After Mitt Romney’s fundraiser at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on July 30, I met Marc Zell, an American-born settler living in Tekoa in the occupied territories who had attended the event and was “high,” he said, from meeting the candidate for the first time. Zell is most famous in the U.S. for formerly being the law partner of neoconservative Doug Feith, who served in the Bush administration.
Zell told me that American Jews must alert other Jews to the threat Barack Obama poses by failing to counteract the global “delegitimization” of Israel. I challenged him on this point and he agreed to discuss Jewish identity with me.
In the conversation above, he says that he moved to the occupied territories because of concerns about American Jewish identity. “We need to be separate,” he said. Rather than allow our identities to become “diluted” in America, we need to maintain a “separate stream.” The world is “hostile” to Jewish values, Zell went on, Iran intends to destroy Jews; and Israel’s Palestinian and Arab neighbors “don’t want us here” and will seize the opportunity to “drive us out.”
All this in spite of the fact that the “miracle” of Israel has fostered Palestinian growth, he said. Why then the hue and cry about Palestinian conditions? Because, he said, Arabs only want to live with Jews if Jews are second-class citizens…
Even if I take a different view on Jewish identity – after all, Jewish achievement surged after the Haskalah, which was all about Westernizing which in turn requires you to leave the ghetto Zell so badly wants to go back to – I can still respect someone’s view who essentially wants to live a seperate life with only Jews.
It’s neither illegal or immoral. The problem is when that’s based on bulldozing other people’s homes, and when they react, say that the ‘world is against us’.
Also, his separatism isn’t based on a true love for Judaism rather than it is around a very fearful view of the world. It’s not a man open to change or embracing the fullest intellectual breadth he can; it’s a man running back into the corner, fearful of every stranger and of every shadow.
If this is the Judaism he longs to, then how can he be surprised that most of us begun to leave that tortured view(many, though, half-heartedly) centuries ago?
Krauss,
Zell’s comments about seeking a balance between “tribalism” and universalism were actually fairly nuanced — certainly much more nuanced than the kind of language one hears from many conspicuous pro-Israel activists and militants in the United States.
But still: Zell is caught up in and controlled by a political movement spearheaded by ethno-religious nationalist zealots who hold nuance in contempt. Benjamin Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman are very different personalities than Zell.
Zell is impressed by Mitt Romney. Despite his Harvard degrees and wealth, Romney strikes me as another Sarah Palin — wacky and not very bright. If Romney were not a militant Mormon Zionist, someone pandering to Zell’s deepest biases and emotional needs, Zell would probably be smart enough to notice that there are serious problems with Romney.
Romney is exceptionally bright.
He scored perfectly on the SAT scores, before they dumbed them down and made them easier to practice on. (The correlation on SAT scores and IQ scores was over 0.80, which is deemed as very strong statistically, before the changes in the mid-1990s. In fact, many psychologists called it a ‘thinly disguised IQ test’).
Romney placed in the top 5 % of Harvard Business School, after the meritocratic revolution while at the same time graduating in the top 20 % from Harvard Law School.
Romney’s IQ is most likely quite a bit over 150.
But none of that matters. FDR was less intelligent than Herbert Hoover who, like Romney, had a very high IQ. Yes he was a disaster and FDR had far better policies.
So people overestimate the importance of IQ. Romney’s very bright, exceptionally so, but his policies are disastrous. Although I’m coming from the Keynesian left here.
Nonetheless, Romney has not much to do with either Zell or this topc.
As for Zell’s nuance; he’s weighing his words in front of an intelligent critic and most likely expects many, if not most viewers to be Jewish. And he expects them to be relatively hostile. In other words; he is in Hasbara mode to some extent but even so, he can’t hide his visceral disregard for the humanistic values Phil espouses and that I and many others cherish.
“He scored perfectly on the SAT scores, before they dumbed them down and made them easier to practice on.”
Jeez Krauss, you are really something. Look, I can’t tell you how big Romney’s dick is, but the man has been blathering all over the media for weeks now. He’s dumb as a brick these days. I don’t care what score he got on a test he was probably coached, or crammed to, thirty years ago. Maybe he’s fallen on his head since then, I don’t know, but if you can’t figure out how dumb that man is (not to mention his other plainly visible character defects) you got a problem, buddy.
Mooser, protip: facts beat slogans. Not that you would listen to anything even close to facts. That’s the charm with you. I guess?
@ Mooser
Yeah, Mitt must have fell on his head–maybe he did it like Krauthammer? Actually, that’s an insult to Krauthammer–Mitt’s barely above Perry in handling nuance in public at least–it’s hard to believe Mitt even knows any nuance. Lots of lawyers are like plumbers.
Yes, yopu’re so right, Krauss, just like you, everything Romney tells us about himself is true. And I can sure see the super-political intelligence guiding his campaign.
BTW, Kraus, did you know an angel (“Moroni”) visited the US within living historical memory and deposited a 500 page book on Golden Plates? No really, just ask Romney about it.
“Lots of lawyers are like plumbers.”
Mentally perhaps, but do lawyers have all those physical skills, too?
Agree with Krauss. Romney is an act. He’s trying to appeal to the common man, or what he thinks is the common man. It’s something George W. Bush did, and something his dad George HW did, though he has a greater distance than his son does between what he really is and his public, campaign persona. (I saw George HW in person once, not in a political context. He was far more assured, weighty and impressive in person, even physically so, than ever you saw on TV; almost a different person. And he’s still acting when he comes on TV with Barbara these days.) It’s something the upper-middle and upper classes learn to do by osmosis, when they have to deal with lower strata, and requires a dumbing-down posture. Therefore, conclude not that Romney is dumb, but that he’s lying in all his words and demeanor. Conclude that he knows exactly what’s wrong economically- and policy-wise, that he knows the classical, practical approach to the common welfare is the best, and that he’s chosen to pander to the right. Having said that, don’t conclude that he’ll moderate if he wins, because he moderates his pandering with almost nothing.
“It’s neither illegal or immoral. “
Oh, really, O’Reilly? Okay, let’s assume we’re not even talking about Palestine, but a Western country. So you think there’s nothing immoral or illegal about Jews have separate age-of-consent laws? Nothing immoral or illegal about Jews being exempted from the truancy or education requirements? What about the obligations of parents to seek medical attention for their kids, vaccinations, certified and licensed health practitioners? So should Jews be too scared of their own “Jewish leaders” to seek redress in the courts? To go to the police with rape charges? What about elder abuse? Should Jews be exempt from those requirements? Can Jews be required to pay “taxes” to the “Jewish Community”?
And O BTW Krauss, you deep thinker you, who will “represent” the Jews in relations with the “host country”? You, naturally?
And so you figure everybody else, all the Gentiles, are each worthy of being regarded by their government and society as an individual, but Jews aren’t worthy of that? Why do you dislike Jews so much, think so little of them, or do you imagine they will elect you leader by acclimation? Either that or you have some very media ideas about what life was like for Jews before they escaped.
@ Mooser
“And so you figure everybody else, all the Gentiles, are each worthy of being regarded by their government and society as an individual, but Jews aren’t worthy of that?”
Of course Jews are worthy of being treated as individuals by the US government and American society. OTOH, is it OK to ask if “all the Gentiles” are also equally worthy of being regarded as a special group to be catered to? How about the white Gentiles, or do they get to be only a mere collection of pushover, divided individuals (with racist roots)?
You’re a goddam lawyer, and you don’t know what the conception of an “individual” is under law? Thank God you don’t try to thread pipe or solder.
“It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.” — Charles Darwin
@ Krauss, your distinctions are well taken here. But where would such a Jew as Marc Zell be if he couldn’t count on more anti-semitism in the world? The US gives a clue, yes? No wonder he left. There’s just not enough of it here to make him feel comfortable in his special skin. So he moved to Israel where he says, in the region “Arabs only want to live with Jews if Jews are second-class citizens.”
This regional situation, as perceived by him, allows him to have his cake and eat it too, i.e., he can live nicely in Israel and its occupied territories, where, respectively, only Jews get to live as first-class citizens, the Arabs living as second-class citizens, or, in the OT, no class non-citizens.
Gives meaning to Zell’s life.
Hannah Arendt says of this whole line of thinking, in The Origins of Totali-tarianism, p. 7 (1973 ed.), that “. . . eternal anti-Semitism would imply an eternal guarantee of Jewish [corporate] existence. This superstition is a secularized travesty of the idea of eternity inherent in a faith in chosenness.”
“There’s just not enough of it here to make him feel comfortable in his special skin.”
No, conditions here do not allow him to have power over other Jews. Oh he can persuade or cajole, but that’s about it. That’s not enough for him. Now, if only there was enough anti-Semitism that Jews didn’t have a choice, if they have reduced or non-existent civil rights, why they would have to retreat to a “Jewish community” and put up with him.
There you have it. He’s got a case of intra-ethnic megalomania.
Zell is an ideologue at heart. If he were Muslim, he’d probably be an “Islamist”, if a Christian, he’d be in the Pat Robertson crowd. If Hindu in India he’d look the other way when Hindu fundamentalists look for Christian and Muslim backs to break. There are conservative, religious people, even those with an eschatological mindset, even Jewish settlers, who remain sensitive at heart to their fellow human beings, sensitive enough to have an evolving view of the place and influence of their ideologies in their milieus. Too bad they don’t seem to influence more strongly what actually ends up going down…
“I can still respect someone’s view who essentially wants to live a seperate life with only Jews.”
So, Krauss, you support the idea that a Jewish girl who is raped by her father, or a Rabbi, should not be able to go to the local police? And conversely, a Jewish girl, if told to by her father or a Rabbi, should make false accusations of rape against anyone they choose?
So you figure a child who is circumcised by a drunk mohel with hepatitis, his parents should not be able to bring charges, create a court-case over it?
And naturally, no Jewish girl or boy should know there is any alternative to the marriage arrangements their parents (or whoever, in the “Jewish community)
have made for them? That they should have no alternatives to the education their parents and Rabbi wish to provide? (Hopefully, they will teach them how to spell “separate”)
And of course, a Jewish person should be forced to work for Jewish businesses, at whatever wage their Rabbi says in Halachically correct?
And naturally, you would relieve the Gentile court-system of having to deal with Jewish transgressions? I mean, we could set up a “Jewish court” to support this separate Jewish community in very little time. Just as long as it takes to gather a pile of stones.
Buying a couple of houses on the same street, or renting or buying a couple of apartments or condos in the same building, does not a “Jewish community” make.
But than again, I bet you’ve thought just as deeply about what makes a “separate ” Jewish community as you have everything else.
Philip, the multi-cultural experiment in Euorpe has failed. The melting pot of America is seeing more and more realize that there is a need to maintain religious identity. Your own choice to marry a non-Jew creates a problem for your own kids if they ever want to choose Judusim as their road in life. The Reform movement does not think far ahead. Whoever drumbed it into your head that it is a bad thing to cultivate and grow, or at least maintain a specific identity, has lead you astray. The one world, everyone must be equal thing, is both unobtainable and dangerous. It saddens many that you, and many like you, feel a need to apologize for being Jewish.
Marc Zell spoke very well. I am surprised that you published this interview. If you think you are trying to highlight some negative aspect of Jewish thinking, you came of second best.
giladg,
What is the difference between your views and those of David Duke or Kevin MacDonald?
There are those who will attack anyone who is content with their lives when they themselves are not. This has nothing to do with material gain or standing. The Torah has been the guiding light for Jews to think and work on how to be a better person and to help others. There are those, like some of the bloggers here, like Duke, who will hate anyone who appears to have a better grip on the meaning of life and are getting on with it. They are only looking for someone to blame for their own misery. This is also true of the self hating Jews. Jews need to use the tools that have proven to be successful over the centuries and not abandon them for the melting pot, which offers nothing. If you are in that pot, then you know what I mean. This of course has nothing to do with being superior or elitist but many will proclaim that it is. And with this you start to understand some of the reasons for antisemitism. This type of hate does more damage to those who do the hating.
@ giladg
RE: “the bloggers here, like Duke, who will hate anyone who appears to have a better grip on the meaning of life and are getting on with it. They are only looking for someone to blame for their own misery. This is also true of the self hating Jews. Jews need to use the tools that have proven to be successful over the centuries and not abandon them for the melting pot, which offers nothing.”
So, in accordance with what you say, Duke et al need to use the tools that have been proven to be successful over the centuries and not abandon them for the melting pot, which offers nothing. Isn’t that precisely what the young Hitler learned in Vienna?
It is.
I see Jews such as you and Gentiles such as Duke really do need each other.
Why it’s a downright Valentine card exchange.
giladg,
These seem to be the chief differences between white nationalists like David Duke and Kevin MacDonald and Jewish nationalists like yourself and Marc Zell:
1. Duke and MacDonald organize their politics around white/Eurpean ethnic culture and the best interests of the United States and Europe.
2. You and Marc Zell organize your politics around Jewish ethnic culture and the best interests of Israel.
Why should your brand of ethnic nationalism enjoy any more legitimacy or support in the United States and Europe than that of white nationalists (or black nationalists, Latino nationalists, Arab nationalists, etc.)?
And what does ethnic and religious nationalism have to do with the best values of America? That is not what America is all about.
giladg,
Which issues of concern to all Americans do you care about more than Jewish nationalism?
From the standpoint of the American interest, white nationalism would make more sense than Jewish nationalism — what do you think all the nostalgia for the lost values of the WASP elite is all about? From the standpoint of the American interest, Jewish nationalism — which is obsessively and fanatically organized around the Israeli interest — makes no sense at all. Most neoconservatives couldn’t care less about the American interest.
White nationalists have done the math on this issue — the more they support Zionism, the more they open the door for the reemergence of white nationalism in mainstream politics. This is why Anders Brevik (the Oslo mass murderer) and the EDL (English Defence League) are such enthusiastic supporters of Israel and Zionism.
Giladg :Spoken like a true fundamentalist, no different from all of those who foment division, hatred and war against the ‘unbelievers’. A purist, with the values of all the despots, charlatans and terrorists of whatever ideology, unable to handle the variety and fluidity of history and identity, who seeks to impose his own limited, niggardly, sour views of humanity on everybody else, and condemn those who don’t subscribe to such narrow-minded doctrines.
Proud to be in the ‘pot’ with the rest of humanity.
@ gilad
Why don’t submit a program for us here on mondo to Ask Herzl? Let’s see if their Q&A’s are anything better than the hasbara we’ve seen used before.
Ask Herzl – Your Hub for Israel Programs and Strategies
israelcc.org/home/initiatives/ask-herzl/
Ask Herzl is a website that will serve as a database for Israel programs and strategies on campus. Students and professionals will be able to submit and search …
Grants and awards – Ask Herzl will offer …
Submit A Program
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Ask Herzl will serve as a resource for Israel advocates who want “ready to run” programs …
Ask Herzl
http://www.askherzl.com
The message that Judaim teaches is to work for the betterment of all mankind. I did not say that Jews only work to assist other Jews, so please do not distort my words. And if you look around, you do see Jews very active doing just this. What I am saying is that Jews must not abandon their own religion in the process. Some Jews will do just about anything to “fit in” and become Jews in name only. This does not help the next generation.
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Does all mankind include Palestinians, and if so, in what way are you working for their ‘betterment’?
The facts are there but you do not want to acknowledge them.
The Palestinians in Israel, or Arab Israeli’s, are doing far better, on average, and have a higher standard of living, education and healthcare than most of the Arabs in the other Arab countries. The Palestinians on the West Bank occupy 96% of the land on the West Bank. They pay taxes to the Palestinian Authority and on average, the Palestinians on the West Bank also enjoy a standard of living comparable to other Arab countries.
So yes, the answer to your question is that it does include Palestinians, but if it was up to me I would only include those who do not want to slit our throats and drive the Jews into the sea. There are Jews who naively will still help the Palestinians, even though they make their intentions clear about destroying Israel. “They cannot really mean that” reflects their naive understanding of the world.
The bottom line is that the standard of living achieved by Palestinians has been achieved with the help of Jews. Israel has no reason to differentiate between Palestinian of type A and Palestinian of type B. So there must be something else going on. Maybe those of type B are working to harm Jews and are not interested in peace?
LOL, what a piece of hokum. Their standard of living has been destroyed by Israel. Just ask the Gazans. Ask the people in the West Bank whose crops are destroyed by fascist settlers, whose water is taken from them, whose movement is restricted, whose homes are demolished, whose economy is crushed by Israel. Palestinians had a decent standard of living until the Jews decided to take it from them. It is Israel who is terrorising and trying to drive the Palestinians out of their land, not the opposite as you satirically and disingenuously claim. Keep your blinkers on, so you can write such nonsense.
False. Israel occupies 100% of the West Bank. Only Israsel is an occupier.
False. Poverty in the WB is highers than even Gaza.
but if it was up to me I would only include those who do not want to slit our throats and drive the Jews into the sea.
You mean, those who sit quietly while you slit theirs right?
Who might that be? The Palestinians are insisting that Israel observe UNSC242 and international law.
No, the standard of living the Palestinians is is what Israel allows them to have.
No, that would be Israel.
link to thenational.ae
Obama to aides: Netanyahu will never do what it takes to achieve Mideast peace – Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper
link to haaretz.com
Israel does not want a Palestinian state. Period.
link to haaretz.com
Olmert: Right-wing Americans killed Mideast peace plan
link to warincontext.org
Former Shin Bet chief: Netanyahu not interested in peace talks
link to haaretz.com
The Never Ending Peace Negotiation…Peace is not on Israeli Agenda
link to intifada-palestine.com
Palestinians offer to renew Israel peace talks without settlement freeze, official says
link to haaretz.com
Well, so far giladg doesn’t appear to want to address the issue of why Jewish nationalism should enjoy greater legitimacy and support among Americans and Europeans than white nationalism, black nationalism, Latino nationalism, Arab nationalism or any other form of ethnic nationalism.
I think this is a point that is worth hitting hard with pro-Israel activists and militants like giladg and hophmi over and over again — it exposes the fundamental weirdness of the Zionist mindset, which is completely out of sync with modern Western democratic values and the concerns and interests of the vast majority of the human race.
So far the only responses that I have seen to this question have consisted of irrational mumbo jumbo which basically boils down to the unsupportable, narcissistic and megalomaniacal claim that God has singled out Zionists for a special mission among the nations — the claim that has been made by all messianic movements throughout world history.
Hey, if that’s the way you want to play the game — magical thinking, infantilism, etc. — let’s all roll around in the sandbox. My group is really, really special. :) Europeans certainly have some experience in wielding these cultural and political tools and techniques.
By the way, I am betting that Paul Ryan will flip on Israel and Zionism in the same that he flipped on Ayn Rand. And most Christian Zionists are highly unreliable supporters of Israel — clearly flippable. Once they realize that they’ve been hoodwinked, manipulated and exploited by a bogus doctrine, they are not going to be happy campers.
giladg, you say:
“The message that Judaim teaches is to work for the betterment of all mankind.” – Marc Zell says so also
“The Palestinians in Israel … a higher standard of living than most of the Arabs in the other Arab countries.” – Marc Zell says so also
—————————————————————————————-
Marc Zell says in the video: “I made a decision, I voted with my feet, I moved from the United States to Israel.”
Do you think giladg that Marc Zell did move to Israel for “the betterment of mankind” and to improve the “standard of living” of the Palestinians?
- No, he moved there because his Jewish identity was threatened in the US!
- His Jewish identity got to be something pathological.
giladg, it’s spelled J-U-D-A-I-S-M. That’s the second time in two days you’ve fluffed it. Not to mention your misspelling.
@giladg – “The Torah has been the guiding light for Jews to think and work on how to be a better person and to help others.” Except Palestinian Arabs, right giladg? What does the Torah have to say about the attitude of net contempt in which the secular Zionist leaders held Arabs, as evidenced by their words actions for the last 110 years or so? On the other hand, did Yeshayahu Liebowitz live by Torah, giladg? What do you think he learned from it? Teach, here, giladg, from the Torah about Amalek, Ishmael, Esau, and so on, then and today. Are they still alive today? What does it tell us to do about them?
giladg says:
August 12, 2012 at 12:31 am
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness
>>>>>>>>>
I want ask one of you zios a serious question.
Exactly where do you think Israel will end up?
If Greater Israel is achieved…if it manages to confiscate all of Palestine land what do you think you’re going to do with millions of Palestines?
Do you believe you can ‘contain’ them or keep them as a permanent underclass, apartheid like in some ghetto while Jews move into to take over their prior spaces?
Do you think they would become loyal servants to the country and people that took their homes and property and not rebel?
Or is the final result you envision a attritition type transfer of slowly moving forcing out of the country to wherever they can go?
What does the final Israeli dream look like?
My impression is that quite a few religious Zionists envision expelling most non-Jews (certainly all Palestinians) from Eretz Yisrael in an apocalyptic convulsion, the violent climax of a Clash of Civilizations between “the West” and Islam. Clearly they are also thinking about engineering a Hiroshima/Nagasaki-type scenario to crush and subjugate the entire Muslim world. This is the game plan that is not discussed in public but which is easy to read between the lines.
