The New Yorker's expert on human rights in Gaza is interviewed by Terry Gross on Fresh Air, alongside Ali Abunimah and John Mearsheimer. I'm sorry, that was a joke: the Abunimah and Mearsheimer. When it comes to Israel, the adventurous Gross can't leave her comfort zone.
Notice how much play Fresh Air gives to the Shalit angle on its site. Grotesque. The relentless focus on Gilad Shalit-- as 1.5 million Palestinians live in another type of imprisonment in Gaza, and 10,000 Palestinians are imprisoned inside Israel-- reminds me of the savage line in Huckleberry Finn, when Huck tells Aunt Sally about an explosion on a steamboat.
“Good gracious! anybody hurt?”
“No'm. Killed a nigger.”
Compare to Tony Karon's piece at Time Mag on possible lifting of blockade; he mentions Shalit only in passing, and not in the context of the blockade itself, whose political implications are far more significant to him.
Noam Shalit is the model for this grotesqueness. He really thinks the plight of his own kid is equivalent to imprisoning an entire nation of millions.
In a way, Shalit reminds me of “liberal zionism.” The real hardliners are perfectly willing to let G Shalit rot with the rest of the residents of Gaza, although they’d really prefer a commando raid or bombing where he’s killed along with hundreds of Palestinians.
End of hostage problem.
Agreed. I tried, triiiied to have a tiny bit of compassion for him as a father who misses his son. But his arrogance, racism, and grotesque inconsiderate views on millions of people in Gaza prevent me from seeing him as anything else than other Lieberman.
Gilad Shalit in perspective:
1) 1000′s of Palestinians are in Israeli jails, many of them are women, children, and in some cases infants. Many of them have never been charged with a crime, and most of them are not serving sentences for violent crimes.
2) Shalit is a POW, he wasn’t in his bed sleeping when a grip of dudes from the Al Qassam brigade broke into his house, shot his mom, and hauled off into an undisclosed location in the Gaza strip.
Nope, Gilad Shalit was pulled out of his tank while serving as a soldier enforcing a brutal military occupation that has been ongoing for decades.
How many Palestinians have the Israelis pulled out of a tank while enforcing a military occupation of merely a square inch of Israel?
James, your perspective is much needed. I think one would be perfectly reasonable to sympathize with this young man and his family during this ordeal, but enormously hypocritical to ignore the infinitely greater suffering imposed on Palestinians. Shalit was just a kid who, like every other kid he grew up with, joined the IDF when he came of age, and followed the orders he was given. But for precisely the same conduct, a Palestinian would be considered a legitimate target not for capture but for death. Moreover, the Israeli kid is assigned the task of enforcing a cruel and illegal military occupation, while the Palestinian kid is fighting for his freedom. The difference of course is one of power. Israel, as the far more powerful entity, has much more influence on what conduct is defined as legitimate and what is not.
Indeed, had Israel allowed in all civilian goods but kept out anything that could be used to make rockets, it would have been considered reasonable and undeserving of criticism from the rest of the world. But Israel is of course allowed to develop and import military technology that is immensely more powerful, and no one bats an eye at this imbalance. Even its reason for keeping out cement — it could be used for bunkers — is OK because it is a given that no one should be able to protect himself from Israeli attack. Israelis should be allowed to kill anyone it targets, and it is considered an offensive maneuver to protect oneself.
The list of double standards is virtually endless.
David Samel, thank you for the comment, your insight is always appreciated by me.
However, I should have mentioned that I do feel a great deal of sympathy for Gilad Shalit. This is despite the fact that at the time of his capture he was engaged in enforcing an illegal occupation and blockade of 1.5 million people.
Nonetheless, being a captive and the effect of his capture on his family must be incredibly traumatic. If anyone should be forced to endure such pain it should be the officers and leaders of the IDF and Israeli government that convinced Shalit that enforcing a brutal military occupation is in the best interest of his nation.
Like you said Shalit was just a kid who, like every other kid he grew up with, joined the IDF when he came of age, and followed the orders he was given.
But we also cannot forget that for precisely the same conduct, a Palestinian would be considered a legitimate target not for capture but for death.
I could not have worded that better, and its for this reason that I find any Zionist outrage over Shalit to be incredibly hypocritical.
David Samel,
Thank you for your insight, you put into words what I and many others have always thought. If you have the power, you set the rules and to hell with everyone else.
Heinz was just a kid who, like every other kid he grew up with, joined the Army when he came of age, and followed the orders he was given.
James, the same hypocritical scenario plays out over and over, and is based on a racist devaluation of the worth of certain human beings. For example, when we think of the 1972 Muncich massacre, we think of the 11 Israeli athletes and coaches who were killed. Want to know their names and their stories? Easy to find. But in retaliation for Munich, Israel bombed refugee camps in southern Lebanon and Syria, killing anywhere from 60 (the figure used in the movie “Munich”‘s one brief reference to this event) to several hundred anonymous Palestinians, none of whom had any part in the planning of the Munich operation. The purpose was to slaughter many times the number of Israelis killed, to show that there is a high price for taking Jewish blood. Want to know the name of a single victim of Israeli death-from-the-air? Good luck. In fact, though this retaliation was never a secret, Munich remains a story solely about Palestinian contempt for Israeli life. My guess is that about 1% of the people who know about Munich at all also know about the far greater toll in Palestinian life. Some people who are killed are remembered as martyrs, and others are fully disposable into oblivion.
Citizen, you mock what I said about Shalit, comparing him to a Nazi soldier. (You don’t necessarily take the position that Israel is the equivalent of Nazi Germany, but the implication is there unless you state otherwise.) I do not think my sympathy for Shalit and his family is inappropriate. What I said about Shalit is surely true, and your application of that statement to “Heinz” is true as well. You leave it there, as if your point is clear, but it really is not. There is nothing wrong with sympathy for the average grunt drafted into the German Army. In fact, when Reagan visited Bitburg cemetery to lay a wreath, the controversy was not over remembering the “Heinzes” buried there, but over the fact that a number of SS were buried there as well. There were prisoner exchanges that took place throughout the war, and after the war, remaining prisoners were sent home. “Heinz” was not prosecuted for the crimes of the Reich. I think it is fair to compare Shalit with Heinz (though it is unfair to compare Israel with Nazi Germany) and to have sympathy for both. My point was that it is nauseatingly hypocritical to have sympathy for Shalit and not the many tens of thousands of Palestinians who have been held in Israeli prisons over the decades, who would have been lucky to experience the same conditions as Shalit’s captivity. The same can be said of Heinz, that it would be absurd to have sympathy for the average German soldier captured or killed in the war without having sympathy for similar soldiers of the Allies.
There is a great deal of public sympathy for Shalit, almost universal in Israel. I wish that such feelings for this one individual translated into sympathy for the many thousands of Palestinians imprisoned in Israel.
I should add, btw, that while I do have sympathy for Shalit, I do not have contempt for an opposing point of view. I can understand people who are so sick and tired of the attention given to this one captive solely because he’s Israeli and Jewish that they do not give a “rat’s ass” about him. I just don’t join in that sentiment.
Thanks, David. Here’s a terrific Al-Jazeera report that offers some of the perspective that is so lacking in western coverage and awareness of the issues surrounding Shalit’s capture and imprisonment.
David Samel: “…though it is unfair to compare Israel with Nazi Germany…”
Unfair how? It checks in every characteristic, except for 1. the little that’s left of its quickly disappearing “democracy” reserved to the Master Race; 2. the fact that it has not yet reached the point of industrial genocide with ovens and all. So it’s a “not yet” on both points but watch their smoke, if any puns are allowed. Another difference: the Nazis used their own means for waging wars of aggression, not a pussywhipped Sugardaddy.
As for Heinz Shalit, he is technically a criminal against peace for being in uniform in a war of aggression and statistically a very probable war criminal. He had a choice, as the Master Race people still can desert without necessarily forgoing life. He has been abandoned by his government who refuses an exchange, so why should any non-Zionist worry for him? Let’s first have full compliance to all Geneva requirements by the Zionist.
azythos, your point no. 2 is a little like saying Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? Nazi Germany was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people, including many millions directly and intentionally put to death. In my opinion, raising the spectre of Nazi Germany when discusing Israel’s behavior, without any context or nuanced discussion, is inappropriate. (Some people on this site have succeeded in discussing the Nazi analogy intelligently.) While comparisons of Arabs and Muslims to Nazis are more plentiful and almost always outrageously unfair, comparisons of Israelis to Nazis are facile and imflammatory to the point that they obscure rational discussion. It’s almost doing the Israelis a favor by giving them something to whine about.
Thanks Shmuel. I look forward to seeing this al-Jazeera report, but my computer is temporarily soundless.
azythos, I had not noticed that you argue that one difference between the Nazis and Israel is that “the Nazis used their own means for waging wars of aggression, not a pussywhipped Sugardaddy.” Yes indeed, the Nazis sure were resourceful. Isn’t that taking the expression “give the devil his due” a little too far? Did you really want to say that?
