Chicago’s very own Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) at DePaul University is making local headlines due to its event to raise awareness about the oppression of Palestinians within Israel’s apartheid walls. Today, Thursday, May 13, DePaul’s SJP is organizing and hosting a “Die In” to commemorate the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians evicted from their homes and forced to face the muzzle of Israeli guns since the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. Sixty-two years later, SJP protests these injustices.
But the “Die In” has evoked a counterprotest by pro-Israeli communities both inside and outside of DePaul’s campus. While SJP continues to plan the logistics of this event, Hillels Around Chicago has just begun circulating a memo in an attempt to denounce the protest. The full statement can be found at the bottom of the post.
A representative of Hillel kindly included her contact information in the memo so I took the liberty of calling her to gain a better understanding of Hillel’s reasoning. She literally echoed the exact words of Hillel’s released statements.
There will be protestors pretending to be shot dead by Israeli soldiers in an effort to delegitimize the state of Israel.
According to her, Hillel felt the need to defend Israel from such biased and provocative pro-Palestinian sentiment. I didn’t quite follow her logic. How would a few actors delegitimize the state of Israel? The protestors aren’t in any way fabricating facts or exaggerating the reality of the situation. Rather, these protestors are providing the public a realistic glimpse of life in the occupied Palestinian territories. Whether Hillel wants to believe it or not, Israeli soldiers do shoot Palestinians. These protestors are only mirroring the scenes that young Palestinian children wake up to. If anything, Israel’s wanton disregard of the livelihood of Palestinians is the direct cause of Israel’s delegitimization. Don’t blame SJP for bringing to Chicago a reality check.
Hillel bases its response on this very basic phrase:
For many of you, this event may be offensive, upsetting or hurtful
Unfortunately, Hillel seems to have forgotten that Israel’s oppression of the Palestinian people has caused even more grief. Every single day, Palestinian sympathizers here and abroad are forced to cope with the never-ending news that more children have been illegally imprisoned without due process, that humanitarian aid has been blocked, and that live ammunition had just torn through a peaceful protest. How is this “Die In” as “offensive, upsetting or hurtful” as Israel’s apartheid measures against the Palestinian people? Israel’s destruction of entire Palestinian villages is “offensive”. The mass murder of entire families – mothers and children included – is “upsetting”. The missiles fired at Palestinian hospitals and schools is “hurtful”. Without a doubt, sixty-two years of illegal oppression causes more pain than a single, peaceful protest.
Hillel, you’ve got it backwards. This event serves as a unified moment of silence for all those who’ve died under Israel’s lack of humanity towards Palestinians. DePaul’s SJP is part of a global movement to commemorate the Nakba. The lady on Hillel’s hotline told me that the Nakba meant “catastrophe”. Correct. She also said that it was an Arab “festivit[y]” to delegitimize and destroy Israel. Wrong. Israeli policy is doing that on its own. The real catastrophe, however, is that 62 years ago, the creation of Israel led to the killing of thousands of Palestinians as well as the mass exodus of hundreds of thousands more.
Read the statement from Hillels Around Chicago after the jump.
Disturbing Anti-Israel Protest at DePaul Student Center Tomorrow
May 12, 2010Dear Members of the Greater DePaul Jewish Community,
In light of the upcoming Palestinian “Die-In” protest tomorrow, it is critical that you be aware of the disturbing events scheduled to take place. Thursday, May 13, from 1-4 pm in the Lincoln Park Student Center at DePaul, there will be protestors pretending to be shot dead by Israeli soldiers in an effort to delegitimize the state of Israel.
For many of you, this event may be offensive, upsetting or hurtful as there will be inflammatory language and literature on display. Please know that we are available to provide you with factual information about the history of and current situation in Israel.
As always, we at Hillel are a resource for you. Please feel free to contact Nick Liebman at nliebman@depaul.edu or Michelle Maer at MichelleMaer@juf.org with any questions or concerns you may have. If you experience intimidation on campus from this event or other events, please let us know. We would also like to hear from you and to understand what your thoughts are.
