White Shirts in Jerusalem cry ‘Butcher the Arabs’

What has Zionism done to Jewish identity? I ask that question a million times a day, but this video of Jerusalem day, June 1, is particularly poignant.

Celebrating the reunion of Jerusalem following the ’67 War, the demonstration is reminiscent of Freud’s father telling him about being attacked during the Hep-hep pogroms in 1819. Look at all these boys in their white shirts. Hear them shouting Muhammad is Dead! And spitting at a Palestinian compound. Giving the finger. And “butcher the Arabs… death to Arabs… May your village burn…” I’m trusting the translations. How deep in any people is the spirit of ethnic cleansing– and what licenses that spirit? How intractable is this conflict, and what can Americans be doing to wind these screwballs down? Thanks to Elly K.

Oh and Annie was on this last night. Her report:

Ynet reports the Sheikh Jarrah Solidarity Movement filmed right-wing activists chanting and singing inflammatory songs and slogans including “Muhammad is dead,” “May your village burn,” “Death to leftists,” and “Butcher the Arabs” while marching through East Jerusalem yesterday. English subtitles added to video.

Wadi Hilweh Information Center – Silwan

Israeli extremists staged a racist march in honor of Jerusalem Day today, from the Palestinian neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah. The streets of East Jerusalem stood empty, save for the thousands of Israeli marchers, supported by Israeli troops, who chanted slogans against Arabs, Muslims and Christians. Phrases such as “death to Arabs” rung out. Right-wing extremists attacked a group of left-wing Israeli counter-protesters before Israeli police eyes, who did nothing to impede the assault. Three left-wing Israelis and one American protester were arrested by police. The American citizen remains in police custody.

(photos and captions provided by Wadi Hilweh Information Center – Silwan)

Extremists in the streets of Jerusalem

 

Jerusalem streets empty save for marchers and military back-up

The march ends in front of the Wailing Wall

UPDATE: misquoted earlier post on Hep-Hep riots. Thanks to Joachim for correction.

About Phil Weiss and Annie

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.
Posted in Israel/Palestine

{ 207 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. Kathleen says:

    I witnessed some of this same self indulgent arrogance and cultural psychosis outside of the Aipac conference.

    Phil when you ask about what has happened to Jewish identity. What examples can you give of Jews being committed as a group to social and human rights of others other than the civil rights movement. Individually I think there have been many Jews, Christians, Muslims , Buddhistetc committed to human rights issues through history. But I really believe that attempting to promote Jews as a group always being committed to the human and social justice rights of others is promoting another myth. I believe you have read the old testament. Violence, hatred , killing , different treatment was promoted towards non Jews.

    Where can you point to an example of Jews as a group (besides civil rights) being so committed to the human rights of others? Actually I do recall that some Jewish groups were rallying in response to the genocide in Rwanda. But this Jewish identity being spun that Jews as a group have always been committed to social justice for others is more spin

    • annie says:

      i don’t think it is a myth kathleen. practically every social justice group i have ever been a part of (that i can think of off the top of my head) has been disproportionately jewish. it’s not like i seek them out.

      • Kathleen says:

        I have never found that at all. Individual Jewish members but not disproportionate at all.

        Annie can you give me an example of this idea that “Jewish identity” is somehow linked to being committed to social justice and human rights issues. Saw it during the civil rights movement but by no means disproportionate representation by Jews. Give me an example in history where as a group Jews have been disproportionately committed to social justice and human rights issues. I firmly believe this is spin and a myth.

        In no way am I saying that individual Jews have not been committed but this “Jewish identity” is just hogwash

        • annie says:

          no i can’t right now. i have to catch a plane. this site is massive messing with my schedule. ;)
          i am needed elsewhere. i have not even packed. drag me away why don’t you. hellllllo seattle

        • Kathleen says:

          I don’t you or Phillip or anyone else can point out historical facts where a real “Jewish identity” based on a commitment to social and human rights justice was pre dominant or a cultural, ethnic, religious commitment. Myth being cultivated

        • GuiltyFeat says:

          Kathleen why are you talking about Jews or Jewish identity? Isn’t the issue here Israelis and Zionists neither of which group represents more than half of all Jews.

        • MRW says:

          Saw it during the civil rights movement but by no means disproportionate representation by Jews.

          Charles Payne’s extraordinary and seminal 1998 book on the Civil Rights Movement I’ve Got the Light of Freedom shows that there were three decades—over a quarter of a century— of dedicated organizing within the Black community before any White people, Jewish, Christian or Otherwise, showed up on the scene.

          It is completely inappropriate, and ugly, for any White group (Jewish, Christian or Otherwise) to co-opt what the Black people did for themselves. The proof of it is that most White people don’t even know the history of the Civil Rights Movement. Nor do they care. The work that Blacks did caused the Whites to pay attention.

          Whites just jumped on the Black bandwagon and called it their own from the 50s onward. But the Blacks were actively working on it from the 19-teens.

        • MRW says:

          Give it a rest, GuiltyFeat: “Isn’t the issue here Israelis and Zionists neither of which group represents more than half of all Jews.”

          The definition of Jewish Diaspora as it relates to Israel takes care of that. You can’t have it both ways.

        • marc b. says:

          precisely, MRW. with all due respect to white christians and jews who were committed to the cause, civil rights was a ‘colored’ movement, one of the catalysts being ‘colored’ service in the military during WWII, and the treatment of servicemen and women upon their return from service.

        • tree says:

          I agree with Kathleen on this point. Just as there are individual Christians (and Muslims) committed to social and human rights, and that does not mean that a “Christian” or “Muslim” identity is, ipso facto, committed thusly.

          I’ve always viewed religion as a external template to draw your internal humanity, If your humanity is a kind and moral one, it will fit in any religions template, and likewise if your humanity is sick and hateful, the same religious template can fit. If it makes it easier to pretend that your humanity comes from some outside source, so be it, but its all about the individual’s inner workings, not what religion they adhere to.

        • tree says:

          Kathleen why are you talking about Jews or Jewish identity?

          Read Phil’s first sentence. “What has Zionism done to Jewish identity?” He’s talking about Jewish identity and Zionism. He’d like to believe that Jewish identity is intimately wrapped up in working for human and civil rights and sympathy for the underdog. Perhaps his identity is, but it is by no means a predominant one, most especially in Israel, where Jews are most clearly not underdogs themselves.

        • Ellen says:

          Guilty F. You know why. Kathleen is picking up on Phil’s very first sentence of this article: “What has Zionism done to Jewish identity?”

          You are diverting the conversation. Not honest.

        • marc b. says:

          in further response to the ‘jewish’ civil rights movement, i think the contemporary strain of american ‘jewish’ conservatism deserves another outing as an antidote to the sepia toned images of 60′s jewish liberalism, david mamet and gene simmons being recent spokespersons for unenlightened, unexceptional thought.

        • marc b. says:

          Not honest.

          that’s one interpretation. there are other less flattering interpretations that a reasonable person might reach.

        • MRW: Saw it during the civil rights movement but by no means disproportionate representation by Jews.

          I can give one example in the civil rights movement where there seemed to be no Jewish representation. In 1960-61 in Houston, movie theaters and public lunch counters were desegregated due to repeated street demonstrations and sit-ins by young blacks. It was essentially a black movement. But in the beginning a handful of students (including me) from an all-white university went to the all-black university across town to help organize, enlist, and give moral encouragement to rather anxious young blacks stepping into the unknown. Most of us, the few “whites,” remained in this effort for months.

          I remember one especially ugly incident. It was the first picket demonstration on the sidewalk in front of the old Metropolitan Theater on Main Street. Everyone was quite nervous as we marshaled our “troops.” A very angry crowd of “whites” had gathered at the curb, shouting profanities and shaking their fists, while two or three white policemen restrained them. Soon the pressure and emotional heat from the crowd became so intense that the young black students held back and stopped marching along the sidewalk. I grabbed one of their picket signs and began marching straight along the curb, staring directly into the raging eyes of the reddest, most hate-filled faces I’ve ever seen – not more than a foot from my own head. Never have I been called such names before or since. Soon after my little thrust, the black students picked up their signs and began marching again, under the watchful eyes of the police, now a half-dozen in number. We were safe until the crowd thinned and the police left, at which point we ran for our lives to get to our vehicles and back to school. It was a vivid experience forever seared into my brain.

          I don’t remember any of the few white students involved in that desegregation campaign being Jewish, but I would be happy to be wrong about that.

        • seafoid says:

          Thomson

          Does the unfolding story in Israel remind you of what happened in the US in the late 1950s ?

        • Kathleen says:

          Guilty Feat do you even read the friggin post? You could try to pretend you do.

          Phillip’s first sentence”What has Zionism done to Jewish identity? I ask that question a million times a day, but this video of Jerusalem day, June 1, is particularly poignant.”

          I heard this Jewish identity hogwash at the Move over Aipac conference and on other blogs. More spin. There have clearly been Jewish individuals involved with human rights and justice issues but spinning this as some type of “Jewish identity” historical over view is simply that …hogwash. As I asked Phillip and Annie came in I asked “show me” where there is some historical proof of this alleged “Jewish identity” as Jews collectively being committed to human rights and social justice within the “Jewish identity” framework that Phillip and others have been spinning

          Really think this is myth building

        • Kathleen says:

          Thanks. Such good points. And it has been heavily promoted that Jews were a major part of that movement with actually what proof? My card carrying union member and very Catholic mother and Catholic Notre Dame nuns introduced me to the civil rights movement. As a teenager I was not asking people involved are you Jewish, Catholic etc? Just that in our media it is promoted that Jews were heavily involved with the civil rights movement. Not in agreement with Annie at all that Jews are disproportionately involved in any social justice movement that I have had the honor to be involved with. Have noticed that many Jews often quickly identify themselves as Jews. Have never figured that need to identify themselves as Jewish out. Seems to divide and separate to some degree

        • Seafoid,

          There are some similarities between the struggles for racial equality in the Deep South of the late 50′s-early 60′s on one hand, and the struggle for Palestinians’ rights in the Levant. Certainly, the racial hatred of extreme Zionists at the battle lines of today reminds me of what I saw in some “white” Texans in the day of Jim Crow.

          But I think there are significant differences. The cultural differences – and the degree of physical and social separation – between black and white in Texas then was not as stark as it seems to be in Israel. Overt and active government support for separation of the races was not as strong in Texas then as in Israel today. White and black children were not taught to hate one another in school, even though they went to separate schools. In my family there were close emotional attachments with individual blacks, even though the blacks were in subservient positions and were thought to be of a naturally inferior race. There were bonds of affection felt by “whites” even in the midst of degrading social institutions which they supported. Does something like that happen often among Israeli Jews?

          Once those degrading social institutions (of racial segregation) were stripped away by the Federal government, often with the strong support of local government and businesses, a steady, inexorable improvement in the attitudes of the white “oppressors” was very evident to me – though, regrettably, perhaps not so evident to the blacks themselves.

          Many years later, after my first “retirement,” I led the development of a software system that controlled the operation of Metro buses for the city of Houston, and which also managed the complex payroll calculations for bus drivers. Eighty per cent of the drivers and supervisors were black, so I worked with many of them daily in defining requirements and ironing out problems. During this couple of years I had the opportunity to discuss with them the changes in racial relations and attitudes that had taken place since those exciting times in Houston decades earlier. That’s a long story, so let me just say that from the perspective of the older blacks much had improved in the area of racial relations. But what had not improved nearly enough, especially for the majority who lived in the black neighborhoods of the inner city, was opportunity for economic advancement for them and their children. The legacy of Jim Crow still remained after all those years.

          How does this compare with Israel/Palestine? In the case of Jim Crow in the Deep South, there were powerful governmental and economic forces, including the solid foundation of the U.S. Constitution, demanding an end to racial segregation. That is all lacking in Israel. In America, egalitarianism is an essential ideal (like freedom) that has guided the historical course of the nation. The political ideology of Israel is Zionism, which has at its very core prejudice and discrimination toward goyim, and especially Arabs.

