Last month the California State Assembly passed a resolution equating campus criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, and The Forward has a fine piece of reporting on a little-noticed sleight-of-hand used in California and elsewhere: the invocation of an anti-Semitism definition originated in the EU in 2005 but since discarded, that includes statements that Israel is racist. After all, who could be against the EU? Aren’t the Europeans the ones who are most critical of Israel? Seth Berkman in the Forward:
Like many others addressing the issue, the state assembly referenced a definition of anti-Semitism first put out by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia, known under the acronym EUMC, in 2005 [an obscure agency of the European Union]. Yet oddly, it is a definition the center’s successor agency does not use in its own publications today. One of the center’s top officials for monitoring anti-Semitism refers to the definition as “an historical document” that was meant only as a “guide for data collection” for its affiliates.
“There is no issue of the FRA, as an EU agency, endorsing any definition,” the official, Ioannis Dimitrakopoulos told the Forward, referring to the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights, the EUMC’s successor agency, by its acronym.
Nevertheless, what the EUMC referred to originally as a “working definition” has become a standard for important institutions on both sides of the Atlantic. Besides the California State Assembly, it is cited by the U.S. State Department, the United Kingdom’s All-Party Parliamentary Group Against Antisemitism, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe and a recent report by a University of California commission on campus prejudice. The definition, which was composed with input from B’nai Brith International and the American Jewish Committee, is also endorsed by American Jewish groups and used in reports by the Jewish Council for Public Affairs….
[Portions of that definition]
• “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination — e.g., by claiming the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor”;
• “Applying double standards” to Israel by demanding it follow behavior not demanded “of any other democratic nation”;
• Comparing Israeli policies to Nazi policies;
• Using “symbols and images associated with classical anti-Semitism” to characterize Israel or Israelis.
“Besides the California State Assembly, it is cited by the U.S. State Department, the United Kingdom’s All-Party Parliamentary Group Against Antisemitism, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe and a recent report by a University of California commission on campus prejudice. The definition, which was composed with input from B’nai Brith International and the American Jewish Committee, is also endorsed by American Jewish groups and used in reports by the Jewish Council for Public Affairs….”
And the flying finger to all of them. Jews are no longer victims. Move on.
The ADL’s original raison d’etre was to fight the injustice of antisemitism in the US.
Look how far it has fallen in the meantime regarding gross violations of human dignity .
link to haaretz.com
While the Anti-Defamation League slammed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas for delivering “a harsh and divisive speech, which once again included false charges against Israel of racism, ethnic cleansing, religious persecution and war crimes and alleged Israeli government collusion with anti-Palestinian violence carried out by extremist Israelis,” it praised Netanyahu who “laid out in detail and even used a very simple but quite effective graphic to demonstrate to the international community the basic reasons why it is crucial to intensify international action to stop Iran’s accelerating nuclear weapons program.”
“Discarded EU definition of anti-Semitism is important tool in silencing criticism of Israel”
If you allow it to be. Someone should take this to court – how about you, Phil? Head to Cali and get picked up on anti-semitism charges and fight it – we’ll get a kickstarter going for ya… You could take it all the way to the Supreme Court
Dan Crowther says: “…Someone should take this to court – how about you, Phil? Head to Cali and get picked up on anti-semitism charges and fight it – we’ll get a kickstarter going for ya… You could take it all the way to the Supreme Court.”
I don’t think the resolution contains any provisions for enforcement.
Good article Mr. Weiss, this “definition” is clearly absurd and used to silence criticism of Israeli actions and associated Zionist ideology itself.
My personal analysis:
1) Jewish people live in various nations around the world, and the Zionist movement’s attempts to claim that they allegedly “speak for Jews” is both unjust and simply incorrect (as anyone who has researched the Zionist movement and its’ history in-depth realizes). Also the fundamental question that is too be asked in this case (and is never provided with a proper answer by the Zionists or their hasbara propaganda agents) is HOW exactly is Israel a “Jewish state”??!
Israel is not ruled by any form of Rabbinic Halakha which would be the only logical definition to define something as a “Jewish state” (i.e. like having an Islamic state would be based on Islamic religious law aka Shari’ah, or a state defining itself as a Christian state would be based on some form of Christian canon law, etc). But the only aspect of Jewish “religious law” the current Israeli system uses is very small token gestures (other than just trying to occasionally use the Bible as a propaganda document for their “case” with some of the nutty right wing Evangelical “Christian Zionist” groups today) such as shutting down some public transit on the Sabbath, etc. The main “religious” element of the Israeli legal system is not allowing civil marriages; and that is simply for RACIST reasons of not wanting Jews to marry non-Jews (I recommend looking back at say Joachim Prinz’s work “Wir Juden” in 1934 to see a dangerous trend in that arena). Also Israel having an apartheid “legal system” makes it a racist state whatever these Zionists wanting to try to shutdown debate try to claim.
2) This seems to be simply a slightly different phrasing of/twist on the old “what about (insert blank country, group, etc here)” hasbara tactic link to mondoweiss.net
And that little claim of the Zionist hasbarists that Israel is allegedly being “abused” or something and being demanded to “follow behavior not demanded ‘of any other democratic nation’” is especially “interesting” shall we say. First one can simply see the occupied Palestinian territories, where Palestinians are neither allowed self-determination to form their own state or any voting rights in Israel or Israeli citizenship itself even though the Israeli government now even tries to claim that the occupied Palestinian territories supposedly aren’t occupied (and likely soon that the earth is flat as well as Adam Horowitz quipped) link to mondoweiss.net
Even going outside the occupied territories, serious investigators and researchers have long spoken about the institutionalized and systematic discrimination at every level against non-Jews within the state of Israel itself. All one needs to do on this is consult various Israeli human rights groups. And historian Ilan Pappe makes a concise response to the claims that Israel is supposedly a democracy in this interview link to youtube.com (see starting at 13:00 specifically) making an observation of Israel’s similarities to old herrenvolk “democracy” and how while even “allowing” Arab Israelis to vote (even this is often curtailed and only whimsically “allowed”) is still meaningless when Arab Israelis are discriminated against and disenfranchised at every single level of Israeli society (i.e. like their schools receiving only a fraction of the funding that schools serving Israeli Jews receive, etc) link to adalah.org
And to quote Noel Ignatiev’s work: link to counterpunch.org
“Unlike many countries, including the United States, the Israeli state does not belong, even in principle, to those who reside within its borders, but is defined as the state of the Jewish people, wherever they may be. That peculiar definition is one reason why the state has to this day failed to produce a written constitution, define its borders, or even declare the existence of an Israeli nationality. Moreover, in this ‘outpost of democracy,’ no party that opposes the existence of the Jewish state is permitted to take part in elections. It is as if the United States were to declare itself a Christian state, define ‘Christian’ not by religious belief but by descent, and then pass a ‘gag law’ prohibiting public discussion of the issue.”
3) “Comparing Israeli policies to Nazi policies”, as they say “if the shoe fits”. One can also note the striking similarity between the Nazis’ own racial law and how the Nazis determined who was “Jewish” in their racial law; and modern Israeli law (i.e. the “right of return” in particular). And if one does analyze them they will see they are almost, if not, identical. Showing that the Zionist movement and the Nazis share a common idea on what makes someone “Jewish” (again I’d recommend seeing Joachim Prinz’s 1934 book “Wir Juden” to get an idea of where Zionist “discourse” has often gone, along with its early open racist eugenicist members like Max Nordau, etc etc)
4) What are these supposed “symbols”??
What are these supposed “symbols”??
Abdul-Rahman don’t be so naive, as you never read the Elder of Zion …… or for you Elder of Zion it is not antisemitic ?
Bibi doesn’t have a hook nose
What exactly does the “Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” supposedly have to do with anything? That dubious thing you randomly bring up is certainly not something serious analysts and opponents of Zionist ideology ever appeal to. We have actual sources to go to like say the work of the Israeli new historians documenting that almost every single one of the most common Zionist claims and myths, which Zionists did and some hasbarists still sometimes do spout, turn out in almost every single case to be false and expose what liars Zionists are.
link to palestineremembered.com
The German “study” on anti-Semitism from last year also mentioned this particular definition of anti-Semitism, but stated that it is only of limited use. However, the “study” equated anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, too. A “blanket defamation of the Jewish state” and an “aversion to the existence of a Jewish state” are anti-Semitic. Comparing Zionism to Nazism is anti-Semitic. Saying that solely Israel is responsible for the Middle East conflict and regarding the Palestinians as innocent victims is anti-Semitic.
“Der antizionistische Antisemitismus tritt unter dem Deckmantel einer Ablehnung der Innen- und Außenpolitik des Staates Israel auf, der im Kern aus einer besonderen ideologischen Verzerrung und pauschalen Diffamierung des jüdischen Staates besteht, die sich zugleich traditioneller antisemitischer Stereotype bedient. Dabei lässt sich das eigentliche Motiv für die Aversion gegen Israel einzig in der Tatsache der Existenz eines jüdischen Staates ausmachen. Nicht jede einseitige oder undifferenzierte Kritik an Israel ist jedoch antisemitisch. [...]
