In case you haven't heard Gunter Grass has compared Interior Minister Eli Yishai to Erich Mielke, the head of the Stasi, for barring him from Israel, and German pianist Moritz Eggert has written a fabulous song (I kid you not) 'Israel, I love you, but don't attack Iran". That's the latest big news on Grass but what remains the most interesting aspect of the Grass story is the astounding growth of the conversation.
The other day under the story here, Jakob Augstein and Gideon Levy have Gunter Grass’s back, commenter Klaus Bloemker linked to an online poll in The Financial Times Deutschland.
“The statements by Grass are …
- insane 8%
- dangerous 4%
- antisemitic 4%
- worth discussing/arguable 27%
- correct 57%Till now the number of people who voted is 9700.
The respondents who see Grass’ statements as correct or at least arguable: 84%.
The percentages still hold strong with over 21,000 respondents. The title of Nicholas Kulish's piece in the NYT today, Once Taboo, Germans’ Anti-Israel Whispers Grow Louder, is perhaps an understatement. Even some critics of Grass's seem to grok the public has his back.
Speaking out loudly and publicly about Israel was just not done in Germany for obvious historical reasons. But Grass's poem seems to have opened up a floodgate.
Sharp criticism of Israel, particularly from the left, has long been a tradition among European intellectuals, and Mr. Grass’s poem caused little stir on the Continent outside of Germany. But political and scholarly elites here have more often resisted that trend, tending to see basic support for Israel as a German responsibility, if not a necessity, after the Holocaust.
But the public response to the furor over Mr. Grass’s poem suggests that that attitude is breaking down as World War II recedes into history. “In the populism you see surfacing on a large scale, the public is all behind Grass,” said Georg Diez, an author and journalist at the magazine Der Spiegel who has written critically of the poem.
More than a week after the publication of “What Must Be Said,” it was still the subject of significant discussion. In the Thursday issue of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper, another critical commentary appeared, this time with the headline “He Is the Preacher With the Wooden Mallet.” And on Thursday night, the talk show host Maybrit Illner held yet another televised discussion, “Grass in the Pillory: Is Criticizing Israel Really Taboo?”
Interestingly Heather Horn's article at the Atlantic, Germany's National Debate Over Guilt, the Holocaust, Israel, and Gunter Grass, fails to mention this angle of the public response, at all.
In the firestorm that has followed, even those opposing Israeli foreign policy have taken issue with Grass's poem, which portrayed Israel as a danger to world peace. In Germany in particular, the criticism is ferocious, and extends to the highest levels of politics. Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle has called "putting Israel and Iran on the same moral level [...] absurd," while Rainer Stinner, speaker for the Free Democratic Party in the Bundestag, has tried to shrug it off: "Grass is a writer. Politically, I've always thought him an idiot." But the question that Grass's German critics seem to be tackling is a tricky one: is Grass merely naïve and possibly careerist, or is there something more subconsciously sinister at work?
Many of the critics seem to feel it's the latter, and that's why they find the poem so repellent. Grass, they argue, is attempting to will into reality a Freudian inversion of past German sins. His poem is an emotional rebalancing of the Holocaust, casting Israel, founded by 20th-century Jewish victims, as a 21st-century existential threat to Iranians.
Okay Heather, let's just keep on talking.
Glad you picked that poll up Annie, with a good number of respondents, I hope Rainer Stinner for the Free Democrates has to eat his words with the German electorate, when he called Gunter Grass an idiot, 84% of the German middle class disagree with him, are they idiots also.
Also consider what sorts of people visit the Web site of the Financial Times Deutschland. This is not a group of wild-eyed radicals.
Germans have been held prisoner based on the guilt of the Nazi generation. The youngsters (other perhaps than neo-Nazis) are innocent but still being SUPPRESSED. Why should not Germans be as able as anyone else to have and to state publicly opinions on political topics on all subjects, including Israel? Why indeed! (NB: This is dangerous stuff. Next thing you know there’ll be an American Grass, but the Grass is always greener across the road.)
Now, Germany, now that you’ve begun to talk about Israel/Iran, perhaps you’ll take a look at Israel/Palestine. Hmmm? Why not?
“Germans have been held prisoner based on the guilt of the Nazi generation. The youngsters (other perhaps than neo-Nazis) are innocent but still being SUPPRESSED.”
imprisoned and suppressed by whom? Even if one would identify the oppressors as non-German or non-Gentile, what happened to the Nuremberg principle that following orders is no excuse?
Once again, the Germans only have themselves to blame. And, as is usual, they do so by beating up on each other over which reaction to Grass’ poem is the politically correct one. A hopeless bunch.
@ Antidote,
If you believe sons and daughters can and should be held responsible for the acts of their fathers and mothers, yeah, then you’re right. Hopeless bunch, you say? Is your economical status that good?
@ Daniel Rich:
“If you believe sons and daughters can and should be held responsible for the acts of their fathers and mothers”
I certainly don’t. I also don’t think Germans born after 45 are automatically blameless just because they were not involved in the crimes committed by their parents or (great) grandparents (the latter applies to most Germans alive today). Germans today carry their own burdens. Knee-jerk support for Israel is one of them. One reason, I suppose, why many agree with Grass.
“Hopeless bunch, you say? Is your economical status that good?”
No, but I no longer live in Germany. Economic concerns have driven German support for Israel since the end of WW II and the “reparation” settlements. Maybe more so than German guilt. German guilt or historical responsibility is, in many ways, just the self-serving moralistic wrapper around the whole mess. Grass, in his poem, addresses this by bringing up the submarine deals. You think the German arms industry, and German employment figures, do not benefit from those sales, even at discounts shouldered by the German taxpayer, at the expense of social programs, education, health care? Not to mention peace in the ME
Actually, the more I read the poem and think about it, the more I appreciate it. It would require a lot of commentary to flesh out the various taboos he attacks. “Hopeless bunch” referred to the current hysteria in Germany to identify the correct reaction to and interpretation of what Grass wrote, and why, as if there could not be the usual variety of opinions when it comes to certain topics. Or as if there was only one correct interpretation of a poem. Because this is absurd, critics, even literary critics, now question whether it is a poem in the first place. As if that solved the problem.
Yes, there is an obvious gulf between the various commentaries in the press, by politicians and intellectuals, and readers’ comments, as noted here and elsewhere. Would it matter if only 8 % of Germans, or nobody, agreed with him or found what he said worth saying? Not one bit. He would still have every right to say it, and in any form he wishes, with or without rhyme or reason
Antidote: “imprisoned by whom? ” Well, good point. looks as if the media and political class have joined hands (as they also have in the USA) to adopt an Israel-right-or-wrong line which they persist in (in criticizing Grass’s poem as also, it would seem, on the issues) but which there is some sign the rest of the people are beginning to tire of and perhaps reject in favor (I suppose) of free expression of political ideas.
Perhaps the German people will “feel their oats” and tell off the media and political class sufficiently to turn them around. We’ll have to wait to see. remember that Americans got tired of the Vietnam war and their (our) protests may have had something to do with ending it. Be nice to think so.
“The respondents who see Grass’ statements as correct or at least arguable: 84%.”
Number of scientific online polls: 0%
Seems in line with a poll comissioned by the European Union.
European Poll: Israel Biggest Threat To World Peace
link to jewishfederations.org
Hi Amar,
this seems to be an interesting story in itself. I tried to get to the “recent poll” but the data base of European Commission is not responding, Google hits are from 2003. In 2003 the big news was Cast Lead. Luckily for Israel (or unhappily, if you are Radical Leftist and you think that this “luck” leads to doom) EU is not particularly democratic, and foreign policy is not high on internal agendas of European governments which are easy to push.
