The Israeli media is filled with reports about Macy Gray confirming her plans to perform in Tel Aviv in March. This should have been an occasion for Israelis to celebrate their continuing ability to behave as a normal society despite occupying millions of people, holding Gaza under siege, maintaining an apparatus of racism against its non-Jewish citizens. But in a poorly calculated stunt designed to wash her hands of human rights concerns, Gray had first asked her “fans” if she should perform despite what she called Israel’s “disgusting” treatment of the Palestinians. Within hours, thousands of people who had no prior interest in Gray or her music flocked to her Facebook page (they only had to “like” her page in order to post) to register their opinions. Gray, who appeared to have every intention of performing anyway, remarked after announcing her plan to go to Tel Aviv, that some of those urging her to boycott were “assholes.”
It wasn't enough for Macy Gray to agree to perform in Israel. She has to take a virtual loyalty oath, too.
Under normal circumstances, Gray’s roundhouse attack on some supporters of BDS and her subsequent pledge to perform in Tel Aviv should have pleased nationalistic Israelis. However, her initial criticism of Israel’s occupation has invited a firestorm of racist, sexist and generally hateful diatribes from Israelis. Indeed, many Israelis are more furious with Gray for performing inside their country than for refusing to come. Several internet forums, including one called “Don’t Betray,” have sprouted up to incite public anger at artists such as Gray who have criticized Israel — even if they agree to perform in the country. Meanwhile, the talkback sections of articles in the Hebrew media about Gray’s Tel Aviv shows have provided a forum for the most extreme screeds about the singer.
I have collected and translated a sampling of talkbacks from an article in the Hebrew edition of Ynet, the online version of the Israeli paper Yedioth Aharonoth, which highlight the attitude of some Israelis towards Gray. The talkbacks are almost entirely negative towards Gray, with many urging her to cancel her show for daring to criticize Israel, while others call her a “nigger” and denigrate black music as “contaminated.” Gray might be vaguely aware of Israel’s systematic abuse of Palestinians, but is she aware of the racism towards black Africans inside Israel, including Ethiopian Jews? Has she considered how she might be treated if she were living in Israel? And who are the “assholes” anyway?
Some of 500+ comments from the talkback section to the Hebrew Ynet article provocatively entitled “Gray is against Israel but not canceling:”
THe ugly niggers are joining the Darfurians entering here. All of you go away. wedontwantyou
Go find whoever is going to shag you you fucking whore. Every piece of garbage opens their cunt on us. muslimit
David from Safed: She should take all her brothers the Sudanese and Eritreans and fuck off here.
Another “afro american.” Nice name that the niggers made for themselves. Max
Black music is inferior music that fits you. No name [Another commenter calls him a racist.] “No name” replies: What is racist about that? To say “black” is racist?
Who wants you? You look like a monkey. Mikhal
It’s really disgusting that Israel is going to see black!!! music. Disgusting. Contaminates your soul. Ayela
Don’t come we don’t need your ugly fat ass here. Dude
Blacks and Muslims always go together. Brainless fraternity of people. Shai
[Responding to other commenters denying that any occupation exists]: Right, what chutzpah of us to survive in the jungle around us, as if she can’t understand the jungle. M
They [Americans] killed thousands of innocent people in Iraq but they come to complain here. moshe
What Israeli fans does she have here? Leftist garbage maniacs [bastards] need to be killed whoever comes to her show. victor
What Palestinian people? What peaceful people? Maybe terrorism? Maybe right of return on your expense? Bruriera Hess
Don’t give us favors. IF she’s contemplating coming Israel should cancel the show. Dontgiveusfavors
I returned the ticket. And you? Anee
Maybe they will let her perform in Gaza. Raymond
Go to Gaza, perform and fuck for the Hamas. May your name be cursed. pessey
When you’re being spit at at least you have to get a kleenex to clean it up. hamitnaseh
Fuck you who wants you here anyway? Sharon
[Quote by David Ben Gurion]: “It doesn’t matter what the goyim will say it matters what the Jews will do.” LT
Sweetheart, don’t come here. We don’t want you. Who do you think you are talking about us? IsraeliJewishFighter
Those who are “disgusting” towards the Balestinians [mocking the Arabic pronounciation of Palestinian] are the Balestinians themselves. Hineh
Please don’t cancel. What are we going to do without your show? My Asshole
This post originally appeared on Max Blumenthal's blog.
Another aspect of Israel’s latest charm offensive?
Another poster observed a few days ago, it’s more offensive than it is charming.
Stay classy Israel, the beautiful jewel of the Middle East and the only democracy.
