A resident of Jab'a stands next to destroyed olive trees. (Photo: Palestine Solidarity Project)
Yesterday, February 22 2011, a number of Palestinian news agencies, including the agency that I work for, published articles on the destruction of olive fields in the West Bank town of Jab’a, found in the greater Bethlehem district.
The details were far from sparse, but cut to heart of the matter. The Israeli military had entered the olive grove of a Palestinian farmer and destroyed between 230 and 250 of his olive trees (reports vary). The military claimed that they were clearing state land, although the land is actually owned by the farmer and he has all legal documents to prove this.
Today I went to meet this man with a Palestinian friend of mine, and a couple of mutual friends, both internationals.
The gentleman in question goes by the name of Abu Taha. He is part of the small community of Jab’a, approximately between 800 and 900 people, and he relies on his olive groves in the area for his livelihood. Although a small town, the population of Jab’a are the legal owners of a large quantity of land in the South Bethlehem district. Fertile land land that is increasingly becoming prime real estate for the growing settler population in the region.
Abu Taha is also a beneficiary of the work of the Joint Advocacy Initiative, a project of the YMCA in Beit Sahour - a town located on the outer edge of the city of Bethlehem. It was in this context that my Palestinian friend visited today, as a representative of the venture, that gives away young olive trees to Palestinian farmers, and helps both plant said trees and harvest them through their campaign to bring internationals to the area to work alongside and learn from Palestinians such as Abu Taha.
The support of the JAI is crucial for farmers like Abu Taha is isolated in his work. Of his nine children, most are abroad, and those who aren’t have no interest in following their father’s footsteps to the olive groves.
Abu Taha’s struggle with the so-called Civilian Administration, i.e. the Israeli military that occupies and controls the West Bank, began when the Israeli water company applied to the Israeli military to build a water pipe on his land.
Without consulting Abu Taha, permission was granted, resulting in the destruction of 60 of his trees, and the paving of part of his field . This water pipe supplies Israeli settlements with water that is, of course, not allowed to be used by the Palestinian population in the area.
The military came back, yesterday, to clear his land, claiming that it was the property of the State of Israel; an action that was averted when a friend of Abu Taha’s saw the attack and alerted him.
Abu Taha arrived at his fields to prove ownership of the agricultural land, at which point the Israeli military was forced to halt their actions, but not before a sizable portion of his trees had been destroyed, the bulk of which were confiscated, and chemicals poured over the stumps to prevent them from regrowing.
Some were fully grown, whilst others were barely saplings.
When the destruction of Abu Taha’s property was partially averted, the Israeli military turned their attention to the neighboring field, who’s owner was unable to attend to prove ownership, resulting in the destruction of approximately 150 more trees. This took yesterday’s total to around 400.
The reason for this act of violence against Palestinian property can only be assumed to be for the aid of settlement expansion. Close to the violated fields, caravan outposts loom ominously on the hillside.
Within reach of the settlement of Beit Ein, these caravans are used when the residents of settlements wish to expand their land grab. They are placed away from the settlement, but within a few kilometres, so that the land between them is effectively annexed. Once the settlement has been expanded the surrounding areas, usually right up to the built up area of local Palestinian towns, are confiscated to the settlement under the auspices of providing a safe buffer zone from the Palestinian communities nearby, robbing Palestinians of their property, their livelihood and their home land.
In the media we are quick to ignore the human side of this de-humanizing occupation. When reporting on destruction of property, on abduction, on injury and even on murder, we tell ourselves we must remain detached to keep a grip on our objectivity.
How can you remain objective when faced with words such as these:
“When I saw them cutting down the trees I felt as if somebody is uprooting my heart from between my lungs.”
When you come to Palestine, please come meet Abu Taha.
Circarre Parrhesia is an editor and writer for the International Middle East Media Center, www.imemc.org, based in the West Bank town of Beit Sahour.
Jeez, these Israelis really are a cancer.
“The military came back, yesterday, to clear his land, claiming that it was the property of the State of Israel”
So the West Bank is part of Israel.
“the Israeli military turned their attention to the neighboring field, who’s [sic]owner was unable to attend to prove ownership”
And if you can’t produce the ownership papers on the spot, your land is state land.