“…and drive the Jews into the sea..”
I hear this phrase an awful lot, but I’ve never found a source for this.
Did anyone actually ever threaten to do this?
“…and drive the Jews into the sea..”
I hear this phrase an awful lot, but I’ve never found a source for this.
Did anyone actually ever threaten to do this?
The Torah contains an example. It was one of the founding myths of Israel. Moses and the children of Israel were pursued into the Red Sea, which was the sole avenue of escape by Pharaoh and his servants. They were only spared by an act of Divine intervention in which the Egyptians were drowned. See Exodus 14..
In the Mandate era, some Palestinian and neighboring Arab leaders bragged about a final victory in which they would drive or throw the Jews into the sea. So naturally, the Zionist propagandists portrayed the results of the 1948 war as yet another national miracle or deliverance, e.g. link to paulbogdanor.com
Just say what you really mean: too many muslims!.
It saddens me that so many Jews are so illerate of their own culture and history that they completely disregard Jewish ethics in favour of a violent, blinkered and fearful view of the world – a view which is far less supported by deep and philosophical arguments rooted in thousands of years of Jewish culture – than it is by short, brutish sloganeering spouted by pedestrian minds illiterate of Jewish ethics, culture and history.
A sad phenomenom which you yourself just personally confirmed.
As Islam has the most members and is the fastest growing religion in the world, and most of the emigrants to Europe are Muslims, your comment Krauss, is silly. Are you a “tikun olam” type of guy Krauss? If you are so literate in the Jewish religion, why don’t you share with us your knowledge and tell us where tikun olam features in the Torah? Charity does, tikun olam does not.
And you talk about ethics? I assume you are taking a bash at Israeli’s actions over the past 70 years. It is very ethical to defend yourself and your family. As the Palestinians have shown little sign of real compromise for peace and the terror and war options seems always to be on the table, on the whole, Israeli actions has been very ethical.
@ Giladg”…on the whole, Israeli actions has been very ethical.”
Yeah, right … for hysterical religious Jews and Christians this is the way to go. The rest of mankind calls these actions crimes agains humanity. There is nothing ethical about Israel’s ‘actions’ over the past 65 years – it’s a failed state built on crimes, populated by a bunch of cowards.
Good point Krauss.
No one seems to have a probelm with Italians misinvg with French and Germans.
What saddens you is that you are ashamed of Israel and are compelled to defend it.
“Your own choice to marry a non-Jew creates a problem for your own kids if they ever want to choose Judusim as their road in life.”
Well for one thing, I’m sure any one of Phil’s elevn kids can spell “Judaism” correctly, for one thing. And for another, your contention is absurdly stupid. Believe me you, “giladg” if one of Phil’s kids wants to drive a tank for the IDF, I’m sure Phil won’t stand in his way.
And BTW, “giladg” who is going to “create problems” for them if they want to become observant Jews, with one Jewish and one Gentile parent? Gee, the answer wouldn’t be “other Jews” would it (I mean, it’s an “out-Jewing” situation they can’t lose, can they: “Your Momma was a Goy”)? Or will G-hyphen-d create problems for them? I’m sure you’ll tell us “giladg”, since you speak directly to Him and give Him his orders.
If Philips son, the tank driver, wants to marry an orthodox girl and she wants to remain orthodox, he will be in for a rough time.
@ Mooser
How do you know what Phil would stand in the way of if he had a kid? Do you have any kids? You never said.
Citizen, as always you are right. My father (alav ha-sholom!) told me many times that raising me made him want to jump in front of a tank. And he oughta know, he was in WW2.
Sometimes you make *me* want to jump in front of a tank…
…and I wasn’t in WW2. ;/
“Sometimes you make *me* want to jump in front of a tank…”
Shegetz, if that’s what you want to do, I won’t stand in your way.
The ‘multicultural experiment’, as you call it, in Europe, has emphatically not failed at all. You only wish it so, and obviously have no experience of it, other than your incessant hasbara. Religious identity is not an important or necessary component of modern identities, which are multiple, nor does it confer rights or privileges on people who happen to inherit or adopt it. As for the rest, about Phil’s personal life it is insulting, patronising twaddle and no business of yours who know nothing about it. Jewish exceptionalism is exactly what has led to apartheid, occupation and the sheer brutal ugliness of Israel and its policies. Zionism is a myth and an ideology, a 19th century relic which has somehow survived and morphed into a supremacist, separatist cult bankrolled and promoted by useful idiots like Zell.
“The ‘multicultural experiment’..justicewillprevail
Well it, or whatever we want to call the melting pot, was working in the US…half assed at some times …but at least still the official ideal.
Now we have the fringes trying to change that….that’s one area though where I don’t think the nuts will succeed…we are too melted or joined, like it or not…no going back now.
@ justicewillprevail
I’m watching the Olympic gold medal game now between USA and FRA.
The majority of both teams are of African descent.
Yes, good example.
This is exactly how racists think.
“This is exactly how racists think.”
If you want to use an extremely broad and flexible definition of “think”. I don’t see anything I associate with thinking in it.
@ Mooser
I agree with your comment. I am wondering why a number of commenters here actually think Zell is thoughtful–if he is, Phil has not given us that part of him; I also wonder if Phil didn’t press Zell harder on the latter’s meaning; if he did, it does not show in Phil’s article.
“I am wondering why a number of commenters here actually think Zell is thoughtful–if he is”
Because Zell exhibits the gestures, mannerisms and speech patterns used as dramatic shorthand for “thoughtful” in media. He’s acting or appearing like a thoughtful man, therefore he must be one. Goddamit Dan, if this kind of shorthand wasn’t available, action-adventure, dramatic, even comedies, would be all exposition, and we’d never get to the determinative fist-fight (Kirk just cannot keep a grip on a phaser) between the hero and the bad guy. C’mon Dan, get with it. It’s not like it requires actually listening to what he says or anything.
It saddens many that you, and many like you, feel a need to apologize for being Jewish.”..giladg
Probably not as much as it saddens them to have to keep apologizing for the Jews that fell into Israeli zionism.
@ giladg
RE: “Your own choice to marry a non-Jew creates a problem for your own kids if they ever want to choose Judusim as their road in life.”
I married a Jew, and I fail to see how that created a problem for my own kid if he ever wants to choose Christianity, or “Judusim” as his road in life. He seems to be doing fine. He doesn’t harm anyone, he’s very well-educated, is a positive force in his diverse community, and he has a good sense of fairness. He’s enjoying his life. Please explain how my allowing my son to choose any religion or none creates a problem? Or are you talking about propaganda when the mind is very young, a favorite of the Jesuits of old, for one?
What evidence is here of that?
What have they realized and that is served by maintaining religious identity.
Would marrying black people create a problem for one’s children to choose white society as their road in life.
By relying on the usual BS about he majority of Palestinians being recent arrivals (false) and the wars and Israel being attacked (also false).
“Philip, the multi-cultural experiment in Euorpe has failed. “
I don’t get it? Why is “giladg” condemning Judaism? Hell, our “multi-cultural experiment” still survives, and if the Zionists don’t kill it, will go on experimenting with itself.
“Euorpe has failed”
Yeah, but I’ve heard they can spell. And some of them are so smart they can find the spel-chek button!
Well, that was a disconcerting experience — I found myself liking and respecting Marc Zell as a person, while strongly disagreeing with his views. I admire the way he handled some tough questions from Phil (and I thought Phil handled the interview with impressive finesse). What a pity that most Jewish neoconservatives in the United States can’t make as positive an impression as Zell. And of course Christian Zionists aren’t nearly in the same league as Zell intellectually — they don’t really get Jewishness (particularly the “thoughtfulness” component of Jewishness).
But: I still think that Zell is backing a losing cause and is on the wrong track from a strategic/world historical perspective. What I find interesting, however, is that I get the impression that he might be willing to think about arguments which challenge his fundamental beliefs in a serious way.
With regard to Israeli PR/hasbara/branding methods: Zell could provide some good tips — don’t shout; don’t be overbearing; be thoughtful; make your best effort to listen to opposing views. That approach helps generate some sympathy for your position — or at least doesn’t completely alienate those who disagree with you.
Funny, how everybody can imagine living in a “Fiddler on the Roof” stage set, but nobody can look at what actually happens to people in separatist communities.
So I guess al of you are looking forward to growing up gay, or lesbian, or born out of wedlock, or atheist or even just plain agnostic in such a community. Or with a thirst for secular knowledge. But that won’t happen to any of you, because you’re all such good Jews.
My God, where does this out-Jewing compulsion come from? Maybe it’s from using computers on the Sabbath?
@ Mooser
I dunno, shunning is pretty effective–ask a Hutterite who left the community a few tads. Or ask Dick Goldstone.
“I dunno, shunning is pretty effective”
So you think “shunning is pretty effective” at making GLTB people convert to an acceptable hetero model? Or does it only work if they can’t leave the “community” (which we still haven’t defined beyond the ordinary Saturday morning gatherings, instead of Sunday)?
Try to make a distinction between an intelligent man, Zell, and his ideology, violent religious-ethnic nationalism.
Albert Speer, Hitler’s architect, was not a fanatic. He was also a deeply intelligent and thoughtful man. A fact demonstrated by how lightly he has been treated by biographies and historical books. I remember reading a book by a woman who became one of the leading journalists in Scandinavia during the 80s and 90s and how she had grown up admiring Speer, despite the fact that she was a communist because his personal traits were so overwhelming.
He was this handsome, intelligent, charming man who kept a cool distance to the fanatics and seemed to have a neutral view on Jews.
People often make the mistake of taking someone’s personal charm/intelligence and papering over the ideology they fully support. She did that, you do it now.
You’re being charmed by Zell the person. You’re being blinded by it, and you try to rationalize it intellectually because a part of you realizes that fact, and it was the same in her book.
(P.S. Of course Nazism isn’t the same as Zionism, not even close.
But the point I’m making is valid as a general rule nonetheless).
“Try to make a distinction between an intelligent man, Zell, and his ideology, violent religious-ethnic nationalism.”
Okay, I’m ready for that gig now! My pipes are open, I’ve got a big smile on my face, and if anything goes wrong, all I gotta do is think about Krauss’ amazing logic, and I’m ROTFL again!
Krauss,
You wrote:
“People often make the mistake of taking someone’s personal charm/intelligence and papering over the ideology they fully support. She did that, you do it now.
You’re being charmed by Zell the person. You’re being blinded by it, and you try to rationalize it intellectually because a part of you realizes that fact, and it was the same in her book.”
Is this addressed to me?
This is what I wrote:
“But still: Zell is caught up in and controlled by a political movement spearheaded by ethno-religious nationalist zealots who hold nuance in contempt. Benjamin Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman are very different personalities than Zell.”
I think his ideology and ideological associates are going to bring him to ruin — no amount of nuance and charm can cover up the lunatic extremism of the entire Likud Zionist program.
I don’t mind you disagreeing with him per se, but I’ve read a lot of what you’ve written and you’re not exactly the same kind of the-sky-is-falling-so-let’s-all-go-fascist type that he is. So I figured you started to swoon because you get impressed by intellectual people(and Jews have a lot of those /ethnocentrism).
So it appears my original hunch was right as you’re now backtracking as your short-term infatuation(if you don’t mind getting a little ribbed) is giving way to your underlying political predispositions, which – rightly – reject this man’s racism and darkly dimmed view of the world.
Yea, using intelligent really bothers me when applied to some people, it tends to paper over the ‘immorality’ of both their mental and emotional intelligence and accord them some respect they aren’t due imo.
There ought to be some better word or label for people who may smart or educated in some subjects but failures in full ‘human’ intelligence.
it tends to paper over the ‘immorality’ of both their mental and emotional intelligence and accord them some respect they aren’t due imo.
bingo. reminds me of people who brag about their IQ when they have no common sense. common sense is the kind that incorporates morality into any equation. i don’t care how smart a person is if they have no morals.
“There ought to be some better word or label for people who may smart or educated in some subjects but failures in full ‘human’ intelligence.”
Me, I like “that dumbshit” or maybe “that imbecile, bigoted bastard”
or maybe “that jerk” but I believe the acceptable term is sociopath.
And jeez, if you gotta be a Jewish sociopath, go act out on the Gentiles, and leave Jews alone. Could you at least give us that much consideration, if, of course, you’ve got the courage. Which obviously, he don’t
@ Krauss,
RE: “(P.S. Of course Nazism isn’t the same as Zionism, not even close.
But the point I’m making is valid as a general rule nonetheless).”
The ideology, or the implementation? Seems to me the ideology is very close. The test of virtue is power. Israel became a state after the Nuremberg Trials and its Geneva & fellow international progeny. Yet, even in spite of that, and in the face of the internet, look at Israel now–isn’t it trying its best to more fully implement its ideology?
Sean,
I thought Zell came across as vain, complacent and manipulative as well as being an unrepentant Jewish supremacist who thought the natural order was for Jews to rule Arabs. Did you notice he didn’t rule out future Israeli expansion into the (rest of) Transjordan? It just “wasn’t in play right now”.
What did you find to like or respect about him as a person?
libra,
You wrote,
“What did you find to like or respect about him?”
The level of discourse among most pro-Israel activists and militants is so extraordinarily low that it is refreshing to run into someone like Marc Zell who is at least not a shrieker and a screecher.
Believe me, I understand where he is coming from. His use of the terms “the Land of Israel” and “dhimmitude” place him on the same ideological grid with the worst extremists in the Likud Zionist world — Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, David Horowitz, Eric Cantor, Caroline Glick, Elliott Abrams, etc. He is probably also fond of the terms “Eretz Yisrael,” “Judea and Samaria,” “Amalek,” etc. When you run into pro-Israel activists who use any of these terms you can safely bet that they’ve been sucked into the entire delusional Old Testament belief system. They are no longer members in good standing among sane and rational people.
Nonetheless, I am glad that Philip sat down and tried to pursue a reasonable discussion with Zell. Illuminating.
Sean,
I’m certainly glad Phil interviewed Zell. Indeed, he is probably as intelligent and articulate an Israeli zionist as we will ever hear on Mondoweiss and what we heard from him was indeed illuminating. It’s clear that within the circles he mixes – which are probably quite high within the Israeli establishment – there is no intention for Israel to ever fully integrate into the Middle East as an equal. Instead, they envisage expanding Greater Israel through an ongoing series of regional disruptions and land grabs, presumably interspersed with periods of cold peace and consolidation. No wonder they can’t tolerate the idea of others having nuclear weapons.
But frankly, the fact that he dripped his poison in such a softly spoken manner was what put me off the most about Zell as a person. But because of he spoke in a reasonable tone, I’m not sure Phil picked up immediately the implications of some of things he was hearing.
“But frankly, the fact that he dripped his poison in such a softly spoken manner was what put me off the most about Zell as a person.”..libra
Yep. A lot of really repulsive ideas are often delivered by ‘reasonable’ sounding, well spoken people and usually under the guise of some kind of ‘good’.
I’ve read that Hitler was a talented speaker and skillful at rationalizing his agenda for the public. The first time I read the zionist rational below for the ‘transfer’ of the Palestines it reminded me of how the nazis rationalized and presented their original plans to ‘emigrate’ Jews out of Germany.
link to jerusalemsummit.org
Humanitarian Regional Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: A Synopsis
(excerpt)
Analysis
1. Analysis of their deeds and declarations over the years make it difficult to avoid the conclusion that the Palestinians are in effect both unwilling and incapable of achieving and maintaining statehood.
(a) Palestinian Unwillingness: This is reflected in the fact that the Palestinians have rejected every single viable proposal which would have afforded them a state – from the 1947 partition plan to the 2000 Barak proposals.
(b) Palestinian Incapability: The Palestinian national movement has enjoyed conditions far more favorable than almost any other national independence movement since WW-II – widespread international endorsement of their cause, unmitigated support of a superpower in the decades of the Cold War, highly sympathetic coverage by the major media organizations, and over a decade of Israeli administrations who have acknowledged (and at times even identified with) the Palestinians declared national aspirations. In spite of this, the achievements of Palestinian national movement have been more miserable than almost any other national independence movement – bringing nothing but privation and penury to its people.
2. It is thus far easier to understand Palestinian conduct if one assumes that it is driven less by lack of Palestinian self-determination and more by the very existence of Jewish self-determination; less by the aspiration to establish a Palestinian state and more by the aspiration to dismantle a Jewish state.
3. The latter, and seemingly more plausible, explanation of Palestinian behavior – i.e. rejection of Jewish self determination and the dismantling of the Jewish nation state – reflects an agenda totally unacceptable by any international standards and thus must be branded as devoid of any legitimacy.
4. Accordingly if the accepted version of the Palestinian narrative – i.e. a desire for Palestinian self determination and the aspiration for Palestinian statehood – cannot be reconciled with the history of Palestinian behavior, this narrative also must be branded as devoid of any legitimacy.
5. This issue of legitimacy of narrative is crucial. Indeed the very fuel of the Political Paradigm, involving the establishment of a Palestinian state, is the perception – or rather the misperception – of the presently prevailing Palestinian narrative as legitimate.
C. Conclusion
1. The establishment of a Palestinian State must removed from the international agenda.
2. However, removing the issue of a Palestinian state from the international agenda will not eliminate the humanitarian predicament of Palestinians residing in Israeli-administered areas.
3. This is clearly an issue that must be addressed and resolved. But it must be addressed not in political terms but in humanitarian ones.
4. Thus, to successfully resolve the Palestinian problem, the Political Paradigm must be replaced by a Humanitarian Paradigm. This, however can only be done if the current Palestinian narrative, which fuels the Political Paradigm, is de-legitimized.
5. Thus, the de-legitimization of the Palestinian narrative becomes a vital prerequisite to any comprehensive resolution of the Palestinian issue.’
Jerusalem Summit-2004Rabbi Israel Meir Lau (Israel) · Professor Xu Xin (China) · Isi Leibler (Israel) · Prof.
Rivka Yadlin (Israel) · Avigdor Liberman (Israel) · Marc Zell (Israel)
To me this is worse, eviler than the passionate ranting zios…..more cold blooded.
” I admire the way he handled some tough questions…What a pity that most Jewish neoconservatives in the United States can’t make as positive an impression as Zell.”
You admire how he’s used his intelligence and education to cultivate a dishonest glibness about the nature of the conflict and its possible future? You admire the fact that he seems to believe that the the Arabs understand only force and may even feel that the only good Arab is one that’s “crawling to [him] on all fours”? That he uses his education and social standing (you can call it intellectual standing if you really have to) to pronounce like this make him worse than the Yesha leaders, some of whom have once in a while at least admitted some genuine esteem for the Arabs around them. This seems like Western supremacist combined with Jewish victimhood.
Apologies, this comment thread is already old, I’m not really adding anything..
What is the difference between this and fascism?
If Ze’ev Jabotinsky was alive, he’d answer that question quite well. Since he isn’t, he can only go by his diaries. And his answer – after openly admiring the fascist movements of Europe as they sprung up during the 30s – not much.
@ Krauss,
I agree, but this? From you, who gave us (earlier in this thread):
“Try to make a distinction between an intelligent man, Zell, and his ideology, violent religious-ethnic nationalism.”
I will say no more, except to note that serial killers are very often very intelligent.
“I will say no more, except to note that serial killers are very often very intelligent.”
That’s exactly what has held me back from a sucessful career in that profession. I stabbed 47 boxes of Special K without stopping, but my IQ score kept me from being accepted into the apprenticeship. And of course, plumbing was out, too.
Facism? How dare you, Edward Q! How dare you! Are you trying to suggest that a “Jewish community” or any other confessional community which deal with society as a group via its “leaders” will be internally oppressive? What on earth gave you that idea? Why, the next thing you’ll be suggesting is that, if allowed to live separately, we’ll be up to weird stuff like infant genital mutilation or something. There’s an ugly name for that kind stuff Edward Q. It’s called circumcision.
@ Mooser
Aw come on, even the American Gentiles love circumcision and they have no religious mandate for it–it’s cute! Didn’t you ever watch Seinfeld?
“Didn’t you ever watch Seinfeld?”
No. Sorry, but no.
“What is the difference between this and fascism?”
Most other varieties of fascism were universally condemned and destroyed in 1945.
Israel is still around and even celebrated in certain quarters.
Me, I like Jews, and want each one of them to live as he or she pleases. I also trust them (well, as long as they are not Zionists, of course) to know how much Jewishness they need, how much Jewish/non-Jewish association they need, how much Jewish learning they want, how much Jewish observance they need, and who they need to love.
And since they are (like the rest of you sons-of-bitches) my brothers and sisters, I want them to be in charge of their own lives.
Seems like a lot of people here don’t think Jews can be trusted to do the right thing, if left to themselves. I thought we were supposed to be smart?
And as far as the implicit fantasy that you will be in charge of, and not oppressed by, a seperate “Jewish community” it is to laugh. Do you think they would approve of your posting here?