Also, why a more recent poll would put Afghanistan on the list of contenders for “the largest threat to world peace”? Some wise people had enough political acumen to put neither Russia nor USA on the list, so it contain relatively puny players: Israel, Iran, Afghanistan and North Korea.
My impression is that the conclusion of EC was to never repeat such a poll. Basically, the stark truth is that pro-Israeli policies of European government are possible only because populations, while unfriendly, do not care too much, while elites are vehemently pro-American. American penchant to support Israel comes hell or high water is sometimes described as part of American exotic scene, like devotion to very large cars that are driven astonishingly slowly. (That is from Polish correspondent who mused about both issues, Poles living in USA were correcting him that it is not Americans who drive lethargically but Poles who drive in a suicidal manner, no defenders of Israel thought.)
@ pjotr
……In 2003 the big news was Cast Lead…..
In 2003, pjotr, that was another one….; Cast Lead was only dec2008/Jan2009.
But i do sympathize: Given the frequencies of Israel’s wars – one just looses oversight, no?
speaking of polls, this one is rather infamous.
Misreading Arab public opinion on Iran’s nuclear program
link to mideast.foreignpolicy.com
sullivan links to it and asks/answers “Does The Arab Public Fear Iran?….Nope”
meanwhile goldberg is claiming The Arab states,… look upon the Iranian regime with fear and loathing.
link to theatlantic.com
HA!
I’m sure you think you’ve made a clever point, Annie, but Goldberg wrote Arab states, not the Arab street. And contrary to the conclusions of Professor Rouhana, I don’t believe we’ve reached the point where Arab states and Arab publics are synonymous, not in places like Saudi Arabia, anyway.
Perhaps you can explain why, other than hatred, Arabs in the UAE would feel threatened by Israel, or what “Arab national security” is, since there are lots of Arab states. Israel has never threatened to wipe the UAE off the map.
@hophmi
“The respondents who see Grass’ statements as correct or at least arguable: 84%.”
Number of scientific online polls: 0%
But 100 % sure is, that all those 84% are 100% Anti-Semites!!
Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Anti-Semitism went out of fashion in Europe thanks to the disgust over how far it went in the Holocaust. Now that the Holocaust is no longer fresh in people’s minds, the old anti-Semitism is re-emerging. 1000 years of European anti-Semitism isn’t going to go away forever because of a little guilt.
No mention of Israel and its defenders going so far as to lead to a reaction?
“Now that the Holocaust is no longer fresh in people’s minds, the old anti-Semitism is re-emerging. 1000 years of European anti-Semitism isn’t going to go away forever because of a little guilt”
And the only thing which might possibly keep this awful plague of anti-semitism from arising with new virulence is stealing more land from and dispossesing more and killing more Palestinians! Wow, does that make perfect sense.
And I can’t help but stand aghast with admiration at the crowning touch of real Jewish genius which discovered the objective correlation which Zionism operates on: ‘Since all them no-goodnik Europeans are a first-class bunch anti-Semites, the only possible course is to arouse as much hatred in the Arab world as possible!’ Of course!
It all just shows how stupid a poor Jew like me is, without Hasbaratchniks to explain it him. How could I not see that only oppressing the Palestinians can keep European anti-Semitism in check!
Actually Fred it is a new very virulent form of anti-semitism that we are witnessing. See link to fullcomment.nationalpost.com where Kofi Annan said,
“It is hard to believe that, 60 years after the tragedy of the Holocaust, anti-Semitism is once again rearing its head. But it is clear that we are witnessing an alarming resurgence of this phenomenon in new forms and manifestations. This time, the world must not, cannot be silent.”
@Mooser: this ruse that Israel’s behaviour is responsible for anti-semitism is just anti-semitism in disguise. It is blaming the victim Israel for not kowtowing to the wishes of the Arab world who want a Jewish Israel to disappear down the plughole of history.
uh huh, let me guess, it’s the ‘new’ anti semitism/anti zionism. nothing like being in total denial mayhem.
@Annie: Pray tell why you flippantly suggest denial on my part. I have witnessed plenty of it emanating from your keyboard in your denial of the advent of serious anti-semitism in Europe and the denial of rampant anti-semitism across university campuses.
because you are denying people’s rightful and justifiable anger at the occupation and ethnic cleansing of palestine and israel’s aggression and driving force to start another war with iran, in our name. you are diverting from the topic to talk about anti semitism. there are other denials besides your obsession. there is nakba denial too. there is denial of the fear of israel’s arsenal. this is not anti semitism, it is fear of israel’s militaristic nationalism supported by the global superpower. anti zionism is not the same as anti semitism, you cheapen your cause and you cheapen real anti semitism when you wield it like a little wimp weapon against valid claims of oppression.
PS, it’s only an alleged anti-semitism across university campuses. all this recent hyperventilation amounts to nada. your accusations of anti semitism are like a baby blanket you cannot let go of. is there racism on american campuses, including islamophobia? of course. do jews have it worse off than other ethnic groups in america? no. it’s just not much of a problem here. generally in american most people like jews. israel? not so much.
Victim? Israel? Please Mayhem – as someone who has declared themselves an Aussie don’t embarrass me!
This is what that link says everybody – read:
“The new anti-Semitism involves the discrimination against, denial of, or assault upon the right of the Jewish people to live as an equal member of the family of nations, with Israel as the targeted “collective Jew among the nations.”
Israel is the”collective Jew”! Did you read that Mooser?
The “Inter-parliamentary Coalition for Combating Anti-semitism” appears to be led by Yuli Edelstein, who’s blurb goes on to brag about his refusal to give up an inch of occupied land.
Designating Israel as the “collective Jew” is all about providing a fig-leaf to permit Israel to carry on its ethnic cleansing and obliteration of Palestine.
link to antisem.org
is their website andprovides the answers.
Mayhem: suppose, arguendo, that old-fashioned AS is rising in Europe and that anti-Zionism is not serious except as a cover. In such a case, why are Israelis moving back into and resettling in Germany? Also, even if AZ is but a cover for AS, can’t it get traction anyhow? And, thus, isn’t Israel’s better course to make a fair (“just and lasting”) peace with the Palestinians rather than continuing to torment them in what the world knows is an indefinite continuation of the apartheid-style 1SS?
Noah’s flood, and many other ones, I’m told, began when water in a lake or inland sea got so high that a slight trickle began to run out. The trickle dug a slight groove as it ran out, allowing the speed of the run-off to increase. As time passed, the groove got deeper and the run-off became a flood. Better not to be down-stream then.
Gunter Grass’s poem meant to be a warning against an aggressive Israeli war with Iran, for Grass remembered what some Israelis seem to forget that WWII began with Germany’s immense war of aggression, not with the Holocaust — although that happened too. The poem and the German responses to it seem only a trickle today, nicht war? But one may hope for a flood.
“Israel is the”collective Jew”! Did you read that Mooser?”
Oh, I don’t need Mayhem or Fredila to tell me that they’re a bunch of Commies in Israel. I would rather live with a bit of anti-Semitism than be subject to Communist collective rule.
Mooser,
I am not convinced that people in Europe are very exercised over stealing land etc. In more easterly parts classic anti-Semitism is rife and these people do not like Semites and do not care too much which Semites steal from other Semites. But Israel is arrogant and perceived as arrogant. Elites in governments and media may repeat at occasion about moral superiority of Israel, but without much zest and without any reception.