From the picture, I can see that Macy Gray is a very attractive person. But somehow she seems to have thought that just because people do disgusting things to others, doesn’t mean that they might treat you the same way. I really hope she has better common sense in choosing relationships than she has in selecting performance venues. If you know that somebody has been violent towards others, in my book it is a clear signal to avoid them, not to assume that they’ll be different with you.
This is so typical. The vile comments made about Helen Thomas were so far over the top, insulting the appearance of a woman in her 90s. More recently, when Brigitte Bardot spoke up against kosher slaughter, there were similar remarks about her being ugly.
Ugly is in the souls of people who would make such comments.
Can someone ‘post ‘ this to her facebook page, the one in question?
I don’t ‘like’ her, and won’t ‘like’ her, so I can’t.
Let her see what they think of her….
Done.
Citizen,
Keep us up to date on this.
RE: “Israelis target Macy Gray with racist diatribes…” – Max Blumenthal
FROM ‘YNET News’, 01/19/11:
ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to ynetnews.com
Oh I wouldn’t go to Israel now if I were Macy Gray. She’s not wanted. Might be dangerous. I propose to extend BDS to BIDS, with a new I for Insult. The nice thing about the I is you don’t have to take the blame for ruining a lucrative deal which, in business, is an attractive feature.
A touch weird though.
There might be a measure of schadenfreude in seeing her get this kind of welcome.
Undoubtedly. This is a case of totally out of control communication where she ends up upsetting everyone. First Macy Gray decides to ask her facebook group – a questionable choice – using honest and undiplomatic language – also debatable. Then she probably mistakes the aggressive posters as boycotters, and responds again, speaking her mind in a very undiplomatic manner. Sounds like a nice person really, who is by now astonished by the mess a few honest remarks caused.
“questionable” and “debatable”, Tuyzentfloot? Nothing wrong with “upsetting everyone”, in this. Would you advise to duck the clear & straight talk? Maybe not well premeditated, but I do not condemn her action. At least we can read what ‘vibrant’ in that ‘democracy’ means.
I would advise her not to ask the public for advice but make a decision and then announce it.
Racism is like a seizure disorder. Initially, a person may have such a high threshold for seizures that one never occurs, but, once said threshold is reached, a previously ineffective stimulus may prove to be effective. For the Israeli settlers (every Jewish Israeli except for those who support justice for Palestine), being part of a colonial venture exceeds the threshold for racism, thereby lowering the threshold for a repeat occurrence of this disorder, such that all it takes for many of them to succumb to another form of racism (anti-black) is for a black artist to mention that something’s wrong with that settler-entity Israel.
That is the funny thing about racism, it can switch its object at will. When you put separatism into the equation, than absolutely anyone can be the object – outside of the small group of insiders, whatever the criteria. When you empower a group like this with a state apparatus it becomes deadly, that is why racism is always used as a ploy for war.
Does this sound familiar?
FEELING THE HATRED IN TEL AVIV
This is off topic, but you gotta see it because it’s the big daddy macro of all discussed on this blog–what Tunsia really means for the future: link to uruknet.info
Thank you. A must read article. So much so well said. Should be featured and deserves a wide readership. Thanks for the link!
Thanks for the link Citizen … Since I didn’t know about this site, I browsed through it and this is what I found :
“A cache of thousands of pages of confidential Palestinian records covering more than a decade of negotiations with Israel and the US”
• The scale of confidential concessions offered by Palestinian negotiators, including on the highly sensitive issue of the right of return of Palestinian refugees.
• How Israeli leaders privately asked for some Arab citizens to be transferred to a new Palestinian state.
• The intimate level of covert co-operation between Israeli security forces and the Palestinian Authority.
• The central role of British intelligence in drawing up a secret plan to crush Hamas in the Palestinian territories.
• How Palestinian Authority (PA) leaders were privately tipped off about Israel’s 2008-9 war in Gaza.
Read more
Racism isn’t her only problem. If she decides to get out and rub elbows with some of the nice local people she will have to be aware that, when riding on the sex-segregated buses in Tel Aviv ( like Connex line 322) she will have to observe the rules of separation and sit in the section reserved for impure assholes in the back.
It would also be a good idea for her fans to caution her about the prohibition in those parts against hearing the voices of women singing in public…. On second thought, maybe it would be best to simply call the whole thing off!
Hostage, Sex- separated busses? Prohibition of women singing? Is this TelAviv you’re talking about?!?
