’60 Minutes’ profiles Palestinian Christians, Michael Oren falls on his face

The above story ran on 60 Minutes tonight. It’s a powerful piece showing life under occupation, and a damning portrait of Michael Oren as the chief spokesperson for Israel’s unjust control over the West Bank. On the onerous permit regime that limits freedom of movement and defines Palestinian existence in the occupied territories Oren says, “It’s their inconvenience, it’s our survival.” Oren tries to blame the dwindling Christian community in the West Bank on Islamic extremism, and Palestinian Christians interviewed nearly break out laughing. Not surprisingly, Oren calls Israel’s Christian critics anti-Semites.

But perhaps the most revealing part of the show was Bob Simon sharing that Oren had complained to CBS News head Jeff Fager before the segment had even been aired, calling it “a hatchet job.”

From 6o Minutes:

For Israel, there could be serious economic consequences. According to Israeli government figures, tourism is a multi billion dollar business there. Most tourists are Christian. Many of them are American. That’s one reason why Israelis are very sensitive about their image in the United States. And that could be why Ambassador Oren phoned Jeff Fager, the head of CBS News and executive producer of 60 Minutes, while we were still reporting the story, long before tonight’s broadcast. He said he had information our story was quote: “a hatchet job.”

Michael Oren: It seemed to me outrageous. Completely incomprehensible that at a time when these communities, Christian communities throughout the Middle East are being oppressed and massacred, when churches are being burnt, when one of the great stories in history is unfolding? I think it’s– I think it’s– I think you got me a little bit mystified.

Bob Simon: And it was a reason to call the president of– chairman of CBS News?

Michael Oren: Bob, I’m the ambassador of the State of Israel. I do that very, very infrequently as ambassador. It’s just– that’s an extraordinary move for me to complain about something. When I heard that you were going to do a story about Christians in the Holy Land and my assum– and– and had, I believe, information about the nature of it, and it’s been confirmed by this interview today.

Bob Simon: Nothing’s been confirmed by the interview, Mr. Ambassador, because you don’t know what’s going to be put on air.

Michael Oren: Okay. I don’t. True.

Bob Simon: Mr. Ambassador, I’ve been doing this a long time. And I’ve received lots of reactions from just about everyone I’ve done stories about. But I’ve never gotten a reaction before from a story that hasn’t been broadcast yet.

Michael Oren: Well, there’s a first time for everything, Bob.

This was the 60 Minutes gotcha moment. Be sure to watch it, the reaction shots of Oren are priceless.

There are also supplemental videos available on the 60 Minutes website including this on Palestinian Christian support for BDS:

About Adam Horowitz

Adam Horowitz is Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.
Posted in Israel/Palestine, Media | Tagged

{ 318 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. chris o says:

    Bob Simon: Good. Michael Oren: Evil.

    I am not very familiar with Bob Simon, but I know there has been times over the years where I have seen him do great pieces. And he seems like a smart, old-school reporter calling them as he sees them.

    This was one of the greatest moments I’ve seen on TV. Simon really exposed Oren and even stumped that robot-like dissembler. These are like mafia tactics. They are coming after you. You’ll lose your job. They’ll break your legs. Look at Media Matter, CAP, the Block memo. We decree some things off limits for discussion and we will get you if you try.

    • Miriam says:

      Chris O….you mentioned not being familiar with Bob Simon, oddly enough you added ..”like Mafia tactics….they come after you….they’ll break your legs…”
      so I HAD to share this short item which I viewed in late 2000 that discussed (peace-maker?) Yitzhak Rabin’s policy of “break their bones” actually take place. The thing that kept me glued was the familiar face/voice of CBS reporter Bob Simon on the scene. I was surprised when I googled to locate a reference to it this morning and found this: link to haaretz.com
      Most older/experienced international news journalists know the reality, but are prevented from showing it, and absolutley Bob Simon is one who truly knows.
      Also I had to “cheekily” add that I’d not “tarnish” the Mafia, who at least had a specific street ‘code of honor’ which rarely intentionally harmed children or teenagers or other innocent bystanders unlike
      the thuggish hoodlums who carried out sadistic abuse by IDF or border police brutality, literally, on thousands of innocents annually.
      From haaretz piece here’s the money quote:
      “In February 1988 CBS cameraman Moshe Alpert filmed four soldiers carrying out Yitzhak Rabin’s “break their bones” order against two Palestinian teens. Their bones didn’t shatter, but Israel’s self-image and its international image did. Now, years later, one of the victims speaks out.”
      CBS Jerusalem correspondent Bob Simon did the voice over and transmitted Alpert’s footage to the United States.
      URL: link to haaretz.com

      • Sumud says:

        Fascinating link Miriam, thank you.

        I’ve seen that clip and it is brutal.

        • Miriam says:

          Sumud..
          You are most welcome!…

          I’d bet many have seen that (horrific) Simon/Alpert/CBS report about the 2 teen shepherd lads being kicked & beaten w/ stones…but with years of numerous / increasingly vile examples of (IDF/border police) abject brutality many viewers have buried images in the memory hole.

          Chris’ statement about lack of familiarity with Bob Simon- nudged recall of that 20 + year old CBS clip…..
          Thank you for the acknowledgement, ‘steadfastly’ !!

    • hophmi says:

      Bob Simon got Michael Oren. Yay. Meanwhile in Iraq:

      link to en.wikipedia.org

      In Egypt:

      link to en.wikipedia.org
      link to en.wikipedia.org

      Stories about this on Mondoweiss = 0.

      • Philip Weiss says:

        didn’t you leave out Syria, hop? im sure you care about the syrians!

        • Hostage says:

          didn’t you leave out Syria, hop?

          Well there’s no reason for Simon to say that Christians aren’t suffering from violence in Israel. Churches there have always been targets for arson, stoning, and graffiti. Rabbis frequently gather and burn copies of the Christian scriptures. “Messianic” Jews have been given Purim baskets containing pipe bombs. The government frequently deports foreign “missionaries”, and anti-missionary organizations, like “Yad Le’Achim, openly brag about the fact that their mass protests at private homes and churches have succeeded in preventing Christian congregations from holding services, distributing literature, or baptizing Jews.

        • hophmi says:

          “there have always been targets for arson, stoning, and graffiti

          How many churches have been bombed by Jews since 1948?

          “Rabbis frequently gather and burn copies of the Christian scriptures”

          When did this happen? And what proof do you have that it happens “frequently?”

          ““Messianic” Jews [Jews for Jesus] have been given Purim baskets containing pipe bombs.”

          When?

        • Hostage says:

          How many churches have been bombed by Jews since 1948?

          The Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem, by Issa Nakhleh documents dozens of examples.

          what proof do you have that it happens “frequently?”

          When the same thing happens year after year, as confirmed by the date line of the news reports.

          If you don’t know what I’m talking about, try using Google yourself or subscribe to a few good news lists that routinely translate Hebrew press reports on instances of religious intolerance, persecution, price tag attacks, and acts of terror, e.g.: link to caspari.com

          Here’s a few articles from the English press:

          “Missionaries under threat in Israel” describes the pipe bomb attack
          link to usatoday.com
          German student to be deported for alleged ‘missionary work’
          link to haaretz.com
          Evangelical Christian aid worker deported from Israel
          link to baptiststandard.com
          Christian Peacemakers deported from Israel
          link to imemc.org
          Op-Ed: A Burning Issue (noxious, idolatrous books and pamphlets) link to israelnationalnews.com
          Jewish Deputy Mayor Apologizes for New Testament Burning (2012)
          link to christianpost.com
          Hundreds of New Testaments torched in Israel (2008)
          link to edition.cnn.com
          Jerusalem church fire being probed (2010)
          link to jta.org
          Arsonists torch Jerusalem church, Holy books burnt (2007); last church fire in 1982 set by ultranationalists.
          link to jpost.com
          link to haaretz.com
          Jerusalem Christians are latest targets in recent spate of ‘price tag’ attacks Attack on Baptist Congregation marks the latest in series of attacks ( 2012)
          link to haaretz.com
          Jerusalem monastery, Jewish-Arab school defaced in suspected ‘price tag’ attack (2012)
          link to haaretz.com
          Ultra-Orthodox Jews Harass Israeli Believers (2011)
          link to cbn.com

          The State Department country report for Israel (2007) advised that:

          In July 2005 the Messianic congregation in Arad published a letter in Iton HaTzvi that reported harassment by members of an ultra-Orthodox community. In September 2005 the High Court heard a petition by ultra-Orthodox Jews seeking the right to demonstrate [with up to 700 persons] at the house of a family of Messianic Jews and reversal of a police decision prohibiting such a demonstration. At year’s end there was no further information on a court ruling. According to Messianic Jews resident there, since 2004 the Gur Hassidim have demonstrated regularly in front of the homes of Christians and Messianic Jews in Arad to protest alleged Christian proselytizing by this group. In interviews with Ha’aretz newspaper on November 14, the mayor and several officials of Arad objected to Messianic Jews in their city, but acknowledged having no legal basis to expel them.

          In December 2005 approximately 200 ultra-Orthodox Jews disrupted the religious service of a Messianic congregation in Be’er Sheva, assaulting the congregation’s pastor, damaging property, and harassing members of the congregation. In June a Be’er Sheva magistrate’s court rejected an appeal by the congregation for a restraining order against ultra-Orthodox protesters. At year’s end there were no further developments.
          link to state.gov

          The 2010 report said:
          Many Jewish citizens objected to exclusive Orthodox rabbinic control over aspects of their personal lives. Approximately 310,000 citizens who immigrated, either as Jews or as family members of Jews, are not considered Jewish by the Orthodox Rabbinate. They cannot be married, divorced, or buried in Jewish cemeteries within the country. The estimated 20,000 Messianic Jews, who believe Jesus is the Messiah and consider themselves to be Jews, also often experienced this infringement on their personal lives, since the Orthodox Rabbinate did not consider them Jewish. A 1996 law requiring the government to establish civil cemeteries has not been fully implemented, although eight civil cemeteries exist.
          link to state.gov

        • Hostage says:

          P.S. Here is a 1998 report from the Caspari Center about 1,000 rock throwing ultra-Orthodox Jews disrupting the religious service of the Messianic congregation in Be’er Sheva, damaging property, and harassing members of the congregation. Compare with the State Department 2005 report in my post above (Same Shit, Different Day).
          link to caspari.com

        • RoHa says:

          Don’t you ever get tired of using facts to refute Zionists?

        • hophmi says:

          Again, Hostage, you’re being blatantly disingenuous and dishonest. You wrote: “Rabbis frequently gather and burn copies of the Christian scriptures.”

          Your links are overwhelmingly about one story involving Jews for Jesus missionaries where some of the local yeshiva students burned some missionary pamphlets. That is not “frequently gathering and burning copies of Christian scriptures.” It’s not even technically anti-Christian violence, because the targets identify as Jews.

          As far as church burning, you say:

          “The Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem, by Issa Nakhleh documents dozens of examples. ”

          The Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem dates from 1991.
          link to palestine-encyclopedia.com

          That’s 22 years ago. The book’s author is a Palestinian diplomat, not a scholar or historian. In the book, he accuses Zionists of “hating Christianity” and a “deep-felt hatred of everything Christian.” He says that “Israeli Authorities censor all films and plays to prevent mentioning the name of Jesus Christ” and includes a version of Jewish history that people like David Duke might appreciate, claiming all kinds of Jewish plots against Christians.

          Oh yes, and it claims that World War II was a “Jewish war” and that the Jews “declared war on Hitler.”

          link to palestine-encyclopedia.com

          The fact that you would rely on a book like this for anything is telling. But never mind. The book includes a list of the attacks. There are nine incidents on the chronology in the book, all from 1982-1985. Of those nine, five involved arson. The worst damage recorded was a fire that destroyed a church piano.

          That is not “dozens of examples.”

          Caspari is (predictably), an evangelical mission, not a source “that routinely translate[s] Hebrew press reports on instances of religious intolerance, persecution, price tag attacks, and acts of terror.

          So your claim that “Churches there have always been targets for arson, stoning, and graffiti” is based on a chronology of nine incidents from the mid-80s from a 22-year-old book written by a PLO diplomat that claims Zionists have a pathological hatred of Christianity, Jews have no connection to the Holy Land, Jews are mostly Khazars, and oh yes, how can I forget, that Jews declared war on Germany.

          You claim that “Rabbis frequently gather and burn copies of the Christian scriptures,” as if there is some widespread anti-Christian campaign, based primarily on a single instance where yeshiva students gathered up some missionary materials from Ethiopian immigrants.

          You’re a joke, Hostage.

        • Hostage says:

          Your links are overwhelmingly about one story

          I actually posted three or four recent stories that contained references to burning Christian scriptures and they were about separate incidents which happened years apart. FYI, here’s a link to a story that first appeared in Yediot Ahronot, on 30 March 1997: “Burning the New Testament by Orthodox Jews in Israel”By Yehuda Koren. link to radioislam.org

          There is an explanatory note that accompanies the article from Professor Israel Shahak who explains that New Testaments are frequently burned in Israel:

          This is strictly according to the Jewish religious law and is often done, also in Jerusalem, since the Bibles contain the New Testament which pious Jews should burn, if they can. In Jerusalem, where Orthodox violence is more difficult than in a small town like Lydda, Bibles which contain the New Testament are often collected and ceremoniously burnt on a bonfire in an Orthodox neighborhood. No rabbi, and few politicians, have said a word about this. Needless to say, Western media will not report such events, although the Hebrew press does.

          That religious philosophy was repeated in the Arutz Sheva OpEd that I cited above. So why don’t you address the issue and quit dissembling?

          The Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem dates from 1991. That’s 22 years ago.

          I also included several articles from the mainstream press about Churches that were attacked and burned. One of those articles indicated that Holy books had been burned too. Those articles covered events that happened in the last few years, although one church had been completely destroyed by fire in the 1980s, before the new building was burned again.

          Caspari is (predictably), an evangelical mission, not a source “that routinely translate[s] Hebrew press reports on instances of religious intolerance, persecution, price tag attacks, and acts of terror.

          I’ll give you the URL to their archive again. They publish translations of regular Hebrew news items from the mainstream media several times a month. You can use the drop-down box at the bottom of the page to view their archives online. Those archives go back more than a decade, to 1998. link to caspari.com

          Out here in fly-over country, you’d better smile when you claim that an Evangelical organization isn’t a reliable source on persecution of Christians. That’s especially true when the Caspari Center is translating articles and has always provided citations that can be verified by independent third parties.

        • Hostage says:

          So your claim that “Churches there have always been targets for arson, stoning, and graffiti” is based on a chronology of nine incidents from the mid-80s from a 22-year-old book

          No that’s not the case at all. I think you omitted quite a few incidents too.

          I’d love to know how you eradicate over 400 Palestinian towns and villages without destroying any places of worship or attacking any Christians?

          Out here in fly-over country my neighbors don’t care who compiles the lists of attacks on Churches and Christians, they just want an honest explanation of what the hell is going on, if such a thing is possible. They encounter Jewish message boards where idiots seem oblivious to the fact that Gentiles can read their posts. They also encounter Internet laundry lists of grievances against Israel over it’s treatment of Christians. You can readily see that they are not limited to just nine alleged attacks. The problem of course is that many of these these things don’t have any explanation:

          St. George’s Cathedral in Jerusalem. On 3 Feb. 1944 three Jews were suprised as they tried to set a bomb at the gate through which the British High Commissioner would pass on his way to Sunday service.

          French Catholic Ratisbonne School. On 20 Nov, 1947 Jews smashed the statue of the Virgin Mary in the enclosure.

          German Catholic Church of Jerusalem. On 16 Feb. 1948 Jews threw hand grenades into the yard of the the church.

          Dormito Abbey, Mt. Zion. Also on 16 Feb. 1948 a bomb was thrown by the
          Haganah into the garden barely missing two fathers.

          The War Against the Chrisatian Palestinians 1948-49

          The Zionist attack on Christianity in Jerusalem:

          • In 1947 Christian Population of Palestine was 350,000. In 1948 the
          Israelis grabbed 80% of Palestine and expelled 800,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs. In 1969 the Christian population of Israel was less than 45,000.

          Convent of St. George of the Greek Orthodox- occupied 14 May 1948; struck on 18 May by a mortar shell

          Hospice “Notre Dame de France” of the Assumptionist Fathers- occupied 15 May 1948; used as a main base to attack Jerusalem. Large part of it was
          destroyed by the occupation.

          Convent of Reparatrice Sisters- occupied 15 May 1948; used in the attack on Jerusalem. Set on fire and mostly destroyed.

          French Hospital- occupied 15 May 1948 in defiance of the International Red
          Cross and French flags flying over it.

          Italian Hospital- occupied 15 May 1948 despite its being under the
          protection of the Red Cross; used to shell Jerusalem.

          Seminary of Ste. Anne was bombed on 17 & 19 May 1948 suffering heavy damage and many of the refugees within were wounded.

          Church of St. Constantin and Helena- struck by a bomb on 17 May 1948 the
          fragments of which damaged the Church of the Holy Sepulcher next-door.

          The Armenian Orthodox Patriarchate was hit with about one hundred mortar bombs launched by the Zionists from the monastery of the Benedictine Fathers on Mount Sion. These bombs also damaged St. Jacob’s Convent, the Archangels Convent and their churches, their two Elementary and Seminary schools along with their libraries. 8 killed and 120 wounded.

          The Apostolic Delegation (protected by the Holy See)- occupied 18 May 1948.

          Monastery of the German Benedictine Fathers (Dormition)- occupied 18 May 1948; used as one of the main bases for the attack on Jerusalem.

          The English School at Mount Sion- occupied 18 May 1948

          Convent of St. John (Greek Orthodox)- occupied 18 May 1948; struck by a
          mortar shell on 23 May 1948

          St. Abraham convent struck by mortar fire on 23 May 1948

          St. Spiridon convent struck by mortar fire on 23 May 1948

          Convent of the Archangel (belonging to the Coptic Patriarchate) forming part of the Holy Sepulcher struck by a mortar shell on 23 May 1948

          The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate hit by mortar shells on 23 & 24 May 1948 wounding many refugees

          Franciscan Convent (St. Saviour) near the Holy Sepulcher hit by mortar
          shells on 19, 23, 24, & 28 May 1948- orphanage damaged; general secretariat damaged; many nearby houses destroyed; many sheltering children killed and wounded

          Latin Patriarchate hit by mortar shelling on 23, 26, 27 & 28 May 1948 damaging the Patriarchal Palace, especially the Cathedral

          Greek Catholic Patriarchate struck by mortar shells on 16 & 29 May 1948
          damaging the building and wounding several people.

          Church of St. Mark (Syrian Orthodox)- struck by mortar shell killing the
          monk Peter Saymy, secretary to the bishop, and wounding two others.

          Zionists fired on Jerusalem from the Hebrew University, Hadassah Hospital
          and from two synagogues located in the Old City.

          Desecration in Peace: 1949-1967

          • On Mt. Zion in Jerusalem Israeli forces first seized then looted various
          churches and convents. Gold and silver religious objects were taken and the
          churches and convents turned into military posts. The soldiers desecrated
          and vandalized the Armenian and Greek Orthodox cemeteries.

          • Churches were destroyed in Damound & Somata.

          • Christmas Day 1952 the Israeli army blew up the village of Ikret, whose
          population was 100% Catholic. Its beautiful church was destroyed and the
          population were scattered to other parts of Galilee.

          • October 1953 the Israeli army destroyed the Christian village of Kafr
          Bur’om in Galilee. Its churches and schools were demolished and the
          population scattered to various parts of Galilee.

          • 16 April 1954 Zionist attack the cemetery of the Greek Catholic Community in Haifa. 73 crosses and 50 statues of angles were smashed.

          • July 1954 Israeli fundamentalists attack a Christian religious procession
          of the Carmelite Fathers and the Christian community of Haifa on Mt. Carmel near Haifa. The procession was dispersed, many crosses were destroyed and many Christians were injured.

          • 12 July 1954, a Protestant Minister in Tiberias went to a house where some families of Christian and Jews had gathered. A rabbi provoked Jews to riot by spreading the rumor that many Jews were to be baptized in that house. Hundreds of Jews gathered and attacked the house. The police were rushed to disperse the mob, and it was only the presence of the police which saved the Protestant Minister from being lynched.

          • July 1961 a Christian missionary group in Jerusalem was
          forced to cancel it services when attacked by stone-throwing Jewish
          religious fanatics. They chanted “Eichmann! Eichmann!” and began tossing
          rocks.

          • 10 January 1963 the Finnish Christian Mission School in Jerusalem is
          attacked by seventy Jews, mostly Yeshiva students. They smashed windows and beat Mr. Risto Santala, the school pastor. Further along the street the plate glass windows of the Zion Mission shop run by Reverend William Hall were smashed. All of this was the result of an editorial in the Jewish newspaper Yediot Aharonot of 23 Dec. 1962 which accused the Christian Mission of converting Jews to Christianity, and calling on Jews to
          demonstrate outside the Finnish School.

          Attacks on Christianity– 1967 & After
          The War:

          • Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem shelled by Israeli forces

          • Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem- Israeli soldiers and youths throw stink bombs into the church Israelis inappropriately dressed entered the church;they smoked cigarettes; they littered the church; they brought dogs with them
          • Church of the Nativity suffered some of the same desecretions as the Holy
          Sepulchre

          • Israeli forces shot up the Episcopal Cathedral just as they had done in 1948

          • IDF smashed the Episcopal school for boys with their tanks

          • IDF wrecked and looted the YMCA

          • IDF wrecked the Lutheran Hospital, even though it was being used by the UN
          • The Lutheran center for cripples was also heavily damaged by the Israelis

          • In Ramallah the Episcopal school for girls was fired upon by Israeli forces and some of the girls were killed

          • The Reverend S.J. Mattar, warden of the Garden Tomb in Jerusalem, was
          murdered in his home by Israeli soldiers according to
          witnesses who were also fired upon.

          After the War: 1967–
          1972 Arson destroys the bookstore of the Baptist Church in Jerusalem. The
          church suffers several attacks per year- usually window breaking. The
          bookstore also is a favorite target for vandalism. The chapel had recently
          been vandalized by a member of the ultra-right Kach movement.

          1974 Two American Jewish girls attempt to set fire to the Baptist Church
          bookstore.

          1975 A grenade damages the Baptist Church. Slogans were painted on the
          Church’s property- a common practice in these attacks.

          1978 Law against missionaries.

          8 Oct. 1982 “Unknown persons” set fire to the Baptist Church in Jerusalem
          destroying it. The adjacent church library suffered damage also.

          23 Dec. 1982 “Unknown persons” drew swastikas on the entrances of two
          churches in Jerusalem. They also tried to set the two churches on fire. In
          addition to the swastikas the word “OUT” was painted on the entrance of the Notre Dame Church- the second such desecration.

          Dec. 1982 Meir Kahane’s Kach group burned to the ground a Baptist church in Jerusalem.

          23 May 1983 “Unknown persons” attacked a convent run by German nuns in Jerusalem. Al-Fajr, a Jerusalem weekly, reported that this was just the
          latest incident in a series of many anti-Christian incidents in Jerusalem.

          June 1983 The Mother Superior and another nun of the Russian Orthodox Church were stabbed to death by an American Jew. In mid-month men entered the church and threatened the nuns. At another Russian Orthodox church, directly across the street from Jerusalem’s main police center, swastikas were painted on the main entrance.

          Nov. 1983 Father Fawzi Khoury of the Fassouta Roman Catholic Church was held for weeks without charge.

          25 Dec. 1983 A fire was started in the Hotel Nitzan in Tiberias on Christmas
          Day. Jews claimed that the hotel is a center for missionary activity and
          that various Christian sects are offering clothes, jewelry and sneakers to
          Jews who would attend missionary lectures. The Jerusalem Post noted the
          incident as one of many such actions harassing the group; meetings
          interrupted and photos of the participants taken and sometimes published
          later in anti-missionary tracts; windows smashed; stones tossed into
          meetings; homes of members broken into; and converts are often harassed. The owners closed the hotel and asked the group to leave. The anti-missionary group Yad Le’ Achim and a local yeshiva, Kolel Yad Rambam, seemed to the instigators of the attacks.

          Dec 1983 Explosives placed outside several Christian and Muslim religious
          institutions in Jerusalem injured a number of people.

          5 Jan. 1984 “Unknown persons” set fire to the Messianic Assemblies Church in Jerusalem– the latest of a number of arsons and bombings against Christian and Muslim targets. The church’s address had been placed on copies of Biblical literature later distributed in Orthodox Jewish circles. The church had nothing to do with the literature to which its name had been affixed.

          15 Jan. 1984 At the Russian Orthodox convent Ain Karem an Israeli army issue hand grenade exploded as a nun opened her door. The door was blown to pieces but the nun eluded death by ducking around a corner just before the grenade exploded. Israeli police point to the terror group Terror Against Terror held responsible for at least 14 such bomb attacks throughout the West Bank.

          Jan. 1984 Plans to build a Christian hotel near Bethlehem were scrapped by
          the Jewish municipality which refused to issue a building permit.

          After the fire meetings of the Baptist congregation are held in tent like structures. Their rebuilding plan is approved by Mayor Teddy Kollek but in the fall the district planning commission decided to allow only the building of a structure similar to the congregation’s original 60 seat chapel built in
          1929. The Church filed suit in Israel’s High Court.

          Yad Le’ Achim organized protests against the rebuilding plans. an unnamed
          ultraconservative Orthodox Jewish leader told the Jerusalem Post that his
          political party would withdraw from the municipal coalition if approval were
          granted.

          The High Court in mid 1985 asked the Baptist congregation to leave the area before it builds a new sanctuary. The court said it would not rule on the
          church’s suit for two months. The delay is designed to give the congregation
          and the Baptist Convention of Israel time to consider trading the church
          property for another site in Jerusalem. Lawyers for the church have
          recommended that the Baptists move on condition the church’s building will
          be approved as submitted.