Israel is riding on American support, while Europeans increasingly perceive USA as weird. Why they drive so slowly? Why they watch boring sports? Why they detest universal health insurance? Why they torture? And why they support Israel?
@Fred:
Germany has learned and paid painfully for the Nazis and the world learned and will never forget. The reality is that the generation of Germans who were cowed into silence by Israel and didn’t feel at liberty to speak up against it’s crimes because of their own shame of actions and complicity are dying out.
It really would have been fairer if Germany gave Bavaria to the Zionists, but instead Palestine’s population became the victim of the victim turned victimiser.
Israel is criticised for what it does and that’s exactly what Grass did.
Those who don’t learn the lessons – 1000 years of history? Please…..
Hasbara really are paying you too much if that the best you can come up with.
ROFL. I love how you are so steeped in your own worldview that the only way you can conceive that someone could disagree is if they are paid to. I do this for fun. Nobody pays me to write here. Realize that people can honestly and sincerely disagree with you. It will explain a lot.
try addressing that fred.
the fact remains israel n’ friends fork out millions for hasbara (and 100′s of millions for pr), if and when the paid variety ever out themselves, that will be the day you will not be suspect. up until that time maybe you could try explaining why the best, most trafficed i/p site in the US would not be heavily targeted by organized funded hasbara activity. or ignore the smears and forcus on the argument like that blockquote. all you got is the divert.
Thanks for getting my back Annie. I’m on UK time and have only just read Fred’s reply.
@Fred: Thanks for clearing that up. I don’t think it’s a case of you needing to prove anything. Your word is good enough.
But can you understand why I said it? Your comments are playing on Holocaustology. The world isn’t forgetting what happened. It can’t. What is happening is the world is realising is that a group of completely unrelated people have been paying for what occurred in Europe 70 years ago. The Germans aren’t ashamed to call it out any more. That’s not antisemitism. That’s precisely how it should be, but Israel has resorted to name calling and evoking memories of the holocaust to keep the wheels on the cart and cow those who dare raise their voice. That’s what you’re doing.
We are talking about what Israel does. They stop doing it, they are all good with me and I’ll happily join you in the fight against antisemitism.
“I do this for fun. Nobody pays me to write here.”
Thanks for admitting you are too stupid and too uniformed to even get paid for your Hasbara idiocies.
Say Freddy, those blue-and-white boxing truncks with “The Great Jewish Hope” embroidered on the ass are sagging, be a mensch, pull them up. You push plenty of crack around here without us having to see that.
You’re desperate for this to be true (even though it obviously is not), since you view it as a justification for all of the vindictive, callous brutality and violence that the Israeli state stands for. Not that that would have anything to do with it, would it? If you insist on saying that Israel represents all Jews (which it clearly doesn’t) then you can’t complain when people are repulsed and worried by Israel’s addiction to violence and occupation, not to mention lying about it incessantly, and therefore see it as an unstable belligerent threat to everybody in the region. Which state has been threatening and waging war for the last umpteen years in the ME? Your inept propaganda dept has tried to make it taboo to discuss Israeli violence for years – it is becoming impossible to ignore now, people are appalled and want to discuss it – that’s called freedom of the speech btw, an alien concept for you I know.
I don’t think what Israel does needs any justification from anything Europe does. I think the Palestinians and others in the countries that surround Israel provide ample justification for far more violence than Israel actually performs. I don’t say Israel represents all Jews. That is the position of people like that terrorist in France who thought that murdering Jews in France was the correct response to collateral damage in Gaza.
That’s also the position of Bibi and the Israeli administration in general.
Israel sees itself responsible for world Jewry.
I don’t remember who it was, a couple of years back, that suggested French Jews emigrate to Israel en-masse after an attack on a Jew, but I remember Sarkozy got his panties in a bunch over the suggestion.
As a rule, international Jewish organizations support Israel, Israel’s government and Israeli government’s actions unequivocally and profess to represent the Jews in those countries when they do so.
Fred the facts just do not back up what you repeat. Israel is the initiator and perpetrator of violence. Persistent illegal building of settlements and illegal housing and all of the consequences of those illegal acts.
There is no way around it. Just goes on and on..the Israeli violence
link to ifamericansknew.org
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
This one is especially revealing
Israeli soldier ” I don’t know what we are doing here. Purification maybe. It’s dirty here. I don’t know what a good Hebrew boy is doing here so far from his home”
I have heard from many people who have gone to witness that racism in the Israeli army and in the majority of the Israeli public is common. Racism permeates the Israeli public. I have heard this over and over again
link to youtube.com
link to observers.france24.com
You have the right to say whatever you want (in the U.S., with certain well known limitations, like threats). The reason that anti-Israel rhetoric looks like anti-Semitism to me is that it comes from people who are criticizing Israel alone of all the countries in the world. Even though many of those countries are engaged in actions literally 1000s of times worse than anything Israel does. North Korea has slave labor camps, one almost the size of Los Angeles, where hundreds of thousands of people at any given time are being forced to work and breed in order to produce the next generation of slaves who will spend their entire short lives (most dying by about 50) being worked and starved to death in service of the dictator. And you complain about people being woken up in the middle of the night so their homes can be searched?
fred, how do you know what people here think about north korea. i just watched a documentary on abuse of domestic workers (mostly from the philippines) in hong kong the night before last. it’s appalling. why would i discuss that here? it’s completely off topic but i have an opinion on it and it’s very similar to the immigrant argument in calif and arizona, but again, it is off topic on this blog. how can you even know what peoples other interests or activism includes? you don’t. you’re hypothesizing. period.
And you know what thought did….Palestinians never consented to being occupied by foreigners.
“Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.”
Are you talking about turning religion into a “nation”? Cause I agree, anybody who hasnt’ learned that lesson is doomed.
“American Grass” equivalents: Chomsky, Jimmy Carter, Walt-Mearsheimer, perhaps Finkelstein – all powerful voices that have been marginalized and virtually ignored by the MSM.
Not just Germany. Also Britain. Remember, George Galloway, running for a minor party, Respect, recently won the by-election in Bradford West by a landslide on an antiwar program, a landslide that surprised and shocked most observers. Yes, he did well among the many Muslims in the constituency, but he also won the white districts.
Yes the MSM in Britain is trying to ascribe Galloway’s victory to the significant Muslim population of Bradford West but the polls show that he won the non-Muslim vote too. A vote against both New Labour and the ConDems. In the past the Lib-Dems have been the party of between-general-election protest but having hitched their wagon to the Conservatives they have left room for Respect.
Galloway is a raffish firebrand. His rhetoric appeals to the passions of those who share his views but in American polite society, including the MSM, he’s featured as a loopy exremist much like Jim Trafficant. His blount style can be abbrasive but he’s no Jim Trafficant. He’s smarter, more articulate and he cuts right to the chase when he talks about the big problem with Israel: Zionism.
My favorite George Galloway moments. He decked Norm Coleman, Senator Levin and others in the US congress for their list of lies. He summarizes the endless lies and the horrific consequences. You can get high watching this full clip of Galloway knocking these liars out
link to youtube.com
Thanks for the link – it was hilarious! Wish we had a few politicians like him over here.
Norm Coleman is now one of Romney’s foreign policy advisers.
The other day on another Gunter Grass thread, I wrote ponderingly whether Gunter had started a German Spring to free the German youth from the dictatorship of the holocaust. Perhaps I wasn’t too far off the mark.
