Check this out, everything about this sends chills down my spine. New Seasons Grocery stores markets themselves as local and socially conscious.
We're passionate about the community where we all live. That's one of the reasons we give first preference to local growers, fishers, farmers and ranchers. New Seasons Market is proud to donate 10 percent of our after-tax profits to nonprofit (501 c3) organizations in the Portland area. Greatest attention is given to organizations dedicated to feeding the hungry, educating our youth and improving our environment. A common theme running through many of us is our enthusiasm for giving back to our neighborhoods.
Yeah, well giving back to your neighbors while profiting off apartheid isn't cool. This is cool and one of the best BDS flashmobs I've ever seen:
“New Seasons cannot claim to be friendly and local while it continues to stock products made by Israel, a gross violator of international law,” said Wael Elasady, member of Students United for Palestinian Equal Rights and flashmob participant. “There’s a glaring discrepancy between their ethical image and the products they profit from.”
at 3:01 in the video: “the friendliest store in town”.
friendly to whom?
thanks for sharing this annie and thanks to those who organized this and participated directly in it too… this is great! trying to raise awareness on a simple connection of buying and supporting something you either support, or you don’t…
Great stuff good people of Portland!
Hahahaha – them zio-friendly companies are the OPPOSITE of echo-friendly. Deceiving their customers through ‘green packaging’: they’ve been so comfortable in their double-lying-standards for so long now that it’s good to think of the execs shaking in their little ‘local’ shoes in backrooms while trying to figure out how to get out of this ‘local’ PR disaster!
The power of this event is that it took place INSIDE the criminal supermarket. That sends out a strong warning message indeed.
Hahaha I just love a good old-fashioned name-and-shame dance routine!
Good and very pleasing catch annie!
thanks taxi!
link to stopthejnf.org
Performance artists plant trees in luxury cosmetics store linked to Israeli land grabs.
annie, you might want to boost this one. cheers pat
What sends chills down my spine is the racist boycott.
lol, bwahhhhhh
Says the guy who’s squatting in a house that his government built for him after stealing the land from the ethnically cleansed Palestinian residents of Najd.
Chaos, I see that you’re still using the same debating technique: misrepresenting and falsifying what your opponent stands for, trying to force me to chase you with denials, clarifications and so forth ( that I’m not “squatting”, the government didn’t build my home – I wish it had!- and I don’t live in a place called Najd…).
Do you even know where Najd used to be? Or are you really that willfully blind?
While you’re at it, can you explain how I can possibly be “racist” toward some guy who, very probably, has skin as white as mine and shares common geographic ancestry? Since both of our ancestors came from Europe and — unless I miss my guess — German or Poland? (I have ancestors from both places.)
What happened to the campaign against Caterpillar? Did the BDS activists give up? Looks like the stock price just keep on rocketing up.
My investment strategy is to buy whatever BDS targets.
There were Americans who invested in Nazi Germany’s occupation too. Not a huge shocker, Julian.
your living on land legally owned by others so yeah you are squating. and if you live in serdot you do live in Najd. just because your thug government plowed it under and changed the name doesn’t mean the old rightfull name disappears. just like when poland finally got Gdansk back it doesn’t invalidate the old german name of danzig.
Chaos , try to get over your skin-color obsession.
Yeah, Julian, like the Bush family.
Yeah, Julian, lots of those German firms that served Hitler are doing really fine too despite all those years American Jews wouldn’t, e.g., own a Mercedes; so what’s new? Anyway, BDS is not relevant to Caterpillar’s stock rise, profits because strong demand for mining equipment mostly caused the revenue rise, while demand for construction equipment has been slow to recover —as has demolition equipment. Actually it’s a very slow recovery and will remain so until construction activity rebounds in the developed world.
How about after you move away from your ethnically cleansed enclave in Sderot, jon. Bother reading up on where Najd was yet?
Jon s, how is it racist? Pls explain.
Israeli is not a race, but it is a violent nationalism. A nationalism based on a religious ideology that is able to rationalize the confiscation of other people’s land with deadly force and totalitarian terror. A deadly force subsidized by American tax payers is what motivates people to oppose Israel with a nonviolent boycott movement. Since this opposition to Israeli aggression is nonviolent, the fear it generates must either be a propaganda ploy designed to appeal to the empathy many feel for the victims of historical racism or a self-righteous delusion. Oppressors use both tactics to rationalize their use of deadly force against a defenseless victim.
I called it fascist, but a “moderator” apparently kicked it out.
Richard Witty said, ‘I have time to call an exhilarating group of peaceful young demonstrators “fascist.” But I hope noone (sic) noticed that I had nothing at all to say about the Israeli police who beat and arrested Lucas Koerner, as he tried to “make the better argument” on a Jerusalem street..
‘My 2-faced double standard has never been more obvious.’
Shouldn’t the quotes be around “fascist” in your post? That’s where the ironic word usage is.
Maximum LOL!
“I called it fascist”
Says the racist and the fascist draped in a new age garb!
Our post Zionist is still nodtalgic for the good ok days of Apartheid South Africa.
how is it racist? makes no sense to boycot things that don’t support the occupation if we want to end the boycot? your just another whiny israel supporter who gets your knickers in a twist when people stand up toIsrae’s thuggery
Thank you so much Annie. Watching this did indeed give me chills. Like so many people my age we protested, lobbied, took over Representative and University offices during the civil rights movement Vietnam, and ending Apartheid in South Africa. But who is going to arrest you for dancing and singing against apartheid. Was able to participate in the Move over Aipac flash mob in union station. Just love it. What a way to get out the message, the facts, stimulate awareness.
I agree best one yet
I agree best one yet
i love the male to female ratio, the strength of their beat, the lyrics, the youth..very forward and modern. i hope this video travels far and wide.
Will move it in the ways that I can. Share folks share
On a related note, an EU court has declared that marking foodstuffs as “made in Israel” when they were in fact made in the OT is deceptive and needs to stop: link to electronicintifada.net
Thanks, Citizen. Let’s hope this movement accelerates.
“The UK agency and the EU court decisions are indicative of the fast-growing international boycott, divestment and sanctions movement — more consumers are choosing not to buy products from the Israeli settlements.”
Did the activists do any research on the owners Rohter and Brady? They are dealing with racist Jewish Zionists thoroughly committed to the proposition that Jews may defame, loot, and kill non-Jews. They are not going to agree to boycott Israeli products.
Let’s see which products they mentioned:
Osem couscous and falafel mix: As far as I know, Osem only manufactures inside pre-1967 Israel.
Binyamina Cabarnet Merlot: Manufactured in a winery in Binyamina, also well within pre-1967 Israel.
Ener-G Wheat Free Crackers: I don’t know where this is manufactured – whether in pre-1967 Israel or the territories.
Kedem Kosher Tea Biscuits: Ditto – don’t know if it is made in pre-1967 Israel or the territories.
Est1982, I’ve argued several times that a blanket boycott of Israel is morally wrong and politically counter- productive. As an Israeli peacenik I support and practice a boycott of the settlements. Why would a company such as Barkan Wines, which pulled out of the territories to back inside the Green Line, do so if they would be boycotted anyway?
For your information the Gush Shalom website has a pretty comprehensive list of products made in the settlements.
jon s, I attended an Omar Barghouti speech s few weeks ago and he made an excellent argument on this point. If there were a boycott of China over its occupation of Tibet, it would make no sense to boycott only products made by the Chinese in Tibet. To put pressure on China, the boycott must be directed at China. The same is true of Israel. Israel rules over 11 million people, and 4 million are deprived of any rights at all. Boycotting Israel over Israeli policy is perfectly legitimate. Moreover, your complaint that the boycott is somehow “racist” is absurd. The goal of the BDS movement is to achieve equal rights for Jews and non-Jews in Israel/Palestine. That is clearly an anti-racist goal. If you think BDS is the wrong tactic to achieve that goal, make your case, and in fact you do, though I don’t agree with it. But to label it “racist” because it seeks to pressure a group that is most clearly asserting an ethnic-based superiority over another group is to repeat a deliberate distortion and cynically play the “anti-Semite card.” It is no different than the accusation of anti-semitism hurled against those who favor one state of equal citizens because they wish to “destroy” the Jewish State.
I think it contains the possibility of a fascist movement, and because it is directed at the people of one race, racist.
The fascist prospect is created by the vagueness of the movement, most prominently the vagueness over what is meant by “right of return”.
If right of return refers to the right of individual Palestinians that were forcefully removed from their homes in 1948 to make legal claims for compensation or repatriation to Israel, that is an assertion of law.
If right of return refers to the right of any descendant of any that calls themselves Palestinian wherever they or their family lived to return to Israel, that is fascist.
To be confidently progressive, the movement requires that clarification.
Richard Witty said, ‘It’s too bad Israeli police didn’t come to Portland and attack the peaceful demonstrators. In that case, I would have absolutely nothing at all to say.’
No, if your message is that the occupation is wrong, you should boycott the occupation. If you boycott Israel as a whole, you’re sending the message that the very existence of Israel is illegitimate.
As Jon says, and as I wrote in a comment on a different post, an all-out boycott is counter-productive. My reaction to BDS is anger, not “oh, quick, let’s get the hell out of the West Bank before our economy is ruined” – and I’m one of those who want to leave the West Bank!
BDS is also simplistic, as if the situation is entirely Israel’s fault. It takes two to tango (and to reach a peace agreement).
The only invective you guys forgot to hurl at us anti-apartheid activists is “Nazis.”
“But to label it “racist” because it seeks to pressure a group that is most clearly asserting an ethnic-based superiority over another group is to repeat a deliberate distortion and cynically play the “anti-Semite card.”
“ethnic based superiority?”
Oh, please.
You know, it’s a good thing that nobody in the BDS movement is anti-semitic, otherwise people could get the wrong idea.
Werdine, you’re a white guy from Michigan and you can go to Israel right this minute and get fast-laned for citizenship.
Seham’s family lived there for generations and if she tried to return, it’s likely she’d be turned back at the airport before even getting in, let alone getting citizenship to her people’s ancestral homeland.
You’re white, she’s not, you’re privileged, she’s not. And you like it that way. So don’t “Oh, please,” us. Racists flinging the word “racists” around is laughable.
Which is why your country and its industries label the goods they reap from the Occupied Territories as “Made in Israel.” See you in EU court.
I think it contains the possibility of a fascist movement, and because it is directed at the people of one race, racist.
Israel is not “one race.”
(Further, Israel is a nation that wants to play in the global world of nations. It needs to grow up and stop acting like a hurtin’ cowboy because the world community objects to its policies.)
No, if your message is that the occupation is wrong, you should boycott the occupation.
To end Apartheid, the whole country was boycotted because the while country was responsible for allowing it. It was government policy. Dame with Israel and the Israeli government.
No, the message is loud and clear. You’re just conning up with a lame excuse, the same one Israel use whenever someone opposes them.
Like I said to Jon, your claim doesn’t hold water. An all out boycott of South Africa was very productive.
Like Jon, the reason you support a partial boycott is so it doesn’t affect you.
My reaction to getting a speeding ticket or a parking fine is anger, not “oh, quick, let’s pay the fine so the goverent has more money. What your desiring is an juvenile response for having to deal with the consequences of your country’s policies. You’ve had 44 years to do something about and refused, so no longer so you get to insist that punishment remains on your terms.
BDS is also simplistic, as if the situation is entirely Israel’s fault. It takes two to tango (and to reach a peace agreement).
It is is entirely Israel’s fault. There was no occupation, unless your prescription for solving a rape case is for the woman to admit she was to blame for wearing suggestive clothing.
Seriously, the more I hear you liberal Zionists open your mouths to change feet, the more I’m convinced that Zionism is a degenerate.
Just like we know that the Haganah, Stern and Irfun weren’t really terrorists, but good Jewish boys who were simply crying while shooting.
When people complain about Witty’s confused writings, they neglect to note that perversion of the language is symptomatic of zionists. Only by completely changing the meanings of “fascist” or “racist” can the “right of return” for Palestinian descendants of original refugees be called that. Zionists (as usual) are looking for a negative label to stick on proposals they oppose. The label doesn’t stick to this one! In fact, calling for the right of return for Palestinians is the opposite of fascism.
Here’s wikipedia on fascism:
Those calling for the right of return for the native people of Palestine are doing the exact opposite of trying to create a national community with individuals bound together by ancestry, culture and blood, they’re trying to create a more diverse population in Israel. In fact, zionism meets the definition of several aspects of fascism – it seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination and does it’s level best to use family policy (and other means) to limit the “demographic” threat of too many non-Jews. Zionists certainly seeks to bind Jewish individuals together through “suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood” Yup, zionism is pretty close to fascism, especially the settler ideology.
Making the claim that bds is racist similarly requires reversing the definition of racism – the bds goal that the native people of Palestine i.e. Palestinian Arabs have equal rights including the right to reside in their land of origin is racist? Yet excluding them, and continuing practice of ethnic cleansing and discrimination which zionists support isn’t? Or how about just making things up about bds like it’s “directed at the people of one race?” What? Perhaps it’s Witty’s suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture or blood exhibiting as a nationalistic binding to the zionist state of Israel?
“To be confidently progressive, the [bds] movement requires clarification” – excuse me while I die laughing. Zionists, Witty is among the forefront of them on this blog, have a pattern of saying up is down and wrong is right. In this case, Witty uses “clarification” to mean “spreading confusion about” or maybe just “calling it anything progressives don’t like until it changes into something zionists like (but is totally anti-progressive)”
You are assuming that Israel labels all products made in the occupied West Bank as products of the West Bank.
But, in fact, Israel exports many products that originate from the West Bank and the Golan and even Jordan, with a label that reads: “Israel”.
So a so-called limited boycott of settlement products is a farce. It achieves nothing as other products continue to be exported as though they were made in Israel proper.
As for Israel’s legitimacy, Israel was never legitimate. It wasn’t legitimate in 1948 when the Zionist lobby strong-armed the US into recognizing Israel and it isn’t legitimate today as an Apartheid state, an Ethnocratic state in which one ethnicity enjoys a superior official status.
Further Israel has not even stuck to the borders it itself proclaimed it had in 1948 when it asked for recognition, nor has it ever fullfilled the conditions subsequent attached to the validity of its chair at the UN among the nations.
And there is currently an international law court suit against Israel for allowing Israeli companies in the OT to brand their goods “Israel,” or “Made In Israel.”
“If right of return refers to the right of any descendant of any that calls themselves Palestinian wherever they or their family lived to return to Israel, that is fascist.”
Why is it not “fascist” for every Jew to have the”right of return” to a place that they and their families have never lived?
“If you boycott Israel as a whole, you’re sending the message that the very existence of Israel is illegitimate.”
Israeli apologists now accuse critics of “delegitimizing” Israel, since it no longer works to accuse critics of “antisemitism.” This is a strategy that reminds people think about whether or not Israel is legitimate, and then they realize that it’s not. Israel has absolutely no right to exist.
Dr. Joseph Massad explains this very clearly, in “The Rights of Israel”–
link to english.aljazeera.net
But back to the Portland BDS flashmob: these people are terrific!!!!! This is the best flashmob video I’ve seen yet!
On the contrary Lyn,
Witty is very much a Zionist sterotype. His perversion extends to logic, morality, history, facts and reason as well as a languge.
>> Here’s wikipedia on fascism:
The best definition of fascism I’ve read (in ‘the Nature of Fascism’) is the belief in an organic community which must achieve a certain state of being it previously held.
Doesn’t sound like Zionism at all!
The fundamental ideological components shared by Zionism and German Nazism are: politicized ethnic fundamentalism, extremist organic nationalism, social Darwinism, biological determinism, essentialism, primordialism, perverted eugenic theory, opposition to race mixing for causing ethnic degeneration, and the corresponding belief in national revival through racial purity.
Jews (even many self-avowed Jewish anti-Zionists) often become indignant, claim Jews could not possibly be Nazis, and fling accusations of anti-Semitism when anyone points out that German Nazism and Zionism are for all intents and purposes practically identical when the obvious substitutions are made. To believe that Jews of all ethnic groups could not possibly be Nazis or develop their own form of Nazi ideology is simply an assertion of Jewish racial or ethnic supremacism associated with the idea of Jewish ethical or spiritual superiority.
>> I think it contains the possibility of a fascist movement, and because it is directed at the people of one race, racist.
Israel is the nation state of Israelis. Last I heard – and contrary to your deepest, darkest and most hatefully supremacist desires – Israelis are not “the people of one race”.
>> If right of return refers to the right of any descendant of any that calls themselves Palestinian wherever they or their family lived to return to Israel, that is fascist.
Then it must be the height of fascism to insist that a right of return to ethnically-cleansed Palestine exists for any descendant of any that calls themselves Israelites/Jews whose family – scores of centuries earlier – may or may not have actually lived.
Don’t you ever tire of being an astounding hypocrite?
“If you boycott Israel as a whole, you’re sending the message that the very existence of Israel is illegitimate.”
It is illegitimate, of course.
“The best definition of fascism I’ve read (in ‘the Nature of Fascism’) is the belief in an organic community which must achieve a certain state of being it previously held.”
I agree there’s nothing organic about zionism. Nevertheless, many zionists persist in believing that Jews have a valid claim on the land because the only pre-existing sovereign nation in Palestine was a Jewish one, and furthermore, many believe it was called Israel. Many promote the belief that the “Jewish people” originated in this place, and “returning” to it is therefore returning to a state being previously held. Count a false belief in an organic community among zionist myths, count it as deliberately spread.
I agree with you on Witty being very much being a stereotypical zionist in perversion of language, and perhaps I didn’t make myself clear or was unfair (for which I apologize) to people who point out his muddled thinking, many people do so but I haven’t seen as many highlight that the perversion of language like Witty’s is symptomatic of zionism.
If right of return refers to the right of any descendant of any that calls themselves Palestinian wherever they or their family lived to return to Israel, that is fascist.
Witty you Zionists are such criminal trolls when it comes to the subject of refugee rights. The commentary on Article 49(6) of the Geneva Convention points out that destruction of the inhabitants as a separate people was one of the goals during WWII when some countries colonized others and displaced or deported the indigenous peoples. Raphael Lemkin coined the term genocide for the practice. It involved military attacks, occupation, and eviction with the intent of destroying the members of a targeted group as a social unit in their distinctiveness and particularity and their feeling of belonging together. A biological-physical destruction was not necessary, since forcibly transferring children of the group to some other group is considered a constituent act of the crime of genocide. The 1951 Refugee Convention recognized that principle. It stipulated that the unity of the family was the natural and fundamental group unit of society and that maintaining family unity is an essential right of the refugee. You constantly express support for the proposition that Israelis should profit from their own criminal wrongdoing at the expense of Palestinian society and families.
The Zionists have always claimed the legal right of any so-called Jew or “Jewish convert” to “return” and live anywhere within the vaguely defined borders of “Eretz Yisrael” in accordance with the biblical legends. That “right” spans at least a hundred generation gap in residency and is supposedly based upon the Balfour Declaration, the San Remo resolution, and the now-terminated League of Nations Mandate. It really doesn’t matter whether a convert’s family ever lived in the land during the Second Temple period thousands of years ago. FYI, the Israeli Supreme Court and the International Court of Justice rejected that “fascist” argument. They held that post-mandate era Jewish settlers have no inherent legal right to live in the occupied territories. See the related rulings regarding the legal rights of settlers living under regimes of belligerent occupation in the ICJ Wall case and HCJ 1661/05 The Gaza Coast Regional Council v. The Knesset et al.
Children born in refugee camps abroad and dependents born on military bases overseas normally do acquire the nationality of their parents and usually do return to their countries of nationality. So, 2nd and 3rd generation refugee descendents living in camps located in Thailand, Pakistan, and Iran have been “repatriated” to Laos, Cambodia, and Afghanistan because they are members of those societies. The UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) plans to do the same thing with most of the more than one hundred thousand people from Myanmar who have been living in Thailand for more than 20 years.
Kris, yeah, that immediately struck me too–Witty’s zionist mote totally blinds him to the irony of his own words in the face of reality. Witty, try this on for size: “If right of return refers to the right of any descendant of any that calls themselves Jewish wherever they or their family lived to return to Israel after thousands of years, assuming their ancestors ever lived there in the first place, that is fascist.”
Lyn117, in Witty’s profession, it’s called “creative accounting.” And it’s agenda is as obvious.
The Wiki definition of fascism is incorrect.
Fascism, which is a revision of Marxism, attempts to demonstrate that class conflict can be transcended via national revival. In fascist thinking, the nation need not be defined according to racist or voelkisch principles, but when it is (especially in the German context), the precise terminology is Volkssocialism, and Chaim Arlosoroff expounded the fascist principles of Labor Zionism in book entitled Der juedische Volkssozialismus. The Strasser faction of German Nazism could also be described as Volkssocialist.
Volkssocialism, either in the Arlosoroff of Strasser formulation, should be considered a form of Nazism with fascist elements.
Mainstream German Nazism maps exactly into the currently dominant Jabotinskian formulation of Zionism. [I borrowed and slightly modified the following list from an earlier comment by Shingo.]
1. Zionism like German Nazism is indeed a political/secular philosophy and movement.
2. Israel absolutely exalts nation and ethnicity above the individual, no question. Can anyone say, right of return? Israel is never described a state of individuals, but a collective belonging to the Jewish people and thereby qualifying the rights of individuals as secondary.
2. Israel is a militaristic state, where the military lives by it’s own rules. The government is indeed centralized. One need only read the charters of all political parties to realize they are one and the same.
3. Israel does not have an autocratic leader but does exercise severe economic and social regimentation as well as forcible suppression of opposition, in this care, the Arab parties.
4. Suppression of non-violent opposition? Can anyone say Gaza, Fatah? Does shooting demonstrators not qualify as suppression of non-violent opposition?
5. Politicized ethnic fundamentalism is rampant and unambiguous. All political parties are unanimously dedicated to the maintaining of Jewish state and to only recognizing the right of return of Jews. As the saying goes, the right are unabashed about wanting to remove the Arabs. The left will agree as long as the buses are air conditioned. [To be more precise, one should identify Jabotinskian Zionism as ethnic monist. Thus Zionism is more extreme than German Nazism.]
6. Extremist organic nationalism is blatantly obvious. Israel has moved so far to the right that it will soon pop up on the left.
7. Whether there are Jews of every race is irrelevant because Israel practices racial and bigoted discrimination against non-Jews.
8. Social Darwinism might not have been a component of Zionism, but it has become embedded in Zionist ideology. [Actually both Herzl and Max Nordau were unabashed social Darwinists.]
9. Biological determinism is a component of Zionism because rights (and presumptive character) of individuals are ideological determined according to birthright. Over half of the Jewish population in Israel believes the marriage of a Jewish woman to an Arab man is equal to national treason.
10. Essentialism is the very foundation of Zionism. It is the belief that Jews are unique and as such, will never be accepted into wider society.
11. Primordialism. Most Jews are not related in any way to the Biblical Israelites but are in fact the descendants of relatively recent converts to the religion.
12. Perverted eugenic theory is indeed a fundamental aspect of Zionism. Zionism is based on the belief that all Jews and the descendants of Biblical Israelites even though the claim is founded in scientic impossibility [and explicitly contradicted by the Bible in the Book of Esther.]
13. Opposition to race mixing: Over half of the Jewish population in Israel believes the marriage of a Jewish woman to an Arab man is equal to national treason. Many if not most Jewish Zionists believe that Jews who intermarry are self-hating Jews.
14. If there is any state that exemplifies the belief in national revival through racial purity, Israel is it. Israel believes a piece of land belongs to Jews, which only makes sense in the context of Jews being genetically related to one another and descended from Biblical Israelites.
Take practically Zionist ideological document.
If German Aryan is substitued for Jew, if the German State is substituted for Israel, if Jew is substituted for Arab, and if ancient Teutons is substituted for Biblical Israelites, the above summary description applies almost exactly to German Nazism. [Note that Hitler was not nearly as autocratic as Western historiography tends to depict him especially because the obvious contemporary comparison would be the far more autocratic Joseph Stalin.]
Zionism is Jewish Nazism — no ifs, ans, or buts, and there is no doubt that modern Israel is far more Nazi in terms of the beliefs of the Jewish settler colonist population than the Third Reich ever was with respect to its German Christian population.
New readers BEWARE: Mondoweiss is the target of Israel’s propaganda (hasbara) machine. Robert Werdine is one of a number of hasbarists who arrive at the site throughout the day.
RoHa, thanks for proving es1982′s point.
while israel is indeed illgit. a fullout boycott doesn’t say that. it says your serious about your stated goal of ending the illegal occupation of 22% of palestine.
true a full on boycott is counter productive to your wish of finally stealing all of palestine. it isn’t for ending the occupation.
they also ignore the reason why the ror of extended to decendents.
exactly ignoring the fact most of the money for the settlements and such comes from the Israel government(the settlements are not self sufficient. they need the resources of Israel to exist) won’t stop the settlements. your got to take out their supply chain.
If you boycott Israel as a whole, you’re sending the message that the very existence of Israel is illegitimate
At this point, who cares?
It also comes from Jewish American NGOs with tax exemptions.
So, jon? It’s not our fault that your country was founded by Europeans obsessed with racial purity.
@”Chaos”
Jon S is right–anyone reading your posts could only conclude that you do have a skin-color obsession. It might hurt your poorly functioning chaotic brain, but whatever your stance on the Israeli Jewish-Palestinian Arab conflict, skin color has absolutely no relevance. Israeli Jews come in a variety of hues and skin tones, hair and eye colors, as do the Palestinian Arabs. Anyone familiar with this region of the Middle East would know that one can just as easily encounter Arabs who are fair of skin, hair and eye color, and dark-skinned Jews as the other way around, so your constant harping on about “white-skinned” Israelis is a silly trope.
Yes, but the difference I’ve learned is that Palestinians have no different terminology for darker or lighter skinned people among them.
Israelis do.
And no one’s buying that “post-racial society” garbage in the United States. We still have an awful lot of racism here, and anyone applying for jobs or traveling through airports can attest to that.
If you’re a dark skinned Jew or an Arab of any kind, then you are prevented from entering clubs by Ashkenazi bouncers, for example.
But, then again, skin has nothing to do with it. Right? Next, along the same false claim that every Arab is your friend, you will also claim that you know maaaaany non-Ashkenazi Jews. Get over yourself.
That’s a funny notion. Racism is quite widespread in Arab society, like most societies. Most of the minority of Arabs who are black can tell you that they are routinely referred to as ‘abd (slave) by other Arabic-speakers (very dark people of clear sub-Saharan African ancestry are found among the Negev Bedouin, for example, many are part of the Tarabeen tribe, and there are also pockets around Jerusalem and Jericho).
It’s really funny to get this sort of lecture from someone with a Russian-derived name. Where are you from exactly?
That certainly is reported to have happened in some isolated instances, and when it did, there was widespread outcry and denunciation, followed by bad press for the clubs in question, but you are outright lying when you state that’s the status quo. (Although I have heard of such things occurring in New York.) . I really can’t speak to how many darker-skinned Israelis I’ve seen in nightclubs, as I’ve only been to a nightclub once in my life about 20 years ago, but I know that I’ve seen many young, drunk, stupid Israelis of all skin tones and backgrounds acting like asses outside clubs, going into nightclubs and exiting nightclubs, on Allenby and around Nemal Tel Aviv. (I can think of better ways to spend one’s time and money than to go to a nightclub, whether in Israel or anywhere else. ) As stupid as going to a nightclub is, it’s indefensible to deny anyone entrance to one on the grounds of skin color, and I believe the club in question that allegedly barred an Ethiopian-Israeli soldier on leave is getting sued and has lost a lot of business.
Right. I’ve never felt oppressed by Israeli society because of my sexy, swarthy year-round tan. Although racism against
darker-skinned people certainly does exist in some quarters of Israeli society, just as it does in Arab society and everywhere else (and even in Africa, India and Haiti) skin color has zero to do with the Jewish/Arab conflict, which is really about two competing national claims for the same land. Both national communities, the Jewish national community and the Arab national community are composed of people who can be either dark-skinned or light-skinned. Constant references to “white” Israelis and “brown” Palestinians that I’ve seen on MW and other sites are simply not relevant and are an emotional appeal meant to draw sympathy for the Palestinian Arabs from know-nothings and witless undergrads by appealing to emotions of “racial” injustice.
I would never make any such claim, as there are so many Arabs I detest. (Just like there are so many Jews I detest.) Nevertheless, I have been fortunate to have had many Arab friends, neighbors and colleagues, who I have respected and admired. One of them is one of my best friends. I think I read some post where some idiot expressed skepticism that Israeli Jews such as myself could have Arab friends and called me a liar. Were you that idiot?
Considering the fact that I am of Mizrahi/Sefaradi descent and half my family is not Ashkenazi, it should not be surprising that I know many non-Ashkenazi Jews. Indeed, although my mother is of Ashkenazi background, if I were to meticulously follow traditional guidelines, I am not Ashkenazi at all (although Jewishness is determined matrilinealy, one is supposed to follow the father’s liturgical and ritual customs. Therefore, religiously at least –if I were still religious–I am considered Sefaradi/Mizrahi, as I am only supposed to follow my father’s Syrian-Jewish communal nusakh or minhagh).
By the way, many of my relatives in my father’s and my ex-wife’s extended Mizrahi families (laughably and erroneously called “Arab Jews” by doofuses like you) are lighter-skinned than many of my Ashkenazi mother’s relatives, quite a few of whom are “olive”-complected.
Chaos, does the US still maintain institutional racism? For how long now has affirmative action been a government policy? What is the purpose of the racial/ethnic identity questionaire on the federal census form? Is there good and bad racism, depending on who is the victim of racism? I worked in the corporate world for 20 years and my job included hiring and firing. Your comment does not reflect my experience; in fact, if anything the corporate world has gone out of its way to make sure minorities are not
the victims of any de facto or de jure discrimination based on their race, religion, or ethnic background, sometimes to the point of absurdity and reverse favoritism. I’m not saying racism does not exist in some portion of Americans, but certainly for decades now racism, at least in any overt form, is a badge of pariah. This is reinforced in every way conceivable by our Entertainment industry and our Education industry targeting every American consumer from a baby to a geezer.. What is your frame of reference for saying Americans do not live in a post-racial society and to say they do is “garbage?” And how much is “an awful lot of racism?” No government will ever completely eliminate racism or ethnic preference from the heart of every one of its citizens but surely the USA has made a substantial dent, no? What do you suggest government do to completely eliminate it from the heart of ALL citizens? Also, since the test of virtue is power, is every minority person immune from racism/ethnocentricism? If not,
how would you handle that?
“No, if your message is that the occupation is wrong, you should boycott the occupation.”
But “the occupation” doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It is entirely an Israeli project, which could be halted and reversed immediately if the Israelis wanted it. As such, all of Israel is responsible for it, so all are legitimate targets for BDS.
“If you boycott Israel as a whole, you’re sending the message that the very existence of Israel is illegitimate.”
