Salon: Israel pushes US warmongering via neocon dog-tail-waggers

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Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and neonconservative William Kristol (Credit: Reuters/Gage Skidmore)

Salon’s got a doozey up. Gary Kamiya gets his rant on in his provocatively titled article  ‘The boys who cry “Holocaust”‘.  Mincing no words, he comes right out swinging characterizing Israel’s influence on the US as maintaining a stranglehold over our Mideast policy and claiming the neocons are ignorant, Islamophobic, discredited ideologues (we knew that). And it just builds from there. Check it out and by all means read the entire link for a comprehensive round up of past and present neocon war-mongering 101. From Bolton to Kristol to Goldberg including Bibi himself, ‘The boys who cry “Holocaust”’ delivers, and here’s just the tip of the iceberg:

Yet these incompetent militarists are still taken seriously. And the reason is simple: They purport to be supporters of Israel. In American politics, you can get away with even the most cracked war-mongering as long as you claim to be “pro-Israel.” And the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card for anything having to do with Israel is the Holocaust.

To listen to the neocons and hawks, you’d think Hitler was about to send the tanks over the Polish border……….

The Holocaust mind-set has led Israel into self-destructive policies. And its promiscuous invocation has helped ensure that Israel maintains a stranglehold over America’s Mideast policy. That stranglehold has always been harmful to America, but it is now actually dangerous.

Kamiya’s on a roll.  On US positioning if and when Israel attacks Iran:

In other words, it is quite likely that the most powerful nation in the world will simply stand impotently by while a tiny client state threatens to do something that it knows is not just antithetical to its interests, but possibly ruinous to them. The tail could be about to wag the dog right off a cliff.

Is it my imagination or is our way of thinking gradually permeating the mainstream?

(Hat tip MW commenter American)

About Annie Robbins

Annie Robbins is Editor at Large for Mondoweiss, a mother, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. She lives in the SF bay area. Follow her on Twitter @anniefofani
Posted in Iran, Israel Lobby, Israel/Palestine, Neocons

{ 150 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. Potsherd2 says:

    It may be penetrating the mainstream, but it has yet to penetrate Congress.

    • And there lies the greatest danger that this world has ever seen. If not for our treasonous congress, by now we would have thwarted Israel’s terror on the world. Instead, we can only look on as the destruction of the world becomes more complete each day.

      Funny thing is that with all our condemnation of Israel’s actions, we grossly underestimate what they are capable of, all with the support of our foreign congress. I predict that a false-flag attack on US soil is imminent, far more devastating than 9/11, this time accompanied by a nuclear explosion on the west coast – perhaps the Bay Area (sorry Annie, you and I are both toast).

      link to veteranstoday.com

      • annie says:

        the bay area? some of the most brilliant minds are here, including jewish minds. that would be national suicide on all fronts. don’t f w/us or there will be wrath. we’re not new orleans or nyc. take down SF and america goes under. go west young man, go west..and they did (courageous women too, obviously). we’re not the canary in the coal mine, we’re the enchilada. we’re the rock, the most forward progressive place in the nation and without us america will go under, sink like a stone, hook line and sinker, call it what you will. mark my word. and china will rage. who will prop up that lil apartheid criminal state then? no, i do not believe a false flag nuke attack will take out the bay area. people are just not that stupid.

        • Some of the best minds are also in New York, including jewish minds (albeit not the technical minds of Silicon Valley or the social conscience and culture of San Francisco city), but that didn’t stop them.

          Yes, I too am proud of the calibre of people in the Bay Area, and I would never move anywhere else. We are known for being the trouble makers for the PTB for much of our history, and a bane for Israel.

          All the more reason to target us.

    • richb says:

      No kidding. See this morning’s front page of the NY Times for all the congressional supporters of the terrorist cult, the MEK.

      link to nytimes.com

      The extraordinary lobbying effort to reverse the terrorist designation of the group, the Mujahedeen Khalq, or People’s Mujahedeen, has won the support of two former C.I.A. directors, R. James Woolsey and Porter J. Goss; a former F.B.I. director, Louis J. Freeh; a former attorney general, Michael B. Mukasey; President George W. Bush’s first homeland security chief, Tom Ridge; President Obama’s first national security adviser, Gen. James L. Jones; big-name Republicans like the former New York mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani and Democrats like the former Vermont governor Howard Dean; and even the former top counterterrorism official of the State Department, Dell L. Dailey, who argued unsuccessfully for ending the terrorist label while in office.

      This is not the first time this was reported in the NYT:

      link to nytimes.com

      A FEW weeks ago I received an e-mail from an acquaintance with the subject line: Have you seen the video everyone is talking about?

      I clicked play, and there was Howard Dean, on March 19 in Berlin, at his most impassioned, extolling the virtues of a woman named Maryam Rajavi and insisting that America should recognize her as the president of Iran.

      Ms. Rajavi and her husband, Massoud, are the leaders of a militant Iranian opposition group called the Mujahedeen Khalq, or Warriors of God. The group’s forces have been based for the last 25 years in Iraq, where I visited them shortly after the fall of Saddam Hussein in April 2003.

      Mr. Dean’s speech stunned me. But then came Rudolph W. Giuliani saying virtually the same thing. At a conference in Paris last December, an emotional Mr. Giuliani told Ms. Rajavi, “These are the most important yearnings of the human soul that you support, and for your organization to be described as a terrorist organization is just simply a disgrace.” I thought I was watching The Onion News Network. Did Mr. Giuliani know whom he was talking about?

      Former DNC head, Howard Dean, even went so far as to offer an Op Ed with Tom Ridge on fox news.com!

      link to foxnews.com

      Dean’s argument was that we should support the MEK because of the plot against the Saudi ambassador even though the co-conspirator is alleged by Iran to be a part of the MEK!

      link to nytimes.com

      Since the Republicans and Democrats disagree on everything including such minor things as JOBS all this unanimity means just one thing, Israel’s involved. A quick Google search confirmed my suspicions.

      The Guardian reported that a recent “accident” in Iran was a covert Israeli operation in conjunction with the MEK:

      link to guardian.co.uk

      A series of news reports linking Israel’s intelligence agency the Mossad to a blast at a military facility in Iran, in which 17 people were killed and a further 15 wounded, has gained widespread coverage in the Israeli media on Monday.

      While Iranian officials insist the explosion at the Bid Ganeh base was accidental, caused by the movement of ammunition, claims from anonymous western and Israeli officials that Saturday’s blast was a covert Israeli operation have gained momentum.

      Leading Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot picked up a post by US blogger Richard Silverstein claiming the Mossad had teamed up with Iranian militant group Mujahideen e-Khalq (MEK) to execute the alleged attack. MEK denies involvement in the attack.

      The MEK was also used to be a front for the Israelis to leak friendly info about the Iranian nuclear program without Israeli fingerprints. Note this cheerleading by Mrs. Rajavi:

      link to ncr-iran.org

      “It is delightful that the agency did not give in to pressure from some member states that wanted to continue to cover up the clerical regime’s nuclear projects, and exposed part of the military aspects of the regime’s nuclear drive. But the bulk of the information contained in the agency’s report, had been exposed by the Iranian resistance since many years ago and made available to the IAEA who could have been published years ago”, she added.

      Was the Iranian resistance finding out about the Iranian nuclear program or is this just a repeat concerning the so-called Iraqi resistance and Saddam’s W.M.D.s. Note this March 2006 New Yorker piece showing it’s the latter:
      link to newyorker.com

      An Iranian-American political activist told me, however, that the N.C.R.I.’s [MEK's] intelligence had actually come from Israel. This person said that Israel had earlier offered it to a monarchist group, but that that group’s leaders had decided that “outing” the regime’s nuclear program would be viewed negatively by Iranians, so they declined the offer. Shahriar Ahy, Reza Pahlavi’s [the former Shah's son] adviser, confirmed that account up to a point. “That information came not from the M.E.K but from a friendly government, and it had come to more than one opposition group, not only the mujahideen,” he said. When I asked him if the “friendly government” was Israel, he smiled. “The friendly government did not want to be the source of it, publicly, If the friendly government gives it to the U.S. publicly, then it would be received differently. Better to come from an opposition group.” Israel is said to have had a relationship with the M.E.K. at least since the late nineties, and to have supplied a satellite signal for N.C.R.I. broadcasts from Paris into Iran. When I asked an Israeli diplomat about Israel’s relationship with the M.E.K., he said, “The M.E.K is useful,” but declined to elaborate.

      • seanmcbride says:

        How did Howard Dean end up in the same camp with neoconservatives and Republicans like James Woolsey, Rudy Giuliani and Michael Mukasey? Is the Democratic Party now as much under the thumb of the neocons as the Republican Party? (In fact, the neocons have been gloating over their control of Barack Obama for several years now.)

        Has the Israel lobby played the lead role in encouraging Dean to support the MEK? The safe bet is that it did. But it would be interesting to uncover the particular facts about this situation.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Howard Dean went soft. He used to be far too reformist and uncompromising, so the party elite drove a bus over him. (See also: the “Dean Scream”) He was left with a choice: remain true to the stances he maintained, and become an outcast in American politics; or compromise, jettison some of his standards in order to not be ejected completely from the Party.

          Guess which route he chose. It’s definitely something of a beaten path at this point.

        • American says:

          “How did Howard Dean end up in the same camp with neoconservatives”

          Should be obvious by now, actually long ago, that Dean will do anything to stay involved with politics, parrot any line he is fed by the political power structures. He’s nothing, just another mouthpiece and poodle.

        • seanmcbride says:

          Did Howard Dean get on the wrong side of the Israel lobby, and did the Lobby punish him for his transgression? I don’t have time at the moment to research this question, but I vaguely recall that this might be the case.

          I think it’s safe to say that both the Republican and Democratic Parties are now AIPAC/neocon ops — two submissive and obedient arms of the same foreign lobby. This is why there has been little pushback by Democrats against numerous extreme statements made by Republican presidential candidates on US Mideast policy. Democrats don’t dare to open their mouths on the subject for fear of being severely punished — of being “Deaned.”

        • lysias says:

          Very shortly after Dean indicated he was open to the idea of breaking up the big media conglomerates, the mainstream media went after him for that scream.

          Very soon after Gary Hart indicated he was open to the idea of a new investigation of the JFK assassination, the mainstream media went after him for the Donna Rice business.

          Very soon after Mike Gravel indicated, in a PBS News Hour interview, that he blamed the Israel lobby for the drumbeat for war with Iran, he was dropped from the Democratic presidential debates, and thereafter his campaign was ignored by the mainstream media.

      • annie says:

        Howard Dean, on March 19 in Berlin, at his most impassioned, extolling the virtues of a woman named Maryam Rajavi and insisting that America should recognize her as the president of Iran.

        Ms. Rajavi and her husband, Massoud, are the leaders of a militant Iranian opposition group called the Mujahedeen Khalq, or Warriors of God.

        o spare us pllleeease. this is perverse. i was just reading about the Warriors of God yesterday. i’ll go see if i can dig it up.

        • annie says:

          couldn’t find it just yet but ran into this great escobar article keith linked to down thread
          link to dissidentvoice.org

          As Tehran sees it, what’s really going on regarding Syria is a “humanitarian” cover for a complex anti-Shi’ite and anti-Iran operation.

          The road map is already clear. A fractious, unrepresentative Syrian National Council — Libya-style — is already in place. Same for a heavily armed Sunni “insurgency” crisscrossing the borders in Lebanon and Turkey. Sanctions are already essentially hurting the Syrian middle class. A relentless, international campaign of vilification of the Assad regime has been deployed. And psy ops abound, with the aim of seducing sections of the Syrian army to defect (it’s not working).

          A report1 by a Qatar-based researcher for the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) even comes close to admitting that the self-described “Free Syria Army” is basically a bunch of hardcore Islamists, plus a few genuine army defectors, but mostly radicalized Muslim Brotherhood bought, paid for and weaponized by the US, Israel, the Gulf monarchies and Turkey. There’s nothing “pro-democracy” about this lot – as incessantly sold by Western corporate and Saudi-owned media.

          As for the National Council, based in Washington and London and sprinkled with the usual dodgy exiles, its program calls for governing Syria alongside the same military that has been — a la the Egyptian military junta — shooting civilian protesters. Makes one think that the only sensible solution would be for the people in Syria to topple the police state Assad regime, while being vehemently against the dodgy Syrian National Council.

  2. No, it’s not your imagination. The blatant railroading by the zealots has become insufferable, not to mention dangerous. We’ve seen it all before re Iraq, and there are enough people who will refuse to observe the blanket ban on criticising Israel or its insane ideology. The catastrophic direction Israel is forcing on the US through its agents’ muzzling bills in Congress has become so unapologetic, so Dr Strangelove, that a groundswell is, quite understandably, building. Just as the US gets out of Iraq having spent trillions for no discernible benefit, the warmongers are foaming at the mouth to repeat the whole thing on a scale which could exceed Iraq enormously. There will be no good outcome, unless you count more terrorism, death and destruction as such, which the neocons do, for them it ‘proves’ they were right. There is a feeling that the lobby, an elite of media commentators and craven representatives are completely out of control, do not represent US citizens, and have the potential to create mayhem for years to come, not to mention derailing the economy even further. The country has been hijacked by ideologues, very well-off people who will not be anywhere near the danger they propose to put everybody else in. There is not even credible evidence regarding Iran’s nuclear programme, yet we are subject to hysterical fearmongering. Enough is enough, time to call them on it, have some open and frank debate for once, and junk this pathetic charade that Israel must be indulged, whatever the cost, and must never, ever by criticised or called to account. Time for the old men with their war lust to leave the stage. And take your anti-human, demagogic BS with you.

    • annie says:

      The catastrophic direction Israel is forcing on the US through its agents’ muzzling bills in Congress has become so unapologetic, so Dr Strangelove, that a groundswell is, quite understandably, building.

      we’re going to have to keep exposing this because eventually it will become so clear what’s going on congress will have to account for their groveling in the face of looming danger from these ideologues.

  3. Whizdom says:

    link to forward.com

    The Holocaust metaphor, 2011 is the new 1939

    From the Forward on the ZOA annual awards dinner. Not a democrat in sight.

    Beck, Bachman, and Ros-Lehtinen

  4. lobewyper says:

    Iran’s leaders may lack “emotional intelligence” judging by the depreciating remarks they have uttered about Israel, but as Steve Walt and many others have pointed out, there is not a shred of evidence that they are suicidal. Israel has more than enough warheads and the means to deliver them to ensure an Iranian attack would trigger retaliation that would lay waste to their entire country. This obvious point seems to keep being overlooked by the war drums folks both here and in Israel. Why??? (Thanks, Annie!)

    • annie says:

      appreciated lobewyper but the hat tip goes to american who linked to this article in one of these threads, i just grabbed and pasted for the most part.

    • lobewyper says:

      Sorry, but didn’t realize the answer to my question was implicit in the Salon article:

      “What a nuclear Iran really threatens, as several top Israeli officials have admitted, is Israeli hegemony in the region. The Arab Spring and the rise of Turkey have already begun to erode that hegemony, and Iran’s inevitable acquisition of the ability to build a bomb will further erode it. Israel cannot fight this trend. The days when it could impose its will by bullying are over. It must learn to live with its neighbors.”

      (The article also makes the point that an Iranian attack would lead to massive nuclear retaliation.)

      • annie says:

        yeah, it really is a very comprehensive article. speaking of consequences i just read an interesting article from india link to timesofindia.indiatimes.com

        World will accept Nuclear Iran, says Israeli economist

        • lobewyper says:

          It will have to accept it, if it comes to that. Moreover, If Israel preemptively attacks Iran, the resultant effects on world-wide economies (see article linked by Annie) would rapidly lead to the worst outbreak of anti-Semitism since the Holocaust, IMHO.

        • lobewyper says:

          Because of the potential dangers of such an outbreak, Israel will NEVER launch a pre-emptive strike against Iran by herself. However, she is certainly going to continue trying to get the United States to do it for (and perhaps, with) her!

        • MRW says:

          Lobewyper,

          You’re right about the global antisemitism. It will be chilling in its generational reach, and it will last for the rest of this century too for the simple reason that it will spawn books and monographs that will attempt to ask whether Hitler was right. The European laws against mentioning the holocaust will be reversed, and we will be flooded with translations of documents long hidden.

          But to the more immediate point, and one not mentioned in the Salon article, is that Russia’s military satellites are poised over the Middle East. The instant an Israeli plane takes off for Iran, the Russians will be on the phone to Iran. The entire western flank of the Iranian mountain range that traverses the NW-SE diagonal of Iran and is 1/3 of the way into Iran (what has kept that country safe for five millennia) is studded with embedded anti-aircraft missile sites. Scott Ritter described this in a talk with Seymour Hersh five years ago. He said flying into Iran from the west is a suicide mission for any country that attempts it. Furthermore, Iran has the Russian bombs that can obliterate any aircraft carrier in the Straits of Hormuz.

