"Book of Esther given to Obama by Bibi Netanyahu: not so hidden message, Esther stopped plan to kill Jews- Obama should be Esther, Bomb Iran," Michael Ratner of the Center for Constitutional Rights wrote to me on Monday minutes after Netanyahu made his gift.
"Then, too they wanted to wipe us out," Netanyahu reportedly told Obama in giving him the Bible story that ends with mass-murder of Persians.
Now lots of other people are on this story. Robert Wright at the Atlantic makes an excellent point:
Why is it routine to talk about Iranian religious fanatics who are leading us toward war and so rare to acknowledge the role that religious tribalism in America--among both conservative Jews and conservative Christians--is playing in leading us to war? And why is it that when Muslim radicals use religious scripture in a way that foments belligerence we consider it primitive and vile, whereas when Bibi Netanyahu does the same thing (more subtly, I grant you) we nod politely and smile?
Yes and why do we denounced religious tribalism on the abortion issue in our politics and let it go when religious tribalists are leading a Marcus Garvey movement for Jews (Zionism)?
Hi Phil, you got it slightly wrong..
AIPAC is Esther and Mordechai who aim at political domination
Obama is King Ahasuerus who kills the bad Goyim on behalf of the Jews
Iran is Haman who is slaughtered with his sons..
All pretty simple..all in the open..
If AIPAC is both Esther and Mordechai, are you suggesting, perchance, that when we glimpse The Dersch we be thinking new Esther?
As for Mordechai, the self-serving ethno-sage, there are at least 10,000 candidates vying for the role.
If AIPAC is both Esther and Mordechai, are you suggesting, perchance, that when we glimpse The Dersch we be thinking new Esther?
Well there were two Mordechais. Dersh undoubtedly represents the original “ticking bomb” that made it so urgent for Haman/Mordechai Vanunu to act.
/Netanyahu gives genocidal bible story to Obama/
The Purim story was used for centuries in classic antisemitic propaganda
and blood libels.
You sure you want to go that way Phil ?
Phil didn’t hand Obama the book of Esther and say ‘then, too, they wanted to wipe us out.’
Tribalist fanatics like yourself don’t know what antisemitism is. It is simply a rhetorical tool for you to emotionally blackmail your political opponents and fear/war-monger.
That is what your racist leader is doing.
Look at the links i provided below.
“”Then, too they wanted to wipe us out,” Netanyahu reportedly told Obama in giving him the Bible story that ends with mass-murder of Persians.”
In this sentence Phil implies that Netanyahu wishes
mass-murder of Persians and repeats the old antisemitic allegations
connected to this holiday.
The labeling that you use is more descriptive of yourself then of me.
Are you saying that Netanyahu’s point isn’t to promote war on Iran, which necessarily results in mass-murder of Persians?
Oleg, old pal, do yourself a favor and stop reading Mondoweiss. You’re just going to get more and more upset until you say something really stupid, and get banned. Why not quit while you’re behind?
Antisemitism is not an element on the periodic table you putz.
If Zionists are actually fear/war-mongering, then there is not antisemitism (industry) complex to apply.
You rattle off the typical 1-2 step emotional blackmail song and dance without any actual argument.
Netanyahu uses a religious book and motifs to drum up support for a war w/ Iran.
And instead of calling him antisemitic for using Judaism as a justification for his political scare tactics, you make the hilarious accusation against Phil for CITING NETANYAHU.
LOL
And no, the labeling I use has nothing to do with me.
I am not a Zionist Jew or Christian Evangelical nutcase.
I am secular, atheist and anti-colonialist.
You are a ethno-religious-nationalist and pro-colonist (by which you pathetically attempt to reframe the power dynamic between the Palestinians and Israelis as SIMPLY two opposing nationalisms first and foremost).
You’re a horrible troll. Go back to hasbara central.
/you make the hilarious accusation against Phil for CITING NETANYAHU./
You have some trouble reading or with understanding .
I’ll try again
Phil did not only cite Netanyahu he made a remark of his own
” in giving him the Bible story that ends with mass-murder of Persians.”
Not only this is a perversion of the story it’self.
Specifically this part of the story throughout history has been widely used by antisemites to accuse Jews of being
revengeful people with genocidal tendencies.
I have provided some links below they are still waiting moderation.
This is what made me wonder why would Phil go this way.
worker bee
No the point is not promoting war
The point for this whole charade is to make sure Iran gets more and more
political and diplomatic pressure to cease their nuclear program.
To Mooser
I did not get upset on the receiving end of mortar fire during Cast Lead
i doubt i will here :)
Besides what would you do without somebody representing our point of view here ,
agree with each other all the time?
“Antisemitism is not an element on the periodic table you putz.”
Wish I had said that! Of course, if I did, I would probably leave out the part about the periodic table.
The power dynamic is a result ofwhich nationalism is on top for the moment, which now is Zionism though fallen dramatically in world opinion still well armed.
That is seperate from the fat that there are competing nationalisms. a very small percent of people involved in this issue are not following one or the other current.
Phil notes that the Book of Esther ends with mass murder of Persians. OlegR calls this “a perversion of the story itself.” Who’s right? Check the text. From Ch. 9 of the Book of Esther (King James version):
If, as Oleg says, “this part of the story throughout history has been widely used by antisemites to accuse Jews of being revengeful people with genocidal tendencies,” it’s not hard to see why…
The point for this whole charade is to make sure Iran gets more and more
political and diplomatic pressure to cease their nuclear program.
I thought it was to deflect attention from the hundreds of nuclear warheads that the bellicose Israelis already possess and the fact that Israel refuses to put any of its facilities under the IAEA inspection regime or sign-on to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Netanyahu is threatening war, wants the US to threaten war. You may want to be very charitable towards Netanyahu and believe that the *real* motive is to increase diplomatic pressure, but you can’t blame other people for calling him out on what he plainly said.
I think the story of Esther speaks for itself–loud and clear. See Gilad’s comment, first above. You say?
Wrong OlegR.
From the Jerusalem Post:
Netanyahu said:
“Then, too they wanted to wipe us out[...]“.
Not Phil Weiss. Who was he referring to by “THEY”?
Why in the same speech did Netanyahu make:
Phil doesn’t have the fill in the blanks when JP does so just fine. There is no room for interpretation. Bibi wasn’t being subtle.
And there is NOTHING antisemitic about pointing out what Netanyahu is doing.
Pointing it out does not mean the criticizer (in this case, Phil) is legitimizing the actual idea that Netanyahu is making.
That was my original point.
Instead of accusing Netanyahu of being antisemitic for using Judaism to fear-monger and war-monger, you accuse Phil of pointing out what Netanyahu is doing.
I suspect you think the Jerusalem Post is now antisemitic as well?
link to jpost.com
Reuters must be antisemitic too for running the same story:
link to blogs.reuters.com
Oh and the DailyMail:
link to dailymail.co.uk
Look at their sub-header:
Haaretz:
link to haaretz.com
NYPost:
link to nypost.com
Phil did not say, as you claim, that he believes Jews are a “revengeful people with genocidal tendencies.”
You are putting words in his mouth in the most absurd way. Even for a Zionist, your mendacity is exceptional.
tokyobk
When did the Palestinian people have a mightier army than the Zionist settlers who usurped them?
“this part of the story throughout history has been widely used by antisemites to accuse Jews of being revengeful people with genocidal tendencies”.
The genocidal tendencies in Purim’s story are pretty indisputable with the slaying of 75000 + people, where today’s equivalent would be 2.25 million Persians.
So Oleg must be taking umbrage with epithet of revengeful.
So what did ancient Jews do or didn’t do in the Book of Esher that shows them to be forgiving rather than revengeful?
Would the bible passage that they “but on the spoil laid they not their hand” (didn’t rob the corpses) show that they were not, in fact at all revengeful?
Am I understanding it correctly??
Would the bible passage that they . . . (didn’t rob the corpses) show that they were not, in fact at all revengeful?
No. In fact, Rashi’s commentary on Esther 9:10 stresses that they were simply afraid of the King: “but on the spoil they did not lay their hands: so that the king should not cast an envious eye on their money.”
What do you mean when you ask Phil, “(are)you sure you want to go that way?”
HOW was the Purim story used as classic propaganda and blood libels?
link to sweetliberty.org
link to revisionistreview.blogspot.com
link to maskofzion.com
Well here are recent examples.
If you know Russian i will direct you to other sites as well.
HOW was the Purim story used as classic propaganda and blood libels?
The Scroll of Esther (3:1) identifies Haman as the descendent of Agag, King of Amalek. So he was a subject of the mitzvah to kill Amalek. Nowadays Orthodox Rabbis usually invoke the commandment to justify killing just about any perceived enemy of the Jewish people. Here is a recent example from an Israeli Orthodox family magazine that was highlighted at Tikun Olam:
link to richardsilverstein.com
what I really don’t get is that Persia is the ONE country in the entire world that has done the most for Jewish people for the longest time — all of their existence.
David Plotz wrote in Slate mag. that the message of Esther was that culture should respect diversity, though, Plotz said, Jews will always be a people separate and apart. The problem with the first part of Plotz’s statement is that, as the Cyrus Cylinder demonstrates, Persia was the first and premier exemplar of respect for diversity.
