After an extensive investigation the Turkish government has released the names of the IDF soldiers who participated in the attack on the Mavi Marmara. This news broke today in Sabah, a Turkish newspaper.
The search for the identities of IDF soldiers who participated in the deadly Flotilla raid began after Turkish intelligence demanded the information from Israel who refused to release the information. The Turkish government has requested an apology from Israel as well as compensation for victims of the attack and lifting the blockade on Gaza to abort this investigation. After Israel refused the Turkish government warned they would pursue criminal charges against individuals who participated in the attack. The prosecutor conducting the investigation on the Mavi Marmara raid is Mehmet Akif Ekinci of Turkey's Ministry of Justice.
The Turkish Intelligence Service as well as other agencies have conducted the identification and image hunt by meticulously combing thru all video and photographic evidence available thru worldwide media including leads thru thousands of facebook and twitter accounts. Members of the crew as well as passengers on the Mavi Marmara also participated in the investigation. Turkish experts in Hebrew were vital in following leads thru Israeli social media sites.
IDF soldiers who have been identified thus far are:
Agai Yehezkel, Aharon Haliwa, Alex Shakliar, Amir Ulo, Amir Abste, Amir Shimon Ashel, Anna Strelski, Anton Siomin, Aram Zehavi, Ariel Brickman, Ariel Karo, Ariel Rifkin, Ariel Yochanan, Arnon Avital, Assaf Bryt, Avi Balut, Avi Bnayahu, Avi Mizrakhi, Avi Peled, Aviad Perri, Aviel Siman, Avihay Wizman, Avihu Ben Zahar, Avishay Levi, Avishay Shasha, Aviv Edri, Aviv Kochavi, Aviv Mendelowitz, Baruch (Barry) Berlinsky, Basam Alian, Ben-Zion (Benzi) Gruver, Bnaya Sarel, Boaz Dabush, Boaz Rubin, Boris Schuster, Dado Bar- Kalifa, Dan Dolberg, Dan Harel, Daniel Kotler, David Shapira, David Slovozkoi, David Zini, Eden Atias, Eden Atias, Efraim Aviad Tehila, Efraim Avni, Eitan Ben-Gad, Elad Chachkis, Elad Itzik, Elad Shoshan, Elad Yakobson, Eli Fadida, Eli Yafe, Eliezer Shkedi, Elik Sror, Eran Karisi, Erez Sa'adon, Eyal Eizenberg, Eyal Handelman, Eyal Zukowsky, Gil Shen, Gur Rozenblat, Gur Schreibmann, Guy Givoni, Guy Hazut, Haggai Amar, Hanan Schwart, Harel Naaman, Hila Yafe, Ido Nechushtan, Ilan Malka, Itay Virob, Liran Nachman, Michelle Ben-Baruch, Miki Ohayon, Moshe Tamir, Nadav Musa, Nathan Be'eri, Nezah Rubin, Nimrod Schefer, Nir Ben-David, Nir Dupet, Nir Ohayon, Niv Samban, Noam Keshwisky, Ofek Gal, Ofer Lahad, Ofer Levi, Ofer Winter, Ofer Zafrir, Ofir Edri, Ohad Girhish, Ohad Najme, Omer Dori, Omri Dover, Or Nelkenbaum, Oren Bersano, Oren Cohen, Oren Kupitz, Oren Zini, Pinkhas Buchris, Raz Sarig, Ron Asherov, Ron Levinger, Ron Shirto, Ronen Dan, Ronen Dogmi, Roi Elkabetz, Roi Oppenheimer, Roi Weinberger, Sahar Abargel, Shai Belaich, Shaked Galin, Sharon Itach, Shaul Badusa, Shay Unger, Shimon Siso, Shiran Mussa, Shlomit Tako, Tal Alkobi, Tal Bendel, Tal Kommemi, Tal Ruso, Tamir Oren, Tamir Yadai, Tom Cohen, Tomer Meltzmann, Geva Rapp, Tslil Birbir, Udi Sagie, Uri Ron, Yair Keinan, Yair Palay, Ya'akov(Yaki) Dolf, Yaniv Zolicha, Yaron,Finkelman, Yaron Simsulo, Yehosua (Shuki) Ribak, Yehu Ofer, Yehuda Fuchs, Yehuda Hacohen, Yigal Slovik, Yigal Sudri, Yizhar Yona, Yoav Galant, Yoav Gertner, Yoav Mordechai, Yochai Siemann, Yochanan Locker, Yom-Tov Samia, Yonathan Barenski, Yonathan Felman, Yoni Weitzner, Yossi Abuzaglo, Yossi Bahar, Yossi Beidaz, Yotam Dadon, Yishai Ankri, Yishai Green, Yuval Halamish, Zion Bramli, Zion Shankour, Ziv Danieli, Ziv Trabelsi, Zuf Salomon, Zvi Fogel, Zvi Yehuda Kelner.
There remain IDF soldiers who have yet to be identified by name although their images are familiar to investigators.
Wow.
The other thing is all those made up Zionist names
Oren Kupitz. Peanut Slashhook Yishai Ankri Chestnut Rainbow
This is going to be fun. We are going to raise millions to support the defense fund of these soldiers and show what a farce the Turkish justice system is. The Turks are going to get so much bad press and Erdogan will look like an idiot.
So you’re an expert on the Turkish justice system. And of course the Israeli justice system is renowned for its political and ideological bias. Just ask the Corrie family, the Hurndall family or the thousands of Palestinians obstructed and denied justice. Can the Turkish system be worse? If you’re talking bad press, hard to beat the Israelis at repulsing the world, and who doesn’t think Nini isn’t a complete idiot and buffoon, who sounded like a cartoon Stalinist at the UN last week?
Who cares. Zionists giving themselves money? Alert the press!
And considered an idiot by who? You? People like you?
Again who cares.
Who cares? All the people on this site the whine constantly about how the MSM covers the issues. If you don’t care about the MSM, why do you whine about it?
Straw man. CLEARLY we care about the MSM, enough to protest against hate-mongery and yellow journalism.
Where are you going to get the money from? You mean us American Jews have to pony up more? I guess it is conveniently high holidays, so you can start the begging Wednesday night, eh? let’s see, ten days to repent – and beg. Sounds like an Israeli plan….
Not the kind of farce where throwing lots of money at it will get a guilty man free, I’m afraid…
don’t mess with Turkey.
the Armenians, Cypriots, and Kurds are quite aware.
Erdogan’s nonsense will definitely catch up with him. I am waiting for that day.
His nonsense is actually only nonsense to the crazies of your cult and the people they BUY off.
Waiting for what day? When the United States disbands NATO? When Israel starts killing Turkish civilians by scores instead of in single digits?
why would the US disband NATO? because we foot the majority of the bill? Also why don’t you care about Turkish civilians when the Kurds kill them? Why don’t you care about Kurdish civilians when the Turks or Iranians kill them? double standard eh?