          23 Jan. 1985 Ultra-Orthodox Jews protest opposite the Baptist Church against plans to rebuild the burnt-out church. The signs read: “Get Out,” “We don’t want a missionary center here.” One demonstrator said: The Church disrupts the Shabbat peace and lowers the quality of life in our quiet residential area.”

          13 Apr. 1985 Members of the Assyrian community (the oldest Christian
          community in Jerusalem), led by their archbishop, were walking to their
          quarter of the Old City on the occasion of Holy Fire when they were
          bombarded with hot water and rocks by a Jewish family from their home. This was the fifth time an Assyrian procession had been attacked during Christian holidays. The Jerusalem Post reported that the attackers were newly converted Orthodox Jews from America.

          The Jewish neighborhood in the vicinity of the Assyrian convent
          is all Assyrian property confiscated after 1967 to build the Jewish quarter.

          12 Apr. 1987 “Unknown persons” set fire to St. Savior’s Episcopal Church in
          Akka. The arsonists also painted racists slogans in Hebrew on the church
          walls: “Kahane the Great,” “Get Out Christians and Muslims, ” and Death to
          the Pope.”

          1988 In Gaza, 18-year old Kader Tarazi, on his way to buy groceries was
          caught in a crowd fleeing Israeli soldiers. He ducked into the house of a
          friend but the soldiers dragged him out. While beating him they demanded to know his religion. when he replied “Christian” the soldiers spread him
          cruciform on the hood of a jeep and beat him on the head. Then they drove
          him around the streets of Gaza for hours as an example. He died from the
          beatings.

        • Blake says:

          @Hopmi: Zionist stated reality had no plans to abide by UN Partition Plan, but rather eradicate ALL Arabs from land of Palestine, & that in Jewish docs from Mandate period the challenge of Zionism was to create a Jewish state in a land already inhabited by natives who mostly practiced Islam & Christianity. Early Zionists understood the challenge & contrary to their public pronouncements about “a land without a people for a people without a land” came to see that natives posed an obstacle to their visions.

        • hophmi says:

          I’m amazed that you would continue to quote from a book that accuses the Jews of starting World War II.

          I won’t accept a single cite from that book without independent verification. It’s not remotely a credible source.

          Even this list, which, again, goes up to 1989, does not remotely makes out a charge that churches are frequent targets for arson and graffiti in Israel.

        • hophmi says:

          “I actually posted three or four recent stories that contained references to burning Christian scriptures and they were about separate incidents which happened years apart.”

          Which you categorize as ““frequently gathering and burning copies of Christian scriptures.”

          Forget about quoting Shahak. He’s not remotely credible. Shahak writes: “This is strictly according to the Jewish religious law and is often done, also in Jerusalem, since the Bibles contain the New Testament which pious Jews should burn, if they can.”

          Cite me one mainstream Jewish source that says Jews should burn the New Testament if they can.

          That religious philosophy was repeated in the Arutz Sheva OpEd that I cited above. So why don’t you address the issue and quit dissembling?”

          It was not. The article was written, mostly tongue-in-cheek, by a lady in the Golan Heights, not by a rabbi. It’s not a statement of Jewish law.

          Again, I want to remind you that you wrote that this was a FREQUENT occurrence, something you still have not remotely substantiated.

          “I also included several articles from the mainstream press about Churches that were attacked and burned. One of those articles indicated that Holy books had been burned too. Those articles covered events that happened in the last few years, although one church had been completely destroyed by fire in the 1980s, before the new building was burned again.”

          You included a few articles indicating that a handful of Christians were deported. That does not substantiate your claims.

          As far as book burning, you include two articles on the same incident in Or Yehuda, the first of which you mislabeled 2012. It’s from 2008.

          In the second example you provide, regarding an arson attack in 2010 in Jerusalem, there was no evidence implicating settlers in the attack.

          The third example from 2007 doesn’t ID a perpetrator either, though it was probably Jewish settlers. The second article you quote on the incident mentions that the church was saved by Jewish neighbors.

          The fourth example, in which “price tag” was sprayed on a Baptist church, is thought to be a copycat attack, and again, no one knows who did it.

          The fifth example is a legit price tag attack.

          The sixth is an example of ultra-orthodox Jews bothering Jews for Jesus.

          Together, they do not make out any kind of case that churches are frequent targets of graffiti, stoning and arson.

          “Out here in fly-over country, you’d better smile when you claim that an Evangelical organization isn’t a reliable source on persecution of Christians. ”

          I’ll concede that missionaries in Israel may face more harassment from the ultra-orthodox than other Christians. There are legal restrictions on missionary activity in Israel. Caspari seems to being doing just fine in the “heart of Jerusalem.”

          There are fanatics in Israel, no one denies it. But to assert that churches are frequent targets of arson, stoning and graffiti is not something you’ve remotely substantiated.

        • which book are you talking about. if any of those attacks are not true or not verified elsewhere that would be one thing. but i just googled one of the attacks, Convent of St. John (Greek Orthodox), and it’s confirmed in this book, called Jerusalem 1948. is that the book you mean? War in the Old City: The Diaries of Constantine Mavrides?

        • seanmcbride says:

          Annie,

          To get a handle on this, try Googling [israel attacks on christians]:

          link to google.com

          You’ll hit the mother lode.

          As for attacks on Muslims (both verbal and physical), the situation is of course much worse.

          All of this was predictable: messianic ethno-religious nationalist movements, which is what Zionism has morphed into, derive their energy, forward momentum and reason for being from apocalyptic conflict with cult outsiders. Without an endless supply of enemies, they fall apart and collapse.

        • Hostage says:

          Hophmi the folks in the Bible belt jumped all the way to the ends of their chains when a lot fewer churches were attacked during the civil rights era and again a just a few years ago. You’d better come up with some better hasbara than you’re peddling here. The nut cases in Israel aren’t going anywhere and they are getting bolder everyday.

          Forget about quoting Shahak. He’s not remotely credible.

          I was citing an article by another author, Yehuda Koren. It appeared in Israel’s largest newspaper, Yediot Ahronot. It addressed an incident involving the burning of New Testaments, and repeated attacks on Jehovah’s Witnesses in Lydda with stones and building blocks. I notice you are dismissive as usual. We get it. You are trying to downplay the fact that in many communities the Israelis have been carrying-out pogroms against Christians for many years, while the authorities and Courts have played the role of willing accomplices.

        • hophmi says:

          “You’ll hit the mother lode.”

          I did it. No mother lode. Same stories repeated again and again. Did see this, though.

          link to topix.com

        • seanmcbride says:

          Hostage,

          After Googling around in the searches below, I get the impression that these trends are rapidly accelerating:

          1. israel christians
          2. israel christians arson
          3. israel christians assaults
          4. israel christians attacks
          5. israel christians burn
          6. israel christians new testaments
          7. israel christians death threats
          8. israel christians graffiti
          9. israel christians insults
          10. israel christians murders
          11. israel christians price tag
          12. israel christians spitting

          Bob Simon and 60 Minutes didn’t come close to getting the real story here.

        • RoHa says:

          “The fifth example is a legit price tag attack. ”

          Legit?

        • hophmi says:

          “You are trying to downplay the fact that in many communities the Israelis have been carrying-out pogroms against Christians for many years, while the authorities and Courts have played the role of willing accomplices.”

          Again, you speak nonsense. A pogrom is an attack that takes place as the authorities stand by. There’s zero evidence that these few attacks you speak of are anything but the work of extremists.

        • hophmi says:

          Bad choice of language. I mean legit in the sense that it actually happened, not that it was OK.

        • here is a report from today, this sounds really sad

          link to ynetnews.com

          Mosaic wall dating back to 563 AD shattered to pieces by anonymous assailants. Initial investigation suggests extremist haredi elements behind act

          The mosaic, which dates back to 563 AD, was discovered during excavations in 1986. It has an inscription written by a head of a monastery that was active during the inception of Christianity.

          According to an initial investigation, anonymous assailants arrived at the site and shattered the mosaic, scattering the pieces around the site.

          The culprits also sprayed a slogan on the wall nearby, reading: “The magnitude of destruction equals the magnitude of desecration.”

          Tomer Zacks, a tour guide who witnessed the destruction, told Ynet: “This is not the first time I witness the vandalism of antiquities by extremist haredi sects around this area. Six months ago I saw a similar act in Hirbat Madres. I think the two incidents may be connected.”

          Zacks added that he just saw the mosaic on Sunday, and when he came back for the second time this week he was shocked to discover that nothing was left of it. “Antiquities Authority supervisors had just finished collecting 23 bags full of the shattered pieces and told me that there is no budget to reconstruct it,” he said.

        • Hostage says:

          Cite me one mainstream Jewish source that says Jews should burn the New Testament if they can.

          Surely, the Chief Rabbi of Beersheba, Yehuda Deri. He is paid by the State and happens to be the brother of Shas religious party founder Ariyeh Deri. His congregation is the one mentioned in the State Department human rights and Caspari Center Media reports that I cited above. They are responsible for burning Bibles and repeated attacks on local Christians.

          He and the national anti-missionary organization, Yad L’Achim, have openly invoked the halakhah and announced a ban which calls for the burning of any copies of the Torah or mezuzos prepared by a Christian. link to yadlachimusa.org.il

          FYI, Shabbath folio 116A of the Babylonian Talmud has been employed since the earliest times to burn copies of the Torah prepared by Christians and to isolate communities of Christians. link to halakhah.com

          See footnote 21 on page 83 of Isaac Kalimi, “Early Jewish Exegesis and Theological Controversy: Studies in Scriptures in the Shadow of Internal and External Controversies”, Uitgeverij Van Gorcum, 2002 – and stop badmouthing Israel Shahak. link to books.google.com

          Chabad.info reported on a State Department cable that was published by Wikileaks on the relationships between Yad L’Achim and national and local government officials:

          A May 30, 2008 cable from the American Embassy in Tel Aviv describes the activities of the “Yad Leachim” anti-missionary movement, run by Chabad Rabbi Shalom Ber Lifshitz, and noting the fact that Chabad can “proselytize” openly:

          “2. BACKGROUND: While anti-missionary groups such as the ultra-Orthodox Yad l’Achim (“Hand to the Brothers”) have long sought to uproot Messianic Jewish and Evangelical Christian congregations in Israel, their activities have gone largely unnoticed by mainstream Israeli society. Targeted congregations have suffered harassment and occasionally even vandalism or violence at the hands of Yad l’Achim activists, but such incidents rarely made the national press. Despite the harassment, the number of Messianic Jews and Evangelical Christians has grown in recent years through both immigration and conversion. In recent months, however, increased press reporting and complaints from religious freedom activists have indicated an increase in Yad l’Achim activism and a growing, wider backlash against the presence of Evangelical or Messianic congregations and missionaries living in Jewish communities. Contacts describe a mounting sense of fear among Messianic and Evangelical communities, and allege a situation of near impunity where police fail to adequately investigate hate crimes against them. They also claim that the Interior Ministry arbitrarily denies benefits to people it identifies as Messianic Jews or Evangelical Christians. For their part, Yad l’Achim and allied activists appear increasingly determined to head off what they see as the “stealing of Jewish souls” by proselytizing “cults” that use deception and manipulation to prey on the weaker sectors of Israeli Jewish society. (NOTE: Proselytizing is legal in Israel, as long as it is not directed toward minors and as long as people are not materially induced into conversion. Proselytizing of less-Orthodox Jews by ultra-Orthodox Jewish sects, such as Chabad, is done openly and without the constraints imposed on non-Jewish groups. END NOTE).

          link to chabad.info

        • Hostage says:

          Again, you speak nonsense. A pogrom is an attack that takes place as the authorities stand by.

          I gave you links to a Caspari report extracted from Ha’Aretz, HaModia,, HaTzofe, Ma’ariv, Yated Ne’eman, Yedi’ot Aharonot, Army Radio, Israel Radio, Israel TV, HaModia, Ma’ariv, The Jerusalem Post, Beersheba regional weeklies, etc. etc., Nov.29,30 and Dec. 2-4, 1998. They said the police were called during a 1998 Beersheba riot involving 1,000 ulta-Orthodox people that was organized by Yad L’Achim in coordination with Beersheba’s chief rabbi. The rioters were threatening to kill the Christians and burn their homes. They were throwing rocks, vandalizing cars, and attempting to break into the building. The reports said the police merely escorted the Christians to safety, but did nothing to stop the riot that was endangering lives and disrupting the Christian Church service. link to caspari.com

          I cited a State Department human rights report that documented subsequent attacks and noted that the courts refused to issue restraining orders. link to state.gov

          I gave you another link where the Chief Rabbi of the city openly called for the burning of Christian Bibles. It also announced that the Court had overturned an injunction. link to yadlachimusa.org.il

          If you don’t think that’s a pogrom, then you’re a nut case. Your remarks in response to a mountain of third party verifiable evidence is nothing short of Nakba denial.

        • Hostage says:

          Bob Simon and 60 Minutes didn’t come close to getting the real story here.

          No, of course not.

      • marc b. says:

        Yay. Meanwhile in Iraq:

        but hophmi, israel is the most moral country in the world, with the most moral army in the world, the most sensitive country in the world to the victimization of minorities, the most ‘gay friendly’ country in the ME, the most . . . the most . . . the most. we only want israel to live up to its inherent potential. or should we all just shut up about the mistreatment of israeli minorities until each and every other worldly wrong is first fixed? i mean that’s the position i’ve heard some people take about israel. ‘why should i give a flying f*ck about the existential threat posed by iran to israel, when . . . darfur!!’ ‘let’s resolve the open war between the sudans before we worry about the potential iranian nuclear threat to israel’, they say. but i say no, i say we can walk and chew gum at the same time. wadja think hophmi, can we walk and chew gum?

        • hophmi says:

          “but hophmi, israel is the most moral country in the world, with the most moral army in the world, the most sensitive country in the world to the victimization of minorities, the most ‘gay friendly’ country in the ME, the most . . . the most . . . the most. we only want israel to live up to its inherent potential. ”

          Or, Bob Simon is a journalist in the West, which is mostly Christian, and the Christians still have an historical interest in the Holy Land that exceeds the interest they have in places like Iraq and Egypt (and Nigeria and Somalia and so on), so Bob is doing yet another story in the Holy Land, because there haven’t been enough of them yet.

          “‘why should i give a flying f*ck about the existential threat posed by iran to israel, when . . . darfur!!”

          Because hundreds of thousands of people have died in Darfur, and there are thousands of journalists based in the Holy Land, where a few hundred die, if that, in a year. It would seem like we could send some of those journalists over there.

          “wadja think hophmi, can we walk and chew gum?”

          Apparently we can’t, because the Holy Land is so oversaturated with journalists that they will report on 60 Minutes on how a community has gone from 30K to 11K in fifty years because Israel built a wall, rather than how hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Christians have been displaced in a campaign of intimidation and murder. Something is wrong with that.

        • ritzl says:

          I believe that Simon answered your question. The Holy Land is of profound interest to half of humanity. It is supposedly the source of moral guidance to that same half of humanity. What happens there is therefore of some considerable interest. And what is happening there is wrong/immoral. As is defending that ongoing wrongness.

        • eGuard says:

          hophmi: hundreds of thousands of people have died in Darfur

          Then what are you doing on this site?

        • marc b. says:

          hophmi, your myopia is your downfall, per usual. there haven’t been any stories on the sudan . . . or the flight of refugees from iraq? i’m a wordly, inquisitive guy, but i wouldn’t know the first thing about iraqi refugees in syria, for example, or about ‘the disproportionate use of force’ by sudan and against s.sudan (according to hilary clinton) without the MSM. it’s your persecution complex that makes it feel as if israeli misconduct is the star of every news cast.

        • lysias says:

          Those Iraqi Christians were driven out (largely into Syria) because the U.S. invaded Iraq and toppled Saddam’s regime, which had treated those Christians decently. Israel supported that invasion.

          And now another Ba’athist regime that treats Christians (including those Iraqi Christian refugees) decently, namely, Assad’s in Syria, is being threatened by the U.S., Israel, and their allies.

          I don’t think Israel has any right to complain about what happened to the Iraqi Christians.

        • marc b. says:

          hophmi: hundreds of thousands of people have died in Darfur

          Then what are you doing on this site?

          what’s the death of hundreds of thousands of sudanese when compared with the PR hit that israelis just took? where’s your sense of proportion, eguard?

      • Charon says:

        American Christians are the biggest supporters of Israel. I’m sure that the Copts and the Chaldeans in diaspora care about what goes on in Egypt and Iraq. How much of that is third party and how much of it is real though? Ilan Grapel, third party agent arrested for promoting sectarian violence in Egypt. How many Ilan Grapels are there? Because they were allegedly also in Lebanon doing the same thing with the Maronite community.

        Christians support Israel for different reasons. Losing their support would be a big deal. Trying to divert the attention to other nations with problems does not make your problem go away. Nor does it justify the problem. The whole ‘what about these countries with problems: (list)’ excuse is just a diversion. Israel has traditionally done some of it’s most brutal work while the world’s attention was focused elsewhere in addition to extending the status quo.

        64 years of ethnic cleansing and worse while the Western media covered up the crimes and the public mostly had no idea because dissent was silenced. Nearly a century of exclusively Western support including financial, military, and peace ‘mediator’ (compliments mainly from the USA). Corporate and military strategic interest in the region for a variety of reasons. Israel is a primary reason for instability in the ME. Good luck diverting the masses from hear on out from uncovering the horrible truth.

  2. this is a must watch video. the fantasy christians are leaving because of muslims!!!

    Bob Simon: And it was a reason to call the president of– chairman of CBS News?

    Michael Oren: Bob, I’m the ambassador of the State of Israel. I do that very, very infrequently as ambassador.It’s just– that’s an extraordinary move for me to complain about something.

    GAME ON! irvine 11 mr ambassador? screwing with our first amendment rights?

    • Frankie P says:

      A classic example of pre-traumatic stress syndrome. It’s almost as if these people want to prove Gilad Atzmon right again and again. And still the “pc left” want to leave him out of the tent.

      FPM

      • Mooser says:

        “It’s almost as if these people want to prove Gilad Atzmon right again and again”

        Man, that Atzmon is one heck of a smart guy. He realised there is not a single aspect of Jusaism or the actions of Jews which cannot be explained using the classic concepts of anti-Semitism, but since the Zionists have so distorted the concept anti-Semitism, good old classic anti-Semitism can be introduced as something new and revelatory.
        Why does ZIonism need to be associated with some kind of inborn Jewish evil? Why can’t it fall on its own demerits, which as far as I can see, pretty much the same faults that every project of its kind has, except that short “e”s are substituted for a lot of short “a”s. Try it, and you’ll sound just like a ZIonist.

  3. eGuard says:

    The fun starts at 10:55. At 12:00: “you named the president [Obama] a ‘ German’”.

    • Actual quote, also transcribed above-
      Bob Simon: And it was a reason to call the president of– chairman of CBS News?

      He did not call Obama a German, but I can see how you heard that bit incorrectly. He was questioning why Oren called CBS about the (yet to air) story.

    • Antidote says:

      “you named the president [Obama] a ‘ German’”.

      If Simon had actually said this, it wouldn’t be as offensive as what Oren actually said/did. Or why should it be, eGuard? Got a problem with Germans or something?

      Obama is listed as a German American politicians on this page:

      link to en.wikipedia.org

      He seems to be keeping a low profile on this, though. Wonder why?

      link to whitehouse.gov

  4. Elliot says:

    Bob Simon’s expose is a sign that Israel’s power to shame and insinuate is waning. Oren lobbed: “Anti-semitism!” and Bob didn’t run for cover. Great.

    However, I didn’t care for Simon’s homage to Ari Shavit. I know Haaretz gives him lots of space to elaborate at great length on his theories but what does he actually say? Here, in just a few sentences here he manages to offend Palestinian Christians and play the Zionist line while sounding eminently reasonable (at least to Mr. Simon).

    The Palestinian Christians are not collateral damage. They are the target. They are not caught in the middle of a religious war between Jews and Muslims. They are every bit as Palestinian as the Muslim and that’s why they are being targeted.

    And the reason Israel can get away with it is because Western Christians don’t give a damn about the natives, whatever their religion is.
    Yes, it would be so convenient if we could label I/P as a religious war, between Jews and Moslems, but it isn’t.

    • Very true. He allowed the false Zionist framing of it, which is so absurd. Zionism came to the region and ripped it up. And their victim is the “other” regardless of religion. It’s no Holy war, it’s the pure abuse of power to form an ethnoreligious expansionist state on land largely populated by others.

      And given right wing Zionist pressure on US policy…. we are all Palestinians now.

      Zionism may have to utterly and ultimately fail, for there to ever be justice or peace on this front. In fact, given the strain of Zionism that crystalized out, it is clear peace and justice will only come with a collapse of Israel as it is currently formulated. I see a long bloody road ahead, unless there is some unimaginable transformation of the Israeli mindset. Seems tough to come by, especially as nutter Zios can easily blunt any transformation with a little violence and assassination…

      • pabelmont says:

        Anon: “And given right wing Zionist pressure on US policy…. we are all Palestinians now. ” Wish I’d said that. So true. Except that the Palestinians KNOW they are victims and the USAers mostly do not know it. (The political class and MSM media class know it and go with the flow.)

        All it takes to screw up the world is for a lot of good people to go with the evil flow.

    • richb says:

      It’s not that Western Christians don’t care, it’s because of the deliberate fear mongering done by the Israeli government. People may remember my piece trying to convince my evangelical friends.

      link to mondoweiss.net

      This didn’t work at all. However, yesterday morning I sent a much shorter and much more well-received e-mail:

      60 Minutes will be running a story on Christians in the Holy Land this evening.

      Rich

      Unlike the first e-mail I got a number of responses of people that wanted to see the piece. It’s not that they don’t care about the Palestinian Christians but rather it’s they have been lied to as to who are persecuting them. We’ll see if my more “subtle” approach works better. One advantage this approach has is they have no opportunity for others to tell them what to think because their defenses are not up. Ambassador Oren knows the true state of Christians in the Holy Land. My friends don’t and were probably expecting a completely different piece.

      As for Ari Shavit the Christians I know don’t know what Haaretz is let alone pay attention to it. The reason why Ambassador Oren is panicking is he knows in his heart that a story like this will make Jewish elite opinion totally irrelevant. The evangelical monster you created may just as easily and just as quickly turn on you.

      • Elliot says:

        RichB –
        1. Sure the Israeli government aims its fearmongering at Western Christians, but you are absolving Christians of their own responsibility.
        Zionism is a Christian-Jewish collaboration. It started that way and nothing has changed from the beginning to now.
        Western Christian are trapped in their own web of complicity with Western Jews and racism against Palestinian Christians.
        2. I’m sure most Western Christians don’t care about Ari Shavit and Haaretz, but Haaretz is hugely influential and not only on Mondoweiss. Mr. Simon didn’t pluck Shavit out of thin air. And what he says feeds the convenient American-Jewish-Christian line about interreligious conflict. So much more pleasing to the ear than racism.

        And it’s not just us Americans who say that. We have a respected – liberal! – Israeli who will say it to us too.

        • richb says:

          I’m not trying to absolve any one of complicity but rather I am noting the brittleness of the relationship between Israel and Western Christians. Evangelicals in particular don’t give a tinker’s damn about what LIBERAL Jews think. This is where the brittleness happens. Adding the Haaretz reference in the story might make liberal Zionists feel better about themselves but when the break happens it will be a clean one.

      • Antidote says:

        “The evangelical monster you created may just as easily and just as quickly turn on you.”

        American historian Fritz Stern, in a recent interview with the FAZ (on the reaction to the poem of G Grass):

        Netanyahu’s intervention in the American domestic policy is inappropriate and dangerous. This may backfire someday. I have a Republican friend, a very rich man who asked for my opinion on this during the 2008 election . Until then he had always supported the Republicans but was unable to choose between McCain and Obama. Israel, he said, was particularly important to him. And I heard myself say, suddenly: “Allow me a historical comparison. In 1917, some Jews in Central Europe welcomed the Bolshevik revolution as an opportunity for emancipation, liberation, equality. I can understand that. However, this didn’t end well for the Jews in any way.” What I meant to say — and I even convinced the man — was that the present alliance between the Israeli Right and American Right may be an illusion which could turn out to be a terrible, a radical illusion.

        link to faz.net

  5. In February 2003, I made my first of 3 trips to Claire Anastas’s ‘TOMB’

    On 19 April I was on the 9th Floor @CBS trying to get some info through the doors 0f 60 MINUTES RE: 21 April 2012 and the Global Call to Free Mordechai Vanunu

    I spoke on the phone and emailed Ms. Maria Lutzenm that same day, but no reply ever came.

    Monday, I will phone her again and ask her if I may PLEASE speak to a producer?

    More from Claire’s Tomb and Vanunu Mordechai @
    link to wearewideawake.org

  6. Dex says:

    Oren did fall on his face at the end there; that was nice to see. But that overall piece was about as tame as you could be. Just another weak story by the American media.

  7. Even when we get doses of truth in the MSM, we get STARK and VERY loaded hasbara lies. Truth mixed with various lies? Bad as a gdamn lie, or even worse, as it makes most people buy the lie.

    The main segment quickly comes with the following, as a voice over at 4:40 (meaning 60 minutes gives it as an authoritative statement of “fact”)-
    Israel built the wall over the last 10 years, which completely separates Israel from the Occupied West Bank. The wall was built to stop Palestinian terrorists from getting into Israel, and it’s worked. Terrorism has gone down 90%.

    Where do I begin?