In tandem with the fact, as Saman Anderlini stated at Occupy AIPAC, that mention of Persia has been scrubbed from textbooks in US taxpayer schools suggests to me that Bibi — and Esther– have in mind culture-cide. In a Sept 12 2002 committee meeting in US Congress, Bibi told Dan Burton’s committee: “Iran has thousands of satellite dishes. We should bombard Iran’s young people with “Beverly Hills 90210″ . . . Make Iran’s young people want nice clothes and swimming pools and big houses. That’s subversive.” Indeed it is subversive, Bibi; you seek to turn Iran’s culture into Israel’s culture. I think that would be a shame.
Bombarding people with Beverly Hill 90210 is a special kind of torture. But Netanyahu, like all good politicians, knows his audience. Israeli culture is not the capitalist wet dream Netanyahu describes, and when Netanyahu tried to push through American-style economic reforms as Finance Minister, they were not very popular.
That said, I am sure every country in the Middle East would be happy to experience some of the economic prosperity and entrepreneurial spirit that exists in Israel right now. Peres’s New Middle East need not be a perpetual pipe dream; and Israel at peace with its neighbors would undoubtedly share the knowledge.
“The Purim story was used for centuries in classic antisemitic propaganda
and blood libels.”
LMAO. Why do I get the feeling that if Phil mentioned Mad Magazine or the movie “Dude, Where’s My Car?” in the context of the Palestinian issue, that either Oleg or hoppy would soon chime in with warnings about how they were “used for centuries in classic antisemitic propaganda and blood libels”???
Concern trolling is an artform among the Zionists. LOL.
You sure you want to go that way Phil ?
that’s one question. another question might be why so many zionists insist on conducting themselves in a manner that mirrors classic anti-semitic propaganda.
marc b, you are not suppose to notice. If you trace any group or state’s own version of their or its history, how often do you meet an objective account, and how often, a piece of pure self-congratulatory and/or self-pitying propaganda designed as comfort pillow? The notion seems to be don’t give your enemies any evidence at all that they may have some truth on their side. This, of course, is the recipe for why we’ve had so many wars through the ages. Each side, of course, always thinks it is totally innocent, hence deservedly righteous.
I don’t think we are totally innocent ,
a lot of Israelis don’t think that either.
But
we do not think we are totally guilty as well, not by a long shot.
“…The Purim story was used for centuries in classic antisemitic propaganda
and blood libels…
Really! Well it seems you don’t mind your Christian Zionist friends using it. A bit hypocritical of you I’d say.
link to jewsonfirst.org
It does make me wonder — why did Bibi give Obama a copy of the book?
/Christian Zionist friends/
I don’t have Christian Zionist friends.
“The investigation verifies the claim of the residents of Kiryat Arba that Goldstein acted to forestall a massacre.”
I call bullshit. No such thing was written in the Shamgar report.
link to mfa.gov.il
“the big surprise is that he hasn’t already started a world war by sending-in Mossad agents with stolen US passports to assassinate Ahmadinejad.”
No. It’s not a big surprise.
I call bullshit. No such thing was written in the Shamgar report.
link to mfa.gov.il
You illiterate hasbrats are really fun to watch. You supplied a link to an MFA website which explicitly states that it is only supplies extracts: a translation of the introduction of the report, the conclusions from chapters 8, and the recommendations from Chapter 9. So it can’t be used to disprove independent reports about the contents of the other chapters of the full commission report.
Let’s read the Arutz Sheva article again. It is quoting the Jerusalem Post article that informed its readers about the remarks in question and said they were from the heretofore uncited portions of the blue-ribbon panel report in 1994. The Israel National News article said:
FYI, the unclassified portions of the report were not published. Dr. Simons relates that he was given quite a run-around before he was finally allowed to study the contents in the State Archives facility. Try reading the material in this link:
*A Study Of The Findings Of The Shamgar Commission
Gaining access to the archival material
link to chaimsimons.net
Whatever. No one disputes that Baruch Goldstein had and has, regrettably, his share of extremist supporters in places like Kiryat Arba. One is too much. It is beyond question that what he did was overwhelmingly condemned by the worldwide Jewish community. One cannot say the same for the many Hamas terror attacks that have taken place over the last two decades, which have had mainstream Palestinian support.
One cannot say the same for the many Hamas terror attacks that have taken place over the last two decades, which have had mainstream Palestinian support.
Correction: Judge Goldstone’s report cited Hamas rocket and missile attacks as examples of terrorism that are subject to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court.
The Government of Palestine had already accepted the jurisdiction of the Court – for the purpose of identifying, prosecuting and judging the authors and accomplices of acts committed on the territory of Palestine since 1 July 2002 – without any exceptions or reservations. — See Declaration of the Palestinian National Authority recognizing the Jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, executed for the Government of Palestine by Ali Khashan, Minister of Justice, January 21, 2009. link to uclalawforum.com
So it’s actually Israel that is shreying about terrorism everywhere, except where it really counts.
“So it can’t be used to disprove independent reports about the contents of the other chapters of the full commission report.”
It is up to you to provide a complete citation for what seems to be an outright lie. Can you provide it? I don’t think so.
“One cannot say the same for the many Hamas terror attacks that have taken place over the last two decades, which have had mainstream Palestinian support.”
Whatever. The worldwide Jewish community is not under an inhumane multi-generational terror, murder, siege and oppression, as are the Palestinians. In fact, included in the “worldwide Jewish community” are the perpetrators, aiders and abettors of the terror, murder, siege and oppression against the Palestinians and too few who would condemn it and work against it.
“The Government of Palestine had already accepted the jurisdiction of the Court – for the purpose of identifying, prosecuting and judging the authors and accomplices of acts committed on the territory of Palestine since 1 July 2002 – without any exceptions or reservations. — See Declaration of the Palestinian National Authority recognizing the Jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, executed for the Government of Palestine by Ali Khashan, Minister of Justice, January 21, 2009. link to uclalawforum.com
So it’s actually Israel that is shreying about terrorism everywhere, except where it really counts.”
Excuse me for laughing. Let me know when the ICC prosecutes their first Palestinian terrorist.
It is up to you to provide a complete citation for what seems to be an outright lie.
I have supplied verbatim quotes from an eye witness, Haggai Segal, who had read the report. His article was printed by the publishers and editors of the Jerusalem Post and backed-up by another eye witness Chaim Simons.
So far, you hasbrats have produced zero evidence that these two and the JPost were publishing an “outright lie” about the unpublished portions of the confidential state report. I’m only replying because it’s so much fun to watch a tag team this big squirm and bluster about disreputable settler nut cases;-)
Excuse me for laughing. Let me know when the ICC prosecutes their first Palestinian terrorist.
He who laughs last, laughs best. For example, Côte d’Ivoire lodged, via a note verbale, a declaration dated 18 April 2003 accepting the exercise of the jurisdiction of the Court under Article 12, paragraph 3. link to icc-cpi.int
On February 22, 2012 the Pre-Trial Chamber issued its third authorization decision permitting the Prosecutor to proceed with an independent investigation of events in the Republic of Côte d’Ivoire on the basis of the old 2003 Declaration. The legal community is already grumbling for an explanation as to why the Prosecutor hasn’t obtained a determination from the Pre-Trial Chamber on the situation in Palestine, e.g. link to humanrightsdoctorate.blogspot.com
Here is the draft resolution that the state of Palestine co-sponsored calling for the Goldstone report to be forwarded to the ICC. link to un.org
Here is a link, which includes the petitions from various Israeli and Zionist Lobbying groups that have asked the Prosecutor not to take the case. Most were based upon the (now moot) argument that Palestine is not recognized as a state by the UN or any of its specialized agencies – like UNESCO. Note that the exhibit from the Arab League included several treaties between ICC member states on extradition for acts of terrorism and diplomatic immunity with the third state of Palestine. The Court is required to honor those treaties in accordance with Article 98 of the Rome Statute. All UNESCO member states are invited to become parties to the Vienna Conventions on the Law of Treaties and Diplomatic Relations. Most scholars agree that a state, for the purposes of Article 98, must also be considered a state for the purposes of Article 12(3).
link to icc-cpi.int
In the August 2011 annual report before the UNESCO vote, the Prosecutor advised
link to unispal.un.org
He subsequently made public statements to the effect that his office was following events related to the Palestinian UN bid and would react accordingly. http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1061595–palestinians-could-pursue-war-crimes-charges-without-full-statehood-icc-prosecutor
“/Christian Zionist friends/
I don’t have Christian Zionist friends.”
Why not? As far as I can tell, you were made for each other.
OK not friends eh! — maybe business associates a better word? — who help bring in the $$$?
Hagee and other evangelical leaders plan to activate hundreds of congregations across the country — many of which boast tens of thousands of members — to flood congressional inboxes with e-mails at the touch of a button.
This is pure fantasy, promulgated mainly by Jews. John Hagee – whose church is an easy drive from my home – has very little influence in Christian congregations across the country, whether Protestant or Catholic. The guy is a philosemitic nutcase, fixated on ancient Hebrew texts.
Thinking about it — does anyone know of a “high traffic” blog or even news site that specifically focuses on Christian Zionism and Zionists? On Pat Robertson’s page he doesn’t even mention Israel?
link to patrobertson.com
link to cbn.com
Advice: Don’t go to these sites unless you really have to.