DBG,
You and your cohort are the ONLY people on here that defend murder.
Just as how Israeli Jews care more for Israeli Jews than American Jews. At least we know it’s a one-way street.
Probably the same reason my Synagogue cares more for the people of Darfur than the people under Israeli occupation in the west bank. But point well taken. We’ll see Wednesday night, Thursday & Friday if our Rabbi brings up the Turkish civilian deaths.
L’shana tovah Mark!
L’shana tova to you too, my friend. Happy healthy New Year.
I wonder if you made any complaints about the Armenian genocide before Turkey’s relations with Israel soured.
Kinda like Erdogan didn’t make any complaints about Israel/Cyprus NG exploration before relations soured.
That will be long after Bibbi’s and Israel’s noneswnse gas caught up with it.
uggghhhh whatever u say Shingo.
DBG, why do you defend people who murder Americans? We’re really supposed to believe your loyal and patriotic? With your support for Bush’s war and all?
Chaos, I didn’t support Bush’s war, can you provide a link which says I supported it?
Nobody believes you when you say that, DBG. Just like nobody believes you when you claim to be anything other than a white suburban guy.
Pictures and names…now that is getting specific. Hope folks stay peaceful. Demand that they go on trial at ICC.
Erdogan was spot on during his interview with Fareed Zakaria yesterday
link to youtube.com
Great. We’ll publish the names of all Turkish officials who allowed violent IHH activists to board the boat and attempt to run a legal international blockade, starting with Erdogan.
Not one of these soldiers will ever be prosecuted, and if so much as one hair on the head of one of these soldiers is touched by any Turkish official, it will be an act of war.
the flotilla attack was an act of war.
according to Erdogan maybe. If it was really an ‘act of war’ Annie, NATO would have condemned it.
A UN report says it was a legal act. Keep howling at the moon.
The legal flaws of the Palmer Commission flotilla report
eee – relying on the un now are we? lol……………
There were surprised reactions to the appointment of Mr Uribe who is accused of responsibility for widespread human rights violations during his period of office as President of Columbia. More relevant here are his associations with Israel. During his term of office Israel was Columbia’s top weapons supplier, [2] while the American Jewish Committee gave him its ‘Light Unto The Nations’ award in 2007. [3] This apparent conflict of interest is not addressed in the UN Panel’s report.
uribe was a paid stooge for the bush war machine, when he wasn’t being a paid stooge for israel…
“the legal flaws of the Palmer Commission flotilla report”
We know Annie. The UN is only relevant when it says things you agree with. Otherwise (see the Palmer Report and the report accusing Hezbollah), you complain.
So an opinion on mondoweiss is going to trump a UN report? Keep howling at the moon.
if the opinion is written by
vs a known columbian torturer why yes, it would.
bingo…but for Hophmi etc rules, laws that apply to others just flat out do not apply to Israel.
hophmi quote “The UN is only relevant when it says things you agree with.”
gee, where have i seen that before? lol..
eee,
the Palmer Commission report is a joke and is not even an official report since both the Israeli and Turkish representatives have rejected it. There have been other views on the Gaza blockade (the entire shebang not just the naval one). The only people howling at the moon are you and your fellow apologists.
It’s stunning how eee and the others will keep trumpeting a report HIS GOVERNMENT rejected. This is kind of like how Israel accepted the UN partition plan after it declared unilateral independence, ethnically cleansed most of its Arab population and seized land well in excess of the partition borders.
Who does he really think buys this crap?
eee, you Zionists think that when the UN and international law is in favor of Israel, it is relevent. When not in favor of Israel, you say it is irrelevent
There are no double standards. It was quite bold for Bibi to bring up Gilad Shalit and say it was a violation of international law. Israel, who violates international law on a daily basis. Israel who has hundreds of Palestinians prisoners in violation of international law. Pathetic
The Palmer commission was made up of Americans, Turks, and Israelis. 2/3 of those were biased. The VP of the commission was Alvaro Uribe. The lobby played a role in the tone of the report. The commission should have been made up of outsiders.
No eee,
A farcical and compromised UN Report with no authority to fete one legality claimed it was legal, which is meaningless. A more recent report from UN legal experts say otherwise.
Not that a criminal, fascist apartheid state like Israel ever cared about the law anyway.
As long as the soldiers stay in Israel and never travel anywhere, Hophmi, they’ll be safe.
For how many days could Israel manage a war against Turkey ?
why are you obsessed with a war between Turkey and Israel?
You probably said the same thing in ’67 too. the Turkish and Greek Airforce would own the Turkish airforce, Israel would disable their air defenses like they did in Syria and then it would be ’67 all over again.
Why are youb obsessed with victimhood? Israel kills civilians on a boat outside it’s waters, after the IDF drops on top of them. And you’re excusing it.
You have no credibility or moral high ground. Why do you come to MW?
Cliff, can you please stay focused? I am not excusing anything, I was replying to seafoid’s warmongering. if you want to reply to what I am talking about fine, if not why don’t you tuck your talking points away.
Why are you on MW if you can’t add anything but your overplayed talking points.
It’s astounding that Israel can literally generate a mountain of corpses and her zealots will climb it and plant a flag with a Star of David right on top of it.
mountain of corpses? what are we even talking about here anymore? did we jump back to caste lead now? LOL you guys are impossible to follow.
Americas I’ve talked to who fought in the Korean War have told me how impressed they were with the quality of Turkish soldiers.
DBG, it would be nothing like ’67. That was a pre-planned preemptive war. When Israel doesn’t plan for a war you get ’73 where they got owned and cried to the US for support with the threat of nuking Egypt and Syria.
If Israel provokes a war with Turkey, Western powers would have to respond… to Israel. As conflicted as people are, it is the NATO policy.
“why are you obsessed with a war between Turkey and Israel?”
Your stablemate brought up the topic of war, habibi.
“if so much as one hair on the head of one of these soldiers is touched by any Turkish official, it will be an act of war”
Is there no communication at hasbara central?
Israel can’t manage a long war . See how twitchy she got in 06 when the nice Jewish boys started dying in Lebanon.
A long, and proud military tradition, which they take very seriously. Terrific, ferocious fighters.
Haha, too funny. Haven’t you heard DBG? Greece is bankrupt and don’t own anything. They wouldn’t be able to buy the fuel to put those planes in the air.
<blockquote< Israel would disable their air defenses like they did in Syria and then it would be ’67 all over again.
They would try, but Turkey ain’t Syria. Wars are won on the ground and we know Israelis are pussies when it comes to ground combat.
It would be 2006 all over again, but much, much worse for Israel.
Well, that would make Israel’s callous and cold-blooded murder of the Turkish activists an act of war. I guess this the only language you understand. Publish the names of the Turkish officials – so what, you want them prosecuted for sending wheelchairs and medicine.
