How many lies can Alan Dershowitz tell in 60 seconds?

Israel/Palestine
on 45 Comments

How many lies can Alan Dershowitz tell in 60 seconds? There have been several posts concerning the recent debate between Dershowitz and Susan Abulhawa at the recent Boston Book Festival. Many have noted the dramatic contrast between the calm Abulhawa and the manic Dershowitz. A full dissection of Dershowitz’s falsehoods over the full hour of video would be too time-consuming, but let’s take a look at a single minute of his rantings, from about 34:15 to 35:15.

Denouncing the allegation of a massacre in Jenin, the Dersh lectured:

The massacre was the massacre of 55 Jewish people sitting at a Seder in the Park Hotel just before [the Israeli incursion into Jenin], and Palestinian terrorists from Jenin went in and murdered 55 Israeli family members having a seder. Israelis responded not from the air which they had the right to do but from the ground. . . There was no massacre in Jenin,. . it didn’t happen. There was a battle in Jenin in which fewer people died than were killed at the Park Hotel. This is total fiction, total false fiction. You must learn the facts.

Let’s leave aside the bigger picture of whether Israel’s actions constituted a “massacre,” “human rights violations,” or “war crimes” under various definitions of those terms. UN envoy Terje Roed-Larsen called the destruction “horrific beyond belief” and said it was “morally repugnant” that Israel denied access by emergency workers in for 11 days. Let’s just focus on Dershowitz’s smaller lies:

1) The Park Hotel suicide bombing claimed 30 lives, not 55.

2) The bombing was carried out by a single terrorist, not multiple terrorists.

3) The single bomber was from Tulkarem, not Jenin.

4) The victims were not all members of one family.

5) The Palestinian death count in Jenin was 52, greater than the number actually killed at the Park Hotel, but less than the number Dershowitz falsely claimed were killed.

6) Israel had no “right” to respond to the bombing by bombing Tulkarem or Jenin from the air, at least not under international law or under any widely accepted moral or ethical code. (Israel’s “right” to indiscriminately bomb any Palestinians for the actions of some does have many precedents, however. For example, in the aftermath of the Munich Olympic deaths of 11 Israelis, Israel bombed refugee camps in southern Lebanon and Syria, killing anywhere from 60 to hundreds of people unconnected with the Munich operation but guilty of the crime of being Palestinian.)

Not bad for one minute. Not a Dersh personal record, but not bad. I do love the end of this monologue, when Dershowitz says, with complete conviction and passion: “You must learn the facts.”

About David Samel

David Samel is an attorney in New York City.

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45 Responses

  1. Kathleen
    October 19, 2010, 10:02 pm

    Wish a fact checker organization would go through that debate and add up all of the lies. Dershowitz sure tried to put a great deal into Susans mouth that she never ever said..

    I was really floored when Dershowitz said that a Jenin massacre of Palestinians “did not happen” Susan came back with her own experience and then suggested looking at International reports

    Human Rights watch report.
    link to hrw.org

    UN Report
    link to un.org
    “49. There are allegations by the Palestinian Authority and human rights organizations that in the conduct of their operations in the refugee camp the Israeli Defence Forces engaged in unlawful killings, the use of human shields, disproportionate use of force, arbitrary arrests and torture and denial of medical treatment and access. IDF soldiers who participated in the Jenin incursion point to breaches of international humanitarian law on the part of Palestinian combatants within the camp, including basing themselves in a densely populated civilian area and the use of children to transport and possibly lay booby traps. ”

    • Shingo
      October 19, 2010, 11:35 pm

      I think this number is the number of lies that Dersh averaged per minute throughout his screed.

      He told at least this many when discussing Camp David.

    • Avi
      October 20, 2010, 12:32 am

      I have jumped down to post a comment without reading all the previous comments. It seems Kathleen has already posted the link to the UN report on this matter. Thanks, Kathleen.

    • eGuard
      October 20, 2010, 3:18 am

      I agree, Kathleen, this whole hour deserves a full fact checking. Is there a transcription? This sure should include the directors instructions: “points at opponent”, “shows signs of not listening”.