Zu den politischen Themenfeldern, die für den Zusammenhang von Antisemitismus und Linksextremismus von herausragender Bedeutung sind, gehört die Israelkritik. Deren Einseitigkeit und Intensität, Schärfe und Unangemessenheit ist evident: Im angeblich aggressiven Vorgehen Israels wird die alleinige Ursache für den Nahostkonflikt gesehen, die arabische beziehungsweise palästinensische Seite wird hingegen nur als unschuldiges Opfer wahrgenommen, die legitimen Sicherheitsinteressen Israels werden nicht beachtet; auch finden die bedenklichen Ansichten und Handlungen der islamistischen und nichtislamistischen Gegner des Staates kaum kritische Aufmerksamkeit. Die besondere Empörung über angebliche
oder tatsächliche Menschenrechtsverletzungen durch Israel steht für Doppel-Standards bei der Einschätzung, direkte und indirekte Anspielungen deuten auf eine Gleichsetzung mit dem Apartheidstaat oder dem Nationalsozialismus hin.
Derartige Auffassungen finden sich etwa in der Tageszeitung ‘Junge Welt’ bei deren Leitkolumnisten Werner Pirker: Da ist die Rede von einem ‘Apartheid-Staat’ und einem ‘Staat aus der Retorte’, der ‘im Ergebnis eines ethnischen Säuberungsprozesses, der seinesgleichen sucht’, entstanden sei. Solche Positionen zeigen klare Berührungspunkte zu antisemitischen Diskursen: Hier gilt Israel als künstlicher Staat ohne Existenzberechtigung, der mit Genozid und Rassismus in Verbindung gebracht wird. Gerade bei Letztgenanntem erfolgt eine indirekte Gleichsetzung mit dem Nationalsozialismus. Dabei muss die historische Unangemessenheit solcher Haltungen nicht näher begründet werden, steht doch das Vorgehen Israels in keinem Verhältnis zur Praxis des NS-Regimes. Derartige Aussagen laufen auf eine Dämonisierung Israels als Verbrecherstaat hinaus. Gleichzeitig gehen mit solchen Diskursinhalten eine Relativierung der NS-Untaten und eine Täter-Opfer-Umkehr einher.
Allerdings müssen derartige Auffassungen nicht vordergründig antisemitisch motiviert sein. Betrachtet man die linksextremistische Ideologie bezüglich ihrer Einschätzung des Nahostkonflikts, so lassen sich für die genannten Positionen auch
andere politische Begründungen ausmachen: Israel gilt demnach nicht primär als jüdischer, sondern als imperialistischer und kapitalistischer Staat. Araber beziehungsweise Palästinenser werden als Opfer eines westlichen Dominanzstrebens
gesehen, das insbesondere Israel zur Durchsetzung seiner Interessen im Nahen Osten nutzt. Hier besteht auch ein Unterschied zu einer antisemitischen Position, sieht diese doch nicht in Israel ein Instrument der USA, sondern umgekehrt in den USA ein Instrument Israels beziehungsweise der Juden. Die indirekten Gleichsetzungen mit dem Nationalsozialismus ergeben sich aus dem ‘Antifaschismus’ des Linksextremismus, der mit einem inflationären Faschismusverständnis gern alle nur möglichen Gegner mit einschlägigen Etiketten als Inkarnation des ‘Bösen’ an sich belegt. [...]
Dies gilt vor allem für die Israelkritik im öffentlichen Diskurs von Linksextremisten, die meist von einem einseitigen Feindbild bezüglich der Verantwortung für den Nahostkonflikt geprägt ist: Man sieht die Hauptschuld im angeblich aggressiven
und unangemessenen Vorgehen der israelischen Regierung, bringt dieses mit historisch-politisch besetzten Begrifflichkeiten wie ‘Vernichtungskrieg’ mit dem Nationalsozialismus in Verbindung und ignoriert Menschenrechtsverletzungen und
Schuldanteile der arabischen beziehungsweise palästinensischen Seite. Mitunter führen dabei Linksextremisten die Unterstützung Israels durch die Bundesregierung auf eine diesbezüglich bedenkliche Haltung zur Vergangenheitsbewältigung zurück. Derartige Diskursinhalte leiten sich aus einem linksextremistischen ‘Antiimperialismus’ ab. Bei solchen Auffassungen ergeben sich aber auch inhaltliche Anknüpfungspunkte für den Antisemitismus, was in diesem politischen Lager immer noch nicht selbstkritisch genug problematisiert wird.”
Brian Klug (who was apparently instrumental in preventing the official adoption by the EU of the “working guidelines”) addresses the equation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism in an incisive article, from 2003, on “the new antisemitism”:
link to oxford.academia.edu
Klug concludes as follows:
“…people will not know how to avoid seeming antisemitic and Jews will not know how to stop being victims.”
This is the situation now.
“…people will not know how to avoid seeming antisemitic and Jews will not know how to stop being victims.”
This is an absurd contention. A situation like this does not happen to those with an all-compassing tradition of ethics and a whole lotta soul!
Besides, we have Jewish leaders, leaders of the Jewish community. People with the +15 wouldn’t get caught in a situation like this. It must not be happening.
Kudos to the Forward for covering the EUMC “working definition” as it relates to CA’s HR35. Birnbaum mentions briefly the role of the AJC’s Kenneth Stern in contributing to the drafting of the EUMC’s statement back in 2005:
Unfortunately, the “New Anti-Semitism” blueprint of the EUMC “working definition” has been used since its formulation in many fora to suppress free speech. The examples on campuses in California and Canada are only the most recent. In online websites, the use of this definition to shut down discussion about Israel started happening shortly after it was published. At the Garish Orange Site, hasbarists made a concerted push to get the EUMC “working definition” adopted around 2006. Several of Israel’s critics on the site stood up against that blanket adoption and the site admins did not incorporate it into the site FAQ. Under Condi Rice, the State Department did not endorse the EUMC “working definition,” but it has since Hillary Clinton has become SOS.
Make that Berkman, not Birnbaum.
The Forward article also notes that CA HR 35 not only included “New Anti-Semitism” talking points from the EUMC “working definition,” but added a few more specifically related to BDS:
“Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination”
It’s official.
Under that clause I am an anti-Semite*.
The fact that I deny that any “people” (ethnic/religious/cultural/etc. group) has such a right qua “people”will not change the matter.
*Not that any of you ever doubted it.
This does not show that you’re an anti-Semite by normal standards but that the formula does not meet the normal standards of a ‘definition’. It’s not simply a proposed rule about how to use words but a rule based on a background assertion – there exists this right of self-determination and we define as ‘anti-Semitism’ any denial of this right to Jewish people. Yet all logic depends on being able to keep definition distinct from description or assertion.
I agree with you, as you’ve probably noticed, about the non-genuineness of the alleged right to national self-determination. It’s not, at least not when words are being used strictly, the Palestinian nation that is being wronged but Palestinian individuals, each one of them.
“This does not show that you’re an anti-Semite by normal standards … Yet all logic depends on being able to keep definition distinct from description or assertion.”
True. But it is official.
Klug says:
“hostility towards Israel is not based on the fact that the state is Jewish”
————
But aren’t Israel’s policies based on the fact that the state is Jewish?
- Of course they are: starting with the ‘Law of Return’, the lack of civil marriage between Jewish Israelis and others, to calling the West Bank not ‘occupied territory’
but ‘Judea and Samaria’ in all state publications.
The whole Eiertanz (egg dance) around the term anti-Semitic/Jewish is ridiculous..
But aren’t Israel’s policies based on the fact that the state is Jewish?
And Rabbi Cohen was singing Jewish songs at the top of his voice when he was thrown off the bus, but that doesn’t mean the conductor was an anti-Semite.
The whole Eiertanz (egg dance) around the term anti-Semitic/Jewish is ridiculous.
What a frivolous language, German. Wasting whole eggs and dancing about it to boot! The English are much more sober. They merely walk on the shells.
Shmuel -
“And Rabbi Cohen was singing Jewish songs at the top of his voice when he was thrown off the bus, but that doesn’t mean the conductor was an anti-Semite.”
- But maybe the conductor had actually gotten anti-Jewish because it was always Rabbis who sang their songs at the top of their voices when riding on his bus.
But maybe the conductor had actually gotten anti-Jewish because it was always Rabbis who sang their songs at the top of their voices when riding on his bus.
Or maybe she only noticed the rabbis who sang, because she believed that singing loudly in public places is an expression of the “Jewish spirit”. Or maybe she was so convinced of this “Jewish” trait, that she just assumed that anyone who sang on her bus must be Jewish.
Oh, I see. Playing devil’s advocate again, Klaus. Good thing you don’t believe any of that rot.
I see Shmuel –
it’s all a matter of cognitive disorder on the part of the conductor.
He got to see a Jewish shrink who will straighten him out.
it’s all a matter of cognitive disorder on the part of the conductor.
He got to see a Jewish shrink who will straighten him out.
Nah, therapy is for effete Jews and those afflicted by the Jewish spirit. Our conductor (a woman, by the way, named Mary) is made of much sterner stuff. She’ll work it out in the gym or join the BNP and take it out on Muslims or something.
Shmuel -
You are diverting from the singing Rabbis.
They sing their song of Eretz Israel at the top of their voices now for several decades: “We return, we return to Judea and Samaria”.
Mary wants the Rabbis – along with the Muftis – to be thrown off the bus.
She believes that the Jewish spirit – along with the Muslim one – originated in the same desert sand and must be a Fata Morgana.