          In America, no essential transformation of American political ideals was required to eliminate overt racial segregation. But to gain political equality for the Palestinians, the Zionist ideology must be overturned and a new political ethos must be grafted onto Israeli society. I’m not optimistic about that.

        • Djinn says:

          f your humanity is a kind and moral one, it will fit in any religions template, and likewise if your humanity is sick and hateful, the same religious template can fit

          Exactly and helpfully the holy books of most, if not all religions (my familiarity is really only with monotheism) have plenty of genocide & love thy neighbour stories to make it easy for both sides of the coin.

        • I grew up in the south as well during that era.

          I think the major difference between Jim Crow and Israel is the fact that no one in the South thought that blacks were outsiders or didn’t belong on “the land”. In that sense, they were considered as American as anyone else.

          My dad grew up in Chicago and among many of the white ethnic communities there, blacks were indeed considered foreign, but not so in the South.

      • American says:

        I would have to go with kathleen on this.
        I don’t think that “Jewish identity” either as a religion or as some kind of people group have had any more wide spread involvement or superior values to other groups/ or as compared as Jewish individuals to non Jewish individuals.
        I do think some tend to “take disproportionate credit” for any social justice or value movements or effort they have some Jewish individuals involved in.
        And I think this tendency is inspired by group leaders to the point where it has become a revolving wheel affecting everything to do with Jews and many Jews believe it.
        I thought about this the other day when I was checking House bills and saw that Schumer had a bill directing the US government to go back and study ‘all’ WWI Jewish military members who got a medal to see if they should be awarded the ‘Medal of Honor’ instead.
        Mind you this bill was limited to seeing ‘only’ if Jews who served could retroactively be awarded this medal, not to include a study for any non Jewish. And these kinds of efforts on behalf of the Jews by those like Schumer go on frequently and are how myths are built and some can be elevated above others.
        Now you would think if any honorable person was concerned that a solider got passed over for a medal he deserved, efforts to correct that would include the other soldiers, not just Jewish ones.
        This is along the same lines we often see when Jewish activist claim all kinds of superior accomplishments for Israel or Jews, most of time completely erroneous like the invention of the cell phone or computer chips or their superior drug research and inventions by Telva, which is company whose drug manufacturing is 90% generics from pirated US or French or German patents.
        We also see claims made about the Jewish influence in the founding of America….some of it so absurd that we know it’s just zionist efforts to link us to them…but what happens is Jews who know no better or who think it is something that will add to their status or ego latch on to these things and they get passed around further adding to the propaganda or wish to believe that somehow Jews are responsible for all the outstanding accomplishment in the world and they are intellectually and morally superior.

        Why there is this tendency probably has a lot of explanations. Maybe it is their culture, maybe it is the need to toot their own horn from having been mostly underdogs in history, probably it is a combination of various things.

        Phil writes and dwells quite a bit on Jewish values and contributions to the world. I don’t take it personally as racist or necessarily as a claim of Jewish superiority to all others, mainly because I am guessing he, like others, has issues with the Jewish identity ingrained in him not fitting what he sees in some of it today. And he is constantly conflicted between exceptionalizing Jewish identity because he is a Jew, and condemning those who don’t live up to how he sees it.
        But what do I know, I didn’t stay in a Holiday Inn last night so my psychoanalyzing and 2 cents will get you basically nothing.

        However I think if gentiles and non Jews tried to take credit for things in the way some Jews do and pushed their race or group or religon as exceptional to others as many zionist do, the howls of bigot and superior attitude and etc. would be all over the place.

        • Kathleen says:

          “I do think some tend to “take disproportionate credit” for any social justice or value movements or effort they have some Jewish individuals involved in.”

          Bingo. This tendency can seep into and dominate any social justice issue. Dangerous and undermines

        • Ellen says:

          from having been mostly underdogs in history,

          That is another cultivated myth.

          There were Jews in the US Senate at a time when Catholics were still not allowed to own property in many states because there was a fear they would give it to the Vatican. The first Senator of Florida was Jewish.

          Jews held a very high position in most all of Central Europe. Jews were welcomed into the State of Prussia — encouraged to come and break up the guilds.

          In what is called the Rhineland (Mainz, Worms) Jewish Yeshivas thrived for centuries where Jews contributed much to the cultural and economic life. (I’v visited ancient Jewish grave yards going back to the 3rd century in Mainz.) It was a golden age between the 8th and 12th century. One of the oldest grave markers in what is now Berlin is a 2nd century grave of a daughter of a Rabbi.

          Then the crusades started, making life miserable for many, not just Jews. And then there was the Reformation. Where Protestants were (are) taught that the Jews killed Jesus, making life even worse for Jews (and quite miserable for Catholics who’s heads adorned the London Bridge by the hundreds) ….while Catholics hang onto the guilt line of” Jesus died for our sins. ”

          As a group Jews held a very influential position in Spain — up until the insanity of the Inquisition, where the expulsion was negotiated with Queen Isabella. The Jews were the lucky ones! They were allowed to leave. (I wrote more details on this in an earlier post last week.) Vastly more Muslims were persecuted under the Inquisition.

          And when the Jews left Spain (under a Papel Bull and protection Isabella and Ferdinand) they were welcomed into the Eastern Balkan regions, where the Ottoman empire even patronized and sponsored the construction of sacred buildings.

          In the arch of time, Jews have not been mostly the underdogs, but valued contributors to much. Why isn’t this emphasized?

          Nor were there forced Jewish Ghettos, but communities to be separate from Goyim by choice.

          It is still that way. Very conservative Jews would never ever mingle with Goyim. Or if so, only when no one else in the community sees the interaction.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          That Schumer matter is appalling. It does remind me of when, during the Clinton administration, a number of Japanese-Americans (incl. Daniel Inouye) received the MoH. During the ceremony, Clinton said something to the effect of ‘It was a great dishonor to our country that these men were denied the Medal of Honor because they were of Japanese descent.’

          And I thought, no, what was the great dishonor is that they were denied the Medal of Honor, because they earned it. It should not matter why someone was not awarded it if they deserved it. The reason is the backstory. The shame is the denial.

          If Schumer wants to have all of the soldiers’ awards examined, then fine. I would support that 100%. But singling out one or another group to check if they got an award they deserved is wrong. If it was wrong not to award a soldier a MoH because he was a Jew, it is equally wrong not to review the award of a soldier now because he was not a Jew.

        • American says:

          @ Ellen
          I don’t disagree that that is real history of Jews either.
          And I have a theory as to how and why the ancient (pre holocaust) victimhood meme started for Jews.
          The actual beginning or first instance of Jewish victimhood, as it is always presented, has been a matter of curiosity for me so I have done a lot of reading and research as my time allowed, back into ancient history trying to pinpoint it and find an answer. I finally got a translation of Solzhenitsyn’s book ’200 Years Together’ recently and it helped confirm in my mind, or at least added to, what I had found in accounts of previous centuries, to be repeating patterns of the Jewish attitude toward themselves as compared to attitudes in other groups who had the same experiences.
          But it’s too long to go into while I am half asleep so I will save it for another time.

        • One of the oldest grave markers in what is now Berlin is a 2nd century grave of a daughter of a Rabbi.

          Ellen, this is all very interesting but I’m a bit doubtful about the sentence above. All the historical evidence indicates that the Roman legions never crossed the Elbe River. In their only concerted effort to do so, they were turned back in 9 A.D. at the famous “Battle of the Teutoburger Wald.” (Berlin lies about 60 miles east of the Elbe, as I recall.) The legions made periodic excusions across the Rhein River (beyond the Limes Germanicus) later in the First and Second Centuries, but did not approach the Elbe.

          During the Second Century, the lands beyond the Elbe were peopled by primitive East Germanic tribes (Vandals, Lombards, Goths, Burgunds, Suevi, etc.,) which had not yet migrated westward and southward into the realms of the Empire. Presumably, no significant trading activity occurred between the Empire and the barbarous territories beyond the Elbe. Also, trading between these trans-Elbe Germanic tribes and the Slavic and the Mongolo-Turkic tribes further eastward could not have been very stable and lucrative.

          So my question is, What would have brought a Jewish rabbi and his family, and perhaps a Jewish community, to that wilderness at that time? Knowing that you – like me – lived in Germany for years, I’ll bet you might be curious about that, too. Is it possible that this is just another heritage-enhancing tale?

        • demize says:

          These are the great threads. I’d also add Judah P Benjamin, Secretary of State for The Confederacy and lifelong friend of Jefferson Davis to that list.

        • Ellen says:

          American, yes, please do. Why the self identity of the victim took hold has surely many reasons. And is not without foundation — especially with the emergence political Christianity. But victims were everywhere and not limited to Jewish culture. By adopting the eternal victim meme so much history and truth is lost.

        • Ellen says:

          Thomas, what would have brought a Jewish rabbi and his family into the heathen wilderness in the Antik?

          During this time there was a brief, (about 200 years) but strong Judaic Proselytizing movement that reached well beyond the borders of the Roman empire.

          There has been practically no documentation of this other than brief mention. But here is one excellent preserved documentation:

          link to scribd.com

          Sorry, it is in German, but on page 42, is a photo of the gave with the inscription: “here rests Sigismundus husband of Sarra…”
          As the author says a son born to Jewish parents of that time would not have the name Sigismundus and that it concerns a Germanic convert or Slave who became a Jew. (There was trade in slaves as all other goods.)

          Page 41: Grave marker reads “Cresce Sinicerius, Jewish Proselyte, lived 35 years.”

          Page 46: “Irene, house Sklavin, Prostelzsed by Father and Mother to Judin, Israelitin. Lived 3 years, 7 months, 1 day.”

          As the author explains, the parents were heathen slaves who converted and became Proselytizers and their daughter born in a Jewish home was received as a Jew and “Israelite.”

          The Proselytizing movement succeeded in converting the royal house of Adiabene (the Northern Mesopotamian empire) to Judaism in the 1st century.

          Unfortunately, I cannot find another source of the marker found outside of Berlin. I just remember reading about the spectacular find. But knowing what we do about the Proselytizing movement in those early centuries AD, it fits.

        • But knowing what we do about the Proselytizing movement in those early centuries AD, it fits.

          Thanks, Ellen. Very interesting.

      • annie says:

        i should have been clearer about my meaning of disproportionate. i meant more than 2%, their equivalent in american society. for example code pink and our delegation to gaza. i didn’t mean they were the predominate force in the civil rights movement, of course that was a black movement. but i was a kid when that was going on. i’m speaking from my personal experience wrt my own affiliations. i don’t think it serves any of us to degrade jewish contributions to our society because we’re mad at the lobby. that’s not going to empower us..at all.

        • GuiltyFeat says:

          Annie, why do you think so many of the people between your two posts ARE keen to degrade Jewish contributions? Is it really just because they’re mad at the lobby or do you think they’re trying to make a point that has nothing to do with Israel and the Palestinians?

          This is without doubt the scariest thread I’ve seen since I started posting here.

        • American says:

          I don’t think anyone is trying to degrade.
          It’s matter of claim of traits about a group.

          It would take a preeminent statistician and preeminent historian and preeminent sociologist all working together to come up with a statistical analysis of any “group’s” traits that could be conclusive in any way about a specific group.

          What happens is that people use ‘examples” or ‘samples” out of a group when they want to show something.
          But they haven’t compared whatever trait in question to another or other groups.
          For instance in the civil rights supporters question someone will say Jews were more involved than Christians and point to certain Jews and say because of smaller numbers of Jews they were over represented in the cause. But no one, at least so far as I know, has actually done a study on how many whites or Buddhist or etc. were involved and it’s not common to see whites or Christians or etc. claiming they were more involved than another group in civil rights. So no one is really interested enough to challenge a claim that basically isn’t important to anyone except to whoever is making the claim.

          People can ascribe traits to different groups and it might have some credibility because it is based on what they observe or what is considered ‘common knowledge’…but it’s not always accurate in unviersal terms.
          To absolutely state a ‘certain’ trait or value is particular to or dominate in one group ‘more so’ than others it would have to be proven that it is more so by a statistical analysis and comparison of a lot of other groups on the exact same trait and then you would have to study the variables and rule out the individual markers within the group and so on.