    • Citizen
      October 20, 2010, 10:01 am

      Human Rights Watch Report on Jenin: link to wsws.org
      Why BDS is so important & Why Susan’s book is too: Complicity of Israeli Cultural Industry–case in point: Waltz With Bashir: link to rethinkingmarxism.org

  2. Oscar
    October 19, 2010, 11:02 pm

    The Dersh. What an American tragedy. We mere mortals have been conditioned to believe that The Dersh is the greatest debater in American history — hey, he got Claus Von Bulow off, didn’t he? — and he wrote that famous first line in “Chutzpah” that “American Jews are second class citizens in thus country.”. Wow, anywhere he goes, he’s the effing smartest guy in the room.

    Well, that is, until he sets foot on stage with someone of Susan Abulhawa’s intellect.

    Susan wipes the floor with this rude Oscar-the-grouch, smashmouth, intellectually-deficient Harvard-embarrassment.

    Seriously, this guy must get no sleep at night. When the BDS brigade hit him at Harvard, he took pictures to show his contempt, but we knew it got under his skin big-time. He’s so used to a fawning MSM, israel-first media, he’s stunned to find himself booed at a literary event for his small-minded, bigoted screeds. You hear this guy and you’re shocked to believe anyone would take him seriously, unless you’re a logrolling, senile Zionist like Marty Peretz, or a genocide-aficionado like Martin Kramer. Or an endangered species, yellow journalist stenographer for Likud such as the New York Times.

  3. Avi
    October 19, 2010, 11:35 pm

    I’ve decided that I cannot remain silent anymore.

    Here are photos of Jenin, before and after Israeli soldier Moshe Nissim (Nickname: Kurdi Bear) and his friends were given free reign to bulldoze as they wished.

    Jenin Refugee Camp – 2002

    Good article, David.

    • pabelmont
      October 20, 2010, 6:16 am

      Thanks for the photos. Mincing words about “it was not a massacre” but “it was overreaching, there were war-crimes, blah blah” is stupid UNLESS there is a judge and jury, which there will never be. Read Goldstone Report.

      These pictures say a lot. Especially if (as stated in article) there was ONLY 1 Palestinian assassin and he was from a different town or camp.

      But, hey, if collective punishment is OK (as Israel, by its practice, appears to assert), then what does it matter if the right town or the wrong town is attacked, if one house or 100 houses are demolished, etc?

      The image of the 900-# gorilla in the room is a useful one. It does as it pleases, and best to get out of the way if you can. Law? Sshlaw!

    • Sumud
      October 20, 2010, 7:19 am

      I’ve decided that I cannot remain silent anymore.

      I’m glad.

      That photo shows Moshe Nissim’s medal-earning football stadium:

      “The flag was the most outstanding object in the camp. Reservists who went home on short leave came back with Beitar flags, just to imitate me. It made a lot of noise, my flag. The Golani soldiers were stunned. ‘You brought Beitar here,’ they told me. And I said: ‘I am going to make a Teddy stadium here. Don’t you worry.’.

      I had no mercy for anybody. I would erase anyone with the D-9, just so that our soldiers won’t expose themselves to danger. That’s what I told them. I was afraid for our soldiers. You could see them sleeping together, 40 soldiers in a house, all crowded. My heart went out for them. This is why I didn’t give a damn about demolishing all the houses I’ve demolished – and I have demolished plenty. By the end, I built the ‘Teddy’ football stadium there.

      I couldn’t stop. I wanted to work and work. There was this Golani officer who gave us orders by radio – I drove him mad. I kept begging for more and more missions. On Sunday, after the fighting was over, we got orders to pull our D-9′s out of the area, and stop working on our ‘football stadium’, because the army didn’t want the cameras and press to see us working. I was really upset, because I had plans to knock down the big sign at the entrance of Jenin – three poles with a picture of Arafat. But on Sunday, they pulled us away before I had time to do it.

      No one expressed any reservations against doing it. Not only me. Who would dare speak? If anyone would as much as open his mouth, I would have buried him under the D-9. This is the reason I didn’t mind seeing the hundred by hundred (7)we’ve flattened. As far as I am concerned, I left them with a football stadium, so they can play. This was our gift to the camp. Better than killing them. They will sit quietly.

    • Kathleen
      October 20, 2010, 10:01 am

      Thanks

    • Avi
      October 20, 2010, 12:25 pm

      pabelmont, Sumud,

      Thank you.