No, you are simply receiving a message filtered through your institutionalized paranoia-cum-victimization mentality.
“BDS is also simplistic, as if the situation is entirely Israel’s fault.”
The occupation and the horrors it has enflicted, are entirely Israel’s doing. At any point over the last 40 years, it could have reversed it. It chose not to.
There is still a lot of covert, institutionalized racism in my estimation, Citizen. Off the top of my head, there’s the “volunteer” army we maintain that sends a disproportionate number of economically disadvantaged minorities to the front lines of (at least) two wars, and then there’s the disproportionate treatment of minorities when it comes not just to convictions but sentencing in our criminal justice system.
Woody, it isn’t true that we can just leave on our own. We need to leave safely, knowing we aren’t giving over the area to people who will turn it into a base for a war against us, like what happened when we unilaterally withdrew from southern Lebanon and Gaza. We can only leave as part of a peace deal – and reaching such a peace deal is a responsibility shared by both Israel and the Palestinians.
es1982,
You are conflating the occupation and the settlements. Israel could, tomorrow, empty the settlements and put all the settlers back where they belong (i.e., behind the 1967 lines), and still maintain an armed presence in the West Bank (putting aside for the moment the correctness of the justification for that armed presence.) There is nothing which prevents an end to the settlement project, except Israeli will.
es1982, I imagine, giving the number of blacks in apartheid S Africa in comparison to the whites, I imagine the regime at the time and the whites generally were at least as concerned as Jewish Israelis are now, yes? I think the most effective way to assure Israel’s safety is to get out of the OT completely and quit robbing most of the water. A peace settlement where Israel gets to keep all the areas in the OT they feel they need (plus control of the air and sea and water and no military) just to be secure leaves the Palestinians with very little, and that’s not mentioning the Palestinian ROR. Would you accept such a settlement if you were a Palestinian?
And it’s even funnier that you think my name is “Russian-derived”. “Mikhael” (מיכאל) is a Hebrew name, common among Jews and others, and is found in our Torah. It is the basis of the English-language “Michael”. I transliterate it online with “kh” to represent a more accurate pronunciation of the Hebrew letter “כ”–if I spelled it “Michael”, English-speakers would think it’s pronounced “My-Kull” and well, that would be silly.
Not that it’s any of your business, but I was born in the States to Israeli parents, and have lived in nearly equal measure in both countries . Part of my father’s family has been in Jerusalem for 18 traceable generations–a lot longer than some Arabs who’ve started calling themselves “Palestinian” recently.
By the way, what exactly do you think constitutes the “different terminology” that Israelis use “for darker or lighter-skinned people among them” is? Indeed, kushi is used in impolite circles for all black people (including Israelis of Ethiopian Jewish heritage), and kushi has acquired a pejorative connotation in modern Israeli Hebrew. Similarly, racist Arabs will throw out the ‘abd bomb at the black Arabs among them (and black people in general), but I can’t think of any specific Israeli term to differentiate between light-skinned Jews and dark-skinned Jews. What exactly are you referring to? You seemed to think “Mikhael” is a Russian name, I wonder what other silliness is in your head.
True, the settlements are entirely Israel’s fault and responsibility. If I got elected PM, I’d evacuate all settlements immediately. Unfortunately, there are so many settlers that it would be hard to get everybody out, which is why Israel wants to keep settlement blocks, in exchange for land swaps. But again, it is a problem of our own creation.
Citizen, like I said, peace is the responsibility of both sides. It isn’t only the Palestinians’ fault that there’s no peace, just like it isn’t only Israel’s fault.
You’re wrong. And calling me a liar is inappropriate when your past assertions had been proven to be not only false, but deliberately misleading.
But, for someone who admits to have been born and raised in the US, you sure make a lot of grandiose statements about an Israeli society you know very little about. Make sure you use sunblocker when you get your tan, though. I hear skin cancer is nasty.
I call you a liar because you are falsely stating that darker-skinned and Arabs are denied entrance to nightclubs, in Israel, as if that was an official policy. Has it happened? It most likely has, and there was one well publicized incident last year when a club allegedly refused to admit an Ethiopian soldier on leave. After the incident was publicized, the club was sued and it attracted a lot of negative attention. You portray this as if it is something routine, therefore, you are a liar.
According to you, my having been born in Boston and spending my childhood and teen years in the Midwest and NYC must negate everything I’ve learned about Israeli society through having Israeli parents, attending middle school in Israel, serving in the army service (sadir and miluim) spending about a decade of my adult life post-army, post-college, marrying an Israeli woman and having fathered Israeli-born daughters who still live there and whom I visit four times a year, all that is of no consequence, because yes, I “admit” that I was born in the US. I gather that I have spent more cumulative time in Israel than you have. When did you come to the US, when you were 4? Your mental age hasn’t changed.
Everybody should use sunblocker if they spend too much time in the sun, even sub-Saharan black Africans are susceptible to skin cancer. The thing is, aside from commuting to work by bike, I rarely get much sun, but I still seem to have this dark complexion all year round–even in the middle of a cold New York winter when I’m indoors all day. I don’t make a big deal about it or think about it much, I’m not race-obsessed like you or “Chaos”, but for some reason my father, a Mizrahi/Sefaradi Yerushalmi guy of partial Syrian-Jewish heritage, and my mother, a Hungarian Ashkenazia, shared the same Mediterranean complexion.
Please show me when I ever said every Arab was my friend. I just reviewed some old posts, and it jogged my memory–you definitely are the idiot who is incensed by my mentioning my Arab friends, who I only brought up in reply to Chao4700′s baseless accusation that I think all Arabs hate Jews. Not only that, I only mentioned it once, and I actually did so to defend Arabs from the calumny that they all hate Jews, something I know is false from my personal experience, but you, Avi, have mockingly brought up the fact that I mentioned that my social circle includes some Arab friends several times. Why does my having gone to Arab weddings and having some good Arab friends unbalance you so? Are you jealous because you’ve never been invited to an Arab wedding? It’s no big deal, really. You shouldn’t be jealous. The food is usually good, but you still get bored out of your mind like at any other wedding.
I just remembered that at the 2009 Eurovision song contest Israel was represented by an Israeli, Ahinoam Nini, and a Palestinian, Mira Awad. Who’s the one with the darker skin?
This whole subject is ridiculous and distasteful.
link to youtube.com
If you find this debate so distasteful then why prolong it? Seriously, are you bothering to read the post that was RIGHT BELOW this one when you posted? This one here? Pointing to here? You’re just trolling now, and dodging questions you can’t seem to answer, jon.
I did answer that question, just scroll down and see it.
Mikhael:
Let me tell you something unequivocally:
You have not earned the right to condescend to Avi, regardless of what you think your bona fides are with regard to Palestinian-Jewish relations.
What, you mean the “Israeli cuisine” and dancing gets boring to you?
Let me explain something to you in terms you may be able to understand. Every “Arab wedding” in Israel/Palestine is not only a celebration of the union of two individuals; no, it is also an acknowledgement and celebration of the fact that in spite of all Israeli policies intending the contrary, Palestinians still exist, and will always exist, on their ancestral land.
I’m glad you “just remembered” but your reasoning is facile and dishonest. Tokenism and hasbara answers your question.
I will say it again, for the hundredth time: The President of the United States is an African-American. Use that fact to argue that African-Americans have achieved equality in the US and watch how fast you get laughed out of the room. Your example is no different but congrats on the very strong attempt at racially tinted propaganda.
Witty says, “Hey, if the nearly all dead and gone generation of the 1948 Nakba want to fight in court, over the course of, let’s say, a decade or two, to earn their internationally recognized right to return to their own land, sure, let them do so. We will litigate them to death, literally. Problem solved. But what’s that you say? WHO? HAVE A RIGHT TO WHAT? Their descendants? (Shit, I don’t have an argument against that. Hmmm. I already used the “racist” argument on BDS. Let me think…) FASCIST!!”
I have read the above [blockquoted] statement by Witty maybe 5 times since it was posted and I still can’t help laughing. I think I snorted Barq’s root beer out of my nose the first time I read it. Good times.
It’s not in my nature to be condescending to anyone, even to an fool like “Avi”, but he called me a “liar” several times over the past few months, because once, when replying to another bigot who mischaracterized and portrayed me as someone who believed that all Arabs hate Jews, I had the cheeky
hutzpa for saying that I could never think such a thing of all Arabs, because as someone who has had Arab neighbors, schoolmates and friends would never characterize an entire ethnic group that way. For daring to say that I would never think that all Arabs are an inherently a Jewhating bunch based on my privilege to have known many who are not, every time this twerp sees a comment of mine, he sneers at me and calls me a liar. What fucking arrogance on his part.
I’ve always thought that all dancing, of any sort, is inherently boring. Dabka, hora, disco, ballet, waltz–you name it–boring, boring, boring. I don’t like doing it and I don’t like watching others do it–except for pole dancing, maybe. I endured and even did some pro forma dancing at two of my own weddings, but my next wedding–I swear there will be no reception! As for the food, I like all kinds of food.
I sincerely do hope that the Arab-speakers who have recently assumed the political identity of “Palestinian” will continue to exist in our shared homeland–either or both in an independent state adjoining the Jewish state of Israel, the ancestral land of the Jewish people (see, I can use bold HTML tags too!) or as loyal citizens or permanent residents of Israel. I look forward to the day when Arabs internalize that Israel is also the homeland of the Jewish people, and that Israeli Jews will also continue to exist in their ancestral land.
Maybe you should direct that at people like “Chaos4700″ or “Avi” who have repeatedly invoked skin color with frequent irelevant references to “white Israelis” and “pasty-white”Ashkenazi Zionists, on this and other threads. Why is it ok for them to drop those allegations, but “racially tinged propaganda” when somebody calls them on their bullshit?
Well said, Mikhael.
“Israel is also the homeland of the Jewish people,”
What do you mean by “the homeland of the Jewish people”?
Australia is the homeland of Australian Jews, just as it is the homeland of other Australians. Britain is the homeland of British Jews, just as it is the homeland of other Brits. And so on for Jews in other countries.
So since all these Jews have lots of different homelands, how can Israel be the homeland of them all?
“and that Israeli Jews will also continue to exist in their ancestral land.”
Certainly some Israeli Jews have Israeli ancestors, but many of them have ancestors from other countries. For them, Israel is not their ancestral land. Are you not concerned about them?
>> I sincerely do hope that the Arab-speakers who have recently assumed the political identity of “Palestinian” will continue to exist in our shared homeland–either or both in an independent state adjoining the Jewish state of Israel … or as loyal citizens or permanent residents of Israel.
It seems a damned shame that Hebrew-speaking (and non-Hebrew-speaking) foreigners who assumed the political identity of “Israeli”, rather than migrating to and existing as loyal citizens or permanent residents of a (post-Mandate) Palestinian state with the existing residents of that region, opted instead to:
- establish a supremacist “Jewish state”;
- undertake “necessary” ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes and land; and
- engage in an ON-GOING campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.
Oh this is just stupid. How many Arabs live in your neighborhood, jon? Hell, how many live in Sderot altogether?
“but I haven’t seen as many highlight that the perversion of language like Witty’s is symptomatic of zionism.
“
James North seems to be holding down that job, and doing quite well at it.
“Citizen, like I said, peace is the responsibility of both sides.”
Yeah, remember all those years Palestinians used to sweep through Europe and America killing Jews?
I mean the piece of real estate where the majority of world’s Jews ultimately trace their ancestry to and collectively originate as a national unit (although in the traditional Orthodox Jewish religious formulation–Jewish national identity is formed at Sinai)–that piece of real estate conforms more or less to historic Eretz Yisrael lying between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
I hope and expect for Jews who choose to live outside their ancestral homeland and live abroad that they participate in the national life of the countries in which they make their homes as loyal citizens, and that nothing is done to diminish their rights in those countries.. Australia and Britain are also home to Greco-Australians and Greco-Britons who have citizenship in Australia and the UK as well. If ethnic Greeks choose to live in Australia or the UK, they have a duty to be loyal citizens of the UK and Australia; those countries have an obligation to treat them well–but that does not and should not diminish their attachment to their ancestral homeland of Greece–and many of them hold Greek citizenship. The same, obviously, goes for Jews living outside their ancient national homeland of Israel.
Aside from very recent individual converts to Judaism–nearly every Jewish community worldwide has a demonstrable historical and ancestral link to the Land of Israel.
Most Jews outside of Israel will assimilate into the surrounding population and lose their Jewish ethnic/cultural/national identity or self-ghettoize in insular Orthodox communities like NYC’s Boro Park or London’s Stamford Hill. I wish them all good luck.
Although I’m too young to remember the Munich massacre, I actually do vividly remember the grenade and machine-gun attack on a kosher restaurant in Paris in summer 1982 that was committed by Palestinian Arab terrorists–it occurred just a day or so after my family ate at that restaurant when we were visiting friends in France. I also seem to remember hearing on the news about another Palestinian grenade attack on Jewish schoolchildren in Antwerp back in the 1980s–and everyone knows about the Mufti’s collaboration with Hitler and recruitment of a Yugoslav Muslim SS division; so yeah, Palestinian Arabs do have a history of committing violence against Jews in Europe. Why are you bringing it up, Mooser?
I think it’s a shame that the Arab residents of Mandate Palestine rejected the opportunity to have a sovereign state of their own six decades ago. As someone who is descended from an “Old Yishuv” family that has continuously resided in the region for a long time, my father’s maternal line goes back in Jerusalem for at least the entirety of the Ottoman period (and probably before); I can tell you that the Mufti’s followers would have expelled all the Jews–no matter how long their families had lived in Eretz Yisrael.
A “Jewish” nation-state will not be necessary when every other nation-state gives up its national identity–talking about ethnic supremacist chauvinism, the first article of the Palestinian National Charter states that:
“Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.”
(Emphasis mine.)
I am very proud to be a citizen of a Jewish state that accords democratic, participatory rights to its non-Jewish citizens.
Hey, talking about ethnic cleansing, all of the former British Mandate that fell to the Jordanian Arab Legion in 1948-49 was completely and totally ethnically cleansed of its Jews–including the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem’s Old City, where my grandmother was born and where several of my father’s uncles, aunts and cousins were living; all Jews were kicked out and their properties plundered by their neighbors in the Old City (people who a few decades hence would start styling themselves as members of the “Palestinian People”)–what was Jordan’s excuse for expelling all of the Jews in 1948? At least a few hundred thousand Arabs stayed in Israel. Why should we feel sorry for not losing a war?
Nobody really cares about a Russian immigrant’s views on whether the Palestinians deserve a state.
I think it’s a shame that the Arab residents of Mandate Palestine rejected the opportunity to have a sovereign state of their own six decades ago.
I’m really sorry you had such a poor education on the history of Palestine. You are repeating a common Zionist mythical trope that no Arab State was established in Palestine six decades ago. But that is historically inaccurate. Jordan was that Arab State and it included the Central Districts of Arab Palestine. Israel signed an armistice agreement with “Jordan” which formally preserved the claims of both of the parties. The Jordanian-Israeli peace treaty contained a safeguarding clause that preserved the status of all the territory that came under Israeli military control in 1967.
The Arab residents of the Mandate included the inhabitants of two states, Transjordan and Palestine. In 1946 Transjordan applied for membership in the United Nations, but the Security Council voted against its admission. The President of the Council explained that Transjordan was part of a joint mandate and that the legal procedures for terminating the mandate had not been followed. He stated the intention of his country and that of the United States to delay consideration until the United Nations had addressed the status of Palestine as a whole. See the Minutes of the 57th Session of the Security Council, S/PV.57 pages 100-101 (pdf file pgs 3-4 of 52)
After the mandate was terminated the people of Palestine held a Congress at Jericho and:
*Declared the Emir Abdullah the King of Arab Palestine;
*Publicly called for the establishment of a political union with Transjordan in a “joint kingdom”;
*Subsequently conducted a plebiscite in which 70 percent of the population ratified the union and selected their own representatives to serve in the Parliament of the new State, Jordan.
Under the Westphalian State system, the principle of “sovereignty” is never abstracted in cases involving a “King”. Abdullah did not prevent the establishment of an Arab State in Palestine, he was actually the King of one of the two States when he was declared the King of the other one.
You can read all about that in the Palestine Post, December 14, 1948 under the headline “Jericho Declaration”. The is another article on the same page under the headline “Hebron Mayor Challenges Egyptians to Tell Truth” which explains that the Arab League did not represent the people of Palestine and that they intended to save what was left of their country by peaceful means.
If you’re addressing me, pimplebrain, I’ve never been to Russia and none of my ancestors are from there either, not only that, but I’ve never had to “immigrate” to any country– but I’m a citizen from birth of two countries. I’d like to go visit Russia though–maybe I’ll be able to afford a vacation to see the Hermitage one day. But you should learn to speak for yourself. I don’t presume to say “Nobody cares what a dolt like you from the US cares about the Middle East,” as obviously there are people stupid enough to care about what you think.
Let me guess — Israel and the United States. And I’m guessing you were born in the US and were extended Israeli citizenship by default, right? Unless your mom is Chell from the Portal games or something, I’m a little unclear on how you were born at the same time in two countries otherwise.
Seriously. Are there any Israelis who don’t hold two passports here?
How did you become a citizen of of 2 countries without immigrating?
And next time someone provides you with a free education, the polite thing to do is say thank you.
Which he did AFTER he was exiled from Palestine in 1937, to which he never returned.
Did you also headd of Hitelrs 150,000 Jewish troops and the 53 documents linting the Stern gang to the Nazis?
While Judaism can be traced back to palestine, the majority of world’s Jews have no ancestrial link to the place.
Judaism might have a religious link to Palestine, but it just so happens there’s no evidence to supoprt your Biblical claim.
How do you feel about him being treated as a second class citizen in an apartheid system that privelages you? How do you feel about denying his fellow Palestinians the right to return to their homes and being ethnically cleansed, and having their homes demolished?
“I mean the piece of real estate where the majority of world’s Jews ultimately trace their ancestry to and collectively originate as a national unit “
But what has that got to do with modern Jews?
(Even assuming that this ancestral tracing can be done, and there is some sense in the term “national unit” as applied to modern Jews.)
“I hope and expect for Jews who choose to live outside their ancestral homeland and live abroad that they participate in the national life of the countries in which they make their homes as loyal citizens, and that nothing is done to diminish their rights in those countries.”
Are you saying that Australia is the homeland of some Australians but not Australian Jews? That looks like some sort of anti-Semitism to me. It seems to suggest that Australian Jews are not “real Australians”.
“they have a duty to be loyal citizens –but that does not and should not diminish their attachment to their ancestral homeland “
On the contrary. The country in which they have been born, in which they grew up, and were educated, and in which they have made their lives is the country which supported them. They have a very strong reciprocal obligation to support that country, and no obligation to care at all about the country of their ancestors.
“nearly every Jewish community worldwide has a demonstrable historical and ancestral link to the Land of Israel.”
I would like to see the demonstration. Where are the genealogies?
I was thinking the same about Mikhael’s characterication of himself, Chaos. We await Mikhael’s response; perhaps he will tell us if he served in either the US military or the IDF too?
Mikhael, if the two countries you are a citizen of from birth fought a war against each other, which one would you fight for? I recall that the many members of the German Bund in the USA were totally against a second war with Germany, but when a war was declared, they rushed to join the US military. Americans of German descent remain the largest ethnic group in the USA even today.
>> I think it’s a shame that the Arab residents of Mandate Palestine rejected the opportunity to have a sovereign state of their own six decades ago.
So, because the Arab residents of Mandate Palestine rejected a foreign-devised plan to partition the land in which they resided, they deserved to be cleansed from their homes and properties so that these foreigners could divvy up that land and create a “Jewish state” for (predominantly) foreigners of the Jewish faith. Interesting.
>> A “Jewish” nation-state will not be necessary when every other nation-state gives up its national identity …
Jewish is not a national identity. I can become American, French or German simply by emigrating to one of those countries. I cannot become Jewish simply by emigrating to Israel.
>> –talking about ethnic supremacist chauvinism, the first article of the Palestinian National Charter states that:
>> “Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.”
Palestine should be the nation of the Palestinians, Arab or otherwise. Israel should be the nation of Israelis, Jewish or otherwise. Both countries should be secular, democratic and egalitarian.
>> I am very proud to be a citizen of a Jewish state that accords democratic, participatory rights to its non-Jewish citizens.
Window dressing. It remains a supremacist state, not an egalitarian state.
>> Hey, talking about ethnic cleansing, all of the former British Mandate that fell to the Jordanian Arab Legion in 1948-49 was completely and totally ethnically cleansed of its Jews …
If I were a Zio-supremacist speaking of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, I would refer to it as “necessary” and a “required” evil. But I’m not immoral, so I cannot say such things about the ethnic cleansing of Jews. It is a wrong that cannot be excused and which must be rectified. People must be held to account. Justice must be done. Can you say the same for the ethnically-cleansed Palestinians?
FWIW, this is some of what I think should be done to resolve the I/P issue.
>> –talking about ethnic supremacist chauvinism, the first article of the Palestinian National Charter states that:
>> “Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.”
FYI, that is a completely tendentious reading of the Palestinian National Charter. Article 6 states that: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion are considered Palestinians.
Dr. Arthur Ruppin noted in his 1908 address to the Zionist Colonization Society that the Sephardic Jews who had lived in Palestine for centuries spoke Arabic and were assimilated, in mores and in the general mode of life, to the local Arabs. The High Court of Israel has ruled that there is no Israeli nationality separate from the Jewish people. So, the real “Israeli Arabs” are the Mizrahi Jews of Palestine. They were always considered an integral part of “the Arab Palestinian people”. Here for example are the references to indigenous Jews in the Preamble and Article 7 of the Memorandum of the General Syrian Congress, July 2, 1919:
We the undersigned members of the General Syrian Congress, meeting in Damascus on Wednesday, July 2nd. 1919, made up of representatives from the three Zones viz . The Southern, Eastern, and Western provided with credentials and authorizations by the inhabitants of our various districts. Moslems, Christians, and Jews have agreed upon the following statement of the desires of the peopie of the country who have elected us. We ask absolutely complete political independence for Syria. … …7. We opposed the pretensions of the Zionists to create a Jewish commonwealth in the southern part of Syria, known as Palestine and oppose Zionist migration to any part of our country for we do not acknowledge their title but consider them a grave peril to our people from the national, economical, and political points of view. Our Jewish compatriots shall enjoy our common rights and assume our common responsibilities.
Maybe I was extended US citizenship by default. An Israeli citizen born abroad to an Israeli citizen parent or parents remains an Israeli citizen–just like the Detroit-born Palestinian-American ISM activist, Huweida Arraf, who has Israeli citizenship from her father, a Christian Arab from Galilee. (I don’t believe her American-Jewish husband, Adam Shapiro, ever acquired Israeli citizenship, despite being eligible for it both as the husband of an Israeli citizen and as a Jew under the Law of Return.)
Seriously, who cares? (Although I confess your curiosity about my national origins is somewhat flattering.)
In my case, I was born in the US to Israeli citizen parents (who were at the time technically not immigrants, but pursuing post-doctoral education and fellowships). Therefore, I am a citizen of two countries from birth by default. But a lot of people are citizens of more than one country without being an “immigrant”–for example, if you are born in the USA to a Canadian citizen mother and a British father, you can have three citizenships at birth without being an immigrant.
I’m very grateful to my parents for having paid tuition to various private Jewish day schools and helping me with some of university tuition (at 41, most of my loans are finally paid off), as well as for being responsible tax-paying legal residents of the US in high tax brackets (green card holders pay taxes) who subsidized the local school districts in the various places in the US where we lived, despite the fact that for most of my childhood and adolescence I didn’t attend public school there. Thank you, Abba and Imma!
To “Palestine,” no– but yes, the majority of the world’s Jews do indeed have a definitive ancestral connection to Eretz Yisrael. Genetic testing has confirmed that most of the world’s Jews, whether belonging to Ashkenazi, Sepharadi or Mizrahi communities–have a common ancestral lineage originating in the Middle East. Excluding very recent individual converts to Judaism, practically every Diaspora Jewish community evidences common ancestry to a founder population originating from Eretz Yisrael, which usually subsequently mixed with the host population of the country they lived in to a certain degree. Among the largest non-Jewish population groups sharing these same genetic markers are the Arabic-speakers who have recently started to style themselves as “Palestinian”, clearly evidencing a common origin in the same geographic area for both groups.
Of course I served in the IDF, I think I already stated that somewhere else. I had a duty to do so under Israeli law, as an able-bodied Israeli citizen living in Israel at the time I did my mandatory military service. I never had any obligation to serve in the all-volunteer US military, as the draft ended when I was three years old or so. Of course, I registered for US Selective Service when I was 18, and I’ve complied with my other civic duties as a US citizen and paid taxes in the US (in fact, according to US law, I was required to file US tax returns even when I was living and working in Israel) and I’ve done jury duty several times.
It’s a counterfactual, hypothetical question, but if I were convinced that one of the countries was absolutely in the wrong, and the other absolutely in the right I would choose the country I felt was right.
It seems like you’re just endorsing the hard-line Herut argument that “Jordan is Palestine”, but it’s interesting reading.
You are referring to what is correctly called the Old Yishuv of Eretz Yisrael , and many Jewish Israeli citizens (such as yours truly) have family with roots in the Old Yishuv, which, by the way, also included large numbers of Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazi Haredim (from the 1600s onwards) as well as Mizrahim and Sepharadim.
That’s great, but I’m pretty sure very few Jews would be willing to accept the dubious “honor” of being considered members of a nation that can’t be proven to have ever existed. As someone partially descended from a formerly Arabic-speaking family (the last grand-uncle that spoke it with perfect, native fluency died in 2002), I can tell you that my Mizrahi Jewish family members never, ever, considered themselves as belonging to any “Palestinian” People. My father had British Mandate Palestinian citizenship, and even his birth certificate states that he was born in “Palestine,” but his parents’ birth certificates show their place of birth as the Ottoman Empire even though they were native Jerusalemites as well.
For the most part, Arabic-speaking Jews in the former Ottoman Empire were more likely to be drawn to Zionism than the Arab nationalist movements and not many attempts were made to include them in it. Our family was very happy as more and more Jews came to Eretz Yisrael from abroad to help build up our country throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. How could we see our kin returning home from afar to rejoin us in our common homeland as an “invasion”?
It is not counterfactual but historical.
Had you been a pilot or a sailor on a torpedo boat in 1967, would you have fired on the USS Liberty or refused the orders – bearing in mind that like your service with the IDF, you were obliged to follow orders under Israeli law.
Mikhael,
Eretz Yisrael is a mythical concept that never existed.
I can tell you that my Mizrahi Jewish family members never, ever, considered themselves as belonging to any “Palestinian” People.
So your father was indeed a Palestinian, though you are loathed to admit it. As for belonging to any “Palestinian” people, thet “people” eupahmism was a European concept, so it’s true it never existed as such in the Middel East.
There was no such thing as a Jerusalemite passport.
You’re being blatantly dihonest. The Arab nationalist movement was mobilized in response to a colonialist settler movement (that claimed to represent the Jewish population) while openly threatening to disenfranchise the indigenous population. You cannot claim reasonably argue that the local Jewish population, who were largly non Zionist and opposed to the idea of a Jewish satte to begin with, were faced with a choice. Zionism was hostile to the Palestinians (indeed Zionism was founded on the premise of Goyim being hostile), so it proked a hostile response that was never going to be perceived as inclusive by Jews.
What do you mean by “common homeland”? Did that include the indigenous population or were your family among the minority who had already embraced the Zionist ethnocentric, supremacist movement?
The Arabs (quite a few of whom were also born outside of the the then British Mandate or descendants of recent immigrants into the country) could have chosen to have continued living in the part of Mandatory Palestine to become a Jewish state as loyal citizens and/or permanent residents or accepted the creation of an Arab state in Mandatory Palestine, and let the Jewish inhabitants stay there.
Jewish is most certainly a national identity. I do not believe in or follow most of the precepts of Judaism, yet I remain a Jew by nationality. One can be a citizen of the Federal Republic of Germany today without being an ethnic German–but few regard the ethnic Turks, Vietnamese, Albanians and others who have acquired German citizenship as truly and authentically German. Countries like the USA, Canada, and Australia are different from other democratic nation-states such as Germany, Greece, Japan or Republic of South Korea, in that the former examples shared nationality is attached to a notion of a shared common civic heritage (i.e., the US Constitution) and the latter examples shared nationality rests upon a notion of shared ethnic/ancestral heritage. Foreigners can acquire citizenship in Germany, Greece, Japan, or Korea by various routes–but they and their descendants are usually not considered to be ethnic Greeks, Germans, Japanese or Koreans. Israel resembles the second category of democratic nation-states.
According to the ostensibly secularist vision of the PLO, as outlined in the Palestinian National Charter, “Palestine” would be first and foremost an Arab state, which would of necessity exclude me and any other Jew who has no desire to see himself as an Arab (despite the current humorous tendency of some on the misnamed “progressive” spectrum to categorize Jews with Mizrahi roots such as myself as “Arab” Jews). Zionism’s detractors constantly make the argument that an Arab citizen of Israel can never be an equal citizen as long as Israel continues to define itself as a “Jewish” state, so why are they so eager to force non-Arabs into living in a state that exclusively defines itself as “Arab”?
Israel has had non-Jewish High Court justices, cabinet members, and brigadier generals drawn from its Arabic-speaking minorities. How many non-ethnic Greeks or Swedes serve in such high positions in those countries, respectively? Looking at the wikipedia article on the cabinet of Greece, I see that every single name looks Greek–even though Greece has large communities of Albanians, Roma and Slavic speakers–is Greece a Hellenic supremacist state?
It can be a state of the Jewish nation and all of its non-Jewish citizens without any contradiction–just as the Hellenic Republic (aka Greece) can be a statefor all ethnic Greeks (it extends citizenship to members of the Greek Diaspora, including Pontic Greeks whose ancestors lived on the shores of the Black Sea in what’s now Ukraine for thousands of years) and it can be a state for all Greek citizens of non-Greek ethnicity, whether members of traditional ethnic minorities or recent immigrants.
Despite the influence of and imposition into of religious political parties and factions into many aspects of public and private life, Israel still largely remains a secular country in its character. Yes, there are is no such thing yet as civil marriage or divorce (I believe Ireland was in the same boat a few decades ago) but Israelis are still free to be as religious or non-religious as they want. I doubt the same degree of religious freedom would exist in a Hamas-run state.
Justice was done when Israel captured the Old City in 1967, but my family’s ancestral home in the Jewish Quarter was actually nationalized with most of the other properties there.
If and when there is a peace agreement, Arabs who lost properties and assets in what became Israel should be entitled to present their claims for compensation and they should be compensated if those claims prove to valid, just as my ex-wife’s family should be entitled to be compensated for the assets they were forced to abandon in Iraq in the 1950s. But, no, they don’t have a right to “return” en masse to Israel.