          I am sure somewhere out there someone has produced a huge study on group values and traits but I’ve never delved into the subject in depth so can’t refer you to a good source.

        • American says:

          GF,

          What’s scary about it?
          What if the discussion had started off with the claim ‘all’ Jews or as a ‘group’ were over represented in treasonous acts against the US and that was a ‘trait’ of Jews and someone had challenged or debunked that?
          I could give an example on that by pointing to the AIPAC member back in the 70′s who got tattled on by a fellow Jew he had approached for help in political scheme because he thought the guy’s plan was underhanded and injurious to the US. Or I could have used German Jew Amb Dean as an example.

          We are equal opportunity challengers. You just have to get use to being equal.

        • patm says:

          “…scariest thread”

          How in blazes do you think the Palestinians of Sheikh Jarrah felt when these white shirt thugs paraded through their neighbourhood? Do you think they might have felt a tad scared?

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Scarier than Stars of David being painted onto storefronts, GF? In Hebron? By whom, remind us?

        • Citizen says:

          Yeah, pretty amazing, GuiltyFeat, you witness via video clip the most violent nationalistic racists, with the old standby–a million flags, and you are not scared by that vision, a real one happening now, captured on film–instead, you are scared by comments under it deploring it. So you like some preliminary pogrom activity, but not others? Is it that you’d have favored a less orderly Hitler youth rally; you like your favored crowd hate-spewing and calls for mass murder with less aesthetic attached? The less anal old time Russian and Ukranian pogroms are more your style, perps and victims exchanged? What, which is it, GF?

    • Shmuel says:

      What has Zionism done to Jewish identity?

      Political Zionism was one of various ideas that vied for the hearts and minds of European Jews, in the wake of emancipation and secularisation. It is, for the most part, a modern, secular ideology, couched in ancient, religious terms. To the extent that it does express some traditional Jewish “values”, it tends to emphasise the very worst of them. Tragically, Israel and Zionism have come to dominate Jewish discourse and identity today. But it doesn’t have to be that way. Judaism(s) can and should strive to express the best universal values of the age, in its (their) own cultural and/or religious idiom – as all societies and cultures should. In this sense, Zionism is destroying Judaism.

      That is how I understand Phil’s rhetorical question, which is also mine.

      • Citizen says:

        Shmuel, that’s how I understood Phil’s rhetorical question too. Similarly, what have the KKK, or the Christian Zionists, or the Inquisition, for further example, done to Christian identity? What has some terrorist groups done to Muslim identity? What have pedophile priests done to Roman Catholic identity? What do Irish drunks do to Irish identity? How about Madoff to Jewish identity, or the quite a few past Jewish finacial scam artists that made the news, etc. How does the Mafia harm Italian identity? Black street gangs and drive-by shootings harm African American identity? And so on. And look at German identity these days….

  2. Kathleen says:

    “may your village burn down” these are some really sick mother fuckers

  3. Freud was born in 1856. His father’s hat was knocked off his father’s head sometime in the 1860′s.

  4. Elliot says:

    Did this take place at Sheikh Jarrah? Looks like some part of Jerusalem and there is a gas station (Sonol?) near the regular S.J. demo location.

    • annie says:

      yes it did take place in sheikh jarrah

      • wow. even sicker. these people are TERRORIZING the community of Sheikh Jarrah.

        • tree says:

          Jerusalem is slowly becoming Hebron.

        • seafoid says:

          Hebron is Israel’s shame. I don’t know how anyone who believes in tikkun olam can tolerate what a devoted group of deluded Brooklyn Jews has done to that city.

        • annie says:

          yeah they are marching thru the muslim quarter, in the video at the ynet links it opens with people holding the palestinian flag on top of the building right about them. it’s really disgusting and disgraceful. i don’t know why the government facilitates this, it is truly mindboggling.

          this is supposed to be the holy city and they’ve named this jerusalem day..then they celebrate it like this. complete opposite of holy.

  5. munro says:

    Retweet link doesn’t seem to work.

    • Citizen says:

      It quit working for me a couple of weeks ago. I wish the MW techies would look into this. I talked to Twitter & they said MW uses a 3rd party application to retweet so they can’t fix it. I can retweet any blog post from any other blog or website, but I can no longer retweet MW posts.

  6. es1982 says:

    This isn’t Zionism as a whole, just one branch of it. This is the shameful racist, extremist far right wing religious Zionism (members of this branch, by the way, are pretty much the only people in Israel, other than government officials, that actually celebrate Jerusalem Day). This isn’t Judaism as a whole, either. It does not represent the majority of Jews and Zionists in Israel.

    I’m a Zionist Israeli, and I’m just as ashamed as you by these racists.

    • annie says:

      This is the shameful racist, extremist far right wing religious Zionism

      i know, but there sure are a hella lot of them aren’t there? and the government seems to be facilitating their growth.

      do you think there are enough of them to form their own militia? me too. or just dominate the idf. i wonder how many of these people are in or have been in the idf? do you think they take their ideology with them when they serve?

      me too.

      • es1982 says:

        Yes, unfortunately. I don’t dispute the fact that there are a lot of racists in Israel and that the current government is no good. I just disputed the assertion that “this is Zionism”.

        • annie says:

          I just disputed the assertion that “this is Zionism”.

          well, it is zionism. don’t you mean ‘this is not the only face of zionism’ ?

        • es1982 says:

          I do mean that this isn’t the only face of Zionism, but I also think that saying that “this is Zionism” rather than a form of Zionism implies that it is representative of all Zionists. Would you say about extremist evangelical Christians “this is Christianity”?

        • Donald says:

          It’s best to be precise. This is rightwing Zionism, the people who are openly racist and proud of it. Then there are the liberal Zionists, who are a diverse lot themselves and vary in their opinions from people who are racist and defend Israeli war crimes (we have one or two like that around here) to people like Jerome Slater, who condemn most of what Israel does but still believe in the ideology. And actually, there are also Zionists like Jerry Haber who wants a one state solution with equal rights for everyone.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Would you say about extremist evangelical Christians ‘this is Christianity’?”

          I would, (depending on how the term “extremist” is defined.) Because when it comes to ideology, one cannot pick and choose what it represents and ignore the bad parts, unless the ideology is working to extracate itself from those bad parts. Since Christianity is not doing that with its extremist branch, then it is a fair assessment to say that.

        • annie says:

          Would you say about extremist evangelical Christians “this is Christianity”?

          but i didn’t say this was the face of judaism. go ahead and connote zionism w/judaism if you want to but don’t put words in my mouth.

        • Don says:

          As usual, I agree with Donald’s keen insight and extraordinarily intelligent view.

          ES1982…And I like your comments as well.

        • Ellen says:

          es1982, is Zionism a religion? Now, that is a new one.

          Isn’t it a social political movement that emerged in the late 19th century when ideas of race and blood and soil were gaining traction in Europe after the establishment of modern nation states like Germany and Italy? Zionism is a ideology based on bogus race-based identity.

          And you get some property with it too! But only if you are the “right” race.

        • es1982 says:

          Perhaps evangelicals/Christianity isn’t a good example, because it seems like I’m implying that Zionism is a religion, or that Zionism equals Judaism. I’m not. I wanted to give an example of a subgroup within a larger group. Maybe a better analogy would have been to ask whether you could say about Jean-Marie Le Pen’s supporters that “this is France”.

        • marc b. says:

          unfortunately zionism cannot be completely separated from religion. that’s part of the problem. even ‘liberal’ zionists apparently base their support for the zionist project, in part at least, on the ‘historical’ right of jews to the territory of eretz israel.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Maybe a better analogy would have been to ask whether you could say about Jean-Marie Le Pen’s supporters that ‘this is France’.”

          People have said that, and worse. But even then, the right wing in France is miniscule compared to what it is in Israel.

        • Bumblebye says:

          es1982
          Since Israel was founded by “Zionism”, since its laws – especially the “Basic Laws” – are founded on Zionist principles, then arguably, Judaism is the subgroup within the Zionism itself. To be legitimate, don’t all political parties – even Palestinian-Israeli ones – have to accept these supremacist laws (ie in their constitutions)?

        • es1982 says:

          “People have said that, and worse. But even then, the right wing in France is miniscule compared to what it is in Israel.”

          Is it really? A few years ago, Le Pen got more votes than the Socialist candidate in presidential elections and made it to the run-off. Polls show his daughter may be able to reach a run-off in the next election.

        • es1982 says:

          Bumblebye, I’m not quite sure I understand your argument. That Israel was founded as a Jewish State doesn’t make Judaism a subgroup of Zionism. Zionism is more of a subgroup of Judaism, although even that is far from accurate.

          As for political parties, the law says that parties can be denied the right to run in Knesset elections if they oppose the Jewish and/or democratic character of the state. I think they should only be required to support democracy. In practice, the only party ever to be barred from running was Kahana’s Kach, because it was an undemocratic party. Arab parties don’t support the concept of a Jewish state (nor do I expect them to), but are free to run in elections, despite the right wing’s repeated attempts to bar their participation.

        • American says:

          I think you are correct….Herzl zionism about seperation or call it Zionism- ‘Lite’ as opposed to 1948 forward, ‘conquest Zionism’.
          But the thing is, even zionism lite is like being half in and half out.
          If you can’t get rid of what these thugs represent and return what zionism has taken from the Palestines is Israel or zionism worth it? Are zionist lites going to take them on in Israel?
          Looks like you will have too because the US isn’t.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Is it really? A few years ago, Le Pen got more votes than the Socialist candidate in presidential elections and made it to the run-off. Polls show his daughter may be able to reach a run-off in the next election.”

          Yeah, Le Pen beat Jospin in the First Round. By 0.7%. And in the Second Round, he picked up 700,000 votes (over his First Round total) and Chirac? Chirac pick up TWENTY MILLION additional votes. Tell me again how big the NF is in France…

          And, yes, Marine LePen may be able to reach the Second Round, but only because Dominique Strauss-Kahn, who was the strong challenger to face Sarkozy, suddenly finds himself busy in New York for a while.

          In ’07, the NF got less than 11% of the vote. Do you really expect us to believe that the settlers and the right wingers and religious parties in Israel represent less than 11% of the electorate??? If they do, then political reform should be your #1 goal, because they’re running your ship of state.

        • Bumblebye says:

          I don’t think you’ll find the word “Jewish” in my comment. Israel was founded on Zionist principles of segregation, exclusivism and preferment for Jews above all others, and with a very covetous eye on the rest of Palestine! It’s all there in the words of the original leaders.

        • lysias says:

          I’m not sure it’s quite right to call the Le Pens’ party the Front National racist or the like. They are quite vociferous in their support of the harkis (Algerian Muslims who fought on the French side in the Algerian War of Independence, and who either fled to France or were killed in Algeria after France lost that war.)

          Harkis : le véritable scandale est ailleurs !:

          Qu’il s’agisse des propos de Frêche, de Bussereau ou d’autres, le scandale n’est pas dans les mots mais dans les actes criminels que la gauche et la droite ont initiés ou cautionnés en abandonnant nos compatriotes harkis, Français par le sang risqué et par le sang versé, à un sort tragique.

          . . .

          Le Front National demande aux rapatriés et aux Harkis, de démontrer par leur vote, qu’on ne peut impunément insulter la mémoire et l’honneur de celles et ceux qui, civils ou militaires, sont tombés pour défendre le respect de la parole donnée et l’honneur de la France.

        • annie says:

          I just disputed the assertion that “this is Zionism”.

          you are not supposed to use quotes unless you are quoting someone. you initiated this subthread and inserted zionism into it perhaps in response to phil’s question. you acknowledge this is a branch of zionism and instead of addressing phil’s question you are now disputing an ‘assertion’ no one made using quotes as if someone did.