This may seem off-topic, but at least it’s a bit more representative of Tel Aviv- the opera at Dizengoff center, downtown Tel Aviv:
link to youtube.com
Line 322, which leaves from city with most liberal reputation in Israel, forces women to sit in back
indefense someone in the article claims “Even in New York you can see single-sex buses.”
really? i never heard of this in nyc. perhaps it’s a private bus line.
The link is over a year old, and I think the legality of those busses have been challenged in the courts. In any case, it’s certainly not typical of Tel Aviv.
On topic: there are plenty of obnoxious, dumb, racists in Israel. Unfortunately, the same breed can be found in other countries, too.
I think the legality of those busses have been challenged in the courts
i’m sure they wrote about it if that was the case. i didn’t have any luck finding any reference to it in the news, maybe you can find some in hebrew.
Unfortunately, the same breed can be found in other countries, too.
yes they can but other countries don’t have apartheid governments where 1/2 the people under their control have no right of representation while the countries supporters peddle the notion it’s a democracy. rather a different kettle of fish jon.
jon, here’s an article about tel aviv i thought might interest you .
jon, what countries? are they apartheid countries too that are colonizing another peoples land? for decades? since inception? carrying out a brutal occupation for 40+ years?
Here’s the latest I could find on that:
link to haaretz.com
Israel itself is not an apartheid state, like there was in South Africa. In the occupied territories there is, indeed, a regime which is akin to apartheid.
Israel itself is not an apartheid state, like there was in South Africa. In the occupied territories there is, indeed, a regime which is akin to apartheid.
according to the legal definition of the crime of apartheid the regime in israel is an apartheid regime perpetrating acts against humanity “committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.”
international law defines racism as discrimination based on race or ethnicity.
i recommend following the links in this report.
the crime of apartheid determines where apartheid exists not claims about the different circumstances. all countries are different but so what? that Israel may not be an apartheid state ‘like’ South Africa is neither here nor there. it’s an apartheid regime.
Check this out:
link to youtube.com
(I’m not responsible for this clip, and may not agree with every word, but I still recommend that you see it..)
yeah, that vid’s been around the block jon. it’s a big favorite of the hasbarists to point out all the differences between the two countries. i don’t want to sound redundant but i noticed you’ve ignored my comment, why might that be?
the crime of apartheid determines where apartheid exists not claims about the different circumstances. all countries are different but so what?
have you read the description of the crime of apartheid?
if i drowned my mother in the bathtub and you poured gasoline on your dad and lit a match and we both committed murder would you argue about the difference between water and fire?
that is what you are doing. care to address 1.2. or 3?
Which part don’t you agree with Jon? this pretty much nailed the commenters on MW.
Israel itself is not an apartheid state, like there was in South Africa. In the occupied territories there is, indeed, a regime which is akin to apartheid.
The Israel operating in the occupied territories is not a separate entity from Israel proper itself. In fact, by repeated and clear Israeli assertions of sovereignty over settlements and annexations of occupied territories in WB and EJ, the case of Israel being a wholly apartheid state is ever more strengthened.
Annie, I haven’t been avoiding your questions.. Don’t forget that we’re in different time zones, and I have a life, too.
On the other hand I notice that you avoided responding when I said that I resent your insinuation that I’m some kind of hired operative, and that the editors of MW are welcome to check me out.
As to apartheid what I said was that the term doesn’t apply in Israel itself. In the occupied territories it’s damn close. Also :over here the discrimination is based on nationality, not race.
jon s
Also :over here the discrimination is based on nationality, not race.
Apartheid is an aggravated form of racial segregation that was first prohibited by Article 3 of International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.
Article1 of the convention explains that discrimination on the basis of nationality is a prohibited form of racial discrimination:
Israel and the other contracting states agree to accept the competence of a panel of independent legal experts that they elect to their own treaty body, the “Committee on the Elimination of all forms of Racial Discrimination” or the “CERD”.
The Committee conducts periodic reviews of the reports submitted by the member states. There have been a number of practices that are not in line with the Article 3 prohibition in both Israel and the Occupied territories. Those are noted in the concluding observations of the country reports. For example, the Nationality and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order) on 31 July 2003 was the subject of an Early Warning and Request for Urgent Action in 2004 and was subsequently cited as inconsistent with the Article 3 prohibition (2007). Here are some additional observations:
*The Committee remains concerned … that no general provision for equality and prohibition of racial discrimination has been included in the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty (1992), which serves as Israel’s bill of rights.