          The wild card is how Russia would react.

          Former head of Mossad Meir Dagan is Russian, and he is known to despise the USA. He does not like Americans of any stripe; he does not care if you are Jewish. His characterization of the stupidity of bombing Iran has zero relationship to the USA and everything to do with Israel. He considers both Netanyahu and Barak to be reckless stewards, which he said bluntly in a Haaretz article earlier this year; he said that he, General Ashkenazi, and the head of Shin Bet were always able to do an end-run around Netanyahu to keep him in line. Let’s hope the Israelis have the smarts to listen to him.

        • American says:

          “she is certainly going to continue trying to get the United States to do it for her:

          What worries me lobe, is I believe Netanyahu is so confident of the lobby’s control of the US that he thinks the US would rush in to back up Israel the minute it attacked Iran regardless that the US asked them not to do that.
          And with our congress and sorry state of politics he may be right

        • American says:

          “The wild card is how Russia would react”

          Agree MRW, what I’ve been saying also.
          I also wonder what Russia knows that Israel and the US don’t even know, their KGB wrote the book on covert intelligence and still owns it by all accounts.

        • American says:

          “would rapidly lead to the worst outbreak of anti-Semitism since the Holocaust, IMHO.”

          Sometimes I think it’s only my own lying eyes that keep me from questioning my own sanity.
          Cause how can anyone explain this:…?

          Jews sacred to death of being despised into another holocaust.
          BUT….
          Jews (some) demand release of Pollard, worse traitor in US modern history, because he’s Jewish and did it for Israel.
          Jews (some) demand US get into war with Iran for Jewish state.
          Jews (some) always quoted in msm on how their 1st US political concern is Israel.
          Jewish congressional cohorts rush to Israel to promise them US money no matter how Americans are suffering.
          Jewish lobby, with no shame, US taxpayer money sucking machine for Israel.
          Jews (some) applaud Netanyahu for humilating US president.
          Jews (some) constantly appearing in msm threatening US politicians if tbey don’t supprt Israel.
          All in public with no attempt to hide it.

          Yep, like being scared to death of water and jumping in it and splashing around as hard as they can every chance they get. I don’t believe for a second they are really afraid of another holocaust.

        • I watched the video of the Egyptian activists — getting hurt, killed; and they are the age of my children.
          I cried. I couldn’t stop crying.
          Pray god my children do not have to put their young and promising lives on the line to save their country, the United States, that has gone mad.k
          But whether bloodletting does or does not come to our children’s generation, their live are fundamentally impacted by the warmongers. The US has become a pariah state, doing things alien to its founding charter.
          That is tragic.
          But you really don’t want to be in my line of sight if my children are harmed.
          I have no concept of how Palestinian and Iraqi and Afghani and Iranian women do it — watch their children get killed, shredded, and not rip the face off the next person they see who might have caused that death. I don’t think I would be able to restrain myself.

          Here’s another thing, American — you very politically correctly inserted (some) in front of every reference to Jews acting badly, lest you be accused of generalizing the behavior of some to the entirety.
          Well done.
          Perhaps you could send the message to Mark Kirk, Brad Sherman, and the entire Israeli government — Kirk and Sherman are all for punishing the ENTIRE Iranian public until they knuckle under. That’s collective punishment.
          And the Israeli government and its acolytes in the US are all for punishing all Palestinians AS WELL AS the entire Iranian public — more collective punishment.

          So good for you, you don’t cast ALL Jews in the same collective.

          But to paraphrase Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA), “Critics [of sanctions generalizing critiques to ALL Jews] argued that these measures will hurt the Iranian JEWISH people. Quite frankly, we need to do just that.

          ALL JEWS have got to take this fight to the fellow Jews (oh, and J Street — no, it is not Obama’s problem to solve, it is YOUR problem to solve). If they don’t, someone else will.

        • lobewyper says:

          American, whether the US would back an Israeli strike is the question. I don’t think there is going to be a strike, by anyone. Even with US backing/or participation, the perception is still going to be that a strike was Israel’s idea, and there is still going to be serious anti-Semitic backlash, because it is well known that Israel owns the US government from the president on down.

          For the US to back Israel against Iran would lead to the alienation of too many people, cause too much havoc in the world economy, and the American people are sick of war.

          The US-Israeli grand strategy may be something like this: Stir up as much discussion of a proposed strike against Iran as possible, and keep the sheeple focused on it. In the meantime, the Israelis will use this focus to distract attention from increasingly aggressive land theft in the West Bank. Later, when war is “averted” at the last minute, Obama can take the credit for bringing the Israeli government back to its “senses.”

        • American says:

          Here’s something of interest for you Lobe…from Jim Lobe’s site:

          “Arshin Adib-Moghaddam’s latest piece in the Guardian is a timely read. Unlike some of the histrionics behind contemporary Iran analysis, Adib-Moghaddam actually uses facts and numbers – which unfortunately is a novel concept to the larger Iran debate. Money Quote:

          “‘But that narrative [Iran’s economic crisis] does not correspond to the facts. The World Bank set the economic growth of Iran at 3.0% in 2010, and the IMF says nominal GDP grew from $330.5bn in 2009 to $360bn in 2010. The IMF recently wrapped up a visit to Iran and commended the government for early successes with the subsidy reform programme and the advances in the financial sector, which is boosted by a buoyant stock market. The argument that Iran is economically isolated does not hold either. According to the most recent UNCTAD report, foreign direct investment to the country has increased exponentially from $1.6bn in 2008 to $3.6bn in 2010. This does not mean that there are no serious economic problems in the country; there are many and they range from corruption to structural inefficiency. It means that there is another side to the Iran story that is subdued for ideological reasons. Ultimately, the US and to a lesser extent the European Union are disqualifying themselves from the Iranian market during a period of intense economic calamity. China and Russia say “thank you”.

          Hummmm…how long will Israel stand for Iran not going down on sanctions?

        • American says:

          “Here’s another thing, American — you very politically correctly inserted (some) in front of every reference to Jews acting badly, lest you be accused of generalizing..”

          Thanks teta but I am famously Politically Incorrect as everyone here knows.
          I use some because’ some’ is accurate and a uncomplicated word.
          And I have browbeat my politicians on the I/P and Israel issues so often it’s a wonder I’m not on the no-fly list.
          It will change eventually, can’t go on this way I don’t think. Something is bound to happen.

        • Taxi says:

          Guys guys guys let’s be clear on definitions here:
          Antisemitism: Hostility towards or prejudice against INNOCENT jews.

          A reactive hostility towards CRIMINAL jews AIN’T ANTISEMITISM!

        • lobewyper says:

          Thanks, American. Great find! Another quote from Arshin:

          “If the analysis of a country is wrong the policy prescriptions are bound to be wrong too. Afghanistan and Iraq are very good examples of that relationship between the absence of sound knowledge on a country and strategic failure.”

        • annie says:

          american, Jews (some)…. Jews (some)…. Jews (some)….

          this reminds me of the big pedophilia sex scandal being kept somewhat under wraps in brooklyn/borough park. listen to the radio program. my take on it is you’ve got a few powerful people in the community dictating, over and above common sense and the law, how the jewish community should deal with sex abuse for the purpose of not vilifying the community. all at the expense of their own children.

          but, as the radio show makes clear from the people who call in as does groups like survivors for justice the people who are fighting very hard to end this abuse and have perpetrators be held accountable..who are they? they are jews. it’s the community all around outside the jewish community, the rest of us, who treat this scandal differently..the same way israel is being treated differently. why? why no penn state screaming headlines? that’s not just the fault of jews, it’s the fault of all of us.

          if we get dragged into another war with iran it would be drastically unfair to blame the jewish community when for the most part it is the extremists within the community dictating the meme. and it’s not a meme followed solely by the jewish community as it pertains to them, it is all of us allowing a separate standard as it pertains to them. so why is that? we (americans who are not jewish) are just as much to blame for not speaking out against extremism as those within the community. but everyone is for the most part silent about it. well, not silent about iran (or support for israel) and not silent about pedophilia but for the most part silent about whose driving this push to war with iran as well as silent about whose pushing this silence on reporting this sex scandal as it pertains to them. and the results are the same on both issues for members of the jewish communities, they become outcasts. but we are as much to blame for allowing extremists to dictate an exceptional position and attitude for one community for fear of being accused of villifying the jewish community. it’s got to stop. and if there is a wave of anti semitism that sweeps the country i will fight it with all my might because we are as much to blame.

          we have to shout these nutjobs down, not mimic the responses of those who succumb to this mindset because it makes us as brainwashed as their followers.

          teta mother me,
          ALL JEWS have got to take this fight to the fellow Jews

          all of us. as americans of conscience we have speak in a load unified voice. we cannot dump this problem solely on the laps of other jews to stand up to their extremists. we don’t do that to our other minority groups. we don’t call on the hispanic community to fix the immigration problem and wash our hands of it. we’re all effected by the impact so it becomes all of us responsible to fight back.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Annie that’s hopelessly naive. There are a lot of non-Jews who can’t speak out so openly because the Zionist Inquisition will get us labeled as “anti-Semites” and get us blacklisted in our careers. There’s a reason I’m so furtive about who I am, exactly where in the Midwest I live and where I work. I’d like to think my boss’s boss is fair, but I can’t afford to take the risk.

          Some of us labor under a very real risk of losing our jobs — and not just our jobs, but possibly our careers — by speaking out for Palestinian human rights. That doesn’t stop me from doing so but I’m very careful. And that means I can’t afford to speak out about the Jewish community. The risk is too high.

          The Jewish community, in the US and elsewhere, has built a massive fortress society around itself and this is the consequence. People are afraid of Jews. (Congrats, eee, you’ve gotten exactly what you wanted there.) As far as I’m concerned, the fight you’re describing is totally internal to the Jewish community and no one else can afford to fight it.

        • seanmcbride says:

          annie,

          To what extent would you attribute blame for the crimes of Nazism on “the German community” of Germany and around the world at the time?

          If the organized Jewish establishment succeeds in promoting a war against Iran that leads to a catastrophic outcome for Americans and much of the world, how much responsibility should it be forced to assume for its actions?

        • lobewyper says:

          The Israelis IMHO are bluffing. They get ex-heads of the Mossad to say publicly that an Iran attack would be catastrophic for Israel, yet the Israeli leadership “appear” to be unmoved by such arguments. Result: so long as they remain in power, others will believe that they just might do it–even alone. (I realize I have just accused former Mossad leaders of complicity in helping deliberately to mislead not only their countrymen but all the rest of us! Hope Israeli drones can’t reach the Midwest…).

          This “We’ll go it alone if we have to” is simply too risky. Not only is the risk of losing US aid great (due to $10 gas, etc.), but they also risk huge losses of financial support from Diasporan Jews. My advice, Bibi: “Cut the best deal you can as fast as you can.” Time is definitely running out!

        • seanmcbride says:

          I am predicting that there is a high probability that Zionism is going to lead to the worst outbreak of anti-Semitism in world history, all around the world all at once, and especially in the United States. And it should be obvious by now that quite a few Zionists are banking on this outcome and looking forward to it. They are dangerously insane.

        • seanmcbride says:

          True or false: mystical rhetoric about the sacredness of Jewish peoplehood and nationhood is precisely like mystical rhetoric about the sacredness of Aryan peoplehood and nationhood employed by Nazis and white nationalists. This kind of messianic rhetoric is often used by leading members of the contemporary Jewish and Zionist establishment.

          Who should be held responsible for legitimizing, enabling and mainstreaming these attitudes and ideas? The community as a whole?

        • seanmcbride says:

          What could be a more dangerous game than for any small ethnic group in a complex multicultural society to try to bully and intimidate all ethnic outsiders and the society as a whole into absolute submission through threats and fear? There is no conceivable way that these kinds of methods can succeed in the long run. Predictably they will provoke a powerful backlash down the line.

        • lobewyper says:

          Sean,

          I’m not so sure Zionism (in the absence of an attack upon Iran) will lead to an anti-Semitic outbreak. Why? Because there won’t be an attack on Iran which at best would probably set back an Iranian nuclear program a few years at best. Then (when the anti-Semitic wave is in full swing due to the initial attack), they will have to attack again, increasing anti-Semitism still further. Way too risky and the Israelis aren’t that stupid. If they ARE that stupid, they will richly deserve their subsequent fate!

        • seanmcbride says:

          lobewyper,

          My prediction does not rely on a disastrous attack on Iran for its fulfillment. What I am noticing is the convergence of several trends: 1. the increasing radicalization of Zionism and Zionists in general (especially with the growing importance of messianic religious Zionism and Zionists, both Jewish and Christian). 2. the steady escalation of personal attacks by pro-Israel activists on influential Americans and Europeans, which are no doubt arousing the wrath of those who have been attacked. 3. the likely catastrophic economic consequences for Americans and Europeans of the entire Global War on Terror and Clash of Civilizations propaganda campaign (and con game), which will inevitably be blamed on the neoconservative and Christian Zionist wings of the Israel lobby (which have loudly presented themselves to the world as authoritative representatives of “the Jews” — all Jews).

          But the most important factor of all: many Zionists seem to be turned on by apocalyptic biblical scenarios which pit Israel against “the nations.” It’s a powerful drug for them, one which they cannot resist. I am predicting that they actualize their delusional beliefs in the real world, with easily foreseeable results.

        • annie says:

          There are a lot of non-Jews who can’t speak out so openly because the Zionist Inquisition will get us labeled as “anti-Semites” and get us blacklisted in our careers.

          no that is not true, there are a lot of non-Jews who won’t speak out for those reasons, not ‘can’t’.

          the fight you’re describing is totally internal to the Jewish community and no one else can afford to fight it.

          that’s crazy. and if those jews working internally can’t manage to fight it then who pays the price? don’t you think that is an awfully big load to put on the shoulders some jews? you don’t think they risk being blacklisted? we have to stand up just like Kamiya has with this article. it’s an american problem, not just a jewish problem. there are hundreds of millions of us and stupid to think we should all be in fear of speaking out. that’s what allows this festering ‘special relationship’ to grow.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          You might be fine with throwing away everything you worked hard for and put yourself in debt for, so that you didn’t have to work jobs that involved peddling crappy Chinese imports, selling worthless insurance over the phone or exposing yourself to industrial carcinogens every day for the rest of your life, but I’m not.

          And it’s stupid. No amount of influence will change the Jewish community from the outside. Jewish community, Jewish problem. All of us have our own problems and they just aren’t victims in this case. I’ll stick to sticking my neck out for African Americans and Hispanics and Muslims and people who actually need my help, thanks, annie. The Jewish community ain’t exactly hurting for resources to solve its own problems.

        • annie says:

          Who should be held responsible for legitimizing, enabling and mainstreaming these attitudes and ideas? The community as a whole?

          i think you are missing my point. we have a big problem that requires a big voice of rejection. we all need to take responsibility to FIX the problem. that is what i meant by ‘all of us’. not ‘ALL JEWS have got to take this fight to the fellow Jews’ but all of us need to confront the neocons and their supporters and tell them they can no longer go on dictating american foreign policy, we want them our, we voted them out and they are still here. then we need to loudly communicate to places like the NYT and ask them ‘why are you shoving these discredited warmongering freakjobs down our throat again?’

          we can’t just sit back in silence for fear of being called anti semitic and rely on the jewsih community to fix itself internally. THAT is a recipe for disaster. that is exactly what the extremists WANT you to do, ‘leave israel alone’. ‘let the jewish community decide our policies for israel’ NO THANK YOU.

        • annie says:

          then what are you here for chaos? why aren’t you just leaving it to the jewish community?

          what i’m hearing you saying is we should all just back out, the other 98% of us, and leave the doing and thinking to the other jews. how helpful/not.

          nothing like throwing our allies in the jewish community under a bus.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          “‘let the jewish community decide our policies for israel” is easy to solve. Take the money out of American politics. It doesn’t require us meddling in the affairs of the Jewish community.

          Annie, nobody has any responsibility to “save” the Jewish community, except Jews. For the rest of us, we have the greater community to worry about. Even if the American Jewish community was saintly and guiltless they still shouldn’t have absolute control over US foreign policy like they do now.

          That’s our problem, right now. Everything else is secondary. I couldn’t care less about whether the Jewish community cleaves itself in twain when right now, my nephew is growing up facing being press-ganged into a war with Iran.

          The consequences for non-Jews confronting what you’re talking about are FAR far greater than Jews, annie. That’s just a fact. It’s a waste of resources. And if you hadn’t noticed, Mondoweiss isn’t exclusively Jewish in character. Not by a long shot.