The Hillel staff will be monitoring the event and available in the Hillel space (2250 N. Sheffield, Room 340) all day tomorrow, so please feel free to reach out to us.
Hillels Around Chicago
312-673-2352
This post originally appeared on the blog Sixteen Minutes to Palestine.
Hillel, you’ve got it backwards. This event serves as a unified moment of silence for all those who’ve died under Israel’s lack of humanity towards Palestinians. DePaul’s SJP is part of a global movement to commemorate the Nakba. The lady on Hillel’s hotline told me that the Nakba meant “catastrophe”. Correct. She also said that it was an Arab “festivit[y]” to delegitimize and destroy Israel. Wrong. Israeli policy is doing that on its own. The real catastrophe, however, is that 62 years ago, the creation of Israel led to the killing of thousands of Palestinians as well as the mass
exodus of hundreds of thousands more.
I always find it ridiculous that Palestinians are not allowed to point out the atrocities that they’ve had to endure so that Israel can thrive as a racist state.
So If I understand you correctly, you think the best way to commemorate the “Nakba” is by having a die in? What a dumb idea! Your “die in ” confirms the average Joe’s belief that Palestinians celebrate death and encourage the cult of death. Nice way to shot yourself in the foot. Hillel is also very stupid to save you by protesting this event. You are doing fine being idiotic all by yourselves already.
>> What a dumb idea!
Yup. The reality of the situation can be conveyed quite effectively using actual photos and video.
>> She also said that it was an Arab “festivit[y]” to delegitimize and destroy Israel.
She forgot to add that it’s not nearly as big as the Holocaust, that “bestest of the best” festivity which, is turns out, has also been a useful tool of delegitimization.
rachel,
You mock commemorating a die in ? What do you think commemorating the Holocaust is?
tsk tsk. amusing rachel says ‘celebrate’, eljay echos hillel’s “festivit[y]” but the holocaust we commemorate. if we reversed that and commemorated the nakba and celebrated the holocaust with a “festivit[y]” we’d be considered anti semitic now wouldn’t we.
whoops, sorry eljay ..you weren’t echoing ..that came out wrong.
Let’s have Hillel sponsor a “Kill In” instead.
I wish this event had made local headlines that I actually could see.
Rachel this is not necessarily about commemorating but speaking the truth about what is going on in israel/palestine, and we all know it is not pretty. So a die-in is actually appropriate. As much as you may dislike this event it is aimed at bringing awareness about the occupation ..and yes death of the palestinians is a part of this occupation.
For many of you, this event may be offensive, upsetting or hurtful
Notice how the Hillel response practically mirrors the theme of Zionist/Jewish opposition to the Berkeley bill. “Don’t silence us! Don’t hurt our feelings and don’t divide our communities.” As if the very social fabric of co-existence in America rests on the case that that promotion of Palestinian rights be suppressed for the in statement of Israel’s legitimacy and the depiction of Israeli brutalities be condemned for Israel’s morality/soul.
Well, if you want to do Hasbara, do it on your time, do it on your own account. Because the world isn’t going to spread your romantic notion of the “only democracy in the ME” for you. The Zionists can live in denial, but they can’t expect others to do the same. So don’t tell me not to hurt your feelings when your beloved state hurts bodies, of children, women and men regularly, for no reason but that they demand their rights on their own land.
Precisely Sherbrsi,
The notion that we must not offend Israeli sensibilities when discussing the plight of the Palestinians (who have been suffering Israeli abuse for more than 60 years) is just ridiculous.
If Israelis are going to continue subjecting Palestinians to a brutal military occupation, apartheid, Jim Crow laws, inhumane medieval sieges, and mass murder, then its only natural that people are going to criticize Israel on its record.
I’m sorry if the pro-Israel crowd is offended by the fact that Israel is an apartheid state engaged in ethnic cleansing.
I socond that, excellent post.
These complaints read like any typical post from Witty. Don ‘t condem, don’t judge, don’t criticize. The fact that their feelings are hurt is because the truth hurts, so anything that makes the truth visible is painful for them.