*The Committee notes with deep concern that separate “sectors” are maintained for Jewish and Arab persons, in particular in the areas of housing and education, and that according to some information, such separation results in unequal treatment and funding. The Committee regrets that information provided by the State party on this matter was not sufficiently detailed. (Articles 3, 5 and 7 of the Convention) CERD/C/ISR/CO/13
*The Committee welcomes the decisions of the Supreme Court in Ka’adan v. The Israel Lands Administration (2000) and Kibbutz Sde-Nahum et al v. Israel Land Administration et al (2002), in which it ruled that State land should not be allocated on the basis of any discriminatory criteria or to a specific sector. It notes that the Israel Land Administration, as a result, has adopted new admission criteria for all applicants. It remains concerned, however, that the condition that applicants must be “suitable to a small communal regime” may allow, in practice, for the exclusion of Arab Israeli citizens from some State-controlled land. (Articles 2, 3 and 5 (d) and (e) of the Convention) CERD/C/ISR/CO/13
*The status of Israel’s settlements is clearly inconsistent with Article 3 of the Convention which, as noted in the Committee’s General Recommendation XIX, prohibited all forms of racial segregation in all countries. There was a consensus among publicists that the prohibition of racial discrimination, irrespective of territories, was an imperative norm of international law. See CERD/C/SR.1250, 9 March 1998
*The Committee, while noting that the Supreme Court has recommended that the course of the wall be changed to prevent disproportionate harm to specific Palestinian communities, is concerned that the State party has chosen to disregard the 2004 advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice on the legal consequences of the construction of the wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. The Committee is of the opinion that the wall and its associated regime raise serious concerns under the Convention, since they gravely infringe a number of human rights of Palestinians residing in the territory occupied by Israel. These infringements cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security or public order. (Articles 2, 3 and 5 of the Convention) CERD/C/ISR/CO/13
*The Committee is deeply concerned that the severe restrictions on the freedom of movement in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, targeting a particular national or ethnic group, especially through the wall, checkpoints, restricted roads and permit system, have created hardship and have had a highly detrimental impact on the enjoyment of human rights by Palestinians, in particular their rights to freedom of movement, family life, work, education and health. It is also concerned that the Order on Movement and Travel (Restrictions on Travel in an Israeli Vehicle) (Judea and Samaria), of 19 November 2006, which bans Israelis from transporting Palestinians in their vehicles in the West Bank, except in limited circumstances, has been suspended but not cancelled. (Articles 2, 3 and 5 of the Convention) CERD/C/ISR/CO/13
The Committee notes with concern the application in the Occupied Palestinian Territories of different laws, policies and practices applied to Palestinians on the one hand, and to Israelis on the other hand. It is concerned, in particular, by information about unequal distribution of water resources to the detriment of Palestinians, about the disproportionate targeting of Palestinians in house demolitions and about the application of different criminal laws leading to prolonged detention and harsher punishments for Palestinians than for Israelis for the same offences. (Articles 2, 3 and 5 of the Convention) CERD/C/ISR/CO/13
So, it isn’t just a problem confined to the occupied territories. There is ample justification for viewing Israeli society, as a whole, as a system of apartheid.
I notice that you avoided responding when I said that I resent your insinuation that I’m some kind of hired operative
oh, i didn’t realize that deserved a response. i get it. i resent apartheid. i called you a hasbarist because that’s what people who advocate for israel are called. the fact the mfa and the israel project and israel action network hire people to do what you do, people who do not self identify as hired agents but impersonate regular joes must be a tad of a burden for you. whatever. you sound no different than them. so be it. consider it a compliment, you sound like a pro. if i had endless amounts of cash i’d be hiring people to combat the israel action network myself. unlike israel our movement doesn’t have millions of dollars to hire contractors.
i mentioned to you before you would be a perfect fit for daily kos where they have rules against those kinds of insinuations. as far as i know there are no rules like that here. so i guess your resentment is your problem. i suggest you live w/it like i have to live w/my resentments of israel gross human rights violations.
well, i imagine you don’t lie awake at night resenting my implications so they are on an entirely different scale. how about you apologize to me for israel’s gross human rights violations? i didn’t think so.
over here the discrimination is based on nationality, not race.
right, you have special kinds of nationals that afford different people different kinds of citizenship. i’m not an idiot jon.
one more thing jon, take up your issues wrt hired hasbara agents w/the people who hire them. when they are required to register w/sites as hired operatives and self identify working for the government of israel or some lobbiest (by all means link to to a blog where they out themselves because they don’t) then i have every right to assume you or any other person blogging for israel w/any regularity is a hired agent.
or give me some logical explanation why a site like this w/over a million hits a month would NOT have hired agents amongst us. or you tell me who they are jon because until someone comes out and admits it here you are all fair game. this is about ethnic cleansing so the stakes are high, very high.
your resentment is the last of my worries.
see ya.
annie,
prove to us that you are not a hired agent. Your argument is quite interesting, so does anyone with a political blog have to register as an agent of a foreign government? Do Phil and Adam?