Considering that the Israeli pilots who took those orders didn’t realize they were firing at an American ship until it was too late, it’s not a very relevant example. Shit happens in wartime. Israeli pilots also bombed their own tanks in 1967. The USS Liberty incident was not that different from the US attack on Canadian forces in Afghanistan in 2002. Get over it.
There is no evidence of such a connetion, seeing as there is little or no evidence that Eretz Yisrael ever existed.
Genetic testing by Israel’s Weizmann Institute has found that Mizrahi Jews have genetic ties to the Palestinians, whereas Ashkenazi Jews have no genetic ties to either group. That is to say that Israel was founded by a group of Europeans who converted to Judaism, but have no genetic lineage to the indigenous people of the region.
This has been largely refuted by Shlomo Zand, who pointed to the absurdity of the commonly held beliefs of how Eastern European Jews came into existence – the majority of which were created through evangelism, not lineage
No more recently than self styled Israelis.
It’s a term that was in common use by Jews for thousands of years to refer to a certain geographical area (long before Arabs adopted a European-invented name for roughly the same area) , and “Yisrael” and “Yehuda” were both the names of Jewish states, definite geopolitical entities that existed in more or less that same territory in the past.
Because there was a British Mandatory government that existed from 1917-1948 that imposed that name on the country–all lawful residents of the country had “Palestinian” citizenship within that time period, whether they were born in the Mandate or not–even if they did not go back multiple generations as my father’s family did. My mother’s family managed to leave Europe in 1935, she was a “Palestinian” too for 13 years.
There’s also no such thing as a Martian passport, but just like a Jerusalemite passport, I never mentioned one either. There were, however, Ottoman birth registration certificates–and it’s been a while since I’ve seen them, but my late grandparents, who were both native Jerusalemites born at the turn of the 20th century, have no mention of nationality or place of birth as “Palestinian” or “Palestine” on their Ottoman documentation from that era
Finally, a breakthrough! Now, it’s not my place to object to the existence of a genuine Palestinian national identity today, it clearly has come into existence, and I appreciate their longing for self-determination in their own state, but it’s just a total anachronism when people talk of “Palestinians” as if they constituted some national unit in the past.
Arab nationalism had its first modern stirrings even prior to the emergence of modern political Zionism as a viable force and it at first was not concerned much with Palestine, but with casting away Ottoman rule throughout the Arab-populated parts of the Empire. It largely excluded Jews from the very beginning, so it’s disingenuous to quote the Memorandum of General Syrian Congress, as “Hostage” did, to imply that the local Jews saw themselves as part of any “Palestinian” nation. It’s as if I would invoke the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement to claim that there’s no inherent conflict between Zionism and Arab nationalism.
Actually, the elements of the local Jewish population in the Old Yishuv who were strongly hostile to modern political Zionism were mostlyAshkenazi haredi pietists. Most Sepharadi and Mizrahi Jews were quick to join the Zionist camp.
A premise grounded in reality, and operative in Eretz Yisrael even during the Ottoman years, before the emergence of modern political Zionism–Jews were massacred in Tsefat and Hebron in the 1830s, 50 years prior to the arrival of the First Aliyah from Europe.
Sure, I can appreciate that Arabs living in Eretz Yisrael have an attachment to the same land and regard it as their homeland, too. I can even appreciate that a Filipino child of migrant workers born and raised in Tel Aviv sees Israel as his homeland. But be aware that the Arab nationalism of the time didn’t only claim “Falastin” for the “indigenous people” (who were small in number) but for all Arabs everywhere–from Morocco to the Gulf
My family never supported any supremacist movement, but has always espoused equal rights and equal obligations for all citizens. We definitely rejected the Arab ethnocentricism and Islamist fervor prevalent among the Arab opponents of Zionism, for obvious reasons. However, we were also among the majority of Mizrahi/Sepharadi Jews in the Old Yishuv of Eretz Yisrael who joined the movement for Jewish national revival and self-determination of the Jewish people in its ancestral land, aka modern political Zionism.
Sorry, no such study has come out of Weizmann. I challenge you to show that research. Actually, all the recent population genetics studies indicate pretty much the opposite, that Ashkenazi Jews unambiguously share a genetic profile and cluster quite closely with Mizrahi and Sepharadi Jews, and all three main Jewish population groups share similarities to Arabs, including the ones who have recently adopted the political identity of “Palestinians”. Of course, Ashkenazi Jews also have descent from the Europeans amongst whom they lived for a millennium or so, it’s hard to imagine that there would be no mixing after a thousand years.
A guy who was way out of his depth. His area of specialization is 19th century European intellectual history and cinema studies, and he had little background in Jewish history, but he was strongly influenced by his Marxist biases to claim that there historically was never a Jewish nation. Not only that, but there was nothing particularly original in his research. Clever marketing, a provocative title and cover design made his book a bestseller in Israel and made him a mint (maybe he’s a capitalist after all), because his real area of specialty would put people to sleep. He did one good thing in his life and that was participate in the battle for Jerusalem in 1967.
Considering that no one believes that BS, considering that those Israeli pilots were conducting fly bys of the shop for 6 hours prior to attacking, you might want to come up with a better excuse.
Shit happens in wartime. Israeli pilots also bombed their own tanks in 1967.
They didn’t have 6 hours to think about it at on those occasions.
On the contrary. None of the eye witnesses from the US attack on Canadian forces were threatened with court martial if they spoke about it, let alone denied the right to testify.
Try harder.
False on all counts. Ben Gurion made it absently clear that a 60% Jewish majority would’ve unacceptable.
Secondly, less than 10% of the Palestinian population was attributed to immigration.
That would mean that Judaism did not exist before 1948 seeing as the Turks, Vietnamese, Albanians and Germans base their natoinal identity on the existence on a nation state with physical borders.
Most Jews in Israel are not ethnic Israelis either.
You know that’s a lie. Abbas has said that Jews would be allowed to live in that state so long as they agreed to become citizens. And FYI. Zionism’s detractors are not forcing non-Arabs into living in a state that exclusively defines itself as “Arab”.
Greece does not insist on being recognied as a state for all ethnic Greeks, but citizens of Greece.
Not while the state defines itse;f according to one religion and is becomming increasingly extremist in terms of the iflunece of religiuos parties.
That wasn;t justice, that was military conquest. And while your family’s ancestral home in the Jewish Quarter was nationalized, the ancestral homes of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians was stolen.
Forced to abandon in Iraq why? Beause Zionist terro groups set off bombs in Baghdad against Jewish targets, with the aim of inciting Jews in Iraq to flee? Shouldn’t Israel then be paying that compensation?
Actually they do legally. Don’t conflate what you don’t want with your disdain for humn rights.
over @ dkos i heard someone say bringing up the liberty was a staple for anti semites. no one w/a brain could possibly concieve it was a mere ‘mistake’. mistakes do not last for hrs and hrs. it’s just the staple reply to all things liberty to play act we’re ct. hey. sometimes ct’s happen and the liberty was absolutely a conspiracy. for what i am not definitive..the golan probably but it was planned and it worked. now they just want to bury it. NOT. GOING. TO. HAPPEN.
That’s great, but I’m pretty sure very few Jews would be willing to accept the dubious “honor” of being considered members of a nation that can’t be proven to have ever existed.
I was responding to a ignorant bigot who accused Arabs of “ethnic supremacist chauvinism”. As for the claim that the Palestinian nation can’t be proven to have ever existed, this is not very difficult. The United States was a signatory of the Treaty of Lausanne and the Anglo-American Palestine Mandate Convention. It did, and still does, recognize Palestinian nationality as a matter of inter-temporal law. See for example Kletter v. Dulles (1950). For decades, the US had immigration quotas for Palestinians. So, Palestinian national origin is still a federally protected characteristic today under US Civil Rights Act and Title 29 of the Code of Federal Regulations. For example, on September 30, 2002, the EEOC filed a trio of backlash employment discrimination suits, including one that involved national origin discrimination against an American citizen of Palestinian descent.
the Old Yishuv, which, by the way, also included large numbers of Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazi Haredim… …How could we see our kin returning home from afar to rejoin us in our common homeland as an “invasion”?
In the 19th century the Ashkenazim and Mizrahi communities (edahs) were autonomous and separate. Obviously, a Yiddish speaking Ashkenazi would not have been considered an Israeli Arab. The majority of the indigenous Jews were not Zionists. They had no desire to turnover leadership of the Yishuv or management of their community assets and charitable donations from abroad to a bunch of foreign secular socialist colonists. That situation led to violent conflicts. See for example the assaination of Jacob Israël de Haan In many cases Zionist immigration resulted in the dispossession and eviction of the indigenous Jewish population. For example, Elkan Nathan Adler, authored Jews in many lands (1905), which was printed by the Jewish Publication Society of America. He didn’t grasp the tradition of inalienable religious endowments (e.g. waqfs) and considered property owned by the Relief fund as a private estate. He stated in the foreword that his
BTW, the new leaders of the Yishuv put on a number of flagrant displays of “ethnic supremacist chauvinism”. Jabotinsky wrote:
Ben Gurion’s biographer wrote that Ahdut Ha’avodah (Unity of Labor) was established in 1919 as a successor to Poalei Zion. Its founding Charter called for a Jewish Socialist Republic in all of Palestine, and demanded “the transfer of Palestine’s land, water, and natural resources to the people of Israel as their eternal possession.” See Ben Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs, Shabtai Teveth, page 99.
It seems like you’re just endorsing the hard-line Herut argument that “Jordan is Palestine”,
I said that “Jordan” was created as a result of a political union between the central districts of Arab Palestine and Transjordan. So, the West Bank was indeed Jordanian territory for a while. There used to be a political union between Egypt and Syria, but that doesn’t mean that “the Sinai is southern Syria”. I could cite examples in which other joint kingdoms were dissolved (e.g. Austria and Hungary), but even that might not help our Herut brethren. Ignorance means you don’t know yet, stupidity means you never will. The Herut party suffers from an over abundance of the latter.
An Israeli citizen born abroad to an Israeli citizen parent or parents remains an Israeli citizen .. an Israeli citizen and as a Jew under the Law of Return.) … …Seriously, who cares?
The Palestinian refugees have patiently explained that principle and the fact that it applies to their own children (and to every other refugee who has children born abroad). See for example the YNet article Don’t blame UNRWA
Shit happens in wartime. Israeli pilots also bombed their own tanks in 1967. The USS Liberty incident was not that different from the US attack on Canadian forces in Afghanistan in 2002. Get over it.
It was supremely ironic that in the USS Liberty incident a neutral ship was attacked in international waters by a country that supposedly went to war to defend the sanctity of the rights of freedom of navigation and innocent passage through international waters.
Both the US and Canadian governments investigated the two pilots involved in the Afghan incident and submitted their reports to a nine-day long preliminary court martial proceeding. It was convened to determine if the evidence warranted prosecutions. Both pilots were grounded, charged with involuntary manslaughter, received non-judicial punishments, and were eventually forced out of the service. The questionable US practice of administering pep pills to flight crews was fully disclosed and the families were compensated. See U.S. Combat Pilots on Speed and Charges Are Dropped in Bombing of Allies and a two page list of related NYTimes articles.
it’s disingenuous to quote the Memorandum of General Syrian Congress, as “Hostage” did, to imply that the local Jews saw themselves as part of any “Palestinian” nation. It’s as if I would invoke the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement to claim that there’s no inherent conflict between Zionism and Arab nationalism.
Correction: I cited the Memorandum because one of your fellow travelers in the Zionist talkback community libeled the Palestinians as practitioners of ethnic supremacist chauvinism on the grounds of their national charter. This despite the fact that it and the original memorandum stipulated that the Jews who inhabited the country before the Zionist invasion are considered Palestinians with equal rights and responsibilities. The source that I provided for the Memorandum of the General Syrian Congress confirms the fact that seats were reserved for the Jewish and Christian representatives who participated in the constituent assembly. FYI, Zionists discuss the guarantee of equality in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel all the time, but seldom point out that there were no Arab participants in the People’s Council and that the Supreme Court and Knesset subsequently reneged on the promise by claiming it isn’t legally binding.
Faisal signed the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement on behalf of the Kingdom of Hedjaz, not on behalf of “Arab Nationalism”. Weizmann signed it on behalf of an organization with no international legal personality or defined territory. So, the terms regarding the boundary commission and the delineation of the borders were ultimately unfulfilled, i.e. there is no “there” defined in the agreement.
At the Paris Peace Conference Lloyd George explained that the Sykes-Picot agreement had been concluded on the basis of the McMahon-Hussein correspondence. The “Memorandum Nº. 242 from Mr. Balfour (Paris) respecting Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia” of August 11, 1919 explained why Weizmann needed to secure an agreement on the boundary commission from King Hussein: “In our promises with regard to the frontiers of the new Arab States we do not seem to have been more fortunate than in our promises about their independence. In 1915 it was the Sherif of Mecca to whom the task of delimitation was to have been confided, nor were any restrictions placed upon his discretion in this matter” See EL Woodward and Rohan Butler, Documents on British Foreign Policy, 1919-1939, London: HM Stationery Office, 1952, pages 340-348.
The Sykes-Picot agreement and the British Mandate both required the consent of the Sharif of Mecca/Allied Powers in laying down the boundaries of the mandate. But King Hussein’s consent was never obtained:” Negotiations have been in progress for about a year for the conclusion of a treaty with King Hussein of the Hejaz, who is the person to whom the McMahon promises of 1915 (see paragraph 5 of the office memorandum) were given. A draft of the treaty was actually initialled in London in April 1923, but difficulties have since arisen, particularly in regard to Article 2 of the draft, which deals with our position in the Mandated States of Iraq, Palestine and Trans-Jordan. The point is simply this. The late Government hoped to obtain King Hussein’s assent to a formula which would imply his acceptance of the policy pursued by the British Government in the Mandated territories. This would have been an effective answer to those of our critics who assert that the “Zionist ” policy in Palestine is a contravention of the promise given to King Hussein in 1915. It is now fairly clear that this object is not likely to be achieved.”– See UK National Archives Catalogue Reference: CAB/24/165 Image Reference:0021 Former Reference CP . 121 (24).
In any event, the mandate era administration and the Zionist Organization acquiesced to the doctrine of the JNF of redeeming the land through the exclusive use of Hebrew labor. That violated the safeguarding clauses in the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement regarding the rights of Arab cultivators. Those are just a few of the insurmountable difficulties attached to the agreement.
So, I get it, Mikhael, if the US was 99% absolutely right, and Israel was 1% right, all things considered, you’d fight for Israel. There is no “absolutely” in real life, except at the Opera.
Since all Americans have an ancestral connection to Africa, we have a right to colonize it according to your way of thinking, Mikhael, and so do the people of the EU. So, you were against the dismantling of the apartheid state of S Africa, I assume.
Shingo, he would have bulldozed Rachel Corrie. In both cases he’d claim it was an accident, even though in both cases evidence to date clearly shows both incidents amounted to, at minimal, criminal negligence, and in both cases, no Israeli was ever penalized for their criminal negligence, nor for murder.
Mikhael, you need to update yourself on the aggregate of evidence regarding the USS Liberty incident, including the relatively recent declassification of documents; the consensus is that the Israelis were at least minimally, criminally negligent if not murderers. Read the latest book. BTW, no Israeli has ever been punished for their criminal negligence.
Mikhael:
RE: “Jewish is most certainly a national identity. I do not believe in or follow most of the precepts of Judaism, yet I remain a Jew by nationality. One can be a citizen of the Federal Republic of Germany today without being an ethnic German–but few regard the ethnic Turks, Vietnamese, Albanians and others who have acquired German citizenship as truly and authentically German. Countries like the USA, Canada, and Australia are different from other democratic nation-states such as Germany, Greece, Japan or Republic of South Korea, in that the former examples shared nationality is attached to a notion of a shared common civic heritage (i.e., the US Constitution) and the latter examples shared nationality rests upon a notion of shared ethnic/ancestral heritage. Foreigners can acquire citizenship in Germany, Greece, Japan, or Korea by various routes–but they and their descendants are usually not considered to be ethnic Greeks, Germans, Japanese or Koreans. Israel resembles the second category of democratic nation-states.”
10% of German citizens are not of German blood. Contemporary Germany allows in-comers to take citizenship, though they have to choose between the country of their birth and Germany – no dual citizenship. People born in Germany are now automatically awarded citizenship. If one obtains dual citizenship by virtue of birth that one must choose between the ages of 18 and 23 which citizenship she or he wishes to retain, and renounce their other passport.If one parent is German, a dual citizen is not required to give up the German citizenship if they keep the other citizenship.
The Basic Law expressly provides for complete equal rights, including practice of religion, secular/civil marriage, etc.
Discrimination against minorities and their faiths are a persistent part of Greece, Japan, Korea.
You identify as a Jew because that’s your tribal affinity, your blood line and childhood culture. Countries like the USA, Canada, and Australia are different, as you say–because they do not encourage government rule via tribal privilege, that is, at the expense of fellow citizens of other tribal extraction.
RE: “Both countries should be secular, democratic and egalitarian.
Despite the influence of and imposition into of religious political parties and factions into many aspects of public and private life, Israel still largely remains a secular country in its character. Yes, there are is no such thing yet as civil marriage or divorce (I believe Ireland was in the same boat a few decades ago) but Israelis are still free to be as religious or non-religious as they want. I doubt the same degree of religious freedom would exist in a Hamas-run state”
Ireland recognizes all forms of marriage, including civil and pagan marriages.
Israel recognizes civil, interfaith and same-sex marriages that happen abroad, but all other marriages in Israel have to be performed by the country’s Chief Rabbinate and Rabbinical courts—both which do not allow interfaith marriages, same-sex marriages or civil marriage. So how free are Israelis to be as religious or non-religious “as they want?” BTW, the Hamas charter included a passage confering full civil rights on Jews in any HAMAS state.
RE: “(indeed Zionism was founded on the premise of Goyim being hostile)
A premise grounded in reality, and operative in Eretz Yisrael even during the Ottoman years, before the emergence of modern political Zionism–Jews were massacred in Tsefat and Hebron in the 1830s, 50 years prior to the arrival of the First Aliyah from Europe.”
World history shows that in both the West and the ME under Muslim rule, Jews often were treated better than the native masses by the ruling class that were of the same ethnic/religious background as the natives. They were treated as a nation within a nation with many perks from that status, which is the status they always demanded to boot. Prior to 1948, one has to look back to biblical days to see how Jews treated non-jews when the Jews were in full power; it’s not a pretty sight for the goys. And neither is the current view of contemporary Israel. The test of virtue is power, not a cherry-picked history designed to glorify.
The same could be said for Atlantis ( which is said to reside somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean) but there is no evidence it ever existed either.
Correction, they are both names of mythical fiefdoms. There were no Jewish states prior to 1948.
The name Israel was also imposed. What’s your point?
How can you refer to Palestinian nationalism as an anachronism, and still cite Eretz Israel in the same breath?
In other words, you can’t refute Zand. The harshest criticism you can produce is that he lacked originality, which in fact implies that his thesis (which has not been refuted) is actually widely accepted.
Still basking in the after glow of mass murder and wanton destruction are we?
No, I was responding to a bigot who can’t see the obvious hypocrisy of denying the moral validity of Jewish aspirations for national self-determination in a Jewish state while simultaneously endorsing the validity of Arab national aspirations, “Palestinian” or otherwise.
It’s amazing that you cite a case which appears to deal with someone who was an Ashkenazi Jew (judging by the surname) and who was born an Ottoman citizen in what was then part of Ottoman Syria and acquired Palestinian citizenship under the British Mandate, as somehow proving that there was once a sovereign state called Palestine. How can you be so dishonest? “Palestinian citizenship” in this context is merely a term of art used to refer to legal residents of the former British colonial entity known as the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine–my Jewish parents and grandparents also held Palestinian citizenship during the Mandate era (my father’s parents were born in Ottoman Jerusalem and were legally classed as “Palestinians” from 1917-1948, my mother and her parents, Hungarian- and German-speaking Jews who were among the few Jews to receive legal immigration certificates in that period from the British were also legally deemed “Palestinians” until 1948 and the end of the British Mandate). Informed, reasonable people know that that existence of the British Mandate for 31 years was not quite the same as the existence of a “Palestinian” nation or state.
That’s an oversimplification. The majority of the Ashkenazi haredim in the Old Yishuv were theologically opposed to modern political Zionism and suspicious of most of its proponents’ secular outlooks. (When we speak of “Zionism,” however, a distinction must be made between “modern political Zionism,” the goal-oriented movement to establish a sovereign Jewish polity in the ancestral Jewish homeland which has proven to be so dramatically successful, and the simple Zionism that inheres in all forms of religious Judaism, to whit: that the Jews collectively constitute one people, that we have our roots in Eretz Yisrael, and that one day a Messianic promise will be fulfilled and the Jewish nation will be ingathered in Eretz Yisrael–even the Neturei Karta, the most recognizable, vituperative and shrillest Haredi critics of modern political Zionism and the existence of the State of Israel can be said to adhere to “Zionist” principles as such tenets happen to be embedded in Orthodox Judaism.) That said, the Mizrahi-Sepharadi eidoth in the Old Yishuv happened to be much more receptive to the Zionist message than the Ashkenazi haredim–this had much to do with the fact that the Sepharadim/Mizrahim in the Old Yishuv were more engaged in commerce and politics within Eretz Yisrael and were open to new ideas whereas the Ashkenazim of that time were more passively dependent on the halukka system (donations from pious Jews from abroad) for subsistence. In the 19th century/early 20th century, Sepharadi/Mizrahi Jews with roots in the Old Yishuv in Eretz Yisrael sent their children to the Alliance Israelite Universelle schools and later to Hebrew-language schools that were being established after the times of the 1st and 2nd aliyoth. By the time of the 1929 riots and massacres of Jews, most of the Jewish community, whether they had roots in the Old Yishuv or in subsequent immigration waves, was squarely behind Zionism and the idea of muscular Jewish self-defense. So many in the Arab community were inimical not just to “Zionists”, but to Jews–the attacks of the Mufti’s followers on apolitical non-Zionist religious Jews, Mizrahi, Sepharadi and Ashkenazi alike left little doubt of that.
Re: Your passage quoted from Jabotinsky -it was a wonderful clarion call to put an end to Diaspora Jewish passivity and helplessness. Why do you have such discomfiture at the notion of Jews not being submissive? Jabotinsky, by the way, was a firm believer in full Arab political participation in a Jewish state, and envisioned the possibility of an Arab head of government for said state and explicitly called for a power-sharing system between ethnic groups and confessions similar to what existed (and eventually broke down in) Lebanon.
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There was never a sovereign state geopolitical entity known as “Arab Palestine,” but Transjordan was carved out by the British from the original League of Nations Mandate for Palestine on the East Bank, and later came to occupy and annex some of the former British Mandate on the West Bank between 1949-1967, which was never de jure recognized by most of the international community.
When and if an independent Palestinian state is established, it can decide whom it wishes to grant citizenship to on the basis of ancestry or otherwise and whom it can admit under its “right of return” to within its own territory, but Israel has no obligation to admit or grant citizenship to putative “Palestinian” refugees or descendants of same any more than the Czech Republic or Poland has an obligation to readmit descendants of Sudeten or Silesian Germans who were expelled post-WW2.
>> The Arabs (quite a few of whom were also born outside of the the then British Mandate or descendants of recent immigrants into the country) could have chosen to have continued living in the part of Mandatory Palestine to become a Jewish state as loyal citizens and/or permanent residents …
Yeah, damned shame about that ethnic cleansing. Didn’t get ‘em all, though. And the ones who remain are second-class citizens.
>> … or accepted the creation of an Arab state in Mandatory Palestine, and let the Jewish inhabitants stay there.
Which fails to address the point in the first paragraph of my previous post.
>> Jewish is most certainly a national identity. I do not believe in or follow most of the precepts of Judaism, yet I remain a Jew by nationality. One can be a citizen of the Federal Republic of Germany today without being an ethnic German–but few regard the ethnic Turks, Vietnamese, Albanians and others who have acquired German citizenship as truly and authentically German.
I can become German by moving to Germany, Greek by moving to Greece, Albanian by moving to Albania…but I cannot become Jewish by moving to Israel. I can become Israeli. That is the nationality of Israel. “Jewish” is not.
>> According to the ostensibly secularist vision of the PLO, as outlined in the Palestinian National Charter, “Palestine” would be first and foremost an Arab state …
I believe it should be the nation of the Palestinians, Arab or otherwise.
>> Israel has had non-Jewish High Court justices, cabinet members, and brigadier generals drawn from its Arabic-speaking minorities. How many non-ethnic Greeks or Swedes serve in such high positions in those countries, respectively? Looking at the wikipedia article on the cabinet of Greece, I see that every single name looks Greek–even though Greece has large communities of Albanians, Roma and Slavic speakers–is Greece a Hellenic supremacist state?
Do those countries have laws that benefit one group above all other groups? If ‘yes’, then they are supremacist countries. If ‘no’, then they are not.
>> It can be a state of the Jewish nation and all of its non-Jewish citizens without any contradiction …
Secular, democratic and egalitarian? If so, that’s wonderful.
>> Justice was done when Israel captured the Old City in 1967 …
That’s what you consider “justice”? Hmmm…
>> If and when there is a peace agreement, Arabs who lost properties and assets in what became Israel should be entitled to present their claims for compensation and they should be compensated if those claims prove to valid, just as my ex-wife’s family should be entitled to be compensated for the assets they were forced to abandon in Iraq in the 1950s.
I notice that your ex-wife’s family does not have to present claims and have those claims validated. Is this an intentional or unintentional omission?
>> But, no, they don’t have a right to “return” en masse to Israel.
I don’t support an “en masse” return. I support a limited return, with the option of compensation in lieu.
No, you weren’t, because no one here cares one way or another what Israel’s aspirations are within the confines of Israel’s recgonized borders, and furthermore, you refue to recgonize the fact that Zionist aspirations have materialized in such a way that Palestinians aspirations are being sacrificed.
How could you be so lame? All you’ve done is cite one anecdotale example and tries to pass that off as a typical scenario. Meanwhile, you admit your parents were Palestinian citizens, but keep insisting that this does not mean that Palestinian citizenship meant citizenship of Palestine.
It also happens to be true. There is only one Zionism (the Zionism that exists today). Zionism is and has always been a political movement, which has exploited religious Judaism for pragmatic and cynical reasons. You can’t have roots in Eretz Yisrael, becasue Eretz Yisrael is fiction.
Whether the Mizrahi-Sepharadi were more receptive to Zionism is irrelevant, thy weew still in the minority, no matter how desperately you try to spin it.
What do you mean by massacres ? There was only one massacre at Hebron. The riots were a response to Zionist immigration and expulsion of Palestinian from their land, as well as well publicised declarations of plans to get rid of the Arabs.
Yes, that woudl explain the racist and ihnumane Iron Wall doctrine,
Nor was there ever a sovereign state geopolitical entity known as Israel prior to 1948. None of Israel’s claims to the West Bank or Jerusalem have been recognized by the international community, yet you celebrate the seizure of both.
Don’t confuse the fact that Israel is able to flout human rights and international law with the fact that is is indeed obliged to allow refugees it expelled to return. Had Israel ahd a leg to stand on legally, they would not have murdered Bernadotte.
Shingo, No Jewish states prior to 1948? You really should bone up on your History. Ever heard of the First Temple period?, the Second Temple? the Hasmonean kingdom? the Great Revolt? the Bar Kokhva revolt?
There were people in this country who self-identified as Jews way before there were people who self-identified as Palestinians.
Israel has no legitimacy.
No State has an inherent right to exist. States simply do exist. People exist.
And the ‘Jewish People’ – an abstraction that in relation to Zionism purports that all Jews are spoken for by THE State of Israel – have no inherent right to any territory on Earth.
Self-determination belongs to people of a territory.
I’m sure the European colonists who annihilated the Native American population of what’s now the United States, felt they had an inherent right to the land they stole (Manifest Destiny).
There is no moral basis for saying that the Jewish State was right in ethnically cleansing 800K Palestinians from their homes and then creating a Jewish majority. Moreover, that ethnic cleansing has not ceased.
Here comes the 67′ War, and afterwards, Israel further colonizes what is left of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza. Etc etc. Decades follow – blah blah blah – same old story with some minor adjustments.
Now, you keep harping on Palestinian identity.
All identities are contrived. There is nothing special about being Jewish. There is nothing special about Judaism. Before Jewishness, there was some other identity. Before Judaism there was some other religion. All these identities are man-made, unless you sincerely believe that God exists and if he does, by definition – you believe he favors Jews in Israel/Palestine over these so-called Palestinians.
That’s the logic here according to you – that because Palestinian identity is somehow MORE contrived than Jewish/Israeli/Zionist identity, that these ‘Palestinians’ and their ‘Palestinian Mandate/State/etc.’, have no right to the land you covet.
Here’s the plain truth – that area was not ‘Jewish’ enough. The numbers don’t lie. It was mostly Arab. During the early part of last century, Nationalism was en vogue. What can be more contrived than nationalist identity? However, at the same time it’s part of human nature.
So why shouldn’t Palestinians have the right to feel out their own Nationalism and develop an identity? If you weren’t such a ridiculous racist devoid of a moral compass (unless it’s pointing toward ‘Eretz Israel’) then you’d see that.
There is no Jewish State such as it is, without the Nakba. The Jewish State meant, a Jewish majority. You don’t make a Jewish majority without getting rid of all those Arabs – and you can call them ANYTHING you want, or deny that they are Palestinians – it does not change the historical fact that they existed and were there in larger numbers than you.
And finally, I do agree that Israel does not have to accept the Palestinian RoR. Israel is a racist, apartheid State. It is a fascist ethno-cratic State. When I see those Israel-day parades or whatever, it reminds me of Nazis basking in the glory of the Reich. I honestly feel scared to go there as someone with dark-skin and who could pass for an Arab.
Given the institutional discrimination against Arabs, and the on-going theft, abuse, murder of Palestinians and their land – I think it’s a TRUISM to say that Israel and Zionism promote racism/hatred of the other and all the rest.
The Palestinians simply wanted to come home – but once again, you politicize this ‘want’ (and RIGHT) as a contrived nationalism (as if any nationalism was ‘self-explanatory’ and ‘justified universally above all others’) – and lastly, you deny that Palestinian identity is acceptable because there was no official, bureaucratically recognized blah blah blah Palestinian State.
It would be funny, if it weren’t so disgusting and hateful.
The Palestinians identified as Palestinian Arabs. They didn’t identify as Martians. They had a civil society and all the rest. And it took a great deal of work to erase their existence.
Everything you’ve wrote is based on the premise that Jews, by virtue of being Jewish, have inherent self-determination.
That a Jew from Brooklyn has more legitimate claim to land around the world, then the people living there – who have lived their for hundreds if not thousands of years but whom are presently denied their rights there.
So Zionism is racist and bigoted. It gives rights and special privileges to Jews over non-Jews – OBVIOUSLY.