@ Mooser
Yeah! It’s the non-Jews who cannot be trusted to do the right thing, if left to themselves. Everybody knows they are not the brightest bulbs in the box.
zell has completely absorbed a narrative that doesn’t play out on the ground. the whole marc twain thing, as if palestine was uncivilized when the zionists arrived. it wasn’t. clutching mark twain etc. sad.
Zell is right to live in fear. Don’t underestimate his vast intellect, you should take heed from Sean.
For him it’s not hasbara. It’s visceral.
The goyim! The muslims! The leftists! The self-hating 5th column Jews!
Hell, even the resurgence of the Nazis!
It’s all coming together in his foresightful mind. Maybe he has a lot more in common with ‘The End Is Nigh’ doomsday evangelical Christians than he may at first think – and he is right to be proud of that.
Darkness is now everywhere. Sauron, part Jewish, part leftist, part muslim, part neo-Nazi, part liberal(oh yes) is now forming…
The shadows are closing in fast now.
And whereas Sauron in the LOTR saga was this bestial monster; in Zell’s perceptful mind he rightfully understands that this is now the stone-throwing little kid getting shot by the IDF on an open field.
Anyone who does not see this is a traitor or worse to the Jewish cause. Now we must close down on the borders… the world is after us.. I swear, the gaschambers are being prepared as we speak… by the muslim Obama!!!1one
Zell is right to live in fear.
what? i can’t even keep track of this conversation. are you being facetious?
If you ask me, (oh that’s all right, Annie, I’ll save you the trouble) Zell didn’t even know who was sitting in front of him, you wind him up, and he starts selling the same load of clams he always does. His criteria for truth is how effectively what he says motivates the people he’s talking to.
No, I’m all on Zell’s side.
you wind him up, and he starts selling the same load of clams he always does.
that’s what i meant by ‘clutching mark twain’. he’s got his narrative down and he doesn’t deviate from it. everything makes total sense from that perspective. the problem is it is not based on reality and people see the emperor has no clothes and the way the neonuts, the settler types etc, are dealing with it is just to completely disregard truth. cat’s out of the bag zell.
@ Krauss
And you think you are balanced? Didn’t you play on teeter-totters as a kid? You should ons some time. Or, to use another simile, so you like your thumb on the scale? Make sure the guys at the bar are drunk.
Citizen, don’t be a spoil-sport. This comment section has, with the arrival of Colin, Klaus, and Krauss, reached a state of absolutely irresistible surreality, and absurdity. It’s not good for me, but I’m enjoying the heck out of it.
“…Citizen, don’t be a spoil-sport. This comment section has, with the arrival of Colin, Klaus, and Krauss, reached a state of absolutely irresistible surreality, and absurdity…”
And here I was thinking the moderators must have slapped you down and we’d have a week or two without your admittedly unique brand of verbal abuse.
“And here I was thinking the moderators must have slapped you down and we’d have a week or two without your admittedly unique brand of verbal abuse.”
Have you talked to them, Colin? I’m sure if you sent them a personal message, detailing what I’ve done to you, they will ban me, and probably institute proceedings against me on your behalfgratis. And when you add up the damages and punitive damages, I’m gonna be in a world of hurt.
Don’t forget to tell them that thanks to me, you’ve decided to become a right-wing Zionist! The moderators really admire an independent thinker!
And here I was thinking “thank goodness I’m not posting as Knauss”. Now it seems none of use are safe.
Zell’s basic position is this: The life of Palestinians (“Arabs”) generally (oops, forgot about Gaza) has steadily improved since Israel was established. And since the “Jewish way” is not to drive non-Jews out, they are morally superior to Arabs, who have allegedly driven out Jews and others. We’re proud of our efforts to improve the life of non-Jews here. They (the Palestinians) would drive us into the sea if they could, but we’re not going to let that happen. Moreover, efforts to criticize and “delegitimize” Israel are totally unfair and unwarranted.
Zell ignores the fact that Israel has ignored UN resolutions and international law (with the purchased complicity of the US government) for years and continues to do so under the guise of “security needs” and “rights to the land.” Here, I wish Phil had queried Zell a bit further.
I personally was not that impressed with Zell, and I think that those who were simply expected him to be shouting “death to the Arabs” with a wild-eyed expression on his face.
To argue that the ethnic cleansing and occupation of Palestinians shows support of Jewish values is just as anti-Semitic as blaming the religion of Judaism for ethnic cleansing and occupation.
“To argue that the ethnic cleansing and occupation of Palestinians shows support of Jewish values is just as anti-Semitic as blaming the religion of Judaism for ethnic cleansing and occupation.”
What the heck was that dog’s name? Oh that’s right B-I-N-G-O!! Les, I’ve never seen it put better, and in one sentence. You have rung the bell, breasted the tape, hit the bulls-eye, and entitled to the cigar or coco-nut, winner’s choice. Well done.
@ Les
So, the creed is in the deed, and conversely, the deed is in the creed. And if you apply that in this context, why, you are anti-Semitic. Got it.
“So, the creed is in the deed, and conversely, the deed is in the creed. And if you apply that in this context, why, you are anti-Semitic. Got it.”
So you’re going to stick to your contention that the key to Zionist excesses (to use a handy term, it was right there waiting) can be found in the Jewish scriptures?
Gosh, makes me wonder why, with all those laws (civil, not Jewish) on the books, there are any crimes or criminals.
I gotta go, I gotta gig. You guys don’t need me, you can out-Jew each other all day without my help.
You’ll be missed Mooser. I think?
Missed or not, I gotta do my job. And I did! And things went well, very well!
Look for “Evolution of the Temple Garment” in better record and CD stores near you. If they don’t have it, you know what to do! Just don’t say I told you to do it.
Here’s a couple examples. I’m not on these, but maybe, just maybe, I’ll work on the next one.
“”We need to be separate,” he said. Rather than allow our identities to become “diluted” in America, we need to maintain a “separate stream.” The world is “hostile” to Jewish values”
Oh, here we go again with the nutcases.
BAM!…….that’s the sound of the door slamming on the Zell cult.
Go be separate…go away……good luck and good riddance.
And don’t come knocking on the US door no more.
@ American
Amen.
Douglas Feith? Isn’t he the guy who can’t get a job, except with other right wing nut balls? He barely escaped being indicted for felonious conduct…some partner…Feith, like Cheney can’t really travel anywhere outside the USA and Israel without being picked up for violation of International War Crimes Provisions….all this Jew crap reminds me of Hitler and Himmler….
All this “chosen people” and “jew supremacy” is just so much propaganda swill and hogwash rot…I have noticed that folks doing anything worth while these days ARE NOT ROUNDEYES….
Japanese build and make perfect stuff, Chinese manufacture and as always are the world’s merchants, Indians answer your phone calls and produce Engineers, MDs, and the world’s drugs…Mexicans do Art…
give me a call when any of the Jewish food equals ANY of the tasty victuals produced by the Chinese, Indians, Pakistanis, Mexicans, Brazilians, Caribbean Blacks….now that’s a true test of ANY civilization…Uhhhhhmmmm PIZZA….
Take a look at the Olympics and who exactly excels these days…I see plenty of Orientals…a ton of Blacks from all over the world…a few American and Russkie white dudes and girls, very few compared to the above….
and that’s the way the WORLD is going….Brazil in 16…
You either get on the multicultural bullet train or you get lost in the dust bin of history…and evolution…
@ chuckcarlos
Ah, I think you better look again–plenty of white round eyes getting medals in the Olympics. Anyway, the Jewish rags are also praising the female “American Jewish” gymnast who got a gold medal and a bronze (same score as her competitor, but got that medal on total points of some sort). I saw a few Israelis here and there in the rankings but so far they haven’t made it to the final competitions for the medals as far as I know.
Mo Farrah who won both 10 and 5K is from Mogadishu but has a UK residence and passport but trains in Eugene Oregon but he’s SHHHH, MUSLIM
Taoufik Makhloufi who won the 1500 meters is from Algeria and he’s, SHHHHH, MUSLIM
Kirani James who won the 400 meters is from Grenada and runs for UofAlabama…he seems to be black….
Mr Lightning Bolt, from Jamaica who might be Rastafarian seems to be black…
I even noticed the winner of the javelin is a black dude…
my hunch is the winner of the Marathon tomorrow ain’t gonna be Greek but rather from Africa…
the girls on the track and in the field….
Gabby Douglas sure did not look Jewish…
Both the French and American women’s basketball teams were dominated by black girls…
don’t know about rhythmic gymnastics but assume most if not all are either Chinese or Russians…as are most artistic gymnasts…
besides Missy Franklin and Mr Phelps the dominant swimmers were the Sun Chinese dude who trains in Australia and that Chinese chick who dominated the 400/200 Medley…all except Phelps swam world records…
the list of great Muslim athletes who are/were runners goes on and on and on….
Zell is a fool, an incoherent babbler, and an idiot as if Zell being an attorney in league with that criminal Feith didn’t already prove it
OMG!…..are we now gonna get into Asian superiority as well?
Yep, industrious and smart crew they are but can we quit the ethnic one up manship???????
Just say every ethnic, if you insist on seperating things that way, has some outstanding traits.
And let it go at that.
These who is the fairest ethnic of them all battles turn into poking everyone with a corncob regardless of their view.
This underlines the Zionist meme construction of a common distorted narrative that includes victimization and a constant threat to justify war crimes and the brutalization of the Palestinians among other atrocities. This is in addition to the use of the “law” and select U.N. Resolutions to righteously declare their innocence and declare that they have done nothing wrong. ( see the debate on RT television: Crosstalk, “What Occupation”)
Surely, our upstanding Jewish community will rise up after they understand that the principles of Zionism does not fit well in Torah precepts and in practice it has spawned a murderous ruling class whose policies will eventually be the undoing of Israel as they envision it.
Phil, what can you tell about the chairs in the King David Hotel? Are they comfortable? How does one sit down & get up (must be on your tape)? Did you sit in a same one as Marc did or was yours not tilted beyond a green line?
“Phil, what can you tell about the chairs in the King David Hotel?”
Oh they’re fine, but everybody seems so darn, well, nervous in them, it’s funny, but one sharp noise, and they set records for the sitting high jump. Wonder what that’s all about?
Mooser says:
“one sharp noise, and they set records for the sitting high jump”
Now there is a sport in which Israeli’s can excel.Looking for a boogeyman behind every stone and blade of grass is an extremely poor environment in which to raise children
“Now there is a sport in which Israeli’s can excel.”
Blowing up the King David Hotel? Yup, I think their record still stands.
Something, something in the view is wrong. Not even the vertical jump option explains it (close it is). Would spinal comfort help?
link to diamondmattress.com
I think people need to define what they consider intelligence when they use the description. I would use this one in the zionst and Zell’s case.
“Intelligence is the aggregate or global capacity of the individual to act purposefully, to think rationally and to deal effectively with his environment.’’
Wechsler, 1944
link to indiana.edu
‘Wechsler eventually concluded that Spearman’s theory of general intelligence (g) was too narrow. Unlike Spearman, Wechsler viewed intelligence as an effect rather than a cause, and asserted that non-intellective factors, such as personality, contribute to the development of each person’s intelligence. His personal definition, “Intelligence is the aggregate or global capacity of the individual to act purposefully, to think rationally and to deal effectively with his environment” reflects this broader view.’’
I also think you have to be “rational” to be considered intelligent. Who thinks Zell is rational? ..as in his conclusion of total separation for Jews, Jews living physically, mentally, emotionally, ‘completely’ separate from the other world or within a nation as a nationalist separate identity entity.
Is it rational to believe this is actually viable or would produce a continuance for Jews economically, educationally or a security guarantee.
I don’t think it’s rational at all. I don’t see how a group of 12 million could sustain themselves on a modern level, other than as some commune type of country or entity, or advance economically, educationally or any other way without interaction and some dependence/ cooperation/ accommodation with the outside world.
” His personal definition, “Intelligence is the aggregate or global capacity of the individual to act purposefully, to think rationally and to deal effectively with his environment” reflects this broader view.’’…”
This falls into the ‘sounds good but…’ class of quotations.
A friend once memorably described my mother as having ‘an ornamental brain.’
It was true. She was very intelligent — but utterly incapable of dealing with anything in her life effectively or constructively. Conversely, my dog seems to manage to at least act purposefully and deal effectively with his environment — although I will have to grant it’s improbable that he thinks rationally.
So I think this definition of intelligence fails completely. Plenty of people are really quite dull-witted — but manage to ‘act purposefully, to think rationally and to deal effectively with their environment.’ They aren’t more intelligent than some bitter library clerk on that account.
“Plenty of people are really quite dull-witted — but manage to ‘act purposefully, to think rationally and to deal effectively with their environment.’ ….Colin
That wasn’t the question. The question was— is Zell ‘rational’ —in his demand or vision of Jews being seperate from others as benefical to the continuence and future welfare of Jews. IOW would it work?
I don’t think it’s a rational proposition….I think it’s delusional.
And I think a person must be rational to be ‘completely’ intelligent.
So we just disagree on intelligence.
But I’ll go ask my german shepard what he thinks, he’s pretty smart….lol
“But I’ll go ask my german shepard what he thinks, he’s pretty smart….lol”
I asked my Labrador her opinion recently. To the question “Dora, how will it go for Israel?” she replied “Rough!”
Can’t fool Dora.
And my doggie is a historian too! Yup, today I asked her what the Elizabethans used to wear around their necks! And she got it right again!
She’s so smart. Why, I bet she could tell me what part of the mouth peanut butter sticks to!
@ American
“A people who shall dwell alone”–morphed to “Be a Jew at home, a Gentile on the Street” to…..Israel, a nuclear hegemonic regional state that depends on a 98% Gentile country to avoid accountability and be able to afford what it does that needs accountability in the wake of the Nuremberg Trials and its international progeny. Between the real and the ideal falls the shadow; between the state of Israel and the ideal Jewish ghetto falls the shadow. Who knows what lurks in the heart of man–The Shadow knows.
@ Citizen
I think we have a good idea what lurks in the hearts of those like Zell.
Disdain for everything and everyone in the universe except themselves.
I can’t help it…every time I hear one of these flakes I want someone to ask them the ultimate defining question…where do you think you’re gonna end up with this craziness….when you arrive at whatever final destination you’re after what do you think it will look like?
I’d like to see how they describe their ‘ideal” arrangement/outcome of/for the Jews.
I’m willing to bet their ultimate ideal is so crazy even we would have a hard time believing it.
Americans: “I’d like to see how they describe their ‘ideal” arrangement/outcome of/for the Jews.”
That’s really easy to answer – to rule all Gentiles like he wants to rule the Arabs. They won’t like it but they’ll have to put up with it. And I bet he’s confident that in time in can be done – North America, Europe, Russia…
For God’s freakin’ sake, Libra, listen to the man. He doesn’t care whether he rules Gentiles or Arabs. That’s way out of his league, an absurdity. I ask you to listen to me: Who he wants to rule, the only people he has a chance of ruling, is Jews. Or if events make it possible for him to profit from anti-Semitism, the Jews.
“Who he wants to rule, the only people he has a chance of ruling, is Jews. “…Mooser
I don’t know. The Zells and similar uber types are pretty much ruling US national policy re Jews and Israel …..enough to have made it necessary for US leaders to bascially pledge alligence to Israel in their campaigns.
I don’t think we can underestimate the size of delusions people fanatically dedicated to some cause or ideology might have.
Mooser: “He doesn’t care whether he rules Gentiles or Arabs. That’s way out of his league, an absurdity.”
Mooser, I agree the man doesn’t care much about Gentiles or Arabs so long as they are not in a position to upset the Zionist applecart in the Middle East. Hence the need to dominate regionally and to “rule” the foreign policy of the dominant powers such US, Europe, Russia (perhaps not coincidentally where Zell has law offices) in the manner American describes. In other words, the neocon agenda writ large. And as Feith’s old partner you can be sure he doesn’t think that’s absurd.
“Hence the need to dominate regionally and to “rule” the foreign policy of the dominant powers such US, Europe, Russia “…Libra
Yea, without the backup of the US in particular to keep other countries off them I think Zell’s Israel would pretty much dead in the water, so they gotta have some control over the non Jewish governmental powers. And it’s getting ticklish, I might be misremembering, but believe the US was the Only one of the big five at the UNSC that vetoed the Palestine application for statehood.
I noticed recently that Israel has initated some budget financial austerity measures and is feeling the shocks now of the global recession, their trade is way off with Europe, their largest trading partner besides the US, and the IT investment in Israel by Intel, Micro and other American owned companies is down by 40% already. 70% of all business investment in Israel companies comes from abroad so a big war would cut that off that right quick. Their press is fluffing these measures as economic preperation for a war with Iran. But we can be sure if Israel has economic trouble they will expect their economy to be bailed out with some more US billions like we have done several times before.
“not in a position to upset the Zionist applecart in the Middle East.”
Without Zionism’s and Zionist’s power over Jews there would be no Zionist applecart in the Middle east!
I am not, by any means, saying that Arabs and Gentiles are not victims of Zionism. But Zionism fist had to rule Jews, make them willing to arrange their lives around or even give their lives to, or for, Zionist ideology, before Zionism could hurt or rule a single Gentile and/or Arab.
But Zionism fist had to rule Jews…
Mooser, I’m in absolute agreement with you here. Zionism is at the top of this perverse pyramid. But how to break Zionism’s power over Jews? My intuition is that there must be a weak spot somewhere, however carefully papered over, to push against.
And it’s getting ticklish, I might be misremembering, but believe the US was the Only one of the big five at the UNSC that vetoed the Palestine application for statehood.
It never came to a vote. Russia and China recognized Palestine in 1988 and have had State of Palestine Embassies ever since. France threatened to vote in favor of recognition, and did so in the UNESCO vote. The US was looking pretty isolated, until the UK joined-in and said it would vote against membership and press for both sides to present border proposals within 90 days as part of a Quartet proposal to restart talks. The Palestinians submitted a map, but Israel let the deadline and an extension lapse.
Now the US is asking for a delay until after the elections in November, on a vote in the General Assembly about upgrading Palestine’s non-membership status.
@ libra & Mooser
Yes, the zionist had to rule Jews first or ‘fist.
But I actually think we may be past the point where that even matters, I think they’ve already jumped way over that. The Jews are just stage props now.
I was listening tonight to Nagorski, the author of ” Hitler Land”. His book is written thru the eyes of the Americans who were in Germany, reporters, jet setters, entertainers, etc. and what they saw and what their impressions were in the 1930′s. None of them saw it coming, none of them…no one caught on till later, not even the veteran reporters adept at translating what’s happening in countries. The ones that saw the massive military building up would think ” maybe” something’s up, but then they would fall back to ‘oh that’s a ridiculous thought.
A lot of them were either impressed with Hitler or else thought he was unimpressive and going no where big politically. But they all loved Germany, admired everything about it, it was cultured, industrious, educated, refined, sophisticated, heads and shoulders above what America society was then. They admired how the German general society had held onto all their high quality culture and education in spite of their economic depressions in a way the US who also going thru a depression hadn’t done.
‘One’ demigod leader and band of fanatics changed that entire country and society…was what Nagorski said was the lesson taken by the Americans who had visited and lived in Germany then.
And he said what the Americans in Germany said later, was what I said in my prior comment …never, ever dismiss nonsense talking people as not really serious crazies. If someone talks grandiose plans and wild ideas and has any support at all, take their ‘talk’ seriously….because committed fanatics ‘will’ do the insane, they will even commit suicide and drag people with them in their throes of insanity and fanaticism.
I think the US zionist and the Israeli government now are that just that crazy. I truly believe the Zionist cult hierarchy is insane and could do to the US what Hitler did to Germany if they get the right US demigod in office…and maybe even if they don’t…maybe their zio and neo friends in congress is all they need to Panzer the ME and take the US with them.
People should really, really take these zionist and the threat they are seriously.
Look at where we already are ,on war for Israel, and demonizing Muslims, and the racist crap and violence multipling in the US and even spouted by members of congress, and zio casino kings financing a presidential candidate.
I’m telling you it’s getting crazier and crazier here.
It might never happen but then again it COULD….so I don’t even care if I sound all tin foily or alarmist.
“My intuition is that there must be a weak spot somewhere, however carefully papered over, to push against.”
And it looks to me like Phil Weiss and company are finding it. And there is another generation of Jews coming along who won’t even have Phil’s hang-ups and reservations and shibboleths to overcome (or mine, for that matter), and won’t wait.
@ Hostages
Thanks for correction….. my mind is fuzzed….what was the occasion when the US was the single veto?….I know there was one but can’t remember which.
Thanks for correction….. my mind is fuzzed….what was the occasion when the US was the single veto?….I know there was one but can’t remember which.
There have been several occasions where the US has cast the lone veto. Many of them have resulted in Emergency Special Sessions of the General Assembly. The last one didn’t go that far, but it occurred when Ambassador Rice vetoed the resolution on illegal settlements. link to un.org
American, I too watched that on Book TV (we’re so similar) and yeah I was/am thinking the exact same thing. Zionist Israel, quite honestly, is Nazi Germany on the eve of its invasion of Poland I’m afraid.
