The other night at dinner in Manhattan, a realist friend said to me, “Things are changing. When I tell people we’ve handed over our foreign policy to a fascist foreign country, they don’t look at me like a lunatic, they consider the idea and even agree somewhat.”
The next day in Brooklyn, I asked an anti-Zionist friend whether it is possible to rebrand Israel as a fascist country. He considered the idea and nodded.
“Right now in New York you get overwhelming majorities of people in polls saying that they disapprove of the stop-and-frisk tactics [which target minority youth]. A lot of what goes on in the Occupied Territories is worse than that police conduct. So I think, potentially, Yes.”
I told him that the day before my mother sent me this MoveOn.org petition to sign, to “block the racist Florida voter purge.”
This year, Florida Governor Rick Scott has challenged more than 180,000 voters–more than half of whom are Latino–by accusing them of not being citizens. … Attorney General Eric Holder… has the authority to sue the state and block the purge program because of how it harms Latino voters.
By the same standard, I could argue that Israel is enacting racist and apartheid policies not just in Palestine but all over Israel.
On the train home from the city, I met an old friend, a hardboiled capitalist, and asked him about rebranding Israel as fascist.
He said, “Well I do wonder about the disappearance of the Israeli left from the political sphere. If you vote in Israel now, there’s just one party. They’ve solidified. You don’t have a choice. And wasn’t that the criticism we always had of dictatorships? There was no choice. So in my view, Israel is just another middle eastern authoritarian state.”
When I got home, I asked my old friend and political guru James North the question. He said, “The answer is yes, and you should reread the post I did on this subject two years ago.”
I did. It was a review of Robert O. Paxton’s book, The Anatomy of Fascism. North wrote:
Toward the end of the book, Paxton looks at the possibility of fascism in “Other Times, Other Places” outside its peak in Europe between the two World Wars. Among several examples, he says that “. . . one must address the potential – supreme irony – for fascism in Israel.”
“The suicide bombings of the second intifada after 2001 radicalized even many Israeli democrats to the right. By 2002, it was possibly to hear language within the right wing of the Likud Party and some of the small religious parties that comes close to a functional equivalent to fascism. The chosen people begins to sound like a Master Race that claims a unique ‘mission in the world,’ demands its ‘vital space,’ demonizes an enemy that obstructs the realization of the people’s destiny, and accepts the necessity of force to obtain these ends.”
North concluded:
The Western mainstream devotes a great deal of time and energy to every Islamic extremist statement, and the word “Islamofascism” has even been used by an American president. But their Israeli extremist equivalents, who have only gotten louder and more powerful since Paxton’s book appeared, hardly ever appear in U.S. news reports. The unstated assumption is that the “Israelo-fascists” like Avigdor Lieberman are only crazy uncles hidden up in the attic, not worth paying attention to.
That was two years ago. The picture hasn’t gotten any prettier since.
did i miss something? hasn’t the US turned into a fascist country that has been israelified? a president running death squads, assassinating american citizens, bombing countries with which we are not at war, repressing dissent, surveilling the populace?
the only dissent i see is on the blogs. the mainstream media serves up propagandistic confections. at least in the old USSR most russian people knew that they were being lied to; americans don’t.
Zionism has been Likudized and America has been Zionized. When Benjamin Netanyahu, Haim Saban, Sheldon Adelson and AIPAC ask American political leaders to jump, they ask how high.
The American Founding Visionaries must be rolling over in their graves. Religious extremists in the occupied territories (who are indeed fascists) are dragging the entire American government (and the entire American people) behind them over the cliff.
Many Americans understand that the situation is disastrous but they seem powerless to affect events.
Regarding the reporting of political reality: a gigantic unbridgeable gap has opened up between the American mainstream media and the Internet — the two worlds barely connect at this point. ABC, CBS, CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, NBC, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post are largely propaganda arms of the Israeli government.
Tail wags * tail wags * tail wags * * * dog.
Settlers wag Likud wags Israel/AIPAC wags USA wags UN, EU, etc.
[Upchuck.]
You forgot PBS. And BTW, American politicians don’t ask “how high?” They instinctively jump as high as they can…
It’s all a big Jewish conspiracy.
+1 geofray, +1!!!
[Expletive deleted] First falafel, and now fascism is an Israeli invention? And being fabulous is invented by Israeli in California?
Fascism is a complex phenomenon. To me, Plato is the intellectual father of fascism, which explains the deep regard that Straussians have for Plato. Americans have a native tradition which is somewhat similar to fascism, although different in many important aspects.
I would call it antebellism because it was fully formulated and practiced in the ante bellum South. Key ingredients:
1. democratic forms, free elections etc.
2. citizens have the right, nay, necessity! to be armed
3. distrust of political power
4. deference to the rich
5. violent intolerance of subversive thought (then, abolitionism)
6. repression of minorities, draconian laws
7. freedom, civilization, purity etc.
We were discussing Rep. Joe Walsh whom I would call a typical ante bellist, and who quite typically was VERY supportive of Israel without betraying any understanding what is going on. Basically, Walsh absorbed some very sketchy description of the situation in Israel and promptly decided that it fits to his antebellist image of what is good and what is bad.
” The picture hasn’t gotten any prettier since”
They just can’t help themselves, can they ?
Every year that passes intensifies the drift to wards the darkness in Israel. Back in 2000 who expected Israel to bomb Gaza with white phosphorous? Who in 2010 would have said that the Government wouldn’t even be able to clear an outpost like”Ulpana” or that videos of Jews shouting “Death to the Arabs” would go viral?
Nobody ever stopped them when it was important. Now it is too late. Israel has managed to buy off all meaningful dissent with economic growth that is in part driven by the dispossession capitalism that defines the occupation.
Markus Haefliger in the NZZ “die Finanzkrise hat uns gezeigt wie rasch das scheinbar Undenkbar eintreten kann”
The Financial Crisis has shown us how quickly what (previously) appeared to be unthinkable can occur.
“Back in 2000 who expected Israel to bomb Gaza with white phosphorous? Who in 2010 would have said that the Government wouldn’t even be able to clear an outpost like”Ulpana” or that videos of Jews shouting “Death to the Arabs” would go viral?”
Anyone with eyes to see, who had even a passing acquaintance with Zionist doctrine and its century of practice. If not stopped, generalized war and genocide are also programmed in the nature of the beast.
Hmm, I disagree(not on moral principles but on practical ones).
Here’s why:
1. Israel has an armada of PR. The most effective attack on Israel isn’t the full frontal attack but rather the slow, poisonous venom that is seeping into the discourse, asking uncomfortable questions if the nation really do ‘share our values’ whenever there is an incident(like the recent bloodthirsty pogroms against undocumented migrants from Africa). However, whenever the heat gets turned up, the response is massive. Remember Mayor Bloomberg’s attack and all the NYC candidates for election the coming year? Israel is still more mainstream.
2.
Face it. The alternative matters. Whatever we can say about the Arab world in general, we cannot say it has a good PR reputation. And for good reason. According to the UN even Sub-Saharan Africa grans more rights to women on average than the Arab world. In fact, of all the major regions in the world, the Arab world is most medieval on this issue of all the major regions of the world.
Or as a piece recently on +972 put it: “better pinkwashing than pinkstoning”.
Fatah is a collaborationist regime, which all of you know. So even if they are moderate to a fault, they are non-democratic. And Hamas and/or somekind of islamist coalition would probably do very well in a hypothetical election. And one thing liberals often do is constantly overestimate the soothing siren song of islamists to Western ears. Hamas cannot be defended and is by a longshot worse than the Israeli alternative(and that’s saying quite a bit).
This leaves liberals in a bind. While Hamas and assorted parties are a nightmare, Fatah is a collaborationist regime, surely the alternative cannot be to support the status quo? And add to this the, by now, very well-run islamophobic machine, which Hollywood has greased, which will be rolled out every single time it’s time to smear the Israeli opposition. And you know what, the reason why that campaign is so effective isn’t merely because of cash, although it helps. The reason is that there is simply a lot to attack. The Palestinian people may be suffering, but they are not by and large liberals. Just like the Egyptian people were suffering under oppression but held deeply misogynic, homophobic and anti-Semitic views(as well as a deep-seated hostility to Christianity).
So what gives? Until a truly appealing opposition emerges in the broader swathes of society(I think Dr. Barghouti would be a good candidate, but 15 % isn’t 55 %), Israel and it’s defenders will credibly be able to point to the other side and say “oh really? And what about those?”. The left’s silence and/or even defence(!) of these islamists will be met with scorn, as well as it should be.
3.
Therefore I think that the process will take time, and it will also depend on the Pals getting their act together politically. There are already many unsung heroes but they are disconnected and disjointed. Even Khader Adnan(spelling?), the hunger striker was a member of the Islamic Jihad which is a deeply homophobic(like: let’s stone gays! kind of homophobia), anti-women and in many ways even anti-Semitic organization.
Again, liberals are in a bind. Defend the indefensible on the Israeli side or on the Palestinian side? We all know that the moral case rests with the oppressed but once people ask the inevitable questions such as “okay, but what then?”, then it’ll be harder. People didn’t ask those questions in Egypt that much, in part because it went so fast and there wasn’t much skin in the game for Western elites. When it comes to the Jewish state, no such luck. Fair or not, the onus will be on the Palestinians to come with an alternative that can’t be credibly smeared and as much as some liberals will scream bloody murder, defending Islamists or collaborationist regimes isn’t going to work in the long run.
4. Therefore I think we won’t have a “re-branding of Israel” into something you describe. Rather, I think, unless there is a lot of pressure, Israel won’t be viewed in a favorable light but most people will just ignore the area and think of Israel “as no better or worse than any other”. Under such circumstances, when people will laugh at those who try to glorify Israel but also ignore those who keep pushing for boycott/action, what you will have is a behaviour of benign neglect. Give Israel what it wants, but not anything crazy. Whatever they do with the Arabs isn’t our concern.
That could probably go on for quite some time. And the only thing that can change that is first and foremost a viable, strong (40 %+ liberal vote, at least) alternative and much more pressure from activists abroad.
Ultimately, I think Israel, if staying on the current path, will be faced with impossible odds but I also think they could, in an area of benign neglect, continue on the status quo for a very long time indeed unless those two conditions are met and I don’t see anything on the horizon soon. True, a lot have happened in the past 5 years but that was also mostly low-hanging fruit. The discourse on Israel was beyond ridicule just a few years ago, and to some extent is even today, but now the debate is a little more measured. It will be much harder to go from “yes Israel has problems” to “Israel is an international pariah who control our congress(on Israel/Palestine issues) via AIPAC”. That later meme has picked up but is so long only background noise. To truly get it into mainstream will be much harder than the last 5 years of just changing a debate which had tons of flaws in it.
Krauss
Israel promised the world a Palestinian state in 1991. My aunt thinks there is going to be a Palestinian state. Most people who follow the news do. They are all going to get a land.
I can’t see Israel controlling the narrative for much longer. Why won’t they grant that state? People aren’t going to buy all that crap about the civilisations for much longer. Especially in Europe.