“…comparisons of Israelis to Nazis are facile and imflammatory to the point that they obscure rational discussion.”
If they “inflame” anyone, too bad. I listed the few differences that I can see (and find irrelevant). As already said, I see the argument about the scale of the damage as certainly irrelevant as long as Zionism is alive.
“Some people on this site have succeeded in discussing the Nazi analogy intelligently” – Sorry for being slow. Please pinpoint _exactly_ where the _substantial_ difference is. If, of course, it’s worth your time for my instruction. As for context and nuance, the only immediately understandable context for someone born during the war is the German occupation itself, and the Resistance. So where are the nuances that would make any analogy undefensible? This is important because it conditions our action.
David Samel – Sorry for multiplying the posts, but just saw this re use of proxies: “Did you really want to say that?”… Isn’t that taking the expression “give the devil his due” a little too far?
My question: Is the description summarily accurate or not?
azy – you say that “the argument about the scale of the damage as certainly irrelevant as long as Zionism is alive.” Simply put, that is where we differ. As for your statement that the Nazis used their own resources while Israel relied upon the US, I concede that your description is “summarily accurate.” I still think it is a bizarre thing to say. You surely used it in the context of showing some comparison between Israel and the Nazis in favor of the latter. Their reliance on their own industry in slaughtering a large chunk of the European population is a little like praising Timothy McVeigh for parking his truck in a legal spot and even putting quarters in the meter. I mean, really.
D.S. – My motion to reconsider is based on the same thoughts on both counts.
As long as Zionism is alive, there is an increasingly aggressive, nuclear-armed state that needs continual landgrab and continual wars of aggression. The vicious circle of increasing madness of its government feeding the increasing madness of the Master Race population is an endless loop. As a result, I see an unavoidable build-up to not only pasage from war on civilians to more systematic extermination but also generalized war, with millions of victims a realistic (and already reached, see below) estimate. As Wodehouse would put it, “watch their smoke”.
Now, blind, unconditional obedience by Sugardaddy is not just the tasteless cosmetic element you seem to suggest, as the aggression on Iraq and the inexorable build-up to conflict with Iran show: These guys are in overdrive towards a world war with my tax money buying my government on their behalf. Also, the “flotilla incident” obviously marked the point where they dropped their last mask and got away with it, at least as far as the US and its moronic aggression on behalf of Israel is concerned.
And I shouldn’t worry?
Worry all you want, azythos. I said you should not compare Israel to the Nazi regime that slaughtered millions of human beings based upon your speculation that the Zionist mentality will inevitably lead to a similar result. In the first place, your dire prediction is hardly the stuff of certainty, but even more importantly, comparisons to the Nazis are not helpful or convincing. Zionists love to be compared to Nazis, because it gives them the opportunity to scream their outrage at this insult. Frankly, their outrage at being compared to Nazis is more likely to be convincing than your analysis.
You are also being somewhat disingenuous, saying that I minimized the significance of the US doing Israel’s bidding. Actually, I ridiculed your argument that the Nazis deserved some credit for acting alone without help from a superpower. I don’t think this is a misinterpretation of what you said.
What the ‘zis will use as an excuse to feign outrage, … that is ridiculous even as blackmail as long as the comparison is based on fact.
The similarities are overwhelming and I hope it won’t sound patronizing if I remind you of the obvious: the scale of the damage was much smaller in the early days of Nazism proper, when compared to 1945.
What you minimized was the consequence of the Zi’s being in total control of an extremely powerful proxy, as opposed to Germany having had to use its own limited resources. The former is, as a result, even more dangerous.
I fail to see anything in your post that could convince me that the analysis is substantially wrong. Repeating things won’t take us anywhere.
i just heard her show, nauseating, and not the first time… she’s such a vile zionist and it’s about time someone outed her sweet lovely voice for what it is: snake hisses. don’t forget almost 300 children in either detention or jail but shalit is the only cause americans are allowed to ponder. link to dci-pal.org
oh god i can’t bear to read that whole interview. right off the bat he lies thru his teeth.
“They say they’re going to allow unlimited food and other kinds of clothing materials and so on.
that would be ‘unlimited’ kinds of food, obviously they are still not delivering enough of it by a long shot.
Sometimes your comments devolve Phil.
Shalit’s capture and hostage situation is a material element of the Hamas/Israel divide. He is being held for a purpose by Hamas (which they are not realizing), and the failure to release him has an effect on all subsequent prospects of negotiations even.
You may not like the terms, but it is the reality.
I find it ironic that you refer to realists, but reject realism.
The condition that keeps Gaza enclosed is the absence of sovereignty over the region by either Hamas or a unified PA. The release of Shalit would and will result in some progress towards Gazan and/or Palestinian sovereignty.
If you want that, you would urge that it occur, rather than urge that the world jump across the Grand Canyon without a bridge.
I hike off-trail sometime. When I do so in very rugged and dangerous territory, I get isolated MORE than I accomplish a short-cut.
So, Witty, you hiked off–trail into those jails holding the thousands of
Palestinians?
Witty, you don’t know what the hell you are talking about. Israel has been holding Gaza hostage (ALL OF IT) since before this little soldier of Zion was captured.
“Shalit’s capture and hostage situation is a material element of the Hamas/Israel divide. He is being held for a purpose by Hamas (which they are not realizing), and the failure to release him has an effect on all subsequent prospects of negotiations even.”
Notice people how the fact hat Israel capture 2 Palestinians brothers from Gaza city the day before “Shalit’s capture does not concern Witty in the least, becasue as far as Witty’s concerned, their lives are immaterial and irrelevant. The failure of Israel to even account for those 2 men is of no consequence. They’re expendable in Witty’s facist, racist ming.
That’s Liberal Zionism for you.
“I find it ironic that you refer to realists, but reject realism.”
No Wity, what we reject is fascism and rascis, though sadly, they are a reality becasue they are the raison d’etr of Israel.
“The condition that keeps Gaza enclosed is the absence of sovereignty over the region by either Hamas or a unified PA.”
Pur rubbish.
Witty is trhyiong so desperately to ignroe that the reason for the blockade has been exposed as economic warfare, and has nothig to do with security.
“The release of Shalit would and will result in some progress towards Gazan and/or Palestinian sovereignty.”
Hwo do you know this Witty? Every prediction you have ever made has turned out to be false.
” I get isolated MORE than I accomplish a short-cut.”
All you’v ever accomplished Witty, it to explse the ugly side of Zionism, or rather to debunk the notion that Zionism is anything but ugly.
The reasons for the blockade are mixed, as any intelligent observer would note.
They INCLUDE the illegal status of holding Gilad Shalit without red cross observation. (As Amira Hass reported, Palestinian prisoners do receive red cross visits and interview.)
They also include the deferred state of war with Israel.
Until fundamental changes occur in the position of Hamas relative to Israel, and Hamas continues to rule Gaza, the most that can be expected even from a “successful” flotilla, is relative increase in land border crossings.
Amira Hass also described those as not material, not sufficient to effectively rebuild Gaza.
The metaphor of crossing the abyss, was that the solidarity movement demands single steps to “justice”, fantasies, rather than proceeding on actual paths.
You rationalize over and over again that even talking about compromise, even talking about accepting Israel as Israel, is off the table.
And, you don’t get that that position is what makes the radical left utterly alone on the issue, that constructs the reasoning that liberal Zionists choose survival over kindness. In contrast, if the radical left expressed assertion for Palestinians rather than hatred of Israelis primarily, liberal Zionists would choose kindness over suppression.
You’re either not that swift, a conformist to politically correct “discipline”, unable to control your tongue, or horridly egotistical with your stated solidarity bearing the brunt.
“The reasons for the blockade are mixed, as any intelligent observer would note.”
False. There is one reason alone, economic warfare.
link to mcclatchydc.com
The blockade was in place before Shalit was captured, thus it has nothing to do with Shalit.
“They also include the deferred state of war with Israel.”
False. There is one reason alone, economic warfare.
“Until fundamental changes occur in the position of Hamas relative to Israel, and Hamas continues to rule Gaza, the most that can be expected even from a “successful” flotilla, is relative increase in land border crossings.”
False. There is one reason alone, economic warfare.
“The metaphor of crossing the abyss, was that the solidarity movement demands single steps to “justice”, fantasies, rather than proceeding on actual paths.”
To hell with your assinine metaphors Witty.
There is one reason alone for the blockade and that’s economic warfare.
link to mcclatchydc.com
“You rationalize over and over again that even talking about compromise, even talking about accepting Israel as Israel, is off the table.”
1. Israel don’t care what anyone in the world thinks
2. Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian territory. Until it returns to 1967 borders, it does not deserve to be accepted
3. Acceptance in mutual. Israel cannot demand acceptance until it accepts a Palestinian state.
“You’re either not that swift, a conformist to politically correct “discipline”, unable to control your tongue, or horridly egotistical with your stated solidarity bearing the brunt.”
Go to ell you racist, fascist scum.