“My intuition is that there must be a weak spot somewhere, however carefully papered over, to push against.”
Maybe, but even if there isn’t a weak spot, if enough people can aquire an “unqualified loathing” of Israel, Zionism’s day is over.
No wonder Marc Zell sounds smart:
From Wikipedia:
“Graduated with an A.B. from Princeton University (1974) in Germanic Languages and Literatures with a concentration in theoretical linguistics and a J.D. with honors from the University of Maryland at Baltimore (1977).
Zell speaks eight languages: English, Hebrew, French, German, Italian, Russian, Dutch and Yiddish.”
Now, if he applied his formidable intelligence to the study of failed messianic, ethnic and religious nationalist movements throughout history, both Jewish and non-Jewish, perhaps he would jump ship from Likud Zionism before it hits the iceberg.
Gets confusing, this being Jewish! I spend half my time being told how awful the gentiles in Europe were- they made us live in ghettos! And the other half the time somebody is telling me how awful those Gentiles are, they won’t let us live in ghettos, like we want to and Jewish laws demand.
What a frickin’ farce! Oh, and BTW, just living in a neighborhood which contains other Jews doth not a “Jewish community” make. Even if it has gates on it.
@ Mooser
So, what community college did you attend for awhile? Did you ever get to the point where you had to pick a major for further study? How dare you joke at Zell’s superior academic expense.
I dropped out (to avoid working) about 6th or 7th grade. They kept on telling me “the more education you have, the better your chances of finding a good job”. Well, I wasn’t about to let that happen!
Being smart isn’t equal to being right or for that matter moral.
See my previous example of Albert Speer.
Yep, he sounds smart and he impresses you intellectually.
But distinguish between the man and the violent and racist ideology he espouses with fanatical conviction and he callous and cold way he treats Phil’s humanistic arguments.
That’s the man you should judge, not if he knows 8 or 18 languages.
“…Now, if he applied his formidable intelligence to the study of failed messianic, ethnic and religious nationalist movements throughout history, both Jewish and non-Jewish, perhaps he would jump ship from Likud Zionism before it hits the iceberg.”
Ho-hum. The average IQ of the first batch of Nuremberg defendants:
link to tommcmahon.net
They range from 106 to 143 — with all but two at 120 or above. Moreover, I forget where I read it, but as I recall, all but one were evaluated as being ‘normal’ (or something to that effect.) We’ve pretty much got a decent intake for Harvard there.
How many of them ‘jumped ship?’ Intelligence — formidable or otherwise — is no guarantee of either rationality or morality. At a guess, Zell is dug in in his personal fuhrerbunker — and what someone interpreted as ‘his willingness to consider opposing arguments’ is probably just him driving back the latest enemy assault.
@ Colin Wright
Of the Nuremberg defendants, if memory serves, only Julius Streicher was of mere or near normal intelligence–he must have been the 106 IQ tested. He’s also the only one executed for (his version of) free speech.
Hjalmar Schacht, the finance minister, had the highest, 143, again, if memory serves.
Maybe there’s a lesson in that, eh?
The rorschaht (sic) tests they gave them were really stupid.
Sean,
Much as I admire your analytical skills, your Achilles’ heel is that you’re far too easily impressed by an Ivy League education.
libra,
You wrote,
“Much as I admire your analytical skills, your Achilles’ heel is that you’re far too easily impressed by an Ivy League education.”
I haven’t been much impressed by the Ivy League backgrounds of George W. Bush (Yale, Harvard), Mitt Romney (Harvard), Richard Perle (Princeton), William Kristol (Harvard), Daniel Pipes (Harvard), Dan Senor (Harvard), Martin Peretz (Harvard), etc. (I do think that that Leon Wieseltier — Harvard — is smart — albeit irrevocably warped.)
I expected Marc Zell to be a numbskull and ideological simpleton like Douglas Feith and the rest of the neocons, but he struck me as someone with whom one might conduct an intelligent conversation. In fact, I am willing to bet that he is someone who could be flipped — who could be deprogrammed and restored to sanity with enough effort.
But in the meantime Zell is basically as crazy as Pamela Geller. To understand Likud Zionism at its core, just take a close look at Pamela Geller and Ovadia Yosef — they make no efforts to conceal or prettify what they are really about.
Sean,
“I am willing to bet that he [Zell] is someone who could be flipped.”
Maybe by a Jewish shrink. His obsession with Jewish identity is pathological. (So is Phil’s.)
“His obsession with Jewish identity is pathological. (So is Phil’s.)”
Now, I was taught (in 5th grade, just before I dropped out) that something pathological is something that harms you, another use for it would be something that harms others.
So please tell me, Klaus, indeed, tell us all, how Phil’s “obsession” (always easy to judge when you haven’t met a person) is hurting himself, or others?
Do you think he’ll get RSS from typing too many articles or something?
Well, well, here it is, a new day, sun shining, birds on the wing, snail on the thorn, God’s in His heaven and all’s right with the world, but still no explanation from Klaus about Phil’s “pathological” “obsession with Jewish identity”.
I’m sure he’ll get to it today. After all, what kind of person would leave a charge like that unsubstantiated? I mean, you know, saying that Mondoweiss is the result of a “pathological obsession with Jewish identity” and not engendered by concern both for the Palestinians, and in several ways, the welfare of the Jews? That’s not nice. No doubt Klaus will take out his horn and toot on it today. Anyway, it’s a good thing that nobody was ever obsessed by German identity. That could get ugly.
It is sad that someone views his only way to maintain his identity is to do it on the expense of others and in a formalized system of apartheid (hence his choice to live in the OT). I personally think that if your identity needs to be defined by oppressing and dispossessing other people, it’s probably a psychopathic identity, one that should be discouraged rather than fought for.
Great interview,
This guy is open, honest and stumbles his way through answers to Phil’s prickly questions ultimating presenting a position which is probably as reasonable as any that supports the status quo.
But that’s the toughest thing about the discussing the I/P situation – all the parameters upon which we judge it operate on a kind of sliding scale. Move them all incrementally one way and you have this guy’s perspective, the other way, Phils.
polly, facts matter.
Polly sounds like somebody who’s standing on a weighing scale, and sliding the scale weight along the pound lines to register the weight–and does not realize the lines are real in the sense they register the accumulated weight on the scale. Or, as Annie says, “facts (pounds actually) matter.”
Actually I stupidly neglected to point out I completely disagree with Zell’s views here – probably too eager in supporting Phil’s interest in interviewing people like him in the first place.
But where do you get that I think facts don’t matter?
There is a demonstrable difference between the conventional mainstream wisdom on the I/P issue and what the majority of posters at this site (including myself) believe the facts to be.
Zell’s facts are wrong in my opinion and he is certainly part of a monstrous obstacle to any just resolution, but he ain’t no monster himself is all I’m saying – I’ll always applaud Phil for interviews like this.
@ Polly
I don’t disagree with you here. Zell’s “facts” are wrong. And, Phil deserves kudos for enticing Zell to feel comfortable enough to speak freely–I hope Phil posts the balance of his taped interview with Zell.
First Richard Cohen, now Marc Zell. The Jewish man’s burden a new version of an old mindset. His ‘nuanced’ view of universalism versus separatism an example of trying to have your cake and eat it too. His historicity appalling. It is easy to believe what is convenient to believe. Self deception the rule, not the exception.
Also Zell was a partner in
the Iraqi International Law Group, a new outfit formed in 2003 to operate in Iraq, the first international law firm since the founding of Iraq–right after our troops took Iraq, it was ready to help you secure contracts for rebuilding Iraq. The head of IILG was Salem Chalabi.
Name sound familiar? Related to Ahmed Chalabi? You bet: Salem’s Ahmed’s nephew.
Zell is plenty smart and cunning and greedily opportunistic–that’s where his brains go, not in the issues Phil tried to discuss with him. To Zell, Phil was a bit of mild entertainment. Zell’s a big boy, a macher.
“To Zell, Phil was a bit of mild entertainment. Zell’s a big boy, a macher.”
Bingo, Citizen. B-i-n-g-freakin-o!
RE: “In the conversation above, he [Marc Zell] says that he moved to the occupied territories because of concerns about American Jewish identity. ‘We need to be separate’, he said. Rather than allow our identities to become ‘diluted’ in America, we need to maintain a ‘separate stream’.” ~ Weiss
MY SNARK: “White power!”
FROM GEORGE WALLACE (1963 Inaugural Address ~ January 14, 1963 ~ Montgomery, Alabama):
SOURCE – link to archives.alabama.gov
The only key difference between white nationalism and Jewish nationalism is that Jewish nationalism is embraced by the Jewish establishment and mainstream Jews and has become by far the leading messianic cult in American culture and politics.
But the truth is, Jewish nationalism should enjoy no more legitimacy in the United States and Europe than white nationalism. It should be delegitimized and marginalized. Ethnic and religious nationalism have no place in America — especially ethnic and religious nationalism organized around the interests of a foreign government.
Are there any significant differences between the ethnic nationalist ideologies of David Duke and Benjamin Netanyahu (or Marc Zell and his fellow Jewish neocons)?
No, there aren’t.
“The only key difference between white nationalism and Jewish nationalism is that Jewish nationalism is embraced by the Jewish establishment and mainstream Jews and has become by far the leading messianic cult in American culture and politics…”
I’ve said this before — but I’ll say it again, because I think it’s important, and it needs to be understood or you’ll keep fighting the wrong enemy.
American Jews, by and large, do support Israel, but more out of a sense of obligation than out of any real visceral enthusiasm. There is a minority of loud exceptions but most I think the center of the Jewish view could be about described as a wistful for wish for a ‘nice’ Israel — at peace with its neighbors, without demands for more territory, with an edifyingly egalitarian attitude towards its Palestinian minority — maybe even with a few actual geriatic survivors of 1948 let back in with much self-congratulation.
That’s not the problem. Jews are only 2% of the American electorate in the first place.
The problem are all the Evangelicals, who virtually all support Israel vociferously, who only applaud the more vigorously the worse she gets, and who make up more like 20% of the electorate than 2%.
What is the point of this interview? Why conduct it in such a timid and ingratiating manner, letting the settler get away with his smooth stream of lies mixed with half-truths? When he said “some fled, we drove some away” why not throw in “and some we massacred”? Why not talk with Palestinians living around Tekoah first and get some specific accusations to bring up (rather than vague talk about not treating people well)? Why avoid using the word Palestinians? Why not risk getting the man annoyed? If he had cut the interview short, all the better for exposing him. At least then people wouldn’t go on about how charming he is.
The point is, this is what an intelligent settler sounds like when he’s not feeling attacked and trying to appear reasonable. Phil wanted us to see the undiluted craziness of his position, and he is sharing it with us for that reason. “Know thy enemy.”
lobewyper says:
August 11, 2012 at 4:43 pm
The point is, this is what an intelligent settler sounds like when he’s not feeling attacked and trying to appear reasonable. Phil wanted us to see the undiluted craziness of his position, and he is sharing it with us for that reason”…
I agree. Really a classic.
@ American
If Phil intended that, he succeeded very well. I thought Phil’s article was way too short, skimpy to the extreme; perhaps he plans a follow-up? Or is that just me? We didn’t get any of Phil’s “asides,” even.
To Zell, Phil was a bit of mild entertainment. Zell’s a big boy, a macher.
Believe me, any time Phil really becomes a nuisance to people like Zell, they will know what to do, with one lift of the eyebrow, and one point of the finger. (God Forbid, and may my tongue rot for saying it, but it’s true.)
God help me, what am I saying? No, they won’t kill him, just crack his skull real good, and break some bones. No murder charges, and one unfriendly journalist scrambled.
But sweet Jesus, what am I supposed to think? You can’t see them working themselves up to doing something about this “cesspool of hate”?
No, Phil is smart, he knows what he is doing, and he’s waaay too smart to think, ‘they won’t hurt me, I’m a Jew, smear me, sure, turn my family against me, maybe, but hurt me, another Jew’.
God help me should anything like this ever happens, I said it first. Please tell me they won’t print this.
I’ve regretted lots of comments, but not like I regret that one. I hope it turns out to be the most ridiculous comment I’ve ever made. God damn me for saying it.
You mean that comment cut much too close to the truth?
“You mean that comment cut much too close to the truth?”
Are you nuts? “The truth”? Has anybody laid a finger on him yet? So much as expectorated in his direction? What is this “truth” you are talking about? That Zionists are not above using physical attacks on their ideological “enemies”? That’s hardly a revelation, is it?
I don’t know whether to be concerned about his physical well-being or not, and I’m very conflicted about it. I don’t know whether to caution them (it goes for the whole staff) or just trust in God, and their common sense and instincts, and not make a noise which will attract the Evil Eye, not that he doesn’t make time every day to look in on me.
i’ve been meaning to write this for days but always got distracted when i was about to look up joan peter’s name. i forgot her name,and i did get around to googling From Time Immortal but surprise surprise it got me nowhere. then i googled norm knowing i’d find her name attched to his,and got lost at his site the other night.
so, the reason i think phil posted it was to demonstrate how warped AND retro these people are. it is as if they don’t know all that stuffs been debunked. as if there is a whole audience waiting in the wings just on the verge of puberty or adulthood and not a one of them have heard their BS, so they roll it out as if it is the most natural thing in the world. as if everyone will respond the was they did in 1984, as if the world just stands still in hasbaralalaland.
so he kept him going and zell spilled his beans and oh what a fool he thinks we all are.
Yeah, zionists improved the lives of Palestinians by expropriating large amounts of their wealth, forcing them out of their land of origin, destroying many of their homes or confiscating them, and forcing them into refugee camps?
@ lyn117
Yeah, Phil could have said, “So, you agree with Mitt Romney, the problem is in the defective Palestinian culture?” Well, as someone said here, maybe Phil just wanted to let Zell speak without the slightest nuance of threat, almost as if he was speaking not to Phil of MW fame, but to Bibi, and in total privacy?
Tho I didn’t listen to the end of the interview, I sort of understand the wish for a journalist to establish some rapport with the interviewee. Zionists like him, when confronted, just fall back on their standard repertoire of mythology. Lies, in other words. Confronting such a person with truth won’t change his mind.
I think Palestinians are getting a little tired of all this “Jewish” identity crap…they are the ones who have to suffer as a result of that existential question: “Who am I?”
Well, I can’t be charmed by anyone who spews such standard zionist hogwash. Claiming that most Palestinian Arabs immigrated to Palestine because they were attracted to the economic boom zionists were creating there? Honestly, I don’t know why I’m disgusted by inveterate liars like Zell, but I am.
how is it different than saying Israelis are all European settlers who arrived in 1948?
Merk: ‘how is it different than saying Israelis are all European settlers who arrived in 1948?’
That’s as if I said ‘how is it different for me to assert that I have just won an Olympic Gold medal and for me to assert that I have mostly finished the deck.’
One assertion isn’t true. The other is.
“how is it different than saying Israelis are all European settlers who arrived in 1948?”
What Zell says is a lie. Saying that most Israeli (Jews) are settlers, recent immigrants or their immediate descendants, is the truth. That’s what’s different.
Palestinians are not recent immigrants to Palestine, they’ve lived there for 1000s of years, except some small minority. They were largely there 1000s of years before the zionists.
did you leave out the word European on purpose lyn? are you saying that no Arabs immigrated to Palestine? they were always just there?
Arabs have been the majority in Palestine since the 7th century you brainiac.
But I bet you went to Hebrew school and weren’t taught that ; )
@Merk, I did not say no Arabs immigrated to Palestine, in fact, I said “except for some small minority” in reference to those Arabs who did immigrate to Palestine. That’s just a typical propaganda trick, to create a “straw man” to attack.
Prior to 1948, it’s absolutely true that the the majority of Jews in Palestine were immigrants from Europe. Subsequent to Israel’s establishment as far as I know that is not the case. Nevertheless, the vast majority of Israel’s Jews are immigrants or their immediate descendants.
Yes, the Palestinians were always “just there.” Ever since it was called Palestine, at least some 2500 years ago. Before that, they were “just there,” but called something else. It isn’t as if the area hasn’t known immigration and invasion from other places, like almost any region in the world, but the core of the people were “just there.”
@ Dexter
Maybe he’s an American; here in America it’s legally OK to say you served in the US military even if you didn’t.
“Arabs have been the majority in Palestine since the 7th century you brainiac.
But I bet you went to Hebrew school and weren’t taught that ; )”
?
As far as I know, prior to Zionism, there’s no evidence of any wholesale population movement into or out of Palestine: various tricklings and new groups and things — but no wholesale replacement.
You seem to be echoing this notion that ‘the Arabs’ conquered Palestine and entered at that point. No…Islamic conquerors obviously took power, but most of the people stayed right where they were. I was reading a history of the Islamic expansion, and while there appears to have been some substantial population movement from Arabia into Southern Iraq, no such influx occurred into ‘Syria’ — which term at the time included Palestine.
The Palestinians are more or less the same people who have always been there. Obviously, the practice of Judaism was virtually abandoned, and Christianity is way down — but all the evidence is that they are mostly the same folks.
The Arab conquest — like the Persian conquest, and like the Hellenic conquest, and like the Roman conquest — was like most pre-modern acts of conquest. A relatively small group came in, took the top jobs, and both imposed its own culture and adapted to the culture of the natives.
Zionism is a novelty. It alone has brought a whole new people to Palestine and driven the natives out in their favor.
. “It isn’t as if the area hasn’t known immigration and invasion from other places, like almost any region in the world, but the core of the people were “just there.”
You know something? I don’t care if the freakin’ Palestinians arrived the day before the Zionists, and called themselves, I don’t know, Carpathians, or something. They were people and the were living there, and the Zionists had no right, let alone the obligation or need, to do what they did to them. The rights belonged to each of them individually, not as a “collective”
Their rights are not states rights, or sovereign rights, or territorial rights. They are human rights and those rights were grievously and gratuitously offended.
And have human right been grievously and gratuitously offended many times in the world? Why yes they have, and each incident which can be adjusted or repaired to whatever extent makes the next one more unlikely. So take that “singling Israel out” crap and stuff it, Hasbaratchniks
Zell is a professional liar. If he really and sincerely desires separation, why is he so deeply involved in American politics and neoconservatism? Why does he still have law offices in Washington? Why was he a member of the Iraqi International Law Group in 2003 when the country was still a smoldering pile of ruins as a result of America’s aggressive war?
No, Zell’s international involvements in politics reveals that he does not honestly want separation. He wants control.
@ Ranjit Suresh
Zell is a professional liar, yes; he took every opportunity to foster the War on Iraq, worked with those willing to lie to get the US stuck there, and ASAP, help set up and operate the Iraqi International Group to exploit US contracts before the embers of the war had even died down. Zell is all about Zell first, and empowering Israel simultaneously. He figures it’s a win-win for those he cares about, and so it has been.
Too bad for the rest of us. Like Mitt, he thinks some people are smart, (and have connections), and some are not, and that’s just the luck of the draw.
First, Zell says the world is “hostile to Jewish values” and goes on to mention circumcision and attempts to ban it. What the hell? Is circumcision a Jewish value? It’s a custom, not a value. “That same set of value, those Jewish values, gave birth to a major component of Western culture.” I find this talk extremely offensive in that he almost completely dismisses the contributions of many non-Jews to Western culture, not even to mention the contribution of all the many, many, non-Jews to human culture in general. It is so extremely, stupidly, chauvinistic. Something Jews shouldn’t forget — they as much as the Western gentile world benefited from the advances of the Enlightenment, when they as the with gentile world, began to move away from the power and influence of religion view the world from a far more secular perspective. And the Enlightenment was not a “Jewish” phenomenon, although Spinoza is considered to be a contributor. The Renaissance was wholly a gentile phenomenon, and look at the brilliance that came from that.
quercus,
“those Jewish values, gave birth to a major component of Western culture.” – Zell
More than that – of the whole world! This intellectual and moral arrogance is recurring. The head of the Jewish community in Germany said this:
“The Ten Commandments became the moral foundation of the whole world.”
As everyone knows, Yahwe gave the Ten Commandments to the Jews (3500 years ago) and they passed them on to the world … if it weren’t for the Jews, the whole world would be morally lost.
“As everyone knows, Yahwe gave the Ten Commandments to the Jews (3500 years ago) and they passed them on to the world … if it weren’t for the Jews, the whole world would be morally lost.”
Of course, the Ten Commandments are largely redundant and can be reduced to only two commandments, as George Carlin demonstrated in this brilliant and incisive philosphical lecture: link to youtube.com
Thanks for the link to George Carlin on the Ten Commandments
“Is circumcision a Jewish value? It’s a custom, not a value.”
As a circumcised gentile, I say it’s a “valued custom!”
Calling circumcision a “custom” understates its religious significance as a central symbol of the covenant between God and His chosen people. But it is also a barbaric assault on a defenseless infant and I am very appreciative of the German court for ruling against it.
Cannot argue with that. A child has no choice in the matter.