Whereas, Palestinians – THE PEOPLE OF THE LAND, BASED ON LOCATION, NOT RELIGION – simply wanted to come home after they were thrown out by your terrorist groups and the Yishuv.
That’s right Jon, no Jewish state prior to 1948.
Yes – nothing to do with a state. BTW. Have you ever wonder why there is not a granule fo archeologicl evidence of this Temple?
See above.
Kingdoms are not states, and it was a fiefdom at best.
Revolts can happen anywhere. Both lasted no more than 2-3 years – hardly the stuff of great states, let alone the basis of a 2000 year old land claim.
There was an arab Revolt in Palestine, but that didn’t mean there was a Palestinian state at tht time.
There aren’t even maps of these so called “states”, in fact, the very concept of a state didn’t exist at the time these civlizations were alledged to have existed.
Irrelevant. There were people who identified as many other civlizations before Judaism was even conceived.
I was responding to a bigot who can’t see the obvious hypocrisy of denying the moral validity of Jewish aspirations for national self-determination in a Jewish state while simultaneously endorsing the validity of Arab national aspirations, “Palestinian” or otherwise.
I’ve demonstrated that the terms “Arab” and “Palestinian” specifically included the indigenous Muslims, Christians, and Jews – and that representatives of each of those communities participated in the General Syrian Congress. The Palestinian National Charter includes the indigenous Jews among the people that are considered Palestinian. The Palestinian leadership, including President Abbas and Prime Minister Fayyad, have stated that illegal Israeli settlers can become naturalized Palestinians and remain the the Palestinian territories. So far, you and the other Zionists posting the typical knee-jerk reactionary talkbacks have failed to explain how that could possibly amount to “ethnic supremacist chauvinism”.
FYI, there never was any “moral” or legal imperative for the establishment of a “Jew”-ish state in Palestine. Tony Judt spoke for many of us: “The very idea of a “Jewish state”—a state in which Jews and the Jewish religion have exclusive privileges from which non-Jewish citizens are forever excluded—is rooted in another time and place. Israel, in short, is an anachronism.” The Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946, expressed the view that any attempt to establish independent Jewish and Arab Palestinian States would only result in civil strife that would “threaten the peace of the world.” The UNSCOP majority report concluded that Jewish immigration to Palestine could not solve the international problems caused by displaced persons in Europe without adversely effecting the standing and rights of the non-Jewish communities (that used to live in Palestine). The UN Security Council agreed. It called for another Special Session of the General Assembly to propose a peaceful solution to the crisis. It decided upon the need to return the Palestinian refugees to their homes and properties or to compensate any that wished to opt-out.
It’s amazing that you cite a case which appears to deal with someone who was an Ashkenazi Jew (judging by the surname) and who was born an Ottoman citizen in what was then part of Ottoman Syria and acquired Palestinian citizenship under the British Mandate, as somehow proving that there was once a sovereign state called Palestine.
I’d be happy to explain that to you, since like many Israeli-Americans you seem to suffer from amnesia when it comes to the actual legal foundations of the countries of your nationality. The United States and many other States continue to fulfill their obligations under the post-WWI treaties by recognizing the newly created States and their citizen’s new nationalities.
Norman Bentwich served as the Legal Secretary and Attorney General of Palestine. He explained that the coming into force of Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne on August 26, 1924 allowed the governments of the States of Palestine, Syria, and Iraq to issue Nationality Acts. According to Bentwich, the guiding principle adopted was that Ottoman subjects habitually resident in the detached territories became ipso facto nationals of the State to which the territory had been transferred.
For example, the Mixed Courts of Egypt ruled that the former Ottoman territories placed under Mandate had the character of regular States, and that their inhabitants possessed the nationality of those States in accordance with Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne. The Court held that the Arab plaintiff had Palestinian nationality, and was a foreign subject in Egypt. — Reports: Gazette des Tribunaux – Mixtes, 1926, p. 119; 53 Clunet (1926), p.1069 cited in Case No 34 “Mandated States”, John Fischer Williams, Hersh Lauterpacht (editors), International Law Reports, Volume 3, Cambridge University Press, 1929, ISBN: 0521463483, page 48
In 1995 the State Department published a Memorandum of Conversation between William Crawford Jr. and Mr. Shaul Bar-Haim from the Israeli Embassy (February 7, 1963) regarding Jerusalem. Bar-Haim said “The use of the term “Palestine” is historical fiction; it encourages the Palestine entity concept; its “revived usage enrages” individual Israelis”. Crawford replied “It is difficult to see how it “enrages” Israeli opinion. The practice is consistent with the fact that, ”in a de jure sense”, Jerusalem was part of Palestine and has not since become part of any other sovereignty. That it was not a simple matter, since there was a ”quota nationality”, in regard to which U.S. legislation and regulation continue to employ the term Palestine. See Foreign Relations of the United States, 1961-1963, Vol. Xviii, Near East, United States. Dept. of State, G.P.O., 1995, ISBN 0160451590, page 341. US immigration law, U.S. TITLE 8, CHAPTER 12, § 1101. Definitions says “(a) As used in this chapter— (14) The term “foreign state” includes outlying possessions of a foreign state, but self-governing dominions or territories under mandate or trusteeship shall be regarded as separate foreign states.
In US and international law “sovereignty” is just a synonym for jurisdiction. The judgments of courts in protected, dependent, or trucial states usually enjoy “sovereign immunity” from challenges in our courts. In the UNESCO series “International law: achievements and prospects”, editor Mohammed Bedjaoui noted that Turkey was obliged to accept a very clear relinquishment of sovereignty by acquiescing in the regime of Capitulations. Between 1832 and 1925 the United States government established an extraterritorial jurisdiction – called “Palestine”, which had its own laws and magistrates. It was aligned under the US State Department and submitted annual and daily country reports to the Department and the US Bureau of Foreign Commerce. See for example the annual report for 1884 starting at mid-page here. See also Gabriel Bie Ravndal, “The Origin of the Capitulations and of the Consular Institution”, US Govt. Print. Off., 1921; and Ruth Kark, American consuls in the Holy Land, 1832-1914, Wayne State University Press, 1994 BTW, Kark documents the fact that the majority of Jews were not Ottoman subjects. It was common practice during the 19th century for them to retain their citizenship elsewhere or for the various consulates in the Levant and in Palestine to extend consular protection to them by designating them as proteges. So, there was a place called Palestine. It did not include the territory of the Vilayet of Damascus east of the Jordan river and a considerable number of the Jews living there were not Ottoman subjects.
When the Ottoman “Governor of Jerusalem and Palestine” ordered the deportation of Jews from Palestine, the US government was the only one of the ten western countries concerned that refused to carry out the decree. Our representative advised Raouf Pasha that it absolutely would not discriminate against American citizens on the basis of their race or religion. See Index to the executive documents of the House of Representatives for the second session of the fiftieth Congress, 1888-’90, page 1560
In “The Turkish American Controversy over Nationality”, Leland J. Gordon said
Pending the ratification of a treaty of peace with Turkey (more on that below), the United States continued to demand that its citizens living in Mandate Palestine be immune from taxes and that they be turned over to it for trial in the American Consular Courts in accordance with the Capitulations. It insisted that, under existing treaties, the US had the right to operate consular courts separate from those of Great Britain. See for example the unauthorized firearms case involving Abraham Chaikin in the Papers relating to the foreign relations of the United States, 1921, pages 122 & 123
The terms of the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate made it clear that the rights of Jews living elsewhere are not to be prejudiced by the Zionist enterprise. In an April 20, 1964 letter to Rabbi Elmer Berger of the American Council for Judaism from Assistant Secretary Phillips Talbot, the State Department confirmed that it “does not recognize a legal-political relationship based upon religious identification of American citizens. It does not in any way discriminate among American citizens upon the basis of religion. Accordingly, it should be clear that the Department of State does not regard the “Jewish people” concept as a concept of international law.” See Volume 8 Whiteman’s Digest of International Law, 1967, page 35.
You should also recall that Zionists settlers in Palestine didn’t waste any time staking their claims to the surplus “State lands” of Palestine in accordance with Article 6 of the Mandate. FYI, the Courts of Palestine ruled that the Mandate was only legally enforceable in so far as it had been incorporated in domestic enabling legislation. The Palestine Treaty of Peace (Turkey) Amendment Ordinance, 1926, added Article 60 of the Treaty of Lausanne to the Schedule of the Treaty of Peace (Turkey) Ordinance, 1925. Article 60 of the Treaty of Lausanne stipulated that:
The Supreme Court of Palestine settled a dispute with the heirs of the Sultan when it ruled that Turkey’s ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne was a valid act of state that ceded lands and properties on the Ottoman civil lists to the successor states, including Palestine. It was not a matter that was subject to private claims or challenges in the Courts of Palestine. See Hersh Lauterpacht (editor), International Law Reports, Volume 14, Cambridge University Press, 1951, ISBN: 0521463599, pages 36-40.
It’s odd that you claim US citizenship on the basis of the operation of our country’s laws, but hesitate to accept the Court’s determination regarding Kletter’s acquisition of Palestinian nationality, and resultant denaturalization in accordance with the same statutes. Article 22 of the Treaty of Versailles provisionally recognized the former Ottoman communities as independent nations. Article 434 of the Treaty of Versailles stipulated that Germany was required to recognize the dispositions made concerning the territories of the former Ottoman Empire, “and to recognize the new States within their frontiers as there laid down.” The other Central powers and the treaty articles that required them to recognize the new states were:
*Bulgaria Article 60 of the Treaty of Neuilly;
*Hungary Article 74 (2) of The Treaty of Trianon
*Austria Article 90 of The Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye
The US ratified the Treaty of Lausanne. Article 30 stipulated that:Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.
That treaty provision was implemented under the auspices of the Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council of 24 July 1925 as the Jewish Legal Secretary of Palestine, Bentwich, described in the article I cited above.
Some how I don’t believe you that your family has lived in palestine for 18 generations. if I haved learned anything its that those who supprt Israel will lie about any and everything at the drop of a hat. and even if they did that still doesn’t negate the rights of the palestinian people who contrary to your rascist implication aren’t recent arrivals.
And more than 20% of Israeli citizens are not of Jewish ancestry .
And non-Jewish newcomers can become naturalized citizens of Israel as well, either through marriage to an Israeli citizen (of any religion or ethnicity) or through a process of legal residence. However, Israel, as a Jewish state, quite naturally jumps Jews ahead in the line ahead of say, a Thai immigrant to Israel who opens up a restaurant and resides legally in Israel for a decade or so before applying for and obtaining Israeli citizenship. In exactly the same manner, the Federal Republic of Germany, as a German state, will jump people of German ancestry ahead on the line. A descendant of ethnic Germans (Aussiedler), whose family has lived in Russia for centuries and who can’t speak any German will be able to obtain German citizenship much more quickly and expeditiously than a child of Nigerian workers who was born and raised in Germany.
It’s my understanding that you can have dual German citizenship along with citizenship of another country–but that may be in cases when one parent is a German citizen and another a non-German citizen.
Provided that their parents were lawfully residing in Germany for a certain period of time. It’s not like the US’s or Canada’s automatic jus soli granting of birthright citizenship regardless of the immigration status of the parents. In my opinion countries like Germany have a much more rational approach–and I say this even though I admit I am a beneficiary US birthright citizenship–my parents were on student and worker visas at the time of my birth and only later did they get green cards–but for a quirk in the interpretation of the 14th Amendment, I don’t see why I should have been automatically granted US citizenship at birth–as my parents were pretty sure they would be returning to Israel in a mere two years’ time.
Absolutely. It’s the same reason most members of the human species identify with their national group, and something that most so-called erroneously named “progressives” consider self-evident, natural and legitimate for Inuits, Roma, Cherokee and “Palestinians”, yet indefensible for Jews.
That’s why I wrote “Ireland was in the same boat a few decades ago” (Past tense.)
You won’t find me defending the ridiculous system of marriage and divorce in Israel. It’s something that needs to be reformed ASAP, but civil marriage is on its way, albeit slowly. Nevertheless, as you pointed out yourself, marriages solemnized by a recognized jurisdiction abroad are extended full faith and credit by Israel, whether it was interfaith or same-sex. Additionally, same-sex civil unions and common-law interfaith marriages are officially recognized in Israel, with attendant inheritance and hospital visitation rights. As for “all other marriages hav[ing] to be performed by the country’s Chief Rabbinate and Rabbinical courts”, that’s also false. Muslim citizens of Israel can have their marriages solemnized in Israeli Sharia courts (and Muslim ‘ulema clergy in Israel can also officiate at the wedding of a Muslim male and a Jewish or Christian female–not the other way round, though!), Christian citizens of Israel can be married in various recognized Christian denominations, Druze can be married by their clergy, etc…. It’s still a better system than what exists in Egypt or Lebanon (which have no civil marriage either) or Malaysia, which is generally considered a democracy, and where civil marriage is allowed–but for non-Muslims only–in other words, Malaysia isn’t concerned if its Chinese Christians or Buddhists get married outside their faiths to each other, as long as a Muslim is not involved.
As one who is twice divorced and currently paying child support for three daughters on two continents, I personally look forward to the day when all marriage is banned!
As I said before, I don’t defend the absence of civil marriage and divorce in Israel, but any Israeli still has the option of taking an hour’s flight to Larnaca, Cyprus and legally registering their marriage in Israel on the same day. They can then live their lives practically religion-free, and eat pork at the nude beach on Yom Kippur if they so choose, nobody will harass them.
Sure, and Mein Kampf was merely a plea for interethnic understanding. Unlike the PLO-drafted Palestine National Covenant, which makes some attempt to finesse the issue with some duplicitous lip service about recognizing Jews who had “resided normally” in Palestine prior to the “Zionist invasion” and granting them the dubious honor of being “Palestinian,” the Hamas Charter does not mince any words– and expressly refers to Palestine being an Islamic Waqf in perpetuity and openly discusses the Day of Judgment for the Jews (Jews, not “Zionists”) who will have to hide behind rocks and trees that will call out “O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!” The Hamas Charter is a blatant, shameless document endorsing genocide.
Depends when and where. On the whole, perhaps, Jews were treated a few degrees better in medieval times as a “tolerated” minority rather than as the “despised” minority they were regarded as in Christian-ruled countries during more or less the same time period, and on balance Jews endured fewer outrages under Muslim rule, but they were still discriminated against and occasionally persecuted outright. Jews have lived under Muslim rule at different times and places for approximately 14 centuries and there have been highs and lows. The “Golden Age” in Spain is often invoked as a high point, it lasted for a century or two of approximately 700 years of Moorish Muslim rule in different parts of Spain. To be sure, Jews in Spainthen enjoyed a higher status than anywhere in Christian Europe during the same time period, it’s a huge mistake to extrapolate from that that Jews always lived charmed lives under Muslim rule. (Jews in Spain also suffered under Almoravide and Almoahide persecutions–the latter were a fanatic Muslim sect that was the al Qaeda of its day.) Jews living under Muslim rule have been subjected to forced conversions in Mashad, Iran as recently as the mid-1800s and were forced to observe Judaism secretly, much like the crypto-Jews in Spain who converted outwardly to Christianity.
To the extent that ancient Israel and Judah followed the halakhic system, there was a system in place that recognized non-Jews as members of a protected class–called ger toshav. It’s not too dissimilar from the Islamic system of categorizing non-Muslim adherents of monotheist faiths as dhimmi–or ahl al kitab (People of the Book). Neither is appropriate for a modern 21st-century state–except the Jewish proponents of ger toshav status for non-Jews in Israel aare a tiny minority, whereas Islamist proponents of dhimmi status for non-Muslims win elections in Gaza. Meanwhile, non-Jews still enjoy equal rights under the law in modern Israel, yes, discrimination persists in many quarters, but non-Jews in Israel can and do reach the pinnacle of political, economic and academic success. Their numbers includes High Court justices, cabinet members, brigadier generals and ambassadors. This would not be possible in a so-called “apartheid” state.
Speak for yourself. Many people here expressly take issue with Israel’s definition of itself as a Jewish state within any borders.
One “Palestinian” aspiration that Zionism will always have a problem with will be an Arab or (Muslim) “Falastin” min al-bahr ila al-nahr–from the sea to the river–in other words the destruction of Israel within any borders and a frequently chanted slogan by extremists supported by witless people like you.
I didn’t bring up Kletter v Dulles in a contorted attempt to prove that there was such a thing as an internationally recognized sovereign Palestinian state. You need to improve your reading comprehension skills.
Modern political Zionism is a political movement that can have many manifestations, religious, secular, socialist, capitalist, etc., but Zionist precepts are part and parcel of Judaism and the Zionist impulse has always been present in Judaism–although the word “Zionism”wasn’t coined until the 19th century. Judaism is as much about the idea that all Jews collectively constitute one nation and will return to their ancestral home as it is about Mankind’s relationship with a Deity. Although many religious Jews reject the programmatic attempt to build a contemporary Jewish nation-state (which is what modern political Zionism has so successfully achieved in doing), there can never be any such thing as a “Judaism” without the central tenet of Eretz Yisrael and the idea of Jewish nationhood.
Mizrahim/Sepharadim were the majority in the Old Yishuv (the pre-state Jewish community in Eretz Yisrael) just as they are in present-day Israel, and, in contrast to the smaller Ashkenazi communities in the Old Yishuv, they tended to be very receptive to Zionism, in contrast to “Hostage”‘s assertion that the “The majority of the indigenous Jews were not Zionists.”
1928-29 saw Arab-led pogroms against Jews and massacres in Sefat, Hebron, Jerusalem, and Jaffa. My father’s Uncle Nissim was slashed during the Jerusalem riots, survived and bore a long ugly scar until he died in his 80s.
The immediate catalyst and excuse for the riots and subsequent massacres is that some Jews dared to put up a temporary partition, basically a curtain hanging from a rod, to separate the men’s and women’s prayer sections at the Western Wall during Yom Kippur services, which was a technical breach of the status quo, Jews under Muslim rule for centuries were traditionally only given leave to make use of a small section to pray in near the remnant of their former Temple.
Actually, there were predecessor Jewish states in Eretz Yisrael, the kingdoms known as Yisrael and Yehuda. This is not really up for debate.
Israel has never since 1967 made any official claim to all of the West Bank and has never applied Israeli law there, which would be tantamount to de facto annexation; and indeed every Israeli prime minister from Rabin to Netanyahu ahas endorsed the idea of territorial compromise and relinquishing most of the West Bank to allow for the creation of the first-ever Palestinian Arab state in history. Jerusalem is another story. Although the Zionist leadership did initially accept the internationalization of Jerusalem and the UNSCOP boundaries, they were rejected by all the Arabs and Jordan subsequently annexed the West Bank and Eastern Jerusalem, from which all Jews were ethnically cleansed for 19 years. Indeed, Israel should celebrate the reunification of our capital city (where generations of my ancestors were born) and the fact that Jerusalemites of all religions and national backgrounds are free to move anywhere within the city.
Israel didn’t murder Bernadotte, the Lehi group did. Ben Gurion was seriously considering Bernadotte’s proposals, which would have been a terrible mistake, putting the Negev and Haifa in Arab hands, as Israel was in a much weaker and desperate position than it would find itself in a few months later, but he did take advantage of the Bernadotte assassination to defang the Etzel and Lehi.
Shingo, I see that you’ve developed a unique version of history (“the Shingo Version”) , which differs from the accepted historical and archaeological record.
The textbook definition of a state is a unit with the following attributes: territory, population, government and independence.
Historians do refer to “states” in Antiquity. A kingdom can certainly be a state, if it answers that definition.
I’m holding my Penguin Atlas of World History (not a “Zionist ” text), which refers to the First Temple, Second Temple and Hasmonean periods, with maps.
The First Temple- I mentioned the period not the temple itself.
No trace of the building itself will ever be found, because it was thoroughly destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 587 BCE, and a second temple was built on the same site, and it’s not possible to dig on the site.
The Second Temple- plenty of historical and archaeological evidence.
The Hasmonean Kingdom -see above.
You may be surprised but I actually agree with one point you made: which people is “older” or has longer ties to the land is
irrelevant to today’s conflict . There’s no rule that “younger” nationalities have less rights than older ones, and I never claimed as much.
Well, they did get ‘em all from the West Bank in 1948-49 from what later became the Jordanian West Bank and East Jerusalem. Every single Jew was forced to leave, including cousins who were still living in the Old City at the time. Israelis had no doubt at the time (and the sane among us still have no doubt) that had we lost our independence war the same fate would have befallen the Jews in the rest of the country.
If they want to be second-class and persist in seeing themselves as second-class, then they will be second-class. Nobody with his eyes in his head denies discrimination against Arabs in Israel exists. There is casual bigotry and institutional obstacles to overcome–but Arabs can and do achieve positions in Israeli society that belies a permanent caste-like “second-class status”. They serve as Supreme Court justices, cabinet ministers, brigadier generals who have led the Home Front command and the Givati Brigade, senior diplomats and hospital directors. One of the biggest property developers and builders in Tel Aviv is an Arab.
You may or may not be able to become a German citizen by moving to Germany, a Greek citizen by moving to Greece, an Albanian citizen by moving to Albania–but assuming you manage to become naturalized and obtain citizenship in any of those countries, the likelihood is that few Germans, Greeks or Albanians will ever regard you as a German, Greek or Albanian…perhaps after the passage of much time and prolonged residence there your native-born children and other descendants in the aforementioned countries could be accepted as Germans, Greeks or Albanians.
No. Wrong. “Israeli” currently refers to your citizenship status in Israel, not “nationality”. An Israeli citizen can be a Jew by nationality (an agnostic non-observant individual such as yours truly still remains a Jew), or an Israeli citizen can by nationality be an Arab Muslim, Christian, or Druze–an Israeli citizen can also be a naturalized Darfur Muslim refugee or the child of Buddhist Thai restaurant owners who have become legally naturalized in Israel. But to have Jewish nationality, you have to be born Jewish or convert to Judaism. Nevertheless, when one considers that even until the recent past, words meaning “Israelite” and “Hebrew” were synonyms for “Jew” in many European tongues (and even in polite company in English), you can easily argue that having “Israeli” citizenship confers some kind of Jewish citizenship on anyone who possesses an Israeli ID card anyway.
Many modern, democratic, liberal states such as present-day Greece (and Israel) have laws that privilege people of their own ethnicity and national origin when it comes to granting citizenship. People of remote Greek ancestry and people of remote German ancestry can immigrate to Greece and Germany, respectively, and get Greek and German citizenship much more easily than people who cannot prove such a claim. It is right and just that those states have such policies, just as it is right and just for Israel to prefer immigrants of Jewish background. It is not right and just to perpetuate discrimination and deny equal opportunity and other civic rights to people who are already citizens based on their national origin; and if such states do so as a matter of policy then they are practicing ethnic supremacism.
Good for you. A fair number of those calling themselves Palestinians today don’t have such a liberal definition of what “Palestinianness” entails, and many of them would even exclude non-Muslims. FWIW, I really don’t give a toss how a possible future Palestinian state defines itself–Arab, Islamist, anarcho-syndicalist or Maoist, it’s not up to me. My main concern is that it not represent a security threat to the Jewish state of Israel.
Israel is essentially a secular society, despite the influence of religious political parties. It is democratic, and has all the flaws and blemishes that other democracies have, and it’s as egalitarian as any other society in the Western world–which is to say not very. There is a degree of class mobility, but most of the wealth is still concentrated in a few dozen super-rich oligarchic families and industrial concerns. Most Israelis manage pretty okay and get by month to month.
Naturally they should have to present claims if they ever seek to be compensated for assets and property they were forced to abandon in Iraq. I thought that was implicit. But the Iraq-born generation is nearly gone now, and they’ve all made good lives for themselves in Israel and elsewhere–I don’t think it’s very high on their priority list.
Absolutely. I think it’s much more just than the city divided by barbed wire where Jewish worshipers were forbidden to pray at the Western Wall for 19 years.
Good for you. When Pakistan implements a right of return for Hindus who fled after partition and India does the same, when the Czech Republic and Poland re-admit ethnic Germans, when Slovakia implements a right of return to ethnic Hungarians, then maybe Israel should follow their examples. But those countries solved their population transfer issues in the context of compensation, there’s no reason why Israel and the Palestinian Arab refugee issue should be different.
And non-Jewish newcomers can become naturalized citizens of Israel as well, either through marriage to an Israeli citizen (of any religion or ethnicity) or through a process of legal residence.
This is not true. The naturalisation process for non-Jews married to Israeli citizens is arduous, and Palestinians are not eligible (according to the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law [temporary provision] 5763 – 2003). It is virtually impossible for non-Jews to obtain legal residence permits that are not job-specific and preclude the possibility of naturalisation. On the off chance that a non-Jew does manage to obtain legal residence of a kind that would allow naturalisation (other than family reunification), the decision is ultimately at the discretion of the minister of the interior, and citizenship is rarely granted. It is thus not a matter of “jumping ahead in the line”, but clear an blatant discrimination, of a kind not practised in Germany (which has also enacted important changes in recent years) or other western democracies, although immigration policies throughout the industrialised world do leave a lot to be desired.
The question of dual citizenship in Germany reminds me of a case, a number of years ago, in which a Palestinian Israeli renounced his Israeli citizenship in order to obtain German citizenship. A few years later, he wished to return to Israel, and was granted only temporary visas that had to be renewed every few months. He was not eligible to regain his citizenship through any naturalisation process. An Israeli Jew in his position however, even if required to renounce Israeli citizenship, could easily regain it instantly, according to the Law of Return.
Bullshit. The game was rigged from the beginning and Israel’s foray into territory beyond it’s 1948 borders had nothing to do with self defence, or self preservation, but conquest. The Arabs armies made no attempt to invade Israeli territory and the Jordanians, the only army that had the means to take on the Israelis, assured the British foreign office that their aim was to defend the Arab area of Palestine.
Spoken like a true racial supremacist. I guess the Jews in Germany were victims of genocide because they persisted in seeing themselves as persecuted.
You’re projecting your own bigotry. Germans and Greeks will regard anyone who embraces their new nationality as fellow countrymen. After all, Germany wouldn’t be the preferred destination for Russian Jews (rather than Israel) if they were not made to feel welcome and at home.
But to have Jewish nationality, you have to be born Jewish or convert to Judaism.
There is no such thing as Jewish nationality. Israel offers one form of citizenship/nationality and only one pasport. The term “Israelite” was a Biblical term that only became synonymous with Jews after Israel was created in 1948. Same thing with Hebrew, seeing as even Hertzl recognized that very few Jews spoke Hebrew at the time, hence proposed that German should be the language of the Jewish state.
You can just as easily argue that this is a fascist, apartheid policy of institutionalized racism.
Name one country that has any laws that benefit one group above all other groups. Greece has no laws that privilege people of their any ethnicity over another.
It is interesting to watch you trying to distance yourself from the racist laws in Israel while simultaneously justifying and embracing them. Israel does indeed perpetuate discrimination and deny equal opportunity and other civic rights to Arabs, but your honest at least to admit that Israel does indeed practicing ethnic supremacism.
Who might those people be?
False again. No other democracy defines itself as a theocracy the way Israel does. In fact, Henry Siegman points out that Israel is the only apartheid state in the West.
It helps that they were adopted by a nanny state that has been welded to the teet of the most powerful and wealthy state in the world, and receiving massive infusions of aid.
False again. Jews were allowed into the Western Wall throughout those 19 years. The ban applies to all Israelis due to the fact that Israel and Jordan were in a state of war.
You can carry on like an infantile brat all you like, but a child molester being read his sentence doesn’t get to insist that he be granted clemency until all the other child rapists in the state get caught.
Your insufferable sense of privilege and entitlement is such a cliché.
It used to be 70% before Isrel ethnically clesnsed 750,000 Palestinians to achieve their majority.
Which no other democracy does ie. givign preference to those of a partitular ethnicity or religious persuasion.
Absolute rubbish. No one of German ancestry jumps to the head of the line unless they have relatives in Germany. Most Europeans will obtain citizenship more easily in Germany because they are considered to be better educated and skilled that a Nigerian.
And I don’t see why you should have been automatically granted Israeli citizenship because you happen to be Jewish.
You’re still clinging to the false claim that Jews are somehow being denied anything in Israel. Please remind us when the Inuits, Cherokee and Palestinians, expelled an indigenous population and argued it was “natural and legitimate” to do so.
On the contrary. Laws in Israel are becoming increasingly influenced by religious extremism. You won’t be seeing civil marriage until Israel becomes a secular state.
And how is Israel’s system better than Malaysia’s which allows at least some civil marriage allowed?
As usual, the Hamas Charter features among the posts despite the fact that it contains a qualifier that forbids members harm to those who have not “borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings”. No such qualifier is seen in the founding documents of organisati¬ons like Likud, Shas and Betar all of which pledge the clearance of Palestinia¬ns from at least the Jordan to the sea.
The leader of Shas is well known for his pronouncem¬ents calling for the “annihilat¬ion of Arabs”.
Betar has some interestin¬g ideas, not dissimilar from Sheik Yassin:
“Betar supports the concept of a Jewish state with a Jewish Majority in its biblical-h-omeland.” “The entire land of Israel as given to the Jewish people by G-d with it’s eternal capital Jerusalem.¬”
“100% Jewish Labor in all Jewish enterprise¬s.”
“Every great colonizati¬on in history, has always entailed a revolt of the natives.”
“Our aim is to make Betar such a world organism which, at a sign from the center, will be able simultaneo¬usly to move tens of thousands of hands in the cities of all countries.¬”
“Disciplin¬e is the subordinat¬ion of a mass to one leader”
“every Jew is a “prince” “
link to www¬.betar.co.¬uk
The King’s Torah is also illuminati¬ng:
link to www¬.countercu¬rrents.org¬
You’re clutching at straws. Forced conversions at the time was anything but persecution.
False. Since 1948, Israel has refused to define it’s borders, so how would you even know, especially seeing as the demand to be recognized as a Jewish state was first made by Netenyahu in 2009.
You mean the same aspiration that Israel’s government has? You have wronged these people and yet you’re still complaining that they are not showering you with affection?
No, you brought up one anecdotal example of someone you knew and tried to extrapolate that as being typical.
Zionism is Zionism. It has metastasized and infected religion, secular, socialist, capitalist ideals in Israel. It is not even 200 years old, so was never part of part and parcel of Judaism, made obvious by the fact that there are so many non Zionist Jews. The word “Zionism” was coined in the 19th century because that was when it was invented.
Still irrelevant. Most Jews rejected Zionism, hence they were anything but receptive to Zionism.
End of story.
There were no Arab-led pogroms against Jews, and there was one massacre in Hebron.
Being slashed during a riot does not a pogrom make. The riots were directed as much at the British as they were towards the colonization of Palestine by Jewish immigrants.
Bullshit. The riots were a result of the Arab Revolt that were being crushed by the British and the Jews did a lot more than hang a rod, they hung an Israeli flag.
They were tiny fiefdoms, not states.