There was one article about MFA hiring Israelis to blog, now you think every pro-Israel organization does the same? It is a weak misdirection tactic.
Annie, Now I’m fantacising about some agency that will actually pay me for commenting on MW! My bank account could sure use the lift. I wonder if they pay by word? by posting? what about benefits?
Seriously, I wouldn’t be a very good candidate for the job. I oppose the Israeli gov’t policies, and I dislike dogmatic thinking, I tend to “call ‘em as I see ‘em”.
prove to us that you are not a hired agent.
i could care less if you think i’m a hired agent. it ain’t me bitching about some implication. you guys implicate yourselves as far as i am concerned.
Now I’m fantacising about some agency that will actually pay me for commenting on MW
google ‘israel project/hiring’ jon, i’m sure they’ll sign you right up, you don’t need to say you approve the Israeli gov’t policies, you just need to blog like you do. you’ll do just fine i guarantee you.
This may seem off-topic, but at least it’s a bit more representative of Tel Aviv- the opera at Dizengoff center, downtown Tel Aviv:
And yet no matter where you are in Israel, you are never more than a few minutes away from someone hell-bent on bullying everyone else back to the 15th century. The fact is that some of the folks riding on those bus lines get violent and abusive. They only worry about the legal consequences after the fact, i.e. link to haaretz.com
I think the legality of those busses have been challenged in the courts.
You may have confused the Ultra-Orthodox terrorists with the PLO. While the latter have recognized the State of Israel, the former do not accept the competence of the Supreme Court. They don’t care what the modern-day secular laws and precedents have to say on the subject of their centuries-old practices, so long as the state doesn’t disturb the de facto status quo. When that happens, the angry mobs inevitably pour into the streets by the thousands. The Shulchan Aruch supporters on the Constitution, Law and Justice Committee of the Knesset usually find a way to put the Supreme Court back on its leash, e.g. link to articles.cnn.com
It is pathetic that plaintiffs can still find a court of law that is open to compromises on the matter of publicly subsidized sex-segregation, longer (life-threatening) sabbath-day ambulance routes that detour around blocked roads in ulra-orthodox neighborhoods, or gender-based restrictions on the right to worship or sing at the Western Wall, & etc.
Macy Gray didn’t want to offend anybody, so she ended up pissing off everybody. I bet she will stay completely out of politics from now on. This may help create a de facto boycott of Israel-entertainers will quietly avoid bookings there, not out of principle, but to avoid controversy. I don’t know the boycott going this way will do a lot of good for Palestinians.
There is kind of a nauseating aspect to the boycott movement, at least to me, and that is begging rich and famous people to show some some pity on the suffering of their common man-kissing their asses and trying to make it seem cool-then going psycho on them like a demented fan who didn’t get an autograph. It’s the groveling and obsession with fame that annoys me.
Macy Gray didn’t want to offend anybody, so she ended up pissing off everybody.
I doubt that someone who wants to remain inoffensive would use language like “disgusting” or “asshole.” If anything Gray was being more honest, receptive and public about the issue than any other celebrity who has been caught in the cross-fire of BDS and pro-Israel activists.
When it comes down to being mean, there is no doubt that Gray succeeded in being offensive towards BDS activists, as she called them assholes. However offensive her comment toward Israel is perceived, she was only describing Israeli policy, and it was a reasonable statement since it was not a personal attack and more than appropriate given Israeli atrocities currently underway.
I don’t know the boycott going this way will do a lot of good for Palestinians.
On the contrary, Israel has yet again lent a great boost to BDS. Can you imagine how Gray will be received if she decides to perform there now? It would actually have far worse repercussions for Israel’s already declining image if she actually goes through with it and doesn’t cancel it. Either way BDS wins.
First of all Jon, it’s call activism for a reason. These activists have to reach out to public personalities like Gray. Not all – but obviously the ones who may change their mind. It’s about the cause. You only characterize it as ass-kissing because you’re a beneficiary of colonialism. Daily theft, humiliation, abuse of an entire people.
It’s even more repulsive that you look down upon simple activists who are fighting against colonialism, for a people who are fighting the biggest power in the region backed up by the biggest power in the world. Oh and the Israel lobby – the Western intelligentsia, Islamophobia, etc.