Have many blogs, community newspapers, news sites etc. etc. etc. etc. can we say specifically focus on Jewish and Israel issues?
The Purim story was used for centuries in classic antisemitic propaganda
and blood libels.
LOL! The blue-ribbon Shamgar Commission’s report on its investigation of the Purim massacre in Hebron employed a blood libel. The report claimed that Dr. Goldstein’s act was not an unprovoked act of violence, but a pre-emptive strike against a looming Arab pogrom of the Jewish population of Hebron. It failed to demonstrate that any of the victims were connected with any conspiracy, but nonetheless concluded:
Most Gentiles today have never heard of Purim; much less the nutcases and politicians who invoke it on a routine basis to admonish us to rise up and destroy the latest pseudo-Amalek.
In any event, there’s no danger of blood libel in the case of notorious warmongers like Netanyahu. To be perfectly honest, the big surprise is that he hasn’t already started a world war by sending-in Mossad agents with stolen US passports to assassinate Ahmadinejad.
So long as Israelis are behaving irrationally en mass we certainly have a responsibility to call attention to their aberrant behavior, e.g.:
*Sheikh Jarrah Jews praise Baruch Goldstein on Purim
*White Shirts in Jerusalem cry ‘Butcher the Arabs’
“The investigation verifies the claim of the residents of Kiryat Arba that Goldstein acted to forestall a massacre.”
A link please to this quote in the official report because so far i could
only find it on a few ultra nut right wing settler blogs , they don’t provide
any links either.
Ah and here on mondoweiss where you appear to routinely use it in arguments.
Damaging to your credibility Hostage.
I shell have to pay closer attention to your links.
Here are EXCERPTS FROM THE REPORT on official Mof site
link to mfa.gov.il
“Chapter 10. Epilogue
The massacre at the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron was a base and murderous act, in which innocent people bending in prayer to their maker were killed. It is an unforgivable act, which caused inconsolable grief to the families of the fallen and injured victims, several of whom were permanently disabled.
The massacre was one of the harshest expressions of the Jewish- Arab conflict.
We were asked to investigate the massacre and to determine findings and draw conclusions regarding the circumstances related to it. Thus, in our investigation, we covered the circumstances surrounding the massacre and its results, and we also dealt with certain general issues which, while not directly related to the massacre, were part of the circumstances indirectly related to the event. We discussed these issues in an effort to remove every obstacle and impediment to, and to assist in the maintenance of, the just administration of government.
We presented the lessons which must be learnt from this tragic incident so that, as far as possible, the repetition of criminal acts such as these can be prevented. We made a series of recommendations meant to assist in returning things to normal both in the Tomb of the Patriarchs in particular, and generally in Hebron.
Let us hope that our inquiry and our report will indeed contribute to that end.”
Ah and here on mondoweiss where you appear to routinely use it in arguments. Damaging to your credibility Hostage.
LOL! I’m aware that the MFA published sanitized excerpts, as the Arutz Sheva reported “The Shamgar Commission’s Report was only published in Hebrew, but to help facilitate the international media’s reporting on it, the Israeli Foreign Ministry translated selected excerpts.” link to israelnationalnews.com
You also must know that I actually did provide a link to the relevant quote from the Shamgar Commission’s report in the earlier comment that you mentioned. link to mondoweiss.net
It came from an article on the website of the late Dead Sea Scroll Scholar and President of Lehmann Trading Corporation, Manfred Lehmann, not from some settler nut case. Here is his biography and obituary: link to manfredlehmann.com
Dr. Lehmann was fluent in Hebrew and frequently testified before Congressional committees here in the US. He is a reliable enough source of information on the quote he supplied from the blue-ribbon report in his article at this link:
link to manfredlehmann.com
P.S. Here is a verbatim quote from the Arutz Sheva Israel National News article that I cited above:
/It came from an article on the website of the late Dead Sea Scroll Scholar and President of Lehmann Trading Corporation, Manfred Lehmann, not from some settler nut case. /
Yes i expected that you took it from that site.It popped up almost first on Google.
But it does not provide any links to the actual report either.Hebrew or otherwise.
So where the quote came from is still a mystery.
The reputation of the gentlemen in question
“Dead Sea Scroll Scholar and President of Lehmann Trading Corporation”
has no relevance to the issue.
You are quoting a source that provided no links to the primary document
or any links at all and state that he is reputable enough for you.
Obviously you are welcome to believe him if you want.
But like i said this
Undermines your own credibility
So basically “Arutz Sheva” which is a religious right wing channel
(Think righter then Fox news) quotes claims
by residents of Kiryat Arba aka (Religious nut cases
prone to conspiracy theories on which most ideological settlers look with discomfort )
claiming there is an An additional section, as yet uncited
which no one has ever seen anywhere.
Come on Hostage that’s evidence, be serious.
You got this one wrong , let it go and move on.
So where the quote came from is still a mystery. . . . Undermines your own credibility
B.S. OlegR, you’ve provided a link to an MFA website that only provides extracts – the introduction from chapter one and the conclusions from chapters eight and nine of the blue ribbon panel report. There is no link there to the full Hebrew text of the report.
I’ve provided readers with two citations to the Shamgar Commission’s report from individuals with earned PhDs who are both fluent in Hebrew. The independent articles by Manfred Lehmann and Chaim Simmons both say that the blue ribbon panel’s report verified the claim of the residents of Kiryat Arba that Goldstein was acting to head off a massacre.
FYI both Dr. Simmons and Arutz Sheva were relying on verbatim quotes taken from an article by Haggai Segal published in the Jerusalem Post entitled “A failure to inform”. Please note the quotation marks in the bolded section below and STFU about my credibility:
link to chaimsimons.net
Come on Hostage that’s evidence, be serious. You got this one wrong , let it go and move on
Why don’t you provide a link to the whole report of the Commission or provide a citation to a reliable source which says the articles from Lehmann, Simmons, Arutz Sheva, or the Jerusalem Post misrepresented the contents in question? The readers can independently verify everything that I’ve written about, but that isn’t the case with your claims that imply Dr. Lehmann was lying. That doesn’t help your credibility.
P.S. Dr. Simmons quoted Haggai Segal’s article, entitled “A failure to inform” which appeared in the Jerusalem Post on July 11, 1994, page 6.
So where the quote comes from is no great mystery. Ciao!
/B.S. OlegR, you’ve provided a link to an MFA website that only provides extracts – There is no link there to the full Hebrew text of the report./
True and i stated that fact when i provided the links.
/I’ve provided readers with two citations to the Shamgar Commission’s report from individuals with earned PhDs who are both fluent in Hebrew./
I am sorry i didn’t know that a PdD and a knowledge of Hebrew
add to the credibility of someones claims.
I guess that’s why Chomsky is so popular.(But let’s not go there)
“an article by Haggai Segal entitled “A failure to inform” appeared in the “Jerusalem Post” pointing out facts which the press conveniently omitted to report.”
Hagay Segal was part of the “Jewish Underground” in the 1980′s
he was convicted for acts of terrorism against Arabs and spent 2 years in jail.
He also was part of the management team of the before mentioned Arutz 7.
Somehow it’s hard for me to believe that you would consider anything he says
as truth under any other circumstances.He also did not provide proof .
And the source that quotes Hagay Segal that you have provided
chaimsimons.net is again a the collection of a Rabbi Living in
Kiryat Arba aka (Religious nut cases
prone to conspiracy theories on which most ideological settlers look with discomfort )
/Why don’t you provide a link to the whole report of the Commission or provide a citation to a reliable source which says the articles from Lehmann, Simmons, Arutz Sheva, or the Jerusalem Post misrepresented the contents in question? /
I am sorry you are the one that went that road by citing dubious
sources that provide no basis for their claims.
And you are the one that refuses to acknowledge your own mistake.
I believe that the burden of proof lies on you in this case.
I am merely showing our readers (if we actually have readers)
that so far your claims are unsubstantiated.
I don’t need to disprove every accusation that somebody makes
since i can be accused of anything.I only need to ask what’s the basis
of your claims.
If you are having trouble with Hebrew i am sure you have some Israeli
friends that can help you with that.
So please don’t tell me to STFU.
Get the readers a link to the full report and substantiate your claims.
So far as everyone can see you haven’t.
“You also must know that I actually did provide a link to the relevant quote from the Shamgar Commission’s report in the earlier comment that you mentioned. link to mondoweiss.net ”
Not good enough. Provide a direct link to a primary source (Hebrew is fine), not some claim made in some article by an extremist. Otherwise, there is little reason to believe you on this point.
Also let me know about any investigative reports released by the Palestinian Authority on the issue of Palestinian terrorism.
Get the readers a link to the full report and substantiate your claims.
I’ve already given the readers a link which explained that the full report was considered confidential, and that members of the public had to request access to study it in the State Archives facility. So the request for a link was rhetorical you dummy. link to chaimsimons.net
Somehow it’s hard for me to believe that you would consider anything he says as truth under any other circumstances.