          What has Zionism done to Jewish identity? I ask that question a million times a day, but this video of Jerusalem day, June 1, is particularly poignant.

          try addressing the question instead of a strawman. no one claimed this march represented every zionist. but the settlements, the settlers, the religious right and the far right/secular, lukid..all of them for the most part extreme and zionist. what has zionism done to jewish identity? it’s a fair question as the right continues to grow in israel.

        • Sumud says:

          I just disputed the assertion that “this is Zionism”.

          Perhaps rather that back-and-forthing over how representative this hideous clip is, let’s hang some numbers on it. From just over a year ago [my emphasis]:

          The poll showed that many students believe the phrase “Death to Arabs” is racist, and, therefore, not legitimate. Forty-five percent of religious students and 16% of secular students, however, believe it is a legitimate statement.
          Poll: 46% of high-schoolers don’t want equality for Arabs

          Not a survey, but anecdotal accounts of the recurrence of the same genocidal desires among Israeli youth [again, my emphasis]:

          In one case, a 12th grade student of a northern Israeli school wrote “Death to the Arabs” on a test in civics class. In another case, a high school student from Tel Aviv stood up during class, and to the horror of his teacher declared that his dream is to volunteer for the Border Guard, “so that I can spray Arabs to death.” His friends welcomed the announcement with applause.

          Moreover, civics teachers around the country have been finding graffiti on the walls of their classrooms, bearing slogans ranging from “Kahane was right” to “A good Arab is a dead Arab.” Other statements incite against the ultra-Orthodox sector and against refugees.
          Student’s answer on civics test: Death to Arabs

          This phrase “death to arabs” and others like it keep popping up. Lawrence of Cyberia did a post in 2009 documenting the graffiti in Hebron and across Palestine and Israel, some of it directly invoking the Shoah (“gas the arabs”, “arabs to the gas chambers”, “exterminate the muslims”):

          And when it’s all over,
          my dear, dear reader,
          on which benches will we have to sit,
          those of us who shouted “Death to the Arabs!”
          and those who claimed they “didn’t know”?

          Quote of the Week: Aharon Shabtai

          Nobody, but NOBODY, will ever be able to claim they didn’t know what was happening.

          es1982 ~ I don’t think this is representative of all zionists, but it sure does represent a lot. If the numbers in that Ynet survey are accurate then the lunatics are reaching a critical mass, and just as they’re about to enlist in the IDF. The second article goes into how dissenting voices in favour of human rights are drowned out among the student population. This is scene setting for genocide.

    • Woody Tanaka says:

      “This isn’t Zionism as a whole, just one branch of it.”

      This is no excuse. If these were neo-Nazis in Germany would you react the same way you do, shrugging your shoulders and excusing the racist ideology that spurned them, if the German government facilitated the neo-Nazis the way your government facilitates these people?

      • es1982 says:

        Again, I’m not excusing this inexcusable behavior. I’m disputing the premise of the first line of the post. Had Phil not started this with “what has Zionism done to Jewish identity” you’d hear nothing but condemnation for these racists from me.

        • Elliot says:

          I witnessed these “White Shirts” (great term, Phil) marching on previous “Jerusalem Days”. I heard racist slogans and witnessed implied violence against Palestinians. The opening rally for the march was attended by leading dignitaries. The President of the State of Israel addressed the marchers. Of course, this august gathering (at Yeshivat Mercaz Harav, in Kiryat Moshe, Jerusalem) was purely celebratory and ideological, but it was the kick-off for a naked show of force against the city’s Palestinian population.

          Imagine if the U.S. President was complicit in anything remotely similar?

          The White Shirts are insiders. As such they are representative of the kosher spectrum of Israeli politics. It’s fair to hold Israel and Zionism to account on their behalf.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Had Phil not started this with ‘what has Zionism done to Jewish identity’…”

          What is wrong with that statement?? Looking at the videos and the photos, what does one see? Yarmulkes, Stars of David, the Western Wall, spoken and written Hebrew. If these things are not emblems of Jewish identity, then nothing is. And what is coming out of the mouths of these people is nothing less than the predictable results of the ideology of Zionism. Perhaps not the only one, but certainly an undeniable one.

          So if these people are, for all the world to see, draping in the emblems of centuries and millenia of Jewish identity and shouting things of the vilest sort in order to, in their minds, advance the Zionist project, then Phil’s statement is wholly defensible.

          I think that your issue shouldn’t be with Phil, but with your country and your ideology’s inability or unwillingness to address the evil seed — a seed that has found fertile soil in all of those people in the videos and pictures — that is contained within it.

        • annie says:

          I witnessed these “White Shirts” (great term, Phil) marching on previous “Jerusalem Days”.

          oh yeah, it is nothing new. it’s israel’s version of the orange walk.

        • lysias says:

          Sounds a lot like the celebrations the Orange Order used to hold in Northern Ireland on July 12th, Orangemen’s Day.

        • Danaa says:

          es1982 – the analogy invoked by this post is to the brown shirts, for example, in Hungary. Where I can also assure you they did not represent the entire Hungarian population. Neither did they in Germany. yet, look what happened.

          The point is, it starts with a few hundreds, then it becomes 1000′s. Then one day, it’s over 10,000. In Israel, with comparatively smaller population than Germany or Hunagary that’s already a very large proportion. Combine that with results of a recent poll that indicated that a majority of high school students in Israel don’t think that palestinians should have equal rights in Israel or have a state of their own in the OTs, and you are looking at a big problem. The same polls BTW showed that over 30%(!) of the high school students thought transfer of palestinians from israel and/or the West bank is a good idea. Since the poll included non Jewish citizens of israel, the relative proportion among the jewish sub-population is even larger.

          So unfortunately, this demonstration is the reality of a far more substantial segment of the population than you care to acknowledge. And these are young people, many – if not most – kippa wearing. Hence the judaism association.

          As an aside, speaking of relative comparisons, this demonstration by several thousands would be the equivalent of 250,000 Ku Klux Klan in the states. You think the US community would stand still for 250 K of KKKs descending upon washington DC? and what these guys were shouting is even worse than what’s uttered at KKK gatherings…..

    • Kathleen says:

      Is Zionism racist at its core? Some believe it is. And give solid reasoning to back this up
      link to counterpunch.org

      November 8 / 9, 2003
      Zionism as a Racist Ideology
      Reviving an Old Theme to Prevent Palestinian Ethnicide

      pages on zionism = racism
      link to google.com

      • es1982 says:

        Zionism, at its core, is a national movement (not a nationalist or racist movement – and there is a difference) that believes in the Jewish people’s right to self-determination. Most Zionists don’t believe we’re better than others, just that we believe we have the same right to our own country as other nations do.

        In a way, you can compare Zionism to feminism in the fact that some say feminism means believing women are superior to men (like some say Zionism is believing Jews are better than Arabs and others), while in truth, most feminists believe in gender equality. I’m sure this comparison will piss the hell out of most of you, but I really do think it is an appropriate analogy.

        • tree says:

          Most Zionists don’t believe we’re better than others, just that we believe we have the same right to our own country as other nations do.

          No other country has this mythical “same right” you claim.There is no other nation that considers all people of one religion, regardless of where they live, as holding rights in that country. Why is this so hard for Zionists to understand? Israel considers itself the State of the Jews, regardless of where they live. That is a major anomaly among all nations and grants more rights to foreign Jews than it does to the inhabitants of “your own country” who are not Jews, including the right to live in Israel for any Jew, while negating the rights of the non-Jewish inhabitants of Israel/Palestine. This negation includes ethnically cleansing those non-Jews, in catastrophic measures in the past, and in relentless slow-motion today.

          Do you support the right of return for the Palestinians forced out of Israel? If no, then you can not claim to be supporting equality, and since Zionism has never renounce the ethnic cleansing it instigated, it can’t claim to be “for equality” either. Nor has it renounced the grossly unequal treatment it affords to Jews versus non-Jews (most particularly Arab non-Jews.) Unless of course you think that it would be perfectly OK for European countries to ethnically cleanse Jews, and treat those that remain as lesser citizens as well. Then I suppose you could claim to be a believer in a perverse form of equality: one that allows the majority, or the ones in power, of whatever ethnicity or religion they might belong to, to treat those of the out-group with contempt and injustice.

          In a way, you can compare Zionism to feminism in the fact that some say feminism means believing women are superior to men (like some say Zionism is believing Jews are better than Arabs and others), while in truth, most feminists believe in gender equality. I’m sure this comparison will piss the hell out of most of you, but I really do think it is an appropriate analogy.

          It doesn’t piss me off. It just shows me you have little concept of what real equality is. Some who call themselves feminists are not true feminists, but feminism does not call for the reversal of roles such that women should be the oppressors of men. Zionism, in word and action, has sought to become the oppressor of non-Jews living in Israel/Palestine. The oppressed becoming the oppressor is not “equality”. Its just more oppression. When Israel can proudly call itself the state of all of its citizens(and those it brutally controls but refuses to grant citizenship), instead of insisting it is the state of the Jews, then Israel can proudly claim that it is not racist. But it will have to give up Zionism to do that, because racism and oppression of non-Jews is at Zionism’s core.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Zionism, at its core, is a national movement (not a nationalist or racist movement – and there is a difference) that believes in the Jewish people’s right to self-determination. Most Zionists don’t believe we’re better than others, just that we believe we have the same right to our own country as other nations do.”

          What you are describing is a nationalist movement. I don’t think that there is any distinction between “nationalist” and “national” in this context, save for whatever idiosyncratic one you are grafting on “nationalist.”

          “In a way, you can compare Zionism to feminism…”

          False analogy. Feminism doesn’t demand that men sacrifice their rights to the exclusive benefit of women.
          Zionism, on the other hand, demands that the Palestinians sacrifice their rights (to their homeland, to their self-determination, and in many cases, to their lives, liberty, property and happiness) to the exclusive benefit of the Jews. Big difference.

          Had the Jews enacted a plan to exercise their self-determination in a land which was not already populated, or in a land in which it was already the native population, then your anolgy might make sense. But those things are not true, so it is foolish to pretend that the situation is different than what it actually is.

        • es1982 says:

          Zionism, on the other hand, demands that the Palestinians sacrifice their rights (to their homeland, to their self-determination, and in many cases, to their lives, liberty, property and happiness) to the exclusive benefit of the Jews. Big difference.

          Zionists who support a two state solution do not deny the Palestinians’ right to a homeland and self-determination. As for the Palestinian citizens of Israel, they should have equal rights. The equality of Arabs within Israel certainly is one of the major problems we have to fix.

        • tree says:

          Zionists who support a two state solution do not deny the Palestinians’ right to a homeland and self-determination.

          Of course they do, unless they support the right of return of Palestinians to their homes, whether they be in Israel or the mythical and ever-shrinking Palestinian state. You can’t say, yes, you deserve a homeland but it has to be over there, instead of here where you were born, and claim that you aren’t being discriminatory. But that’s Zionism for you.

          Again, since there is a State of all Jews in Israel, would it be OK for other countries to expel their Jews and say, hey, you’ve got a right to a homeland in Israel, but not in the state in which you were born? Do you have no problem with that?

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Zionists who support a two state solution do not deny the Palestinians’ right to a homeland and self-determination.”

          But the problem with your position (regarding this analogy) is that it is not Zionism’s Year Zero. You can’t just simply take the current situation and state that everything that went before it is irrelevant.

          Even the Zionists who support the two-state solution have already denied the Palestinians’ right, their right to their entire homeland, and their self-determination from, either 48 or 67, depending on the specific Palestinians you’re talking about.

          This is why the right of return is so important and why, if there is to be a comprehensive solution, Israel is going to have to pay significant compensation for those who were refugees, and not merely a token amount.

        • seafoid says:

          “Most Zionists don’t believe we’re better than others”

          Tell us about Gaza again, habibi .

        • American says:

          Hummm…well I think you are way off on that and Tree is right.
          Zionism can’t possibility consider itself equal and not superior to others or it couldn’t have taken anothers land for their own and displaced people …not to mention continuing to steal it for 60 years.
          Yea, I know the holocaust is used as the main justification for this, but to use the holocuast to justify it you would have had to take some German land not Palestines.

