Hamburg, Germany: May 2012
What a wrenching memorial. Writes a friend visiting Hamburg, "The house immediately next door to my hotel--now a kindergarten--had these brass 4" by 4" plaques embedded in the sidewalk--as a number of houses do in Hamburg." This couple was in their sixties. I see there are many such memorials in Germany.
A grim reminder…
Signs should be in Israel too.
On the sidewalk in Hamburg…
On the sidewalk in Jerusalem…
On the sidewalk in Najd…
On the sidewalk in Bersheeba…
On the sidewalk in Deir Yassin…
On the sidewalk in Lydda…
On the sidewalk in Ramla…
On the sidewalk in [insert village name here x 500]
“A grim reminder…”
I’m with you, Oleg! Every time I think of how millions of Jews were kidnapped from their villages in sunny Africa and sent to the New World as chattel slaves, every time I think of the destruction of culture and genocide of indigenous Jewish civilisation in South America (the Aztecowitz Empire, I think it was called), or think about the 100 million Jews destroyed between Russia Communism and in the aftermath of the Chinese Revolution, it just wrings hell out of my withers, and flabbers my ghast.
I see there are many such memorials in Germany.
And in Italy (“Qui abitava …”) and elsewhere in Europe: link to google.it
They are the work of German artist Gunter Demnig.
The artist is Gunter Demnig, Stolpersteine, stones to make you stumble, stumbling stones. He lived in my street for ages. He moved further out one or two years ago, I think.
I still remember when my friend, a painter, came back one evening from his local bar around the corner, saying: I think Gunter has a great idea. That’s when it all started. And of course it started in Cologne. In Munich the Council of German Jews caused a little trouble, they didn’t like the idea that “the victims figuratively would be stepped on again,” or something similar.
- “Council of German Jews … didn’t like the idea that “the victims figuratively would be stepped on again,” ”
Yes, I remember that. It was the then head of the council, Knobloch. She is dumb.
But the Yad Vashem poeple in Israel immdiately approved of it and thought it to be “a great idea”. – They know that any rememberence of the dead Jews of Germany can be turned into moral, political, and military support for Israel.
“They know that any rememberence of the dead Jews of Germany can be turned into moral, political, and military support for Israel.”
Which is a really tragic thing about this. It is a shame is that the two separate issues are so badly intertwined. The memorial to this crime should not be abused by the israelis.
They were described to me as “stumbling stones”.
This memorial in Budapest is even more powerful.
link to en.wikipedia.org
“Hier wohnte…” = “Here lived…”
Apparently such commemorative plaques on buildings (“. . . lived here”) are called “blue plaques” in Britain.
RE: “What a wrenching memorial. Writes a friend visiting Hamburg, ‘The house immediately next door to my hotel–now a kindergarten–had these brass 4″ by 4″ plaques embedded in the sidewalk–as a number of houses do in Hamburg.’” ~ Weiss
FROM WIKIPEDIA [Theresienstadt concentration camp]:
SOURCE – link to en.wikipedia.org
P.S. PARTS OF THE PROPAGANDA FILM
• Terezin Propaganda Film (VIDEO, 01:08) – link to youtube.com
• The Gift Of The Town – Terezin/Theresienstadt (VIDEO, 09:48) – link to youtube.com
• The Fuhrer gives the Jews a city (VIDEO, 15:37)
The infamous Nazi propaganda film showing the public how “well” the Jews were treated in Thereisenstadt.
LINK – link to video.google.com
Will there be stones like this for the Palestines?
Or maybe at least a stone for the donkey of the Palestine boy whose neck was broken right in front of him by Israeli settlers?
In Ed Rendell-think, if there are too many criminals involved in committing a crime, you can’t prosecute any of them.
but maybe Gunter could scare up 69 more “this is where they live” plaques, one for each of Rendell’s partners in supporting MEK, a group that’s on the US terror watch list — link to campaigniran.org
(I tossed in an extra plaque for the guy who headed NUMEC when it ‘lost’ uranium that mysteriously found its way to Israel. he’s living fat & happy & on the board of Hillel.)
I guess Rendell and the others aren’t going to be prosecuted now. MEK to Be Delisted as Terrorists in Reward for Engaging in Terrorism.
By the way, that NUMEC guy, Zalman Shapiro, I don’t know why everybody assumes the statute of limitations has run on his crimes. For federal crimes that are subject to the death penalty, there is no statute of limitations, and, if I understand Grant Smith’s book Divert! correctly, those crimes of which Shapiro is accused that were committed before some date in 1963 are potentially subject to the death penalty.
link to youtube.com
lots of memorials
Interesting plaque.
link to guardian.co.uk
The story behind it.
In front of my appartment building (Frankfurt, Wittelsbacher Allee 100) it says:
__________________
Hier wohnte /here lived
Gertrud Gross
geb./born Schickl
J.G./year born 1918
Flucht/flight 1937 Prag
Deportiert 1942
TOT/dead
__________________
This is a reminder that Jews who emigrated to a country that was later on occupied by Germany were deported also. Obviously it’s not known where she went and died.
The term “Flucht/flight 1937 ” is wrong. It implies that the Nazis wanted to get hold of the Jews in 1937 and put them in camps. Quite to the contrary, the Nazis promoted/forced their emigration – that was the whole point of making their lives miserable by forcing them out of professional organizations etc.
Before this brass plaque was put on the sidewalk in front of my house, a lady rang my bell and handed me a flyer with some information on the initiative and Gertrud Gross.
I asked her: “What do you think, would Gertrud have supported Israel today?”
/ Quite to the contrary, the Nazis promoted/forced their emigration/
Unfortunately there were nowhere to run even for those that saw the oncoming storm…
Unfortunately there were nowhere to run even for those that saw the oncoming storm…
Over two thirds of Germany’s Jews were able to flee Germany for other countries prior to 1939. Over 400,000 of the 600,000 German Jews had escaped, with only ten percent of those (40,000) going to Palestine.
Oleg – Many Holocaust survivors have learned compassion for those who are oppressed today. Does your appreciation for the predicament of German Jews in the 30s give you a sense of what a Palestinian must feel, harassed, barred entry to their homeland and hampered in international travel? What is the moral lesson you draw from the Holocaust?
/What is the moral lesson you draw from the Holocaust?/
I draw a few moral lessons.
We the Jews need to be able to protect our selves, nobody else will…
The world is largely indifferent to human suffering.
Human beings can be incredibly cruel to each other and incredibly ingenious
in finding ways to be cruel to each other.
There is no God.
Never again.
What is yours?
Funny, I initially read that as “I draw few moral lessons.”
Having read the rest of your comment I think my [mis]reading is accurate after all.
Either “never again” is applied universally or it not – and if it is not, then it can be and is used to rationalise atrocities, in this case by Israelis against Palestinians.
Universal application of principles is a good ideal.
But i am not an idealist.
My loyalties lie with my /family/friends/tribe/compatriots/ first and the rest of humanity second.
It’s not a zero sum game for me either but in case of a conflict of interest a matter of proportion.
“The world is largely indifferent to human suffering.”
for Christ’s sake, there is a holocaust museum in Japan.
White Light Black Rain; The Destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
———-
Monument to human suffering in Iraq
————
Somewhere between 30,000 and 60,000 innocent civilians were firebombed to death in Dresden. Churchill ordered the triple raid to enhance his standing in the eyes of Uncle Joe Stalin, with whom he was meeting in Yalta. Not even the numbers of humans who suffered and died are known; the monument to human suffering of unknown tens of thousands of citizens of Dresden consists of “inscriptions chalked on walls” — long ago erased :
——
Oh the world is very good at building memorials after the fact
but in real time…
You can’t have it both ways Oleg.
If you say “My loyalties lie with my /family/friends/tribe/compatriots/ first” then the second half of your statement is entirely redundant.
You can’t claim to have any loyalty to the “rest of humanity” when your tribe is continuously attacking them in order to steal land and property, and has been since 1948.
Sure i can it’s a matter of proportion.
Black and White zero sum games are relatively rear thankfully
so i don’t have to constantly choose.
“I draw a few moral lessons.
We the Jews need to be able to protect our selves, nobody else will…
The world is largely indifferent to human suffering.
Human beings can be incredibly cruel to each other and incredibly ingenious
in finding ways to be cruel to each other.
There is no God.
Never again.
What is yours?”……..Oleg
Well that is stupid. You weren’t in the holocaust or anywhere near it and yet you use it as an excuse for your naturally selfish character.
Every time I see a pretender like you as opposed to some of the real survivors who are speaking out against the Palestine’s Never Again it just reminds me it is all in the individual….if you couldn’t claim the holocaust for your attitude you would find some other excuse for it.
“But i am not an idealist.
My loyalties lie with my /family/friends/tribe/compatriots/ first and the rest of humanity second.”
So then you completely understand why states looked after their own at the expense of the Jews and you hold no grudges, right? After all, they were just looking out for thier family/friends/tribe/compatriots (I think the word you’re looking for is “Blut” or “Volk“.)
Oleg –
I don’t agree that belief in God/atheism is a moral lesson in and of itself. And your description of the human cruelty we see in the news every day is also not a moral lesson.
We the Jews need to be able to protect our selves, nobody else will…
The reason I am alive today is thanks to the kindness and dedication of a group of Jews and non-Jews. My mother would have died in the Holocaust of not for the principled stand and great effort that these people took.
So, the first lesson I learn is that, when others are silent around you, try to notice what’s going on and take a stand on behalf of the victims.
What is the moral content of “never again.”? What is in my control that I would have done differently if I were targeted the way my grandparents were? I don’t know what my family could have done differently, from a moral or a practical standpoint, to have escaped the Holocaust. I think there is nothing more they could, or should, have done.
If you want to focus on “never again”, I would direct that at the American and, yes, Jewish bystanders who could have done more to save Jews. Today, in the case of the Palestinians, we are the bystanders and there is plenty we can do. Israel claims it is acting in the name of all Jews, dead and alive. It persecutes the Palestinians and threatens the Iranians in my name. So, I have the moral responsibility – and opportunity – to counter that.
Typical zionist short term thinking.
The attitude you have – coupled with Israel’s actual behaviour – is one of the reasons Israel is doomed in the medium to long term.
And you know what? Because Israel’s behaviour is so repulsive, most people will be glad to see the end of it. It didn’t have to be this way, but zionist greed for Palestinian land created the Nakba and 45 years of brutal military occupation following 1967. Now the settlers are in place in such large quantities the occupation will never end by withdrawal. Right-wing ziobots are calling for a single state and they will get their wish – only the world will never accept such an apartheid state.
It’s a perfect storm.
/Oleg –
I don’t agree that belief in God/atheism is a moral lesson in and of itself./
It’s an interesting point.I would say that it is maybe not a moral lesson in itself
but it is certainly a lesson/conclusion .
The argument is well known a God that allowed Auschwitz is either impotent
or immoral…
/The reason I am alive today is thanks to the kindness and dedication of a group of Jews and non-Jews. My mother would have died in the Holocaust of not for the principled stand and great effort that these people took./
As individuals sure some Jews were saved, but consider how many weren’t.
This lesson is valid for the Jewish collective (ie the need for an independent state) it could be completely invalid for individuals.
/What is the moral content of “never again.”? What is in my control that I would have done differently if I were targeted the way my grandparents were? I don’t know what my family could have done differently, from a moral or a practical standpoint, to have escaped the Holocaust. I think there is nothing more they could, or should, have done./
This is exactly my point as individuals the words “never again” have almost
no meaning since the individual has little to no power.
Only a powerful collective (ie and independent state) can hope to achieve
such a goal.
/ So, I have the moral responsibility – and opportunity – to counter that./
I never questioned the morality of such a stand.
I do question the means to achieve that morality and the goals of
some people on this site which i view as being far from moral.
“The argument is well known a God that allowed Auschwitz is either impotent or immoral…”
Or the Jews’ idea of God is wrong.
“I do question the means to achieve that morality and the goals of some people on this site which i view as being far from moral.”
Since you appear to hold that it is okay to oppress another people to achieve the “powerful collective,” exactly how many Jews is another people permitted to oppress, if they believe they need to in order to form their own “powerful collective”? 100? 1,000? 6,000,000?
“I would direct that at the American and, yes, Jewish bystanders who could have done more to save Jews.”
Besides fighting a war to destroy the entity attacking the Jews, what more could the Americans have done?
After kristalnacht in November, 1938, The US government could have taken in Jewish refugees as the British government did.
But I was talking of individuals. Citizens can lobby, spread awareness etc., the kind of work that people here do. On the other side of the spectrum, Hannah Arendt shows convincingly, how everybody has moral agency – including the Gestapo. Nazis could speed the murders up, as the did in Poland, or go slow, as the did in Denmark. And those resistant Nazis did not risk their lives or even livelihoods to do that.
“After kristalnacht in November, 1938, The US government could have taken in Jewish refugees as the British government did.”
The US took in 85,000 refugees between March ’38 and September ’39.
Tribe?
Jews, the first known monotheists, ceased to be a tribe thousands of years ago as its form of monotheism spread the world, taking other forms such as Christianity — Jews who adopted universalism over tribalism.