“the Israeli water company applied to the Israeli military to build a water pipe on his land .. permission was granted … This water pipe supplies Israeli settlements with water”
Tell me again about how the settlements are private enterprises and nothing to do with the Israeli government.
But, but, but Israel maintains that it’s not the colonies that are the problem.
Obama’s veto of the UN resolution on settlements was a green light for Israel to build more settlements and destroy more Palestinian life and land.
This is obviously Israeli policy in action. Slow motion ethnic cleansing. I note that none of his grown children are interested in protecting the land. They have left, it seems, the WB entirely. Can you blame them? If I had a choice of a real life somewhere else or perpetual war with fanatical settlers and soldiers of the IDF what would it be?
yeah, screw the olive trees and Abu Taha’s private property. we’re just pissed because the perpetrators are ‘jewish’. otherwise we’d be supporting uprooting this farmers trees and building settlements on his land.
where’s fuster w/his ‘right’s on private property speech’ now that we need it (although i did just hear him eat a few words so kudos for that).
only a holocaust-loving anti-semite would dare have the unmitigated gall to complain about having such people as neighbours, eh?
we can thank obama’s veto for this. it’s empowered them to expand more.
seething.
Clearly. annie, what can we do to prevent this (USA) policy being reelected in 2012?
eguard, the policy is not elected, it’s hardly discussed. exposure is the best remedy imho, we need a national discussion about our ‘special friendship’.
The lands around there have been several times confiscated, it seems.
link to stopthewall.org
link to poica.org
Israel destroys the livelihood whenever and wherever they can. If past is prologue, they’ve destroyed trees to lay water lines to the settlement that steal from an aquifer tap in the occupied West Bank, but the raw sewage will merely be piped away from the settlement and dumped onto the Palestinian country side.
As ever, Israel is doing an excellent job at making the most reasonable people loathe everything about it. How they can blatantly do this, and thousands of similar actions, and then whine about being singled out and other ridiculous fabrications is beyond reason. The fiction that the West Bank is both part of Israel and not part of Israel (depending on what suits them) is particularly grotesque. Fascism in action, of the blood and soil variety.
Destroyed trees are an opportunity for a “new narrative”. Confiscation of land is an evil that is “required” (most likely for “a good in the world”). A water pipeline exclusively for settlers is “self-(self-)determination”.
But, hey, at least the IDF didn’t piss on anyone’s head…this time.
Why can’t these Palestinian terrrrrrists just “humanize ‘the Other’” and negotiate with the poor, scared, Holocaust-remembering Israelis?!
This is part of the settler/rightwing Zionist “one state” solution. Seize the land, drive out the Palestinians. Then the one state solution looks pretty attractive.
Grad rocket hit Be’er Sheva last night, damage to property, but fortunately no casualties.
I heard the sirens, heard the boom.
Glad you and your family are safe Jon S. We hear about terror all the time, but to really experience it must be heart wrenching.
God bless the people of Beersheba.
I wonder what it feels like to have 400 children slaughtered by the world’s most moral army…..must be heart-wrenching.
There. I fixed it for you.
DBG,
Thank you.
Said the Oleh who’s lineage in the holy land goes back to last week.
Does the fact that a rocket hit nearby supposed to justify Israel’s continued land theft?
I have family in Tel-Aviv. In 1991 their home was rocked by a scud missile that hit less than a block away. Despite that, I’m not running around like a good Zionist flashing the victim card every chance I get in the hope that will somehow erase Israel’s crimes against humanity.
But, go on, whine away like you always do. And if you don’t like the inconvenient rocket once in a while when Israel kills four or 10 Palestinians, then perhaps you should move back to where you were born, back to the US.
Jon S, I am sincerely glad that neither you nor anyone else was injured in this incident, and I sympathize with your fright and anxiety. I’m sure that there were people even closer to the scene who were more terrified than you. Never having had this kind of experience, I have some questions for you.
Do you allow yourself to recognize that Palestinians have undergone much more terrifying experiences at the hands of your government, that the risk of this single rocket is an ever-present reality for them and that occasionally, Israel’s onslaught is infinitely worse? Does this incident make you more or less sympathetic to those Palestinians for having endured your experience a million-fold, with actual death and destruction on a widespread scale? Do you blame your own government’s intransigence for this rocket fire, and do you accept that the Palestinians have just cause to fire this rocket? Assuming your answer is no, do you expect Palestinians to blame Hamas for Israel’s attacks and to accept that Israel has just cause to attack them with far greater force than what you experienced?
