Why is it that Israeli journalists must tell us about our electoral politics on matters of war and peace? Aluf Benn in Haaretz:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak are threatening to attack Iran, and the world does not seem concerned. Israel warns that its face is turned in the direction of a war that will bump up the price of oil and cause many deaths and much damage, and the world does nothing to prevent the tragedy…
There is logic behind this apparent American weakness: Obama needs the support of America’s Jews in the upcoming presidential elections, hence his reluctance to enter into a diplomatic confrontation with the Israeli Prime Minister. According to this explanation, Obama must catch up with Republican rival Mitt Romney, who came to be photographed next to Netanyahu in Jerusalem. Obama despises Netanyahu, but he has put aside his feelings at least until the elections are over in November. This is one of the reasons that Netanyahu and Barak want to attack in the coming weeks, when Obama will be forced to support Israel, because of his political needs at home.
All signs point to a continuation of America’s total cave-in to Israeli pressure. However, if Obama’s sources of hard-line Zionist money dry up to early and too completely, or if the Republicans get so much hard-line Zionist money that it doesn’t matter, then perhaps Obama would at last have a free hand. Similarly, if the Israeli push to war is ill-timed, the USA might elect not to join Israel without electoral damage.
September anyone?
Nonsense.
The israeli press is at the hip of the Israeli national security doctrine, just like the American MSM is when it comes to America’s wars.
Israel has not – and never will – warn of a strike in advance. Ever. The strikes against Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq’s and Syria’s nuclear reactors all were out of the blue. That is how you maximize efficiency.
I’m still struck by leftists who fall for this obvious bait over and over and over again.
Honestly, in your hearts of hearts, do you really think that the top Israeli brass would leak to the Israeli press like Barak did this past weekend his preferable plans to attack Iran weeks in advance for them to prepare? Really?
This is just a way to pressure Obama and the rest of the world to stay tough on the sanctions and preferably add even more sanctions. This is the pattern so far. Rattle the sabers, add more sanctions from an unwilling Obama. Then rattle some more(Anyone remembers how stories in the Israeli press was filled to the brim at how a strike against Iran was just ‘perfect’ for the summer? And have everyone forgotten what really happened? More sanctions).
That Aluf Benn writes this means nothing less than that he is a happy participant in the dissimination of the propaganda of his country. After all, the Israeli authorities that the leading Western liberals are reading Haaretz, they view it as legitimate. That’s also a reason why it’s Op-Ed page has become distinctively more ‘centrist’ over the past 2 years because it has been leaned on. Amira Hass has even admitted as much. And Aluf Benn is part of that.
obama will have to support Israel’s doomsday iran war, because of his political needs at home, or so speaks aluf benn in haaretz?
Which means that the continued existence of life on earth now depends upon there being a candidate for president who, among other things, supports justice for palestine.
which can only happen if there is a supporting movement of a size, strength and tenacity such as has never before been seen in America.
Fortunately the Occupy movement (leaderless yet with everyone a leader) is still around, albeit in a semi-quiescent state, and should lend itself nicely to meeting the above “specs”.
Interjecting itself into the election campaign, not behind any specific candidate but, instead, a vision of the world in which each of us not only becomes the master of our own destiny, but is recognized as being equally important in the day to day as in the total scheme of things.
with a plan as to how this vision can be attained
such that the movement will prove to be irresistable
forcing president obama to either climb aboard or be dropped along the way and replaced by a yet to be named last minute write-in candidate who pledges to support the bold new vision of a better world.
but without billions of dollars for advertisements, what chance such a movement?
no problem, providing that the spirit of those magical seventeen days in tahrir square prevails, as it did during the early days of occupy wall street, and it undoubtedly will, once the occupy movement’s vision is agreed upon and disseminated on the internet and by word of mouth.
has to do with a people united being undefeatable.
If Obama has a grain of moral courage left in him, he could use this situation to retest the assumption that criticizing Israel is always a vote loser. Let him invite a few of the extremely prominent Israeli opponents of an attack on Iran (former heads of the security services, for instance) for consultations at the White House and then announce US opposition to such insanity at a joint press conference. The outcome for him in terms of domestic politics might not be so terrible after all.
That’s a good thought, Stephen. Inviting Israeli realists/skeptics, and issuing a joint press statement about the large and unnecessary risks of such an attack would certainly change the conversation. Obama has appeared weak so far in his confrontations with Netanyahu’s bullying, such weakness always prompts further bullying, and clearly, Israeli hawks see Obama as unable to challenge Israel before the election and therefore there is great time pressure to act to take advantage. But looking weak is a poor tactic in running for a leadership position, and in effect saying, “please don’t” while the bully goes ahead anyway, could be catastrophic for Obama, on the strength-for-leadership meter. Laying down a sharp line for Netanyahu, telling him “no,” keeping us all out of war, particularly if it becomes debate fodder in the presidential election, and Obama uses that platform to effectively distinguish the realistic, reasonable restraint from the irresponsible alternative, seems like the only choice that saves him a chance of winning and saves the world a chance to avoid this stupid and very risky and unnecessary attack. In short, it is the right thing to do. “From your lips to Obama’s ears.”
This is Obama’s Truman moment of Thanksgiving UN vote on Palestinian partition.
Pretty reassuring the fact that the would-be-President of the US is willing to undersell the world to please his domestic position. The question is: US citizens will be willing, as well, to face the hell for the reckless interest of their politicians?
I don’t think so.
As a matter of fact, in EU, we are intimately certain that nothing should really happen, inasmuch Iran is not a bunch of unarmed and besieged Palestinians.
Reasonably, I mean.
But days ago I happened to think that maybe we’ve underestimated the fact that Israel is facing her last chances to survive in the long period as a Jewish state in the region (see, on the matter, J. Mearsheimer). So that, waging war to Iran and set on fire the Middle East, could turn the situation upside down in the foolish mind of the Zionist hawks, thus leading to a providential, though unpredictable redistribution of the cards on the table of the Middle East scenario.
All I can say over and over again is never before in the history of the world has there been a situation where a country’s leaders, much less the superpower leader of the free world, has bought into the idea that their/his election depends, in whatever part, on declaring fidelity to foreign country and their support from foreign loyalist to a foreign country.
Never happened before, nothing comparable to it ever, and wherever it leads or however it ends it’s going to be a giant FUBAR for the US —and for the world because of the US reach in the world.
Iran is just one symptom of this and it sends my mind reeling that most Americans aren’t fully aware of what this abdication of America(ns) interest to a foreign power really, really, really MEANS…..the full depth of the corruption behind it.
The US is totally off the tracks, whatever is was or ‘supposed’ to be is gone.
I don’t know how much longer it can teeter on ruled by special interest and elite desires.
There’s got to be some point where the law of diminishing returns collapses it.
