The Palestinian Authority (PA) has offered to recognize Israel “by whatever name it applies to itself in accordance with international law” in exchange for “a map of the borders of the state of Israel which they want us to recognize.” This according to senior Palestinian official,Yasser Abed Rabbo, in an interview with Agence France-Presse (AFP).
The offer is a response to the US and Israeli demand that the PA recognize Israel as a state of the Jewish people in exchange for a settlement freeze extension.
I think this is a very clever démarche by the Palestinian Authority. If the peace process were a chess game, it could be a winning move. However, in the real world, the Americans will quietly, privately, yet forcefully tell Abbas, "no way Mahmoud" and go back to business as usual.
The bottom line is Netanyahu is not willing to seriously talk about giving up any of the West Bank.
The question is: Is Obama? Is JStreet? I am not holding my breath for the answer.
Only if Penny Pritzker and her close friends say it’s ok.
Too, your important ending questions should also be directed to Dennis Ross.
Very smart move by the PA. Beat Israel at its own game. People around the world will ask why Israel can’t define its borders. 43 years of Yesha effort could be nullified.
ding ding ding
Andrew Sullivan, on the Obama DOJ, and it’s defense of DOMA and DADT:
Or perhaps it is better put this way: if this president cannot take a stand on civil rights when it is supported by three quarters of the public, when will he?
*******
Perhaps the PA have asked themselves the same question. And, I think, where Obama and Co. are deaf and dumb to popular sentiment, and what it can acheive for you politically, the Palestinians are showing that they are getting a grasp of the dynamic; they have done the calculus and decided that they have enough support for bold action.
If anything, Obama has shown Abbas and Co. what timidity and half measures gets you- and it ain’t so good. The Palestinian’s are taking international support out for a spin- hopefully this challenge is a sign of things to come….
“in exchange for “a map of the borders of the state of Israel which they want us to recognize.”
Oh this is great. Back to the facts. The borders. The ongoing land grabs.
Finally! The vital and fundamental question of borders is dug up from its sealed grave and its effective resuscitation is taking place.
Just watch the predictable and oncoming jack-boot song and dance response from the zionist campsters who will do what they can to bury this question back under earth and dirt again.
New IDF Hasbara website targeted at the british media:
link to hurryupharry.org
un(justjournalism.com)
I’ve been asking that the PA ask this question since about 2003. Or longer. Some things are so obvious they escape notice. Although officials from the PA and other Palestinian political entities have asked this, none ever surfaced in the way this one is, as part of what may end up being an official exchange of border or map descriptions between the PA and the Israeli government.
I remember during Oslo and during the Clinton negotiations, maps would surface, but none seemed to have anything close to a description stating Israel might abide or feel bound by the borders drawn in them.
OTOH, I’m skeptical anything will come of this.
Archbishop Tutu, Former President Jimmy Carter, Norman Finkelstein, Vanessa Redgrave, Edward Said, Saed Erekat, Art and Peggy Gish, members of the UN and many more have been asking this same question for decades at this point. As well as other Palestinian leaders.
Great to see others have been jumping on this human rights bus based on the facts. But inferring that this point has never been made is naive. This point has been made over and over again by many. The border questions based on International agreements and International recognition .
The facts on the ground have been that Israel has never ever stopped expanding and building more illegal settlements. Never has there ever been a complete freeze. Never
the other night Jon Stewart (over the last few years touching this issue, even if inaccurately) showed a map of Palestine based on the 67 line with absolutely no illegal settlements in the West Bank as if the West Bank were a contiguous piece of land. Terribly inaccurate and Jon Stewart knows this. (one would think) That is unless he has his head up where the sun does not shine
Interactive map
link to peacenow.org
Nothing would prevent the Palestinians from “supporting Netanyahu” by uttering the same formula used by the US government: “It is a state for the Jewish people. It is a state for other citizens of other faiths as well.”
The offer to recognize Israel “by whatever name it applies to itself in accordance with international law” is a corollary to the demand that the US and Israel provide “a map of the borders of the state of Israel which they want us to recognize.” The United States government does not regard the “Jewish people” concept as a concept of international law. See Marjorie M. Whiteman’s Digest of International Law (Department of State Publication 8290, released September 1967), Volume 8, page 35. Israel is still struggling to come up with an accetable legal definition of the Jewish people too. See “How Should a Court Deal with a Primary Question that the Legislature Seeks to Avoid? The Israeli Controversy over Who Is a Jew as an Illustration”, Gidon Sapir, Bar-Ilan University, Faculty of Law.
ot
Trying to find out if David Be’eri the guy who ran into the Palestinian boy and then drove away if he was arrested. Three other stone throwers have been arrested.