Hi David,
I am sure Jon is aware of this, but does it make his experience any less real? I don’t understand why Palestinian victimhood needs to be exclusive in this conflict.
Avi, where are you from originally?
NO ONE EXPECTS THE ISRAELI INQUISITION! Among their chief weapons are…
victim? of the psychological variety or did someone end up dead or maimed ? just curious.
let’s review something dbg:
does it make his experience any less real? I don’t understand why Palestinian victimhood needs to be exclusive in this conflict.
is this your idea of victimhood:
why are you answering for jon? he’s not sounding too victimy to me dbg and i think he’s a big boy. furthermore if you’re wondering why palestinians need to be victims you’re barking up the wrong tree, go ask israel. why does israel demand their victimhood, that is what i would like to know.
don’t sling around these errant equivalents.
David, Thanks for the human sympathy. Without pretending to be some sort of hero, I wasn’t really “terrified”. We’ve been through worse…
As to your questions: I have a lot of respect and sympathy for the Palestinian people, it’s one of the reasons that caused me to be active in the peace movement. I’ve seen, up close, the conditions they live under, and they certainly deserve better. They also deserve better leadership (as do we…). The “death and destruction” they have suffered is , to a large degree, the fault of the Hamas terrorists.
My own government also bears a lot of responsibility, not specifically for this rocket, but for the lack of any real progress towards peace, for preferring to build more settlements .
Firing rockets at the civilian population is an act of terrorism and never justified. (Especially when the civilian population includes me!)
Your last question is a tough one, I’m honestly not sure. The IDF, in its retaliation, should take as much as possible care to avoid civilian casualties, and to target only the terrorists. It’s conceivable that the Palestinians in Gaza will rise against the Hamas dictatorship, like what’s happening elsewhere in the region, but that’s not likely to happen in response to Israeli retaliation.
As for the use of “far greater force” – it’s like “if you slap me in the face, I’ll kick you in the balls, hard”. Now, if you know that’s going to happen, maybe you won’t slap me in the first place. It’s called deterrence.
Jon, first of all, my sympathy, while genuine, was obviously tinged with harsh criticism for what I perceive to be your ostrich-like attitude toward Palestinians’ much worse suffering. As to the rest of your post, I find little to agree with. You say the Palestinians deserve “better”; I say they deserve equality, nothing less. In fact, that’s a good deal for the Israeli Jews, most of whom can trace their roots in the land only a small fraction of the time Palestinians have lived there. You claim that Hamas is responsible for the death and destruction that has been meted out by Israel, but in my opinion, Israel’s attacks against Palestinians have been fairly consistently brutal since its founding (and even before). This violence has not been a reaction to Palestinian violence, but a necessary part of the plan to dispossess and control an indigenous population. I agree that firing rockets at a civilian population can never be justified, but it is callous and insensitive to complain about this and other rocket attacks that, as fritghtening as they are, are minuscule in comparison to the violence in the other direction. You continue to wallow in the fantasy that Israel generally operates in self-defense against Hamas aggression, which I think is the exact reverse of reality. Furthermore, you treat Palestinian civilian casualties as an unfortunate byproduct of legitimate Israeli violence, but Israeli civilian casualties as a genuine catastrophe.
Finally, while I certainly wish you personally no harm, and would be saddened to somehow hear of your injury or worse, I do not value your life any higher than anyone in Gaza. Every time I hear of Israeli strikes that killed a number of people, I grieve for their loss, and that includes Hamas fighters as well. I do not consider such men to be deserving of a death sentence because they have been driven to actions I disagree with by the barbarity of Israeli occupation.
My own government also bears a lot of responsibility, not specifically for this rocket, but for the lack of any real progress towards peace, for preferring to build more settlements .
jon, you don’t mention any connection between this rocket and the civilians the iof killed in gaza over the last few weeks. odd
perhaps if you’re so concerned about jewish victims you might lobby the goi to quit killing gazans.