Your insistence on single, very vague, definition limits your analysis and therefore any prospect of your appeal, Shingo.
Israel can easily shift from the Netanyahu “restriction of air” to Gaza (intended as discomfort not as smothering, a definition of torture actually – discomfort, not killing)
to the Sharon conditional approach. “Every week there is no shelling, the land routes allow 5% more of the 2005 norm.”
That approach is accepted as reasonable control of borders, not inhumane, ENTIRELY defined by Hamas and factions’ actions, and also ENTIRELY within the control of Israel to enforce.
What could be more tribally egotistical than Witty’s requirement that the berift, occupied, blockaded, “put on a diet” Palestinians, about half mere children, accept Israel “as Israel?” Who in their right mind defends those who take a scared and homeless kid’s teddy bear?
RE: “Good gracious! anybody hurt?” “No’m. Killed a nigger.” – Twain via Weiss
MY COMMENT: So someone in addition to me has been watching the PBS rerun of Ken Burns American Stories: Mark Twain (2002)!
i just caught the last 15 minutes or so of the interview in the car. just nauseating the score card the two boosters tally up. not a whiff of objectivity on display.
Another aspect of the focus on Gilad Shalit rather than the isolated Gazans, I attribute to the characterization of the Free Gaza Flotilla as militants (you’d have to be highly motivated to spend money, time and risk).
The failure to maintain the discipline of non-violence on the Mavi Marmara was seen.
IF the discipline had been maintained, even if the result of that was no dramatic confrontation, the focus would remain on Gazan civilians. Additional flotillas would be able to maintain that focus.
What is seen?
What is seen of Hamas in December, 2008? What was seen until November, was that Hamas was disciplined, in control, honoring the cease-fire. What was seen at the end of December, 2008? That Hamas was vengeful, violent, out of control of cadre, unwilling to walk an extra yard beyond the measured course.
What is seen?
How are you going to CHANGE hearts and minds by repetition of the same?
AH, thanks Witty; I knew there was a good reason for OP Cast Lead!
>> RW: How are you going to CHANGE hearts and minds by repetition of the same?
You have got to be fucking kidding! What about Israel’s “better arguments” and “nurturing”? How are you going to CHANGE hearts and minds by repetition of the same: Plowing over land and crops, destroying homes and aquifers, seriously injuring or killing peaceful protesters, damning a population to collective punishment, stealing water resources and land, deploying illegal munitions, et cetera ad nauseam?
Richard is very helpful that way. He doesn’t see Israeli violence–he’s got some sort of filter that blocks it out.
As for the flotilla, if people on board hadn’t fought back and if the Israelis hadn’t killed 9 of them there wouldn’t be all this front page talk of lifting the blockade. It’d be nice to think that a purely nonviolent response by the flotilla participants (with the Israelis beating people up, but nobody in the MSM caring) would have had the same effect, but it wouldn’t.
Donald,
I know you read my blog post, and other posts.
The effects of the militant “resistance” on the flotilla were dual. They imprinted to the world that there is a blockade of Gaza, and some are outraged. (Too many more, much much too many have forgotten already. That the land routes restrictions are lightening is all that will occur. That is success. There will no longer be a humanitarian crisis, just a non-functioning economy, for the absene of metals and dual use technologies and chemicals.)
But, the flotilla also imprinted the stereotype of Arabs and Islamicists as violent, untrustable.
The GREAT contribution of people like Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela, was that the paranoid dominant white powers in South Africa and Jim Crow held similar stereotypical views of blacks.
The astounding contrast between the stereotype and the obvious character, discipline, charity of King and Mandela BROKE the stereotype (not only the oppression). They achieved their liberation before “reaching the promised land”.
That was not the case with the Mari Mavmara. The publicity in that case was dual. Their violence made the next oppression almost inevitable, as distrust was stimulated.
The western non-violent ships didn’t achieve as much attention. And now, the “wise” revolutionary vanguard is castigating even the courageous non-violent patient Gandhi-ish demonstrators for their “cowardice” and “cooptation”.
It depends on who you’re trying to ‘change’. The very fact that you blame the activists for their own deaths is enough proof that NOTHING will ever suffice.
You are not some veteran activist. And the Zionist movement was never non-violent.
You have no moral integrity Witty.
You’ve already stated that you never read the Goldstone Report. You already excused the Nakba as ‘history’ and international law/humanitarian law as ‘political correctness’.
Neither what you preach nor you, yourself – as a participant in this on-going dialogue, are worth it.
Your message is one of double standards and sanctimony.
Its again an observation, that the WORLD does see and consider the violence of the Palestinian factions, and the violence of their solidarity, and the likely violence towards civilian Jews in a forced single state.
You don’t want the world to observe the unconditional rage (rather than politic agitation that is conditional only), then don’t participate in it, don’t encourage it, don’t defend it.
The light of the world is on both, not just Israel.
The light given off by white phosphorus sprinkled down by free million dollar machines onto a tiny land area teeming with children is a light to the world.
“The failure to maintain the discipline of non-violence on the Mavi Marmara was seen.”
Actually, no.
Precious little of what occurred on the Mavi Marmara has been seen, because as we all know (even you, who ran away after the killing started rather than face Israel’s killings spree) Israel confiscated all the camera, memory cards video and tapes as well a jamming communications between the flotilla and the outside world, and imprisoning dozens of accredited journalists.
Those simple actions have changed untold numbers of hearts and minds – to the extent that spontaneous protests broke out across the globe, and multiple new parties are now planning future flotillas.
A real PR coup for the jewish supremacists right?
You gotta be pretty desperate and scared to death to rip out boat rail posts to swing and grab deck chairs to defend you self. What would the likes of Witty do if armed commandoes shinned down ropes to take away his TV remote control?
Except in films presented here, the “resistance” prepared that defense long before commandos dropped.
I’m sure they were scared. That’s the significance of disiplined non-violent preparation.
You can’t put the cat back in the bag. Its out. The Israeli incompetence is out. The solidarity adherence to “non-violence” is out.
Both.
What films Richard? Please provide a link.
Again – since you haven’t responded to my questions below:
link to mondoweiss.net
..Can you explain why Israel has confiscated all independent recordings of events – if not in the service of a massive coverup? Can you explain why all footage issued by Israel MFA has the timestamps blurred out?
Why aren’t you outraged at the treatment of the flotilla activists and the journalists on board? There’s nothing incompetent (your characterisation) about sniping from helicopters or point-blank executions. 4 bullets to the head to kill the US citizen? You are one sick unit Richard.
“‘I’m sure they were scared. That’s the significance of disiplined non-violent preparation.”‘
How would a disiplined non-violent preparation hav e prevented the Isrelis killing one of the photographes from their helicopter before even landing?
“The Israeli incompetence is out. The solidarity adherence to “non-violence” is out.”‘
No Witty, Israel’s violent extremism is out. The solidarity “non-violence” is clear as the passsngers gave aid to the IDF thugs while the IDF denied aid to the pasngers who were shot. The BDS movement has growm enormously and many more boats are on their way to break the siege.
Bow go fuck off you lying piece of shit.
Amira Hass is an actual reporter (not just a blogger) who deals with the issues of Gaza and all the prisoners and also from time to time with the sins of Hamas vis a vis Shalit:
link to haaretz.com
It’s a shame that Hamas isn’t taking the “high road” on this issue. Goodness knows there’s plenty of room on that road, given Israel’s decision to take the lesser route.
But they’re letting him watch the World Cup!
Hey pow shalit is all they got. They need to use it whenever they can.
I mean it’s all the israeli hasbarats have, not the Palestinians.
(All, that is, until they discover that those wmds Iraq transferred to Iran have been transfered now to Gaza, Syria and Lebanon ;D )
“I mean it’s all the israeli hasbarats have…”
And, in order to keep him, they refused to exchange him…
The Palestinian kids think that Shalit is not the main reason for the blockade; rather, HAMAS is:
link to csmonitor.com
The kids are entirely right. The blockade is all about Hamas.
10,000 Palestinian mostly political prisoners in Israeli jails that no one talks about but day in day our of whining about the professional soldier Shalit that was captured while on duty enforcing the blockade of Gaza. It borders on the obscene. He is slowly but surely turning into another Israeli folk hero, like the terrorist Ron Arad that was shot down while bombing civilians over Lebanon. In a few years, they’ll add his picture to the flyers offering huge rewards for information on his whereabouts.
Wow, you nailed it, Phil.
When NPR interviewed one of the Israeli’s who had recently been forced to leave Gaza after Israel decided against settlements in Gaza, you would have imagined you were hearing the sad tale of a Sudetenland German being interviewed over German radio shortly before the Munich Pact was signed in 1938. NPR’s interviewer had not a word to say about the Palestinians of Gaza, as if their story wasn’t relevant which still seems the case with NPR.
Excellent comparison.
There is nothing like the whining, self-absorption of Israelis, every and always the victims.
It’s exceptionally winsome whining on the disgruntled US taxpayer’s NPR dime. Should be part of every tea party chat.