As usual Israel thinks it can do as it wants – murder and theft – and isn’t accountable to anybody. When people try, they whine and threaten, like the cowards and bullies they are. Another own goal by Israel coming up, when it could have settled this affair with some contrition.
“Not one of these soldiers will ever be prosecuted, and if so much as one hair on the head of one of these soldiers is touched by any Turkish official, it will be an act of war.”
Interesting definition. Murder an unarmed Turkish-American, execution-style — okay with hophmi. Touch the hair of the murderer — act of war.
“Murder an unarmed Turkish-American, execution-style — okay with hophmi.”
This “unarmed” person did not represent Turkey; neither did any of the other passengers. If they did represent Turkey, however, yes, running a blockade is an obvious act of war.
go read the report. Many of these people shot at close range in the back of their heads.
So let me get this straight — when Egypt operated a blockade, and Israeli ships challenged that, Egypt was committing the act of war. When Israel runs a blockade and EVERYONE ELSE challenges it, EVERYONE ELSE is guilty of an “obvious” act of war.
That’s your stance? Based on… Jewish privilege, I guess, unless you can tell me what other common denominator makes Israel categorically innocent no matter what they do?
8 of the 9 were Turkish citizens on a Turkish-flagged vessel, i.e., Turkish soil.
Dogan was a U.S. citizen killed on Turkish soil. And all that he was armed with was a camera.
“This “unarmed” person did not represent Turkey; neither did any of the other passengers.”
So what? They were Turkish citizens. That makes it Turkey’s paramount concern to see that their murderers are brought to justice. The same would probably be true in the US if the Israel lobby didn’t have an Alien-facehugger-grip on the US government. Instead, Obama licks the ass of his murder. Shows you what a few well-placed dollars gets you…
“Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not beenadequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel
Violent activists. LOL
Last time I checked it was the fascist thugs, the IDF, who boarded the ship in international waters and killed activists up close and personal.
So to review hophmi as a person,
He is apparently American but judge his love for this country by what he says. He uses the US as a punching bag to make Israel’s depravity look less deprave. He also cynically uses the shallow support among Americans for Israel (vague) as some kind of seal of approval.
He has said Palestinians supported Hitler with the usual specious bullshit.
He attempted to whitewash a pro-Israel, racist, propaganda cartoon by StandWithUs. Then when the racist artist affirmed what we and any honest person saw as obvious, he played down the racism as a political, purely political, cartoon.
When Israel buys off the media or a politician, you can expect this anti-intellectual tin-foil hat wearing putz to disassemble until he’s blue and white in the face.
And now we see that in spite of the fact that it was Turkish CIVILIANS wielding whatever was near them as the IDF dropped onto their ship from helicopters with rifles, who died and were killed up close to the head – somehow in Hophmi’s sick mind, Zio-Land, the IDF is the victim.
No one but morally depraved racist freaks, Christian fundies and bought and paid for politicians, celebs, media people, et al, are on your side.
The disgusting backwards, hypocritical and cynical things you and the other Zionists here off the short-bus say are fantastic in enlightening people to what Jewish nationalism looks like. Ugly.
Your comments are pure awesomesauce, Cliff.
Superb summary. Of course, the sane observation could be made about Witty, DBG, LLI, eee, and Jonah.
Wow Hop,
This one really set you off didn’t?
I couldn’t imagine a more pathetic and lame comeback if I tried. Good luck with proving that Turkish officials had any involvement, or such involvement was any kind if crime.
Israel wouldn’t dare take on the Turks, and if they did, it would be the last war they fight.
Murder on a ship gives jurisdiction to the flag country. The largest diplomatic row between the U.S. and Italy was over the murder of Klinghoffer on the Achille Lauro. Italy since it was the flag country demanded jurisdiction over the hijackers and Abu Abbas. Reagan intercepted the plane going to Egypt and had it land on a NATO base in Sicily. It got so bad that Carabierni and Navy Seals lined up against each other. When Abu Abbas was captured in Iraq, Italy still demanded extradiction. Abu Abbas died of “natural causes” the next day.
Of course, readers will see one key difference. In the case of the Achille Lauro where an American citizen was murdered on an Italian cruise ship both countries wanted to prosecute the murderers to the point that their respective militaries lined up against each other. In the case of the Marvi Marmara where an American citizen was murdered on a Turkish cruise ship only the Turks want to prosecute. In one case the murderers were Palestinians and in the other the murderers were Israelis. Do you all think that might have something to do with the difference?
… Israel will whine, protest and bitch to no avail. Which is why all of these guys are going to cancel any future trips to countries that might extradite them to Turkey.
“We’ll publish”
“We”? You mean Americans?
“allowed violent IHH activists to board the boat”
Of course, you should find evidence that there were violent IHH activists on board, but you will probably just keep screaming that they were there.
“a legal international blockade”
It isn’t legal, and it isn’t international.
once the turkish government issues arrest warrants for the accused murderers, they’ll be bounty hunters looking for them, a 21st century version of the nazi huiters of yesteryear
great interview katheen, thanks
Light getting through the cracks
David Gregory interview with Netanyahu
link to msnbc.msn.com
Christiane Amanpour with Hanan Ashrawi
link to abcnews.go.com
“Pictures and names…now that is getting specific. Hope folks stay peaceful. Demand that they go on trial at ICC.”
I hope so to. However, the Israelis have repeatedly engaged in extra-judicial killings. So they would really have no cause to complain if someone decided to pull an operation like that against their people.
“So they would really have no cause to complain if someone decided to pull an operation like that against their people.”
Terrorists have been engaged in murder of Israelis for the past century.
And Israeli terrorists, such as these, have likewise been engaged in murder of those who oppose them, for the past century, including the cold-blooded murder of my fellow American. What’s your point?
You know, the last bit of terrorism in Norway before the recent massacre was an Israeli assassination of a Moroccan waiter. Right?
And out of curiosity, how did terrorist murder Israelis before 1948? Time travel?
this might interest you Chaos.
link to start.umd.edu
Good link DBG. Look at the targets :
“The target of the attack was Mullah Krekar.Kurdish.”
“The U.S. Embassy was targeted. Fake powder.”
“Oslo Jewish Synagogue”
“McDonalds in Oslo, Norway. A note at the scene said the attack was a protest against the Iraq war.”
“Rival Biker Gang”
“House ocupied by left-wing youths. Neo-Nazi Group (suspected)”
“Iranian Embassy. Anti-Iran Government Exiles”
“Turkish Embassy. Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK)”
“Turkish Embassy”
“Turkish Embassy”
“Police Headquarters”
“Iranian Embassy”
“Iranian Embassy”
“Aeroflot. Tupolev TU 504, Oslo to Moscow”
Don’t think of it as murder Hop, think of it as extra judicial killings, collateral damage, or in the case of the settlers, human shields.
hophmi: “Terrorists have been engaged in murder of Israelis for the past century.”