        • lyn117 says:

          Zionism may be a national movement that believes in the Jewish people’s right to self-determination, but it also believes that non-Jewish Palestinian Arabs don’t have the right to live in or have equal rights in their own native land.

        • lyn117 says:

          As for the so-called “Jewish people’s right to self-determination”, the right to self-determination is in fact a right accorded to peoples who suffer under colonization or colonial dominance. Zionism is a colonial movement. The Jewish Zionists are colonists. They have no right to self-determination outside their lands of origin, which would be Europe and elsewhere.

          Trust the zionists, in their propaganda efforts, to pervert the language until it loses all meaning – similarly calling the removal of illegal settlers “ethnic cleansing.” At at the same time they practice ethnic cleansing against the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine, and deny them their right to self-determination in their own land of origin.

        • RoHa says:

          “Zionism, at its core, is a national movement (not a nationalist or racist movement – and there is a difference) that believes in the Jewish people’s right to self-determination.”

          And that is where it goes wrong straight away. The Jewish “people” do not have that right. Assuming there is such a right, it is a right of all the people resident in a territory.

          (For my arguments on this, see

          link to mondoweiss.net )

          “we have the same right to our own country as other nations do.”

          There is no such right.

          “like some say Zionism is believing Jews are better than Arabs and others”

          Zionist clearly have the idea that what Jews want is more important than what anyone else wants.

          The basic idea of Zionism was that Jews would take over Palestine and make it into a state regardless of the wishes or interests of the native inhabitants.

          That means that the rights of Palestinians, the needs of Palestinians, the interests of Palestinians, and the desires of Palestinians must all be secondary to the wishes of Jews. First the Jews must get what they want. The Palestinians can have the leftovers.

          In Saleema’s words, “We matter and you don’t”.

        • RoHa says:

          “Zionists who support a two state solution do not deny the Palestinians’ right to a homeland and self-determination.”

          When you say “homeland” you are using Zionist ideas. The Palestinians want to go home.

          Of course, I don’t think the Palestinian “people” have a right to self-determination.
          I think that Palestinians have
          (a) a right to be full and equal citizens of any state established in Palestine
          (b) right of return

        • demize says:

          Ahh the magnanimous liberal zionist in his natural environment : I appropriate your home for my homeland and allow you to live in the basement.

        • annie says:

          In a way, you can compare Zionism to feminism in the fact that some say feminism means believing women are superior to men (like some say Zionism is believing Jews are better than Arabs and others), while in truth, most feminists believe in gender equality. I’m sure this comparison will piss the hell out of most of you, but I really do think it is an appropriate analogy.

          you think it will piss people off when you think an appropriate analogy is one you’ve just thrashed? feminism is not about believing women are superior to men nor do feminists seek majority status to seek self determination. as you say feminism seeks equality. furthermore in their quest for equality they don’t have to trample the rights of others, break international law and become thieves.

          Zionism, at its core, is a national movement (not a nationalist or racist movement – and there is a difference) that believes in the Jewish people’s right to self-determination.

          no it isn’t, not at it’s core. had it been manifested on a land with no other people you might be able to say that but it wasn’t.

          let me give you an analogy. what if i posited a higher form of spirituality and self determination was thru not working and meditating all day and i gave that a name, say lazisim. it just so happens the best way i think lazism can be fulfilled is to imprison workers and turn them into slaves. now ideally there is nothing really immoral about lazisim because at it’s core it is self determination thru spiritual means.

          by divorcing the process in which zionism fulfills itself from the ‘ideal’ of zionism you then claim the ideal is the core of what it is. but in actuality at the core of zionism is the theft of another’s land to actualize your self determination just like at the core of lazisim is slavery. now, if one could hang around meditation all day and make ends meet by some other means..i don’t think i would have a problem with lazisim. but after 60 years you’d be hard pressed to get others to believe lazisim is really divorced from slavery.

          i would stop supporting lazism until they got rid of the slaves. instead they keep getting more and more slaves. for 60 years more and more slaves but at it’s core lazisim is about self determination? you’ve got to be kidding me!

          telling us zionism at its core is about jewish self determination is a lie. it’s theft and ethnic cleansing at its core. actions speak louder than words. reject zionsim and quit supporting it til it ends it’s addiction to theft and ethnic cleansing. why should it stop when they get so much support for it? like from people like you?

        • es1982 says:

          You can’t say, yes, you deserve a homeland but it has to be over there, instead of here where you were born, and claim that you aren’t being discriminatory.

          First of all, most of the Palestinian diaspora wasn’t born here. Second of all, yes, we can say that the Palestinian homeland is the future Palestinian State, because it is the only way for both the Jewish people and the Palestinian people to each have a homeland. Both Jews and Palestinians have historical ties to the entire land, from the Jordan to the Sea, but in one single state either both sides will not be able to exercise their self-determination, or only the side in the majority will.

          Again, since there is a State of all Jews in Israel, would it be OK for other countries to expel their Jews and say, hey, you’ve got a right to a homeland in Israel, but not in the state in which you were born? Do you have no problem with that?

          Your analogy is incorrect. There’s a difference between the situation now and the situation in 1948. Now, even after there will be a Palestinian State, Israel will have no right to expel its Arab citizens (just like it currently doesn’t have such a right). The War of Independence/Nakba was whole different story. It was a war of mutual ethnic cleansing and its outcome cannot be undone.

        • annie says:

          1982, you are highjacking the thread and spreading lots of propaganda.

        • Citizen says:

          RE: “Both Jews and Palestinians have historical ties to the entire land, from the Jordan to the Sea.”

          Gee, I thought there was a difference between the people who’ve lived in said area for thousands of years (Palestinians), and those who came in the 20th Century, mostly since the later 1940s (European Jews). Also, since when is the bible a credible history book? The comparatively very sparse Jewish population of said area, say, in the 1920-30s, is well documented and easily found on the internet, and has been documented here on MW many times.

          Yes, there is a difference between the situation now and the situation between mid-1947 & the immediate aftermath of the ’48 war, which took place mainly on the Palestinian partition side of the former Mandate land: Half the 750,000 natives were kicked out before, and half were kicked out afterward. And of course, since then (as of 1967), 500,000 Jews have grabbed ever more land by force. The Nakba is thus NOT “a whole different story.” All the ethnic cleansing had been done by Jews.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          First of all, most of the Palestinian diaspora wasn’t born here.

          “Your Honor, while it is true that I murdered my parents, please show me mercy; I am an orphan after all…”

          Second of all, yes, we can say that the Palestinian homeland is the future Palestinian State, because it is the only way for both the Jewish people and the Palestinian people to each have a homeland.

          But the issue here is Zionism’s inherent racism, which requires looking at the entirety of Zionism’s history, not merely today. Your assertion assumes that the Jews have a right to a homeland in Palestine, even though, at the time Zionism was created, the Jewish population in Palestine was minuscule. Zionism basically said that the native Palestinians’ rights had to be tossed aside in favor of a horde of invading foreign Jews. That’s evil.

          Both Jews and Palestinians have historical ties to the entire land, from the Jordan to the Sea,

          What does this matter? Even if, in the ancient past, some piece of land was owned by Jews, that does not mean that some other set of Jews, thousands of years later, has any claim on that land. At the time Zionism was invented, the Jewish population of Palestine was minuscule. That is the key point.

          …but in one single state either both sides will not be able to exercise their self-determination, or only the side in the majority will.

          Again, you are trying to declare today’s situation to be a Year Zero, whereby everything that precedes it to be irrelevant. That’s nonsense. While the most moral solution to the problems created by the invasion of foreign Jews into Palestine may be two states, that does not justify that invasion post facto.

          There’s a difference between the situation now and the situation in 1948.

          Yes, but the situation in 1947-1948 is closer to the proper timeframe to examine, in order to properly characterize Zionism than today, because the crimes against humanity and war crimes committed by the Jews in 1947-1948, (as well as those before and after) show Zionism in action.

          Now, even after there will be a Palestinian State, Israel will have no right to expel its Arab citizens (just like it currently doesn’t have such a right).

          Tell that to the fascists that you people regularly elect.

          The War of Independence/Nakba was whole different story. It was a war of mutual ethnic cleansing and its outcome cannot be undone.

          No, the Nakba was a one-sided, premeditated attack against a people, the culmination of decades of Zionist plotting and the predictable outcome of Zionist ideology. That the Palestinians fought to preserve their land from the foreign criminals trying to steal it and trying to drive them from their land at gunpoint does not make anything “mutual” unless, to paraphrase Churchill, you can see no difference between the fire and the fire brigade.

        • es1982 says:

          1982, you are highjacking the thread [...]

          I’m not hijacking the thread as long as what I say (especially in my original comment) has to do with the contents of the post – in this case, the first paragraph. It’s not my fault that people on this website tend to reply to my comments by claiming the very idea of Israel is illegitimate, thus moving away from the original topic to a certain degree.

          And by the way, hasn’t Kathleen “hijacked” the thread no less than me when she started a discussion of whether or not Jews are as pro-justice as they are considered? It’s legitimate to talk about it here in this particular thread – after all, that is the nature of conversations – they don’t always stay on the same exact topic.

          [...] and spreading lots of propaganda.

          When someone says something you agree with, it is the truth, and when you disagree with it it’s propaganda? I could just as well say this site is full of pro-Palestinian/anti-Zionist propaganda.

          Anyway, I’ll stop commenting on this post.

        • RoHa says:

          annie, you’ve just converted me to lazism. Where do I get my slaves?

    • Shingo says:

      es1982,

      Your comments are a breat if fresh air and admirable, but at the end of the day, it was inevitable that Zionism woudl lead to this, if not based on in from the beginning.

      I suspect you’re falling into the trap of evisioning Zionism as you would like it to be as opposed to the reality. All nationalist movements pave the way to some degree of Zenophobia, but what cannot be dispute about Zionism is that from the beginning, it was basedon the premise that the indigenous population would have to be displaced to create a Jewish homeland.

      Given that no population will ever agree to such a notion, conflict and forced transfer would be innevitable, as would the dehumanization that ensues.

  7. Gellian says:

    I watch this and I think,

    Where are the parents?

    • es1982 says:

      And where are their teachers? Probably rallying with them. The religious high school yeshivas are a hotbed for nationalistic racism, and they are, unfortunately, funded by the government. If it were up to me, all funding would stop and the rabbis (who are the teachers in the yeshivas) who promoted racist views would be indicted for incitement of violence.

      • Bumblebye says:

        es1982
        Instead, government has increased the salaries of new rabbis by 250%, proving their support (Shas, after all, holds the purse-strings) for this face of Zionism.
        link to failedmessiah.typepad.com

      • Ellen says:

        es1982, Zionism is nationalism and what we witness in that video, and even more vile episodes, is the natural path of all Nationalistic movements.

        The Torah and other religious texts are a series of metaphors for larger truths. The early Jews had it so right in rejecting a golden calf and all it symbolized, including the physical idolatry of symbols, lands, ownership of material.

        Jerusalem is a metaphor. Israel the Golden Calf.

        • seafoid says:

          I think the settlements are the golden calf in this instance, Ellen.
          Israel can still be made decent but YESHA is a doomed cult .

        • Ellen says:

          It could be made decent, but as long as the demands for a “Jewish” State or the “Land of Israel” dominate the public mind and political agenda for Israel, it has no chance in the long run.

          As any country — it must embrace it’s neighbors for long term survival. With increasing rabid nationalism, paranoia and fear, the more insecure Israel’s future becomes.

          The entire Holy Land is ours and we don´t have to apologize. It is the end of days. We have come home and it is time for the interlopers to leave.
          link to yesha.homestead.com

          link to yesha.homestead.com

        • decentjew says:

          Klan rallies could also “be made decent.” They should just allow people to participate in the festivities in a non-hostile environment, regardless of race or ethnicity.

          Of course– then it wouldn’t be a Klan rally any more.

          See my point?

    • Woody Tanaka says:

      “Where are the parents?”