So many chains, so little time – ultimately, this is the universalist message of Gunter’s poem.
I am also enjoying this Gunther Grass discussion as a kind of liberation. Being the son of German refugees from the Holocaust and having grown up in the now defunct Jewish children’s in the Bay Area, I got my share of anti-Germanism and blind support for Israel while growing up. Though I think my parents have never been as crude as the institutional establishment I had also to take as my parent. Although I had seen many rabbinical student’s VW cars at Hebrew Union College in LA for a summer program right after I left high school, I was still living in this world of a pulsating evil Germany that had to be watched. Israel remained the only answer. What changed much of this perception for me? At the end of the sixities I was in New York and I saw the film version with subtitles of Grass’ “Cat and Mouse.” The film showed young people mocking German authoritarism and the Iron Cross in Danzig, my mother’s hometown. That made Germany a real place for me. And I mean Germany became a place where bad things did and can happen. Germany also became a place where criticism could take place and good things could happen as well.
I need to add that I had joined the Socialist Party, USA when Norman Thomas was still alive, Erich Fromm was a member, the contridictory Michael Harrington was a member, and where I learned much about what it means to be anti-war from David McReynolds. I also remember Helena and Ernst Papnek who where in the SP, Ernst had lead the Austrian Social Democratic youth after WWI. Both had set-up childrens homes in Europe to save children from the Holocaust, namely a bakery owner I knew in the Bay Area and likely my uncle by marriage. The SP was in the Socialist Interantional. It was a big thing when the Social Democrats got back into power in Germany with Willy Brandt and we knew Grass had worked hard for this. (Grass I believe had spoken in an apartment on the Upper West Side where I was not invited.)
I want now to get back to what I learned from McR about the anti-war perspective. And I don’t mean necessarily in what I learned in detail from McR. I became aware that many in Europe, particularly Central Europe, did not want to be in a battleground for nuclear war. I believe this was an issue in the Social Democratic Party in Germany and part of the reason for the emergence of the Green Party. Many in the old SP and in the Jewish establishment simply saw this as “pro-Communism.” I saw this emerging German anti-war position for what it was and is. Large numbers of Germans simply did not and do not want another war on their soil or anyone else. That to me seemed like a more positive basis for political action than anti-Communism.
I am not an expert on Grass and I do not read German. I think his writing has always been anti-war. Grass was not an officer in the German army, he was not a war planner. He was a kid who got caught up in his time. He overcame the world he was given better than most of us. I accept his criticism of Israel, and indirectly of US policy, because he has tact. He acknowleges all that Germany did wrong at one time. Maybe now is the time to thank Germans who not only would protect Jews from the Holocaust, but also who have the courage to say “enough.” The Holocaust can nolonger be a crutch for any kind of war or ethnic cleansing. Jews have lived without hope long enough. (Yes Israel’s national anthem “Our Hope” is not the song of a hopeful country.) It is time for Israel to engage with its neighbors and disclose its nuclear arsenal. It is time for Israel to work for a nuclear free Middle East and world. Grass has opened up much and I support him.
So if visions of hope mean anything, as Passover is concluding, we should say: “Next year in a shared Jerusalem.”
i dig the whistling in that song~
NYT: Once a taboo [...] – Guess where.
Nah, at least NYT, after nine days, forced to react, did not smear him with anti-Semitism (at my first reading).
Still NYT skips the poem itself: Israel is an atomic power, unchecked by UN/IAEA, war-mongering against Iran, and Germany supplying submarines to launch their A-bombs.
Also, I can note: all German politicians are silent, so far (clearly they all live in the yellow, six-pointed starred, submarine) .
Pundits like MRR and Schirrmacher are as evasive as NYT is — or even worse. The Suddeutsche Zeitung, who published the poem, has tagged follow-up posts with: Antisemitismus – Israel – Nahost-Konflikt. See? For those interested, just check what writers FAZ invited. German media: damage-control mode.
You should be glad about Germany supplying subs to Israel to launch nukes. Subs give Israel second strike capabilities. Second strike capability means that after an all out attack by the enemy (say, nuking Tel Aviv and the rest of Israel) you can retaliate at a level that will destroy the enemy. It puts the “mutual” in “mutually assured destruction”.
In the game theory of nuclear war, if you have first strike capability, but not second strike capability, and your enemy is about to get first strike capability, your only safe course of action is to wipe them out while you can. With second strike capability, you can afford to let any rational enemy get nukes without having to destroy that enemy first.
And which nuclear armed enemy would that be Fred?
>> In the game theory of nuclear war, if you have first strike capability, but not second strike capability, and your enemy is about to get first strike capability, your only safe course of action is to wipe them out while you can. With second strike capability, you can afford to let any rational enemy get nukes without having to destroy that enemy first.
Iran was foolish not to have developed second-strike (or even first-strike) capabilities decades ago, in order to keep an irrational, oppressive, expansionist, colonialist, war-mongering Jewish state at bay.
As it currently stands, Iran must develop a nuclear deterrence capability before those Jewish state madmen make good on their existential threats against it.
@straightline
“About to get first strike capability” as in, not there yet, but working on it.
Oh please. If Israel were expansionist, they wouldn’t keep giving back the Sinai every time they take it from Egypt.
Great. Now give back westbank etc.
>> If Israel were expansionist …
It’s not? I must’ve missed the part where the Jewish state never expanded beyond Partition borders and continues to colonize the West Bank.
And which nuclear army would that be, Fred?
Baruch R: “I became aware that many in Europe, particularly Central Europe, did not want to be in a battleground for nuclear war.” You can always find few misfits. Was there any scientific poll with that question?
As a student for two semesters we had to have military training once a week, and having a non-military grade of health, my classes were in Civil Defense, and half of the classes were under assumption that we work “under conditions of the use of weapon of mass destructions”. We had a formula to compute diameters of Zones of Destruction, Zone 1: survival only in Class 1 shelter (for government and top command), no upright structures left, Zone 2: firestorms, Zone 3: you have to assume that you are not anywhere closer to Ground Zero, so at least 3 miles away in the case of thermo-nukes. So our classes were assuming Zone 3 or Zone 4.
There were excellent plans for all aspects of nuclear defense. In the state of Highest Alert the populations from newer parts of town would quickly dig 15 feet deep trenches, cover with timber and top with soil, and construct air filtering devices. With some blankets, water and food sheltered population would change able-bodied operators of air-filtration (kind of like operating smith’s bellows) every hour or so and hope that some very stupid people would drive into the middle of the contaminated zone to pull them out of their improvised shelter. Although we learned that this was not dangerous at all if you properly shower and hose away all the radioactive dust. (Do not even think about showering indoor and contaminating pipes in your building.)
Few years later I has hitchhiking from Paris to East Germany (where I could purchase train ticket for my honest Proletarian currency). France was nice, then in Germany driving was somewhat slow because of slow convoys of American military everywhere. Then as I was approaching the Iron Curtain, the highway became more of a country road and I was getting rides of few miles only, at length I have seen a double line of barbed wire fences with no-man-land in between. By night I was on the other side, on a train, and I have seen a military train of Soviet tanks. It was nice to see that folks were prepared on both sides.
actually critics of grass’ poem are correct, putting israel and iran on the same moral platform is insane. after all iran, internal repression aside, hasn’t engaged in wars of conquest; indeed, its only war in the last century was in defending itself against iraq’s 1980 invasion. otherwise, no mass murder of civilians, no crimes against humanity. yes, it’s a theocracy but so what, isn’t israel’s “jewish & democratic” more of the same?