LOL! You must be joking. Justice Meir Shamgar was the Attorney General who authored ‘The Observance of International Law in the Administered Territories’ , 1 Israel YB HR (1971) p. 262. It was one of the first attempts to rationalize the flagrantly illegal annexation of Jerusalem and the settlements in the Golan, Sinai, Gaza, and places in the West Bank – like Kiryat Araba. Why should anyone believe he didn’t include a blood libel in one of the confidential chapters of his report? He was a much bigger nut case than the other people you are complaining about.
Please drop the stick and step away from the dead horse, unless you can supply a published rebuttal from an independent source.
Somehow you’ve managed to use every ad homenim and genetic fallacy in the book, but you haven’t supplied a single published article or reliable source which challenges the veracity of the reports published in the Jerusalem Post, Arutz Sheva, and on Lehmann’s and Simon’s websites. So you are asking us to believe these are false reports that got past the editors at the JPost – and that they have somehow gone completely unchallenged, even by the Israeli government, for more than a decade. Naturally, we just have to take your word for all that.
Not good enough. Provide a direct link to a primary source (Hebrew is fine), not some claim made in some article by an extremist. Otherwise, there is little reason to believe you on this point.
Please see the multiple comments with links to Dr. Simon’s A STUDY OF THE FINDINGS OF THE SHAMGAR COMMISSION, Gaining access to the archival material.
The full report was confidential and individuals had to request access to study it in the State Archive facility. I appreciate that the hasbara brotherhood would like to invent a new rule which says that we can’t discuss reports here at MW that have been printed by the publishers and editors of the Jerusalem Post, but we both know that’s nonsense.
link to chaimsimons.net
Sorry, Hostage, I need a primary source. Chaim Simmons, like the others you’ve cited, is linked to Kiryat Arba, and has an obvious interest in claiming that a confidential part of the report which no one can see backs up the beliefs of Kiryat Arba residents. In the I-P conflict, where there is so much misinformation and falsehood on both sides, citing what amounts to a tertiary source with an obvious bias is just not credible.
You originally presented a quote, claiming it was taken from the Shamgar report – which you now admit is a lie. The quote you now provide cites settlers nutcases providing their interpretation of an unknown, uncited part of the Shamgar report.
“Why don’t you provide a link to the whole report of the Commission”
Na uh. That’s not how it works. Let’s say I accuse you of pedophilia. It’s not up to you to disprove it, but rather my obligation to provide sufficient evidence incriminating.
You have not provided an ounce of incriminating evidence.
Stop lying.
Chaim Simmons, like the others you’ve cited, is linked to Kiryat Arba, and has an obvious interest in claiming that a confidential part of the report which no one can see backs up the beliefs of Kiryat Arba residents.
Do you have evidence that Lehmann is linked to Kiryat Arba? Link please.
Hophmi, your request is like asking for a link to the classified material Sandy Berger tried to steal from the National Archives and Records Administration. Once again, you’ll just have to go to the Israeli State Archives and ask for access to whatever is available to the public like everyone else.
In the meantime, the rest of us here at Mondoweiss are free to discuss things that have been reported by multiple sources – without any rebuttals – including an article printed by the publishers and editors of the Jerusalem Post.
Chaim Simons has published his correspondence with the Israeli State Archives and Justice Shamgar and he has personally accessed the material in question – and the silence from his critics regarding the citation in question is deafening.
It’s obvious that neither you nor the Hasbara brotherhood can produce a published secondary or primary source from Google that so much as challenges the quotes and citations in any of the articles that I’ve cited. According to the Internet Archive, some of them have been online for nearly a decade now.
You originally presented a quote, claiming it was taken from the Shamgar report – which you now admit is a lie.
I originally cited Dr Lehmann, who supplied a verbatim quote from the Shamgar report. I don’t admit that he was lying. It is you hasbrats that keep implying that he is, but you’ve failed to producing any compelling evidence.
“Do you have evidence that Lehmann is linked to Kiryat Arba? Link please.”
Yeah. The guy had an “emotional” personal visit with Baruch Goldstein’s parents less than a year after the massacre. He’s an extremist.
link to manfredlehmann.com
“Hophmi, your request is like asking for a link to the classified material Sandy Berger tried to steal from the National Archives and Records Administration. Once again, you’ll just have to go to the Israeli State Archives and ask for access to whatever is available to the public like everyone else. ”
Again, tertiary sources who are totally biased are not considered credible by anyone, least of all in academia. Gimme a break.
“In the meantime, the rest of us here at Mondoweiss are free to discuss things that have been reported by multiple sources – without any rebuttals – including an article printed by the publishers and editors of the Jerusalem Post. ”
An article you haven’t furnished, other than as a citation of multiple biased tertiary sources.
“Chaim Simons has published his correspondence with the Israeli State Archives and Justice Shamgar and he has personally accessed the material in question – and the silence from his critics regarding the citation in question is deafening”
Uh-huh. Tertiary biased source. Not credible, Hostage. I’ll tell you what; I’ll make it even easier. Cite an UNBIASED tertiary source. How hard could that possibly be? Like, you know, someone NOT from a political community who thinks the Rabin assassination was a Shin Bet plot, LOL.
link to manfredlehmann.com
“It’s obvious that neither you nor the Hasbara brotherhood can produce a published secondary or primary source from Google that so much as challenges the quotes and citations in any of the articles that I’ve cited. ”
You’ve not cited anything worth discrediting, and you’ve not cited anything that qualifies as primary or secondary source. Why should I? Maybe you’re observing Purim and got so drunk that you can’t tell the difference between a credible argument and nonsense. If so, let me enlighten you:
Tertiary sources with demonstrated extreme bias are NOT credible. That’s NOT credible.
Primary and secondary sources with credibility are what we’re looking for here.
I doubt he will budge Hophmi,he will just keep repeating what he already said
over and over and loitering the thread with more and more
dubious sources and citations hoping that eventually the readers will
tire or maybe forget how it all started.
I guess this is his MO makes him look credible so people don’t call
his BS to often.
Again, tertiary sources who are totally biased are not considered credible by anyone, least of all in academia. Gimme a break.
Your link didn’t indicate that Lehmann was a tertiary source. He said that he visted Kiryat Arba and had obtained his own copy of the report:
You still haven’t provided any information to challenge the accuracy of the quoted material he supplied that would stand up in an academic environment, much less here at Mondoweiss.
An article you haven’t furnished, other than as a citation of multiple biased tertiary sources.
Even someone with your rudimentary intelligence can independently verify the contents of a Jerusalem Post article, given the date and page number, which I’ve already supplied. Do your own homework.
You’ve not cited anything worth discrediting,
Your entire argument is based upon ad hominem and genetic fallacies that wouldn’t be accepted in an academic setting, at the Jerusalem Post, or here at Mondoweiss. Even an extremist or a settler can accurately quote a report that he has obtained and read for himself. We are dealing with independent secondary sources who have published articles with identical views.
Thank you Hostage for illustrating the validity of my comment above to Hophmi so
fast.
It’s funny though that you an Anti Zionist would continuously wave and claim to be true part of a conspiracy theory (a silly one) by the the most right wing settlers and their supporters that there are in Israel (i mean really Kiryat Arba).
And do it just because what they claim in your eyes helps your cause
and ideology.
Normally you wouldn’t believe a single word from any of those sources
if they were claiming something that might make the Palestinians look bad.
And we the Zionists on this site (well i am at least i don’t know about the other guys)
are having to call your (and their) BS.
I just love this little irony.
Keep at it you have to lie only once to ruin all that credibility
you probably worked hard to establish on this site.
I guess this is his MO makes him look credible so people don’t call
his BS to often.
Correct. My MO is to quote third-party verifiable published sources and let readers decide for themselves. Your MO is to tag team with a name caller and deploy ad hominem, innuendo, and genetic fallacies. But none of you can find any published source that challenges these citations or quotations I supplied, despite the fact they’ve been out there for nearly two decades. Once again, the silence from the opposition is pretty deafening and speaks louder than whatever you’re saying on this particular subject.
It’s funny though that you an Anti Zionist would continuously wave and claim to be true part of a conspiracy theory (a silly one) by the the most right wing settlers and their supporters that there are in Israel (i mean really Kiryat Arba). And do it just because what they claim in your eyes helps your cause and ideology.
It’s ironic that your tag team has experienced such a dearth of published sources which support your Zionist ideology;-)
I’m simply repeating the fact that some Jews resorted to a using a blood libel against the victims to help excuse a Purim massacre of some Gentiles. That fact was amply demonstrated by the uncontested statements published by Lehmann, Simons, & Haggai Segal that were repeated in mainstream Israeli media outlets, like the Jerusalem Post.
Everyone knows that the state of Israel has published blue-ribbon commission reports which allege that there might have been a conspiracy to smuggle weapons along with items of food and humanitarian aid. The IDF used that as an excuse to launch deadly attacks on ships that everyone (now) knows were carrying harmless cargoes. link to turkel-committee.gov.il
Justice Shamgar was an Irgun terrorist who was captured and deported by the British. I have no doubt that he is an extremist who would include doubtful evidence of an Arab conspiracy in a confidential section of a report about an incident involving illegal settlers.