Of course the real pain is the znciety and fear that comes from knowing that the truth threatens whatever support remains for Israel. Israel’s golden year coincided with international ignorance on the subject – the days when the world believed tbd Arsbs were always attacking, ghat Israel’s existence was at stake and that the Palestinians did what they did without rhyme or reason.
Other than for the presence of Palestinian Jews that had every right to be there, there was really never anything legitimate about Israel from its first day. How could people that went through a holocaust be treating others with so much brutality?
Unfortunately this is common. People who are victimized, flee and then victimize others. This is basically what happend in the “new world”
>> How could people that went through a holocaust be treating others with so much brutality?
I think it’s just a way for “a nation” of people who have suffered long-term exile to help others understand and appreciate just how profound that suffering is. :-)
Walid: How could people that went through a holocaust be treating others with so much brutality?
I hear that a lot and, to tell you the truth, it kind of bugs me. First of all, persecution and victimhood bestow neither wisdom nor virtue. Jews are no better than anyone else, for having suffered.
Second of all, Israelis today (too young, Mizrahim, those who spent the 30s-40s in Palestine, the USSR, US, etc. ) have no direct experience of the Holocaust. They have been initiated into a cult of self-pity, righteous anger and mistrust of outsiders, which certainly employs Holocaust imagery, but in no way entails direct experience of persecution.
In fact, even actual survivors were co-opted into this cult, which channeled their own deprivation, suffering, physical and emotional scars in a very specific way, manipulating and heightening their understandable fears and mistrust of others, rather than helping them to overcome them.
The mythology would have us believe that Israel is a nation of Holocaust survivors, but it is not. It was not founded by survivors, it has used and exploited survivors (eg. Abba Hillel Silver’s objection to the Partition Plan’s call to resettle Jews in the DP camps wherever possible, expropriation of reparations, etc.), and it has never been led by survivors or to the advantage of survivors.
“First of all, persecution and victimhood bestow neither wisdom nor virtue. Jews are no better than anyone else, for having suffered.”
Excellently said.
“How could people that went through a holocaust be treating others with so much brutality?”
There’s an important lesson here for parents, Walid. Make sure to beat your children everyday, and starve them to within an inch of their lives, so they grow up gentle and considerate. Right?
People that go through a holocaust usually (apart from exceptions of great character, which doesn’t include me) usually become brutalised, and impose brutal solutions when they can.
That question has never, ever made sense to me. Where did the idea come from that people who have gone through a holocaust will or should become gentle and compassionate? (Gosh, I wonder- you don’t think….. Nah, couldn’t be… But I think it is. I bet if you look the “We-won’t-be-bad-because-we-have-been-through-the-Holocaust” thing was promulgated by Zionists.)
Sorry, did not see Shmuels excellent answer when I wrote mine.
But that’s the way us prolixtarians are.
The Independent report Haartez have petitioned the high court to gain access to the archives on Deir Yassin Massacre:
“Defending its right to keep the documents under wraps, the Israeli state has argued that their publication would tarnish the country’s image abroad and inflame Arab-Israeli tensions. Ha’aretz and Ms Shoshani have countered that the public have a right to know and confront their past.”
‘A massacre of arabs masked by a state of national amnesia’
link to independent.co.uk
Various eyewitness accounts of Deir Yassin:
link to harmonicminor.com
Yad Vashem and Deir Yassin (‘A view from Yad Vashem’):
link to deiryassin.org
Nakba rememberance is a “festivity”? That was me gagging.
For many of you, this event may be offensive, upsetting or hurtful
Hurtful. Bring out the Hungarian violins for all the Israelis who are hurt by this news. Wrist to forehead.
A teargas canister to the face, that’s upsetting and hurtful Man these people have delicate sensibilities. Say bad stuff, cue the vapors.
pass the smelling salts!
I do declare…
Pass the smelling schmaltz.
Hey buddy, I’m workin’ this side of the street!
Hillel’s tactic, in keeping with Hasbara tradition, is the Spaghetti defense. You throw as much propaganda at the event in hopes that something will stick.
Note, for example, the use of empathic language that would appeal to the gullible, well-meaning, good American:
It’s straight out of the Israeli MoFA’s propaganda handbook.