Klaus,
Why don’t you read Klug’s article. You might even find it interesting – despite its ridiculous egg-dancing topic.
“But maybe the conductor had actually gotten anti-Jewish because it was always Rabbis who sang their songs at the top of their voices when riding on his bus.”
Of course, if anybody had taken my suggestion that Jewish litirgical music start addmitting influences from popular music, rythym&blues in the manner of Gospel music, this wouldn’t have happened. And the Kol Nidre would be #1 on the Smooth Jazz charts. But nobody listens to me.
In case someone’s wondering about the word “Eiertanz”- it doesn’t mean “dancing” in a strict sense, but moving around and around the eggs for fear to break them. It’s mostly used for ways of thinking which are crooked out of fear to have someone insulted.
In case someone’s wondering about the word “Eiertanz”- it doesn’t mean “dancing” in a strict sense, but moving around and around the eggs for fear to break them. It’s mostly used for ways of thinking which are crooked out of fear to have someone insulted.
Like the English idiom “walking on eggshells”. No actual walking required.
link to en.wiktionary.org
Re: ..The whole Eiertanz (egg dance) around the term anti-Semitic/Jewish is ridiculous.
Yes, of course it is. HOWEVER, it serves an unholy puporse!
To frighten off people to think for themselves about what they see, and to call a spade a spade – irrespective of the notorious AS – crossbar.
Accordingto the Working Definition of AS, e.g. everybody who uses the term Israel Firsters qualifies as an AS.
>> “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination — e.g., by claiming the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor”;
The mass-migration of foreign nationals from countries around the world to Palestine for the purpose of establishing an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state is not “self-determination”.
Full text of the “Antisemitism Working Definition” for your easy reference.
Although the said Definition has no formal status, it is striking that it is still very much put to base by many. So, One can hardly can argue it had been fully discarded. Yes,it should be – however, obviously it serves nicely ulterior purposes.
It is difficult to get by the full text of the former EUMC, now FRA-disavowed, but frequently abused “AS-Working definition”. Here it is:
WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM
EUMC Report on Anti-Semitism 16Mar2005
The purpose of this document is to provide a practical guide for identifying incidents, collecting data, and supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism.
Working definition: “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”
In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.
Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:
• Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
• Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
• Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
• Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World WarII (the Holocaust).
• Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
• Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations. ,
Examples, of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:
• Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
• Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
• Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
• Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.
Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries).
Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property—such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries—are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews.
Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Remark: bold highlighting has been added, with the exception for the last three sentences.
I just discovered these videos:
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
Apparently, Jewish Germans are annoyed because non-Jewish Germans constantly want to talk to them about Israel.
Wouldn,t it be Anti Semitic to ignore Israel,s crimes because it is the so called Jewish State.
Yes. Allowing Zionists to misuse Judaism and the Holocaust for violating international law can be considered anti-Semitic.
Lefty – re: your second link to youtube.
The group called “Honestly Concerned” had a stand in front of the International
Frankfurt Bookfair in October 2004. That year, the Arab League was the so called ‘guest of honor’ at the bookfair. (Every year a country is a ‘guest of honor’.)
Honestly Concerned’s stand sported Israeli flags and the slogan:
“REGIME CHANGE INSTEAD OF CRITICAL DIALOG”
(‘Critical dialog’ with Arab countries had been the motto of the bookfair organizers.)
——————————————————————————————-
Everybody knows, what in 2004 ‘regime change’ meant: War on the Arab states.
@ Klaus:
I had never heard of the group “Honestly Concerned” before.
You know what? If I were a Jewish German, then I would be glad that non-Jewish Germans ask me about Israel so often, because I could take these opportunities to disassociate myself from Israel and to make clear that this foreign country does NOT act in my name. However, what do most Jewish Germans do? Instead of condemning Israel and her crimes, they DEFEND them.
>> If I were a Jewish German, then I would be glad that non-Jewish Germans ask me about Israel so often, because I could take these opportunities to disassociate myself from Israel and to make clear that this foreign country does NOT act in my name. However, what do most Jewish Germans do? Instead of condemning Israel and her crimes, they DEFEND them.
This defense, combined with the constant labeling of Israel as “the Jewish State”, is why I strongly suspect many people in the West (and elsewhere) will end up incorrectly blaming “the Jews” – rather than just Israelis or Zionists – should Israel initiate a regional war with global consequences.
eljay wrote,
Zionists, through relentless and scientific propaganda, have suceeded in imprinting on the mind of the world that Zionism = Israel = “the Jews” = Judaism. That is a done deal. And most Jews don’t seem to be alarmed about the success of this propaganda campaign or cognizant of what could go wrong with it.
To undo this impression among most Americans, Europeans, Christians, Muslims, etc. at this point would require a brilliant reverse propaganda campaign of equal or greater force. But that is not likely to happen because most Jews are in fact Zionists.
@ seanmcbride:
And most Jews don’t seem to be alarmed about the success of this propaganda campaign or cognizant of what could go wrong with it. [...] But that is not likely to happen because most Jews are in fact Zionists.
Right.
“is why I strongly suspect many people in the West (and elsewhere) will end up incorrectly blaming “the Jews”
Hey, Christians had a world wide split over the old flaming-dog-poop-in-a-bag prank (the 95 feces) and the Jews split into three denominations over small differences in belief and practice. But there’s no non-Zionist Jewish denomination.
Believe me, the world will know who to blame.
But there’s no non-Zionist Jewish denomination.
What about the ultra-Orthodox?
>> If I were a Jewish German, then I would be glad that non-Jewish Germans ask me about Israel so often, because I could take these opportunities to disassociate myself from Israel and to make clear that this foreign country does NOT act in my name. However, what do most Jewish Germans do? Instead of condemning Israel and her crimes, they DEFEND them.
I know European Jews who do not want to deal with the subject of Israel at all. They neither criticise nor defend Israel or Israeli policies, and do not feel that they should be held responsible or even expected to take a position, simply because they are Jews. I think this view is both understandable and defensible.
I were
I would be pleased to be lectured by someone like me that gorged wisdom with huge spoons. (Weisheit mit Löffeln fressen).
@ Shmuel
They neither criticise nor defend Israel or Israeli policies, and do not feel that they should be held responsible or even expected to take a position, simply because they are Jews. I think this view is both understandable and defensible.
Well, if they don’t want to be held responsible for what Israel does, then they need to complain to Israel about it, because it’s Israel that calls herself the “Jewish state” and that put the Star of David on her flag. As a Jew, you can’t be indifferent to Israel’s policies, because Israel acts in your name and thereby damages your reputation.
@ LeaNder
What’s your problem?
GL,
The people I am referring to don’t see it that way. As far as they are concerned, Israel wrongly claims to be the state of all Jews (as if even being the citizen of a state makes you answerable for all its actions) and some people fall for it. They don’t want to have anything to do with Israel – pro or con – and wish their fellow citizens (Italians, Germans, French, etc.) would not expect them to be either one or the other, simply because of their ethnicity or religion. A perfectly reasonable request, if you ask me.
@ Shmuel:
As far as they are concerned, Israel wrongly claims to be the state of all Jews
Right. And that’s precisely why they should be outraged about Israel.
as if even being the citizen of a state makes you answerable for all its actions
Well, if the German government, which claims to represent me, does something stupid or illegal, then foreigners can expect me to have an opinion on this. It would be unfair to be mad at them for bothering me. I have to direct my anger at the German government.
They don’t want to have anything to do with Israel and wish their fellow citizens would not expect them to be either one or the other, simply because of their ethnicity or religion.
No, no. It’s not because of their ethnicity or religion. It’s because of Israel’s claim to represent them. That’s the problem.
Shmuel wrote,
I couldn’t agree more — that is a perfectly reasonable request.
But the Israeli government, the Israel lobby and the worldwide Jewish establishment have been in the forefront in aggressively defining “the Jewish people” and “the Jews” as Zionists and members of a mystical global ethnic collective organized around biblical Israel.
Shouldn’t the worldwide Jewish establishment be held accountable for creating this confusion among non-Jews? Do most non-Jews have the time or interest to sort through and critically deconstruct the endless flood of propaganda from the Israel lobby? I don’t think they do. They are understandably more focused on hundreds of issues of greater importance to themselves than Israel and intra-Jewish ideological battles.
When most contemporary non-Jews think “Jews” they think “Israel” — the Jewish establishment has gone to extraordinary lengths for decades now to program them to think this way. Now that establishment has to deal with the consequences of its own actions.
German Lefty,
Indeed — that is the very crux of the problem — Zionists themselves bear the main responsibility for creating the impression all around the world that Zionism = “the Jews” — and the Jewish community overall bears responsibility for permitting or enabling Zionists to hijack the Jewish tradition.
What is unreasonable is to blame non-Jews for believing a relentless stream of Zionist propaganda. It is the responsibility of the worldwide Jewish establishment to change the dynamic here — but it refuses to do so.