@ American
Truman went against the entire State Dept and Foreign Diplomat crowd, when the Zionists banged on his desk, and threatened to dump loads of campaign cash, key Jewish vote in NY area & key US media into Dewey’s coffers–to this day most Americans never heard of the story. Truman folded like a bad haberdasher’s house of cards.
Truman didn’t just go against the State Department, he also went against the defense establishment.
Obama’s desire to be reelected far surpasses his desire to help a bunch of Arabs half a world away. The Israelis know this all too well and have used presidential election to their advantage before. For instance 08-09 Gaza War (massacre) when Obama was still president elect. When questioned by a reporter about the bombardment of Gaza he simply deflected the question stating he’s not the president yet. Many fear Israel will use the same tactic and attack Iran right before this election. Makes sense, there would be no repercussions from the US.
“there would be no repercussions from the US.”
US repercussions are not what we have to be concerned with. Read my posts below.
Who is this guy to presume what Americans think and call it weakness?
Read this sh*t:
I can’t remember the name for this fallacy of logic, but he’s full of it. (Not to mention the tiring victimhood cry for something they are initiating, and will deserve if they act.) This is typical Israeli blindness and lack of understanding of how reality works.
It is he who is not paying attention. Pakistan has just announced that if Iran is attacked, it will come to its aid.
(1) Pakistan has nukes.
(2) Pakistan has dominion over the supply routes for US forces in Afghanistan via the southern route (Russians have the north). Expect an instant cut-off.
(3) 80% of the Pakistanis now despise America, most evident among the formerly USA-loving youth, because of our drone killing. That affection is gone. An American cannot walk in Pakistan neighborhoods with no security without being killed. (My source? A former Pakistani General who told me this directly. He said the hate is visceral now BECAUSE of American actions; they feel utterly betrayed. Glenn Greenwald writes about this all the time.)
(4) China controls one of the ports just inside the Iranian border from Pakistan across from Oman.
(5) The Baluchistans who occupy the SE section of Iran and the SW part of Pakistan will come to the aid of both Pakistan and Iran.
(6) The Iranians have Russian aircraft carrier vaporizing bombs already trained at US aircraft carriers in the Gulf.
I don’t know what Alud Benn is expecting Americans who are not listened to by their politicians–the ones sucking on Jewish dough–to do.
He should be asking Netanyahu and Barak why they are setting up Israeli genocide with these Dr. Strangelove threats of acting on their paranoia.
Consequences. Consequences. Consequences. Something that never penetrates the Pilpul. Your choice. Your loss.
How many times has the US said it can’t tell Israel what to do?
Far be from us to stand in their way.
I suggest these for mood music on the Isr WH hot line phone.
‘A brave man once requested me
To answer questions that are key
Is it to be or not to be
And I replied ‘Oh, why ask me?’
That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
And you can take or leave it if you please”
‘Que Sera, Sera, whatever will be will be, the future’s not ours to see, Que sera sera.’
Re: MRW’s use of the term Pilpul. This is Jew baiting.
yonah, i checked out wiki and it included this:
that said, you may be correct, but is this something you would say if the person using the term was jewish?
“Re: MRW’s use of the term Pilpul. This is Jew baiting.”
I knew about corn, and cheese, and some places forbid anything live or organic, but I didn’t know it was illegal to use Jews for bait.
But Jeez “yonah” don’t you think, as a Jew you should be wondering whether or not to stay in Israel? Actually cancel your US passport, before you end up on the end of a hook? You pathetic little whiner, you.
“that said, you may be correct, but is this something you would say if the person using the term was jewish?”
If, for instance, I maintained that dilated pilpuls is a sure sign of Ziocaine intoxication?
But whatever you do, don’t get your pupick mixed up with your pilpul.
Annie- A Jew using a Jew baiting term is a Jew using a Jew baiting term. If you really need me to come up with a new term for it, I will feed it into my language computer and add a few dashes of chicken shmaltz, kishkes and a pastrami sandwich on rye with a kosher pickle. Then I’ll say the Shma, dance a hora and cut off a foreskin and pray for guidance and see if it comes up with some fancy term for it. But I don’t think being Jewish is a license to use Jew baiting terminology. (Of course unlike James Bond and his license to kill, we do not need a license to use any term we wish, but I think you get my point.)
yonah, in all sincerity, are there any sources besides you saying this? why would i want you to come up with a new term for pilpul? googled jew baiting and pilpul and no one else seems to be making that point. what if, as wiki claims..it has entered English as a colloquialism used by some to indicate extreme disputation or casuistic hairsplitting? as opposed to your theory? and what’s so terrible about the word expanding outside of it’s normal definition? i can’t think of another word for extreme disputation or casuistic hairsplitting. can you lend us the term once in awhile?
MRW did not use the term because it fit so well. He used the term because he wished to bait the Jews. Do I know this for a fact? No.
Let’s take the phrase, “they want their pound of flesh”. It has been used in the comments section and I felt that it was Jew baiting as well and I received the answer, “no, it’s shakespeare, it’s not Jew baiting”. Well, maybe. Then again, maybe the phrase is being used because Shakespeare uses it in Merchant of Venice to describe the Jewish “villain” Shylock.
I cannot tell you what words to use. I cannot tell MRW what words to use. I cannot prove in a court of law that the word Pilpul is being used to Jew bait. I cannot prove “pound of flesh” is being used to Jew bait.
About 26 years ago I was arguing with Black Hebrews (a Jew hating subsection of American blacks that call themselves Black Hebrews, there are in fact black Jews and blacks who call themselves Hebrews who are not Jew haters, but these dudes, were Jew haters.) in front of Madison Square Garden in NYC. I used the term “rigmarole” and the word off my lips sounded like it flowed off my lips because it rhymed with the word “nigger” and before I could be called on it, I explained, “I too was raised in racist America” and that was enough to defuse the tension created by my use of the term. Later I went home (before google) and found out that the word was derived from ragman’s roll and had nothing to do with “nigger”. But nonetheless I had created a situation by using the word, in which I felt it necessary to defuse any tension that I had created.
Anyone is allowed to use any word they want. If Pilpul is the best word and it is only being used because it is the best word, go ahead and use it and me calling it Jew baiting is wrong. But, in all honesty when the phrase “pound of flesh” is used and when the word “pilpul” is being used, 9 times out of 10 the person is using it in order to be naughty and cutesy. And I’m here to tell you, it ain’t cute.
YF: “Re: MRW’s use of the term Pilpul. This is Jew baiting.”
What about “hasbara”? We’d be out of business if you could ban that. Is there is a list of words we shouldn’t use that you can point us to? I wouldn’t be surprised if “Zionist” was at the top.
Oh, for God”s sake yonah, give it up. Nobody is buying that crap anymore, and from you. Shall I go throught your archives and show you some real “baiting” examples. Some beautiful Palestinian baiting in there, yonah.