When the Hasbarites begin whinging about poor l’il Gilad, ask them, “But what about Mustafa and Osama Muamar? What? You don’t know about Mustafa and Osama Muamar? But there are TWO of them, and they’ve been held hostage A DAY MORE than Gilad Shalit! And they are kidnapped civilians, not members of an occupying army! How can you not know about them?!
“I’m trying to understand why you’re being so selective. Could it be because . . . because . . . Because you’re a Zionist racist?”
link to en.wikipedia.org
tony karon’s piece at time is good, but as usual he goes even farther in cutting through the cr*p in his piece on his own blog.
more….
link to tonykaron.com
that first line should read “Tony Karon’s piece at Time (magazine) is good, …
My shift key seems to be misbehaving today.
Update on on your US congressional servants putting your country first:
In the House, Rep. Peter King (NY-3) introduced H.R.5501, the America Stands with Israel Act, which among other outrageous claims “supports Israel’s naval blockade of Gaza” and calls on the United States to “oppose any United Nations investigation into the flotilla incident.” As of June 22, this resolution had 79 co-sponsors.
In the Senate, Sen. John Cornyn (TX) introduced S.Res.548, which libelously terms the Gaza Freedom Flotilla a “violent attack and provocation by extremists” and condemns “any future such attempts to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza”. As of June 22, this resolution had 14 co-sponsors.
NY Post –
Rep. Pete King says President Obama’s weak Mideast policy is forcing House Democrats to make the difficult choice of either supporting Obama or supporting Israel.
“I hope they put our relationship with Israel above their relationship with Obama,” King (R-LI) said yesterday.
Flanked by Jewish community leaders at a press conference across from the United Nations, King rallied support for his legislation calling for the US to quit the UN Human Rights Council and its probe of the Israeli raid May 31 on a flotilla off Gaza.
Not a single House Democrat, including the entire New York City delegation, would sign on to that resolution introduced by King last week.
King found Dems and Jewish leaders back in the city who also don’t trust the UN council, which regularly bashes Israel.
He was joined at the press conference by Democratic Assemblymen David Weprin and Rory Lancman, Rabbi Joseph Potasnik and Jewish community leader Jeffrey Wiesenfeld.
“When the president goes abroad and apologizes for America, he is not making it clear that we are on Israel’s side,” King said.
ABC’s Jake Tapper asked Cornyn how the US should react after Israeli commandos killed Furkan Dogan, a dual US and Turkish national who was part of the aid flotilla bound for Gaza. “It’s become clear that Israel killed a US citizen in international waters with this flotilla incident,” Tapper said. “What should the US response be when an ally kills a US citizen?” “We don’t know all the circumstances yet,” Cornyn replied. “But it appears to be a premeditated provocation of Israel and an attempt to run the blockade that’s existed since Hamas took over Gaza.”
BTW, Dogan was a US citizen, not a dual citizen; he became a resident of Turkey but chose not to become a citizen of Turkey.
“is forcing House Democrats to make the difficult choice of either supporting Obama or supporting Israel.”
This is an INCREDIBLE statement for a politician to make. Don’t you guys have laws relating to treason & sedition?
It’s a party thing, not a nation thing.
Although it’s also a nation thing.
Is it potsherd? Isn’t support for Israel equally strong among both Dems and GOP?
I’m just utterly gob-smacked such a statement is accepted by the US population.
“I’m just utterly gob-smacked such a statement is accepted by the US population.”
Actually, it’s probably not, but the israel occupied u.s. media doesn’t air those views that might reflect badly on the ziofascists.
Further, most Americans have grown up constantly being told by their political leaders and MSM that the USA and Israel are really one nation, two states with exactly the same highest values.
Link to cosponsors?
Please consider having compassion and empathy for the abducted soldier Gilad Shalit. He has not been allowed to have visits from the Red Cross.
Why is it that you can show so much heart and care for Arabs, (which is fine, I commend that) but never for Jews?
Don’t knee-jerk respond please, think deep about why it is you don’t stand up for Shalit.
Dear mN: yes, it would be nice if Gilad could have visits from the Red Cross, though perhaps unsafe for him as well as his captives: the IDF is under strong pressure not to let any comrade be taken alive, and if the Israeli surveillance drones see the Red Cross going here or there, he could be toast.
But perhaps you’d like to spare a tear or two for the Palestinians kept in THIS secret Israeli dungeon–no Red Cross for them, either.
The Red Cross and Israeli MPs prevented from knowing location of secret prison
Friday, 18 June 2010 17:34
E-mail Print
link to middleeastmonitor.org.uk
Funny, Jim, Pierre Dorbes of the Red Cross thinks you’re article is BS. Come to think of it that entire website looks a little biased.
link to haaretz.com
Right.
Camp 1391 doesn’t exist either – and there aren’t really 213 Palestinians being held (some for years) without charge or trial – as well as thousands of political prisoners.
link to en.wikipedia.org
link to btselem.org
So you are denying what the man from the Red Cross said in his interview. Do you think he was a Zionist plant?
Denying what?
Maximalist, I do have compassion for Gilad Shalit, in fact if I had been on the flotilla, I would have carried a letter for him. The issue is not whether I have compassion for him, it is the grotesque imbalance of compassion, when a Jewish life is held to be so much more valuable than a Palestinian one. And as Seham points out above, Palestinian babies die all the time in Gaza without treatment for serious illness. And their one genetic sequencer was destroyed in the onslaught. When one Israeli port was blockaded, we got the 67 war….
Gilad Shalit is a recurring picture of two things:
1. Israel’s impotence
2. Hamas’ hypocrisy and brutality
Phil,
You neglect those two concurrent conditions. As I’m accused (innacurately) of ignoring Israeli violence and Palestinian conditions, your comments on Gilad Shalit made an equation with two facts, into a “which fact are you on?” exercise.
The game-changer, the only game changer, is acceptance of Israel.
To the extent that you drift towards single-state sentiments and then goals, you keep the game the same game.
The signficance of freeing Gilad Shalit is that it is known as a conditional step towards normalization of land crossings. It is not the sole condition, and therefore there will not be magic. It is however a REALISTIC condition.
Armed conflict won’t succeed at anything. I assume that your goal does not include the elimination of Israel from the map, nor the removal of Israelis from their three generation homes, back to “where they came from”.
(Frankly, I can’t tell sometimes).
Overtime and overtime and overtime and overtime, still tied.
The reason that the 67 war resulted from the blockade of the straights of Tiran, was the Israel was a sovereign internationally recognized state.
Gaza is not that. Gaza is a mix of civilians and fanatics that forge “resistance” violently to the only two nations that it borders.
The issue, the only issue, is the acceptance of Palestinian freedom.
Philip,
Thank you for stating this clearly. This sort of empathy can help to bridge the gaps we have between us.
Respectfully,
Max
Phil,
The Jewish vs. Palestinian life was addressed by Wright, and it goes both ways. I’d like to take it a step further, 1.5 million lives for Gilad Shalit. The international community would force Israel’s hand for real change (even more real than what is happening now with the blockade) if Shalit were released. Wright was being ridiculous suggesting Hamas give Shalit back w/ out a trade, but I believe now would be the most opportune time for a trade.
Don’t forget the endless rhetoric by Nasser, the expulsion of the UN peacekeepers, and the 100k soldiers built up in the Sinai, the port @ Eilat was only a small part.
You’ve made quite the trade, your passion for your journalistic integrity.
Hamas has offered to trade on various occasions. Israel refuses. Basically, what you want is a trade based on Israeli terms.
What exactly will the international community do to force Israel into anything? The international community has to date been unable to force Israel to do anything at all. Not a single one if Israel’s daily crimes have been stopped by the international community.
And Israel has offered to trade on numerous occassion, and Hamas refuses, is likely more accurate.
400 for 1 is not sufficient for you?
Israel has never offered anything, but made demands.
Stop lying Witty.
Witty, Israel kidnaps Palestinians on a daily basis. You should check out the Today in Palestine news list that gets posted daily, there is a section called, “Detainees” and it documents how many Palestinian civilians are kidnapped on a daily basis. Israel already kidnaps a few hundred Palestinians a month, none of whom get charged with anything, they just sit in prison. So your 400:1 is meaningless, it should be 5000:1
Why not 1:1?
”Why not 1:1?”
Why keep the other 900 innocent prisoners locked up?
“You’ve made quite the trade, your passion for your journalistic integrity.”
The self-hating jew insult – where integrity = supporting one subset of the tribe, right or wrong.
Where’s YOUR integrity Menachem? Your namesake (among others) Begin stated the 1967 war was an opportunistic attack by Israel, not a matter of self-defence:
“The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”
link to en.wikipedia.org
“”Why not 1:1?”
Why keep the other 900 innocent prisoners locked up?”
It’s bizarre that the pro-Zionist side would use the 400 to 1 argument. It only makes sense if we assume that all 400 really were terrorists–if many or most or all of them were not it means that Israel was holding hundreds of innocent people and was willing to use them as bargaining chips to get 1 of their own citizens released. How this is supposed to reflect well on Israel is for a Zionist to explain.