How can this be possible? Last time I checked Israel didn’t exist before 1948. But then perhaps Israel’s date of birth can keep being pushed out just like its borders. I’m beginning to wonder whether anything is permanent about this very peculiar place.
No need to kill them. Just kidnap them and bring them to the Hague.
Lysias,
I would prefer that they be brought to trial, but bringing them to justice in the paramount concern.
I don’t believe Secretary of State Clinton has ever responded to Col Ann Wrights letters about the killing of Furkan Dogan
link to open.salon.com
Dear Secretary of State Clinton,
I am a retired US Army reserve colonel with 29 years in the US Army and Army Reserves, and a former US diplomat who resigned after 16 years in the US State Department in opposition to the war on Iraq.
I was one of fourteen American citizens on the Gaza flotilla.
On June 14, 2010, I delivered to the Bureau of Consular Affairs, Office of American Citizen Services a letter to you requesting investigation of the Israeli attack on the Gaza flotilla in which one unarmed American citizen was killed by Israeli commandos and fourteen other American citizens were kidnapped from international waters and taken to Israel against their will, imprisoned, and their personal possessions stolen by Israeli commandos.
Despite numerous inquiries to the State Department about the status of the response to my letter, after seven weeks I have not received a response to the letter, nor to the 80 questions that I requested that the United States government pose to the Israeli government concerning their attack on the Gaza flotilla.
As an American citizen, I am distressed that no one in the State Department government will respond to this request for assistance.
While Clinton surely knows she does not have truth on her side, she takes comfort that God surely is.
Assuming the correctness of this list, one wonders: WHO WERE THE OFFICERS and HIGHER-UPS who gave the orders? I would far prefer to indict THEM.
In future actions, ALL IDFers will wear FULL-HIJAB (i.e., black balaclavas) and no recognition of individuals will be possible.
Anyone know if such disguise is illegal, or takes the soldier outside the protections of Geneva Conventions?
pabelmont, i think the graphic above addresses the higher ups.
It would be interesting to know the ranks of the people in the list.
just google their names. some of them pop right up. like the first one Agai Yehezkel, RANK Brigadier General.
Why would a general in the Armored Corp be included in this list?
And if Turkey had killed/executed 8 Israeli human rights activist and one US/Israeli dual citizen and shot several of them in the back of the head at close range (go read the report). The Israeli government/Mossad would surely knock every individual off one by one. No matter how many years it took
It is apparently the IHH that compiled this list, not Turkish intelligence.
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-257966–prosecutor-facebook-flotilla-attackers-list-drawn-up-by-ihh.html
interesting
well, there are bound to be different statements made so we will have to keep abreast of the news on this.
I imagine there was a lot of special forces cooperation between Israel and Turkey in the past. That would make a lot of Turkish military people able to identify many of their Israeli counterparts.
Anybody who wanted the Turkish military not to cooperate with Erdogan made a very dumb move if he helped the PKK Kurdish rebels to mount that rocket attack on the Turkish naval base at Iskenderun (the base, near the Syrian border, from which any Turkish naval assistance to the flotilla would have come) two hours before the Israeli attack on the Freedom Flotilla. A PKK attack that killed six Turkish sailors.
I am sure they worked hand in hand w/ the MIT. Saber rattling w/ Israel is Erdogan’s pet project, I am sure he pulled out all the stops on this one.
Saber rattling? Did you miss the part where Israel KILLED TURKISH CIVILIANS? You know, and an American civilian, whom is apparently too brown for you to care about?
Turkish citizens?
Can we get clarity on this?
Were they there representing Turkey or were they there are internationals? If they were there representing Turkey then we have a declaration of war. If they were there as internationals, then it’s different.
PICK.
too brown for me to care about? how do you know how brown I am? how does accusing me of being a racist help your cause Chaos?
If a person isn’t representing his country, that makes it OK to kill him?
“If they were there representing Turkey then we have a declaration of war.”
No, dumbass. You might have an “act” of war, such as Israel has committed with impunity against its neighbors on regular basis and has for decades. (It wouldn’t be, but let’s just pretend…) A declaration of war requires, as the term suggests, a declaration.
“You might have an “act” of war”
Act, declaration. I care not. Act of war is fine. As far as I know, the Israeli government has never committed an act of war against Turkey.
“As far as I know, the Israeli government has never committed an act of war against Turkey.”
Except for the whole piracy-on-the-high-seas-and-murder-of-its-citizens-in-international-water thing, no doubt.
So again, just to be clear, are you saying that the Mavi Marmara was officially representing Turkey and that Turkey committed an act of war by trying to run Israel’s blockade?
Damn, why can’t you just pick an interpretation?
What the hell are you talking about??? My position is that a bunch of pigs in uniform pirated a ship in international waters and murdered, in cold blood, my fellow American. And, to add insult to injury, the American government refuses to do anything about it. And, no, it does not appear that they were officially repsenting Turkey. I never suggested they were. That’s your delusion.
Were Israel ships representing Israel state when they sailed against Egypt blockade ?
No hophmi, the maritime terrorism treaty that Israel signed gives jurisdiction to the flag country (and the port country) on terrorist acts against ships in international waters. This jurisdiction includes criminal prosecution of the alleged terrorists.
Well, whoever compiled the list, good job. May they all be brought to justice, one way or another.
hophmi, re your allegation the IHH compiled this list, they didn’t. i heard from my friend in turkey.
it does seem unlikely a deputy public defender for the city of istanbul is involved in this investigation run out of the turkish governments ministry of justice. that would be akin to having a deputy public defender for the city of chicago making statements about something holder is prosecuting. whole different branch of government, but then i don’t know enough about the turkish government to be sure. let’s hear what Mehmet Akif Ekinci of Turkey’s Ministry of Justice has to say before jumping to conclusions.
It’s not my assertion. It’s what the article said. This is the headline:
“Prosecutor: Facebook flotilla attackers list drawn up by İHH”
And it doesn’t make sense for the victims to be involved in making the accusation?
This is excellent news. In order to be held accountable, we have to know the names of these people; we have to know who fired the shots that killed innocents, and who dropped the bombs that did the same. Israel goes to great lengths to shield the identities of these people.
As Ilan Pappe says, it is not enough to just say “Israel did this, or Zionists did that” — we have to document the names, faces, and actions of these criminals so they can be rightfully brought to justice.
Seems that things are moving in this direction.
The Zionists project is unraveling before our very eyes. No surprise, all racists ideologies eventually die…
I count 167 names in that list.
According to JPost, the Israeli government is taking this report very seriously: IDF to legally protect ‘Marmara’ raid soldiers: After Turkish news reports claim intelligence agencies complied list identifying 174 soldiers, IDF takes legal precautions.:
Related Ha’aretz story: Gaza flotilla probe to examine IDF’s handling of past war crimes charges: Investigation by Turkel Commission meant to determine if IDF soldiers would be exposed to prosecution in foreign countries according to international law.:
How’s that supposed to protect the Israeli soldiers? The murders on the Mavi Marmara were committed on Turkish soil (a Turkish vessel) in international waters.
