For those who claim that Gaza is not occupied. From Haaretz: "Environment Minister: Israel should cut power supply to Gaza in case of shortage."
Or as my friend Ilene Cohen writes, "This is just a taste of what occupation looks like—no agency, no justice, no fairness The occupier controls your lives."
From Haaretz. Oh and note that a population about 1/5 the size of Israel's uses less than 1/20th the power Israel uses.
Environmental Protection Minister Gilad Erdan on Sunday sought support from other government ministers to add a stipulation to any policy decision regarding the expected electricity shortages this summer. Erdan said that he wishes to add a clause to the agreement stipulating that if any electricity service needs to be temporarily stopped, such temporary outages should be implemented in Hamas-controlled Gaza, before affecting the power supply to residents of Israel....
Erdan pointed out that according to a study conducted by the Environmental Protection Ministry, Israel exports roughly 4.5% of electricity it generates to the Palestinian Authority. Thus Erdan suggests that if even after all countermeasures are in place, periodic stoppages of electricity need to be implemented, such outages should be felt in Gaza before in Israel...
"As the Environmental Protection Ministry is warning against a possible 'electricity drought,' steps are being made to counter it, including possible stops of service – there is no question, rather a clear decision in that case – Gaza first," Erdan said.
“For those who claim that Gaza is not occupied.”
So if one party does not transfer a resourse to another, than the former is considered as occupying the latter?
And surely, you mean “occupied” by Egypt, after all, Egypt can easily connect Gaza to its grid.
I guess that Egypt’s unilateral withdrawal from supplying gas to Israel
which forced us to move back to more environmentally damaging resources
for power production means that Egypt is actually occupying Israel.
And a few years back when Russia cat the gas Supply for Ukraine because they wouldn’t pay that also meant the Ukraine is an occupied country.
asherpat
“So if one party does not transfer a resourse to another, than the former is considered as occupying the latter?”
If you say so. No one else is. Meanwhile UNSC Res 1860 …ever read it? It says something about “occupied” wasn’t Egypt..
Israel has been occupying Palestinian territory since 1948 BTW. Never legally annexed, never un’occupied’.
Egypt has the 2005 agreement with Israel. Still in force … ever read it? Israel has the last say as to what goes in and out of Gaza. Israel will not allow the materials for infrastructure to build a line from Egypt to Gaza. Egypt hasn’t yet cancelled the Israel/Egypt Peace Treaty… would you like Egypt to breech the Peace Agreement?
I’ll bet you haven’t read GC IV either //Art. 59. If the whole or part of the population of an occupied territory is inadequately supplied, the Occupying Power shall agree to relief schemes on behalf of the said population, and shall facilitate them by all the means at its disposal.//
Sorry to poke more holes in your holey olde Hasbara. Next…
Israel exports roughly 4.5% of electricity it generates to the Palestinian Authority.
and how much of their resources originate from occupied palestine?
Yes, Annie, how much of Israel’s resources (let’s say as a percent of GDP, cos it gives an idea on how much Israel is “dependent” on anyting) comes from “occupied palestine”?
And how do you defined “occupied palestine”, tough pls answer the first question first?
Over half of Israel’s fresh water supply is stolen from the West Bank. Desalinated water is very expensive, but why buy it when you can steal it!
Israel isn’t a “Startup Nation” it is a basket case that ‘prospers’ on handouts (US) and stolen resources (Palestine).
@Sumud Exactly. GDP isn’t the measure. Israel simply wouldn’t exist in it’s current, self-described, “modern, western” form, if not for the stolen Palestinian resources.
That would depend on what you consider to be occupied palestine Annie?
asherpat / OlegR
” occupied palestine”
All the territory Israel has acquired by war and never legally annexed to Israel. Israel has never legally annexed ANY territory “outside the State of Israel, it’s one third of the territory Israel now illegally claims as its own.
There has been no official international recognition of Israel as anything other than “within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″
Have you any evidence of Israel legally acquiring any territory outside of the State of Israel?
I have heaps of evidence that it HASN’T! And that it acknowledged it’s borders with Palestine, before ever claiming any territory link to wp.me
Peter Beinart will come to the rescue.
/From Haaretz. Oh and note that a population about 1/5 the size of Israel’s uses less than 1/20th the power Israel uses. /
How did you come to that conclusion Philip.
That fact that we export 4.5% of our power supply to Palestinians does not meant it’s
their only source for power supply.
Here is a long and boring document if anyone actually is intersted in something more concrete than the usual Israel Bad /Palestine Good propaganda.
link to unispal.un.org
more concrete than the usual Israel Bad
High five Annie ..