Even the Wikipedia article notes Shamgar and the report were criticized on that score:
8.8a “Those in charge of security at the Tomb were given no intelligence reports that an attack by a Jew against Moslem worshipers could be expected, particularly since intelligence reports warned of the opposite: an attack by Hamas. Therefore, there was concern about an attack by Arabs against Jews.”[31]
Critics of the commission have suggested that Shamgar’s judicial record has “consistently displayed his leniency toward the settlers, including those convicted of crimes against the Palestinians, but especially toward the soldiers who had fired at the Palestinians.”[32]
link to en.wikipedia.org
“You still haven’t provided any information to challenge the accuracy of the quoted material he supplied that would stand up in an academic environment, much less here at Mondoweiss.”
LOL. I am astounded that you would talk about what would stand up in an academic environment. Your source would not. And I say that as a former assistant editor of a law journal. Using a source like this to make a point like that would probably be enough to invalidate an entire article.
“Even someone with your rudimentary intelligence can independently verify the contents of a Jerusalem Post article, given the date and page number, which I’ve already supplied. Do your own homework.
Your claim, your homework. In this conflict, especially given the widespread misuse of sources, it’s up to you to find the source.
“Your entire argument is based upon ad hominem and genetic fallacies ”
None of it is based on that. It’s based on simple logic – a guy who subscribes to Barry Chamish conspiracy theories is not a credible source for what amounts to a self-serving statement about what appears in a confidential report.
“Even an extremist or a settler can accurately quote a report that he has obtained and read for himself.”
Sure he can. So now we’re trusting the self-serving statements of extremist settlers? Which do you accept and which do you not accept?
“We are dealing with independent secondary sources who have published articles with identical views.”
LOL. You’re dealing with two clearly biased extremists who cite to the same missing JPost article as a source and make the same unverifiable claim about a confidential report no one can see. These do not fit the academic definition of secondary independent sources that, without question, would not pass muster in a freshman history class, let alone a higher academic setting. I mean, really.
Your claim, your homework.
No it was cited by both Dr. Simons and the publishers of Arutz Shiva. Your genetic fallacy, your homework.
LOL. I am astounded that you would talk about what would stand up in an academic environment.
Of course you’re amazed. You usually waste your time here peddling unsourced Zionist talking points and bullying people. In an academic setting you can’t rely on ad homenim and genetic fallacies, to disprove the published claims and bibliographic evidence provided by two PhDs like Lehmann and Simons. You have to provide your own sourced evidence that disproves their claims and evidence. The proposition that many Jews have used blood libels and Purim to excuse violence against others is uncontroversial in academic circles. That’s why Princeton University Press published a work like Elliott Horowitz, “Reckless Rites: Purim and the Legacy of Jewish Violence” in the first place. link to press.princeton.edu
My point was that many Jews, including Lehmann, Simons, and Segal, have used blood libels and Purim to excuse acts of violence. In this case there is ample evidence that they have been widely reprinted in the Israeli mainstream media and on the Internet. Anyone who is familiar with Justice Shamgar’s benevolent published decisions and opinions on the IDF’s use of home demolitions, expropriations, human shields, human bargaining chips, torture, extrajudicial killings, and the de jure non-applicability of the customary humanitarian laws contained in the Geneva Conventions regarding hostage taking, murder, deportations, & etc. knows perfectly well that he’s the worst kind of extremist nut case who has also resorted to many blood libels against the Palestinian people in the past to justify the state policies of Israel. I cited one of those articles above.
“Even an extremist or a settler can accurately quote a report that he has obtained and read for himself.” Sure he can. So now we’re trusting the self-serving statements of extremist settlers? Which do you accept and which do you not accept?
The fact that traveling medieval Jewish merchants or pilgrims repeated legendary, fanciful, fantastic, folkloristic, and unreliable tales doesn’t prevent historians from accepting the eye witness accounts of those same individuals. If it did, there wouldn’t be any Jewish history as such.
You’re a lawyer. So you know perfectly well how to weigh evidence from a hostile or biased witness.
*The claims and bibliographic evidence have been widely repeated in the mainstream media and on the Internet since 1994.
*The Palestinian and Israeli critics who watched the televised Shamgar hearings and read the Shamgar report have not published any challenges to the validity of the particular quotes in question.
*Each of the three men explained that he had personally read or obtained a copy of the report.
*Each man repeated the same blood libel against the Palestinians.
You and the two other members of the tag team have not read the report (and in several cases ignored the actual sources cited in the linked articles themselves). You’ve resorted to bluster, ad homenim, and genetic fallacies – but you haven’t supplied a single scrap of published evidence that specifically supports your denials or these particular allegations of forgery or misattribution.
It sure is easy to get the correspondences wrong in these here metaphors.
Yesterday we had Bibi as Torquemada (and seemingly as Nazi) but bad old Mr. T was hard on all the Christians suspected/accused of being Jews or Muslims pretending to be Christians living in post-1492 Spain after the re-conquest (by the irredentists — and are the Israelis another gang of re-conquesting irredentists — and what has the ADA to say about that kind of dentistry?).
The Book of Esther’s historicity has often been doubted:
On the other hand, it is an undoubted historical fact that Cyrus the Great, the founder of the Persian Empire, allowed the Jews to return to Palestine from their Babylonian Exile, and that Cyrus’s program of religious toleration was continued by the later Persian emperors, most notably Darius the Great.
I have a hard time believing anything that happened before I was alive if there is complete lack of evidence. Historical and biblical. History is written by the victor and not the loser. I’ve been reading a lot about gnosis lately, so I’ll use an example involving that. Because so little material survived (and much of it was destroyed) we hardly knew anything about gnosis until the treasure trove of Nag Hammadi codices were dug up in 1945.
What we mostly knew about it came from what was written about Manichaeism. Manichaeism was suppressed but still had some devotees (the Bosnian Church was influenced by it). The majority of the history written about Manichaeism was from it’s critics. Religious scholars who spoke harshly about it and demonized Mani. This being the primary known history we had on gnosis until the Nag Hammadi discoveries. And we still will never know exactly what the Manichaeism take was because we cannot accept their critique as history at face value. Maybe that’s not the best example, but it’s what came to mind since I’m interested in it presently. If we cannot got modern events correct, then we have no clue how accurate our actual history is.
One of the things I read about the Babylonian exile and Cyrus freeing Jews was the emphasis on Jewish leaders. When a providence, country, nation, empire, etc. was conquered it wasn’t always customary to slaughter the people. It was more important to have the people surrender to the new rulers (with exceptions obviously.. I believe it was the Mongols they say who had a ‘population reduction’ quota which involved killing the leaders and 10 people per solider or something like that).
The old leaders were either executed, imprisoned, or exiled. Or all of the above. My research into this subject shows that the Jews in exile were wealthy, elite, and powerful leaders. It seems that people are under the impression that all or most of the Jews were exiled from their country, but that is not what the actual history says. What happened was akin to exiling modern day Neocon/Zionist politicians and millionaires after being conquered by Mexico or something. The reason why there were Rabbis and religious leaders is because they were the leaders and the government in those times. So when some ultra-Orthdox settler says that the war in Iraq was revenge for Babylonian captivity, it just makes them sound even more insane.
“I have a hard time believing anything that happened before I was alive if there is complete lack of evidence.”
Thanks, Charon! I feel lots better now. It’s good to know I’m not the only one who ain’t got no “historical memory”
Anyway, we should keep Erasmus’ answer to St. Thomas Aquinas in mind. You remember, Aquinas asked him: “Rasmus, whas’ yo historical reference?”
“”Then, too they wanted to wipe us out,” Netanyahu reportedly told Obama in giving him the Bible story that ends with mass-murder of Persians.”
Except that the genocidalist was Haman, and the story is that the Jews stood up to their enemies. Stood up. The word massacre does not appear in relation to the Jews standing up to their enemies. Are you against Jews standing up to their enemies?
But it’s very like you to point stuff like this out (predictable, really), and ignore the main themes of the story, because saying nasty things about Jewish history is part of your MO. Perhaps you would have been happier if Haman triumphed and the Jews assimilated into the Persian empire of the time.
“Perhaps you would have been happier if Haman triumphed and the Jews assimilated into the Persian empire of the time.”
You don’t think you would be happier if that had happened, Hophmi? You wouldn’t have to get all uptight and blather all the time, and instead of depleting Mondoweiss, you could get a job enriching uranium.
Careful, Mooser. You might end up agreeing with me that parents who make their children maintain [insert ethnic minority]-ness instead of letting them assimilate are guilty of child abuse.
Then you’ll get called a racist as well as an anti-Semite.
“Careful, Mooser. You might end up agreeing with me that parents who make their children maintain [insert ethnic minority]-ness instead of letting them assimilate are guilty of child abuse.”
You don’t give the guy enough credit. I have no doubt that Hophmi was capable of sinking to this level of ethical and moral dross entirely on his own. Why I bet it wasn’t even hard for him. Just doin, as the song says, what comes naturally.
“Perhaps you would have been happier if Haman triumphed and the Jews assimilated into the Persian empire of the time.”
We have really got to get mp3 commenting around here. That line is just not as effective with out all the weeping and the histrionics which needs must accompany it.
No, video would be better. It’s even more effective when you can see Hophmi, in his housecoat and slippers, running out into the street with his apron over his head, hysterically screaming “Help, they all hate me and love the Persians!”