        • annie says:

          What could be a more dangerous game than for any small ethnic group in a complex multicultural society to try to bully and intimidate all ethnic outsiders and the society as a whole into absolute submission through threats and fear?

          it is only part of a small ethnic group doing that. it’s completely racist to blame an entire ethnic group for the actions of some. i can’t believe we are even having this conversation.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          The small part you are talking about are the LEADERS of said ethnic group, annie. “Just following orders” is never a valid defense, of anything.

        • lobewyper says:

          Sean,

          My take: Unless “their delusional beliefs in the real world” lead to an attack upon Iran, I don’t think I agree with you (although I’m hardly an expert on foreign policy!). Re: your point # 2–I think you’re overestimating the effects of this. Re: #3, it won’t be all that easy to pin the War on Terror on the (mostly Jewish) neocons. John Mearsheimer said in a lecture at the U. of Chicago this past summer that the Bush government at the time believed that Saddam and Al Qaeda were “joined at the hip.” The neocons pushed things over the edge, but the Iraq war can’t be laid entirely on them. Further, the MSM will never be permitted (or permit itself) to open the door to anti-Semitic sentiment.

          I agree generally with your implication that things are seriously worsening by the minute for the Israelis, and that in the process of “circling the wagons,” they are becomingly increasingly resistant to reason. I think that the Edgar Bronfmans and other influential diasporan Jews are going to have to step up, because no one else (especially, the US government) is in a position of influence with them.

          The American people are already suffering due to the financial crisis, and they do not appreciate having to do so to provide foreign aid (see Ron Paul’s popularity). Since Israel gets the lion’s share of aid, they are treading on very thin ice.

          The average American still sees Israel as David and the Arab/Muslim world as Goliath. He/she also sees it as “the only democracy in the middle east.” As these misconceptions continue to weaken, so will the support of the American public–something I believe is inevitable.

          The US high-level leadership knows of the views of people like Phil, Adam, Steve Walt, and many others. Walt for one has presented to the CIA and the US War College. Just maybe, our leadership is looking for a way out. Recall Hillary’s praise for Al Jazeera (now we have it for an hour a day in Chicago). Why did she praise it? Maybe because getting Al Jazeera is one important step to awakening the American public to the truth of the situation–a truth that has to be told by folks outside the government due to AIPAC et al.!

        • annie says:

          Annie, nobody has any responsibility to “save” the Jewish community, except Jews.

          i’m sorry chaos. i can’t keep track of everything i’ve said on this thread. could you copy the part where i was advocating ‘saving the jewish community’ so i could address it in context of the conversation. thanks.

          The consequences for non-Jews confronting what you’re talking about are FAR far greater than Jews, annie. That’s just a fact. It’s a waste of resources.

          i’m really not following you. it seems to me you are advocating non jews stay out of it while at the same time spending your time fighting against what you perceive as undo influence by powerful members of one ethnic group. i thought you weren’t jewish. if this is a problem you think only jews should solve why are you in this conversation.

          you’ve got to pick one position or the other chaos, you can’t pretend like you’re not being an activist while you’re being an activist. you’re either in this or you aren’t. or do you only speak up anonymously online? is that what the other 98% are afforded? an anonymous voice online? do you think george mitchell should have stayed out of it too. after all, he’s not jewish.

          we just disagree. obviously christian zionists are all over the place blathering what america should do for israel and they aren’t jews. i think the louder we are the better. i want a big american conversation and i want it NOW.

          that’s my opinion, it’s an american problem and it’s going to take an american solution, not a jewish american solution. and when things go to hell in a handbasket if we genocide iran i’m going to be holding america responsible, not just ‘the jewish community’.

        • lobewyper says:

          P.S. Here’s a possible move:

          Offer to trade Pollard for all the remaining Palestinians still imprisoned by Israel! :)

        • Chaos4700 says:

          I’m in this conversation because you’re advocating that people throw themselves off a cliff when the safety cushion at the bottom isn’t even inflated. Annie, people get RUINED for standing up to the Lobby, and not just in politics.

          If American Jews are indeed reforming, and they indeed need help, then they have to do something about that first. It’s one thing for someone to jump into sub-arctic waters to save someone who’s drowning (i.e. Palestine), it’s another thing to ask them to jump off a plane without a parachute to fetch a falling briefcase with really important papers in it (i.e. what you’re talking about).

        • annie says:

          “Just following orders” is never a valid defense, of anything.

          in case you have not noticed chaos, there are a lot more people ‘just following orders’ here than those in the jewish community. a LOT more. in fact i hold those in congress more responsible than my jewish neighbor across the street.

        • annie says:

          I’m in this conversation because you’re advocating that people throw themselves off a cliff

          source. copy and paste please.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          We’re both wasting time. You have no idea what you’re demanding people to put themselves through for a futile effort, and if I’m right, I’m sure some day you’ll feel sorry for that. I’ve said what I’ve said and I’m moving on.

        • annie says:

          you’re demanding people to put themselves through for a futile effort, and if I’m right, I’m sure some day you’ll feel sorry for that.

          sure chaos, getting all drama queenie on us. you’ve made a bunch of allegations and accusations you have no intention of backing up, because you can’t. if you could defend “you’re advocating that people throw themselves off a cliff ” you would. instead you tell me i’ll feel sorry someday for my position and claim i am “demanding” something. you tell me nobody has any responsibility to “save” the Jewish community except jews, using quotes, but i can’t recall that we were even in a conversation about “saving” the jewish community. excuse me?

          plus, i ask you politely for clarification and you double down on the rhetoric on your way out the door.

          I’m moving on.

          smart move.

        • seanmcbride says:

          annie:

          You wrote:

          “it is only part of a small ethnic group doing that. it’s completely racist to blame an entire ethnic group for the actions of some. i can’t believe we are even having this conversation.”

          The contemporary Jewish establishment is powerfully and overwhelmingly dominated by militant Zionists who loudly and conspicuously claim to speak for “the Jews” as a whole. They have drilled this belief deeply into the minds of most Americans and Europeans, who don’t have have the time and energy to sift through the subtleties of Zionist and Jewish politics, and most of whom have never heard Jewish voices like Philip Weiss.

          These same highly visible leaders have used high-handed and brutal methods to try to intimidate and silence the political opposition (including many highly influential Americans and Europeans right up to presidents and heads of state) in the fanatical pursuit of policies that are quite likely going to be catastrophic for the United States and Europe.

          I think it is important to have a discussion about what are some plausible or probable future scenarios concerning the role of Israel in American, European and global politics.

          *I* don’t think that “the Jews” or most Jews are responsible for the policies of the Israeli government or the Israel lobby. I never use the inflammatory term “the Jews” and don’t think of Jews in terms of a monolithic collective. But I am willing to bet that most Americans and Europeans conflate Israel and “the Jews” in their minds — after all, they have been heavily propagandized to do so by the leaders of the Jewish establishment. If Israeli policies lead to a great deal of misery for Americans and Europeans, it’s not difficult to imagine how events could play out.

          Am I being overly alarmist? Perhaps. But I don’t think so. There is a well-established historical pattern here that one shouldn’t ignore.

        • seanmcbride says:

          Chaos,

          If I understand your and Annie’s respective arguments correctly, I tend to agree with you. Leaders of the Jewish establishment have created the conditions in the United States in which it is impossible for American politicians to challenge, criticize or oppose the Israeli government and the Israel lobby without committing career suicide.

          Why does Annie think it is that so few members of the Congress dare to even challenge Benjamin Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman over illegal Israeli settlements in the occupied territories? Why have almost no Democrats come to the defense of a sitting American president, Barack Obama, in his confrontations with the Israeli government?

          Which special interest group in American politics bears the most responsibility for creating this climate of intimidation? Most Americans pay little attention to Israel at all — they have more important concerns. They have little idea about what is really going on on this front.

        • American says:

          “no that is not true, there are a lot of non-Jews who won’t speak out for those reasons, not ‘can’t’.”

          I don’t know annie, I think Chaos has a point in that we’ve seen a lot of good people damaged professionally by the zionist character assassinations.
          Probably though it doesn’t have much effect if you’re not a public figure and not working for some zionista individual or company.
          In my case , and I imagine a lot of others, not dependent on jobs, those of an age already established in life and their societies, have nothing at risk, a zio attacking me as a anti semite would have zero effect on my life.
          Some guy though who is after a position with certain firms on WS or trying to get a book published or someone like the fashion guy that got ruined is taking a chance being honest about his politics on Israel…..cause the zios sniff blood like vampires when it comes to promoting the anti semite meme.
          Still…I think we’ve had a huge shift…more and more people are fed up with the zio’s unwarranted crapola and censorship demands and not taking it any more.

        • seanmcbride says:

          lobewyper,

          I think the relentless pattern of ever-escalating verbal attacks by pro-Israel activists on Americans and Europeans is having much more corrosive and destructive effects than you do. For the kind of thing I am talking about see, for instance, Pamela Geller’s attacks on Barack Obama on Atlas Shrugs — just a small example, the tip of the iceberg. One might also review many of the angry and abusive comments from overexcited pro-Israel activists on Stephen Walt’s and Glenn Greenwald’s blogs.

          The social dynamics here are fascinating, and the list of influential people who have been the targets of these attacks is quite large indeed. They are not likely ever to forget these bad experiences or to forgive them.

          Almost invariably the attackers claim to be speaking for “the Jews” — Zionism is producing a public relations disaster of unimaginable magnitude.

          My other point: a considerable number of Zionists seem to be almost erotically excited about the prospect of an apocalyptic explosion between Israel (“the Jews”) and “the nations” (everyone else). I think rational people within the Zionist world have entirely lost control of these crazies. Expect the worst.

        • annie says:

          The contemporary Jewish establishment is powerfully and overwhelmingly dominated by militant Zionists who loudly and conspicuously claim to speak for “the Jews” as a whole.

          obviously they put great emphasis on eluding to the idea they represent all jews. great emphasis, and therefore if you do not agree with them you are rejecting all jews. this is by design, it is not random but it is a lie. they do not represent all jews. it is so extreme their minions are out in full force de jewing people right here on this site for their un or anti zionist opinions. this is by design. so when you ask a question like the one below, you reinforce that idea, an idea that is false:

          What could be a more dangerous game than for any small ethnic group in a complex multicultural society to try to bully and intimidate all ethnic outsiders and the society as a whole into absolute submission through threats and fear?

          a small ethnic group is not doing anything to us. zionism is a political construct and many many zionists in our culture are powerful, very. and rich too, and try to dominate the country thru media and the government. this seems completely obvious. but you know what? the amount of people who really control this country probably don’t amount to very many. that’s just a fact. at the most probably 200 people and that’s probably an exaggeration.

          what’s going on here is brainwashing thru our media and messaging and framing permeating our minds conditioning us to be silent and we (all americans) have to grab our power and call them out on it.

          They have drilled this belief deeply into the minds of most Americans and Europeans, who don’t have have the time and energy to sift through the subtleties of Zionist and Jewish politics

          well wake up world because while people are hanging around not havin the time and energy to sift through the subtleties of Zionist and Jewish politics everybodies foreign policy is going to hell in a handbasket for a tiny criminal state. now we can either pass this problem onto our children or we can halt it, pull the reigns in and demand a change. it can be done. but it’s not going to be done by a couple million people. there is a potential here, in america, for literally a couple hundred million allies. and if we speak in one voice we will have the power to change things. i honestly believe this.

          the idea we should not be targeting the minds of the vast majority of americans regardless of their ethnicity and educating them what their tax dollars are doing, what they are complicit in, what they lay out a red carpet for in their name..is crazy. but that won’t happen by reinforcing the idea or the meme this is being done to us by a small ethnic group. it includs a bunch of groveling non jewish politicians and fanatical extremists firebreathing christians too.

          But I am willing to bet that most Americans and Europeans conflate Israel and “the Jews” in their minds — after all, they have been heavily propagandized to do so by the leaders of the Jewish establishment.

          then we have to attack that thought. we are not going to be able to free peoples minds enough to speak out if they continue to believe that way and you yourself said *I* don’t think that “the Jews” or most Jews are responsible for the policies of the Israeli government or the Israel lobby. so we have to drive that message home, free people from the kind of indoctrination we are all being force fed (read first italic at the opening of this comment) and get them to speak out. because we cannot be led into committing genocide or ethnic cleansing because of a well-established historical pattern of the suffering of jews. society is being brainwashed and we all have to stop it. plus, we have to have faith in ourselves. i refuse to believe our american society will turn against the entire jewish community. i just do not see it happening. too many people know jews and like them. i know i do. you cannot let fear stop you from doing what’s right.

        • Sand says:

          “…“the Jews”

          Isn’t that why more and more people are using the word Zionist Jews noting not all Jews are Zionist? As well as not all Zionists are Jews. So the topic of “Zionism” needs to be discussed not “the Jews”?

          As well as going back to the debate that “Zionism is racist”.

        • lobewyper says:

          Hi Sean,

          The Israeli Zionists are not going to do anything to seriously threaten their US supporters. They will not attack Iran without US participation, which I believe is most unlikely. They are bluffing, and part of their act is the “mad dog” routine (Moshe Dayan).

          I cannot really comment on the verbal attacks (which you point out are entirely self-defeating) except to say that they are probably acts of sheer desperation. Things are rapidly coming apart. (Good!)

        • American says:

          There is a way to avoid a resurgence of Anti All Jews because of any events that might take place. And I put it that way because the zios thru the msm have positioned all their activities as Jewish, so that’s how a good portion of the public sees it.

          But anyway….and I know everyone is tired of me saying this.
          BUT, the theme for change of everything in America, including Israel, should be rooting “Corruption” out of our government.
          Corrupting money and influence in gov and politics.
          That would get the Israeli zionist, as well as guilty corrupters in other areas, without making the Israel corruption a war of Jews vr Americans or others.
          Altought many Jews might still want to exclude Israel, if safegaurds against this type of corruption were ever really put in place would be hard for them overcome.

          I guess I will be waiting a long time for Americans to catch on to this is what they all have in common , that damages them all regardless of what political ideology they have.

          Maybe OWS is heading toward this core problem. I hope so.

        • no it is NOT the fault of “all of us” annie, it is the fault of Jews who intimidate and silence “all of us” when we speak out.

          and we dams sure demand that “moderate Muslims” speak out against other Muslims, we demand that Muslims “cooperate” with FBI to turn in uppity Muslims. C Span had 8:30-9:15: Steven Emerson, Investigative Project on Terrorism, Executive Director on last Friday to:
          examine the growth of Islamic radicalism in the U.S. and the prospect of “lone wolf” attacks by U.S. citizens. The conversation comes in the wake of the arrest earlier this week of a Dominican-born American convert to Islam who is accused of planning to use a bomb to target U.S. post offices and military personnel returning from active duty in Afghanistan.

          Hard to say who was more disgusting, Greta Brawner or Emerson.

          When C Span moderators have CAMERA breathing down your neck and threatening your livelihood, it’s too easy for a young journalist on the make to slip over to the dark side. CAMERA routinely targets C Span moderators for failing to be sufficiently pro-Israel and pro-Jew.

          If that’s the way Jewish people want to play the game, then they are going to have to bear the burden of fixing it. I didn’t start this s*&t, I don’t contribute to Jewish Federation, Jews did and do.

        • If I were Dickerson, I would post a link to “Ship of Fools.”

        • American says:

          “Almost invariably the attackers claim to be speaking for “the Jews”

          Yea they do.
          It’s funny that on MW eee has blown it by telling non zionist Jews they aren’t really Jews. …rotflmao….

        • annie says:

          teta no it is NOT the fault of “all of us” annie, it is the fault of Jews who intimidate and silence “all of us” when we speak out.

          you can drag a horse to the water but you can’t make him drink. no one has the power to intimidate and silence “all of us”. we need to start growing some serious cajones because we are accomplices to ethnic cleansing. it’s no sense being in denial about it. the less people there are the more difficult it is to stand up and make your voice heard but we’ve got the wind on our backs right now. it behooves us to let our voices be heard even if it means just writing a letter to the editor or expressing yourself online or discussing it with family members or bringing it up when you’re at the bar with your friends or going to a demo or whatever.. right now there’s a heavily funded campaign to create ‘red lines’ in acceptable speech about israel. you can read about it in reut. they want to set the parameters of acceptable speech and it’s our job to tell them they cannot do that. they can try, but it’s not up to them to declare comparisons to south africa as anti semitic. what i say and think is not a negotiation. it’s my mind and my mouth. i am an adult, if i feel intimidated and silenced i can go behind a closed door and shut up, or not. we simply cannot let acceptable speech in the US be determined by corporate zionist thugs. and if we do then we better be prepared to take some responsibility for it.

        • Duscany says:

          “American, whether the US would back an Israeli strike is the question.”