      The parents are not primarily at fault. These people are old enough to make their own moral choices. And they choose evil. It is no excuse that they’re young.

      • Gellian says:

        I guess we could debate that, Woody. They all said I was a man when I turned 18 but looking back at that with the benefit of many more years, I think they were all crazy. I could have used a lot more hand-holding, and I’m one of the lucky ones who never made many of the stupid choices many of my friends did.

        But it raises another disturbing question, one that I’m sure I’ll catch heat for bringing up – because, yep, it’s a Nazi comparison.

        I look at the video again and it makes me think of the Hitlerjugend (Hitler youth brigade). Granted these kids are older. But with the Hitlerjugend and similar movements under communism, the kids were encouraged to snitch on their own parents to the authorities.

        I doubt that’s happening in Israel now. But if I were an Israeli politician, I’d be looking to co-opt this enthusiastic movement for my own purposes. And that can get pretty worrying.

        So again, I ask – Where are the parents? There’s still time to stop this.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          Gellian,

          Yeah, I guess we could. I’d say that what you’re talking about doesn’t mean that you weren’t a man or that you weren’t a moral actor; it simply meant that you were not as mature as you are now. But immaturity is not an excuse.

          Nevertheless, I do think that to the extent that the parents have blame it is in bringing up children who would even consider it proper to ever say such a thing. These marchers were not raised right.

          The question may, perhaps, not be “where are the parents” but, rather, “where *were* the parents” for the last decade or two when they were supposed to be teaching these kids not to be evil.

          And I, too, would be concerned about a politician harnessing or attempting to harness this level of hate and evil. It stinks of the 20th C.

        • lysias says:

          Not just Nazi. Stalinists glorified children who informed on their parents.

          Pavlik Morozov.

        • decentjew says:

          Parents?

          Why do you think the Israelis established the kibbutz policy? The whole idea was to wrench children from their parents so that they could be force-fed state propaganda until their minds were jello and they were converted into robot killing machines.

        • es1982 says:

          You’re confusing different things here. These aren’t kids from Kibbutizm. Nowadays, Kibbutzniks (who no longer sleep separately from their parents, by the way) are one of the most leftist peacenik groups there is in Israel.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Which honestly doesn’t say much, es. Kadima is supposed to be the Israeli idea of “moderate” and they are the ones who are directly answerable for the massacres of 2006 and 2008.

  8. Taxi says:

    Are these kids really the grandchildren of the ancient sage Abraham? They’re certainly not behaving like it. In fact they’re clearly behaving just like unhinged european skinheads.

  9. Elliot says:

    right, Annie. Sorry, I see that you already had that in the article.

  10. annie says:

    i urge everyone to go to the ynet link and look at the video there too. it give you another sense of the immensity of the crowd.

    • Kathleen says:

      Watched. The way Ynet describes the radical, racist, violent, hateful songs. “disturbing utterances”

      These protesters were promoting violence, hatred and death

      “The disturbing utterances were made during the traditional “Flag Dance” on the occasion of Jerusalem Day, which drew tens of thousands of Israelis to the capital to celebrate its unification following the 1967 Six-Day War.

  11. seafoid says:

    “How intractable is this conflict”

    For as long as it takes the Zionists to be reprogrammed

    link to cddc.vt.edu

    “The “free world” has become economically dependent on a fantastic system of stimulation of greed which cannot be fulfilled, sexual desire which cannot be satiated and hatred which has no outlet except against oneself, the persons one is supposed to love, or the revolutionary aspirations of pitiful, poverty-stricken marginal societies like Cuba or Vietnam [or the Palestinians, in Zionist Israel's case ]

  12. RE: “Look at all these boys in their white shirts…what can Americans be doing to wind these screwballs down?” – Weiss

    MY COMMENT: For these “white shirts”, Zionism has essentially become a regressive cult.
    It is therefore quite fitting that Glenn Beck will be holding his “Restoring Courage” rally in Jerusalem this August. As the old idiom goes, “birds of a feather flock together”!
    White City - link to white-city.net
    White City residence (luxury exclusive residence in Tel Aviv)
    [VIDEO, 10:00] – link to youtube.com

    • P.S. RE: “…these boys in their white shirts…these screwballs…” – Weiss & “White City” – me, above

      ALSO SEE: Pimping the Settlement Brand, By Richard Silverstein, Tikun Olam, 11/27/10 [WITH VIDEO, 02:12]

      (excerpts) A West Bank regional development council has produced a slick promo for settlement tourism which earnestly flogs the Occupation brand. The film, Harvest Time, is being screened regularly at a new $1-million visitor center established at the Psagot Winery…
      …The narrator continues…:
      You’ll see, someday the children of Israel will return to these lands [piano music swells and camera pans on Israeli flag fluttering over a settlement panorama, and then shows toddlers, wearing kippah naturally, playing at a playground].
      This is where you grew up. This is part of what you are, of who you are. We are here. [Don't look for it] anywhere [else]. And you, where are YOU going?

      It’s impressive in a slick, sleazy sort of way. It presents the settlements in the sort of romantic way they were envisioned just after the 1967 war: as elements of a quest for Jewish history and identity; as part of a fulfillment of the Zionist dream. What the film omits of course is all the horrendous history between 1967-2010: the theft, killings, religious hatred. The whole bloody mess. I can’t think of an Israeli film (or any film really) I’ve seen in a long time that is as ahistorical and fraudulent as this one

      ENTIRE COMMENTARY WITH VIDEO – link to richardsilverstein.com

  13. Kathleen says:

    Forgot to post this over here after reading great piece over at Race for Iran last night
    “Many Iranians feel that time is on their side and that there is little need for the country to negotiate with or even talk to a hostile American government. Over the years, so-called Iran experts in the United States have made many ludicrous predictions about the overthrow of the Islamic Republic of Iran. In the months and years ahead, these incurably confident triumphalists will, no doubt, continue to caricature Iran and see imminent signs of revolution in the slightest flicker of militancy. As long as the U.S. government relies on such advice, Iranians will continue to feel that talking to Americans is pointless and a waste of time. ”
    link to raceforiran.com
    AMERICAN MISREADING OF IRAN AND THE CHANGING REALITY OF THE MIDDLE EAST

  14. Jim Holstun says:

    I’d like to hear the translation confirmed–I don’t hear “aravim!” here.

    But it doesn’t really matter. This is a distraction. As long as we keep flipping back and forth between fascist Zionists who want to expel or kill Israeli Palestinians and steal more land, and liberal Zionists who just want hold onto the land they’ve already stolen while the refugees rot forever in camps, nothing at all will happen. Horror shows like this give liberal Zionists an occasion to proffer their lousy bona fides.

    • Elliot says:

      I heard:
      “Mah-vet la-ah-rah-vim” (Death to Arabs) – Hebrew
      and
      “It-bah el-Arab (Kill the Arab) – Arabic

      • Avi says:

        Elliot June 3, 2011 at 1:28 pm

        “It-bah el-Arab (Kill the Arab) – Arabic

        Elliot,

        Your Arabic is not bad at all.

        A slight correction, if I may…

        Ith-bah el-Arab —-> Means “Slaughter the Arabs”.

        Arabi — like the Hebrew Aravi is the singular form. Arab is the plural form in Arabic.

        Ith-Bah comes from the Arabic root Th – B – H, Thabaha, ذبح; as when cattle is slaughtered.

        A similar root in Hebrew is T – V – Kh, טבח, hence the noun Tevakh = Massacre.

    • Shmuel says:

      I’d like to hear the translation confirmed–I don’t hear “aravim!” here.

      Consider it confirmed.

      Another – rather ironic – chant that didn’t make it into the translation: “Yallah habaytah” (go home!).

  15. MRW says:

    Does anyone honestly think Germany is going to go along with this next September at the UN? Or France? Do you honestly think Germany wants to go through another reconciliation process with Muslims in their country two decades hence?

    I hope all the Europeans on this site get a copy of this to their elected officials.

    As for this hair-splitting about whether it is Zionism or the face of Zionism or this or that, people and countries the world over had no problem excoriating the Americans and their policy for the Iraq War during the Bush era. It was doubly so after this country reelected Bush Jr. because then we were seen to be the assholes (correctly) that approved what he did. And since it is commonly assumed that this country is Christian, the Christian groups were getting it as well, aided and abetted by cheerleaders like Ann Coulter calling on Americans to kill all Iraqis. We deserved every bit of the world’s opprobrium, and still do for these egregious wars.

    As the Israelis on this board know full well, the street terms for Israelis in Israel (and Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, etc) are “the Jews” and discussions are about the “Arabs and the Jews.” So getting all technical and touchy about it is inappropriate, especially when it intends to deflect outrage over scenes like the above here.

    Israel elected to become a nation. Criticism comes with the territory, and you don’t get to parse it.

  16. seafoid says:

    Israelis- if you tolerate this, your children will be next

    link to youtube.com

    • annie says:

      hmm

      This video contains content from SME. It is not available in your country.
      Sorry about that.

      so spare us the suspense. do tell!

      • seafoid says:

        It’s a song by the Manic street preachers about the Spanish Civil war that was number one during a few very progressive weeks in the UK in the late 90s and should be available elsewhere.

        The future teaches you to be alone
        The present to be afraid and cold
        So if i can shoot rabbits
        Then i can shoot fascists

        Bullets for your brain today
        But we’ll forget it all again
        Monuments put from pen to paper
        Turns me into a gutless wonder

        And if you tolerate this
        Then your children will be next
        And if you tolerate this
        Then your children will be next
        Will be next will be next will be next

        Gravity keeps my head down
        Or is it maybe shame
        At being so young and being so vain

        Holes in your head today
        But i’m a pacifist
        I’ve walked la ramblas
        But not with real intent

        And if you tolerate this
        Then your children will be next
        And if you tolerate this
        Then your children will be next
        Will be next will be next will be next will be next

        And on the street tonight an old man plays
        With newspaper cuttings of his glory days

        And if you tolerate this
        Then your children will be next
        And if you tolerate this
        Then your children will be next
        Will be next will be next will be next

  17. Woody Tanaka says:

    Oh, please. If you were to call for people to reject antisemitism, you would have no problem with the regulars on this site joining in, as they always do. (Contrast this with a call for the pro-Israeli people to categorically state that the ethnic cleansing is always wrong, and especially the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in 47-48. Talk about hemmin’ and hawin’)

    What they refuse to do, however, is to participate in some type of ritualized dance, whereby things which aren’t antisemitism are described as such because of its perceived political advantage to Israel; whereby the discussion of the antisemitism is motivated by the perceived political advantage to Israel; or whereby discussions of antisemitism are (as here) an attempt to distract from Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians.

    So, just to be clear: I wholeheartedly criticize and reject any virulent anti-semitism preached by Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the like, and any anti-semitism in the Arab/Muslim world.

    Now, with that out of the way, it is time to get back to the discussion of the virulent hatred displayed by these Zionists and the cause of it, within the ideology of Zionism and the politics of Israel.

  18. patm says:

    Newcomers to mondo and to the history of the I/P conflict should know too that this outrageous march took place in Sheikh Jarrah, a Palestinian enclave in East Jerusalem. And that East Jerusalem is meant to be the future capital of a Palestinian state in the 2-state solution to peace.

  19. kalithea says:

    I love the way Zionists here disingenuously pretend this isn’t Zionism. They can’t be that deluded; they just want you to believe “it’s not that bad” and the majority are not like that! But, Zionism is a supremacist, racist ideology that has nothing to do with democracy but has fascism at its core as a protectionist measure. Zionism will never survive without fascist, racist policy defending it. This is the real reason that Israel trends to the hard right in politics and left-wing political parties are being phased out or becoming totally irrelevant. Zionism is not only the new Apartheid but a growing and dangerous supremacist trend. Notice how Congress bowed 29 times before the Zionist Netanyahu and lapped up all his lies and drivel. And no one’s worried that U.S. policymakers are so duped??
    What we witnessed was a confirmed takeover of Congress by Zionism. Congress is divided into 3 groups: Zionist infiltrators on both sides of the aisle who pressure other members and even the President to do Israel’s bidding, the goyim slaves to Israel whose campaigns are dependent on Aipac support and money and the miniscule group who refuse to surrender American foreign policy to Israel. Zionists have led Israel into Apartheid and Congress will end up justifying this crime against humanity as they condemned the Goldstone Report to help exonerate these supremacist criminals.

