Depending on ones view of Israel, the deaths that occurred on the decks of the Mavi Marmara early today are either reprehensible, tragic, regrettable, or — a cause for celebration.
Someone just wrote to me: “Too bad you weren’t on that ship with the rest of the terror supporters. Anyone touching an IDF soldier deserves what they got.”
I know people in J Street who would find such sentiments deeply offensive; who would assure me that when they say they are pro-Israel it does not in any sense mean that they condone the actions of this Israeli government or the kind of red-blooded xenophobic Zionism that believes the IDF can do no wrong.
Yet the question I would pose to anyone who says they are pro-Israel is this: is the Israel you support the one that exists in 2010, or does it have a firmer foothold somewhere inside your imagination?
Which is the real Israel? The Israel cherished and trumpeted at an AIPAC convention? The Israel struggling to be defined at a J Street gathering? Or the Israel triumphantly being celebrated from the hilltops above Ashdod today?
This is how The Guardian describes the scene there and however representative these particular flag-clad Israelis might actually be, their claim to be pro-Israel has a distinction that many of their American counterparts lack: they are Israelis, they live in Israel and they are not on the political fringe.
If one was to describe a constellation that linked the IDF soldiers to either their flag-waving brethren or their more conflicted American cousins, the closest ties would surely coincide with geographical proximity.
[Above the Israeli port of Ashdod as the ships of the Freedom Flotilla were towed in] Jonah’s Hill itself was heaving. Shirtless Israeli men draped in their national flag waved placards declaring “Well done IDF” in both Hebrew and English, chanting, singing and applauding their support for the military operation.
Thick cables snaked across the ground from thrumming generators, delivering power to dozens of international TV crews, broadcasting across the globe against the backdrop of the shimmering Mediterranean.
Amid the crowd, a sophisticated public relations operation was underway. Spinners and spokesmen from the Israeli military and government departments politely answered questions and offered their own narrative of the day’s events. A barrage of emails and text message alerts firing into inboxes provided a background of electronic muzak.
Shahar Arieli, deputy spokesman for the ministry of foreign affairs, wearing a smart tie despite the heat, said two of the flotilla’s boats had been brought into port.
All activists would be offered the chance of immediate deportation at Israel’s expense “with their passports”, he said. “We want them to leave as soon as possible,” he added.
Those who declined would – “as long as they weren’t involved in attacks on our troops” – be processed through Israel’s justice system.
His patient courtesy was not matched by all those gathered on the hill. Chaim Cohen, a 52-year-old economic consultant from Givatayim, was dripping with both sweat and bile. “We have come to support our soldiers. It is obvious it [the Mavi Marmara] is a terrorist ship. We saw it on TV – they took out knives and put them in the stomachs of the IDF.”
There was nothing to challenge the Israeli version of events. Repeated attempts to reach the cell and satellite phones of activists on board the flotilla were rebuffed; it was unclear whether their phones had been confiscated, jammed or if they were simply out of range.
By late afternoon on Monday, activists with lesser injuries were being brought to hospitals in coastal towns and cities from the smaller passenger ships. At the Barzilai medical centre in Ashkelon, just north of the Gaza Strip, a Greek man in a neck brace told reporters: “They hit me.” Who? “Pirates,” he answered.
A dazed man with a striking black eye was unloaded from an ambulance. There had been “some brutality” on board, he said, but the activists were non-violent. “We are all Palestinian now,” he said as the doors of the ER closed behind him.
link to youtube.com
RE: “the Israeli national will”
FROM WIKIPEDIA: Triumph of the Will (German: Triumph des Willens) is a propaganda film made by Leni Riefenstahl…The overriding theme of the film is the return of Germany as a great power, with Hitler as the True German Leader who will bring glory to the nation…
SOURCE – link to en.wikipedia.org
JPEG IMAGE – link to mmimageslarge.moviemail-online.co.uk
We cannot influence the government or media but we can exclude Israel’s Apologists from our lives. If encountered at Trader Joe’s, the PTA, the dog park, wherever, in the words of David Frum “We turn our backs to them”. No kids birthday parties, no dinner invitations – cut all ties. No discussions, no explanations.
“We turn our backs on them”
Frivolous but social status is the zionist’s Achille’s Heel. More effective than holding a sign at the Israeli embassy.
Paul Woodward- There is obviously more than one Israel and it includes supporters of Likud who were obviously encouraged to come to Ashdod for that demonstration and also leftists who demonstrated elsewhere against the attack on the flotilla. Which is the real Israel? I would say both. And I would say neither. (I guess we can wait to see what the polls say as the answer to the question, Do you support the IDF attacking those who wished to give support to Hamas? Or alternatively if the question is posed: Do you think the IDF could have used smarter method to disable the ship without the loss of life, would you have supported that instead?)