“We the Jews need to be able to protect our selves, nobody else will…”
You got a sister, Oleg? I mean, we better get busy schtupping like crazy if we are going to beat the diminution in Jewish numbers. And, oh, BTW, Oleg, you got any solution to the marry-outs and the walk-aways?
You want to blame the rest of the world for the failure of Judaism, go ahead, it’s no skin off my rather capacious proboscis.
So go ahead and tell me, Oleg, how you plan to stop the walk-aways and the marry-outs? Many religions, denominations and sects have risen and disappeared in our hour upon the stage.
But yeah, you just go on telling yourself that the redemption of Judaism will come through the gun. Say, I know! Maybe if enough Jews aren’t being born and too many are walking away, we could use our military might to buy or kidnap children from other religions and make Jews out of them, and our political might to make the world stand for the process.
Tell me Klaus.
A personal question that is sensitive to many Germans.So i will understand if you don’t answer.
What were your grandfather’s doing during the war? (or great grandfathers in case the age does not fit)
What were your Grandfathers doing during the war Oleg? Fighting for Russia?
How about before then, were they Jewish Bolsheviks in Russia?
“What were your Grandfathers doing during the war Oleg? Fighting for Russia?”
Well, sort of. As political commissars they had the job of standing behind the Russian troops with pistols, ready to put a bullet into the back of any who faltered.
I think Americans eventually are going to face questions about what they or their ancestors were doing during the War on Terror.
Just as Israelis are going to face questions about what they or their ancestors were doing during the slow-motion ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
“I think Americans eventually are going to face questions about what they or their ancestors were doing during the War on Terror”…lysias
From the tripling of the suicide rate among soldiers who have served in Iraq I’d say we’re already having to deal with it….or at least their families are having to deal with it.
There was a very high suicide rate in the Whermacht, the German army around WW II. Often because it was the fastest way out of what was inevitable.
OlegR,
You tell me: What were your Father/Grandfathers/Great grandfathers doing in April and May 1940? How many of them were in the area of Katyn?
How many helped their state’s ally, Adolf Hitler, destroy Poland between September 1939-June 1941??
Off topic sleazy question. How many generations of guilt is it that your religion recommends for sins?
I can tell you Oleg. – I don’t know my grandfather, he died before I was born. But my father, born in 1900, joined the NSDAP/’Hitler movement’ before 1933 as a law student. He never told me, and I never asked. ( I was interested in Rock ‘n’ Roll not in the Nazis.) But my mother told me after his death. She said in a matter of factly way: “Dad was in the party when we married in 1933″. She herself had taught at a Jewish school (physical education, cooking, knitting).
During the war my father was in Italy, driving trucks (that’s the only thing I can remember he told me about the war).
In retrospect I think he had joined the Nazi party because he was anti-Communist. That was the primary motive of many NSDAP voters.
As far as the Jews are concerned, I remember he told me he worked as a young man at a Jewish bank, ‘Paderstein’ (before studying law) and always mentioned Paderstein approvingly. (He wanted me to work at a bank also.) – I remember one more thing. We had gotten a TV. (His sister from America was visiting and he thought: Now we need a TV.) –
Anyway, there was something on TV about German payments to Israel. We had guests and there was an argument about it. I remember my father saying: “We owe it to them”. That was about it. Jews or Israel were not mentioned – not that I remember.
Thank you Klaus.
I will return the courtesy and tell you about mine.
Both my grandfathers though in life only knew one (the other died when my mother was just a girl)
served in the Red Army.My Paternal grandfather Boris(Baruch)
was a cadre soldier when the was started he served in an artillery core
and his war path took him from the bitter retreats of 1941
the hunger of Leningrad blockade and then when the tide turned
back to the west, Königsberg Eastern Prussia where he met the victory.
My maternal grandfather Naftaly joined the Baltic navy when he was 16
(he faked his age) he survived the drowning of his ship and the Leningrad
blockade as well.
May i ask where do your interest in Israel stems from?
Ps. It’s very revealing how other people around here reacted to my question
tells a lot about them.
- “May i ask where do your interest in Israel stems from?”
It stems from meeting Israelis, yordim, in Frankfurt some 20 years ago.
Up to that point I had no particular interest in questions Jewish or Israeli. My attitude had been one of indifference or rather positive.
I visited Israel after meeting a publisher from Jerusalem at the Frankfurt Book Fair. She had told me I should come and see. So I did in December 2002. I can’t say that I had any unpleasent encounters with Israelis when I was there, quite to the contrary.
- But I have to tell you: the more I learned about the political and ideological background of Israel and her grounding in Judaism’s superiority concept – the more it turned me away and made me outright hostile. Additionally – and here comes the Nazi past into play – it makes me sick the way the dead German Jews are used to support Israeli policies.
But all this doesn’t translate into hostility toward the yordim. I know a lady who, like you, is a Russian Jew. She had emigrated to Israel but after the first gulf war came to Germany with her children. She told me it was because of Saddam’s missiles on Israel at the time.
_________
P-S. I didn’t take your question to mean I must be inherently murderous.
“My Paternal grandfather Boris(Baruch)
was a cadre soldier when the was started he served in an artillery core
and his war path took him from the bitter retreats of 1941
the hunger of Leningrad blockade and then when the tide turned
back to the west, Königsberg Eastern Prussia where he met the victory.”
Did you ever ask him if he participated in the mass rapes of German women that his army engaged in?
“It’s very revealing how other people around here reacted to my question
tells a lot about them.”
Come on, comrade, you still haven’t told us if any of your ancestors helped thier country’s buddy Hitler to carve up Poland or participated in the Katyn massacre. What does that reveal? You’re so interested in our German compatriot’s past, and we’re interested in yours.
Ok.
Last question and also sensitive.
Do you feel guilt over your father’s actions (Being a member of NSDAP)
or some sort of responsibility for that.As an individual not as a part of the German collective.
More to the point what i am asking is, if you are honest with yourself
do you think that the need to criticize Israel stems from some attempt to
free/cleanse yourself from the Nazi past or from a
completely independent solid moral ground
of an impartial bystander.
/P-S. I didn’t take your question to mean I must be inherently murderous./
Good.
“Do you feel guilt over your father’s actions (Being a member of NSDAP)
or some sort of responsibility for that.As an individual not as a part of the German collective.”
Oleg, do you feel guilt over your grandfathers’ actions (being a part of a Red Army which destroyed and occupied the nations of Eastern Europe for 50 years) or some sort of responsibility for that? As an infividual not as a part of the Soviet/Russian collective.
More to the point what i am asking is, if you are honest with yourself
do you think that the need to criticize Israel stems from some attempt to
free/cleanse yourself from the Nazi past or from a
completely independent solid moral ground
of an impartial bystander”….Oleg
Really.. you aren’t to get anywhere on the guilt thing. Ask me as an American if I feel guilt for the holocaust or that America has any guilt in it…my answer would be no to both. The people who did it are guilty. Klaus has no reason to feel individual ‘guilt’ or for his father, his father did what 99% of people do when their country gets into a war.
People can feel some ‘shame’ that one’s ‘country’ acted as it did… a lot of us feel shame or horror at some of the actions of our countries..but even then we know that those actions aren’t instituted by ALL the people of that country.
You know looking at your comments here is really looking into the core of zionism…..it’s fascinating because to outsiders it is so clear how it works. …the world hates you and you hate the world….but your hate is a good hate so it must be accepted. The world’s hate for you makes it responsible for you, but your hate doesn’t make you responsible for anything. So messed up.
Your question addresses something I wanted to say also but didn’t in order not to overburden you with my story. But since you ask.
[1.] – I got angry with my mother because of the matter of factly way she told me about it, more by chance, long after my father had died. “Aren’t you aware that Dad was indirectly part of the German crimes?” I told her.
“He wasn’t a Nazi” she replied, “he wanted to improve the world.”
I also got angry with my sister about the matter. – As far as my mother is concerned, her trauma was the flight from Danzig (we lived nearby) from the advancing Soviet army. My sister is just too unpolitical to comprehend.
I do not feel particularly bad about my father having been a member of the NSDAP. He joined it as a student, probably to fight Communism in the Weimar Republic. I like that better as if he had joined the party out of opportunism after Hitler took power. And after the war there was nothing, absolutely nothing that made me suspicious he was harboring Nazi views. That’s why I never asked. – No, I do not feel guilty for my father’s actions.
My mother was probably right, he wasn’t a Nazi, although of course he was.
[2.] – I always thought we can only cleanse ourselves from the Nazi crimes by being different from them.
“My mother was probably right, he wasn’t a Nazi, although of course he was.”
Although I understand your point, but I think a distinction morally must be drawn between those who were members of the party (Like Oskar Schindler, to pick out one, almost random, example) and those who believed in the goals and methods of the party. They are not coterminous.
Danzig,
that makes you sort of a refugee.
Just read recently about this organization der Vertriebenen B.d.V. Bund
link to en.wikipedia.org
are you familiar with it?
“Danzig,
that makes you sort of a refugee.”
Courtesy of your grandfather and his state. Do you feel responsible for that, Oleg??
You’ve yet to tell us if he was involved in Katyn or the mass rapes in Germany after the war. Or is that a family secret?
“My mother was probably right, he [my father] wasn’t a Nazi, …”
The way my mother used the word ‘Nazi’ was to mean a fanatical, racist, ideological, Jew-hating Hitler follower. The way the term is used today.
But in the Weimar Republic when my father joined the NSDAP, being a Nazi meant primarily being anti-Communist. The whole Nazi propaganda in the election campains was directed against the German Communists.
As the red army enjoyed their victory in Koenigsberg (now Kalinengrad) my grand-father-in Law was nailed to a tree. He had been a school teacher, was not a member of anything, nor in the army. My father in law suffered a similar fate, but survived. Once the Red Army learned they needed him ( a young surgeon). But the permanent damage was done.
He and my mother in law (who survived by random fate even after slitting her own throat) were the only survivors in their families of the Red Army victory celebrations.
Hosea 8:7
“For they sow the wind
And they reap the whirlwind.”
Oleg, are you speaking to yourself with all this reaping a whirlwind blather?
I am speaking to you actually Ellen
i have very little sympathy to German civilian casualties in WW2
And yes i am quite aware that the same phrase can be applied to Israel.
“For they sow the wind
And they reap the whirlwind.”
So why all the fuss about rockets and innocent civilians and terrorism? Or are you suggesting that Israel has never sown any wind (entirely justified perhaps, to your mind, but wind nonetheless)?
And some Hosea (10:13) right back at you:
“Ye have plowed wickedness, ye have reaped iniquity, ye have eaten the fruit of lies; for thou didst trust in thy way, in the multitude of thy mighty men.”
The fuss is simple Shmuel
those rockets are fired at my people my family and my friends.
And i want them stopped.
Also i believe that our side is the right side in the conflict and yours is the wrong side (not in Black and White terms but in the total sum of things)
Nazi Germany and it’s civilian population fairly earned all the calamities that befell upon them and much more in my opinion.
Whatever Allied forces
did pales in comparison to what the Wehrmacht did in the occupied Soviet territories and what it did in the rest of Europe.And i am not talking about
the Holocaust now.
The fuss is simple Shmuel
It’s obvious why these things bother you, Oleg. The question is why make a fuss about it here or anywhere else, if it’s all subjective anyway? What have you got to say to someone whose family is not involved (or is involved on the other side), or believes that your side is the wrong side (in the total sum of things)? Nothing, really.
BTW, your reaction to Ellen’s personal story was remarkably callous, but that’s obviously the spirit in which it was intended. You need to read more Hosea (and maybe a little Isaiah as well).
>> those rockets are fired at my people my family and my friends.
>> And i want them stopped.
You want them stopped, but you and your people are not willing to halt your country’s 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.
And you and your people are not willing to give up everything you have stolen outside of Partition borders.
And you and your people are not willing to work toward an equitable settlement for all you have stolen (by means of terrorism and ethnic cleansing) within Partition borders.
It’s a tough gig being an aggressor-victim. :-(
With a primitive tribal self understanding and that of the world, I cannot imagine you COULD have sympathy for any “other” group, really. After all, they are the “other.” Not quite human, certainty not deserving of feeling.
And heck being a narcissist the entire world population (other than your tribe, that is) is against you. (“Everyone hates me whaaaaaa!”)
By transcending our “tribes” we achieve humanity.
Israel? Don’t think the narcissistic biblical passage of revenge could be applied to an abstract of a State and it’s citizens. You say that, but it fits that you would based on your postings here and expressed world understanding.
If you really believe in whirlwinds of revenge, I guess one could say it applies to Zionism.
But unlike you, I– and I believe most people — have deep sympathy for all human suffering, no matter the sins of their deranged leaders, their fathers or mothers. No matter.
BTW, the Ratko Mladic trials are on today. His world view is just like yours! You might dig watching him during the proceedings.
In his mind all those thousands and thousands of Muslim men and boys needed to be murdered because of perceived or real whatever by someone or some group back in the day.
And the many hundred of children needed to be snipped out on their way to school.