Also wondering if anyone knows if any U.S. taxpayers funds go into supporting David Be’eri’s land stealing organization Elad? Does anyone know the answers to these questions. Looking but can not find.
link to tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com
Silwan: The Blasting Cap
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By Bernard Avishai – October 12, 2010, 5:35AM
Last June, I wrote about Silwan, where the Jewish settler group Elad–with the cooperation of the Jerusalem municipality–has been planting a vanguard of extremist families. In the foreground, the desire to expand an archaeological dig, the so-called City of David, and Jewish tourist “gardens.” In the background, the desire to expand the Israeli footprint in East Jerusalem–in of all places, this most densely populated and volatile neighborhood, which enjoys virtually no municipal services.
Now swallow hard and look at this video from last Friday. The driver of the car is the head of Elad, David Be’eri, who claimed “his life was in danger.” Presumably, an “existential threat,” which required the reassertion of “deterrence.”
The kids were probably the same kids who had joined our peaceful demonstration last June; but the neighborhood was recently inflamed by the shooting death by an Elad security guard of Samir Sirhan, a 32-year old father of five. When the city descends into Bosnia-style civil violence, this is how it will start.
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Who supports this organization? Are their donations tax exempt? Why are donations not investigated by Stuart Levey. They are basically a terrorist organization operating in illegally occupied territories. Do any U.S. tax dollars go to this group?
link to cityofdavid.org.il
Al Jazeera reported:
He was taken in for questioning by police and released on bail. Israeli police officers say the investigation against him will continue.
So that sounds like an arrest, but I won’t be holding my breath that anything will happen. The Haaretz article on the hit-and-run made no mention of arrest or bail and I didn’t look at any others in the Israeli press.
And are the children they arrested also released?
I don’t know potsherd. Kathleen suggests they have been in the post I replied to~ hey Kathleen where’d you read that?
I misread your q potsherd, i thought you were asking for confirmation the kids had been arrested..
So Ir David Foundation has an office in Brooklyn.
link to cityofdavid.org.il
Who funds this land grabbing (in my book) terrorist organization should be investigated by Stuart Levey, Undersecretary of the Treasury for Financial and Terrorism Intelligence
link to raceforiran.com
Israel should accept the proposal and have the negotiations only be a discussion of how to get it done, not whether.
Okay, RW, that’s a reasonable comment. Assuming that the majority of Palestinians would accept a state along the 67 borders, that is and there I don’t know. The Palestinian right of return is going to be a big sticking point.
The nice thing about having an Israeli government this far right is that it’s going to be difficult to blame the Palestinians when these talks finally fall apart, as seems likely. Difficult, but not impossible for our lovely press corps, as shown by the most recent Mondoweiss post (as of my writing this.) If the Israelis had some pseudo-liberal at the helm, they’d know enough to be able to make an inadequate offer and put the blame on the Palestinians when they refused it, but Netanyahu seems exceptionally clumsy.
It is very frustrating to retain support for Israel when Netanyahu is prime minister and he is in the “center”.
But, Israel is important to retain as Israel. I support (more than accept) the Palestinian assertion of “define your proposed borders already”.
Aw give ‘em a break. We still need to see how many more Shinlung believe they are a lost tribe and want to make aliyah, and there are the de-racinated Peruvian Indians who convert to Orthodox Judaism and migrate to Israel, and even the Venda tribe in South Africa is sure that it is a lost tribe and the details need to be worked out. Furthermore, and this is a big one, the Pakhtoons of Afghanistan and Pakistan will tell you that they are actually one of the lost tribes for sure. If they decide to get in on the act there’s no telling how far those borders need to expand. Oh and what about the various syncretic kook quasi Judaic religions springing up here and there from the US to Japan? No fair at all to limit Israel.
Gideon Levy “Israel is addicted to occupation”
link to therealnews.com
From Israel’s perspective, it cannot set its borders due to the so-called demographic threat that which the Palestinians on both side of the Green Line pose. The moment Israel consists of 100% Jews, then and only then will it set its borders.