    (1) It does not separate “Israel” from the Occupied West Bank…. it annexes a significant portion of the Occupied West Bank, including Ariel, thus bisecting the West Bank, stealing land, stealing resources, and making (what is left of) the West Bank a disjointed nonviable piece of land.
    link to ochaopt.org
    (2) It does not even “completely” separate anything from anything; thousands of settlers are on the “wrong” side of the wall, thousands of Palestinians are on the “wrong” side of the wall, and the wall is not even completed. The wall is breached daily by hundreds of Palestinians who illegally enter Israel proper to work (without permits, many breaching the wall on foot, or by entering in vehicles even).
    link to thenational.ae
    link to btselem.org
    link to youtube.com! (see minute 10:00 for the murder of one such illegal worker, by an intoxicated border official)
    (3) KEY POINT The wall has not impacted terrorism in any significant way. Terrorism was abandoned by the West Bank Palestinians themselves, as they were not making any progress, and eventually the PA itself also policed the West Bank to entirely dismantle any remnants still participating in terrorism. To say the wall reduced terrorism is a loaded lie that serves Israeli hasbara in MANY ways. This myth makes people think the Palestinians are attempting terrorism against Israel from the West Bank, but only the wall stops them… utter BS. Fatah has worked with Israel HAND-IN-GLOVE for years, and there is effectively no support for terrorism in the West Bank, let alone terrorists organizing attacks. A few isolated incidents do not negate this. Palestinians and Israeli settlers share many roads, 24/7, and even do business transactions on the roads.
    (4) Though ostensibly built to “stop Palestinian terrorists from getting into Israel” this is *simply* the rationale given to the world, and much of the Israeli public. 60 minutes should state that “Israel *claims* the wall was built to stop Palestinian terrorists from getting into Israel”, that would be journalistically correct, and a better journalist would openly question the truth of this claim. The wall was actually a transparent land grab, and was meant to not only annex land, but it was meant to create a worst case “de facto” border at some future date. This “de facto” border itself is further meant to render the West Bank a nonviable entity, thus the path of the wall itself has even graver implications should it be unilaterally pushed at some future time. The path of the wall is essentially the prescription for perpetual denial of a Palestinian state, and therefore, an endless perpetuation of the conflict itself (under which Israel can likely continue its expansion and ethnic cleansing agenda).

    I’m pissed, especially about (3). Most idiotic Israeli friends and family I have do not even understand (3). Israelis, who live a mile away from the OPT and serve in the IDF (even people I know from Ariel!), continue to think the WALL reduced terrorism. WTF.

    Zionism is built on lies, and the lies go so deep almost nobody can escape them all… most Israelis utterly disconnected from reality itself.

    • W.Jones says:

      Anon,

      Can you please write more about #3?

      I get that even if the wall was made to stop terrorism and succeeded, it was still PLACED in a bad way that obviously captured land deep inside the West Bank. Plus it does other bad things like create a Separation (Afrikaans for “Apartheid”) mentality.

      As for #3, you make a good point that the PLO abandoned terrorism and does policing. But it seems that they could also claim that the Separation Wall does also serve to stop terrorism in case some small extremist groups wanted to do it. I think in 2009 or 2010 for example, Hamas assaulted a car of settlers with kids inside.

      Now it seems you could still come back and say “Yes, the Separation Wall helped reduce terrorism in the short run, but in the long run it created barriers between people and the annexation created alot more unnecessary longterm hostility.”

      • tree says:

        W. Jones,

        To get more info on #3, I’d suggest reading this piece by Lawrence of Cyberia (Diane Mason), from 2007, called “One thousand Two hundred and Seventy Six People Per Week”. That’s the number of Palestinians who are arrested by Israeli police per week for illegally entering Israel for work. All those people crossed the Separation Wall at some point, or managed their way around it. If a suicide bomber wanted to get past the Separation Barrier, he or she could do exactly the same thing those 1276 Palestinians have done week in and week out. It’s not an effective security measure and the Israeli government knows it.

        The Palestinian independent news agency, Maan News, reported last Sunday on a news item that was broadcast the previous evening on Israel’s Channel Two:

        “Last night, Israeli television broadcast a report showing Tel Aviv police hunting Palestinian workers who bypass the Wall to look for work.
        A Channel Two camera crew accompanied Israeli police patrols as they raided construction sites and arrested workers who were sleeping outside or in builders’ workshops…

        The report revealed that Israeli police said they arrested 17,620 Palestinian workers inside the Green Line during the last two months. It also reported that 2,552 were arrested in the past two weeks…

        The report said in conclusion: “The wall, siege, security cordon, police patrols and border guards have not prevented tens of thousands of workers from reaching Tel Aviv every month”. “

        (translation mine)

        Two thousand, five hundred and fifty-two arrests in just two weeks adds up to an awful lot of people circumventing Israel’s Wall. And of course those numbers reflect the absolute minimum number of Palestinians who successfully bypass it, as they count only those who are arrested while working inside Israel, not those who remain there undetected.

        Israelis can believe if they want to their own propaganda about how the dreadful things they do to the Palestinian people are necessary for “security needs”. If they are more comfortable believing that the Wall in the West Bank is a defensive measure that has stopped the suicide attacks, rather than a land-grabbing measure which – from a security perspective – leaks like a sieve, I guess they have that right. But they don’t have the right to expect the rest of us to be stupid enough to believe it too.

        The next time Israeli apologists tell you that the Wall is a security measure that keeps suicide bombers out of Israel, just remember the number 1,276. One thousand, two hundred and seventy six is – at a minimum – the average number of permit-less Palestinians who bypass the Wall on a weekly basis to work in Israel. They are asking you to believe that the destitution Israel’s West Bank land grab inflicts on some of the poorest people on earth is justified because a wall which is breached at least 1,276 times a week by undocumented workers is nevertheless impermeable to suicide bombers. That’s what they’re asking you to believe.

        link to lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com

        And read this Haaretz article linked in the LOC piece:

        “Shin Bet: Palestinian truce main cause for reduced terror”

        link to haaretz.com

        • piotr says:

          This is why each illegal worker is interviewed for at least an hour by highly trained agent of Border Police. The interview system works!

        • W.Jones says:

          WOW!

          OK, YOU WIN.

          I did not realize it was that many workers coming in and out. Wow.

          I hope I remember this the next time the claim comes up.

        • I hope I remember this the next time the claim comes up.

          i just bookmarked the link.

        • WJ- this is why i love MW. reality revealed by people, with links to back it up.

          as for myself, i lived in tel aviv, then the west bank. before going there, i always thought “the wall is in the wrong place, and horrid policies made it a reasonable *at the moment* tactic to protect civilians; but still in the wrong place, and policy changes could have prevented any excuse/need for it”.

          in reality, it is a farce. i even had a (palestinian) friend from the west bank float the idea of sneaking in to meet me and play pool at my local bar in tel aviv. it was gonna be a great joke, where the next day, i’d tell my israeli friends they played pool with an “illegal” palestinian the night before. when a few workers got shot the day after, i said i didn’t want him to take any such risk. his risk would have been a jail stint, at worst, given the way he would enter.

          but in reality, the numbers of illegal workers is huge.

          a few times, when i would take the bus from damascus gate (occupied east jerusalem, old city; palestinian bus) into bethlehem, there would *invariably* be “illegals” on my bus. sometimes we would get stopped going from “israel proper” into the west bank, and the IDF/border police would check the palestinians who were *leaving* “israel proper” for papers. any illegal workers, who lacked proper papers for having BEEN in israel, would be hauled off the bus. and it was always a few if they checked us. they got some slap on the wrist and a night in jail perhaps… or who knows what, if the authorities felt like screwing them.

          these illegal workers/visitors who choose to take the bus *back* were either tired, saving money, or too broke to get back *into* the OPT late at night in a taxi or civilian car (taxis or civilian cars almost never got checked *leaving* israel, and in fact, you can easily drive *into* israel from the OPT in various places, with no problems… with the right color plates…).

          in truth, many israeli colored plates exist in the west bank, especially along the green line, as people have relatives inside israel, ties to east jerusalem, etc. if you have an israeli colored plate you can drive through certain checkpoints, and usually just have to smile and wave as you speed by (literally, at 20 MPH). this is a normal occurrence because you have to understand that *thousands* of settlers [with israeli plates] are constantly going to/from their settlements…. their work and center of life is generally within “israel proper”. further, many of the settlements deep within the OPT are accessed using roads that are shared 24/7 with palestinians anyways. on top of this, you have to note that any palestinians who are either israeli nationals or just “jerusalemites” often have family and business ties in the OPT (west bank), and they also have “israeli plates”. these people are also going into and out of the OPT with frequency. when they go back what do you think happens? at certain checkpoints they will look at the IDs of everyone in the car (only if the passengers are not *WHITE* at checkpoints settlers use). at some little checkpoints you get waved through almost regardless.

          so what am i saying?

          the green line is already erased (of course), but it is not just moved….

          there is NO LINE for all intents and purposes, especially if you want to take the littlest bit of trouble. literally, you can grab a taxi in bethlehem with israeli plates (and they are at the ready), and “sneak” yourself in if you want.

          i might have rambled, but the bottom line is, the sh*t is absurd.

      • Sumud says:

        W.Jones – the main form of terrorism that the separation wall is supposed to have stopped is suicide bombing ~ except that a suicide bombing hasn’t occurred for about 5 years now and was actually renounced as a tactic in 2006, at least by Hamas:

        Hamas in call to end suicide bombings

        If you look at the breakdown of bombings on a yearly basis you see they tapered off rapidly after 2002-2003, the height of the second intifadah:

        List of Palestinian suicide attacks / Total number of fatalities, by year

        It’s hard to tease out the cause and effect interactions between construction of the wall and the decision to abandon suicide attacks, but the fact that the wall is *still* under construction, and is highly porous, with thousands of Palestinians moving through it daily, unauthorised – to work in Israel, means that the wall has played a limited role as I see it. If Palestinians wanted to get into Israel and kill Israel jews they could, but they aren’t. Isolated instances, yes, but Israel kills many, many, many times the number of Palestinians than vice versa. They have for decades.

        Wikileaks has Tzipi Livni several years ago proposing her vision of a 2 state solution and she wants to use the wall as the boundary, not the 1967 lines. Recall the zionist shit hitting the fan when BO even mentioned the 1967 lines as the basis for negotiation.

        I see the wall as a land grab, nothing more.

      • smithgp says:

        More about the Apartheid Wall, W. Jones:

        1. Currently Israel uses 83% of the water from the West Bank aquifers, Palestinians getting the remaining 17%. Palestinians’ overall per-capita water consumption is ~25% of Israel’s and ~33% of Jordan’s. A true two-state “solution” would put Israel’s control of that precious water in jeopardy (that, by the way, is one of the major reasons why I think Israeli Jews will in the end agree to a single non-sectarian state in all of historic Palestine). The Apartheid Wall is designed to place not only the major settlement blocs but also some of the most important Palestinian aquifer resources on the “Israeli” side.

        2. Please take to heart tree’s conclusion: the Apartheid Wall did NOTHING to stop Palestinian violence in Israel. As far as a would-be terrorist is concerned, the current 60% completed Apartheid Wall is the same as a 0% completed Apartheid Wall. The violence has taken place WITHIN the Occupied Palestinian Territories, the overwhelming majority committed by Israeli soldiers and settlers against Palestinians in their own land.

        • Thanks you tree, Sumud, and smithgp for your analysis and documentation. One hears the same rationale for the checkpoints (“necessary to stop the suicide bombers”) and these analyses blow a hole in the rationale for the exhaustive system of checkpoints as well. Seem more likely designed for long-term degradation, humiliation, demoralization of non-Jews.

    • Tuyzentfloot says:

      There is an aspect of the wall that is rarely mentioned, namely that it mainly works through magic.
      The terrorist attacks stopped as soon as the first segments of the wall were cast. Coincidence? I think not!
      And it’s highly selective: even today, as thousands of illegal laborers cross it every day, terrorists can’t get through.
      Only jewish magic can be that powerful.

      BTW, the numbers always confused me. The number that keeps coming up is “40000 laborers cross the wall every day”. I suspect there are 40000 laborers, but they don’t cross the wall every day. They sleep over at work. And maybe they don’t work every day either.

  8. kalithea says:

    I watched it! Finally, the media is starting to get the truth out. It should have been titled: “Zionism EXPOSED”. Oren looked really bad and sounded worse. It was very satisfying watching that LIAR squirm out of uncharacteristic pointed questions from an American journalist. I was however disappointed Simon didn’t address the issue of Zionists spitting on Christian clergy. It would have punctuated a factual report very nicely indeed.

  9. Carowhat says:

    I wish they would have told us what the chairman of CBS said to Michael Oren. If I had to guess though, I say the chairman probably reassured Oren that Simon would never do another story about the Mideast as long as he’s with 60 minutes, “which, by the way, Michael, won’t be that long.”

  10. Stellaa says:

    Two amazing things in one network piece: Actually talking to Palestinian Christians and when Simon told the Israeli ambassador. Amazing what real journalists can do.

  11. Shingo says:

    This is truly priceless.

    Let’s hood this is a sign of more public humiliation for Israeli propagandists and officials.

    I wonder if Bob Simpn is going to get any nasty phone calls from his boss.

  12. stevelaudig says:

    Oren has a difficult job. Selling shit is a difficult job. Defending apartheid was a difficult job. Zionist Israel looks like a combination of East Germany and Apartheid South Africa.

    • W.Jones says:

      I don’t know. East Germany was authoritarian and had egalitarian principles.

      Although Israel was founded with alot of Socialist economic ideas, they seem to have fallen away, although apparently the government still owns a huge percent of the land.

      I think the country is more rightwing than it was when it was founded in its attitudes.

      The end result of East Germany on the other hand seemed to be a people with liberal humanitarian ideas, when they became united with West Germany.

  13. munro says:

    Christ at the Checkpoint
    link to christatthecheckpoint.com

    Christ at the Checkpoint by Latma

    • piotr says:

      Messiah having airplane ticket cancelled for being a self-hating Jew, or how Jews in Israel avoided salvation.

      • Taxi says:

        How To Alienate The World In Under Ten Years.

        I submit the above title for Mooser’s next Book. May it be more succinct and more successful than wotshisface Beinhart(?).

  14. Citizen says:

    If I email an article and/or video clip of subject 60 Minutes show to any Christian fundy I know, they will not read it, or watch it. How many fundies are there in USA these days, 30 million?

    Ditto for the Jews I know; they would resent it, even though the ones I know, including in-laws, are all secular Jews.

    The nominal Catholics in my own family would put it aside to read later and forget about it.

    • Tuyzentfloot says:

      If the story gets some traction at all it will be in the version of one of the interviewees(Ari Shavit from Haaretz): the collateral damage version. Christians became the unintended victim of the tension between Muslims and Jews. This is the preferable approach for the press because it’s the safest. No agents, no intent, stuff happens. Look, we’re impartial!

      I actually think the Christians were maybe targeted more in the process of reducing/minimizing the palestinian (economical/political/social/real estate)footprint. They had a relatively large footprint with on average better education, more money, and they were better able to set up an organized opposition. But it was also easier for them to start a new life elsewhere.

      • Tuyzentfloot says:

        Aha! I found an old article by Jonathan Cook that discusses Israeli treatment of Palestinian Christians. link to electronicintifada.net

        In truth, however, the fall in the number of Christians can be explained by two factors, neither of which is related to a clash of civilisations. The first is a lower rate of growth among the Christian population. According to the latest figures from Israel’s Bureau of Census Statistics, the average Christian household in Israel contains 3.5 people compared to 5.2 in a Muslim household. Looked at another way, in 2005 33 percent of Christians were under the age of 19, compared to 55 percent of Muslims. In other words, the proportion of Christians in the Holy Land has been eroded over time by higher Muslim birth rates. But a second factor is equally, if not more, important. Israel has established an oppressive rule for Palestinians both inside Israel and in the occupied territories that has been designed to encourage the most privileged Palestinians, which has meant disproportionately Christians, to leave.

  15. radkelt says:

    Simon previously did a segment on IDF commandeering a Palestinian home.
    Oren likely was aware of this and predisposed to take the offensive. I applaud
    60 minutes, Bob Simon and Jeff Fager for this show. The fallout will be fascinating.

  16. W.Jones says:

    At 10:35, columnist Ari Sharvit explained that Israel doesn’t persecute Christians as Christians, and that Christians suffer from Israeli policies that are the result of the overall tragic situation.

    Now this makes sense to some extent. It’s hard to think of the country’s early leaders saying “We want the Xtians to leave” or something during the Nakba. They didn’t couch things in religious terms. Plus, as Oren suggested in his interview, Israeli citizens who are Christians- like relatives from Eastern Europe- don’t seem to undergo state persecution for religion.

    But imagine if during the Taming of the West, the US army only rounded up Indian villages that hadn’t become Christian. In that case, the Indians probably weren’t rounded up for being pagan, but it seems that for Christian Indians they would rather be making an exception to the “overall situation” of the Indian wars.

    Or imagine a boss has to lay off nearly all his staff, and he chose to make an exception for people who had joined his church. In that case, the mass layoffs aren’t due to failure to belong to his church, but to the “overall situation.”

    Yet still, in these cases, doesn’t it seem like people are being treated differently based on religion, even if it’s not the religion itself that is being directly targeted?

    If everything was about the ethnicity of “two peoples” and nothing was about religion, the policies would be more careful about people, because alot of the inhabitants are from a common ethnicity from the Holy Land.

    • Mooser says:

      “because alot of the inhabitants are from a common ethnicity from the Holy Land.”

      Amazing how people can acquire a “Semitic” ethnicity by conversion. Of course, since Semitic is a spurious designation from the get-go, anything is possible.

      Very hard for me to see Sephardic Jews or Arab Jews and German or English Jews as having a common “ethnicity”. Anybody can learn to drop their short “a”s for “e”s.

      • RoHa says:

        Apparently, “Sephardi Jews are more natural and purer than Ashkenazim because, unlike the Ashkenazim who went as far as Europe, the Sephardi Jews didn’t move that far away, didn’t live among Christians and studied the Zohar,”

        But all this purity seems to have had a drawback. Sephardi Jews are a bit ignorant.
        link to haaretz.com

        • Hostage says:

          unlike the Ashkenazim who went as far as Europe, the Sephardi Jews didn’t move that far away, didn’t live among Christians and studied the Zohar

          Huh? Many European Jewish notables, like Sir Moses Montefiore, Baruch Spinoza, and Issac de Pinto were of Sephardic descent. Sephardic Jews ended-up living all over Western Europe, the British Isles, and the New World (which is pretty far away from Southwest Asia). FYI, “Ashkenazi” became a common Sephardic surname. See also “Sephardim in Eastern Europe”

          *http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Sephardim
          *http://www.avotaynu.com/sephardim.htm

        • hophmi says:

          Yes, there were plenty of Sephardi Jews in Europe, particularly those in Spain and Portugal who later navigated to Amsterdam, England, and other places.

        • RoHa says:

          From the story, it seems as if the Rabbi is using “Sephardic Jews” to mean “Arab Jews”. Moses Montefiore and Benedict Spinoza may count as Sephardic*, but they were hardly Arabs. Montefiore was British and Spinoza was Dutch.

          (*I don’t know what does count as Sephardic.)

    • Antidote says:

      “It’s hard to think of the country’s early leaders saying “We want the Xtians to leave” or something during the Nakba.”

      Is it? The Templers were Christians. Sure, they were summarily expelled as “Nazi sympathizers” after WW II, just like the Palestinians (all Nazi-allied Muftis, of course –not). Either group had some nice real estate coveted by the Zionists

      link to en.wikipedia.org

  17. hughsansom says:

    As I watched the 60 Minutes segment, I was wondering what Mondoweiss would have to say about it. Unlike so much of what is spewed forth by The New York Times or NPR, it was genuinely balanced. And Bob Simon did something that American journalists almost never do — he really challenged a person of privilege and power. Oren came across as the pathological liar and advocate of atrocity that he is.

    • Hostage says:

      As I watched the 60 Minutes segment, I was wondering what Mondoweiss would have to say about it. Unlike so much of what is spewed forth by The New York Times or NPR, it was genuinely balanced.

      Well no, it really wasn’t. Simon failed to mention that the International Court of Justice (ICJ) had determined that the Wall and the Israeli settlements that he was discussing are flagrant violations of international law that experts have described as crimes against humanity and war crimes. Even the US government has stated that neither have any legitimacy. For example, even Fox News reported that Secretary of State Colin Powell had criticized the Wall saying that “A nation is within its rights to put up a fence if it sees the need for one. However, in the case of the Israeli fence, we are concerned when the fence crosses over onto the land of others.” See “Powell Criticizes Israeli Fence in West Bank” link to foxnews.com

      Simon simply repeated the common hasbara line that the Wall was built to keep terrorists out of “Israel”. I think he let Oren off the hook when the Ambassador claimed: “It’s their inconvenience, it’s our survival.” The ICJ specifically pointed-out that the Wall could not be justified on the basis of necessity or Israeli security. The General Assembly and ICJ both concluded that Israel could have built the Wall on its own territory if that had been the goal. I think Oren probably succeeded in toning-down the report.

  18. ahadhaadam says:

    I remember one of my childhood Bazooka bubble gum comic strip jokes: “My boss is terrible but he is a fair boss! He is equally terrible to everyone!”

    In the same vein, Israel oppresses Christians as well as Muslims equally without any discrimination! I wouldn’t be surprised if this becomes the next Hasbara line…

  19. giladg says:

    Palestinian Christians are not all innocent bystanders. They have actively participated and supported violent action against Israel. To think of the entire Christian population in the region as being peace loving and docile is a complete misread of reality. The best possible outcome for both the Palestinian Christians and the Palestinian Muslims is working with Israel, as partners. The Arab world, ultimately, does not really care about the Palestinian man in the street. They use the conflict to distract from their own problems at home.

    • Shingo says:

      The Arab world, ultimately, does not really care about the Palestinian man in the street.

      That’s precisely what Bibbi is doing by hyping the non existent Iran nuke threat.

    • Sumud says:

      Palestinian Christians are not all innocent bystanders. They have actively participated and supported violent action against Israel.

      Muslims, christians, atheistics, agnostics, whatever.

      FACT: it is Israel that invaded and has since been occupying half the Palestinian partition in 1948/49. It is Israel that invaded and has been occupying the other half of the Palestinian partition in 1967 – the longest military occupation in modern history.

      If I were Palestinian I would quite probably be participating in and supporting violence against Israel. It is called SELF-DEFENCE and it is the legally sanctioned right of every person on the planet.

    • Dex says:

      You are just going to have to accept the cold, hard fact that Jews are killing both Christians and Muslims in Palestine.

      I know that is difficult for you to believe as someone raised to have a victim’s mentality, but today’s Israeli-Jews are very Nazi-esque.

      • And the claim that Christians Churches are not attacked in Palestine is simply a lie. And the story completely left untold is how these attacks on Christians and Christian Churches have been and are by the IDF and extremist Jewish settlers.

        The recent attacks on Christian churches have all been by right wing Jewish extremists, like the attack below. There have also been past arsons in churches, believed carried out by Jewish extremists. And other past attacks on Churches, well we have attacks on Churches by Israeli Forces back in 2002, even a priest was reported as killed by the IDF in that wave of attacks on Palestinians.

        Jewish extremists attack Baptist Church in Jerusalem
        Tuesday, 21 February 2012 16:30

        link to middleeastmonitor.org.uk.

        October 30, 2010, another Christian church was attacked and set on fire by extremist Jewish settlers.

        link to middleeastmonitor.org.uk.

        “At approximately 2:00 a.m. on 2 April 2002, Israeli occupation forces invaded the neighbouring towns of Bethlehem, Beit Jala, and Beit Sahour, according to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights:
        “using approximately 250 tanks and armored personnel carriers, F-16 fighter jets, and Apache gunships. At approximately 04:30, they seized full control over the three cities, except the Old Town. In the invasion, which was accompanied by indiscriminate shelling, 60-year-old ‘Aaboud al-‘Ameri, from Bethlehem, a guard of a building in Beit Sahour, was killed.

        At approximately 10:15, Israeli occupation forces fired three artillery shells at the house of Khaled Ibrahim ‘Aabda, 38. He and his mother, Sumaia Hussein ‘Aabda, 60, were killed by shrapnel. Israeli forces did not allow the evacuation of the bodies to hospital or their burial. The bodies remained with other residents of the house, including children, in the same room.

        At approximately 11:30, Israeli occupation forces shelled Santa Maria Church in al-Madbasa neighborhood. A number of priests and nuns were wounded, including Father Jack As’ad, a Palestinian who holds the Italian citizenship, who was seriously wounded.”

        link to electronicintifada.net

    • seafoid says:

      “Palestinian Christians are not all innocent bystanders”.

      Talk us through it again, gilad. What did the Palestinians do at Auschwitz to deserve losing their country?

    • Walid says:

      For Giladg and his question about violent Palestinians, the Church of the Nativity is where Israelis laid siege to the 200 or so Palestinian civilians, fighters, clergy and policemen that had taken refuge there 10 years ago 5 days after it started its “Operation Defensive Shield” to destroy the West Bank’s infrastructures by bombing its schools, hospitals, police stations, churches, mosques, ministries and other government buildings and so on and shooting at anything that moved. Electronic Intifida described what had happened and how the Western press had distorted and lied about what Israel was doing. The standoff resulted in deporting about 40 Palestinians to Gaza and another 13 to various European cities that accepted them:

      Israeli distortions during the siege on the Church of the Nativity

      Nigel Parry
      The Electronic Intifada
      20 May 2002

      On 29 March 2002, Israel began what it called “Operation Defensive Shield”, an unprecedented invasion of Palestinian towns to “defeat the infrastructure of Palestinian terror in all its parts and components” according to the Israeli Cabinet Communique that announced the massive military operation.