“As for the use of “far greater force” – it’s like “if you slap me in the face, I’ll kick you in the balls, hard”. Now, if you know that’s going to happen, maybe you won’t slap me in the first place. It’s called deterrence.”
Absolutely JonS! Absolutely! When a country finds an alien nation in its midst, devoted only to its own interests, they have every right to defend themselves against it.
Why do Zionists always want to play the games that Jews will lose?
The rockets are a communication.
The dilemma for any rational human being is to discern what they are communicating.
“We won’t be treated like this.”
or
“We regard you – Israelis – as less than human and are acceptable targets”
or
“This is part of a longer struggle to remove Israel from the map. We won’t stop until Jerusalem is ours, and NOT yours, not even shared. GO!!”
Israeli and American radicals that have adopted anti-Zionism need for the sentiment from Hamas to be resistance, and not murderous.
But, I don’t believe that it is in fact clear what is being communicated by shooting rockets at civilian cities.
It is known that the IDF cannot allow it to continue. That is not rhetoric, but their legal responsibility to protect Israeli civilians from assault, even if they “started it”.
>> It is known that the IDF cannot allow it to continue … even if they “started it”.
Palestinian rockets fired in retaliation “communicate” murder, but IDF terrorism, large-scale assaults and massive devastation are just boy-scout “responsibility to protect”. The occupier, aggressor, thief and destroyer is the victim; the oppressed are the criminals.
Beautiful post. Your bias and hypocrisy could not be any more clear. You are truly a hateful piece of Zio-supremacist work. Bravo.
I’m so sick of you playing Goebbels to Livni’s Mengele, Witty.
And what does blowing up a hospital say about the Jewish state? Does it say, “Our existence requires you to die, Arab scum?” Does it say, “International law does not apply to us, because we are God’s Chosen Ones!”
What does your support of THREE HUNDRED murdered children say about you, Witty?
Richard Witty February 24, 2011 at 4:47 pm
“The rockets are a communication.”
Get the hell outta Palestine… simple
“shooting rockets at civilian cities
Oh FFS take the Ziocane needle out of your vein…
Hundreds of thousands of INNOCENT Palestinian CIVILIANS have been dispossessed and INNOCENT Palestinian CIVILIANS are STILL being dispossessed.
Hundreds of thousands of INNOCENT Palestinian CIVILIANS have been slaughtered in order to slaughter those who have fought on their behalves against Israel stealing their land, their water, their livelihoods for 62 years
Hundreds of thousands of INNOCENT Palestinian CIVILIANS have had their homes razed, farms destroyed, orchards bulldozed.
The whole towns and villages of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of INNOCENT Palestinian CIVILIANS have been wiped off the map.
The places where HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of INNOCENT Palestinian CIVILIANS buried their INNOCENT CIVILIAN dead have been desecrated.
MILLIONS of INNOCENT Palestinian CIVILIANS are forced to live as refugees.
Statistics for your use.
from years 2000-2011
Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces
6330 persons
from years 2000-2011
Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians
243 persons
ratio 1:26
Chu, you’re not reading the statistics correctly. You need to add the 496 killed in Israel itself to the Israeli casualties and also to add to the Palestinian casualties those killed in Israel and killed by civilians. And if you’re not making a distinction between Palestinian civilians and fighters, you also have to add Israeli soldiers.
In any case, the numbers are horrific.
You guys can’t seem to be bothered to make that distinctions. See also: The Goldstone Report.
I agree, the numbers are horrific.
Ooooops. Something just fell out of jon’s Hasbarrow
‘in Israel itself’ ??? Seems to indicate that there IS a border to Israel.
How soon will it be before your average Palestinian is shot in the face for breathing Israel’s and the settlers’ air?
What?
Oh…nevermind.
jon s
Grad rocket hit Be’er Sheva last night, damage to property, but fortunately no casualties”
Best Israel evacuate it’s citizens to Israel rather than have then in Palestinian Be’er Sheva.
Be’er Sheva is in Israel.
The whole place is Palestine.
It was not within the extent of Israel’s declared Sovereignty. Territory must be legally annexed. (Even if acquired in a preemptive ‘defensive’ war, started by the preemptors. Not that the notion of a ‘preemptive defensive’ war has ever been accepted by the UNSC as being valid)
If you’d be so kind as to supply the A) Date of the referendum of the citizens in the area, wherein they agreed to be annexed to Israel? B) Date of annexation?