          If Israel attacks Iran the US won’t get a chance to decide whether to back Israel or not. Iran will assume that the US was complicit in any Israeli attack. In response, the Iranians will attack all US forces in the area. The US then will have no choice but to join Israel in attacking Iran.

        • lobewyper says:

          Cool! I thought only dragons could actually breathe fire, but Annie, you have shown here that humans can do it, too! Seriously, Chaos and others well describe my own situation. My kids think my interest in I-P is at least slightly pathological, not to mention a danger to my career. (Let me add that losing one’s job is not the only possible type of retaliation.)

          This whole situation cries out for historical illumination. The one we’re discussing simply can’t be unique in human history. Let’s find out how others have coped with a similar problem where the military power and money were hugely asymmetical.

          So far as idealism is concerned, it’s got to be the ultimate driver. But each of us must personally calculate the level of perceived risk we are willing to take. Just because we may not be quite ready to join you in the streets, Annie, does not mean we are not supporters of the cause. I, for example, have shared my beliefs on the subject with several close friends–who until that time, had given very little thought to the matter. I have helped them sift through the MSM hasbara and I believe they are now far more on “our side.” They in turn will talk to others, etc.

          My point is that much can be done (letters to government reps, to cable companies demanding AJE, etc.) short of putting oneself and/or family in the line of fire. We should probably try to be a little more tolerant of each other so that we can best foster the “synergy” that will sustain us through the difficult fight to come…

          PS: Mondoweiss could use a spell-checker!

        • annie says:

          i usually don’t breathe fire unless i get pissed off.

          each of us must personally calculate the level of perceived risk we are willing to take. Just because we may not be quite ready to join you in the streets, Annie, does not mean we are not supporters of the cause.

          yes absolutely lobewyper.

          My point is that much can be done (letters to government reps, to cable companies demanding AJE, etc.) short of putting oneself and/or family in the line of fire.

          yeah, it is a matter of pushing against whatever wall is there for you or the person you are talking too. for some people the wall could be family members that would completely disengage with them and if that is the case then a voice that talks to other people instead.

          when people ask me why i do this (and they do) i tell them for me it is about international law and the kind of world we want our children to live in. then i say i have faith this cannot go on forever and so it might as well be resolved sooner than later, that i just feel the time is right..and it is.

          most people don’t want this conflict to continue, so even people who don’t want to piss other people off will agree they want it over. and then just mention..well, do you notice it has been in the news more lately and there’s a lot of attention on it? and they say yes, and i say we should take advantage of that and empower movement, not shut it down.

          so, i don’t start talking about the worst abuses when people are sensitive. i find a way to talk about it that will bring agreement. get people talking. just keep pushing and most of all i don’t hide what i do. i tell them i work finding a solution to this problem because i believe we can’t let others fear prevent us from doing what is right and i have faith there is a way to move forward, we are stuck and for their to be movement we have to shake things up and not hold back the winds of time, but be part of it and how would they feel if they had to live with no citizenship or rights for generations. not very american, etc etc. more people are becoming more receptive.

        • lobewyper says:

          Annie,

          I am very glad we are on the same side, and I know you will continue to contribute to the cause of justice in a mighty way! Appreciate your response.

        • annie says:

          i’m glad we’re on the same side too lobewyper. another thing i was thinking..out in the real world i don’t encounter the arguments and debates we have here on line very often and when i do i don’t always engage because it is (for the most part) a waste of my time debating the zionist hardliners. the vast majority of regular people are not engaged in this issue because they have been conditioned to leave it alone. but this is the field we need to talk to, the regular people who are not really informed or involved. because most people, when they understand what is happening, realize it is wrong.

          so, i often dumb it way down i try to create an ease in which to discuss it to make it accessible. generally the framing groundwork has already been laid and that ground work is that palestinians are violent or something. so i just talk about how i’ve been there and how much i liked everyone and then i tell them a true story about how i never realized til i went there how 1/2 the people were palestinian, that i thought they were ….a minority. but just how mindblowing it is to have millions of people with no say in their government (and that’s why we reference it as apartheid, because it is)….and people actually relate. it’s just giving voice to a people who the mainstream has blocked out. people start asking questions and then i gauge wherever they are and nudge them by finding key points we agree on and then nudge more. it’s not that hard or daring. we need to get the middle engaged.

          i’m throwing a dinner party and have to off the computer or i’ll be in trouble!

          ciao. thank you.

        • lobewyper says:

          Annie wrote,

          “[T]he vast majority of regular people are not engaged in this issue because they have been conditioned to leave it alone. but this is the field we need to talk to, the regular people who are not really informed or involved. because most people, when they understand what is happening, realize it is wrong.”

          Agree–my experience exactly. And we are going to need their help. So, let’s do this!

          Great suggestions on how to approach folks about this topic–thanks!

      • American says:

        ““What a nuclear Iran really threatens, as several top Israeli officials have admitted, is Israeli hegemony in the region”

        That’s it entirely. The get nuked by Iran is just hysterics for dummies.

        • unfortunately American, real Iranian people, innocent women, children, grandmas and grandpas are enduring real suffering every day because of this phantasm-induced hysteria.

          why should Jews be let off the hook if they are causing innocent people to suffer? point the finger, make it stick; change behavior or you lose your place of respect in US society.

        • American says:

          “point the finger, make it stick; change behavior or you lose your place of respect in US society.”

          I’m with that. For everybody.

    • with this statement I could not disagree more, lobewyper:

      “Iran’s leaders may lack “emotional intelligence” judging by the depreciating remarks they have uttered about Israel,”

      As Ian Lustick, Eyal Weizman, and Avigail Abarbanel have pointed out/diagnosed, Israeli culture is “insane,” “psychotic,” “suffering from PTSD that is deliberately induced.”

      Abarbanel quoted Ben Zion Netanyahu, secretary to Jabotinsky and father & mentor/svengali to Bibi (who is also suffering some serious survival guilt that his brother died and he must live up to the hero image of his brother in his father’s eyes. That is to say, Bibi is insane.) as having said that “the holocaust is not over; it is continuing right now.” Abarbanel said, “that is not a lunatic fringe belief in Israel, it is the majority belief.”

      How SHOULD Iran deal with an irrational, pathologically lying, insane actor with nukes and the belief that laws do not apply to Israel?

      Iran has kept its cool despite provocation upon provocation. Consider that US turns American life upside down when a freak — who may have been a CIA asset — puts chemicals in his gutchies in a bid to –what, test the possibility of singeing his pubic hair at 7,000 feet?– but Iran’s leaders managed to restrain their society after 17 engineers, and two nuclear scientists were killed — one of them in the presence of his six-year old daughter. Iran has kept its society from boiling over in the face of at least 16 years of US-Israel-AIPAC provocations and deliberate attempts to CAUSE ordinary Iranians to riot. Seems to me that is “emotional intelligence” of the highest order.

      “judging by the depreciating remarks they have uttered about Israel.”

      What remarks that Iranians have “uttered about Israel” have been untrue?
      Now, apply the same test to Americans– pundits, congressmen, Secy of State, etc.
      Then tell me who lacks “emotional intelligence.” Or rationality. Or a moral compass.

      • lobewyper says:

        Teta mother me,

        I accept your criticism of my words here. What I should have said is that the Iran leadership has foolishly uttered words to the effect that Israel is a cancer and should be eliminated, and that the world would be a better place without it. Such talk helps Israeli militants make the case for a pre-emptive strike upon a country it hates and fears. It fuels also the David (Israel) vs. Goliath (Iran) mentality that the Israelis have so diligently and carefully nurtured–particularly among its US supporters. It is for these reasons that I questioned the Emotional IQ of the Iranisan leadership–for not having realized that their provocative remarks would ultimately be used very effectively against them by Israel and its backers.

        (I did not mean to imply that Iranian criticism of Israel in many respects is not justified.)

        • American says:

          I don’t know Lobe…maybe the Persians are playing a taunting game with Israel.

          Look where they’ve put Israel in world opinion. With the exception of media dumbed down America, more people in the world think Israel is crazy and threat to peace than they do Iran. (According to the World Public Opinion Poll, the only respectable poll in the world.)

          Israel tried to position Iran as the crazies and now most people are talking about crazy Israel attacking Iran. Again leaving out the US press, it’s an alert a day in the world press on some gov official rushing off to tell the crazy Israelis not to do anything crazy.

        • lobewyper says:

          “Again leaving out the US press, it’s an alert a day in the world press on some gov official rushing off to tell the crazy Israelis not to do anything crazy.”

          Funny!

      • MRW says:

        Teta mother me,

        I love your moral outrage.

  5. Many Americans have no idea what the war is like.
    Many Polish people , even generations (like mine) ,who did not experienced it directly, have the horrible pictures of a war implemented in our minds.
    We know the war from the direct stories, that we’ve heard from our parents, grandparents, neighbours, acquaintances, etc. My friend’s parents were ,as a youngsters , sent to Germany to work on a farm of a cruel German bauer.
    They worked 24/7 , ( no days off), for 5 years. They were only 17/18 yers old when they got there. In order to surive ,they ate food that was given to pigs, they slept in the attic in the winter ,with no heat on. No medications ,when they were sick. They were just slaves, who could be easily killed if they disobeyed.
    My other friend’s mom , a beautiful, young girl , with blue eyes and long, blond hair was taken to a German camp ,where they did, so called, “medical experiments”. Horrible stories ,even to mention.
    My grandmother, ( she just gave a birth to her 7th child) was taken by Nazi soldiers to work as a slave in Germany. Luckily, one German officer took a pity on her
    ( she was crying for her children), and let her go . She walked, alone, for a week to get to her family home.
    My grandfather, ( on my mom’s side) experienced /survived horrific, savage atrocites commited by Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) on Polish people in Volhynia. What was done to them there, is beyond any words. Beyond.
    link to en.wikipedia.org
    War unleashes Powers directly from hell. Everything ,what normally is under some control, is allowed there. The darkest, the most primitive, barbaric, savage instincts of the human soul come to light and rule. Those who push for an agressive war are satans in disguise.
    They don’t value, they don’t protect human life ,or any country, at all.
    They only value their own, shady, murky business.
    They all should be sent on the first plane , right in the middle of the first battle ,
    if it really comes to the war.

    • MRW says:

      dumvitaestspesest,

      No truer words.

    • split says:

      I don’t have to look that far. My grandfather and aunt were taken at night from their homes in Lvow and Brest shortly after Soviet invasion and perished. Her sister, also arrested survived because a gulag’s officer have fall in love and married her. My other aunt arrested by Nazis ended up in Bauer’s stall eating with pigs survived a winter by sleeping with them. Her sister younger sister that was arrested the same day and send to Reich to another bauer sat at the table and eat with them.

      My dad got arrested by NKWD in Poznan on the way home from DP’s camp in France for Allie’s vets in 1949, tortured in jail managed to escape was hiding while working in Pomerania’s PGR’s (collective farms) My first Easter with dad being present was when I was 5, after Stalin’s death and for good at home with family in ’56, after amnesty.

      Just like you I knew families that suffered more than my because of war and not only the Polish ones. I remember a German woman that lost 3 sons and husband on Russian front that kept Hitler’s picture on the wall and spat on it every time she was passing by.

      I remember waking up one morning and seeing my village of 70 German families, most of them without fathers just like my completely empty, a ghost town and no one to talk to. All of them including my German nanny Mala Filax disappeared from my life forever swallowed by dirty green tarped trucks.

      You’re right a people of a young but powerful nation like the one in US that never witnessed the horrors of war and destruction on their soil are susceptible to warmongering bastards and the ones like those in Europe that have experienced are much more resilient.

      The only way to stop the quest for nukes in the Middle East and avoid the apocalypse is to disarm Israel and declare a nuke free zone. Sorry but this so called ‘samson option’ leaves no option for the rest of us ,…

      If it wasn’t for the freedom of speech that I cherish so much I would be the first in line to say, round them up (including the V-column on Capital Hill) lock them up in Guantanamo cages and throw the keys away,…

      • Wow, you know exactly what I’m talking about.
        Many families from the Occupied Europe ,(especially from the Eastern Europe) have sad stories like that.
        A war does not solve anything. It only brings more destruction, more suffering, more tears, more orphans, more widows, more violence, more mass graves.
        And right now, considering the current technology ,and the weapons of massive, global destruction, a war could literally mean the end of our planet, the end of our globe.

        Did you see the movie ” The Road” based on the book of the same title.??
        Worth seeing, although it is very , very depressing.
        It is one of the movies, that it stays in your mind forever. link to youtube.com

        • I just came across a letters between my aunt and my Dad in Aug 1942. She tells Dad “not to worry about Pa” [their father; he was old & sick and my Dad, 19 yrs old, was left to take care of him].
          Then Dad got a letter telling him to report to the Army induction center.
          My aunt said she would “quit her job” in New York and move to Chicago to take care of Pa. She wrote the date when she would arrive, including the train station, etc.
          But she did not come.
          Dad didn’t want to be in the Army, so instead of being drafted into Army, he enlisted in the Navy. His father (Pa) misunderstood this; he thought Dad wanted to get away from him, and for that reason was joining the Navy.

          That’s as far as the letters went.

          But the situation didn’t end there.

          Dad was wounded in Sept 1943. He spent 4 months on various Red Cross ships, base hospitals, etc., until he arrived in the States in December. Which is when he found out that his Dad had died in the same week in September that Dad was hurt.

          When you’re 21 years old and now orphaned, how do you deal with that? Do you spend the rest of your life remembering the holocaust?
          My Dad didn’t.
          He never made a lot of money but he made it his life’s mission to respect every life he encountered. When he died the entire town came to his funeral. He gave love and he found his way to heaven in love.

          You can spend your life reminding yourself of the horrible things you have suffered, and insist that someone owes something to you in repayment; you can hold that most odious of all attitudes possible, that Norman Finkelstein speaks of: “Never forget, Never forgive.”

          Or you can make the determination to live a life of dignity and character, reaching out to others.

          I’m not one-tenth the person my Dad was, so I think things he would never permit to pollute his mind; namely, that I’m fed up to here with hearing about all the suffering Jews and only Jews have endured, and of the high moral virtue Jews and only Jews possess. It’s bullshit. Cut it out. Cut it the fuck out. Walk the walk.

        • split says:

          ‘Wow, you know exactly what I’m talking about’

          Yes, I think so but despite my mom moving every few months trying to follow my dad’s trail to avoid an arrest and despite losing my friends (mostly German kids at that time) and making new ones, starting my day with a couple slices of bread with a lard in between in one pocket and a pinch of salt and an onion in the other one with a bow on my back and a slingshot around my neck with an adult skis tied to my shoes at winter time, checking snares for hares or baby hogs or during the summer hunting for ducks with a slingshot or fishing with a home made hooks tied to hazel sticks or spending a time on the lake or river shore next to our shacks and a campfires doing nothing and not always lucky to grill something on it but still I wouldn’t swap my childhood for the one my grand kids have now, confined to their rooms with plasma TV and lap-tops screens on and perverts on the streets.

        • lobewyper says:

          Teta mother me,

          What a wonderful way to be able to remember your father–you are most fortunate!

          “He never made a lot of money but he made it his life’s mission to respect every life he encountered. When he died the entire town came to his funeral. He gave love and he found his way to heaven in love.”

        • I can totaly relate to it.
          My grandparents, ( on my mom’s side) were ,transfered from Ukraine right after the war, to the south-west of Poland. They wound up in a tiny village located near Wroclaw (Breslau), where they lived in a post-German house.
          I was born and spent my young years there ,before my parents moved up North.
          Aaand thooose were the days, I wouldn’t trade for anything else.
          I owned EVERYTHING . All the forests, streams, meadows, river, cementaries, trees, roof-tops etc. Me and the local kids were free to run around there ,like little dogs let out of a leash, and explore, all day long.
          I was a Tree Fairy. I loved climbing trees, used to spend hours on them, had favourite ones, and never fall off them. Trees were my friends, as well as roofs. Again, climbing , walking and spending time on them was a challenge and a pleasure, that I quite can’t figure out right now.
          I was a litte tomboy, not afraid of anything. Dressed in a very simple , rather dirty clothes , oftentimes with holes ( all the climbing, jumping, rolling , etc was taking toll on them) I run around with an energy and curiosity of a very inquisitive , and not afraid of anything child. Kind of a hippy child or a native Indian child ,free to go whenever she wishes, as long she shows up at the meal times, and definately by the evening time.
          I remember especially those beautiful,vast ,Polish meadows, covered in the late spring, with a multitude of multi-color wild flowers and tall , green grass. Us/girls used to spend hours in them making bouquets ,and crowns on our heads made of grass and those colorful flowers. We were little princesess that were not looking for a prince, but were just having a good time jumping thorugh wild streams with plenty of rocks to climb on.
          I rememeber the old attic in our house. Full of old, post- German furniture, mirrows, books, newpapers, clothes etc ,and spider webs with an occasional, unfriendly spider sitting in them. On a rainy days I loved going there and just go through everything there for the 100th time.
          It was an excellent place to play hide and seek. I have so many great memmories from my simple, not fancy at all, ( I almost had no toys, but I had the whole wide world around me to play with) ,yet very enjoyable, free childhood, that I could almost write a book about it.
          We had freedom to explore the nature, freedom to discover what the real world is about, freedom to make mistakes and learn from them, freedom to make it or break it. We had that kind of freedom that now, current generations have no idea what we are talking about.
          Sometimes I do not even believe that it was for real. It seems like ages ago.
          And I’m not even thaaaat old:).