Calling routine baby boy circumcision in American hospitals a custom where Jews and Muslims are a small minority of the American population is appropriate and accurate. And, yes, it is a custom which is also a barbaric assault on a defenseless infant. There is no medical or health excuse for routine baby boy circumcision. That’s why it does not exist in any other Western country.
Calling circumcision a “custom” understates its religious significance as a central symbol of the covenant between God and His chosen people.
I’ve noted elsewhere today that you could take out an advertisement with MTA that described it as infant genital mutilation practiced by a bunch of ignorant savages. link to mondoweiss.net
Stephen, I’m with you! Any Jewish male who decides he needs to be circumcised should be given a couple gold-plated razor blades and an ampoule of xylocaine at his Bar Mitzvah…
Lol. The circumcision argument rides again!
Weiss can’t kill this beast. He’ll probably have to either (a) permit a ‘repetitive arguments about circumcision’ thread or (b) start banning an ever-widening range of terms and polemical synonyms starting with ‘circumcision’ and widening through ‘infant mutilation,’ ‘harmless religious ritual,’ ‘certain barbaric custom,’ ‘vital cultural ceremony,’ etc, etc.
He’s screwed. He never should have let that article go up.
“He’s screwed. He never should have let that article go up.”
No, chump, he was screwed when he took the article down! But of course, a guy who thinks guns make peace, torture produces truth, and Indians depleted our natural resources could never see that. I’ll give you this, Colin, you’re pretty consistently cowardly.
Mooser says: ‘I’ll give you this, Colin, you’re pretty consistently cowardly.’
Hm. My reply to this didn’t appear. It wasn’t obscene. It wasn’t even insulting.
Colin, I am convinced, although I don’t have proof positive, that the Mondoweiss comment system sometimes drops comments. Not often, but it happens, I think. Best thing is to copy the comment to clipboard, or another program, and if it is dropped, you have another copy to submit.
myself i always suspect human agency
If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again. My Mom (may she rest in peace, in a leopard-skin pillbox hat) always told me that, and well she should, ’cause she wasn’t about to make the effort!
Zell also speaks in a contradictory fashion. On the one hand, he says that Jewish values gave birth to a major component of Western culture, and on the other hand, he says, the world is now hostile to those same (my word) values. How is it possible that a society becomes hostile to its own values? I don’t imagine he could explain that very easily. In fact, he is not particularly intelligent. He just spouts a great deal of the Zionist narrative and myth.
I hear a lot of this nonsense from Zionists. There is no recognition at all, that in fact, Jewish culture itself has very likely been affected and influenced by gentile culture. No group, no person, lives in a vacuum.
I agree. I don’t find Zell impressive or sympathetic. In addition to the hasbara lies already pointed discussed here — anti-circumcision laws indicate hostility towards Jewish values? Seriously? Zell never learned about Occam’s Razor during his pricey education?
I suppose some of the posters here are so used to sociopathic Hebron and pricetag types that this supposedly “reasonable” settler makes a good impression. That says more about how low the bar is at this stage in terms of acceptable behavior and language than it does about Zell.
Mark Zell says: “I’m not religious.”
I think it’s more difficult for a non-religious Jew to keep his Jewish identity in America than it is to keep that identity in Israel. Zell may be ‘mistaken’ for a gentile in America but not in Israel. – But where did he get this compulsive idea to preserve his Jewishness from?
“Mark Zell says: “I’m not religious.” “
As far as I can see, Mark would be better off deciding he is religious. If one strips the religion out of his justification, all that would be left would be unadorned racism.
The difference may be academic, but somehow it sounds better if someone says ‘I get this because God told me it’s mine’ rather than ‘I get this because I am worth more than you.’ Or does he rely on a ‘history’ that doesn’t exist and wouldn’t serve anyone else to justify a similar claim anyway?
I agree with Stephen, the ingratiating bits are embarrassing on my part. That said, I saw a real value in allowing Zell to expatiate on these subjects; I think it is important to understand how transnational actors like Zell operate. I have another 7 minute tape of Zell talking American politics, maybe I should put that up. Phil
@ Phil Weiss
Please do put up those additional 7 minutes.
On the other hand it’s probably a very effective technique with someone with Zell. And what better timing than just after he’d been ingratiating himself to Romney? He probably let his guard down somewhat causing him to reveal more than he may otherwise have done to a more confrontational interviewer.
I had to laugh though when Zell seemed to think he was being interviewed by a “network” – I’m sure the only deceit involved was by Zell’s ego.
“On the other hand it’s probably a very effective technique with someone with Zell.”
It’s called verbal judo.
Meanwhile, Israeli soldiers are preventing Palestinian farmers from accessing much what land they have left after Israel turned a lot of it into “nature reserves.”
link to youtube.com
Zell proudly proclaims Jews “allow” Arabs to live in Israel, only after driving out most of them out, and at the same time as more are being driven out? And proudly proclaims that they brought 2-story buildings to the neighboring Arab village of Tuqu, as they deny its farmers access to their land? And this is an example of “Jewish morality?”
I take it back, you should read some of the descriptions of zionist take-overs of Palestinian villages to this man, if this is what he claims is “Jewish morality”
Yes Lyn,
Zell has never before addressed an audience on this topic that rejected his hasbra talking points. Phil was respectful and non confrontational and this allowed Zell to sound reasonable. Had Phil challenged his lies, it might have bee amuch more hostile outcome.
Had Phil challenged his lies…
He would have called the hotel staff and had Phil thrown out. You know, “security risk”.
i dont think thats true mooser. i think he would have been p.o.’d but that’s it
@ Phil
Mooser was just kidding you Phil; Mooser never means what he says, or directly or indirectly implies, except when he does.
Thank you Citizen for translation. Though sometimes he’s earnest, right?
Phil, if there’s anything I understand, it’s the importance of being earnest.
Especially when a cop asks me for ID.
I take what Mooser says always on face value.
—————————
But here is somthing that I was wondering about: How did Phil identify himself? I suppose, he didn’t wear a kippa. Does he look unmistakably Jewish? The name – Philip Weiss – is straight German. It is derived from Middle High German “weise” or “waise” meaning “orphan child” – did you know that Phil?
It is not the same as “weiß”, meaning “white”. Although it’s likely that the name was originally ‘Weiß’ and turned into ‘Weiss’.
“i dont think thats true mooser. i think he would have been p.o.’d but that’s it”
Oh, I see. I mean, after all, you’re another Jew. Tribal unity, all that. It’s not like you’re an Arab or something.
He would have called the hotel staff and had Phil thrown out. You know, “security risk”.
Not by any Arab staff. That would have set a very bad precedent.
-”It’s not like you’re an Arab or something.” – Don’t be silly Mooser.
Phil could have been mistaken for a German because of his name – see my comment on “Weiss” – and thrown out (a German court in Cologne outlawed circumcision, so far).
“Phil could have been mistaken for a German because of his name – see my comment on “Weiss” – and thrown out (a German court in Cologne outlawed circumcision, so far).”
Klaus it’s the way you dig down and get right to the heart of an argument, the way you’re completely unafraid to say what it all really about, which continues to astound and to some degree, frighten me. God forbid that I should ever be the subject of your cogitations. It must be like one of those horrible nightmares where I’m naked in front of large crowds, but there’s no door on the bathroom.
“I take what Mooser says always on face value.”
And well you should, Klaus. After all, it’s one that staunched a thousand ships!
“Does he look unmistakably Jewish?”
Since Jews are of many different ethnic strains, and may not wear identifiable clothing in all cases, certain “recognition signals” have been developed to identify therichtiker chaifetz . A whining noise pitched too high for human ears is one of them, and certain passwords also work, ie “Is that Kosher pickle in your pocket, or are you just frailech to see me?”
Wait a minute, that’s not funny unless you’ve read “yonah” on “Jew-baiting”.
Just never order a “pastrami sandwhich” if you want to get out of the deli unharmed.
My Dad was in Women’s Lingerie for a while. His line of schmattas was not so good, but oh, how he could charm customers with his smile. He had a face that launched a thousand slips.
Look, when I do a job, I see it through!
What’s the difference between ‘Jewish’ values and normal ‘human’ values?
Why do I keep hearing about ‘Jewish’ values as if they are a unique and distinct set of values from the rest of the world?
“Why do I keep hearing about ‘Jewish’ values as if they are a unique and distinct set of values from the rest of the world?”
If you knew the secret recognition signals, you would know what “Jewish values” are. And they start at %50 percent of retail and go down!
Good question.
“Zrow says:
August 11, 2012 at 7:36 pm
What’s the difference between ‘Jewish’ values and normal ‘human’ values?
Why do I keep hearing about ‘Jewish’ values as if they are a unique and distinct set of values from the rest of the world?
>>>>>>>
That been my question from the beginning of all the Jewish identity and values discussions.
It so bugged me that I swore some time ago I would quit my own habit of referring to ‘American values’ as the same kind of ‘gold standard’ for values.
And never have since then.
American, Jewish values you want? Okay, how about this: I just picked up a set of Hammond XPK-200 pedals (used, at Guitar Center) for my portable rig (Nord C2) and paid $239.00!! Even with shipping it was a steal.
Yeah? Plug it in.
“Yeah? Plug it in.”
Oy Gevalt MRW, don’t do that to me! They should work. It’s just a simple MIDI note on/off switch, and plugs into the “pedals” MIDI plug. The fact that they are different brands (organ: Nord C2, pedals: Hammond-Suzuki) shouldn’t make any difference. I’m just going to have to try it when it gets delivered. I have a 60-day return privilege, so I’m pretty safe if it doesn’t, but it should.
- “Jewish values and normal human values?”
——————————————————————-
There are in fact differences – Mooser is a good case in point:
He labels his stuff at say $ 150 – you get a discount of 30% and get it for $ 100.
A Christian human would label the same stuff at $100 with no discount.
Isn’t it so with your comments Mooser? They are overpriced to begin with – but they are reasonable after a 30% discount.
Let me tell you something serious Mooser (beside the 30% discount joke).
——————————————————————————————————————
A core Christian value or idea of Christinanity is this:
- Evil must not be destroyed – it can be reconciled.
- Didn’t we succeed in that, you and me?
“He labels his stuff at say $ 150 – you get a discount of 30% and get it for $ 100.
A Christian human would label the same stuff at $100 with no discount.”
“the 30% discount joke”.
Oy, I’ll get back to you when I finish my hysterics. Where did you get that one Klaus? I’ve never, ever heard it before!! Baby, if laughter is the best medicine, I’m cured! Okay, let me catch my breath. When a joke is that good (and so, so telling) I don’t mind being the butt of it, not at all.
A Christian human would label the same stuff at $100 with no discount.
safeway must not be christian then. the way it used to be they would have items on sale and everyone got the sale price. now at the checkout you are supposed to enter your id card and only then does the discount appear, otherwise you pay full price. i don’t like being tracked so i use an old phone number/safeway id from a roomate from the turn of the century, then pay with cash.otherwise they connect you thru your credit card. it’s so much bs.
Notice, too if you will, that I, the Jew, am just called “he”. Ah, but the Christian is, of course “human”. Besides the usual slur on Jewish financial machinations.
Why, if I didn’t think Klaus’ English was so inadequate for his purposes, I might get offended.
“”Evil must not be destroyed – it can be reconciled.”….Krauss
That sounds dumb to me.
How exactly do you ‘reconcile’ with evil if you don’t stop it first?
Can you give me an example?
I forgot to ask you something Mooser.
Tell me a core ethical concept of Judaism (I told you a Christian one).
I know that you think Zionism isn’t Judaism. But then: What is Judaism?
Is it Marx/Lenin’s idea of being the vanguard of mankind?
If it is, it’s a satisfying idea – and I wish I were Jewish.
American,
It’s me Klaus, not Krauss.
“How exactly do you ‘reconcile’ with evil if you don’t stop it first?”
—————————————————————————————————
You can turn your enemy into a friend. That’s possible and that’s Christian.
>> Notice, too if you will, that I, the Jew, am just called “he”. Ah, but the Christian is, of course “human”.
You’re right – he should have referred to you as “The Jewish Ungulate”. ;-)
“I forgot to ask you something Mooser.
Tell me a core ethical concept of Judaism”
Now, Klaus, as I mentioned, I’m no expert(in English: Mayhvan) on Jewish theology, but the basic, core ethical concepts were inculcated early in me, and I have never forgotten them. Since you asked for “a” core concept, I will go with the most basic and most essential: Never pay retail!
Happy to respond to your query, Klaus, and I hope this brings Semitic-Teutonic amity to unheard-of heights.
“You can turn your enemy into a friend. That’s possible and that’s Christian.”
Klaus, you’re making me feel terrible! Gosh, America, which calls itself a Christian nation, really didn’t do what it should have, vis-a-vis Germany 1938-1944. I apologise for our hypocrisy, and failure of reconciliation.
“You’re right – he should have referred to you as “The Jewish Ungulate”. ;-)”
Thank you, eljay! At least somebody around here gives me a little consideration!
“- Didn’t we succeed in that, you and me?
I think we got pretty close, Klaus
This time we almost made the pieces fit
Didn’t we, Klaus?
This time we almost made some sense of it
Didn’t we, Klaus?
This time we had the answer right here in our hands,
Then I touched it and turned to sand,
This time we almost sang our song in tune
Didn’t we, Klaus?
This time we almost made it to the moon ,
Didn’t we, Klaus?
This time we almost made our poem rhyme,
This time we almost made that long hard climb,
Didn’t we almost make it this time, you and me?
And don’t ask me if it should be “you and I”
or if it should be “you and me”
For if the truth be told,
That’s beyond my orthography
Mooser, your reaction is ridiculous – “slur on Jewish financial machinations.”
——————————————————————————————————————–
Zrow says: August 11, 2012 at 7:36 pm
“What’s the difference between ‘Jewish’ values and normal ‘human’ values?”
Mooser says: August 12, 2012 at 2:09 pm
“If you knew the secret recognition signals, you would know what “Jewish values” are. And they start at %50 percent of retail and go down!”
————————————————————————————————————–
Your joke was “Jewish values” were “%50 percent of retail and go down”.
I just picked up on YOUR joke! – Hell, why cant’t you get it right Mooser?
@ Klaus
Sorry, Krauss was a slip.
However, for instance, how would the Palestines turn Israel into a friend or israel turn Palestine into a friend?
I have always said the ‘first step in that would have to be Israels –returning all the Palestine land and resources they have taken.
There is nothing Palestine can offer for Israeli friendship except to quit fighting them for their land and homes and lives.
Israel is never going to do that.
American,
You asked me to give an example how to ‘reconcile with evil’.
Obama’s Cairo speech was a try to turn the Arab enemies into friends.
Who aborted it? – The Israelis with their continuation of settlements.
That’s a real nice poem Mooser. I always suspected you were a romantic.
You are the Heinrich Heine of Mondoweiss.
- “This time we almost made it to the moon,
- Didn’t we, Klaus?”
———————————————————–
I would like to return the kindness of your poem by telling you a story from a German children’s book, ‘A Boy climbing to the Moon’:
There was little boy who wanted to go to the moon. – He had a pencil and drew a ladder to climb up to the moon. – The ladder got longer and longer and he had to sharpen his pencil to keep drawing the ladder. – When he got very close to the moon the pencil had been sharpend to the very end and he couldn’t draw the last rundles. – He had to climb back down to the earth where he lived happily ever after.
I forgot to ask you something Mooser.
Tell me a core ethical concept of Judaism (I told you a Christian one).
There was a similar request recently here:
link to mondoweiss.net
I pointed out that the two core Christian values that were cited in the original post were simply discussions about the commandments contained in much older Jewish scriptures. Those discussions were recorded and became part of the Christian bible. link to mondoweiss.net
They just came, and I got myself one heck of a deal. Jewish values in action!
Much better condition than I expected, and all complete, and all working.
Hostage,
I don’t really understand what you refer to, “the two core Christian values”.
My point was: Judaism – unlike Christianity – doesn’t have a concept of turning an enemy into a friend, turning evil into good. Evil can only be destroyed. – There is the realm of light and the realm of darkness. The two can’t reconcile.- There is an eternal struggle between the (good) Jews and the (evil) Gentiles.
The book: “An End to Evil: How to Win the War on Terror” by Richard Perle and David Frum is a case in point. – Evil can only be destroyed.
—————————————————————————
BTW, Mooser replied to my question “tell me a core concept of Judaism”
by saying: “NEVER PAY RETAIL!” – No goy could ever dare to proclaim that that’s “a core concept of Judism”. One has to be Mooser to say so.
Zell says he would be confortable to proclaim Israel’s achievements in fron tof any audience, including Mondoweiss. The guy is deluded. Every one of his arguments would be shredded. His whole argument is lies based on lies.
Zell say America’s melting pot symbolizes cultural diversity in the sense of requiring non-assimilation for the Jews because they must stand apart, so to say, so they, the Jews, can contribute to the betterment of Gentiles’ civilization. Interesting take on the metaphor of a “melting pot.” Maybe German and Irish Americans should take the same stance? Or would they just be called David Duke racists?
So, whites, er I mean Jews should be proud of their huge contributions to the world’s civilization, and now they find their identity being lost, being “diluted,” by too much universalism. Gotta have a balance of universalism and “tribalism.” Keen. Straight from the mouth of David Duke, er I mean Marc Zell.
The blacks and native Americans in USA have a “pretty good deal,” er, I mean, the Arabs under Israel control have a pretty good deal compared with what they’d have elsewhere. It’s like the half empty or half full glass.
So, Zell claims in a nutshell that the Gentiles are always better off under the Jewish thumb than they would be under their own thumb, and that Jews should not melt away but the Gentiles of whatever stripe should–in behalf of human harmony. Zell has chosen himself and his tribe as the only human beings worthy of full emancipation and ability to choose. Now, as the Church Lady says, “Isn’t that special!”
This is exactly right. Frankly, most white nationalists these days pay lip service to the right of self-determination for colored peoples. They just insist that we should express that autonomy elsewhere.
People like Zell, I argue, are more extreme. They deny self-determination and autonomy to everyone except their kinship network. This is the mindset of empire-builders.
By the time of Caracalla, all free men were granted citizenship in the Roman Empire – including in Palestine. In other words, Zell and his type are more parochial, supremacist, and backward minded than a Roman emperor of the 3rd century.
That’s probably true – and it’s pretty fucking batshit crazy too.
As Gore Vidal said of Ayn Rand: One for one and none for all.
I’ve finally heard the man, the legend Philip Weiss speak. For some reason, I wasn’t picturing that to be what he would sound like. It’s not a bad thing at all, it just is. Great interview by the way. Good effort in trying to get Mittins to answer your questions at the Wailing Wall.
-YoungNeuroticNotLikeWoodyJew
I felt the same way when I first heard his voice…Reminded me of a high pitched german ;)
Anyways, Zell is well spoken, but that doesn’t mean a lot of his points had no basis in reality. The way he said it though is as if he believes every little detail of the historical past, and think the ‘dirty points’ is just the modern day treatment of Arabs.
How do you break to that mindset?
I don’t think you do. I don’t think you can.
In ‘The General’s Son’, which I read many months back, Miko Peled internally had to fight off fears and misconceptions despite being squarely in the ‘Pro-Peace’ camp. How do you break through this?
Based on the discussion of the Yankees a while back I was expecting him to sound like a former jock/meathead. Glad he isn’t.
“Based on the discussion of the Yankees a while back I was expecting him to sound like a former jock/meathead. Glad he isn’t.”
I thought you kids were all tech-savvy. You’ve never heard of digital voice processing? You never wondered why, when you call an American phone company, they all have strange, almost unintelligible foreign accents? It works in reverse, too. Get with it, kid.
YMJ,
Sounds to me like his own specially half-coiled whine. Sorta like Stuart Smiley with R Lee Ermey whispering a tad harshly in his ear to his lips.
Zell mentioned that some WB Palestinians live in multi-story houses, with the unspoken implication that the rest could do the same–if only they directed their energies toward self-improvement instead of hatred for the Israelis…
Phil vs Zell
——————-
I think Zell is more consistent on Jewish identity than Phil is.
Zell:
Jewishness is contributing to mankind. Do do so we have to stay separate.
We can’t keep a separate Jewish identity in America. – Therefore Israel.
Phil:
My understanding of Jewishness is what Herzl said: Welcome the stranger.
(That’s nice but not a definition of Jewishness.)
“Jewishness is contributing to mankind. Do do so we have to stay separate.”
Separate is fine. Separating is not.
@ MRW
RE: “Separate is fine. Separating is not.”
What does that mean? Where’s the red line? No intermarriage? Or, that’s OK so long as the lovely couple bring up their kids “Jewish”? Or, where?
How do you think Zell would answer this question? Same as you? Or Phil? Like Mooser?
Where all the fine lines are, I don’t know, Citizen. But where the bright red line is? I know that! That line is where Jews are not considered to be individual citizens, who may interact voluntarily with his co-religionists as much or as little as he (or she) pleases, but members of a group which admisters to itself, and deals with the non-Jewish world through representatives, either formal on non-formal. When that happens, it’s open season on women, children, the less powerful or those different in the Jewish community. At that point, all that horrid stuff about Jewish scriptures and theology does come into play. And of course, a community will need a militia, to defend itself, right? And it’s every Jewish boy’s obligation to defend his community….