“… Do you support the IDF attacking those who wished to give support to Hamas? ”
Wondering Jew, you appear more embarrassed by Israel for having shown its dirty underwear than upset at what it actually did. It’s doubtful any of the 600 activists had the support of Hamas on their mind when they got on this voyage.
I was responding to the article by Paul Woodward. I was choosing the phrasing of questions that would be posed by pollsters in order to elicit the greatest number of yes responses.
Here is my own “policy”. Israel should negotiate with Hamas an end to the siege and if that is not possible it should end the siege and figure out how to deal with the situation as it develops. (This has been my position since January of 2009, in the aftermath of the attack on Gaza.)
This obviously would avoid attacking the flotilla, for it would mean that there would be no need for a flotilla.
The siege is there because the inner cabinet of Netanyahu believes that there is some practical or moral stand that is achieved by putting pressure on Hamas or on the Gazan people in order to remove Hamas. There is a logic there, but I don’t see it succeeding.
I am upset about the IDF being stupid and inefficient. The actual acts of the soldiers shooting I accept as necessary given the stupidity of their commanders sending them into a situation like that. I assume it was stupidity rather than blood thirst. The commanders who chose this mode of attack rather than disabling the propeller either committed murder by choosing this mode of attack or their stupidity led to the loss of life (which I guess is something closer to manslaughter rather than murder.)
WJ :“There is a logic there, but I don’t see it succeeding.”"I am upset about the IDF being stupid and inefficient.”"The actual acts of the soldiers shooting I accept as necessary given the stupidity of their commanders sending them into a situation like that.”Really, what is this logic? And if it could succeed, would you support it? Are criminal and murderous acts more acceptable if they’re carried out deftly?
So, who are the commanders that “sent them into action”, and would you support them being brought to trial?
What you’re basically saying is that the actions carried out had benevolent intentions, and that no one is really responsible. Very gutless.
lareineblanche-
I don’t think that all members of Hamas are evil (so much more so everyone who voted for them), but many of them are evil and although I support talking to them, I understand the reaction of those who oppose negotiating with them. The desire to remove them from power makes sense to me. (I don’t think it is possible, but the desire to achieve this makes sense.) That is the basis of my understanding of the logic of those who believe that acts of violence against Hamas and acts of deprivation against the population that supports Hamas. That is the logic.
I think the flotilla could have been disabled without killing anybody. So although there would have been criminal acts involved, there would not have been murderous acts involved.
I do not support putting the commanders on trial, (unless they purposely chose this path of disabling the flotilla with the desire to cause deaths over a path that would have avoided the loss of life). I believe in removing them from their command or from their office.
I believe choosing of this method that led to deaths could have been avoided, should have been avoided and those who made the choice of this method are responsible.
1. Ending the siege has nothing to do with “negotiating with Hamas” – Hamas has nothing to do with it. And what gives you or Israel the right to think of removing from power an elected government? Or are you talking about the armed, more radical wing of Hamas?“acts of deprivation against the population that supports Hamas” – this is called a crime against a civilian population, for decent people.2. “I think the flotilla could have been disabled without killing anybody.”Why disable the flotilla?3. Commanders who knowingly sent these goons to rappel down to the ship obviously knew that the outcome was not going to be peaceful. They are guilty, and should be tried in a court of law, preferably in Turkey.4. Your “logic” isn’t.
Why should the Flotilla be disabled in the first place? You’re a fucking Nazi, WJ.
Thanks for the 2 cents. Your ‘opinion’ is always enlightening.
BRAVO, “there is logic there”, please elaborate for us Einstein.
We should not fight the Israeli legal declarations concerning the flotilla. The world should USE the new definitions. Other countries should say that they agree completely that israel has the right to attack a civilian vessel in international waters. It therefore follows that everyone else has a perfect right to attack israeli vessels wherever they may be found. Attack them and murder the occupants. If it’s legal, then it’s legal. We shouldn’t argue with Israel, we should use their definition of the law to imprison them in the Jewish rathole they have created and attack them the moment they emerge into international waters or attempt to pollute any other country with their presence.
Paul Woodward- The attack was carried out by IDF soldiers, but it was Barak or Ashkenazi or someone slightly lower down who decided to use this specific mode of attack, rather than the more sensible attack on the propeller of the ship which would have left the ship in the water and given some international agency the opportunity to save the marooned passengers.
(Once the political decision was reached by Netanyahu and his cabinet to stop the flotilla, then it was the higher ups in the IDF who were in charge of figuring out the best way to stop the flotilla. They failed in that task. For the flotilla could have been stopped without a loss of life.)
It’s ok. Wondering Chew.
Your freedom of speech will not be curtailed. C’mon, join the Israeli chorus….”Am Yisrael, Am Yisrael, Am Yisrael Chai, Am Yisrael, Am….”