        • split says:

          Your talkback looks like a page teared out from my diary except that I wasn’t afraid of spiders and as a matter of fact I was peeping on them trying to figure it out how do they start their web

          In one of those attics you mentioned I have found a suitcase with billions of deutsche marks, in another one a collection of late IXX and early XX century post stamps (I wish I had them now) or a box full of postcards from pre-war Dresden that used to look like Warsaw after the war ,…

          Do you think that anyone that knew pre-war Dresden, Hamburg, London or Warsaw are itching for war ?

          Why are those warmongers planted in Washington DC, not in London, Berlin or Moscow ? Because we’re naive a todler nation that never experienced war on our soil and suckers fed by Hagee’s or Robertson’s Judeo-Christian crap,…

        • split says:

          ‘before my parents moved up North’,…

          That is ?

          The first town I remember was Myślibórz, then Drawsko , Bialy Bór , Bytów as a kid and Slupsk after an amnesty declared in Moscow in ’56 ,…

        • split says:

          BTW, the ‘Judeo-Christian’ term is not mentioned in pre 1969 Encyclopedia Britannica or Merriam-Webster dictionary ,…

        • That is …Gdansk. A beautiful city (tri-city) with an old, 1000 years or so history, full of historic buildings, cafes, restaurants, colleges,parks, and of course, interesting people:). Gdansk , where Solidarity movement initiated and infamous lech Walesa comes from.
          I miss it so much.
          link to youtube.com

        • split says:

          Small world – Graduated ASP (graphics at Chlebnicka) Favored places, Bar Mleczny at Szeroka and bi gender sauna few meters west of Sopot molo :) ,…

        • split says:

          Thanks for the videos – What’s missing on the second one it’s the pipe organ during the concert and the figurines moving ,…

        • Oh Bary mleczne:) . Students’ last rescue to get a cheap, hearty meal.
          Ugly surrounding ,yet delicious food.
          It was not so bad ,but this scene from a well known comedy “Mis”, still makes me laugh. People living in tough communstic times did had a good sense of humor. They had to in order to deal with a very rough reality.
          Just to protect their own sanity.
          link to youtube.com
          Sopot changed soo much that you probably would not recoginse it. I did not.

        • split says:

          Was there 4 weeks in 2007. 2 days in tri-city, traveled a bit and two weeks in my Slupsk. Missed those centuries old walls and the spirit of the people ,…
          BTW, the sauna is gone but the bar is still there and couldn’t resist :) ,…

          link to youtube.com

          link to youtube.com

          link to youtube.com

        • here are the beautiful Organs from Gdansk-Oliva and the amazing Cathedra.

        • split says:

          All those wooden parts are carved out of black oak that was under the water for many decades , so are the famous Gdansk Furniture – You can order a copies made out of stained oak for a small fortune ,…

          link to meblegdanskie.pl

      • MRW says:

        Split,

        I hope everyone reads your post here, because this is what Americans are facing if they let these pro-Israelis have their way with our country.

        • split says:

          We’re fiancially broke and kaput in regard of our prestige in the 1.3 billion Muslim world, thanks to those bastards influence on Capital Hill ,…

      • American says:

        thanks split for sharing what must be extremely painful in an effort to point out many American ignorance of the hell of war.

        • split says:

          ‘thanks split for sharing what must be extremely painful’ ,…

          It wasn’t as painful as you think. I was a kid then. I wish I have had my dad around 24/7/365 but like I said I do remember kids in much worst situation than I was, a kids that lost their limbs due to unexploded shells or mines or without fathers taken away by NKWD or SB and disappeared forever from their lives.

        • Taxi says:

          Thanks split, teta, dumvita.

          Sorrowful yet beautiful and oh so achingly pure.

          Sepia tears.

        • john h says:

          Yeah Taxi, that goes for me too, such compelling true stories.

          Just loved dumvita’s gorgeous memories of her “young years”; what an amazing treasure.

    • seafoid says:

      Dum

      I’m looking for a book about the post war depopulation of Eastern Poland and the forced move to the German lands in the West. Can you recommend anything in English ?

    • patm says:

      “How SHOULD Iran deal with an irrational, pathologically lying, insane actor with nukes and the belief that laws do not apply to Israel?

      Excellent question, teta. Thanks for this post.

  6. American says:

    “And the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card for anything having to do with Israel is the Holocaust.”

    Tis true. And has to be said.
    It’s used like bat to beat the law, justice, fairness on the head to do and demand anything they want.
    In that recent ADL survey it said that something like 59% of people were tired of hearing about the holocaust and this is why….because it’s misused by the zios.
    For the public it’s like some husband who cheated on his wife and then she beats him on the head about it forever until he can’t take it any longer and leaves her.
    Like I said about the Jewish community ‘nightmares’, they have to end, should have ended a long time ago, don’t have anything to do with reality today and are causing too much damage to others.
    I don’t think the zio and the ‘industry’ people of the holocaust can be changed, they have to be exposed and defeated, but the Jewish community needs to be coaxed or dragged, even kicking and screaming, out of the nightmare syndrome so there is no support for this excuse.

    • annie says:

      don’t have anything to do with reality today and are causing too much damage to others.
      I don’t think the zio and the ‘industry’ people of the holocaust can be changed

      it’s simply the best arsenal they’ve got against the crimes committed by israel as well as a support system for the fear mongering they are imposing thru mass media. it is treated as valuable currency.

  7. split says:

    To add insult to injury they’re using our money, a tax deductible donations (that must be replaced by additional taxes imposed on us) to spew this crap. They’re the today’s drang nach Osten warmongering bastards that started WW II.

  8. gazacalling says:

    I’m in love with Annie.

  9. rensanceman says:

    A vast majority of the posters are viscerally outraged by the heinous treatment of the Palestinians then and now. I share this outrage and would suggest that this anger not be confined just to this site but to expand it in ways to produce a change. I regularly write-call-demonstrate to express my anger and to offer my own ideas for ways to effect a change from our government’s blind allegiance to the Israel lobby.

    The U.S. built a huge amount of positive capital from our intervention in WW1 and 2 acting not as conquerors but as a country of highly idealistic, honest and hard-working people. The ZIonist have hijacked our foreign policy for their benefit and are using us as their savior and protector. We must get the message to out to create the groundswell of righteous anger (OWS) to change this.

    • RoHa says:

      “acting not as conquerors but as a country of highly idealistic, honest and hard-working people.”

      Somewhat rosy view. You left out “annoyingly boastful”, for starters. But let that pass.

      “The U.S. built a huge amount of positive capital from our intervention in WW1 and 2 ”

      But began losing it in the 1950s when it became clear even to Australian schoolboys (I was one at the time) that the US would support any dictator, however nasty, who claimed to be anti-Communist. And Senator McCarthy was hardly a good advertisement for American “freedom”.

      In 1946 the Zippo lighter was a symbol of the American troops who fought in Europe and the Pacific and built up that positive capital.

      By 1968 we just thought of it as an implement for setting fire to Vietnamese houses.

      • Chaos4700 says:

        Somewhat rosy but not altogether incorrect. We could have carved Europe like a turkey after WW2, and made Japan a permanent holding of an American empire.

        Instead the United States chose to do the right thing. I’d like to think some day eventually we’ll regain that level of honor and moral conviction.

  10. Avi_G. says:

    Mincing no words, he comes right out swinging characterizing Israel’s influence on the US as maintaining a stranglehold over our Mideast policy and claiming the neocons are ignorant, Islamophobic, discredited ideologues (we knew that).

    It follows then that Madeleine Albright is a neocon, as well.

  11. jayn0t says:

    Brilliant article. But it does make the mistakes of claiming that Zionist influence pushes US politics to the ‘right’, whereas Zionism is neither left nor right, but uses whichever approach serves it, that some defense of apartheid against Iran could be justified in principle, and implying that Israel could remain a Jewish state but be nicer about it.

  12. lobewyper says:

    MRW said:

    “You’re right about the global antisemitism. It will be chilling in its generational reach, and it will last for the rest of this century too for the simple reason that it will spawn books and monographs that will attempt to ask whether Hitler was right. The European laws against mentioning the holocaust will be reversed, and we will be flooded with translations of documents long hidden.”

    Agree that heightened anti-Semitism could last a long time. Doubt the scenario you outline re: Hitler, however–I would hope people would have more sense than that.
    The info you provide about Russia is most interesting (and encouraging).

  13. ritzl says:

    Wesley Clark just echoed this and adds some specific history (via Greenwald): link to salon.com

    Clark calls it an undisclosed “policy coup” by neocons/members of PNAC. He learned in 2001, that the policy was to be the invasion of seven muslim countries (all antagonistic to Israel, but he didn’t go there). Lebanon, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, and Iran.

  14. A possible version of the “nearest future events” in the Middle East.

    Using the recent , proven “Libyan model” of “abolishment of Tyranny”, similar model may be be used in Syria. Sunni majority in Syria will suport “humanitarian aid ” offered by the Wild West ,( also known as NATO).
    They hate Alawite (Shiites) Ruling Power , and will gladly get rid of them.
    Then , an “Iraqi model ” will be probably used, which means , dividing Sunni and Shiites to the point that only mutual hate will dominate among them, ( you know the old “divide and impera” tactic).
    Iran may step in and announce a support for its Shiites brothers, who are a minority in Syria.
    Assad (if not killed) may be given into the hands of Sunni judges , who will treat him with the same “love and understanding “as Saddam was treated n Iraq.
    This may provoke Iran to some kind of an action ,which will serve all MainStreamMedia to yap about “Iranian’s immediate THREAT to the World Wide Peace”, which “HAS TO BE PROTECTED” by the Allmighty USA, Israel and Wild West , ( not sure about Russia yet).
    This will open the Pandora’s box, and the deadly odor of WWIII will encircle the globe, or at least a good chunk of the world.

    • Keith says:

      DUMVITA- See my comment below (assuming it passes moderation) and read the two articles. Your comment is reasonable speculation based upon known criteria. The empire is going all out for a complete restructuring of the Middle East to achieve US/Israel strategic objectives. One new wrinkle is that conflict is no longer limited to conventional means, but may include both cyberwarfare and financial warfare. Full spectrum dominance in the fullest sense of the concept. We live in extremely dangerous times.

      • Thanks Keith. I ‘ll read it tomorrow. Enough of bad news for today.
        I can handle only as much:)
        I sent those links to a few , well known Polish , independent websites. Good info has to travel fast ,while it still can.
        We do live in extremly dangerous times. I don’t want sound too prophetic, but it looks (to me) like those are the “Apocaliptic” times.
        I look at what is going on from many “different angles”, and all the pieces of the puzzle, that I notice, are coming slowly together.
        The final picture is frightening. I want to be mistaken. Badly.
        I still hope that I am , but from what I see ,everything falls precisely in a cathegory, that I “discovered “more than a year ago.
        I know, I use some kind of a cryptic, ambiguous language, but I guess, for right now, it is enough. Good night.

  15. lobewyper says:

    It’s been suggested that the Israelis are so crazed that they might go so far as to trigger WW III. Don’t believe it! Only if the USA can be brought into the fight with them. Have you noticed how hyper-vigilant the Zionists are to the slightest sign that American support might be weakening? This is not the behavior of a crazy, but of somebody pretending to be–while carefully monitoring the reactions of others to his behavior.

    • Keith says:

      LOBEWYPER- “Have you noticed how hyper-vigilant the Zionists are to the slightest sign that American support might be weakening?”

      Israeli Zionists? Yes. American Zionists? No. The following quote provides some insight.

      “If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely and we don’t try to piece together clever diplomacy, but just wage a total war… our children will sing great songs about us years from now.” (Michael Ledeen, following 9/11/01 attacks)

      What must be kept in mind is that the dominant elite are sociopaths. We are ruled by mad men. Humanity still exists, in spite of a long history of mass murder and genocide, because previously the species lacked the capacity to kill itself. That is no longer true.

      “To put it bluntly: in earlier times, it was easier to control one million people than to physically kill one million people; today, it is infinitely easier to kill one million people than to control one million people.” (Zbigniew Brzezinski, quoted by Andrew Gavin Marshall, Dandelion Salad 1/28/11)

      • lobewyper says:

        Keith said:

        “If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely and we don’t try to piece together clever diplomacy, but just wage a total war… our children will sing great songs about us years from now.” (Michael Ledeen, following 9/11/01 attacks)

        So much for respecting “cultural diversity.”

        Our leaders are similar to leaders everywhere. They are charged with protecting their countries’ “interests,” and if they can make a little money for themselves in the process, so much the better. We are talking straight Darwin here-intergroup competition.

        Yes, it is easily these days to kill a million people than to control them. But,
        consider the rise of telecommunications. It’s not anywhere near as easy now (vs. the past) to conceal treachery and mass murder. In addition, the worldwide economic crisis has led to a huge increase in political awareness (tho, not necessarily of international politics–at least–yet). Do not count out the discontent of the people in many countries–the Arab spring was only the tip of the iceberg. This discontent can be tapped by those of us interested in social justice–for everyone!

        Maybe it will take a series of catastrophes to bring the masses to their senses and accompanying demands for real democracy and social justice. (As you can see, I’m not quite willing to give up the ghost on this quite yet.) Keep speaking truth to power!

  16. Keith says:

    US/ISRAEL VS SYRIA/IRAN- Two awesome articles over at Dissident Voice are extremely informative on current US/NATO/Israel machinations in the Middle East.

    First, Pepe Escobar writes that “This is part and parcel of the “strategic opportunity” identified by the powerful Israel lobby in Washington; if we strike against the Damascus-Tehran link, we deal a mortal blow to Hezbollah in Lebanon. That, ideologues believe, can now be sold to world public opinion under the cover of the former Arab Spring — now “Arab Winter” after a metamorphosis, before “Arab Summer”, into the Arab counter-revolution).” The whole article is a must read I heartily recommend.
    link to dissidentvoice.org

    Second, Tom Burghardt writes about current covert operations against Iran, including cyber warfare. “As the U.S. and Israel ramp-up covert operations against Iran, the Pentagon “has laid out its most explicit cyberwarfare policy to date, stating that if directed by the president, it will launch ‘offensive cyber operations’ in response to hostile acts,” according to The Washington Post.” Another must read article.
    link to dissidentvoice.org

    • Rusty Pipes says:

      Thanks for the links. Important food for thought, along with the Greenwald piece linked by ritzl upthread.

    • Potsherd2 says:

      And the assassinations.

    • annie says:

      from escobar

      have already given the go-ahead for NATO to build a sprawling military base in Cyrenaica.

      NATO has no final say in such matters. This is decided by the boss — the Pentagon — interested in emboldening Africom in coordination with NATO.

      i knew it. i knew they wanted wheeler airforce base back for africom.

      • Keith says:

        ANNIE- “i knew it. i knew they wanted wheeler airforce base back for africom.”

        You got that right! What is happening seems to be going right by a lot of folks. The neocon Project For a New American Century is being aggressively implemented by the Obama administration. The neocons see this as a window of opportunity to lock in US corporate/financial dominance before a rival becomes strong enough to contest US militarism. In essence, the collapse of the Soviet Union has caused Uncle Sam to go crazy. Potential rivals are being eliminated or hogtied. Things are moving fast, folks having trouble keeping up. The US empire increasingly controlled by the financial elites, the planet being turned into one big “company town.” Full spectrum dominance, full spectrum warfare. Africa a major prize in a world of diminishing resources. Total war on the 99%.

        • annie says:

          keith, thanks for linking to both those articles. speaking of africom, there’s a really good article (in fact it placed second on project censored’s list in 07, the year it came out) is understanding africom. what many people do not know is none of the african nations want our headquarters in their counry, bush spent lots of energy lobbying them all to no avail. the headquarters have remained in germany all this time. so naturally the moment i heard we were going after libya i immediately thought of stationing africom there. it’s been a huge priority for our overall strategic geopolitical positioning…wrt china.