      At approximately 2:00 a.m. on 2 April 2002, Israeli occupation forces invaded the neighbouring towns of Bethlehem, Beit Jala, and Beit Sahour, according to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights:

      “using approximately 250 tanks and armored personnel carriers, F-16 fighter jets, and Apache gunships. At approximately 04:30, they seized full control over the three cities, except the Old Town. In the invasion, which was accompanied by indiscriminate shelling, 60-year-old ‘Aaboud al-‘Ameri, from Bethlehem, a guard of a building in Beit Sahour, was killed.
      At approximately 10:15, Israeli occupation forces fired three artillery shells at the house of Khaled Ibrahim ‘Aabda, 38. He and his mother, Sumaia Hussein ‘Aabda, 60, were killed by shrapnel. Israeli forces did not allow the evacuation of the bodies to hospital or their burial. The bodies remained with other residents of the house, including children, in the same room.

      At approximately 11:30, Israeli occupation forces shelled Santa Maria Church in al-Madbasa neighborhood. A number of priests and nuns were wounded, including Father Jack As’ad, a Palestinian who holds the Italian citizenship, who was seriously wounded.

      In the afternoon, three Palestinian gunmen were killed while confronting an invasion by Israeli occupation forces of a small neighborhood in Bethlehem… In addition, 18-year-old ‘Eissa Da’bous, from Bethlehem, was killed by a live bullet in the head, while he was in front of his house in the same area.”

      Trapped between advancing Israeli forces in the center of Bethlehem, approximately 200 Palestinians — mostly civilians and policeman, along with some gunmen from local Fatah militias and Christian clergy — took refuge in the Church of the Nativity, the Christian holy site built over the traditional location where Jesus Christ was born. Palestinians had last sought refuge in the church during Israel’s occupation of the West Bank in 1967.”

      Full story:

      link to electronicintifada.net

    • dahoit says:

      Yada yada yada.
      Why should they be docile to the destruction of their world?
      Are they lap dogs?
      Are the Zionists peace loving and docile?Ha!

    • CigarGod says:

      Do you think we have forgotten what Israel did to the Lebanese Christians?

    • Woody Tanaka says:

      “The best possible outcome for both the Palestinian Christians and the Palestinian Muslims is working with Israel, as partners.”

      The problem, of course, is that the Jews running occupied Palestine have demonstrated that they want nothing from the Palestinians whose land is being stolen, except for them to be still under the fascist boot of the Zionists.

    • eljay says:

      >> Palestinian Christians are not all innocent bystanders. They have actively participated and supported violent action against Israel. To think of the entire Christian population in the region as being peace loving and docile is a complete misread of reality.

      Hmmm…Israeli Jews are not all innocent bystanders. They have actively participated in, and supported violent actions against, Palestinians. To think of the entire Jewish population in the region as peace-loving and docile is a complete misread of reality.

      >> The best possible outcome for both the Palestinian Christians and the Palestinian Muslims is working with Israel, as partners.

      Ah, yes, the victim should work with the rapist as partners, even as he continues to rape her. You must be one of those “humanist” Zio-supremacist.

    • Mooser says:

      “They have actively participated and supported violent action against Israel.”

      You could have stopped after the first dozen irrefutable, multiple-source links, and I’m sure most readers would be convinced. But no, you overload us with proof.

    • giladg: “The best possible outcome for both the Palestinian Christians and the Palestinian Muslims is working with Israel, as partners”. ‘Partners’??? Are you completely insane? How does one ‘work’ with a rattle snake? Do tell.

    • Antidote says:

      giladg:

      I’m sure you will also agree with the following statement (slightly rephrasing your comment):

      “Catholic Poles were not all innocent bystanders. They actively participated and supported violent action against Germany and Russia/ the Soviet Union. To think of the entire Catholic (or Jewish) population in the region as being peace loving and docile is a complete misread of reality. The best possible outcome for both the Catholic Poles, Russian/Ukrainian Orthodox, as well as the Jews, would have been working with Germany, including the Protestant Prussians, as partners.”

      How does this sound?

  20. Sumud says:

    Great to see this, but as anonymous comments mentions above, shocking inaccuracies in the way the wall is described.

    Oren sounded like a jerk and we actually had Palestinians represented as normal people going about their lives. They have families, they have kitchens and shops and are struggling to make ends meet, just like real people. Great, and it’s *so* offensive that such honest portrayals are the exception rather than the rule.

    Bob Simon even peeled the lid somewhat on the behind-the-scenes manoeuvring that Israel undertakes to always try and get their own way. The optimist in me interprets this as a throwing down of the gauntlet by CBS. What Oren describes as a hatchet job was actually pretty mild.

    I think the Kairos document is going to become extremely important over the next year or two in western countries.

    I’m an atheist but my mother is a christian. I’m about to print it (Kairos) and send her a copy, and ask her to bring it up in her church. We travelled together in the ME a few years ago. Our guide in Jordan was Palestinian – a refugee of course. And, my mother is resolutely uninterested in politics and activism. A few years ago when I asked her about what she knew about Israel and Palestinian, even she knew that Israel was doing some Very Bad Things. I take that as a sign…

  21. Walid says:

    Interesting that 60 Minutes sat on this report for almost a full year and is now releasing it in time for the upcoming Methodist meet on divestment that has been more or less inspired by the Kairos. 60 Minutes also refers to the important Kairos document and in fact actually highlights it in the report.; Sumud may have a point about the gauntlet being thrown down by CBS, especially with the timing of its release and in the way Bob Simon was allowed to wipe the floor with Oren.

    Israel is more spooked for its existential mumbo-jumbo by the Christian Palestinians since they slipped through the net they have woven for Arabs and Muslims.

    To have bothered calling to block it, Oren knew damn well what was in the report. Accepting to be interviewed about it by Bob Simon shows he knew exactly how damaging it was going to be to Israel’s image. His gimmick about the Christians being threatened by Islamists isn’t believed by anyone. The only predators making life miserable for Christians, building walls around them, stealing their land and water and preventing them from worshipping freely are Israelis.

    • CigarGod says:

      “Israel is more spooked for its existential mumbo-jumbo by the Christian Palestinians since they slipped through the net they have woven for Arabs and Muslims.”

      Perfect timing for Arab’s/Muslim’s to convert and become Christians of Convenience….

    • Pixel says:

      Interesting that 60 Minutes sat on this report for almost a full year and is now releasing it in time for the upcoming Methodist meet on divestment that has been more or less inspired by the Kairos.

      Hadn’t thought of it.

    • ritzl says:

      Simon said they had been working on it for a year. I’m not sure that’s the same as sitting on it. But it’s interesting to note that content WAS leaked to Oren. Oren confirmed this when he corrected himself as he started to say “I assumed” and changed to “I received information.”

    • chris o says:

      Oren did not know what would be in the story, but he knew the subject matter: Christians in the Holy Land. And that, along with it being done by an old-school shoe leather journalist, was enough for him to know Israel would look bad. Because the truth makes Israel look bad. So the subject can not be broached and CBS should know that, as should CAP etc.

  22. Oren is made to look silly but its every Israeli ambassador’s job to defend the indefensible, and Oren does it as well as anyone else. Having to look like a chump is part of every Israeli diplomat’s job description.

    One is left wondering if Bob Simon had intended to interview Oren for this episode in the first place. One is left wondering how different this episode of 60 minutes would have been without Oren’s intervention? For all we know, Oren might have reason to believe that his intervention was a great success, and the segment would have completely different without him.

    Simon talked about the importance to Israel of American (mostly Christian) opinion. The must astonishing about the position of the Christians in Palestine which was not mentioned is the degree to which American “Christians” are helping to cleanse the holy land of its ancient Christian communities. So called Born again Zionists like John Hagee have raised millions or even billions of dollars to help build and consolidate settler communities in the west bank and east Jerusalem where Christians are not allowed to live.

    • Elliot says:

      Absolutely. Generic “Christian” is meaningless with regard to understanding I/P. Either you are a Western Christian and are in bed with the Zionists or you are a Palestinian Christian, in which case you are the former’s victim.

  23. - Bob Simon: Nothing’s been confirmed by the interview, Mr. Ambassador, because you don’t know what’s going to be put on air. -

    But in a way, Oren is right. Simon’s stern, hostile manner confirms that the story will not be particularly advantageous for Israel’s image.

    • Mooser says:

      “Simon’s stern, hostile manner confirms that the story will not be particularly advantageous for Israel’s image.”

      How stern? How hostile? Please quantify, Klaus, if only for the hell of it.

      • Well, sometimes it’s the quality not the quantity that makes truth.
        (But you seem to remember that I once wrote: “I like to quantify things, just for the hell of it.”)

  24. Taxi says:

    LOL I love this story!

    Since 9/11, I’ve been saying that Christian Palestinians are the ultimate key in exposing years of murderous hasbara lies. They’re like the Queen on the I/P chessboard, till recently, cornered into silent immobility by the idf Knights and the zionist media pawn monsters. That’s how powerful Palestinian christians are despite their dwindling numbers and this 60 Minutes piece gives their Queen some elbow room to maneuver out of her purgatory.

    Bob shoulda mentioned that some 3000 Palestinian catholics are living under siege in Gaza – he shoulda added that these catholic Gazeans were nowhere even near Nazi German in 1940′s, either in ideology or geography – so why are they being collectively punished in the name of the so-called ‘jewish state security’? Oh yeah – and one more question: why are catholic Palestinians living on the same street as moslem Hamas?! LOL I’d love to have mister Oren answer THAT question with a straight face!

    All in all, 15 minutes ain’t enough to give a COMPLETE picture of the plight of Palestinian christians – but it sure is enough to open the investigative doors of a chunk of the American christian community’s minds where they would flock (pardon the pun) to the internet to do their own reading on a subject that has been willfully well hidden from them by the diabolical zionist arm of the American media.

    What else are the zionists hiding? Would be the logical question of a newly enlightened christian.

    Another week is upon us and Apartheid israel has already lost more customers – two weeks ago it was ‘cultured’ people (Gunter Grass’s global followers and German youth), last week it was the peace-loving Danes who saw footage of their own citizen being given an ‘israeli facial’ – and this week it is a segment of American christians who are now soberly questioning israeli policies.

    Who will Apartheid israel alienate next week? Oooooooh I can hardly wait!

    • Sumud says:

      Who will Apartheid israel alienate next week? Oooooooh I can hardly wait!

      LOL Taxi, I share your joy.

      Bring on the new State of Jerusalem!

      • Taxi says:

        Sumud,

        Yay for the Democratic Republic of Jerusalem! DRJ! DRJ! HIPHIPHOORAY YAY DRJ!

        (Health Warning: zionists must NOT chant above slogan – will cause sobriety and severe realism in the utterer).

  25. OlegR says:

    Poor Arab Christians caught between their religion and their nationality.
    Say something nice about the Jews and the neighbors might slaughter you as a collaborator.But if the neighbors win you will follow the fate of your brethren all over the middle east.
    So you bide time immigrate if you can and give the meaningless token of respect for the cause so not to upset the neighbors.
    On TV you talk about the terrible occupation, off TV you plead desperately oh please please dear Israelis don’t go.

    • Taxi says:

      Yap. Arab christians REALLY love zionism and Apartheid. We all believe you. Mission accomplished for you. So now you can eff back to Odessa/Brooklyn/GoldersGreen you miserable amateur propagandist!

    • eljay says:

      >> On TV you talk about the terrible occupation, off TV you plead desperately oh please please dear Israelis don’t go.

      Yes, it’s quite puzzling that Palestinian Christians won’t simply rally behind a religion-supremacist Jewish state i) which continues to brutally occupy Palestine far outside of Partition borders and ii) inside of which they’d forever be second-class citizens. What a terribly amusing dilemma they face!

    • Walid says:

      “Poor Arab Christians caught between their religion and their nationality.”

      Oleg, Christian Arabs are more attached to their nationality than to their religion or to the pan-Arab ummah.

    • Blake says:

      “On TV you talk about the terrible occupation, off TV you plead desperately oh please please dear Israelis don’t go.”

      Name one Oleg. With that kind of name it sounds like you should be in Russia. Michael Oren back in Brooklyn.

    • richb says:

      Funny, when I visited Israel and talked with Palestinian Christians they said exactly the same thing (and no camera was running). In fact, they fill in details that Bob Simon did not. For example, when I was in Nazareth I asked about why it’s majority Muslim. Our guide noted that the Muslims fled when the Israelis drove them out of their villages in 1948. The Christians in Nazareth gave them refuge. In honor of the Holocaust victims the Jewish National Fund planted forests on top of those villages so they couldn’t return. The reason why Nazareth itself did not suffer that fate was because Ben Dunkelman refused to renege on the original promise not to harm the civilians in Nazareth even when ordered by General Laskov to evacuate them. My guide there also noted how Christians are second and even third class citizens and that Christians were emigrating in increasing numbers. My guide in Bethlehem also noted how the Christians and the Muslims got along but Christians were emigrating because of the occupation.

      So, I call bullshit on you. Name names or STFU.

  26. OlegR says:

    Interesting the report itself is pretty “parve” there is nothing there that i would consider
    an attack on Israel which makes me thinks that though Oren get’s a few bites
    from Simon his interference might have actually done the job and mellowed down the original story in which case i can only congratulate him.

  27. Mayhem says:

    Granted that Oren shaped up poorly in this interview and certainly his minders need to take heed.
    Nevertheless that does not disguise the fact that the program was a one-sided hatchet job. Has CBS ever bothered to report on the real exodus today of Christians from Arab lands?
    The interviewer gave one of their main experts, the noted anti-semite Lutheran Pastor Mitri Raheb, the opportunity to get off the hook and escape criticism that he deserves.
    Raheb pushes the anti-semitic ruse that Ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews but descendants of the Khazars..
    Furthermore the program referred to the Kairos document, which has been condemned as divisive and aiming to delegitimize the concept of a Jewish state in Israel. In December 2009, the Central Conference of American Rabbis characterized the Kairos document as supercessionist and anti-Semitic, declaring that “those who would associate themselves with this document and the religious foundation upon which it is based would be erasing years of Christian soul searching and repentance as if they had not been. We expect more from our interfaith partners.”
    I agree with the summary of the blogger  at link to naminghisgrace.blogspot.com.au
    “It is certain that Israel is causing many problems for Christians in Palestine, but it is even more certain that all the complexities of Middle East troubles, including extreme Islam, are influencing the Christian community to leave the Holy Land. Sixty Minutes allowed Raheb to turn “Christians of the Holy Land” into a propaganda piece against Israel.”

    • eljay says:

      >> Has CBS ever bothered to report on the real exodus today of Christians from Arab lands?

      “Israel: We may not be as good as the best but, hey, at least we’re not as bad as the worst!”

    • Sumud says:

      Nevertheless that does not disguise the fact that the program was a one-sided hatchet job.

      One of the problems with zionists is that fewer and fewer are able to distinguish between hasbara and reality. In the ziobot universe:

      Nakba? Irrelevant.
      Ethnic cleansing? Irrelevant.
      Stolen land and looted property on a national scale? Irrelevant.
      Decades of brutal occupation? Irrelevant.
      25,000 demolished Palestinian homes? Irrelevant.
      No human rights? Irrelevant.
      500,000 illegal settlers? Irrelevant.
      A million destroyed olive trees? Irrelevant.
      IDF-backed settler attacks on Palestinians? Irrelevant.
      Massive theft of water & resources from OPTs? Irrelevant.
      Apartheid legal system privileging Israeli jews over Palestinians? Irrelevant.
      Frying children with white phosphorous? Irrelevant.
      Deliberate crippling of Palestinian economy? Irrelevant.
      Checkpoint system design to humiliate and frustrate? Irrelevant.
      Siege on Gaza bad enough to stunt children’s growth? Irrelevant.
      Use of civilians in Gaza by private Israeli military contractors to test their weapons systems? Irrelevant.
      Torture and thousands of political prisoners? Irrelevant.

      And the list goes on…

      I tell you what Mayhem – if you think *that* 60 Minutes report was a hatchet job, you best take a few valium, and retire.

      You ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

      • Sumud: Irrelevant- you missed one off: Mayhem.

      • Fredblogs says:

        Actually, this Israel supporter doesn’t think any of that is irrelevant. Just explainable.

        Nakba, can’t say for fear of censorship.
        Ethnic Cleansing: Same.
        Stolen land and looted property on a national scale? Spoils of war (can’t say the rest for fear of censorship.
        Decades of brutal occupation? Necessary security measures against terrorists.
        25,000 demolished Palestinian homes? Same
        No human rights? Not even close to true, more human rights than most Arabs have in Arab countries. Way more than Palestinians have in Arab countries.
        500,000 illegal settlers? Not helpful, but the Palestinians would be still be at war against the Israelis even if they weren’t there.
        A million destroyed olive trees? A terrorist can’t hide in a flat field.
        IDF-backed settler attacks on Palestinians? IDF backed, non-existant. Non-IDF backed, unfortunate crimes that Israel should try harder to prevent.
        Massive theft of water & resources from OPTs? Non-existent, more water over and above the Settler’s water use is shipped into the OPTs from Israel than shipped to Israel from the OPT.
        Apartheid legal system privileging Israeli jews over Palestinians? No more apartheid than legal system in the U.S. that gives Americans more rights here than Iraqis have here.
        Frying children with white phosphorous? Accidental while using WP as smoke screens. BTW, people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones, the Palestinians use WP in their missiles they fire into Israel.
        Deliberate crippling of Palestinian economy? Unfortunate byproduct of necessary security measures.
        Checkpoint system design to humiliate and frustrate? Non-existent. Checkpoint system designed to prevent terrorism that has incidental effect of humiliation, unfortunate necessity.
        Siege on Gaza bad enough to stunt children’s growth? Response to over 10,000 missiles fired at Israel from Gaza since the pull out.
        Use of civilians in Gaza by private Israeli military contractors to test their weapons systems? Non-existent. Use of suspected terrorists to test weapons systems, necessary.
        Torture and thousands of political prisoners? No torture, no political prisoners, all prisoners are prisoners for plotting attacks, or other crimes possibly motivated by politics, but not stopping with politics.

        • Sumud says:

          Well done Fredblogs ~ you prove my point exactly.

          I reiterate: One of the problems with zionists is that fewer and fewer are able to distinguish between hasbara and reality.

    • MarkF says:

      “Has CBS ever bothered to report on the real exodus today of Christians from Arab lands?”

      Not CBS, but others sure have – on various news and opinion sites.

      The neocons that pushed for and got the Iraq war they wanted sure do have a tremendous amount of Iraqi Christian blood on their hands for unleashing a civil war in that country. I guess Paul Wolfowitz didn’t care at all about the Iraqi Christians when he dismissed the military’s estimate for troops, after all, smart guys that these neocons are, they KNEW what would happen and they still advocated for it. The war caused an exodus of over four million Iraqis.

      But point taken, let’s see a CBS story on what the war unleashed on the Iraqi Christians.

      • Walid says:

        “The neocons that pushed for and got the Iraq war they wanted sure do have a tremendous amount of Iraqi Christian blood on their hands for unleashing a civil war in that country.”

        MarkF, I don’t think the plan was to kill Iraqi Christians but to simply relocate them out of the Middle East. This has been on the American and European drawing board for decades but not only for Iraqi Christians but for all Arab Christians everywhere. They are somehow in the way of Israel having its hegemony all over the area. In Iraq, you had the master neocon plan of cutting up the country into a federation of 3 areas and Christians did not fit into the plans of any of the 3 areas, so they were shifted put with the help of terrorism. In the past decade, over a million Christian Iraqi refugees have been received in the US, France and other European countries. I’m told that in Egypt today, immigration by the Egyptian Copts to the US is almost automatically approved and a couple of months back, Sarkozy invited the Lebanese Christian Patriarch to relocate the remaining Lebanese Christians to France where they’d be welcomed and supposedly safer. The Patriarch of course turned down the offer. When the civil war broke out in Lebanon in 75, the US sent a fleet of ships off Lebanon’s shores to evacuate all the Christians but these refused to leave.

        The ones emptying the Middle East of its Christians are not the Muslims but other Christians from the US and Europe for Israel’s benefit.

        • MarkF says:

          I don’t think that was the plan either, but I guess a better way of putting it would be that they did not think about the devastation and did not care as long as they got what they wanted. A complete disregard for the possible consequences of shock and awe.

          If only the zionist Christians were to look beyond dispensationalism they’d see what’s going on.

          Brutal statistics there. A million Christians having to leave their homes is criminal, but of course no one will pay for the crime. Instead, the lot of them receive the medal of freedom.

    • FreddyV says:

      @Mayhem: ‘The interviewer gave one of their main experts, the noted anti-semite Lutheran Pastor Mitri Raheb, the opportunity to get off the hook and escape criticism that he deserves.
      Raheb pushes the anti-semitic ruse that Ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews but descendants of the Khazars..’

      It was Arthur Koessler who made the hypothesis of Ashkenazi Jews descending from Khazars. Koessler was Jewish, so that would make the ruse ‘self hating’ rather than antisemetic, wouldn’t it?

      If Pastor Raheb went around saying he was a descendent of Martin Luther, he’d be laughed at, but we are supposed to take Jews seriously when they all claim to be descendents of Abraham. Ever heard the word ‘proselyte’? It’s all a lie. Eretz Israel is a construct based on an ancient people from 2,000 years ago.

      As far as the program goes, it wasn’t a one sided hatchet job. Why? Because it wasn’t about Israel or Jews. This may amaze you, but it wasn’t about Jews, or Israel. It was about Palestinian Christians and why they are leaving the Holy Land of PALESTINE. The reasons are quite plain. They’re fed up living under occupation. Why? Because the occupation isn’t much fun to live under, I’d imagine.

      I’m sorry, but the narcissism is staggering. Israel makes people live under shitty conditions and then people want to bleat about how Israel’s image is being attacked. At least Oren was unapologetic when he said ‘their inconvenience, our survival’. I’d actually respect that if it were true, but Anonymous shredded that argument further up the page.

      • Taxi says:

        Very few people alive today know what the heck was going on in europe during the tenth century:

        “The Khazars had, for years, been venturing forth southward, in their marauding raids on the Muslim countries south of the Caucasus.

        “Islamic armies conquered part of Persia, Syria, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Armenia, and what is now the modern-day post-Soviet Republic of Azerbaijan and surrounded the Byzantine heartland (present-day Turkey) in a pincer movement which extended from the Mediterranean to the Caucasus and the southern shores of the Caspian. This was the time when the long series of wars called the Khazar-Arab wars began. These wars largely ended with Arab defeats, with a fairly well-known commander, Abd ar-Rahman ibn Rabiah, perishing in one instance. The Arab armies’ inability to traverse the Caucasus played a role in preventing them from succeeding in their siege of the Byzantine capital, Constantinople. Coupled with the military barrier presented by the Khazars themselves, this prevented Europe from more direct and intensive assaults by the forces of Islam, arguably keeping it from falling to the Muslim armies.

        “After fighting the Arabs to a standstill in the North Caucasus, Khazars became increasingly interested in replacing their Tengriism with a state religion that would give them equal religious standing with their Abrahamic neighbors. During the 8th century, the Khazar royalty and much of the aristocracy converted to a form of Judaism.[17]Yitzhak ha-Sangari is the name of the rabbi who converted Khazars to Judaism according to Jewish sources.”

        link to en.wikipedia.org

      • Mooser says:

        “Raheb pushes the anti-semitic ruse that Ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews but descendants of the Khazars..’”

        If the Khazars converted to Judaism, well then, they are good enough Jews for me. Maybe their bread-dough fell in a pot of boiling water, and the results, after baking, motivated them to find out more, leading to conversion.

        I have got to hand it to the Zionists. They must have known that an incredible, an infinite amount of twaddle (from either and all sides) about the nature of Judaism and Jewishness and its history was the perfect obfuscating, blocking and dismissing agent to avoid a real discussion of Zionism. Not to mention the supply of motivated or at least, unable-to-do-much-about-it human material.
        Why Mondoweiss so continuously supports this, I’ll never know. The fact that Zionism, which established Israel, was mostly worked by Jews is the probably the least important thing about it.

        Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the reasons the Zionists ended up with Palestine was mostly because nobody else who had a “mandate” in the area (on that peg I could hang a joke about TE Lawrence, but I won’t) wanted it enough to lie and murder extensively for it. One could hardly call that an exclusively Jewish trait.

        • Sumud says:

          …because nobody else who had a “mandate” in the area (on that peg I could hang a joke about TE Lawrence, but I won’t)…

          Ha ha Mooser. Those kinky Brits.

    • ahadhaadam says:

      This is the first time I hear that claiming that Ashkenazi Jews originate from the Khazars is antisemitic. There are plenty of Jewish researchers who claim this and there is quite a bit of evidence that Ashkenazi Jews at least partially originate from the Khazars.

      You better get your head out of the antisemitic conspiracy theories. The oppression of Palestinians, Muslims and Christians alike, is real. And if American media was unbiased and reported the rest of Israel’s atrocities (the list is too long) without sugarcoating or ignoring like it typically does, we probably would have had peace by now as support for Israel’s policies in the US would have been zero, like it should be.

      • Fredblogs says:

        Then you haven’t been paying attention. The Khazar hypothesis is a common anti-semitic trick intended to delegitimize the Israelis ancient claims to Israel. Anti-Semitism is the only reason anyone subscribes to a hypothesis that is proven false by historical records, and DNA testing, both Y-Chromosome and mitochondrial, that proves that Ashkenazim are descended from the ancient Israelites, not some Johnny come lately group of Khazars.

        The only “Jewish” researchers who subscribe to that theory are those who are self-hating Jews about at the same level of credibility as Holocaust deniers, of which there are also a few self-hating Jews.

        • FreddyV says:

          Oh dear Fred. The Khazar hypothesis has some weight to it, but it is only a hypothesis. On the other hand, suggesting that all Jews are descendents of Abraham is pure and simple fantasy. The Torah makes many references to proselytes and encourages conversion to Judaism. That doesn’t make a convert to Judaism any less a Jew than a descendent of Abraham. But the level of religious obscurantism required to make the statement you make about an ‘ancient claim’ to Israel is mindblowing.

          On the DNA side of things, see here:

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          geneticist Noah Rosenberg of the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, says that although the study “does not appear to support” the Khazar hypothesis, it “doesn’t entirely eliminate it either.”