That’s because they want the benefits of annexation without the obligation of offering citizenship to the population. The first-ever Jewish state in history was created in 1948.
False. Netanyahu campaign on a platform of rejection of a two state solution, as did Sharon and most Likud leaders. The building of illegal settlements and the Jewish only roads that divide the West Bank, along with the apartheid Wall has been a blatant land grab.
Take your Hasbara elseehere. Ben Gurion sold the idea of a partition to the Zionist Congress by assuring them that the UN plan was merely a first step and that the borders were temporary. That was before the Arabs rejected the partition plan.
FYI Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel.
False. The Lehi Group (under Shamir’s leadership) formed the commando unit of the Haganah and were under Ben Gurion’s command. . Ben Gurion never considered Bernadotte’s proposals, indeed, he rejected it as a matter of principal.
Israel was never in a weak and desperate position. They were armed to the teeth and the British had left them the British bases and camp, along with weapons, arms, tanks and vehicles and ammunition. This included 2,700 government buildings, 50 train stations, 3,000 km of paved roads, a number of sea ports, and 37 military camps filled with weapons and space parts.
Ben Gurion did not defang the Etzel and Lehi. The leaders were absorbed into the Israeli government and the Hanganah.
jon s
I see that you’re every bit as much of a religious fanatic as the shahs.
I guess you were only pulling our leg when you wrote your piece about post Zionism hey?
There is no archaeological record. Nothing, That’s after 100 years of excavation and digging.
The textbook definition of a state is a unit with the following attributes: territory, population, government and independence.
So what? That does not make them states.
False. Stone structures don’t disappear, no matter how much anyone tried to destroy them
None actually – even after 100 years of digging. Every time they find something, it turns out to be Roman.
No evidence of that either.
“the likelihood is that few Germans, Greeks or Albanians will ever regard you as a German, Greek or Albanian…”
Proof? So how long did you live in these respective countries that you know this, Mikhael? And how would you know when you would have been an outsider in the first place? And, are you recommending this POV be the norm in the USA too? Should us single citizen Americans regard you as not a real American too?
“And more than 20% of Israeli citizens are not of Jewish ancestry.”
But unlike the 10% of German citizens who are not of German blood, those 20% of non-Jewish Israeli citizens did not recently move there, but have lived there for many centuries. Big difference.
“It’s my understanding that you can have dual German citizenship along with citizenship of another country–but that may be in cases when one parent is a German citizen and another a non-German citizen.”
False. As I said, even if you were born there, after you reach a certain age you have to chose as an adult: you cannot be a citizen of Germany and another country.
I said, “You identify as a Jew because that’s your tribal affinity, your blood line and childhood culture.”
You said: “Absolutely. It’s the same reason most members of the human species identify with their national group, and something that most so-called erroneously named “progressives” consider self-evident, natural and legitimate for Inuits, Roma, Cherokee and “Palestinians”, yet indefensible for Jews.”
Do Americans and Canadians for example, identify their citizenship with a tribal group, a blood line? None of the people you list have a state, Mikhael. Israel is a state, and brags about itself being a democracy to boot; it’s consequential responsibilities to all people within its control and/or jurisdiction are much more than your list of people without a state of their own.
The founding HAMAS documents cannot be equated with a book by one German, Adolph Hitler, a book which he while in the prison in which he was put by the German government of the time. Shall we equate the favorite contemporary book by an Israeli–the one that advocates murdering Palestinian children because they might grow up to be adversaries of Israel, with the state of Israel? So much for your article and your logic. At least the contemporary German government of the time had the decency to put Hitler in prison.
I said: “World history shows that in both the West and the ME under Muslim rule, Jews often were treated better than the native masses by the ruling class that were of the same ethnic/religious background as the natives.”
Your long response (above) does not deny this. It simply hems and haws, premised on your “it all depends on where and when.” So much for real Jewish history as taught and calendarized; that’s a very skewed perspective of world history.
“No. Wrong. “Israeli” currently refers to your citizenship status in Israel, not “nationality””
So, it’s a misnomer to say or write “the nation of Israel?”
And, conversely to say or write “the Jewish nation” when describing the state of Israel?
Yeah, Mikhail sure does reveal his insufferable sense of privilege and entitlement–he reminds me of an old hardline KKK guy. I guess that’s what having dual American-Israeli citizenship does to you. The problem is that in the USA the KKK guy is lampooned even in cartoon shows, while the same mentality holds high political office in Israel.
Shingo,
At this point you’re embarassing youself. You can be anti-Zionist and anti-Israel, but to deny well established facts of ancient history is simply foolish.
-a religious fanatic? where did you get that? I’m not even Orthodox.(“as the shahs”? huh?)
-The Penguin Atlas that I cited and history books in general agree that states existed in Antiquity, including in ancient Israel.
-Stone structures do disappear, especially if the stones were reused for new building, which was common practise in the ancient world.
-there have been extensive archaological excavations relevant to the Second Temple period, though not on the site of the temple itself, for obvious reasons , and there have been many fascinating finds. There are also historical writings, such as those of Josephus .
Jon s, depends on what you mean by a state. It is by no means settled in archeology, or anthropology, or history that states existed as such in Antiquity. For example, kingdom is not a state, nor is a chiefdom. And there’s also a difference between a city-state, a state and a nation-state. It is common knowledge that archeology has produced hardly a drop of evidence that you claim for your version of ancient Israel.
Also, the most one can say about Josephus’s history of Israel is that the writings of Josephus on the subject were in line with the opinions of ancient Israel as described in the Old Testament.
The opinion was, the “sons of God” in Genesis were, in fact, fallen angels. The offspring they produced, the Nephilim, were of such a wicked nature, all of mankind was corrupted by them.
Josephus also believed the Nephilim were remarkably powerful, and intelligent, and that they provided a historical basis for the Greek mythological belief system.
The accuracy of Flavius Josephus has often been debated, especially as he often wrote to please certain audiences. He does provide valuable insights into the culture traits and beliefs of his era. Solid facts are different animals.
Citizen, as I mentioned, the textbook definition of a state is a framework with the following attributes: territory, population, government and independence. I see no problem with applying that definition to Antiquity.
What do you mean by “your version”? I’m the one in line with mainstream , conventional, historical accounts. If anyone has some “alternative” narrative – they need to provide proof.
As to Josephus, his main significance is not his inerpretation of Genesis, but his firsthand account of the events leading up to, and including, the Great Revolt and its aftermath, events in which he participated personally. His standpoint is, indeed, controversial, but as a source for the period, he’s indispensable.
Jon S,
I am not denying that there were Jewish tribes and fiefdom’s throughout history of the region, what we are debating is whether they were states. Clearly they were not.
Stone structures do no disssapear, In fact, there was a recent discovery in Egypt of buildings and pyramids (underground) that predate the existing ones. In Palestine, there are builduigns and structures that preate the first temple period.
There have indeed been extensive archaological excavations, but none fo them has turned up a grain of evidence inked to the Second Temple period. They are all Roman or Byzantine.
There have been no finds. One basalt tablet that is best described as inconclusive, and one column depicting the battle of Jerusalem in Rome.
Josephus wrote whatever suited his audience, including references to Jesus (a myth) so the guy’s credibility as a historian is practically non existent.
jon s,
That could be applied to most tribes throughout Antiquity who were nto considered states.
What do you mean by “your version”? I’m the one in line with mainstream , conventional, historical accounts. If anyone has some “alternative” narrative – they need to provide proof.
As to Josephus, his main significance is not his inerpretation of Genesis, but his firsthand account of the events leading up to, and including, the Great Revolt and its aftermath, events in which he participated personally. His standpoint is, indeed, controversial, but as a source for the period, he’s indispensable.
Since when is “arduous” a synonym for “not true”? I said non-Jews from abroad can become naturalized Israeli citizens, and it remains true that they can do so. Arduous or not, t non-Jews from abroad nevertheless can (and do) become naturalized Israeli citizens through a variety of methods.
Exactly as you said, an emergency temporary provision that applies to Palestinian Arab residents from the territories (and not “Palestinians” in general) enacted during the worst days of suicide bombings of the 2nd Intifadato prevent Palestinians from places like Jenin from easily gaining Israeli documentation through a quickie marriage to an Israeli Arab and then moving freely around Israel to commit terrorist outrages (this happened on a few occasions).. The PA-controlled areas, at the time the law was enacted were de facto enemy territory during what amounted to a state of war (as Gaza remains today) and it’s quite normal to limit citizens/residents of an enemy territory from gaining citizenship in your country.
Typically several hundred people a year successfully petition for Israeli citizenship,and sure it’s reviewed on a case-by-case basis…that’s how it should be done. A few years ago, nearly a thousand Darfur refugees were granted Israeli citizenship en bloc
It’s spelled “Mikhael”–it’s a transliteration from the Hebrew, not the Russian.
You don’t say! I’ve never heard of any KKK guy who celebrates the achievements of minorities in the US. I was very proud when Abdel Rahman Zuabi and Salim Jubran became the first Arabs to serve on the Israeli High Court—Jubran was a favorite professor of my brother when he taught at Haifa University’s Laws faculty so we basked with pride in the family connection–are you saying that KKK members celebrated Thurgood Marshall’s nomination? I had no idea that the KKK had so many liberal members. That’s so interesting. You learn something new every day.
A terribly weak analogy. Modern anthropological science indicates that all human beings have an ancestral connection to Africa. Not all human beings, American or otherwise, have a national, historic and cultural connection to the various countries that exist on that continent. Nearly all Jews are direct lineal descendants of people who once lived in Eretz Yisrael, and Jewish national culture is intimately bound up with that land.
Your assumption is false. Apartheid South Africa was a racial supremacist state that disenfranchised the non-white majority and privileged the white minority, which never exceeded 20%. Israel is a Jewish nation-state that has always allowed its minority citizens the right to vote and extends equal protection under the law to them, just as other liberal democratic nation-states extend similar protections to their minority ethnicities.
Jon S. gave a pretty good overview of the basic prerequisites of a state. Although the forms of political organization of states have evolved over the millennia, you really have no leg to stand on when you make your nonsensical and absurd claim that no states existed in antiquity. The Persian Empire, the Babylonian Empire, the Roman Empire–not states? They didn’t control territories, collect taxes, mint coins, enact laws?
And yes, there are numerous extrabiblical source references to the existence of ancient Jewish states in territory that Jews have traditionally known as Eretz Yisrael for more than 2,000 years and that some Arabs have recently started calling “Filastin”. There is archaeological evidence and coins bearing the name “Yehuda” in Hebrew. bearing witness to the existence of ancient Jewish polities in Eretz Yisrael–it’s not a subject that’s up for debate and you make yourself look foolish by denying it.
But you didn’t seem think that was such great idea when Israelis were banned from entering Old Jerusalem between 1948 and 1967, when Israel and Jordan were n a state of war.
Why the nauseating double standards?
You mean those refugees that were deported?
link to haaretz.com
Nor will you find too many Zionists celebrating the achievements of minorities in Israel.
No, but neo Nazis apparently do.
link to haaretz.com
link to haaretz.com
Perhaps you might care to explain why neo Nazis are welcomed into Israel?
link to jpost.com
link to israelnationalnews.com
Since when is “arduous” a synonym for “not true”?
You are playing games, Mikhael. The totality of your statement was untrue – letter and spirit. You pretend that Israeli immigration policies are comparable to European immigration policies, but nothing could be further from the truth. Family reunification (for those who don’t get to “jump ahead” – also a misrepresentation) is far more difficult in Israel than in Europe, to the point of constituting a fundamental difference. The “temporary measure” denying Palestinians the right to family reunification has been in force for eight years and in appeal for five, although no “emergency” has ever been demonstrated (other than preventing “silent return” – which is hardly a temporary problem for the Israeli ethnocracy). And no, it is not “normal”.
From time to time Israel grants citizenship to a handful of refugees (although it regularly violates its international obligations regarding asylum seekers) – one of the most famous cases being the few hundred Vietnamese “boat people” granted citizenship by the Begin government. The point is that – unlike the West-European countries you evoke – Israel has no standard naturalisation process for non-Jews. A periodical humanitarian gesture (or PR stunt, for the cynical) hardly constitutes a naturalisation policy. This is not “normal”.
That could be applied to most tribes throughout Antiquity who were not considered states.
And as I explained to Jon, non states could easily have met those prerequisites.
Unlike the fabled Israeli state, there is actually a mountain of evidence that points to the existence of the Persian, Babylonian an Roman Empire
They didn’t control territories, collect taxes, mint coins, enact laws?
And yes, there are numerous extrabiblical source references to the existence of ancient Jewish states in territory that Jews have traditionally known as Eretz Yisrael for more than 2,000 years and that some Arabs have recently started calling “Filastin”.
They turned out to be fake didn’t they? In any case, coins throughout antiquity carried the images of deities that never existed, so no, it’s not evidence of the existence of ancient Jewish polities or the fabled Eretz Yisrael.
Eretz Yisrael never existed outside of the imagination.
Mizrahi and Sephardic yes, not the case with Askenazi, who by and large, have no connection to Palestine.
None of the above had any connection to Eretz Yisrael, seeing as it never existed.
Israel is a racial supremacist state that disenfranchised the non-Jews majority in Palestine and privileged the Jewish minority.
Israel is a nation state that has always allowed discriminated against it’s minority citizens and denies equal protection under the law to them. That’s why, as Hery Siegman said, Israel is the only apartheid state in the West.
Mizrahi and Sephardic yes, not the case with Askenazi, who by and large, have no connection to Palestine.
Shingo,
I haven’t really been following this thread, but the above caught my eye, as well as a couple of the references to genetic research. To the best of my knowledge, no specific ties have been found between Mizrahim and Palestinians, beyond general, Middle Eastern markers. To the extent that Ashkenazim have some of the same markers, this could also be explained by possible Turkic origins (e.g. the Khazar theory; See Mazin Qumsiyeh [a Palestinian-American geneticist], Sharing the Land of Canaan). As Sand has pointed out, there is ample evidence of mass conversions to Judaism among the ancestors of today’s Sepharadim/Mizrahim (e.g. Berber and Yemenite tribes).
Of course, even if Mikhael’s assertions were correct, they would in no way justify the theft of Palestine from its modern inhabitants.
I didn’t bring up Kletter v Dulles in a contorted attempt to prove that there was such a thing as an internationally recognized sovereign Palestinian state.
Of course you didn’t, because you would have lost the argument. I specifically brought up the Kletter case because the Jewish Agency had backed Kletter in a pair of lawsuits against the King of England (1940) and the Secretary of State (1950) in an unsuccessful effort to establish that Palestine had not been an independent state. The Agency had considered similar initiatives in the past (see Lauterpacht below).
BTW, the colonial era concept of sovereignty was a circular argument employed by ethnic supremacist chauvinists like yourself. It was a ”racialized” concept of civilization which held that certain peoples in the world occupy a lower position reflected and constituted in the notion that their “sovereignty” was either completely lacking, or at least of an inferior character when compared to that of other peoples. Fortunately, the United States and the other former colonies in the International Conference of American States rejected that concept in the 1890s and reaffirmed the principle that “States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise”. See Article 6 of the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States (1933) . The fact that the Executive branch of the US government had “recognized” the state of Palestine is mentioned in Kletter judgement. That means the United States accepted Palestine as a juridical equal. BTW, here is a much longer list of cases in which the statehood of Palestine was unquestionably recognized by the international community.
Under US and international law, “sovereignty” is strictly a jurisdictional consideration that extends to all foreign states, subdivisions, agencies or instrumentality of a foreign state after it has been “recognized” by another state. For example, the short title of Pubic Law 94-583 is the “Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act of 1976″. It is codified in Title 28 – Judiciary And Judicial Procedure, Part IV – Jurisdiction And Venue, Chapter 97 – Jurisdictional Immunities Of Foreign States. See the definition of “foreign state” in § 1603. Definitions. Title 8, Chapter 12, § 1101 requires that all trusteeships and mandates be treated as separate foreign states. In 2004, the Supreme Court held in Republic of Austria v. Altmann, 541 U.S. 677 (2004) that the FSIA applies retroactively. So, the suggestion that the United States did not internationally recognize Palestine as a sovereign state is completely without merit. The United States treats all foreign states on the basis of sovereign equality.
Prof. Hersh Lauterpacht wrote an advisory opinion in his capacity as counsel to the Jewish Agency for Palestine which cited a 1932 decision of the British Law Lords, Simon and Erleigh. Lauterpacht noted that the British government had already reached the conclusion that Palestine was a “third independent State” for the purposes of the most favored nation clause in its own treaties. He suggested that the matter might be tested in the British and International courts. The UK High Court of Justice ruled that Palestine was a separate foreign state when Kletter was arrested and deported. See the cite to R v. Ketter [aka Kletter] 1940, 1 KB 787 in Kletter v Dulles.
You seem to be suggesting that the so-called limited or restricted “sovereignty” of autonomous colonies like India, Canada, or Australia meant that they were not internationally recognized as states. The Chairman of the UN Ad Hoc Committee on Palestine in 1948 was Justice Evatt of the High Court of Australia. He laid that myth to rest when he said that “sovereignty is neither a question of fact, nor a question of law, but a question that does not arise at all.” What does arise is always a question of whether a given authority may lawfully perform some act within the mandated territory or affecting it. If the United States had needed to pursue a claim under the terms of its commerce agreement, the Law Lord’s decision meant that it would have needed to file a petition with the Courts of Palestine. Dr. Mustafa al Khalidi served in both the Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court of Palestine throughout the 1930s. On many occasions he exercised the jurisdiction of the High Court of Justice and entered judgements against the mandatory government. So, the notion that the Arab and Jewish citizens of Palestine did not exercise sovereign jurisdiction through their jurists is also without merit.
Shingo, You’re really misinformed, to put it mildly.
There have been extensive archaeological excavations, and important discoveries, relating to ancient Israel, in Jerusalem, Massada, Herodion, Caesarea, Zippori , Yodefat, Gamla, and elsewhere. There are coins and there are documents such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and Bar Kokhva letters. We have Jewish historians like Josephus and Philo, Roman historians such as Pliny (the Elder) and Dio Cassius, as well as the Bible, Apocrypha, New Testament, and the Mishna. So the basic information on the Second Temple period is pretty well known, unless you claim that all of the above is part of a gigantic “Zionist conspiracy”, in which case I can’t help you.
Shmuel, Now that we’ve cleared up a misuderstanding on another thread-
I know that we don’t agree politically, but I respect your integrity and knowledge, as do others on this forum. Shingo apparently thinks that he scores anti-Israel points by denying the historical record of 2000 years ago. In my opinion, he just sounds foolish. I would appreciate your input here.
what discovery of the massada? have they discovered something that confirmed the legend of mass suicide?
jon,
As I wrote in my comment on genetics, above, I really haven’t been following this thread. If you are asking whether there is literary and archaeological evidence of an ancient Jewish presence in Palestine, of course there is. If you are asking whether this has any bearing on contemporary Zionist claims to part or all of I/P, of course it doesn’t.
Hey, jon s, the ball’s back in your court, courtesy of Shmuel. We’re waiting for your response to his.
people who a few decades hence would start styling themselves as members of the “Palestinian People”… …some Arabs have recently started calling “Filastin”
Palestine has been in use just as long as the term Israel. For example, Shemot (Exodus) 13:17 says God did not lead them [by] way of the land of the Philistines. Amos Chapter 9:7 says that the Israelites were brought up from Egypt in the same way that the Philistines and Aram were brought respectively from Caphtor and Kir. Josephus, claimed that the Jews were not a maritime people and that they inhabited the inland hill country, not the coastal plain. The Palestinians had already dispatched a delegation of representatives to Great Britain in February of 1922 that styled themselves as “Arab People of Palestine” and members of the “People of Palestine” . A distinct “Palestinian” identity had been developed long before as a result of the Egyptian siege of 1832 (more below).
Reliable sources, including Avigdor Levy, Elli Kohen, Aryeh Shmuelevitz, and Walter Weiker estimate the number of Jews in all of Syria and Palestine at about 20,000 at the beginning of the 18th century. The names of the Jewish communities implied that they did not consider themselves to be members of the same nationality, i.e. Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Romani, Misrahi, etc. The Ottoman authorities also treated them as members of different ethnic and religious sects, i.e. Surgun, Kendi Gelen, & etc. See for example Avigdor Levy, Jews, Turks, Ottomans: A Shared History, Fifteenth Through the Twentieth Century (Modern Jewish History), Syracuse Univ Pr, 2003. You keep mentioning that some Palestinians migrated into the area. If being an Ashkenazi (German) born in the United States of America doesn’t prevent you from also being a Jewish and Israeli national, then why does it matter where a “Palestinian” or “Arab” national was born? The use of that deceptive narrative by Zionists has been fully discussed in:
*Rosemary E. Shinko, “Discourses of Denial: Silencing the Palestinians, Delegitimizing Their Claims,” Journal of International Affairs 58.1 (2004);
*Baruch Kimmerling, Politicide: Ariel Sharon’s War Against the Palestinians, Verso, 2003;
*Marcelo Svirsky, “The Desire for terra nullius and the Zionist-Palestinian Conflict,” in Paul Patton and Simone Bignall (Eds.) Deleuze and the Postcolonial, Edinburgh University Press 2009.
*Lawrence Davidson, “Historical Ignorance and Popular Perception: the Case of U.S. Perceptions of Palestine, 1917,” Middle East Policy3.2 (1994): pages 125-148;
*Joyce Dalsheim, Settler nationalism, collective memories of violence and the ‘uncanny other’, Social Identities, Volume 10, Issue 2 2004 , pages 151 – 170;
The 19th century British Foreign Office Confidential Prints FO 424 and early 20th century Arab Bureau Papers FO 882 relate that the origins of the Husayni (aka al-Husseini), Khalidi, Nashashibi, ‘Abd al-Hadi, Tuqan families, and the many clans and tribes – including the Beersheba Bedouin – pre-date the first Zionist Aliya and that all of the groups had been settled there for centuries. Most of the inhabitants today can trace their ancestry to one or more of the families named in the 19th century British reports. Hashem died and was buried in Gaza 1300 years ago. His Husayni descendants moved back to the region from Allepo in the 1600s. By the early years of the 18th century the post of Mufti of Jerusalem was held by ‘Abd al-Qadir ibn Karim al-Din Husayni. He died leaving no male heir and the Hanafi mufti-ship passed on to the Jaralla and Alami families. But, ‘Abd al-Qadir’s female descendants retained the family name and their claim to sharifian (i.e. Hashemite) lineage. The notable members of that particular branch have included Yasser Arafat and his uncle, the Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini.
Zionists always mention a poorly-defined region called “Eretz Yisrael”. The Torah suggests that Moses died somewhere in Transjordan because he was not permitted to enter the Promised Land. In fact, Gideon Bigger says that’s why Lloyd George used the Jordan river as the border – because Joshua and the children of Israel crossed it on their way into the land of Israel. Of course, there are other passages in the scriptures which say that all of the land between the River of Egypt and the Euphrates was included in the Promised Land or Eretz Yisrael. Judea was only a small fraction of this “Greater Eretz Yisrael”. It is a little known fact that the Sultan adopted a statute which provided for the immediate and free settlement on the best lands available, for groups of Jews between 200 and 250 families, everywhere in Greater Eretz Yisrael, except for Palestine. In 1882 the American Consul advised a group of Romanian Jews who had requested settlement in the “Pashlik of Palestine” about the ordinance and summed-up by saying “In conclusion, there is nothing to prevent all the Israelites on the earth from settling in Asiatic Turkey. They shall not settle in Palestine-that is the only prohibition. The Zionists never seriously considered settlement in the portions of Eretz Yisrael beyond the boundaries of Palestine.
Joseph Mary Nagle Jeffries, “Palestine: The Reality”, Longmans 1939, reprinted by Hyperion Press, 1975, explains that Palestine was part of the Arab homeland called “Bilad al Arab” or “Arabistan” (page 4). The ‘Arabistan Ordusu’, the provincial Ottoman Army for Arabia, was originally based at Damascus, and was put in charge of Cilicia, Syria (including Lebanon and Palestine), Iraq, and the southern Arabian Peninsula. see Stanford J. Shaw, Ezel Kural Shaw, History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, Cambridge University Press, 1977, page 85; Caesar E. Farah, The Politics of Interventionism in Ottoman Lebanon, 1830-1861, I.B.Tauris, 2000, page 417. The claim that “Palestine” is only a small unimportant part of Arabia is tantamount to the claim that “Judea” was only small unimportant part of Eretz Israel.
Muhammad Ali was an Albanian mercenary who became the King of Egypt. Palestinian nationalism began long before the first Zionist Aliya when his son, Ibrahim Pasha laid siege to Palestine (in 1832) and encountered massive resistance. King Farouk of Egypt was a descendant of the Albanians and one of Napoleon’s Colonel’s. Most Egyptians consider themselves to be descendants of the ancient Pharaohs who have adopted Arab culture. Egypt lay outside the jurisdiction of the Provincial Army of Arabistan. Egypt was not part of the Arab homeland discussed by the Sharif Hussein and McMahon. It is somewhat ironic then that Egypt and King Farouk assumed the leadership of the newly formed League of Arab States. The Convention of July 1840 offered a grant to Muhammed Ali, during his natural life, of the government of the region described alternately as “Southern Syria” or “Palestine” or the Pashalik of Acre. See Index to the executive documents of the House of Representatives for the second session of the forty-fifth Congress, 1879-’80 page 1019.
you really have no leg to stand on when you make your nonsensical and absurd claim that no states existed in antiquity.
And yet for most of the 20th century you could not earn an advanced degree in political science without learning that the modern international system of nation-states emerged only after the Peace of Westphalia. The provisions for international supervision and protections for religious minority groups built-in to the “Westphalian System” were innovative limits on sovereignty that had no earlier parallels. It was a necessary precursor to the Age of Enlightenment and the movement to emancipate the Jews from the ghettos.
I lived in Greece for a little over two years. Greece is a great country and Greeks are generally terrific people, but even the native-born, Greek-speaking Romaniote Jews are not viewed as true Greeks, even though their ancestors have lived there for over a thousand years. It’s a very homogenous society–most of the population is ethnically Greek–there are a few well-defined and easily identifiable ethnic minorities (Albanian-speakers, Turkish speakers, Jews, Roma Gypsies, Slavic speakers, Vlachs–and a small (but increasing) number of immigrants from the Third World and people from other countries who have established residence and obtained citizenship in Greece through marriage or other means. These people may hold Greek citizenships, and belong to any one of the aforementioned minorities, but they are not considered Greek Hellenes–and there’s nothing wrong with that!
As I stated before, the USA is not an ethnic nation-state, although obviously you know that it has a history of Anglo-Saxon nativism that endorsed precisely that view from colonial times to the present day. The collective sense of American nationhood is supposed to come from shared civic values, not a shared ancestry. The USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand are one kind of liberal democratic state–and many other countries exist in today’s world such as Israel, Greece, Japan, the Republic of Korea (South Korea), Germany, Estonia (to throw out a few examples) fall into the second category of of liberal democracies—nation-states where the sense of collective nationhood is based on belonging to a common majority ethnicity. There is nothing wrong with either form–a country like Greece should not be like the USA and the USA should not try to be like Greece.
Jews are used to being regarded that way. I am very fortunate though to also hold Israeli citizenship, and indeed every Jew in the USA is very fortunate that Israeli exists in the eventuality that their fellow Americans suddenly decide that they’re not “real Americans”
You made a sweeping generalization that Jews were “often treated better than the native masses by the ruling class that were of the same ethnic/religious background as the natives” and I replied quite accurately that it depends when and where. That’s not hemming and hawing.
Citizen , I don’t exactly know what you’re expecting. Do I have to “prove” well-known historical facts ? If Shingo or anyone else has some radical, alternative version, it should be up to him to prove it. I must admit that I’ve almost felt like I have an unfair advantage in this discussion since the topic is sort of in my professional field. I teach Second Temple history.
Shmuel is , I’m sure, familiar with the history. We differ on present-day issues.
Jon s, your “textbook definition” of a state also characterizes, for example, a pre-state Chiefdom. The modern concept of a state came with the Treaty Of Westphalia. Besides, antiquity is not relevant to the state of Israel, created in 1948 AD. Israel’s definition of a nation state differs from all other countries as its concept of a nation state is based on the Ethnoreligious group (Judaism) rather than solely on ethnicity, while the ancient mother language of the Jews, Hebrew, was revived as a unifying bond between them as a national and official language.
jon s, your “well-known facts” are much disputed; it’s not like you are talking about ancient Egypt where the facts regarding it are comparatively undisputed. Yes, you differ from Shmuel in that he sees no relevance in your focus on disputed antiquity, or on the notion of what constitutes a state back then, before the word itself was invented–because your said focus has nothing to do with the current deplorable policies of the state of Israel founded in 1948.
jon s,
There have indeed been extensive archaeological excavations, but very few discoveries, and any relating to ancient Israel have been incocnlusive at best.
Come of the coins I believe were revealed to be fakes. The Dead Sea Scrolls simply prove the religiuos texts date back a long time.
As explained already, Josephus was more of a mystic than a historian. The New Testament and Bible are fiction.
I never disputed that the the Romans conquered Jerusalem, only that there was no Jewish state entitity. Like I pointed out, the first and secodn temple’s would appear to be the only histocial structures that left no remnants or evidence of their existence.
I can understand your frustration at being forced to teach a subject upn whcih there is no physical evidence.
It must be a source fo great frustratrion therefore, that there is little or no archeological evidence linking to that period.
Do you get challenged about that often Jon?
The same can be said of most European stated with long histories. These were by and large, the results of trbial affiliations that pre dated the current borders, but they are nothing like the 60 year old ethnic segregation that Israel imposed from the beginning. Italy for example, is host to many such groups with dialects that vary considerably. As in Greece, there is no one definitive basis of ethnicity.
That’s because it is a constitutional republic that was created to explicitly reject any such notion. The fact that the state is considerably younger than European states and almost entirely founded by European immigrants, also meant that there has been no definitive ethnicity ever established. For that matter, the make up of the population is forever changing – though unlike Israel, the US has never considered this a demographic threat.
States like Greece, Japan, the Republic of Korea (South Korea), Germany and Estonia have a strong ethnic identity due to the fact that their age and the fact that none were created by immigration. Nervelessness, while there is a majority ethnicity, nationhood is not likes to ethnicity by design as it is with Israel.
Israel does not fall into any category other than being an artificial ethnocentric construct that was designed from the beginning with segregation and ethnic cleansing in mind.
What you mean is, every Jew in the USA is very fortunate that Israeli exists in the eventuality that their fellow Americans suddenly decide that they want to emulate Israel.
You tried to make the argument but never presented a coherent refutation.
No, if your message is that the occupation is wrong, you should boycott the occupation.
There is no “occupation” to boycott, only its perpetrators, who are Israeli and the Israel itself.
My frustration is in not getting through to you. The basic facts of the Second Temple history are not in dispute, certainly not more than Egyptian history, and are firmly founded in the archaeological record.