But, what’s the average American to conclude?
“Wow, I really appreciate Jews looking out for their fellow Americans. Those Palestinians have no shame or decency, no wonder Israel is having such a tough time dealing with these bastards.”
If it were me, I’d say, “Don’t patronize me. Let me hear what they have to say and judge for myself. I’m smart enough to think for myself without a Zionist propagandist shoveling nonsense in my direction”.
If you laughed at the irony, I assure you it wasn’t intentional.
Israeli Anti-Zio Hardcore Band Dir Yassin link to angelfire.com
The massacre at Deir Yassin was ugly, as with all massacres and very sad for the Palestinians. The Jewish terrorists committed the massacre with the intent of spooking the the Palestinian population by making an example of Deir Yassin but the Palestinians committed a big blunder when they tried capitalizing on the massacre to draw the neighbouring Arab countries into their battle against the Jews. The 100 or so actually massacred became over 250 in the Palestinian propaganda and the news spread like wildfire throughout Palestine that the Jews were massacring the Arabs and this spooking helped the Jewish cause more than it helped them in bringing in the Arab armies. Today the Jews deny the horrors they committed at Deir Yassin and the Palestinians are slow to admit their error in having inadvertently helped the Jews spread the word.
Actually, the first ones to claim 254 killed were the Irgun terrorists themselves, in interviews with the New York Times immediately after the massacre.
According to Israeli archives, Zionist agents helped to spread the rumors of larger numbers killed because it helped to frighten the Palestinians. Besides the usual terror campaign involving violence, the Zionists used psychological methods to promote fear in the Palestinians.
Palestinian researchers, many decades later, calculated that, based on the memories of those who lived in the village, slightly more than 100 villagers were killed in the attack, rather than the larger number of 254. As far as I can tell, this is the one incidence where mainstream Zionists have embraced the Palestinian narrative on the subject, and have all eagerly lowered the number killed to this one hundred plus number, rather than the larger Irgun estimate.
Although Deir Yassin was used effectively by the Zionists to promote fear in the Palestinians, it was not enough to create the vast number of Palestinian refugee. The pre-State Zionist armies and the Israeli Army after May 15th found it necessary to commit further massacres, and, in some cases to expel by force.
[Nakba. in memory of atrocities committed by Israelis against Palestinians for 62 years…]
Was it Israelis’ joy to be in constant conflict or aggression against the Palestinian Arabs? Or they Israelis, were simply placed in dire situation they have no other option but to ‘hit back’? When you were surrounded, and attacked several times, and threatened with national extinction what will you do other than defend yourself? The Jews are in extremely uncomfortable situation too; but this pattern of deadly antagonism has been sown already for many decades hence… and the Jews are in constant defensive situation…. Can anyone offer to untangle the conflicting goals with ‘rockbuilt’ surety?
With all these complex nature of conflict, though the ‘zionistic’ government may look ‘fiendish’ to the students, they should be aware at least, that despite of the ambiguity of the crisis, they should be thankful to remain having the privilege of doing freely, than the subject of the ‘die-in’ demonstration themselves…
This is the painful realities between to conflicting peoples that one can never deny……
If you are to choose between two evils, you have no choice but to have evil, your choice becomes only a matter of preference …
This sick deadly charade actually is basically a matter of belief; the belief to have the glory of killing the Jews… and the belief of Jews of killing to have the glory of existing …
So what is the difference? For both sides have been killing each other for so long? Can number makes moral difference?
What is the morality of complaining one group has killed many more times than the other? Does it meant we have to killed more on the opposite side to attain ‘just’ equality of deads?
I am really amazed of the intellect of these intellectual people…
Zamass, you asked: Was it Israelis’ joy to be in constant conflict or aggression against the Palestinian Arabs? Or they Israelis, were simply placed in dire situation they have no other option but to ‘hit back’? When you were surrounded, and attacked several times, and threatened with national extinction what will you do other than defend yourself?