You know, they grow up and might be dangerous. Nip it in the bud.
So Ratko is just your kind of guy.
/The question is why make a fuss about it here or anywhere else, if it’s all subjective anyway?/
I personally don’t make a fuss about it.
I only mention it when the Gaza story is reported one sided and needs
to be put in the proper context.
/BTW, your reaction to Ellen’s personal story was remarkably callous/
My human empathy Shmuel do not extend to Nazi Germany and it’s population, only to it’s victims.Some Germans, Gunther Grass for example if memory serves me right
try to argue that the German civilian population was also a victim of the Nazi regime.I consider it to be an apologetic Bullshit.
You want to forgive and forget that’s your right.
/In his mind all those thousands and thousands of Muslim men and boys needed to be murdered because of perceived or real whatever by someone or some group back in the day./
Nope sorry this is Palestinian terrorists usual rhetoric and justification
for killing Jewish children.
It never was and never will be Israels.
Shmuel, Oleg’s comments were not callous. That would indicate no emotion. His comments were meant to hurt, to cut deep.
He is a man who has been raised to hate others, no matter what.
He revealed to us that in his mind I am nothing more than filth:
I am not a Zionist, and even worse, I married into a family that he believes deserved torture and death and more because of where and under what government they lived.
>> try to argue that the German civilian population was also a victim of the Nazi regime.I consider it to be an apologetic Bullshit.
Spoken like a true master of apologetic bullshit, who defends the Israeli population as also a victim of the Jewish State regime.
You want to forgive and forget that’s your right.
Innocent people require no forgiveness; their murderers and oppressors do, and I’m far more interested in justice than forgiveness.
As long as we’re quoting Scripture, how about Deuteronomy 24:16:
לֹא-יוּמְתוּ אָבוֹת עַל-בָּנִים, וּבָנִים לֹא-יוּמְתוּ עַל-אָבוֹת: אִישׁ בְּחֶטְאוֹ, יוּמָתוּ
“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
Oleg, what do you think of the hundreds of young German boy hanging from trees in city parks in view of the public because they deserted the Army?
After all, they were Germans, so deserved to be hung if even by their own government? Right?
Good luck in life of a blind man who cannot see a person. You will need it living with fears and hates.
Oleg, well you went there.
Israel actively supplied weapons to Ratko Mladic at that time and then weaseled out of it saying they did not know they landed there. Serbia and Israel are still buddy buddy in the arms business.
As for the deflection on Palestinian “terrorist usual rhetoric…” Never heard it before and if we had, that would not make it wrong.
You are deflecting because the shoe fits! Like I said you and Ratko could be really great buddies.
Unfortunately the allies did not have the benefits of smart bombs
to differentiate between fathers and sons.
I have no opinion of you Ellen nor your wife.(Unless she was of age during the war)
My comment regarded only her ancestors.
Everything else is your own speculation .
I think of the millions of Soviets who were hanged shot burned and bombed by the fathers and brothers of those German boys.
Of the children and women that starved to death in Leningrad ,
burned alive in Khatin and countless others White Russian villages.
I think of Auzshwitz and Maidanek an Bergen Belzen and Dachau and Terezienschdadt.
I think of all those soviet soldiers who were starved to death in the
German pow camps.
And that’s just from the top of my head.
There were no innocent Germans in the Nazi Germany.Not enough anyway to speak off.
Every one of them who did not actively resisted (bore arms)
but stayed and worked have made a contribution to the Nazi war machine.
There is truth to that sentence but there is truth in
this one.
‘אבות אכלו בוסר ושיני בנים תקהינה’ ירמיהו לא פס 29
‘The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children’s teeth are set on edge’
It was said in the hope that the future will bring change
but it didn’t yet and it won’t in the foreseeable future
Unfortunately the allies did not have the benefits of smart bombs
to differentiate between fathers and sons.
You don’t nail people to trees with bombs.
See how zionism damages people?
Oleg tells us on this thread that the world is indifferent to human suffering but he is the only one claiming killing civilians is OK – even an acceptable form of justice – because of some biblical quote.
There’s always someone somewhere to justify anything. Hey wasn’t it the jews that cause Germany to lose WW1?
Et voila, problem solved. Right?
Poor Oleg thinks the world is so awful but can’t join the dots and see how he projects his world view onto everybody else.
- “Every one of them who did not actively resisted (bore arms) … made a contribution to the Nazi war machine.”
——–
Okay, in this sense I feel bad (not guilty) for my father’s part in the crazy and criminal Nazi-German war enterprise to conquer, destroy and dominate other countries. And the Russians had to suffer worse than others.
When I was in Estonia several years ago a lady who had emigrated to Canada but was visiting asked me: “Are the Germans aware and feel guilty about what they did to other peoples? ” I said “it’s mainly the Jews”.
She got angry and said: “It’s NOT only the Jews!”
You’re getting touchy now. Must have hit a nerve.
How about the hundreds of thousands who died in Concentration camps resisting? How about the Nuns on the Rhein who went to their deaths escorting the handicapped to their work camps? How about the Priests in Dachau?
Don’t you get it? There is horrible crime everywhere and against all at some time. It is the dark human condition with roots in revenge.
Something you find justified, can related to — you and the Ratko’s of the world. His words and language is eerily similar to yours.
“I have no opinion of you Ellen nor your wife.” Yes, you obviously do.
Ergo your statements.
I am a she. And it was my mother-in-law who suffered at the hands of the Red Army. Surviving the rapes (where most women and girls did not) only because she slit her own throat. But they found they needed her alive for other reasons.
Perhaps your father was one of the rapists enjoying his Red Army victory and revenge on the grandmother of my children.
But sometimes you do nail them to trees if they represent the enemy that ruined your country an murdered millions of your compatriots.
You can’t understand that kind of rage Shmuel i can’t understand it
not entirely but i can’t and won’t judge it or pity it’s victims.
Not when we are talking about Nazi Germany.
I have no human empathy towards it’s population like i already stated.
I should add that the Germans, in particular the Nazis, looked down upon the Russians and behaved worse than for instance in occupied northern France. In the war against Soviet Russia, Hitler had lumped the Soviets and the Jews together. I remember an elderly man on German TV who had taken part in that war saying: “Soviets, Communists and Jews were the same thing for us.”
Reading back I come across Klaus’ simple smart statement about how he has as a German digested what occurred in Germany 3/4 of a century ago:
I always thought we can only cleanse ourselves from the Nazi crimes by being different from them.
Whereas Oleg the Israeli jew of European descent tells us that he has no sympathy for German civilians in WW2 and that they deserved what they got and more. Also the world is a horrid place and no-one cares about human suffering.
Compare and contrast.
Oleg, if you don’t like what happened during the holocaust, why, Why, WHY adopt the mentality of the perpetrators?
She was right.
The horror of the Holocaust is the deliberate industrialization of mass
murder that makes it unique in my eyes and being a Jew i first of all
relate to Jewish suffering.
But i also know history and i know what the citizens of the Soviet Union went
through and how much they paid to break the neck of the Wehrmacht.
I also know what “policies” were implemented toward them.Their blood
cries from the land no less then the blood of my relatives.
But it is less heard in the Western World.
Nazi Germany Sumud Nazi Germany.
A unique kind of evil.
Like I said Oleg, it’s you and the Ratko Mladics of the world. All that is needed is someone to just REPRESENT crimes is enough to torture them.
That an individual can represent it in your mind, just be a symbol of it, is enough for torture, rape and murder.
You are doing a great job Hasbaring for Israel, but they might have to re-program you. How much do they pay your for this?
You can’t understand that kind of rage Shmuel i can’t understand it
not entirely but i can’t and won’t judge it or pity it’s victims.
Not when we are talking about Nazi Germany.
I have no human empathy towards it’s population like i already stated.
Some atrocities committed by Allied troops (and partisans) were certainly committed out of rage, but that’s just one explanation/justification – ranging from a sense of lawlessness, the expectations of comrades, naked sadism, fear, the feel of power, following orders, etc.
You say that you can’t and won’t judge, but you have. You excuse the actions of the perpetrators on your side, because they were enraged at the atrocities committed by the other side. You have decided that they are beyond judgement, which is, in itself, a judgement. You have also judged the victims as inherently guilty if not individually (problematic in itself) then collectively, and unworthy of empathy.
Unlike you, I can understand that kind of rage (or fear or weakness), but I won’t justify the actions. I think the world owes the Soviets a great (and largely unacknowledged) debt for their decisive role in defeating Nazi Germany, and find the heroism they displayed inspiring. That doesn’t mean we have to excuse the war crimes they committed in the process, or deny their innocent victims the empathy they deserve.
>> Nazi Germany Sumud Nazi Germany.
>> A unique kind of evil.
The Jewish State, OlegR, the Jewish State.
A unique Jewish kind of evil.
What the Russians did to Königsberg was appalling.
link to welt.de den Spuren Kants durch Königsberg
Most people even in Germany are unaware of what happened
And herein Oleg proves my maxim that, eventually, rightwing Zionists will eventually justify the Holocaust:
“But sometimes you do nail them to trees if they represent the enemy that ruined your country an murdered millions of your compatriots.”
Because, you know, sometimes if 6 million Jews represents the enemy that ruined your country in WWI with the stab in the back, you have to just kill them. (Nail them to a tree, throw them in a an oven, what’s the difference?)
Way to go, dumbass.
I’ll have to remember this quote the next time some zio complains about so-called Israeli “civilians” being killed…
There were no innocent Israelis in israel. Not enough anyway to speak off.
Every one of them who does not actively resisted (bore arms)
but stayed and worked have made a contribution to the israeli war machine.
There were no innocent Germans in the Nazi Germany.Not enough anyway to speak off. Every one of them who did not actively resisted (bore arms) but stayed and worked have made a contribution to the Nazi war machine.
so in your view the german jews who suffered silently and acquiesced to the rise of the nazi party werent ‘innocent’ either and ultimately got what they deserved as well? the same for the jews who remained in germany after the outbreak of the war and didn’t bear arms against the nazis? and those german or polish jews who had the foresight and financial means to emigrate, leaving behind others who couldn’t, they’re guilty as well? (i’ve heard/read the opinion of jewish religious leaders describing the holocaust as a justified punishment by god for ‘the jews’ straying from the path. this, and olerg’s variation, seem to be a symptom of the true self-hatred.)
olerg despite my smart ass attitude i truly to try to find the best in people, but you are challenging me. i can’t find a peppercorn of humanity left in you.
“A unique kind of evil”
No , not really. People been doing that to the other since time began…still doing that to other people.
/Unlike you, I can understand that kind of rage (or fear or weakness), but I won’t justify the actions./
I don’t believe you Shmuel.
How can you understand it?
Have you had the “benefit” of being a Red Army soldier in WW2 ?
No you haven’t.
These are just words and they make you feel ahh so noble and just
but they are empty and hollow.
The things that they committed out of their rage and the madness of war are not for you to judge or excuse or forgive or condemn or to say anything at all.
As for their victims my empathy is first and foremost for the
victims of Nazi Germany, millions of them.
By the time that i reach German civilians my empathy is spent ,
i have non left to give.
- “Nazi Germany … I have no human empathy towards it’s population.”
Okay Oleg, but do you have empathy toward the Russian victims of Stalin’s terror? His murder maschine against his own population started well before Hitler’s. In the 1930s Stalin gave the order to execute some 100,000 “anti-Soviet elemets”. (Hitler’s victims in that period were some 1,000 “enemies of the state”.)
I don’t believe you Shmuel.
How can you understand it?
Unlike you, I don’t have a limited supply of empathy.
The things that they committed out of their rage and the madness of war are not for you to judge or excuse or forgive or condemn or to say anything at all.
This statement is entirely in keeping with the kind of moral relativism (nihilism?) you often express here.
By the time that i reach German civilians my empathy is spent ,
i have non left to give.
Talk about self-righteousness. You can unflare your nostrils now.
OlgaR:
How about Uncle Joe alias Stalin victims ? Millions of them ? None left ?
Riiiight. Thats the spirit.
Sure, i have no illusions regarding the Stalinist regime.
To explain my attitude i would have to quote Churchill
“If Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least make a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons”
/Unlike you, I don’t have a limited supply of empathy./
I hope you will never have to put this sentence to a test.
Klaus, Oleg has had a life of brainwashing. it is all about him and “his people” whatever that is.
Russians I know comment in that slightly sardonic way that the Russians murdered their own 25 million or more in a systematic and industrialized manner. With that measurement (if a crime can be measure?) the crimes against their own vastly surpass any in modern history.
Whip people up in a frenzy of fear and hate and tribal sense of self for a cause, and you can get them to do anything. And the Oleg’s of the world are fine with it.
If you have been to Königsberg, you know that the Russians are trying to revive what was destroyed of a German past and culture. Russians of today (and even then) know what was done was a terrible crime.
But the Olegs of the world, who has a culture of “us and them” and blut und boden thinks the destruction of a people was right due to the crimes of its leaders and a collective insanity of too many. (Look at the USA right now.)
With his logic, should all peoples be destroyed? (Shows how crazy he and much of the weird logic of Zionism is.)