I don’t know which fake coins you’re referring to. In general fake “antiques” are a worldwide phenomenon. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t genuine, scientifically certified, Second Temple coins.
Josephus – a mystic? Wrong. His writings are indispensable for trying to understand the period. Of course when he writes on matters in which he had a personal interest or score to settle, you need to take it “with a grain of salt”.
If you ever visit Israel, see the museums and historical and archaeological sights. Look me up and I’ll be happy to accompany you.
jon s, what “basic facts” of the Second Temple history are not in dispute? Biblical references are not facts. Ditto re Josephus’s narrative history; his writings are famous for being especially agenda-driven. Further, there is much inconsistency in the full array of all such “facts.”
Any distant mirror is just that. Speculation is not the same as standing before an Egyptian pyramid. Or the ruins at the site of 9/11 in the face of past modern media documentation the twin towers existed. Now, that contemporary incident, which happened in our electronic media age, as to why, how, and as to who all was involved in making it happen–is hotly disputed. Yet, you, jon s, teach antique history as if its fact? Meh.
Anyway, is this what you teach your students?:
Antique/biblical references to/about the Second Temple (Excluding Early Christianity):
link to abu.nb.ca
Wikipedia’s statement on archeological evidence for the Temple in Jerusalem: “Archaeological excavations have found one hundred ritual immersion pools surrounding the Temple Mount. This is strong evidence that this area was considered of the utmost holiness in ancient times and could not possibly have been a secular area.” link to en.wikipedia.org
The companion link defining/describing such pools: link to en.wikipedia.org
While I have not disputed that the Second Temple existed, the history is largely based on myth. Unlike Egyptian history, there are very few artifacts and archeological pieces of evidence in existence today, made all the more mysterious by the fact that there is an abudance of such evidence from civlizations that preceeded and followed the First Second Temple periods.
Perhaps but suggesting that he was being credible when he was not writing on “matters in which he had a personal interest or score(s) to settle” is a poor argument.
Like I said, there are plenty of archaeological sights, but they have turned up precsious little evidence. The City of David project is an archaeological sight, but it happens tobe a Canaanite structure, not a Jewish one.
What archaeological sights exidt that are explicitly Jewish and not Roman or otherwise that are allegded to have been utilized by the Jewish civlizations?
It’s tiresome to repeat myself, but whether or not the word “Zionism” was coined 110 years ago is irrelevant. It doesn’t alter the fact that modern political Zionism took one of the central tenets of Jewish religion, i.e., that Jews collectively constitute one nation and have their home in Eretz Yisrael into a goal-oriented, programmatic movement to establish a modern state (or at the very least, a “national home”) for the Jewish nation.
Whether or not there are or were individual Jews opposed to the idea of modern political Zionism and who declare themselves as “non-Zionist,” i.e., who reject(ed) the goal-oriented, programmatic movement to establish a modern nation-state for the Jewish people, doesn’t change the fact that the roots of Zionism inhere in every aspect of Judaism. Judaism simply does not and cannot exist without the premise of a Jewish nation and a Jewish homeland in Eretz Yisrael. It is not simply a theology with doctrines based around mankind’s relationship to the divine (as other religions are) –but the national cult of a specific nation existing in history–the Jewish nation.
Again. Every single Israeli government since Rabin since 1993 has explicitly endorsed a negotiated settlement based on the idea of Israel making territorial concessions.
Whatever. All I know is that the “apartheid wall” has reduced suicide attacks in Jerusalem by 99% and I feel much more at ease with the idea of my twin daughters riding the bus to school without some maniac detonating himself and his fellow passengers. By the way, not a single “new settlement” since Oslo has been built (the Accords, by the way, do not specifically ban new settlement construction), although already existing settlements have seen new construction. Unauthorized outposts have been dismantled by the Israeli government. We don’t consider building in Jerusalem any part of our capital to be a “settlement” and we’ll continue to do so.
I see you can’t stay on topic, but no, Jerusalem, where the Knesset, Prime Minister’s office and the Israeli Cabinet meets is the capital of Israel.
False. The Lehi Group (under Shamir’s leadership) formed the commando unit of the Haganah and were under Ben Gurion’s command. . Ben Gurion never considered Bernadotte’s proposals, indeed, he rejected it as a matter of principal.
Ben Gurion accepted Bernadotte’s June 1948 truce recommendations, as Israel was in a weak military position at the time. His July 1948 peace plan would have forced Israel to give up all the Negev, all of Jerusalem, give the Jordanians access to Haifa, and would have restricted Israel to an enclave in part of Western Galilee and the area around Tel Aviv–a fraction of the patchwork borders that UNSCOP allotted to the proposed Jewish state. The first to reject this offer were the Arab belligerents–even this fraction was unacceptable to them.
Subsequent to the Bernadotte assassination, Lehi was disbanded. All of Etzel, Lehi, PALMACH, Haganah and their members all had to recognize the authority of the central government and consent to be placed under the command structure of the newly formed IDF. That’s how a responsible government takes charge and builds the institutions of a state.
In the initial stage of the war following Israel’s Declaration of Independence (and during the fighting that broke out after November 1947 leading up to the 5th of Iyyar 5708 (aka May 14, 1948) , when Israel declared its independence) the Yishuv was at a clear disadvantage in terms of weaponry, although the situation had changed dramatically over the course of a year’s fighting with the acquisition of smuggled-in weapons. The claim that the British willingly gave bases to the Israelis is also patently false. In the period between the UN vote of November 19 1947 and May 14 1948 (the date by which the British had agreed to quit the country), the British did their best to prevent the Jews from taking over bases and destroyed as much usable weaponry and supplies as they could before their own hasty departure–the “spare parts” you refer to had to be repaired and salvaged. For instance, the strategic Tel HaShomer base on the Jaffa-Lod airport road (today housing BAKUM, the main recruitment center of the IDF) was occupied by Arab forces as the British were evacuating and a pitched battle was fought for control of it. There were some cases, though, such as Jerusalem’s Schneller Compound, a former German-run orphanage that served as a British army base, where Haganah managed through bribing the British commanding officer to get advance notification of precisely when the British would be abandoning it and managed to occupy it before the Arabs. Official British policy was non-interference and getting their personnel back home safely and quickly, the reality was that although individual commanders could have their palms greased (e.g., the commander at the Schneller compound), they did their best to prevent the Yishuv’s forces from taking control of their bases prior to May 1948, and once Israeli independence was declared, British officers commanded King Abdullah’s army. Don’t forget all the former British army bases, spare parts, government buildings and paved roads (did you expect the British to unpave the roads?) that they left in the West Bank for the Jordanians to inherit and take over.
“the roots of Zionism inhere in every aspect of Judaism. Judaism simply does not and cannot exist without the premise of a Jewish nation and a Jewish homeland in Eretz Yisrael. It is not simply a theology with doctrines based around mankind’s relationship to the divine (as other religions are) –but the national cult of a specific nation existing in history–the Jewish nation.”
So Australian Jews are foreigners in the country in which they were born and brought up? They should never be allowed to become Members of Parliament, since that is only permitted for people whose sole nationality is Australian? They should regard Israel and not Australia as their homeland?
If that really is what Judaism teaches, and what Jewishness is, then it is an evil doctrine, and the sooner we can expunge it, the better it will be for everyone And that includes both those who are now Jews, and the rest of us.
They didn’t “attempt” to invade — they invaded. Syrian forces penetrated well into the areas of the former British Mandate to be designated a Jewish state according to the UNSCOP Partition Plan, battles were fought at Deganya, which was destroyed during fighting. A decisive battle was also fought between Israelis and Egyptians at Yad Mordekhai. The argument that somebody here will undoubtedly make that the only reason the Egyptian forces attacked Yad Mordekhai, which fell within the boundaries of the proposed Arab state, was to defend that proposed Palestinian Arab state and they had no intent in any Israeli territory within the Partition Plan falls apart when you consider that Israel and Egypt also fought extensively in and around Bir ‘Asluj and Revivim, areas clearly designated to fall within the boundaries of the Jewish state. How is that Egypt and Israel engaged in decisive battles within Israeli territory if no Arab army had any intent to invade Israel?
You guess wrong, again. There is no comparison and it takes a sick mind to see any similarity. Among the indignities that Jews in Germany had to face under the Nuremberg Laws but prior to them being subject to extermination under the Final Solution were being dismissed from professions and the universities, were forced to sew patches into their clothes identifying them as Jews, were forbidden by law from sitting on public benches,having their businesses boycotted; all in the pre-war years and before eventually facing the death camps along with their fellow Jews from across occupied Europe after the war began. There is nothing even remotely similar to the situation of Arabs in Israel who, yes, face some discrimination and casual bigotry, but can and do succeed in Israel. Nevertheless, if Arab citizens of Israel persist in seeing themselves as second-class, sure, they will stay second-class. If they don’t see themselves as victims but seize the opportunities for social, economic and political advancement that are available to them in Israel, and take advantage of the privileges of Israeli citizenship and exploit their own talents to the fullest, they can succeed wildly in Israel. Sadly, many Arab-Israeli leaders and Knesset members in Israel, of course, have also succeeded wildly in Israel by establishing political careers based on being professional victims and encouraging members of their communities to see themselves as permanently second-class.
Israel doesn’t define itself as a theocracy, because it is not a theocracy. A theocracy is a state where religious law is the supreme source of civil law and where religious leaders run all aspects of government. Most of Israel’s citizens are not strictly religious, and with the exception of Begin, who was a traditional Jew (though not strictly observant), all of its prime ministers to date have been resolutely secular in outlook.
In fact, Henry Sickman’s slanderous assertions are a non sequitur that do not prove your first point.
In strict contravention of Article VIII of the 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Jordan, which provided for”free access to the Holy Places and cultural institutions and use of the cemetery on the Mount of Olives,” Israeli Jews were forbidden from visiting the Western Wall during the entire 19-year period Jordan exercised control over the Old City. Moreover, foreign Jewish visitors were routinely asked about their religion by Jordanian authorities and Jordan reserved the right to ban Jews from visiting, and often did so (similar to Saudi Arabia’s policy today). No organized Jewish prayer was permitted at the Western Wall. One prominent foreign Jewish visitor for whom an exception was made was the outspoken anti-Israel Reform rabbi, Elmer Berger. He was presented with a Torah scroll that had been plundered from one of the synagogues in the Old City in the early 1960s. Instead of attempting to return it to the congregation that it rightfully belonged to, what that point in time were located on the Israeli-held part of the city, he donated it to a Reform Jewish congregation in the US.
It’s fair to demand that Israel be held to the same standards as other states in similar situations. Other refugee problems have been resolved through compensation of the injured parties, and there has been no suggestion that those situations can be resolved only through a “right of return” for those refugees and their descendants .
Shingo, did you ever take any standardized tests that measured reading comprehension ability. I’m sure you did very poorly if you did. I stated quite clearly that discussing “Palestinians” as if they ever constituted a distinct nationality in the past is clearly anachronistic–it is simply false to do so and projects modern-day nomenclature on a group that did not consistently use that term to describe themselves even as recently as 60 years ago. If there is a group of Arabs that has recently adopted the name “Palestinians” to describe themselves today, that is certainly their right–the name has been up for grabs ever since the 31-year British Mandate for Palestine ended in 1948–and the Jews reverted the name of part of the country to its historic Yisrael.
Sand’s thesis is easily refutable, in large part on the basis of genetic testing which has revealed that almost every single Diaspora Jewish group shows a clear consanguinity to every other Diaspora Jewish group that it does not share with the non-Jews of the host country. The only people who accept Sand’s thesis are those who have a political motivation to do so.
Look, Shmulik, it’s very simple. When I stated that non-Jewish foreigners can and do gain Israeli citizenship through a variety of channels, I was telling the truth, whether it’s “arduous” or not. I pointed out, quite reasonably, that it can’t be both “arduous” and “untrue.”
There is no one uniform European policy for immigration. Immigration to Greece or Portugal is quite different than immigration to the UK or Switzeland, for instance.
There were no openly Jewish troops in the Nazi forces, although there were German soldiers of partial Jewish heritage (known as “Mischlinge” under the Nazi racial law) who did everything they could to hide their family background from the authorities (in most cases, they were themselves completely unaware of their own family background). In some very few cases, their Jewish background was discovered and “erased” by the authorities because they were deemed valuable to the Reich. Bryan Mark Riggs, who wrote the book on the subject, “guesstimates” that up to 150,000 Germans in the Wehrmacht has some Jewish descent (in many cases a single great-grandparent). There were also some Southern whites with hidden black ancestry who fought for the Confederacy in the US Civil War, such as Randall Lee Gibson. Are you stupid enough to believe that bit of trivia means that there was a black alliance with the Confederacy?
As for Lehi’s contact with Nazi Germany proposing an alliance, you are talking about an alliance that never came about, proposed by a fringe element within a fringe group that never commanded much support within the Yishuv, in contrast to the Mufti, arguably, the main leader of the Arab community in the British Mandate, who quite successfully formed an active alliance with the Nazis. In any case, I was answering Mooser’s snarky comment expressing doubt about there having been Arab violence against Jews in Europe. You added nothing to that exchange.
Judaism simply does not and cannot exist without the premise of a Jewish nation and a Jewish homeland in Eretz Yisrael.
that is about as far as i got. you’re so full of crap. maybe even i know more about judaism than you do.
discussing “Palestinians” as if they ever constituted a distinct nationality in the past is clearly anachronistic–it is simply false to do so and projects modern-day nomenclature
please link to a pre 18th century text referencing jews as a distinct nationality.
thanks
I stated that non-Jewish foreigners can and do gain Israeli citizenship through a variety of channels
but can non jewish foreigners become israeli nationals?
no, they cannot.
The real Australians are the Aborigines. As a non-Australian, it’s not for me to comment on what a real Australian is, but I should think anyone of whatever ethnicity who holds citizenship in that country and affirms his or her civic duty there is as “real” as anyone else. Having an attachment to an ancestral country of origin does not preclude being loyal to the country of citizenship.
I think I stated very clearly that Jews who live in Australia, the US, Canada, etc…if they choose to and wish to live there should fulfill their civic duties in the countries where they hold citizenship and that in no way should diminish their attachment and support for their ancestral homeland either. There are many Greeks in Australia who have very strong feelings for Greece and often retain citizens of that country. I don’t think that should make them any less Australian. It is no different for Aussie Jews. If they choose to make their home in Australia, they must be loyal to that country, but they have the same rights as any other hyphenated Australian (i.e., an Irish-Australian, Maltese-Australian, a Greco-Australian, a Sri Lankan-Australian) to cherish a connection with their ancestral country and maintain and nurture in their children a sense of connection to those countries. There should be no controversy about any of this, and indeed, I think it’s accepted with equanimity for any of the other immigrant groups.
Genetic testing has indeed confirmed common origins for most of the world’s Jewish communities in the Middle East. Migration routes and movements of Jewish populations are also well known to historians.
Again. Plenty of Israeli Jews have dark skin (including yours truly). Plenty of Arabs have light skin. Skin color has ZERO to do with the Arab-Israeli dispute. Unless you speak Arabic flawlessly and fluently with no accent and have an Arab name, probably you can’t pass for an Arab, no matter what skin color you have.
Actually they can, through a variety of channels – marriage, work, etc.
“The king and queen issued the Alhambra Decree less than three months after the surrender of Granada. In it, Jews were accused of trying “to subvert their holy Catholic faith and trying to draw faithful Christians away from their beliefs.” These measures were not new in Europe.[4]
Some Jews were even only given four months and ordered to convert to Christianity or leave the country. Under the edict, Jews were promised royal “protection and security” for the effective three-month window before the deadline. They were permitted to take their belongings with them – except “gold or silver or minted money”.
The punishment for any Jew who did not convert or leave by the deadline was death. The punishment for a non-Jew who sheltered or hid Jews was the confiscation of all belongings and hereditary privileges.”
link to en.wikipedia.org
Mikhael’s response to the fact that the Israseli settlements are a blatent land grab:
“Whatever. All I know is that the “apartheid wall” has reduced suicide attacks in Jerusalem by 99% and I feel much more at ease with the idea of my twin daughters riding the bus to school without some maniac detonating himself and his fellow passengers. By the way, not a single “new settlement” since Oslo has been built (the Accords, by the way, do not specifically ban new settlement construction), although already existing settlements have seen new construction. Unauthorized outposts have been dismantled by the Israeli government. We don’t consider building in Jerusalem any part of our capital to be a “settlement” and we’ll continue to do so.”
Continued expansion of Israeli settlements includes:
• The establishment of new settlement outposts;
• New construction at existing settlements;
• The confiscation and clearing of land for settlement expansion;
• The confiscation and clearing of land for new bypass roads;and
• The uprooting of olive trees for settlement expansion and bypass roads.
Since Oslo, new settlement activity has about doubled settlement population growth: link to en.wikipedia.org
The whole world except Israel is on record that the Israeli settlements are illegal under international law; additionally,
the US says the settlements are an obstacle to any peace process.
See the Wikipedia article on the settlements, which lays out the arguments pro and con.
Jews have regarded themselves as a nation apart and been so regarded for most of our long history.
I think every country only offers one passport. However, in the Israeli context “nationality” and “citizenship” are two separate categories–just like in the former USSR, one could be a Soviet citizen but be considered to be of Russian, Georgian, Ukrainian, Moldavian or Jewish nationality (“Jewish” was regarded as a nationality in the USSR.) In Israel one can be an Israeli citizen and be of Jewish nationality, Arab Muslim nationality, Druze nationality, Arab Christian nationality, Circassian nationality, or “other”.
Germany was preferred by some Russian Jews fleeing the chaos of the failed USSR in the early 1990s at a time when Israel’s economy was in shock from absorbing all of them at once, and not long after Israel had been battered by Iraqi SCUDs. It wasn’t a hard choice to make for people who were raised with very little Jewish cultural awareness. Anti-immigrant sentiment nevertheless remains high in Germany, don’t delude yourself.
You’re embarrassing yourself again, kiddie. Besides the fact that Jews have referred to themselves collectively as “am Yisrael” (the nation of Israel) for millennia long before 1948, “Israelite” and “Hebrew” have also been common synonyms for “Jew”. Indeed, it was considered rude in many circles to say “Jew” and “Israelite” was perceived as more genteel and politically correct. Like your absurd claim that there is no evidence for any predecessor Jewish states in Eretz Yisrael prior 1948, your assertion here is demonstrably false. Major Jewish communal organizations existed using the name “Hebrew” and Israel” long prior to the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. A few examples: Le Consistoire Central Israélite de France, which was created by Napoleon in 1808 to oversee Jewish affairs in France, the Israelitische Kultusgemeinde Wien, founded in 1852 in Vienna as a communal organization in that city, the Alliance Israélite Universelle, a French-Jewish educational organization that had its origins educating Jews in the Middle East in the 19th century, the The American Israelite, a Jewish newspaper founded in Cincinnati in the 1850s, the Young Men’s and Young Women’s Hebrew Associations , the Union of American Hebrew Congregations.
Of course, I was answering eljay’s assertion that “Israeli” is the nationality of Israel, and “Jewish” is not, when he/she stated “I cannot become Jewish by moving to Israel. I can become Israeli. That is the nationality of Israel. “Jewish” is not.
If he/she insists that only “Israeli” can be a nationality (thereby conflating nationality and citizenship) and not “Jewish”, then conferring “Israeli” status to non-Jews arguably can confer a pseudo-”Jewish” status in a national/civic (if not a religious) sense, and that people not of Jewish ancestry can become integrated into the “Israeli nationality”, and as I have amply demonstrated “Israelite” is nothing but another word for “Jew”
No it’s not, because prior to the inbention of Zionism (110 years ago), there was no plitical sectarian movement to establish a homeland for Jews. Zionism (be it modern or old) is a sectarian nationalistic movement that by it’s very definition, had no did nothing to do with relgion. In fact, as Shlomo Sand revealed, the idea that Jews collectively constitute one nation is itself also a recent pehnomenan. Hertzl’s diaried did not even make mentionof Eretz Yisrael.
Thus, in no way did the roots of Zionism have anything to do with Judaism, other than provide a setarian state in which to allow Jews to afford a cloistered existence. Judaism existed for thuosands of years without a Jewish nation and a Jewish homeland, wheteher is the fictional “Eretz Yisrael”, otback Australia, Tasmania (Australia) or Uganda. Though hasbrats struggle to overcome the contradictions, a sectarian nationalist movement and religiojs doctrine and a contradiction.
That’s not the same thing as endoring a two state solution, somrthign that Netenyhau and Sharon either both opposed, or both ensured would never eventuate.
False again. 3000 Palestinians are able to circumvent the wall evry day, so any detemined suicide bomber would have no problem is carrying out any such attack. The end of suicide atatcks was the result of Hams declaring an end to suicide attacks in 2006.
As for your twin daughters riding the bus to school is safety, evidently you have no regard for eh twin daughers of parents in the occupied territoroes suffering an even worse fete.
Very funny. At least you’ve got a sense of humor. And while the Accords, did not specifically ban new settlement construction, the Road Map, which Israel sifned and ratified in 2002 most certainly did. Any unauthorized outposts that have been dismantled by the Israeli government spring up again almost immediately, while larger onesare are allowed to flourish. What is also continuing at a rapid pace is the program of ethnic cleansing, home demolitions and murder of Palestinians (at a rate of 1 every 2 days).
We don’t consider building in Jerusalem any part of our capital to be a “settlement” and we’ll continue to do so.
We (the rest of the world) don’t consider Jerusalem to be your capital. Not even the US.
No, they meet in Jerusalem.
False. He never accepted Bernadotte’s proposal to allow refugees to return. Far from being in a weak military position at the time, by the beginning of 1948, the he Haganah became an army of 35,000, plus 10,000 more in commando units (ie Palmach, Irgun and Stern Gangs). When Britain’s General officer commanding in Palestine, General John Darcy, was asked about the military situation crafty the pull-out of the British forces, he said:
“The Haganah will take over all of Palestine. They could hold it against the entire Arab world.”
What’s more, the Zionist forces had the British bases and camps handed to them by the British. They even left their weapons, arms, tanks and vehicles and munition to the Zionist forces. This included 2,700 government buildings, 50 train stations, 3,000 km of paved roads, a number of sea ports, and 37 military camps filled with weapons and space parts.
False. The Jordanians had alrady asured the British that they were never going to enter the Jewish part of Palestine. Israel rejected Bernadotteds plan regardless, which is why they assassinated him. How ironic that Zionists murdered Bernadotted, yet in your derranged ramblings, it was the Arabs who were belligerents.
Nice try but fail. In 1945 Chain Wiesman proposed that in order to speed up the withdrawal of the British from Palestine, the Haganah should collaborate with the Stern and Irgun to achieve this goal. The Stern and Irgun were already under the authority of the central government, seeing as they were the commando unit of teh Haganah aka IDF.
False. In the initial stage of the war began in November 1947, when Zionist forces went on the attack adn began expelling Palestinians and destroying Palestinian villages.
Also false. As General John Darcy, explained the Haganah were set to take control over all of Palestine and were aklrady in a position to hold it against the entire Arab world. The weapons did not need to be smuggled in. Ben Gurion persuaded the Jewish community in America to pay for the purchase of arms manufacturing machinery, so that the Hanaganah could produce it’s own weapons. The British had alrrady smashed thr arab revolt, disarmed the Palestinians and driven out the Palestinian leadership a decade earlier.
There is no dispite that the British habded over the bases, weapons, tanks etc to the Israelis. The British ahd no reason to prevent Jews from taking over bases or for destroying weaponry left behind. The “spare parts” were left behind in pristine order. No Arab forces occupied the Tel HaShomer base, becasue the British had denied the entery of the Arab forces into Palestine. The Zionist forces moved into the bases within 24 hours of them being evacuated by the British.
There were no British army bases, spare parts, government buildings and paved road in the West Bank.
So you admit you have a low attention span?
Really? Why do you think so? I’ve been resolutely and openly agnostic since my early 20s, but the first half of my life was spent in an assortment of yeshivot on two continents. I still know the contents of the various Siddurim backwards and forwards, pretty much every prayer service, including the Grace after Meals makes numerous and explicit mention of Jews returning to Israel. Now, like I said, many religious Jews have historically disavowed the modern political Zionist program of establishing a modern state in the here-and-now (some stubborn elements within Orthodox Judaism still reject it), nevertheless, even modern political Zionism’s most vociferous opponents within religious Judaism would never deny the centrality of Eretz Yisrael and Jewish peoplehood, core tenets of Zionism. The only difference is that Orthodox Jewish “anti-Zionists” believe that a Jewish national revival will not come until a future Messianic Age, but all those black-hatted men in the Neturei Karta group who demonstrate for Palestinian rights, denounce the State of Israel and meet with Hamas and make statements that “Judaism and Zionism are diametrically opposed” also believe that one day God will sweep out all the heathen Gentiles and reestablish the Jewish kingdom and rebuild the Temple when the time is ripe. The only form of “Judaism” that negated the centrality of Eretz Yisrael ws 19th century Reform Judaism in Germany and the Americas, in a they excised most of the ancient traditional prayers from the liturgy dealing with the Land of Israel and also translated almost all of the prayers into German and English, moved the day of rest to Saturday, basically they recast Judaism as High Church Protestantism without Jesus. That’s basically the only kind of Judaism that existed without the idea of Eretz Yisrael and Jewish peoplehood, and it didn’t last long.
Then surly regurgitating fictional notionsHeretz Yisrael (which never existed) must be more so. Jews did not consistently use terms like Israelis or Hebrew to describe themselves even as recently as 60 years ago. If there is a group of Jews that has recently adopted the name “Israelis” to describe themselves today, that is certainly their right–the name has been up for grabs ever since the 31-year British Mandate for Palestine ended in 1948–and the Jews reverted the name of part of the country to its fictional Yisrael.
No, Sand’s thesis is not easily refutable, which is why his critics don’t actualyl tackle his arguments, but accuse him of lacking empathy for Jews, or fornot respeting the histocial narative that he aims to refute. It tuerns out that genetic testing does NOT reveal any conclusive connection to Palestine.
Not really. They are all similar in regards to the fact the religionand ethnicity are completely irrelevant to the process.
The Mufti commanded no one in Palestine, seeing as he was exiled in 1937. As for the Lehi, they were over 10,000 and no fringe group, but played a central role alongside the Haganah.
As for Lehi’s contact with Nazi Germany proposing an alliance, the fact it didn’t happen wasn’t for lack of trying by the Zionist forces.
If Israel was held to the same standard Jews/Israelis have demanded from the non-Jewish world, where has the Palestinians’ right of return been honored, and for how long now have the Palestinians been receiving reparations from Israel?
You’re right, Mikhael, that’s why that Arab guy was hauled into an Israeli court charged with rape because he didn’t tell the Jewish gal he was an Arab and allowed her to assume he was Jewish. Skin color was not an issue.
Who was the Israeli prime minister before 1948? Prior to 1948, was the area in question called “the Palestine Mandate,” or “the Israeli Mandate?” Did somebody pull that pre-1948 name for the region out of their tukas, or what?
If it is indeed the case that Australian law states that one cannot be a dual citizen and be a member of Parliament, then nobody holding a citizenship other than Australian should be a member of Parliament. If a Jewish citizen of Australia regards himself as belonging to the Jewish nationality or ethnicity (which you are mistakenly conflating with citizenship) but has no citizenship other than Australian, then he or she should have the same right as any other Australian to stand for Parliament, and likewise, the same right to nurture a connection with their ancestral country of origin. While I agree that it may be inappropriate to be involved in politics of one country whilst retaining citizenship of another country (Israeli law also does not allow Members of Knesset to hold non-Israeli passports) I don’t believe that countries like Australia, Canada, or the USA, founded by immigrants should demand that their citizens sever all ties with their countries of origin.
Judaism teaches “Dina de Malkuta Dina”– that the Law of the Land is legally binding on all Jews in matters pertaining to the secular sphere–and that Jews have an obligation to obey the laws of the countries in which they reside–if it does not conflict with Jewish religious duties. Therefore, Jews in Australia have a religious Jewish obligation to pay their income tax (despite the fact that many Orthodox Jews nevertheless cheat on them), but if they passed a law banning circumcision or forcing Jews to violate the Sabbath then Jews are supposed to resist those laws. Religious Jews are also enjoined to demonstrate “hakarat ha tov” (a recognition of good) for governments that have treated Jews well. Countries like the USA, Australia, etc…have mostly been good to their Jewish populations, in contrast to the historical experiences of Jews in the Old World under Christian and Islamic rule. But forcing Jews to “expunge” from Judaism concepts such as of Eretz Yisrael and shared Jewish peoplehood, as you suggest, doesn’t sound like a benevolent policy and is reminiscent of the misguided attempts your country (I’m assuming you’re Aussie by your repeated references to Australia) to forcibly assimilate your aboriginal peoples and erase their heritages.
Yep, Shingo. the Mufti got together a band of Muslim troops for Hitler, but they did not come from the ME.
Crossing a border is not an invasion. There was no invasion.
The UN passed no resolution conedmning any invasion, which would have been passed had there been one. Unlike the Zionist forces, the arab armies did not destrouy villages and them inhabit them or expell the Jewish occupants of those villages.
Battle lines rarely conform perfectly to defined borders. Israeli forces had alrady moved well into arab territory long before teh Arab armies entered Palestine.
In which case, you must be an exception to the rule (seeing as you have a sicjh mind and cannot see the obvious similarity).
Which erfeclty describes he plight of Palestinians in the occupied territories and Gaza. That you, my sick minded friend, for demonstrating it so perfectly.
If they don’t see themselves as victims but seize the opportunities for social, economic and political advancement that are available to them in Israel, and take advantage of the privileges of Israeli citizenship and exploit their own talents to the fullest, they can succeed wildly in Israel.
Pot meet kettle.
That’s rich comming from an apolgist for a state that has succeeded wildly on the back of the Holocuast industry and extorting the world’s biggest aid cheques, wepoans, and diplomatic protetion from the West.
Of course it is.
link to original.antiwar.com
The government is definitely being controlled by religious extremists.
Yes they do. The fact that you can’t help but slander his name proves that his observatiosn strike a nerve with you.
In strict contravention of Article VIII of the 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Jordan
The same 1949 Armistice Agreement that was to allow refugees to return right? Ooops!!
I know half a dozen Jews who never had a problem visiting at in the 60′s, so clearly it was not all that often.
False again. 2 of the people I knew were religious and did indeed prasy at the Western Wall.
.
Yes I agree. The Palestinian refugees are entitled to more than ROR, but compensation on top of that.
ICC has in last few mins issued arrest warrant for Gaddafi. Where are same for those who unleashed IDF on Gaza? Like Livni, who said they were to “go wild”? Rather implies normal rules were set aside.
As Sadn revealed, not that long.
How ervealign that you should compare Israel to a totalitarian state.
Such is the need to do so in an apartheid state, where nationality is a term to differentiate ethnicity and privelage.