International law stipulates that for soldiers of one country to be prosecuted by another the country in which the war crime was committed has to be proven as unable to properly investigate the incident.
but the crime didn’t take place in israel. it took place in international waters.
Turkish intelligence put those ‘activists’ on the Mavi Marmara to martyr themselves so they could then sever ties with Israel. It is pretty obvious this was an intelligence operation perpetrated by the MIT from the start.
the MIT and the Pakistani ISI are cut from the same cloth.
If this is going to be the new hasbara spin on MİT, an organization that has a long history of cooperating with U.S. and Israeli intelligence, I don’t think Israel is going to get much of the support from the Turkish military that it has been hoping for.
Speaking of intelligence operations before the attack on the Freedom Flotilla, how about that PKK Kurdish rebel attack on the Turkish naval base at İskenderun near the Syrian border, the base from which any Turkish naval support for the flotilla would have come, two hours before the Israeli attack on the flotilla?
LOL@DBG
Seems you guys have an excuse for everything. Interpret people’s actions and make up stories to justify immoral behavior. There is zero evidence to support your claim. Bullets rained down on the activists prior to the fast roping. They weren’t plastic either. Israel interpreted it as a provocation justifying a military response to send a message. Unfortunately it didn’t exactly send a good message.
It’s funny you would come up with something outrageous like that yet shrug off the far more incriminating circumstantial evidence indicating that Israel had something to do with 9/11 and foreknowledge at the very least.
Charon
What have you got linking Israel to 9/11 ? It makes a lot of sense
Get a new tinfoil hat NBG. Where did you read that? The someplace that says one man one vote means a one world government?
And the moon landing was fake too right?
Justin Raimondo’s book The Terror Enigma lays out a lot of the evidence that Israelis at least had foreknowledge of 9/11. And it’s sourced with a lot of footnotes to mainstream media reports.
lysias, I don’t know the book, but my understanding is that Israel (and many other countries) had issued plenty of warnings to the US – some of them precise enough to have Pentagon generals cancel their flights for the morning of 9/11. You find a list here:
link to projectcensored.org
To come up with an answer re who did it as fast as the Bush admin did would indicate that they knew who did it before it was done, which raises the question why air defense failed rather than be on high alert, and why the POTUS had nothing more urgent to do than reading children stories in Florida. Warning fatique? Gross negligence? Inside job? One caveat surely applies here: Never ascribe to malice what can be sufficiently explained with incompetence.
Turkish news reports claimed intelligence agencies had compiled a list identifying 174 soldiers
I wonder what help the Turks got from foreign intelligence agencies. It’s Lieberman vs the World (- the US) and it doesn’t matter how hot the Shin Bet and Mossad are (forget about the shoddiness in Dubai for a moment) – they just don’t have the resources to fight the world. At the end of the day Zionism is 5.5 million Jews. Lieberman is a fruitcake.
I understand there are interpol warrants out for those 20 or so Mossad assassins that carried out that killing in Dhubai and now another group of Israelis will have international arrest warrants chasing them. This keeps up a significant proportion of the Israeli population will be confined to staying on that sliver of land on the Eastern Mediterranean. It must be getting a little claustrophobic for them.
“It must be getting a little claustrophobic for them.”
The deeper into the occupation they go, the more they cut off themselves from the outside world. It’s like a trance. Some sort of hasidic chant state. Israel isn’t run rationally any more. So they lose Turkey, they lose Egypt, they alienate Europe. Underlying it all is their belief in their own superiority and the belief in technology.
I think the Mavis Marmara was flagged in the Comoros Islands, so they have jurisdiction. I seem to recall that the Chief of Staff (Ashkenazi ) and Defense Minister (Barak) both denied giving the order to proceed, this was the day after it happened.
I, personally, am uncomfortable with listing the names of the troops and junior officers, they are as much victims of this misbegotten, poorly conceived and executed operation. The senior guys, yes, absolutely.
Junior soldiers should still be punished accordingly – they always have the choice of refusing orders if they deem them ‘irregular’ to their understanding of their duties, hence the refuseniks.
One interesting thing about the Comoros Islands. While both Turkey and Israel are not parties to the ICC, the Comoros Islands is.
If this list indicates the quality of their information , we have nothing to worry about. For example :Avi Bnayahu is the former IDF spokesperson, Yom-Tov Samia was retired from the IDF in 2001, Eliezer Shkedi commanded the IAF until 2008 and is now CEO of ElAl…and that’s just from a first glance at the list. It looks like they just Googled “IDF” and posted whatever names appeared .
More info, Jon. It’s great.
The thing about the Ziobots is they can’t stop.
Eliezer Shkedi won’t be travelling to Turkey again.
yeah, I have tried that with a few ppl, outside of bibi, barak and ashkenazi, I really am doubting the credibility of this report.
TOTALLY unlike the IDF stormtroopers themselves who bomb hospitals, schools, mosques, fishing boats, refugee camps, ambulances, UN personnel, etc. and then pretend like every civilian they murder is a terrorist.
funny the list annie printed above looks alot like this list regarding caste lead:
this gets more laughable by the hour.
link to site.www.umb.edu
You are right, this list is basically a copy of those of Cast Lead. Ynet rips it apart:
link to ynet.co.il
(no English translation yet)
Seems you have been taken for a ride Annie and that the Turks behind this list are just plain idiots.
(no English translation yet)
try google.
really?Ami Ayalon is not on this list. neither is Ze’ev Almog. where is the list published in hebrew? can you find it? it looks like they might be working off a different list than the one published by the turkish government.
annie when it comes to israel, the name of the game is ‘obfuscate’…..
They would be war criminals too, in which case, the liar is just as useful.
Based on the JPost report cited above, it appears the IDF are also fakling for it.
Funny isn’t it? As funny as Doron Almog staying in his El Al plane on the tarmac at Heathrow for 2 hours instead of disembarking as originally planned so he wouldn’t be arrested.
link to independent.co.uk
There will be no hiding place for people who kill for the Jewish state.
you guys can all continue to try to deflect from annie’s post, but the fact is this list is a fraud.
It’s not for us to determine but rather the prosecutor. Neither my nor your opinion counts. Mehmet Akif Ekinci’s does.
No DBG,
The fact is that you and eee are desperate to beleve it is.
how can you not admit this one Shingo, seriously? it is the exact same list as the one which was posted on an anti-Israel website following caste lead? the fact that you can’t admit this simple fact is mind blowing to me.
LOL Shingo you crack me up!
cough it up big shot. publish it. where’s your evidence? show me this exact list from cast lead. of the soldiers.
You don’t even consider what was done to Furkan Dogan to be a crime, DBG. And then there’s the HUNDREDS of children that were murdered in Operation Cast Lead itself, which you endorse.