The problem in Germany is not only with the German government. Lufthansa Airlines, which at least used to be a German company, at Israel’s demand/request, has canceled tickets for Israel’s list of “flytilla” passengers.
I think that an airline has no choice on this matter.
It is up to the governments to react to the abuse of their citizens.
I’ve said this elsewhere: Israel has shown the way! (Yay!). BOYCOTT commercial airflights! Israel has obeyed the commandment “to just say No!” and the European governments (at the urging of their people, natch, and not without such urging in this pro-Israel political world) should BDS-like cut all commercial air traffic with Israel — UNTIL:
Well, there’s the rub. BDS until what wonderful event?
Let the people speak! My suggestion is: BDS until Israel complies with UNSC resolutions (despite USA veto, there actually are some good ones!) including UNSC-465 (1980) which orders Israel to remove all settlers and dismantle all settlements; and ICJ-2004 which declares it the duty of all states to secure that Israel remove the wall.
Great post Annie. Thanks for continuing to focus on this issue
thanks kathleen, thanks for all your many efforts and contributions too. massively appreciated from my end.
Met several women who were part of the flytilla group at the Occupy Aipac conference protest in DC. Trying to find their contact information they had wanted to talk to someone about writing something for Mondoweiss. They were wonderful. Will look for their contact info
Move over Alfred Brendel and Deitrich Fischer-Dieskau, Herr Eggert does it all!
Germany’s new national ideology of pro-Semitism
_____________________________________
Here is a nice piece: ‘Gunter the terrible’ by Uri Avneri in counterpunch:
“Germans, as is their wont, are a bit more thorough here than others. The term “Antisemitismus” was invented by a German (a few years before the terms Zionism and Feminism), and anti-Semitism was the official ideology of Germany during the Nazi years. Now the official German ideology is pro-Semitism, again going to extremes.”
This explains the extreme reaction in Germany by our intellectuals who think they must act/write as the intellectual-moral bodyguard of Israel.
@ Klaus/Avneri:
“Germany’s new national ideology of pro-Semitism”
Frankly, I don’t see much, if any, difference between Germany and Canada. Are Canadians “a bit more thorough here than others”? And if so, why?
For what it’s worth I think Grass is sort of getting a pass, not least however by the predictably knee-jerk “Nazi Nazi Nazi” reaction from Israel, but also by people overlooking what he actually was talking about so as to see some good in it.
Look, Grass wasn’t just talking about the dangers of an Israeli strike on Iran’s nuke facilities: He was talking as if there’s some real, tangible threat to be concerned about now with Israel nuking Iran generally. (Hence the talk about the subs.)
And that’s just either the product of a fevered, amateur, suspiciously obsessed mind at best, or blatant fear-mongering at worst.
So what saves moron Gunter? Well first is Netanyahu and Co. Instead of saying it’s repugnant—which I think it probably is—to suggest that there’s any evidence that Israel would ever use weapons of mass destruction on another country or even possess them other than to prevent or retaliate against them being used against it, no, they go the “Nazi” route.
And this then just contributes to either the overlooking or pretending away of that nub of what Grass was hyperventilating about so as to pretend that gee, all Grass was saying was that it’s okay to criticize Israel now, which of course it always was.
Grass does seem an idiot politically. Lots of countries have nuclear weapons. And there’s not a particle of evidence that Israel has any idea of using the ones it has in any way different than the most responsible of the others. I.e., simply as a deterrent. And yet his poem sure seems to suggest a big real danger that Israel is at the very least contemplating if not happily planning to annihilate all of Iran.
That’s just totally, utterly unsupported, and so extreme as to indeed suggest that if there wasn’t some malice involved there it must be the work of the crudest of hysterical, self-absorbed minds.
Unfortunately because of the reaction in Israel the focus is on the malice possibility which doesn’t seem to fit. But the rest sure does and it isn’t flattering that’s for sure.
“He was talking as if there’s some real, tangible threat to be concerned about now with Israel nuking Iran generally…”
No sh… So the most aggressive, nuclear-armed, state post-1945, the one who brought you ongoing war since 1948 plus four major international aggressions, untold massacres, ongoing ethnic cleansing and continually repeated explicit threats of new wars, nuclear and non, does not represent a tangible threat?
Do your supervisors at the Propaganda-Abteilung seriously believe that we are all morons?
ROFL. “most aggressive”. That would be the U.S. these days bub, and don’t you forget it. Oh, and that’s “participated in one aggression along with the UK and France and had three major defensive wars.”
To begin with, you are a ‘schlub’? This is Yiddish but I can’t see a German origin.
- “He [Grass] was talking as if there’s some real, tangible threat to be concerned about now with Israel nuking Iran generally. (Hence the talk about the subs.)
And that’s just either the product of a fevered, amateur, suspiciously obsessed mind at best, or blatant fear-mongering at worst.”
________________
Grass probably means that the consequences and dynamics following from a strike with conventional weapons on Iran could be the nuclear destruction of Iran.
Let me tell you something about German thinkers/authors/philosophers:
They think, they have a hunch of things to come. And I think Grass does.
(Normally I tend to ridicule our German ‘thinkers’.)
But I myself think that Israel would blow up the world if they are cornered.
After all, Jews matter more than Gentiles.
________________
Do you remember the German-Jewish Heinrich Heine saying: Who burns books, also burns people. – He had a hunch of things to come.
She managed to get into the bunker, and when she left,
“But I myself think that Israel would blow up the world if they are cornered.
After all, Jews matter more than Gentiles.”
Say, Klaus, could you put a number, a percentage on how much more Jews matter to Jews as opposed to Gentiles. I mean, you know, just for the hell of it?
Then we can argue over the number, and the essential anti-Semitism of your statement will be somewhat elided.
Klaus Bloemker wrote:
“To begin with, are you a ‘shlub’?”
I think people are failing to put this Grass poem in relative perspective.
What, after all, would we say to someone who used poetry and its poetic license to escape the normal requirement to talk about at least a molecule of evidence or logic or etc. in asserting that, say … it’s really something to actually be worried about that the Germans of today—indeed their present leaders—will be firing up the ovens in concentration camps again? That same is something really topical and possible enough to occupy our attention?
And yet, this is *exactly* what Grass has done as regards Israel and it’s present regime and the idea that they are seriously thinking about the nuking all of Iran.
God knows I’ve been critical of Israel and God knows I don’t like its present regime and think that the latter’s ideas about Iran are as selfish and bad as it can get almost.
But not to the point of believing ‘em wanting or thinking about nuking all of Iran.
The fact is there’s not been a speck of talk of Israel nuking Iran generally; not a fucking speck. And indeed I suspect that any Israeli in any political position who came out and talked like that would be ejected from the body politic of Israel like a rocket, not least out of a *genuine* belief by the jewish population that they oughta be the last people on earth to be casually talking about unleashing a Holocaust on someone else.
And yet here comes self-appointed Gunter, with his picture eerily showing an old man in just about the same shambles as his “thinking” is in his poem, casting that precise aspersion on all of Israel.
… and then, *absolutely devastatingly* considering that it means “gee I’m sorry for so horribly slandering all you others because it was so shambolic,” having to say “oh no, gee, I only meant Israel’s current *regime.*”
(Despite the fact that of course the submarine sale that set him off is to the Israeli permanent government.)
Like I say, the only thing that saved Grass was the dumb nature of the reaction from Israel seeing Grass as being a Nazi rather than a man with a stupid, hysterical shambles of a thought process, and then others trying to say that all Grass was doing was saying criticizing Israel is okay which of course it is.