Thx… Meanwhile a map of the Be’er Sheba district as declared by Israel and confirmed by the Israeli Government with the UNSC May 22nd 1948 and June 15th 1949
(Sorry to present evidence by the Israeli Government of the fact that Israel does have defined borders between itself and Palestine…. I know it must be hard to stomach after years of being fed sh*te)
Exactly Chaos, exactly! We get all that BS from Jon, all crap, but when it comes right down to it: “Be’er Sheva is in Israel.”
So inspite of all his phony crap, when you get right down to it, he thinks Israel is only defending what is theirs.
Oh? Within the original UN partition? Or even the 1948 lines?
Be’er Sheva is in Israel, not in the occupied territories. Check a map.
I gave a DETAILED map along with the text of UNGA Res 181.
The area of Be’er Sheba was not within the territory slated for the Jewish State. It was not declared as Israeli. It was confirmed by the Israeli Government as being OUTSIDE OF Israel in statements to the UNSC.
It has never been legally annexed to Israel. It is inadmissibleto ‘acquire’ territory by war. ANY WAR.
// Stephen M. Schwebel – International Court of Justice. “The state of the law has been correctly summarized by Elihu Lauterpacht, who points out that:
territorial change cannot properly take place as a result of the unlawful use of force. But to omit the word “unlawful” is to change the substantive content of the rule and to turn an important safeguard of legal principle into an aggressor’s charter. For if force can never be used to effect lawful territory change, then, if territory has once changed hands as a result of the unlawful use of force, the illegitimacy of the position thus established is sterilized by the prohibition upon the use of force to restore the lawful sovereign. This cannot be regarded as reasonable or correct”
restore the lawful sovereign
A) It is inadmissible to ‘acquire’ territory by war, aggressive/illegal OR defensive/legal. The reason the phrase does not include an ‘aggressive/illegal’ or ‘defensive/legal’ qualification is because it means ANY war. The inhabitants might not have voted for or even been able to vote for the regime in power at the start of the conflict. The UN Charter stipulates ‘self determination’. Not the determination of a conquering power.
B) If it is one’s sovereign territory already, one is not ‘acquiring’ it, one is ‘restoring’ it. //
Right, Beer Sheva was not included in the proposed boundaries of the Jewish State according to the original 1947 UN partition plan. But that plan was rejected by the Arab side, which started a war to prevent its implementation, by force. So those boundaries are dead, killed by the Arab side. You can’t reject a plan, start a war, lose the war, and then revert to the plan you had originally rejected. It doesn’t work that way. It’s like bringing up GA resolution 194 to support the “right of return”.
False argument.
If Israel accepted the plan in 1947, then why did they not accept it in 1948? Israel’s acceptance of the plan was based on an agreement with the UN, not the Arabs. If employees get paid bonuses at he end of the year, and some employees leave before the bonuses are paid out, the uncollected surplus does not get divided up between remaining employees.
But that plan was rejected by the Arab side, which started a war to prevent its implementation, by force. So those boundaries are dead
according to whom are those boundaries dead? could you please source the international law that allows israel to unilaterally annex land based on this premise?
the Arab side… started a war to prevent its implementation, by force.
the arab side didn’t start any war. hundreds of thousands of palestinians had been expelled from their land (by jews) flocking into foreign arab lands prior to any arab armies attempts to protect what was left of palestine. and they did not invade israel, did they? they were in the area outside jewish jurisdiction.
So those boundaries are dead, killed by the Arab side.
according to..whom? the israelis? this is not the 17th century. after ww2 acquiring land by force and expelling the natives was illegal under international law. still is as far as i’ve heard.
You can’t reject a plan, start a war, lose the war, and then revert to the plan you had originally rejected.
actually it is against international law to acquire land thru war. so even if you were right (that jews did not initiate war w/hundreds of thousands of expulsions) which you are not, it’s against international law to annex the land.
It doesn’t work that way.
source? it might occur to you no one recognizes israels annexations except for…israel.
Irrelevant.