Israel is run by slimeballs.All the diplomats in europe know it. Another 5 years drive into the darkness and let’s see how Israel registers on those surveys of international approval. I think Judaism is WAY out of its depth on Israel and that it is only a matter of time before Israel becomes unmanageable.
seafoid, I think most people just don’t care. Even those who follow the news. All they see is Jews and Arabs at each other’s throats. They don’t have the detailed knowledge you and I have. Besides, the MSM never delves deep into the occupation to begin with. So most people aren’t probably aware of the encroaching annextion. They most likely just see an eternal dispute going on with a few words flying here and there.
This doesn’t mean that I think that Israel can just go on, forever. I don’t. But I do think that the process of getting there will be longer than most think unless the Palestinians do a dramatic turnaround. Still, there are signs of this awakening. Most of Palestinian civil society now rejects violence, which is a big bonus. But much must still be done. You need a clear civil rights movement, and as long as Hamas remains a big piece of the puzzle, it will be very easy for the other side to smear(and rightly so), hence the delay.
I do think that the process of getting there will be longer than most think unless the Palestinians do a dramatic turnaround.
this implies there is a ‘process’ that is hung up because of palestinians. do you really think if they do a ‘dramatic turnaround’ israel will acquiesce and things will become loverly?
you didn’t address seafoid’s question. Why won’t they grant that state? it is as if you think they would if not for…palestinians. aren’t you paying attention? they purposely create fitna and guarantee a constant tension and use that tension as a pretense for not making peace. and here you are agreeing with them.
saying things like “poisonous venom that is seeping into the discourse” implies we, and palestinians, are poisonous snakes. what we do is expose and shed light on a situation. facilitate truth to rise to the surfae and become apparent. that is not poisonous venom, it is mana from heaven and it has the power to set people free and break bondage.
@Krauss Hamas has offered and/or enforced truces with Israel that ended (mostly) rocket attacks. Israel rejected all of that, with horrific results in Cast Lead. Israel blockades Gaza and causes birth defects in Gazan kids. I could go on at extreme length.
Advocacy on this issue is absolutely NOT about comparative base morality or some problem for Palestinian supporters on those grounds. Certainly no one here would want to live under a Hamas government in all its manifestations, but there is zero comparison between the level of what Israel does to Palestinians, morally, and Hamas!!! as a counter. So it’s about something else.
The something else is the portrayal of the morality to the broad public, and maybe more importantly, the ability to portray that skewed version of morality to the broad public.
The dilemma you describe is not a moral issue, it’s a PR issue. You’re buying into the PR.
I tried living on brackish water for just one day to try to understand what the people of Gaza endure. Try it. Believe me the real (and I understand that real is what is made of it) focal point of this issue not about Hamas, it’s about live and let live morality, birth defects, white phosphorous, and the desire to live a normal life.
Never forget that, despite how far removed you are from this conflict (and I respect your insights here). Focus, and help others to focus, on the real issues.
Krauss
“I think most people just don’t care. Even those who follow the news.”
I used to think the same but the collapse of the News of the World in the UK after it was found to have hacked the phone of a dead teenager made me think again. What was the big deal about hacking into another phone ? It was the catalyst for a wave of revulsion.
Israel is going to lose control of the story. It’s the same as Murdoch. Too much power for too long.
In 1988 Ishayahu Leibowitz wrote: “If the status-quo continues (and the keyword is “if”), hooliganization – or perhaps we ought to say Nazification – of the people and society in Israel – will be inevitable
The status quo of how goys see Israel must change since Israel itself is no longer stable.
“But I do think that the process of getting there will be longer than most think unless the Palestinians do a dramatic turnaround”
Again? The Palestinians have tried everything. Israel has tried NOTHING! Made no concessions what so ever. NONE. NIL. Everything BUT the steps necessary for a peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians.
Instead the Jewish State has taken more and more, demanded more and more, including demands without any legal basis what so ever. Continuing to dispossess, illegally settle, illegally annex, illegally instituting Israeli civil law in non-Israeli territories. Ignoring hundreds of UNSC resolutions.
The Palestinians have offered to forgo their right to territories outside the State of Israel, acquired by war by 1949. Offered to GIVE Israel 50% of the Palestinians rightful territories, to the ’67 Armistice Demarcation Lines. Israel wants more.
The ONLY thing saving Israel from the full effects of the Laws it is obliged to uphold, is the US veto vote in the UNSC and that is what needs do “a dramatic turnaround”.
Krauss June 17, 2012 at 5:26 pm
“as long as Hamas remains a big piece of the puzzle …. You need a clear civil rights movement, and as long as Hamas remains a big piece of the puzzle, it will be very easy for the other side to smear(and rightly so), hence the delay.”
Hamas was a legally, democratically elected government to territories under the occupation of Israel. Any Government of an occupied territory will very likely be harsh out of necessity in order to resist the Occupying Power and prevent collaboration. Throughout history there are plenty of examples of similar behaviour by the occupied.
E.g., Jewish forces resisted the British, resorted to terrorism, executed traitors, killed innocent Jews working in the King David Hotel. On achieving statehood, Jewish terrorists became Israeli politicians, leaders.
” it will be very easy for the other side to smear(and rightly so), hence the delay”
LOL The other side smears automatically ANYONE who gets in the way of a Greater Israel. They don’t give a F^&K! In recent a joint press conference at the White House, Netanyahu immediately turned around after Obama had spoken and told the most outrageous and blatant lies, completely ignoring what Obama had said, even changing Obama’s words. In effect spitting in the US President’s face. If Obama had any gumption he’d have corrected him on the spot. He didn’t, because the US senate ultimately controls the President and the Senate is in the Zionist’s pocket
“the delay” is Israel’s. Always has been. Despite the two British White Papers explaining the Balfour declaration, the Zionists kept on inserting ‘State’ and; despite the Zionist Federation agreeing that it would have no part in the governing of Palestine, they were putting in place the structures for governing the ‘state’ they were never promised.
Israel has delayed the adoption of UNSC resolutions by quibbling over words that have no effect on the final meaning (the & all). It keeps every legal argument going because as long as the matter isn’t finalized there is no resolution or judgement. When there is finally a resolution or judgement, Israel ignores it.
The Jewish State was recognized, with terrorists as leaders, recognized and accepted into the UN whilst Israeli forces were outside of Israel, engaged in a war over territories it was determined to keep, “outside the State of Israel”. After being accepted into the UN Israel immediately claimed territories under occupation and openly threatened to ignore the UN Charter. It has since carried out that threat, disrespecting the Sovereign territory of its neighbouring states.
Hamas is not the problem, it’s a reaction to 64 years of Israeli lawlessness.
‘ “But I do think that the process of getting there will be longer than most think unless the Palestinians do a dramatic turnaround”
Again? The Palestinians have tried everything. Israel has tried NOTHING!…’
Maybe the author means the Palestinians will just get fed up and kill their tormentors.
‘The Palestinians have offered to forgo their right to territories outside the State of Israel, acquired by war by 1949. Offered to GIVE Israel 50% of the Palestinians rightful territories, to the ’67 Armistice Demarcation Lines. Israel wants more.’
Israel will always want more. It always has. It has invariably seized all the territory it can — and only relinquished it under duress. There is not one example of voluntary self-restraint on the part of Israel. Once they start assuming they’ve got the West Bank, they start talking about Southern Lebanon and the fertile bits of Jordan (they all become part of ‘Biblical Israel’ too). At the moment, some are raving about ‘taking back the Sinai.’
I believe I already pointed it out elsewhere, but Israel is the only state in modern history that has invaded every single one of its neighbors. Even Nazi Germany managed to keep its paws off Switzerland — and Stalin never did actually invade Turkey. Israel is truly unique. It’s compulsively aggressive and acquisitive. I doubt if it could ever be appeased.
Zionism is a form of militaristic autism. Lebanon never deserved it.
To date the hasbara has kept things under control but the mask is slipping and when it falls off Israel is going to have a lot of explaining to do.
It’s when Israel becomes a full on liability and a cause of shame to regular Jews that we’ll see things changing .
Lenny Bruce had a very good routine about the clap. Zionism has to get to the stage where it is more embarrassing than the clap for things to happen. But progress is encouraging.
The United States has invaded Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and the Dominican Republic, among others. I suppose Bermuda and the Bahamas may count as neighbors we have never invaded.
Islamist are a bunch of “misogynist,antisemite,antidemocratic” forces.so is Muslim Brotherhood and Salafist/Wahabist run Saudi Regime. But when you go to a garden and destroy the saplings of Roses and Daffodils and leave the area to sell your own Roses and Daffodils and the smell that come with it, what do you get? you get weed.
This si not the first time that is has been done. British did that to undivided India, to young Turks of Ottoman, US to emerging democratic ideas in Iraq ( 1956) and Iran ( 1954) and now that to dictator-run Libya. Pakistan has gone through same.Zia Ul haq would have remained a pariah but for the largesse of US who destroyed Afghanistan to destroy USSR, he contributed to Sikhs revolt in India,and islamization of Kashmiri struggle,shia-sunni violence,radicalization of younger generation and anti Hindu and anti Christain violence and later to emergence of communal forces like RSS in Indian politics that culminated in Gujrata massacre in 2000
If tomorrow some unseen forces take over US and eliminate all institutions save the Opus Dei,and Evangelics , one will face emergence of same dark theosophies that unify the Salafist and Whabist.
traintosiberia,
That’s a good point, as well. Thanks.
“And you know what, the reason why that campaign is so effective isn’t merely because of cash, although it helps. The reason is that there is simply a lot to attack. The Palestinian people may be suffering, but they are not by and large liberals.”
Cue Frantz Fanon, from The Wretched of the Earth (1961):
“Western bourgeois racial prejudice as regards the nigger and the Arab is a racism of contempt; it is a racism which minimizes what it hates. Bourgeois ideology, however, which is the proclamation of an essential equality between men, manages to appear logical in its own eyes by inviting the sub-men to become human, and to take as their prototype Western humanity as incarnated in the Western bourgeoisie.”
Now my turn:
Your discourse displays the standard Western liberal fallacy of proclaiming deep concern for people as abstractions, while ignoring them as actual people. The great majority of Palestinian women in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, who by all accounts voted disproportionately and overwhelmingly for Hamas, certainly must have thought it had something going for it.
And this rhetorical trick of yours, where you carry on as if the awfulness of Hamas were obvious to everyone, while never explaining what it is? Not too impressive!
But, you know what? If Western liberals find Palestinian society too illiberal for their tastes, their most obvious choice is to stay away from Palestine. How about that? As Lennon sang, “It isn’t hard to do.” And whatever else you think of Hamas, they’ve always made it perfectly clear that their mandate begins and ends entirely within Palestine’s historic borders.
But you got to hand it to Krauss from Geoghmany, he is after all an armchair expert on Palestinian society.
joec,
I salute your eloquent and tempered response in the face of such ignorant ugly barbarism that disguises itself as European liberalism.
avi, i second that. thank you joe.