    Anyone who pretends there is something redeeming in Zionism is either totally deluded or selling you a bridge to nowhere, and 9 times out of 10, it’s the latter. The supremacist symbols are everywhere in this video and a picture’s worth a thousand words. And we’re not even witnessing the worst of it. Many of these “whiteshirts” aren’t even from the settler clan. Ziofascism is on the rise.

  20. talknic says:

    Anyone arrested for incitement to hatred?

  21. Elliot says:

    This is particularly disturbing because these racists are not freak extremists. They are solid citizens with a high standard of civic responsibility.
    Young modern Orthodox Israeli boys (aka ‘White Shirts’) all serve in the military. Military service is a very high social value. If they can, they serve in combat units, often in homogenous units comprised entirely of White Shirts. The main task of these combat units is enforcing the occupation in the West Bank.

    The young men in this video are the same ones you see in video clips of military abuse of Palestinians on the West Bank. The message and mindset are the same. They’ve just changed their uniform.

  22. lysias says:

    When Brüning’s government in 1930 prohibited the SA from marching in their uniforms, they marched in protest in white shirts.

    SA members march in white shirts in protest against the uniform prohibition of Bruening’s government in 1930, Berlin.

  23. kalithea says:

    It really, really incenses me when certain individuals write that this isn’t Zionism or there’s a liberal Zionism, or there are different faces to Zionism and even a beneficent face to Zionism. Sometimes I think that people who write these things are even more dangerous than these “whiteshirts” because they shade the truth and either deliberately or ignorantly make this emerging evil palatable and allow it to root and spread. Zionism should be condemned on all levels like Nazism as a SUPREMACIST ideology. Period! Zionism will lead to no good. We already have plenty of proof of that. So, why defend it further in ANY way??? Stop promoting Zionism, stop defending Zionism and stop pretending that it can be turned into something good, or even that it was meant as something good, because we all know where this is heading! There is only evil emerging from this ideology. People of conscience need to divorce themselves of this evil ideology once and for all! Let it go already!!!

    Zionism should never be used in a positive context, EVER again. This is called ENABLING. It comes down to a choice between your conscience and Zionism. Either you want to cling to Zionism forever as some kind of “utopian fantasy” or you want to do what’s right! What’s it gonna be??? Because when you pretend that there’s a good side to it, you allow what we are witnessing which, by the way is REALITY and not some delusional utopia in your mind, to gain strength and become unstoppable. Stop enabling and let it go once and for all!

  24. seafoid says:

    The thing watching this is how far away from fascism Germany has moved since 1945. “Never again” means something in Germany. In Israel they learnt nothing. Encouraged racism, salivated over it , in fact. Bred hatred. And this is the result. Israel is so far away as a society from Germany today.

    Israel hasn’t a hope in hell of putting the YESHA genie back in the bottle.

    There is no need for Mustafa Barghouti to start mentioning the binational state. Israel will tear itself apart over YESHA.

  25. decentjew says:

    Zionists and Zionism are pretty much irrelevant.

    Zionists were those lobbying for a Jewish state, which has long since become a fact of life in the world. If you say you are anti-Zionist, you are really calling for the dismantling of Israel.

    The entire concept of a Jewish state loses all meaning once you add the provision “with equal rights for all, irrespective of religion.”

    • Citizen says:

      Gee, a state with equal rights for all, irrespective of religion……is that evil? Indecent?

      • decentjew says:

        Neither evil nor indecent, but incompatible with the whole notion of a Jewish state.

        Once you stop virulent discrimination against non-Jews, Israel collapses.

    • Ellen says:

      If you say you are anti-Zionist, you are really calling for the dismantling of Israel.

      Now, that is one wacky argument.

      Like the founding of most all nation states, one can debate the morality of the origins and founders of Israel, but the State exists.

      I am anti Colonialism, anti Slavery and these movements and heinous institution are part of the foundation of the United States. Being against with all my being, is not calling for the dismantling of the US.

      Being against Zionism is not calling for the dismantling of Israel. It is calling for a change for the survival of Israel.

      Without that change Israel will not survive another 50 years. Just as the US or Germany or Italy or even Great Britain never would have survived without fundamental change.

      • decentjew says:

        Without racial purity laws, brutally enforced by the military, there IS no Israel.

        Without laws forbidding non-Jews to marry in Israel, there is no Israel.

        Without laws stripping non-Jews of their right to property ownership and citizenship, there is no Israel.

        Without the fundamental understanding that Jews are superior to non-Jews and entitled to preferential treatment under the law, there can be no Israel–period.

        Unless you are suggesting that non-Jews will simply acquiesce in their own persecution and displacement, which seems pretty “wacky” to me.

        What you are arguing for is a “whites only” beach, where all races are welcome. This is absurd and plainly untenable. You can have one or the other–not both.

        No virulent racism enforced through violence: no Israel.
        It’s as simple as that.

  26. A number of factors are involved:

    1. Endless war- As Judah Magnes predicted the establishment of a Jewish state in a predominantly Arab neighborhood would require support by a super power and endless war.

    2. Ethnic cleansing- This is obviously an aspect of “endless war”, but the exiling of the Palestinians that occurred in 1947 to 1948 creates the dynamic known as “we are over here and they are over there”, which is quite different than the idea of “E pluribus unum”.

    3. Demographic dangers- Also a continuation of the above. If Arab/Palestinian Israelis are viewed as a demographic danger, this creates a tension between the Jewish population that wishes to maintain its artificial majority and the Arab/Palestinian minority.

    4. 1967 and the “settlement policy”. When the UN passed resolution 242 that inferred the need for a negotiated agreement before an Israeli withdrawal (rather than the aftermath of the 56 war which demanded an Israeli withdrawal despite the lack of any negotiated agreement), this “ensured” that the West Bank would remain under a military occupation for quite some time. Jewish religious sentiment regarding the West Bank “ensured” that a small but determined minority would seek to turn the military occupation into a settlement occupation. This led to a zigzag policy
    regarding settlements during the Labor governments and endorsement of the settlements under the Likud governments.

    5. The unique status of Jerusalem- Unlike the rest of the West Bank Jerusalem was annexed and citizenship was “offered” to the Arab Palestinians of Jerusalem who refused it, because to accept it would have meant accepting the validity of the annexation.

    I suppose I am only restating the obvious. There are retrograde aspects to traditional (biblical and Talmudic) Judaism that are involved in some of these processes, but I think to blame traditional Judaism misses the point. Certainly the process was complicated by the 67 war, but the original ethnic cleansing of a small area in a vastly Arab neighborhood certainly entailed the possibility if not the probability of “unending war”. This would put the blame on all Zionism that approves of that ethnic cleansing or to put it more technically: on all Zionism that approves of the Ben Gurion governments inability to reach a quick peace with its neighbors.

    • Keith says:

      WONDERINGJEW- “…but I think to blame traditional Judaism misses the point.”

      If by “traditional Judaism” you mean “classical Judaism,” no less a personage than Israel Shahak would strongly disagree. In his book “Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years,” (required reading for every Mondoweisser), Shahak maintains that Zionism is a throwback to classical Judaism (albeit in secular form). In other words, Zionism is an amalgam of blood and soil nationalism and Gentile phobic classical Judaism. The racism of some of the early Zionists such as Jabotinsky is both appalling and revealing. Gilad Atzmon provides a variant on Shahak’s theme, arguing that it isn’t so much Judaism as the ideology of Jewishness. Something to keep in mind is the extend to which American Reformed Jews are more or less ignorant of the fact that, historically speaking, they don’t represent Judaism. Nowadays, Orthodox Judaism is the closest comparison to classical Judaism. Seinfeld is a recent phenomenon, a product of Reformed Judaism, totally unrecognizable in classical Judaism. It is a big mistake to project the reality of American Reformed Judaism onto the history of classical Judaism.

      • Keith- I am aware of Israel Shahak, but I disagree with him. If the above cited situations did not exist classical Judaism’s admittedly retrograde attitude towards nonJews would not have had any effect. It may be in combination with the above mentioned situation that classical Judaism gives a religious rationale to the hatred that would have been engendered by the situation. Gilad Atzmon is scum. Vlad Jabotinsky was racist against Arabs or Arab culture (rather than Arab genes).

        • patm says:

          “Vlad Jabotinsky was racist against Arabs or Arab culture (rather than Arab genes.”

          Say what?? Do you realize how utterly absurd this line sounds?

        • patm- The only line of racism that I have heard quoted from Vlad Jabotinsky was that the culture of the Palestinians was 500 years behind European culture. I consider this to be racist vis a vis the culture of the Palestinians rather than to be a belief in genetic inferiority.

        • Danaa says:

          “Gilad Atzmon is scum”

          What makes him a scum? kind of a strong word there, so the burden of explanation is on you. You do know that Spinoza was also called ‘scum” or the equivalent, in his day, right? Not that Spinoza and Atzmon are similar in any way, but your choice of words merits dissection. Or you can just wait a little while for my deconstruction treatise on what it is about Atzmon that make some Jews squirm in inexplicable rage.

        • patm says:

          Jabotinsky-A Brief Biography & Quotes

          Try this web page, jw:

          link to palestineremembered.com

        • Citizen says:

          Probably because Atzmon hits too many Zionist buttons regarding their emotional mindset & crappy conduct, as in his novel Guide For The Perplexed:
          link to counterpunch.org

        • Danaa- We’ve been through the discussion on Gilad Atzmon about a week ago. Do we need to start again?

          Does he blame the Jews for killing Christ? Does he tell Jews to stop being Jews?

          He is a hard on Israeli but because he turns his verbal ammunition against the Jews instead of the Palestinians you like him. Fine. I hate him.

        • Donald says:

          ““Vlad Jabotinsky was racist against Arabs or Arab culture (rather than Arab genes.”

          Say what?? Do you realize how utterly absurd this line sounds?”

          I’ve seen that before. It’s a technical distinction often made between different forms of hatred. So racism in the strict sense is a biological theory about the innate inferiority of people with bad genes (who happen to be black or Arab or Jewish or whatever). Then there’s the other form of hatred, where you hate everyone who is a member of a given culture.

          The only practical difference this makes is that haters in the latter group will cease their hatred of an individual if he converts, whereas the first kind of hater will still hate that individual. A Jew who sincerely converted to Christianity would presumably still have been killed by the Nazis, but someone who was a bigot of the second kind might have spared them. Luther ended up hating Jews because they didn’t convert to his form of Christianity, for instance. So he wasn’t the racial sort of hater.

        • Ellen says:

          Wonderingjew:

          I hate him.

          You hate………

        • demize says:

          Danna I look foward to that. Ive engaged other Jewish antizios on several other fora and have never received anything other than the standard “hes an antisemite” and variations of. I wrote a whole long post on the the defacto distinctions between Jabotinsky zionism and say Magnes zionism to be moot at this point, but I’m typing on my phone and there is some weird delay with hitting a key and it responding, javascript issue? Hit the wrong button and it evaporated into the ether

    • Chaos4700 says:

      I’m sorry, are you making excuses for this disgusting display of overt racism? The ethnic cleansing of a “small area?”

      And you wonder why people are sickened by your commentary. Maybe we should quote this post by you the next time one of your ilk makes some nonsense comment that all of us who oppose Israel are in league with terrorists.

      We’re not the ones endorsing the sort of hatred that your contortions to justify the bloodbath your ancestors perpetrated in 1947 onward.

      • Donald says:

        Chaos, I thought that Wondering Jew gave an objective summary of the situation. It didn’t look like apologetics to me. If that were submitted as an op ed to the NYT, it would probably be followed a day later by three or four angry denunciations from Israel supporters.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Yes, but if that were submitted as an op ed in an anti-war newsletter, people would be up in arms.