You have no business calling anyone else a denier, Denier.
for the second time (on this thread annie) here is the list which was being circulated on anti-Israel websites (with zero proof anyone but the highest echelon had anything to do with caste lead)
now compare the names on the list you provided us, it is laughable.
link to site.www.umb.edu
link to ynetnews.com
gee how impressive/not. lets’s check out the first 5 on your link:
checking 201001250016:
woa, nothing like proving your point/not. here’s #2
what’s your point? where’s the cast lead data? quit wasting our time .put up or stfu.
as an aside i was around blogging here after cast lead. i have no recollection of turkey publishing a list of war criminals so i’d like to see it. certainly it hit the mainstream did it not? so where is it?
or are you full of hot air? replacing real data with bogus links?
annie, what are you talking about?
link to site.www.umb.edu
you are missing the point, Turkey didn’t publish a list, it was published on some anti-zionist website. the “turkish intelligence” merely recycled the names and said they were responsible for the flotilla. OMG annie, are you tired or something? why is this so hard to grasp?
Go gedim annie girl! LOL! DGB is messing with Sherlock Holmes’s researcher and muse!
DBG is a liar and a propagandist, plain and simple. Why else would he calling US veterans who survived an Israeli attack “whiners?”
the “turkish intelligence” merely recycled the names and said they were responsible for the flotilla.
so cough it up dude. where did the turkish intelligence republish these names and claim they were responsible? don’t give me 3rd hand sites. you’ve been bloviating all over this thread, so cough it up or stfu.
annie, the site which hosted the data originally was taken down because their actions were against the terms of service.. can you read?
link to ynetnews.com
taxi, dbg is a joke. his new link provides nothing connecting turkey to this info.
YNet also claims that there were bombs in every single mosque in Gaza. Don’t believe everything you’re spoon-fed by your foreign masters, DBG.
Chaos, will you show me a link where YNET claimed there were bombs in EVERY SINGLE mosque in Gaza? if not quit lying.
So why isn’t the IDF getting the joke then DBG?
IDF to legally protect ‘Marmara’ raid soldiers: After Turkish news reports claim intelligence agencies complied list identifying 174 soldiers, IDF takes legal precautions.:
link to jpost.com
Shingo, stay focused man, did you see the lists were exactly the same between caste lead and the flotilla. Do you find that odd that an artillery commander would be on the list of those responsible for the flotilla attacks?
The lists, probably both of them, are complete BS. If you look at the girl in as the #8 most wanted war criminal in Israel, she would have been 20 when they listed her as a commander during Caste Lead. I doubt the IDF has any 20 year old women who are commanders.
I’m always focused tin foil hat man,
Did you see how alarmed the Israeli government responded? Why do these individuals all need protecting if they are not war criminals? Cast LEasd was a war crime, so these people are criminals regardless of whether they commited crimes against the Marvi Marmara or Cast Lead.
Lo and behold! Turns out that the perpetrators of the mavi marmara massacre are exactly the same people involved in operation cast lead. Who would have believed?
Kudos to the great Turkish intelligence for there amazing breakthrough.
since cast lead called up reservists it stands to reason most of their standing military participated in cast lead. so why wouldn’t most of the soldiers involved in the raid have participated in cast lead? how does this ‘prove’ anything.
besides, all this means is those people could be tried in turkey or where ever else they plan on prosecuting. israel and the citizen of israel should consider the rules of law and war and understand not everyone is going to go along with israel flipping the bird at international law.
yes, you have a strange mind american. most people don’t go in for assassinations. that’s a state thing and a rightwing extremist thing. zionism is embedded in both the state and the rightwing.
“that’s a state thing and a rightwing extremist thing. zionism is embedded in both the state and the rightwing”
Surely terrorism and assassination is not a ‘right wing’ phenomenon? Maybe in the US which doesn’t have a Left
link to en.wikipedia.org
The RAF certainly went in for assassinations. And that’s true for the Royal Air Force and the Red Army Faction
Really, annie? How about “anna strelski, mortar teaching instructor”?
are you sure she was also part of the Israeli force stopping the marmara?
Oh, I suppose she was busy teaching soldiers how to hit children with white phosphorous at the time. Good alibi!
are you sure she was also part of the Israeli force stopping the marmara?
that’s what trials are for. i’m a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty. bring on the trials.
trials? what are you talking about? do you honestly think this list is going anywhere? Turkey would be the laughing stock of the world if they tried to charge an artillery ‘commander’ for a naval mission where no artillery was involved.
laughing stock of the world ?
in your dreams. more like heroes.
DBG hearts murderous war criminals. (As long as they’re, you know, Jewish like him.)
Annie,
Why didn’t the “brave” Turks allow the second Gaza flotilla to leave from their shores?
The list is a joke DBG is absolutely right:
link to ynetnews.com
denial denial denial. but israel would know about grabbing relatives and holding them ransom for others now wouldn’t they? wassamatta eee, no fair? seriously, i have no idea. but i will tell you one thing, grabbing a quote from one deputy prosecutor for the city of istanbul doesn’t quite cut it for a federal investigation. but then again since all the israel citizens have bailed out of turkey along with the ambassador maybe they were hard up for connections. bummer. cheerio.
Here is a full list published on November 19th 2010, it is the exact same list Annie has from above. the majority have zero to do with the Navy, how could they be implicated in the flotilla raid?
link to s242816488.onlinehome.us
And here is the Mondoweiss article about it:
link to mondoweiss.net
(notice the link no longer works like it said in the Ynet article)
Here is Annie commenting on it. Annie, you should have arranged your list as a deck of cards, it would have been a fulfillment of your with from November 17th
link to mondoweiss.net
YNet! Where the Zionist fifth column all over the world gets their
propagandahasbara“news.”DBG, thanks for that. I happen to know the name of a soldier who actually was on the Mavi Marmara. He’s not on the list.
Is the murderer a friend of yours jon?
NP, it just amazes me how it is all laid out here and they still don’t believe it. it is pretty sad.
So jon, tell us his name. Let’s verify this.
I didn’t say that I know the guy personally, just that I know the name. And I wouldn’t use the term “murderer”. The soldiers were fighting for their lives.
They turned up with guns, a list of targets to kill, an commited an act of piracy on a ship in international waters. They also shot at teh ship adn killed on passenger before they even boarded, so yes, I would certainly use the term “murderer”.
“The soldiers were fighting for their lives.”
Should have thought of that before they tried to blitzkrieg the ship.
Fighting for the lives… against unarmed people… after hijacking their ship in open seas.
Give us his name, jon. Prove that this list is inaccurate, or back off. Because I get the impression you’re lying.
A lot of hophmi and eee here. We’re on the right track. It smelled from the start, of course.