And saying “kosher pickle” is Jewbaiting? or “Pastrami sandwich”. And by the way yonah, the term schmalz makes the “chicken” redundant. It’s always from a chicken.
Good Lord, yonah how can you stand yourself?
Annie, he’s selling you a load of crap, but I think you know it, and I’m glad of that.
“But I don’t think being Jewish is a license to use Jew baiting terminology.”
Was that a little puff of smoke from the window? Yes, it was. We have a new Pope! And he’s started handing out the bull right away!
I swear, yonah, everytime I think you just can’t stoop any lower, you slither under the bar with ease.
Hey mooser, I expected to hear from you. How’s it going, old buddy, old pal.
I bet you never hang out with yidden up in Seattle and the only time you hang out with yidden is here on mondoweiss, when you get a chance to curse yidden out (i’ll give you credit, you curse out the sonai yisroel as well, good for you, reb yid). maybe we can get a minyan together. Not to daven, chas v’sholom. but to exorcise your dybbuk.
I’m sorry is chas v’sholom too much hebrew and not enough yiddish for you. You know Hebrew, the language they speak in the treife medina which should be called palestine, but the farshtunkene Zionists call Eretz Yisroel.
You know hebrew, the language that the old testament, as your fellow churchgoers call it, was written in.
“Re: MRW’s use of the term Pilpul. This is Jew baiting.”
“Re”? “Re”? What the hell is this yonah, you woke up this morning, and you wrote down this whine, but you just can’t remember who to send it to? “Re”! What this, your imaginary memo to the ADL. Wait a minute, maybe you are making a documentary “This is Jew baiting”.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: yonah, you put the “ick” in pathetic!
And that is one thing this Jew isn’t Wondering about.
Grow up Wondering Jew. Stop trying to censor everything and everyone over absolutely nothing.
Meanwhile, your camp is busy calling Muslims savages more or less and questioning whether Palestinians are imaginary people or figments of the collective Arab imagination (i.e., a plot against world Jewry).
None of the terms you mentioned and are whining about are examples of Jew-baiting. It’s irresponsible to continually abuse the antisemitism card to shut down any kind of examination of Jewish identity when it’s relevant to the issue. And since the issue is Israel-Palestine, its going to KEEP COMING UP.
Get used to it and get over yourself.
“I cannot prove in a court of law that the word Pilpul is being used to Jew bait”
And if you could prove it in a court of law, what then? 7-15 for Jew-baiting? Punitive damages? Or maybe you wish that capital punishment was still in fashion.
My god, what a self-pitying little wretch you are. Listen buddy, your emotional instability is your own problem. Your anger-management is your own problem. You made yourself the person you, and for no other reason that to obtain cheap advantage from Zionist ideology, and avoid somehow (as if one could) all the ambiguities, all the difficulties all the maturity one needs to be a Jew.
So now you’ve ruined your character, you’re jumping at shadows, having a fit over a perfectly innocent expression, and whining like a stuck pig. Well, baby, this is what you’ve turned yourself into, so live with it. But don’t expect us to treat you like a baby.
“And I’m here to tell you, it ain’t cute.”
And we are soooo lucky you are. Without a doubt, without your superior sensitivity to guide us, we’d all be Nazis by now. What a display, yonah, what a sad display. Is this what Zionism does to a guy.
“I, too, was raised in racist America”
ROTFLMSJAO! They were probably so aghast at your chutzpah and presumptuousness, those poor Black Hebrews were rooted to the spot with their mouths open. They thought they had “game” but they hadn’t yet experienced your “beyond chutzpah” style.
And BTW, yonah, your little story is disconnected and makes no sense.
Libra- Do you even know what “pilpul” is, beyond the dictionary definition? Have you ever studied Talmud? Have you ever heard a discourse in Talmud that someone would dismiss as pilpul and compared it to a discourse in Talmud that the person who dismissed “pilpul” would consider to be plain meaning? How old were you when you first heard the term “pilpul”?
“Re: MRW’s use of the term Pilpul. This is Jew baiting.”
Yonah, get off your horsey and take off your spurs. (And put your bag of quarters down.)
Read the MW archives the next time you want to throw a hissy fit.
“What Is Pilpul, And Why On Earth Should I Care About It?” featured here as well.
link to huffingtonpost.com
“Netanyahu At AIPAC: Pilpul In Action!” featured here as well.
link to huffingtonpost.com
Hostage:
link to mondoweiss.net
link to mondoweiss.net
link to mondoweiss.net
link to mondoweiss.net
link to mondoweiss.net
link to mondoweiss.net
“Good Lord, yonah how can you stand yourself?”
What? You don’t like “technical” stuff?
yonah fredman says:
August 12, 2012 at 9:12 pm
“MRW did not use the term because it fit so well. He used the term because he wished to bait the Jews.”>>>>>
Nope, don’t think so. I use the word too, which is the word for how Jewish scholars (according to Jews themselves writing about it at Huffpo) don’t debate “their way to a truth”—what they do is “create a Truth and announce it…” and then they talk about all the facets of ‘their truth’…..but the don’t try to actually question it…their truth is not debatable…sort of like the Pope’s infallibility.
We just use pilpul here to describe the way the zios do the same thing in Israel debates. The zios ‘declare’ a truth….and no matter how thoroughly their truth about Israel is disproven, debunked or demolished…… the zios will never acknowledge the evidence that their truth isn’t really true, they just answer with and keep restating” their truth” over and over again, like they are deaf or blind and have not seen or heard anything anyone said.
Posters on here have put tons and tons of ‘facts’, real evidence, real law, real history, out for the zios…..but their pilpul factor doesn’t allow it thru to them.
It’s very irritating. That why no one has any patience with the hasbara.
he’s started handing out the bull right away!
would that be associated to the bull of rights?
Meanwhile, your camp is busy calling Muslims savages more or less
more or less? more or less? they outright called them savages! in great big blatant ads!!!!
questioning whether Palestinians are imaginary people
questioning? what questioning? they friggin said they were invented!
How old were you when you first heard the term “pilpul”?
about 58.5. isn’t it just a lot of debate or interpretation? what’s so jew baiting about that? i thought they were proud of it! 2 jews 3 opinions and all that. so what’s the big deal? uuuu, like it isn’t a human condition anyway.
omg MRW, your huff po link
help help i’ve stepped in quicksand..now it’s muslim baiting too?
the “Netanyahu At AIPAC: Pilpul In Action!” link is a must read.
MRW and your crowd of defenders: Cliff, Annie, American, Libra and the inimitable Mooser. Let us take the context of MRW’s original post. Which is difficult to do, because there simply is no context.
“Consequences. Consequences. Consequences. Something that never penetrates the Pilpul. Your choice. Your loss.”
Zero context. I can only assume that MRW means Jewish bullshit or Jewish self involved thought. And that is not what pilpul means. Not in its original meaning and not in its adapted meaning. It means casuistry.