          You’re stating something as fact when even the experts in that field cannot agree.

          Although I suspect you’ll call them Antisemites or self hating Jews too.

          The DNA tests actually proved nothing apart from a common gene.

        • Blake says:

          Nobody cares what your DNA is fredblogs but the Palestinian parent tree goes back further than the Israelite one (who invaded). Who makes people think the way you do? So called DNA as a land deed and so on. It’s just so odd.

      • Mooser says:

        Gosh darn it, some of my best friends are Khazars. One of them was Khazar of all Russia for a while.

    • RoHa says:

      “Raheb pushes the anti-semitic ruse that Ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews but descendants of the Khazars..”

      How does being a descendant of the Khazars stop someone from being a real Jew?

    • Antidote says:

      “the Kairos document … has been condemned as divisive and aiming to delegitimize the concept of a Jewish state in Israel”

      Yawn.

      Words and phrases that have become utterly meaningless and counterproductive:

      delegitimization of Israel as a Jewish state
      anti-semitism
      blood libel
      another Holocaust
      Israel’s right to defend herself

  28. pabelmont says:

    The principal interview was terrific. One might quibble and ask, why now after so many years, but very glad to see it. There is a way to go — the wall was not called illegal, the occupation (after 44 years and a clear land-grab) was not calledf a violation of UN Charter, and the settlements were not called illegal — so there is room for improvement. That said, very nice, and high time.

    The second clip was presumably NOT shown on TV and will therefore have less impact. But the woman was calm, collected, Christian, appealing, adn pro-BDS. Most Americans, again,. probably never heard of BDS and don’t know what she was talking about, but GOOD SHOW!

    And wasn’t the oh-so-gentle ragging of M. Oren fun?

  29. Tom Suarez says:

    A shame 60 Minutes perpetuates the myth about the Wall having anything to do with stopping terrorism (and a few other quibbles…), but nonetheless for the US mass media to air this at all, we have to be grateful!

  30. David Samel says:

    For the most part, I was pleased with the segment, though it was not as earth-shaking as Simon’s piece 3 years ago that radkelt recalls. That was less undermined by hasbara; especially electrifying were the repeated IDF takeovers of a Palestinian house in the middle of the night without warning.

    Some of the comments here are terrific – anon and tree and others on the egregiously misleading 30 second voice-over on the wall; and Elliot on Shavit’s equivocation on Christians “caught in the middle.” As taxi says, this is an extremely important issue. Israel has sought to portray this as a conflict between advanced rational Judeo-Christian societal values and medieval Muslims, but in fact it is Jews v. Muslims and Christians. That is the reason that people like Oren are trying so hard to distort the truth.

    Even giladg has something valuable to contribute here, unwittingly of course. He notes that Palestinian Christians have “actively participated and supported violent action against Israel.” True enough. George Habash, founder of the PFLP, was Christian. Issa, the leader of the Black September operation in Munich, was half Christian and half Jewish, and the operation itself was named after two Christian villages whose inhabitants were expelled in 1948 – Iqrit and Bir’im. Sirhan Sirhan was Christian. Many other notable voices — such as Edward Said and Hanan Ashrawi — are from Christian families. But gilad only confirms taxi’s point that Christians are every bit as Palestinian as Muslims, and that Israeli Jews treat them without distinction. Israel is desperate to portray Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation and Judeo-supremacism as irrational hatred of Jews because they are not Muslims, and Simon’s piece punctures that malicious falsehood, despite its obvious and significant flaws. Non-Jewish Palestinians are all in the same boat, regardless of the religion and heritage. Christians are not any more favorably disposed to their Israeli oppressors than Muslims are.

    • ahadhaadam says:

      “but in fact it is Jews v. Muslims and Christians.”

      No, the more accurate description is between a colonial dispossessor and indigenous population. The enlightened colonial dispossessor in this case does not discriminate between Muslims and Christians… he oppresses and dispossesses them equally!

      And just minor correction, Biram and Ikrit were ethnically cleansed in 1948 but their homes were dynamted in 1951 if I remember well, long after Israel’s independence, while their denizens were languishing inside Israel proper, which makes it an even more glaring example of the Jewish Lebensraum’s disregard for its non-Jewish inhabitants.

  31. gingershot says:

    The amazing thing to me is how elegantly Simons threw Oren over and called him out and embarassed him over his Mafia Tactics

    We need this 100% of the time in the American media – it’s standing up to bullies instead of being cowards

    Oren and the Israeli Firsters are fools and by letting them get away with their hasbara and their bullying we forget what a fair fight is all about

    Congratulations Simons, on having cojones

    • What people like Simon will find, should they stand up for honesty, is that the Israeli case falls apart as soon as it is exposed to the light of day. And of course that is why fakes and liars like Oren do everything in their power, leaning on executives behind the scenes, to stop any fair reporting about Palestine. The presumption that they have the right to be censors of what Americans hear and see is typical of their arrogance. The Israeli case won’t last a minute in the glare of some genuine reporting, and they know it. That is why they go so apopleptic at any suggestion that this is what is happening. The bonus is their hysteria/panic/rage only exposes what a bunch of cheap charlatans they are, and they are to be mocked for the fools they so eagerly reveal themselves to be, with the added revelation of how contemptuous they are of Americans’ right to know what is being done with their tax dollars. They are losers in any fair fight, and they know it.

  32. This was soooooooo goooooooooood! It’s like one of maybe 5 times I watched MSM and felt satisfied with the coverage, now that I think about it… I think Simon was responsible for past satisfaction too. I love Bob Simon!

  33. Pixel says:

    Unless we step back, we miss the immense significance of this.

    Million of 60 Minutes viewers still know little-to-nothing about the I/P “conflict” and, honestly, remain confused about who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. Keeping things confused has been a significant Israeli goal and, for decades, it has worked magnificently in it’s favor.

    Last night, viewers got a general impression in 15 minutes. The details don’t matter, the impression does and, in this piece, it’s loud and clear.

    Israel in the bad guy. Furthermore, it uses coercion at the highest levels and lies without shame.

    • Taxi says:

      On the money, Pixel.

    • ritzl says:

      Agree. I wish that they wouldn’t leave the … at the end though for viewers to connect the dots about Israeli interference. The interview with Oren is deserving of its own segment to specifically connect those dots. The “There’s a first time for everything…” statement is a hole you could drive a media frenzy through. There was a whole movie about Big Tobacco doing this (The Insider).

  34. Citizen says:

    The Jewish Federation acted quickly to manufacture hasbara talking points on Israel’s treatment of
    its Christians, telling its letter recipients to start ASAP swamping CBS phones, email servers & twitter account with protests at what the Federation assumed would be a show vilifying Israel:

    link to jewishfederations.org
    Resources available prior to the actual showing of the 60 Minute episode are listed and include Ohren’s prior essay on the subject in defense of Israel.

  35. CigarGod says:

    The sight and sound of clogged servers and phones ringing off the hooks at CBS……..

  36. Les says:

    It is important to keep in mind that the leadership of Christian Zionist organizations is funded by Jewish Zionists. For example, Elie Wiesel $500,000 to John Hagee.

    link to mondoweiss.net

    • Taxi says:

      So like the jews are paying for Jesus’ ticket back to earth?

    • Citizen says:

      Les, that’s the tip of the horrible iceberg because the Hagee-Wiesel dynamic is truly mind-boggling; it pays well for both sides of the Zionist leadership–and note how many dumb ass Americans watch and listen to Hagee’s crap: link to americanfreepress.net

    • tombishop says:

      You got it backward Les! Hagee’s group gave Wiesel $500,000 not vice versa. Why this need to deny that Christian Zionism is a major factor in American politics?

      • Les says:

        I was wrong about who got the money in this case. Christian Zionists are drawn from what used to be called white racists. I don’t believe serious numbers of those congregants would knowingly donate serious money on their own to benefit Jews. Anti-Semitism is still a form of racism whether directed against Jews (including those who are not Semites) or Arabs or Iranians.

        • Citizen says:

          Les, those Christian Zionists gave $9M to Israel; read the hot links above. This duping of poor ignorant Christian fundies has been going on in the open for many years now–here’s some data from when Joe Lieberman was running for VP–the media back then never even asked him about his entanglement with the Hagee folks: link to forums.catholic.com

          The commericals of the type mentioned in the link are still running; to “save poor mistreated old Russian Jews,” more recently I saw them every night during the Glen Beck show run; and most recently on the Fox cable news show in the evening. They also run on my local Jewish cable channel. Lots of Christian fundies with barely the proverbial pot to piss in donate to Hagee type ministries. They would gladly reinsitute the military draft and send a whole generation of American young to go fight with Israel whenever Israel wanted because they think God told them to always support Israel right or wrong and no matter what the cost. The cost would be nothing to them since they would get supreme reward to sit next to God in heaven.

        • tombishop says:

          Writing off Christian Zionism as the position of ignorant, racist rednecks is too simplistic. There is a significant contigent of Christian Zionists in the Africa-American Church, for example.

          Christian Zionism has a 200 year history and was very involved in promoting the establishment of Israel. Most important in the 20th Century was the Scofield Reference Bible (look it up on Wikipedia) which used footnotes to tie together Biblical narratives separated by centuries but gave believers the impression they all connect into a Christian Zionist narrative.

    • YaelKahn says:

      Many anti-Semites love Zionism and the Zionists always been closely linked with anti-Semites – they share their racist views.
      Not surprisingly, the anti-Semite Hagee is the darling of the Israeli regime. For example, Netanyahu welcomed Hagee in person only a month ago, on 18 March 2012 – see at:
      http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?ID=262371&R=R1

  37. Ira Glunts says:

    I agree that the good outweighs the bad here and that rejoicing is warranted. I congratulate 60 Minutes for being able to air even this limited criticism of the Israelis after what I am sure must have been a long and tedious negotiation with the Israeli Embassy and upper management at CBS.

    The Israeli Embassy claims that their intervention was successful in getting their point of view included. They apparently got Oren on the show. However, the Israelis paid a price when Simon exposed the embassy’s undiplomatic intervention. Maybe the Israelis got the Shavit “collateral damage” part thrown in. It was actually pretty lame but the “reasonable” Israeli good guy is a valuable hasbara gambit, even if the argument isn’t usually that reasonable or the guy all that good.

    The Israelis wanted the show to include some pro-Israel Christian Palestinians for balance (see link below). At least, this suggestion was not taken.

    Check out this Ha’aretz report on the show.
    link to haaretz.com

    At the Israeli Embassy, the final report was seen as sort of diplomatic victory, and the ambassador’s attempt to intervene was presented as a fine example of a pro-active approach to Israeli diplomacy. “The relationship between Israel and the Christian world is our strategic interest and when we received information about this report several months ago and plans for broadcasting without any reaction by Israeli officials, Ambassador Oren did what a diplomat is supposed to do to prevent serious damage to the country he represents,” a senior Israeli diplomat told Haaretz.

  38. ahadhaadam says:

    The Hasbara wheels are coming off… the achiles heel, as Jonathan Cook notes in his book “Disappearing Palestine” is the existence of a Palestinian Christian minority which is dispossessed and oppressed equally by Israel and which has taken full part in resistance movements against Israel. This of course blows to bits the narrative which Israel has been carefully crafting for Western audiences of “enlightened Israel, part of the West, in a war against evil Muslims”.

    Of course the fact that a large part of the West still views it through the distorted Israeli lens is an astonishing demonstration how the West’s perception of the issue is shaped by Israel and is viewed mostly through Israeli eyes.

  39. Kathleen says:

    All one would need to do is ask Micheal Oren the logical challenging question after he repeats inflammatory rhetoric over and over again. Generally does not happen. Great that 60 minutes has finally been covering the issue and challenging Oren. New territory for them the last few years. As is always the case better late than never

    Have heard him repeat totally untrue statements on NPR with Richard Siegel and have never ever heard Siegel, Diane Rehm etc ever challenge Orens standard lines about the I/P conflict or Iran

  40. Elliot says:

    Mayhem:
    In December 2009, the Central Conference of American Rabbis characterized the Kairos document as supercessionist and anti-Semitic, declaring that “those who would associate themselves with this document and the religious foundation upon which it is based would be erasing years of Christian soul searching and repentance as if they had not been. We expect more from our interfaith partners.”

    Christianity is supercessionist. Rabbinic Judaism is supercessionist. Every new religion is supercessionist. If they weren’t supercessionist then they would have been happy with the old model.
    The rabbis at the Central Conference of Rabbis are disingenuously using an old complaint to score new points.
    The Rabbis’ end with a thinly-veiled threat: if you Christians fail to tow the line, we Jews will stop playing nice with you. Oh and we will label you anti-Semites to boot.
    So Western Christians can choose to act in solidarity with their Palestinian coreligionists (and common decency) and lose their Jewish friends or stick with the Jews.

    • hophmi says:

      “Christianity is supercessionist. Rabbinic Judaism is supercessionist. ”

      I think it is relevant to point out both that Judaism is not supercessionist, and that Christian supercessionism posits that Christianity superceded Judaism, a theology that has led to a hell of a lot of persecution.

      That said, I don’t think the Kairos document is an endorsement of supercessionism.

      • Elliot says:

        Thank you for that. Since you don’t share the Rabbis’ objection to Kairos, so you accept Kairos as a legitimate expression of Palestinian will and a vision that Israelis can embrace?

        On the historical stuff, rabbinic Judaism superceded the Bible and temple cult, explaining huge swathes of it out of existence. Of course, it helped that there was no temple around and no working priests to offend.

        As a Jew, I don’t care that Christians today believe they superceded the Jewish vision. I would hope they don’t care about some ideas I have about their beliefs. If supercessionism doesn’t imply persecution, why shouldn’t Palestinian Christians have their supercession ideology too? It’s religion after all. They’re allowed to believe they’re right.

      • Hostage says:

        I think it is relevant to point out both that Judaism is not supercessionist

        Unless of course you count the positive commandment regarding the destruction of the Seven Canaanite Nations or the fact that the Israeli Antiquities Authority has carried-out decades-long excavations on Mt. Gerizim which indicate that the Samaritan Temple to El/Yahweh pre-dated the one in Jerusalem:

        The Jews had significant competition in antiquity when it came to worshipping Yahweh. Archeologists have discovered a second great temple not far from Jerusalem that predates its better known cousin. It belonged to the Samaritans, and may have been edited out of the Bible once the rivalry had been decided.

        link to spiegel.de

        • hophmi says:

          I don’t. Supercessionism is a Christian ideology.

          link to en.wikipedia.org

        • Hostage says:

          I don’t. Supercessionism is a Christian ideology. link to en.wikipedia.org

          I don’t think Jimbo Wales or the Wikipedia Help Desk grok any of the sages. Rashi employs the principle of supercessionism in his commentary on the very first verse of the Torah:

          Bereishit – Genesis – Chapter 1:1. In the beginning of God’s creation of the heavens and the earth

          In the beginning: Said Rabbi Isaac: It was not necessary to begin the Torah except from “This month is to you,” (Exod. 12:2) which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded, (for the main purpose of the Torah is its commandments, and although several commandments are found in Genesis, e.g., circumcision and the prohibition of eating the thigh sinew, they could have been included together with the other commandments). Now for what reason did He commence with “In the beginning?” Because of [the verse] “The strength of His works He related to His people, to give them the inheritance of the nations” (Ps. 111:6). For if the nations of the world should say to Israel, “You are robbers, for you conquered by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan],” they will reply, “The entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it (this we learn from the story of the Creation) and gave it to whomever He deemed proper When He wished, He gave it to them, and when He wished, He took it away from them and gave it to us.

          So according to Rashi and the Judaica Press, you too can practice supercessionism without converting to Christianity.

        • hophmi says:

          Whatever you want to believe, Hostage. The doctrine of supercessionism is, exactly as I said, a Christian theological concept that generally holds that Christians replaced the Jews as G-d’s chosen. It’s also often referred to replacement theology. Making some wiseass crack about Jimmy Wales is not going to change that. There are plenty of places besides wikipedia where you can look it up. None suggest it is a concept in Judaism.

          Supercessionism as a theology unfortunately served as a basis for a great deal of persecution during the last millenium, since, unlike the nations mentioned in the biblical excerpt you quote, Jews have been very much a real and identifiable people for the last 2000 years and more. So the comparison is not well-taken.

          If you want to assign some term to the concept quoted in the Rashi above, feel free. It is not supercessionism.

        • The doctrine of supercessionism is, exactly as I said, a Christian theological concept that generally holds that Christians replaced the Jews as G-d’s chosen. It’s also often referred to replacement theology.

          hophmi, to ‘replace’ wouldn’t one have to first accept the premise jews were originally god’s chosen? is that something all christians believe? i really don’t know. and since there are different interpretations of what chosen means, how might that impact your statement.

        • hophmi says:

          “hophmi, to ‘replace’ wouldn’t one have to first accept the premise jews were originally god’s chosen?”

          Yes, though, again, supercessionism has a distinct meaning. Generally, the theology holds that G-d made a “new covenant” with Christians that replaced the one he had with the Israelites. Again, this is a real theology, which has had very unfortunate and documented applications over the centuries. It’s different from the biblical notion of Jews conquering the land of Canaan as explained by Rashi. Jews do not posit that their covenant with G-d replaced someone else’s, and that thus, they must persecute whomever they replaced. Though the Bible’s command to wipe out the seven nations that inhabit Canaan is definitely one of its theological challenges, it has not had any real world application I know of; these nations do not exist today, and it’s a stretch to argue that they ever existed.

          Supercessionism, on the other hand, has been a part of Christian theology for 1500 years, and has provided a theological basis for all manner of persecution of Jews, mostly by the Church, de facto and de jure. Because the Christians had replaced the Jews, that Christianity offered the only road to salvation, and thus, the Jews had to occupy an inferior status in Christian society.

          “is that something all christians believe? ”

          Replacement theology was certainly widely believed in the Catholic Church, at least until Vatican II. Vatican II essentially rejected the teaching that only Christians could be saved, and that Jews had no covenant with G-d. Read the wikipedia article; it discusses how different sects view supercessionism and its history.

        • Hostage says:

          Yes, though, again, supercessionism has a distinct meaning. Generally, the theology holds that G-d made a “new covenant” with Christians that replaced the one he had with the Israelites. Again, this is a real theology, which has had very unfortunate and documented applications over the centuries. It’s different from the biblical notion of Jews conquering the land of Canaan as explained by Rashi.

          Not it’s not. God had a Noahide covenant with everyone and it got replaced by the better one Israel received when we were given “the inheritance of the nations”, instead of the intended recipients:

          The barbarian Gentiles who could not be prevailed upon to observe law and order were not to be benefited by the Jewish civil laws, framed to regulate a stable and orderly society, and based on reciprocity. The passage in Moses’ farewell address: “The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from Mount Paran” (Deut. xxxiii. 2), indicates that the Almighty offered the Torah to the Gentile nations also, but, since they refused to accept it. He withdrew His “shining” legal protection from them, and transferred their property rights to Israel, who observed His Law. A passage of Habakkuk is quoted as confirming this claim: “God came from Teman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran. . . . He stood, and measured the earth; he beheld, and drove asunder [ = "let loose," "outlawed"] the nations” (Hab. iii. 3-6); the Talmud adds that He had observed how the Gentile nations steadfastly refused to obey the seven moral Noachian precepts, and hence had decided to outlaw them (B. Ḳ. 38a).

          –See the entry for Gentile @ the Jewish Encyclopedia.
          link to jewishencyclopedia.com

          According to the Talmud, the souls of all converts were actually present at Mount Sinai when the torah was given (Talmud – Shavuot 39a). link to judaism.about.com

          Though the Bible’s command to wipe out the seven nations that inhabit Canaan is definitely one of its theological challenges, it has not had any real world application I know of; these nations do not exist today, and it’s a stretch to argue that they ever existed.

          That may be true, but from the Orthodox Jewish theological perspective, it’s completely untenable to admit the possibility that the 7 Nations didn’t exist.

        • hophmi says:

          “Not it’s not. God had a Noahide covenant with everyone and it got replaced by the better one Israel received when we were given “the inheritance of the nations”, instead of the intended recipients:”

          Sigh. Believe what you want, Hostage. You can say up is down and down is up if you want.

          The Jewish Encyclopedia is from 1906. You quote one paragraph from a very, very long entry. The paragraph is a Talmudic quote and is a midrash about how G-d offered other nations the Torah and they declined to accept it. It is not presented as a statement of historical truth or of Jewish theology. Even if it were taken as true, it does not posit that Jewish law superceded Noahide law.

          It simply is not a part of Jewish theology nor a central idea that G-d’s covenant with the Jewish people superceded that of another religion or people.

          “According to the Talmud, the souls of all converts were actually present at Mount Sinai when the torah was given (Talmud – Shavuot 39a). ”

          OK. I’m not sure what that mystical belief has to do with supercessionism.

          “That may be true, but from the Orthodox Jewish theological perspective, it’s completely untenable to admit the possibility that the 7 Nations didn’t exist.”

          Again, it’s really beside the point. There is no actual history of Jews persecuting those nations, and no stream of Judaism that I know of that draws a modern lesson from this passage that others should be persecuted based on the idea that Jews superceded them.

          The theology of supercession, a Christian doctrine, exclusive to Christianity, and for centuries central to Christian theology (and still in some ways central today in more benign ways), has been responsible for the murder and maiming of countless Jews over the centuries, which is why it was more or less repealed by Vatican II.

        • Elliot says:

          Though the Bible’s command to wipe out the seven nations that inhabit Canaan is definitely one of its theological challenges, it has not had any real world application I know of

          Hophmi – you make the wildest claims. Check this out.

          Deutonomy 7: 1 – 2
          When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

          Settler (Kook) theology takes the Bible’s attitudes to the primordial indigenous peoples and applies them to the Palestinians. “Nor shew mercy upon them” hase wide currency in Israeli settler circles as a practical directive.

          This is just one example of this attitude echoed in Rashi’s first comment on the Bible. Since the rest of the Jewish people has either actively endorsed or turned a blind eye to the disposession by Jews of West Bank Palestinians done in the name of Judaism, I think the case can be made that, by your definition: Judaism = supercessionism.

        • Hostage says:

          Sigh. Believe what you want, Hostage. You can say up is down and down is up if you want. . . . The Jewish Encyclopedia is from 1906

          Hophmi the readers can see for themselves that Rashi and the Jewish Encyclopedia are both talking about replacement theology in which God gave Israel the inheritance of the other nations. You’re simply proving that you either don’t know what you’re talking about or that you’re deliberately trying to misrepresent an aspect of Jewish theology which unabashedly claims that Jews and converts have a superior covenantal relationship with God than the rest of mankind, who can’t even keep the commandments of their inferior Noahide covenant.

          Again, it’s really beside the point. There is no actual history of Jews persecuting those nations, and no stream of Judaism that I know of that draws a modern lesson from this passage that others should be persecuted based on the idea that Jews superceded them.

          Hell even Jeffrey Goldberg has met Kahanists and admits that they exist and persecute Palestinians, e.g. link to jeffreygoldberg.net

          Here is Rabbi Kahane’s commentary on Rashi and Genesis 1:1, try to get some clue regarding his message on the infinite goodness entailed in the death of the wicked:

          Likewise, the Midrash says (Bereshit Rabbah, 1:2), “It was so that the nations would not castigate Israel and call them “a nation of plunderers”. R. Yitzchak did not say there, “because of the seven nations” but rather, “the nations of the world”, to inform us that all of the nations will join those nations who once inhabited the Land, be they the seven nations or Ishmaelites, with the claim that Israel are thieves and plunderers, and on that day, Israel shall stand alone. It follows that those same laws that applied to the seven nations [that is, to remove them from the Land] apply to all the nations that live in Eretz Yisrael in every age. This includes those of our age, who view Eretz Yisrael as their own land and soil, and who view the Jewish People as a nation of conquerers, robbers and thieves.

          After all, what difference is there as far as G-d’s warning that “those who remain shall be barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides, causing you troubles in the land” (Num. 33:55), between the seven nations and between any nations that dwells in the Land, views it as its own, and then Israel come and conquer it from them? Surely it will feel that same hatred and that same fierce will for revenge as did the seven nations. This logic appears already in Or HaChaim (Num. 33:52): “You must drive out”: Although the verse said of the seven nations, “You shall not allow any people to remain alive” (Deut. 20:16), here, the Torah is talking about other nations found there besides the seven. It therefore was careful to say, “all the Land’s inhabitants”, meaning, even those not of the seven. They, too, will always harbor resentment against Israel and will never resign themselves to us, but will await the “right” moment to rebel. As for their ostensibly having submitted nowadays, that is only out of fear and the inability to claim victory for the time being.

          Abraham, out of his mercy and kindness, did not wish to see the evil done by Ishmael, especially with him being his son. G-d therefore had to command him, “Let it not be grievous in your sight because of the lad” (Gen. 21:12). Mercy towards the cruel is not a good trait. Quite the opposite, one is duty-bound to separate oneself from the evildoer even if this is a difficult step, and even if it appears cruel. There can be no coexistence between evil and upright people – only separation. [Likewise,] the death of the wicked is infinitely preferable to the death of the righteous, and eradicating evil is infinitely superior to eradicating good.

          –Parashat Vayeira – Isaac and Ishmael can’t coexist – Rabbi Meir Kahane link to meir-kahane.angelfire.com

        • hophmi says:

          “Hophmi the readers can see for themselves that Rashi and the Jewish Encyclopedia are both talking about replacement theology in which God gave Israel the inheritance of the other nations. You’re simply proving that you either don’t know what you’re talking about or that you’re deliberately trying to misrepresent an aspect of Jewish theology which unabashedly claims that Jews and converts have a superior covenantal relationship with God than the rest of mankind, who can’t even keep the commandments of their inferior Noahide covenant.”

          No Hostage. You’re simply proving that you can’t accept the simple definition of the term and that you’ll do anything to make the Jewish religion look bad. There is no replacement theology in Judaism.