    • lobewyper says:

      Keith and others interested in the Syrian crisis, also check this out:

      link to crisisgroup.org

      Excerpt:

      “The Syrian crisis may or may not have entered its final
      phase, but it undoubtedly has entered its most dangerous
      one to date. The current stage is defined by an explosive
      mix of heightened strategic stakes tying into a regional
      and wider international competition on the one hand and
      emotionally charged attitudes, communal polarisation and
      political wishful thinking on the other. As dynamics in
      both Syria and the broader international arena turn squarely
      against the regime, reactions are ranging from hysterical
      defiance on the part of its supporters, optimism among
      protesters that a bloody stalemate finally might end and
      fears of sectarian retribution or even civil war shared by
      many, through to triumphalism among those who view
      the crisis as an historic opportunity to decisively tilt the
      regional balance of power.
      Yet, almost entirely missing is a sober assessment of the
      challenges provoked by these shifts and the very real risk
      that they could derail or even foreclose the possibility of a
      successful transition.”

  17. lobewyper says:

    Thanks, Keith,

    For the Escobar link. Looks like things might be a lot more complicated than I have imagined…great read!

  18. An article from Septmeber 2011. VERY IMPORTANT though.
    It shows clearly that what the EU leaders are planing is a creation of a Centralized, European Empire (totalitarian, but they don’t say it directly, they call it centralized, federalist etc). Listening to Barosso’s speech is literally like listening to one of speeches made by communistic leaders.
    I suspected it from the beginning. The EU was solely created in order to “peacefully ” bring western , strong Europe down to its knees. Once it is defeated, it will be SOOO easy to overpower it , they way they want it.
    Mission is almost accomplished. . Europe is broken, seriously wounded right know, the VULTURES are circling impatiently , waiting for the final collapse.
    The same thing IS planned for the US and Canada. But first THE WAR (with IRAN) has to be accomplished.
    “A HUGE EUROPEAN SUPERSTATE is the ONLY solution to the economic crisis engulfing the continent, the President of the European Commission declared today.
    Jose Manuel Barroso claimed the fate of the euro and European Union were intertwined and that THE ONLY answer to the growing threat of collapse WAS A MASSIVE FEDERAL EUROPE.
    As the crisis in Greece deepened Mr Barroso told the European Parliament: “We are confronted with the most serious challenge of a generation.
    “What we need now is a new, unifying impulse, a new FEDERALIST moment – let’s not be afraid to use the word.
    “The right way to stop the negative cycle and strengthen the euro is to DEEPEN INTEGRATION, mainly in the euro area. This is the way to go.”
    He even claimed the crisis was “a fight”.
    “This is a fight for the jobs and prosperity of families in all our member states.
    “This is a fight for what Europe represents in the world. This is a FIGHT for European INTEGRATION itself,” he added.
    His outrageous land grab comes as two French Banks were downgraded by Moody’s, one of the big three credit agencies, due to their exposure to the Greek debt.
    He said the big problem was that new rules governing the running of the euro area had been agreed but not fully implemented by the euro-zone countries.
    Barroso added: “In the cacophony of criticisms, counter-criticisms, magic bullets and miracle panaceas that are proposed on a daily basis, the truth has been drowned out – that solid, feasible and concrete proposals have been made. That they have been agreed upon. But they have taken too long and have not yet been fully delivered.
    Rest of article here.
    link to express.co.uk

  19. richb says:

    Connecting the dots…

    Here’s how Dean is encouraged: speaking fees. Here’s a list of the key speakers for the MEK:

    link to big.assets.huffingtonpost.com

    This in turn produces appearances as follows on MSNBC:

    In March, one of the largest MEK support groups, the Iranian American Community of Northern California (IACNC) hosted a lavish conference on Capitol Hill with eight professional speakers, including Sec. Ridge, Gov. Dean and Mukasey, as well as nine members of Congress.

    link to iacnorcal.com

    Here come’s the Israel connection. One month later, the group hired a prestigious D.C. law firm, Akin Gump, to lobby directly for delisting the MEK.

    link to thehill.com

    Who’s a key member of Akin Gump? Former Congressman Bill Paxon.

    link to akingump.com

    Why is this important?

    While in Congress, Mr. Paxon also served as chair of the House leadership, founded the House Republican Israel Caucus and was a member of the following committees: Energy and Commerce, Banking, Budget, Small Business and Veterans Affairs.

    In a policy paper in 2001 the firm noted the following concerning sanctions against Iran:

    Diplomatic considerations are unlikely to sway members of Congress, however. Many members will be reluctant to allow ILSA to expire without a serious debate. The position of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee and other interested groups, which generally advocate a hard-line approach to both Iran and Libya, will be important factors in determining how events unfold. If this produces an initiative to extend ILSA in some form, a difficult debate on U.S. sanctions policy toward these countries is likely to ensue.

    link to akingump.com

  20. lobewyper says:

    Salon: Israel pushes US warmongering via neocon dog-tail-waggers
    by annie on November 25, 2011 148

    Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and neonconservative William Kristol (Credit: Reuters/Gage Skidmore)

    Salon’s got a doozey up. Gary Kamiya gets his rant on in his provocatively titled article ‘The boys who cry “Holocaust”’. Mincing no words, he comes right out swinging characterizing Israel’s influence on the US as maintaining a stranglehold over our Mideast policy and claiming the neocons are ignorant, Islamophobic, discredited ideologues (we knew that). And it just builds from there. Check it out and by all means read the entire link for a comprehensive round up of past and present neocon war-mongering 101. From Bolton to Kristol to Goldberg including Bibi himself, ‘The boys who cry “Holocaust”’ delivers, and here’s just the tip of the iceberg:

    Yet these incompetent militarists are still taken seriously. And the reason is simple: They purport to be supporters of Israel. In American politics, you can get away with even the most cracked war-mongering as long as you claim to be “pro-Israel.” And the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card for anything having to do with Israel is the Holocaust.

    To listen to the neocons and hawks, you’d think Hitler was about to send the tanks over the Polish border……….

    The Holocaust mind-set has led Israel into self-destructive policies. And its promiscuous invocation has helped ensure that Israel maintains a stranglehold over America’s Mideast policy. That stranglehold has always been harmful to America, but it is now actually dangerous.

    Kamiya’s on a roll. On US positioning if and when Israel attacks Iran:

    In other words, it is quite likely that the most powerful nation in the world will simply stand impotently by while a tiny client state threatens to do something that it knows is not just antithetical to its interests, but possibly ruinous to them. The tail could be about to wag the dog right off a cliff.

    Is it my imagination or is our way of thinking gradually permeating the mainstream?

    (Hat tip MW commenter American)

    About annie
    i am a mother, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. i live in the SF bay area.
    View all posts by annie →
    Posted in Iran, Israel Lobby, Israel/Palestine, Neocons
    ← Ed Rendell keynotes fundraiser for Israeli armyOn Shabbos the rabbi stood outside neighbor’s house shouting F-you at his ‘Free Palestine’ bumper sticker →
    { 148 comments… read them below or add one }
    Potsherd2 says:
    November 25, 2011 at 9:51 am
    It may be penetrating the mainstream, but it has yet to penetrate Congress.

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    CloakAndDagger says:
    November 25, 2011 at 5:53 pm
    And there lies the greatest danger that this world has ever seen. If not for our treasonous congress, by now we would have thwarted Israel’s terror on the world. Instead, we can only look on as the destruction of the world becomes more complete each day.

    Funny thing is that with all our condemnation of Israel’s actions, we grossly underestimate what they are capable of, all with the support of our foreign congress. I predict that a false-flag attack on US soil is imminent, far more devastating than 9/11, this time accompanied by a nuclear explosion on the west coast – perhaps the Bay Area (sorry Annie, you and I are both toast).

    link to veteranstoday.com

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    annie says:
    November 25, 2011 at 10:17 pm
    the bay area? some of the most brilliant minds are here, including jewish minds. that would be national suicide on all fronts. don’t f w/us or there will be wrath. we’re not new orleans or nyc. take down SF and america goes under. go west young man, go west..and they did (courageous women too, obviously). we’re not the canary in the coal mine, we’re the enchilada. we’re the rock, the most forward progressive place in the nation and without us america will go under, sink like a stone, hook line and sinker, call it what you will. mark my word. and china will rage. who will prop up that lil apartheid criminal state then? no, i do not believe a false flag nuke attack will take out the bay area. people are just not that stupid.

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    CloakAndDagger says:
    November 26, 2011 at 2:08 am
    Some of the best minds are also in New York, including jewish minds (albeit not the technical minds of Silicon Valley or the social conscience and culture of San Francisco city), but that didn’t stop them.

    Yes, I too am proud of the calibre of people in the Bay Area, and I would never move anywhere else. We are known for being the trouble makers for the PTB for much of our history, and a bane for Israel.

    All the more reason to target us.

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    richb says:
    November 27, 2011 at 11:59 am
    No kidding. See this morning’s front page of the NY Times for all the congressional supporters of the terrorist cult, the MEK.

    link to nytimes.com

    The extraordinary lobbying effort to reverse the terrorist designation of the group, the Mujahedeen Khalq, or People’s Mujahedeen, has won the support of two former C.I.A. directors, R. James Woolsey and Porter J. Goss; a former F.B.I. director, Louis J. Freeh; a former attorney general, Michael B. Mukasey; President George W. Bush’s first homeland security chief, Tom Ridge; President Obama’s first national security adviser, Gen. James L. Jones; big-name Republicans like the former New York mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani and Democrats like the former Vermont governor Howard Dean; and even the former top counterterrorism official of the State Department, Dell L. Dailey, who argued unsuccessfully for ending the terrorist label while in office.

    This is not the first time this was reported in the NYT:

    link to nytimes.com

    A FEW weeks ago I received an e-mail from an acquaintance with the subject line: Have you seen the video everyone is talking about?

    I clicked play, and there was Howard Dean, on March 19 in Berlin, at his most impassioned, extolling the virtues of a woman named Maryam Rajavi and insisting that America should recognize her as the president of Iran.

    Ms. Rajavi and her husband, Massoud, are the leaders of a militant Iranian opposition group called the Mujahedeen Khalq, or Warriors of God. The group’s forces have been based for the last 25 years in Iraq, where I visited them shortly after the fall of Saddam Hussein in April 2003.

    Mr. Dean’s speech stunned me. But then came Rudolph W. Giuliani saying virtually the same thing. At a conference in Paris last December, an emotional Mr. Giuliani told Ms. Rajavi, “These are the most important yearnings of the human soul that you support, and for your organization to be described as a terrorist organization is just simply a disgrace.” I thought I was watching The Onion News Network. Did Mr. Giuliani know whom he was talking about?

    Former DNC head, Howard Dean, even went so far as to offer an Op Ed with Tom Ridge on fox news.com!

    link to foxnews.com

    Dean’s argument was that we should support the MEK because of the plot against the Saudi ambassador even though the co-conspirator is alleged by Iran to be a part of the MEK!

    link to nytimes.com

    Since the Republicans and Democrats disagree on everything including such minor things as JOBS all this unanimity means just one thing, Israel’s involved. A quick Google search confirmed my suspicions.

    The Guardian reported that a recent “accident” in Iran was a covert Israeli operation in conjunction with the MEK:

    link to guardian.co.uk

    A series of news reports linking Israel’s intelligence agency the Mossad to a blast at a military facility in Iran, in which 17 people were killed and a further 15 wounded, has gained widespread coverage in the Israeli media on Monday.

    While Iranian officials insist the explosion at the Bid Ganeh base was accidental, caused by the movement of ammunition, claims from anonymous western and Israeli officials that Saturday’s blast was a covert Israeli operation have gained momentum.

    Leading Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot picked up a post by US blogger Richard Silverstein claiming the Mossad had teamed up with Iranian militant group Mujahideen e-Khalq (MEK) to execute the alleged attack. MEK denies involvement in the attack.

    The MEK was also used to be a front for the Israelis to leak friendly info about the Iranian nuclear program without Israeli fingerprints. Note this cheerleading by Mrs. Rajavi:

    link to ncr-iran.org

    “It is delightful that the agency did not give in to pressure from some member states that wanted to continue to cover up the clerical regime’s nuclear projects, and exposed part of the military aspects of the regime’s nuclear drive. But the bulk of the information contained in the agency’s report, had been exposed by the Iranian resistance since many years ago and made available to the IAEA who could have been published years ago”, she added.

    Was the Iranian resistance finding out about the Iranian nuclear program or is this just a repeat concerning the so-called Iraqi resistance and Saddam’s W.M.D.s. Note this March 2006 New Yorker piece showing it’s the latter:
    link to newyorker.com

    An Iranian-American political activist told me, however, that the N.C.R.I.’s [MEK's] intelligence had actually come from Israel. This person said that Israel had earlier offered it to a monarchist group, but that that group’s leaders had decided that “outing” the regime’s nuclear program would be viewed negatively by Iranians, so they declined the offer. Shahriar Ahy, Reza Pahlavi’s [the former Shah's son] adviser, confirmed that account up to a point. “That information came not from the M.E.K but from a friendly government, and it had come to more than one opposition group, not only the mujahideen,” he said. When I asked him if the “friendly government” was Israel, he smiled. “The friendly government did not want to be the source of it, publicly, If the friendly government gives it to the U.S. publicly, then it would be received differently. Better to come from an opposition group.” Israel is said to have had a relationship with the M.E.K. at least since the late nineties, and to have supplied a satellite signal for N.C.R.I. broadcasts from Paris into Iran. When I asked an Israeli diplomat about Israel’s relationship with the M.E.K., he said, “The M.E.K is useful,” but declined to elaborate.

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    seanmcbride says:
    November 27, 2011 at 1:22 pm
    How did Howard Dean end up in the same camp with neoconservatives and Republicans like James Woolsey, Rudy Giuliani and Michael Mukasey? Is the Democratic Party now as much under the thumb of the neocons as the Republican Party? (In fact, the neocons have been gloating over their control of Barack Obama for several years now.)

    Has the Israel lobby played the lead role in encouraging Dean to support the MEK? The safe bet is that it did. But it would be interesting to uncover the particular facts about this situation.

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    Chaos4700 says:
    November 27, 2011 at 1:44 pm
    Howard Dean went soft. He used to be far too reformist and uncompromising, so the party elite drove a bus over him. (See also: the “Dean Scream”) He was left with a choice: remain true to the stances he maintained, and become an outcast in American politics; or compromise, jettison some of his standards in order to not be ejected completely from the Party.

    Guess which route he chose. It’s definitely something of a beaten path at this point.

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    American says:
    November 27, 2011 at 2:03 pm
    “How did Howard Dean end up in the same camp with neoconservatives”

    Should be obvious by now, actually long ago, that Dean will do anything to stay involved with politics, parrot any line he is fed by the political power structures. He’s nothing, just another mouthpiece and poodle.

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    seanmcbride says:
    November 27, 2011 at 2:35 pm
    Did Howard Dean get on the wrong side of the Israel lobby, and did the Lobby punish him for his transgression? I don’t have time at the moment to research this question, but I vaguely recall that this might be the case.

    I think it’s safe to say that both the Republican and Democratic Parties are now AIPAC/neocon ops — two submissive and obedient arms of the same foreign lobby. This is why there has been little pushback by Democrats against numerous extreme statements made by Republican presidential candidates on US Mideast policy. Democrats don’t dare to open their mouths on the subject for fear of being severely punished — of being “Deaned.”

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    lysias says:
    November 27, 2011 at 2:43 pm
    Very shortly after Dean indicated he was open to the idea of breaking up the big media conglomerates, the mainstream media went after him for that scream.

    Very soon after Gary Hart indicated he was open to the idea of a new investigation of the JFK assassination, the mainstream media went after him for the Donna Rice business.

    Very soon after Mike Gravel indicated, in a PBS News Hour interview, that he blamed the Israel lobby for the drumbeat for war with Iran, he was dropped from the Democratic presidential debates, and thereafter his campaign was ignored by the mainstream media.

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    annie says:
    November 27, 2011 at 3:14 pm
    Howard Dean, on March 19 in Berlin, at his most impassioned, extolling the virtues of a woman named Maryam Rajavi and insisting that America should recognize her as the president of Iran.

    Ms. Rajavi and her husband, Massoud, are the leaders of a militant Iranian opposition group called the Mujahedeen Khalq, or Warriors of God.

    o spare us pllleeease. this is perverse. i was just reading about the Warriors of God yesterday. i’ll go see if i can dig it up.

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    annie says:
    November 27, 2011 at 3:33 pm
    couldn’t find it just yet but ran into this great escobar article keith linked to down thread
    link to dissidentvoice.org

    As Tehran sees it, what’s really going on regarding Syria is a “humanitarian” cover for a complex anti-Shi’ite and anti-Iran operation.