“Except that the genocidalist was Haman, and the story is that the Jews stood up to their enemies. Stood up. The word massacre does not appear in relation to the Jews standing up to their enemies. Are you against Jews standing up to their enemies? ”
LMAO. So you deny that in this story, seventy-five thousand Persians were killed? Do you not see a problem with a paranoiac at the head of a nuclear-armed state (that would be Netanyahoo), who has, for years, been ceaselessly licking his lips at the chance to attack Persians, using an ancient revenge-fantasy fairytale in the context of modern geo-politics??
“But it’s very like you to point stuff like this out (predictable, really), and ignore the main themes of the story, because saying nasty things about Jewish history is part of your MO. ”
What he is doing here is paying attention to the theme of the story and noting that it is pathological, insane, crazy, nutty, dangerous and stupid for Netanyahoo to be releasing that theme loose into the context of the modern world. Modern Iranians should not have to die because you and Netanyahoo have the ludicrous notion that this ancient version of “Inglourious Basterds” has anything to say in the modern world and are too busy stroking your paranoia and victim complexes to actually used for brains.
“Perhaps you would have been happier if Haman triumphed and the Jews assimilated into the Persian empire of the time.”
Perhaps Phil would have been happier if the Emperor had won and Luke, Leia and the rest of the rebellion had fallen to Darth Vader and the Galactic Empire.
I like that phrase “ancient revenge-fantasy fairytale”. It also fits my least favorite book in the New Testament: the Apocalypse aka Revelation., so beloved of the evangelical rapturists.
lysias,
I agree regarding Revelation, although “chemically-induced hallucinogenic nightmare” might be more accurate.
“LMAO. So you deny that in this story, seventy-five thousand Persians were killed? ”
No, not at all. I’m just not sure what defines it as a massacre. I think it sounds more like a war. The Megillah also says the Jews took none of the spoils from those who were killed.
“Do you not see a problem with a paranoiac at the head of a nuclear-armed state (that would be Netanyahoo), who has, for years, been ceaselessly licking his lips at the chance to attack Persians, using an ancient revenge-fantasy fairytale in the context of modern geo-politics?? ”
Not sure what this has to do with Purim. Israel does not worry about Iran because of Haman. Israel worries about Iran because Iranian leaders constantly talk of Israel as “a cancer” and so on, and because Iran is led by a bunch of religious fanatics.
“Modern Iranians should not have to die because you and Netanyahoo have the ludicrous notion that this ancient version of “Inglourious Basterds” has anything to say in the modern world and are too busy stroking your paranoia and victim complexes to actually used for brains. ”
Eh? I’m not sure what you’re talking about here. If modern Iranians die, it will be because their leaders have made bad choices.
“Perhaps Phil would have been happier if the Emperor had won and Luke, Leia and the rest of the rebellion had fallen to Darth Vader and the Galactic Empire.”
That may well be true. I mean, if Phil were Darth Vader, he could set whatever pro-Palestinian policies he wanted for the galaxy. There’s always that strain of anti-democratic thinking in radical political movements, where the disenchantment is with the outcomes rather than the procedures. Always tempting to dictate those outcomes rather than working for them democratically.
Israel does not worry about Iran because of Haman. Israel worries about Iran because Iranian leaders constantly talk of Israel as “a cancer” and so on, and because Iran is led by a bunch of religious fanatics. . . . . If modern Iranians die, it will be because their leaders have made bad choices.
I think it’s really AIPAC and Bibi who you should blame:
Haaretz poll: Most of the public opposes an Israeli strike on Iran
link to haaretz.com
Yes, another reason why I believe an attack is unlikely. Though, once again, the poll was about the backing of the United States, not the attack itself. Most Israeli oppose an attack without US backing.
>> If modern Iranians die, it will be because their leaders have made bad choices.
So…if modern Israelis are die, it will be because their leaders have made bad choices. Well, I must say, that’s a refreshing change from always blaming everyone but their leaders.
“I’m just not sure what defines it as a massacre. I think it sounds more like a war.”
Of course you do. That seems to be your M.O. in excusing massacres that you favor.
“The Megillah also says the Jews took none of the spoils from those who were killed.”
LOL. Of course, it’s a Jewish myth. What else would you expect?
“Not sure what this has to do with Purim. ”
Because the delusional psychopath that is PM of Israel is making a comparison between modern geopolitics and a fairy story that results in a massive slaughter of those which the story portrays as enemies of the Jews. It doesn’t take a genius to put that together with his twisted messiah complex and his family’s dysfunctions to fear that this idiot is going to start a war because the Iranians want to give their cancer patients radiation treatment.
“I’m not sure what you’re talking about here.”
I’m talking about the fact that perhaps the leader of the Israeli state should actually use common sense and logic in approaching this situation and not base his action on his knee-jerk paranoia fed by a cultural victim complex, fed by this ancient myth.
“If modern Iranians die, it will be because their leaders have made bad choices.”
Yeah, it’s never the Israelis’ responsibility. Shoot and cry, shoot and cry, bomb and cry, kill and cry. You’re disgusting.
“That may well be true. I mean, if Phil were Darth Vader…”
What?? No. What I meant was that you complaining about whether Phil would have been happier if the fiction in Esther had been written differently makes as much sense as wondering if Phil would be happier is Star Wars would have been written differently. They’re myths, fictions, stories, made-up fairy tales. If one wants to discuss the themes of the stories, great. That’s a proper use for literature. But when one gets bent out of shape because of someone else’s view of the protagonists is a fiction, as you did here, that is tipping into the realm of mental illness.
“Of course you do. That seems to be your M.O. in excusing massacres that you favor.
“The Megillah also says the Jews took none of the spoils from those who were killed.”
LOL. Of course, it’s a Jewish myth. What else would you expect? ”
Right, so you want to believe the worst about Jews and reject the positive when they appear in the same story.
In any event, there is no evidence that any massacre took place.
“Because the delusional psychopath that is PM of Israel is making a comparison between modern geopolitics and a fairy story that results in a massive slaughter of those which the story portrays as enemies of the Jews.”
I don’t think preaching self-defense is the same as saying a massacre should be committed. As I said above, I know very few people who interpret the Megillah as an instruction to massacre one’s enemies. Indeed, as I pointed out before, in many modern translations of the Megillah, the verse speaking of the killing of the enemies of the Jews isn’t even translated.
“They’re myths, fictions, stories, made-up fairy tales. If one wants to discuss the themes of the stories, great. That’s a proper use for literature. But when one gets bent out of shape because of someone else’s view of the protagonists is a fiction, as you did here, that is tipping into the realm of mental illness.”
Phil is treating the story as true so he can make a point about how the Jews slaughter people as part of their religion. That’s been his MO before – to point out the problems with Judaism as a religion; thus his promotion of Jeff Blankfort, his promotion of Matthew Taylor’s anti-circumcision militancy, his promotion of Israel Shahak, and so on, and so on.
Phil is treating the story as true so he can make a point about how the Jews slaughter people as part of their religion.
No, Netanyahu is treating the story as true and using it as an illustration of Iran’s current policies. If you have a beef with the story of Esther being brought into the discussion then take it up with Bibi, not Phil. Bibi’s the one that brought a fable that includes the killing of multitudes into present day politics.
I know very few people who interpret the Megillah as an instruction to massacre one’s enemies.
Same here, but the ones that do include high ranking Israeli government officials like Danny Danon and members of the Rabbinate, e.g. link to richardsilverstein.com
“Right, so you want to believe the worst about Jews and reject the positive when they appear in the same story.”
Nope. Nice try, hater. (Although it is interesting that you find “we killed them, but didn’t take their stuff” to be a “positive.”)
“In any event, there is no evidence that any massacre took place.”
Of course not. It’s a myth, a fairy tale. And within the myth, it appears that 75,000 Persians were killed in one day and no Jews were that this was supposed to be a massacre. (But, of course, back then, such massacres were acceptable, but not to us moderns. Which explains why you try so hard…)
“I don’t think preaching self-defense is the same as saying a massacre should be committed.”
No one’s preaching self-defense. Netanyahoo is talking about an attack on Iran without Iran attack Israel. That’s not self-defense. That’s (in part) what they hung the Germans for at Nuremberg.
“I know very few people who interpret the Megillah as an instruction to massacre one’s enemies.”
You don’t even get the point, do you? Sheesh.
“Phil is treating the story as true so he can make a point about how the Jews slaughter people as part of their religion.”
No, he isn’t. He called it a “bible story” not “history.”
“That’s been his MO before – to point out the problems with Judaism as a religion”
So what? I get that you believe that Judaism should be beyond criticism, but that’s dopey. There are many, many things about it that should be criticized — that scream out to be criticized. It’s a human invention; of course it’s worthy of criticism. That you decide to, in essence, excise that portion of your brain which is responsible for rational thought when it comes to this subject, does not mean that anyone else is wrong if they choose not to do so.
Perhaps you would have been happier if Haman triumphed and the Jews assimilated into the Persian empire of the time.
There are plenty of scholars who think that the Pharisees (Farsi?) were assimilated to Persian religious customs. They propose that when Cyrus allowed them to returned from the exile, they simply incorporated their favorite Persian doctrines, to the extent that they could, when they were redacting the ancient scriptures.