1) The plan WAS ACCEPTED by the Zionist Federation. It was used as the basis for the Jewish People’s Council’s Declaration for the Establishment of the State of Israel, who enshrined it in the declaration. It is STILL enshrined in the Declaration.
2) Israel was declared and recognized by the majority of the International Community of Nations/States according to the Israeli Government statement of 15th May 1948 “as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″
3) Israel CONFIRMED the extent of it’s sovereignty on the 22nd May 1948 in a statement to the UNSC as “within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″
4) Israel was accepted into the United Nations “as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″.
5) The Israeli Government CONFIRMED the extent of it’s Sovereignty in a statement to the UNSC on the 15th June 1949 as “… within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″
6) All the above occurred BEFORE Israel claimed any territories outside of the extent of it’s accepted, declared, recognized and CONFIRMED borders.
Furthermore, UNGA Res 181 was a non-binding resolution. Neither party was obliged to accept it. Neither party had to co-sign in order that either party declare. Neither party was prevented from declaring by the other party not accepting the resolution.
The preemptive Plan Dalet escalated the civil war pre-May 15th 1948. “at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time.” the civil war became a war waged by the State of Israel on what remained of Palestine. The Arab States, as Regional Powers and as representatives of the remainder of Palestine, had a right to attempt to expel foreign forces from the territory of their ward under the UN Charter Chapter XI. Which is why there is no UNSC Resolution condemning the Arab States Declaration on the Invasion of Palestine.
” So those boundaries are dead, killed by the Arab side”
They were CONFIRMED by the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT. AFTER the state was declared by them, AFTER the state was recognized by them, after the State was accepted into the UN.
“You can’t reject a plan…”
Non-binding, not obligatory. They could and did reject the plan and in doing so registered the legal basis of their argument since. That of Persistent Objection.
Israel on the other hand ACCEPTED and CONFIRMED it’s borders and the extent of Israeli Sovereignty was recognized by it’s announced borders. It has no claim to Persistent Objection that it’s borders weren’t delineated because the Arab States failed to accept UNGA Res 181. (not that it would be a valid argument anyway)
“…start a war…”
Preemptive wars are started by the preemptor.
“…lose the war…”
Uh? The Arabs states lost what in the ’48/’50 war? They prevented Israel from taking all of post Mandate, post Israeli declaration, Palestine. They held the Gaza Strip. They held what became the West Bank.
“….and then revert to the plan”
Uh? Under the law and the UN Charter there is no obligation for any state or entity to recognize any other state or entity. Numerous UN Member States do not recognize each other. They are never the less required to respect the law and the UN Charter. Whether the Arab States have recognized Israel or not, they are obliged to have “respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force” This isn’t reverting to the plan, it’s adhering to the law.
So tell us, what actual sovereign Israeli territory have the Arab States violated? Why is there no UNSC resolution condemning the Arab States for any alleged violation of Israeli Sovereignty?
“…It doesn’t work that way…”
Wrong on two counts. A) The Arab states did not ‘start a war’, did not ‘lose the war’, have not ‘reverted to the plan’ B) Even had they started a war, it is still inadmissible for Israel or any other entity to ‘acquire’ territory by war. ANY WAR. ‘acquiring’ is obtaining something not previously sovereign to an entity. One may ‘restore’ one’s sovereign territory by war. No sovereign Israeli territory has ever been taken in order for Israel to have to ‘restore’ it.
“It’s like bringing up GA resolution 194 to support the “right of return”.
RoR exists beyond UNGA Res 194. Res 194, although non-binding, cites obligations under the Law, the UN Charter and the Conventions, which ARE binding.
Lets take the bet:
The guy who shot that grad rocket
a) his wife bleed to death at Israeli checkpoint after giving birth to still born child
b) His brother went insane after being tortured in Israeli prison
c) His young son was kept naked in a Israeli military garrison and they made him drink toilet water
d) Israelis smeared faeces on the pages of Koran in his house
e) His sister was sexually abused after being arrested
f) His father was repeatedly humiliated in front of all his neighbours by teenage IDFs and now is a wreck of person
g) He lost the use of his left arm after being hit by settlers car for sport
h) His grandma was shot while sitting outside of her house by a sniper bullet from the settlement
g) His own house has been demolished by Israeli buldozer with his disabled grandfather still in the building
Answers on the postcards please.