Oleg –
We have to remember that Hitler came to power – among other reasons – because he invoked the specter of the Bolshevik barbarians taking over Germany. And there was some factual basis to this election campain propaganda. – You shouldn’t prove Hitler right by condoning the Red Army’s barbarian acts.
It is irrelevant Klaus.
Just as Versailles treaty grave injustice towards Germany is irrelevant.
All these claims were made irrelevant by Nazi Germany actions
from the 1 of September 1939 and until the 9′s of May 1945
“We have to remember that Hitler came to power – among other reasons – because he invoked the specter of the Bolshevik barbarians taking over Germany. And there was some factual basis to this ” …. Klaus
That’s true and hardly anyone ever mentions this. Or the fact that other world leaders in Europe were also looking at the Bolsheviks in Russia as a threat. BBC has some good historical background on how the Bolsheviks influenced Hitler and how he was convinced that Jews were responsible for it in Russia and might do the same in Germany. But then Churchill also blamed the Russian Jews primilary for Bolshevikism. Some of what I have read suggest that one reason Hitler wasn’t rejected early in the game by other world governments was because he was seen by some as a ally against Bolshevism and communism.
But sometimes you do nail them to trees if they represent the enemy that ruined your country an murdered millions of your compatriots.
I just saw your commenter profile, Oleg. Do you really consider yourself a “Humanist”? In what sense? I don’t think I’ve ever met a humanist who views individual human beings merely as “representations” of a collective, or holds such a dim and compartmentalised view of humanity.
Good luck with that argument. I keep trying to convince the Zionists of the world that the Holocaust is “irrelevant” because of the Israeli’s actions from 1947 – today, but they keep throwing stupid things like logic, humanity, reason and ethics in the way…
“Do you really consider yourself a ‘Humanist’? In what sense?”
He was born in a one-party state which asserted that it was democratic. You can take the boy out of the USSR, but you can’t take the USSR out of the boy.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Stalin killed a lot more than 100,000 in the 1930′s. His imposed famine on the Ukraine in 1932-33 (Holodomor) killed between 2.4 and 7.5 million people. Add in the people killed in the purges and the people killed in the liquidation of the kulaks as a class, and you’re adding another couple of million, at least.
??
I asked you a serious question Oleg. Are you going to answer sensibly?
Nazi Germany Sumud Nazi Germany.
??
I asked you a serious question Oleg. Are you going to answer sensibly?
what do want, sumud? a man can only give so much. he said nazi germany twice, and i understand that that he was scratching his chin pensively as he said it.
I am glad Oleg comments here…..he is the real face of zionism….everyone needs to see it.
Although he is so repusive I have wondered if he’s a anti zionist agent of the opposition to make Israel look even worse…..if so, he is doing a great job.
Oleg:
Exactly as there are no innocent Israelian Jews in “Israel”.
Not enough to speak of, anyway, and certainly way fewer than there were decent Germans in Nazi Germany.
Every one of the Master Race Israelians who did not actively resist continues to make a contribution to the Israelian Master Race’s crimes against humanity, and you are one of them.
I don’t see what exactly makes you so different than the ones you are attacking.
Come to think of it Oleg, you must have served in the IDF, do you still?
american, his commenter profile says he participated in ‘cast lead’.
Well I’m gonna stop banging my head on the Oleg zio wall.
Not worth it.
Its’ like the saying about wrestling with pigs, all that happens is the pigs love it and all you get out of it is a wallow in the mud.
Jesus Christ . Anyone who served in Cast lead is a sociopath.
Tell me Klaus.
. . .
What were your grandfather’s doing during the war?
that’s real subtle, olerg. yes, we know, all germans are murderers and nazis. it’s in their blood.
since you’re on a quest in search of personal histories why don’t you tell us what your дедов (or great grandfathers in case the age does not fit) did to stop stalin from murdering his millions?
OlegR: “(or great grandfathers in case the age does not fit)”
Tell me Oleg, for how many more generations do you think this pathetic guilt-tripping of Germans is going to work?
You should worry instead about what your generation of Israelis are doing to the Palestinians (as a Russian immigrant, I’ll let your forebearers off). And as we keep getting reminded, Israel is a democracy not a dictatorship. A democracy that keeps on voting to continue the oppression, land grabbing and ethnic cleansing.
Compared to modern Germany, Israelis should hang their heads in shame (if they had any). But to beg the comparison shows what a fool you are, Oleg.
OlegR:
Fighting in front agains your grandfathers. Who made pact with nazi germany and attacked to my country. Thanks for asking.
Fighting in front agains your grandfathers. Who made pact with nazi germany and attacked to my country. Thanks for asking.
my maternal uncles were on the soviet side of german-soviet poland. they ‘volunteered’ to serve in the red army, as in, ‘you can volunteer, or we can shoot you.’
“The term “Flucht/flight 1937 ” is wrong. It implies that the Nazis wanted to get hold of the Jews in 1937 and put them in camps. Quite to the contrary, the Nazis promoted/forced their emigration – that was the whole point of making their lives miserable by forcing them out of professional organizations etc. ”
Yes, that was clearly their original intention. There is a site, calvin.ed, that has the text of the speeches the Hitler adm officials and the nazis made concerning the Jews….they spent a lot of time discussing what to do with the Jews, their plan originally was indeed setting them up in some separate country. One of the plans or options was putting them in a territory just outside Germany and turning them into some kind of rural self sustaining “commune” where they would learn to farm and support themselves. The speeches and papers are sort of eerily fascinating like a horror movie where the viewer can see the killer coming but the victim character in the movie can’t. You can plainly see the nazi attitudes towards the Jews turn harsher and harsher as time went on. ..they went from denouncing Jews in the beginning as mostly undesirables and as’ impurities’ (non Aryans) in Germany to calling them ”enemies of the state” ..when the enemies of the state meme took hold that became their justification for the camps and killings.
So on another thread Oleg hit the roof because I compared the Gaza Ghetto to the Warsaw Ghetto but it remains a valid comparison and Israel is currently where nazi German was in the pre-war ‘pre-exterminist’ years – and heading along the same path.
Palestinians are identified as enemies of the Israeli state. The hot rounds of ethnic cleansing occurred in 1948 and 1967 – mass looting and theft of Palestinian property and material goods. The borders are sealed up. Gaza civilians are enduring a cruel siege and simultaneous attack by the IDF with battlefield weapons, killing thousands since Israel “withdrew” in the mid-2000s. Settlers attacking Palestinians with tacit approval of the IDF. The Palestinian economy deliberately strangled. Regular reports of rallies on the streets of Israeli cities with the youth shouting ”death to arabs”. Politicians like Lieberman talking about drowning Palestinians in the Dead Sea… and it goes on, always slowly getting worse and worse, more extreme.
Wiki / Genocide / Stages of genocide, influences leading to genocide, and efforts to prevent it.
So on another thread Oleg hit the roof because I compared the Gaza Ghetto to the Warsaw Ghetto but it remains a valid comparison and Israel is currently where nazi German was in the pre-war ‘pre-exterminist’ years – and heading along the same path”…Sumud
I don’t think we can deny the similarities in the “mentality” of the nazis and the zionist. I believe the uber zios would absolutely like to wipe out the Palestines completely and the only thing stopping them is they haven’t yet found a way or the conditions under which they could to that in one fell swoop and have the world accept it. So they do it a little bit at a time under the security excuse.
-”I compared the Gaza Ghetto to the Warsaw Ghetto but it remains a valid comparison and Israel is currently where nazi Germany was in the pre-war ‘pre-exterminist’ years.” – Sumud
—————————-
Yes, the Warsaw Ghetto can be compared to Palestinien ghettos.
But there was no such thing in pre-war Germany. The Warsaw Ghetto was in occupied Poland.
- Also: Right after the occupation in September 1939, Polish Jews had to wear the Judenstern/Star of David. For German Jews it was mandatory from September 1, 1941. By that time, roughly 200,000 Jews had remained in Germany out of some 500,000.
Occupied Poland and her Jews, not pre-war Germany, can be compared to occupied Palestine today.
/Over 100,000 of the Ghetto’s residents died due to rampant disease or starvation, as well as random killings, even before the Nazis began massive deportations of the inhabitants from the Ghetto’s Umschlagplatz to the Treblinka extermination camp during the Grossaktion Warschau, part of the countrywide Operation Reinhard. Between Tisha B’Av (July 23) and Yom Kippur (September 21) of 1942, about 254,000 Ghetto residents (or at least 300,000 by different accounts)[5] were sent to Treblinka and murdered there.[1]
Now lets check Gaza:
link to indexmundi.com
Country 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011
Gaza Strip 3.97 4.01 3.95 3.89 3.83 3.77 3.71 3.66 3.42 3.35 3.29 3.2
Population growth since 2000.
“Now lets check Gaza:”
Wow, Oleg, your Judeo-fascist apartheid state is not quite as bad as Nazi Germany. You must be very proud.
There is a moving diary by a Polish Jew who worked as a Ghetto policeman in 1943 after the deportations had begun. He says this:
“People fled to Nowy Dwor, the nearest town on the territory of the Third Reich. There was the conviction that in Germany herself Jews were not killed.” – I don’t quote this to exonerate Germany, just to point to the difference of what happened in occupied Poland and in Germany proper.
Of course Oleg, there is a substantial difference in kind and intent between the German occupation of Poland and the treatment of the Polish Jews and Israel’s occupation of Palestine. But in the early years it looked similar.
Well Klaus we don’t remember the Holocaust for the early years
now do we?
>> Well Klaus we don’t remember the Holocaust for the early years
now do we?
You’re right, we don’t. We remember it primarily as:
- “The Bestest Genocide Ever!” (TM); and
- the alternate (to the Biblical) justification for Jewish terrorism, for the Jewish and Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes and land, and for the establishment of a supremacist Jewish state in Palestine.
“Well Klaus we don’t remember the Holocaust for the early years
now do we?”
No, you remember the Holocaust for everything:
Israelis steal someone else’s land? “Remember the Holocaust!”
Israel murders a Palestinian child? “Remember the Holocaust!”
Israel liquidates a Palestinian villiage? “Remember the Holocaust!”
Israel strips rights from Palestinian citizens of Israel: “Remeber the Holocaust!”
Israel coddles Nakba deniers? “Remeber the Holocaust!”
Israel threatens war on Iran? “Remember the Holocaust!”
etc.
Must be real nice to have such a convenient excuse at hand…
“OlegR says:
May 15, 2012 at 10:44 am
+ Show content
Well Klaus we don’t remember the Holocaust for the early years
now do we?”
Yeah we do remember the early years. The early discrimination and persecution are the red flags for what those mentalities can end in.
If we had had the international laws WWII inspired and the humanitarian laws before instead of after it’s possible the world might have intervened sooner on Hitler based on those laws.
But those laws are now what Israel spits on.
Well Klaus we don’t remember the Holocaust for the early years
now do we?
you don’t, olerg. because the germans were preoccupied with murdering the (primarily catholic) polish elite by the tens of thousands before they later moved on to the murder of polish jews. tell me olerg, when you use the term ‘holocaust’ are you referring to millions of gentiles murdered by the nazis too? you do know that hitler et al intended to murder all poles, gentile and jewish alike, and that over 3million polish non-jews were killed in the war?
What are your views of Snyder’s figures, his interpretation of Generalplan Ost etc.?
“tell me olerg, when you use the term ‘holocaust’ are you referring to millions of gentiles murdered by the nazis too?”
How can he? His ideology is undistinguishable from Nazism. In fact, it is the twin sister of Nazism grown out of early 18th Century romantic nationalism. But then,every time you say these obvious things people will censor and excommunicate you because the Zionists have no mass gas chambers –yet.
Of course Klaus, you are correct. I was speaking in a general sense about the comparison; ie. that genocide occurs in sequential stages as outlined in the wiki link above – and that Israel is on that pathway.
I’m not saying Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is comparable to the shoah – which Oleg can’t seem to grasp – but that the warehousing of people in Gaza is comparable to Warsaw Ghetto, and that the related treatment of jews in pre-war nazi Germany is also comparable, within reason.
I think you might disagree about that last point but the similarities for me have to do with the demonisation of the other, property theft, dual-legal structures, attacks by military etc.
One thing for sure – Israelis will never be able to say they didn’t know what was happening. Everyone has a camera now and can easily publish via social media, blogs, facebook, twitter, YT etc.
Right – rallies and demonstrations in Israel with people screaming “death to arabs” and you seem to think no-one should be concerned or alarmed.
On this very thread you are telling us about your tragic outlook on life (“The world is largely indifferent to human suffering.”), and then you critics others for not being as jaded as yourself?
Maybe it is just you who are indifferent to the suffering of others .
@ American Yep. Red flags. Lessons learned, enough to project forward and see where Israel’s unchecked and brutally escalating behaviour might be heading.
The five outcomes of continued Israeli settlement and assimilation are known. 2SS (dead), 1SS (prospect of a protracted C/R struggle that Israel deems an Existential battle), Hafrada-stans (total separation, with international [government] acceptance, at least at first, pending grass-roots action), expulsion (slo-mo with international acquiescence, onging), or extermination (we’ve tried everything and they just won’t leave and we’re not going to allow the “destruction of Israel,” end game).