The great majority of Palestinian women in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, who by all accounts voted disproportionately and overwhelmingly for Hamas, certainly must have thought it had something going for it.
i’ve met a lot of hamas women. very strong and impressive indeed. anyone who thinks otherwise has been drinking kool aide. it’s the women who are the organizers, they are the ones who brought in the vote and for a very logical reason too. hamas has female MP’s who are not window dressing. palestinian women are some of the most impressive women in the world, and many are hamas members. many are very outspoken. tough. contrary to krauss’s crass ‘medieval’ statement. and then he talks about bad PR when he’s pushing it. palestinian women are not ‘medieval’, they are politically astute while living in unconscionable conditions imposed on them by israel, supported by the US government.
as always, i recommend helena cobban:
link to justworldnews.org
here is Conflicts Forum (pdf) link to conflictsforum.org
this is essential information: Islamist Women’s Activism in Occupied Palestine Interviews with Palestinian Islamist Women Leaders on Women’s Activism in Hamas Interviews by Khaled Amayreh February 2010
helena cobban: Sisterhood of Hamas
link to salon.com
“The great majority of Palestinian women in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, who by all accounts voted disproportionately and overwhelmingly for Hamas, certainly must have thought it had something going for it.”
Really? Hamas only got 44% of the vote, and only 3/4′s of eligible Palestinians voted. (This is called a ‘plurality’, which means ‘largest minority.’) So perhaps a third of women voters put in a Hamas ballot. I wonder which part of your argument falls apart?
link to en.wikipedia.org
But on the bright side, good to see you prioritize the actual votes and opinions of Palestinians living under occupation, who have repeatedly cast their votes overwhelmingly for Fatah and Hamas, neither of which want to live in the same polity as Israeli Jews. A position that makes perfect sense. Let’s respect that for a while.
That said, perhaps we can find common ground in a little guarded optimism about Egypt. A Brotherhood president ratchets up the pressure on Israel and might make life better for Gazans.
Krauss-
“According to the UN even Sub-Saharan Africa grans more rights to women on average than the Arab world.”
There are many cultural traditions outside the liberal Western sphere that are unacceptable and immoral to us Westerners, just as there are Western cultural norms that are viewed with disdain in the developing world, including the Arab world. Here in America our emphasis on the all important ‘individual’ has shredded the fabric of civil society and traditional ‘family values’ in ways that are unacceptable and immoral in the eyes of those in the developing world. How many Arab children would push their parents through the doors of a nursing home to spend their last days in the care and company of strangers? This concept is incomprehensible to 3/5ths of the world and not just because they don’t have the wealth to make nursing homes feasible.
“Hamas cannot be defended and is by a longshot worse than the Israeli alternative(and that’s saying quite a bit).”
Really? I’ve not heard Hamas threaten to invade Lebbanon, Syria, Jordan or Egypt. I haven’t heard them threaten to bomb Pakistan, Lebbanon, Iraq, Iran or Tunisia. I’ve not heard them threaten to steal US defense secrets and sell them to the Soviets, or to attack a US Navy ship or a US Embassy. I’ve not heard of a clandestine, Hamas controlled nuclear arsenal…
‘There are many cultural traditions outside the liberal Western sphere that are unacceptable and immoral to us Westerners, just as there are Western cultural norms that are viewed with disdain in the developing world, including the Arab world. ‘
More importantly, we tend to find most of those traditions regrettable — but hardly grounds for open war. Radical clitorectomy in subsaharan Africa, the sort of conformity expected in Japan, pervasive corruption in India, dog restaurants in Korea — tut tut, basically.
It’s trading cause and effect to see our hostility towards the Arab world as a consequence of revulsion at their cultural practices. The pretended outrage at their religiosity, at the position of women, etc — this stems from our antagonism, not the other way around.
Else we would be half-way through the conquest of India or some other at least equally alien culture. It’s got nothing to do with any objection to Arab culture per se. First is the desire to hate, then the justifications are sought. Whatever the Arabs did, we would find them objectionable. If they had all given up on Islam five hundred years ago, we’d be professing abhorrence for their Godlessness.
Excellent points Krauss. Hard truths to accept concerning Islamist Palestinian factions like Hamas but ‘it is what it is’.
Your concept of ‘benign neglect’ is exactly on point and something I see happening and expressed by the ‘average American’.
They may recognize Israel as a negative but simultaneously cannot lend support to Islamist groups just yet without the proper contextual arguments given by their liberal and progressive supporters here in the West. BTW – those supporters barely exist! (paging the phony Rachel Maddow)
The occasional Jon Stewart sketch ain’t gona cut it. The occasional ANYTHING isn’t. Hence, to reach an audience that has beene bombarded with Israeli/Zionist b.s. for decades about not just Palestinians, but Arabs and Muslims in general (with the usual overlap of our own conception of ‘the Other’), we need a change in the discourse from key players from the mainstream.
That will take a long time but even then, they can’t literally change the fact that Hamas is Hamas. I mean we know that Hamas is not Al Qaeda but we are talking about Joe America here too. It’s a game. The Zionists see it that way and spends lots of money on their bullshit seminars and industry of rebranding and blah blah, wherein young Jews get brainwashed (willingly) to become better salesmen of gift-wrapped Zionist turdsicles.
‘They may recognize Israel as a negative but simultaneously cannot lend support to Islamist groups just yet ‘
We don’t need to lend support to Islamist groups. I don’t expect Hindus in India to lend support to my right to have a steak dinner.
We need to quit supporting Israel, let the Palestinians reclaim their homeland, and then let them do more or less whatever they like with their lives.
Israel essentially exists on the life support of our financial and diplomatic backing. All we need to do is pull the plug. It’ll be gone soon enough.
‘Excellent points Krauss. Hard truths to accept concerning Islamist Palestinian factions like Hamas but ‘it is what it is’.’
? Krauss did not make a single specific statement concerning Hamas.
He just said it was bad, basically. Never said why. How is that a ‘hard truth’?
Nature of the political parties or of ideologies did not prevent US/West/Nicholas Kristoff/Clooney/BHL to promote and realize independence of South Sudan or of entire Libya.
EXACTLY.
I haven’t looked into it, but given that there seem to be quite a few tribes, there are presumably all sorts of things practiced here and there in South Sudan that I wouldn’t want going on in my home.
But WE DON’T CARE. Nor should we.
This professed objection to Arab culture is a sham. The fact of the matter is that we want to hate them, and so we seek reasons. It really is irrelevant what ‘Arabs’ may or may not do (I doubt if they’re a monolithic collective). Whatever they did, we’d find something to hate.
‘In fact, of all the major regions in the world, the Arab world is most medieval on this issue of all the major regions of the world. ‘
And of course if people are ‘medieval,’ we needn’t respect their rights.
This is why I tend to run over pedestrians when I’m in Oklahoma. Since they’re hicks, they don’t have rights.
I don’t agree with your characterization of the ‘the Arab world,’ (nor with the implicit assumption that ours is going to turn out to be a better model) but its pros and cons are really irrelevant — and I will point out that you’re confusing cause and effect.
We didn’t become hostile to the Arab world because we found it repellant. We decided it was repellant because we became hostile to it.
However superficial and romanticized, the traditional view of ‘the Arab world’ was reasonably friendly. ‘The Talisman,’ Rudolf Valentino, and ‘Lawrence of Arabia’ come to mind.
Then AIPAC et al got to work, and (largely on behalf of Israel) we’ve experienced a methodical demonization of the Arab world over the last fifty years. There is now an unspoken but pervasive assumption now that given half a chance, Arabs will slaughter everyone in sight, rape the children of both genders, and carry off any survivors to inflict unspeakable bestialities on them at their leisure. It’s absurd.
‘Again, liberals are in a bind. Defend the indefensible on the Israeli side or on the Palestinian side?’
I’m not in a bind. I haven’t the least intention of giving the Palestinians three billion a year in military aid, allowing them to rifle through our files, or reflexively supporting every outrage they choose to commit. I CERTAINLY won’t arrange for it to be tax deductible to help them build houses on any land they might manage to seize from adjacent states — and no, Americans won’t be able to serve in the Palestinian military. That’s against the Constitution.
I’m all for cutting all ties, refusing to participate in any UN vote on the matter at all, and just letting Israel rely on all its other friends. Once it comes into being, Palestine can do the same.
Both Palestine and Israel can be as indefensible as they please. I’ve no intention of defending either one of them.
There are politicians like Lieberman in many Conservative Parties in Europe, the leaders of these parties usually keep the ‘backwoodsmen’ out of any influence on policy or as North says “hidden up in the attic”. In Israel these types are traversing the globe on hasbara missions.
Israel has Lieberman, Mofaz, Bibi, Zippy, Barak and each one is a sociopath. Lieberman is good for the others because he makes them look normal but Zippy was behind Cast Lead, Barak was defence minister, they have all been in government or in charge of the Israeli Army .
Most countries have decent politicians in the centre. Israel has none.
Well, yes and no. In Israel it isn’t only the foreign minister. Take Eli ‘This country belongs to us, the white man’ Yishai, who’s the interior minister. The list goes on.
But Lieberman’s statements about ‘executing disloyal arabs’ goes far and above anything a populist pol in Europe would ever go beyond. Even Marine Le Pen said that if she said half of what they say in Israel then she would go to jail.
speaking of extremists..sorry to go OT but i read this morning at 972..yossi gurvitz
Ministers and general to honor Rabbi charged with incitement
link to 972mag.com
that would be Dov Lior, the rabbi who endorsed the gentile-slaying manual
The air is so thick with fascism in Israel that you can cut it with a knife. When I was in Israel in January on Sheldon Adelson’s Manifest Destiny bus tour it felt like something wasn’t quite right in the country, but I couldn’t quite put it into words until I got back. The nonchalant attitude towards current events I found in most Israelis was so different it seemed from American Jews. The soldiers carry guns walking down the street before going to the night clubs like that’s somehow normal in Western countries. It seems like Israeli society moves at a different pace than the rest of the world, like it’s in some kind of 19th century time-warp where liberal values haven’t been adopted as there are actually debates as to whether women should sit in the back of the bus at the request of men. Even the smell of the country was wierd, like everything has been eerily sanitized. Almost everyone, minus a few righteous dissenters who write scathing editorials critical of the country in Haartez, live in a state of mass delusion and hallucination as they are oblivious to the unfolding implosion around them.
Wow, what a slamming of Israel.
For what it’s worth, I still think the middle is fairly moderate. They are probably racist in your everyday’s way, but if the left had a strong say in the nation’s affairs, like they do in nations like Sweden, Canada or states like California, then the ‘middle population’ would behave differently and much less racist. The ‘moderate middle’ would perhaps better be named ‘the mallable middle’. Whichever faction dominates gets to sway the middle 60 % or so of the population. You can’t really blame most Jews in Israel. They are pretty clueless and just follow orders. Just like most people in this world.
But yes, it’s a surreal place and an abnormal place. In some ways it may be moving back in time and away from liberalism, and in this sense actually integrating into the region. The left have always called for this and perhaps now it is happening?
Forget left, rich, and middle, Krauss. How about moral?