“Answers on the postcards please”
All of the above?
Yep, nice try jon s to derail the thread and talk about your preferred victim narrative, in the vague and useless hope that it might obscure the daily tyranny and ethnic cleansing that Israel practices. Hardly an equivalence is it? Perhaps you would like to consider the genuine fear and terror that Palestinians daily live with, as practised by the IDF and the setter-terrorists.
You forgot one (possibly the most likely IMHO):
h) He was, as a child, kidnapped by Israeli Soldiers, tortured, sexually abused, or threatened with same. Suitably terrified, in order to save himself, he agreed to work for the security services. At first it was just supplying low level info such as who lives where, who meets who etc, but as he grew older the demands became more extreme. All the while the Security services threatened to out him as their agent if he didn’t comply. Eventually he ended up forming, or just becoming a member of, a fake Terror-gang with a big scary name like ‘Al Qaida In Gaza’, setup by Security Services in order to help them in their propaganda efforts by firing off rockets whenever the Israelis need an excuse to end a ceasefire and massacre civilians in somewhere like Gaza, or just need something to point to, to show how ‘under existential threat’ they are, from what are in effect just large-fireworks.
I imagine jonny boy will have left, now. Not that he cares.
Sorry,I don’t understand.
Fair enough, I’m surprised. Usually you guys flee or devolve into name calling when the conversation gets serious.
Eva, The analysts are saying that the rocket may have been launched by the Islamic Jihad organization, people who think the Hamas are too moderate, people who would gladly kill you , too.
Why can’t you bring yourself to simply condemn terrorism?
1 ) It is a good idea to condemn terrorism – actually, that is what this post is all about, if I’m not mistaken. Uprooting of olive trees, house demolitions, reports of F16s flying over Gaza last night, shooting old men and farmers in the buffer zone, Cast Lead – how is this NOT terrorism? This is the misconception that only non-state actors can perpetrate terrorism – totally false. So, the question becomes : WHICH terrorism should we condemn?
2 ) This is interesting, and analogous to the “analysis” around the Lara Logan aggression in Tahrir share in Cairo recently, as some were stating, “Why can’t you just condemn the attack and leave it at that?” It is totally missing the point. This refusal to put events into a broader context and to analyse not only the event itself, but the reactions to the event and the reasons for these reactions, is typical of the selective thinking of those who only want to see the events in the narrowest terms which would corroborate their worldview.
3 ) The belief that Palestinians are incapable of feeling the same fear as a result of Israeli terror tactics as Israelis are as a result of Palestinian terror tactics (rocket attacks, which are far less damaging, and almost non-existent now) is a result of deep-seated racism – they are “thick-skinned”, don’t worry, they can handle it because they are not as sensitive as us…
Lots more to say on that.
bingo if you do not understand why something is happening you can’t ecsure it happens or doesn’t happen
Why can’t you bring yourself to simply condemn terrorism?
Your post was off-topic. Why did you feel the need to post about the rocket on this particular thread and not another, and why could you not bring yourself to condemn the terrorism that is mentioned in the header? Why did you feel the need to change the subject instead? You wan’t everyone to stop what they are discussing so that you can claim victimhood? If you have no sympathy for others, why do you think that you deserve it in return?
tree, I think your response to jon was more appropriate than mine. It was absurd of him to offer this distraction on this thread. On the other hand, I was incensed at his obliviousness to the enormously more harsh reality that his country imposes on another people, even in this particular post.
David, in this case I plead guilty to posting off-topic. I admit that after the rocket hit, I wrote that brief comment in the first thread I saw.
I’m not oblivious to Palestinian suffering, I thought I was clear on that. And yes, they deserve equality, as do all people.
I also don’t agree with your version of the historical record.
Incidentally, have you ever visited Israel?