  4. Avi
    October 20, 2010, 12:30 am

    I would also like to add that the bloodbath in Jenin was carried out as a form of collective punishment. It was NOT an isolated case as the Israeli military launched similar attacks throughout other areas of the West Bank.

    Furthermore, the suicide bombing which — according to Dershowitz — precipitated the onslaught in Jenin was in fact preceded by an escalation in Israeli military attacks on civilian areas throughout the occupied West Bank, including extrajudicial assassinations and aerial bombardment of Gaza and the West Bank.

    (Emphasis added)

    Since the outbreak of crisis in September 2000 [The Second Intifadah], the origins of which have been comprehensively set out in the report of the Sharm el-Sheikh Fact-Finding Committee headed by former Senator George Mitchell, there has been sustained violence between the parties, fluctuating in intensity, causing by 7 May 2002 the deaths of 441 Israelis and 1,539 Palestinians. By the beginning of 2002, the parties were already locked in an accelerating cycle of violent attacks.

    [...]

    A total of 497 Palestinians were killed in the course of the IDF reoccupation of Palestinian area A from 1 March to 7 May 2002 and in the immediate aftermath[...]

    [...]

    Israeli military retaliation for terrorist attacks was often carried out against Palestinian Authority security forces and installations. This had the effect of severely weakening the Authority’s capacity to take effective action against militant groups that launched attacks on Israelis. Militant groups stepped into this growing vacuum and increased their attacks on Israeli civilians.

    [...]

    It was against this backdrop that the most extensive Israeli military incursions in a decade, Operation Defensive Shield [Jenin Massacre], were carried out.

    [...]

    There were numerous reports of IDF compelling Palestinian civilians to accompany them during house searches, check suspicious subjects, stand in the line of fire from militants and in other ways protect soldiers from danger [...] and so as to avoid all doubt, the [IDF] has decided to immediately issue an unequivocal order … that forces in the field are absolutely forbidden to use civilians as a means of ‘living shield’”.

    [...]

    [...] more than 8,500 Palestinians were arrested between 27 February and 20 May. Reportedly, most of the 2,500 Palestinians arrested during the first wave of incursions in February and March were released within a week, whereas many of the more than 6,000 Palestinians arrested [...] after 29 March were held for longer periods without any outside contact.

    Over 2,800 refugee housing units were damaged and 878 homes were demolished or destroyed during the reporting period, leaving more than 17,000 people homeless or in need of shelter rehabilitation;

    And finally,

    Israel’s obligations in the Occupied Palestinian Territory are set out in the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, to which Israel is a High Contracting Party. Palestinian residents of the Occupied Territory are “protected persons” under the Convention, which provides that they may not be wilfully killed, tortured, taken as hostages or suffer humiliating or degrading treatment. Israel has obligations not to engage in acts of collective punishment or reprisals and is to refrain from appropriating or extensively destroying the property of protected persons unless such destruction is “rendered absolutely necessary by military operations”.

    Israel is in blatant violation of this law and refuses — as the following paragraph shows — to fully comply with the Geneva Convention.

    The Government of the State of Israel has not, as at the submission of this report, accepted the de jure applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 to all Territory occupied since 1967. Israel has stated that it has undertaken to comply with the humanitarian provisions of the Convention in its administration of the Occupied Palestinian Territory. All other High Contracting Parties, as well as the International Committee of the Red Cross, maintain that the Convention does apply de jure to the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

    Source: link to un.org

    • Sumud
      October 20, 2010, 7:41 am

      The paragraph following the last one you quote Avi:

      Consequently, over the last 35 years, the Palestinian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including Jerusalem, has been left without any effective protection against Israel’s oppressive policies and measures, including its excessive use of lethal force. The absence of enforcement has fostered an environment in which Israel acts with impunity, disregarding international humanitarian law, international law and the will of the international community.

      None of this could happen without the US constantly using their Security Council veto at the UN to shield Israel. There should have been a UN peace-keeping force in the OPTs since at least 1987 to protect the Palestinian population, and there should be UN sanctions on Israel, especially to prohibit the transfer of arms to a serial human rights violator.