As still is today. In fact, the migrationof Jews to Germany was becomming suc h a problem that the Israeli government lobbied the German government to make Gemrnay less attractive to Russian Jewish immigrants.
link to ynetnews.com
Even today, Germany is the most favoured destination of Israeli Jews, and tens of thousand are applying for German passports.
religious indoctrination, but nothing to do with Palestine.
How can it be demonstrably false when “Eretz Yisrael” is a fictional construct?
Having failed to conquer the region, Napoleon referrred to Palestine as Israel to spite the arab inhabitants. The other examples you cited were fringe groupds of no significance.
Israel is indeed the nationality of Israel, and “Jewish” is not. Eljay was absolutely correct. This is proven by the fact that since Israel was created for the first time in 1948, Israel’s leadersare still trying to sell the idea that Israel is a Jewish state, but no one is buying it.
” If a Jewish citizen of Australia regards himself as belonging to the Jewish nationality or ethnicity (which you are mistakenly conflating with citizenship) but has no citizenship other than Australian, then he or she should have the same right as any other Australian to stand for Parliament”
The relevant law says “nationality”. There is no distinction between nationality and citizenship.
“and likewise, the same right to nurture a connection with their ancestral country of origin.”
The ancestors of most Australian Jews came from Britain, Poland, and Germany. If you want to talk about distant ancestors, then Kenya seems to be the country of origin for all of us.
“But forcing Jews”
I didn’t say anything about force. I would like Jews to give up the whole business.
“to “expunge” from Judaism concepts such as of Eretz Yisrael and shared Jewish peoplehood, as you suggest, doesn’t sound like a benevolent policy”
Maintaining such concepts seems far less benevolent. It seems damaging to everyone to keep insisting that Jews are to be separate and different from their neighbours.
The corpus of Jewish literature is full of references to am yisra’el , going back thousands of years. I showed you several examples to major Jewish organizations going back to the early 1800s that used the term “Israelite” and “Hebrew”. Additionally, the term for Jew in certain European languages (e.g., Russian “Yevrei” and Italian “Ebrei” ) means “Hebrew”. You’re being ridiculous again, and you don’t help the just cause for the Arabs who have recently started referring to themselves as “Palestinian”–a state of their own next to the Jewish state of Israel and a right to compensation for their refugees, along the right of Jewish refugees to be duly compensated for assets lost fleeing Arab countries as well as what became the Jordanian-ruled West Bank for 19 years. Next you’ll be endorsing this theory:
link to revisionism.nl
Again, I don’t know about “Palestine” (the name the British revived, in imitation of the Romans and Byzantines, as an official name for their brief 31-year colonial Mandate); but genetic testing has revealed that , with the exception recent individual converts, pretty much every historical Diaspora Jewish community worldwide, whether Ashkenazi, Sefaharadi, Mizrahi, shares a high degree of consanguinity and genetic markers indicating Middle Eastern origins. This has been extensively researched in the past decade and shows that Jews share a common origin, most likely in our own historic homeland of Eretz Yisrael. It’s conclusive. So far you’ve claimed there’s a a non-existent Weizmann Institute study and repeatedly invoked Shlomo Sand’s work of fantasy.
Basically your rhetorical tactic is just to deny without any solid backing up of anything you state. You’re a dim kiddie, but you’re not cute.
I see that you don’t even know the difference between the late Shah of Iran, a secularist if there ever was one and the the ayatollahs and mullahs who supplanted him.
Mikhael, you say, “….If a Jewish citizen of Australia regards himself as belonging to the Jewish nationality or ethnicity (which you are mistakenly conflating with citizenship)…”
Anybody can read how confused the Israeli courts are as to nationality and citizenship–ultimately, as to, who is a Jew? This is a bitterly sad state of affairs since systematic benefits and penalties accrue to anyone under Israeli jurisdiction based on whether or not one is considered by the relevant Israeli agency to be a Jew, or not.
In Israel, nationality, citizenship, religion, and ethnicity all overlap, more or less, as literally the case may be:
link to st2008.trincoll.edu
It’s like a rolling mirror image of the Nazi officials who use to say, “You’re a Jew or not if I say so!”
Mikhail, you are very misleading regarding citizenship and nationality under Israeli law. Any minor history buff viewing the confused Israeli case law on this subject gets a rolling mirror image of the Nazi officials who use to say, “You’re a Jew if I say you are!” link to st2008.trincoll.edu
It’s an absurd joke unless you contemplate that systematic material benefits or penalities accrue to anyone under Israeli jurisdiction, depending on whether or not they are classified as a Jew.
So are you a member of Shas or not?
The corpus of Jewish literature is full of references to am yisra’el , going back thousands of years.
Just as the corpus of Christian literature referes to heaven going back thousands of years, but both are equaly fictional.
I showed you several examples to major Jewish organizations going back to the early 1800s that used the term “Israelite” and “Hebrew”.
None of which proved the terms were widely used.
False. The terns for Jews in Italian is “giudeo”, meaing Jew. For manyh such languages, the terms “Hebrew” was pejorative.
Just as Jews recently started referring to themselves as “Israelis”
Apparently, youre running out of talkign points, hence the need to delve into trivia and çheap attacks on others.
The tests howver do not diffeentiate between whether those origind are fro teh anciernt Hebrews or from Turkic/Karar lineage. So it’s clearly not conclusive.
False. None of the research mentioned anythign about a fictional “Eretz Yisrae”. nor even Palestine for that matter.
So far you’ve claimed there’s a a non-existent Weizmann Institute study and repeatedly invoked Shlomo Sand’s work of fantasy.
False again
The genetic study is consistent with the view promoted by Sand that, “from the time of the Hellenistic Jewish writers in the second century BCE to Philo Judaeus of Alexandria in the first century CE, not only was conversion favorably received, but some of the writings actually promoted it.”[16] Thus the study states:
The Middle Eastern [Jewish] populations were formed by Jews in the Babylonian and Persian empires who are thought to have remained geographically continuous in those locales. In contrast, the other Jewish populations were formed more recently from Jews who migrated or were expelled from Palestine and from individuals who were converted to Judaism during Hellenic-Hasmonean times, when proselytism was a common Jewish practice. During Greco-Roman times, recorded mass conversions led to 6 million people practicing Judaism in Roman times or up to 10% of the population of the Roman Empire.[17]
And the “central thesis” of Sands work is more accurately summarized by Tom Segev, in the same hophmi linked Wiki article:
Tom Segev wrote that Sand’s book “is intended to promote the idea that Israel should be a ‘state of all its citizens’ – Jews, Arabs and others – in contrast to its declared identity as a ‘Jewish and democratic’ state” and that the book is generally “well-written” and includes “numerous facts and insights that many Israelis will be astonished to read for the first time”.[8]
If you spent as much time making a conerent argument as you do attempting to provoke others into personal sniping, you might be more convincing.
There is the one prominent example I gave of a British officer who was bribed to let the Israelis know exactly when they were evacuating Schneller Camp, but otherwise in most cases, the British did their utmost to leave their bases in as damaged a condition as possible, and sabotaged as much equipment as they could (they also took as much as they could with them). Their first priority was to get their personnel and equipment out as quickly as possible. Most of their stuff they managed to take with them, much was sabotaged.
It’s true that between November 1947 and May 14 1948, the Mandate had not yet been invaded by the neighboring Arab states’ armies, but fighting between Jews and Arabs had broken out right after the UN vote. The Haganah conducted a raid on Tel HaShomerthe base in November to get weapons, but by April it was occupied by Arab irregular forces–the main concern of the British was pulling their own people out. The battle for Tel HaShomer (built, incidentally on land the British confiscated from a Jewish village) occurred soon thereafter, a month before the final British evacuation in 1948; it was fought between Haganah and Arab irregulars–several Jewish and several Arab fighters were killed–the British didn’t just throw the Haganah the keys and say “Have fun!”
Unfortunately, with rare exceptions, this was usually not the case. My grandfather had the job of taking parts from smashed British wireless sets and cobbling them together to make working field communications devices. The British didn’t just hand over their installations and equipments as gifts.
Well, technically speaking, the term “West Bank” was not used for Judea and Samaria until the Jordanian occupation and annexation from 1949-1967–but nevertheless, the British had maintained several bases in the area, including at Jenin, Tulkarem, Ramallah. Some were former Ottoman Turkish bases that later became Jordanian bases. After 1967, they served as Israeli army bases. I served in one for part of my army service.
Mikhael, Jews are not the only people indoctrinated in their youth with religious and historical myths; even those who eventually choose to be “secular” keep repeating such ideas and images, if for no other reason than they think it supports whatever their agenda is, or they just can’t help themselves from doing it, which is the nature of early indoctrination especially. That doesn’t mean the rest of us have to accept what they posit by such references, personifications, figurative language, fictions, as past, present, or guides to future reality.
Hahah, you’re punny.
I’d never join a political party that would have me as a member and voting is for suckers anyway.
That may or may not be true, but in general, the British handed all the camps over to the Zionists militias, along with arms, tanks, bvehicles, and roads.
There are not examples of the British damaging anything as they left, let alone sabotage. They considered it part of their madante to see to it that the Zionist forces were armed are ready. After all, the British participaed in much of the expusion of the Palestinians from towns like Tibirious and Jaffa.
Their first priority was to get their personnel out, not their equipment.
It’s true that between November 1947 and May 14 1948, the Mandate had not yet been invaded by the neighboring Arab states’ armies, but fighting between Jews and Arabs had broken out right after the UN vote.
There was no fighting. As with today, it was an entirely one sided affair with the Zionist militias cleansing and destroyhign villages as per their orders to do so.
In the case of the Tel HaShomerthe base, it was a minor skirmish, but the Zionist terror grops were always in control.
The battle for Tel HaShomer (built, incidentally on land the British confiscated from a Jewish village) occurred soon thereafter, a month before the final British evacuation in 1948; it was fought between Haganah and Arab irregulars–several Jewish and several Arab fighters were killed–the British didn’t just throw the Haganah the keys and say “Have fun!”
They did for all intents and purposes, seeing as the British had spent the previous decade disarming the Palestinains, expellign their leaders, demolishing their homes as acts fo collective pounishment (that’s where the Israelis got the idea originally) and killignthousands of Arabs.
That might have been the case when the Zionist forces attacked the British, but otherwise, they were given free reign.
Technically speaking, Judea and Samaria don’t exist.
That’s a far cry from being given 2,700 government buildings, 50 train stations, 3,000 km of paved roads, a number of sea ports, and 37 military camps filled with weapons and space parts
Good point. What use is voting when you live in a theocrtic state anyway right?
So, Mikhael, do you look like Woody Allen too?
It doesn’t alter the fact that modern political Zionism took one of the central tenets of Jewish religion, i.e., that Jews collectively constitute one nation and have their home in Eretz Yisrael
For thousands of years the central tenet of Judaism was that the return of the Jews to Eretz Yisrael was an allegorical reference to the spiritual after life. The political Zionists were secular. They employed the convenient idea of a messianic era in order to whip-up a xenophobic war over water and real estate in the midst of a bunch of barren rocky hilltops, and a stretch of God-forsaken semi-arid desert. If that’s all your totalitarian nation-state of Israel is going to offer, then let’s consign it to the dust bin of history and move on before it financially and morally bankrupts us all.
Israel was in a weak military position at the time. His July 1948 peace plan would have forced Israel to give up all the Negev, all of Jerusalem, give the Jordanians access to Haifa, and would have restricted Israel to an enclave in part of Western Galilee and the area around Tel Aviv–a fraction of the patchwork borders that UNSCOP allotted to the proposed Jewish state.
UNSCOP never allocated Jerusalem or the Negev to the Jews in the first place. That’s why the Jewish Agency rejected the offer. The Ad Hoc Committee didn’t give them Western Jerusalem, as they had demanded. So, they immediately launched an offensive to secure it as the Old City too. The Negev wasn’t inhabited by the Jews, and wasn’t part of the biblical land of Israel either. So it’s just a propaganda talking point to claim Bernadotte was asking the Jews to “give up” some vital interest there. The Ad Hoc Committee partition plan that the Jews had supposedly accepted already provided the Arab State with freedom of transit to Haifa and Jaffa.
The tale that the 80,000 fighters in the Jewish underground were in a weak military position is a Zionist bedtime story. Their ability to defend their own territory was never in doubt. On February 18, 1948 Moshe Sharett wrote “We will have only enough troops to defend ourselves, not to take over the country.” Ben Gurion replied:
The Lebanese Army didn’t have enough ammunition to provide for its own defense, so it only played a marginal role. The Syrians contacted Abdullah on 15 May and begged him to call off the plan to occupy Arab Palestine. The Syrians never moved after they took-up their initial positions. The Iraqis and Syrians didn’t even seriously molest the Jewish supply lines in their areas. The 6,000 man Arab Legion had been part of the 100,000 man British force that had been unable to maintain the peace in the face of resistance from the Yishuv and its enormous underground movement. Once the British began withdrawing, a tipping point was quickly reached in which they were outmatched by the Jewish militias. The Prime Minister of Transjordan and Brigadier Glubb never proposed deploying the 6,000 man Arab Legion outside of the heavily populated districts of central Arab Palestine. The Legion was a light fighting force used to augment the regular British forces. So, it never had its own air force, tanks, or heavy artillery. It was so outnumbered that it was necessary to conclude a modus vivendi agreement with the Haganah to avoid unnecessary clashes and casualties. The Jewish militias had carried-out highly publicized ethnic cleansing operations in the Corpus Separatum towns and villages like Deir Yassin. The majority of Jewish casualties occurred in fighting in and around Jerusalem when the Legion relieved the Arab inhabitants. There was no tacit agreement with the Haganah regarding territory outside of the Jewish state, but with the Legion tied down in Jerusalem and the West Bank, the Israelis were able to concentrate their forces wherever else they were needed.
A well equipped 100,000 man force had proven to be insufficient to occupy Palestine. Anyone who thinks that Transjordan aimed to occupy the same area with only 6,000 and to push the Jews into the sea needs to do the math. The story of the limited Egyptian goals in the Beersheba and Gaza region is much the same. The Arab inhabitants and occupation forces in Beersheba threatened to cut the country in half and deny the Israelis access to the Gulf of Aqaba and the Negev.
Mikhael,
“Kol hakavod” for your patience in this exchange, especially with Shingo. I sort of gave up on a discussion a few days ago which somehow came to focus on Second Temple history and he/she simply refused to acknowledge basic facts. I felt that the investment of time and effort was futile. I have a life.
Anyway, your comments are excellent.
Lightbringer, if you aren’t too busy nursing old wounds from the 15th century, maybe you can take a look at the overtly bigoted 20th century diatribes that take up so many columns of space in the Hebrew press regarding the dangers posed by allowing Christians and Messianic Jews to live in Eretz Yisroel. It all looks pretty damned psychotic to me. If they ever start reading the weekly review from the Caspari Media Center in the Bible Belt, “Christian” Zionism will become a thing of the past. link to caspari.com
It was Groucho Marx, not Woody Allen. And no, I don’t look like either of them. I’m often told in Israel that I resemble Meir Banai (google image him if you’re curious).
I live in New York City and New York State, and if I wanted to vote in Israel, I’d have travel there every time I wanted to vote. (Except for government workers posted abroad, such as embassy staff, Israel has no absentee ballot). Nevertheless, Israel has had more dramatic electoral changes than New York has had in its legislature for over a century. I voted in an American election for the first and last time in the New York City mayoral election of 1989 (for Dinkins and against Giuliani), and also voted in Israel just once (in 1992, for Yitzhak Rabin).
From one lying Likudnik to another.
Hey Mr Post Zionist, I’m still looking forward to hearigng your theory about how only Jewish stone structures dissapear iknto thin air while buildings that predate Judaism are still visible.
Up till the late 90′s perhaps, but howadays it’s a 2 horse race, and soon to become one between the right wing and the far right wing.
Israel recognizes civil, interfaith and same-sex marriages that happen abroad
Here are some examples of interfaith spouses being deported:
*Filipina widow and mother of Israeli toddler to be deported
*Bulgarian whose Israeli husband committed suicide fights deportation
*Ukrainian Widow threatened with deportation
*Reams of red tape keep couple’s relationship long distance
It is ironic that Turkey has civil marriage, but the “dhimmis” in Israel have retained the old millet system they supposedly “inherited” from the Ottomans. The Zionists could fully implement the 19th century Ottoman Hatt-ı Şerif and Hatt-ı Hümayun, aka Tanzimat reforms. That would at least guarantee everyone a greater degree of civil equality.
If they want to be second-class and persist in seeing themselves as second-class, then they will be second-class. Nobody with his eyes in his head denies discrimination against Arabs in Israel exists. There is casual bigotry and institutional obstacles to overcome–but Arabs can and do achieve positions in Israeli society that belies a permanent caste-like “second-class status”.
The Goldstone report said that
The laws of the state of Israel that legally discriminate against every non-Jewish citizen and relegates them to a permanent caste-like second-rate status include, but are not limited to: The Defense (Emergency) Regulation (1945) extended to the present; Law of Return (1950); Nationality Law (1952); Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (2003) Temporary Order 5763 (2003) extended to present; Absentee Property Law (1950); Status Law of Israel (1952); Basic Law: Israel Lands (1960); Land Acquisition Law (1953) as amended (2010); Planning and Construction Law (1965); Law on Agricultural Settlement (1967); and Israel Lands Authority Law (2009).
“The real Australians are the Aborigines.”
The ancestors of the Aborigines migrated to Australia, they were born here, and that makes them Australian.
So why are Jews whose ancestors also migrated to Australia, and who were born here, not real Australians? Why do they belong to some other “nation”?
” As a non-Australian, it’s not for me to comment on what a real Australian is,”
But you just did.
Shingo, In fact I’m about as far from being a Likudnik as can be.
I never said that stone structures “dissapear iknto thin air” (sic).
And I decided, when I first started posting here, never to deliberately lie in my comments.
For an Israeli, that’s called a disctintino without a difference.
In which case, I accept your claim that you lie unintentionally.
Aren’t you confusing your own image with Phil Weiss’s?
Hostage
You should understand that from classic Judaism point of view there is not much difference between Christians and, say, Druids because both these represent Pagan beliefs – which is mortal sin to any Jew. Mortal means that kills an immortal soul.
To worship a (un)dead person? No way.
However most Israelis couldn’t care less of other’s beliefs as long as they are not trying to proselyte Jews – which equals to murder.
I stated quite clearly that discussing “Palestinians” as if they ever constituted a distinct nationality in the past is clearly anachronistic
I’ve already corrected you on that point repeatedly. I even provided you with some academic sources including Kimmerling, Svirsky, Davidson, and Dalsheim who say that Zionists are deliberately dishonest about the origins of the Palestinian people, their nationality, and their nationalism. Here are some key dates:
*Kimmerling and Migdal wrote that the Palestinian people existed as a social entity by no later than 1834. See Baruch Kimmerling, Joel S. Migdal, The Palestinian people: a history, Harvard University Press, 2003, page xv-xvi
*They were calling themselves Palestinians by no later than 1919 when the first Palestinian Arab Congress (al-Muʾtamar al-Arabi al-Filastini) met in Jerusalem from 27 January to 9 February 1919.
*By the time that the Third Palestinian Arab Congress met in Haifa in December 1920 they were calling for Palestinian Arab autonomy. See Kimmerling page 85.
*The Delegation to Great Britain in February 1922 self-identified themselves as representatives of the “Arab People of Palestine” and members of the “People of Palestine”. They demanded their own national constitution and representative government. By their own definition, no foreign Zionists were included.
*Throughout the British Mandate, Palestine was officially recognized as a State with its own nationality” by dozens of other countries and the international courts.
*UN General Assembly resolution 181(II) of November 29, 1947 partitioned mandated Palestine into two States, one Arab and one Jewish, and started a transition period pending the establishment of the two States. See General Assembly Resolution 181(II) ES-10/14, 12 December 2003 and para 2.3 of Judge Elaraby’s 2004 Advisory Opinion on the international status of Palestine.
*Prior to May 14, 1948 Jacob Robinson advised the People’s Council of Israel that the Jewish State was already in existence as a result of the 29 November 1947 resolution.
Both the US State Department and the United Nations recognized Arab Palestine as a separate foreign country.
*The Foreign Relations of the United States (FRUS) series presents the official documentary historical record of major U.S. foreign policy decisions and significant diplomatic activity. It records the fact that the United States Government agreed to the principles underlying the resolutions of the Arab Palestine Congress held at Jericho on December 1, 1948. See Foreign relations of the United States, 1948. The Near East, South Asia, and Africa Volume V, Part 2, Page 1706
*The State Department Bulletin Vol. 22 for January 1950 reported that the United Nations had sent the Clapp Mission to the Middle East countries of Lebanon, Jordan, Arab Palestine, and Syria. The Economic Survey Mission for the Middle East, headed by Gordon R. Clapp, chairman of the Board of Directors of the Tennessee Valley Authority recommended four projects involving the Wadi Zerqa basin in Jordan, the Wadi Qilt watershed and stream bed in Arab Palestine, the Litani River in Lebanon, and the Ghab Swamps in Syria. (Kindle version Locations 4706- 4727).
The introduction of the “Restatement (Third) of the Foreign Relations Law of the United States” says that “In the United States, the principal resources for research in international law and practice are the successive Digests of International Law – by Wharton (1866); Moore (1906), Hackworth (1940), and Whiteman (1963), and the State Department’s Annual Digest of United States Practice in International Law, beginning in 1973.”
*The State Department Digest of International Law 1963 devoted an entire chapter to “Territory and Sovereignty of States”. In § 8 “Annexation” there is a discussion about the acquisition of sovereignty over the West Bank by Jordan on the basis of the four resolutions of the Second Arab Palestine Conference (aka Jericho Congress) held on December 1, 1948. Note: A few weeks after the Congress the name of Transjordan was officially changed to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (January 21, 1949). The Digest also described US recognition of the union between Arab Palestine and Transjordan as an expression of the sovereign will of the two peoples. Secretary of State Acheson stated at his April 26, 1950 press conference that “The elections which were held on the 11th were on the basis of the incorporation of Arab Palestine into the Hashemite Kingdom. Those elections have taken place and this action of the parliament will be to ratify that decision. Now, our American attitude is that we have no objection whatever to the union of peoples mutually desirous of this new relationship.” See pages 1163-1168 of Marjorie M. Whiteman (editor), Digest of International Law, vol. 2 (Washington, DC: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1963)
*The 1950 FRUS contains a Memorandum of Conversation, between Mr. Stuart W. Rockwell of the Office of African and Near Eastern Affairs and Mr. Abdel Monem Rifai, Counselor, Jordan Legation in Washington, June 5, 1950 which officially documents the US recognition of the union between Arab Palestine and Transjordan and the sovereignty of the resulting entity, Jordan, over the new territory. See Foreign relations of the United States, 1950. The Near East, South Asia, and Africa, Volume V (1950), Page 921
It is a matter of public record in the United States that the use of the term Palestine “enrages individual Israelis” See Foreign Relations of the United States, 1961-1963, Vol. Xviii, Near East, United States. Dept. of State, G.P.O., 1995, ISBN 0160451590, page 341.
If you are still having trouble accepting the documentary record regarding the Arab Palestinian people, their nationality, and their country, see Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) : DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria.
You should understand that from classic Judaism point of view
I’m perfectly familiar with all of the old Jewish superstitions. I’m just surprised that the secular Hebrew press devotes so much column space to so-called attempts to proselytize Jews on a regular basis. After all, it’s the information age. The secular US MSM aren’t idiots, even if the Christian Zionists aren’t very well informed. AIPAC can’t control the narrative in the Bible Belt. They already lost the Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, & etc.
“I’m perfectly familiar with all of the old Jewish superstitions. I’m just surprised that the secular Hebrew press devotes so much column space to so-called attempts to proselytize Jews on a regular basis.”
I’ve browsed through that website – really couldn’t say that there is TOO MUCH column space devoted to that proselyte issue.
Unless of course you consider articles like this one to be about proselytes:
Lightkiller, the article you quote is just another showing Israel is very much interested in increasing lucrative Christian tourism to their holy sights under Israeli control/jurisdiction. Israel loves foreign Christians so long as they boost tourist dollars and don’t plan to stay long. Of course Israel treats its native Christians quite differently, an historical affair fundie Christians in the USA never seem to notice, right along with the US regimes that come and go.
A large number of Palestinian Christians now living in S America are from families expelled from their homes in 1948 by Israel, for example the 600,000 living in Chile today. In a 2007 letter from Congressman Henry Hyde to President George W. Bush, Hyde stated that “the Christian community is being crushed in the mill of the bitter Israeli-Palestinian conflict” and that expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem were “irreversibly damaging the dwindling Christian community” Most Christians in Gaza blame the Israeli occupation pre-2005, the current siege on the city and the war on Gaza 2009 to be the reason for their exodus from Gaza. During the recent war on Gaza, three churches—Baptist, Orthodox, and Catholic—were damaged by Israeli shelling, and many Christians lost their lives during the Gaza offensive. Armenians in Jerusalem, identified as Palestinian Christians, have also been attacked and received threats from Israeli and Jewish extremists; Christians and clergy have been spat at, and one Armenian Archbishop was beaten and his centuries old cross broken. In September, two Armenian Christian clergy were expelled after protesting against Jewish extremists for spitting on holy Christian objects. In February 2009, a group of Christian activists within the West Bank wrote an open letter asking Pope Benedict XVI to postpone his scheduled trip to Israel unless the government changes its treatment. They highlighted improved access to places of worship and ending the taxation of church properties as key concerns. The Pope began his five-day visit to Israel and the Palestinian Territories on Sunday, May 10, 2009, planning to express support for the region’s Christians. In response to Palestinian public statements, Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor criticized the political polarization of the papal visit, remarking that “it will serve the cause of peace much better if this visit is taken for what it is, a pilgrimage, a visit for the cause of peace and unity.”
I’ve browsed through that website
You’re cherry picking. The website gives full coverage to the press treatment of Christians and Messianic Jews by the folks in Yad L’Achim and the Haredim community. That includes court protected demonstrations outside private residences involving hundreds of angry protestors, spitting, spay painting graffiti, throwing soiled diapers, deportations, acts of arson and other terrorist acts.
When gentiles do that sort of thing we call it a pogram.
“You’re cherry picking.”
I could tell the same about you.
I really don’t have a luxury of time to read all articles on the website, but I’ve checked all articles since the beginning of this year.
The only act of violence towards Christians was a murder of Christian woman by Muslim Arabs.
And the only act by the Yad Le-Ahim (never heard of them by the way) was a demonstration in Ashdod which was met by rather furious criticism.
Could you please back you words up and provide links to 10 (ten) occurrences of “court protected demonstrations outside private residences involving hundreds of angry protestors, spitting, spay painting graffiti, throwing soiled diapers, deportations, acts of arson and other terrorist acts.”
p.s. it’s “pogrom”
I could tell the same about you.
Hardly, the Caspari Center originally started translating the articles from the Hebrew Press for their periodic editions of the Media Review to demonstrate the hostility exhibited towards Christians and Messianic Jews in Israel. That sort of thing generally isn’t reflected in the English editions even when those are available. They mention both the favorable and unfavorable press coverage. Unlike the Israeli Supreme Court, in the US it is illegal for hundreds of protestors to demonstrate outside a person’s residence. The Neo-Nazi’s had a hard time getting permission for a parade in Skokie, there’s no way they could demonstrate outside a private residence of a leader of the Jewish community like the Haredim do in Israel.
jon s, above is an earlier question still waiting for you.
He won’t answer. He doesn’t have an answer that’s even slightly persuasive for starters.
Was the blanket boycott of apartheid South Africa morally wrong and politically counter- productive?
As an Israeli peacenik I support and practice a boycott of the settlements.
The peacenik who apologizes for ethnic cleansing, mass murder, apartheid, home demolition, and occupation.
Why would a company such as Barkan Wines, which pulled out of the territories to back inside the Green Line, do so if they would be boycotted anyway?
The puppet of BDS is to force all of Israel to pull out of the territories to back inside the Green Line, not just a winery.
The fact that millions of Israelis are sitting on their hands, supporting both actively and passively the crimes Israel commits in their name, they have willingly become the immoral party.
They have relinquished all rights and privileges to protest that which the world imposes on them, be it BDS or otherwise.
Your complaint should be to the Israeli government, not those who stand in solidarity with the oppressed.
But, then again, appealing to the moral values and conscience of those who are used to privilege, used to being the overlords, is futile.
a blanket boycott of Israel is morally wrong
The morality blanket only covers the bed when Israel has friends over for dinner.
whats the point of using a tactic that cant work. typical Israeli and settlement supporter bs. you want them to continue so you childishly demand we ignore the support structure.
yes you have argued many a time and failed every time. because you demanding the people wishing to end the occupation fail is so damn easy to see through. it isn’t about morality its about superiority.
Boycotting only the settlements’ products/produce do not make sense to me unless you explain how Israel is not responsible for the illegal settlements built on stolen lands and the occupation at large. Why should I be selective in my boycott when Israel as a whole is the culprit? Whom are you exactly kidding??
New readers BEWARE: Mondoweiss is the target of Israel’s propaganda (hasbara) machine. es1982 is one of a number of hasbarists who arrive at the site throughout the day.
“es1982 is one of a number of hasbarists who arrive at the site throughout the day.”
How can you say that? Look, haven’t you seen all the condemnations of Mondoweiss from our little hasbaratchiks? They don’t like us, they don’t like Phil or Adam, and they think Mondoweiss is full of crap and anti-Semetism, and moreover, ineffective or worse.
Isn’t it obvious that Phil and Adam are holding these people against their will and forcing them to read and comment. I mean, what sensible person would stay at a blog they thought so little of?
Phil and Adam, I realise you are very devoted to your cause, but kidnapping is a felony!
I love the flash mob tactics…..they should do some on congress.
Slightly OT, but related to deception–the best article I have seen tied to the Weiner scandal that addresses the BIGGER picture of the culture of lying and cheating by politicians, elites, WS, the media.
It’s an epidemic in America.
link to thehill.com
I love the flash mob tactics…..they should do some on congress.
Me too. But if they do them for Congress, given the nature of our congressional attention-span, everyone in them has to be jail-bait.
I hope Jane Hamscher was shopping there that day.
I too have long boycotted goods made in the West Bank.
I believe the BDS campaign is misguided because it is more focused on punishing Israel than delivering justice for Palestinians.
The BDS campaign has nothing to say about the treatment of Palestinians in Lebanon nor anything about the execution without trial of suspected collaborators in Gaza.
The message of BDS is crimes committed by Israel are worse than crimes committed by anyone else.
I have no problem with anyone accusing Israel of crimes. I have a problem with people accusing Israel exclusively. I don’t think it’s necessarily racist to single Israel out, although some of the people doing so may be racist, but I do think it’s odd.
I believe the BDS campaign is misguided because it is more focused on punishing Israel than delivering justice for Palestinians.
The point is to punish Israel by objecting peacefully. It is the one doing the occupying.