When your military retaliates, and a farm gets flattened or a refugee camp gets shelled or another father loses several children, will you condemn that terrorism?
jon, what do you think of the killing of innocent civilians over the last couple weeks in gaza? any comments?
do you think a whole in a wall in beersheva is as equally horrifying as a dead palestinian child? if so how?
btw, fustering linked to a sky video w/an interview w/mershaal recently and he was asked why he approved of targeting civilians in israel. he said (paraphrasing)’ we do not ever target civilians. our rockets are very crude and we cannot aim them, let us have decent weapons and we will agree only to target only israel’s military’. do you think that would be a more reasonable policy? if not why?
how many killing of innocent palestinians over 2 few week period warrants a response? if it was your children getting killed would you condemn israel for responding?
do you advocate israel putting down it’s weapons?
if you had to choose between one or the other would you prefer for your children to be abducted in the middle of the night by hamas, or a rocket go off in your vicinity where no one died?
thanks in advance for your response to my 8 questions.
I’ll try to answer:
-I absolutely condemn any killing of innocent civilians. If it can be proved that civilians were deliberately or negligently targetted – those responsible should be prosecuted and punished.
- of course a dead child is worse than property damage. I’m surprised that you even ask.
-I didn’t see the Mash’al video but from you description it sounds like he was being cynical . Provide the Hamas with more accurate weapons. Right, that makes a lot of sense. The Hamas target civilians, they have always targetted civilians, not only with rockets. We remember their suicide/homicide bombers – the busses, restaurants, and so forth.
-As I said, killing innocent people is unjustified. Killing armed terrorists is another matter.
-No, I don’t advocate Israel commiting suicide.
-Clearly, second option, no-brainer. Although I must admit I’m not
sure what the question is trying to prove.
OK, now a few questions for you, Annie:
1. Do you recognize the existence of a category of “innocent civilians” in regard to Israelis?
2. Under what circumstances, if any, would Israel be justified in exercising the right to self-defense?
3. Are you Jewish?
yes
if a person blast into their house in the middle of the night and started dragging off their children i would support them shooting the imposture. israel has no right to self defense on stolen land or stolen homes. they have no right to defend themselves or settlers in the occupied territory, a territory they are stealing. israel is does not for the most part (rarely) defending itself, it is in the continued process of land theft and ethnic cleansing. shooting children to protect illegal walls is not defense. invading homes in the middle of the night is not defense. it is offense. any fool knows that.
no
There is no internationally agreed formula for a ratio of valuing a military target against civilians who might also be slaughtered.. Civilians are factored in to military targets as collateral, by the person in the field, the armament is then PURPOSEFULLY fired.
Odd. Statistics show they have hit more military targets with their wonky rockets, than civilian. Only the person firing an unguided rocket knows what they are aiming at.
JonS, other analysts are saying that the rocket MAY (or MAY NOT) have been launched by someone connected to the Security Services of Israel, people who think the Arabs are scum, people who would gladly kill you, too.
Why can’t you bring yourself to simply condemn the people connected to Security Services of Israel?
JonS, other analysts are saying that the rocket MAY (or MAY NOT) have been launched by someone connected to the Security Services of Israel
omg, israel? engage in false flag? never. you watch, this rocket will get more traction on blogs and msm than 50 dead palestinians or kidnapped and tortured children.
you can’t expect people to have any sympathy when they’re as lost as this bunch are.
they’ve made up their minds that it’s all black and white.
and you’re one of the bad guys.
nothing else matters.
I don’t feel sympathy for someone who caused their own problems. might feel sorry for them but never sympathy
Because it’s a bit like condemning violence, it’s pointless.
Call your Reps cut off aid to Israel. Call and contact media outlets demand that they cover what is going on in the West Bank and on ILLEGAL Israeli settlements
The Jewish State going against ye olde Prophets of Israel tch tch tch
Louis Theroux: “The Ultra Zionists” BBC documentary :
link to youtube.com
@ 24:30 :
In this segment, Israeli settlers set fire to tires in retaliation (“price tagging”) for the government taking down their home.
What’s curious here is that the settler (winemaker) in this segment, whose land is being attacked by fire, does not put the blame on the settlers, whose actions are directly responsible for the fire spreading, but on the government for demolishing their house. Of course, you can imagine that his reaction would have been markedly different if it had been Palestinians who had set the fire.
at 27:05 the money shot :
Hmm…
this video should be front paged
This is all my fault! If I had kept up my policy of regularly posting the link to:
link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
maybe JonS wouldn’t be adhering so closely to the script in the article, and might even try something new.