Such utter nonsense can only be the product of a self-absorbed racist.
Your claims betray the ignorance of which you are so proud. You know nothing about the region and yet you post your garbage as though you’re a fountain of wisdom.
You and Jeffrey Goldberg would certainly hit it off.
So much personal animosity and insults…. you are a piece of work! Is this how change happens? Verbal assault against people you disagree with until… what? People realize that support Palestinian rights is no defense against brutishness?
That said, YMJ is totally correct. I left Israel in part because of what he describes.
clenchy is merely upset because I dared challenge his fabrications on another thread. So his first reaction is passive-aggressive.
Cut the crap already. Your rhetoric may work on the small group of deluded Zionists you hang out with, but this is the real world.
And you still don’t understand the simple difference between FACT and OPINION (re: Krauss’ racist comments).
‘But yes, it’s a surreal place and an abnormal place. In some ways it may be moving back in time and away from liberalism, and in this sense actually integrating into the region. The left have always called for this and perhaps now it is happening?’
I wouldn’t blame it on the region. Israel is ‘moving back in time and away from liberalism’ because the logic of its position demands that it become a Nazi state.
It needs to be recognized that there never has been, and there can’t be a ‘nice’ Israel. To think otherwise is like imagining that you can have a nice steak dinner without hurting the cow.
krauss – read again what YMJ is trying to say. He is right about something not being right in that country, even if he/she is struggling to put their finger on it. To the perceptive visitor it may indeed feel like another universe, but it’s not always clear why or how – just a growing impression that’s hard to shake off. I believe it’s because the entire country – the totality of its Jewish consciousness – has been assuming the airs of a cult that’s strangely out of place, even as a claim is made – over and over – to that very place. or is it really the same? It’s not just politics, or center-right, or people being apathetic, or uninformed. It’s something a lot deeper – one can almost feel a strange pull right from the center of one’s being – back upon itself slowly sinking into a past that’s better left undisturbed.
To the less perceptive or the deliberately uncaring, it just seems like a hustling and bustling middle eastern kind of a place. A bit on the noisy side, somewhat crude, but definitely lively. But to those who can and/or care to listen to the tenor of the place – as a whole – (and every place in the world has a tenor of sorts) there’s that disturbing note, out of tune with some distant beat, like a warning of something about to happen.
I don’t like to visit Israel any longer for many reasons. But the shrillness of that note is a major one. it’s become louder and harder to dismiss over time. until I heard it everywhere, as it sipped into every conversation, haunting the finest of beaches, assuming the power to ruin an otherwise excellent appetite even in the best of eateries.
Worse part of it is, I have now started hearing it from afar, like soon there’ll be no escape. MW makes for good therapy. Hard to know for how long.
-” The soldiers carry guns walking down the street before going to the night clubs like that’s somehow normal in Western countries.” – YoungMassYew
That is exactly the way I experienced it when I was there in Dec. 2002. The normality of a militarized atmosphere. Soldiers with their machine guns walking into a cafe, leaning their guns on the wall and having a coffee next to you.
And what was worse: I was in a charismatic, evangelical church (not Jewish) in Jerusalem and the preaching and the songs were: “We are in a war.” Someone was blowing a shofar and women were throwing themselves on the ground in exstacy – all on behalf of the Holy Land.
I mean, I met other people also – but that made me feel uneasy about Israel.
YoungMassJew June 17, 2012 at 2:22 pm
Even off duty, bikini clad and armed! Bizarre. link to haaretz.com
Your description of the current atmosphere in Greece reminds me of the picture of conditions in French Algeria in the 1950′s presented by Alistair Horne’s book A Savage War of Peace and Bruno Pontecorvo’s movie The Battle of Algiers.
RE: “The suicide bombings of the second intifada after 2001 radicalized even many Israeli democrats to the right. By 2002, it was possibly to hear language within the right wing of the Likud Party and some of the small religious parties that comes close to a functional equivalent to fascism.” ~ James North
AND NOTE WHO ACTUALLY ENGINEERED THIS SHIFT TOWARDS FASCISM (THE LIKUD GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL) -
“The Dogs of War: The Next Intifada”, By Uri Avnery, Counterpunch, 9/03/11
ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to counterpunch.org
I suppose it depends on how long the Jews can convince the world that the Shoah allows them to do whatever they want to the Palestinians.
What would move the process along would be a book written by an observant Jew, with a public profile, who knew the Torah inside out, ideally ex AIPAC or something machine related, that said that Zionism has morphed into a betrayal of all that Judaism stands for.
didn’t beinart do something along those lines?
He hedged it. It would need to be a full departure from the tent ,calling out the rabbis in Israel as hypocrites unworthy of Judaism, perhaps comparing Zionism to Amalek , the sort of book that would split the next Passover seder down the middle and instigate civil war within families . Career destroying but legend defining. Beinart still thinks he can bring them around and that something good will come out at the end.
Seafoid said “written by an observant Jew”. Which is the exact antipode of Beinart, a Zionist (and a somewhat effective defender of Zionism’s crimes against humanity.)
@ Seafoid,
I overheard a conversation in which someone said, “The war’s been over for 65 years now … time to retire it.” I think that person was/is right.
‘Zionism has morphed into a betrayal of all that Judaism stands for.’
Part of the problem here is that Judaism never really did ‘stand for’ anything. Jews just survived. Their identity wasn’t an option. It wasn’t an ideological position. One didn’t decide to become a Jew like one would decide to become a socialist.
Zionism more or less took advantage of a vacuum. And indeed, so often Jews seem to become enamored of Zionism precisely because it lets them ‘stand for’ something as Jews. Almost all other possible ideological identities either exist without reference to Judaism or involve deciding just how much of the Haredi lifestyle to take up. Notice that remarkably few of these ‘Zionists’ actually move to Israel; they just want to be ‘for’ something — and at the same time, have that something relate to their identity as Jews. Zionism lets you be for something AS A JEW — but without having to wear a funny hat. Thinking about it, I suspect that’s a good deal of its appeal.
“that Zionism has morphed into a betrayal of all that Judaism stands for.”
Morphed? Zionism has always been a betrayal of what Judaism allegedly stood for.
Kathleen: you wrote: “Zionism has always been a betrayal of what Judaism allegedly stood for.”
A large number of Jews — Jewish religious Zionists — firmly believe that contemporary Zionism is the logical and authentic expression of ancient Judaism — perhaps they are right? Isn’t Judaism in some of its most important streams a messianic ethnic nationalist (and often violently xenophobic) ideology at the core? Far from betraying Judaism, Jewish religious Zionists may be manifesting its essential character.
Sean,
There is something to Judaism having become nationalistic early on.
The period in which Judaism arose was pluralistic, people worshipped many different Gods. Historians say that the leaders of Judaism imposing on their community the idea of Yahweh as the only God was a way “to untify” for nationalist purposes and have more support and power.
This was the exact opposite of what large kingdoms of the day did, kings could only manage truly large and diverse empires like Egypt’s by allowing their population to worship as they pleased in return for their loyalty.
So the effect was to make adherents and converts of Judaism intolerant of and hostile to worshippers of other Gods.. for the purpose of being some kind of unified power or army that could expand and build a kingdom.
Relgion, as we see, has always been used by some as a unifier for nation or empire bulding.
American,
See Paul Johnson’s “A History of the Jews” for similar analysis concerning important differences in the value systems of Rome and Jerusalem (Israel, Judaism).
Judaism is a messianic ethnic nationalist ideology at its root — that is its most important distinguishing characteristic. One might even argue that Judaism (or Abraham) is the granddaddy of all ethnic nationalist cults. Judaism has always defined itself terms of interminable conflict with “the nations” — with all other ethnic groups — interminable, that is, until Moshiach (the Jewish Messiah) comes along to crush them all and to establish his totalitarian domination over the entire world. That’s the core meme, all dressed up in fancy justified war theory.
Rhetorical question:
What is to be gained by labeling one country as fascist, when all nominally-democratic countries (across the board) are adopting similar fascist tactics within their own borders? To a larger or lesser extent. ie. only as much as is politically expedient.
Fascism or Apartheid only seem such when compared across a backdrop of other non-Apartheid non-fascist countries.
Israeli media, for example, shows its citizens how European countries turn away immigrants in boats, to justify its own actions against immigrants. Or how the US – the greatest democracy on earth – puts up walls and laws to battle Mexican immigration in Arizona.
Fascism is already a more-or-less socially accepted label in Israel to describe Israel. And has been so for a couple of years already. Israeli media and Israeli politicians frequently use this word when discussing politics. As do everyday folk.
It would seem the topic of this post is on whether ‘fascism’ is, or should be, a politically-correct term. That, at least, should be a no-brainer.
@ AST,
Q: Or how the US – the greatest democracy on earth –
R: Thanks for a good laugh. Now, what’s the serious part you were about to divulge in?
So the U.S. has been occupying California and treating all Hispanics there as non-citizens?
Because that is what is happening in the occupied West Bank.
And I didn’t know that African-Americans were second class citizens in the U.S..
But go on, use that tired They all suck routine to defend Israel. Who knows, you might get lucky and manage to convince an amoeba.
Arnon Shwantzinger Too June 17, 2012 at 4:40 pm
“What is to be gained by labeling one country as fascist, when all nominally-democratic countries (across the board) are adopting similar fascist tactics within their own borders?
Many of them doing it to people who’s territory they have illegally acquired by war, illegally annexed and are illegally settling and who they have occupied for 64 years?
Israel’s separation wall keeps Palestinians out of THEIR OWN territory, not Israeli territory.
When you’ve bet the house on PR getting you out of jail free…
But Eric Cantona and FIFA are calling you out as human-rights abusers link to 972mag.com
Someone has f**ked up somewhere ;)
Paxton’s comment (he is America’s foremost expert on fascism, and almost universally respected as a prudent scholar, and no knee-jerk lefty) came to mind with that fascism remark.
Phil,
“By the same standard, I could argue that Israel is enacting racist and apartheid policies not just in Palestine but all over Israel.”
They are enacting them here, and you need to write about it. You really do. [Relisten to Jeff Halper's interview in Seattle. If you can't listen to the whole thing, don't miss from 10:00 to 27:00.] link to youtube.com
Where do you think the NYPD learned these tactics? Or the latest horror in Aurora Colorado where police handcuffed and pointed automatic rifles at everyone within a crime scene in order to find the perp. Google for those images.
Been across the border to the north lately? Israeli-trained.
Halper is right. Israel is exporting their fascism and I/P ‘security problem’ globally; hence, their weaponry too. What Halper predicted would happen in Rio before the Olympics has started happening.
What is the purpose of talking about rebranding Israel, as if it were solely a label problem, if you aren’t addressing the deadly infection it is visiting upon countries it’s a parasite of, which it gets away with because no one will call it what it is: fascistic? Conundrum.
Write about the consequences of Israel’s fascism on the rest of us because no one will state, or address, admit, the obvious.