You’re only seeing what you want to see mN.
In a thread started by you I said that I don’t condone the holding of Shalit, and equally I don’t condone the holding by Israel in similar circumstances – nor do I condone Israel’s secret prison(s) – which obviously don’t admit Red Cross.
link to mondoweiss.net
I don’t see any compassion from you for those Palestinians – just another whine about Shalit not being the centre of our universe. Why don’t you stand up for those Palestinians – and for that matter why not also the 600+ that report being tortured since Israel “outlawed” torture in 1999?
And again – it’s not about “jews”.
You’re using paranoid/inflammatory language. Shalit is held because he’s Israeli and IDF, not jewish.
Israel and the US have Gilad Shalit Tourette’s. I’m sorry for Shalit, but not any more than I would be for any other POW.
I would be very interested to know how he feels about Israeli policies in Gaza now, having been forced to live there for quite some time.
Frances- Most POW’s are allowed visits by Red Cross and correspondence with their families. Read Amira Hass’s article that I linked to above.
Your point being?
my point being that your reaction: “I’m sorry for Shalit, but not any more than I would be for any other POW.” should be amended, “but not any more than I would be for any other POW who is deprived of Red Cross visits and correspondence from his family.”
Sure, I can amend it to your correction.
By the by, does the Red Cross get to visit the children held prisoner by Israel? I’m curious, I genuinely don’t know.
From the article by Amira Hass, it would seem so.
And the Palestinians being held in Israel’s secret prison(s) such as Camp 1391? Red Cross visits?
What of continuing reports of torture, as reported by PCATI?
Would be true if there was an official state of war. That is not the situation. At any rate, the Israeli government does not recognize such a state of war when discussing/denying its innumerable war crimes and its main crime against peace.
I’m no lawyer myself, but those who are specialized in this kind of stuff generally agree that whoever has got Shalit (technically at least a prosecutable criminal of war, by the way) can well ask for the ‘Zis to do it on their side at the same time –indemnify every single victim of their war crimes and have every single prisoner seen and investigated by the ICRC.
I hate to be callous, but, I so don’t give a rat’s ass about Gilad Shalit or his daddy or granddaddy. Hamas has released video of him and he looks healthy to me. They also claim that they have provided medical services to him as needed. That’s a lot better than all of the Palestinian men, women, children and INFANTS that have died from preventable diseases over the last two years because Israel would not let them out of Gaza to get treatment.
This is the most recent death of an infant due to Israel draconian measures:
Palestinian infant dies waiting for permission to leave Gaza
Published Monday 25/05/2009 17:16
Gaza – Ma’an – The number of Palestinians to die as a result of the Israeli and Egyptian siege of Gaza reached 337 when an infant succumbed to illness on Monday.
The child, 12-month-old Muhammad Rami Ibrahim Nofal, was not issued a permit for medical treatment abroad, despite his serious heart condition.
He died at a Khan Younis hospital while doctors waited for the permit that never came.
In a statement, the de facto Health Ministry said it had appealed to Egyptian authorities to open the Rafah border crossing for the movement of patients seeking treatment abroad.
Both Israel and Egypt have blockaded the Gaza Strip since Hamas’ takeover in 2007.
link to maannews.net
Of course, only the Palestinian media reported on this.
Double standards like usual. Like how Witty blames the activists for the Flotilla raid deaths.
Every facet of the violence – Israel dominates and does much worse. Yet, Zionists try to reverse the situation and continually play victim.
400 deaths nearly, due to the siege. And people are dismissing the Flotillas as simply a PR ploy to bring attention to the siege – AS IF, that was a bad thing.
Cliff,
you seem like a smart chap, any reason you think the MM was the only one where there was bloodshed? What was different between the MM and the rest of the flotilla, or any other ‘aid’ ship which attempts a breach of the blockade?
If I see someone defending themselves, get shot 30 times – then I might reconsider resisting as well.
This is not complicated, Zio. The ship had no weapons. It was in international waters. Israeli politicians had been threatening the ship and making the threats well-known in advance. The elected fascist-racist Lieberman said the ship was a provocation and threat – and that they [Israel] would ‘stop’ it at any cost or something.
I don’t care about the IDF goons who hijacked the ship. I care about the activists.
My simple conclusion about the entire ordeal is that, given the murderous, vindictive nature of Israel, it’s Zionist society and the IDF – the activists should have expected to be killed/maimed/etc.
Why did the IDF confiscate the video/audio from the passengers?
Why did they board the ship when it was checked out by the Turks as having no weapons (and there were no weapons)?
People like you or Dick, and any other Zionist – Left or Right – love authority because it’s on your side right now. Bureaucracy and the artifice of bullshit and lies is on your side right now.
I’ve seen these kinds of arguments so often from your type. For example, a Palestinian man was driving a car down a street and swerved into some policemen after the car was pelted w/ rocks. (Or maybe it was his motorcycle, I forget which)
He was then shot and killed of course. The Israeli soldiers/cops were also reported to have done so at point blank range after he crashed.
In the comment section are a bunch of replies like ‘he should have come to a full stop and none of this would have happened’.
I don’t expect those people on the MM to get into a fetal position for the IDF. Scumbags in uniform.
It’s only a tragedy because it cost them their lives. I have no doubt in my mind that some were executed or shot blindly in the chaos. And it’s just tragically stupid of the IDF to grapple into that angry crowd. No one on that ship was going to welcome the IDF as liberators.
So yea, I think – again cuz I’m so smart – that a lot of the other ships probably didn’t want to get murdered. I know some of them resisted by simply putting their bodies in the way of the IDF goons. That didn’t go over well but at least they’re not dead.
Nobody on the other ships was shot by helicopter snipers, then boarded from the air, as on the Mavi Marmara.
Violence however *was* used by the IDF in overtaking the other 5 ships – including the tasering of Australian photographer Kate Geraghty – an accredited journalist – onboard the Sfendoni.
“I was ‘Tasered’ by Israelis, says Herald photographer”
link to smh.com.au
A smuggled recording of the Sfendoni (the ship Geraghty & Pale McGeough were on) being taken over by the IDF:
link to vimeo.com
You cut direct to the essential point, Seham.
Shalit is a casualty of a war Israel chooses to wage on Gaza. Wars have casualties. Shalit is, if anything, proof of Israel’s belief in its own impunity for its actions.
OK.
I also just want to point out that Gilad Shalit was not some innocent bystander that Hamas kidnapped while he was on his way to school, the way Israel does to Palestinian young men that are Shalit’s age. His presence on Occupied Palestinian land is actually criminal. And I want to remind people that Gilad did not need to participate in the illegal occupation of Palestinian land because he has French citizenship. So unless Shalit and his parents are totally retarded (and therefor innocent) they all knew what they were getting into when they moved to Israel and decided to have kids and set up shop there. Israel is illegally occupying, stealing and destroying Palestinian land. Waging wanton wars against civilian populations to “break” them into submission. Collective punishment is illegal. Extrajudicial assassinations, Mabhouh was not the first. Killing and maiming American citizens since before Shalit served in the military. Emily was not the first to be maimed. Arresting political activists, holding women and children in detention without pressing charges against them. Torturing Palestinian prisoners, many of whom have died while being brutally interrogated, some of whom were children, some of those children claim they were raped and or sodomized in Israeli prisons. Remind me again why people in this country care so much about human rights abuses in Iran? Is the fact that we’re paying for Israelis to abuse Palestinian children in prison completely lost on everyone? If the U.S. decided on stealing what it hasn’t already stolen from Mexico and they wanted to send me to Mexico to humiliate, degrade and oppress Mexicans… I’d go to Palestine for a few years, or anywhere else that would have me.
He was captured in Israel. Unless you are using the non-starter of an argument that all the land is occupied. If that is the case than you you’re not worth my breathe.
They were manning a post in Gaza which is a part of Occupied Palestine when they were ambushed and some were killed while Shalit was captured.
“He was captured in Israel. Unless you are using the non-starter of an argument that all the land is occupied. If that is the case than you you’re not worth my breathe.”
And the 2 Palestinians captured the day before were kidnapped from Gaza City.
Of course, the IDF don’t operate inside Israel but they do in the occupied territories.
They were in Israel Seham.
They were in a military post inside of Gaza. You can’t take a step backwards and say, “I’m in Israel now, don’t capture me…” But anyway, that’s totally beside the point, if they would have gotten him in Tel Aviv it changes nothing. Israelis kidnap Palestinian men and women (civilians) on their way to work, in their homes, in their places of worship, OUT OF THEIR HOSPITAL BEDS, they steal kids (also civilians!) that are walking to and from school, SOMETIMES OUT OF THEIR CLASSROOMS. He’s a soldier that was serving in the criminal occupation of Gaza and whether he was kidnapped on the left or right side of whatever border Israel drew up for the purposes of that particular checkpoint makes no difference to me.