Jews put themselves in that situation when they decided the Palestinians’ country from under them to take it all but the Palestinians were not willing to go along with it. You keep forgetting that part with the endless bullshit talk of Jews fighting for their survival. From the outset of Zionism, the plan was to get rid of the Palestinian Arabs. Read what an Israeli historian had to say about these plans:
Benny Morris, PhD, Professor of History at Ben-Gurion University in Beersheba, Israel, in his 2001 book Righteous Victims, wrote:
“For many Zionists, beginning with Herzl, the only realistic solution lay in transfer…Following the outbreak of 1936 [Arab Revolt], no mainstream leader was able to conceive of future coexistence and peace without a clear physical separation between the two peoples–achievable only by way of transfer and expulsion…
Moreover, transfer was seen as a highly moral solution. The Zionist leaders felt that the Jews’ need for a country with empty spaces able to absorb future immigrants morally outweighed the rights of the indigenous Arabs–who were no different than their brothers across the Jordan or Litani [Rivers] and could relocate there with relative ease if the transfer was well compensated and well organized…separation was preferable to an intermingling, which could only end in a bloodbath.
Transfer would best be accomplished ‘voluntarily.’ But Palestine’s Arabs did not wish to evacuate the land of their ancestors, and they made this very clear. Moreover, neither the Ottoman Turks nor the British were of a mind to clear out the local population to make room for the Jews. The matter raised ethical questions that troubled the Yishuv [Jewish community of British Mandate Palestine] from within and inspired opposition to Zionism from without. Yet transfer, however problematic or cruel, offered a way out of the demographic dilemma, and it was sporadically given an airing.”
[Moreover, transfer was seen as a highly moral solution. The Zionist leaders felt that the Jews’ need for a country with empty spaces able to absorb future immigrants morally outweighed the rights of the indigenous Arabs–who were no different than their brothers across the Jordan or Litani [Rivers] and could relocate there with relative ease if the transfer was well compensated and well organized…separation was preferable to an intermingling, which could only end in a bloodbath.]
[Yet transfer, however problematic or cruel, offered a way out of the demographic dilemma, and it was sporadically given an airing.”]
I could agree more to these assessments… These could have been better take off points where they Jews and Arabs may have discussed and settled conflicts before moving forward to other options…
[Moreover, neither the Ottoman Turks nor the British were of a mind to clear out the local population to make room for the Jews.]
Sad to say, the Brits may have also shared the factors initiating the conflict… But we cannot blame the Brits inasmuch as their resolutions may have been laid out with good intents…
[Transfer would best be accomplished ‘voluntarily.’ But Palestine’s Arabs did not wish to evacuate the land of their ancestors, and they made this very clear.]
This disagreement could have been the ‘critical point’ that placed the Jews at the fatal cross-roads… Considering time is unfriendly to them… Had this point been addressed mutually at the start, the fate of two people may have been different… Now the history of conflicts has overtaken the fateful events …
By the way, thanks Walid for such infos…
On the other hand, this refusal by the Palestinians to vacate their lands maybe complex in context, as religious views could have also helped muddled the contentions.
As a follow up assessment of the root of conflict, I found out my understanding is parallel to the view of a renown Jewish historian Benny Morris; that the competition for the same territory was only an ‘icing on a cake’ but the real engine of conflict is the teachings of Islamic faith that encourages violence as a moral and religious recourse. This societal backdrop may have ultimately settled the eventual direction towards this tragedy. I strongly believe without such preemptive polarization, mutual understandings could have been easily found:
[Morris has called the Israel-Palestinian conflict a facet of a global clash of civilizations between Islamic fundamentalism and the Western World, saying, "There is a deep problem in Islam. It's a world whose values are different. A world in which human life doesn't have the same value as it does in the West, in which freedom, democracy, openness and creativity are alien.[3] He also says “Revenge plays a central part in the Arab tribal culture. Therefore, the people we are fighting and the society that sends them have no moral inhibitions.”[3]
When a Haaretz interviewer called the 1948 Palestinian exodus “ethnic cleansing,” Morris responded that “[t]here are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide—the annihilation of your people—I prefer ethnic cleansing.”[3]
Morris endorses the creation of a Palestinian state, as reducing the urge for violence against Israelis. But he thinks Israel needs take measures to protect her citizens in the meantime:
“We have to try to heal the Palestinians. Maybe over the years the establishment of a Palestinian state will help in the healing process. But in the meantime, until the medicine is found, they have to be contained so that they will not succeed in murdering us.