Nobody believes (or wants to believe) that the last one will happen, but then nobody believed, in advance, that 6M Jews and a similar number of undesired others would be herded into death camps. Who knows what unchecked desires lead to, even in Israel.
Red flags are important context.
How many Jews died as a result of Allied firebombing of German cities — 150 of them? Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed, and millions were rendered homeless.
After the firebombing of Hamburg, Hitler ordered that emergency shelter be provided for those left homeless, and also that women and children be evacuated from other cities. Emergency shelter was to be found for all of these now-homeless people — perhaps in camps.
Are there records of the numbers of Jews who were killed as a result of the firebombing of Germany?
I think German “Flucht” can very well apply to the flight of so many German Jews from persecution in Germany during the 1930′s.
Here is “Flucht” applied to the flight of the Huguenots from France in the 17th century: Hugenotten:
- “I think German “Flucht” can very well apply to the flight of so many German Jews from persecution in Germany during the 1930′s.” -
——–
I don’t want to downplay Hitler’s Judenpolitik of the 30s but the more appropriate term is ‘discrimination’ not ‘persecution’. It consisted mainly of the Nürnberg Laws, outlawing intermarriage and denying Jews membership in professional German organizations. This policy was appproved by leading Zionists in Germany: “Hitler had to come to make the Jews aware that they are a seperate people.”
After Austria was taken over, there was a Zentralstelle für Jüdische Auswanderung (Central Authority for Jewish Emigration) in Vienna. They helped the Zionists organize the illegal immigration to Palestine.
After the ‘Reichskristallnacht’ in November 1938, when Synagogues were burnt down and Jewish property was vandalised the situation changed from discrimination to persecution.
I imagine the USA has no such stones for the Red Indians we ethnically cleansed (well, they didn’t really live among “us”, did they, before being deported?), but, hey, we do have a celebration of Jewish “pre-state defense forces” (terrorists? freedom fighters?)
I wonder if the building in which the Schumm couple lived survived the war. Allied bombing of Hamburg — especially “Operation Gomorrah” in the last week of July 1943, which created a terrible fire storm that is estimated to have killed 42,600 people — did an awful lot of damage to buildings as well. Bombing of Hamburg in World War Two:
“Trial and error” is not quite accurate.
—-
Although “The Fire” author Jorg Friedrich observes:
he does not mention the research facility at Dugway in his book.
I once read The Fire. It was one of the most harrowing books I have ever read.
And are there a proportionate number of plaques for the Romas, Communists, Gays, “Mental Deficients” and others among the 11,000,000+ killed in the Nazi holocaust?
How are the issues of Right of Return for the heirs of dispossessed Jewish people and restitution of property being dealt with at the moment?
Rebecca Solnit’s Storming the Gates of Paradise deals with questions of American landscape and memorials to the departed peoples. She says they aren’t as departed as we’d like to think. In England meanwhile we have managed to hide the worst episodes in the cupboard marked ‘Dark Ages’.
Here is an article I noticed in Salon that I want to post for Jews who actually do have some kind of trauma or inherited trauma over the holocaust.
The ‘pretenders’ who just use it for their own ‘aren’t I special’ and political reasons can ignore this. It’s similar to what I’ve been saying about hanging on to a aberration/abnormality in human history, not matter how horrible it was, and letting it define and shape your life and future.
Augusten Burroughs: Conquer trauma by letting it go
Salon exclusive: The best-selling memoirist says past horrors haunt us because we think about them too much. Stop.
(excerpt)….
‘You must never allow something that happened to you to become a morbidly treasured heirloom that you carry around, show people occasionally, put back in its black velvet pouch, and then tuck back into your jacket where you can keep it close to your heart.
Then, when asked to join the pole vaulting club, pull the coach aside and whisper, “I can’t. See” — and remove your gem from your pocket — “this is my terrible thing and as I expected, showing it to you has taken your breath away and made you sympathetic. So I will be excused, I assume?”
Other people will allow you — they will never blame you or challenge you — to use your past as an excuse to not face the normal fears everybody has when facing their future.
Even if you were brutally physically assaulted, you must not withdraw because you are afraid it will happen again. This is not a valid exit.”
link to salon.com
“My focus,” Samuel writes, “is on the astounding ability of a generation of German children to emerge from debilitating circumstances as sane and productive human beings.”
Thanks, just ordered it.
That’s an aspect of the war, what the children went through, that isn’t recongized enough.
A good book on children’s experiences during World War Two is Nicholas Stargardt’s Witnesses of War: Children’s Lives Under the Nazis .
On the comparison: Nazis – Zionists/Jews
The Nazis thought – by ‘scientific’ biological and historical evidence – that there was something inherently inferior/bad in the Jewish character. .
This thinking was the flipside of the Jewish thought that there was something inherently superior/good in the Jewish character, either biologically or by God.
It’s irritating to everybody, if someone thinks of himself – either biologically or by God – that he/she is inherently superior. – There is also a problem with the Muslíms.
“There is also a problem with the Muslíms.”
I’ll say! When 1.5 billion people, spread all over the world, adherents to a pretty much decentralised religion, living under wildly differing cultural, economic, religious and political conditions all have the same problem, all I can say is, wow, you got a problem.
That thinking “We are better than everybody else”
exists in almost every culture even today.
Ask the French or the British or the Germans come to think of it…
But only the Jewish belief (which by the way does not clearly state better the terminology is chosen) seems to trigger that sort of irritation.
BTW An old Jewish anecdote.
A rabbi prays to God a
“Dear Lord i know we are the chosen people and i know that we were chosen by your
grace, but i ask you this,
Why couldn’t you have chosen somebody else ?”
No, a cultivated exceptionality by anybgroup over others is disgusting to all.
You say and project that only ideas of Jewish exceptional ism triggers irritation.
The smaltzy joke is vulgar, not funny.
/No, a cultivated exceptionality by anybgroup over others is disgusting to all./
Yet only the Jewish idea of exceptionality gets
so much attention and publicity.
>> Yet only the Jewish idea of exceptionality gets so much attention and publicity.
American exceptionality gets plenty of attention and publicity. But you pretend you don’t notice it because you don’t like biting the hand that feeds you.
” Yet only the Jewish idea of exceptionality gets so much attention and publicity.”
There are obvious reasons for why it gets singled out….it’s not like there are some Jewish individuals who believe in their own individual superiority and keep it to themselves or among themselves. What has happened is those who believe this have made it a ”Brand’ for Jews and publicly promote Jews to the world as superior to others.
There is a ‘cult’ following of this idea that is mixed in also with the victimhood exceptionalism in zionism and Israel. ..it’s not unusual to see zionist claim that anti semitism occurs because lessers resent or are jealous of Jews superior talents, etc,etc..
It’s the group cult that attracts the attention….because it is a group with some power and because of the Israel and zionist behavior which represents this idea of superiority and exceptionalism.
If there were a organized group of Gentiles or non Jews prancing on the world stage doing/promoting the same thing they would get the same attention.
“Yet only the Jewish idea of exceptionality gets
so much attention and publicity.”
Some unscrupulous electronics dealer is ripping off Jews! Imagine how debased you have to be to sell Jews like Oleg a computer with a browser that only gets one website and that website one they don’t like.
I wonder how much trouble and misunderstanding this here goniff is engendering while he rakes in the sheckels? Outrageous!
There is an easy solution for this rabbi’s problem:
He should cancel his special contract with God become a goy and join Christianity.
That would be difficult since one of Christian postulates is that they are
the New Israel.
Another thing is that you can’t unbecome a Jew even if you change religion
…which means you can’t become a Jew by converting, right? Remind me again when Israel stopped organization its ID system by (what it considered) a person’s race (Jewish or Arab, instead of just Israeli).
Another thing is that you can’t unbecome a Jew even if you change religion
According to Jewish Law, a Jew who converts to another religion (mumar lete’avon/lehac’is) is considered to have left the community of Jews. Jews can, and have, been banned from synagogues and the community (Spinoza was just one in a series of those who were excommunicated). Jews who convert to Christianity are treated as outsiders and are denied the benefits of membership in the Jewish community.
Israeli law also limits the Right of Return to children of Jews who do not practice another religion.
All Chosen People can choose to become unchosen.
He has left the community but he hasn’t stopped being a Jew.
A bad Jew a sinner Jew but a Jew nonetheless.
Most of the rabbinical authority that debated on this point agreed that that is
the situation.
>> He has left the community but he hasn’t stopped being a Jew.
>> Most of the rabbinical authority that debated on this point agreed that that is the situation.
This is just too funny! Someone decides not to be Jew anymore, but some “rabbinical authority” – which has no authority over him as a human being – says he’s still something he has decided he is not!
“Another thing is that you can’t unbecome a Jew even if you change religion”?
You mean you can go and get those apostates, and force them to return to “the Jewish community”
And BTW, Oleg, congratulations with that “you can’t unbecome a Jew” for internalising and making a self-serving tenet out of one of the cornerstones of anti-Semitism, good job, fella.
So Oleg, if you can’t “unbecome” a Jew, than there’s no virtue in being one, is there, anymore than there is in having a certain color hair or eyes, right?
Now, there’s an attractive doctrine which will, without a doubt, increase adherence among young Jews. After all, why wouldn’t someone delight in the knowledge that he was condemned to be a Jew, and couldn’t change it. Yes sir, that’ll make him wanna stay forever, and raise his children up that way.
But most of all, that ‘once-Jewish-always-Jewish’ idea is the mainspring of anti-Semitism, and I congratulate you for internalising it, and even trying to turn it to your advantage. I mean what else could you do?
“Another thing is that you can’t unbecome a Jew even if you change religion”
To be deadly serious for a minute, I wouldn’t want Oleg’s ignorant comment to dissaude any who are thinking of making the big jump. Foreskin-replacement surgery has made fantastic strides in the past decade, and almost an out-patient procedure by this time.
““rabbinical authority” – which has no authority over him as a human being – says he’s still something he has decided he is not!”
Is there anything as fungible as Jewish religious process? So we can take the Occupation as a holy Jewish project? Lot’s of “rabbinacal authourity” says it is!
Is there no limit to the amount of self-servingly pious bullshit Zionist Jews are willing to serve up to Gentiles?
@ Oleg –
I brought specific examples of how a Jew who, out of personal conviction, no longer associates with the community, is no longer considered to be Jewish. A concrete expression of this, is that, according to Jewish law, you may not desecrate the Sabbath to save such a person’s life (Mishna Berurah, Shulhan Arukh, Orah Hayim 329:3)
I already quoted sraeli law, which follows Jewish law on questions of Jewishness.
In reponse you asserted:
Most of the rabbinical authority that debated on this point agreed that that is the situation.
Would you provide references to support your statement?
What are you credentials to speak for rabbinic authority?
Would you respond to the rabbinic point of law that I referenced. Namely, that, per Judaism, a Jew can elect out of the Jewish people?
“you can’t unbecome a Jew …”
————————————————————————————-
I know. But why? Let’s take a look at the aristocracy. Their status was inherited.
There was animosity towards the aristocracy because they enjoyed privileges and had a certain arrogant demeanor because of their inherited superior status.
Now, aristocrats have become commoners. Someone may be of aristocratic descent and still have such a name but his status now is a commoner. And you know what? – The animosity against the aristocracy is gone.
If Jews did the same thing, become commoners – anti-Semitism would be gone.
- If an aristocrat can unbecome an aristocrat – why can’t a Jews unbecome a Jew?
Klaus, don’t you know about the Jew Gene? They were looking for the Jewish finger print in the 50′s and gave that up, but there is still the research arm (funded by you know who) hunting for the Jewish Gene. It’s gotta’ be there somewhere.
Can you unbecome being a German ?
Do you not find such a proposal to be extremely offensive?
Stop being Germans forget the language the tradition the history in fact dismantle Germany, call it something else Utopia maybe.
That would certainly cut all the ties with your country’s dark past.
Would you like to ?
When the idea of a national identity becomes obsolete world wide
then i would consider such a proposal (though how can you reconcile it with the idea of multiculturalism) as not offensive.
OlegR:
Yes.
No.
So we are all africans really. Start dismantling your states, Africa Unite.
Now i see. Blame someone forever what forefathers did time ago.
You dont have all nuts & bolts in order Oleg.
>> Can you unbecome being a German ?
Thanks to plastic surgery, a man can unbecome being a man. To unbecome being a German or a Jew is considerably easier – it simply requires the person to stop being a German or a Jew and to start being something else.
>> Do you not find such a proposal to be extremely offensive?
Nope. There’s nothing offensive about a person’s decision – their freely-made choice – to stop being a man or a German or a Jew.
It’s a sad thing that petty minds like yours are unwilling to accept such choices.
“- If an aristocrat can unbecome an aristocrat – why can’t a Jews unbecome a Jew?”
Yes, but don’t those aristocrats tend to lose their heads in the process?
“Klaus, don’t you know about the Jew Gene?”