It’s like when people like you point the finger at Hamas for terror attacks when your side has killed 10 times more children and 5 times more civilians in general. And overall, when you attempt to frame this entire conflict as civilized vs. uncivilized.
This is a colonial conflict and the violence that exists therein is a function of that parameter. It does not stray much. But yea, carry on about what else annoys you.
EDIT:
I should also add that, Jon s. is typical. He wrote this long article on what it’s like in S’Derot. If you read all these talkbacks in the Israeli online press or even the Western Press, especially Yahoo News – you’ll see the same kind of arguments. “Blah blah, let her go live in S’Derot.”
But it’s not just that, its also “blah blah, let her/him go live in Gaza.”
The game is rigged as it were.
I see so much hate for the Palestinians (and Arabs), as well as this pedestal Zionist (not Jewish, because some Jews like Finkelstein dont get that kind of appraisal) suffering is put upon.
Cliff, are you sure you’re referencing my comments ?or somone else’s?
My article never mentioned Sderot (although I do have a deep sympathy for the good people of that town, my daughter lived there for a year, under the rockets ).
The Hamas are indeed terrorists. I’m not aware of any rule according to which the more casualties you suffer, the more just your cause. In WW2 the Germans and Japanese sustained more casualties than the US. Does that mean their cause was just?
I’m not aware of any rule according to which the more casualties you suffer, the more just your cause.
is that your response to cliff’s comment?
It’s like when people like you point the finger at Hamas for terror attacks when your side has killed 10 times more children and 5 times more civilians in general.
Yeah, I responded to Cliff even though I’m not sure he was reacting to my comments.
he wasn’t referencing just causes when he said that (you probably know this/just strawmanning it eh?), he was referencing terrorism. you say ‘indeed’ hamas are terrorists yet you’ve ignored israel’s war crimes. do you reject the notion israel rained terror down on gaza?
do you reject the goldstone report? or as cliff suggests are you framing this conflict as civilized vs. uncivilized.
The WordPress software on this site makes replies essentially impossible.
potsherd, i find it helpful on long threads to either copy paste a segment of dialogue i’m responding to or simply address the person by name.
Jon s., your country is actively colonizing another peoples’ land.
You were not the majority in this land and to become so, you had to ethnically cleanse the indigenous population. Why the heck would draw a parallel to WW2?
My point is that this is a colonial conflict. It is between colonizers, and the colonized. You are still on their land, actively dispossessing them, subjugating them, etc.
Don’t be so self-absorbed.
annie, that doesn’t help a bit if the person being addressed does not even see the reply. How many times are people supposed to scroll through an entire 300-post thread just in case someone might have answered them?
MW needs complete comment threading along with a “parent” feature and “comments by” and “replies to” feature.
jon s: “The Hamas are indeed terrorists”.
So are the murderers of Turkish unarmed activists (murderers now cleared by another one of Israel’snotorious whitewash panels) and the exterminators of men, women, children and animals of Gaza. Every one of those storm troopers who rolled into gaza shelling and bombing all that stood is a terrorist and a war criminal. Frankly, I felt after Gaza that israel should be put on the ‘axis of evil” list as a the worst sponsor of international terror and incubator of war crimes. A country full of zealots and nationalist madmen and madwomen armed with nuclear weapons pointed, among other targets, at European capitals.
If you supported the Gaza atrocities in any way shape or form then you know what you are. If you didn’t, but feel the urge to apologize for those who did, comparing shderot to Gaza is like comparing Munich to the Warsaw Ghetto during WWII. Sure, there were many bombings suffered by Munich from the Allies, but there’s no comparison between the suffering of the German civilians in Munich (at least before Germany was defeated) and what was done to the Jews in the Ghetto. Sometime when you get a chance, please inquire what it is that some of your fellow israeli citizens would really like to do to the Gazans, if only the world wasn’t watching. I did ask and I did listen to the answers. And there were many and very few were civilized. And that is what colors my rather jaundiced view of israelis as a whole (the few, all too few, good ones excepted). Do your own questionnaire of the “man in the street”, if you dare, though I bet you won’t, because you know the truth about your fellow citizens.
In any case, it is not for you to declare anyone to be a terrorist, if you can bring yourself to condone ANY of the horrific acts done in your name. What you wish for personally doesn’t really matter. What you have done lately for the population of Gaza does. When you have something to share of your good deeds for the victims of oppression and persecution and those victimized by the pogroms carried on daily by settlers – and their enablers – then, and only then will you have earned the right to name terror when you see it.
C’mon Jon, you know Sderot is the only town programmed into their vocabulary. You say rocket, they think Sderot, it reminds me of the great youtube video you posted.