Its pretty hard not to notice the similarities between the religious obsessions of ancient Iranian and Iraqis with female impurity, e.g. link to books.google.com
After all, in the Iron Age the Jewish prophetess Deborah was supposedly judging all of Israel. You’d never know that from listening to the Hardei idiots that spit on little girls or set-up sex segregated streets and buses. The same goes for the ideas about racial purity and intermarriage. The Princes of the Tribe of Judah (Boaz?) were singled out as prime offenders.
The writings of Josephus with regard to Vespasian indicate that the ancient Jews did not limit the interpretation of the divine succession (the scepter departing Judah, Genesis 49:10) to the sons of David or the Israelites alone, e.g. link to mondoweiss.net
So some viewed Cyrus, the Maccabees, Vespasian, and Bar Kokhba as Messiahs that would usher in an age of religious reforms or changes. It is possible that the Book of Ruth was originally intended as anti-Judean propaganda and that it was countered by the subsequent introduction of the non-biblical doctrine of conversion. It certainly is at odds with the practices attributed to Ezra and Nehemiah.
RE: “Then, too they wanted to wipe us out,” Netanyahu reportedly told Obama in giving him the Bible story that ends with mass-murder of Persians.
RABBI MICHAEL KNOPH, 3/04/12:
ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to haaretz.com
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“But it’s very like you to point stuff like this out (predictable, really), and ignore the main themes of the story, because saying nasty things about Jewish history is part of your MO. Perhaps you would have been happier if Haman triumphed and the Jews assimilated into the Persian empire of the time.”
Watch out, Charon. Sounds to me like he’s working himself up to asking for a divorce.
So who plays the role of comely Esther? Rachel Abrams? Pamela Gellner? Would king Ahaseurus be impressed?
By the way, I read an explanation that the enemies of Jews that king allowed to be slaughtered were “Amelek”, not Persian, and most probably, Armenian. True Amelek were supposed to be dead before the story took place.
Aman was supposedly from the seed of Amalek
thus explaining his hostility to the Jews.
“Aman was supposedly from the seed of Amalek
thus explaining his hostility to the Jews.”
That sentence is sheer insanity, unless it is meant in a way directly analogous to “Anakin Skywalker had a high midichlorian count, thus explain his mastery of the Force.”
When are you going to stop pretending like you’re living in mythology, anyway? It frustrates me when somebody uses cobbled together mythology to justify ethnic cleansing. It reminds me of some other state whose name I’m not allowed to remember…
hear hear
I am just stressing that Haman was not a Persian.
And of course we agree that even religious authorities do not view this as a historical account. At least, most religious authorities. Some religious nuts celebrate Purim by spitting at Armenians. Recently Israel sold more than billion dollars worth of advanced weapons to opponents of Armenians.
/Some religious nuts celebrate Purim by spitting at Armenians./
I think you are referring to some Ultra Orthodox nutters in Jerusalem.
They are spitting on Armenian priests (or just priests i don’t think that the nationality was mentioned in our press).
The accent here is on the word priest.One of those priests recently
refused to turn the other cheek and gave the idiot a thorough beating.
Which i might add in no case can be viewed as an act of antisemitism.
Furthermore those religious nutters are from the Anti Zionist
hug Ahmedinajad type i believe.
/Recently Israel sold more than billion dollars worth of advanced weapons to opponents of Armenians./
I guess Armenians didn’t have enough money then.
Armenians had money to buy Israeli weapons several years ago, and Israeli instructors for it’s military, and Foreign Minister fluent in Hebrew. They believed for a short while that this means that they could have border skirmish with Russia and that the West would come to their defence. More fool they.
RE: “Book of Esther given to Obama by Bibi Netanyahu: not so hidden message, Esther stopped plan to kill Jews- Obama should be Esther, Bomb Iran,” ~ Michael Ratner (to Phil)
SPEAKING OF ESTHER: Bride Flight, 2011, R, 130 minutes
Set in the 1950s, this lush epic centers on Ada, Marjorie and Esther, Dutch brides-to-be flying to New Zealand to take up married life. On the trip, they form a bond and meet a dashing cowboy who alters their lives in unseen ways.
Director: Ben Sombogaart
Language: Dutch (English subtitles)
Netflix Availability: Streaming, DVD and Blu-ray
NETFLIX LISTING – link to movies.netflix.com
Bride Flight, Official US Trailer (VIDEO, 2:01) – link to youtube.com
I would like to address other people like myself who value the Jewish scriptures: for me the story about Esther is at least partly traumatic.
In the story, Haman wants to hang many or all Jews, which is very gruesome. And then he himself is hanged, which is very gruesome. And then there is apparently a command for the Jewish people to completely genocide the Amalekites. In fact, God punishes Saul because he didn’t kill all the Amalekites.
I am happy that the Jewish people escaped genocide and it is liberating that Esther helped and caused their liberation. But the story is also traumatic for me because of the awful killing of Haman, which in my view was at least partly bad to a big extent because he didn’t actually commit the genocide he wanted to.
I mean, if someone is a really bad person and wants “cruel and unusual” things, it still seems sad to me if the cruel and unusual things he wants happen to him, especially if he didn’t commit them as he wanted.
I repeat that I say this while I myself value the Jewish scriptures as they appear generally to be moral and uplifting writings.
I could compare it a good parent telling his kids to beat up all of the bad kids and punishing them if they don’t, and when one of the bad kids starts to try to beat up the good kids he gets beat up himself. Except that completely killing an ethnicity seems alot worse to me than just beating kids up.
Lord have mercy.
After posting this I read that 75000 Persians were killed as a result of this event in the Bible?
There was no Mordechai and no Esther, and they had no enemy Haman. There was only Marduk and Ishtar and their rival ‘Uman, gods in the ancient Babylonian pantheon whose myths were appropriated, Judaized and turn into “historical” legends by Babylonian Jews in the post exilic period, in a process of evolution and borrowing that is normal between different religious traditions. Anyone who thinks these stories are real, and justify launching a war on Iran, is insane and should not be trusted with a butter knife, never mind a nuclear arsenal.
Yes, unfortunately Bibi skipped the lessons from the Pedagogic Center of the Jewish Agency for Israel. The Jewish-Zionist educators actually do point out that Esther’s Hebrew name was Hadassah (Myrtle), and that her Persian name “”ester” (Esther) was known as the goddess of fertility in practically the entire ancient world of the Fertile Crescent (Babylon, Akkadia, Mesopotamia, Assyria, Syria, Phoenicia and the Land of Israel).” JAFI goes on to explain: “The name Mordecai is actually a variation of the name of the city god of Babylon; this being only one of the many written forms of the name “Marduk” in Cuneiform.”
link to web.archive.org
FYI, In much the same way that the Bible explained that Sarah was Abraham’s niece, the Talmud informs us that Esther was actually her uncle Mordechai’s wife when he married her off to the King of Persia.
link to web.archive.org
Very true. Another name for Ishtar was Inanna. :-)
From David Plotz’s Blogging the Bible:
link to slate.com
When we learned this story in Israel first, as young children, the “orgy of violence” as Plotz calls it, was glossed over, though there was much rejoicing at Haman and his ten children’s demise. When the story was studied again, at a higher grade, what nuance there was, using the commentaries, addressed somewhat obliquely the issue of massacres perpetrated by Jews against Persians, most of whom would have to be presumed innocent of any wrong doing. Wrong place at the wrong time, kind of thing. The way the presumed innocence was addressed, for the most part, was through a counter-presumption of guilt. Thus, all of haman’s sons were assumed guilty by association, as that was supposedly the custom of the day, ie., there could be no presumption of wanton killing only of warranted killing. One commentary I recall made much of the fact that there was no pillage. Killing yes, but the important part is that the property was left intact, though one must wonder who for. One thing I recall is that when I was very young (maybe 10 or so) I did ask how old were Haman’s children. The teacher, with some annoyance, assured me they were all “adults”. I asked how do we know? and he suggested that we move on. That, BTW, tended to be the response to most of my questions (and not just in bible class, which frankly, bore most of us to death)**.
As an aside, since I was in the secular system, there were teachers who dismissed the difficult parts by stating that the story was likely a myth, so some exaggeration was to be expected.
__
** Luckily for all, later, when older, suitable arrangements were made so that when I felt the urge to ask difficult questions, I could just excuse myself and go to the beach. Hence the many holes in my formal education…
This is really getting silly.
There is no evidence in the Megillah for any of this. All we know is that the King hung Haman and his sons, and that he did so after finding out that Haman’s plan to kill the Jews would have included his beloved wife.
One can presume that Haman was not planning to do all of this killing by himself; one can presume that Haman had mobilized people to do so. He was the king’s vizier. To believe otherwise is like believing that Kristallnacht or Nazism could have been avoided simply by killing Hitler or Goebbels.
A logical inference to draw is that Haman set a date for decimating the Jews in the Empire, publicized that date to the provinces, and mobilized some shock troops to carry it out. It’s also logical to believe that when Haman’s plan was reversed, it took a while for the message to reach the provinces.
There’s also little reason to believe that 75,000 people were killed in one day. C’mon. Think about it. This is thousands of years ago with primitive weapons. The language that the Jews stood up for their lives indicates that this was no massacre; this was a war of some kind.
Doesn’t it say something that the gorier parts of the story are glossed over? I mean, damned if you do, and damned if you don’t. If we glorified them, you’d say we were bloodthirsty. If we don’t, we’re dishonest.