    The road map is already clear. A fractious, unrepresentative Syrian National Council — Libya-style — is already in place. Same for a heavily armed Sunni “insurgency” crisscrossing the borders in Lebanon and Turkey. Sanctions are already essentially hurting the Syrian middle class. A relentless, international campaign of vilification of the Assad regime has been deployed. And psy ops abound, with the aim of seducing sections of the Syrian army to defect (it’s not working).

    A report1 by a Qatar-based researcher for the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) even comes close to admitting that the self-described “Free Syria Army” is basically a bunch of hardcore Islamists, plus a few genuine army defectors, but mostly radicalized Muslim Brotherhood bought, paid for and weaponized by the US, Israel, the Gulf monarchies and Turkey. There’s nothing “pro-democracy” about this lot – as incessantly sold by Western corporate and Saudi-owned media.

    As for the National Council, based in Washington and London and sprinkled with the usual dodgy exiles, its program calls for governing Syria alongside the same military that has been — a la the Egyptian military junta — shooting civilian protesters. Makes one think that the only sensible solution would be for the people in Syria to topple the police state Assad regime, while being vehemently against the dodgy Syrian National Council.

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    justicewillprevail says:
    November 25, 2011 at 9:58 am
    No, it’s not your imagination. The blatant railroading by the zealots has become insufferable, not to mention dangerous. We’ve seen it all before re Iraq, and there are enough people who will refuse to observe the blanket ban on criticising Israel or its insane ideology. The catastrophic direction Israel is forcing on the US through its agents’ muzzling bills in Congress has become so unapologetic, so Dr Strangelove, that a groundswell is, quite understandably, building. Just as the US gets out of Iraq having spent trillions for no discernible benefit, the warmongers are foaming at the mouth to repeat the whole thing on a scale which could exceed Iraq enormously. There will be no good outcome, unless you count more terrorism, death and destruction as such, which the neocons do, for them it ‘proves’ they were right. There is a feeling that the lobby, an elite of media commentators and craven representatives are completely out of control, do not represent US citizens, and have the potential to create mayhem for years to come, not to mention derailing the economy even further. The country has been hijacked by ideologues, very well-off people who will not be anywhere near the danger they propose to put everybody else in. There is not even credible evidence regarding Iran’s nuclear programme, yet we are subject to hysterical fearmongering. Enough is enough, time to call them on it, have some open and frank debate for once, and junk this pathetic charade that Israel must be indulged, whatever the cost, and must never, ever by criticised or called to account. Time for the old men with their war lust to leave the stage. And take your anti-human, demagogic BS with you.

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    annie says:
    November 25, 2011 at 12:33 pm
    The catastrophic direction Israel is forcing on the US through its agents’ muzzling bills in Congress has become so unapologetic, so Dr Strangelove, that a groundswell is, quite understandably, building.

    we’re going to have to keep exposing this because eventually it will become so clear what’s going on congress will have to account for their groveling in the face of looming danger from these ideologues.

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    Whizdom says:
    November 25, 2011 at 10:02 am
    link to forward.com

    The Holocaust metaphor, 2011 is the new 1939

    From the Forward on the ZOA annual awards dinner. Not a democrat in sight.

    Beck, Bachman, and Ros-Lehtinen

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    lobewyper says:
    November 25, 2011 at 10:10 am
    Iran’s leaders may lack “emotional intelligence” judging by the depreciating remarks they have uttered about Israel, but as Steve Walt and many others have pointed out, there is not a shred of evidence that they are suicidal. Israel has more than enough warheads and the means to deliver them to ensure an Iranian attack would trigger retaliation that would lay waste to their entire country. This obvious point seems to keep being overlooked by the war drums folks both here and in Israel. Why??? (Thanks, Annie!)

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    annie says:
    November 25, 2011 at 12:38 pm
    appreciated lobewyper but the hat tip goes to american who linked to this article in one of these threads, i just grabbed and pasted for the most part.

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    lobewyper says:
    November 25, 2011 at 1:11 pm
    OK, american, I tip my hat to you!

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    lobewyper says:
    November 25, 2011 at 12:59 pm
    Sorry, but didn’t realize the answer to my question was implicit in the Salon article:

    “What a nuclear Iran really threatens, as several top Israeli officials have admitted, is Israeli hegemony in the region. The Arab Spring and the rise of Turkey have already begun to erode that hegemony, and Iran’s inevitable acquisition of the ability to build a bomb will further erode it. Israel cannot fight this trend. The days when it could impose its will by bullying are over. It must learn to live with its neighbors.”

    (The article also makes the point that an Iranian attack would lead to massive nuclear retaliation.)

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    annie says:
    November 25, 2011 at 1:07 pm
    yeah, it really is a very comprehensive article. speaking of consequences i just read an interesting article from india link to timesofindia.indiatimes.com

    World will accept Nuclear Iran, says Israeli economist

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    lobewyper says:
    November 25, 2011 at 1:21 pm
    It will have to accept it, if it comes to that. Moreover, If Israel preemptively attacks Iran, the resultant effects on world-wide economies (see article linked by Annie) would rapidly lead to the worst outbreak of anti-Semitism since the Holocaust, IMHO.

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    lobewyper says:
    November 25, 2011 at 1:59 pm
    Because of the potential dangers of such an outbreak, Israel will NEVER launch a pre-emptive strike against Iran by herself. However, she is certainly going to continue trying to get the United States to do it for (and perhaps, with) her!

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    MRW says:
    November 25, 2011 at 2:36 pm
    Lobewyper,

    You’re right about the global antisemitism. It will be chilling in its generational reach, and it will last for the rest of this century too for the simple reason that it will spawn books and monographs that will attempt to ask whether Hitler was right. The European laws against mentioning the holocaust will be reversed, and we will be flooded with translations of documents long hidden.

    But to the more immediate point, and one not mentioned in the Salon article, is that Russia’s military satellites are poised over the Middle East. The instant an Israeli plane takes off for Iran, the Russians will be on the phone to Iran. The entire western flank of the Iranian mountain range that traverses the NW-SE diagonal of Iran and is 1/3 of the way into Iran (what has kept that country safe for five millennia) is studded with embedded anti-aircraft missile sites. Scott Ritter described this in a talk with Seymour Hersh five years ago. He said flying into Iran from the west is a suicide mission for any country that attempts it. Furthermore, Iran has the Russian bombs that can obliterate any aircraft carrier in the Straits of Hormuz.

    The wild card is how Russia would react.

    Former head of Mossad Meir Dagan is Russian, and he is known to despise the USA. He does not like Americans of any stripe; he does not care if you are Jewish. His characterization of the stupidity of bombing Iran has zero relationship to the USA and everything to do with Israel. He considers both Netanyahu and Barak to be reckless stewards, which he said bluntly in a Haaretz article earlier this year; he said that he, General Ashkenazi, and the head of Shin Bet were always able to do an end-run around Netanyahu to keep him in line. Let’s hope the Israelis have the smarts to listen to him.

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    American says:
    November 25, 2011 at 2:38 pm
    “she is certainly going to continue trying to get the United States to do it for her:

    What worries me lobe, is I believe Netanyahu is so confident of the lobby’s control of the US that he thinks the US would rush in to back up Israel the minute it attacked Iran regardless that the US asked them not to do that.
    And with our congress and sorry state of politics he may be right

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    American says:
    November 25, 2011 at 2:46 pm
    “The wild card is how Russia would react”

    Agree MRW, what I’ve been saying also.
    I also wonder what Russia knows that Israel and the US don’t even know, their KGB wrote the book on covert intelligence and still owns it by all accounts.

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    American says:
    November 25, 2011 at 3:43 pm
    “would rapidly lead to the worst outbreak of anti-Semitism since the Holocaust, IMHO.”

    Sometimes I think it’s only my own lying eyes that keep me from questioning my own sanity.
    Cause how can anyone explain this:…?

    Jews sacred to death of being despised into another holocaust.
    BUT….
    Jews (some) demand release of Pollard, worse traitor in US modern history, because he’s Jewish and did it for Israel.
    Jews (some) demand US get into war with Iran for Jewish state.
    Jews (some) always quoted in msm on how their 1st US political concern is Israel.
    Jewish congressional cohorts rush to Israel to promise them US money no matter how Americans are suffering.
    Jewish lobby, with no shame, US taxpayer money sucking machine for Israel.
    Jews (some) applaud Netanyahu for humilating US president.
    Jews (some) constantly appearing in msm threatening US politicians if tbey don’t supprt Israel.
    All in public with no attempt to hide it.

    Yep, like being scared to death of water and jumping in it and splashing around as hard as they can every chance they get. I don’t believe for a second they are really afraid of another holocaust.

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    teta mother me says:
    November 25, 2011 at 7:09 pm
    I watched the video of the Egyptian activists — getting hurt, killed; and they are the age of my children.
    I cried. I couldn’t stop crying.
    Pray god my children do not have to put their young and promising lives on the line to save their country, the United States, that has gone mad.k
    But whether bloodletting does or does not come to our children’s generation, their live are fundamentally impacted by the warmongers. The US has become a pariah state, doing things alien to its founding charter.
    That is tragic.
    But you really don’t want to be in my line of sight if my children are harmed.
    I have no concept of how Palestinian and Iraqi and Afghani and Iranian women do it — watch their children get killed, shredded, and not rip the face off the next person they see who might have caused that death. I don’t think I would be able to restrain myself.

    Here’s another thing, American — you very politically correctly inserted (some) in front of every reference to Jews acting badly, lest you be accused of generalizing the behavior of some to the entirety.
    Well done.
    Perhaps you could send the message to Mark Kirk, Brad Sherman, and the entire Israeli government — Kirk and Sherman are all for punishing the ENTIRE Iranian public until they knuckle under. That’s collective punishment.
    And the Israeli government and its acolytes in the US are all for punishing all Palestinians AS WELL AS the entire Iranian public — more collective punishment.

    So good for you, you don’t cast ALL Jews in the same collective.

    But to paraphrase Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA), “Critics [of sanctions generalizing critiques to ALL Jews] argued that these measures will hurt the Iranian JEWISH people. Quite frankly, we need to do just that.”

    ALL JEWS have got to take this fight to the fellow Jews (oh, and J Street — no, it is not Obama’s problem to solve, it is YOUR problem to solve). If they don’t, someone else will.

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    lobewyper says:
    November 25, 2011 at 8:19 pm
    American, whether the US would back an Israeli strike is the question. I don’t think there is going to be a strike, by anyone. Even with US backing/or participation, the perception is still going to be that a strike was Israel’s idea, and there is still going to be serious anti-Semitic backlash, because it is well known that Israel owns the US government from the president on down.

    For the US to back Israel against Iran would lead to the alienation of too many people, cause too much havoc in the world economy, and the American people are sick of war.

    The US-Israeli grand strategy may be something like this: Stir up as much discussion of a proposed strike against Iran as possible, and keep the sheeple focused on it. In the meantime, the Israelis will use this focus to distract attention from increasingly aggressive land theft in the West Bank. Later, when war is “averted” at the last minute, Obama can take the credit for bringing the Israeli government back to its “senses.”

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    American says:
    November 26, 2011 at 12:25 am
    Here’s something of interest for you Lobe…from Jim Lobe’s site:

    “Arshin Adib-Moghaddam’s latest piece in the Guardian is a timely read. Unlike some of the histrionics behind contemporary Iran analysis, Adib-Moghaddam actually uses facts and numbers – which unfortunately is a novel concept to the larger Iran debate. Money Quote:

    “‘But that narrative [Iran’s economic crisis] does not correspond to the facts. The World Bank set the economic growth of Iran at 3.0% in 2010, and the IMF says nominal GDP grew from $330.5bn in 2009 to $360bn in 2010. The IMF recently wrapped up a visit to Iran and commended the government for early successes with the subsidy reform programme and the advances in the financial sector, which is boosted by a buoyant stock market. The argument that Iran is economically isolated does not hold either. According to the most recent UNCTAD report, foreign direct investment to the country has increased exponentially from $1.6bn in 2008 to $3.6bn in 2010. This does not mean that there are no serious economic problems in the country; there are many and they range from corruption to structural inefficiency. It means that there is another side to the Iran story that is subdued for ideological reasons. Ultimately, the US and to a lesser extent the European Union are disqualifying themselves from the Iranian market during a period of intense economic calamity. China and Russia say “thank you”.

    Hummmm…how long will Israel stand for Iran not going down on sanctions?

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    American says:
    November 26, 2011 at 2:12 am
    “Here’s another thing, American — you very politically correctly inserted (some) in front of every reference to Jews acting badly, lest you be accused of generalizing..”

    Thanks teta but I am famously Politically Incorrect as everyone here knows.
    I use some because’ some’ is accurate and a uncomplicated word.
    And I have browbeat my politicians on the I/P and Israel issues so often it’s a wonder I’m not on the no-fly list.
    It will change eventually, can’t go on this way I don’t think. Something is bound to happen.

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    Taxi says:
    November 26, 2011 at 6:32 am
    Guys guys guys let’s be clear on definitions here:
    Antisemitism: Hostility towards or prejudice against INNOCENT jews.

    A reactive hostility towards CRIMINAL jews AIN’T ANTISEMITISM!

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    lobewyper says:
    November 26, 2011 at 9:02 am
    Thanks, American. Great find! Another quote from Arshin:

    “If the analysis of a country is wrong the policy prescriptions are bound to be wrong too. Afghanistan and Iraq are very good examples of that relationship between the absence of sound knowledge on a country and strategic failure.”

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    annie says:
    November 26, 2011 at 11:18 am
    american, Jews (some)…. Jews (some)…. Jews (some)….

    this reminds me of the big pedophilia sex scandal being kept somewhat under wraps in brooklyn/borough park. listen to the radio program. my take on it is you’ve got a few powerful people in the community dictating, over and above common sense and the law, how the jewish community should deal with sex abuse for the purpose of not vilifying the community. all at the expense of their own children.

    but, as the radio show makes clear from the people who call in as does groups like survivors for justice the people who are fighting very hard to end this abuse and have perpetrators be held accountable..who are they? they are jews. it’s the community all around outside the jewish community, the rest of us, who treat this scandal differently..the same way israel is being treated differently. why? why no penn state screaming headlines? that’s not just the fault of jews, it’s the fault of all of us.

    if we get dragged into another war with iran it would be drastically unfair to blame the jewish community when for the most part it is the extremists within the community dictating the meme. and it’s not a meme followed solely by the jewish community as it pertains to them, it is all of us allowing a separate standard as it pertains to them. so why is that? we (americans who are not jewish) are just as much to blame for not speaking out against extremism as those within the community. but everyone is for the most part silent about it. well, not silent about iran (or support for israel) and not silent about pedophilia but for the most part silent about whose driving this push to war with iran as well as silent about whose pushing this silence on reporting this sex scandal as it pertains to them. and the results are the same on both issues for members of the jewish communities, they become outcasts. but we are as much to blame for allowing extremists to dictate an exceptional position and attitude for one community for fear of being accused of villifying the jewish community. it’s got to stop. and if there is a wave of anti semitism that sweeps the country i will fight it with all my might because we are as much to blame.

    we have to shout these nutjobs down, not mimic the responses of those who succumb to this mindset because it makes us as brainwashed as their followers.

    teta mother me,
    ALL JEWS have got to take this fight to the fellow Jews

    all of us. as americans of conscience we have speak in a load unified voice. we cannot dump this problem solely on the laps of other jews to stand up to their extremists. we don’t do that to our other minority groups. we don’t call on the hispanic community to fix the immigration problem and wash our hands of it. we’re all effected by the impact so it becomes all of us responsible to fight back.

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    Chaos4700 says:
    November 26, 2011 at 12:03 pm
    Annie that’s hopelessly naive. There are a lot of non-Jews who can’t speak out so openly because the Zionist Inquisition will get us labeled as “anti-Semites” and get us blacklisted in our careers. There’s a reason I’m so furtive about who I am, exactly where in the Midwest I live and where I work. I’d like to think my boss’s boss is fair, but I can’t afford to take the risk.

    Some of us labor under a very real risk of losing our jobs — and not just our jobs, but possibly our careers — by speaking out for Palestinian human rights. That doesn’t stop me from doing so but I’m very careful. And that means I can’t afford to speak out about the Jewish community. The risk is too high.

    The Jewish community, in the US and elsewhere, has built a massive fortress society around itself and this is the consequence. People are afraid of Jews. (Congrats, eee, you’ve gotten exactly what you wanted there.) As far as I’m concerned, the fight you’re describing is totally internal to the Jewish community and no one else can afford to fight it.

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    seanmcbride says:
    November 26, 2011 at 12:30 pm
    annie,

    To what extent would you attribute blame for the crimes of Nazism on “the German community” of Germany and around the world at the time?

    If the organized Jewish establishment succeeds in promoting a war against Iran that leads to a catastrophic outcome for Americans and much of the world, how much responsibility should it be forced to assume for its actions?