“Something like a cage has to be built for them. I know that sounds terrible. It is really cruel. But there is no choice. There is a wild animal there that has to be locked up in one way or another.”.
In the end, he says, the Jews, in their restored existence as a national state, are the greater victims, past and potential:
“…that’s so for the Jewish people, not the Palestinians. A people that suffered for 2,000 years, that went through the Holocaust, arrives at its patrimony but is thrust into a renewed round of bloodshed, that is perhaps the road to annihilation. In terms of cosmic justice, that’s terrible. It’s far more shocking than what happened in 1948 to a small part of the Arab nation that was then in Palestine.”
“…We are the greater victims in the course of history and we are also the greater potential victim. Even though we are oppressing the Palestinians, we are the weaker side here. We are a small minority in a large sea of hostile Arabs who want to eliminate us. So it’s possible than when their desire is realized, everyone will understand what I am saying to you now. Everyone will understand we are the true victims. But by then it will be too late.”
(Wikipedia. Benny Morris. )]
It is now clear that the conflict was a matter of lost opportunity for peaceful resolution. The crucial chance was simply allowed to passed-over, lost through pre-conceived apathy. At present the ethnic polarization has been solidified and made irreversible by culture of retributions, pattern of antagonism, casted by this religious faith that promotes hatred and violence….
In fact, the evidence of massacres such as made by the Jews, if one should take note these happened on 1947-48. This was at the period of the Arab-Israeli Civil War. This war is consequential to the termination of the British Mandate; It was such a positional and tactical war for territorial dominance and control. Thus, the historical assessment of Benny Morris could have been correct… The tragic cost however, was lives of innocent people…
The two state solution on this bases, would only concretize the partial satisfaction of both groups in terms of conceived territorial rights, nationalism, and history… This further implies there could be no true lasting nor permanent peace… as every one only waits for the opportunity to strike first, and reclaim the lost ‘right’… Sad to say, the two-state solution is a far cry from the pursued permanent peace. And as far as the protraction of conflict is concerned, the die is cast…
Zamaaz, lost opportunity had nothing to do with it; the Jews wanted to steal all the land and the Palestinian Arabs didn’t accept this idea and chose to resist it and lost. You don’t have to be an Einstein to understand this.
There was nothing moral about it either even if the Zionist leaders felt that the Jews’ need for a country with empty spaces able to absorb future immigrants morally outweighed the rights of the indigenous Arabs. It gives us an idea about the morals of the Zionists starting with the super thief Herzl. To use your cockeyed way of thinking, one could say that the Germans needed to have the Jews out of the way and they chose the most moral way of going about it.
The redeeming element in the quote by Benny Morris is that it acknowledges that there had been indigenous inhabitants on the land, that Herzl himself had transfer of the Palestinian Arabs on the brain and that the plan extended to across the Litani in Lebanon, 3 things that Israelis continue denying to this day. Was there something like Sunday School for Jews where you guys picked up all the bogus history about the history of the Jews in Palestine that you keep repeating?
By the way, thanks Walid for such infos… (Zamaaz)
Stick around and keep an open mind and you’ll learnh things your mama never told you.
“Morris has called the Israel-Palestinian conflict a facet of a global clash of civilizations between Islamic fundamentalism and the Western World,…”
From the early 1600s when we began our long march across the north American continent until the early 1900s, until we finally exterminated or corralled all the brutes, on any given Sunday morning one could hear the essence of Morris’s and by extension Zamaaz’s being preached from pulpits throughout the land. Protecting the brave pioneers on the frontier (many were my forefathers) from the hostiles justified the standing army we maintained during “peacetime.” We colonized the continent, politicians proclaimed that this was our manifest destiny.