@ Shmuel
It’s also perfectly reasonable, say, to ask American tourists abroad or at home, when there is modest opportunity, what they think of any aspect of US foreign policy, which Americans may defend or join in criticizing. And it’s noted the American flag has no cross on it. OTOH, it’s not reasonable to ask such of somebody coming from an undemocratic state without constitutional free speech. The Israeli leaders speak to the whole world constantly in the name of all Jews, with Israel being billed as the only insurance policy against another Shoah anywhere in the world, which they also directly imply is a world in which there is never a dirth of jew-haters & baiters in each succeeding generation of non-jews, just waiting for opportunity to strike. Israeli leaders also constantly remind the world it is the only democracy in the Middle East with values just like America’s, “judeo-christian” values.
Shmuel,
To navigate the complexities of Zionism requires a rich toolbox of surgical concepts. For instance, these are some terms that are legitimate, useful and necessary:
1. anti-Jewish anti-Zionist
2. anti-Jewish Zionist
3. anti-Zionist
4. Christian anti-Zionist
5. Christian Zionist
6. former Zionist
7. Jewish anti-Zionist
8. Jewish non-Zionist
9. Jewish religious Zionist
10. Jewish secular Zionist
11. Jewish Zionist
12. Likud Zionist
13. Marxist anti-Zionist
14. Marxist Zionist
15. Mormon Zionist
16. Muslim anti-Zionist
17. non-Jewish anti-Zionist
18. non-Jewish non-Zionist
19. non-Jewish Zionist
20. non-Zionist
21. Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist
22. Orthodox Jewish Zionist
23. pro-Jewish anti-Zionist
24. proto-Zionist
25. religious Zionist
26. secular Zionist
27. Zionist
But here is my point: how many non-Jews should be reasonably expected to master all these arcane ideological distinctions for an ethnic and religious nationalist movement that concerns them not in the least?
Very few, in my opinion. Most non-Jews believe whatever the worldwide Jewish establishment tells them on these matters.
After sifting through this morass I have come to the conclusion that the world can basically be divided into people who are Zionists and people who are aren’t — that is all that really matters.
(Does anyone else here have some useful terms to add to my toolbox? I am sure there are many.)
If only I knew, Lefty, I missed the essential if above, if I were, if I were you I could dictate? It makes me feel deeply sad.
The closest I can get is concerning the diverse emotional layers that may push these peculiar–at least for me–revenge action by analyzing my own responses over the decades.
What your above statement feels like: Now finally we are the ones that can act as inquisitors, finally everything we had to suppress as the “ultimate perpetrators” has free reign. Finally “we” can utter our demands again, you are either with us or against us. And if you are with us, you cannot be with them. Maybe the inquisition was much more “human” than “Catholic”? Am I mistaken, you never had a single Jewish (girl)friend?
>> They don’t want to have anything to do with Israel – pro or con – and wish their fellow citizens (Italians, Germans, French, etc.) would not expect them to be either one or the other, simply because of their ethnicity or religion.
I agree that Jews shouldn’t have to denounce Israel just as Muslims shouldn’t have to denounce Saudi Arabia or “Islamofascists”. Unfortunately, too many people believe – or can be led to believe – that a lack of denunciations equates to tacit approval.
Shmuel,
This argument could be made: Zionism represents the greatest threat to Jews worldwide and Jews worldwide bear the primary responsibility for defusing that threat.
What think you? I am entertaining that idea. It has a certain ring of truth about it. I am looking for counterarguments.
Lefty, Shmuel -
Lefty note: You use the term “Jewish Germans”, Shmuel says “European Jews” (he doesn’t say ‘Jewish Europeans’). – Anyway.
———–
Jews in Germany are in an awkward position. They are frowned upon by other Jews, ‘how the hell did you choose to live in Germany?’ They have to defend themselves and their Jewishness. I think that makes many of them overly pro-Israel. There are two criteria to prove you are a good Jew:
- You marry Jewish and you support Israel.
And that’s precisely why they should be outraged about Israel.
Sez you. That’s a separate issue – between them and the State of Israel. What they would like to know is why you presume to tell them what their responsibilities are, based on their religion or ethnicity.
Well, if the German government, which claims to represent me, does something stupid or illegal, then foreigners can expect me to have an opinion on this.
But the German government does represent you. You were born in Germany, hold German citizenship and reside in Germany. These Jews are not, have never been and will never be Israeli citizens – regardless of what the Israeli state may claim.
It’s not because of their ethnicity or religion. It’s because of Israel’s claim to represent them. That’s the problem.
Once again, that is between them and the Israeli state. The problem is your presumption that they bear responsibility for claims and/or actions over which they have no control and in which they have no interest.
“Israel’s claim to represent them [all Jews]. That’s the Problem.” – Lefty
Here is another problem: The national Jewish organizations claim to represent the Jews of the state in question. These organizations are pro-Israel. But do they represent the Jews of their state (US, Germany)?
In Germany there are about 200,000 Jews.
About 120,000 of them belong to a Synagogue community.
———————
I know of an Israeli woman who moved to Germany. On the immigration form she checked “Jewish” as her religion. She was automatically transferred to the Frankfurt Jewish community. But she didn’t want to belong there (and pay the dues). – The German bureaucrats didn’t understand why she protested. Didn’t she say on the form she belonged to ‘the Jewish church’.
Shouldn’t the worldwide Jewish establishment be held accountable for creating this confusion among non-Jews?
And among Jews as well. Absolutely. But that doesn’t necessarily translate into making it the responsibility of each and every Jew to take it upon themselves to do so.
Do most non-Jews have the time or interest to sort through and critically deconstruct the endless flood of propaganda from the Israel lobby? I don’t think they do… When most contemporary non-Jews think “Jews” they think “Israel”
Those who are responsible should take responsibility, and those who are not should not be expected to. Those who are bothered by it, may or may not take it up with “the Jewish establishment” or the Israeli state, or they may address it by explaining to confused non-Jews (and Jews) that Jew is not synonymous with Israeli or Israel-supporter.
One may legitimately have the latter sort of conversation – even pointing out that Israel and many Jewish communal institutions tirelessly promote such confusion – without ever actually taking a position on Zionism or Israel itself. It could go something like this: ‘Sorry, sir, but you have been misinformed. Not all Jews are Israelis or supporters of Israel. I don’t blame you. Some people go to great lengths to promote this mistaken notion. What do I think about the situation in the Occupied Territories? To tell you the truth, I don’t. As I have explained, it’s really not my concern.’
It’s also perfectly reasonable, say, to ask American tourists abroad or at home, when there is modest opportunity, what they think of any aspect of US foreign policy, which Americans may defend or join in criticizing.
American tourists hold U.S. citizenship, live in the U.S. and vote in U.S. elections. Our Jewish fellow has never even been to Israel, doesn’t speak the language, doesn’t follow the politics and doesn’t vote in Israeli elections. Your other example, of someone who hails from an undemocratic country would actually be a better analogy – although even s/he at least comes from there.
Zionism represents the greatest threat to Jews worldwide
That is a reasonable point of view, but I would say that, because I happen to agree with you.
and Jews worldwide bear the primary responsibility for defusing that threat
And that is between them and their co-religionists (Zionist and non-), God (if applicable) and/or their own consciences. Some might disagree with the proposition itself, while others might be fatalistic or simply not care about the future of Judaism. I think it would be an interesting and legitimate question to pose to someone who identifies as a Jew, but that is not the same as demanding that they ante up on Israel and Zionism, simply because they happen to be Jewish.
Lefty note: You use the term “Jewish Germans”, Shmuel says “European Jews” (he doesn’t say ‘Jewish Europeans’). – Anyway.
GL says she is a “German lefty”. Would you read something into my calling her a “left-wing German”?
@ Shmuel:
That’s a separate issue – between them and the State of Israel. What they would like to know is why you presume to tell them what their responsibilities are, based on their religion or ethnicity.
I don’t want to tell Jews what their responsibilities are. I merely gave my opinion. You have to consider that I am not a native speaker. Also, I am a straightforward person. These two things combined might make me sound a little bossy.
What angers me is that many Jewish Germans think that it’s anti-Semitic when non-Jewish Germans associate them with Israel and ask them about their opinion on Israel’s policies. Also, many Jewish Germans seem to be surprised about the fact that non-Jewish Germans want to talk to them about Israel. It’s as if these Jews don’t know that Israel is the self-declared “Jewish state”.
But the German government does represent you.
No, the German government does not represent me. I didn’t vote for any of the governing parties.
These Jews are not, have never been and will never be Israeli citizens – regardless of what the Israeli state may claim.
That’s precisely what they should tell the non-Jews who ask them about Israel.
Once again, that is between them and the Israeli state.
No, it’s not. Israel misinforms the whole world.
The problem is your presumption that they bear responsibility for claims and/or actions over which they have no control and in which they have no interest.
No. I didn’t say that non-Israeli Jews actually bear responsibility for these things. I just stated that it’s no surprise that many non-Jews want to hold them responsible, because of Israel’s false claim to represent “the Jews”.
@ Shmuel:
GL says she is a “German lefty”. Would you read something into my calling her a “left-wing German”?
Yes, there’s a difference:
German lefty = the emphasis is on “lefty”; a lefty who happens to be German
left-wing German = the emphasis is on “German”; a German who happens to be left-wing
Jewish German = a German who happens to be Jewish
German Jew = a Jew who happens to be German
Shmuel,
Let me emphasize that I think it is *wrong* and *offensive* for a non-Jew anywhere in the world (except for in Israel) to assume that a Jew is a Zionist. But I am trying to acknowledge the facts in the real world as I see them: most Americans (and most people everywhere) who don’t pay much attention to the details of Mideast politics tend to assume that most (or even all) Jews are Zionists.