What is the casuistry involved in what Aluf Benn wrote, in what Barak and Netanyahu propose? This is not casuistry.
Casuistry is when Menachem Begin at Camp David interprets a specific law, that is resolution 242 to mean something other than its authors intended. That’s what casuistry means. What is the casuistry here? There is none.
It is merely using a Yiddish term or if you want an English word that is easily identifiable as having Yiddish origins and using it instead of bullshit or using it instead of saying “they have their Jewish heads stuck up their Jewish asses and they can’t hear anything outside of their own Jewish thoughts”. It is a wrong use of the word. And why would MRW use the wrong word? I don’t know, but I will guess. Because he wants to use a Yiddish sounding word because it is fun and cute and cutting. But it is merely bad taste.
And if you dudes want to defend using fun, cute and cutting Yiddish words, go right ahead. But don’t be surprised when people mistake antizionism for antisemitism when you have your fun.
If you can explain why the word pilpul makes sense here, then I will take it all back, but I doubt you can do that. So we are left with two possibilities: MRW is stupid, which I know not to be the case, or MRW is having fun using a yiddish word. In which case have your fun. But don’t get on your high horses and pretend that the word is appropriate or that the word is not being used in order to be cute. And maybe Jew baiting is too strong a word, but it is closer to accurate to what was said by MRW, than pilpul was to describe what was said by Aluf Benn or thought by Ehud Barak and Netanyahu.
We just use pilpul here to describe the way the zios do the same thing in Israel debates.
Hostage calls it (pilpul) “bing bong” which is pretty funny.
the “Netanyahu At AIPAC: Pilpul In Action!” link is a must read.
So is the other one, annie. Specifically this:
link to huffingtonpost.com
…and as I wrote in the initial post that started this concern, an utter lack of the recognition or importance of consequences.
‘
“You know hebrew, the language that the old testament, as your fellow churchgoers call it, was written in.”
And the folks just went to Babylon and forgot it right? You might suspect that Hebrew was created in the first centuries bce and ace. Please go to search term apiru and then try to convince us that a “Hebrew’ people was noted to exist in Mesopotamian or Egyptian literature. Then lets challenge the cabal and discuss god/g-d.
We Jews are permitted to bait another Jew. We good old -iggers are allowed to call ourself or lable our fellows that.
“You know hebrew, the language that the old testament, as your fellow churchgoers call it, was written in.”
“My fellow churchgoers” Just what, sir, are you insinuating? I want to make sure before I challenge you to a duel. I don’t care if you are an expert marksman, and I don’t even have a loaded pistol. You, sir, are intimating that I am a Christian! I will die if I must, but that insult must be wiped out, even if it costs my life to do it!
On the other hand, yonah, are you commenting while drunk? You’re really acting like you’re pretty sloshed on slivovitz. And that’s a bait which’ll land any Jew!
But, I notice, not even alcohol can make you brave enough to say what you mean in simple English. I guess you’re not drunk enough to have lost all fear of appearing that ridiculous and slimy. Good for you, pal. I can’t stand a sloppy obstreperous drunk.
“I’m sorry is chas v’sholom too much hebrew and not enough yiddish for you.”
Yonah, I have, many, many times, admitted my deficiencies in Yiddish, and regretted throwing away my opportunity to become fluent, and possibly (with luck and a lot of help) literate in Yiddish. Please don’t rub it in. I jealously guard what little Yiddish I have, for even that small fund of words and expressions, learned from my father and mother and relatives, connects me to my childhood and adolescence.
“I used the term “rigmarole” and the word off my lips sounded like it flowed off my lips because it rhymed with the word “
Yonah, whatever you do, avoid, avoid like the plague, any discussion of old sailing ships and their ground tackle, and their penurious captains, too. You think you had trouble then? Don’t go there, just don’t. If I didn’t like you, I wouldn’t be giving you this good advice.
“would that be associated to the bull of rights?”
If you had ever joined the running of the Papal bulls you wouldn’t be so flippant.
“And the folks just went to Babylon and forgot it right?”
John, notice what he is doing; he is trying to insult me, put me down, by inferring (and implying, no less) that I’m a bad Jew because I know no Modern Hebrew, the language of Israel, but know some Yiddish a language Jews use (and love) all over the world. In essence, he’s calling me a low-class Jew. But of course, he goes on to imply that I might be a convert to Christianity! Oh my God, what an insult.
I don’t know much about Christianity, but I know that my wife calls herself one. And if I have picked up any of her morals, any of her ethics or character, and those morals, ethics and character are due to Christianity, well, all I can say is, here I come, the water’s fine! (besides, I bet I can get in and out of the font without wetting my soft, Jewy center)
I apologise, this is too many comments from me. But that “Jew baiting” bit from yonah was just beyond the pail, and I don’t think he should be allowed to vomit all over the thread like that. Try and hit the bucket next time, yonah.
(That was an example of dry-fly Jew-baiting, here in Washington we have to use artificial lures)
“You know Hebrew, the language they speak in the treife medina which should be called palestine, but the farshtunkene Zionists call Eretz Yisroel.”
Well whadayuno! In vino veritas after all!
Mooser- Don’t you attend church or do you merely entertain the crowd playing the organ and do not imbibe the wine and wafer? (The man who plays the organ for the Ranger hockey games might in fact be a Chicago Black Hawk fans, and it could be the same with you.) You seemed to have positive things to say about Saul/Paul of Tarsus or maybe you just seemed to infer that on your way to dissing me. Maybe I misunderstood.
Annie- I was about 11 or 12 when I first heard the term pilpul. I sat in shul (synagogue) and was forced to listen to a Talmudic discourse for half an hour by a bar mitzvah boy and when it was over, my father dismissed it with a wave of his hand: Pilpul! And here I am 45 year later, forced to hear the word used against Zionists, totally out of context because some shmendrick by the name of David Shasha has defined the entire Ashkenazi tradition as pilpul and feels that all irrational Jewish thought can be dismissed with this word. It is great that yiddish words have gained entrance into the vernacular. It is not so great when the words are used against Jews, as a special mode of cutting us to the quick.
the running of the Pilpul bulls? i had no idea. do tell.
i know i read that mrw too but i still liked the other better, definitely juicier(re: myth). imho. but for pure explanation value the part you sited was excellent.
yonah you are way too hyperventilating over this! i really didn’t read David Shasha as defining the entire Ashkenazi tradition as pilpul , just a whole slew of the zionist myth part.
anyway, there are lots of (good) things/traditions from jewish culture that’s constantly being bragged about so this is just another thing moving into popular lexicon. it really wouldn’t be fair if it was used against us in argument (it likely is) and then non jews were not supposed to turn around and use it? that’s just fair play. but to the point about what mrw said about consequences..don’t you think it might be applicable?