          Positing a “superior covenantal relationship” (whatever that means) is very, very different from positing the one covenantal relationship replaced another in the way supercessionism did for around 1500 years.

          You can also do things like quote Meir Kahane. It means nothing. Kahane is one rabbi, not a mainstream Jewish theologian. His theology is a sideshow. Supercessionism was the main event in Catholicism until 1964. Countless numbers of my people died because of it.

          No matter how much you try, you’re not going to prove that Jews practice a replacement theology or that Jews believe in a form of supercessionism. It simply doesn’t exist in the religion.

        • You can also do things like quote Meir Kahane. It means nothing. Kahane is one rabbi, not a mainstream Jewish theologian.

          iow you are saying you represent the mainstream and concede there may be other rabbis who interpret things differently. kahane has hundreds of thousands of followers, upwards of 500,000. i am not saying he is mainstream, but that is not one isolated fruitcake. or do you still think it ‘means nothing’ regardless of how many believe something as long as the rabbis are not mainstream?

        • hophmi says:

          No. I’m saying that people follow Kahane the nationalist, not Kahane the rabbi. Citing his religious writing is not proof that Judaism is supercessionist (though even if he were mainstream it wouldn’t make the case).

        • hophmi says:

          You cite Deuteronomy, which you reject as historical truth. I cite Christian persecution of Jews during the Middle Ages, which is historical truth.

          I’m tired of this nonsense. Supercessionism is a Christian concept. There is no debate about that fact.

        • Hostage says:

          No. I’m saying that people follow Kahane the nationalist, not Kahane the rabbi

          How convenient. Why do you suppose they are attacking Churches instead of foreign embassy offices? BTW, just how the hell would you know? Earlier in the day you claimed to be completely unaware of any possible application of this theological teaching regarding the applicability of the commandments regarding the 7 Nations to other Gentile nationalities who might consider Israel their home.

          Kahane represented enough national religious fanatics to hold down a seat in the Israeli Knesset several decades ago when the settlement movement was in its fledgling stages. His disciples are running the governing coalition these days. In several of the attacks on Churches mentioned above, the perpetrators deliberately left behind “Kahane was right” calling cards.

        • Hostage says:

          You cite Deuteronomy, which you reject as historical truth. I cite Christian persecution of Jews during the Middle Ages, which is historical truth.

          I actually cited the theology of Rabbi Meir Kahane. He’s a bit more up-to-date than the Middle Ages. See Kahane was Right? Most Jews Think It’s OK to Prod Arabs to Go — In a poll of Jewish public, 53% say that the state is entitled to encourage Arabs to emigrate from Israel. Haredis most ‘nationalistic’ group.
          link to israelnationalnews.com

        • hophmi says:

          “Earlier in the day you claimed to be completely unaware of any possible application of this theological teaching regarding the applicability of the commandments regarding the 7 Nations to other Gentile nationalities who might consider Israel their home. ”

          You’ve not remotely shown how that teaching is applied today. You’ve simply posted a Rashi and made the leap that because the community of religious fanatics in the West Bank don’t like the Palestinians (who have repeatedly killed their children in an internecine war), it must be an application of this teaching, which you continuously and erroneously refer to as supercessionism.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “…religious fanatics in the West Bank don’t like the Palestinians (who have repeatedly killed their children in an internecine war)…”

          Wow, what a disgusting way to excuse theft and murder by these settler bastards.

    • Fredblogs says:

      Well, no actually. Jews allow converts, but we do not seek them out. We do not see our religion as superceding any other. We see it as the right religion for Jews, not the right religion for everybody, which is how supercessionist Christians see their religion. They think it should replace Judaism instead of living in peace with it.

      • Elliot says:

        Fredblogs –
        I will address one of your assertions here. For the others, you should take the advice that others have given you and read the Mondoweiss archives.

        Who is the “they” you expansively accuse of not wanting to live in peace with Judaism? That is certainly not true of the authors of the Kairos document that others here have labelled as anti-Semitic. If you have any reason to think otherwise please post your source, rather than try to smear Palestinian Christians with a spurious accusation.

    • RoHa says:

      Toe the line.

  41. Citizen says:

    MJ Rosenberg sullied his pants when he found out the entire jewish establishment in USA–with branches in every US city, not just AIPAC, tried to stop 60 Minutes from airing the subject show:
    link to mjayrosenberg.com

    • Walid says:

      Citizen, this is bigger than I thought.

    • hophmi says:

      Except that the Federation letter does not say anything like that. It encourages people to contact CBS after the program has been aired if it is what they think it is. How is that an attempt to keep it from airing?

      • Citizen says:

        Wow, hophmi, that’s a consolation! It was too late to stop the show but the Federation coxed all letter recipients to spread the world to get on the horn blasting CBS with enraged hasbara and smoke screens as soon as the show commenced to air or at least right after it aired–all before the showed started to actually air, before they had a clue about the contents. Actually the show was nice to Israel; CBS had Oren on the spot and easily could have made him look a lot more foolish by tossing out a few facts never heard on MSM. They didn’t even show the woman talking about BDS on the 15 min segment.

      • Hostage says:

        It encourages people to contact CBS after the program has been aired if it is what they think it is. How is that an attempt to keep it from airing?

        Hophmi no one takes your questions seriously. We’re talking about efforts to intimidate the network or its advertisers over a pretty tame news report which explains why Arab Christians might be leaving Israel and Palestine.

        Mondoweiss readers have seen: videos of Jews marching through the streets of Jerusalem chanting death to the Arabs and proudly showing-off their racist dark side at a Jerusalem Mall after a soccer match. The state is evicting Arab families from their neighborhoods in East Jerusalem to make way for radical Jewish settlers. We’ve seen videos of those same settlers celebrating Purim by singing the praises of Baruch Goldstein and his efforts to shoot and kill Arabs.

        A long list of the country’s leading Rabbis have signed threatening letters to their communities demanding that landlords and business owners deny Arabs housing and employment. Similar efforts have been undertaken by local authorities to establish special teams of youth counselors and psychologists whose job is to identify young Jewish women who are dating Arab men and “rescue” them. link to articles.cnn.com
        link to thenational.ae

        The major Israeli newspapers have all published reports which say the majority of Jewish high school students oppose equal rights for Arabs.
        link to haaretz.com

        Other polls show that the majority of Jews believe the state has the right to strip Arabs of their citizenship, redraw the country’s borders to keep Arabs out, or to take action to prod Arabs to emigrate to other countries, e.g. link to israelnationalnews.com

        Wikileaks has published cables which illustrate that the US State Department is aware of long term efforts on the part of the government and private groups to deny entitlements to Christians and Messianic believers and to uproot their communities in Israel.

        It’s remarkable that Bob Simon and CBS didn’t mention all of that in their report on the vanishing Christian population of the Holy Land. The Jewish Federation of America should be asking its members to don sackcloth and ashes. It shouldn’t be encouraging them to compound the problem by making a nuisance out of themselves in order to send emails or place phone calls to CBS expressing mock outrage.

        • seanmcbride says:

          Hostage,

          Hophmi is completely impervious to all the well-documented facts that you and others bring to his attention — repeatedly in this discussion he has failed to respond to or even acknowledge these facts.

          Hophmi is an ethno-religious nationalist cultist. Cultists by definition are only interested in using information to prop up their irrational and indefensible beliefs — they do not use facts about the world to search out the truth with an open mind.

        • hophmi says:

          “Hophmi no one takes your questions seriously. ”

          Well, it’s real easy to ignore the questions of dissenters. Why challenge your assumptions?

          “We’re talking about efforts to intimidate the network or its advertisers over a pretty tame news report which explains why Arab Christians might be leaving Israel and Palestine. ”

          Intimidation? What kind? So far all I’ve heard is that the Ambassador called CBS News to complain. Is complaining the same thing as intimidation now? Let’s redefine another word.

          And what intimidation it was. It seems to have had no effect, probably because it wasn’t an intimidating call.

          “Mondoweiss readers have seen: videos of Jews marching through the streets of Jerusalem chanting death to the Arabs and proudly showing-off their racist dark side at a Jerusalem Mall after a soccer match. ”

          Yes, they have. Have they seen the videos of Arabs chanting anti-Jewish slogans and Arab clerics comparing Jews to pigs and monkeys?

          “We’ve seen videos of those same settlers celebrating Purim by singing the praises of Baruch Goldstein and his efforts to shoot and kill Arabs. ”

          Yes, there are fanatics in Israel. In Egypt, their equivalent represents the strongest political party in the country. In Palestine, their equivalent won a democratic election in 2006.

          “The major Israeli newspapers have all published reports which say the majority of Jewish high school students oppose equal rights for Arabs.”

          An unfortunate byproduct of what happens when a terrorist group sends in suicide bombers to kill your civilians and pronounces all Israeli civilians as Zionist soldiers and thus legitimate targets. link to forward.com
          “Other polls show that the majority of Jews believe the state has the right to strip Arabs of their citizenship, redraw the country’s borders to keep Arabs out, or to take action to prod Arabs to emigrate to other countries”

          As usually, you’re lying. The poll said most Jews think the state is entitled to encourage Arabs to emigrate, not that the state has the right to strip them of citizenship or redraw borders.

          “It’s remarkable that Bob Simon and CBS didn’t mention all of that in their report on the vanishing Christian population of the Holy Land. ”

          Well, messianists are not a big part of the Christian population in Israel, and given the history of Christian missionizing and the dishonesty of campaigns like Jews for Jesus, in which Christian fundamentalists fund a group of Christians that they call Jews, I can see why Israel would restrict it. Not every country has to protect the right of missionaries to bother people. Would you like to make an argument that Christian missionary activity toward Jews has been historically been positive? Would you like to tell me how Christians are doing in the Muslim world?

          Maybe you should take a trip to Northern Nigeria.

          link to christianpost.com

        • hophmi says:

          “Hophmi is completely impervious to all the well-documented facts that you and others bring to his attention — repeatedly in this discussion he has failed to respond to or even acknowledge these facts.”

          I’m not impervious to Hostages, um, “facts.”

          He simply hasn’t made his case. He said that rabbis frequently burn Christian holy books in Israel. He hasn’t substantiated that claim, not remotely. He said that churches are frequently targetted for arson, graffiti, and stoning. He hasn’t substantiated that claim either.

          Most of his chronology comes from a book by a PLO diplomat that accuses the Jews of starting WWII, not from news articles or first-hand accounts.

          “Hophmi is an ethno-religious nationalist cultist.”

          You’re a BDS cultist antisemite.

          “Cultists by definition are only interested in using information to prop up their irrational and indefensible beliefs”

          Exactly as you do.

          “they do not use facts about the world to search out the truth with an open mind.”

          They use lists of Jews to make antisemitic arguments (calling them arguments is far too generous) about Jewish power in society.

        • seanmcbride says:

          hophmi,

          How is it “antisemitic” to point out that an amazingly high number of Washington Post writers are Jewish ethnic nationalists who agitated for the Iraq War and who are now agitating for an Iran War? You haven’t managed to rebut a single factual statement on this matter.

          And is it “antisemitic” to point out that Jewish ethnic nationalists are vastly overrepresented in mainstream media outlets like the Washington Post and New York Times compared to other ethnic nationalist groups in the United States? Why is this happening?

          You repeatedly fall back on the antisemitism smear in these discussions because you can’t analyze these issues in a rational, factual and fair-minded way. You are yourself an emotional and zealous true believer in Jewish ethnic nationalism.

          Pro-Israel activists and Jewish nationalists like yourself are abusive, evasive, fact-challenged, intellectually dishonest, irrational, manipulative, overbearing, paranoid, self-obsessed, shrill, slippery and xenophobic. You have turned most of the world against Israel and against your narrow cause. Many Jews are beginning to figure out that this is a dead end ideological movement that is going to turn out to be a catastrophe for all concerned.

        • seanmcbride says:

          hophmi,

          Which political issues do you care about more than Israel and conflicts with your ethnic, religious and national enemies?

          And my deep insight of the day about basic human nature:

          Any expression of ethnic or religious nationalism whatever is an irritant and provocation to ethnic and religious outsiders.

        • hophmi says:

          “How is it “antisemitic” to point out that an amazingly high number of Washington Post writers are Jewish ethnic nationalists who agitated for the Iraq War and who are now agitating for an Iran War?”

          You have David Broder on the list; he’s dead. You have Peter Beinart on the list; he’s certainly not a supporter of going to war with Iran.

          The general, though is antisemitic, because there are plenty of non-Jewish writers supporting retaining the military option with Iran as well. You conjecture, based on nothing other than the religion of the writers, that Jews must support a position because they are Jews, but apparently, non-Jews support it for other reasons. So whatever it is, if you don’t like it, and a Jew supports it, it must be because of religion, not because the person genuinely believes it’s good foreign policy. These guys are all foreign policy hawks. They are not the only foreign policy hawks in America.

          You’ve presented no facts. Only a list and conjecture.

        • hophmi says:

          “Which political issues do you care about more than Israel and conflicts with your ethnic, religious and national enemies?”

          Eh? I’m voting for Obama. My major issues are all over the place, from the economy, to social libertarianism, to human rights, to the foreign aid budget, to immigration policy.

          I don’t have any ethnic, religious, or national enemies.

        • eGuard says:

          hophmi: You have David Broder on the list; he’s dead and You have Peter Beinart on the list; he’s certainly not a supporter of going to war with Iran.

          Well, the list is titled: “*ethnic nationalist* Jews who have written for the Washington Post”. So, what is wrong? (answer: hophmi’s logic).

        • seanmcbride says:

          hophmi,

          You wrote:

          “You conjecture, based on nothing other than the religion of the writers, that Jews must support a position because they are Jews…”

          You are either extraordinarily stupid or extraordinarily deceitful. It has been pointed out to you over and over again that Jewish neoconservatives and Jewish Likud Zionists are not being singled out for their religious backgrounds or affiliations but for their *political* beliefs as explicitly stated by themselves in their public writings.

          Jewish neoconservatives and Jewish Likud Zionists define themselves — by their own free will and in their own words — as Jewish ethnic nationalists — which is something much more narrow than being a Jew or Jewish religionist. They are ideologues of a particular well-known type by their own choice. They own those beliefs and have to take responsibility for them. They have to defend their beliefs in free and open debate in democratic societies and can’t evade those debates by the cowardly recourse to the antisemitism smear.

          You continue to ignore these points and push ahead with the same nonsense. Why do you do this?

          You come across as a person whose mind has been severely addled and disordered by ethnic cultism and magical thinking. Nothing you say makes any sense at all — you are trapped in a weird psychological and mental bubble and don’t realize it. The sole effect of your confused efforts here is to further turn reasonable people away from Israel.

        • seanmcbride says:

          eGuard,

          Hophmi seems to be swimming in a sea of perpetual delirium. It is impossible to communicate rationally with him. He makes far too many errors in basic logic to bother even trying to clean them up.

          His pattern is to try to say something — anything — about as many points as possible without making any effort to check his statements for factual grounding or logic. He is much too intellectually lazy to bother. He’s got his cult beliefs and he’s going to defend them no matter what. There is something childish about his persona.

          As for David Broder — you get it. He was a prominent Washington Post writer and he was in fact a Jewish ethnic nationalist. The Washington Post is swarming with them. Ethnic nationalists from other ethnic groups need not apply.

        • Miriam says:

          —- No hasbara effort can deny what is happening to Israel. It is becoming more and more of an ethnocentric, contrarian religious community with a shortening fuse and no tolerance or patience for any scrap of criticism or independent thought that doesn’t line up with the most extreme marker on the right.
          Israel is perceived as a brutal state living in well-fanned hysteria and existential anxiety, which sees any political process as a conspiracy, any move on the ground as a justification for war and any criticism as an anti-Semitic campaign.
          —- anything that in some way benefits the Palestinians is perceived as a threat… Any act of protest is considered an “airlift” by the Luftwaffe or a terrifying “flotilla” in the style of the Spanish armada, and every foreign observer is perceived as an enemy requiring an “operation” and a “confrontation.” How does neurotic sensitivity like this accord with the apparent readiness for eternal war? Perhaps the psychiatrist of “The Big Brother” reality show has answers.
          —Israel appears enclosed in a bizarre egocentric bubble: -instead of a sense of strength and some calm, fears are seething and jumpiness and violence are bubbling over.
          Israel just seems to be waiting in ambush for any threat or criticism of it so it can pounce on its critics and then wait for the next provocation.
          —-This dissonant bubble – perhaps produced by the prime minister’s personality and his leadership – cannot continue to exist in the long run. One day it will crack and break open: with a bang or a whimper, from within or without.
          But – paraphrase Netanyahu’s remarks: “If we discount the Arabs, the ultra-Orthodox, the Palestinians, Gush Dan, the demonstrators, the left, the center, Haaretz, The New York Times, Channel 10, Europe, Asia, Africa, U.S. President Barack Obama, the present and the future – our situation has never been better.”
          (more later)…..

        • eljay says:

          >> It has been pointed out to you over and over again that Jewish neoconservatives and Jewish Likud Zionists are not being singled out for their religious backgrounds or affiliations but for their *political* beliefs as explicitly stated by themselves in their public writings.

          I find it amusing that by attaching religion to every mention of Jewish, hophmi works to undermine what his Zio-supremacist co-collectivists – including atheist Jews like eee – have said and continue to say (most often in defence of the accusation that a “Jewish state” is, in fact, a religion-supremacist state): Jewish is a nation, a people, an ethnicity, a culture, a community and a tradition.

        • Miriam says:

          before any eruptions over the anti Israel anti semitic screed I just posted above by hophmi or any other hasbaRat….this is to inform readers that those words are not my own but were published in an opinion column in Haaretz today. As Kathleen wrote….better late than never.
          But never in the NYT/WP/LAT/NBC/CNN/ABC/ad nauseum.

        • Hostage says:

          Most of his chronology comes from a book by a PLO diplomat that accuses the Jews of starting WWII, not from news articles or first-hand accounts.

          A couple of corrections are in order. You and CAMERA have resorted to the use of straw man attacks against the author of The Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem in order to discredit the compilation of documentary evidence that it contains.

          The author does NOT accuse the Jews of starting WWII. His very first comment in the preface spells-out the causus belli:

          Before and during World War II millions of gentiles, including Poles, Dutch, Norwegians, French, Serbs, Greeks, Russians, Ukrainians, Germans, Austrians, and others, as well as Jews, were imprisoned, tortured, put in concentration camps and robbed of their worldly possessions by the Nazis.

          He goes on to note that a worldwide conference of Jews from around the globe declared war against Germany and that the Jewish leadership opposed efforts to negotiate a solution by peaceful means. He provides anecdotal evidence which shows that Jewish leaders applied political pressure to go to war and prosecute the Nazi war criminals. He provides evidence to support all of his claims. His bottom line is that when Palestinians act the very same way with respect to peace proposals and the crimes committed by Zionists against the people of Palestine, the victims are branded as terrorists.

          FYI, like it or not, the behavior that he is describing is mirrored in the posture of the Israel Lobby and the State Israel today with respect to Iran. For at least the last decade, they have chosen to push for the US and other countries to implement blockades, economic sanctions, bombing of nuclear facilities, and other acts of war in response to Iran’s military alliances in the region, the supposed threat from Iran’s weapons programs, and Iran’s alleged support for terrorists.

          The Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem has Forewords written by two very well respected experts in the fields of international law and international human rights, Profs John Quigley and Francis Boyle. Neither of them have anything but praise for the well documented evidence it presents.

        • Citizen says:

          So, there’s no group or organization that uses lists of Jews to make everybody know how wonderful the Jews are as massive positive contributors to the whole world? And if somebody objects that, while the list shows this, there’s another list of Jews that show as a whole, there’s lots to not honor about the Jews viewed as a collective? What happens to those objectors? They are dismissed as jew-haters, to divert attention from the negative list. The idea that Jews only want to be treated like any human, and Israel, to be treated like any nation state–means take the lumps along with gravy. So far, the Establishment Jews in around the world only want the gravy. I guess that’s their job. Just be aware of it, and don’t get snowed by it. I give the same lesson to all Americans who might actually think their own government is solely devoted to supporting them as US citizens.

        • Hostage says:

          Intimidation? What kind? So far all I’ve heard is that the Ambassador called CBS News to complain. Is complaining the same thing as intimidation now? Let’s redefine another word.

          You’ve commented on threads about the efforts in advance of the broadcast by the Jewish Federation to get its members to phone or email CBS to complain, including my own post that you are dismissing here.

    • ritzl says:

      Thanks. If you click through to the JF letter, the “Resources” they cite at the bottom are all to Likud organ sites that promote the notion of intrinsic Muslim violence. In this case Muslim violence against Palestinian Christians.

      link to jewishfederations.org

      Specifically, the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, Dore Gold – President.

      link to jcpa.org

      It’s pretty sad that, as Rosenberg says, “the official charity arm of the entire Jewish community” would go full-frontal Likud on this.

      • seanmcbride says:

        ritzl,

        You wrote:

        “It’s pretty sad that, as Rosenberg says, “the official charity arm of the entire Jewish community” would go full-frontal Likud on this.”

        The entire Jewish community is going to end up owning the strident ideological Islamophobia of Likud Zionists like Dore Gold and all the crimes that ensue from it.

        • Citizen says:

          Well, seanmcbride, they will have a lot of company when you add up all those Christian fundies who think they hear the voice of God and Jesus in their ear.

      • Citizen says:

        ritzl, the official charity arm of the entire Jewish community supports Israeli lebensraum–and gets to reduce its US tax payments by how much it support this Nazi blood and soil policy. So, the net effect is, 98% of the US population financially supports racist land grabs against fellow non-non Jews in the face of one of the few 10 commandments that has an ethical basis: Thou shalt not steal.

    • Chu says:

      Holy sh*t is an understatement by Rosenberg. Any story about Israel is likely to be damaging because neo-colonialism and a five-decade (approaching 50 years) occupation can only be sugar-coated to such a degree.

      The Pro-Israel American community that supports Israel knows Israel is
      not an majestic ocean liner, but a bloody pirate ship. They just don’t want the secret to get out to the greater American public.

      If that’s not sweet and caring, I dont know what is. Such good people of the book they say.

  42. Kathleen says:

    Bob “I’ve been doing this for a long time” Certainly not doing stories like this. Oh one or two over the last five years. But Bob Simon has not been doing honest reporting on the I/P conflict “for a long time” Not

    Ambassador Oren “there is a first time for everything” You know this is not the first time Oren or other Israeli officials have called executives at the MSM outlets. You know this is not the first time

    • Ira Glunts says:

      You are correct about Simon. He has done some good stories from Israel, but it has not a been all honesty and light. Simon did a segment called “The Israeli Air Force” in 2008 which was an advertisement for an Israeli attack upon Iran. Forget about balanced reporting, this was an “all in” hasbara assault. The segment was shown a couple times that year I believe — complete hasbara — absolutely disgusting. I imagine it was meant to precede the planned Israel attack that summer/fall that never happened. I could not find it on Youtube when I looked today. It is well worth seeing if you can find it.

      About 10 years ago, in a chance telephone conversation with a 60 Minutes producer, who said he knew Simon well, I was told that at that time Simon lived in Israel. I was wondering if anyone else had heard that and if Simon and his wife still have a residence in Israel.

      All in all I was happy to see this piece on Christian Palestinians on 60 Minutes and consider it a small victory in the struggle for human rights and against Israeli oppression.

      Also, thanks to Citizen for the MJ Rosenberg link above. It is amazing the lengths these people will go to…..

      • Kathleen says:

        As Simon said “I have been doing this for a long long time” Which means he has chosen to ignore the human rights abuses that Israel has been committing for a “long long time”
        As is always the case …better late than never. But can not stand when journalist others finally admit and cover what is going on are canonized by others for finally doing the right thing. Has taken Bob Simon a “long, long time” to shed the light on these issues. His silence has been complicity.

        But again better late than never

    • hophmi says:

      “Ambassador Oren “there is a first time for everything” You know this is not the first time Oren or other Israeli officials have called executives at the MSM outlets. You know this is not the first time”

      If you believe Bob Simon when he says that CBS News has never gotten a complaint about a story before it was aired, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. That is definitely among the more ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Yes, there is a first time for everything. This was not one of those times.

      • ahadhaadam says:

        I do believe Simon that it’s the first time. You cannot express opposition to airing something if you don’t know its exact content. For example, let’s say Oren got word that CBS was going to air a segment about the settlements. That could well be a negative for Israel but it’s hard to imagine Oren calling CBS to object. After all, you can assume it will be the typical portrayal of the settlements, mild criticism of the Israeli government, a few bad words about Netanyahu, etc. – these are all mainstream and you can read that in the NYT op-ed columns every other day.

        However, Christian Palestinians is kryptonite to Israeli Hasbara and Oren knows it. First of all, because most people are not aware that Palestinians are also Christian. Second, because it shatters the crafted narrative of “enlightened Israel versus evil Muslims” . In short, it does an enormous damage because it has the power to change the entire perception and narrative. And while Israel can live with Muslim hatred, it cannot survive without the Christian West support.

  43. bijou says:

    Oh my gosh – did you guys catch the very very end?

    “See what the last Christian village in the holy land looks like today. Sponsored by Pfizer.”

    Guys, this is HUGE – a watershed moment. The mainstreaming of the Real Story and it can even be “sponsored by Pfizer!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

    Game changer…. big time.

  44. I wish Simon had had the courage to tell his audience that Oren’s call to Fager, the head of CBS, was a call to a fellow Jew, if only to illustrate the kind of tribal pressures that can be brought to bear on coverage of the Middle East. But then that could have opened a whole can of worms. Before you know it Americans might be told that the Chairman of ABC is Jewish too. And the Chairman of NBC. And the Chairman of CNN.

    And we all know that mentioning that amazing coincidence is “antisemitic.”