    • David Samel
      October 20, 2010, 4:38 pm

      Avi, the grotesque details of the “incursion” are indeed more important than Dersh’s petty lies. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting on that.

  5. kalithea
    October 20, 2010, 1:58 am

    Dersh actually said something to the effect of: No one clapped for me; everyone clapped at the end of her introduction.

    BDS really scares the willies out of Dersh. Everyone BDS!!! BDS!!!

    • Taxi
      October 20, 2010, 6:21 am

      BDS!! BDS!! BDS!!!

      Hey I noticed that the statement that got the most applause in the room was when Susan told Dersh that he is being “unseemly for a Harvard professor”. Heheheh.

      For me his perpetually nervous foot spoke more truth than anything that came out of the hole above his chin.

      • Sumud
        October 20, 2010, 7:27 am

        For me his perpetually nervous foot spoke more truth than anything that came out of the hole above his chin.

        And the constant reaching for his water bottle; hearing the non-hasbara line must leave a bitter taste in his mouth…

      • pulaski
        October 20, 2010, 10:09 am

        I thought that was too generous to other Harvard professors — the place is not known for high ethical standards. For example, crooked economist Martin Feldstein (see link to tinyrevolution.com).

        On the other hand, I’ve known some good biologists from Harvard. Still, I wouldn’t let my kids go there.

    • Kathleen
      October 20, 2010, 10:05 am

      BDS! And the 10 groups on ADL’s hit list. I really appreciate Allison Weir’s “If Americans Knew”

      Allison is wonderful, accessible and will help you with any information you need or want.

      Great website. And great access to materials to hand out where ever you go
      link to ifamericansknew.org

  6. radii
    October 20, 2010, 2:56 am

    le Douche, er, I mean the Dersh is the best weather vane to determine what’s going on in the US israel-first crowd and by extension where the heads are at in the leadership back in Dersh’s home country of israel … clearly they are desperate – which is good because they are finally succumbing to the pressure, and bad because they will just get more vicious (if that’s possible) since escalation of horror is all that they know

    the narrative has shifted to “those who seek to delegitimize israel” which is, of course, a very broad brush that includes anyone who doesn’t support the radical terror of the Likkud point of view and plans … Dersh telegraphs their growing frustration at not being able to control the narrative nor the message anymore … I’m convinced that the couple of major internet undersea cables that were “accidentally” cut in the past few years are test-runs for israel and/or the US to shut down open communication when the War Party gets really really desperate

    Dersh doesn’t even bother to try to cover his lies with a mix of truth anymore – just shout louder, longer and whine and wave arms and froth at the mouth as you spew the lies and you may fool some of the people

    • Antidote
      October 20, 2010, 10:45 am

      “… the Dersh is the best weather vane to determine what’s going on in the US israel-first crowd ”

      Fair enough, but do keep in mind that the Dersh is also the prototypical aging academic who realizes that after riding on an opportunistic wave to the top, nobody will read his books or take them seriously anymore soon after or, in this case, long before he retires. Why do you think he’s writing novels now? Well, people will always like novels. But no serious scholar on the I/P conflict reads Dershowitz.

      I would also be careful to read too much into his jihad against Finkelstein, along the lines of the influence of ‘the Lobby’ etc. Accuse any so-called expert and authority in any academic field of fraudulent claims, lies and plagiarism, and see how fast you are off the tenure-track. Instant career suicide for the one who calls the bluff, and the more substantial the case, the worse the punishment, hysteria, slanderous accusations, and pulling of strings behind the scenes, whatever is available. Remember how Camille Paglia went on lecture tours accompanied by body guards after she took on the post-structuralists and feminists? Power structures have always interfered with the search for truth, from the Church cracking down on Galileo to wealthy donors and special interest groups regulating academic discourse today. And then there’s the narcissism and other neuroses rife among academics that hamper any rational debate or inquiry. Job applicants are regularly advised to check out the publications of search committee members, and prepare some flattering remarks. That’s how you get ahead.

      This is a ‘tantrum’ unworthy of a Harvard professor? I’d call it business as usual in the hallowed halls of academia. Below the Ivy League, it gets worse:

      “What prompted the head of Fort Hays State University’s cross-examination debate team, Bill Shanahan, to drop his pants and expose his rear to his rhetorical opponent, the University of Pittsburgh debate director Shanara Reid-Brinkley? Why did it take almost six months for the video hit the Web? And what was the dispute about, anyway?”

      link to insidehighered.com

      The video has been removed.