And before anybody goes and consigns Jews to that special hell, consider this: there’s not one Christian denomination, sect, church, what have you, where the church members are willing to be ruled temporally civilly, by their religious leaders. Why not? It was the trend (civil power to churches) back when we started, and they could have set up America any way they wanted, but nobody wanted that.
So yeah, that’s the bright red line, when “community leaders” “represent” the community and individual members have no standing as citizens apart from their group identification.
And everybody is yelling “but we didn’t mean that.” Well then, you didn’t mean a Jewish community then, you just meant a voluntary religious association among Jews. Which is what we have now. You want to know what a “Jewish Community” looks like, look at Israel. There’s your “Jewish Community”. Gosh wouldn’t it be wonderful if we had a little Israel in oh, maybe five to ten Northeastern states, and one or two on the West Coast?
@Citizen,
I meant separating others from their homes and land because you happened to land in the nabes with a 3,000 year old map that claimed ownership.
@ Mooser
Thanks for your earnest and thoughtful response, Mooser. I appreciate it because I was serious when I asked MRW. I think your red line is important.
And, as you suggest, it actually is applicable to anyone born into any group neither with, nor without his or her consent. Thus it has universal applicability. And, as you also directly suggest, the converse is the very base of any government of any entity, or collective, whether elected or taken by economic and/or military force. That’s the reason why soldiers are indoctrinated not to view enemy troops (or ever more often, civilians) as individuals. The point is made in so many classic war films where the soldier (and audience) views the family photos just taken from the enemy soldier he just killed. A caveat: Because Jewish identity does not depend on a religion requiring belief in any G0d, nor belief in any “afterlife,” your distinction between a state/government, e.g., Israel, and a “voluntary religious association among Jews. Which is what we have now” remains gray, not red in the full sense–is that where one needs to bring in the concept of “tribe?” Even within the most tightly knit aboriginal tribes left on this planet, individual members, I imagine, have some eccentricities. But I like to think this means more than, say something comparably of more ramification than a personal preference for the color of one’s socks or which side one might part their hair on. Maybe you could give a few examples of individualism requiring, in and of itself, respect and tolerance, that is, treatment of X as an individual, not as a member of his or tribe? To bring up the examples I used, intermarriage, and bringing up the intermarried couple’s kids “Jewish.” What would that mean if the Jewish parent self-identifies as an extremely secular Jew? (“Separate is fine. Separating is not.”–MRW)
In America, ideally, we are all individuals, equal before the law. This concept, still not equally applied, is at least no longer marred by black slavery or “racial” laws, or legal gender discrimination (ideally) since the Civil Rights laws.
But this is my point (and thank you, Citizen, for wading through my comment) : A bunch of Jews (or anyone else) who happen to live on the same block, or even in the same building is a “community”. A community, has the capacity to rule, discipline, and tax its own members, and can maintain different standards for itself than the outside community. A community deals with the outside society through it’s leaders, and it deals internally with it’s own people. And whether or not you belong to that community and must submit to it is not a choice you get to make.
That is the reality of real separate confessional communities.
In my humble opinion, Jews have so much to thank the American ideal of individuals under one law for, and would be so loath to leave it, it’s laughable, absurd to talk about “separate” Jewish community. Especially as skin color is the dominant separator in American society, which makes all our complaints of “anti-Semitism sort of laughable. (I said “dominant”, I’m very well aware some people don’t like Jews, and they have been excluded from some things at different times.)
Now, since the, oh late 1800 (give or take) Jews in America have had the resources to buy land and buildings, and they could have set up separate communities to the very limit of the Constitutional law, and possibly influential enough to get an exception from the “individuals under law” concept, and go back to being a “Jewish community”. But they never have (with a few exceptions which prove the rule) and even now, at the height of their affluence and influence, this idea of a separate community which administers itself is not even considered.
Again, I don’t care what people do voluntarily, (although at some point our ideals require us to protect them from themselves) I care about what people(particularly, me) are forced to do. And if anybody can tell me about a way to set up a “Jewish community” which won’t end up looking just like Israel (at war with it’s neighbors, at war with itself) I’m all ears. And oh yes, it would be nice if somebody could tell me how you set up a “religious community” in which the elites don’t lose all sexual and ethical restraints, too. They can always seem to manage that even within the constraints of voluntary association.
I cannot picture myself as anything but the victim of such a “separate” community system. And I also think women ethnic…..well, all the same people who are victims of the Israeli system. And BTW, remember “Semites”? Well, there’s no law that gets to say that we will all agree on the definition of “Jew” The Palestinians, Arabs are “Semites” too, so why not put them in the community with the Jews. That would be lovely for them, although it might be that many Jews will welcome the idea of having a subservient, discriminated faction in their own community to legally push around. Or is Israel not an example of a “Jewish community”? (Please, no PEP crap on the difference between a “Jewish community” and a “Zionist community”
The powerful psychological and social factors which can inveigle some Jews into thinking they are a “separate community” are a pity, and in my opinion, used to take advantage of them. If you wish to indulge them by considering them realities, (see your comment, above) that’s your business. But nothing except their own mind, and possibly a fear of loss of ostensible status and security and fear of the other, keeps them from walking away (to any distance, near or far), and I can’t do anything about that.
But the idea that I’m going to be in a “community” which in reality is a separate system which owns me? Hell no! Bad enough being (to the extent I am, we are, and they think they have the right to kill me, draft) “owned” by the US. You know my opinion, great religion(good as any other), wonderful culture (haven’t been poisoned by Jewish food), lousy, lousy system to be ruled under. What legal argument do you use to counter “God told me to” when the person saying it is invested with authority which recognises “God’s” demands, and considered competent to receive them? And a court considers “God told me to” admissable evidence!
And as far as (on another subject, I guess) all that looking in the Talmud etc. for the key to Jewish-Israeli, whatever intransigence, well, hind-sight is always twenty-twenty vision.
“(That’s nice but not a definition of Jewishness.)”
Sorry, Phil should have consulted with you before offering any definitions of Jewishness. I mean, who would know better than you?
Sometimes one wonders if Jewishness could be defined recursively: Jewishness is the state of being intensely preoccupied with one’s Jewishness. This is a mental and personality trait that cuts across all religious and secular boundaries and definitions.
For instance, when I read Jeffrey Goldberg’s writings, the term “obsessive-compulsive ethnocentrism” always comes to mind. He clearly feels a deep instinctive need to mention Jewish issues — no, the “J” word itself — a certain number of times every day to feel balanced, on center.
Clearly Mooser is much more ethnocentric than your average moose (or American or European) — and there is a great deal of angst and nerves (and nerviness) associated with that ethnocentrism.
This is not necessarily a negative thing — self-reflection is often productive — but I wonder if Jews do their best work when they escape this infinitely recursive loop and interact with the larger world in creative ways. Think of Woody Allen’s latest films, for instance, which gloriously transcend ethnic and religious ghetto walls and which are universalist in their outlook. Think of all those Jewish Nobel Prize winners in physics. Their minds were on bigger issues than mere ethnocentrism, which, at its worst, can morph into sterile neurotic narcissism, spinning its wheels endlessly and going nowhere.
Jewishness is the state of being intensely preoccupied with one’s Jewishness.
how different is that than being intensely preoccupied with Jewishness?
Annie: how different is that than being intensely preoccupied with Jewishness?
If someone is intensely preoccupied with Jewishness but not actually Jewish in the first place then they are quite likely an anti-semite, unless they want to join the religion for some reason. For Sean’s rather intriguing recursive algorithm to work it would seem you have to be Jewish in the first place, or at least under the illusion that you are.
“Clearly Mooser is much more ethnocentric than your average moose (or American or European) — and there is a great deal of angst and nerves (and nerviness) associated with that ethnocentrism.”
Like you know anything about it! I haven’t got what to be nervous about? Look, first of all, there’s hunting season. And second, Sean they fall off, one at a time How the hell would you like to spend eternity over some Gentile’s fireplace with one antler, to boot.
Naturally I’m nervous. I never know what’s going to happen, and none of the possibilities seem very good.
Jewishness is the state of being intensely preoccupied with one’s Jewishness. . . . how different is that than being intensely preoccupied with Jewishness?
There’s an interplay between Jews and Gentiles who are preoccupied with the significance of Jewishness. This significance is very much a self-fulfilling prophecy that yields results which normally confirm the pre-existing beliefs of both the parties concerned. That’s also one of the truisms behind the maxim that “In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.”
i have friends who are very jewish and not preoccupied with it at all. so i don’t think the description can be used universally. there is also the possibility some people are just more compulsive than others and once they start obsessing on something or try to figure it out, they don’t stop. they burrow in like a termite until they succeed or expire.
personally, any curiosity i have about jewishness i can absorb thru reading others. i have no desire to figure out what makes someone jewish other than their own self identification.
zionism, that’s another story. lots of brainwashing.
Sean McBride- Regarding scientists, Einstein was obviously someone who thought a lot about his Jewishness.
Regarding art, specifically Woody Allen, au contraire, (in my opinion) Woody Allen’s latest films suck. His earlier films like Zelig, Broadway Danny Rose, Annie Hall all harp on his Jewishness and they were great. The other two that make my top 5 Woody Allen movies are Crimes and Misdemeanors and Stardust Memories. They also have substantial Jewish content.
Kvetch, kvetch, kvetch, Mooser. You lose them every winter, and there are only two sides to lose….unless you’re in a fight here and snap a branch off. You’re making a lot for the gentilly, Chantilly, and their fire pots.
“How the hell would you like to spend eternity over some Gentile’s fireplace with one antler, to boot.”
Not to mention spending the first year or two with them complaining about how tough you are everytime they pull a piece of you out of the freezer.
If someone is intensely preoccupied with Jewishness but not actually Jewish in the first place then they are quite likely an anti-semite, unless they want to join the religion for some reason.
Evangelicals and missionaries don’t fit neatly into those categories, but are none the less preoccupied with Israel and the Jews.
For Sean’s rather intriguing recursive algorithm to work it would seem you have to be Jewish in the first place, or at least under the illusion that you are.
Of course, personal beliefs and community social boundaries imposed extreme limitations on eligible spouses for many centuries. This stuff is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Cohanim believe that they can’t marry gentiles and that they are descended from a biblical character named Aaron. Genetic testing indicates that they’re actually descended from three distinct patriarchal lines. Whoever those ancestors were, they were already very distant relatives by the time the Jewish people finally came into existence. 50 percent of the Ashkenazi Levites appear to be descended from an ancient European patriarch. The ancient myths and legends weren’t necessarily true, but they still resulted in something like a breeding colony among the adherents. The Gentiles and the Jews were both responsible for the preoccupation and for erecting the social and physical barriers.
“…If someone is intensely preoccupied with Jewishness but not actually Jewish in the first place then they are quite likely an anti-semite, unless they want to join the religion for some reason..
Logically, this seems a bit peculiar. So that (white) professor at the college I went to who taught the course in Mexican history was ipso facto bigoted against Mexicans? That I recently bestirred myself to read a text on Indian history is evidence that I may be acquiring a bias against Indians?
‘If someone is intensely preoccupied with Jewishness but not actually Jewish in the first place then they are quite likely an anti-semite’ seems unreasonable. It essentially forbids anyone except Jews from actually taking a detailed interest in Jewish culture. If, for example, I bestirred myself to actually read the Talmud, would that be evidence that I was an anti-semite? How about a Jew who starts reading the Church fathers? Would that raise suspicions that he was bigoted towards Christians?
Yonah,
I like most of Woody Allen’s work, including the explicitly Jewish films, but consider the grace and finesse and humor with which he explored his Jewish background — no stridency or militancy — just love, with some gentle and good-natured self-criticism. And then he was able to expand his consciousness and make films about European culture that are superior to most films made by Europeans — again in a spirit of affectionate appreciation but with a clear, skeptical eye, with no false sentimentality.
Woody Allen is a much better good will ambassador for Jewish culture than Benjamin Netanyahu, in my opinion.
I have no objections to ethnocentrism per se — our respective ethnic identities provide us with much of the ground of our being. The trick is not to go crazy on ethnocentrism. Tap its energy but control and moderate it, push it in a positive direction, use it to build bridges rather than walls between people.
Einstein was an Enlightenment/humanist Jew of the highest order. He made Jewishness cool. Like Woody Allen, he was in tune with his roots but could easily move beyond those boundaries.
Sean McBride- Regarding scientists, Einstein was obviously someone who thought a lot about his Jewishness.
FYI, He attended Catholic schools and publicly claimed that he didn’t even know that he was a Jew, until he moved to Germany and found out thanks to the Gentiles:
–A Letter To Professor Dr. Hellpach, Minister Of State Written in response to an article by Professor Hellpach which appeared in the Vossische Zeitung in 1929. Published in Mein Weltbild, Amsterdam: Querido Verlag, 1934.
CW: Logically, this seems a bit peculiar…
Colin, what I wrote only makes sense (if indeed it makes sense at all) as a response to Annie’s question and is my observation of probability (“quite likely”) and not a statement of rigid cause and effect.
That said, taken on its own “intensely preoccupied with Jewishness” is a loose phrase that is open to widely differing interpretations. So I readily accept that in the case where it is taken as a deep interest in Jewish culture, religion or history then it has, de facto, nothing to do with anti-semitism. Nor, to address the point Hostage made, would that be the case if interpreted as the great Biblical interest in Israel and the Jews that many Christians have.
But in the context Sean McBride originally used the phrase I took it as meaning something rather different than the above, more akin to a mental prism through which the everyday world is refracted.
“Sometimes one wonders if Jewishness could be defined recursively”
Probably. I know I’ve said an awful lot of swear words over it.
libra, what interested me is sean’s definition of jewishness, is that the ‘obsession’ (and i don’t think that is universally an accurate description),while defining jewish..when applied to a non jew is assumed to be anti jewish.
also, because of the times we are living in it becomes natural one might examine the culture to understand why or how any cultural attributes might contribute to this situation in which another culture is literally being used as a human petri dish for ethnic control via displacement, imprisonment, torture, with an aim, some might reasonably argue, to replace them. so under these conditions when americans in particular are being used to fund this project, it does draw attention to the cultures involved in ways they might not normally even consider or think of.
anyone with a background in psychology would look at this situation and ask how the ethnicity or culture contributes to the conflict. it’s not antisemitic to do that and there’s no reason jews should be afforded to be obsessed by it any more than anyone else.
Annie,
I didn’t mean to reduce Jewishness merely to an intense preoccupation with one’s Jewishness — it is much more complex than that. I was being a bit fanciful.
But one does tend to encounter among Americans perhaps more ethnocentrism overall among Jews than among other ethnic groups. The core theme of Judaism is that Jews comprise a holy and chosen people who are on a mission from God to redeem, save and perfect the world. That’s quite a responsibility, one that can no doubt create a good deal of anxiety and worry. The term Messiah Complex comes to mind.
Earlier here I suggested sorting American ethnic groups by the number of ethnocentric articles published by their members in the op-ed pages of the New York Times, Washington Post and Wall Street Journal for the last decade or two. I still think that would be an illuminating exercise for understanding contemporary American culture and politics.
How is it possible not to notice the wild proliferation of Charles Krauthammers in American political discourse whose only topic is their ethnic angst and needs? The rest of the human race doesn’t exist for them. Obsessive-compulsive ethnocentrism nicely describes the psychological syndrome, I think. They simply can’t stop talking about their ethnic issues, problems, needs and enemies and they expect the rest of us to be bit players in their endless drama.
(The usual disclaimer, which by now should be unnecessary: most Jews are not Charles Krauthammers — but those who are are highly conspicuous in the mainstream media and American politics. Many of these people claim to speak for “the Jews” — all of them.)
Hostage,
Wow — that quote is revelatory. I now have a very different take on Einstein — he is perhaps as much “European” and “Catholic” as “Jewish” (in the context of cultural archetypes).
What an amazing set of quotes you have at your fingertips. You should build a website from your source materials.
There is a fascinating discussion about Jewish identity today in the Forward:
article; AUTHOR Allan Nadler TITLE Our Favorite Heretic: Misquoting, Misrepresenting, and Misusing Baruch Spinoza PUBLICATION Forward DATE August 13, 2012 URL link to forward.com
This quote from Spinoza seems controversial:
BEGIN QUOTE
There is nothing whatsoever that the Jews today can arrogate to themselves above other nations,” Spinoza wrote in the third chapter of his “Theological-Political Treatise.” “As to their continued existence for so many years when scattered and stateless, this is in no way surprising, since they have separated themselves from other nations to such a degree so as to incur the hatred of all, and this not only through external rites alien to the rites of other nations, but also through the mark of circumcision which they most religiously observe and… by itself might preserve their nation forever.
END QUOTE
one time as i was researching something on one of these threads (i think it was the thread about jesse’s essay, the boy who won the MLK award) i intercepted a link to some foundation whose name i cannot recall, and all they did was surveys about the jewish community. i’d never seen so many surveys. they must employ people just to do surveys on jews. and the surveys were about any and everything imaginable. i thought to myself, american jews must be the most examine people on the face of the planet, and it’s all being carried out by members of their own community! so yes, i am well aware there are jews obsessed with their own community and within that community there is the will and funds to do these endless studies and surveys and analysis. yet at the same time there are obviously many jews who have no interest in this anymore than any non obsessed person would have an interest in it, therefore it cannot be the definition of jewishness or even a defining quality. all it takes is a few powerful people to fund this sort of foundation, or tons of jewish studies departments all over the country and the scholarships to go along with them and viola..there becomes a ‘field’ of study and the cycle just continues.
Annie,
Other American ethnic groups, to the best of my knowledge, are not bogged down in endless recursive navel-gazing on their ethnic identity and “mission” (world historical mission at that!) at any level. That kind of activity arguably constitutes a unique cultural marker when defining differences among ethnic groups.
Certainly most Americans are not ethnic or religious nationalists who organize their politics around endless wars against the enemies of a foreign government. Without a doubt *that* activity constitutes a unique cultural marker and discriminator.
Definitions of navel-gazing:
1. complacent self-absorption
2. excessive introspection
3. useless or excessive self-contemplation
4. excessive interest in oneself
5. self-absorbed behavior, often to the point of being narcssistic
etc.
Google [define navel gazing]
Sorry- just noticed I skipped Bananas, with its comic references to Jewishness, not as adult as the other films, but top notch in its funniness.
Seanmcbride, while I would never argue physics with Einstein, (unless, of course, I was drunk on slivovitz) he himself admitted, many times, he was a political naif. He was a ‘scientist-celebrity’ for many reasons, and had petitions and appeals thrust in front of him constantly.
I think we can safely say about Einstein that he was a universalist, not an ethnic nationalist, and not an ethnocentric navel-gazer or narcissist. He was interested in uncovering the basic laws of nature and the universe. Cool guy. I really need to get around to reading the last, best biography on him.
Interesting: Allan Nadler left off the last sentence of that Spinoza quote (I just looked it up). Two translations of that sentence:
1. “That they have been preserved in great measure by Gentile hatred, experience demonstrates.”
2. “That they are preserved largely through the hatred of other nations is demonstrated by historical fact.”
“I think we can safely say about Einstein that he was a universalist, not an ethnic nationalist”
From what I’ve read and the little I remember a pretty cautious one (universalist) by the last quarter of his life. He was courted by every possible political faction, and when he was vulnerable, minipulated by the Zionists. Of course, they will still claim him. The Isaacson biography might be a good one to read.
You should build a website from your source materials.
LOL! I’m already on the MW automatic annual subscription plan. That’s how I compensate Phil and Adam for the storage and bandwidth I use here;-)
It’s us who should be compensating you Hostage. Hell, we should all be chipping in to keep you posting here. ;-)
Hostage,
Regarding retrieving documentary and archival materials through the MW interface: I do wish that it provided much more sophisticated search options — search by poster/commenter, date, etc. and sort results by date and other criteria.
A Wikipedia-style interface might provide the best way to organize materials on rich topics like Mideast politics.
Two worthwhile books on Einstein’s views on Israel and Zionism:
1. book; AUTHOR Ze’ev Rosenkranz TITLE Einstein Before Israel: Zionist Icon or Iconoclast? PUBLISHER Princeton University Press DATE 2011 AMAZON link to amazon.com
2. book; AUTHOR Fred Jerome TITLE Einstein on Israel and Zionism: His Provocative Ideas About the Middle East PUBLISHER St. Martin’s Press DATE 2009 AMAZON link to amazon.com
And a customer review of the Jerome book:
BEGIN QUOTE
However, Einstein never favored the existence of Israel as a political state. In fact, his writings attest that he firmly and consistently throughout his life opposed political Zionism. But wasn’t that what the movement begun by Herzl was all about? One gets the impression that at the beginning Einstein, it could almost be said, deceived himself about the actual Zionist goals; but as time wore on, the scales fell from his eyes. He came to see that Weizmann and the rest of the Zionists represented a Jewish chauvinism whose realization would render impossible any just rapprochement with the Arab inhabitants of Palestine — and which in the end would fail. To Weizmann, 1929: “If we are not able to find a way to honest cooperation and honest pacts with the Arabs, then we have learned nothing in our two thousand years of suffering, and deserve the fate which will befall us” (p. 78). In this sense, Einstein was anti-Zionist — much to the chagrin of Weizmann and the mainstream Zionist movement.