It was a terrific slander, an incredibly stupid slander, and if it makes me a “shlub” to say so then I’m a shlub.
And what an irony: Just as Grass was saved by the dumb reaction of Israel, so in a sense is Israel saved by the stupidities of people like Grass. What a gift, after all, for Netanyahu and his sort! “*This* is the level of argument that we have to contend with in the West? *This* sort of stupidity instead of any informed, really trenchant stuff? Essentially accusing us of wanting to nuke everyone? Oh thank *God* for you, Gunter!”
@Sin Nombre
Your point about the over-reach of Gunter is well taken. Consider, however, that the goal of communication is more the result of the act, rather than the essence of the words spoken.
I believe that Gunter’s goal was to be controversial, and “poetic license” is precisely the vehicle he desired. There is no way that he could stand and debate on his own (or so I presume). He chose to be the catalyst for emotions that would fling open the doors for others to do so. His flame is nearly spent, and he chose this as his swan song.
Could he have been more effective choosing an alternate route? Perhaps – I am not prescient enough to comment on that. An 84-year 0ld man struck out in the best way he knew how. Only time will tell if his efforts were in vain.
‘I think people are failing to put this Grass poem in relative perspective.”
No they most certainly ain’t!
You just don’t get the evident hatred and racism that zionists feel and exercise against Arabs, moslems and christian europeans. So what, like you need a ‘statement’ of annihilation from the zionist regime? Don’t you know they prefer to work in the silent shadows on their ‘clash of civilization’ plan? Don’t you know that in order for zionism to be a majority in the world they gotta get rid of, well, the majority opposition? Don’t you know that they’ve already decided on the ‘Samson Option” if the plan fails?
I know you’ve heard of ‘poetic justice’, so now you’re learning about ‘poetic truth’. There is NOTHING untrue in Gunter’s poem. Truth is NOT slander.
Here’s what Israel National News published the other day by Itamar Yaoz-Kest in response to Gunter’s poem:
“For it is the right of the Nation of Israel to finally shut the gates to the world after it leaves this place (not of its free will!), and we have the right to say, at the price of the 3,000 year old fear: “If you force us yet again to descend from the face of the Earth to the depths of the Earth – let the Earth roll toward the Nothingness.”
Here’s Yaoz-kest’s poem to Gunter that accompanied his statement above:
“Danger,
I want to be a danger,
I want to be a danger to the world,
so that after my destruction, not a single blade of grass will remain on the face of the Earth,
or a single blade of grass for Gunther Grass’s pipe,
upon the Earth where, since I was born, I pose a danger to the world.
Because it is my right!
It is my right to live or die while annihilating my annihilators, without riding again as a crying-boy in a transport train,
Into the world-vacuum, while placing my head in the lap of a mother who is disappearing into the fresh air of the Land of Wotan,
and the urine tin darts dark-yellow specks onto the walls of the cabin – like gunshots that spray
a yellowish-reddish liquid from besides the train guards, and among them – maybe – the soldier G.G., also, wearing a steel helmet.”
Dude, don’t you know how fatally outta control a traumatized child becomes if they’re ‘indulged’ instead of given therapy and reality-checks?
CloakAndDagger and Taxi:
You do your perspectives proud, but it still seems to me that at bottom what you’re really saying is that your ends here—opening up Israel to legitimate criticism—justifies Grass’ means, or that it’s justified because some other outlying nut on the other side has done something similar.
Those are just such sad old rationalizations though, aren’t they? Seemingly indispensable at the time, always in retrospect we recognize them has having been unfortunately given in to as way-points on a downward ratchet.
Sin,
Why don’t you tell us which part of the poem you find untruthful? If Gunter was Palestinian would his words effect you differently? If you were Iranian reading Gunter’s poem, would you object to it?
Why so upset over the necessary breaking of a German taboo?
And you honestly think that Yaoz-kest’s sentiment is that of a lone wolf and not an example of a collection national psyche?
In your attempt at ‘centerism’, your argument, which is based on subjective emotion, has become as much of a cliche as you allude to mine and Cloak’s posts.
correction: “collection national psyche” should read: collective national psyche.
Taxi wrote:
“Why don’t you tell us which part of the poem you find untruthful?”
Gladly:
“It is the alleged entitlement for a first strike,
which could extinguish the Iranian people….”
And then of course the talk about the submarine, which Grass obviously objects to not because of it carrying any conventional weapons but because of its capacity to carry nukes.
Like I say, the clear message of the poem is that despite nobody but nobody having talked about this, much less anyone in any position of knowledge or authority, there’s immediate reason to be concerned that Israel—later amended to “it’s regime” by Grass—is thinking if not planning a nuclear strike on all of Iran, including its civilian population.
A “first strike” no less.
Now, if that isn’t a slander I don’t know what is. And forget the idea that it’s okay if you’re a Palestinian or a Martian because if I turn it around on them or anyone else any sensible person would find it just as slanderous.
E.g., how about we should be concerned about the Palestinians—or the PA—spreading poison gas over the Israeli? Or spreading some bio-weapon to “extinguish” them all?
And no, first of all Yaoz-kest’s sentiment is not on point here at all because what he’s talking about is his feelings about things if Israel is first obliterated. In less poetic terms a “second strike” sentiment, and even that overstates it because he’s not longing for such a strike, but instead saying he wants that capability more just to deter such an obliteration. I.e., precisely the deterrent idea that the U.S. embraces in keeping its nukes.
And if you want to criticize that, fine, except it’s a totally *different* thing from Grass’ “first strike” slander.
And secondly it then essentially says that no, even if Iran was working for nukes because *it* wants a deterrent then that treatment it is presently receiving is justified because no such deterrent right exists.
All this is just so obvious: Simply because Grass might have moved the debate in a direction some people approve of he’s getting applauded, with a blind eye to his means because people are so frustrated at seeing their ends not being achieved. And not only do I think this historically just serves to encourage such ugly tactic use on the other side of such arguments, but suspect that Grass’ riff here is ultimately going to hurt that cause of opening up debate in Germany.
And clearly it already has hurt the idea of recruiting any Israeli or jewish sympathy to the idea that Israel is on the wrong track, so objectively getting Grass precisely the opposite of what he says he wants. What Israeli or jewish individual with any sympathy for Israel isn’t just going to feel libeled by this, and react accordingly?
Hardly unforseeable, and thus even further contributes to the idea that Grass’ intention here wasn’t really to change minds or alert people to a real issue, but instead to slander and libel, and poke a finger in the eye of those he doesn’t like.
I’d still say that this wasn’t intentional and was instead the result of a shambling old intellect, but either way I think he’s actually hurt the cause he says he was writing for by writing such ugly, utterly unsupported words.
GG says, in the specific words he writes in ink, that Israel claims the right to use nuclear weapons in a ‘first strike’, ‘right’ (rather than intention) being the important word. He creates an image of the sudden mass destruction of Iranians gathered, slave-style, to hear the orations of their deluded, big-talking leader.
I think that this is a tragic and moving image, rather in the same genre as Belshazzar’s Feast. Is it created with sufficient care for facts?
No outsider knows whether Israel intends to attack Iran at all. It may be likely that any conceivable attack would be only on remote sites and only with sub-nuclear weapons. But I don’t think that it’s wrong for worst fears, as distinct from the analysed probabilities, to be voiced somewhere, perhaps in poetry, since poetry is about hopes and fears as well as about facts. I don’t even think that these are quite the worst fears or quite unthinkable on the level of facts.