Their names are probably on the list
Got a feeling that Hasbarists are often ‘connected’ and not just people in some think tank getting paid by the hour. Apparently they’ve even foreshadowing coming events (I think it was Al Jazeera where a comment spoke an invasion of Lebanon before it happened)
A lot of fifth column DBG too. Were that he cared about US soldiers as much as he apparently cares about IDF soldiers.
My, my this subject seems to have hit an exposed nerve in our local hasbara community. Of the 123 comment so far on this thread they have posted 30. The faux defiance, threats and nonchalance they display give off the unmistakable odor of fear.
Another plank being placed into the wall of isolation being slowly built around Israel.
Why do we worry? Is this the first time our enemies have compiled lists of Jews? As we say, Ani Mashtin aleyhem
Gosh, yeah, and with Turkey hijacking ships, gassing your peaceful protesters, waging pogroms, burning whole orchards and demolishing cisterns, using munitions to set CHILDREN on fire, demolishing hospitals and schools and mosques, and… oh wait. That’s what your state is doing. My mistake!
lists of Jews?
how convenient! make an ethnic state and then when they commit war crimes pretend we notice because of their ethnicity! yeah, we don’t like your war crimes because we’re…racist! how convenient. seriously guys, is this drummed into you since birth? get a grip. excuses excuses excuses. name another occupation on the globe running as long as your apartheid, then try telling me it’s all about the jews we notice. not!
“how convenient! make an ethnic state and then when they commit war crimes pretend we notice because of their ethnicity!”
So many defenses of Israeli behavior have that “heads I win, tails you lose” quality. It’s monumentally stupid, but that often seems to work in politics, I guess because so many people approach politics with the rational part of their brain turned off.
Donald,
Really? Don’t you see in this nothing similar to the famed method of making a list of Jews and blaming the death of Christian children on them? And then of course demanding money from the Jews to be taken off the list? If you want to look serious, at least demand reasonable evidence before putting a person on the list. This list is completely random. It is just Jews that served in the IDF at some time.
Man you are so full of yourself.
They aren’t listed because they are Jews. They are listed because they are the IDF soldiers responsible for the killing of civilians.
You are so goddamn narcissistic that you twist this as an attack on Jews? DISGUSTING
This list is completely random. It is just Jews that served in the IDF at some time.
wow, why does that sound familiar. let’s look on the bright side 3e. what are the chances a special unit will assassinate a few random jews in the wrong house before apprehending one of the suspects? what are the chances a special unit will kidnap one of their relatives children in the middle of the night and torture him til he confesses his relative was on the mavi marmara or was in fact one of the shooters? what are the chances they will hold that child until one of the suspects offers himself and his confession to save his family? what are the chances his home will be demolished? or, as with the case of the recent eliat attack, what are the chances turkey will declare the verdict prior to any trial and simply bomb their homes and kill them? iow, this isn’t israel we are dealing with here, this is turkey. they are more civilized.
i’m wondering if it was you on that list and you were brought to trial and you had a choice of an israeli military kangaroo court or the kind of court turkey has in mind which would you choose? would you like charges or a simple administrative detention? what about access to the lawyer? or if perchance your choice was to confess (and be released in a 18 months) vs waiting years for a trial by military court, would you confess?
just curious.
and what are the chances the whole town he lives in will be rounded up and arrested and dna taken and hundreds of people questioned for months? and then at the end of the months turkey announces certain boys have confessed? would you believe it? would you? who pumped bullets into innocent brains eee? and who will pay, israeli style?
of one thing i am quite certain, israel will not be getting a taste of it’s own medicine. you know why i know? because turkey wouldn’t lower itself to that kind of degradation. it’s just a list. go back to bed.
Annie,
Of course it is “just” a list. We Jews are used to such lists being put forward by people what have problems with Jews.
If you want to accuse someone of doing something wrong, don’t you think you need some evidence to do it? If you endorse a list of Jewish “war criminals” don’t you think that you need some evidence that they were even close to the incident at hand? Apparently not. Just publish the list and start cheering about “justice” being served. Not only that, the people who publish the list are also “heroes” according to you. Who do you think you are fooling?
You Jews hah?
Yes, you guys love lists.
link to jpost.com
Annie,
When you start salivating over a list that is clearly bogus, what does it say about you?
link to ynetnews.com
LLI is right. If the Turks only have to come up with a random list of Jews for you to start celebrations… You would be singing a different tune if some Israelis put out a list of Americans that visited Pakistan and said they were potential terrorists.
You would be singing a different tune if some Israelis put out a list of Americans that visited Pakistan and said they were potential terrorists.
lol, what are you talking about eee. israel puts out lists all the time. go look at their jails. you think it is different if it is americans vs palestinians eee? that’s their gig in the land of apartheid. they make the lists and haul in whoever the hell they want. no trial nothing. this is so not israel, it’s turkey.
Here’s a list of Jews.
link to masada2000.org
Compiled by your enemies, of course.
jew counting! throw them to the wolves!
So the two rights make a wrong argument is the one you support. Good to know. That some idiots made a list, does not in any way shape or from make what you did less wrong.
So the two rights make a wrong argument is the one you support.
au contraire. my point being look on the bright side.
I’m not arguing that two wrongs make a right or vice versa.
I am simply pointing out listing Jews is not always a practice carried out by Gentiles, and therefore not always (contrary to what lli would have us imagine) an expression of anti-Semitism.
Well, in the Turkish case it is antisemitism because clearly there is no connection between most people on the list and the incident. Why would you put people who were not in the IDF anymore when the incident happened on the list? Why would you put people not from the Israeli Navy on the list? We both know the answer.
And we’re supposed to trust you when you say that? Then tell us who actually was responsible for the attack on the Mavi Marmara. Give us what you believe are the real names.
” We both know the answer.”
I don’t know the answer. If the list includes a lot of wrong names, it could be because the Turkish intelligence isn’t all that good after all.
Is it always anti-Semitic to suggest that some Jews have committed crimes?
There is no “therefore” — Jews can be anti-Semitic, especially Zionists. The list of SHIT (self-hating israel-threatening) Jews on masada2000 is accompanied by obscene anti-Semitic cartoons that Julius Streicher would have been proud of (or it was the last thing I looked at it).
How dare they count Jews!!!!!
Eee, where is your outrage!
This of it as a hit list of sorts:
“An IDF hit list of 16 activists to be assassinated “fell from the pocket of an Israeli commando during the boarding of the Mavi Marmara,” Yildirim stated.”
link to jpost.com
LMAO. Whenever the likes of LLI and eee start doing the “woe is us, forever victims” routine, you know that someone hit the nail on the head. Good job, Turkey.
Turkey it seems does not gloss over the killing of their citizens in international waters by Israelis.
Methinks Turkey intends to see this through….
About time a nation state held Israel accountable for its actions.
While Clinton surely knows she does not have truth on her side, she takes comfort that money surely is.