In the current the groveling for Jewish votes and money (*mainly* money) by Mitt Romney (and, perhaps, to a lesser degree by Barack Obama — that is arguable), we see this simplistic ontology conspicuously on display every day of the week in the mainstream media: Jews = Zionism/Israel. David Gregory even suggested recently that Benjamin Netanyahu was the leader of the Jewish people worldwide.
When I said that I think that the Jewish community worldwide bears primary responsibility for undoing this insidious and dangerous propaganda, I was also thinking that non-Jews should do their best to help them — to encourage the recognition that Jews can manifest their Jewishness, the Jewish tradition and Judaism in positive, creative and productive ways that have absolutely nothing to do with Israel or Zionism, and in a manner that doesn’t in the slightest call into question their full and undivided loyalty to the nations in which they live as citizens.
German Lefty says: “…As a Jew, you can’t be indifferent to Israel’s policies, because Israel acts in your name and thereby damages your reputation.”
I don’t think so — not unless the Jew in question is from Israel or has otherwise somehow identified himself with Israel.
Else we would all be at the mercy of whatever collective chose to announce it was acting in our name. Nazi Germany aspired to represent all ethnic Germans; Eisenhower was presumably of German descent. Did Eisenhower feel obliged to defend Nazi policies or spend all his time publicly disassociating himself from them? Do we blame Eisenhower for not doing more to fight the rise of Naziism?
@ LeaNder:
Now finally we are the ones that can act as inquisitors, finally everything we had to suppress as the “ultimate perpetrators” has free reign. Finally “we” can utter our demands again
So, you think that I want to take revenge for something? Really? Why do you conflate past and present? I’ve never been a perpetrator. And I don’t live in the past. Therefore, I have no desire to “come back at the Jews” or whatever. I just look at the present situation and see the injustice. No more, no less.
Besides, I think of people as individuals, not as groups.
you are either with us or against us.
Well, that’s the case. You need to decide whether you support civic nationalism or ethnic nationalism. Ethnic nationalists are my enemies, regardless of whether they call themselves neo-Nazis or Zionists.
Am I mistaken, you never had a single Jewish (girl)friend?
Not sure what this has to do with it. The biggest homophobes justify their hatred by saying that they have gay friends. Having a friend of a certain group doesn’t prove anything. Besides, there are only 200,000 Jews in Germany. So, it is very unlikely to meet one, let alone make friends or fall in love with one. However, thanks to Mondoweiss, I do have a Jewish pen pal now.
Here is another problem: The national Jewish organizations claim to represent the Jews of the state in question. These organizations are pro-Israel.
Exactly. It’s really no surprise that non-Jews believe that “Jews are Zionists”. Therefore, non-Zionist Jews need to speak up. They should be glad about any opportunity to disassociate themselves from Israel. Besides, a non-Jew who asks you “What’s your opinion on Israel?” is certainly preferable to a non-Jew who tells you “You fucking Zionist! I beat you to a pulp!”.
Yes, there’s a difference:
Jewish German = a German who happens to be Jewish
German Jew = a Jew who happens to be German
I know there can be a difference, but I wouldn’t be so quick to read something into using one or the other (as Klaus did). European Jew seems to me to be the more common designation, at least in English and thus – to my ear at least – conveys no particular connotation. Jewish European, on the other hand, seems a little more unusual and, so – once again, to my ear – sounds like it is trying to make a point, to stress the European part.
Shmuel, Lefty -
“Jewish Germans” (Lefty)
My note was a critical hint on Lefty’s refusal to realize that most Jews define themselves primarily as Jews and secondary as citizens of the country they live in. Therefore: American Jews, French Jews etc.
As to the Jews living in Germany now:
1.
The German Jews who survived WWII – many of them Jewish Germans (married to Germans) who considered Germany their ‘fatherland’.
2.
Polish Jews who came to West Germany after the war because of Polish anti-Semitism. Many of them wanted to emigrate to America but stayed.
3.
Russian Jews who came after 1990. They are now the majority. The paper of the Berlin Jewish community prints every article in both German and Russian.
4.
Israeli Jews.
@ LeaNder
Is it possible “Lefty” simply has no guilt complex because she has not earned one? She could as well imply your Jewish associates have instilled one in you, if not your own government. She explains her reasoning constantly, while you are prone to attack commenters personally if you don’t agree with their message.
I think of people as individuals, not as groups
Unless they are Jews, in which case the onus is on them to distance themselves from a group with which you automatically associate them.
Besides, a non-Jew who asks you “What’s your opinion on Israel?” is certainly preferable to a non-Jew who tells you “You fucking Zionist! I beat you to a pulp!”.
I’ll keep that in mind.
@ Klaus:
My note was a critical hint on Lefty’s refusal to realize that most Jews define themselves primarily as Jews and secondary as citizens of the country they live in.
No, I don’t refuse to realise it. It’s just that as I mentioned “non-Jewish Germans”, I chose to use “Jewish Germans” as the opposite.
@ Shmuel:
Unless they are Jews, in which case the onus is on them to distance themselves from a group with which you automatically associate them.
Once again: It wasn’t me who made this association. It was Israel. And therefore, it is no surprise when non-Jews ask Jews about their opinion on this association. Besides, asking a Jew’s opinion on Israel is not tantamount to an accusation of being a Zionist.
@ Citizen:
Thanks for defending me.
She could as well imply your Jewish associates have instilled one in you
Oh, I haven’t thought of that.
citizen, I don’t have a guilt complex either. I have been suspected to be everything from a Nazi, over an inhibited German to a Jew. I honestly don’t care.
My government? – that makes me laugh. You honestly think my thoughts about matters could in any way be shaped by my government? Are yours shaped by the US government?
My Jewish “associates” didn’t try to instill anything into me. Did your Jewish wife try to instill anything into you?
Lefty, is Lefty, and I am me. I would feel very uncomfortable with a fan like you. It’s not that you never attacked me. Remember, when the “libertarian Christian America” Ed, the “editor” was still around?
Blame my mother, she is responsible for my core ethics not the German state, also responsible for some of my hypersensitivities, by the way.
Shmuel –
re: associating a Jew automatically with the group/category of Jews.
You did that Shmuel by using the term “European Jews”.
This term/language defines a Jew living in Italy or Germany primarily as belonging to the category of Jews and not as an individual Jew who belongs to the category of Italiens, Germans, or Europeans in general.
re: associating a Jew automatically with the group/category of Jews.
You did that Shmuel by using the term “European Jews”.This term/language defines a Jew living in Italy or Germany primarily as belonging to the category of Jews and not as an individual Jew who belongs to the category of Italiens, Germans, or Europeans in general.
The association with the group/category of Jews is a matter of self-identification in this case, or there would be no point to the entire discussion. As for “primarily belonging to the category of Jews”, that is your interpretation. My understanding and use of the description “European Jews” was neutral, placing no particular emphasis on either attribute. Whether European (or Italian or German) Jews see themselves primarily as one or the other or both equally significant or insignificant to their identities as a whole is individual and not for me to define.
@ Shmuel
Adjective. Noun.
@ Shmuel
Yes, you make valid distinctions.
@ LeaNder
“It’s not that you never attacked me. Remember, when the “libertarian Christian America” Ed, the “editor” was still around?”
No. Refresh my memory.
Shmuel -
“The association with the group/category of Jews is a matter of self-identification”
—————-
Yes, but the problem is that the Jewish ‘category’ is simultaniously a religious community and an ethnic group/people. How do you identify as a Jew?
The late head of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, Ignatz Bubis (he died in 1999 and was burried in Israel), used this definition, “self-identification”:
- “I am a German citizen of Jewish faith.”
That was a smart (but somewhat deceptive) way to put it. I liked Bubis,
although he was a notorious real estate speculator in Frankfurt.
“I am a German citizen of Jewish faith.”
The is an updated version of the classic German-Jewish/Jewish-German definition of “German of the Mosaic faith” (much reviled in my Israeli high school history classes).
Interesting, you liked Ignatz Bubis. My absolute favorite so far was Paul Spiegel.
Why deceptive?
But while we are in Frankfurt, mentally, and since I noticed you didn’t like Adorno, what do you think about your Frankfurt co-citizen Daniel Cohn-Bendit?
Explain. Did you have any class mates with parents or grandparents that left Germany under the Nazis? Or would they feel the same about the terms Pole, Czech, Dutch of the Mosaic faith?
Ahh, I think I understand, it’s the term “Mosaic faith”? They used that over here sometimes, also other terms like e.g., Hebrew = Hebräer?
Explain. Did you have any class mates with parents or grandparents that left Germany under the Nazis? Or would they feel the same about the terms Pole, Czech, Dutch of the Mosaic faith?
As a matter of fact some of my classmates did have parents/grandparents who fled Germany in the 30s (one in particular comes to mind; his grandparents were beneficiaries of the “Ha’avarah”), but that wasn’t the issue. The issue was the particular German-Jewish (or Jewish-German, for Klaus and GL, but if you start analysing the hyphen I will just give up) foolishness and short-sightedness in thinking they could ever be fully accepted as Germans. Of course the scorn and contempt applied to Jews of any nationality who thought they could assimilate or modify their behaviour and beliefs to suit the tastes and sensibilities of their non-Jewish neighbours, but German Jews (or Jewish Germans) were considered emblematic.