END QUOTE
“It’s us who should be compensating you Hostage. Hell, we should all be chipping in to keep you posting here. ;-)”
Asbolutely! And, I hope AviG finds his way back, and past what I’m convinced was a misunderstanding.
@ seanmcbride
Yes, Spinoza, and down through the ages, many famous rabbis have said just that, essentially. Hannah Arendt says of this whole line of thinking, in The Origins of Totali-tarianism, p. 7 (1973 ed.), that “. . . eternal anti-Semitism would imply an eternal guarantee of Jewish [corporate] existence. This superstition is a secularized travesty of the idea of eternity inherent in a faith in chosenness.”
@ Mooser
Yep, that’s right about Einstein. In a late interview he was asked about his occasional comments regarding his Jewishness, considering that for most of his life he had never said anything public about his Jewishness. He said, a snail comes with his homey shell, which changes over the snail’s life, but if one pulled off the snail’s shell, that one would see the snail was still a snail. He did not elaborate further.
Citizen,
You wrote:
“Yes, Spinoza, and down through the ages, many famous rabbis have said just that, essentially. Hannah Arendt says of this whole line of thinking, in The Origins of Totali-tarianism, p. 7 (1973 ed.), that “. . . eternal anti-Semitism would imply an eternal guarantee of Jewish [corporate] existence. This superstition is a secularized travesty of the idea of eternity inherent in a faith in chosenness.””
This is a highly controversial point of view, of course, but I am seriously entertaining the theory that Judaism (and Zionism) is grounded in the assumption that “the Jews” — “the chosen people” — are locked by destiny in a permanent state of apocalyptic conflict with “the nations” — that is, until Moshiach comes along to crush and permanently subdue “the nations.” People who subscribe to these cult beliefs require an endless supply of antisemites to stay in business and to maintain their tribal cohesion and coherence.
Would it be fair to describe such a belief system as irrational? Crazy? In dire need of self-deconstruction? Can people who hold such bizarre beliefs be entrusted with WMDs?
Spinoza perhaps had this issue figured out a few centuries ago. The Enlightenment Jewish tradition has made some important efforts to pursue and develop Spinoza’s insights, but humanist Jews seem to constitute an ever-dwindling minority in the world.
“You lose them every winter, and there are only two sides to lose”
Okay, big shot, you walk around for a month with an aching neck before the second one goes. And after that, would you like it when the other guys come by, pinch you on the butt, and say “Hello Moosette let’s rut”?
It’s not easy being Moosish. Don’t believe all that stuff in Mary Burgess, she doesn’t know the half of it.
“which gloriously transcend ethnic and religious ghetto walls”
Which ghetto of New York did Woody Allen grow up in? I forget. Was it Brooklyn, the Bronx, or Manhattan?
“There’s an interplay between Jews and Gentiles who are preoccupied with the significance of Jewishness. This significance is very much a self-fulfilling prophecy that yields results which normally confirm the pre-existing beliefs of both the parties concerned. That’s also one of the truisms behind the maxim that “In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.”
Okay. go ahead and delete all my comments on this thread. (except the jokes, of course) Hostage just said it better in three sentences. And the first two sentences alone would have covered it. Thanks, Hostage. Come to think of it, those sentences cover all my back-and-forth with Colin, Klaus, and Citizen, too.
Now, why couldn’t I have put it so succinctly, so consisely? Please, do me a favor, nobody answer that question.
In a late interview he was asked about his occasional comments regarding his Jewishness, considering that for most of his life he had never said anything public about his Jewishness. He said, a snail comes with his homey shell, which changes over the snail’s life, but if one pulled off the snail’s shell, that one would see the snail was still a snail. He did not elaborate further.
It’s an analogy he had used many times. Here is an example. It’s an article which tried to explain why Nazis and others disliked or hated secular Jews:
WHY DO THEY HATE THE JEWS?
Albert Einstein
Collier’s Magazine, November 26, 1938.
…snip …
JUST WHAT IS A JEW?
The formation of groups has an invigorating effect in all spheres of human striving, perhaps mostly due to the struggle between the convictions and aims represented by the different groups. The Jews, too, form such a group with a definite character of its own, and anti-Semitism is nothing but the antagonistic attitude produced in the non-Jews by the Jewish group. This is a normal social reaction. But for the political abuse resulting from it, it might never have been designated by a special name.
What are the characteristics of the Jewish group? What, in the first place, is a Jew? There are no quick answers to this question. The most obvious answer would be the following: A Jew is a person professing the Jewish faith. The superficial character of this answer is easily recognized by means of a simple parallel. Let us ask the question: What is a snail? An answer similar in kind to the one given above might be: A snail is an animal inhabiting a snail shell. This answer is not altogether incorrect; nor, to be sure, is it exhaustive; for the snail shell happens to be but one of the material products of the snail. Similarly, the Jewish faith is but one of the characteristic products of the Jewish community. It is, furthermore, known that a snail can shed its shell without thereby ceasing to be a snail. The Jew who abandons his faith (in the formal sense of the word) is in a similar position. He remains a Jew.
Difficulties of this kind appear whenever one seeks to explain the essential character of a group. The bond that has united the Jews for thousands of years and that unites them today is, above all, the democratic ideal of social justice, coupled with the ideal of mutual aid and tolerance among all men. Even the most ancient religious scriptures of the Jews are steeped in these social ideals, which have powerfully affected Christianity and Mohammedanism and have had a benign influence upon the social structure of a great part of mankind. The introduction of a weekly day of rest should be remembered here—a profound blessing to all mankind. Personalities such as Moses, Spinoza, and Karl Marx, dissimilar as they may be, all lived and sacrificed themselves for the ideal of social justice;
The second characteristic trait of Jewish tradition is the high regard in which it holds every form of intellectual aspiration and spiritual effort. I am convinced that this great respect for intellectual striving is solely responsible for the contributions that the Jews have made toward the progress of knowledge, in the broadest sense of the term. In view of their relatively small number and the considerable external obstacles constantly placed in their way on all sides, the extent of those contributions deserves the admiration of all sincere men. I am convinced that this is not due to any special wealth of endowment, but to the fact that the esteem in which intellectual accomplishment is held among the Jews creates an atmosphere particularly favorable to the development of any talents that may exist. At the same time a strong critical spirit prevents blind obeisance to any mortal authority.
I have confined myself here to these two traditional traits, which seem to me the most basic. These standards and ideals find expression in small things as in large. They are transmitted from parents to children; they color conversation and judgment among friends; they fill the religious scriptures; and they give to the community life of the group its characteristic stamp. It is in these distinctive ideals that I see the essence of Jewish nature. That these ideals are but imperfectly realized in the group—in its actual everyday life—is only natural. However, if one seeks to give brief expression to the essential character of a group, the approach must always be by the way of the ideal. …snip …
” but humanist Jews seem to constitute an ever-dwindling minority in the world.”
So, who’s counting? I have a funny feeling it’s the non-humanist (just to use the same terms) Jews. Course, if you want to believe them, that’s your business.
And the first two sentences alone would have covered it.
The third sentence was obviously meant to imply a fourth one, “In order to understand Jewishness, one must first understand Jewishness.” (or the attainment of enlightenment;-)
“It is, furthermore, known that a snail can shed its shell without thereby ceasing to be a snail.”
I’m not sure, but I think he means “hermit crab” instead of snail. I don’t think a mollusc can be taken out of its shell and live. And don’t mollusc shells grow with the animal, instead of being shed and replaced like crustaceans? Oy Gevalt I must be nuts, questioning Einstein! But I ask you this: Did Einstein have Wikipedia?
“So that (white) professor at the college I went to who taught the course in Mexican history was ipso facto bigoted against Mexicans?”
Okay, yes, he might be (bigoted against Mexicans) or he might not be (I would hope not) But if he is working within the academic community and process hopefully, if his methodology and conclusions are influenced by bigotry (against whoever, and even if he himself is not aware of it) it will be peer-reviewed, peer-exposed, and peer-countered. His actions are also constrained, hopefully, if he wants to keep his job. If he sets out to harm Mexicans, people will notice.
@ Mooser
Yeah, I agree with Mooser here, Hostage is always educating all of us, hence he is very valuable on this site, and Avi G’s comments are always insightful.
” but humanist Jews seem to constitute an ever-dwindling minority in the world.”
Never the mind the humanists, it’s the humorists I’m worried about. That’s another tragic displacement that one day Zionism will be held to account for.
“Woody Allen is a much better good will ambassador for Jewish culture than Benjamin Netanyahu, in my opinion.”
Mr. Allen’s, other… well, indiscretions not withstanding? Oh, call me an old marital-stick-in-the-mud if you will, but I just can’t think of the ability to transcend the incest taboo as a good advertisement. Of course, on the other hand, Mr. Allen wasn’t actually married to Mia Farrow, was he? It was more like palimony, with enough money to make up the difference, wasn’t it?
One thing I think would help is if the posts were organized so that a summary page showing which was a response to what was visually obvious.
A board I went to a long time ago had everything organized so that the overall view showed you each thread with the name of the poster and the first few words — then with the various responses and responses to responses shown below successively indented.
I really think a similar system here would encourage actual dialogue — as opposed to everyone just hurling their thunderbolts into the blue. As it is, to see who has responded to which of my posts, I have to go to my profile, look up my comments, and see which one has responses that I don’t recall it having before.
…not the ideal system for encouraging an actual exchange of views.
““In order to understand Jewishness, one must first understand Jewishness.”
Yes, it’s like the sound of one hand thwapping.
@ Mooser, I think Einstein was confusing snails with slugs, which do live without shells; seems snails shell and body cannot be separated without quickly reducing its life-span. Mmmmmm…..
Phil, do you what the problem (yes problem) is with our American Pentagon ?
They are being driven by both fear and greed, they pretend it’s by greed to disimulate the fact that it is more of fear.
It’s good for the John Wayne ego, but bad for America.
They should just get over it and set the ship straight.
John Wayne’s Hondo character said the Apaches didn’t have a word for “lie” or “to lie.” Actually they used phrases or analogies. When the Apache asked Hondo to lie, he said, “Tell him this…” Which both he and Hondo knew was a lie. Hondo refused. The Apache said Hondo was a good man–even though he knew Hondo would reveal his near whereabouts to the US cavalry.
After listening to Marc Zell i can not believe that Palestinians aren’t more appreciative of the Israelis, where would they be without them.
Thanks Marc for helping me see things more clearly through jewish eyes.
I watched the video several times …
… and the more I watch it, the less I comprehend, both Zell and Phil talking about their respective Jewish perspectives.
- Zell must feel a compulsive urge to keep his Jewish identity which was threatened in the US. He was afraid “to get lost” in the US and *fled* to Israel. Everthing he says about Jewish and Israeli achievements are pure psychological rationalizations.
- And why did Phil reverse his assimilation and reaffirmed his Jewishness?
Because the neocons harmed “the Jewish brand”? Can’t you be critical of
the neocons as an assimilated Jew?
I just can’t get over how deep your understanding is, Klaus. It’s scary. And yeah, you have a valid criticism of Phil. The guy just won’t stand still and be the Jew he’s supposed to be. I’m sure many share your frustration.
Mooser says: “I just can’t get over how deep your understanding is, Klaus. It’s scary. And yeah, you have a valid criticism of Phil. The guy just won’t stand still and be the Jew he’s supposed to be. I’m sure many share your frustration.”
This would be a much better forum if you went away. You contribute nothing of any apparent value while verbally abusing whomever you please. If you have a legitimate comment to make about Klaus’ post, why don’t you make it? If you don’t, why don’t you keep quiet?
Colin, I don’t know what good you think addressing me will do you. You lost all my sympathy with your sophisticated and self-admiring torture endorsement, and that colonialist bit about the Indians in Washington stealing all our salmon. And that crap about guns, oh jeez. And your prolixity! (You seem to be getting that under control.)
So why don’t you address a personal note to the moderators, demanding they comply with your demands? No better still, start a petition, I’m sure giladg, Hophmi, et al will be eager to sign, each several times. Hey, Yonah can sign twice!
What’s wrong, Colin, never met an uppity Jew before? I may remind you that any post by me has my name prominently displayed at the top, and there is a small “scroll” button somewhere on your keyboard. After all, your posts annoy the hell out of me, sometimes, and if they do, I simply don’t read them. Do me the same favor, if you can.
“If you have a legitimate comment to make about Klaus’ post”
And I would appreciate it if you would keep the doubts about my parentage out of this. What can I say, the milkman was exceptionally handsome…. and my Mom (aloha ha-sholom,[she died in Hawaii]) was, well, impulsive.
‘Colin, I don’t know what good you think addressing me will do you. You lost all my sympathy…’
Since I have no respect for you, I could hardly desire your sympathy.
…So why don’t you address a personal note to the moderators, demanding they comply with your demands?’
I haven’t made any demands — and in any case, the moderators aren’t responsible for your deficiencies. I DID attempt to offer a resolution to this — but it was blocked.
‘No better still, start a petition, I’m sure giladg, Hophmi, et al will be eager to sign, each several times. Hey, Yonah can sign twice!
Now that’s interesting. They might — or they might reflect that actually, letting you post is in their interest.
What’s wrong, Colin, never met an uppity Jew before?
You flatter yourself. You’re merely a severely disturbed individual who has discovered that the internet allows him to act out with impunity.
” You’re merely a severely disturbed individual who has discovered that the internet allows him to act out with impunity.”
Okay, you caught me. Send me the bill for the windows, and I’ll replace the lawn jockey I broke. I’m too afraid you will expose my record as a “severely disturbed” individual. After all, Washington’s criminal records are on line. A little taste of the enhanced interrogation water is probably what I need. Not that I think the moderators will need any more proof than your announcing that I am, indeed a “severely disturbed individual”. After all, they know the difference between a certified medical diagnosis and an attempted insult.
And I’m sorry about blocking your post, that was not the straight bat, by any means.
“I haven’t made any demands — and in any case, the moderators aren’t responsible for your deficiencies. I DID attempt to offer a resolution to this — but it was blocked.”
Ah, I don’t see any contradiction between sentence one and sentence two. None at all.
But I’m not talking a comment, Colin. You should get in touch with the moderators personally present them with a prime selections from my comments, complete with ellisions, (don’t bring any of your’s, that’ll save time) tell them about your “background”, and point out to them that I am a Hasbarist in disguise.
And that I’m a “severely disturbed individual” unlike somebody who has an “unqualified loathing” for Israel.
“why don’t you keep quiet?”
Okay, now I’m ashamed. You are a nice guy! That is one heck of a compliment! So you can actually hear a voice? I’m flattered, and you n’ me is buds from now on! Like Damien and Pythagoras, a couple of ancient Geeks! My best wishes to you, and don’t take any wooden rhetoric.
Sounds like Urkel, if he was suffering from Portnoy’s complaint, right? I know, you were just about to say that. Bubele!
“…unlike somebody who has an “unqualified loathing” for Israel.”
Why shouldn’t I have an unqualified loathing for Israel? What should qualify it?
“What should qualify it?”
Oh, I don’t know, maybe a bit of human compassion, and the knowledge that in many ways, many Israelis and Jews are victims of Zionism (although not exactly in the same way or to the same extent as Palestinians).
And you know, Colin, if a guy wanted to, he could even come to the conclusion that you have an “unqualified loathing” for Israel which doesn’t seem to apply to anything else. Everything else is “relative” but your loathing for Israel is “unqualified”. Oh well, as I’ve long been saying, that’s what it’s gonna take, so maybe I shouldn’t complain. I’ve said for a long time there’s no reason why Israel should be singled out for better treatment than any other issue in US politics.
So please, Colin, when your “unqualified loathing” for Israel reaches its logical conclusion,the conclusion that the loss of your own life is trivial in comparison to the results you can achieve in the losing of it, well, you know who to get in touch with (I certainly don’t). So you figger that’ll be how many days from now? Certainly six more months of reading Mondoweiss should do it.
But if you’ll excuse the question, why are you asking the opinion of a “severely disturbed individual”?
Of course, Colin, if you agree with Yonah that the Jews are a “collective”, I withdraw all my objections. A collective is a collective and there’s no way around that!
name prominently displayed at the top…
belly laugh
“name prominently displayed at the top…
belly laugh”
Phil, I’ve never, ever claimed to have your commitment, or your courage, and you can’t shame me into it. I stand on the front porch, calling, Shame, come back, Shame! It’s when I’m not ashamed I get worried.
I knew this would be the consequence of losing Witty. Now we’re all at each other’s throat. And it’s not nearly as much fun. Whatever his other failings may have been, Richard really was a superb straight man.
“Richard really was a superb straight man.”
I agree. His obsession with Phil was strictly the result of intellectual differences. In spite of what happened that summer at Cape Cod.
“Of course, Colin, if you agree with Yonah that the Jews are a “collective”, I withdraw all my objections. A collective is a collective and there’s no way around that!”
The only one who ever decided my remarks applied to all Jews was you.
“Oh, I don’t know, maybe a bit of human compassion…”
Mooser sets off in furious pursuit, realizes that’s his own tail he’s biting, gets confused, and tries to change the subject.
Of course you can. But Phil’s point is that because he saw them as a mostly Jewish phenomenom, and as they acted as a Jewish group, as he percevied it, and then went on to do horrible things, that re-awakened his Jewish feeling.
Of course, my guess is that more was at stake than that.
Phil’s Jewishness was probably only dormant throughout his life. Very few Jews completely sever it(what for?).
Also, as you get older you tend to get more ethnocentric etc. It’s a widespread fact of life.
Yes, pretty much.
“Also, as you get older you tend to get more ethnocentric etc. It’s a widespread fact of life.”
This, is stunning. Why, that’s exactly what is happening to Phil, as even a cursory glance at his postings will show. Gosh, Klaus, it’s like you know him better than you know yourself!!!
“…Gosh, Klaus, it’s like you know him better than you know yourself!!!”
It was Krauss that posted that, not Klaus. You inadvertently flamed the wrong guy — again.
Mooser, sorry to break it to you, but I think you meant Krauss. You did it again. Slooooow down and take a breather my friend.
“Mooser, sorry to break it to you, but I think you meant Krauss.”
Klaus, Krauss, what’s the difference? You’re gonna make a fuss over two letters? That, my friend, is pure pilpul!
Ruf mich k’nak-nissel!
Krauss, there you are. You’re making sense again. Now don’t blow it and say Israel is simply integrating into the backwards Arab region. Like who would say that.
“Also, as you get older you tend to get more ethnocentric etc. It’s a widespread fact of life”
I don’t think so. The older I get the less I care about ethnic. Yours or mine. And the less patience I have with people obsessed with themselves and their identities. Maybe also my amateur study of history makes me regard everyone as a blip in the universe…our own century, life, people, all whatever it is right now and then gone tomorrow into the past.
@ American,
I agree. As I age I find I don’t have time for that often petty bullshit.
An overflowing pipe of Hasbara droppings.
It would be nice if the illegal settler was proud of Israel, Jews and Jewishness IN Israel instead of in Palestine.
Illegal settler Marc Zell’s stance on Obama makes me want Obama even more. Even though Obama and team have not demonstrated any real reasons that Zionist should be concerned. All Obama and team have done is said that the settlements are not acceptable and then they just roll over and go back to sleep.
Dennis Ross, Zell must know something we do not about Obama and team that they clearly fear in a second administration.
Zell’s “We need to be separate” feeds the elitist label. But the absurd thing is that everything Israel and the I lobby continues to delegitimize Israel based on international boundaries. They keep pushing the issue into a one state solution. ONE PERSON/ONE VOTE. Everything Zell and team are against.
The fact that they seem to be afraid of Obama this next term makes me want to work for him even more
“The fact that they seem to be afraid of Obama this next term makes me want to work for him even more”
Besides, could Romney aim a drone with Obama’s laser-like accuracy?
Sure Romney could
“Sure Romney could”
I don’t know, I don’t have much regard for Romney’s intelligence, but he’s got to be smarter than that. He’ll let the military or CIA or whatever do the targeting and the launching. I don’t think he’s stupid enough to hold the bag, like Obama. But who knows, maybe he will personally pick the targets every Tuesday. A guy has got to have some fun at work.
Obama is supposed to be so goddam smart, but he seems to have no inkling about how Presidents can be left holding the bag for the military’s adventurism. Oh well, if he thinks he’s smart enough to make the Bush Doctrine work, he’s welcome to it. I just thought a smart Democrat would not want to be left holding the bag for a former Republican President.
Addressing ColinWright’s comment on the relative power of the Jewish and Christian wings of the Israel lobby: I think he is seriously misreading the power dynamics here.