How about Turkish war criminals?
link to english.aljazeera.net
Presumably you want to see military commanders from your own country put up on trial too? US forces killed FAR far more Iraqi civilians than Turkey has.
just pointing out the hypocrisy Chaos, collateral damage is a part of war.
If you really believed that, then you’d consider what happened at Itamar (assuming for the sake of argument that those kids that were tortured for a confession actually did the murder) to be “just a part of war.” Do you?
Including the citizens of Sderot right?
are you joking Chaos? going into someone’s house and killing a family is never part of war.
Shingo, the rockets fired from Gaza are unguided, which is a war crime. I assume Turkey was not using WWII era primitive rockets.
“collateral damage is a part of war”
“the rockets fired from Gaza are unguided, which is a war crime.”
How convenient…
So to clarify DBG’s position:
Killing an Iraqi family in their home: “That’s fine.”
Killing a Palestinian family in their home: “That’s fine.”
Killing a Jewish family in their home: “That’s a crime!”
Remind us again how you’re not motivated by race hatred.
No DBG. Using rockets wihout guidance systems is not a war crime. Firing them at civlians is – and Israel does that using guidance systems.
I would agree. But there is no such thing as collateral damage. Murder is murder.
…and the crew members of the USS Liberty are still waiting for their day in court. The case of the Liberty raises my hackles more than just about any other episode in the long, sad, sordid history of US-Israel relations. Those sailors, who swore an oath to defend their country, were sold out and knifed in the back by the US gov and the top brass of the Navy. It goes beyond hypocrisy. It’s mendacity and pure wickedness. Echoes of the wickedness at the core of US-Israel relations are still heard today as in the Peace Prize winner’s speech at the UN. ‘Hypocrisy’ isn’t a strong enough word when trying to describe the germ of American -Israeli relations.
oh God, they’ve had their day in court like 5 separate times. Just because you guys don’t get the answers you like, it doesn’t mean you can continue to whine about it for eternity.
Oh yes, keep telling us how US veterans are such “whiners.” Good way to show your patriotism, DBG! (Just not for, you know, the country you were born in.)
DBG, they lied in the investigations. They lied because an American public would not respond too nicely were they aware that Israel deliberately attacked an unarmed American ship. How do we know they lied? Because when the dust was settled people came forward and said they lied. The entire crew knows it is a lie. The situation was dealt with secrecy from the start and the crew was threatened.
Every single official report starts off the US findings the same way. They mentioned that the sky was clear and visibility was perfect, that the name of the ship was in huge English letters, they mention the flag being flown shot down and replaced. That’s all you need to know. There is more but anybody with common sense can stop right there.
AIPAC’s goons are all over any event that relates to it. Israel has pieces of it as trophies of enemies in a war museum. It’s disgusting the way you pass it off as meaningless. Why did they do it? There were many reasons. The most ‘logical’ was to prevent the Americans from discovering what they were up to in Sinai.
It is a hardship reading through a lengthy thread like this in which eee, DBG, and Hophni contribute so profusely. I find myself repulsed by the cavalier manner in which they can argue false premises, fantasies, and known lies.
These are people with no scruples, no integrity. They exist to compose falsehoods, obsfucations, and justifications based in fantasy. Its despicable beyond belief.
At least their presence allows the readers to expose their lies. With every bullet point response they repeat and every Zionist rhetoric they pull out of storage it only make themselves looks foolish. Sadly they have no idea, they don’t get it.
Their tricks might still work on the random blog here and there, especially the fundie and Islamaphobia ones.
DGB and hophmi even live in the United States and they take Israel’s side when US citizens are murdered. I think it’s time we start using the word “traitor” — it fits.
I think “traitor” is the right term for people that keep calling for an uprising of Americans against their system. “Traitor” is the right term for people who believe their own government was responsible for 9/11. “Traitor” is the right term for people who think the US Congress is “bought by Zionists”.
unless it’s true
So Benjamin Franklin, Samuel Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc. you’re calling them all traitors?
ummm they waged an uprising against the British, not the US Chaos. do you guys have history classes up there in Badger country?
“Traitor” is the right term for people who think the US Congress is “bought by Zionists”.
HAHAHA
“ummm they waged an uprising against the British, not the US”
The US didn’t exist when they started. They were rebels against their rightful king, and, as such, traitors to Britain, their country.
When they declared independence, they created a new country, and were loyal to that country and its people.
None of this applies to eee’s strange ideas about treason, however. Calling for a change in the country’s system is not disloyalty if the change is intended to be for the benefit of the country. (Otherwise any MP who proposes a change would be a traitor.) An uprising against an oppressive government is not treason to the country, either.
Believing that the members of the government have deliberately harmed part of the population is not treason.
Pointing out that member of the government have been suborned and corrupted by a foreign power is not treason. It is an aid to reform of the government for the benefit of the country.
“Traitor” is the right term for people who believe their own government was responsible for 9/11. ”
The American revolutionaries had all kinds of outlandish conspiracy theories about the British Crown, and the British about them.
link to jstor.org
I think “traitor” is the right term for people that keep calling for an uprising of Americans against their system.
eee – is that an absolute rule? What do you think of the Arab Spring…the anti-war protests in the 60s…the French Revolution…the Occupy Wall Street protest?
See, this is the real threat people need to perceive. Zionism is incompatible with American loyalty. And DBG proves it. He doesn’t even care about actual history, he just needs talking points fodder to defend Israel!
What an insult.
Treason surely is by fairly common consent violent resistance or ‘aid and comfort’ to violent resistance to a legitimate government. If a government has lost (or never had) legitimacy because of injustice and violence of its own then resistance become legitimate and ceases to be treasonous. Locke argued for this in the 1690s.
Around that time someone wrote the famous verse ‘Treason doth never prosper. What’s the reason? If it do prosper, none dare call it treason’.
Non-violent civil disobedience would not be treason on this showing.
“Traitor” is the right term for the US Congress when it sells out to a foreign power.
Chaos, what are you even talking about? do you even know anymore?
You’re ignoring the extent to which the American Revolution was a civil war among Americans. The uprising was as much against the established governments of the colonies as it was against the British.
>> … eee’s strange ideas about treason …
That’s just eee’s “common sense” hard at work. The results are never very good.
Right Roha, that is why I didn’t get Chaos’ statement, his analogy made no sense.
Then go take school again, DBG, if your reading comprehension is below sixth grade level. It’s bad enough that we waste so much time on your moral deficiencies, now we’re expected to humor your intellectual deficiencies as well?
I cannot help but wonder if any of these IDF soldiers have duel American citizenship. I recall that on Aug. 16, 104 immigrating 18- to 22-year-old Americans arrived at Ben-Gurion Airport to enlist in the Israel “Defense” Force. Will they, too, attack and shoot non-violent American human rights activists on Israeli command? Or spy on Americans if/when they return?
Justice will prevail, one way or the other those iDF soldiers are going to pay the price for the killing of those 8 Turkish (and 1 American) activists on the board of the Mavi Marmara