The fact that they couldn’t even say the word “Jew” – preferring the apparent affectation (whether a correct linguistic interpretation or not) “Germanim benei dat Moshe” – made it even easier to mock.
Are you familiar with Arnold Zweig’s Judenzählung vor Verdun?
I understand, I had the same inhibition, the word seemed enormously tainted by the Nazis, they reduced it to a term of abuse. What helped me to reflect this and similar matters was an encounter on an H-list with a lady with a Nazi family background older than me, who partly grew up under the Nazis. She “only” learned” about the Holocaust when she went to England after the war, in her late teen early twenties. She spread curious misinformation about Germany, e.g. told list members that when papers report about criminal cases over here in Germany they always tell their readers when the defendant or convict is Jewish, which is utter nonsense in post war Germany. You can’t even report the family name according to our media laws–they only can use abbreviations–same with judgments.
Among other things she lectured about the political correct usage of “non-Jewish Germans” versus “Jewish Germans”. She proudly reported that she had attacked the head of a German institution in the States who dared to publish a book with the title: Jews and Germans share a long history, or something close. According to her, it of course should have been called: German Jews and German non-Jews share a long history. She was very proud she shocked the head of the institution into the realization of his hidden antisemitism in front of the audience during the book’s presentation. ;)
I haven’t read much by Zweig, thanks for the hint. …
The Israeli scholar Shulamit Volkov discovered the history of her father after he had died. Highly interesting, if I remember correctly initially he even pondered about a future under the Nazis after having listened to Hitler in Berlin. It feels strange, and I may be wrong, i read it quite some time ago, but yes I think it was that extreme. She found the correspondence of her parents after he was dead. There is of course more than a grain of truth in the response of your classmates. Volkov interview
Zweig was on the German front in October of 1916, when a census was taken, counting Jews on the German front lines and in the rear, etc. The results of the census was never published to my knowledge, and that resulted in speculative fear and paranoia within the German ranks. Zweig’s story was about this incident. Certainly the “counting jews” enhanced the “stab in the back” theory of anti-semites and, conversely, tore a hole in the German assimilation project, in the patriotic Jewish Germans.
Zweig’s life and work covers a lot: link to en.wikipedia.org
He went from German front line soldier in WW1 to Anti-Nazi during their rise, to lefty Zionist; he became disillusioned with Zionism after he went to Israel, ended up in what became soviet East Germany.
In Zweig’s story, the census is taken not of living Jewish soldiers, but of the dead, who line up and declare their respective identities: “of the Mosaic confession”, “Israelite”, “German of the Jewish faith”, “yes, a Jew”.
I find this much shorter summary of Zweig the man maybe more compelling: link to encyclopedia.com
Thanks Citizen, I found it meanwhile. Short story published in 1916, he later expanded his experience into a novel.
For whatever reason, Arnold Zweig triggered three names, Lessing, Feuchtwanger, a close friend, and Karl Krauss, who if I remember correctly wasn’t too fond of Zweig. But then Krauss was against WWI from the very start. Something that always felt like clairvoyance to me amidst the whole collective war fever.
Highly interesting context. The Jews and the military, France, Germany, Russia. My memories of the struggle of Jewish WWI veterans all the way to the Nazis is really vague. All I remember is that they formed associations in Germany and Austria.
@ Shmuel
Thanks for the info.
I found it meanwhile
Thanks, LeaNder. Here’s the exact link – far right-hand column: link to compactmemory.de
@ Shmuel, LeaNder,
As a result of researching Zweig, I came across this:
A review of Jacqueline Rose’s The Last Resistance, a 2007 collection of her speeches and articles in, e.g., LRB & NYRB. I urge all regular Mondoweiss commenters and Phil Weiss himself to read the section on “the non-Jewish Jew.” This is because it address themes that pop up here in Phil’s more personal posts and then, in the comment section, and by both Zionist and Anti-Zionist commenters, including the various faces of Zionism and whether they are all addressed adequately, the ultimate bipolar take on Zionism/Israel’s accomplishments, or not, means versus ends at bottom—and, inter alia, , though it raises the question, it does not address whether any blood/ethnic Jew is more a Jew, even a totally secular one, when compared to any Gentile convert to Judaism, no matter how ardent.
link to dissentmagazine.org
Thanks Shmuel, I sometimes don’t know how to link directly with these type of sites, but I thought nobody would be interested anyway. ;)
What comes to mind is the debate between Judith Butler and Micha Brumlik, from Frankfurt, in the Berlin Jewish museum. One of the question was if Judith saw gender related issues in the Jewish state. The larger defamation theme of the Jewish soldier, including the endeavors to prove the prejudice–and strictly I have a huge problem with it in most cases I probably would be a deserter myself, why should I have died for Kaiser Wilhelm, Adolf or any other warlords?–But seriously, how is that larger topic, or theme, related to the apparent masculinity of the Israeli state?
Someone asked somewhere here on MW, not too long ago for the translation of an article on Bibi’s UN speech in the weekly Friday, a good paper but not an outstanding article. To translate the above Butler – Brumlik exchange would be a much more interesting endeavor. Do you think Lefty and Klaus could be enlisted in a translation project? But my mind is further already. Adam and Phil or you? have to record the translation. I hate subtitles. Judith of course mainly speaks “American” English and the little German she interjects could be subtitled. ;)
“Blame my mother, she is responsible for my core ethics not the German state, also responsible for some of my hypersensitivities, by the way.”…LeaNder
The truth is unlike Germany Lefty and citizen, you use this blog mainly to talk about ‘yourself’ and dredge up obscure literature on Jews and Germany and drone on and on about it.
No one can tell what you are because your esoteric intellectual and literary pretences are confusing .
Who can forget you expending 3000 words on the definition of ‘nationalism’ and insisting the one in your German dictionary is the only right one.
This site is about Israel-I/P and the US…present day…..get with the program or go join some historical literary guild or go pay a psychoanalyst to listen to you sort out your hypersensitivities.
Lea,
(I know that’s not your first name but anyway) -
I hesitate to answer your question on Ignatz Bubis because of your idiotic and arrogant comment to Lefty:
- “revenge”,” inquisitors”, and to top that: “you never had a single Jewish (girl)friend?” – Go and see your father confessor.
Shmuel,
– The terms “Jewish faith” and “Mosaic faith”
As far as I know, the term “Mosaic” was used in official documents and in the census from the 19th century on to denote the religion of someone. It had more the connotation of religion than the term Jewish.
————————————————————————-
To say: “I am a German citizen of the Jewish faith” sidesteps the question of ethnicity. To be of the Jewish faith IS to belong to the Jewish people.
Strictly speaking: A German or Italien can’t be of the Jewsih faith. In case he concerts to Judaism he simultaniously becomes a member of the Jewish people and is no longer a German or Italien (though a German or Italien citizen).
That’s why the term “a Jewish German/Italien” is nonsense from a Jewish point of view and that’s why Bubis (the former head of the German Jews) used the ethnically neutral term “German citizen”.
I urge all regular Mondoweiss commenters and Phil Weiss himself to read the section on “the non-Jewish Jew.”
I couldn’t disagree more. The author of the review is so obviously hostile to Rose’s views (despite his attempts to compliment her on some of her prose and the “touching” essay on her sister) as to make his representation of them practically worthless.
On the subject of “settler converts”, Taxi has explained to me in the past that although even a pedigreed descendant of ancient Judeans would have no right to displace the indigenous people of Palestine, it is particularly irksome when even the dubious Zionist claim itself doesn’t pan out.
When the Zionist in question is not even the possible descendant of converts some time in the distant past, but a direct and recent convert herself – and an extreme “ethnic” nationalist at that (living as a member of the dominant group in an apartheid reality) – it just makes things all the more outrageous and offensive.
A German or Italien can’t be of the Jewsih faith. In case he concerts to Judaism he simultaniously becomes a member of the Jewish people and is no longer a German or Italien (though a German or Italien citizen).
Wow. You really are “playing devil’s advocate” here – for Johann Fichte!
@ Klaus:
“I am a German citizen of the Jewish faith” sidesteps the question of ethnicity. To be of the Jewish faith IS to belong to the Jewish people. That’s why the term “a Jewish German” is nonsense from a Jewish point of view.
In my understanding, the term “German” is short for “German citizen(ship)”. As far as I am concerned, ethnicity is a pretty useless word. Citizenship is what matters. I associate myself with the people who have the same citizenship as me.
Jewish German = German citizen of the Jewish faith
German Lefty wrote:
Amen. This is how things are supposed to work in the modern Western democratic world. We are civic nationalists, not ethnic or religious nationalists.
This important distinction is lost on many Zionists. (Let’s be frank — on ALL Zionists.)
that’s my ultimate core, American. I should not judge anybody but myself. Looked at differently ultimately I cannot say anything but about myself, which if you like it or not includes “the German part” of my being.
My core interest was always the reflection of politics on the single human being, beyond ideologies. If you start to speak about what it feels like to you, you occasionally have an echo, or you realize there is somebody else that really says, fuck these politics, that is what it feels like to me. I don’t care about if it fits perfectly into any actionable political plan. Politics start with every single human being, and the way they treat each other.