By whatever name one may choose to call it, or by whatever rationale one uses to justify it, the cause of the Israeli-Palestinian is the continuation of the Zionist colonization project. In Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s words, “We shall trace the root of the evil to this – that we are seeking to colonise a country against the wishes of its population, in other words, by force. Everything else that is undesirable grows out of this root with axiomatic inevitability.”
zamaaz, you don’t know how much your comments make me wish we were having this debate face-to-face. Or rather, hadn-to-hand.
You suck. I don’t know who did what to you, but they did a hell of a job. You have the ethics and morals of a cheerful malignant tumor.
“Sad to say, the two-state solution is a far cry from the pursued permanent peace. And as far as the protraction of conflict is concerned, the die is cast…”
In other words, there is nothing about a 2 state solution mentioned on the Bible, and therefore you reject the possibility of one.
“On the other hand, this refusal by the Palestinians to vacate their lands maybe complex in context, as religious views could have also helped muddled the contentions.”
Hey youfascist imbecile. Since whenhave any opulstion willingly vacated their land? You’re so intoxicated with the advent of the rapture, you can’t think straight.
“Was it Israelis’ joy to be in constant conflict or aggression against the Palestinian Arabs? Or they Israelis, were simply placed in dire situation they have no other option but to ‘hit back’?”
zamaaz – the answer is YES, it was Israels joy.
60% of Israel’s casualties in the 1948 wars were inside the Palestinian area of the UN Partition – ie. in offensive not defensive action. The “dire situation” was of Israels own making. Despite occasional overblown rhetoric Israel was never in danger of “national extinction”.
Jews [Israelis] are not in constant defensive situations. In all of her wars except 1948 Israel has been the aggressor – and Sadat warned for two years prior to 1973 he would attack to regain Egypt’s occupied territory, Sinai. Israel had the choice to give it back but refused, instead building settlements like Yamit in the north east of Sinai.
Israel looks fiendish, because Israel is fiendish. We ain’t fooled by your “ain breira” (no choice) explanation.
Tree, I wasn’t implying that Deir Yassin was the one and only massacre by the Jews, there were countless others and even more vicious. I was pointing out that the Palestinians inadvertently helped spread the fear which played into the hands of the Jews. Here’s a list of the massacres:
link to guardian.150m.com
Walid,
I did not think you were implying anything with your post. Sorry if it came off that way. My point was mainly to clarify that the original number of victims came from the Irgun, and they were the first to exaggerate the numbers, and that these numbers were taken as accurate until the Palestinian research in the late ’80s came up with the smaller number.
As an aside, I personally think that in retrospect too much blame for the for the Palestinian exodus is placed on Deir Yassin, probably because it is the only massacre that got widespread coverage in the Western press. The time period during which Deir Yassin happened was witness to numerous attacks on Arab villages and towns, including Jaffa, Haifa and Tiberias, and many had already fled the fighting or been driven out of their homes and lands prior to Deir Yassin. Also, from what I have read, Israel’s refusal to let the refugees return to their homes in the lands conquered by Israel led many Palestinians in the later part of 1948 to cling more tightly to their homes and lands, knowing that if they abandoned them they would not be allowed to return. This explains the greater number of massacres (mostly unknown in the West) and outright expulsions that took place in the second half of 1948.
Yes, Deir Yassin rumors were sometimes exaggerated by both sides for their own propaganda purposes, but within the conflict its significance is often overemphasized. With or without Deir Yassin, the intent and actions of Israel, and its overwhelming superiority of force in the conflict, were destined to lead to the Nakba.
(And let me add that I did not assume that you are necesarily in disagreement with me on this issue. I’m not using your post as a point of disagreement with me, but as a jumping off point to bring up a related issue that concerns me.
Delegitimize Israel? If this Nakba commemoration causes any person (say a Hillel member) to feel that Israel is no longer (or never was) “legitimate”, or causes anyone else to feel that way, well, fine. that’s what FREE SPEECH is all about.
If it merely causes people to conclude that the occupation is illegitimate (for which position a strong case can be made), well that is even better.
Hillels are saying, “forget the truth and consider our tender feelings.” Phooey.
If they accuse the Nakba presenters of telling lies, their comeback is evident — tell truth to overcome the lies.