The Jewish neoconservative and neoliberal factions of the Israel lobby are much more influential, more wealthy, more intelligent, better educated and better organized than the Christian Zionist faction of the lobby, which includes few (if any) billionaires or Ivy League Ph.D.’s. Christian Zionists are being led around by the nose by neoconservatives like William Kristol and Elliott Abrams, who write all their scripts and feed them all their lines. Without the guiding and enabling hand of Jewish Zionists at the pinnacle of the American power structure (in the media, Wall Street, policy centers, academe, etc.), Christian Zionists would be a negligible factor in American politics.
Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban, by themselves (not to mention a few dozen other billionaires in their league), are worth more than hundreds or thousands of Michele Bachmanns and Mike Huckabees, who are, indeed, well-programmed bots and ideological foot soldiers for Likud and the Israeli government.
When one reads the books of leading Christian Zionists like John Hagee and Mike Evans, one often finds Mossad directors lurking in the background, pulling their strings and interpreting global politics for them. Christian Zionists are like toddlers — naive and highly suggestible.
“Without the guiding and enabling hand of Jewish Zionists at the pinnacle of the American power structure (in the media, Wall Street, policy centers, academe, etc.), Christian Zionists would be a negligible factor in American politics.”
Exactly and the warmongering, torture, the attacks on civil liberties, environmentalists, unions, science and the arts, the misogyny and homophobia (and pinkwashing) and all that comes with empowering Christian Zionists will eventually be laid at their feet.
To seanmcbride: “Addressing ColinWright’s comment on the relative power of the Jewish and Christian wings of the Israel lobby: I think he is seriously misreading the power dynamics here.”
Now I know I have responded to this twice — and neither reply has appeared.
I don’t mind all that much — but I want to avoid sean thinking I’m simply ignoring him, and it seems to me the board has some sort of chronic problem that should be addressed.
ColinWright,
How do you answer the argument that the Jewish faction of the Israel lobby (managed by the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations) is vastly superior to the Christian Zionist faction in terms of wealth, power, intelligence, education, social networking, organization, etc.? Christian Zionists are infants and toddlers who are easily led up the garden path — incapable of critical or strategic thinking of any kind and eminently suggestible and manipulable by simple propaganda slogans and mantras (those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed, etc.).
Compare Marc Zell to John Hagee or William Kristol to Sarah Palin. Barely the same species. Christian Zionists without exception are simpletons — prime targets for being fleeced. (Yes, sometimes Ivy League degrees *do* matter.)
Compare Marc Zell to John Hagee or William Kristol to Sarah Palin. Barely the same species.
Good grief, what a bigoted statement! You really do need to get over your philo-Semitism, Sean. And learn the difference between education and intelligence. Zell is not particularly intelligent, he’s simply more educated than the Hagee and Palin, and just as bigoted, or more so, to hear him talk. He spouts the same unthinking hasbara as others, including reciting disproved Joan Peters tripe. Certainly your “barely the same species” remark is way over the top, and ignorantly prejudiced in itself.
“…Zell is not particularly intelligent, he’s simply more educated than the Hagee and Palin, and just as bigoted, or more so, to hear him talk. He spouts the same unthinking hasbara as others, including reciting disproved Joan Peters tripe. Certainly your “barely the same species” remark is way over the top, and ignorantly prejudiced in itself…”
Well, at least the remark is hardly novel. Progressive bigotry is usually a matter of just selecting targets it’s permissible to vilify.
One of the things that turned me off of Jared Diamond’s ‘Gun, Germs, and Steel,’ was that in the introduction, he calmly dismisses any question of genetic difference being advanced to explain variation between cultures. It’s simply morally admissible to consider such an explanation.
A few pages later, he’s cheerfully arguing that New Guinea hunter gatherers must be genetically more intelligent than White people.
Apparently he never noticed the inconsistency.
There’s a real hierarchy. Muslims are certainly a completely legitimate target in certain circles. Among others, it is entirely permissible to vilify Whites in general and evangelicals in particular. Also, rural conservatives, reactionaries, gun owners, church goers, etc. Remember Obama’s remark about poor benighted gun owners and things? Both for him and his audience (he was speaking in San Francisco), it went without saying that the manners, mores, and beliefs of this group were legitimate objects for open contempt.
A surprising number of people think it’s entirely okay to ridicule Asians. Hispanics too, may be criticized — of course, they’re so little, brown, non-threatening, and submissive that few are inclined to do so. Your typical affluent progressive is overjoyed to discover she likes Maria the Guatemalan cleaning woman. OF COURSE she likes Maria. Maria is small, would never steal a thing no matter what, works diligently all the time, and worships her employer as a White goddess.
Jews, some may feel they can attack — but only after checking on their audience. Negative comments about Blacks are of course right out if the discourse is remotely public.
…and in fact, if anyone disagrees, just consider the reaction if I made remarks critical of each of these groups right here. The ferocity of the response would scale up just about in the order I have suggested. I probably could get away with a carefully worded post attacking Muslim ‘culture’ (as if this isn’t largely equivalent to attacking Muslims themselves). Ditto for Christian evangelicals (in fact, I wouldn’t even need to carefully word it here). Some would be outraged at a good Chinese joke. Others would privately find it extremely funny.
And so on. Bigotry is always with us. It’s just a question of whom we may legitimately subject to it.
tree,
The “species” remark was over the top, but I stand by my original claim: the Jewish component of the Israel lobby possesses vastly more sophisticated and powerful resources — financial, intellectual, organizational, etc. — than the Christian Zionist component of the Israel lobby. Christian Zionists may be perhaps the most egregious simpletons ever to arise as a major force in American politics. Dumb as rocks. Gullible. Easily pushed hither and thither by their largely neoconservative “advisers” and string pullers, many of them with advanced Ivy League degrees and supported by a richly interconnected network of dozens of billionaires at the highest levels of Wall Street and the mainstream media. Christian Zionists do not have a clue about how they are being played. They are kept in a state of deep hypnosis by repeating a few stock propaganda phrases over and over again.
The dozens of policy centers and think tanks which churn out endless reams of pro-Likud propaganda have not been created, financed and staffed by Christian Zionists, who can barely keep a few simple AEI or FPI talking points straight.
Another take on this topic: how many op-ed pieces by Christian Zionists have been published in the New York Times, Washington Post and Wall Street Journal during the last decade compared to op-ed pieces by Jewish neoconservatives and neoliberals? Is the ratio 1 to 10? 1 to 100? This is one of several metrics one could use to measure the relative power and influence of the two groups.
tree: Zell is not particularly intelligent, he’s simply more educated than the Hagee and Palin, and just as bigoted, or more so, to hear him talk.
But Zell is bigoted in eight languages which however you look at it is pretty impressive. Well perhaps only seven languages, for all I know when he speaks in Hebrew he might be all sweetness and light.
tree: Certainly your “barely the same species” remark is way over the top, and ignorantly prejudiced in itself.
You must make allowances for Sean’s education. I’m fairly sure he’s an Ivy League man himself and a minor in intellectual snobbery is pretty much par for any course. That said, if you’re really smart you manage to hide it. Certainly that was the genius of Dubya – a Yale man – and it took him all the way to the White House.
But in my view (ignoring the hyperbole with which he expressed it) Sean’s argument on the relative importance and responsibility of Jewish Zionists versus Christian Zionists is convincing.
Sean, you can make your point, which I agree with, about the relative influence and power of the pro-Israel Lobby factions and the insignificance of the Christian Zionists in comparison without resorting to bigotry and hyper-stereotyping, which diminish your argument.
Easily pushed hither and thither by their largely neoconservative “advisers” and string pullers, many of them with advanced Ivy League degrees and supported by a richly interconnected network of dozens of billionaires at the highest levels of Wall Street and the mainstream media. Christian Zionists do not have a clue about how they are being played. They are kept in a state of deep hypnosis by repeating a few stock propaganda phrases over and over again.
What you fail to understand is that there are a large number of Jewish Zionists who fit that description that you have just given for Christian Zionists. A lot of Jews are being played, and having their prejudices and ignorance preyed upon in just the same way as Christian Zionists. And Jewish Zionists aren’t acting any more intelligently as a group than Christian Zionists.
… pro-Likud propaganda…
“Labor Zionism” is, at its base, no different than “Likud Zionism”, albeit with a false facade similar to Bush’s “compassionate conservatism”. I think your own bias is getting in the way of seeing this, and realizing that Jews can be just as “dumb” and “gullible” in regards to Zionism as Christians can be.
tree,
Let me reframe my assertion: the highest levels of the Jewish component of the Israel lobby are much better educated, more wealthy, better organized and more powerful within America’s most influential institutions than the highest levels of the Christian Zionist wing of the Israel lobby.
Yes, William Kristol, Robert Kagan, Elliott Abrams, Daniel Pipes, etc. have many more tools at their disposal than Sarah Palin, Mike Huckabee, Michele Bachmann and John Hagee.
If you think this is a “bigoted” statement, rather than an assertion of plain fact, so be it. We have different takes on how American politics works, apparently. In my opinion, Ivy League social, political and financial networks are major forces to be reckoned with.
How many Christian Zionists own mainstream media properties or are Wall Street leaders? How many are billionaires? How many are heads of elite universities? How many are thought leaders at the most influential policy centers? For the most part, Christian Zionists read the scripts (usually ineptly) that have been handed to them by well-educated neoconservatives.
Yes, William Kristol, Robert Kagan, Elliott Abrams, Daniel Pipes, etc. have many more tools at their disposal than Sarah Palin, Mike Huckabee, Michele Bachmann and John Hagee.
If you think this is a “bigoted” statement, rather than an assertion of plain fact, so be it.
I agree with your assertion of greater power and greater access to levers of power on the part of neoconservatives. But, collectively, the first group you named really doesn’t have some vastly higher intelligence that accounts for their greater access to those tools. And that is where your bigotry, or intellectual snobbery, or whatever it is, comes in to your statements, and that is what I was objecting to. You seem to want to chalk it all up to some imagined ethnically based superior intelligence, which is laughable, considering some of the inanities that come from the mouths of neoconservatives.
For the most part, Christian Zionists read the scripts (usually ineptly) that have been handed to them by well-educated neoconservatives.
And the same can be said for a majority of Jewish Zionists, including in some cases “well-educated neoconservatives”. That’s my point.
tree,
Again, it is not “intellectual snobbery” that leads me to state that Jewish neoconservatives overall greatly outperform Christian Zionists in intellectual pursuits — it’s a plain statement of fact.
Christian Zionists tend to be intellectually lazy and incurious about the world, and few of them are motivated to win advanced degrees at elite universities. In fact, they strongly tend to hold that kind of activity in contempt. Since few of them have developed skills in independent and critical thinking, they are easy to manipulate and exploit.
To a considerable degree in the contemporary era, intellectual excellence is the key to winning financial, cultural and political power. Christians Zionists are approaching this competition with major handicaps. They believe that a simplistic reading of the Bible provides them with the answers to all complex questions.
tree,
Please name some Christian Zionists who:
1. are billionaires
2. are owners of mainstream media companies
3. are creators of leading Internet companies
4. are Wall Street leaders
5. have earned advanced degrees from or who are professors at elite universities
6. have won Nobel prizes
Do you really expect the world at large to treat people like Sarah Palin, John Hagee and Michele Bachmann with respect? When, because they are hostile to intellectual inquiry and excellence on emotional and fundamentalist theological grounds, they utter total nonsense on a regular basis?
What Christian Zionist is capable of spending $100 million of his or personal fortune on a single presidential election (as billionaire Sheldon Adelson has promised to do in the current election)? What Christian Zionist has established an influential think tank like the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution (funded by billionaire Haim Saban)?
Christian Zionists are not remotely in this league.
Sigh… Sean, try reading my comment for what I actually say and not what you assume I am saying. I am objecting to your bias. I’m not disagreeing with your point about the power of the pro Israel Lobby, or the relative insignificance of Christian Zionists as a factor in that power.
When, because they are hostile to intellectual inquiry and excellence on emotional and fundamentalist theological grounds, they utter total nonsense on a regular basis?
They aren’t the only ones that do so. You seem to think that being a billionaire or winning a Nobel Prize or going to an Ivy League school guarantees that one isn’t intellectually, emotionally or morally full of sh*t. Its a nice comforting thought, but there’s nothing inherently correct about that viewpoint of yours. This is what I am saying.
To a considerable degree in the contemporary era, intellectual excellence is the key to winning financial, cultural and political power.
Actually, no. That is your bias. Sheldon Adelson is not an example of “intellectual excellence”. Most billionaires aren’t. (And that includes John Hagee.) Most politicians aren’t examples of “intellectual excellence” either, nor are most American cultural icons. And as for neocons, please, Douglas Feith, “the dumbest f*cking guy on the planet”.
You think that the US operates as an intellectual meritocracy but the sorry state of our politics and media prove that it does not. Going along to get along is more the fashion of the day in power circles. Mediocrity is everywhere and “intellectual excellence” doesn’t guarantee any step up the ladder of fame, power or fortune. Going to an “elite university’ may help the climb, but it doesn’t guarantee that the climber isn’t just as “dumb as a rock” as the next guy. Nor does it guarantee developing skills in “independent and critical thinking”or necessarily make one a harder target to manipulate and exploit.
You’d think this would be obvious to anyone with critical thinking skills.
tree,
If you want characterize my low esteem for the intelligence of Christian Zionists as “bigotry,” be my guest — I will own up to being “bigoted.” I think nearly all of them are dumb as rocks.
More on the subject of the relative power of the Jewish and Christian Zionist wings of the Israel lobby: the Charlie Rose TV show is an excellent window into this topic. Most of Rose’s guests are members of “the club” — the power elite, much of it centered in Manhattan, Hollywood and Silicon Valley, which rules America and much of the world — including billionaire financiers and entrepreneurs, cultural leaders, etc. Few Christian Zionists ever make an appearance on the show — not only are they not leaders of “the club,” they are not even members in good standing.
Again, I am not trying to communicate snobbery in making this observation — it is a simple fact of life. Christian Zionists tend not to be high achievers in the arts, sciences and business — quite the opposite, in fact. They are anti-achievers in those domains and hate the values and culture which produce that kind of achievement.
Christian Zionists like Michele Bachmann and Mike Huckabee are Mossad Manchurian Candidate and Israeli guided missiles — hypnotic subjects — they haven’t a clue.
Regarding Sheldon Adelson: I have a healthy respect for the intelligence of the working class guy from Brockton, Massachusetts who managed to found Comdex. I dislike his politics, but I don’t underestimate his intellect or his will to achieve and succeed. Adelson, by the way, is worth ten times as much as quarter billionaire (and Mormon Zionist) Mitt Romney.
tree,
I am not arguing that all members of the American power elite are high achievers or intellectually brilliant — clearly that it is not the case. I *am* arguing that the American power elite *overall* respects education, creativity and intellectual achievement — certainly much more so than Christian Zionists. Christian Zionists detest fancy book-larnin’ and intellectual elites — they dismiss the products of elite universities as “snobs.” They revere a set of cultural values that traps them near or at the bottom of the social heap.
Sigh. I would try posting my reply for the fifth time — but why?
What’s going to be weird if if this goes up. Just to check the impossible, I’ll carefully avoid saying the rather moderate remarks I would like to say and see if this appears.
I had a go at posting yet another variation on that-which-I-would-wish-to-say…no joy.
I’ll be hornswoggled. There has got to be a non-supernatural explanation for this — but I’ll be goshdarned if I can figure out what it is.
1. The post-which-I-am-not-permitted-to-make isn’t especially long.
2. It doesn’t have any contents that could be considered remotely controversial. Obviously, I can’t describe said contents, or this post won’t appear either, but…
“and it seems to me the board has some sort of chronic problem that should be addressed.”
Again, I urge you to copy comments, especially if they are long, thoughtful or reply to critical issues, to clipboard or another program. If your comments are ‘dropped’ (and I find it hard to believe you would write something so offensive it couldn’t be ‘printed’. No, it’s unimaginable.) you have another copy to submit. Rather than trying to reconstruct a comment from memory. And it may be helpful to view a longer comment all in one piece, which the small comment box does not permit.
Tried that. In fact, I tried posting it as a response to you (among other things).
Still no joy. I bet this goes up, though.
At any rate, I’d gladly trade your problem for mine. Almost three times as many posts appear under my name as I write, and often, for no reason, posts are mined from my archive, or random archives, and appear under my name. I don’t know what to do! I’m afraid to complain about it.
But tell me again about the “voice” in my writing! Like Harvey Fierstein, but without all those unpleasant “macho” overtones, huh?
Wait a minute, Colin; you are aware that posts are not moderated in sequential order? Two posts, one submitted later but which requires minimal moderating may appear first, and a post submitted earlier which requires extensive moderating, legal research, resort to outside experts, prayer, meditation, etc., may take longer to appear. Honestly, it can take a while.
@ Klaus Bloemker
Hostage, I don’t really understand what you refer to, “the two core Christian values”.
Well Mondo keeps eating my replies. So here’s one more stab at it. Another user commented on core Christian values and cited the Golden rule and a commandment from the Torah: to love your neighbor as yourself. He asked if there were any Jewish core values like those two, without realizing that they were examples of beliefs that originated in Judaism. All of the discussions in the Christian scriptures deal with topics from the Jewish Torah, Prophets, and other Scriptures and the speakers frequently use pre-existing Jewish scriptures as proof texts.
My point was: Judaism – unlike Christianity – doesn’t have a concept of turning an enemy into a friend, turning evil into good.
That idea is found in the Torah. The story of Joseph in Genesis Chapter 50:20 is a parable about that subject. He believed that what his brothers had intended for evil, God had turned into something good. So he forgave them. Jacob believed Laban”s attempts to defraud him, had similarly been turned into material blessings. Jacob did not seek revenge or try to harm Laban. David looked after King Saul’s posterity, despite Saul’s repeated attempts to murder David.
There is an eternal struggle between the (good) Jews and the (evil) Gentiles.
The doctrine that God is no respecter of persons originates with the Prophets of Israel. They teach that Israel is like the other nations:
So, Hostage, the Golden/Silver Rule was never employed as a standard in ancient Babylon, China, Egypt? It never existed until Judaism employed it?
link to en.wikipedia.org
Exactly right, Citizen. The notion that this is something that originated in Judaism is clearly false. But more to the point, the history of Judaism before the split between Judaism and Christianity is not the exclusive preserve of Judaism. It belongs to both and is, to the extend anything is, Judeo-Christian, as the Christians believe that theirs is the proper path from everything that came before that split.
Exactly right, Citizen. The notion that this is something that originated in Judaism is clearly false.
I only commented that they had a Jewish pedigree. Even the Jews believed that the Noahide commandments were a subset of a much older order of Divinely revealed laws that were universally accepted and enforceable.
Some of the examples that Wikipedia cites are schools of ancient philosophy. They didn’t necessarily attach any Divine origin to the rules or believe there were supernatural blessings or curses attached to them. In that sense, it’s difficult to know if they had an origin in shared religious values or not. Hellenistic philosophy had its roots in the Mystery cults and societies. The exact details or meanings of their religious symbols were known only to the initiates. Josephus, Philo, and Paul compared the beliefs of the ancient Jewish sects to those held by the Stoics, Epicureans, and other schools of philosophy. Ezekiel’s vision of secret idolatry carried on in the Temple may have had some basis in fact. The Stoa Poikile – the painted porch – may have looked very similar to the chambers of imagery or murals and tiled floors discovered in ancient Jewish synagogues. The wheel of the Zodiac is a recurring theme that would have correspond well to Ezekiel’s description of every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, portrayed upon the wall round about.
But more to the point, the history of Judaism before the split between Judaism and Christianity is not the exclusive preserve of Judaism.
I never said that it was. I’ve commented on the Samaritans and their Temple and the fact that ancient Jews had several Temples to choose from, beside the one in Jerusalem. I’ve also commented on the likelihood that the communities in Alexandria, Rome, and Palestine did not behave themselves according to the rules that were adopted by the Jerusalem Temple cult or the myths created by the latter-day rabbinical or Talmudic streams of Judaism about their rituals.
Hostage,
You wrote:
“Well Mondo keeps eating my replies.”
Does anyone know what is going on with this? Some of my comments have also disappeared into the void before even reaching the moderation phase.
Has Mondoweiss been hacked, perhaps? Or is Mondoweiss trying to slow down the furious rate of commenting by adding a bit of subtle friction? :)
In the meantime, one can always post comments here:
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
link to friendfeed.com
This forum can always be used as a backup when Mondoweiss is not working.
Hostage, You wrote: “Well Mondo keeps eating my replies.” Does anyone know what is going on with this? Some of my comments have also disappeared into the void before even reaching the moderation phase.
It had been happening to me for months before I said anything about it. It has nothing to do with the number or frequency of comments. See the discussion here: November 16, 2011 at 6:11 am
link to mondoweiss.net
Thanks I have noticed quite a few of my replies disappearing but assumed that was because of the content.
Mine disappear too but in my case I assumed they get kicked out by the redundancy filter since all I do is repeat myself. lol