It may be that the level of destruction considered to be essential is the reason why Israel’s hand has so far been stayed. But any array of nuclear weapons, at least if accompanied by threats, is a claim to the right to destroy people en masse. I don’t think that Israelis consider, at the leadership level at least, that they have no right to a first but only to a second strike. That is not enough in itself, of course, to prove that they’re in the wrong. The right to a first strike was claimed in the firmest terms by us in Nato in the Cold War years.
““It is the alleged entitlement for a first strike,
which could extinguish the Iranian people….””
You do know he’s using the word “alleged”, open to several interpretations here, right? And you do know that Iran’s nuclear plants are “alleged” to be installed at over fifty locations, right? Well you do the maths Sin: that’s a heckalotta places they’re ‘allegedly entitled’ to bomb in a first strike etc – and if Iran was getting superpower USA to help it bomb 50+ locations in israel, well then that would sure look like Iran wants to annihilate the israelis too.
We also look at Sharon and other israeli leaders and know that they always advance their military missions to the extreme and some more: back in 1982 we gave them the greenlight to go as far as Sidon/Lebanon and they just rolled their tanks past Sidon and occupied Beirut, therefore the whole country, against even our wishes and our interests – causing the deaths of some 23,000 people, mostly Lebanese civilians, in that summer alone. There are many more examples of israel’s willful intent on destroying civilians – you should be concerned about this israeli trait like Gunter is, like billions of people around the planet are.
Moreover, the world having seen only recently how israel intentionally bombed the civilians of Gaza and Lebanon – images of wanton destruction upon civilian populations still fresh in their memories – well…. need I spell out that the likelihood that the world at large, not just Gunter, would start to think of Apartheid ‘greater israel’ as possibly genocidal towards ALL it’s neighbors, near and far, including Iran. And where there is the ‘possibility’ of genocide, the moral people on this planet have a duty to speak out BEFORE it’s active occurrence – and NOT in it’s aftermath.
My friend, you cannot prove that israel has ANY good will towards ANY of its non-jewish neighbors – and this is very worrisome to the world at large due to israel’s own long history of willful violent rhetoric AND offensive deadly action. Gunter’s estimation is not slander, but based solely on israel’s excessively violent past and present.
And regarding the German submarine issue, I see it like this: since the end of WW2, several innocent generations of Germans have had to (unfairly?) carry the burden and dark guilt of their grandparents, convicted collectively for genocide – and Gunter sees any German hand in a nuclear fallout, directly or indirectly, as an even worse atrocity than the holocaust cuz next time round, the blue-eyed German people cannot look at images of charred brown-skinned corpses and say: “we didn’t know”. This is a legitimate concern of every patriotic German: they need to keep the blood off their hands for centuries to come before the demons of the holocaust can depart their collective psyches.
I’m sure you won’t find my arguments convincing, like I am not in the slightest convinced by yours. I have a feeling that you’re more emotionally attached to the state of israel than I could ever be – I do care about the jewish people, in the same measure that I care about Buddhists, atheists, et all, but I honestly don’t care about the ‘state of israel’ – I believe the holy land is Arab land and no european colonizer ‘greenifying’ the desert would ever change my mind about that.
Forgive me for saying this but I think you’re a little naive to think that israel does not intend to strike iran with all the deathly power and force it can muster. All indications of israel’s past behavior in the region and its ongoing warmongering would reasonably suggest otherwise.
That’s why Gunter is completely justified in writing his ‘poem’.
And to me, iran’s cultural heritage, older than judaism, should be respected by european jews, not threatened by force of destruction just because Iranians are a majority moslem for this span of contemporary time.
Taxi wrote:
“My friend, you cannot prove that israel has ANY good will towards ANY of its non-jewish neighbors…
I have a feeling that you’re more emotionally attached to the state of israel than I could ever be….”
Well I have absolutely no emotional attachment to Israel whatsoever and indeed as an American who thinks Israel has and is using my country like a piece of toilet paper have emotions that run in quite the opposite direction, but I think you have hit the nub of our difference in perspectives precisely here:
I.e., the idea that emotions ought determine judgment rather than something else, with emotions of course naturally tending to lead not toward modesty and balance, but instead toward the binary, absolutist conclusions that tends to be all they know. (“ANY goodwill, towards ANY of its non-jewish neighbors….”)
Not my cup of tea.
“Emotion has taught us to think.”
~Anonymous~
Primordial desire for everlasting love, acceptance, security, in a tumultuous and unpredictable world, is what taught us to think.
Thanks for your perspective, Sin Nombre.
The Grass is growing further:
As the most important cultural lead figure on the side of Grass I would see Alfred Grosser:
link to sueddeutsche.de
If Alfred grosser is on the side of Grass I think influentual German’s feel that the are allowed to take the same stand without too much risk.
And here comes the first top German politician to line up with Grass and his poem: The chief of Germans social democrats SPD Sigmar Gabriel defends Grass against “hysterical” criticism and reiterates naming situation in Hebron apartheid:
link to welt.de
SPD is the largest opposition party and Sigmar Gabriel may well become Germany’s chancellor in 2013. And it may well be that he can stick to his position. While the zionist elite in the top media positions tries to bring Grass down, the general public is still by a very large margin – overwhelmingly – on the side of Grass and his poem.
What’s the significance for world politics if Germany changes course? Luxembourg’s Foreign Minister Jean Asselborn explained it in the Spiegel, where he praised Grass for triggering “an important debate about how Germany should approach Israel’s decisions:”
Source:
link to spiegel.de
My personal feeling is that here in Germany are happening very important things in relation to Palestine at the moment. They may need some time, but if they contniue they will be absolutely irreversible. Will be very interesting to see if Christian Democrat Union chancellor Merkel and President Gauck will line up somewhere when time is ripe. Gauck was already public in 2006 with a speech against instrumentalising the holocaust and making a kind of religion out of the holocaust.
that is an amazing post bandolero. i’d like to see if we can front page it.
unfortunately i opened that der spiegel link. the opening was dire.
“… the opening was dire.”
Yes, of course. Germany is the most zionist country in the world. Criticism of illegal Israeli politics – and especially demanding sanctions (read Asselborn: … consequences if the government of Israel continues … ) – is a very big taboo in Germany. So what’s happening here in the discussion now is statements pretty much like “I’m a proven great friend of Israel but …”
What’s new is the “but”. Before it was: Germany will support without any questions everything Israel does and wants without any “but”. Israel commands, Germany obeys. Period.
That taboo wasn’t broken in Germany in the recent years in top positions of the crucial most powerful parties. If at all it came from the far right from an anti-semitic – almost Nazi – perspective or the far left – marginal parties like the communist left – and therefore led nowhere. Now it’s coming from center-left. That’s why I feel change coming.
The Gabriel interview is pretty much the same way. Gabriel criticises Grass for his anti-Israeli views, tells the world what good friend of Israel he – Gabriel – is, and at the same time he protects Grass – and with Gras all those who agree with Grass – against being banned by the pro-Israel hawks in the SPD – read Reinhold Robbe and the likes – and then bang:
link to spiegel.de
Gabriel was reprimanded by the Israeli ambassador and the ZdJ for using the term Apartheid, but he defends it. Grass said Israel is endangering world peace, Robbe and the likes responded Grass “has disqualified himself”, is persona non grata, but Gabriel brings Grass openly disagrees Robbe and the lobby.