So, the obvious question is then: “What territory constitutes this “Israel” which will consist of 100% Jews”?
The answer to that question is all the land from the Jordan River to the sea, with the exception of a few cantons in Ramallah, Nablus and other major areas designated as “Area A” under the Oslo accords.
As an aside, I’d like to address the issue of non-Jewish identity in Israel.
Potsherd disagreed the other day on the use of the term “Palestinian citizens of Israel” or “Israel’s Palestinian minority”.
The objections which I have already raised stem from the fact that I have worked and interacted with countless Palestinian citizens of Israel who define themselves as such. Potsherd is under the impression that what he perceives while living in the United States is an accurate representation. It’s safe to say that he came to that conclusion based on articles written by Jewish authors and Jewish-owned newspapers in Israel.
Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge, Postsherd does not read Arabic. So, he is not attuned to the literature or the newspapers that are written by said minority.
In addition, Potsherd claimed that I was no different than others who seek to impose labels on the Palestinians in my insistence on the term “Palestinians of Israel” since, after all, I was defining that minority’s identity for it. Of course, such a claim would be accurate if I pulled that terminology out of a hat, as opposed to basing it on concrete information and extensive experience. I wouldn’t be insisting vehemently on this very point had I had any doubts or lacked the experience to support my position.
Israel’s non-Jewish minority often uses alternative names to define itself. They often use “Arabs of ’48″ to distinguish themselves from the 1967 Arabs (i.e. Occupied Territories). Sometimes they use the term “Arabs of Inside” (Translated from the Arabic Arab al-Dakhel) as opposed to the 300 million Arabs who are outside of Israel’s borders.
Within the political, social and cultural context, none of the terms which I have listed in the previous paragraph mean that this minority defines itself by the broad term “Arabs” citizens of the state of Israel. That is to say that while the State of Israel uses labels such as “Israeli Arabs” in order to divide the Palestinian community into fragments — easily controlled fragments — it has chosen to create artificial divisions. And so, one finds that despite the fact the Bedouin are Muslim, Palestinian and speak Arabic, the State of Israel defines them as “Bedouin”, and treats them — through specific social and economic policies — differently from other non-Jewish groups within Israel.
The same artificially created division can be seen in Israel’s designation of the Druze as a distinct ethnic minority, much in the same way Israel considers the Bedouin to be a distinct ethnic group.
Having said all that, Postsherd needs to be aware of the fact that from whatever source he gets his information, he needs to keep in mind that any Palestinian and any Arab — whether in Lebanon or Jordan — when speaking to reporters will use terminology that is widespread, common in the West so as not to confuse audiences/readers. But, that doesn’t mean that he or she define themselves by those terms. It’s merely a matter of making a distinction that has — unfortunately — been promulgated by the Israeli media and the Western media which take their cues from the “official” Israeli establishment.
But, should one of those reporters make a point of asking, specifically, how that non-Jewish citizen defines himself or herself, they are bound to hear the words “Palestinians” somewhere in that definition.
And finally, I would like to point out that the use of terminology depends on whether the interviewer is speaking with an educated and politically aware non-Jewish Israeli citizen or one is speaking with someone who understands the power of language and the power of certain terms. The average person on the street may not understand the full repercussions of the differences in terminology. That person will merely repeat whatever he hears on the radio or on the TV.
By the way, the non-Jewish minority in Israel often fears using the terms “Palestinian citizens of Israel” lest they be accused of treason by the State and its agents. Hence, Ahmad Tibi — a member of the Israeli Knesset — might very well refer to himself when speaking to the media as “An Israeli Arab”.
So, all these factors need, nay must, be taken into consideration when one seeks to use one name or another.