I have a problem with people accusing Israel exclusively.
Who else are you going to accuse? Israel, exclusively, is doing the occupying.
“Who else are you going to accuse? Israel, exclusively, is doing the occupying.”
If we’re going to talking about Apartheid then I believe the treatment of Palestinians in Lebanon is a much closer approximation of Apartheid. BDS has nothing to say about this. Nor does BDS have anything to say about the treatment of Palestinians in Gaza. It has nothing to say about honor killings or the oppression of women and the persecution of homosexuals under Hamas.
For these reasons I find BDS campaign intellectually dishonest. Palestinians continue to suffer throughout the region. There is a fair argument to be made that the occupation is the most egregious cause of their suffering, but to take it out of context and not call for sanctions against all governments that persecute Palestinians feels extremely dodgy.
When the BDS calls out Hamas for their contributions to Palestinian suffering and their war crimes (as acknowledged by the Goldstone Report) alongside calls against the Israeli government I will feel more confident that it is a movement for justice and not for one-sided punishment.
Hey, GF, should the BDS against apartheid S Africa focused equally on the other ills in the world?
why the hell would Palestinian civil society work exclusively on ending apartheid-like conditions for the refugees in Lebanon when their immediate concerns are their own treatment in Israel and the OT???
I believe the treatment of Palestinians in Lebanon is a much closer approximation of Apartheid.
The basis of Palestinian and Lebanese nationality is article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne, i.e. international conventional law. We call them “Palestinians” because they were legal citizens and nationals of the territory of the Mandated State of Palestine. That means they are foreign aliens in Lebanon. The prohibition of apartheid contained in Article 3 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD) does not apply to the normal distinctions, exclusions, restrictions or preferences made between citizens and non-citizens (Article 1(2)). Unlike Lebanon, Israel adopted legislation regarding nationality, citizenship, and denaturalization that illegally discriminated against the indigenous Arab Palestinian nationals in their own homeland (Article 1(3)).
BTW the hasbara talking points were updated after the government of Lebanon granted Palestinians refugees the right to register and get work permits.
If we’re going to talking about Apartheid then I believe the treatment of Palestinians in Lebanon is a much closer approximation of Apartheid.
How so?
BDS has nothing to say about this.
Of course it doesn’t. BDS is focused on issues affecting Palestinians, not the Palestinian diaspora, whether it is in Lebanon or America.
It has nothing to say about honor killings or the oppression of women and the persecution of homosexuals under Hamas.
For the same reason it doesn’t have anything to say about Jews spitting on Christians or the persecution of homosexuals around the world. Why does BDS have to address every world issue before it addresses Palestinian issues?
Was the boycott of apartheid South Africa also misguided GF?
“Was the boycott of apartheid South Africa also misguided GF?”
No, I don’t believe it was. The South African government had a clearly stated policy of racial segregation that I don’t believe is reflected wholly in the racial problems within the State of Israel.
The campaign against South African Apartheid clearly stood against all forms of racial discrimination. The BDS campaign calls for sanctions against Israel while ignoring Palestinian Apartheid in neighboring Lebanon – a clear double standard which leaves the entire campaign looking morally dubious.
It would be a simple matter for Omar Barghouti to call the Lebanese government out for 40 years of Apartheid against the Palestinians, but he won’t. His reasons may be political and the may be racial, but, either way, they’re dishonest.
I’m willing to have a difficult discussion about racism in Israel, but I’m not willing to have it alone without the Lebanese. I’m willing to have a difficult discussion about denial of human rights to the Palestinians, but I’m not willing to have it alone without Hamas. The BDS campaign expects Israel to stand alone and and confess its crimes while burying everyone else’s. I don’t see how that is fair or just.
It applied exclusively to South Africa, no other country. Lebanon does not belong to Israel, though that might cone as a surprise to you.
There is no apartheid in Lebanon. Lebanon is not an occupier or imposing racial segregation.
Lebanon has as much to do with Israel as Mozambique had to do with South Africa.
You Zionist wing nuts are seriously unhinged.
“There is no apartheid in Lebanon. Lebanon is not an occupier or imposing racial segregation.”
This is simply false. There is apartheid in Lebanon and Lebanon is imposing racial segregation. The question of whether or not Lebanon is occupied is rather more complicated but given that Hizbullah controls a large unsanctioned army within the borders of a sovereign country, I think there’s a case to be made that Lebanon is indeed under the control of an occupying force funded and supplied by a foreign power.
I think that a call for sanctions against Israel that does not include or even mention the racist treatment of Palestinians over the border is dishonest. The anti-Apartheid movement in the 70s and 80s was an inclusionist movement which allied itself with movements for social justice throughout the world. People who stood up for Mandela rallied against injustice everywhere. We were the same people who campaigned against nuclear arms and the right to abortion and against capital punishment.
The BDS movement is within its rights to focus on Israel. What amazes me is that supporters of the BDS movement have nothing to say when the governments of other countries discriminate against Palestinians.
Why will no one on this board acknowledge Lebanese Apartheid?
GF, is Israel under the control of an occupying force funded and supplied by a foreign power?
Why will no one on this board acknowledge Lebanese Apartheid?
I thought I had made it perfectly clear in my post above. The situation in Lebanon doesn’t satisfy the necessary elements of the crime of apartheid, since it is not the country of origin or nationality of the Palestinians.
FYI, the United States, United Kingdom, and France have always insisted on excluding the Palestinians from the protections, including the ones on refoulment, contained in the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and the 1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees. See Article 1D of the Convention (page 18 of 56). That means there is nothing to prevent Lebanon from expelling them or returning them to Israel.
See for example the discussion on Citizenship and Denationalization in pages 60-67 of The right to leave and return in international law and practice, by Hurst Hannum. He explains that when States expel their nationals to the territories of other States without the consent of those States and refuse readmission, thus forcing States to retain on their soil aliens whom they have the right to expel under international law, such action would constitute a violation of the territorial supremacy of those States.
Israel doesn’t have the right to turn Lebanon into the permanent domicile of the Palestinian people it refuses to readmit.
@Citizen
No, the West Bank is, aren’t you paying attention?
There is no apartheid in in Lebanon and Lebanon is not imposing racial segregation. Refugees in many western states are kept apart from the local population, and in Lebanon’s case, they are doing so becasue they cannot afford to absord the refugees. Hizbullah is part of the Lebanese government, hence it’s army is a defacto Lebanese military force.
Seeign as Hizbullah is part of the Lebanese government, it cannot possibly be argued that Lebanon is under the control of an occupying force funded and supplied by a foreign power. In fact, Hizbullah is funded and supplied less by a foreign power that the Israeli government.
You can think what you like, but you’d be wrong. The anti-Apartheid movement in the 70s and 80s was was directed exclusively and specifically at South Africa – no other state. it’s funny you should mention Mandela, who supports BDS and deascribes Israel as an apartrheid state. The same people who campaigned against nuclear arms and the right to abortion and against capital punishment also support BDS.
It does not exist, hence there is noting to aknowledge. Meanwhile, do you aknowledge Israeli apartheid or not?
This is simply false. There is apartheid in Lebanon and Lebanon is imposing racial segregation.
See Hostage’s legal definitions of apartheid. Don’t gloss over them. He’s forgotten more than you could conjure as an indignation.
But allow me to put it in simpler, less legal, terms. Apartheid is like national domestic abuse. Has to happen in your own house to the people who live there. When the (same) abused gets beaten up or misused next door, it’s called battery. It’s no longer domestic abuse.
The question of whether or not Lebanon is occupied is rather more complicated but given that Hizbullah controls a large unsanctioned army within the borders of a sovereign country, I think there’s a case to be made that Lebanon is indeed under the control of an occupying force funded and supplied by a foreign power.
Does living in Israel make you this stupid? Or is this called ‘A little from Column A, a little from Column B, and I’ll make an argument’? Is this how the Hasbara dept comes up with its boners…any old words will do as long as you can stick ‘em in a sentence and think there’s some fool around who will believe ‘em?
P.S. GF, look up the Dutch/Afrikaans meaning of the word Apartheid.
Waddya know, the zionists are finding yet more distortions of language to make bds advocates look bad and Israel look better.
Shorter Guilty Feat
“I’m willing to have a difficult discussion about racism in Israel, but I’m not willing to have it alone without the Lebanese.”
But as you are being held in the secret Mondoweiss laboratory of crime, and forbidden to leave, you don’t have much choice, huh?
New readers BEWARE: Mondoweiss is the target of Israel’s propaganda (hasbara) machine. Guilty Feat is one of a number of hasbarists who arrive at the site throughout the day.
I have repeatedly stated that I represent my own views and no one else’s.
patm is a habitual liar.
To recap:
I believe the occupation must end immediately. It is wrong and possibly even evil.
I believe that my Prime Minister, Binyamin Netanyahu is an idiot.
I believe that Israeli actions during operation Cast Lead exceeded all acceptable boundaries and there is a strong case for Israeli commanders to be tried for war crimes alongside their Hamas counterparts.
I believe the siege of Gaza is evil.
patm maintains that these are the opinions of a paid propagandist of the Israeli government.
patm is a habitual liar who prefers to badmouth people and specifically me rather than engage in debate. He is a troll of the worst and most useless kind.
I have asked him repeatedly to provide evidence of his claims about me but he refuses to respond and then repeats his claims elsewhere. The mods show clear bias towards his continued ad hominem lies while often censoring my right of response.
So people know? Guilty Feat was actually a British citizen who abandoned the UK for Israel. While we’re, you know, putting everybody’s cards out on the table.
I love the way you are telling people things I wrote about myself as if I somehow preferred they were kept secret.
Just to be accurate, your tense is wrong. I am still a British citizen, maintaining dual citizenship as I see no reason not to. I know you like to read things into that, but that’s your prerogative, I guess.
How do you feel about patm’s persistent lies? Are they helpful?
Fair enough GF. I never thought you were a troll or hasbarist. (Meaning that you came here sincerely to debate)
Maybe all Americans should get dual citizenship? Anyone see any problem with that? I think there are pros and cons to dual citizen ship. In the USA intent (the current legal test when there is a question if someone gave up their US citizenship) to give up one’s citizenship here is if you serve a foreign government in a capacity that requires some judgement, e.g., above a certain grade in a foreign military, or as an administrator or diplomat. Otherwise, you’d have to stand atop the Empire State building and bellow out you are giving up your US citizenship while a helicopter captures said intent on audio film. A few paltry examples of personal benefits of dual citizenship are easier travel and better business opportunities; it’s easier to get visas to travel and qualify for more jobs. Other examples of the perks of dual citizenship are to save tax dollars, have wider job choices, and retain the right to return and retire in the USA. Any more pros and cons?
It’s a trend, especiall among certain groups, and is stirring some unease. Some argue that dual citizenship weakens a person’s commitment to the United States, threatens a common national identity and violates the oath of allegiance taken by every naturalized citizen to “absolutely and entirely renounce” fidelity to any foreign government. A person cannot be loyal to two countries any more than to two spouses or two religions, critics say. Do the critics have a point? Would there be anything to worry about, say, if our government and military contain lots of dual citizens? Should we do away the oath of allegiance for any thing, or everything? Should natural bon Americans who subsequently obtain dual citizenship and live in another country significantly have to take the oath of allegiance?
“I believe…” (Guilty Feat)
Well, good for you! That and being the right kind of Jew will get you a spot in Israel any day of the week.
“I have asked him repeatedly to provide evidence of his claims about me but he refuses to respond and then repeats his claims elsewhere.”
Ah, if only you were free to leave and never comment on this fleshugginer blog again. But considering you are here against your will, I understand your distress.
Israel is singled out for vilification while other countries with much worse human-rights records are not. Why not boycott the US and the UK for their wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, with their horrendous civilian casualties, and Russia for its wars in Chechnya and Georgia, and China for its human-rights abuses and its policies in Tibet ,and practically all the Moslem and Arab countries? The singling-out of Israel – the only Jewish state in the world – leads to the suspicion that something else may be at play here- at least in some instances- namely good old-fashioned Anti-Semitism , which is a form of racism. That’s why I called the boycott racist.
Listen to the Hasbarist scream.
He wouldn’t be objecting to it if he thought it wouldn’t work.
Israel is singled out for vilification while other countries with much worse human-rights records are not.
Did you oppose the boycott of South Africa on the grounds that there were worse human rights abuses at the time in Mozambique?
shingo 7:04pm – israel was one of the only countries that continued to trade and support south africa while everyone else was boycotting it…
Israel was also proliferating nuclear weapons to South Africa during this period too.
The “only Jewish state” argument is pathetic, even by your standards. Let’s hear Iran reject sanctions on it’s peaceful nuclear weapons program on the grounds it’s the only Persian state.
Or are you arguing that Israeli apartheid be given a pass because if the Jewish state argument?
jon s, your argument mirrors that of the apartheid S African regime’s back in the day, and before that, the Hitler’ regime’s. It’s also the leitmotif of Charlie Brown and every primary grade kid who ever became the focus of the teacher’s negative attention.
Basic hasbara: Don’t look here, look over there!
Americans ignore their civic duty if they don’t look hard at the foreign state they give the bigget chunk of their tax dollars to, and their most consistent diplomatic cover to, the same one that is the only one that American does not have an arms-length relationship with, and especially when, as currently, American tax dollars are desperately needed at home.
jon s quote “The singling-out of Israel – the only Jewish state in the world – leads to the suspicion that something else may be at play here- at least in some instances- namely good old-fashioned Anti-Semitism , which is a form of racism. That’s why I called the boycott racist.”
a country that is based on a particular religion but claims to be based on democracy is a joke… in israel anyone not a jew is treated as a 2nd class citizen or worse in such a country… israel is practicing racism by continuing to put it’s own religion and culture on a higher footing than others… israel will continue to be a racist country so long as it wants to continue to elevate jews above other citizens based solely on ethnic and religious background… you folks can’t have it both ways… the bds movement is definitely going to have to target israel as a whole country until israel comes to terms with it’s intolerance for the welfare of those that don’t happen to be jewish…
singled out…others
You got yer tu quoques coming out yer tuchas!
Yeah. Single me out for $3b a year please.
eGuard, and, yeah, also single me out for $2b a year in “loan guarantees” that I will never have to pay back, so they are in effect, free grants. And, oh yeah, single me out to get interest on that $3b which I alone get in full early in the year, and which the US gets by borrowing at interest from China. And single me out as the only one in position to ignore US patents and get to sell on the cheap what Americans took years to develop.
Add to that the trade agreement with the US that declassified US government documents describe as amounting to a $10 billion annual aid package to Israel.
And the bill in congress now that seeks to curb the executive power to intervene militaristically around the world at whim–except there is an executive exemption when it comes to any move claiming it is acting to defend Israel–despite the fact we have no mutual-defense treaty with Israel. Now, isn’t that special?
Jon s let’s us know:
Israel is singled out for vilification while other countries with much worse human-rights records are not.
Not that long ago I agreed with you here. But not today. What changed my mind was in fact the war you mention — the war in Iraq. The decision to go to war against Iraq was worse than a crime, it was a terrible mistake. Dissecting the reasons the US invaded Iraq can be fairly complex but one thing that emerges clearly is the influence of the the Israel lobby here in the US. This was done through the influence of the Neocons — proIsraeli agents without any doubt. Also the Israeli government actively urged the US to invade. Walt and Mearsheimer devote an entire chapter in their book documenting this effort.
I was active in the antiwar movement in 2003 and watched how we lost that campaign. The pressure coming from the Lobby was overwhelming. The NY Times and the Wash Post, with their proIsrael bias but their reputations as “progressive” news outlets moved many liberals to support that insane war. After losing that campaign I realized that we had to undermine Israeli influence over US foreign policy.
What to do next? Not simple. However, it seemed the simplest political movement was to undermine Israeli influence inside the US. Israel is small. Their treatment of the Palestinians was indefensible. The US economy is simply to big to boycott. But Israel was vulnerable to a BDS campaign, especially in Europe where the Lobby has much less influence. Also Europe is Israel’s largest export market — hence that is vulnerable. Thus many of us decided to attack the weakest link in this chain — namely the Israeli economy. So the reason we have targeted the Israeli economy is that it is vulnerable.
Do you see the connection? The Israel lobby has the power to lead the US into wars that benefit no one but the state of Israel. Therefore, we will work to strangle the Israeli economy to let them know we are no longer interested in fighting Israel’s wars.
That is my background. But something else has happened to me in the last half dozen years. My sympathy for the Palestinians has grown. In fact, I now support BDS because it is cause for justice and that is worthwhile for itself. You also seem to agree the Israel oppresses the Palestinians. So come on over — join us, wouldn’t achieving a little justice in this world be worthwhile, even if others pockets of injustice are found elsewhere.
“Israel is singled out”
Very weak argument
Israel is not singled out for boycott on the world stage. People boycott many countries for many different things. It’s singled out here because it’s a site with a specific area of interest, the Israel Palestine conflict!
“Israel is singled out”
Very weak argument
Indeed. As long as jon s keeps repeating the ridiculous accusation that BDS is racist, I will keep posting Jerry Haber’s “Singling Out Israel for Moral Opprobrium”:
link to jeremiahhaber.com
Just had to watch again and smile. Even though the facts on the ground are so gruesome, brutal ,deadly.
“There was only one thing left to do…..Dance” Just makes me smile, nod my head with the beat. Don’t have a clue where flash mobs started. But they are so damn amazing!
Get out a few facts..keep the blood moving…stop and engage the crowds attention….So creative…so alive.
The first thing you see in this video is a sign saying ‘Anti-Occupation is not Anti-Semitism’. Did the movement against apartheid in South Africa hold up a sign saying ‘Anti-Apartheid is not Anti-Whiteism’? No, they saw no need to apologise. But with Jewish racists, there is this inbuilt deference which needs to be overcome.
the first thing zionists do when they are being challenged with their bullshit is to call others anti-semite…. since this has been a fairly foolproof method for silencing any opposition to israels deceptions it has continued on, but unfortunately more and more folks aren’t buying it because it isn’t true! folks want to see some justice and israels xenophobic character is on full display for all to see… yell anti-semite all you folks want.. it ain’t sticking and folks aren’t buying that anymore… israel needs to be held accountable for it’s actions towards the palestinians…
LOL yea Jaynot, I agree. Jewish racists like Alan Dershowitz, Abe Foxman, etc. all contribute to this standard that must be shaken even if it’s a show – political theater – designed to deligitimize Israel’s critics.
“I think people will come to learn, the same way they learned about South Africa”: link to veteranstoday.com
It’s hilarious to watch Zionism devolve into a form of petulant whining and bickering reminiscent of childhood.
When your mother busted you for something and the only defense you had was to scream that your sibling had done something “worse” before and gotten away with it. “But, Mom!”
That’s what modern Zionism is becoming. “But, Mom! No fair!”
I can hardly contain my amusement.
James says “yell anti-semite all you folks want.. it ain’t sticking and folks aren’t buying that anymore”. In that case, why do activists for Palestinian rights always explain that they are not anti-semitic, like the ones in the above video? It IS still sticking. Folks are still buying it. The solution is to stop caring about anti-semitism. Of course, I know this is a highly controversial argument, and it’s gotten me barred from several message boards, and I’m grateful to Mondoweiss for allowing me to say it.
Because it’s a popular talking-point for Zionists to accuse everything under the sun of antisemitism. Not that difficult – and you don’t know whether ‘people buy it’.
What we do know is that, in our political culture being thought of as a racist or an antisemite is essentially becoming a pariah.
The standard for what is acceptable is unacceptable. It’s Zionists saying ‘criticism of Israel = antisemitism’ – and that’s precisely their issue. You don’t want criticism of Israel to become widespread in the US, so you gotta keep calling it antisemitic to keep people scared of saying anything.
jaynot – i think a good part of the reason activists go to the trouble to tell folks they aren’t anti-semite, is they are not preaching to the choir… the mainstream media with the help of right wing jewish organizations have brainwashed a lot of media consumers (that don’t take a closer look at what is going on in apartheid israel) as any criticism of israel is essentially anti-semite…. i think this is a necessary caveat until more ordinary people become educated on what is actually going on inside israel…
do i think the new york times, washington post or wall st journal covers the i/p honestly and in a fair way? the answer is a resounding NO! for those who feed at the trough of these media outlets, not to mention FOX, NPR and etc. etc., i think it is necessary for these activists to state this up front…
what do you think?
Also, I wanted to mention, it is ironic when Zionists and others brag about how “Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East,” or as Bill Maher likes to say, shrilly, “Israel is a democracy in an area where there aren’t any.”
But point out what’s going on in Israel/Palestine and almost without exception you get “but look at Saudi Arabia, look at Syria, Jordan does this, Libya does that.”
As soon as democratic Israel is called out on its behavior Zionists start comparing Israel to everyone but democracies.
As you all well know, this is for a good reason; that is, Israeli “democracy” does not survive close scrutiny and comparisons to states that have (to one extent or another) functioning democracy.
There is nothing that GuiltyFeat, Richard Witty or any of the other “moderate” Zionists can say to disprove this. There’s only so much that can be swept under the rug, and only for so long.
Edit: Coincidentally I just found a great post to confirm what I wrote, above:
They zionists brag about Israel being a democracy – but just observe. 1/3 the people under its rule have no vote, this state has persisted for over 2/3 of its existence. You don’t need to throw in the fact of its founding, that zionists achieved a Jewish majority by forcing non-Jews out with mass terror and murder. We really need to stop calling it a democracy.
>> As soon as democratic Israel is called out on its behavior Zionists start comparing Israel to everyone but democracies.
That’s one of the slogans:
“Israel: It’s not as good as the best but, hey, at least it’s not as bad as the worst!” (c)
Not exactly something to crow about.
“But point out what’s going on in Israel/Palestine and almost without exception you get “but look at Saudi Arabia, look at Syria, Jordan does this, Libya does that.” ”
Well, yes, yes you do, don’t you? Maybe that because the Syrian government has already killed more civilians than there were people killed in Cast Lead and you people don’t seem to have that much to say about it.
The real comparison for Israel is to democracies that have faced similar security threats. There aren’t many, but the US response to September 11, which has resulted in more than 100,000 civilian deaths, the internment of prisoners without charge at Guantanamo Bay, the use of rendition, drone strikes (known in Israel as targeted killing), and so on, is instructive enough. Now imagine that a threat similar to what Israel faces came from Canada. Avi would be living under occupation right now, and my guess is he would not be able to vote in the 2012 US Presidential election.
I don’t recall anyone posting comments who criticizes Israeli policy ever defending the neocon Bush Jr regime’s use of the 9/11 incident to unilaterally attack Iraq or go into Afghanistan beyond the original hot pursuit of Bin Laden; none have defended Obama’s surge there either. Nor have they ever defended the use of Homeland Security to slowly turn the USA into a police state. I have heard some say that the USA is increasingly copying the worst characteristics of Israel in its foreign policy, and a lot deploring any preemptive attack on Iran. Many of us feel Obama should not have squelched bringing up the Bush regime heavies on war crime charges. And we think his handling of Afghanistan is wrong. Further, that the US could do without at least half of its 750 military bases around the world, and use that funding at home, where it’s desperately needed.
Jonah’s comment above should have been at this post:
link to mondoweiss.net
His point is that Syria has a very repressive government, so why protest against apartheid in Israel? This is the same argument the defenders of apartheid South Africa used to use – other African countries are dictatorships, so why pick on us? South Africa was part of the West. In the case of Israel, it’s supported by involuntary donations from the non-Jewish majority of Western countries. Syria isn’t.
Wow, Israel is supported by involuntary donations? That’s a very superficial (and intentionally stupid) way to look at it.
So no need to answer your straw man.
ES1982′s and GF’s argument about only targeting the occupation and not Israel is too rediculous for words.
It would be like trying to combat organized crime by going after the guys on the street but not going after the ring leaders, because you know, it would be counter productive.
Best comedy I’ve seen in awhile. The confused faces of the onlookers says it all.
Once again, I love how your movement is working hard to be identified as the movement that goes around disturbing the peace, telling people about Palestinian “resistance” and arguing that they should support Hamas.
My people, who offer real human rights, an actual political and security alliance, ethnic diversity, respect for LGBT, and so much more, are always going to be able to wipe the floor with people like you where it really matters.
When are you going to start strapping on the suicide belts and really resisting?
Your peopel also offer massive human righs abuses, vioklatisn fo international law, mass murder, ethnic cleansing, war and violence.
But hey, you call yourselves as democracy, so it’s OK.
So you’ve pretty much been a bully all your life? I hope you don’t have any younger siblings, God help them.
Or children, for that matter.
Cliff says “you don’t know whether ‘people buy it’” (the allegation of anti-semitism), and “in our political culture being thought of as a racist or an antisemite is essentially becoming a pariah”. This is contradictory. If there is excessive fear of ridiculous allegations, then people DO buy it, they are terrified of these allegations. White guilt saturates the left – including the people in the video – and it even affects Republicans – George Bush Senior had to apologise to the Lobby – this is part of Jewish power in the USA. The current state of hypersensitivity to ethnic issues might have helped defeat apartheid in Africa, but it is counter-productive in opposing apartheid in Palestine.
No Jaynot.
My statement is that being thought of as a racist is a widespread fear.
Then I said that zionists use that fear and related fears of becoming a social pariah as a bludgeon to silence critics.
I did not say or imply that people, an abstraction, fear racism/etc., because they believe they are being racist.
“they” fear “it” because of how it will affect their lives. The perception of being thought of as a racist.
It’s a PR game and zionists blatantly use the anti-Semite card with such transparent cynicism that I think people can sense that the allegations with respect to Israel-Palestine are bs. Nevertheless the status of being thought of as a racist hurts your job, your public image, your legacy, etc.
What does it have to do with the validity of the accusation itself? Not much.
James answers me: “…activists go to the trouble to tell folks they aren’t anti-semite… because they are not preaching to the choir… mainstrem media and jewish organizations have brainwashed people… that any criticism of israel is essentially anti-semite…. until more ordinary people become educated…”
We can’t beat the media by ‘educating’ people about the ‘facts’. It’s a question of consciousness-raising. We need to free ourselves from Jewish cultural hegemony like Steve Biko freed himself from white power. He said black people in South Africa were too apologetic. They couldn’t overthrow that power immediately, but they could change their attitude. That was the beginning. But opposing Jewish racism isn’t quite the same thing as opposing white racism – one is countering something more subtle, which manipulates liberal as well as conservative attitudes.
Telling people you aren’t anti-semitic is apologetic. It conveys an atttitude more than a fact. It is if one is trying to answer the allegations of the Anti-Defamation League. As if Steve Biko had carefully explained that the apartheid regime’s beliefs were wrong.
“We need to free ourselves from Jewish cultural hegemony ”
What the heck is “Jewish cultural hegemony?”
I have a better idea. Free yourself from antisemitism and put out a positive message instead of a negative one. No one gives a crap about where Osem or Ahava come from. Most people who have bought them like Osem snacks and Ahava skin products, and the message that human rights should play a role in what products one uses is beyond silly when most of what we wear, use, and consume is made in China.
Jews make up 2% of the population. By contrast, let’s pick another minority — Catholics make up 22%. So when is the last time you saw a show where any of the characters explicitly referenced Catholic touchstones? Can you name me a Catholic analog of Seinfeld? Were any of the characters on Friends Catholic? When is the last time you saw a Catholic priest referenced in pop culture who wasn’t A) performing an exorcism or B) the butt of a pedophilia reference?
Catholic priests and bishops were portrayed quite positively on shows like Blue Bloods and Mad Men, just to name two recent examples. I’m sure there have been more characters of Catholic priests than characters of rabbis (in fact, I can’t think of any rabbis who have been on American television recently). Also, I remember a lot of shows where people mentioned going to midnight mass on Christmas or showed them going to a confession. I’d say catholic practices are shown more often than Jewish practices – after all, most Jewish characters are secular and don’t tend to discuss Jewish traditions.
Joey Tribiani was a Catholic on “Friends”.
Starting out softly, softly on your shift at hasbara central, es1982??
I’m still unclear on the concept whereby “secular” people have a God-given right to specific land in the Middle East.
Equating Catholics with pedophile priests is a staple of US entertainment and culture.
Hophmi asks ‘What the heck is “Jewish cultural hegemony?”’. Holocaust museums. Holo-wood. Congress giving 28 standing ovations to the leader of a foreign country which takes $8 million a day in tribute. The official story of World War II. Joe Lieberman. Stephen Zunes. Jewish Voice for Peace. The fact that Israeli childrens’ deaths are reported at a rate seven times those of Palestinians in the US media. The fact that the activists in the movie above feel the need to explain that they’re not anti-semitic. The fact that president Bush senior felt the need to explain that he’s not anti-semitic. We need to free ourselves from philosemitism, not antisemitism.
“Hophmi asks ‘What the heck is “Jewish cultural hegemony?”’
If he doesn’t know, all he has to do is look at Israel. Oh, that’s right, I forgot, all those Palestinians who won’t leave are ruining the Jewish Paradise.
Part of the math on said hegemony, the number of swimming pools containing each group?
“Holocaust museums.”
Holocaust museums are “Jewish cultural hegemony?” In what way? The USHMM is not a Jewish museum. It’s a Holocaust museum.
“Congress giving 28 standing ovations to the leader of a foreign country which takes $8 million a day in tribute. ”
How is this “Jewish” cultural hegemony? Congress gave lots of standing ovations to Tony Blair when he visited. Did you go on about “Anglican” or “English cultural hegemony?”
“The official story of World War II. ”
So is Tom Brokaw’s “The Greatest Generation” part of “Jewish cultural hegemony?”
“Joe Lieberman.”
So, if a few Jews get elected to the US Senate, that to you is “Jewish cultural hegemony?”
“Jewish Voice for Peace.”
So, Jewish peace organizations are also “Jewish cultural hegemony?” Is Electronic Intifada an example of “Arab cultural hegemony?”
Seems to me you have an obsession with all things Jewish, so you suffer from what you call “Jewish cultural hegemony.” I suggest you seek help.
Meanwhile, when Palestinians try to declare a state, you screech that they’re out to get “all us Jews.”
You can’t have it both ways.
‘Chaos4700′ gave a better answer to Hophmi’s question about ‘Jewish cultural hegemony’ than I did. But I’ll briefly reply to Hophmi’s comment above.
‘Jewish Voice for Peace’ is a classic example of Jewish power in the left. It got Helen Thomas disinvited from the recent ‘Move over AIPAC’ conference because “some Jews don’t like her”. As for Holocaust Museums, they are all over the US, and almost exclusively remember one of many holocausts, one the USA didn’t do.
Yes, Congress did applaud Tony Blair. But that’s because he’s a lapdog of US imperialism. With Netanyahu, it’s the other way round. George Mitchell was able to armtwist Britain into making peace with the IRA. With Israel, he was forestalled. It’s no good just calling it ‘Zionism’ like it’s an ideology, or ‘imperialism’, like it’s a rational US strategy. It’s Jewish power.