    • hophmi says:

      “And we all know that mentioning that amazing coincidence is “antisemitic”

      Pointing out like this, yes, is antisemitic. You insinuate that the fact that they are Jews has something to do with the way the story was reported without alleging any facts that it made any difference. That’s antisemitic.

      And stupid, because it’s not accurate. As far as I know, the Presidents of CNN and NBC News are not Jewish. The only reference I see to Jeff Fager’s Judaism is on Holocaust denial websites.

      • CBS is owned by National Amusements Inc., which is privately held by Sumner Redstone.
        ABC is owned by the Disney Co., whose Chairman & CEO is Robert Iger.
        NBC is majority owned by Comcast Corp., whose Chairman, President, & CEO is Brian L. Roberts.
        CNN is owned by Time Warner Inc., whose Chairman & CEO is Jeffrey Bewkes

        All of the above are Jewish. (The one remaining major news outlet in this country is Fox, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp.) Jews represent 1 1/2% of the U.S. population. You should be celebrating your ethnic success, hophmi, not denying it.

        • hophmi says:

          “All of the above are Jewish. (The one remaining major news outlet in this country is Fox, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp.) Jews represent 1 1/2% of the U.S. population. You should be celebrating your ethnic success, hophmi, not denying it.”

          You’re insinuating that their religion has something to do with the reporting. As I’ve pointed out, most of the heads of the news divisions are not Jewish.

          I won’t engage in this kind of discussion with you.

        • eljay says:

          >> You’re insinuating that their religion has something to do with the reporting.

          PTJ referred to “tribal pressure” and “ethnic success”. Despite the fact…
          - that he very clearly did not refer to religion;
          - that you and your co-collectivists have stated that “Jewish” is a nation, a people, an ethnicity, a culture, a community and a tradition; and
          - that atheist Jews on this site have explained that religion is not an essential part of “Jewish” (otherwise, they couldn’t be both Jews and atheist);
          …here you are steering things back to religion. Again.

          It’s funny how Zio-supremacists have no problem claiming that Arab media sources are biased because of some tribal “Arab nation” thing, but then get all whiny and defensive and accusatory when someone claims that Jewish-owned/-run media sources are biased because of some tribal “Jewish nation” thing.

        • Chu says:

          You won’t engage because your rose-colored glasses are on. It’s what makes Hophmi unique (his complete failure to see the darkness when he’s knee deep in the mud). Just, put on the old shades and sing an Israeli jingle.

          There’s religion and then there is tribal political power structure. Don’t confuse the two concepts. You clearly know the difference.

        • hophmi says:

          I’m not engaging in these debates over who is and who is not Jewish in the media. The original claim was that the “Chairman of ABC is Jewish too. And the Chairman of NBC. And the Chairman of CNN.”

          The clear assumption here that Jews direct and influence the reportage of news at these places. Is this Stormfront.com? Rense? Those are the sites where it’s OK to simply list people who happen to be Jewish to suggest nefarious schemes of Jewish control.

          And in fact, the statement is not true. It’s the chairman of the parents companies that happen to be Jewish.

          Here’s what you said, Chu: “There’s religion and then there is tribal political power structure. Don’t confuse the two concepts. You clearly know the difference.”

          All I know is that people here seem to think it’s OK to present a list of powerful Jews and nothing more in lieu of an argument that the news networks don’t report stories from the point of view they want. That’s not a valid form of argument. It’s the kind of thing bigots do. And just like the bigots, the claim is imprecise; the point is to come up with the list of Jews to fit the theory. So it doesn’t matter if the President of a news org is not Jewish; if the chairman of the parent company is, that’s enough to combine the two and say the chairman of the news org is, because the point is to link Jew to media organization in order to argue that Jew influences media organization in a nefarious way. That’s what’s going on here, Chu.

        • As if ethnicity and religion mean anything, hopmi. I mean we only have to look at how you spend your days to know how silly that is. ;)

        • hophmi says:

          “- that he very clearly did not refer to religion;”

          Didn’t refer to religion? What did he mean when he said the chairmen of ABC, NBC, and CNN were Jewish?

          “It’s funny how Zio-supremacists have no problem claiming that Arab media sources are biased because of some tribal “Arab nation” thing, but then get all whiny and defensive and accusatory when someone claims that Jewish-owned/-run media sources are biased because of some tribal “Jewish nation” thing.”

          Come on. You know very well that arguing a source that is an Arab news source is biased is different from arguing that a source run by a parent company whose CEO is a Jew is biased. That’s comparing apples and oranges. If the President of Time-Warner were an Arab, it would not make CNN an Arab media source. Similarly, the fact that the President of Time-Warner is Jewish does not make CNN a Jewish media source.

        • eljay says:

          >> Didn’t refer to religion?

          That’s right, he didn’t refer to religion. He referred to tribe and ethnicity.

          >> What did he mean when he said the chairmen of ABC, NBC, and CNN were Jewish?

          You’d have to ask him exactly what he meant, but since he referred to tribe and ethnicity, he likely meant that they belonged to the Jewish nation / people / ethnicity / culture / community / tradition.

          And, yet, here you are steering things back to religion. Again.

        • Chu says:

          Grow up Hophmi, Nefarious are your words. You always Jew-count when it supports your arguments, but now that we start to look at who is atop the msm empire you act coy. Let say CBS’s CEO Les Moonves. Sure he may not oversee all of the stories that 60 Minutes runs, but he will install those that are friendly to Israel’s developments (including ignoring stories like the 47 year occupation). If the CEO of a company is a big Texan with and a major oil tycoon, as an employee your not likely to run with big stories of oil corruption in Texas as a reporter there. Don’t play dumb here, it’s lame and you’re older than that.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Didn’t refer to religion? What did he mean when he said the chairmen of ABC, NBC, and CNN were Jewish?”

          Oh, come on, hoppy. Don’t play dumb and pretend that “Jewish” is exclusviely a religious label and does not refer to a nationality or ethnicity.

        • hophmi says:

          “You always Jew-count when it supports your arguments”

          When is that?

          “Sure he may not oversee all of the stories that 60 Minutes runs, but he will install those that are friendly to Israel’s developments (including ignoring stories like the 47 year occupation)”

          A bad example since Bob Simon just did a story on it. Do you have PROOF that he does this because he’s Jewish?

          “Don’t play dumb here, it’s lame and you’re older than that.”

          I’m not playing dumb here; I’m just not accepting your bigotry as truth.

        • hophmi says:

          “Oh, come on, hoppy. Don’t play dumb and pretend that “Jewish” is exclusviely a religious label and does not refer to a nationality or ethnicity.”

          I’m not playing dumb. It’s a completely antisemitic argument. When Wagner wrote his tract on the Jewish influence in art, he wasn’t just thinking of Judaism solely as a religion either.

          Categorizing people by religion OR ethnicity OR nationality OR race in this way and assuming that based on that, they are responsible for influencing the media or finance or whatever based on that, with no actual proof other than that citation, is clear bigotry, whether you’re willing to acknowledge it or not.

        • Chu says:

          Hophmi, the man, intolerantly devoted to your opinions and prejudices and blind support of Israel. You never recon the facts of Israel’s occupation. The Mamilla cemetary for your Museum of Tolerance. This is all part of the great state that you support.

          The Bob Simon story didn’t begin to explain Israel’s occupation. It danced around it and was inaccurate. See Yousef Munayyer’s article ‘What 60 minutes got right and wrong’, but read it with an open mind (He is a Palestinian).

        • hopmi writes: “Arguing a source that is an Arab news source is biased is different from arguing that a source run by a parent company whose CEO is a Jew is biased. That’s comparing apples and oranges.”

          Why don’t you elaborate on this a little, for those of us who don’t quite see the distinction, and in fact worry that it sounds just a little “nefarious.”

        • hophmi says:

          “Why don’t you elaborate on this a little, for those of us who don’t quite see the distinction, and in fact worry that it sounds just a little “nefarious.””

          Really? I think of an Arab news media source as a source that is based in the Arab world, generally administrated by Arabs, focusing on stories from the Arab world. An example might be Al-Hayat or Al-Ahram in Egypt.

          I think of a Jewish news media souce as a source that is based in the Jewish world, generally administrated by Jews, focusing on stories from the Jewish world. An example might be the Forward or Haaretz in Israel.

          CNN, ABC, NBC, and CBS are not Jewish news media sources. A media organization does not become “Jewish” when a Jewish person becomes the CEO of its parent company any more than it become Arab if an Arab person becomes CEO of its parent company any more than it become Black if an African-American becomes CEO of its parent company any more than it become Greek if a Greek-American becomes CEO of its parent company any more than it becomes Christian if a Southern Baptist becomes CEO of its parent company.

          Clear now?

        • hophmi says:

          “Hophmi, the man, intolerantly devoted to your opinions and prejudices and blind support of Israel.”

          Cue change of subject.

          “The Bob Simon story didn’t begin to explain Israel’s occupation. It danced around it and was inaccurate. ”

          Yes, the story was 14 minutes long and focused on Palestinian Christians. It didn’t cover Theodore Herzl either. Not even one mention of Yasir Arafat or Sheikh Yassin, come on. ENTIRELY left the history of 1967 war out. OMG, and they forgot to call Michael Oren a Nazi and a fascist.

          I think you’re probably going to be unhappy most of the time, Chu.

        • hops, arab media sources like other media sources, do not only or even necessarily primarily (depending on current events) focus on stories from ‘their world’. if something happens like a war or a tsumani that gets covered all over the world. and when you say “based in the arab world” or “based in the jewish world” that’s a little nebulous. someone could be writing from london and be considered either of those depending on who they are and the topic they are covering. any jewish person writing about i/p could be considered “based in the jewish world”. it’s glaringly obvious the majority of stories about the conflict in the american msm, certainly in the nyt..are covered by american jews. it’s rare for a publication to regularly run features critical of israel via non jewish journalists, unless on occasion by arab journalists. but someone like sully or rick steves are a rarity. as a result, if i/p is primarily being covered by jews it places it in the rhelm of ‘the jewish world’. it moves out of that world when broadcasters and reporters are not jewish. same for an arab reporter or arab broadcaster in the US reporting on the arab spring, by definition i would consider this “the arab world”.

        • tree says:

          “You always Jew-count when it supports your arguments”

          When is that?

          Here, for one:

          link to mondoweiss.net

          OK, OK. It’s just that Ashkenazi Jews score high and are hugely overrepresented at every major higher educational institution in the United States. And then, of course, there’s the whole Nobel Prize thing.

          Most of us don’t think we’re any better than anyone else. But neither do we think we should talk down our accomplishments so we are less conspicuous.

          Hophmi, December 10, 2011, searched under keyword “Nobel”.

          So its OK for you to mention when particular Jews get Nobel Prizes and assume that it means something positive about the group overall (“…our accomplishments”), but not OK to mention when Jews are in major positions in corporate media and posit that their backgrounds and relationships to their community might influence their decisions.

        • Chu says:

          You Jew-count when you said Jews have higher IQ’s than the rest of humanity.

          Les Moonves is the grand nephew of David Ben Gurion. I would think that he may have some bias toward the state of Israel.

          He’s some reading.
          February 1, 2012

          Zionism and the three-picture deal

          Hollywood rediscovers the Jewish state

          What is happening now, however, is more than a revival or renewal of past ties. Hollywood and Israel have become enmeshed in a relationship that is not about a religious awakening or even fervent Zionism — it is a practical business relationship of investment and trade. Hollywood, it could be said, is leading the anti-boycott movement, valuing Israel for its creative resources and paying handsomely for them…

          “I met each and every one — if I had to call Les Moonves, I called Les Moonves. I spoke to every person I had to, told them the Zionist story. And I saw a lot of progress,”
          link to jewishjournal.com

        • hophmi says:

          “it’s glaringly obvious the majority of stories about the conflict in the american msm, certainly in the nyt..are covered by american jews.”

          It is? Substantiate that claim. It is true that the NY Times has had a run of Jewish correspondents in the Middle East, but they certainly haven’t all been Jewish. Chris Hedges was not Jewish. Neil MacFarquar is not Jewish. And again, there’s simply no evidence you’ve presented that the religion of these correspondents has influenced their reportage. Suzanne Goldenburg is Jewish; she wrote for the Guardian, and was very critical.

          “any jewish person writing about i/p could be considered “based in the jewish world”. ”

          Why? Based on what? And how far do you extend this? PTJ would like to extend it all the way to CEOs of parent companies.

          Is Suzanne Goldenburg, who covered Israel for the Guardian, very critically, based in the Jewish world?

          “it’s rare for a publication to regularly run features critical of israel via non jewish journalists, unless on occasion by arab journalists”

          Is it? Charlie Reese published them for years in the Orlando Sentinel, I think. He’s not Jewish, and he’s not Arab. The LA Times has run plenty of such pieces.

          You can’t just make bald claims like this unless you can substantiate them.

        • hop, who does Neil MacFarquar cover the ME for? chris hedges hasn’t worked for the nyt in years, i’m talking this century. i didn’t say that the religion of the reporters influenced their reporting. hence, it is not part of my argument.

          “any jewish person writing about i/p could be considered “based in the jewish world”. ”

          Why? Based on what? And how far do you extend this? PTJ would like to extend it all the way to CEOs of parent companies.

          based on my opinion. phil’s opinions are part of the jewish world, or don’t you think they qualify? if people are jewish they are part of the jewish world. now if you want to you could argue that israel doesn’t really make any more difference or have any more influence or effect on american jews than say…americans who are not jewish..but i don’t think that is the case. perhaps for the young but i think most american jews have been indoctrinated with a certain amount of conditioning wrt israel so that, whether they identify with it or not (and many do not) it is thru their identity as a jew, even if they resent it. only to the degree you could argue israel has no influence (not pro or negative but none) on an american jew could one speculate their reportage was not part of the jewish world. the jewish world is not limited to israel.

          imho opinion it is the same for arabs or muslims. when they are reporting on their own community or ethnicity they are reporting on ‘their world’.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “I’m not playing dumb. It’s a completely antisemitic argument.”

          You didn’t say antisemitic, you said religion. There was simply no indication that PeaceThroughJustice was mentioning their religion. None. You’re attempts to make this a religious argument was bush league and that’s why people objected. There is a difference between saying that one’s religion is the basis of an act and one’s ideologies borne of ethnicity is.

          “Categorizing people by religion OR ethnicity OR nationality OR race in this way and assuming that based on that, they are responsible for influencing the media or finance or whatever based on that, with no actual proof other than that citation, is clear bigotry, whether you’re willing to acknowledge it or not.”

          If one makes a blanket statement of cause and effect, sure. But it’s not bigotry to note the kid glove treatment that Israel gets in the US media, note that a large number of people in the US media are Jewish and question whether the natural human tendency toward ethnic solidarity is responsible for that kid gloves treatment. (That being said, I’m not sure that’s what PeaceThroughJustice was doing here.)

          The only way one could say that merely asking the question is bigotry is if one starts with the conclusion that no Jew would ever do that or is capable of doing that, which, in itself, is pretty bigoted.

        • seanmcbride says:

          hophmi,

          The issue is not Jews as members of a religion that is under discussion here, but Jews as members of an ETHNIC NATIONALIST group (and not merely an ethnic group — the key term is “nationalist”).

          Do you grasp the distinction? Many secular, agnostic and atheist Jews are militant about being Jewish ethnic nationalists — in fact, many or most of the founders and early leaders of Zionism were Marxists.

          Let’s take the Washington Post as an example (and I know how much you treasure these lists of empirical facts). One can easily come up with the names of 32 *ethnic nationalist* Jews who have written for the Washington Post:

          1. Charles Krauthammer
          2. Dan Senor
          3. Dana Milbank
          4. Daniel Pipes
          5. David Broder
          6. David Brooks
          7. David Frum
          8. Douglas Feith
          9. Edward Luttwak
          10. Elliott Abrams
          11. Fred Hiatt
          12. Fred Kagan
          13. Glenn Kessler
          14. Irving Kristol
          15. Jeffrey Goldberg
          16. Jennifer Rubin
          17. John Podhoretz
          18. Joshua Muravchik
          19. Ken Adelman
          20. Leon Wieseltier
          21. Meyrav Wurmser
          22. Michael Ledeen
          23. Norman Podhoretz
          24. Paul Wolfowitz
          25. Peter Beinart
          26. Richard Cohen
          27. Richard Perle
          28. Robert Kagan
          29. Victoria Nuland
          30. Walter Pincus
          31. William Kristol
          32. Yigal Carmon

          This is quite extraordinary considering that Jews comprise only 2% of the American population.

          Can you come up with the names of Washington Post writers who are Irish ethnic nationalists, Arab ethnic nationalists, German ethnic nationalists, black ethnic nationalists, Japanese ethnic nationalists, white ethnic nationalists, Latino ethnic nationalists, Anglo ethnic nationalists, Chinese ethnic nationalists, etc.?

          Let’s see what your lists look like.

          Let me help you get started:

          # Washington Post writer+Irish ethnic nationalist
          1. …

          Many of those Jewish ethnic nationalists above, by the way, were ringleaders of the Iraq War and are now ringleading the campaign to attack Iran — on behalf of Israel and Jewish ethnic nationalism.

          They rather stand out like a sore thumb, don’t you think? — and especially considering that the Iraq War and the entire Global War on Terror have been the worst foreign policy disaster in American history. They have labored mightily to make themselves conspicuous in American politics and culture, and they have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

        • seanmcbride says:

          hophmi,

          Here is another way to frame this discussion with the aim of uncovering the facts and the truth:

          Sort US ethnic groups by the combined number of ethnic nationalist op-ed articles respectively in the

          1. Wall Street Journal
          2. New York Times
          3. Washington Post
          4. New York Daily News.
          5. New York Post
          6. Los Angeles Times
          7. Chicago Tribune
          8. Chicago Sun-Times

          from 2000 to the present.

          You already know what the bar chart is going to look like, right? It is going to be bizarre.

        • seanmcbride says:

          Chu,

          The level of Jew-counting in mainstream Jewish publications like Forward, JTA, Tablet Magazine etc. is mind-boggling — for instance, check out the “Chosen Images” feature in Forward:

          link to forward.com

          They are obsessed. But apparently the rest of the world is expected to avert its eyes and take no notice.

          By the way, in reference to hophmi’s recent remarks, is there any religious content in this Chosen Images series? Or is this all about ethnic solidarity, pride, self-promotion, etc.? All ethnic groups are narcissistic and self-obsessed to a degree — but most of us try to keep a lid on those primitive impulses. And very few Americans are ethnic nationalists.

        • hophmi says:

          Again, just basic dishonesty on your part. This came in response to a post by Phil that said Jews should stop believing they were smarter than others, which in turn led to a comment by Gellian that it was asking people to believe in a falsehood which led to a discussion of IQ.

          The vast majority of the “Jew-counting” here is not done by me.

        • who’s being dishonest now hops, this sub-thread started right here directly to adam’s main article. phil has not been a part of it and you jumped in way upthread and were the first to respond to it.

          link to mondoweiss.net

          I wish Simon had had the courage to tell his audience that Oren’s call to Fager, the head of CBS, was a call to a fellow Jew, if only to illustrate the kind of tribal pressures that can be brought to bear on coverage of the Middle East. But then that could have opened a whole can of worms. Before you know it Americans might be told that the Chairman of ABC is Jewish too. And the Chairman of NBC. And the Chairman of CNN.

          And we all know that mentioning that amazing coincidence is “antisemitic.”

          and it’s not hard to notice when you get stuck you just evade people’s arguments and ignore them when you’re in a corner.

          link to mondoweiss.net

        • hophmi says:

          Ethnic nationalists? I believe most Irish people believe Ireland has the right to exist as a state, and when the situation in Northern Ireland was in the news, I’m sure you had a lot of Irish people writing about it.

          I won’t dignify your nonsense about how Jews are pushing us toward war in Iran or your nonsense about the ringleaders for a war that was overwhelmingly supported by the American people when it started.

        • hophmi, ‘jew counting’ is a slur often used in rhetorical arguments when people do not want to address the strong ethnic leanings of the majority of people who cover israel in the msm. sullivan asked if there were any non zionist journalists employed in the msm. perhaps an arab once in awhile but the names you nameed are not writing for the msm re israel currently, or lately. hedges got booted off the ME beat because of his non zio leanings. there’s a whole list of very influential neocons who write regularly for the msm. if you have examples of non jewish reporters covering israel for any of the main news sources name some. it’s a legitimate observation. you can’t just scream jew counting everytime people notice the field is heavily monitored. this 60 minute episode being a prime example. and even if someone is being critical of israel in the msm they are still generally jewish or arab/persian. it’s just uncommon otherwise although chris hayes seems to have used his show to open up the discourse lately.

        • Taxi says:

          hops,

          Stuff it with your “antisemitic” fixation! Sean Mcbride and PeaceThroughJustice have more honor, truth and integrity in their fingernails than you and your zionist banshees can ever dream of.

          You ever counted how many times per day you say the word “antisemitic”? Seriously! Do you mumble the word “antisemitic” in your sleep?

        • Shingo says:

          I believe most Irish people believe Ireland has the right to exist as a state..

          I never heard anyone but an Israelis or Israeli apologists making the argument that any state has a right to exist.

        • Miriam says:

          hophmi
          I’ve been reading your 1-man response to the (mondo) world over the last few hours, taking in yr comments, one by one, slur by slur, and I finally relented …perhaps because of your last breach of reality – a bridge too far… -aside from the arrogance of your approach to each and every person who has stepped forward…like a little emporer…Off with their head…its irrelevent! he doesn’t count because….I say so! discard !! etc etc
          it was stunning to see a my small collection of yr negatives.
          here’s a short list:
          “Forget about quoting Shahak. He’s not remotely credible..”
          “I won’t accept a single cite from that book without independent verification. It’s not remotely a credible source.”
          “The book’s author is a Palestinian diplomat, not a scholar or historian..”
          “The fact that you would rely on a book like this for anything is telling. But never mind.”
          “I’m amazed that you would continue to quote from a book that accuses the Jews of starting World War II.”
          ..”the Federation letter does not say anything like that. It encourages people to contact CBS ….blah blah blah..”
          “The clear assumption here that Jews direct and influence the reportage of news at these places. Is this Stormfront.com? Rense?”
          BUT the last one….
          “i wont dignify yr nonsense about how jews are pushing us toward war in Iran or yr nonsense about ringleaders for a war that was overwhelmingly supported by the American people when it started.”
          Forget Dr Israel Shahak…dismissing of anyone/everyone–
          – except those You decree as ‘worthy’….and who would that include? Wolfowitz? Perle? Feith? Wurmser? Abrams? ……Forget the Yinon plan of 1982 which BEGAT the PNAC/New Pearl Harbor thrust for a war…against the whole list in Yinon’s Greater Eretz plan to divide & conquer the entire region to maintain Israeli hegemony…
          It was the Neocons in Bush regime who pushed for war against IRAQ….(they tried to convince Clinton to sign off on PNAC letter but he rejected it)…who knows what goes on behind the scenes——
          – but your failure to at least acknowledge that it is the Israeli govt, I.E. yes, Jews… big jewish zionist donors like Sheldon Adelson funding those who ‘stand with Israel’ despite that it in no way serves US /American best interests….
          Jewish Netanyahoo has been pushing for war and using all his influence in Congress, which is considerable, to push the ‘threat’ to Israel to “allow” Iran to go nuclear.
          It aint the Hari Krishna that incessantly talk about “The Threat” and “narrow window” ..and all the other rot that goes along with “The Threat”. Bibi is the THREAT …and that is way most global polls seem to interpret how the world views these ceaseless calls by Zionist Jews for more war, with Uncle Sam doing the heavy lifting….essentially a call for armageddon …as if….he didn’t know how that would play with CUFI and Hagee’s crowd. It’s taken years but the efforts and sacrifices of persistent activists who see the reality/truth of the “Jewish demockracy”….I think the hasbara machine like the sorcerer’s apprentice run amuck….Enough.

        • seanmcbride says:

          hophmi,

          I named 32 Jewish ethnic nationalists who have been given a prominent platform on the op-ed page of the Washington Post. You didn’t challenge or question any of the names on the list.

          Once again: can you name any other ethnic nationalist groups that have been given a prominent platform on the op-ed pages of the Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal and other leading American mainstream newspapers?

          Can you manage to come up at least a few names? Even one?

          Who are the Irish, Arab, German or Italian equivalents to Charles Krauthammer at the Washington Post? Keep in mind that Jews represent only 2% of the American population and aggressive Jewish ethnic nationalists even a much smaller percent — most American Jews do not share the views and agenda of Jewish neoconservatives and Likud Zionists.

          What is going on here? What explains the extreme bias of the American mainstream media in this domain? Might it have anything to do with the agenda of the owners and top management of these media outlets?

        • seanmcbride says:

          Shingo,

          Hophmi missed the main point: Irish ethnic nationalists are not a clamorous and warmongering presence on the op-ed pages of the Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal and other leading American newspapers. Nor are members of any other ethnic nationalist group except one — hophmi’s and Charles Krauthammer’s group to be precise.

          Most Americans are not ethnic nationalists and want nothing to do with ethnic nationalism. If they *were* going to go down the ethnic nationalist path they would be ethnic nationalists for their respective ethnic groups. They would be pursuing their naked ethnic self-interest in the same way that hophmi is pursuing his. But most Americans get what Americanism is all about — it’s trans-ethnic.

        • seanmcbride says:

          hophmi,

          Compare the number of New York Times op-ed articles on Israel with the number of op-ed articles on Ireland from 1960 through 2012. I am betting that the ratio is 10 to 1, or even 20 to 1, or even more. What do you think?

          Run the same numbers for Germany, France, Italy, Sweden, Japan, etc.

          The obsessive overfocus on Israel in the American mainstream media compared to other nations is grotesque — and especially when one takes into account the number of Israelis and pro-Israel Jews in the United States compared to the numbers for other national and ethnic groups.