Beersheba, Grad missile….. does not compute…. does not compute…
It computes alright yonira, I just can’t see any reason to prioritise Israeli deaths that never happened over Palestinian deaths that happen continuously, and all in the name of Israeli perpetually maintaining the occupation of Gaza and East Jerusalem/West Bank.
jon s’s “great youtube video” might convince children – and you yonira, but grown-ups understand the issues and can easily demolish every single point.
I condemn terrorism -the deliberate targetting of innocent civilians – from any side. In any case, in Gaza or elsewhere, if civilians were deliberately targetted by the IDF, those responsible should be investigated, prosecuted and punished.
Of course , regarding the Hamas, nobody expects them not to target civilians. They are terrorists, naturally that’s what they do. It would be like expecting a shark to become a vegetarian.
Cliff, My parallel to WW2 had to do with numbers of casualties as an indication of justice.
In my opinion this is not a colonial conflict, Zionism was quite different from colonialism. This country is our homeland, and also the Palestinian’s homeland. That’s the essence of the conflict, and that’s why the only reasonable solution is partition, a.ka. the 2 state solution.
jon s ~ the mechanisms of control exerted by European jews over the indigenous Palestinian population (christian, jewish, muslim) were and are identical to that employed by other colonial states. That jews controlled some portions of that part of the world several millenia before is irrelevant.
Every person on the planet is African (even you), and if we all decided to return to our “homeland”, those with the most power would take over using colonial methods to control the indigenous population.
Let her go and experience this. It will spread like wildfire through the music and black communities upon her return.
I refer you to : Amir’e Stoudamire of the NY Knicks. I doubt he’ll makethe connection.
Max, you just threw a hand-grenade into the I/P issue here. ;-)
Contrast the above with this, from AMERICAN TRIAL ATTORNEYS IN DEFENSE OF ISRAEL:
link to attorneysdefendingisrael.blogspot.com
Macy, a word of caution seems to be in order. The “American Trial Attorneys In Defense of Israel” appear to have a current “Client-Lawyer Relationship” with Israel. They may not have leave to appear Pro Hac Vice in any dispute that arises between you and Israel.
“American Trial Attorneys” said “Israel is a democracy that provides equal rights under the law for all its citizens irrespective of race, religion or gender.” … and ….”Macy, don’t believe everything you are told.”*
*Caution: This statement has not been evaluated by the Israeli Bar Association and certain terms and conditions may apply. “There is no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people. . . . The Jewish people is composed not only of those residing in Israel but also of Diaspora Jewries.” See HCJ 630/70 Tamarin v. State of Israel [1970] IsrSC 26(1) 197. The Women’s Equal Rights Law (1951) specifically excluded marriage and divorce laws from its guarantees of equality for women. Women are also advised not to wear Tallit, hold the Torah, or sing at the Western Wall Concourse. “Equality” is not entrenched as a fundamental human right. Discrimination is permitted without limitation against persons on the basis of “Nationality” (in lieu of race, citizenship, or religion). See Articles 8 & 10 of the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty (1992) as amended (1994) for complete details. The discriminatory statutes include, but are not limited to the following: Law of Return (1950); Nationality Law (1952); Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (2003) Temporary Order 5763 (2003) extended to present; Absentee Property Law (1950); Status Law of Israel (1952); Basic Law: Israel Lands (1960); Land Acquisition Law (1953) as amended (2010); Planning and Construction Law (1965); Law on Agricultural Settlement (1967); Israel Lands Authority Law (2009).
In the Occupied Territories military orders have been used to establish an administrative regime. In the 2004 Wall case the International Court of Justice determined that the regime was illegal. Some of the relevant orders are:
*Orders Nº 29 (1967) and Nº 378 (1970) establish procedures to detain and prosecute Palestinians;
*Military Orders Nº 561 (1974), Nº 783 (1979), Nº 892 (1980), and Nº 981 (1982) establish an entirely separate legal system for Israeli settlers;
*Military Orders Nº 107 (1967), Nº 50 (1967), Nº 101 (1967), and Amendment Orders Nº 1079 and 1423 impose a system of military censorship, and set severe limits on freedom of speech and public assemblies by Palestinians;
*Military Orders Nº 58 (1967), Order Nº 59 (1967), Nº 291 (1968), Nº 1060 (1983) grant Israeli Military Authorities custody, control, and dispute resolution authority concerning state and private property, land, and water; and the right to confiscate private property without compensation.