And let’s not forget:
“Mavet La-Aravim, Mavet La-Aravim”
if people want a legal pretext for exacting justice upon israel it would follow that the entire israeli cabinet could be rounded up, arrested, and put on trial for war-crimes … they met for a solid week prior to authorizing this nighttime commando raid with automatic weapons against unarmed sleeping civilian peace activists … as Finkelstein says, israel has shown itself not to just be acting like a lunatic state but to actually be one … the israeli gov’t can be arrested, the UN occupies the country, a transitional government is imposed (probably by America) and they are compelled into a two-state solution and given back their government once the walls and checkpoints are down, roads are open and nukes disarmed
I suspect it will be a case of the UN authorising America to use troops to maintain control as the Turks, Hizbullah,Syria and Egypt withdraw their forces from the smouldering ashpile of crushed dreams, hopefully before Leiberman gets to play with the button .
Ethnic Utopia -nil, reality -three
radii, I like it.
but I fear the more likely outcome is a return to business as usual, just as predicted by a DKos poster.
actually, that’s not my worst fear.
what I really think will happen is Israel will start a war with Syria or Turkey or Lebanon or Iran.
i’d put money on it.
been thinking about Nixon & the “saturday night massacres,” for no discernible reason/connection. Where are the bold statesmen?
will Obama order Rahm to fire Hillary and Ross? Will Rahm refuse? Will Paneta step into the breach? Who will take over State Dept? Is there any institutional memory at State that is not thoroughly Israelist?
Regime change imposed upon Israel by the US!! How delicious would that irony be?
I think that identifying who which Israel is the real Israel is a spurious question. Israel chose who and what it was going to be years ago, by its initial actions and its current course. Those who are in government as representatives were chosen by the people, they represent Israel, and it was not just the settlers that put them into power. I think Israel identified itself recently when polled, that over 90% of them opted for the massacre in Gaza. Israel chooses to be what it wants to be by official activity, which not only is seen by what it does to its neighbors and how it treats the Palestinians in occupied territory, but how it makes its Palestinian population live as last class “citizens.” One could wax eloquent about its technological prowess, its cultural contributions, but the bottom line is in its treatment of humanity, and when that is trly where the rubber meets the road.
entirely agree. Where is there any confusion about what the “real” israel is? Israel has been one of the most consistent states on earth. It has not undergone any meaningful evolution since its founding. It is also one of the most homogeneous societies on earth. 99 % are rabid racists, militarist goons. The leadership, whether likud or labor, have been engaged in an unbroken program of ethnic cleansing, land theft, massacre and violence. Where is the great mystery of Israel’s identity? It’s about as transparent as you can get and every day, we see new confirmation of this identity, as in their attack on unarmed humanitarian aid workers.
Perfectly consistent. No contradiction whatsoever.
They are as you say, rabid racists and militarist goons.
Speaking of Israeli warmongering, on Sunday the Israeli terrorfliegers invaded Lebanese airspace to carry out a mock raid.
link to maannews.net
This is purely an act of terrorism, threatening the Lebanese civilian population by reminding them of past Israeli aggression. And if, one day, the Lebanese manage to shoot down one of these warcraft, Israel will undoubtedly accuse the Lebanese of attacking them.
This is an entire nation of paranoids that ought to be disarmed for the sake of world peace.
thank you. Yes. Israel Must Be Disarmed. for its own good and for the sake of the region, the US, and the world.
Next time, the Palestinians should make it clear that if the Israelis touch anyone on the next aid flotilla or attempt to interfere with it in any way, they are going to torture Gilad Shalit and then execute him. It will be on Israel’s conscience. That’s the way to deal with these filth.
Hamas has had to house and feed this IDF monster for months. It’s high time they got some political mileage out of him.
This is too over the top to be completely believable. I’ve seen a few people defend Hamas violence, but you’re just posting right and left. Maybe you are as bloodthirsty as you sound, or maybe you’re faking it.
A few days ago I said it’d be nice to have some crazed person defending atrocities on the Palestinian side just to balance the creeps we have defending atrocities on the Israeli side. Should be careful what I wish for, I guess. Still, you do serve one purpose–you demonstrate that most of the rest of us really are morally consistent in opposing violence against civilians.
Gilad Shalit is not a civilian. He’s an IDF criminal. He needs to be put on trial for his role in the Gaza massacre and he needs to be executed.
Nothing bloodthirsty about it. It’s called the law.
International Law, Hamas Law or Zionist Law of the Jungle ?
War crimes of the sort committed by Shalit and his venomous crew are pretty much universally recognized as war crimes and carry severe penalty. In the US, that means the death penalty under our own war crimes act, signed into law by a republican congress.