“Give me your tires, your gold,
Your hooded masses yearning to flee,
The wretched refuse on our steaming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest to another country,
I lift my lamp beside the golden calf!” — Lady Slithery @ Haifa port:
In claiming that Israel took a “right turn” due to the suicide bombings that Israeli North is ignoring that founding fathers Begin and Shamir were clearly fascist. Shamir collaborated with the Italian fascists in WWII, and Jabotinsky even wore a fascist uniform. And Israel has always claimed a unique mission in the world as a “light unto nations” and demonized its enemies. I mean, what kind of a statements were Golda Meir’s comments “We will have peace with the Arabs when they
love their children more than they hate us” or “When peace comes, we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.” These are the worst kind of demonization
“I mean, what kind of a statements were Golda Meir’s comments “We will have peace with the Arabs when they
love their children more than they hate us” or “When peace comes, we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.” “..lyn117
What kind of statement? The statement of a criminal narcissist. Criminal narcissist is actually a criminal profile classification of certain types of criminals.
They are often surprised to have their acts considered criminal because they have no conception of why anyone should care about anyone but them.
Often, when I come across a reference to Israel in a text written more than thirty years ago, or so, there’s an interesting assumption that Israel’s legitimacy is a non-controversial matter.
Then, she was ‘one of us.’ It was just taken for granted. The author was no more trying to make a point than he would be if he commented that Britain has a damp climate.
This is just no longer the case. For all the uproar and shouting, when one looks back, one can see how far Israel has declined. She’s following the same trajectory as South Africa — only about thirty years later. In 1954, South Africa was just fine. In 1964, criticism of her was the province of a few nutters. By the 1980′s everyone had to at least pretend they wanted her to change.
Do the math. I’m hoping to outlive the Zionist entity.
I just ran across something that supports this idea:
“Author of The Color Purple refuses to authorize Hebrew version because ‘Israel is guilty of apartheid’ “
This would have been a strange headline thirty years ago.
I’d say Israel meets a lot of the markers…..
Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism – Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights – Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause – The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military – Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media – Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security – Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined – Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected – The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed – Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts – Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment – Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption – Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections – Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. ”
And I would say today’s US Republican party is definitely fascist.
I would further say the US government already practices 1,2,3,4,6,7,9,13 and 14 and if the republicans get in 5,8,10 and 12 will put us totally into fascism.
American, agreed with that list, but couldn’t most of those be applied to most governments from ‘developed’ countries ?
For sure, UK matches most of ‘em.
And in the face of such creeping disempowerment, ( A ) most of the UK population are lulled to sleep, so they would be under the illusion — like the Americans — that they are shining examples of total freedom and peacful democracy, or,
( B) other UK citizens — like Americans — are so drunk on cheap alcohol and dope that they are blissfully ( self ) excluded from any debate on the issues that matter anyway.
Then,( C) there are the citizens who do know what is going on, but are powerless to do anything about their gradual disempowerment. And the whole damn system is so chamelion like, and elastic, that it can withstand blows to its exterior image anyway, as witnessed by the completely easy going smug self stasified response of Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell, when openly confronted and faced with their crimes by protestors attempting citizens arrest etc. In fact, they just turn such acts to their own advantage, saying it is ‘proof’ of how ‘open and free’ our ‘democracy’ truly is.The same can be seen in the utter contempt that Condie Rice showed for Code Pink’s impressive demos against her.
Then there are ( D ) the random acts of frustrated, directionless anger, such as the burning and looting riots in London last year — the system simply does not care– it is rich enough to stand the losses to property, and the faceless bureaucrats are cold hearted enough not to care one bit if ‘the plebian class’ destroy their own neighbourhoods and mug and rob from each other.
The ruling class are above it all and impervious to it.
Hold tight for the new reversion to the kinds of ‘serf/master’ relations we last had with the state and the powers in the 1800s and early 1900s — it is going to be a rough ride.
Hold tight.
American, I wonder if you can comment on my antibellism theory.
Namely, that almost all those elements you identify as fascist were present in USA prior to 1860, most notably in the South where the defense of slavery gave raise to a deeply paranoid culture where postmasters were censoring abolitionist mail and an over abolitionist could be lynched on the spot. Of course, the South was not great in labor rights then and ever since and so on.
One mildly amusing difference between antibellism and fascist is conservatism of the former and progressivism of the latter. Fascism was conceived as the response to the challenges of modernity and technology, with leaders imbued with genius who lead us to the better tomorrow, and it is definitely statist and not libertarian. Antebellism is against powerful leaders and more about the preservation of things as they ever were, leaders may be stupid as long as they have the deep sense of right and wrong.
Thus on issues like socialized medicine and public transit the fascists are puting “Socialist” in “National Socialist”, and antebellist are very much against.
Thanks to Lawrence Britt for listing the markers of Fascism; they perfectly fit the entire Arab and Muslim world and most of north Africa (and a few places elsewhere). So here is a bit of history for the foaming at the mouth authoritarians who blame Israel and the US for the world’s crimes while exonerating the real fascist patriarchal theocratic regimes.
I am truly amazed when some refer to the Palestinians as “indigenous peoples”, when historical facts backed up by direct observation by impartial experts know full well that the Palestinians are Arabs from several nearby countries and have no single ethnic identity or origin whatsoever.
Israel may be presently and primarily a country of those who fled Europe but its citizens, as Jews, have a claim to being “indigenous” in the sense that the Jews resided in the area thousands of years ago. But let’s put aside this quibbling and cut to the chase.
You are correct in that there is no solution, not because of mere stubbornness and politics but because of the implacable hatred of Arabs for Jews that pre dates the establishment of Palestine by hundreds of years….starting with Mohammed in the sixth century AD and passed on by him because the Jews of Medina refused to accept him as messiah.
If you doubt this, you can check it for yourself. It seems that most people read second and third hand articles rather than original sources and scholars of history and religion and pick those with which they already agree, i.e. “Don’t bother me with the facts”.
I do not defend Israel’s mistakes and misjudgements, but they pale in comparison to the barbarism and violence of the Arabs, which is constantly on view not only in Gaza and Israel but throughout the middle east and north Africa. The situation in Egypt is a prime example, and Tunisia may be the next to fall to the patriarchal autocracy of Islam….and maybe Turkey. The rest are hopeless: Afghanistan where girls are poisoned and have acid thrown in their faces; Pakistan where at least a thousand women are killed yearly in “honor killings”; India, home to several million slaves, mostly children; Sudan (ruled by a genocidal maniac), Mauritania and Mali, home to entrenched slavery; Saudi Arabia, funder of Wahhabism and founding oppressor of women and exporter of terrorism…. et al, ad nauseum.
It is is puzzling how little credulity is given to the religious origins and inspirations of modern day anti Semitism and the enslavement of women. We are dealing with barbaric fanatics who know nothing of the Enlightenment or its legacies of human rights, democracy and secularism. This is responsible for the retrograde cultures who have absolutely nothing of value in scholarship, science, technology, the arts or socialization. They are mired in the Dark Ages because of religion and hatred for women and nonMuslims.
There is nothing redeeming about the Palestinians whatsoever. Nor is there anything compelling in their complaints; they receive hundreds of millions of dollars from western countries yet are incapable of using them to create a state that is worth living in. Instead they blame the Jews for their sorry condition even though they are themselves responsible. In fact one need not be cynical to observe that it is in their political and ideological interest to REMAIN deprived so as to engender continual hatred and violence against Israel, who can therefore be blamed for everything, along with the USA. This is not cynicism but a quite reasonable analysis, given their original rejection of a two state solution in 1947, which even some of them are now regretting.
Finally, for the west to elevate this relatively unimportant issue to the top of the list of human rights violations is laughable as well as hypocritical. Europe and the UN sat on their hands during the Rwanda massacres and continues to do so with the Congo (not to mention Somalia and other African nations ruled by tyrants)…….and we are talking about MILLIONS of rapes and murders in these countries. Why this disparity? There is a simple answer: Israel is Jews and Africa is blacks,who the white liberals can ignore with impunity.
I find the spittle and invective on this blog truly repulsive but give thanks that
I live in a country that allows free speech…unlike Gaza and its Arab neighbors,
where dissenters are hung or beheaded. But of course that’s of little consequence to those who foam at the mouth over the rather small problem of some displaced Arabs who struggle to remain prejudiced and unenlightened in order to wreak
their hatred and wrath on the only democratic nation in the region.
Yawn, what a long list of ‘what-a-bout-ery’ — some of what you have written about other religions, other conflicts may well be partly true — but in no way does that excuse a lot of Polish, Ukranian, Latvia, Lithuanian, Russian and Austrian Jews, with no connection whatsoever to the land of Palestine ( besides in their imagination/religious narratives) turning up in 1948, and expelling 750,000 of the local people from their land, people who had lived there for hundreds and hundreds of years.
Now THAT is what we are talking about — very simple. You can talk all you want about other countries, and and other conflicts — none of that makes what European Jews did in 1948 ok. None of what you wrote can possibly justify a Jew from Krakow or Kiev, or Addis Ababa or Benghazi or Moscow or Paris, taking land away from the local peoples who have been there for countless generations.
Now you process that Lorna, because that is the truth that you and your European settler friends from Krakow and Brooklyn and Moscow can’t handle.
If you prefer, or if it makes you feel better, you can go on and on and on about ‘honour killings’ in some small Muslim community in the North of England, or you can go on and on about one African tribe killing another — but it does not, for one single second, in some kind of evil check and balance game,make what the European Jews did in Palestine ok.
To add, I will say that Israel is NOT the land of your forefathers — Jews are not a race , Jews are not a nation.Your forefathers were probably from Krakow or Kiev, not Palestine. Shlomo Sand’s research proves what we all knew anyway — that Jews are not a race group.
Not only that, Israel was planned and settled by EUROPEAN Zionists,from Germany, Austria, and Poland, all of whom were resolutely secular, with no interest at all in the Jewish religion anyway.
Jews are — just like Muslims, Catholics and Buddhists — a religious group and sometimes, they are an identity grouping, but they are obviously not a nation or race. Compare a Jew from Ethiopia or Yemen, with their coal black, almost purple black skin, and African and Arab features and hair, and a Jew from Poland or Lithuania, with their fine hair, fair skin, blonde or even ginger hair and European facial features — don’t tell me they all have the same ancestors and forefathers in Israel.
Saying as you do, that all Jews are orginally from Israel and implying that is the land of all your forefathers, is exactly as false, absurd and inaccurate as saying all Muslims all over the world, from China, Indonesia and Turkey, are originally all from Saudi becuase that is the birthplace of Islam, or, it is as false as saying all Buddhists are from India, or,for that matter, as false as saying all Christians are from Nazareth becuase that was Jesus’ origin.
Jews are a people of disparate origin and ‘race’ — just like Muslims and Buddhists — and all Jews do not go back ethnically to ancient Israel.
In fact, Shlomo Sand’s research shows that it is highly likely that hundred of years ago, many of the ancient Jews and Israelites in the land we now know as Israel, converted to Christianity, and then, converted to Islam.