Keep an eye on that argument, Schwartz, because it just might start up despite you.
The old well they suck worse argument, got anything else Shingo?
He’s not comparing what happens in the Israel-Palestine conflict to Darfur, Schwartzman.
He’s comparing to intrinsically related parties together. It’s relevant. It’s contextual.
Do try to keep up.
to* = two
No that argument will suffice, since it perfectly illustrates Zionist hypocrisy and double standards, as well as Zionist blatant disregard for non Israeli human life.
“They were in Israel Seham.”
Why should it matter since Israel has no borders?
It matters because what he said wasn’t true. It shows a pattern of deceit by the commentator here on MW. Then when you are called out it is always the “well they suck worse” argument.
And Shalit was never in Gaza.
“Shalit was never in Gaza.”
Ha ha ha. I’m done with this site for today, you’re really dumb Scwartzman and your Israeli propaganda is so elementary.
“And Shalit was never in Gaza.”
Never in Gaza or not in Gaza at the time?
Look here Fartman..I know your kind. No different from Wondering Jew. You want to win an argument by focusing on a detail, important to you but not to the rest of us since Israel knows no borders. It enters any occupied territory any time, day or night..I see no wrong in that Hamas is entitled to the same.. The argument “they suck worse” highlights the fact that for what is routine for Israel is exceptional for Hamas. This is the crux of the matter not that insignificant detail about the location where your IDF thug was at the time.
BTW, I myself am not sure of the location itself even if Wiki says it was a cross-border capture. For me it makes absolutely no difference.
” It enters any occupied territory any time, day or night..I see no wrong in that Hamas is entitled to the same.. The argument “they suck worse” highlights the fact that for what is routine for Israel is exceptional for Hamas. This is the crux of the matter not that insignificant detail about the location where your IDF thug was at the time.”
That’s a very important point you are making TGIA. The same applies to the obsession about rockets fired by Hamas. The fact that Israel have fired many times as many rockets, shells, missiles into Gaza is taken for granted as the norm, because Israel always does it with impunity.
Another example if the patetic argument that the cross border skirmish with Hezbollah in 2006 was an act of war, when Israel has performed such acts routinely with impunity. These Hasbara hacks assume that because the Palestinians are too poorly armed to retatliate, that it means they are not acts of violence or acts of war.
This mentality is the basis of the majority if Witty’s arguments too. Because the Pdlestinians or Hamas don’t have the firepower to resist Israeli aggression, it becomes incumbent upon them to suffer on silence and accept their humiliation.
Their crime is not bring sufficiently well armed while Israel insist am armed resistance us unnaceptable.
Never in Gaza. Israel launched its first ground invasion into Gaza since its unilateral withdrawal from the strip a year earlier.
link to news.bbc.co.uk
The devil is in the details.
“The devil is in the details.”
On the contrary, in the Israeli narrative (on most matters of import like this), repeatedly, the details are as if they are explicated by the devil. The explication is always minus the context or the correct emphasis, which is the essence of a lie.
What the hell are you trying to prove?
Incursions into Gaza as in the West Bank ( and South Lebanon at one stage) were routine. I don’t see your point shwartman..
Just a mo. There is no need to invoke the fact that all the land is occupied. “Israel” declared war and is occupying non-Israeli territory, and as long as it occupies and/or controls even an inch outside the 1948 “borders” it remains at war. When at war it cannot invoke immunity on any of its entire territory. That simple for the normal, i.e. non-Zionist world: even if the official Israeli stance changes by miracle, as long as there is any Israeli presence outside the 48 borders, all its territory (and unfortunately, all its population) is officially a war zone.
“Never in Gaza. Israel launched its first ground invasion into Gaza since its unilateral withdrawal from the strip”
Clearly this is false. The day before Shslit’s capture , the IDF Kidnspped 2 Palestinisn brothers in a raid on Gaza city.
So yes, the devil is in the details, including the ones you are trying to ignore.
R
“I hate to be callous, but, I so don’t give a rat’s ass about Gilad Shalit or his daddy or granddaddy.”
I’ll be callous, I don’t give a rat’s arse about shalit. Period.
You guys are at war. You don’t give a rats ass about any other human beings.
It’s a question of proportion. Gilad Shalit is not worth a million other human beings who don’t happen to be Jews.
“It’s a question of proportion. Gilad Shalit is not worth a million other human beings who don’t happen to be Jews.”
Obviously he is to Witty.
You should already know that Ziofascists like Witty reject the argument of proportionality?
Shalit’s importance is in the plug in the damn.
Hamas prefers the plug, the continued isolation, rather than any normalization.
Its within its power to release or complete a trade.
A trade on whose terms?
“Shalit’s importance is in the plug in the damn.”
Because the 2 Palestinians that were captured the day before are of no importance. They are just Palestinians and thus their lives are meaningless compared to Israelis.
“Hamas prefers the plug, the continued isolation, rather than any normalization.”
False. Hamas is the side that supports a 2 state solution and the arab Peace Initiative. Israel has rejected both and has stted it wil nebver meet with Hamas.
Bullshit. Shalit’s importance is in propaganda, nothing else. Releasing him will result in no normalization and no one with any sense thinks otherwise.
Shalit is as important as the rockets – meaning, unimportant.
Israel will always think of one excuse after the other because Western societies are not even partially engaged in this conflict.
There is a context to this cynicism (truth) – and that is the far greater, both in profundity and frequency, crimes carried out by Israel against the Palestinians.
Palestinian civilians, as well as Lebanese civilians – children too – are REGULARLY kidnapped and imprisoned by Israel.
Yet, this one soldier is a big deal? Of course not. He is a PR ploy and distraction.
Israel has killed almost 400 people due to the siege. None of those people matter to the Liberal Zionist.
I dont know why you continue to troll this blog, Witty [ad hominem stuff cut out]
Richard Witty June 22, 2010 at 8:58 pm
“Shalit’s importance is in the plug in the damn.”
I always this hasbara buggery had something to do with repressed libido.
Damn, I always FIGURED…
It’s not HAMAS who prefers the plug, but AIPAC USA: The US Obama regime (via Mitchell) vetoed a German-brokered deal with HAMAS that would have released Gilad Shalit last December.
link to aliabunimah.posterous.com
“Because the 2 Palestinians that were captured the day before are of no importance. They are just Palestinians and thus their lives are meaningless compared to Israelis.”
That’s the fundamental point, at least as far as discussion in the US is concerned. There’s some lip service paid to the need to stop settlements, but when it comes to violence, coercion, kidnapping, and other forms of brutality it’s only Israeli lives that matter. It’s why Israeli violence is always described as a reprisal–because there is no ceasefire violation until an Israeli is killed.
Changing that attitude is the only way to achieve a just peace. If the attitude doesn’t change, there’s no way the US will be an honest broker.
Its a fundamental distraction.
The abduction of Shalit was planned long in advance. Maybe Hamas was looking for a justifiable moment to conduct the abduction.
There was a similar abduction attempt reported in Haaretz the day before of Israelis in the West Bank. Also, not included in the accounts of the events.
Don’t you know that how the Israelis treat the Palestinians is supposed to win friends and influence people? You just beat them up and shoot their children, that is a surefire formula for getting Shalit released. Just bomb the strip, and bulldoze the homes, why isn’t that good enough for an instant release of Shalit? The next phase of showing kindness is to starve them, and make sure they cannot care for the ill. With all of this I don’t know why Shalit is released, there should be a love fest going on between the Palestinians and Israelis with that type of treatment, don’t you think so?
Rather – With all of this I don’t know why Shalit is not released, there should be a love fest going on between the Palestinians and Israelis with that type of treatment, don’t you think so?
Isn’t this how you make friends RW? You have made a lot of friends in here by supporting these atrocities. Everyone loves you’re position, we can’t wait to hear more pearls of wisdom from you – tell us more. Than when you’re nonsense is rejected you can just hang your head, poor outcast RW, suffering all of this antisemitic verbiage. Go down Moses, way down in Egypt land, tell them – let me people go…
“You guys are at war. You don’t give a rats ass about any other human beings”
Yes, we should all beote like you Witty, who supports mass murder and blames the victim, while decrying the knnevitable outrage as being unconstructive towards mutual accepatnce and peace.
You’ll have to excuse the rest if us for having trouble getting our heads around your Liberal Zionis enlightenment.
“You guys are at war”
Duh, if you’ll excuse my French. Go complain to Netan-yahoo.
“You don’t give a rats ass about any other human beings.”
Who’s talking?
>> You guys are at war. You don’t give a rats ass about any other human beings.
Another crack in the veneer.
Witty views himself as the plug in the dam, the only one here who gives a rat’s ass about any other human beings. I’m sure he can give you all the name of those thousands of Palestinians kidnapped and jailed by Israel; as well he has a list of names, each as specific as Gilad Shalit, that list
of Palestinian children, each sprinkled with white phosphorous and deprived of their very own teddy bear while they sleep in the cement dust under the stars, a chunk of liberated cement their pillow.