Mooser: In essence, he’s calling me a low-class Jew. But of course, he goes on to imply that I might be a convert to Christianity!
Yonah is doing his own form of Jew-baiting. He is trying – deliberately – to get a rise out of you in the hope that you’ll stoop to his level. Among israelis – and not a few Jews in the US – calling an other Jew a “Christian convert” or closet Christian – is the worst of insults, because they hold Christianity – and Christians – in extremely low esteem (no need for additional proof – erstwhile yonah provided all that’s needed to be able to form a picture of his inner mental landscape).
On top of it he insults Yiddish, implying it is inferior somehow to Hebrew – the often poorly-resurrected language of biblical mythologists.
That, mind you, is from one, who is, by his own account, a failed oleh. There is nothing more vile than the venom of one who did not live up to their own view of themselves. In Israel, one such as himself, is the one held in the lowest of esteems – lower than a Christian, possibly even lower than an Arab (believe it or not – in Israel, Palestinians actually are respected – grudgingly – for standing up for themselves. Of course, respect does not equal love).
They say that there is no fury worse than a scorned oleh’s. No failure that stings more sharply. Our yonah has been directing bile lately every-which-way-but-loose, and is obviously spoiling for fight.
This time, however, especially his last comment to you, seems to have crossed the line. He hurls “Christian” at you much like they used to hurl “jew” at the spanish converts of the 15th century. IMO, what he is doing – baiting another commenter – calling him names (“Christian!”, “Yiddish speaker!” -gevalt! as best he could master) is a banning worthy offense. At the very least, he should be sent into exile for a few months, and I, for one, intend to report him for sheer mean-spiritedness and well, linguistic idiocy – denying pilpul it’s proper idiomatic place among the righteously spoken.
Of course he may report me back for having once called him Jonah. To which I have a ready defense – I do so love whales and the image was, well, irresistable. Quite.
“And here I am 45 year later, forced to hear the word used against Zionists, “…yonah
If our purpose was to cut your tender Jewish sensitives to the quick instead of just describing the techinque we’d be using some nasty slang like hasa ..for pigs that don’t fly straight…to describe it.
Pipul isn’t anywhere near that.
Quit being a whinybaby.
@Danaa,
Yonah revealed his utter lack of erudition, in modern Judaic scholarship or otherwise, when he called David Shasha a shmendrick. I received Shasha’s emailed newsletter cum magazine for years; deep thoughtful articles from Jewish scholars from all over the world, wonderful stuff (see Tony Karon’s praise for him).
This putz thinks he’s in a league where he can judge Shasha…but “What can you expect from a pig but a grunt?”
@Yonah,
“Let us take the context of MRW’s original post. Which is difficult to do, because there simply is no context.”
“Consequences. Consequences. Consequences. Something that never penetrates the Pilpul. Your choice. Your loss.” Referring, of course, to Israeli pilpul, in the previous post.
The logic still stands, even though it escapes you.
There is no point arguing against hasbara, except if you can expose it for the benefit of third parties. When one lie collapses they switch to another. They know they are lying. But if somehow you can cut through the crap and get them to reveal their true perceptions and motives at least you might learn something.
Sometimes I get so angered by some hasbara article I come across that I protest to the author. One Israeli “scholar” had written a piece arguing against the view that sonic booms from overflights of Gaza at night did psychological harm to children. So we argued about the effects of sonic booms. I told him he was ignoring this study and distorting the results of that study, that he was neglecting important factors, and so forth. Eventually he wrote: “I’m puzzled why you devote so much attention to sonic booms. After all, we [Israelis] do much worse things to them [Palestinians].” So he knew all along it was a “bad thing”; he knew that in seeking to discredit Palestinian complaints he was lying. Just part of the propaganda war.
“Mooser- Don’t you attend church or do you merely entertain the crowd playing the organ and do not imbibe the wine and wafer?”
I am , to the best of my ability (admittedly, not so great yet) an organist-keyboard player, I play to the best of my ability wherever I am asked to, or paid to play. It’s not “entertainment” you are taking part in a religious service which uses music. I have played church services, and glad to do it. I have a great personal preference for “Gospel” style organ. And if a Synagogue ever approaches me, I’d be glad to play “Near the Cross” “Amazing Grace” or even “The Blood Will Ne’er Lose its Power” or “Down at the Cross” for their services, too. All they have to do is ask, and we’ll “Lift Every Voice and SIng” together. You know, “Music to Dahvan By” would be a great title for the next CD.
MRW, thanks for the heads up in David Shasha (was not familiar). Also your comments and analysis above are interesting. But now, look what you did – getting Yonah all riled up and resorting to pilpulim and denounciations!
Sometimes I wonder why do certain individuals choose to engage with commenters here if their psyche is so brittle. I wish i could say masochistic tendencies are a Jewish trait but alas, there’s plenty of proof it’s quite ubiquitous.
“It is not so great when the words are used against Jews, as a special mode of cutting us to the quick.”
Jonah, I will not watch a tribal bro’ exsanguinate in front of my eyes, here, take my handkerchief…oh wait, I’ll go get you a clean paper towel or something.
Your story, again, is disconnected, and makes no sense, except it’s just a little too obvious you have to go to almost manic extremes to generate the self-pity you’re addicted to. But the disconnects are troubling, you sound like you’re coming apart at the seams. I suggest you consult a Rabbi. Religious personnel can be a great source of comfort and counseling if you prefer not to become involved with the mental health professional system.
You know, yonah, if it wasn’t for the fact that you look through my windows at night, have interviewed extensively everyone I’ve ever known, including my long gone parents and relatives, and in general, know me better than I know myself (it wouldn’t be hard) I might be tempted to think (purely, of course as a defensive, self-protective reaction, you understand) that you project your own problems on to me. But I know that’s ridiculous, given your omniscience and clairvoyance.
You know what, Annie, I think yonah has spent too many hours at Mondoweiss, and whether he likes it or not, sort of an inverse Stockholm syndrome, if you get my drift. And it’s causing some disturbing experiences. It’s become impossible for him to deny, so he’s desperately trying to convince himself every word is somehow anti-Semitic or Jew-baiting. Pastrami Sandwich! Kosher pickle! BAGEL BAGEL BAGEL!
Chicken Soup. But having spent so many years investing himself in a tribal superiority which can’t get him the individual adequacy and balance every person needs some of, and having trained himself to disparage and disdain everyone else, or more truthfully, anybody else, he has very few places to turn. Welcome to the bed you made, yonah. Of course, I don’t know him, so this is merely hypothesising. He will have to tell us if I am right, and he will.
Yonah, you really need to see somebody, if you don’t mind my saying so. Non-Jews are using Yiddish, paying us the highest compliment possible actually taking Jewish words in their mouth and liking them finding them useful, clever, amusing, insightful, and you are saying ‘no, that’s bad, you are only doing this to hurt me’?
You sad little man.