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    lobewyper says:
    November 26, 2011 at 12:41 pm
    The Israelis IMHO are bluffing. They get ex-heads of the Mossad to say publicly that an Iran attack would be catastrophic for Israel, yet the Israeli leadership “appear” to be unmoved by such arguments. Result: so long as they remain in power, others will believe that they just might do it–even alone. (I realize I have just accused former Mossad leaders of complicity in helping deliberately to mislead not only their countrymen but all the rest of us! Hope Israeli drones can’t reach the Midwest…).

    This “We’ll go it alone if we have to” is simply too risky. Not only is the risk of losing US aid great (due to $10 gas, etc.), but they also risk huge losses of financial support from Diasporan Jews. My advice, Bibi: “Cut the best deal you can as fast as you can.” Time is definitely running out!

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    seanmcbride says:
    November 26, 2011 at 12:42 pm
    I am predicting that there is a high probability that Zionism is going to lead to the worst outbreak of anti-Semitism in world history, all around the world all at once, and especially in the United States. And it should be obvious by now that quite a few Zionists are banking on this outcome and looking forward to it. They are dangerously insane.

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    seanmcbride says:
    November 26, 2011 at 12:44 pm
    True or false: mystical rhetoric about the sacredness of Jewish peoplehood and nationhood is precisely like mystical rhetoric about the sacredness of Aryan peoplehood and nationhood employed by Nazis and white nationalists. This kind of messianic rhetoric is often used by leading members of the contemporary Jewish and Zionist establishment.

    Who should be held responsible for legitimizing, enabling and mainstreaming these attitudes and ideas? The community as a whole?

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    seanmcbride says:
    November 26, 2011 at 12:50 pm
    What could be a more dangerous game than for any small ethnic group in a complex multicultural society to try to bully and intimidate all ethnic outsiders and the society as a whole into absolute submission through threats and fear? There is no conceivable way that these kinds of methods can succeed in the long run. Predictably they will provoke a powerful backlash down the line.

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    lobewyper says:
    November 26, 2011 at 12:59 pm
    Sean,

    I’m not so sure Zionism (in the absence of an attack upon Iran) will lead to an anti-Semitic outbreak. Why? Because there won’t be an attack on Iran which at best would probably set back an Iranian nuclear program a few years at best. Then (when the anti-Semitic wave is in full swing due to the initial attack), they will have to attack again, increasing anti-Semitism still further. Way too risky and the Israelis aren’t that stupid. If they ARE that stupid, they will richly deserve their subsequent fate!

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    seanmcbride says:
    November 26, 2011 at 1:23 pm
    lobewyper,

    My prediction does not rely on a disastrous attack on Iran for its fulfillment. What I am noticing is the convergence of several trends: 1. the increasing radicalization of Zionism and Zionists in general (especially with the growing importance of messianic religious Zionism and Zionists, both Jewish and Christian). 2. the steady escalation of personal attacks by pro-Israel activists on influential Americans and Europeans, which are no doubt arousing the wrath of those who have been attacked. 3. the likely catastrophic economic consequences for Americans and Europeans of the entire Global War on Terror and Clash of Civilizations propaganda campaign (and con game), which will inevitably be blamed on the neoconservative and Christian Zionist wings of the Israel lobby (which have loudly presented themselves to the world as authoritative representatives of “the Jews” — all Jews).

    But the most important factor of all: many Zionists seem to be turned on by apocalyptic biblical scenarios which pit Israel against “the nations.” It’s a powerful drug for them, one which they cannot resist. I am predicting that they actualize their delusional beliefs in the real world, with easily foreseeable results.

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    annie says:
    November 26, 2011 at 1:32 pm
    There are a lot of non-Jews who can’t speak out so openly because the Zionist Inquisition will get us labeled as “anti-Semites” and get us blacklisted in our careers.

    no that is not true, there are a lot of non-Jews who won’t speak out for those reasons, not ‘can’t’.

    the fight you’re describing is totally internal to the Jewish community and no one else can afford to fight it.

    that’s crazy. and if those jews working internally can’t manage to fight it then who pays the price? don’t you think that is an awfully big load to put on the shoulders some jews? you don’t think they risk being blacklisted? we have to stand up just like Kamiya has with this article. it’s an american problem, not just a jewish problem. there are hundreds of millions of us and stupid to think we should all be in fear of speaking out. that’s what allows this festering ‘special relationship’ to grow.

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    Chaos4700 says:
    November 26, 2011 at 1:49 pm
    You might be fine with throwing away everything you worked hard for and put yourself in debt for, so that you didn’t have to work jobs that involved peddling crappy Chinese imports, selling worthless insurance over the phone or exposing yourself to industrial carcinogens every day for the rest of your life, but I’m not.

    And it’s stupid. No amount of influence will change the Jewish community from the outside. Jewish community, Jewish problem. All of us have our own problems and they just aren’t victims in this case. I’ll stick to sticking my neck out for African Americans and Hispanics and Muslims and people who actually need my help, thanks, annie. The Jewish community ain’t exactly hurting for resources to solve its own problems.

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    annie says:
    November 26, 2011 at 1:50 pm
    Who should be held responsible for legitimizing, enabling and mainstreaming these attitudes and ideas? The community as a whole?

    i think you are missing my point. we have a big problem that requires a big voice of rejection. we all need to take responsibility to FIX the problem. that is what i meant by ‘all of us’. not ‘ALL JEWS have got to take this fight to the fellow Jews’ but all of us need to confront the neocons and their supporters and tell them they can no longer go on dictating american foreign policy, we want them our, we voted them out and they are still here. then we need to loudly communicate to places like the NYT and ask them ‘why are you shoving these discredited warmongering freakjobs down our throat again?’

    we can’t just sit back in silence for fear of being called anti semitic and rely on the jewsih community to fix itself internally. THAT is a recipe for disaster. that is exactly what the extremists WANT you to do, ‘leave israel alone’. ‘let the jewish community decide our policies for israel’ NO THANK YOU.

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    annie says:
    November 26, 2011 at 1:53 pm
    then what are you here for chaos? why aren’t you just leaving it to the jewish community?

    what i’m hearing you saying is we should all just back out, the other 98% of us, and leave the doing and thinking to the other jews. how helpful/not.

    nothing like throwing our allies in the jewish community under a bus.

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    Chaos4700 says:
    November 26, 2011 at 1:58 pm
    “‘let the jewish community decide our policies for israel” is easy to solve. Take the money out of American politics. It doesn’t require us meddling in the affairs of the Jewish community.

    Annie, nobody has any responsibility to “save” the Jewish community, except Jews. For the rest of us, we have the greater community to worry about. Even if the American Jewish community was saintly and guiltless they still shouldn’t have absolute control over US foreign policy like they do now.

    That’s our problem, right now. Everything else is secondary. I couldn’t care less about whether the Jewish community cleaves itself in twain when right now, my nephew is growing up facing being press-ganged into a war with Iran.

    The consequences for non-Jews confronting what you’re talking about are FAR far greater than Jews, annie. That’s just a fact. It’s a waste of resources. And if you hadn’t noticed, Mondoweiss isn’t exclusively Jewish in character. Not by a long shot.

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    annie says:
    November 26, 2011 at 1:58 pm
    What could be a more dangerous game than for any small ethnic group in a complex multicultural society to try to bully and intimidate all ethnic outsiders and the society as a whole into absolute submission through threats and fear?

    it is only part of a small ethnic group doing that. it’s completely racist to blame an entire ethnic group for the actions of some. i can’t believe we are even having this conversation.

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    Chaos4700 says:
    November 26, 2011 at 2:04 pm
    The small part you are talking about are the LEADERS of said ethnic group, annie. “Just following orders” is never a valid defense, of anything.

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    lobewyper says:
    November 26, 2011 at 2:19 pm
    Sean,

    My take: Unless “their delusional beliefs in the real world” lead to an attack upon Iran, I don’t think I agree with you (although I’m hardly an expert on foreign policy!). Re: your point # 2–I think you’re overestimating the effects of this. Re: #3, it won’t be all that easy to pin the War on Terror on the (mostly Jewish) neocons. John Mearsheimer said in a lecture at the U. of Chicago this past summer that the Bush government at the time believed that Saddam and Al Qaeda were “joined at the hip.” The neocons pushed things over the edge, but the Iraq war can’t be laid entirely on them. Further, the MSM will never be permitted (or permit itself) to open the door to anti-Semitic sentiment.

    I agree generally with your implication that things are seriously worsening by the minute for the Israelis, and that in the process of “circling the wagons,” they are becomingly increasingly resistant to reason. I think that the Edgar Bronfmans and other influential diasporan Jews are going to have to step up, because no one else (especially, the US government) is in a position of influence with them.

    The American people are already suffering due to the financial crisis, and they do not appreciate having to do so to provide foreign aid (see Ron Paul’s popularity). Since Israel gets the lion’s share of aid, they are treading on very thin ice.

    The average American still sees Israel as David and the Arab/Muslim world as Goliath. He/she also sees it as “the only democracy in the middle east.” As these misconceptions continue to weaken, so will the support of the American public–something I believe is inevitable.

    The US high-level leadership knows of the views of people like Phil, Adam, Steve Walt, and many others. Walt for one has presented to the CIA and the US War College. Just maybe, our leadership is looking for a way out. Recall Hillary’s praise for Al Jazeera (now we have it for an hour a day in Chicago). Why did she praise it? Maybe because getting Al Jazeera is one important step to awakening the American public to the truth of the situation–a truth that has to be told by folks outside the government due to AIPAC et al.!

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    annie says:
    November 26, 2011 at 2:31 pm
    Annie, nobody has any responsibility to “save” the Jewish community, except Jews.

    i’m sorry chaos. i can’t keep track of everything i’ve said on this thread. could you copy the part where i was advocating ‘saving the jewish community’ so i could address it in context of the conversation. thanks.

    The consequences for non-Jews confronting what you’re talking about are FAR far greater than Jews, annie. That’s just a fact. It’s a waste of resources.

    i’m really not following you. it seems to me you are advocating non jews stay out of it while at the same time spending your time fighting against what you perceive as undo influence by powerful members of one ethnic group. i thought you weren’t jewish. if this is a problem you think only jews should solve why are you in this conversation.

    you’ve got to pick one position or the other chaos, you can’t pretend like you’re not being an activist while you’re being an activist. you’re either in this or you aren’t. or do you only speak up anonymously online? is that what the other 98% are afforded? an anonymous voice online? do you think george mitchell should have stayed out of it too. after all, he’s not jewish.

    we just disagree. obviously christian zionists are all over the place blathering what america should do for israel and they aren’t jews. i think the louder we are the better. i want a big american conversation and i want it NOW.

    that’s my opinion, it’s an american problem and it’s going to take an american solution, not a jewish american solution. and when things go to hell in a handbasket if we genocide iran i’m going to be holding america responsible, not just ‘the jewish community’.

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    lobewyper says:
    November 26, 2011 at 2:34 pm
    P.S. Here’s a possible move:

    Offer to trade Pollard for all the remaining Palestinians still imprisoned by Israel! :)

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    Chaos4700 says:
    November 26, 2011 at 2:38 pm
    I’m in this conversation because you’re advocating that people throw themselves off a cliff when the safety cushion at the bottom isn’t even inflated. Annie, people get RUINED for standing up to the Lobby, and not just in politics.

    If American Jews are indeed reforming, and they indeed need help, then they have to do something about that first. It’s one thing for someone to jump into sub-arctic waters to save someone who’s drowning (i.e. Palestine), it’s another thing to ask them to jump off a plane without a parachute to fetch a falling briefcase with really important papers in it (i.e. what you’re talking about).

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    annie says:
    November 26, 2011 at 2:41 pm
    “Just following orders” is never a valid defense, of anything.

    in case you have not noticed chaos, there are a lot more people ‘just following orders’ here than those in the jewish community. a LOT more. in fact i hold those in congress more responsible than my jewish neighbor across the street.

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    annie says:
    November 26, 2011 at 2:42 pm
    I’m in this conversation because you’re advocating that people throw themselves off a cliff

    source. copy and paste please.

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    Chaos4700 says:
    November 26, 2011 at 2:46 pm
    We’re both wasting time. You have no idea what you’re demanding people to put themselves through for a futile effort, and if I’m right, I’m sure some day you’ll feel sorry for that. I’ve said what I’ve said and I’m moving on.

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    annie says:
    November 26, 2011 at 3:03 pm
    you’re demanding people to put themselves through for a futile effort, and if I’m right, I’m sure some day you’ll feel sorry for that.

    sure chaos, getting all drama queenie on us. you’ve made a bunch of allegations and accusations you have no intention of backing up, because you can’t. if you could defend “you’re advocating that people throw themselves off a cliff ” you would. instead you tell me i’ll feel sorry someday for my position and claim i am “demanding” something. you tell me nobody has any responsibility to “save” the Jewish community except jews, using quotes, but i can’t recall that we were even in a conversation about “saving” the jewish community. excuse me?

    plus, i ask you politely for clarification and you double down on the rhetoric on your way out the door.

    I’m moving on.

    smart move.

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    seanmcbride says:
    November 26, 2011 at 3:19 pm
    annie:

    You wrote:

    “it is only part of a small ethnic group doing that. it’s completely racist to blame an entire ethnic group for the actions of some. i can’t believe we are even having this conversation.”

    The contemporary Jewish establishment is powerfully and overwhelmingly dominated by militant Zionists who loudly and conspicuously claim to speak for “the Jews” as a whole. They have drilled this belief deeply into the minds of most Americans and Europeans, who don’t have have the time and energy to sift through the subtleties of Zionist and Jewish politics, and most of whom have never heard Jewish voices like Philip Weiss.

    These same highly visible leaders have used high-handed and brutal methods to try to intimidate and silence the political opposition (including many highly influential Americans and Europeans right up to presidents and heads of state) in the fanatical pursuit of policies that are quite likely going to be catastrophic for the United States and Europe.

    I think it is important to have a discussion about what are some plausible or probable future scenarios concerning the role of Israel in American, European and global politics.

    *I* don’t think that “the Jews” or most Jews are responsible for the policies of the Israeli government or the Israel lobby. I never use the inflammatory term “the Jews” and don’t think of Jews in terms of a monolithic collective. But I am willing to bet that most Americans and Europeans conflate Israel and “the Jews” in their minds — after all, they have been heavily propagandized to do so by the leaders of the Jewish establishment. If Israeli policies lead to a great deal of misery for Americans and Europeans, it’s not difficult to imagine how events could play out.

    Am I being overly alarmist? Perhaps. But I don’t think so. There is a well-established historical pattern here that one shouldn’t ignore.

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    seanmcbride says:
    November 26, 2011 at 3:34 pm
    Chaos,

    If I understand your and Annie’s respective arguments correctly, I tend to agree with you. Leaders of the Jewish establishment have created the conditions in the United States in which it is impossible for American politicians to challenge, criticize or oppose the Israeli government and the Israel lobby without committing career suicide.

    Sean, I think you’re right about this. These leaders have essentially attacked (and very effectively) one of our basic freedoms–freedom of speech. How are we as a democracy are supposed to be able to freely discuss our middle eastern foreign policy as it involves Israel? On this point, I agree with Annie–the problem is NOT merely a Jewish-American one, it belongs to and must be addressed by all of us!

  21. seanmcbride says:

    Chaos,

    I think many non-Jews (including Christian Zionists) have played a major role in pushing American Mideast policy in a wrong and self-destructive direction, but I also think that the Jewish leadership of the Israeli government and of the American and worldwide Jewish *establishment* (not the Jewish community as a whole) bear primary responsibility for driving and directing this political machine. They need to be confronted in a direct and fair way, in the same way we openly discuss and debate the activities of Christian and Muslim organizations. Americans have every right to disagree with Jewish leaders of the Israel lobby and to express their disagreements forthrightly, while being careful not to drift into the unacceptable territory of anti-Semitic rhetoric and incitement.

    I think Jewish billionaires like Mort Zuckerman, Sheldon Adelson, Haim Saban, Ronald Lauder, Bernard Marcus, Bruce Kovner and Michael Bloomberg (among several dozen billionaires who lead the Jewish faction of the Israel lobby) are far more consequential than Christian Zionist leaders like John Hagee, who frankly strike me as weak-minded charlatans who are easily led around by the nose by the Israeli government, Likud, Mossad, AIPAC, the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, etc. This is the political network that is in financial command of an extensive network of mainstream media outlets and policy centers that are much more important in controlling the US government and public discourse on Mideast politics than CUFI (Christians United for Israel).

    I wonder if Annie has any thoughts on this point of view.

    To effectively challenge the Israel lobby, one must challenge its most influential financiers, leaders and institutions, not pick away at the edges.