Witty:
Google “Gilad Shalit”:
link to google.ca
Then google “Osama Muamar”, as per Jim;s comment above:
link to google.ca
The latter has almost one thousand (1000) more hits than the latter.
Then you come on this site and puke up this hairball:
Can you be so utterly daft as not to see Phil’s very legitimate point? It is that the world, yourself very much included, seems to care a lot more about an Israeli prisoner than Palestinian prisoner. This is in keeping with the world’s disproportionate concern for Israeli victims as opposed to Palestinian victims, etc, etc., etc., etc., etc.
While I was groping about looking for references to the topic, I found this:
link to haaretz.com
“You guys are at war.”
Witty, the very embodiment of a Tartuffe..”Hide this violence that I can’t bear to see”..
Sickening..
Don’t project your jewish supremacy on me Richard.
..and to the extent it’s a war – it’s that way because Israel (and you) wants and *needs* it to be a war.
The simple non-war solution would be to completely withdraw from the occupied territories and offer reparations + significant financial reparations for the Palestinian refugees to return to the Palestinian (not-Israeli) state. This has been consensus position among international community for decades, as you well know. And the situation for the Palestinians get progressively WORSE.
It’s not a matter of giving a rat’s ass or not about any other human beings. Zionism has devolved into something extremely ugly – deadly for Palestinians and increasingly internationals. It’s Nazism-minus. Again, you demonstrate a grand sense of entitlement in being angry we refuse to support your sickness.
WE’RE at war? Religious wackos like your son killed nine innocent, unarmed people — one of them a 19-year-old American citizen — and WE’RE at war?
WE don’t care about other human beings? Where were you weeks ago when this first happened? Don’t come around here now and insult us, you craven intellectual coward.
Richard Witty wrote:
“The failure to maintain the discipline of non-violence on the Mavi Marmara was seen. IF the discipline had been maintained, even if the result of that was no dramatic confrontation, the focus would remain on Gazan civilians. Additional flotillas would be able to maintain that focus.”
Doesn’t the evidence show that one or more activists were shot from above even before the commandos reached the ship’s deck? Sounds to me as if the commandos lost “discipline” first…
>> Doesn’t the evidence show that one or more activists were shot from above even before the commandos reached the ship’s deck? Sounds to me as if the commandos lost “discipline” first…
Doesn’t matter. Although the soldiers ignored RW’s commandment to “live and let live”, the activists are ultimately to blame for failing to make the “better argument” once the commandos’ boots hit the deck. Instead of “nurturing” them, the activists wallowed mythologically in their own narrative, thereby maximally destabilizing the situation.
In short, they weren’t “good Israelis” so they deserved to die.
“Remember the Holocaust!”
“Doesn’t the evidence show that one or more activists were shot from above even before the commandos reached the ship’s deck? Sounds to me as if the commandos lost “discipline” first…”
You’re missing the whole point of Witty’s wisdom. It’s not about discipline when the IDF do it, becasue they are traumatized and we have to accept that this will always be Israel’s response, therefore it’s the fault of the other side when Israel massacre civilians.
The fact that civilians are killed is proof they didn’t convey their good intentions well enough to Israel.
It’s a bit like blaming the rape victim for being raped becasue she didn’t have the good sense to consenting to sex in the first place.
Where is there evidence that a death resulted from shots from above?
“Where is there evidence that a death resulted from shots from above?”
In Israeli government hands, where they refuse to return it.
What we have is eyewitness testimony from half a dozen witnesses.
Erased, or so I have heard.
Kinda like that iconic video from the lady who was on the lower deck of the ship? your smoking gun?
Smoking guns you mean?
1. Every part of Iarael’s story has been debunked
2. Israel have changed their version of events at least 3 times
3. Israel seized all video and photo equipment and failed to return it
4. Israel are begging the UN not to conduct it’s own investigation
Al Jazeera producer Jamal El Shayyal:
“Until that point I had not yet seen an Israeli soldier on deck. As far as I am concerned, it’s a lie to say they only started shooting on deck. Only then did I see an Israeli soldier on deck.
The men who were dead had been fired on from above.”
link to independent.co.uk
There are enough questions about events that a CREDIBLE investigation needs to be held. Release the flotilla activists and journalist videos, release the memory cards, release the IDF’s recording of events and let’s see what REALLY happened.
In running away for a fortnight after the killing began Richard you managed to avoid answering a lot of tricky questions. If Israel behaved reasonably – and always intended to behave reasonably – why was the first priority of the IDF soldiers to confiscate all independent recordings of the raid?
Do you support this attempt at whitewash?
What about the fake weapons photos with EXIF date from 2006?
The doctored “go back to Auschwitz” audio?
Can you not smell a huge zionist coverup?
Forget bullets from above: autopsy says that there were four close-range headshots into the American. How can that be any but an assissination? I.e. murder?
How’s that for Witty-esque humanism?
“Can you not smell a huge zionist coverup?”
Every Israeli cover-up is no stench in the nostrils of RW, it is a sweet smelling savor.
“Every Israeli cover-up is no stench in the nostrils of RW, it is a sweet smelling savor.”
And the lustre of a beautiful jewel.
Using a nick like schwartzman while promoting genocidal racism is typical of the ziofascist.
Five of the victims were shot in the back of the head. Altogether the full nine had 30 bullet wounds.
Richard Witty :
Where is there evidence that a death resulted from shots from above?
Please watch video, especially from the 4 minute mark :
link to youtube.com
And one of them was an American–anyone see Witty looking into that, commenting on the executed young man, or just see Witty deploring the jailed plight of Shalit, an Israeli GI.
Thanks lareineblanche I hadn’t seen that.
Here’s a recent radio interview w/ Abbas Al Lawati – a Gulf News (Dubai) reporter who was on the flotilla.
link to nightline.podOmatic.com
Lareine,
Thanks for that video. It describes the horrific situation, but does not describe the sequence of behavior.
Do you know of a reliable summary of the actual sequence of events.
The film provided by the “culture of resistance” filmmaker described in real time that there was not live ammunition used from above, but non-lethal ammunition.
Nowhere is it described the communications between the Israeli command and the flotilla ship captain.
The questions remain as to whether the resistance on the ship resisted or submitted, whether they announced to the Israeli command that they would resist or submit.
There is no question in my mind that the operation was performed amateurishly by the Israeli leadership, that they neither sought to protect Israelis’ lives nor protesters.
“Thanks for that video.”
It describes the horrific situation, but does not describe the sequence of behavior. Do you know of a reliable summary of the actual sequence of events.
How do you define “reliable”? Eyewitnesses? Did you peruse the video?
How do you define “sequence?”
“communications between the Israeli command and the flotilla ship captain”
Richard Parker actually was the first to cite this video online.
There is no question in my mind that the operation was performed amateurishly
You have to give your advice to the IDF then. You’re saying that the goal was something else, what was it?
You’re full of shit. Stop wasting our time.
” that they neither sought to protect Israelis’ lives nor protesters.”
Of course they sought to protect Israelis lives – by killing humanitarians and a journalist – and shooting up to 50 other activists in the process. One IDF Rambo (“Staff Sergeant S”) killed 6 people on a shooting spree.
“Testimony of rogue commando who killed six civilian activists further undermines official IDF story”
link to hybridstates.com
It’s a mistake to call him a rogue commando – it’s IDF SOP that Palestinian (and now internationals) lives are 100% expendable.
I think the sequence of events is well documented.
That is that announcements were made of Israeli intent to board, and to clear the main deck. Didn’t happen. Tear gas was shot, to clear the main deck. Didn’t happen. (Resistance was preferred.) Shots of non-lethal munitions from above (that do periodically kill as a falling tree in a thunderstorm sometimes kills, not intended to kill).
Then the commandos descended, and were attacked harshly, abducted. I don’t know when the first shots of live ammunition occurred.
The resisters’ interpretations were also debunked. There was one video I saw in which a resister described red paint as blood, later to be clarified “thats just paint”. (I’m sure red was picked, to scare.)
With serious discipline in non-violent civil disobedience, the failures in communication and presence of resistance, would not have led to deaths. Mass Arrests. Failure of the mission to deliver aid, and to attract the world’s attention, certainly.
What caused the deaths? What was the action that if was done differently would not have resulted in deaths?
Well, if Israel had never had a military blockade and had never commandeered the ship, and through an egotistical (rather than practical) commando raid, then there would not have been deaths.
But, if Hamas had not undertaken terror campaigns against Israeli civilians, then there would not be a blockade.
But, if Gazans had not been refugees from 1948, there would not have been a terror campaign.
Each REFUSING to take the present in hand and address, what do we want our relationships with our neighbors to be?
If Hamas or other vanguard that you listen to had asked, “we are trying to calm the aggression, the resistance, but illustrate the injustice. Please adopt discipline non-violent means.” would you have complied?
If you felt that the strategy of the resistance looked like it would escalate war and tensions rather than de-escalate, would you speak up?
Or, would you conform, go along?