And you know what that means, don’t you — it means that it is far more likely that the present day Christian and Muslim Palestinians of Gaza and Nablus and Jenin are far, far more likely to be descended from the real ancient Jews of the area, than are the present day European Jewish settlers from Brooklyn and Lithuania.
That is the truth that you can’t handle.
Lorna S,
One couldn’t find a better example of the fascist mindset than this comment of yours — you understand that, right? All of these crude fascist themes can be found in the writings of leading neoconservatives and Jewish nationalists like Bernard Lewis, Daniel Pipes, Norman Podhoretz, Pamela Geller, David Horowitz and many others in the pages of Commentary, Frontpage Magazine, the Weekly Standard, National Review, Atlas Shrugs, etc.
Nazis and European fascists used precisely the same ideological structures and memes to attack, demonize and murder Jews that you are using against Arabs and Muslims.
And I suspect that you imagine yourself to be a progressive. :)
I won’t presume that you are a Jewish nationalist — I don’t know that you are. Are you? Where are you coming from on Mideast politics, religion, ethnic issues, etc.? What are your cultural biases?
Lorna S,
Fascists organize their politics around grandiose apocalyptic conflicts and struggles among cultures — especially ethnic and religious cultures. They demonize their cultural enemies as a prelude to waging genocidal wars against them.
Real progressives — and modern Western democracies in general — treat human beings as complex arrays of individuals. Unlike Zionists, they are not mired down in ethnic or religious nationalism. Ethnic and religious nationalism almost invariably breed fascism, bigotry, violence and massive human rights abuses.
Try the apartheid ruse and if you want to double the flavor of abuse then you can mix in some slurs about Israel being fascist. Anything to demean and delegitimize – that is so obviously the name of the game.
It is a quest to denigrate at all costs – let’s not worry about facts any more.
No need to worry about the facts – just label any problematical assertions as ‘hasbara’, the perfect excuse and cop-out when all else has failed.
Mayhem, Israel does a great enough job at delegitimising and undermining itself, and making itself look awful — it doesn’t need anyone outside to make it look so.
Mayhem June 18, 2012 at 8:43 am
“No need to worry about the facts – just label any problematical assertions as ‘hasbara’, the perfect excuse and cop-out when all else has failed”
Go ahead …… try it in an open ended debate ….. that is until you fail to provide credible sources, twist or replace actual wording, fail to answer a question honestly, make a false accusation or become abusive.
In context, I find this line of argument somewhat ridiculous.
I’ve never met any group of people as congenitally dishonest as supporters of Israel. Conversely, while opponents of Israel are naturally sometimes tempted to excesses of hyperbole and/or sometimes try to fit Israel into larger models of social criticism that I don’t subscribe to in the first place, as a rule they don’t lie.
There’s no need to. The facts really do speak for themselves.
It is unfair to compare Israel to the apartheid regime in South Africa. The Apartheid regime tried to set up bantustans — Israel won’t permit them. The Boers really were ‘from’ South Africa. They’d been living there three hundred years. There was no other place that was conceivably ‘home.’ The Whites in South Africa only comprised less than 20% of the population — clearly, surrendering a monopoly on political power would spell their political extinction. They openly and frankly — and presumably sincerely — espoused a doctrine of racial superiority. Israel pretends to be an egalitarian democracy.
So you’re right — it does denigrate Apartheid South Africa to compare it to Israel. I’ve always thought the comparison was quite unfair.
Gaza is a bantustan. Areas A and B are too.
Palestinians can’t vote in Israel because they vote for the Palebantu authority. It is the same crap as in SA in the 80s .
You have a point. However, South Africa didn’t make a practice of shelling and shooting the inhabitants of its Bantustans whenever it felt so inclined; nor did it blockade them, pillage them of whatever meagre resources they might have possessed, etc.
In general, Israel refuses to permit exactly the same measures South Africa tried to implement. ‘Mayhem’ is right that it is unfair to compare South Africa to Israel.
I think that”s nit picking.
All that morality in the Torah counted for nothing once Erez Israel was secured.
Phil writes ; “The next day in Brooklyn, I asked an anti-Zionist friend whether it is possible to rebrand Israel as a fascist country. He considered the idea and nodded.”
Ze’ev Sternhell, leading scholar on the roots and evolution of fascism, has been over and over the debate,many times, most recently with Uri Avnery, and I quote, “(T)he positions of Professor Ze’ev Sternhell indeed stand out sharply against the darkness of the sky. He warns against Israeli fascism. This week, Israeli fascists laid a pipe-bomb at the entrance of his apartment and he was lightly injured.The choice of victim seems surprising at first. But the perpetrators knew what they were doing.”
Read here — link to zope.gush-shalom.org
“On this battlefield, two visions confront each other, two visions that are as far apart as the West is from the East. On the one side: An enlightened Israel, modern, secular, liberal and democratic, living in peace and partnership with Palestine as an integral part of the region. On the other side: a fanatical Israel, religious, fascist, cut off from the region and civilized humanity, a people that “dwells alone and shall not be reckoned among the nations” (Numbers, 23:9), where “the sword will devour for ever” (2 Samuel 2:26).
Ze’ev Sternhell is one of the outstanding guides of the enlightened vision. His positions are bright as the stars, resolute and incisive. Not a surprising target for the Neo-Nazi pipe-dreamers and pipe-bombers.”
Gotta say — Thank God for the Neo-Nazis and pipe bombers. ‘An enlightened Israel, modern, secular, liberal and democratic, living in peace and partnership with Palestine as an integral part of the region’ is the last thing I’d want to see.
It might last a while. In my view, Israel has no right to exist. The real threat — and fortunately it’s a purely hypothetical one — is a reasonable, moderate Israel that finds it in itself to throw the Palestinians a bone — to actually set up that Bantustan she can never quite bring herself to permit. Leiberman, Netanyahu, the rest of them — they’re my hope for a free Palestine. Hang tough, guys!
More lipstick!!!!
talknic says:
More lipstick!!!!
>>>>>>
ROTFLMAO!
American June 18, 2012 at 1:23 pm
For your enjoyment link to wp.me
The Austrian historien Brigitte Hamann, in her book ‘Hitler’s Vienna – A Portrait of a Tyrant as a Young Man’, writes:
‘The young Hitler had exceptionally good relationships with Jews in Vienna and admired their concept of the purity of the Jewish race and took it as a template for his weltanschauung and formation of the pure German, Aryan Volksgemeinschaft (ethnic community).’ – Chapter 10, Jews in Vienna.
Hitler would of course have approved of the letter of the wives of rabbis to the “daughters of Israel”, if such a letter had been written in Vienna. An affinity to Fascism is probably rooted in Judaism but it had to take the state of Israel to act it out as state Fascism. As long as Jews were in the Diaspora they had little chance to do so except as internal totalitarianism by their rabbis.
‘The Austrian historien Brigitte Hamann, in her book ‘Hitler’s Vienna – A Portrait of a Tyrant as a Young Man’, writes:
‘The young Hitler had exceptionally good relationships with Jews in Vienna and admired their concept of the purity of the Jewish race and took it as a template for his weltanschauung and formation of the pure German, Aryan Volksgemeinschaft (ethnic community).’ – Chapter 10, Jews in Vienna…’
Gotta wonder about this. If so, the author must have found evidence that allowed her to disregard Hitler’s own testimony in ‘Mein Kampf.’
There, he is quite explicit (and quite convincing) in identifying his encounter with unassimilated Jewry in Vienna as being the experience that made the it all clear to him. He reviles the Jews of Vienna in no uncertain terms.
I tend to believe people. If Hitler (writing in 1924) said the Jews he had met fifteen years before filled him with nausea, revulsion, fear, etc, they probably indeed did. I see no reason to doubt the authenticity of Hitler’s anti-semitism.
“And you know what, the reason why that campaign is so effective isn’t merely because of cash, although it helps. The reason is that there is simply a lot to attack. The Palestinian people may be suffering, but they are not by and large liberals.”
Why does this matter? I have a rocky relationship with my teenage son, typically don’t get out of bed until 9:00, and (witness now) waste a LOT of time on the internet.
None of this gives you title to my house. The whole notion that shortcomings on the part of Palestinians somehow justifies Israel’s oppression is a complete non-starter. They could all take up torturing and eating kittens. It still wouldn’t justify Israel.
In fact, and as with Arabs in general, no one actually cares much what Palestinians may or may not do. That is simply a pretext to justify their oppression. The Palestinians could have almost any culture imaginable. Those who seek to support Israel would vilify it.
‘Ultimately, I think Israel, if staying on the current path, will be faced with impossible odds but I also think they could, in an area of benign neglect, continue on the status quo for a very long time indeed unless those two conditions are met and I don’t see anything on the horizon soon. True, a lot have happened in the past 5 years but that was also mostly low-hanging fruit. The discourse on Israel was beyond ridicule just a few years ago, and to some extent is even today, but now the debate is a little more measured. It will be much harder to go from “yes Israel has problems” to “Israel is an international pariah who control our congress(on Israel/Palestine issues) via AIPAC”. That later meme has picked up but is so long only background noise. To truly get it into mainstream will be much harder than the last 5 years of just changing a debate which had tons of flaws in it.’
I think you lack historical perspective. Compared to its status thirty years ago, Israel is well on the way to becoming a pariah. About the only thing keeping her from completing the process is our continued support. Cancel that, and Israel will cease to exist within ten years. Some will demand that she be boycotted, and the rest will find it convenient to comply. Ala South Africa.
Mind, it will happen ‘nicely.’ Again, ala South Africa. Israel will be forced to give the vote to the Palestinians in the occupied territories, this will create a state in which Jews have at best a bare majority, due to their own internal divisions they’ll be incapable of maintaining political supremacy, the economic and security situation will deteriorate sharply, and Jews will start emigrating in droves.
Year Zero is when we pull the plug. By year 10, the only place ‘Israel’ will exist will be in the history books. It’s all going to leave a heck of a mess for the people of Palestine to clear up, but at least their rather unprovoked martyrdom will be over.
Seems that NPR is doing more feel good Israel stories or reminding the public of that particular genocide over the last few years. While NPR has always done this seems like they are doubling down on this strategy.
Fine Art
Vuillard: A Parisian Painter And His Jewish Patrons(3) (4)
Lucy Hessel, depicted above at the seaside in 1940, was Vuillard’s friend, muse and lover for more than 40 years. She was also the wife of art collector and Vuillard supporter Jos Hessel. Vuillard was with Hessel when he died in June 1940.
link to npr.org
A new exhibit in New York explores the life of Edouard Vuillard — a lesser-known, intellectual Parisian artist — and the Jewish tastemakers who supported him at the turn of the century.