You get those from Claude Levi-Strauss & Co. right? In straight-leg or relaxed fit.
@Mooser
They only lose their heads metaphorically nowadays!
Tony Benn = Anthony Wedgewood Benn = Viscount Stansfield.
Renounced title on death of his father so he could stand for Parliament. Lefty firebrand back in the day. Father of (mr) Hilary Benn MP.
There are others, but I could only think of this one right now.
- “aristocrats tend to lose their heads” [when they unbecome aristocrats]
That’s actually what a German Philosopher of the 19th century suggested for the Jews (I think it was Fichte), he said: “You got to cut off their heads and replace it by a German head.”
“Can you unbecome being a German ?”
Julia Gillard was able to unbecome being British. Had she not, she would not have become Prime Minister. (Many of us regret this outcome, but not for reasons connected with her former Britishness.)
” Do you not find such a proposal to be extremely offensive?”
What could be offensive about it?
Jeans are Italian, don’t Geno a.
@ OlegR:
I agree with mig and eljay.
“Can you unbecome being a German?”
Yes. Just change your nationality.
“Do you not find such a proposal to be extremely offensive?”
No. Objectively, all nationalities are equally good or bad. There is no hierarchy. So, why should I be offended?
“That would certainly cut all the ties with your country’s dark past.”
Things that happened before I was born have nothing to do with me. I am not responsible for them and they were not done in my name.
Besides, the Holocaust didn’t happen in MY country. My home country is the GDR. Now, I live in the FRG. These are the two German countries that I know from own experience, that I identify with and that I have a personal and emotional connection to. All other, previously existing German states are pretty much like foreign countries to me.
/“Can you unbecome being a German?”
Yes. Just change your nationality./
That’s all there is to it to being a German
a passport?
“That’s all there is to it to being a German – a passport?”
Yes, of course. That’s the lowest common denominator. What else do you expect? Germans are individuals, not a homogeneous crowd.
Germans are individuals, not a homogeneous crowd.
what is this madness? of course they’re a homogenous crowd. any german child physically capable of lifting a luger who didn’t rush the podium to kill hitler got what s/he had coming when the allies dropped an incendiary on his/her head, and any offspring of the survivors are guilty too. and their children after them just for good measure.
/P-S. I didn’t take your question to mean I must be inherently murderous./
Good.
that’s a comic worthy exchange. klaus absolves the racist of racism, and then the racist rants for another 20-odd comments about the indivisible DNA strand of judaism, the collective guilt of germans, the *ho hum* justified incineration of german children who didn’t prove their ‘innocence’ sufficiently by taking up arms against the nazis, etc. etc.
“any german child physically capable of lifting a luger who didn’t rush the podium to kill hitler got what s/he had coming when the allies dropped an incendiary on his/her head, and any offspring of the survivors are guilty too.”
I am not sure what to think of this. Are you serious or do you merely parody some crazy person? If you are serious, then I ask you to make up your mind. On the one hand, you condemn Germans for having been killers (of Jews). On the other hand, you condemn Germans for NOT having been killers (of Hitler). So, do you approve of the killing of people or not? These right-wing Zionists are f*cking hard to please.
“any german child physically capable of lifting a luger who didn’t rush the podium to kill …
I am not sure what to think of this.
das war ein witz, mann.
- “that’s a comic worthy exchange. klaus absolves the racist of racism.”
Yes, that’s comical. But I think when Oleg asked me about my father and WW II he was actually interested to know wether my father had fought in the war against Soviet Russia, which was the most brutal one in Eastern Europe and the Russian losses were the largest.
———————
But one shouldn’t play by Oleg’s rules and pay attention to his question about Germans unbecoming Germans. I asked him a question about aristocracy and Jews. He is free not to respond. But when he does, he can not turn it around and say “well being a Jew I answer a question with a question”. – That’s also comic, but I don’t play by his comic Jewish rules.
Its parody, GL.
Peter Elder, one of my professors when I was in graduate school at Harvard, used to tell us about one occasion in early 1939 when he was in Munich, eating at a restaurant (Vier Jahreszeiten, I believe), when a party including Hitler came in, sat down at the next table, and proceeded to eat. Elder said that, if he had had a gun, he could easily have shot Hitler (he had not been searched), and, after the fact, regretted the fact that he had not.
This illustrates a number of things: one, Hitler’s security was feeble enough that it would have been relatively easy to assassinate him; two, at that point, even a well-educated American never considered doing such a thing.
@ marc b.:
“das war ein witz, mann.”
Erstens einmal bin ich eine Frau und kein Mann. Zweitens finde ich das wirklich nicht lustig. Ich bin ziemlich neu hier und kann deshalb die einzelnen Leute hier noch nicht einschätzen. Daher würde ich dich bitten, derlei “Scherze” in Zukunft sein zu lassen. Danke.
But I think when Oleg asked me about my father and WW II he was actually interested to know wether my father had fought in the war against Soviet Russia . . .
i think you give olerg too much credit, klaus. he sees the world in two shades: jew and anti-jew. all of his questions and commentary are rhetorical, affirming in his mind the supreme importance of the ‘jews’ and the natural anti-semitic inclinations of the ‘anti-jews’.
And it illustrates one more thing: Hitler wasn’t the dictator who was afraid of his people. There is one thing I dislike very much and that is that the politically correct Germans say: ‘The Allies liberated us from Hitler’s dictatorship’. Even Der Spiegel writes such dumb stuff. It’s utter nonsense. The Allies liberated Europe from the German occupation – and well yes, along the way us from Hitler.
i understand it can be confusing getting a foothold on the personalities of the different posters german lefty. i thought it was clear marc was mocking/chastising him and defending your ptv when he followed up with the *ho hum* justified incineration of german children who didn’t prove their ‘innocence’ sufficiently by taking up arms against the nazis, etc. etc.
oleg is a hard core zionist. marc is…one of us.
no, frau links, i don’t find it all that funny either. but it’s how i deal with the likes of olerg on the internet. don’t let my callousness scare you away. another fellow lefty is always welcome. die linke oder SPD? ich verfolge die karrier von lafontaine seit ich in deutschland gelebt. (or something like that)
@ marc b.
“don’t let my callousness scare you away.”
Okay. I’ll try to get used to your callousness ;-)
“die linke oder SPD?”
Die Linke, of course. The SPD is not actually left, merely centre-left and mainstream.
“ich verfolge die karrier von lafontaine seit ich in deutschland gelebt.”
Oh. After your previous post in German, I assumed you were a native speaker. That’s why I replied in German. Do you still live in Germany? Where do you come from?
@ Annie Robbins
“i thought it was clear marc was mocking/chastising him and defending your ptv when he followed up with [...]”
Well, this contradiction got me confused. As I haven’t read any of Marc’s previous posts, I couldn’t figure out which of the statements was meant seriously and which not.
“oleg is a hard core zionist. marc is…one of us.”
I have read several of Oleg’s posts. His views are shockingly obvious. One would think that Jewish people have a really strong sense of justice after what happened to their ancestors, but clearly they aren’t a homogeneous crowd either.
One of us – that sounds nice.
Do you still live in Germany?
no. my father was stationed near idar-oberstein after the second world war and i was stationed at a base in the hunsrück in the late 80s-early 90s. my father was fluent in german, but i didn’t learn it nearly as well. by the time i was there, most germans around the various bases spoke english. i last visited about three years ago when my brother was living in bruxelles.
@ marc b.
“my father was stationed near idar-oberstein after the second world war and i was stationed at a base in the hunsrück in the late 80s-early 90s.”
So, you are from the USA then?
It is not my intention to insult you, but as a pacifist I think of soldiers as contract killers who deserve nothing but condemnation and imprisonment. Did you know that “Die Linke” wants to abolish the military? The prevailing opinion in the USA seems to be that the killing and/or torturing of foreigners is a great act of patriotism. These killers and torturers even get parades. Al-Qaeda members killed 3,000 innocent people in New York. That makes them terrorists. US troops killed over 100,000 innocent people in Iraq. That makes them … heroes? Anyway, what I’d like to ask you is WHY do people join the military?
The prevailing opinion in the USA seems to be that the killing and/or torturing of foreigners is a great act of patriotism
it may appear that way from afar from the news reports and the reality of our foreign policy..but frankly i don’t think most americans pay attention to our wars, it so never ending. that doesn’t mean the prevailing opinion of americans supports killing and/or torturing of foreigners or we think it’s patriotic. also, sometimes soldiers grow up and change their minds..sometimes the experience of being in wars changes people. not every person who, as a young person joins the military, remains a supporter of our military adventures.
most american have no idea what’s happening in our wars. they really don’t. it’s not like israel where most people serve.
Why do people join the military? Advertising that appeals to the mind of a teenage man/boy.
One night I was walking my dog late in the evening in Weisbaden. I came upon a gentleman who noticed my Amerikanische accent. He said he had been a pow under the Americans and that is probably why he was still alive — because he was captured early in his game.
I’ll never forget how he laughed at himself with a sence of self disgust when he said he actually joined the Wehrmacht because he wanted to experience “the victory?”
He walked away in the dark shaking his head about himself.
So back to your question? Maybe it is the mind of undeveloped and brainwashed young men.
@ Annie Robbins
“that doesn’t mean the prevailing opinion of americans supports killing and/or torturing of foreigners or we think it’s patriotic.”
Good, that’s a relief. But what about the soldiers? Why are they so idolized? People like Rachel Maddow constantly refer to soldiers as heroes. I find this horrible.
“sometimes soldiers grow up and change their minds [...] most american have no idea what’s happening in our wars.”
You probably know who Ethan McCord is. A while ago, he was on a German TV show to report on his wartime experiences and how he now visits schools to talk students out of joining the military. When McCord told the host of the show that it was so terrible for him to see all these innocent people getting shot, the host – a pacifist – asked him something along the lines of, “But didn’t you know that this is what happens in wars? I mean, what did you expect?” Of course, he put it more politely. Anyway, McCord replied that before he joined the military he thought that “war brings freedom” instead of death.
“I asked him a question about aristocracy and Jews.”
Klaus, as I’m sure you know, there’s a big difference between those who are made aristocrats, have titles and honors conferred on them, and the world’s natural aristocrats. If nature makes you uber then that’s just uber all over, as the saying goes.
“One would think that Jewish people have a really strong sense of justice after what happened to their ancestors”
Cause anti-Semitism was good for us? Cause the Holocaust made us better people, if we lived? Gosh, from my experience, people who are brutalised become brutal when they possibly can, and it is not unknown, all over the world, for people (like Zionists, in case I am becoming abstruse) to take political or cultural advantage of brutal events to achieve their own ends.
I can’t stand that point of view! The Holocaust, like the rest of them (genocides and holocausts in general) is a bad thing, which has bad effects. Not good.
No, the Holocaust was not a challenge out of which the Jewish people could grow and achieve ethical self-actualisation and heightened compassion. If it was, why not have another, and this time we’ll become perfect!
“I am not sure what to think of this.”
That’s what keeps ‘em coming back to Mondoweiss!
linke
i joined because i had family members who served in wwi, wwii, korea, vietnam. it was considered a patriotic tradition, particularly for immigrant families like my parents. a way of proving their loyalty in a way, i guess. that’s how my polish grandfather wound up permanently in the states, by fighting for the americans in wwi. but my children won’t serve if i have anything to say about it. i can’t say that i have the discipline to be a pacifist(more of a luddite) but that’s the direction i’m leaning. consumer capitalism and militarism are dead ends.
and annie is right. it’s not an excuse, but very few americans really have the slightest idea about what goes on in our wars. i know you don’t have much sympathy for soldiers, but the public is shielded as much as possible from the amputees and brain damaged. all the public sees is some soldier being honored at a football game on TV.
- “difference between ‘made’ aristocrats and ‘natural’ aristocrats” – Mooser
Of course I know the difference: I belong to the ‘natural’ aristocrats and you to the ‘God made ‘ones. How about your ‘God made aristocratic club’?
Why do you keep complaining about it? Go ahead and resign from it.
“… from my experience, people who are brutalised become brutal when they possibly can, and it is not unknown, all over the world, for people (like Zionists, in case I am becoming abstruse) to take political or cultural advantage of brutal events to achieve their own ends.”
Excellent point, Mooser.
Two different ways to look at that, Mooser.
1. Are you willing to accord the same action-reaction system to Germans? Germans were starved to death (800,000 of them, by deliberate action of Allies — Churchill said he intended the blockade of Germany in WWI to “starve the Germans into submission). Given that experience, and considering the argument that C Paul Vincent makes in The Politics of Hunger: The Allied Blockade of Germany, 1915-1919, that the experience of malnourishment among young Germans left permanent mental and physical disabilities; and on taking aboard the further information, from Herbert Hoover’s journal, Freedom Betrayed: Herbert Hoover’s Secret History of the Second World War and Its Aftermath, that Hitler had three goals, from beginning to end of his time in power:
1. to redress the Versailles treaty;
2. to ensure that NEVER AGAIN would the German people be starved to death; and
3. to destroy Bolshevic communism.