“I think the sequence of events is well documented.”
You’re full of shit as usual. It was well documented, for sure – and Israel stole all of that documentation for a simple easy to understand reason – which has totally backfired.
You’re so thick Richard. Any reasonable person – one not blinded by ideology -would be alarmed at Israel’s attacks on the integrity of independent press; the killing of multiple journalists, the banning of foreign journalists after Israel broke the Gaza ceasefire on Nov 4, 2008, and most recently completely violating the rights of ALL the journalists covering the flotilla.
Your sequence of events is pure unsupportable fantasy.
“hots of non-lethal munitions from above (that do periodically kill as a falling tree in a thunderstorm sometimes kills, not intended to kill).”
Richard, I think you’re confused about what is sentient and what isn’t. Falling trees (unless you believe in dryads) are not sentient and neither are thunderstorms (though again, referring to Greek mythology, you might be attributing the lightning to Zeus). Israeli commandos are sentient, by all accounts, and surely know that supposedly nonlethal forms of crowd control can injure and even kill. That also goes for tasers, which someone said were used on another ship. I haven’ t looked that up–I have read that people were roughed up on the other ships.
On top of that, civilians being fired upon might not know whether they are being shot by lethal or less-lethal bullets–I’ve read that even real bullet impacts don’t necessarily cause intense pain and people don’t always realize they are seriously injured right away. Once you start firing on people, no matter what sort of bullets you use, you lose the right to complain if they respond by bashing you with metal rods.
As for a purely nonviolent response, I’d have preferred that, but I also think it’s been tried before and if that had been the case here, the Israelis would have beaten up some people, engaged in the usual brutality that sadists in uniform often indulge in (here and abroad) and it would have been one paragraph on page A10 in the NYT. And there would have been no front page news about how the severity of the blockade would be reduced.
Donald – “if that had been the case here, the Israelis would have beaten up some people, engaged in the usual brutality that sadists in uniform often indulge in (here and abroad)”.
That doesn’t seem probable. If you review all the international news of the last 6 months, the way most of the 9 were executed (and we know nothing of 6 more), added to the “do-not-kill” picture list and the fake movies prepared before the interception, premeditation of a massacre on only the Mavi Marmara becomes highly plausible, as a means to both derail the peacemaking deal with Iran and place the (at good last almost-) democratic government of Turkey in the US morons’ “axis of evil” list –pending yet another Zio-slavish military takeover in that country.
I agree with your description of the use of even non-lethal munitions would unnecessarily scare the protesters.
In my blog post, I commented on the amateurish strategy employed that put both Israeli commandos and protesters at unnecessary risk.
That however is a far cry from the description by many of intentional sadistic violence. In this case, the story of the commandos fear motivating their shooting to protect themselves is plausible.
It even explains the story of shots at close range, that are characterized by those that guess on what happened that the shooting was intentional and a massacre.
My conclusion is that the story is a rohrshach test, in which what one believes ahead of time is the story told, and then, like all rumors, the story becomes authority because it was heard from someone else.
The same process that you criticize, you also apply.
“In this case, the story of the commandos fear motivating their shooting to protect themselves is plausible.”‘
Actually it is entirelty false, given that the Israelis shot and killed a passnger on the ship from a helicopter before even setting foot on it.
“It even explains the story of shots at close range, that are characterized by those that guess on what happened that the shooting was intentional and a massacre.”‘
It would if the shots weren”t to the back of the head, which suggest a far more plausible case of execution killings, thus intentional and a massacre.
“My conclusion is that the story is a rohrshach test, in which what one believes ahead of time is the story told…”
As usualy, your conclusion is wrong. Israel already prepared their PR machine ahead of time, jammed radi signals and stole all evidence such as video and photographi material and destroyed it, showing they had something to hide.
And while the Israel versino of events has been debunked and changed repeatedly, the testimony of the passengers has been entirely consitent throughout.
As is usual, I don’t hear you addressing the most important questions Richard.
• what is the Israelis Government hiding 1. by suppressing all footage 2. by fighting against an independent int’l investigation?
• why was the first priority of the IDF (after securing the ships) to permanently confiscate all independent recording of the raid?
• why manhandle accredited journalists so badly?
Rorschach that will you?
That was me that mentioned the tasering Donald and I provided 2 links – it was an Australian journalist (photographer) that was tasered. The second link is an actually video (mostly dark) but you can actually hear the tasering.
I also would’ve preferred a totally non-violent resistance. In my mind, the choice that it would not be, was made by Israel when they decided to make an aggressive commando raid on the flotilla in the middle of the night in int’l waters. The flotilla deliberately stayed in int’l waters during the night, intending to head towards Gaza only during daylight hours. The Israeli navy travelled a huge distance out of Israel’s territorial waters in order to raid at night time. They could have easily disabled the MM and boarded in a less aggressive way.
The whole thing seems designed to intimidate future flotillas, but the opposite has occurred . More people and groups are clamouring to go to Gaza than ever before.
“‘I think the sequence of events is well documented.”
Actually it hasn’t been well documented at all Witty, thanks to Israel stealing all evidence and destroying it.
Seeing as Israel’s story has been debunked and changed by Israel at least 3 times, we can assume your suummation is equally full of shit.
Here”s what happened.
Israel announced a weeks before the flotilla arrived tha it woudl use any means necessaery to stop it reaching Gaza, meaning they wanted to make an example of this attempt were prepared to use lethal force.
Israeli intent to pirate the ship in international waters. The ship made evasive maneuvers and changed direction, going further out to sea. The Israelis used stun grenades, flash bombs and tear gas. They shot one or two passengers fro nteh helicopter and killed at least one.
The Mavi Marmara raised a white flag in surrender. The Israelis ignored it.
The first few Isralei commado’s descended and the ship’s pasngers defendded themselves against this illegal act of piracy. A few IDF piractes were taken below deck and treated.
The resisters’ interpretations were not debunked. The video does not show the blood of the passnger that had already been shot at by this stage. Isral have confiscated all videos and the fw we’ve seen have been heavilt edited Israeli versions of the few that were smuggled out.
The passengers that were shot received bullet wounds to the back of their heads, meaning they weer executed, so it’s clear that with or without non-violent civil disobedience,Israel had been given orders to shoot to kill.
It’s all to obvious what caused the deaths. Multiple gun shots at close range.
If Israel had never had a military blockade and had never commandeered the ship.
If Israel were not occupying Palestinian land, ethnically cleansing Palestinians, mass murdering them, driving them from their homes and building illegal settlements, Hamas would never have undertaken any terror campaigns against Israeli civilians. All of these policies began in 1948, but have continued unabated to this day.
If Israel had not created Hamas, there would be no Hamas.
Witty and Israel’s versinoof events is clearly false. Aylon and the Israeli government have made the most redoculous and baseless claims that Israel’s credibility is mud and they are seen for what they are, liars. The most bizarre claim of all is that there were 75 Al Qaeda members on board, which is laughable. If it were true, then why did Israel release them?
Richard Witty again exposes the true core belief of Zionism: “The lives of one thousand Palestinians aren’t even worth a single Jewish fingernail!”
American Ex-Marine & Gulf War vet O’Keefe says flotilla boat people were defending themselves & RW should move to the land he loves:
link to youtube.com
Amira Hass: To neutralize
Ziad Jilani had to be “neutralized”, because “somebody might have been hurt”. Palestinians are routinely denied basic rights (wall, siege, etc.), imprisoned, tortured and killed, because “somebody might get hurt”. Are some of these Palestinians innocent (asks the “fair-minded” Zionist)? Sure, but we have to play it safe, because “somebody might get hurt”.
The White House and Congress seem to agree with Huck.
“When it comes to Israel, the adventurous Gross can’t leave her comfort zone.”
Gross has endlessly repeated unsubstantiated claims about Iran. She has not only allowed guest to repeat them, she has repeated them herself.
Silent on the Goldstone Report. Silent on Israel’s execution of 9 on the Mavi Marmara. Doing Israel and the I lobbies work for them.
Gross has clearly always been a PEP (progressive except for Palestine)
The US (via Mitchell) vetoed a German-brokered deal with HAMAS that would have released Gilad Shalit last December.
link to aliabunimah.posterous.com
MESS Report / Israel has missed every opportunity to free Shalit
“Israel’s governments had three opportunities to free Shalit since he was taken prisoner in June 2006. One was right after the abduction, when Hamas’ leaders in the Gaza Strip were not yet fully aware of the “asset” they held and were subject to the Israeli military attack of Operation Summer Rains.”
link to haaretz.com
Der Spiegel reports that Netanyahu’s government rejected a German-arranged prisoner exchange that would have resulted in the release of Gilad Shalit: Israels Fehler: Streit um Niebels Gaza-Reise [Israel's Mistake: Niebel's Disputed Visit to Gaza]:
If this is true, it makes it pretty clear that Israel is not blockading Gaza in order to get Shalit released. Rather, it is making sure he is not released so that it can continue to use his being held as an excuse to continue the blockade.