My conviction and insistence on the terms in question stems from a consideration and understanding of all these factors.
either not reading or not recalling the original conversation w/potsherd i cannot comment on what he said but i’ve been informed many times by palestinians, (american, israeli, gaza, WB or otherwise) they all self identify as palestinian like you said (they are bound to hear the words “Palestinians” somewhere in that definition. ).
when i was traveling on an alternative tour inside israel some of our guides were palestinian w/israeli citizenship (48′s). on the long bus rides we’d talk about lots of things and i asked them ‘do you always self identify as palestinian?’ and both our palestinian guides stated all palestinians inside israel self identify as palestinian except as such time as it may cause them political discord. our jewish israeli guides (left of course) always reference palestinians as such too whether they were israeli or not. it is what’s respectful. we all talked about it for quite awhile.
it is fairly obvious lots of jewish israelis don’t like using the term palestinian. i recall once when i was at the border of egypt right before entering eliat and i made reference to this palestinian israeli and this woman tried to correct me and said she was sure they thought of themselves are arab israelis. she wouldn’t recognize palestinian israelis. i told her ‘maybe in your presences’ but i know i’m right.
also at the sabeel conference i went to a workshop w/the stunning lubna masarwa about permits. she told us some palestinians refer to themselves as 48′s or 67′s .
Really enjoy hearing about your direct conversations with people and your experiences. Thanks. The explanation makes sense
Avi ~ I really don’t wish to get between you and potsherd, but I wonder if you caught potsherd’s response to a later post of mine on the topic:
link to mondoweiss.net
As I wrote, naming is highly context dependent. That the 20% of non-jewish Israelis identify as Palestinian is obvious. But also, the generic terms “jew” and “arab” remain in use. It all comes down to who is describing who. In some cases it’s highly politicised (ie. Jewish Israelis refusal to speak the word “Palestinian”.) I think you and potsherd are possibly more on the same page than you think.
If Israel doesn’t define itself, including the issuess of what borders it has and what “Jewish” means, how can anyone be asked to recognize it.
Exactly. Israeli leaders and illegal settlers have been banking and expanding illegal settlements based on their unwillingness to acknowledge International decisions, UN resolution 242 etc. Spin, turn. spin some more
Here is what Israel thinks of borders
link to time.com
These are weird questions, [1] what are Israel’s boundaries today and [2] what boundaries are they proposing. We know that [a] there are no declared boundaries today (apart from non-Palestinian borders with Egypt and Jordan) and [b] the future-borders are matters for negotiation, not for declaration. Or so they keep telling us, tho this constant negotiating seems more like a deliberate refusal to come to agreement than to reach agreement.
So what was the question again? What is the PLO asking? Perhaps they are merely making it clear that they are not about to declare AS THE BOUNDARIES OF A JEWISH DEMOCRACY any boundaries that are not well-defined and also offered as a possible final-status boundaries. All well and good, but what about the 1948 refugees and progeny? (Many of whom live, BTW, in Gaza).
To survive, Zionism must constantly expand geographically, including the promise of such expansion; otherwise, it will suffocate and die. Borders mean the end of Zionism.
It is a good basic question, and needs repeating ad infinitum in the media so that people who don’t follow the politics understand the simple message: Israel refuses to set borders, so how can anybody negotiate with them or ‘recognise’ an undefined entity.
The other side of the message should be: Of course Israel has set its borders. Where are their border posts and where do the army and navy patrol? In the East it is at the Allenby Bridge and Golan Heights. In the West it is off the coast down to southern Gaza. In other words the whole of ‘Greater’ Israel. This is the truth which they avoid in international discussions. They control and consider the whole area theirs. The only compromise up for discussion is a few disconnected ghettos in the West Bank which will have no features resembling a state, and Gaza. They are simply demanding that Palestinians sign up to their own subjugation and a statelessness which will ensure they have no rights except the meagre and elastic ones Israel decrees they can have. Israel will control their economy, movement, water, building – basically their existence. Recognition of Israel as a Jewish state is simply recognition of their own denial of rights in their own country, and the rights of millions of foreigners who take precedence over them by dint of belonging to one cultural tribe.
It cannot be forgotten that Solomon ruled by God’s will and mandate, according to the Book of Kings, from the Euphrates to the River of Egypt, which may be the Nile itself or some lesser stream.
And reading the “A Clean Break:
A New Strategy for Securing the Realm”
link to informationclearinghouse.info
“TEXT:
We believe that the Palestinian Authority must be held to the same minimal standards of accountability as other recipients of U.S. foreign aid. A firm peace cannot tolerate repression and injustice. A regime that cannot fulfill the most rudimentary obligations to its own people cannot be counted upon to fulfill its obligations to its neighbors.