““Mooser- Don’t you attend church or do you merely entertain the crowd playing the organ and do not imbibe the wine and wafer?”
I think I’m having a revelation here. Mooser is God.
Or to be more precise, a device devised by God. How each of us responds to this little troll defines who we are.
Danaa and other defenders of Mooser- Mooser is like your mascot, your pet. You invite people in to participate in this comments section. (Admittedly, you don’t invite people in, it is Phil who invites people in. He is the one who believes in dialogue. You believe in Gilad Atzmon type hatred and disdain and rhetoric for anyone who dares hold a different opinion than you. Maybe you are more accurate than Phil, for the path towards a better future in the Holy Land probably will lead through bloodshed and thus dialogue is in fact not part of the path, or not part of the path at this point in time. nonetheless my analogy does not work unless I say that “you invite people in to participate in the comments section.”) And then your little cute mascot, dog pisses on your guests and you giggle and laugh and think it so cute. And then when that same guest kicks your cute little dog, you get all up in arms and do your own type of pissing.
And guess what for every masochist, there is a sadist. And Mooser (and your hero, Gilad Atzmon) certainly fit the score on sadism.
(For Mooser’s benefit. Dog in Yiddish is hunt, pronounced, hoont, rhyming with a quick shouldn’t, and not c…, and in Hebrew is kelev. If you want more lessons on either Jewish language, I am helpless regarding Ladino, I’d be more than willing to help you. You can even borrow one of the Old Testament’s from your audience at the church and I can direct you to the verses where the word “kelev” appears. So I was correct: you play for the Rangers, but in fact are a Chicago Black Hawks fan.)
MRW- You are correct. I have an utter lack of erudition. But fortunately I have a friend who does not lack erudition and I sent him David Shasha’s articles and he responded. And though he did not use the word shmendrick, I think his words will suffice to deal with the great David Shasha.
He wrote: Yonah,
You have been privileged to hear shiurim from people such as Rav Lichtenstein, whose methodology was developed over many years of learning with Reb Yoshe Ber, who in turn was the product of intensive private tuition with his father Reb Moshe son of Reb Chaim etc., etc.. . Many adjectives have been applied to these figures, but “Irrational” is not one of them. ( About twenty years ago, a book was published by Norman Solomon : “The Analytic Movement: Rabbi Hayim Soloveitchik and his Circle,” which details how meticulously rational and text based these people were. Reaching beyond Brisker pilpul, I would recommend Rav Shlomo Yosef Zevin’s “Ishim v’Shitot” for chapters on the Rogatchover, Reb Meir Simcha of Dvinsk etc. A couple of years ago, Shai Wosner wrote an outstanding PhD dissertation for the law faculty at Hebrew U. on the legal reasoning of Rav Shimon Shkop within its’ Lithuanian intellectual context. Reading it increased my pride in our people’s genius for and dedication to reason and learning).
These great teachers analyzed Gemara through pilpul and prided themselves on the notion that by so doing, they were following and developing a rigorously logical, scientific like approach to the text under analysis. J.B.’s “Halakhic Man” gives a very insightful look into the mind and soul of these masters of pilpul. Rav Soloveitchik compares the foundations of pilpul, i.e. the halachic principles and rules of Talmudic engagement binding upon all its’ devotees, to mathematical axioms or platonic forms, eternal and immutable, existing in an absolute state of objective Truth. All this is already well known to you, so forgive me for going over such well trodden ground.
I don’t know if David Shasha is a good Jew, but I do know that he is not a learned Jew. His equating pilpul with irrationality evidences a lack of any familiarity with Talmudic learning or scholarship. Anyone who has first hand knowledge of what serious study of gemara or halacha involves ( the scrupulous sensitivity and attention to every nuance and detail, the necessary clarity of mind and intellectual probity etc.) would never think to describe that process which has developed such analysis to an art form, i.e. pilpul, as “irrational.” ( By explaining pilpul to be a kind of ” rhetoric,” he totally misinterprets its’ meaning. Pilpul is a type of dialectic, a sophisticated form of systematic reasoning and exposition having either moral, legal, literary or philosophical applications. Its’ aim is to discover the greater reality and ultimate truth about things. Outside of Gemara, the closest thing to pilpul is Socratic dialectic. Socrates was a master pilpulist! The entire western philosophical tradition is built upon pilpul. Read any of the great philosophers of the middle ages, their arguments are all written in a pilpulistic form. The Summa of Thomas Aquinas is pure pilpul. Unfortunately, people blessed with sharp analytical skills and tools, often find themselves cursed and reviled by compatriots and kinsmen not so favored. It is terribly irritating, even humiliating, to find one’s positions and policies constantly being challenged and overturned in debate with another, more skilled logician. The medieval church condemned the writings of St. Thomas. We all know what fate befell Socrates).
Shasha’s historical outline of the ashkenazic intellectual tradition of pilpul reveals even more deplorable ignorance and prejudice, e.g. his claims that Rashi insidiously rewrote the text of the Talmud or that the Tosaphot pilpulistically substituted an alternative reality to enforce the status quo, deny social equality and establish the rabbis as a privileged extralegal body to dominate the people.( Regarding the latter, it is woefully dishonest to use Dr. Hayim Soloveitchik’s writings as evidence. Even in the quoted excerpt, Professor Soloveitchik describes the rabbis as “true leaders” looking out for “the needs of their people.” One should add, with some irony, that Soloveitchik himself, the son of Reb Yoshe Ber, is a master pilpulist, and was offered the Chair in Talmud at YU upon his father’s passing). In short, Shasha’s condemnation of pilpul is based not in any objective knowledge, but in a personal animus against ashkenazic Jewish Zionist culture as expessed in his article “Losing the Jewish Soul,” where he discusses how his people were persecuted by the Ashkenazim of the Zionist state .
I have neither the time nor inclination to answer any more of the author’s so called arguments. Railing against pilpul is just another variation on the already tired and vacuous Christian anti-Semitic screeds against what, in earlier, less tolerant and enlightened times, used to be termed “talmudic logic” or “rabbinic sophistry.” I’m afraid even a long pilpul would be of no help for a Jew taking up such discredited positions today.
End quote.
I am a putz not in the league to judge Shasha, but I would pit my anonymous friend up against Shasha any day of the week. (not Shabbos or holidays, but any other day.)
@Stephen Shenfield,
In other words, pilpul.
YF: Dog in Yiddish is hunt, pronounced, hoont…
Yonah, this sounds exactly how Germans pronounce “Hund” and guess what? It means “dog” too!
Sadly it seems everyone is plagiarising Yiddish these days. Can’t you get a decent copyright lawyer to put a stop to this before it gets out of hand? Because otherwise you can be sure the next thing to be ripped off will be Hebrew. And only a freier would let that happen.