The biggest mistake that leftist Israeli Jews have made is their failure to fight back against the ultra orthodox and haredim, who have shored up a militaristic right wing government. Had they fought for a written constitution guaranteeing full rights for Israeli Arabs and opposed the privileges and subsidies of orthodox scholars Israel would be a different country today. Instead, the Israeli left chose to align itself with a movement that is no less repressive: the Palestinian cause. Why leftist Jews in Israel and the USA have chosen to support violent repressive movements dedicated to extermination of all Jews is inexplicable. Why these same Jews have failed to support their country’s right to self defense is also inexplicable. What they have done is legitimize violent struggles of resistance with no care for exactly what these struggles seek or how they conduct themselves. Like American Zionists who place the state of Israel first, above their own country and its freedoms and civil liberties, Israel leftists have washed their hands of internal reform, joined those who would destroy the legitimate sovereign state of Israel, and in so doing have weakened the principles of both civil society and international law. But they have also strengthened the emergence of latent anti-Semitism, which is perfectly illustrated on this blog by bile, vilification and suffocating anger that exactly mirrors the hatred Arabs have had for Jews for centuries. The Israeli left and its American Jewish allies have provided cover for those who agree with the Arabs about the need to kill Jews.
The left and Arabs will of course deny that they want to kill Jews, and pretend that it is only “Zionism” that they hate. This fools no one except those who agree with them and who are happy to pick up this deception and use it for their own ends.
The double standard of the world in judging Israel and its utter refusal to judge, much less indict, the theocratic Muslim and Arab tyrants and Muslim regimes, are definitive proof that the Jews, wherever they are, are the real target. That so many American Jews are ready to buy into this deception is in the end the most reprehensible of all. Like me, one need not be a Zionist, an observant Jew or a
nationalistic supporter of a Jewish state (I personally oppose the notion of ANY
religious state, Jewish or Muslim) to understand – assuming one is willing and honest – to recognize a double standard of morality and interpretation of international law. There is no longer any doubt in my mind that leftist Jews in Israel and the United States are complicit in denying the facts on the ground and in
promoting anti-Semitism.
Lorna S,
Pay attention to the big picture: why are you bogged down in ethnic nationalist politics at all? I’m not. Most Americans aren’t. Most Europeans aren’t. They don’t organize their politics around vicious cultural struggles with ethnic and religious outsiders.
Why do you?
You (like many “liberal Zionists”) strike me as being a confused person since you cling so strongly to the fig leaf of progressivism and classical liberalism to define yourself to the world.
Authentic progressives and classical liberals are not emotionally worked up about their ethnic and religious nationalist enemies, as you clearly are. They don’t slice up the world along ethnic and religious lines. That’s not how they roll. They are interested in universal human talent that cuts across and transcends all ethnic, religious and national categories and boundaries.
Lorna S,
All the themes you have asserted and developed here can be found in the writings of pro-Israel militants and extremists like Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes and David Horowitz. How do you reconcile that fact with your alleged enlightened progressivism?
“But they have also strengthened the emergence of latent anti-Semitism, which is perfectly illustrated on this blog by bile, vilification and suffocating anger that exactly mirrors the hatred Arabs have had for Jews for centuries. The Israeli left and its American Jewish allies have provided cover for those who agree with the Arabs about the need to kill Jews.
“..Lorna
Perfect example of the cult…except now even US Jews are collaborating with Arabs to kill Israeli Jews.
Gets wilder and wilder.
Are you Lorna Fitzsimons of BICOM ?
Yeah, because it’s impossible that someone is opposed to zionism and the occupation and oppression of the Palestinians out of simple, progressive feelings. One must hate Jews qua Jews. Do I have your brand of paranoid lunacy right?
‘The biggest mistake that leftist Israeli Jews have made is their failure to fight back against the ultra orthodox and haredim, who have shored up a militaristic right wing government. ‘
I disagree. This is a variation on the dream of a ‘good Israel.’
It’s my feeling that almost everything Israel does derives with a sickening inevitability from her essence. You cannot seize lands belonging to others justly, nor can you deny them their political rights fairly, nor can you drive them out with fire and sword and love in your heart. I don’t think there ever was, nor can there be, a ‘good’ Israel. Its nature derives from the logic of its situation.
Israel was ALWAYS a facist nation – America is currently a facist nation – all the G8 nations are slowly coming on board to this Zionist brand of facism..
This is heading for war. It is 1939 -but not for the reasons the great Bibi spews out…
(I am not Lorna Fitzsimon; I am Lorna Salzman, a secular atheist rationalist, not a Zionist nor a liberal but a
radical environmentalist opposed to global industrial capitalism and probably further left than most leftists on the
important issues like health care, energy, environment, human rights, indigenous people, etc. I also was a US Green Party candidate for congress and for the USGP
presidential nomination. I don’t follow dogmas or doctrines of any kind. I examine issues on their merits and make up my own mind, unlike the kneejerk
supporters of the Palestinians).
Comment:I am not clear as to what you (Kevin) mean. If you mean that some on the right have pointed out the authoritarian repressive character of Islam, they have
pointed out the same facts which I have verified for myself over the past seven years elsewhere, in numerous blogs, journals, books, and personal contacts with people like Ibn Warraq and Tawfik Hamid. Unfortunately many people automatically dismiss anything that the right wing says. This is not only ridiculous, but
shows that most people refuse to do their own research and reach their own conclusions. It is unfortunate the the leftists and liberals have
abandoned this issue to the right wing, with whom I have major disagreements on many other issues..actually nearly all. But my work on Islamism
began before I knew anything about Geller et al. Incidentally, while I don’t agree with Spencer’s aggressive attacks on other people like the quite
honorable credible Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, Spencer does happen to be an excellent scholar and speaker on these issues, as is Pipes. Geller and Horowitz
are however right wing zealots with ulterior motives and agenda. It is therefore important to distinguish between them and others who may or may not
be on the right. You may be unaware that some highly credible informed leftists have been among the strongest critics of Islam and Islamism: the late
Christopher Hitchens of course, Bernard-Henri Levy, French socialist, Nick Cohen (UK journalist), Pascal Bruckner (French leftist philosopher), Paul Berman, Salman Rushdie, and among the ex Muslims the scholar Ibn Warraq, Tawfik Hamid and Ayaan Hirsi Ali stand out. For speaking out they are at constant risk of assassination….proving the point that Muslims are intolerant of dissent and will not tolerate criticism of Islam. The same applies to the left: there are credible leftists who believe in human rights and freedom of speech such as Michael Berube and those mentioned above, and then there are the loony leftists like Chris Hedges, Ramsey Clark, Robert Fisk,etc (there is a long list; see my Hall of Shame on my web site, lornasalzman.com) whose views should embarrass the liberal left just as Geller and Horowitz embarrass the credible people on the right.
Lorna S,
The ethnic xenophobia index: the number of times one mentions one’s ethnic enemies. You rank extremely high on the ethnic xenophobia index. Why is this the case?
Your core narratives appear to be:
1. Jews vs. antisemites
2. Jews vs. Arabs
3. Jews vs. leftists
4. Jews vs. Muslims
How many times on a typical day do you think about your ethnic enemies?
How, really, do your xenophobic views differ from those of Pamela Geller or Melanie Phillips?
I probably know more about Islam than either you or Robert Spencer (feel free to compare reading lists). Radical Islam is a major problem in the world but there are much bigger problems — one of those bigger problems is radical religious Zionism. Radical religious Zionists — and their “liberal Zionist” fellow travelers — are going out of their way to pick an apocalyptic fight with more than a billion Muslims worldwide while dragging Americans into their mess. You seem to be part of that crowd.
Sean,
You need to add to Lorna’s list:
Jews vr Jews
Jews vr Blacks
Jews vr Jesus
Blacks are Bad and Anti Semites
link to aserblazer.blogspot.com
Liberal Jews have a Jesus complex and that is why they support Jew killing by Palestines and Muslims
link to lornasalzman.com
Zionist Attack on the Green Party…Lorna is a Zionist
link to vfpdissident.blogspot.com
There is another really nifty article by Lorna where, concerned citizen that she is, she blames Africians and Arabs for world over population, and mentions how they are “unlike” the Jews who don’t over populate the earth..lol.
We have our own Pam Geller here now. This should be fun.
American,
Amazing links, but I am not surprised. One picked up that “Amalek” vibe from her first post.
The thing to pay attention to here is that Lorna is a self-declared atheist and secularist — and yet she is still a militant Jewish xenophobe. Militant Jewish ethnocentrism and ethnic nationalism can easily exist and thrive as a secular and non-religious phenomenon, without any formal connection to Judaism.
Some of this rhetoric you uncovered reminds one of Meir Kahane in its hostile and paranoid views towards non-Jews.
American,
Here is a partial list of parties that Lorna Salzman appears to have defined as enemies of the Jews:
1. ACLU
2. Amnesty International
3. Arabs
4. Ban Ki Moon
5. BBC
6. blacks
7. British House of Commons
8. Chris Hedges
9. Christiane Amanpour
10. Christianity
11. Christians
12. George Galloway
13. Ian Buruma
14. In These Times
15. Islam
16. Jesus Christ
17. John Pilger
18. Karen Armstrong
19. Ken Livingstone
20. liberals
21. liberal Jews
22. Muslims
23. Naomi Klein
24. New York Times
25. Noam Chomsky
26. Norman Finkelstein
27. Norway
28. Palestinians
29. PEN
30. Queen Beatrix of Holland
31. Queen Elizabeth II
32. Ramsey Clark
33. Robert Fisk
34. Robert Wright
35. Rowan Williams
36. Sweden
37. Tariq Ramadan
38. The Nation
39. Timothy Garton Ash
40. Tony Judt
41. UN Human Rights Council
42. Uri Avnery
43. US Green Party
44. William Blum
45. Yale University Press
46. Z Magazine
Imagine having so many ethnic enemies! And I am sure there are quite a few more once one begins to dig into her writings. All of this is pretty much standard neoconservative boilerplate. I increasingly lean to the belief that extreme ethnic xenophobia is a mental condition or disorder — one that is possibly genetically based. There is a peculiar obsessive-compulsive quality about it. It’s a psychiatric issue more than a matter of ideology.
Apparently he didn’t read the introduction to this list and why those names were on it. So for those who are possibly literate, here is what this list is about. No mention of any of these being “enemies of the Jews” but I am not responsible for useful idiots injecting lies. You can check it out yourself on my web site, where you can also check out my other articles instead of
taking the word of those who choose to be liars and slanderers.
Hall of Shame (from http://www.lornasalzman.com)
Here is a partial list of notable journalists, academics, politicians and organizations who not only routinely ignore or justify islamist violence, misogyny and anti-Semitism but who go out of their way to smear and intimidate those (such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali) who dare to speak out about islamist violence and repression.
They regularly suppress, attack and file lawsuits against critics of Islam while turning a blind eye to Islamist violence against women and Jews, “honor” killings, anti-Semitic preachings, and suppression of freedom of speech.
Some of them also support the incorporation of sharia law into western secular legal systems, while others “merely” support appeasement of muslim demands for special treatment and exemption from secular civil society’s laws. The journalists have written approving or uncritical articles and interviews with radical islamists such as Tariq Ramadan. A few are hard=line marxists and outright sympathizers with terrorists and haters of the USA. Most disseminate anti-Israel propaganda while whitewashing or concealing the truth about Israel’s adversaries, especially Hamas. Organizations like PEN and ACLU purport to be impartial defenders of freedom of expression but their actions tend to show favoritism towards Islam.