Israel has no obligations under the Oslo agreements if the PLO does not fulfill its obligations. If the PLO cannot comply with these minimal standards, then it can be neither a hope for the future nor a proper interlocutor for present. To prepare for this, Israel may want to cultivate alternatives to Arafat’s base of power. Jordan has ideas on this.
To emphasize the point that Israel regards the actions of the PLO problematic, but not the Arab people, Israel might want to consider making a special effort to reward friends and advance human rights among Arabs. Many Arabs are willing to work with Israel; identifying and helping them are important. Israel may also find that many of her neighbors, such as Jordan, have problems with Arafat and may want to cooperate. Israel may also want to better integrate its own Arabs. ”
The pushers of this plan way back in the 90′s.
And who the hell refers to their territory or land as the “realm” What are we talking about a kingdom?
Richard Perle, American Enterprise Institute, Study Group Leader
James Colbert, Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs
Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Johns Hopkins University/SAIS
Douglas Feith, Feith and Zell Associates
Robert Loewenberg, President, Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies
Jonathan Torop, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
David Wurmser, Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies
Meyrav Wurmser, Johns Hopkins University
Well that didn’t take long…
I agree that it would be a sell-out, but, I think it’d be a great demand to press Bibi on…! Show us the borders…!
“show us your borders” is the key issue. Bibi and team will do everything in their power to avoid this question.
That’s the link I was waiting for. I only had it in Arabic.. Thanks..
I think this “sell out!!” response to Rabbo is misplaced. He’s not saying the PLO will recognize Israel as a “Jewish state”, ie a state where it’s ok to privilege Jews over Palestinians. He says “If this map is based on the 1967 borders and provides for the end of the Israeli occupation over all Palestinian lands… then we recognise Israel by whatever name it applies to itself in accordance with international law.” I think that’s just restating the established PLO position ie we recognize the state of Israel and, as is normal diplomatic protocol, we will call it by whatever name it chooses for itself. When Olmert raised the “Jewish state” demand, the PLO told him the same thing – you can define yourself however you like, but if you choose to call yourself “the Jewish state of Israel” we will call you that in exactly the same sense that we call Iran “the Islamic Republic of Iran”.
When countries call Iran “The Islamic Republic of Iran”, they don’t mean they recognize that it embodies Islamic values, they simply mean they recognize the state of Iran, and part of recognition is allowing a state to be known by whatever name it likes. Like when Germany was divided, we called the Eastern part “the German Democratic Republic”. It didn’t mean we thought East Germany was a democracy, it means that we recognized the country and called it by the name it chose to go by. I think Rabbo here, and Erekat in Olmert’s time, were being very careful to say the PLO is willing to recognize Israel in exactly the same way that every country with full diplomatic relations recognizes Israel – ie they will recognize the state of Israel and use the name it chooses for itself. But they’re not going to go beyond that and recognize it as a Jewish state in the way Olmert and Livni and Netanyahu mean – ie acknowledge it’s a place where its ok for Jewish people to be collectively privileged over non-Jews.
The point is that the PA doesn’t have the right to waive the rights of the refugees abroad, so anything they say on the subject is moot, meaningless.
The Palestinian Authority should say they are prepared to recognize Israel any way Israel wants to be recognized. The Palestinian Authority should only recognize the borders established by the UN 1948 Mandate, though.
Abd Rabbu says nothing about the right of return which is indicative of the PA’s will to overlook this right.. This, among many other things, is angering Palestinians in Israel. Jamal Zahalka, a member of the Knesset representing the Balad party, is calling for his his immediate resignation..I have a link here but it’s in Arabic (Arab48)..
In any case:
النائب د.زحالقة: يجب إقالة عبد ربه فورا
link to arabs48.com
I think they’re confident that the United States of Israel will do no such thing. That’s probably why they went ahead with this challenge. It doesn’t mean they’re dropping the RoR, IMHO, but that they know full well this is not going to happen, and they would rather not be blamed for the failure of the peace talks. Of course, this is not going to help them really, they’ll be blamed in the end, as evidenced by this post on Mondweiss. This is all a blame game.
They might be presented with a map that’s ‘close’ to 1967, with faux ‘land swaps’ that could very well undermine the whole notion of a Palestinian state, from water rights to East Jerusalem, but a far cry from being a genuine ‘concession’, and they will still be blamed as turning down a ‘generous offer’.
Adrian Hamilton in the idependant:
Israel has no future as a purely Jewish state