I am no pragmatic, I am no American, just act and all will work out fine. When I am talking about myself, it means: this is what it feels like to me, what does it feel like to you? I am a human body living in specific circumstances that shape me, I can only read you by carefully reading myself, and I can be mistaken. Is there another way?
American, thanks anyway for this critique. I take pretencs seriously, I suspect myself of pretentiousness occasionally, but I also know that this pretentiousness may in fact be an inner hesitation: Please no easy and fast conclusions, no matter how attractive they may feel. Pretenses may be summoning somebody’s spirits or works to disspell something that feels threatening to me.
Esoteric? I do not have big antennae for it, spiritual antennae maybe; I like wit and the less trodden roads.
Literary pretenses, yes maybe, but ultimately nothing but a voice deep down inside that warns of easy conclusions and the resulting solutions, handicapped by a rather mediocre mind. …
Sean McBride, at one point our much longer exchanges was so kind to tell me that my English had in fact gotten better over the years. A minor part of why I am here is the English language, a deeper part is the politics and theories surrounding the latest performance of the “Jewish question”.
I am absolutely sure, I would never have used a “German dictionary definition” to lecture Americans about nationalism, that’s just not me. I do not have much nationalist pride, I may in fact have used the “nationalist core theory” of _Roger Griffins somewhere in an attempt to sort out the many questions I was catapulted into. I am not sure, if it still is the case, but it made quite a bit of sense at the time. Although I also own a book where Griffin’s thesis is attacked from every perspective including our own Nolte’s.
I’ll shut up.
Well Shmuel -
Fichte, a 19th century funny German, was of the opinion that:
‘The Jews’ heads have to be cut off and replaced by German heads.’
———————————————————————————–
But you are the authority on the matter. Aren’t I right that someone who converts to Judaism becomes a member of the Jewish people and thus enters the covenant with God? God didn’t strike his covenant with the Germans or the Italiens at Mt. Sinai.
As far as I know, when someone wants to convert, ‘he applies for membership in the Jewish people.’ That’s the official version, at least in Orthodoxy.
you prove me wrong:
Look American, let’s make a deal. You prove me wrong, in other words that I indead used a German dictionary definition, and I will shut up forever. After all one should never say never, would be interesting to see the context, if it ever happened that is.
Leander,
I appreciate that you are writing from your inner voice and experience — in American terms, I might describe you as an Emersonian — and that is very much a compliment in my book.
I get the impression (and I may be completely off-base here) that you and German Lefty perhaps represent a generational divide in contemporary German culture.
Older generations of Germans are still wrestling with guilt over the Holocaust — and justifiably and understandably so. Younger generations of Germans are self-confident, optimistic, forward-looking, guilt-free and are building a highly successful Germany. Because of Germany’s nightmare experience with messianic ethnic nationalism during the Nazi era, they are probably not going to look favorably on expressions of messianic ethnic nationalism anywhere in the world (including in Israel).
When harangued or harassed by pro-Israel activists, younger Germans probably won’t hesitate to push back hard.
(This is a flight of fancy: I know nothing about the age or detailed background of either you or German Lefty. :))
I know, and I did it absolutely deliberately. But interesting you respond.
if I may use Mark Ellis’ technique:
maybe we should add here: because they have been indoctrinated with the idea of collective responsibility. Lets not ever allow anyone to complicate matter if ideas that there may in fact be some kind of responsibility.
I am tired, maybe I should have put “irony alert” in front of my last passage. The last sentence should read:
Lets not ever allow anyone to complicate matters with the idea that ideally nationalist or ethnic or however defined groups of human beings should in fact bear responsibilities for what they cause. No matter how powerful they are.
Why is the West so unable to enforce this simple principle post Nürnberg?
@ seanmcbride:
I get the impression that you and German Lefty perhaps represent a generational divide in contemporary German culture.
I think that you are right.
Here the link to a German survey again:
link to globalpost.com
According to a poll commissioned by German magazine Stern, 59 percent of the 1,002 people asked perceived Israel as aggressive, up from 49 percent in 2009. Just 36 percent had a very positive view of the Jewish state, 9 percent less than three years ago. Meanwhile 70 percent believed Israel pursued its interests without regard for other countries. Only 21 percent agreed with the statement that Israel respects human rights. And 60 percent said that Germany had no special obligation to Israel. [33 percent do believe that Germany has a special obligation to Israel.] 65 percent wanted Germany to recognize a Palestinian state. [18 percent reject an independent Palestinian state.] 13 percent questioned Israel’s right to exist.
@ LeaNder:
If I were a German, then I would be glad that non-Germans ask me about Israel so often, because I could take these opportunities to disassociate myself from Israel and to make clear that this foreign country does NOT act in my name.
That doesn’t make any sense. Israel does not claim to be an (ethnic) German state.
However, what do most Germans do? Instead of condemning Israel and her crimes, they DEFEND them.
That’s not true. Look at the poll numbers that I provided. Pro-Israel people are in the minority.
I did it absolutely deliberately.
Any explanation for why you are so bitchy?
German Lefty,
Thanks for confirming my vague impressions with hard numbers. I think this is a healthy development for Germany — time to move on and focus on creative work.
Anton Newcombe of Brian Jonestown Massacre recently remarked that Berlin is one of the most enlightened world cities in which to reside, the least fascist, and highly hospitable to artists and creative people. Germany is now operating on all cylinders (preferably Porsche :)).
@ seanmcbride
I think this is a healthy development for Germany — time to move on
Yes. Now we just need to convince our politicians to stop the brownnosing. They “worry” about the fact that Germans view Israel so negatively.
@ Lefty
Sean said in a comment to LeaNder:
“I get the impression … that you and German Lefty perhaps represent a generational divide in contemporary German culture.”
——————–
That is exactly so. Lea is my generation (65 plus), you are below 30.
Most children of that generation had a polical, moral problem with their parents about the Nazi era. Lea told me some years ago that she and her father didn’t talk to each other for a whole year because of that.
I didn’t have this problem because I didn’t care. I was interested in rock ‘n’ roll and girls and not what my father had done during WWII. I only learned that he had been a member of the NSDAP after his death when my mother told me that, but she added – sort of comical – “but he wasn’t a Nazi”.
@ LeaNder
RE: “Why is the West so unable to enforce this simple principle post Nürnberg?”
I don’t know about the whole West, but in USA, as must be clear to you as a regular reader of this blog, our politicians are bribed by the Israel Lobby which imposed a Zionist litmus test on every elected official and wannabe. Even if there’s only a handful of Jews in a state, Zionist money and handlers enter into political campaigns. The main media is complicit as those organs don’t discuss the issue. It took Sheldon Adelson, declaring in public his sole Israel agenda and pouring many millions into Newt’s GOP campaign for POTUS contender for the main media to even mention how a single rich and focused individual can effectively influence public policy more than hundreds of voters–and yet Adelson’s self-declared Israel First agenda has never been discussed in our main media. The Israel Lobby is never mentioned in US main media, which at most, and only very recently, mentions “the Jewish vote” in relation to which contender is said to be “throwing Israel under the bus.”
It’s not the Jewish vote, but big Zionist moneybags, here in plutocratic America (and a complicit press), that is the reason the Nurnberg principles are not enforced, but instead, totally ignored when it comes to Israel’s conduct. In fact, the US copied Israel when it preemptively attacked Iraq, and the drums are beating for a repeat with Iran.
Perhaps you can tell us why Germany goes along?
When harangued or harassed by pro-Israel activists, I respond similar although surely not the same way as Klaus, Lefty or you.
I thought you knew my age, Sean, I don’t keep it secret, really. I am born on March, 31, 1950, so yes, close to Klaus 65+. To grow up in the ruins around leaves memory traces, it makes you curious about what happened.
The problems with my father, Klaus alludes to, had nothing to do with his past as a party member, it had to do with his demand that I don’t get myself into troubles in high school, don’t ask questions and join the building up of a successful Germany again. Or care only about my future career. I was forbidden to enter the city’s archives again, when I found out that my headmaster had substituted the former post war headmaster because of the guys Nazi past, but had immediately hired him again as a “Oberstudienrat” a senior teacher. There were curious information channels back to him with the apparent results.
My father was too young to be a party member, but he went through the Nazi Hitler Youth brainwashing. He was 18 when the war ended, old enough for the last draft for Hitler’s Germania, the ultimately aim of his training in the HY. It’s much easier to talk with him about it now than it was in my youth. … He wanted to forget and move on.
How do you explain that Klaus and Lefty are often much closer to each other than to me in a purely generational model? At least that is what it feels like to me.
I’ll now obey American’s objection and shut up for a longer time again. He may well be correct I am much too egocentric for this list, just as my sympathy for the left carries a strong liberal strain and is modified by my acceptance of basic ethic rules. From that perspective Lefty’s suggestion that she could somehow influence German Jews into what to think, feels indeed somewhat “juvenile”. It is also a complete ignorance of their own struggles with the topic.
Would I ever have assumed I have to educate every American about the fact that the Iraq war was wrong? Obviously nonsense.
Lefty -
One last note on: “Jewish German = German citizen of the Jewish faith”
Being Jewish means to belong to a ‘HOLY PEOPLE’. (It’s a transcendental definition of a people – over and above descent and kinship – constituted as holy by the covenant of the ‘children of Israel’ with God at Mt. Sinai).