As Chomsky correctly observes, “if the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged.”
what crimes did Shalit commit GC? hatred along with irrational thought and behavior are understandable at a time like this, but if you aren’t just letting off steam, can you explain what he is responsible for? other than being born to a family, whose country has a mandatory draft?
however, yonira, as Professor Qumsiyeh pointed out to Israeli soldiers, Israel provides an ‘opt out’ — a soldier may choose NOT to serve in ways that violate his conscience.
link to mondoweiss.net
The memory of Nuremberg demands that Israeli soldiers refuse to serve in ways that violate their conscience, Qumsiyeh said.
so by serving in the IDF, he is automatically a war criminal and responsible for all Israeli actions?? were all Nazi soldiers hanged following Nuremburg?
Conscientious Jews refused to serve in the territories and condemned Israel’s disgusting policies in courageously forceful language. The vermin of israel imprisoned them and subjected them to all manner of indignity for the crime of being human beings and not scum. They are the heroes.
To the rest of the IDF, Shalit included—these monsters who shoot old women and drop phosphorus on schools –death. They need to be exterminated. All of them.
I don’t know that Shalit personally committed war crimes. It’s illegal to simply execute a captured soldier.
no yonira, don’t twist words.
IDF soldiers have the option to refuse to follow orders that offend their conscience. Qumsiyeh urged them to realize that since they have that option, they have an obligation to make a moral choice, they cannot passively do what they’re told and rely on “just following orders” to justify their behavior.
I don’t know that Shalit personally committed war crimes. It’s illegal to simply execute a captured soldier.
Torture too is illegal. He certainly didn’t participate in the Gaza massacre, as GodsChosen asserted, because he was already a prisoner in Gaza, protected by his captors from Israeli bombs and white phosphorous.
Thanks, Donald. Sane and consistent as always.
Revealed: Execution list recovered from an IDF commando
Israel fucked up, once again. There is no question about that. There were a thousand ways to deal with the the flotilla, including letting it through. Hopefully this will be a catalyst for some major changes in the peace process, it wouldn’t be the first Israeli fuck up to bring some real change.
Atheist, what you posted is ridiculous. There are videos showing these soldiers boarding the boats with paintball guns (those of you that don’t paintball there is a canister on top which holds the paintballs, this was obvious to me in more than of the the pictures) I guess I will believe it when I see the list, but until then, i am calling BS.
This was a huge blunder on Israel’s part, you’ll get all of the negative press you can possibly handle, I don’t understand how making up stories about it would make this any more of a goldmine than it already is.
“There are videos showing these soldiers boarding the boats with paintball guns ”
I don’t feel like laughing but hahaha all the same. Can you tell me how it’s possible to kill 19 and injure 80 with paintball guns?
read the reports atheist, i am not going to get in a back and forth with you, it is stupid. watch the videos, read the reports, come to your own conclusions. obviously you think that this was an israeli commando hit to start a nuclear war with Iran, that is fine with me.
Don’t want to sound like a prick, but have you seen any video evidence or any corroboration reports about this hitlist? so basically one of these soldiers had it in his pocket?
yonira
I do not guarantee the authenticity of that list. Do you guarantee the paintball guns ? You didn’t answer my question. How do you kill 19 with paintball guns?
Yonira,
Do the Palestinians also get to do “fuckups” and “blunders”, or are they always bloodthirsty terrorists, no matter what?
They murdered 10-20 people with paint ball guns.
Yet the “automatic weapons” carried by the “terrorists” failed to kill a single israeli pig.
Yeah. that’s about as credible as the rest of your vomit.
i haven’t seen any claims that the activists were carrying automatic weapons. at this time we should try to relay only the facts.
how pious you try to sound yonira. i’m so impressed. really. i am.
blech
this is a time of serious discourse and debate, with the media blackout I would like to keep it civilized and learn more about the situation.
What part of “the filth of Israel committed another massacre of innocent civilians” do you not get, yonira?
Does someone need to capture an israeli civilian vessel and massacre its crew for you do comprehend this?
I don’t think the whole crew was massacred, I know there is a media blackout, so I could be wrong, but with the uncertainty of the events i don’t think saying the whole crew was massacred is honest.
That’s your excuse, eh? That Israel didn’t massacre EVERYONE.
Great. I hope the next attack on Israel leaves a few survivors too. I really hope so.
I hope a lot of them lose an eye, like the poor girl your friends just blinded for daring to peacefully protest their actions.
link to palsolidarity.org
I hope a LOT of Israelis are blinded.
Soon.
“i don’t think saying the whole crew was massacred is honest.”
but saying, over and over and over and over and over and over that “Arabs want to exterminate all Jews;” “Iran said they will wipe Israel off the map,”
that’s honest.
you should change your tag to Janus.
I don’t want them to be blinded, I want them to see the light.