  7. eGuard
    October 20, 2010, 3:38 am

    That man at 35:12: “This is [...] false fiction”. So then?

    Any reaction from the BBF-organisation on this deliteration?

  8. RoHa
    October 20, 2010, 6:02 am

    How much can Dersh say in sixty seconds? It will all be lies.

  9. pabelmont
    October 20, 2010, 6:22 am

    Imagine this out-of-control guy as ambassador of Israel in USA or UN. The very thought is ludicrous. But fun to imagine. Like old three-stooges movies perhaps.

    • mig
      October 20, 2010, 9:44 am

      Like John Bolton ?

    • David Samel
      October 20, 2010, 4:42 pm

      As far as I can tell, the only source for the story that Dersh was offered the job is Dersh himself. That doesn’t necessarily mean it must be untrue, but there’s no reason to believe it is, unless it is corroborated. Bibi also may have said, tongue-in-cheek, Alan, why don’t you be our ambassador. Who knows.

      In fact, Oren is a more polished version of the Dersh, one who would be more hesitant to tell easily verifiable lies, but one who has the same lack of integrity.

      • Sumud
        October 20, 2010, 4:54 pm

        At least Oren has the guts to don a uniform. Dersh reminds me of very regular MW regular: all talk and no action.

  10. eljay
    October 20, 2010, 6:39 am

    >> The massacre was the massacre of 55 Jewish people sitting at a Seder in the Park Hotel just before [the Israeli incursion into Jenin], and Palestinian terrorists from Jenin went in and murdered 55 Israeli family members having a seder.

    “The sky that day was blue and, during that day, there was a blueness to the colour of the sky.” – Sounds very impressive when you stretch out a simple comment through repetition.

    That being said, was it Jewish people or an Israeli family? Big difference. Especially in light of the rich and diverse democracy that is Israel.

  11. Richard Witty
    October 20, 2010, 8:36 am

    There were many falsehoods in the details.

    The gist though was of conflict, not of unilateral “massacre”. To ignore the elements of conflict, of terror even, is to ignore a fundamental component of the event.

    If you are looking for propaganda, then “massacre” is a nice hot word. If you are a sober analyst, seeking the greater good rather than a pendulum swing, then conflict is the accurate word.

    Which is a lie?

    • eljay
      October 20, 2010, 9:50 am

      >> There were many falsehoods in the details. The gist though was of conflict …

      It’s nice to see that when a turd like Dersh argues using “many falsehoods” and highly-inflammatory words such as “massacre”, you refrain from condemning him for “destabilization” and “maximalism” (among other things) and, instead, you take the time to admonish the people who rightly condemn his lies and hateful speech.

      Your hypocrisy and your fraudulent “humanism” shines brighter than ever. Keep up the good work.

      DON’T FEED THE TROLL!!

    • David Samel
      October 20, 2010, 4:46 pm

      Richard, the “gist” is that Israel went in with a massive show of force, destroyed hundreds of dwellings, and killed dozens of people. Some brave young men resisted, but their weapons were relative pea-shooters. “Massacre” was a word famously used by Shimon Peres to describe the operation.