Lorna S,
Are you seriously trying to claim that you haven’t framed your politics primarily in terms of ethnic xenophobia and threats to your ethnic group?
That is certainly the impression one gets from browsing your writings. Try Googling:
link to google.com
Here is a typical quote from you:
link to lornasalzman.com
BEGIN QUOTE
“The big story is one that a few scholars have written about but which is most completely and explicitly laid out by German scholar and historian Matthias Kuntzel in his startling book, “Jihad and Jew-Hatred: Islamism, Nazism and the Roots of 9/11″. Simply put, Kuntzel, through extensive examination of original documents, statements, radio broadcasts and letters, outlines a continuous, unbroken line from Nazism in the 1930s to Islamism today. The line is simple to analyze and speaks loudly and clearly: the Jews must be destroyed.
Not Israel. The JEWS.”
END QUOTE
In tone, style, voice, vibe, content and themes your writings remind one of Pamela Geller, Carline Glick, Melanie Phillips, Debbie Schlussel, Daniel Pipes, Rachel Abrams, Jennifer Rubin, David Horowitz, Brigitte Gabriel, Rita Katz, Eliana Benador and other Islamophobes with a certain agenda.
I think Americans — and I define myself politically and culturally as an American, not a member of an ethnic or religious group — face much more pressing problems and issues than Islam or Islamism. Perhaps we could have a rational discussion about precisely what those problems and issues are.
Well, well, I do believe Lorna has just outed herself as ‘a racist’ not ‘a rationalist.’ LOL
Your ordinary run of mill racist combined with the typical fanaticism on whatever issues their deranged little minds latch onto.
She could BE racist for all I care. I’m racist.
So? Unless one is going to go so far as to assert one’s distaste for a culture permits one to dispossess and oppress its members, I don’t see how any of it can justify Israel.
@ Colin
In what way are you a racist?
Do you think people’s rights or treatment should be based on their race?
If you do then I agree you are racist.
But having a ‘ distaste’ for certain cultures or their habits or beliefs is not quit the same as actual racism.
Lorna
Which IDF unit did you serve with?
did you pick the name Lorna because it sounds more credible than your Hebrew name?
proving the point that Muslims are intolerant of dissent and will not tolerate criticism of Islam
how does this tally with
I also was a US Green Party candidate for congress and for the USGP
presidential nomination. I don’t follow dogmas or doctrines of any kind
‘I also was a US Green Party candidate for congress and for the USGP
presidential nomination. I don’t follow dogmas or doctrines of any kind’
That is pretty funny. Presumably, she means that she doesn’t follow dogmas of doctrines of any kind that she disagrees with.
Some of the names you cite are unfamiliar to me, others are indeed leftists, and I’m unsure as to the political orientation of others — but one leaps out. How is Ayaan Hirsi Ali a leftist?
‘For speaking out they are at constant risk of assassination….proving the point that Muslims are intolerant of dissent and will not tolerate criticism of Islam.’
Really? Christopher Hitchens was at constant risk of assassination? The only one on your list that would seem to qualify was Salman Rushdie.
In any case, whatever the factual basis of people’s criticisms of Islam, I suspect their motives. To pick a non-Muslim culture at random, Hinduism has plenty about it that is regrettable from a Western point of view: for example, that a woman is ordained to be the slave of her husband and dance attendance on him. Moreover, there are plenty of practical consequences that stem from such beliefs. What’s more, you can get into a great deal of trouble very fast in India if you attack Hindu sacred cows (couldn’t resist). However, people don’t find in this a foundation for wholesale cultural hostility.
I think people want to hate Muslims first and think of the reasons second; not the other way around.
‘I examine issues on their merits and make up my own mind, unlike the kneejerk
supporters of the Palestinians.’
Now speaking for myself, this misses the mark. I started out as a more or less unreflective supporter of Israel. ‘Cast a Giant Shadow,’ Leon Uris, brave little Israel in 1967 — all of that. Admittedly, I was only a teenager — but yes, Israel was good. Of course she was.
Starting about 1980, all that started falling apart. Israel kept rubbing my snout in what she really was, I started thinking about things, and here I am.
It wasn’t being unreflecting that led to me being a ‘kneejerk supporter of the Palestinians,’ but reflection itself.
None of these responses are worthy of reply. Invective, ad hominem attacks, snap judgments, and general refusal to address the issues rather than attack the writer: none of these constitute informed dialogue. The writers on this blog are like the
five year olds throwing sand in the sand box, saying “You stink”. If throwing around
personal insults makes you feel good, be my guest. I’ll wait for some informed and intelligent responses before I waste more time on people who think their prejudices are worthy of attention and are the most important statements they can make. My positions are quite clear for those who take the trouble to actually read them and aren’t content to simply throw out accusations of racism. In this latter respect they mirror exactly what radical Muslims do in their mosques and the media. You could probably improve your invective by listening to Al Jazeera. Or maybe you already do so…..there’s no difference actually. It all sounds so familiar. PS: my parents
picked my name. What was your point anyway? I’m not the Jew ashamed to be one, but the Jews on this blog apparently are making up for what they think was
misbehavior by Jews hundreds of years ago. I’ve got news for you: you aren’t to blame for them any more than Thomas Jefferson can be blamed for having slaves.
Ancient history.
Lorna S says:
None of these responses are worthy of reply. Invective, ad hominem attacks, snap judgments, and general refusal to address the issues rather than attack the writer: none of these constitute informed dialogue.”
Then why did you reply?
Our dialogue was very informed.
We nailed you as what you are right off the bat with your own words and previous writings.
Yes, I know you have to unload some of that venom on all your enemies now and then or bust.
*BTW, we charge $200 an hour for this kind of mental health catharsis outlet to zios in meltdown ..so go pay your bill at the MW donation button.
It’s hard to figure out what you’re talking about. However, you do seem to be unwilling to respond specifically to what anyone has said.
That’s pretty lame. Is the idea supposed to be that we’re just to take it on faith that you’re right and we’re wrong? Since several of the statements you’ve made appear to be erroneous and others are obviously nonsensical, that’s pretty hard to do.
‘The left and Arabs will of course deny that they want to kill Jews, and pretend that it is only “Zionism” that they hate. This fools no one except those who agree with them and who are happy to pick up this deception and use it for their own ends.’
Yawn! This is that old attempt to equate hostility towards Israel with ‘anti-semitism.’
If it’s 1938, and I hate Nazi Germany, does that mean that I am bigoted against Germans?
I am perfectly aware of what biases, prejudices, and dislikes I have, and I am not anti-semitic. No foolin.’
I just hate Israel. I loathe it. It could be filled with Swedish Lutherans, and I would still hate it. It’s got nothing to do with anti-semitism whatsoever.
In point of fact, anti-semitism among critics of Israel is rather rare. It crops up, but stands out more as the exception that proves the rule than anything else.
Conversely, those who would normally be anti-semites are usually driven by their other prejudices to support Israel: it is the perfect stick with which to beat Muslims and Arabs.
So give up on playing the ‘anti-semitic’ card. That dog won’t hunt. People hate Israel because it’s awful, not because they hate Jews.
Lorna S June 19, 2012 at 2:37 pm
“None of these responses are worthy of reply”
Yet you have
“Invective, ad hominem attacks, snap judgments, and general refusal to address the issues rather than attack the writer: none of these constitute informed dialogue.”
I agree
“The writers on this blog are like the five year olds throwing sand in the sand box, saying “You stink”. If throwing around personal insults makes you feel good, be my guest. I’ll wait for some informed and intelligent responses before I waste more time on people who think their prejudices are worthy of attention and are the most important statements they can make. “
Oh… Say…. wasn’t it you who just said “Invective, ad hominem attacks, snap judgments, and general refusal to address the issues rather than attack the writer: none of these constitute informed dialogue.”
Lemme know when you come up with some informed dialogue preferably with some provenance(example), because your first post was filled with ‘invective, ad hominem attacks, snap judgments, and general refusal to address the issues’.
Now in case you missed it, the issue here is: Israel desperately trying to re-brand itself in order to cover for it’s numerous breeches of International Law, the UN Charter and conventions.
Ha,Ha,Ha…rebrand this Israel. Even if this doesn’t pass it’s a fricking first.
And just the beginning in my state…..more will come.
June 20, 2012
NC Dems considering resolution attacking Israel for ‘illegal occupation’ of Palestine
Published: 6:30 PM 06/18/2012
By Matthew Boyle – The Daily Caller
The North Carolina Democratic Party (NCDP) is seriously considering passing a resolution that would criticize Israel for its “illegal occupation” of Palestine, the latest in a long line of controversial moves coming out of one of the major battleground states President Barack Obama’s team is banking on to win re-election.
The resolution didn’t pass at this weekend’s NCDP state convention, but was tabled and referred to the executive committee for further consideration later. It attacks the United States for providing Israel with “$3 billion annually in military aid,” while the “Israeli occupation, disenfranchisement and impoverishment of significant numbers of the Palestinian population, and Israel’s overwhelming military might and its role as the only nuclear power threaten stability in a region witnessing increased demands for democracy and an end to autocratic rule.”
In the resolution, which is titled “Bringing a Just Peace to the Middle East: Israel and Palestine,” the authors accuse Israel of using “this aid to continue its illegal occupation, demolition of Palestinian homes, expansion of existing illegal settlements built on expropriated Palestinian land, and a continued blockade of essential goods from Gaza, a blockade causing a U.N.-documented humanitarian crisis.”
The resolution also says that the United States’ aid causes “violence and insecurity to Israelis, Palestinians, and helps subvert any prospect for peace.” It also accuses Israel of “human rights violations” and “illegal occupation” that “violate international and U.S. law.”
If it ends up being passed, the resolution would mean the NCDP “would hold its elected congress members and senators accountable for helping end our government’s role in continuing the Israeli Palestinian tragedy by making the human rights of both peoples central to U.S. foreign policy by ending Israel’s illegal occupation, by advocating for a viable Palestinian state, and membership of that state in the United Nations.”
It would also, if passed, mean the NCDP would advocate its congressional delegation bring “all parties, including Hamas, to the table to negotiate an end to the Israeli Occupation and a secure peace based on the 1967 borders,” among other things.
This resolution was the only one that didn’t pass at Saturday’s NCDP convention – but the party is still considering it, according to the Raleigh News and Observer.
Wow. Thanks, American. There seems to be a sprinkling of this in the South. I wonder if or how much of it is being driven the by the Methodist debate on this having affect and filtering back out into everyday political life. (I know the Charleston, WV Op-Ed reported here at MW was directly a result of the UMC debate.)
If so, maybe we’ll see more of it after the Presbyterian debate. Particularly if they get threatened with divorce by Israel-centric, my way or the highway, zealots a few more times.
Tendrils. Venation. Fractals. Oh My!
@ritzl
I do think the Presbyterian and Methodist movements have a lot to do with it. Particulary in the South, churches are the social unity rail or centers and a grapevine in communities, so even if the members don’t pay much attention to politics or FP they do know what their churches are doing and saying.