Regarding point #2., consider this:
Wise was not a humble kosher curé; he spent more time in the White House and State Department than most GS-13s.
So.
Does your experience apply to Germans, too? –
“from my experience, people who are brutalised become brutal when they possibly can, and it is not unknown, all over the world, for people (like Zionists, in case I am becoming abstruse) to take political or cultural advantage of brutal events to achieve their own ends.
2. But on the other hand, I challenge your experience. Germans were thrice brutalized — in WW I they were starved; in the run-up to the second war they were threatened with starvation; during the war German cities were firebombed and hundreds of thousands of Germans incinerated and millions made homeless; 2 million German women were raped. But Germany has not brutalized anyone in the past 65+ years.
Iranians had their government pulled out from under them; they endured a war waged on their soil, and they endured the chemical slaughter of tens of thousands of their civilians; they endured the shooting down of their civilian airbus and the death of 240 or more civilian passengers. But Iran has not reacted with brutal force.
Americans were victors in Germany, and manipulated events in Iran, and in the past half-century, Americans have been the most brutal of all.
So your theory does not hold up, but if it did, it would have to apply to pre-WWII Germany.
@ Mooser
“No, the Holocaust was not a challenge out of which the Jewish people could grow and achieve ethical self-actualisation and heightened compassion. If it was, why not have another, and this time we’ll become perfect!”
That was not how I meant it. You misinterpreted my comment. I don’t think of the Holocaust as a challenge for Jews to achieve whatever. That would be a really crazy and creepy idea. What I tried to express was that people learn from experiences, whether they were good or bad. As I said before, neither Germans nor Jews are a homogeneous crowd. So, when I made the comment about the “stronger sense of justice”, I apparently projected my own character onto others. If I were the victim of injustice, then I wouldn’t want this kind of injustice to happen to someone else.
“From my experience, people who are brutalised become brutal when they possibly can, and it is not unknown for people to take political or cultural advantage of brutal events to achieve their own ends.”
It looks like victims of injustice can react in two different ways: Either they join the club “Never again for me” or the club “Never again for anyone”.
“One would think that Jewish people have a really strong sense of justice after what happened to their ancestors” – German Lefty
“I can’t stand that point of view!” – Mooser
———————————————————————-
I know what you mean Lefty but Mooser has a really good point.
There is this crazy notion that the Holocaust somehow must have, should have, ennobled Jewry. – That’s why Mooser says: “If it was, why not have another, and this time we’ll become perfect!”
@ marc b.
“my children won’t serve if i have anything to say about it. i can’t say that i have the discipline to be a pacifist but that’s the direction i’m leaning.”
So, your views changed. That’s very good.
“very few americans really have the slightest idea about what goes on in our wars.”
That’s really hard to imagine. I mean, in the digital era, people have access to so much information. There were also these photos of tortured Iraqis that US soldiers took in the Abu Ghraib prison.
“i know you don’t have much sympathy for soldiers”
Right. I have no sympathy for people who start a war. By that I mean the attacking troops, not the entire population of the country that declared war. Nowadays, the military consists of volunteers. So, nobody is forced to participate in attacking another nation and thereby killing other people. Those who do it voluntarily know the risk, because they have to anticipate that the attacked nation (rightfully) defends itself. So, if they get killed or injured, it’s their own fault. They practically ask for it by starting the war. Therefore, they really don’t deserve sympathy. Take, for example, the German troops in Afghanistan. Although they didn’t initiate the war, they help those who did it. And this is almost equally terrible. That’s why I am not sad when German troops get killed or injured there. But please don’t get me wrong. I am not happy about it either. I am indifferent.
@ Annie Robbins
“most american have no idea what’s happening in our wars. it’s not like israel where most people serve.”
Regarding Israel, I stumbled upon this article:
link to rehmat1.com
“If I were the victim of injustice, then I wouldn’t want this kind of injustice to happen to someone else.”
Why, you sound exactly like a Zionist! In fact, that’s what they will all tell you, that Zionism is their way of making sure it never happens again. So go figure.
Now, there are people, few and far between, who have the moral strength to draw universal moral conclusions from personally suffered in justice. But saints are few and far between. And I ask you, can Jews even become saints? I made some enquiries, once about having myself beautified, and a all I got was a firm nolle prosequi and the old miss-in-baulk. They wouldn’t even consider it. Of course, I realise that putting “I’m still married” and ” nobody has killed me yet” in the “miracles” column is weak, but it’s all I had.
“It looks like victims of injustice can react in two different ways: Either they join the club “Never again for me” or the club “Never again for anyone”.
Or they can just get good old PTSD, or have their personality fractured, and weakened, and become morally and socially confused. Not to mention of course, the wonderful physical effects concentration camps have.
From what I’ve heard, the experience was not conducive to moral strengthening, except in the minds of those who haven’t been through it.
“What I tried to express was that people learn from experiences, whether they were good or bad”
Ah, so I can only assume that those who died, got the full experience, learned most of all! That should be a lesson for all of us.
“2. But on the other hand, I challenge your experience. Germans were thrice brutalized — in WW I they were starved; in the run-up to the second war they were threatened with starvation; during the war German cities were firebombed and hundreds of thousands of Germans incinerated and millions made homeless; 2 million German women were raped. But Germany has not brutalized anyone in the past 65+ years.”
Look we get it, we get it; Germans are better than Jews. I can live with that. I have never ever claimed that being Jewish made me better than a German.
“Of course I know the difference: I belong to the ‘natural’ aristocrats and you to the ‘God made ‘ones. How about your ‘God made aristocratic club’?”
Well it’s nice to know you can be truthful about yourself, and I always make it a rule to recognise natural superiority. I can’t understand why, when the Aryan racial theory was promolgated, the world would not accept such an obvious fact.
German Lefty, when Americans need information to draw conclusions about serious subjects like war, they always return to the bedrock scriptures, the divine truths, of our culture: TV and movies. Once you understand that, the rest becomes very explicable. It makes it possible to ascertain the truth without too much drama, just a whole lot of melodrama.
“Ah, so I can only assume that those who died, got the full experience, learned most of all! That should be a lesson for all of us.”
Oh, please. I can’t win with you, can I? I am sure that you know exactly how my comment was meant. So, please stop twisting my words.
- “The Aryan racial theory [of] natural superiority” – Mooser
- “I belong to the ‘natural’ aristocrats” – Klaus
Well Mooser, unfortunately my ‘Club of Aryan Supremacists’ was abolished by you Americans. Too bad. I’m among the last card/gene carrying members of that defunct club.
“Or they can just get good old PTSD, or have their personality fractured, and weakened, and become morally and socially confused. Not to mention of course, the wonderful physical effects concentration camps have.”
We were discussing people’s attitudes, not other effects.
So, please stop twisting my words.
are you talking to mooser? apparently you didn’t get my message earlier, or it didn’t sink in.
link to mondoweiss.net
“Well Mooser, unfortunately my ‘Club of Aryan Supremacists’ was abolished by you Americans. Too bad. I’m among the last card/gene carrying members of that defunct club.”
We all have our crass to bear.
“I can’t win with you, can I?
Why on earth do you want to? At any rate, you could win in one stroke by telling us what positive things you expect to come out of the Holocaust, and providing even a minimal proof that they did in any significant amounts.
You will win bonus points by giving us the minimum number of people who have to die in order to have the rest learn the lessons and acquire the qualities they should from the experience. Perhaps if just a few more people had died, everybody would finally have drawn the proper conclusions, and the survivors would emerge from the liberated camps to lead us to a golden age.
“But Germany has not brutalized anyone in the past 65+ years.”
And people say that dividing Germany accomplished nothing!
“If I were the victim of injustice, then I wouldn’t want this kind of injustice to happen to someone else.”
Yes, but not everybody has your superior soul. At any rate, those who died in the process can comfort themselves with the thought that they were contributing to their fellow-man’s moral enlightenment. That’s a wonderful thing to go through eternity with.
I mean, considering what happened with Zionism and all, maybe Jews just don’t have that capacity to survive a death-camp and improve their ethics and morals at the same time. Not like you, who is so sure being the victim of injustice will improve you. Say, you ready to test it out? Cause I could really use somebody to take my rap, and serve 3-7 in the state pen (I never laid a finger on that boy, and he told me he was a 37 year old woman who consented) Just think what a strong sense of justice for others you will have when you get out. Why, everybody should do an indeterminate sentence, it’s better than a month of Sunday School.
-” maybe Jews just don’t have that capacity to survive a death-camp and improve their ethics and morals at the same time.” – Mooser
——————————————————————————————
Nobody has. And it’s nonsense to confer some higher moral authority to the generation of Jews after the Holocaust. This is a valid argument by Mooser.
“Americans were victors in Germany, and manipulated events in Iran, and in the past half-century, Americans have been the most brutal of all.”
I never said that winning would make you not brutal, that’s a false inference.
Wouldn’t surpise me if in fact, winning made you more brutal than losing.
But that would mean that the world is full of brutality and man (at least in modern times) with the assistance of his machines, tends towards brutality.
Try not to cry to hard about that, and if it spoils your beauty sleep, I’ll send you some Seconal. I’ve got plenty.
@Mooser
I was going to correct your spelling of “beatified”, until it occurred to me that you probably really meant “beautified”!
“(which by the way does not clearly state better the terminology is chosen) ”
This is such a bs cop out. If you were to say “chosen by a lottery drawing” then your deflection on the implication of “better” might be valid. But when you are saying, “chosen by God, the creator of all things, the most powerful, perfect being in the universe to be HIS PEOPLE” then you’ve pretty much conceded the “special” point even if you don’t use that word.
- “Can you unbecome being a German ?” -
That wasn’t my question. My question was: When the aristocrats can give up their inherited status why can’t the Jews? And is there anything offensive to the suggestion that aristocrats should become commoners?
Well being a Jew i answered a question with a question,
so here we are.
- Let me answer that question myself.
Aristotle made the distinction between the essence of something, its ‘essential’ properties and its ‘accidental’ properties.
For instance. A dog has essential properties being a dog and accidental ones, i.e. it can be bred into a hunting dog, a shephard’s dog, a watchdog or an attack dog etc. – But a dog can never be bred into rabbit. There are essential properties to the species dog.
You think a Jew can never become a Gentile and therefore concider Jews to have ‘essential’ properties that define their Jewishness, to be Jewish is not an ‘accidental’ property (in the Aristotelian sense). It’s like a species and the Gentiles are a different species or a set of different sub-species of humanity.
So far there is no value judgement involed whether Jews or Gentiles, dogs or rabbits are more or less worth than the other. – But still, this concept of Jewishness as an essential property is strange.
Well being a Jew i answered a question with a question,
so here we are.
No, you just deflected the question, rather than answer it, because your direct answer might have damaged your argument. Your religion or ethnicity had nothing to do with it.
You define Gentiles as something homogeneous which they are not
and setting Jews apart, i do not do that.
Jews are just another nation/ethnicity among many
German , French , Russian , Dutch , Italian , Swiss etc…
An individual Jew can do whatever he likes
though you can’t undo you upbringing but he can make sure that his children
won’t be Jewish.
But why would every Jew want to do something of the sort
and why would anyone demand or propose it to them ?
“But a dog can never be bred into rabbit.”
(This is where I become a pendant.) False. There is at least one viable path to do so. You merely have to breed the dog through successive generations to replicate, in reverse, the evolutionary path taken between the last common ancestor of the dog and rabbit and modern dogs, and then breed that animal, following the evolutionary path between it and modern rabbits. Practically impossible, but not actually impossible.
“But still, this concept of Jewishness as an essential property is strange.”
Strange? Isn’t the same concept of making an “other” out of people we wish to control or exploit, thus relieving ourselves of any human commonality which might lead to resistance to the exploitation?
It’s exactly the same thing as assigning a host of characteristics according to skin color (A practice I’m sure you abjure, Klaus, you see the aboriginal in Australia or New Guinea as your equal or even in some ways, your superior, and I laud you for it.)
What is so telling, tho, (excuse my elision of the “ugh”, trying to save space) is that Zionists adopt one of the dehumanising concepts of anti-Semitism for themselves, and are willing to sacrifice their humanity to the interests of a gangster colony. For a religion and people like us Jews, that is an ignominious and degrading end, and a repudiation of our history.
“and are willing to sacrifice their humanity to the interests of a gangster colony.”
Of course, given the situation at the time, it’s not surprising. Extreme stress will bring forth extreme solutions. But the tenacity in clinging to it, and the studied inability to alter it’s doomsday course, is, frankly, surprising.
Well, I’m not gonna worry, Schmuel keeps on telling me an individual conscience is not a desirable lifestyle accessory for a Jew, Judaism being a “oui thing. Gosh, could that be another example of Jews taking anti-Semitic concepts for their own? Now, that’s assimilation!
Just want to point out that no matter what the Rabbis say, I will never be, I am completly incapable of being, anything but a Jew. What can I say? I guess it’s just the cross I have to bear.