It’s pretty clear that we gloss over them for two reasons. The first is historical; a text mentioning the killing of Gentiles would be taken by medieval Christians and others as grounds to defame and attack Jews. The second is that the theme of the story is G-d enabling us to triumph over those who wanted to kill us. That’s the theme, not some “orgy of violence.” Jews celebrate that redemption, not the killing. Do some draw parallels to suggest that Jews should stand up for themselves when threatened today? Sure. We are two generations removed from the Holocaust, a period of time where six million Jews were killed, many of whom went quietly to the grave.
What exactly would you suggest or expect? Are you a quietist? Are Jews under a special obligation to be quietists or pacifists?
“There is no evidence in the Megillah for any of this”
Hophmi, from you we always get the whole megillah.
“There is no evidence in the Megillah for any of this.”
But can’t we just draw logical inferences from what’s there?? Wouldn’t that be okay??? Hmmm… I guess not. You’re right. If it’s not in the Megillah, then forget it. We can’t consider it. We must assert that it WAS NOT SO!!
“A logical inference to draw is that… shock troops…”
LMAO. So let me get this straight. We can’t make the assumption that the queen was bloodthirsty, but you’re okay with conjouring up a Bronze-Age Sturmabteilung???
Obviously, Hophmi, you need to read your bible. What’s the matter, now? megillah too long?
Besides, what I recounted is the way things are (were) taught in Israel, your selected country of refuge from the wrath of the goyim. Purim there is celebrated partly as a tale of righteous vengeance upon the bad goys, complete with invectives against Haman et all. The vengeance could be god’s or could just be plain old tribal hoopla (cf, if you are not religious but still quite clannish – ie, as most of the good people of israel).
You can wish for that passage to go away all you want, but it’s still there. Which is why mountains of commentaries were written about just that part. Your rationale is as follows (just summarizing):
1. 75,000 is not really 75,000 – the bible always exaggerates numbers
2. Haman must have been planning a kristalnacht, so he must have had allies. As to how many, well, see point #1.
3. The passage is bad and can be used against the Jews, so let’s hide it.
4. The story is really about god coming to the rescue of his beloved jews. What the heck would god care for some goys caught in the lines of fire, so to speak?
5. Invoke redemption (of the Jews only) – return to #4
6. Why are only Jews expected to be pacifists? Why can’t they be just as bloodthirsty as the next tribe over (thus proving Gilad Atzmon’s point)?
7. This was not really a massacre (watch your language, you bad goys and girls). It was more like a “war”. Funny that no casualties among the jews are mentioned (to which Rabbi Pilpulix answers – just because it wasn’t mentioned doesn’t mean there weren’t any – hey the bible is concise! you want the megillah to be longer still?).
Well, I could get to 10, but am running out of time.
How ’bout getting a bite of your hamantaschen to sweeten the taste, hophommie?
Now that I think of it, this must have been the second biblical instance of “Shuck and Awe”. The first was Jericho (definitely the noisiest).
“Shake n bake, n Ah heped!” Tasty food for thought
“chickens coming home to roost” Words as chickens?
Danna, loved your dissection.
One commentary I recall made much of the fact that there was no pillage. Killing yes, but the important part is that the property was left intact, though one must wonder who for.
All part of the bad karma incurred by Saul and his followers, who failed to kill the Amelekite king, Agag, and kept the best sheep and oxen – despite explicit orders to the contrary (see 1 Samuel 15). Mordecai – a Benjaminite, like Saul – had Haman the Agagaite (the nemesis who would never have been born had Saul done as he had been told) and all his descendants killed, and Mordecai’s followers didn’t touch the spoils (as per God’s original command to Saul). How’s that for a happy ending?
Luckily for all, later, when older, suitable arrangements were made so that when I felt the urge to ask difficult questions, I could just excuse myself and go to the beach.
There’s a religious equivalent of the “it’s all a myth anyway” defence: “divine wisdom is beyond human understanding”. That worked for me, more or less, until I got older. Besides, as I’m sure you know, Jerusalemites are afraid of the water ;-)
Thanks Shmuel for the Agag angle. Got a good giggle out of me. Those darn Amalekites – they sure got around, didn’t they?
The Christians have an even better answer: all was redeemed later and made good thanks to christ (which leaves only one question – why is it all still so bad? At which point there’s a sharp pivot straight to the second coming, when that which is still not good will be no longer. Gog and Magog finally get rid of Agag. Bingo, problem solved). Ain’t humans clever?
BTW, you are OK with water now, right (I mean, when in Rome, etc….)?
BTW, you are OK with water now, right (I mean, when in Rome, etc….)?
Thanks for your concern. I am OK with water now, although I’d still rather look at the sea than swim in it :-) Spent most of today doing just that, in the Maremma area of southern Tuscany. Breathtaking.
There’s also little reason to believe that 75,000 people were killed in one day. C’mon. Think about it. This is thousands of years ago with primitive weapons. The language that the Jews stood up for their lives indicates that this was no massacre; this was a war of some kind.
If there’s little reason to believe the 75,000 figure, then why is there any reason to believe any other aspect of the story? History (and fables) are written by the victors. Mordechai won and became Grand Vizier in the story so he, or those who wanted to use his story to assert a viewpoint, got to tell it from their viewpoint, not Haman’s, if he even existed. You choose to believe the parts that accentuate your feelings of Jewish victimhood, and then refute the parts that don’t support your victim mentality.
Frankly, the whole story makes no sense, most particularly a King that seems to abdicate all decision-making to Haman and Esther. “Hey, I’m pissed at Mordechai, let me kill all the Jews”…”Oh sure, Haman, go ahead, dude.Whatever” … “King, sweetie, Haman’s a bad dude, let the Jews kill all Haman’s people, instead”…”Fine. Go ahead, Esther, my love. I’m led by my d*ck, so why not?” And this from a King that supposedly dismissed his first wife as not sufficiently submissive. NONE of it makes sense and you are quibbling about the number killed? Really?
Its a fable. There’s no indication that ANY of it is true, as much as you want the “Jewish victim” part of it to be so. Arguing that the rest of its is true, but the number of people killed must be false is down right delusional. Think about it.
That some 80,000 Romans and Italians in the Roman province of Asia were killed on one day in the spring of 88 B.C. (the one day having been set in letters from King Mithradates of Pontus to the cities of Asia) by the provincials of Asia is about as well attested as any event in ancient history. Massacre of the Romans & Italici in Asia, ca.May 88 BC.
“History (and fables) are written by the victors.”
The Welch (Britons) were defeated by Saxons, but we know about marvelous deeds of King Arthur etc. There is not agreement if Arthur existed, so the story about Arthur conquering France is either exaggerated or a pure fable (no “kernel of truth”).
For that matter, Iliad and Odyssey were composed by non-Dorian Greeks as a fantasy about good old days before Dorian invasion.
You do not need to be a victor to write fables.
You do not need to be a victor to write fables.
But you do need to survive the battle to write your own fable. Haman and all his 10 sons didn’t get to write their own counter fable. Although I think Diane’s interpretation about the tale being a Judaization of the Babylonian gods, Marduk and Ishtar and Uman is much more plausible.
Anyone who thinks these stories are real, and justify launching a war on Iran, is insane and should not be trusted with a butter knife, never mind a nuclear arsenal.
Amen to that.
Just a note about Jewish holidays. Most contain elements of seasonal holidays plus elements of history (or if you prefer myth).
The three main holidays: Passover, Shavuot (Pentecost) and Sukkot (Tabernacles) all have elements of the seasons: spring, early summer and fall but also incorporate history: passover- the exodus from Egypt, Shavuot- the giving of the Ten Commandments at Sinai, and Sukkot- the circumstance of the 40 years of wandering in the desert.
I call those the main holidays even though most Jews would think of Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashana before Shavuot and Sukkot, because those first 3 holidays are mentioned in the book of Exodus and the holidays of Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashana are first mentioned in the book of Leviticus. In fact Y.K. and R.H. have only seasonal references and no references to history.
The two main holidays decreed by the rabbis (rather than by the Torah)- Chanuka and Purim contain elements of history- Macabee rebellion and Persian threat, plus seasonal elements. Chanuka’s lights are prominent at the darkest time of the year and coincide with other festivals of lights of the darkest time of the year (northern hemisphere) and Purim with its bacchanalian elements in March is similar to the Mardi Gras at the same time of the year.
Although Halloween occurs at a different time of the year the customs of mask wearing and giving of treats occurs both on Purim and Halloween.
I do not know whether Purim was based on history or myth. but if it was history, the following points should be made.
Haman paid a hefty sum to the royal treasury for the right to kill the Jews.
If a plot to kill the Jews had been hatched, there may have been a specific class or race in society that was involved with this desire to wipe out the Jews and so this was a danger that was not easily dispatched and required a massacre to set things aright. Obviously there are better ways to handle dangers, but until a time machine puts you in their shoes, how do you know how much danger the Jews of the time were in.
Yes and why do we … let it go when religious tribalists are leading a Marcus Garvey movement for Jews (Zionism)?
The reason is quite simple: because Zionist Jews control the American establishment and info channels. Surely you don’t think such things would be so common otherwise?