          The smartest move that American Jews could make at this point is to greatly reduce the level of cantankerous controversies about Israel in American politics and culture. But the level of noise and clamor about Israel seems to keep increasing with every year.

        • Mayhem says:

          Zio-supremacists have no problem claiming that Arab media sources are biased because of some tribal “Arab nation” thing, but then get all whiny and defensive and accusatory when someone claims that Jewish-owned/-run media sources are biased because of some tribal “Jewish nation” thing.

          On the Jewish side there is this open-minded plurality and acceptance of different views and opinions so sites like Mondoweiss can flourish.
          On the Arab side the situation is not analagous, with there being no open forum for discussion and consideration of opposing viewpoints. Rather it is a closed shop, where the threat to anyone straying from the Arab tribe’s party line is liable to the severest punishment.  

        • is there a particular arab media source you’re referencing mayhem? like say, lebanon’s daily star? do you think they all march in lockstep?

          acceptance of different views and opinions so sites like Mondoweiss can flourish…..no open forum for discussion and consideration of opposing viewpoints

          wrt their blogs, do you speak arabic? i don’t have access to their social media but i doubt there are “no open forum for discussion and consideration of opposing viewpoints”.

        • seanmcbride says:

          Mayhem,

          You wrote:

          “On the Jewish side there is this open-minded plurality and acceptance of different views and opinions so sites like Mondoweiss can flourish.”

          Mondoweiss points of view and authors are almost completely censored in the mainstream media and American Jewish establishment. From the standpoint of the Israel lobby, the Internet is a highly subversive and dangerous technology that needs to be brought under authoritarian control.

          Even Peter Beinart, who is not nearly as adventurous as Philip Weiss, is now now under massive attack by the Jewish establishment and the Israel lobby for daring to state a few obvious facts about the real world.

          The truth is, Zionism is now a reality-hostile and autocratic cult that specializes in shrill bullying and intimidation. It didn’t have to be this way — quite a few Zionists over the years have been quite rational and reality-based (up to a point) — but those days are long gone.

        • hophmi says:

          “aside from the arrogance of your approach to each and every person who has stepped forward”

          LOL. I’m not the arrogant one here. Look, if you want to live in this little world here and regard Israel Shahak as a credible source on Jewish history, go ahead. In the real world, there are many, many respected books on Jewish history you can read; I suggested one. Shahak’s is not one of them. Usually, books can’t be both political polemics and respected history books at the same time.

          “I won’t accept a single cite from that book without independent verification. It’s not remotely a credible source.”

          Yes, Miriam, books that blame the Jews for WWII, are written by interested parties like government officials, and do not provide citations for their claims are not usually considered credible. If I posted an unsourced list of Muslim attacks on Jews or Christians from a book written by Meir Kahane, I don’t think you’d accept it as fact.

          “The fact that you would rely on a book like this for anything is telling. But never mind.”

          Why does this trouble you? Would you rely on a book by a Holocaust denier?

          “except those You decree as ‘worthy’….and who would that include? Wolfowitz? Perle? Feith? Wurmser? Abrams? ”

          Any respected historian or news media source. Like, you know, an actual history professor who has published on Jewish history or Palestinian history and has been peer-reviewed. A news source like, you know, a respected newspaper or wire service. See, this is how polarized the atmosphere is. I object to using Israel Shahak as a source on Jewish history, and you assume that all I could possibly accept is Bush administration officials.

        • hophmi says:

          “I named 32 Jewish ethnic nationalists who have been given a prominent platform on the op-ed page of the Washington Post. You didn’t challenge or question any of the names on the list.”

          I don’t accept your premise, Sean, so we may not have any basis for discussion. I don’t interpret everyone who believes in the concept of a Jewish state as a Jewish ethnic nationalist, because I don’t view Israel as an ethnocracy, and I don’t view everyone who supports the right of Israel to exist as a nationalist. Moreover, the vast majority of the people on your list do not write with any regularity on Israel.

          “Once again: can you name any other ethnic nationalist groups that have been given a prominent platform on the op-ed pages of the Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal and other leading American mainstream newspapers?”

          It’s a very silly question, because not every country is subjected to the level of controversy Israel is, so not every country requires giving people a platform. That said, Palestinians from Abu Mazen to Yasir Arafat to Rashid Khalidi to Ali Abunimah have appeared in the NY Times to argue for a Palestinian state.

          “Who are the Irish, Arab, German or Italian equivalents to Charles Krauthammer at the Washington Post? ”

          I’m not aware of constant challenges to the existence of any of these states, so I don’t know why there would be a need to publish articles on a noncontroversy. Again Charles Krauthammer does not write only about Israel, so I don’t really see your point.

          “Keep in mind that Jews represent only 2% of the American population and aggressive Jewish ethnic nationalists even a much smaller percent ”

          Now they’re aggressive? Peter Beinart is aggressive to you? There are a lot of Jewish journalists out there, I’ll give you that.

          “most American Jews do not share the views and agenda of Jewish neoconservatives and Likud Zionists.”

          Not everyone on your list is a neocon. And once again, Israel is not what they regularly write about.

          “What is going on here? What explains the extreme bias of the American mainstream media in this domain?”

          Again, I wouldn’t call it extreme. You call it extreme. But there are Arab and Palestinian voices in mainstream newspapers frequently. I’d argue that the bias exists in left-wing European newspapers like the Guardian, where mainstream Zionist voices are rarely heard.

          “Might it have anything to do with the agenda of the owners and top management of these media outlets?”

          No. Israel is simply viewed differently here than it is elsewhere. A LOT of issues are viewed differently here than elsewhere. Like Cuba, to take one example; I am pretty sure that no country publishes as much anti-Cuba literature and reportage as this one does. There is no proliferation of Cuban journalists and newspaper owners that I know of.

        • hophmi says:

          “Compare the number of New York Times op-ed articles on Israel with the number of op-ed articles on Ireland from 1960 through 2012. I am betting that the ratio is 10 to 1, or even 20 to 1, or even more. What do you think?”

          I really have no idea. I imagine that the hotter the troubles got, the more op-eds appeared.

          “Run the same numbers for Germany, France, Italy, Sweden, Japan, etc.”

          Again, I’m not sure what your point is. These are not controversial issues right now. When we were fighting in WWII, and people were interested in these countries day to day, I bet lots of articles appeared in the newspapers.

          “The obsessive overfocus on Israel in the American mainstream media compared to other nations is grotesque ”

          I absolutely agree that there are way, way too many articles in the newspaper on Israel. But that has nothing to do with America. That is true around the world. Israel has thousands of journalists living within its borders. They are not all Americans.

          “and especially when one takes into account the number of Israelis and pro-Israel Jews in the United States compared to the numbers for other national and ethnic groups.”

          Well, obviously, not just Jews are interested in Israel.

          “The smartest move that American Jews could make at this point is to greatly reduce the level of cantankerous controversies about Israel in American politics and culture.”

          I know virtually no Jewish leader who would not be overjoyed if Israel were taken off the front page of the newspaper forever.

          “But the level of noise and clamor about Israel seems to keep increasing with every year.”

          There are more than a billion Muslims and more than a billion Christians, and the Holy Land is a matter of interest to their communities. They are the ones responsible for keeping Israel on the front page, not the Jews.

        • seanmcbride says:

          hophmi,

          Let’s see a list of your key authorities and experts on Mideast politics.

        • hophmi says:

          “Mondoweiss points of view and authors are almost completely censored in the mainstream media and American Jewish establishment. ”

          Yes, most of the mainstream media can recognize antisemitism when they see it and reject the thesis that the Jews led us into war.

          “From the standpoint of the Israel lobby, the Internet is a highly subversive and dangerous technology that needs to be brought under authoritarian control.”

          LOL.

          “Even Peter Beinart, who is not nearly as adventurous as Philip Weiss, is now now under massive attack by the Jewish establishment and the Israel lobby for daring to state a few obvious facts about the real world.”

          I wouldn’t say he’s under massive attack. He’s been pretty harshly criticized. But for the most part, he hasn’t had trouble getting speaking dates at JCCs and places like the 92nd Street Y.

          “The truth is, Zionism is now a reality-hostile and autocratic cult that specializes in shrill bullying and intimidation.”

          LOL. On a thread that featured citations from a book that blames Jews for WWII.

        • hophmi says:

          “Let’s see a list of your key authorities and experts on Mideast politics.”

          I’m not doing your homework for you. I get most of my information from reading newspapers from the New York Times to Haaretz to the Guardian to Al-Jazeera to this blog. You can look up the writers and do an ethnic assessment if you want to waste your time.

        • seanmcbride says:

          hophmi,

          You wrote:

          “I’m not doing your homework for you.”

          I am on the verge of dismissing you as a complete idiot.

          How am I supposed to know which authorities, experts, books and journals *YOU* rely on to understand and analyze Mideast politics?

          I think you know so little about this subject in a serious way that you have no idea who are the leading scholars in this field.

          Every word you write is an embarrassment to Israel.

        • Chu says:

          I won’t dignify your nonsense about how Jews are pushing us toward war in Iran or your nonsense about the ringleaders for a war that was overwhelmingly supported by the American people when it started.

          Don’t you read this blog? Many of the articles discuss how American Jews in high places are pushing for War with Iran (or Iraq) on behalf of Israel. Just look at the articles about Jeffrey Goldberg and you’ll see what dual loyalty issues he faces. It may be difficult for you to see because you face the same challenges.

          Should Johnathan Pollard be released Hophmi, or should he free set free as Israel wishes? Here is one conflict that seperates the 2 nations, yet you would say there is nothing to see here, move along please.

        • Citizen says:

          hophmi, prior to Clinton’s administration, the US policy re the situation in Ireland was Anglophile, despite the large percentage of Irish Americans, who were majority in favor on Irish unification as an independent state–with the “special relationship” analogous to the present one with Israel, with England.
          Clinton opened up direct and full US access and input to that peace process with all factions, including Sein Fein, which was analogous to HAMAS, which the US has not supported in any way, and has vilified as terrorists. Mitchell was the balanced hand in the Irish problem’s peace process; in comparison, Mitchell was not supported to have that same objective hand in the peace process re the I-P conflict–the Israel Lobby knocked him out of that box. No such thing happened due to any Irish Lobby in the USA. Today, the Irish government and the Irish people identify with, and support the Palestinians, not the Israelis–in fact the Irish are the # 1 supporters of the Palestine people in the West due to their own experience with gaining self-determination over the long and brutal British occupation and its helper colony in Northern Ireland which long discriminated against its Irish Catholic element, which was one-third of Northern Ireland. There were a few Irish-American pundits and Irish -American political leaders writing for one side or the other, but the US media took a generally balanced approach, including the Irish-American component of it.
          link to journals.hil.unb.ca

        • Citizen says:

          It will take an end to the constantly referenced (in US mainstream media and in Congress) “special relationship” with Israel to obtain a reliable peace process to settle the I-P Conflict, same as it took an end to US former “special relationship” with Britain to end the Irish Troubles: link to britishpoliticsgroup.org

        • Citizen says:

          Heh, how many sites like Mondoweiss are there in the USA, a country with over 300 M people? Now, compare the US mainstream media, not an alternative news source like the internet which one has to actually exert some effort to peruse, as distinguished from nightly TV news on network and Cable.

        • Citizen says:

          Hophmi, you have yet to name a single historian you think is objective. Y?
          All U do is tear down those historian name’s offered. Grow up.

        • Hostage says:

          LOL. On a thread that featured citations from a book that blames Jews for WWII.

          Straw man alert the book does no such thing.

        • Cliff says:

          sean,

          hophmi is the same clown who tried to tell us a snake colored as the Palestinian national flag was not a hateful depiction of Palestinian national identity.

          hophmi is the same clown who called Palestinians – in their entirety – Nazis, by slippery sloping verb-noun-the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

          He is a side-show. The few token Zionist commentators on MW who are allowed to say whatever because the truth is that Zionism is a joke. It has prevailed only through money, fanaticism, violence, and emotional blackmail and a conflation of political interests.

          If it were to up to a true ‘war of ideas’? Well, take a look at these sophist fools, hophmi and fredblogs and all the rest.

        • Hostage says:

          I don’t interpret everyone who believes in the concept of a Jewish state as a Jewish ethnic nationalist, because I don’t view Israel as an ethnocracy, and I don’t view everyone who supports the right of Israel to exist as a nationalist.

          That’s the addlebrained self-contradictory bullshit we can always expect from you Hophmi. “Israel” and “Jewish state” are inherently ethnocentric concepts with no redeeming secular value.

        • Cliff says:

          Hophmi said:

          Yes, most of the mainstream media can recognize antisemitism when they see it and reject the thesis that the Jews led us into war.

          What the ‘mainstream’ recognizes as antisemitism and what is recognized as mainstream is a point of view unto itself.

          You consider the American press to be unbiased compared to the UK press precisely because of how they (European press) treat Israel.

          Earlier in this thread you rattled off a bunch of other issues you supposedly care about other than Israel. But none of that matters. You only give a damn about this issue. It’s the only issue that shows you for the crazy that you are. LOL

        • hophmi,

          Let’s see a list of your key authorities and experts on Mideast politics.

          shorter hophmi: ‘la la la la la la la i can’t hear you!’

        • seanmcbride says:

          Hostage,

          You wrote:

          “That’s the addlebrained self-contradictory bullshit we can always expect from you Hophmi. “Israel” and “Jewish state” are inherently ethnocentric concepts with no redeeming secular value.”

          Amen.

          After a while the shiftiness, intellectual dishonesty, self-contradictions, game-playing and manipulations of pro-Israel activists like hophmi become nauseating. There is no truth in them whatever — just an endless stream of nonsensical rationalizations. There is very much a sociopathic vibe to the entire mess.

          Zionism is as pure an expression of ethnic nationalism as one can find and Israel is by its own definition an ethnic nationalist state. Why all the clamor from the Israeli government and the Israel lobby for the world to acknowledge officially that Israel is a Jewish state in the ethnic sense?

          Personality traits commonly associated with members of ethnic and religious cults:

          1. abusive
          2. aggressive
          3. delusional
          4. evasive
          5. in denial
          6. illogical
          7. intellectually dishonest
          8. irrational
          9. manipulative
          10. self-contradictory
          11. self-righteous
          12. shifty
          13. slippery

          We’ve seen it all in these exchanges.

        • Hostage says:

          Any respected historian or news media source. Like, you know, an actual history professor who has published on Jewish history or Palestinian history and has been peer-reviewed.

          Hophmi Israel Shahak co-authored books with Norton Mezvinsky PhD, a Professor of History on the faculty of Connecticut State University. Mezvinsky’s areas of specialization are Modern Middle East, Arab-Israeli Conflict, U.S. Gilded Age, and the Progressive Era. He happens to be the sort of expert that the Oxford Journal on Church and State employs to review other people’s books on Jewish fundamentalism, e.g. link to jcs.oxfordjournals.org

          I gave you several unimpeachable sources on the history and Halakhah regarding the practice of burning copies of the Torah prepared by Christians in order to isolate and intimidate them, including:
          *Isaac Kalimi, a PhD in Biblical Studies from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, a who teaches at the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago and is Rosenthal Distinguished Visiting Professor in Biblical and Judaic Studies at Case Western Reserve University. His specialties are the history of the Jewish people, biblical literature, history, and exegesis. See footnote 21 on page 83:
          link to books.google.com

          *An article in which the Chief Rabbi of Beer sheva, Yehuda Deri, placed all copies of the Bible or mezuzos connected with a local Christian under a ban and announced his intention to burn them in accordance with the Halakhah.
          link to yadlachimusa.org.il

          Yes, Miriam, books that blame the Jews for WWII
          Repeating that irrelevant straw man argument doesn’t make you look very intelligent, since we are discussing the compilation of third-party verifiable evidence regarding violence directed toward Christians, not the origins of WWII.

          In any event, the author does NOT accuse the Jews of starting WWII. His very first comment in the preface spells-out the causus belli:

          Before and during World War II millions of gentiles, including Poles, Dutch, Norwegians, French, Serbs, Greeks, Russians, Ukrainians, Germans, Austrians, and others, as well as Jews, were imprisoned, tortured, put in concentration camps and robbed of their worldly possessions by the Nazis.

          He goes on to note that a worldwide conference of Jews from around the globe declared war against Germany and that the Jewish leadership opposed efforts to negotiate a solution by peaceful means. He provides anecdotal evidence which shows that Jewish leaders applied political pressure to go to war and prosecute the Nazi war criminals. He provides evidence to support all of his claims. His bottom line is that when Palestinians act the very same way with respect to peace proposals and the crimes committed by Zionists against the people of Palestine, the victims are branded as terrorists.

          We all get it, Hophmi. You’re here to spin and dissemble and you don’t like the things these experts have to say.

        • RoHa says:

          “Yes, most of the mainstream media can recognize antisemitism when they see it and reject the thesis that the Jews led us into war.”

          It doesn’t matter a hoot whether the thesis is “anti-Semitic” or not.

          What matters is whether it is true.

          Crying “anti-Semitism” or “Jew hating” doesn’t change the truth or falsity.

          Why is this so hard for you to understand?

        • Miriam says:

          Hostage……and I believe that as long as informed well intentioned people continue to try to reason with hophmi…..we are all become “hostages”. He enjoys jousting with people he perceives as anti Semites. The great unwashed Un-chosen. His arrogance is his Wall, his protective ghetto….all he needs is his handy dandy hasbaRat guidebook and voila, he’s ready to put in a few hours as the local zionist golem.
          He is a text book example discussed in Wandering Who? category #3: “those who put their Jewish-ness over and above all of their other traits.”…it is “the key element and the fundamental characteristic of one’s being. Any other quality is secondary.”
          He cannot be just another ordinary citizen. He lives as a professional Zionist.
          Consider his dismissal of Dr. Israel Shahak as a classic symptom.
          Shahak should be remembered, respected and honored for the human mensch he was and his contributions to civil society.
          There used to be a time when Jews respected menschen.
          I still remember some of my elders who were kind gentle decent people.
          If you review Shahak’s early life during WW2 you would think that with all the edifices, memorials, tributes, museums and paeans to the shoah that such a man as Shahak would be revered for his humanity and his successes no less than his actual survival; that is the conundrum…the mystery–worship the (Golden calf) of holocaust but dismiss the message of survivors. Use the holocaust as a weapon and the word anti Semitic as a guillotine, and denigrate those who refuse to play “chosen”.
          Dear Hostage … hophmi is a dead end.
          There is nothing you can say that will bring him back to the “living”.
          I guess folks keep trying to reach him, reason with him, believing he’s another human being but he is really a golem, a zionist automaton.

          Left to his own devices with no one to hate or fight with, he might just
          long for his own lost humanity…one can hope.
          I’m checking out of this…i salute all you good people for trying but like a vampire needs blood he needs your passion against injustice.
          Just dont play with vampires or golem.

        • RoHa says:

          Your assessment of hophmi may well be correct. However, even if we abandon the idea of actually changing his mind, there are two good reasons for Hostage to continue responding to him.

          First, it gives other readers a chance to see how weak hophmi’s arguments are.

          Second, it gives me yet another chance to observe (with open-mouthed admiration) the way Hostage can marshal and deploy his vast erudition to rebut hophmi.

          That alone is worth the price of admission.

        • Miriam says:

          RoHa…
          100% true…real learning is for there for all who want it to fill in the years of manipulative lies….
          We learn from each other, from blessed erudite associates…
          pls forgive my negs. Just tired.
          There should be no diminished effort, because Palestine is waiting!….
          – heart felt respects to Hostage…and you RoHa & Annie, citizen, Sumud, Cliff, Sean and many others who steadfastly come teach share.
          blessings all.

        • i second roha. the heavyweights on MW have so much to reveal, but for us to learn, it needs to be trotted out. simpleminded zionists are just a foil, but they serve as an impetus to bring out the facts, that many of us never knew.

          each deep thread serves as a digital database to the injustice, irrationality, and outright lies inherent in most all zionist “arguments”, and as a treasure trove of information. plus thousands read these threads…. and i assume this thread floored many americans (and quite a few american christians).

        • Hophmi is a dead end. There is nothing you can say that will bring him back to the “living”. I guess folks keep trying to reach him, reason with him, believing he’s another human being, but he is really a golem, a zionist automaton.

          Left to his own devices with no one to hate or fight with, he might just long for his own lost humanity … one can hope.

          Very nicely put, Miriam.

    • Citizen says:

      You are only allowed the good, heart-warming, praise-worthy side of Jewish Geography.

  45. hophmi says:

    “Shrinking Christian population in the Palestinian territories is a long-time and painful fact. Before coming to Washington as a Haaretz correspondent, I used to visit Palestinian Christians in Bethlehem, Ramallah, the village of Taybeh and East Jerusalem. Some of the Palestinian specialists were happy to speak in Russian – they received their education in the Soviet Union. Nobody was happy about the security situation, especially during the Intifada years, or the Israeli occupation.

    But many of them also had complaints about some of their Muslim neighbors. Some businessmen said they were forced out of business by local thugs. But they requested I keep that part off the record, out of concerned for the security of their families.”

    link to haaretz.com

    • Woody Tanaka says:

      I used to know some guys who confessed to me that they planned the Lincoln and Kennedy assinations. Off the record of course.

      Tru fax.

    • Blake says:

      I complain about my neighbors all the time but then they are not impostors on my land oppressing me (and we can live together).

  46. Blake says:

    I think CBS should be applauded for showing it and not succumbing to pressure from Michael Oren/Israel.

  47. Erasmus says:

    1) Re Natasha Mozgovaya in Haaretz 23Apr12 link to haaretz.com
    ….”The relationship between Israel and the Christian world is our strategic interest, …..” a senior Israeli diplomat told Haaretz.

    2) Re From 6o Minutes:
    For Israel, there could be serious economic consequences. According to Israeli government figures, tourism is a multi billion dollar business there. Most tourists are Christian. ….. That’s one reason why Israelis are very sensitive about their image in the United States.
    Holy Land Tourism is indeed a multi billion dollar business – and it is the Israeli Hotels, Tour operators, Travel agencies, car rental and bus companies, Restaurants, banks, etc…which cream off some estimated 95+% of this Samsonite Christian Pilgrimage Industry. That makes a truly strategic interest.
    And this also explains not only the “strategic” interest in the Christian tourist world, not Christians or the Christian world, as well as the very sensitive reaction of Israeli Government officials and business when it comes to Israel’s image abroad.
    The 60minutes documentary has made it hopefully clear, that it is the Palestinians, regardless whether Christian or Muslim, who are equally victimised by Israel’s occupation. The Christian exodus is over-obvious, because Christians have been / are a relatively small minority within the Palestinian and Israeli societies where the exodus of thousands becomes easily discernible. In Palestine it surely has long reached existential dimensions.
    The Kairos document of all Christian denominations is a milestone document which should wake the entire Christianity up to act in solidarity with Palestinians, Muslim and Christian alike.
    As long as Western (“Christian”) Governments adamantly refuse since decades to exert any effective political pressure on the Government of Israel to end occupation and discrimination of Palestinians, Christians SHOULD STOP any HOLIDAY AND PILGRIMAGE TRAVELs TO ISRAEL and POSTPONE THEIR HOLY LAND PILGRIMAGES UNTIL SUCH TIME that a SATISFACTORY FINAL PEACE AGREEMENT with the Palestinians will have been concluded.

  48. Michael Oren: It seemed to me outrageous
    Bob Simon: And it was a reason to call the president of– chairman of CBS News?
    __________________

    That reminds me of something in Germany, years ago:
    The head of our Council of Jews in Germany wrote a letter to the publisher of the German edition of Norman Finkelstein’s ‘The Holocaust Industry’, urging him not to publish it, saying: “The publication is politically harmful.” (That are the exact words, he didn’t say ‘outrageous’)

    This raised some eyebrows, when it was reported in some German media.
    The publisher (Piper) didn’t care and published Finkelstein’s book in German.

    • Citizen says:

      I’m sure Leander will explain it all to us, along with her thoughts on Germany’s giving Israel the latest nuke-capable subs at German expense.

    • lysias says:

      Piper must be a very courageous publisher. They’ve also published Andreas von Bülow’s Die CIA und der 11. September: Internationaler Terror und die Rolle der Geheimdienste [The CIA and 9/11: International Terrrorism and the Role of the Intelligence Agencies] and Im Namen des Staates: CIA, BND und die kriminellen Machenschaften der Geheimdienste [In the Name of the State: the CIA, the Bundesnachrichtendienst, and the Criminal Intrigues of the Intelligence Agencies].

  49. jimmy says:

    and I’d be willing to bet the house that NOT one member were allowed or even tried to to watch this piece.

    not one thing is going to change towards that area of the world …until this congress or the next has the guts to say NO

  50. Blake says:

    Palestinian Christians face ethnic cleansing

    By ABE ATA

    The Palestinian Christian is an endangered species. When the modern state of Israel was established there were about 400,000 of us. Two years ago the number was down to 80,000. Now it’s down to 60,000. At that rate, in a few years there will be none of us left. Palestinian Christians within Israel fare little better. On the face of it, their number has grown by 20,000 since 1991. But this is misleading, for the census classification “Christian” includes some 20,000 recent non-Arab migrants from the former Soviet Union. So why are Palestinian Christians abandoning their homeland? We have lost hope, that’s why. We are treated as non-people. Few outside the Middle East even know we exist, and those who do, conveniently forget.

    More: link to natcath.org

  51. At first Oren starts saying “my assumptions” but quickly corrects himself and says “I HAD, I believe [esc. clause], information about the nature of it”

    But then Bob Simon cuts Oren off and ‘corrects’ him “You don’t know what’s going to be put on air”.
    Oren accepts this ‘correction’ gracefully – “Ok. I don’t. True”

    ie. Oren KNEW of the footage. He just couldn’t know whether it would be AIRED or not. A technicality.

    It’s in both Simon’s and Oren’s interests to not show how cozy (incestuous?) Israeli government’s relationship is with American media. And not talk about how Oren even came by the information in the first place.