It is careful, perhaps better say fearful, in form but he publicly and openly disagrees with the Israel lobby. I can’t remember a top SPD politician did the same in recent years. That is new for Germany. It’s change, slow change, but there is a change on the way in Germany.
thanks , very interesting given his political status.
Now it’s coming from center-left.
how does the center talk. how might the center react to this latest video, the idf bashing the danish bicyclist? does the center represent the median center or it is a designation of a ‘center thought concept’. what percentage of the german people are ‘center left’ if the polls are any true indication of public opinion. (say 57%).
i am biased of course so it is hard for me to conceptualize a ‘moderate’ person as supporting israels government position which is currently primarily so extremely radically rightwing. so when Asselborn says “But they must start to distinguish between the state of Israel and its government.” at what point does one measure the government of israel as a reflection of the people or the state? the same could be said about the US wrt congress and our foreign policy but in this regard i do think our size makes the government less representative of the people than a tiny country like israel.
anyway, wrt germany, when does the center left become the center the way israel’s rightwing has become the center? after all, even many self described left liberals in israel empower and support apartheid. there’s really no moderate position in israel anymore except for those labeled radical left.
“how does the center talk.”
We have no center in Germany. We have two large parties, the center-left SPD and the center-right CDU/CSU, which always have the chancellor, and a number of small parties: liberal business party (FDP – currently in government with CDU/CSU), greens (left-leaning and anti-nazi, but beginning with Joseph Fischer they became very zionist and pro-Nato), left party (a socialist party with some staunch anti-zionists, but also a very zionist wing) and a new party called the pirates (they are too fresh to play a large role so far). So who and what is relevant besides the SPD?
Most relevant is of course, the most powerfull political person in Germany: Angela Merkel (CDU). Immediately after Grass’ poem was published her spokesman was asked to comment. He had an answer, which was obviously prepared in advance. It went llike that (free quote from my memory): “The German government is happy that there exist the freedom of art in Germany. And the German government is also happy that the government has the freedom of not being oblieged to comment on each piece of art.” And since then: silence from Merkel and the top CDU people loyal to her.
Merkel’s typical style of discussion in politics is to wait very long with giving her on opinion and decisions. She doesn’t lead, but sums up the discussion at the end in a pragmatic way and goes where it seems most comfortable for her. She goes sometimes against other elites when a large majority of people wants it (eg Germany’s exit from nuclear energy) – and sometimes with lobbyists and elites when the public isn’t much interested and it seems better for her grab on power to do so. As far as I understand it Merkel is very much guided by opinion polls.
So where will Merkel go in regard to this discussion? Everyone is invited to guess, and it’s so tense and the topic so toxic and sensitive, that you could hear a pin drop. The only top guy of her cabinet who gave his opinion on the poem was foreign minister Guido Westerwelle from liberal paty FDP. He said pretty much everything the Israel lobby wanted to hear from him on the poem, but inbetween all the critics of that “bad” poem, than the typical mostly worthless phrases like the situation is very serious, German wants peace and a world without nuclear weapons, and then one important sentence:
Iran is entitled to run a civil nuclear energy programm.
link to bild.de
Bang. It is exactly that sentence that made Netanyahu fume after the Istanbul P5+1 talks.
My guess is: Merkel is the boss of the populist center-right business party. The German industry doesn’t want high oil prices and doesn’t want loosing market shares in Iran to Chinese companies due to strong EU sanctions against Iran. Having the SPD being more critical to Israel and having a large majority of the people being critical on Israel opens space for Merkel to follow that lead at the end of the discussion and move to a more balanced German foreign policy position regarding the middle east. I agree with Asselborn, that if Germany moves to a more balanced middle east position, it’s a very significant event.
“how might the center react to this latest video, the idf bashing the danish bicyclist?”
It’s a “non topic,” taboo to say anything for the German top politicians, they might be torn into pieces for German police brutality by the Israel lobby if they say anything on that danish bicyclist.
“anyway, wrt germany, when does the center left become the center the way israel’s rightwing has become the center?”
We have a very stable two-party consensus between CDU/SPD on the important topics and the founding of the federal republic a stable majority (~70%) for these two large parties together. If something moves in Germany, than when both of these parties move. The political direction of the two party consensus of these two parties over the recent years – or decades – I would describe as zick-zack. One has to rememer where the CDU comes from, after the war there were many old Nazis in the CDU – with Kurt Georg Kiesinger being chancellor a former high ranking Nazi turned into CDU boss was chancellor of the federal republlic of Germany. More rightwing is hardly possible, so Germany was not able to turn further to the right.
Please do not make yourself any illusions of Israels alleged not-so-rightwing past: Israel was very good friend with these German very rightwing governments at that time. Just think about the very friendly welcome of Nazi top criminal Hermann Josef Abs in Israel – 1969, I think it was.
But now, my impression is, things change in Germany. And when Germany changes, Israel has to change as well. So please continue paying attention to this story here in Germany, if Germany changes it’s position in regard to Israel, it’s very important.
Time has changed everything. The Nazi generation is dead and gone but so is the heroic generation that established Israel as the Jewish homeland. What we have now is a complete reversal of roles: Germany is the driving force behind European prosperity and stability while the Israel/U.S. war machine is the greatest threat to peace and stability today. What a grimly ironic turn of events.
“so is the heroic generation that established Israel as the Jewish homeland.”
Heroic??? Ethnic cleansing and stealing another people’s land is heroic???
“but so is the heroic generation that established Israel as the Jewish homeland.”
Excuse me, but what the hell is so herioc about, first, getting the backing of the major colonial powers in the area to establish a “Jewish Homeland” over a relatively helpless Palestine, and then turning around and breaking every promise, both in conduct and in area, including terrorising their nationals in the area and stealing the rest of the land? If there is anything at all “herioc” about the Nakba, please tell us about it. I for one, would love to hear about it, even if it contradicts everything I know about people and life.
Anyway, keep reading Mondoweiss. That’s what put an end to any fantasies I had about that “heroic first generation.”
And by the way Figaro, you can’t “establish” a “homeland”, that’s a contradiciton in terms. Some place is either your homeland or it’s not, and Israel wasn’t, not by a long shot. They did establish a Zionist regime, there’s no doubt about that.
As for me, of course, any place I hang my head is home. With an attitude like that, I can live anywhere.
great line about hanging your head.
Like all my greatest lines, I’m pretty sure it’s actually somebody elses, and I took the words right out of their mouth. But, as the Jewish housewife instructing her daughter in the intricacies of keeping a Kosher house said ‘Imitation is the sincerest form of Glattery’.
See what I mean? That one’s all my own.
cheap but good; i wish i’d said it
“you can’t “establish” a “homeland”, that’s a contradiciton in terms.” (Mooser)
- I agree with that line.
On-line poll in German state TV ‘ARD’.
___________________________
Germany has both publicly financed and state run TV stations as well as private, commercial ones.
The public channel ARD, also called ‘Channel 1′, is the most authoritative.
The result of their on-line poll on Grass is this:
- Grass went too far 14%
- I completely agree with Grass 51%
- I see Grass’ statements critical, but he initiated an important discussion 32%
- I don’t know 3%
Again, 83 % approve of Grass, more or less.
_________
You can already see political backtracking by the political/media establishment.
Somebody said it on Sunday night’s talkshow on ARD (I am paraphrasing):
‘So our alliance and support of Israel is obviously more a matter of our intellectual/political class than supported by the population. The politicans will have to explain, why we are supporting Israel.’ – That was on the question of military support and a German guarantee of Israel’s security, no matter what.