  12. Citizen
    October 20, 2010, 9:27 am

    In his (more or less) autobigraphy, published in 1992, when he was middle-aged and had decided to reveal a profile of his generation of American Jews, their legacy for their children, Dershi took his stance: Demand to be first class citizens, don’t worry about being a lightening rod for anti-semites. Chutzpah! He said in that titled book that chutzpah could be positive or negative–it all depended on where you stood in any activity at issue. He trotted out some of the old yiddish definitions of chutzpah. You have chutzpah if you murder your parents and then throw yourself on the mercy of the court because you are an orphan. As his career as the greatest defender of human rights took off, he took the charge of chutzpah as a wonderful testament he was a very admirable Jewish man. He viewed having chutzpah as great praise. He became an American icon by defending
    a black sports hero against the charge of murder of two whites. If the glove fits, you must acquit. He’s been hailed by Jews as the Number One defender of the state of Israel. As a teen-ager he had a reoccuring nightmare–in his dreams he was asked to defend Mengele, the notorious Nazi doctor. If memory serves, he never made the decision in his dreams.
    He grew up in an insular world of Jews and American baseball; his first experience with anti-semitism was when he was told, nearing law school graduation, of the quiet discrimination against Jews in white shoe law firms. He said further that he had not realized while attending Yale Law that there had been WASP clubs that only WASPS could join. He was told that there was also discrimination against newly minted Irish and Italian lawyers (and doctors). He said that during the subsequent 1960s it was actually a plus socially to be a Jew in America (and not for just the previously favored Jewish Americans of German background). Now, nearing two decades later, I imagine he’d agree that Jewish Americans have themselves become The Establishment. In Chutzpah, again–published in 1992, he described the Israel Lobby as the most effective lobby in the history of western civilization. First class American citizenship PLUS. But, there’s still civil rights to defend with gusto! Dershie also said in said book that Israel was “the Jew among nations.” But he and his generation never rushed over to Israel to join the IDF. They chose instead to sit in the comfy bleachers and help the new victim of anti-semitism as spectators, living quite comfortably thank you in the Goyland originally created mostly by the WASPS who use to hurl odd words like “bolderdash” at his mouth when he argued with them in academic debate. Chutzpah. If the shoe fits…Nuclear-armed Israel with the 4th most lethal army in the world, a newly minted member of the organization for the top national economies in the world, right up there among the top in the retail arms industry, supplied by the lone super power’s blank checks–is the victim. The Palestinian people (and their biological brethren) are the perps. Every Palestinian baby is a perp in the making. “That woman,” and her book is a lying perp, and everyone who focuses on Israel’s activities, is critical of what Israel does, is a perp, a predator roaming the neighborhood. They should be directing their criticism just as much at all the real evil-doing nations. Hypocrites all! They will all stab you in the back, given half a chance. That is the lesson of history. Dershie will quit being a Jew only after the last anti-semite is dead. If that’s not a good reason to live, then what is?

  13. Chu
    October 20, 2010, 9:37 am

    wow, David, many recognize Dershowitz is mentally unstable, but this reveals him as a pathological liar. This is bad news for Harvard.
    Having someone spout so many lies in such a short period is damaging to their establishment. In the Old South Church no less. What a guy…

    • Kathleen
      October 20, 2010, 10:27 am

      His arguments/debates in the past have demonstrated that he is a pathological liar. Yet Harvard keeps him.

      • Antidote
        October 20, 2010, 10:59 am

        What’s another ‘pathological liar’ at Harvard or any other university?

        Ah! Now I’ve done Philosophy,
        I’ve finished Law and Medicine, 355
        And sadly even Theology:
        Taken fierce pains, from end to end.
        Now here I am, a fool for sure!
        No wiser than I was before:
        Master, Doctor’s what they call me, 360
        And I’ve been ten years, already,
        Crosswise, arcing, to and fro,
        Leading my students by the nose,
        And see that we can know – nothing!
        It almost sets my heart burning. 365
        I’m cleverer than all these teachers,
        Doctors, Masters, scribes, preachers:
        I’m not plagued by doubt or scruple,
        Scared by neither Hell nor Devil –
        Instead all Joy is snatched away, 370
        What’s worth knowing, I can’t say,
        I can’t say what I should teach
        To make men better or convert each.
        And then I’ve neither goods nor gold,
        No worldly honour, or splendour hold: 375
        Not even a dog would play this part!
        So I’ve given myself to Magic art…

        Goethe (Faust I)

    • David Samel
      October 20, 2010, 4:50 pm

      Chu, before I even viewed the debate, I wrote to Phil that I had spent too much time over the years fact-checking Dersh, and was astonished at his willingness to blatantly lie. His pathology has been in evidence for a long time. In fact, reading The Case for Israel and actually scrutinizing the footnotes provides an endless source of amusement and amazement.