          I didn’t find it very objective. WJ tried to parse it as if the Nakba was a result of Arab invasions and attacks on Jewish immigrants. It wasn’t.

        • Donald says:

          I don’t really see that. The post is mainly critical of the Zionist side, I thought, though in the sort of understated objective way you might find adopted by an historian rather than an activist.

  27. decentjew says:

    Agree with kathleen and MRW’s statements above–a needed antidote to the self-mythologizing too many Jews continue to be engaged in.

    It would be wrong (if not, downright anti-Semitic) to say that Jews “have been at the forefront of predatory lending policies” yet you hear again and again how activism in the Civil Rights movement is somehow embedded in Jewish culture and Jewish identity.

    SOME Jews fight for justice and equal rights, just as SOME Jews are masters of financial fraud. That’s about all you can say, without falling into self-aggrandizing nonsense in the first case or racist demonization in the second case.

    • lyn117 says:

      A little self-mythologizing forgivable, especially among minorities. I think all ethnic groups practice it. It goes with ethnic pride. Of course, for whites, any self-mythologizing or white “ethnic pride” would come across as white supremacy or the like. Consequently, as a white American, I have chosen to identify with the ethnic group of my grandfather, Scottish-American, keeping the white-American bit if only for the sake of liberal guilt, but I’m fully cognizant that while some Scots have supported the fight for justice and equal rights, some have been as racist as anyone. And note, Scots-Americans practice self-mythologizing with the best of them.

      • RoHa says:

        “Consequently, as a white American, I have chosen to identify with the ethnic group of my grandfather”

        What do you mean by “identify with”, and why do it?

      • Kathleen says:

        self mythologizing is unnecessary and inaccurate spin. Blue collar terms..bullshit.

    • Kathleen says:

      Totally off topic but so interesting that all of these institutions received federal loans and little to no interest. Such a deal. How many American taxpayers would like such a deal?
      link to federalreserve.gov
      “Finally, the Federal Reserve provided economic stimulus by lowering interest rates. Over the course of the crisis, the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) reduced its target for the federal funds rate to a range of 0 to 1/4 percent”

  28. American says:

    Looks like pictures of the old KKK to me.

  29. Well well, so the Klan are alive and well in Israel. It doesn’t really matter that some people distance themselves from them. The fact is that they are there and are a product of the ideology of Zionism. Trying to dismiss them as unrepresentative extremists doesn’t really work when they are allowed to flaunt their racism so openly. It’s the society at large that tolerates it, and many are implicit in it. It is symbolic of the belief system there.

  30. American says:

    It just hit me how large those crowds are.
    Were most of them involved in threats to Palestines or was there a smaller group doing it?

  31. Keith says:

    It is such a comfort to see that Israel encourages organized activities for its young people so as to keep them out of mischief.

  32. There were certainly many Jews involved in the civil rights movement. I believe Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwermer, both murdered in Mississippi, were Jewish. I would speculate they weren’t zionists.

    • Kathleen says:

      “involved” does not equate to “Jewish identity” The need to create and fuel a myth about “Jewish identity” is a bunch of hooey

  33. eGuard says:

    Wish it was WWII again. Less fascism then.

    • Chaos4700 says:

      Don’t worry, I’m sure Israel will start WWIII when they’re good and ready to turn flak guns on the White House again, proverbially speaking.

  34. American says:

    Does this guy have a split personailty or what.

    salemnews.com

    Jun-03-2011 20:23
    Glenn Beck Promotes Freedom of Palestine – Cites Israel’s Human Rights Abuse
    Tim King Salem-News.com Entertainment Report
    Beck promotes new ‘Free Palestine’ video; discusses “End of Israel”.

    ‘Beckestine’ by Tim King

    (SALEM, Ore.) – Glenn Beck is promoting the new song, Freedom for Palestine before it has even been released. The song by a gathering of artists, in Beck’s words, “Calls for the West Bank security barrier to be toppled, it calls for human rights and justice for all.” The talk show host added that the song is, “truly amazing”.

    Beck says the song is composed by a church choir. It calls to light Israel’s Genocidal regard for the native Palestinian population which has been increasingly displaced in a Diaspora that began in 1948, during what Palestinians describe as ‘The Nakba’ which means catastrophe.

    Beck says it illustrates Israel’s “Human rights abuse”. The new song illustrates how due to Israeli Zionist policy, Palestinians are, in Beck’s words, “living in crushing poverty in refugee camps and living under Israeli occupation.” He forgot to reference the fact that Israel is bogged down with apartheid laws that resemble policies that South Africa maintained in recent years.

    According to Beck, most of today’s artists are tossing their support behind Palestine, “I thought to myself, we are behind the curve here on the Israel front I honestly thought we were ahead of the curve but we are not.”

    Surprisingly, Beck also offered these words, “This is about the end of Israel and they are packaging it in a way that everybody can embrace.” Pretty harsh Glenn.

    But this political firebrand said there is good news, “Some major people that don’t have anything in common for me and in fact hate my political views, are standing up.” He said one of his staff members made this statement about Beck’s new friends in this Israeli/Palestine struggle: “Glenn, they have bashed you for over two years.” To this Beck replied, “It’s not about me or anything else, its about being a shield.

    Is that right out of the Crusades or what!

    (All Beck quotes are verbatim, beyond that I plead the fifth)

    Here is the song, learn more about it by visiting: FreedomOneWorld.com

    • annie says:

      is this the onion?

      • Citizen says:

        annie, seems like it to me–Beck’s had shows every week for months now that cry out how the US must protect Israel at all costs, and, more recently, that Obama has thrown Israel under the bus. Too, he’s going to stage a show in Israel soon to renew American support for Israel. I’d like to know where the verbatim quotes originally came from. If they are true, I am guessing Beck was trying to show how anti-Israel folks are packaging their Jew hatred in deceptive rhetoric by making the Palestinians look like they are the real victims (fancy that!). Wonder where to go to find the original context for the alleged latest Beckian spiel, and if it actuall exists.

        • annie says:

          citizen, it’s a snark on one of becks latest crying sobfests…something about how we need to be a shield for israel. i’ll go look for it.

    • Sumud says:

      here’s the link:

      Glenn Beck Promotes Freedom of Palestine – Cites Israel’s Human Rights Abuse

      I don’t know what’s behind this latest Beck behaviour, but I sure would like to. Wasn’t he getting criticised by the ADL a little while ago for his obsessing about Soros? Perhaps Beck has decided to declare war on “the jews”.

      Can’t imagine he’s going to get a very warm reception among progressives . I mean, there’s “big tent” but no need to go overboard. Beck is still a demented idiot.

      • annie says:

        cough. that’s not exactly accurate sumud. the glen sobfest up in draft. cross your fingers phil publishes it soon. it’s a riot.

        salem-news.com has a special way of covering the news.

        • Sumud says:

          aah OK. I’ve never seen it before today and didn’t pay attention to the rest, he he.

        • Kris says:

          Here’s the video of Glenn Beck having a meltdown over the song “Freedom for Palestine:”

          link to youtube.com

          I hadn’t seen Beck before. He is beyond strange!!!!!

        • Citizen says:

          Thanks, Kris. Yeah, Beck’s a pip with a selectively hollow core. I see he concluded the video was pure propaganda. He says he has no clue why it was made or distributed. He concludes it’s because they want to exterminate Israel by use of terms like “occupation.” Finally, he tells us you have to choose between good and evil; “they” are trying to “blur the line between good and evil.”
          He’s had many shows on Israel now, and how our values are the same as Israel’s. And concerned how Obama is shoving Israel under the bus. He has never once, for example, given a historical time line of the events comprising the I-P conflict. He’s very selective about what dots he wants to connect on his chalkboard.
          Like Sarah Palin, he’s going to milk the sentimental Jewish & Christian Zionist response to everything Israel for all they are worth. Both think they have found the key to continued career success–he says he thought he was “ahead of the curve” until he saw the video. He still doesn’t get it, doesn’t get that the days of one-way Likud ideology buttressed by big money bags in the USA are on the way out. Obama doesn’t get it either.

    • Sumud says:

      The views for the song are growing nicely, up to 150,000 now.

      I have an itunes account – and I’ve never bought a single song (give me a CD or vinyl pls!), but I’ll buy this one.

  35. seafoid says:

    YESHA Zionism and Hindu fundamentalism bookend the Muslim world. Here is an interesting video from Gujarat in India showing another Sheikh Jarrah type crowd.

    is

  36. biorabbi says:

    Decent Jew writes:

    decentjew June 3, 2011 at 4:32 pm
    Agree with kathleen and MRW’s statements above–a needed antidote to the self-mythologizing too many Jews continue to be engaged in.

    It would be wrong (if not, downright anti-Semitic) to say that Jews “have been at the forefront of predatory lending policies” yet you hear again and again how activism in the Civil Rights movement is somehow embedded in Jewish culture and Jewish identity.

    SOME Jews fight for justice and equal rights, just as SOME Jews are masters of financial fraud. That’s about all you can say, without falling into self-aggrandizing nonsense in the first case or racist demonization in the second case.”

    That sort of says it all. If more people had accepted his premise, there would never had been a Holocaust and as a consequence there never would have been a modern state of Israel… or a need for one.

    Jeffrey Goldberg describes philosemitism as anti-semitism for people who like Jews. I kind of agree. Some Jews like Rabbi Abraham Heschel were at the side of Martin Luther King Jr, in person and in soul, but some catholics were and so on. This great Jew wrote The Prophets which inspired King. Bernard Maddoff is another Jew. But one can mythologize and extrapolate these qualities. My complaint is not so much the self-extrapolation which all ethnic groups do, but there appears to be so much more external extrapolation to the Jews from non-Jews. Evangelical Christians who love us so much that we should move to Israel for the rapture. Thanks, tough love I guess. Leftist Jews who kvell about how the Jews backed and led the civil rights movement. Racists who kvell how the Jews back and led the civil rights movement, communism, and the plague.

    Jews are individuals. Some good. Some bad. I would like to add something about Vladimir Jabotinksy’s quote: “eliminate the diaspora before the diaspora eliminates you.” This is paranoid, nationalistic, but it was quite true at the time. Jabotinsky’s paranoia, right-wing nationalism, touched with psychosis proved to be true against a group of paranoid, right-wing fascists who believed Jews were not individuals but species, all with evil intent. Vermin.

    In my view it is healthy to dispute the fact that Jews control the government, media, commerce, pornography, junk bonds or are liberal saints who walked with Dr. King. Individuals make choices. Some walk with King; others walk with Bernie and scam the aged. From my personal experience, an arab oncologist saved my wife’s life from breast cancer, while OBL blew things up and ruined lives. Individuals make choices and we should not be rewarded or chastised for the choices of others.

    • Citizen says:

      I like this: ” Individuals make choices and we should not be rewarded or chastised for the choices of others.”

      How do the activities of tribes fit into this? Governments? States? Corporations? The same way street gangs do?

    • Chaos4700 says:

      Noun, verb, “anti-Semitic.”

  37. American says:

    I took it as snark….and as a sort of play on Beck’s language slips.
    I don’t know anything about SalemNews, came across this while googling and figured it had to be a spoof on Beck showing how he talks about ‘the occupation’ and then defends Israel.

    Probably there is a transcript on Fox where this came from.

    • Citizen says:

      Except, I’ve watched quite a few of Beck’s shows, and I’ve never heard him say such things; never heard him say anything about the Palestinians except, essentially, they want to drive the Jews into the sea. He’s mention various individual Jews when he connect his dots on his chalkboard, but he has only pointed out their being Jewish as to one, that I am aware of: George Soros. He views Soros as the best example of his despised socialism/communism/new world order, etc. And he has referenced what Soros did as a boy to help the Nazis when the Nazis were in power. Once he lampooned the Palestinians as victims by showing an enlarged video clip of Palestinian ladies shopping at a new mall on their land. For the ignorant audience, Palestinians had it made in the shade.

  38. Proton Soup says:

    just fyi, jewishjournal deleted a link to this page.