The propaganda peddlers seem to think folk won’t check what they obviously don’t check?
There’s nothing in their rickety olde Hasbarrows but an endless supply of straw.
talknic, the facts simply do not paint a nice picture. it can’t all be swept under the rug as ‘propaganda’ as if..as if it’s our twisted perspective that makes israel look bad. israel looks bad because of their choices and actions. not to hard to figure that out.
thanks for all you do, the wealth of information at the tip of a hat always blows my mind.
Thank you for demonstrating your ability to selectively read Annie.
Here is more
”
A second unusual challenge faced by West Bank and Gaza is its fragmentation into two distinct
geographical zones with divergent economic characteristics. The West Bank, where most
Palestinian economic activity and a majority of the population are located, is landlocked and
without its own primary energy resources, but it does border Jordan which is well situated to
become a regional transit centre for energy. Gaza’s economy and population are smaller but still
substantial, but it has a more favorable energy supply perspective: substantial gas resources lie
offshore, it can receive supplies by sea, and it borders Egypt which is an energy-rich country that
provides a potential low cost alternative to energy supplies from Israel. ”
“The utilities have to develop the technical, financial and institutional capacity for the following
responsibilities:
• Manage the PA’s proposed investments in power transmission, distribution and
customer supply facilities. These measures are needed to reduce the high level of
technical losses in the power networks and to expand the capacity to distribute more
imported power to consumers as their demand grows. The investments will achieve these
aims by consolidating the numerous low voltage feeders into larger medium voltage
feeders served by new substations under Palestinian control. Investments are also needed
in new meters and meter reading equipment to reduce the commercial losses on billings
and to detect and reduce the theft of electricity. The estimated investment required
during the next four years to achieve these aims totals around US$196 million (US$128
million for the West Bank and US$68 million for Gaza
5
).
• Improve the collection of bill payments from electricity users. Even before the
collapse of payment discipline and hence collection of bill payments that occurred during
2006, the collection rates achieved by the power utilities were below normal commercial
standards needed to sustain financial viability. GEDCO had a particularly low rate (66%
in 2005), even allowing for the high number of its consumers in refugee camps. Among
5
US$39 million has been committed by donors to financing the investment requirements of Gaza. 6
the West Bank power utilities, JDECO and HEPCO had very high collection rates, but
SELCO achieved only 82% in 2005. Improvement in payment discipline has to be
developed by strengthening the internal incentives for the utilities and the external
incentives for consumers by the threat of penalties, and by the installation of pre-paid
meters. “
exactly what is your point oleg? we all know the WB borders Jordan which is well situated to
become a regional transit centre for energy, what difference does it make is israel controls the borders and won’t allow independence? notice how it says “is well situated to become”…meaning potentially. it could have happened decades ago. the EU has been investing in independent energy infrastructure in area C, israel is now threatening to demolish it all. try keeping up with reality, not some fantasy of palestinian inability divorced from the noose israel’s got around palestine. it’s occupied! israel won’t allow independence.
/oh please! you guys just hump eachother endlessly/
So nice to see you are consistent Annie :)
@ OlegR: Why all that waffle? Palestinians were operating their own electricity pre-Zionist occupation of their homeland and could again without needing an impostors approval.
OlegR May 14, 2012 at 5:31 am
Oooooops!! What a lame Hasbarabot
“and (iii) Israeli destruction of Palestinian power system facilities by military action, such as the June 2006 attack on the Gaza Power Plant that created a serious short-term crisis for power users in Gaza. These actions undermine Palestinian efforts to attract investment to its energy sector.”
Next
Demand: 360MW (100%)
Produced in Gaza: could be up to 80 MW (22,2%), but Israel restricts the import of fuel as a punitive measure , so it’s only 25 MW (6,9%)
Purchased from Israel: 120 MW (33,3%)
Purchased from Egypt: 22 MW (6,1%)
Total: 167 MW (46,3%)
link to ochaopt.org
(Includes power supply map)
link to ochaopt.org
@Talkback “but Israel restricts the import of fuel as a punitive measure”
Proof?
“Purchased from Israel: 120 MW (33,3%)” So Israel “restricts” with one hand, but sells with the other, these kinky Zionists…
They were buying gas at a loss to the Egyptians and then making a profit in selling that onto the Gazans/Palestinians.
Asherpat,
MW stands for “Megawatt”. Its a unit of electrical power, not a measure of fuel. Israel restricts the import of fuel into Gaza (as well as the importation of spare parts and equipment), so Gaza cannot produce as much of its own electricity as it otherwise could. Gaza is forced then to buy electricity (120 MegaWatts) from Israel, giving Israel a profit out of its restrictions on Gaza importations. There’s nothing “kinky” about it. Its just another way for Israel to exploit occupied territory for its own gain.