      • radii
        October 20, 2010, 4:59 pm

        the truth is never the point for extremists and demagogues … people who care about the truth spend time fact-checking and can repeatedly point out the lies, meanwhile the demagogue has moved on to new venues to spout the lies and new ways to sell them

      • Chu
        October 21, 2010, 7:22 am

        I bet it does provide endless sources of amazement. Finklestein has called him on his bluffs on a few occasions. It’s helpful to see your breakdown of the validity of Dersh’s claims. Thanks.

  14. AreaMan
    October 20, 2010, 10:03 am

    The Larsen comment was made in the first weeks after the attack on Jenin, when the casualty counts were still wildly inflated.

    Yes leave aside the question of whether the attack on Jenin was a “massacre,” “human rights violations,” or “war crimes”. Because it was none of those things. But definitely put the words in your article to leave a bad impression.

    Otherwise, the Samel article is just nit-picking, not touching the core of what Dershowitz said. So what if the bomber came from different town or had help on site?

    The attack on Jenin was an attack on arms factories, which are most efficiently hit by air attack. But to spare the lives of Arabs as much as possible, Israel went in with infantry, which can be more precise.

    The Park Hotel bombing was aimed at civilians and only killed civilians, plus the bomber himself. The attack on Jenin was aimed at military facilities and killed combatants. Since the Palestinian combatants don’t wear uniforms, it’s hard to get an exact count.

    • David Samel
      October 20, 2010, 4:56 pm

      AreaMan, I’m not surprised that someone accused me of nit-picking. The lies I exposed were, for the most part, petty, but then ask yourself why he bothered to grossly misstate facts where you thought he was basically telling the truth. This is nothing unusual for Dersh, and the subject of my article was his utter contempt for the truth rather than any bigger issues.

      As for the big picture of what happened in Jenin, I can only say you’re a very willing dupe for the apologists for mass murder. You’re predisposed to gullibly accept any excuse given for those on your side who commit atrocities. I can’t really take you seriously. Your acceptance of the line that the Israelis acted “to spare the lives of Arabs as much as possible” says everything about your viewpoint.

    • Shingo
      October 20, 2010, 6:26 pm

      “The attack on Jenin was aimed at military facilities and killed combatants. Since the Palestinian combatants don’t wear uniforms, it’s hard to get an exact count.”

      I see, so let me get this straight.

      You claim that the attack was aimed at combatants, but you don’t know if they were combatants. Or are you simply arguing that those that were killed were combatants because they were killed?

  15. Kathleen
    October 20, 2010, 10:12 am

    o.k. I just googled this statement “55 Jewish people sitting at a Seder in the Park Hotel just before [the Israeli incursion into Jenin] were murdered” And googled all sorts of combination’s . Nothing came up.

    Well this came up
    link to mondoweiss.net

    What do people know about Dershowitz’s claims that 55 Jewish people were murdered at a Seder dinner just before the Israeli incursion. Is there any truth to that at all?

    Hope professional fact checkers fact check that scramble between Susan and Dershowitz

  16. Kathleen
    October 20, 2010, 10:26 am

    Started going through this list to find out about the 55 Jewish people that Dershowitz claimed were killed at Jenin as they ate their Seder dinner. Can not find anything to verify his claims. But plenty of other descriptions of Israeli’s being murdered. And the descriptions turn my stomach and tears well up in my eyes just as they do when I read UN reports or Amnesty Reports about the murders of Palestinians by Israeli’s.
    link to adl.org

    Now I have to admit when I think about someone anyone coming onto property that I own or have lived on for decades (in Palestinians case centuries) and they threaten, kill, intimidate, destroy ancient olive trees, bulldoze my families home, spit on my children, build a wall on internationally recognized land belonging to “my people” (have a hard time with this concept of feeling from both points of views) but hey I am trying to put myself in the Palestinians shoes. Would I fight back? Hell yes! Would I target innocent people? Hell no.

    Are illegal, cruel, and rabid Israeli settlers innocent people?

    • yonira
      October 20, 2010, 4:59 pm

      Here is what he was referring to, not sure where he got the 55 # from though it was 30:

      link to en.wikipedia.org

      And the response:

      link to en.wikipedia.org

      Perhaps he was purposely inflating the numbers like was done following the ‘Jenin Massacre’ or perhaps he is just old and senile.

      • Kathleen
        November 20, 2010, 10:57 am

        Can you find this anywhere else? Wikipedia not always a reliable source

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