>> If they accuse the Nakba presenters of telling lies, their comeback is evident — tell truth to overcome the lies.
Or make the “better argument” and shower the Nakba presenters with green yard and regale them with poetry. :-)
link to news.bbc.co.uk
.
relevant story on bbc now
A 14-year-old Palestinian boy has been shot dead in the West Bank.
Palestinian witnesses and security sources say the teenager was shot by Jewish settlers after rocks were thrown at their car.
Israeli police are investigating but did not confirm that the boy, named as Ayssar Yasser from the village of Mizra al-Sharqiah, had been shot by settlers.
The Israeli army confirmed there was a shooting in the area, near Ramallah, the West Bank’s administrative capital.
It’s extraordinary and nutty. Some Jews are so besotted with themselves the notion that they may have made a mistake does not, cannot be considered. It makes them look like creepy cultists.
They are, Kapok, they don’t just look it.
The haredi don’t look like creepy cultists?
Walid rebuked.
www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/674327/posts
Deir Yassin: History of a Lie
Walid says, How could people that went through a holocaust be treating others with so much brutality?
Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that at the conclusion of 1948 hostilities, not a single Jew was left alive on the West Bank or East Jerusalem. All murdered or deported. So which side is guilty of ethnic cleansing?
I didn’t even mention 99% of the Jews were forced from the Arab countries in the late 40s early 50s.
The Arabs continually initiate the violence.
The Israelis have not fired the first shots.
Do the Palestinians expect not to be fired back on?
Its ok for them to blow up school children and civilians intentionally?
Please explain to me, how the Israelis could possibly live next to such a violent people. I personally don’t see how it can be done at this point.
All I see is the Palestinians provoking war and using any method they can to get all of Israel.
The Palestinians have been offered a state 5 times. Peel commision, The Woodhead Commission, 48, 2000, 2008.
They refused to end the conflict as long as it meant that they would have to accept the legitimacy of Israel as a sovereign, permanent country and neighbor. Only when the Palestinians extremist/rejectionist/supremacist attitude changes will peace really be possible.
“Only when the Palestinians extremist/rejectionist/supremacist attitude changes will peace really be possible”
Is that like “maximalism”. Witty is very big on “maximalism”.
Say, by the way Shamir, do you know Witty? You two guys should get to gether and unify your hasbara, you know. Get the old unities and verities in synch.
Walid again is rebuked.
link to palestinefacts.org
link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org
Wow, somehow you just left a link instead of spamming an entire bullshit article. Wonder of wonders, miracle of miracles!
Yes-sir-ree bob, with guys like Shamir pulling their, I mean pulling for Zionism, could it possibly fail?
Shamir again is rebuked.
“http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_refugees_arabs_why.php”
Debunkled by Benny Morrs, Illan Pape, and Ton Segev.
‘Whatever the reasoning and attitude of the Arab states’ leaders, I have found no contemporary evidence to show that either the leaders of the Arab states or the Mufti [Hajj Amin al-Husseini] ordered or directly encouraged the mass exodus during April [1948]. It may be worth noting that for decades the policy of the Palestinian Arab leaders had been to hold fast to the soil of Palestine and to resist the eviction and displacement of Arab communities’. (Benny Morris, p. 66)
Farther proof of ethnic cleansing (as if more evidence is needed) comes from Glubb Pasha, the British officer of the Jordanian army during the 1948 war, was on the spot at the time and therefore was in a position to know what is going on. He said:
“The story which Jewish publicity at first persuaded the world to accept , that the [Palestinian] Arab refugees left voluntarily, is not true. Voluntary emigrants do not leave their homes with only the clothes they stand in. People who decided to leave house do not do so in such a hurry that they lose other members of their family — husband losing sight of his wife, or parents of their children. The fact is that the majority left in panic flight, to escape massacre. They were in fact helped on their way by the occasional massacres–not of very many at a time, but just enough to keep them running.” (Bitter Harvest, p. 95)
“http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/refugees.html
That has long been been denbunked.
link to haaretz.com
FreeRepublic? Really?
“FreeRepublic? Really?”
If he scraped the bottom of that barrel any more, he’d probably strike oil .