@tree, your argumentation is feeble. The fuel that Israel “restricts” the import of, is for use mostly if not all for the production of electricity. So what is the point to restrict it on one hand and supply electricity on the other hand? And why dont you (and most other commenters here) dont blame Egypt – after all, it can supply the “Zionist-restricted” fuel to the brothers in Gaza?
No asherpat, its your understanding that is feeble. If Israel didn’t restrict the fuel that Gaza could import, Gaza could be paying someone other than Israel for its fuel and have a measure of independence from Israel’s control of its electricity. Israel doesn’t simply refuse to sell fuel to Gaza, it prevents anyone else from doing so as well. This has been explained to you repeatedly.
Gaza is dependent on Israeli electricity, which it can not get elsewhere and which it has to pay Israel for. Its a captive market, which benefits Israel’s economy as such. And Israel can choose at any moment to cut off the supply, thereby immediately cutting off electricity. If Israel allowed fuel to enter Gaza from other sources than Israel, then it would not benefit from the sale of electricity to Gaza and it would not have immediate control over the electricity, as a reserve of fuel for the generators could be kept to keep them running if fuel were again cut off.
And why dont you (and most other commenters here) dont blame Egypt – after all, it can supply the “Zionist-restricted” fuel to the brothers in Gaza?
Again, this has been explained to you. According to the agreement between the Israel, the PA and Egypt, all goods to Gaza have to go through the Israeli crossings, not the one at Rafah, which is only a pedestrian crossing according to the terms of the agreement.
link to gisha.org
This link to the report from the Israeli NGO, Gisha, has been posted before. It might help you to actually read these things and not simply repeat ignorant arguments that bear no relationship to reality.
@ tree
“This link to the report from the Israeli NGO, Gisha, has been posted before. It might help you to actually read these things and not simply repeat ignorant arguments that bear no relationship to reality.”
That’s the reason why I didn’t answer asherpat. (S)He could read Gisha, OCHA oPt, B’Tselem, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch … . But (s)he DOESN’t want to know. (S)He just wants do deny. I’m bored with this autistic behaviour: Always repeating the same allready answered questions or disproven hasbara.
And I learned from Zionist apologists to draw this line: I won’t discuss with people who legitimize the destruction of Palestine and the expulsion of it’s citizens.
I agree that if I was simply trying to convince asherpat, I would be wasting my time. You’re right, he or she wishes to remain willfully ignorant and will never read any report. But I figure there are others out there that might in fact be willing to overcome their ignorance and read the reports. And besides, I think its worth it just to point out how totally wrong asherpat is on so many things. His/her credibility is non-existent at the moment.
Tree
Quite. People who support a Greater Israel don’t care what they say, how big a lie is, how many they tell or how utterly stupid they make themselves look. They’re purpose is to spread propaganda, muddy the waters, waste your time and frustrate.
Whatever they write, it’s an opportunity to show other folk who might be reading how vile …. twisted ….. and illogical are the tricks they try to use.
They’re a great foil, on which you can hone your arguments
A classic is the argument about whether Arabs have a deed (Civil Law) to real estate (property), when Israel is in breech of International Law regarding “territories”.
“property” (real estate) and “territory” are two separate words in UNGA and UNSC resolutions and in the UN Charter Chapt XI. ‘territory’ belongs to all its legitimate citizens, whether they own ‘real estate’, rent or lease ‘real estate’ or are bums living under a bridge.
Another classic is “why can’t Jews build homes in Jerusalem. (occupied territory since Aug 1948 BTW). Israeli citizens, be they Jewish OR non-Jewish, are prohibited from illegally settling in “territories occupied” under the GC’s. Furthermore the GC’s are there to protect ALL civilians, Israeli and Palestinian from the consequences of war. By ignoring the GC’s thru encouraging illegal settlement, the Israeli Government is purposefully placing Israeli citizens in danger and escalating the cost of occupation by then having to protect them.
The bottom line is, there is no valid reason or explanation or justification what so ever for the illegal acquisition of Palestinian territory outside the Internationally recognized sovereign extent of the State of Israel.
Israel’s first leaders decided to start with deceit by purposefully not mentioning borders in the Declaration for the Establishment of the State of Israel. Once you lie there are only two ways to go A) admit the deceit or; B) keep lying.
Truth needs no explanation. The statements by the Israeli Government of 1948/1949 on record in the UN/UNSC have not changed since they were made. The Hasbara moves from lie to lie. From one invalid point to another