Woody Tanaka says:
This is where I become a pendant.) False. There is at least one viable path to do so. You merely have to breed the dog through successive generations to replicate, in reverse, the evolutionary path taken between the last common ancestor of the dog and rabbit and modern dogs
Permit me to be pendantic. There are probably a number of mutational steps that are irreversible. Deletions are the most obvious but if one of the ancestors to either dogs or rabbits was a hybrid, going backwards would be impossible in principle if the two donor species are now extinct. Hence impossible in principle.
- “For a religion and people like us Jews, that [dehumanising others] is an ignominious and degrading end, and a repudiation of our history.”
——
Is it? Isn’t it more a follow up to “remember the Amalek”?
Oleg – I want to answer your question “Can you unbecome being a German?” My answer is an intellectual duty-free service to you.
My father’s family unbecame Dutch and became German. (250 years ago.)
The name ‘Bloemker’ (Bloom-kerl) is Dutch and means flower grower.
You see, that’s possible among Gentiles.
A religion is not an ethnicity OlegR. Black people can convert to Judaism (Sammy Davis Jr) but a white man cannot convert to being black.
Zionists adopt one of the dehumanising concepts of anti-Semitism for themselves, and are willing to sacrifice their humanity to the interests of a gangster colony.
Mooser, I love your puns, your jokes, your witticisms, your scintillating quips that would make poor, dear, Oscar grind his teeth in envy, but this serious statement outdoes them all as a summary of the conceptual and actual evil of Zionism.
“Permit me to be pendantic.”
You don’t need our permission to hang round someone’s neck and swing back and forth.
- [Being Jewish is] “the cross I have to bear.” – Mooser
Are you passing that cross on to your children?
@Oleg
- “why would anyone demand or propose it to them ?” [to unbecome a Jew]
That was my proposal to the rabbi in your joke, who complained about being Jewish. I said: Well cancel your contract with God and join Christianity.
But being Jewish has been rightfully described as belonging to a club from which there is no resignation. That’s also Mooser’s fate, he complains about the club but can’t resign.
” being Jewish [is] belonging to a club from which there is no resignation.”
——————
I just checked what Elliot said on the matter. He says otherwise. Technically he must be right.
LMAO. I noticed that I was the originator of this misspelling. There is a certain charm is misspelling “pedant.”
“There are probably a number of mutational steps that are irreversible. Deletions are the most obvious but if one of the ancestors to either dogs or rabbits was a hybrid, going backwards would be impossible in principle if the two donor species are now extinct. Hence impossible in principle.”
This is the reason why I made a distinction between it being impossible in principle and practically: although the odds against it are microscopically small, there is still a greater than zero chance — in principle — that mutations might occur which would replicate the genetic result of the hybridization or the deletion, even if the mechanism of their occurring in reality is not different. Again, as a practical matter, impossible, but not in principle because even a 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance is, in principle, possible.
I’m not German but my children have German heritage. I don’t call it “German BLOOD” because I don’t think in those terms. I think of their German heritage as a cultural legacy — a sense of intellectual rigor and discipline that forms the basis of moral character; honor, integrity, industriousness, heightened aesthetic sensibility, commitment to creativity and productivity as an essential human way of being; a somewhat conservative perspective on sexual matters. The German-ness that my children inherited from two of their four grandfathers (only one of whom they knew) provided models of being gentle, honest, hard working, humble, and wise.
If I were German, I would not want to be un-German. My own Euro-ethnic roots are not German, and I would not want to be un-[those roots]. otoh, Recently, I’ve begun to seriously question whether I want to continue to be American, the place where I and my children were born. I am not proud of what my culture and country have become.
@ Oleg
The Swiss are no more of a nation than the Swiss Of your example are. The Swiss would be offended by this characterization. Switzerland is an administrative confederation of many different central european groups. After all the Conferderation Helvetica has four federal languages and many dialects of each group in the Confederation.
It could be a model for Israelistan.
“Practically impossible, but not actually impossible.”
I don’t know, dogs might have some objection to being bred to their ancestors. Most male dogs I know are not necrophiliacs, but you never know about some of these new breeds. Some of those “hairless” breeds are pretty creepy.
“but a white man cannot convert to being black.”
Sure, but that doesn’t relieve you of the responsibility of doing the best you possibly can!
“make poor, dear, Oscar grind his teeth in envy,”
That’s pretty wild, but I know you’re not in earnest. Muppets don’t have teeth.
“You define Gentiles as something homogeneous which they are not
and setting Jews apart, i do not do that.
Jews are just another nation/ethnicity among many
German , French , Russian , Dutch , Italian , Swiss etc…
An individual Jew can do whatever he likes”
And you thought OlegR would never comer around to the 1S view! It’s a natural consequence of what he purports to believe.
Oleg was paraphrasing the Talmud (BT Sanhedrin 44a) in its gloss on a verse from the Book of Joshua. The scope of the statement is limited and subject to much debate over the last 15oo years.
The thrust of the Talmud’s statement is that a sinner is still a member of the community. This statement does not address a Jew who is not guilty of any infraction but the desire to leave the community. As I’ve posted already, there are Halachic ways for a Jew to opt out of the Jewish community.
Oleg is an honest representative of the official Israeli mindset. The State of Israel counts foreign-born children of expatriate Israelis as Israeli and inflates its Jewish census in other artificial ways too.
@ AllenBee
“my children have German heritage. I don’t call it “German BLOOD” because I don’t think in those terms. I think of their German heritage as a cultural legacy — a sense of intellectual rigor and discipline that forms the basis of moral character; honor, integrity, industriousness, heightened aesthetic sensibility, commitment to creativity and productivity as an essential human way of being; a somewhat conservative perspective on sexual matters.”
Honestly, the idea that your children inherited “German views and character traits” sounds just as odd to me as the idea of “German blood”.
“I’ve begun to seriously question whether I want to continue to be American, the place where I and my children were born. I am not proud of what my culture and country have become.”
Some Germans would probably reply, “What culture? The USA has no culture.” Anyway, I understand what you mean. In some respects, I am ashamed of my country as well, e.g. the participation in the Afghanistan war, the lack of equal rights for LGB people. This stuff happens in my name without my approval. Then I tell myself that I didn’t choose my nationality. I was born with it. Also, I can try to improve my country, e.g. by voting for the party that wants to abolish the military and give LGB people equal rights. If you don’t vote, you have no right to complain. I don’t think that giving up your country is a particularly good idea unless, of course, it’s a totally hopeless case.
“Are you passing that cross on to your children?”
I made it perfectly clear to my son that if he was not a fully-functioning member of the Jewish community, he would not receive a farthing in my will. And just to make sure he is sincere, and not just faking, I didn’t circumcise him. I just gave him an Ex-acto knife, an alcohol pad, and left instructions for the trustees to administer a medical examination. We’ll have no Jewish posers in this house! Gettin brissed when you’re an infant and can’t do anything about it, well, let’s just say that not my idea of fulfilling a covenant. That doesn’t rate as “informed consent” in my book. And I spoke quite firmly to him, half-man to man (he hasn’t done it yet) when I found a ampule of Lidocaine in his desk drawer. No cheating!
“there are Halachic ways for a Jew to opt out of the Jewish community.”
That’s right! I’m sick of those people who claim they are not of the Jewish community anymore, but won’t stop the monthly checks all Jews get, and still avail themselves of Jewish community land, jobs, and investment opportunities!
“I think of their German heritage as a cultural legacy — a sense of intellectual rigor and discipline that forms the basis of moral character; honor, integrity, industriousness, heightened aesthetic sensibility, commitment to creativity and productivity as an essential human way of being; a somewhat conservative perspective on sexual matters.”
Thanks for that. I never really understood how the Nazis could have gained such complete power so fast in Germany, but now I do. After all with the excellent German qualities you describe , who could stand in their way?
“Muppets don’t have teeth.”
Except for Dr. Teeth from the band, “Dr. Teeth and the Electric Mayhem”!!!
Well Klaus, if you’ve got a cross to bear, why not put it around your neck and let it swing back and forth, that’s what I say.
“That’s also Mooser’s fate, he complains about the club but can’t resign.”
Why would I want to? Can you give me a reason why I would not want to be Jewish, Klaus? Please tell me about it, and while you’re shooting your useless mouth off, please give one example, just one, of any time I said I did not want to be Jewish.
Maybe I don’t “resign” being Jewish, because that’s what I want to be, as incredible as that may seem to your well-ordered Teutonic mind.
Besides, they marked me for their own before I had a chance to protest.
because that’s what I want to be
go mooser! i like you just the way you are.
“a somewhat conservative perspective on sexual matters.”
Well, if that’s what you want to call an inherited shortage of sex drive, I suppose it’s kinder. But from what I’ve heard…..
“go mooser! i like you just the way you are.”
Maybe you do, but so does Billy Joel, and he’s rich and famous! Sorry, Annie, but I’ve got to think of my old age and making myself secure. Oh well, as one hole in the wall said to the other: “We’ll always have plaster of Paris.”
- “I made it perfectly clear to my son … no Jewish posers in this house!” – M.
I did the same thing with my daughter: no posing as ‘natural aristocrat’.
“I am not proud of what my culture and country have become.”
I’m so glad I don’t have that problem. I’m such a miserable, second rate human being that I do just fine here. I don’t want to live in a country that makes me ashamed of my own shortcomings. Besides, pride is a sin. The less you got, the better. An overwhelming sense of shame and disgust with yourself is the only way to go. See, that way, any place I hang my head is home.
>> An individual Jew can do whatever he likes
>> though you can’t undo you upbringing
Bullshit. Pure, unadulterated bullshit. An individual Jew can choose to stop being a Jew any time he wants. There’s no magic or mysticism involved. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I’m first-generation Canadian of Croatian and Italian upbringing, and indoctrinated into Roman Catholicism. I can damned well “undo my upbringing”…and I did. I don’t identify as either Croatian or Italian, because I’m neither, but as Canadian, because that’s who and what I am. And I abandoned the foolishness of religion and faith years ago, too.
No matter how self-important you wish to feel about it, “Jewish” isn’t so special that it can’t be “undone”.
- “Why would I want to?” [resign from the Jewish club] – Mooser
———————————————————————————————–
Because you constantly complain about it!
As Elliot explained (I hope you are not questionig his authority):
“There are Halachic ways for a Jew to opt out of the Jewish community.”
But I think it’s okay with the Jewish family to keep a black sheep/moose.
“Is it? Isn’t it more a follow up to “remember the Amalek”?
You are so right, Klaus. Only a morally degraded mongrel race would survive Hitler’s death camps and not use it as a chance for self-improvement, the way Germany used their defeat in WW1.
“Because you constantly complain about it!”
So what it all comes down to is that you are, I’m sorry to say, a liar. I asked you to provide an example of this, and you can’t so you just keep on insisting that it’s so. That’s called (in the US, anyway) lying.
What you are saying, Klaus, is that I shouldn’t be a Jew if I don’t fit your particular conception of what a Jew is. Coming from a Jew, that’s one thing.
Coming from you, it’s monstrous. After all, if you don’t like the way Jews conduct themselves, I’m sure you know exactly what the final solution should be.
“I did the same thing with my daughter: no posing as ‘natural aristocrat’.”
Klaus, if anyone says you are one degree under the 90, you refer them to me, and I’ll tell ‘em just how sharp you are!
“No matter how self-important you wish to feel about it, “Jewish” isn’t so special that it can’t be “undone”.”
Absolutely!
On the Amalek
————————
You didn’t get my point Mooser, you said:
- “Zionists adopt one of the dehumanising concepts of anti-Semitism.”
- “For a … people like us Jews, that is … a repudiation of our history.”
—————————————————————————————————
I said: “remember the Amalek”
Aren’t the Zionists adopting a “dehumanising concept” of Jewish history?
I’m glad I was alone when I clicked on that link.
Anyway, this is all too serious, and we’ve gone (mea-culpa as usual, of course) way off the subject, so let’s have a joke and get back on thread! Ho-Kay:
Q) What do you get when you marry some kind of perverted social Darwinism to anti-Semitism?
A) The idea that the Holocaust should have left the Jewish survivors with an enhanced sense of justice, and a universal humanitarian outlook!
Or do we now open the discussion on exactly how (besides fortuitous timing) someone gets to survive the camps? I know, maybe the gaurds recognised their burgeoning moral improvement and spared them from execution. I mean, why deny the Holocaust when you can just trivialise it down to a useful size?
- “The Holocaust should have left the Jewish survivors with an enhanced sense of justice, and a universal humanitarian outlook!” – Mooser
——————————————————————————————————
Some survivors did. But as I have said above (and there was no irony involved):
It’s nonsense to approach Jews after the Holocaust with a sense of awe as if the Holoaust had bestowed a higher morality on them. I’m with you on that count.
“What do you get when you marry some kind of perverted social Darwinism to anti-Semitism? – The idea that the Holocaust should have left the Jewish survivors with an enhanced sense of justice”
So, you call me an anti-Semite!? Now you’ve gone too far. I’m out of here.
Besides, I wasn’t talking about the survivors, but rather about their descendants.
Anti-Semite?
Don’t lose your cool Lefty. Mooser is – like you – a great pacifist and peacenik. At heart he is a Christian; actually I think a Quaker.