“…Yonah, you really need to see somebody, if you don’t mind my saying so. Non-Jews are using Yiddish, paying us the highest compliment possible actually taking Jewish words in their mouth and liking them finding them useful, clever, amusing, insightful, and you are saying ‘no, that’s bad, you are only doing this to hurt me’?
You sad little man…”
The irony, Mooser, is that you could be looking in a mirror here.
I don’t mean just the ‘sad little man’ part. You’re guilty of everything else you accuse Yonah of.
…you sad little man.
“Libra- Do you even know what “pilpul” is, beyond the dictionary definition? Have you ever studied Talmud? Have you ever heard a discourse in Talmud that someone would dismiss as pilpul and compared it to a discourse in Talmud that the person who dismissed “pilpul” would consider to be plain meaning? “
Well, whatever that is, it’s certainly confusing. Is it ‘pilpul’?
Good analysis, MRW!
@ MRW
Obviously Netanyahu and Barak will ring Obama’s bell at precisely the right time–when, and if it looks like a really tight POTUS race. His own second term is priority number one for Obama. Mitt’s already on board the Israeli jet because his first priority is his first term as POTUS. The Israeli regime is in full crisis mode. Unlike the US, the EU squeaks about Israeli human rights abuses, but it’s currently throwing more very material favors at Israel.
Not only has Pakistan took a public stand with Iran, but Saudi Arabia has now stated that it will not allow Israeli jets over its airspace, headed for Iran. But that’s just for home consumption–a perceived US green light would give those Israeli bombers the air space over SA they may need.
China gains whether Iran is attacked or not.
“He said the hate is visceral now BECAUSE of American actions; they feel utterly betrayed”
And US Army Officers are high-fiving each other, pumping their fists, and yelling “Mission Acomplished”. Count on it, that’s their job security.
““He said the hate is visceral now BECAUSE of American actions; they feel utterly betrayed”
And US Army Officers are high-fiving each other, pumping their fists, and yelling “Mission Acomplished”. Count on it, that’s their job security.”
Just to risk responding to you seriously, I don’t think so.
I think a lot of US army officers (and at least one enlisted man I know) are tired of getting frog-marched into pointless ‘wars’ under conditions that more or less guarantee eventual defeat.
Another thing.
You know all those Syrian rebels being trained in Turkey, given Kalashnikovs and cash, then told go fight the Israeli Army in Syria? Well, it’s a short 400 miles from Aleppo to Urmia, Iran. Check a map.
The only threat to the north of Iran is Azerbaijan, whose military has been US-trained of late. EXCEPT that many of the Mullahs in Iran are Azeris. Who is going to be killing their own religious leaders? Azerbaijan controls the base at Baku, but their navy has only 2200 people in it, they couldn’t fill 1/2 the QEII. The Russian port above them is Makhachkala in the Caspian Sea. The Azeris have no warships, just put-puts by comparison. Russia parks some heavies at their port and could control the maritime access to Iran via the Caspian in a heartbeat. The Volvograd military base is a skip and a jump away. Threatening WWIII, if Israel wants to go that far.
The US just told Barak he was bullshitting about a new NIE saying the Iranians have nukes.
Lastly, world opinion against Israel for attacking Iran after their earthquake last week would be massive disdain.
…and with the end of the Olympics, fewer distractions.
Sad to say but I totally agree with the headline. Obama has always been a weakling and always will be. It is illogical to expect courage to come from a coward.
“It is illogical to expect courage to come from a coward.”
In this area, Obama was screwed the day he let the military convince him that he, Obama, was the genius who could make the Bush anti-terrorism program work. And the chump fell for it. Oh well, he’ll learn.
here’s what Obama should say:
“Out intelligence assessment remains the same – Iran does not have a nuclear weapons capability nor are they on a path to one any time in the near future or even a few years out … Israel’s own intelligence and security agencies agree … the push for war is by politicians in Israel seeking political gain – which is disgusting, because lives would be lost in any attack – an attack which is unnecessary now or in the near future”
We are teetering on loss of empire. The American Establishment knows this. And hell will freeze over if it lets even the israelis take us to an untimely war that they already know is more loss than gain.
The israelis can bark all they want and our politicians can play politics with them and write up stupid, ineffectual anti-iran bills all they want – they ain’t gonna get a strike – not even Bush Jnr would give that to them cuz the movers and shakers of Empire, the American Establishment, simply wouldn’t let him. And currently, the American Establishment, is already blocking the israelis by working with surrounding countries, introducing a silent no-fly zone for israel en route to Iran – not for love of Iran or hate of israel, but for the stability of our weakening Empire, for our own interest.
Israelis can twist the arms of Romney and Obama all they want and it won’t mean a thing – cuz in practice, matters of war and peace ain’t up to the president, it’s up to the the American Establishment, composed of the highest and most influential eggheads in the Pentagon, in Homeland Security, and in Mega Corpos. They like their Empire’s power and perks, they benefit both themselves and Brand America when they’re in charge, they are the deciders of what’s best for Empire, no lobby, no shlobby, no one else. And RUTHLESSLY, they decide what’s best. Superior Defense and Industry are the hallmarks of a successful and enduring empire. Empire masters know this and don’t play high-risk games with either – in fact, they happily start endless wars overseas to enhance the bulk of Empire’s muscle and cash, but not to deflate it. This is what motivates empire: ultimately, it’s own interests.
Yes, Aipac has infiltrated all tiers of power in our system, but they have not, and never will, be able to sit at the round table of the Empire’s Puppet Masters.
The American Establishment does not support a strike on Iran and israel can’t go it alone – otherwise they woulda done it already. It is all about timing for Empire, they know a war right now will not only weaken us, but it will also strengthen our competitors for superpowerdom. Don’t get me wrong, Empire wants to smash Iran and take it’s resources from it by force, but now is not the right time for such an adventurous maneuver. We are gaining from delaying an attack, and ironically, so are the Iranians – while the israelis are left out in the cold, bitching and screaming and furiously,desperately, scheming.
I’m not too fussed by the war charade for the time being. I’m actually feeling real cool to be an American at the moment: WE ARE WINNING AT THE OLYMPICS! YAAAY!! Like, we’re leaving everyone waaaaay behind! Yaaaaaaaay!
Sorry israel, not a single medal for you and we got ehm 104 medals so far. And you ain’t gonna rattle my nerves with your crazed delusions of grandeur either.
Little hands on giant drums of war, puh.
@ Taxi
My offer to hunt you down and buy you a crate of Napa Valley’s finest is still open if we make it through this year without war with Iran.
TAXI- “We are teetering on loss of empire.”