*Special Military Order Nº 224 (1967) restores the mandate era “Emergency Regulations” (1945); Military Order Nº 92 (1967) concerns provision and control of water; Military Order Nº 5 concerns closure of the West Bank; Military Order Nº 537 (1974) concerning powers of the Area Commander to set municipal boundaries; direct municipal services and planning; and the power to dismiss democratically-elected officials; Military Order Nº 297 establishes a pass system that restricts freedom of movement.
Consult your own legal advisor for additional advice and assistance.
He’s an American surounded by neighbors who seek to drive him from his country?
Guy has a dual loyalty problem.
Probably not the situation she expected or liked to be in, but from here Macy Gray wins either way: going means she has exposed and trumped the racists, staying shows a well based boycott. She’s free to choose now! How can Israel spin itself out of this?
This should have been an occasion for Israelis to celebrate their continuing ability to behave as a normal society despite occupying millions of people
The fact is that the Israelis know that their society is abnormal and thus need complete and utter validation of Zionism and Israel in order to normalize their own perception of it. So it doesn’t matter that even though Gray was appropriately educated enough to call Israeli policy “disgusting,” she still gave them the benefit of the doubt by supporting the anti-boycott initiative and planning to perform there. Blumenthal is right on target when he says that Gray is required a virtual loyalty oath to gain Israeli approval – nothing short of outright subservience will do. Really, according to posts here apparently the Israelis hold a grudge against Obama for not visiting Israel on his trip to the Middle East, despite all the services the US has historically and continues to provide it contrary to law, consensus and US political stature worldwide.
I’m sorry to admit that the name ‘Macy Gray’ did not mean anything to me until now. But it doesn’t seem fair, on the evidence presented, to suggest that her knowledge of I/P matters amounts only to vague awareness or that she’s trying to avoid offence. ‘Disgusting’ is much sharper language than normally emerges from the world of celebrities or of politicians. And if she chose to involve her fans in the question of whether disgusting policies should be met with boycotts I wouldn’t object – it could be taken as a way of enlightening the public without preaching to them.
She definitely stepped on a landmine with her flippant Facebook post. I think she’s in a no win position, she might even get heckled at her two performances.
She should issue an apology to the pro-BDS contingent. The tone of those asking her to cancel the performance was largely measured and reasoned.
Oscar,
You don’t have a clue what was said to her privately.
“Oscar,
You don’t have a clue what was said to her privately.”
Okay, Richard, you tell us what was said to her privately.
Anyway, suppose some nasty things were said in private by the pro-BDS side. Probably couldn’t be nastier than the racist things said by the Israelis in Max’s post and in many other places by pro-Israeli Americans, so why doesn’t she say “Some of the pro-Israel people are assholes”?
I could respect her decision to go to Israel if she thinks she might do some good that way, but if she has good reasons for her decision she hasn’t said what they are.
Shocks, Joseph Gobbels, the nazi propaganda chief is not dead, he changed his name to Gobbelski, moved to Israel and have training seminars on how to love your next neighbour.
Friends, e-mail those israeli remarks to our president and members of the congress with the question: do they agree with those remarks on a US. citizen? Are we spending our billions on the right programmes when millions of americans go to bed hungry?
Email the names they call Obama, which are even worse.
I want to say no good deed goes unpunished, bit it’s too obvious.
So, riddle me this, anti-Zionists: what’s the shortest unit of time known to man?
The average duration of Israeli gratitude.
Also, before I forget – can someone bring this – the racist sentiments of some Israelis – to the attention of Amir’e Stoudmire of the NY Knicks, who seems to [a] think he’s Jewish, [b] thinks his mom is Jewish or part Jewish, [c] fallen in love with Israel over the past summer, [d] feels some strong Israelophile attachment to Judaism and the Jewish state, and [e] made himself a dupe, unwittingly or otherwise, of an Israeli propaganda-fest, allowing his vacation in Israel to be hijacked for the nefarious purposes of Zionist P.R. As if Israel needs any help in getting it’s sides of the story told in the US media.
Amir’e – as a political analyst he’s a pretty good power forward. When “bullshit” was quickly called over Amir’e’ various claims, he backtracked pretty quickly and changed his stories with a speed which can only be described as Nixonian. What a chump. Get a good look at what some Israelis really think of you, if their comments about M.G. are any guide.
My apoligies to amir’e if he’s sincere in what he’s professed – but I really, totally doubt it.
Thanks Max for the translation.
can some one explain to me how Israel being the only jewish state some makes it legit. if its the only jewish state and it is illegit than there is nothing wrong with it going bye bye. and as a state for religion( and that’s what it is remove the religion and their is nothing connecting jews together) it is illegitmate.