Who is we? Global finance has never been stronger, nor more potentially fragile. The Iranians are a potential threat to the petro dollar, among other things. We are already engaged in low intensity warfare against Iran with the sanctions, special operations forces, and funding of anti-regime terrorists. Where is there any significant push-back? Europe, NATO, Saudi Arabia, Wall Street and the MIC all seem to be onboard. China lacks significant force projection and won’t get into a serious conflict with the empire in the Middle East. Russia is no longer the Soviet empire and can’t stand against the forces aligned against Iran. Look what is happening in Syria. Both Russia and China have had relatively weak responses to US/NATO/GCC actions so far. There are considerable forces in position for an assault.
Also, “The monarchical Gulf Cooperation Council, the so-called Arab NATO, has expanded military ties with the U.S., and its six members, along with 11 other countries, will join the U.S. in a massive military exercise off the Iranian coast in September.” link to counterpunch.org A lot of things are occurring which suggests that the empire is committed to regime change in Syria and Iran. Because of all of this, I have come to the conclusion that there is a better than even chance of a US/Israel attack on Iran in October (October surprise), unless sanctions and covert ops bring about regime change before. The primary reasons will be geo-strategic. I doubt there will be an invasion, they will simply destroy the infrastructure and the society.
Keith,
I disagree with every bit of analysis you counter: from your economic optimism to our geo-political maneuvers, to your underestimating the powers of the Five Emerging powers on the superpowerdom stage: China, Russia, India, South Africa and Brazil.
Sorry I don’t have the time (or inclination) to get into it today, but for sure I don’t buy the cliche of an “October Surprise”.
Time will tell – we can resume this discussion in November, discuss this “October Surprise” that the msm is so fond of promoting for obvious reasons (advertising sales + zioboting).
Personally, I feel that I know a heckalot more about the mid east than any main stream media outlet and their badly lit talking heads. And until ‘friends of israel’ figure out how to protect tel aviv from multiple-fronted massive attacks if they strike at Iran, the odds are that no strike will happen.
Taxi: I disagree with every bit of analysis you counter…
Maybe so on the short-term outcome but interestingly what you write here is pure Keith:
Israelis can twist the arms of Romney and Obama all they want and it won’t mean a thing – cuz in practice, matters of war and peace ain’t up to the president, it’s up to the the American Establishment, composed of the highest and most influential eggheads in the Pentagon, in Homeland Security, and in Mega Corpos. They like their Empire’s power and perks, they benefit both themselves and Brand America when they’re in charge, they are the deciders of what’s best for Empire, no lobby, no shlobby, no one else. And RUTHLESSLY, they decide what’s best.
I agree with your assessment as far as it goes, but if the forces you mention were so overwhelmingly in the driver’s seat there wouldn’t be this level of truly (imo) tense public and private chatter about attacking Iran. Instead of going to Israel for consultations (presumably to tell them to stuff it), Panetta could have just picked up the phone and reiterated the obvious to Israeli leadership.
But the Israelis know what the score is in terms of the DC political influences. They keep pushing with enough power to turn, as you point out, what should be a perfunctory non-starter into a contended debate. As long as the debate is hotly and “open-endedly”contended, the outcome is unknown. We know this because if a firm decision had been made, privately, the public debate (about US involvement, certainly) would tail off rapidly.
Ultimately, I agree (well maybe more hope than agree) that we will not attack Iran and will stop Israel from doing it as well, but the fact that this is being debated like it might realistically happen shows that the Israel Lobby is going head-to-head with the forces you describe, and beating them back to at least a public draw. That is incredible power. Just incredible. Therefore, I think US involvement in an Iran war/attack is still in play. Maybe 50/50, right up until it isn’t.
ritzl,
Why should the American Establishment care one bit what israelis are saying in public? Their only concern is that israel doesn’t strike without a green light from the Establishment first, thus dragging us into another mid east war that is most inopportune for us. Currently, it doesn’t look like the American Establishment trusts israel one bit and are therefore silently taking all measures necessary to block all israeli air-strikes en route to Iran.
And you’d better believe if the israelis still found a way to strike Iran without our approval first, some serious punishment of israel is already planned. We have a history of dropping rogue allies when they prove a costly liability to the American Establishment. Israel is no exception – despite their bff-ness with our politicians.
The Empire and it’s well-being is above politics – it doesn’t care what’s going on politically in the tiers below it. It’s ONLY concern is self-preservation and the continuing advancement and wealth of Empire.
And be damned the fool who gets in it’s way.
It’s not just “what Israelis are saying in public” per se, Taxi. It’s how and to what extent those public pronouncements both create political space for the private influencing, and indicate the success of that private influencing.
The indicators, to me, show that we are moving closer to the Israeli positions on this. Principally, by precluding (maybe not entirely, tbh), through actions, a diplomatic outcome to the Iranian nuclear “negotiations.”
This is a worthy discussion and could and should go on at length. My base disagreement though is that I don’t think the forces of Empire are capable of being as collective and/or “self-aware” as you feel they are. I think you’re right that these forces exist and are powerful, but they are discrete, transitory, and short-term in outlook. That means that they are highly susceptible to short-term gain motivations (political or business) at the expense of the long-term self-interest you point out.
Taken together, I think that makes End of Empire more a result of a process that generates discrete, unanticipated, self-diminishing (for the empire beneficiaries) effects, than it is a (or several) point-to pivotal event to be collectively resisted and/or avoided.
Shorter version: I don’t think “they’ll” see it (EoE) coming.
FWIW. Cheers.
Au contraire, ritzl, the American Establishment specializes in ‘long-term’ strategy. The short-term thinking is the lower domain of politicians.
They sometimes take decisions today that only make sense 40-50 years from now – empire sense that is.
Thanks for engaging with me on this.
No problem. I hope you’re right and that this inevitable and/or ongoing clash might be revisited under less apocalyptic circumstances.
RE: “Sorry israel, not a single medal for you and we got ehm 104 medals so far. And you ain’t gonna rattle my nerves with your crazed delusions of grandeur either.”
Israel cares more about lebensraum than it does about wholesome olympic medals and neighborly competition with the nations of the world.
There’s barely been a shekel to spare in Israel for its Olympic hopes; but just this week, Israel approved a budget of NIS 8.3 million to transport a few mobile homes from Migron to a nearby settlement. This means that the 50 illegal settlement families that reside in Migron will receive nearly as much money from the state as Israel invests in all its professional sports associations combined.
I doubt most Jews are as pro-war as the leadership. I think they’re smarter than that (of course I shouldn’t speak for them). Sadly, if things go wrong (which is highly likely), it may become politically expedient to blame “the Jews.” I hope Obama is canny enough to outflank (politically) Netanyahoo on this.
the Balkan wars were started by politicians trading on old ethnic tensions to increase their personal power – hideous, evil and look how it worked out (with all the innocent killed) … Netanyahu and Barak are on the same path and they will be the ones that destroy israel if they are allowed to continue on this course
Surprise! Americans are not buying the Iran-is-evil narrative anymore!
Just take a look at the comments below this picture:
link to dailypaul.com
I do believe that the days of the puppet masters are numbered and Americans are waking up.