The concept of being Jewish requiers the concept of a people.
- Shmuel knows better than I do but he doesn’t respond to my point that converting to Judaism is ‘applying for membership in the holy Jewish people.’
Leander,
I hope you continue to post here — you provide an original perspective on these issues that is the product of a great deal of difficult thought and the processing of complicated emotional information in the German context. American has a fairly large ego, too, which I am sure he would readily admit. :)
Interesting point here:
Perhaps they are not easily pushed around by ethnic and religious nationalist movements that are not their own? Perhaps they have a low tolerance for bullshit?
But I did detect a generational difference between Klaus and German Lefty early on — GL’s voice sounds very contemporary to me, very 2012. I imagine (I don’t know for sure) that many young or younger Germans sound this way. I feel comfortable with the voice and I especially like the no-nonsense clear thinking, which is the very antithesis of the casuistry and tawdry propaganda that one often finds on the Zionist side of the debates here (I am thinking at the moment of hophmi, giladg and a few others).
Some people use languge to cut through to the truth; others use it to obfuscate, manipulate and destroy the truth. I value direct and honest language and really dislike bullshitters. German Lefty’s comments caught my attention right away for their force and clarity.
I think contemporary Germans want to get on with their lives and do what they do best: make great things with the highest standards of craft. And they probably have a greater appreciation of modern Western democratic values at this point in history than many Americans, who have stood passively by while the neocons have delivered one assault after another on the U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights and basic American democratic values.
- Shmuel knows better than I do but he doesn’t respond to my point that converting to Judaism is ‘applying for membership in the holy Jewish people.’
Too much effort to establish definitions for just about every word in your premise, without even getting started on their ramifications. I’ll pass this time, thanks.
Sean,
“I did detect a generational difference between Klaus and German Lefty early on.”
I detected a difference in the proficiency of the English language between Lefty and me early on and I wondered, ‘where the hell did this gay girl from the ex-communist East German countryside get her perfect English from?’
I still wonder and always wanted to ask her, but I forgot.
The Jews themselves (by which I mean the mainstream Jewish religious tradition) throughout the ages have defined themselves as a chosen and holy nation and mystical peoplehood — as a nation separate from and superior to “the nations” among which they have lived. I don’t think this is even a matter of controversy or dispute. And contemporary Zionism (especially religious Zionism) is situated firmly within that exceptionalist (one might even say supremacist) ideology.
Shmuel,
You told me I should turn to a different teacher of Judaism than Peter Novick – I turned to you, now you let me down. But I understand, this blog is not a Jewish seminary.
@ seanmcbride:
A nation separate from and superior to “the nations”. I don’t think this is even a matter of controversy or dispute. And contemporary Zionism is situated firmly within that exceptionalist (one might even say supremacist) ideology.
This reminds me of something: link to thechicagocouncil.org
Page 9:
Percentage who believe the United States has a unique character that makes it the greatest country in the world or who believe every country is unique and the United States is no greater than other nations.
The greatest country in the world -> 70 %
No greater than other nations -> 29 %
Republicans (85%) assert that the United States is the greatest more often than Democrats (65%) or Independents (63%).
@ LeaNder:
Lefty’s suggestion that she could somehow influence German Jews into what to think, feels indeed somewhat “juvenile”.
Oh, really? Wanting to convince people to stop supporting human rights violators is juvenile? Besides, stop dissing me for my age, you old bag.
It is also a complete ignorance of their own struggles with the topic.
What struggles? Shall I respect international law and human rights or not? This question is very easy to answer. A total no-brainer! People who struggle with such a basic question don’t deserve sympathy. They are homicidal maniacs who should get detention and treatment.
Would I ever have assumed I have to educate every American about the fact that the Iraq war was wrong? Obviously nonsense.
Yeah, right! Let’s not speak up when other people break the law. *facepalm*
I’ll now [...] shut up for a longer time again.
Great!
German Lefty,
Yup, there is a strong strain of exceptionalism and supremacism in American history and culture, some of it biblical in its origins, some of it nakedly racist. That cultural exceptionalism and supremacism has led to the commission of many human rights crimes (including genocide and slavery) in the past.
Neoconservatives are exploiting these impulses in American culture to the hilt on behalf of Israeli and Zionist objectives. This game is not nearly over yet. One shudders to contemplate what will be climax of this narrative. It will probably involve the use of nuclear weapons.
Lefty -
America IS exceptional, I believe that also. And the Jewish people IS exceptional. – But they are exceptional in a very different, contrasting way:
- America’s concept is “e pluribus unum” – everybody can be American, regardless of ethnic descent; actually, the whole world could be American.
- The exceptional concept of the Jewish people is: You have to be of Jewish descent (or pay at least 50,000 Dollars to become a Jew). And the whole world can’t – by definition – be Jewish because the concept of chosenness doen’t make sense if everybody is chosen.
To put it simple (I can’t remember who said it):
- You can BECOME an American but you have to BE a Jew.
@ Klaus
Well, the word “exceptional” has different meanings. From Merriam Webster:
1) forming an exception : rare
2) better than average : superior
3) deviating from the norm: as
a) having above or below average intelligence
b) physically disabled
I, too, believe that the USA is exceptional, but not in a good way. For example, the USA is exceptional in that it’s the only Western country that still has death penalty.
Klaus,
Yes — her English is pitch perfect, better than that of many Americans, her mind cuts through crap like a surgical knife, and she is full of fresh and high-spirited energy. I dig it. :)
But perhaps Germans should be careful not to succumb to too much pride despite (for many of them) their impressive talents and forceful natural energy. We know how that can go. Show some compassion and generosity to others who may be a little slower. Being right in this world is not enough. Being right in the wrong way can get one into deep trouble.
@ Klaus:
where the hell did this gay girl from the ex-communist East German countryside get her perfect English from?
1) I am bi, not gay.
2) My English is far from perfect.
3) Believe it or not, but we have schools in the eastern part of Germany, too.
>> … I wondered, ‘where the hell did this gay girl from the ex-communist East German countryside get her perfect English from?’
Curious: Why would German Lefty’s sexual orientation factor into both your private and public musings about her language skills?
eljay, you’ve got to admit itt’s pretty clever of Klaus to try and switch the attention from his outrageous idea that if one Jew or one Jewish book ever said something, all Jews are responsible for it, to German Lefty’s personal characteristics.
Sorry to point it out, but what you get with your Klauswurst is a side order of classic German anti-Semitism. Mark that: According to Klaus, anything he has ever heard of, or read of, or frankly, just made up about one Jew or any group of Jews must be true for all Jews, and each Jew must defend and justify it, or apologise for it. Classic. I was, for a while, pretty incensed at him, but then I realised, not to bright to begin with, desperate to keep the attention off, well, the you-know-who’s and their acts, and now senile. The guy should be sent to the junker-pile.
Lefty -
“Believe it or not, but we have schools in the eastern part of Germany, too.”
I see – but still, you are exceptional. There got to be something in your blood or in the air of the East German countryside that makes the difference. I had lots of students who had spent a year at an American high school but weren’t the best English speakers in class. Same with my daughter who spent a year in Reno, Nevada.
————————
- I pointed to the difference and contrast between American and Jewish exceptionalism. But here is an affinity: both have their roots in religion.
“In God we trust” it says on the American Dollar.
@ seanmcbride:
But perhaps Germans should be careful not to succumb to too much pride despite (for many of them) their impressive talents and forceful natural energy. We know how that can go.
Pride? Who talks about pride? No person other than yourself. It’s the Yanks who are obsessed with pride.
Besides, whether people are prone to feelings of superiority or not depends mainly on their character traits and possibly on their upbringing, not on their nationality or ethnicity.
“Ahh, I think I understand, it’s the term “Mosaic faith”?”
What do you know about the Mosaic faith? Can you imagine being chosen to select, position, cement, and grout and re-grout throughout the ages? It wasn’t so bad during the great age of painting, but now that there’s photography us mosaic artists get hardly any portrait commissions at all. And don’t get me started on digital processing of images!
@ Mooser:
What you get with your Klauswurst is a side order of classic German anti-Semitism. According to Klaus, anything he has ever heard of, or read of, or frankly, just made up about one Jew or any group of Jews must be true for all Jews, and each Jew must defend and justify it, or apologise for it.
Oh, really? When did Klaus say these things? Examples please.
German Lefty,
All nations and peoples are capable of exhibiting overweening pride (even messianic pride) in their own distinctive ways, and when they do they often go off the rails and pay the price. Be confident, but don’t be too confident. You may lose your shirt.
Mooser -
You got an anti-anti-Semite stereotype.
I used the word “gay” primarily as gay when I said, “this gay girl [German Lefty] from the ex-communist East German countryside” – the whole sentence is a joke.
(I didn’t say “lesbian” because that doesn’t sound gay.)
“Klauswurst is a side order of classic German anti-Semitism.”
—————–
Mooser – I like that line. That’s classic Mooser.
>> I used the word “gay” primarily as gay when I said, “this gay girl [German Lefty] from the ex-communist East German countryside” – the whole sentence is a joke.
Hmmm…German humour’s not quite as funny as Mooser humour. IMO only, of course, and YMMV. :-)
“classic German anti-Semitism”
————————————————
Mooser – you may even agree with that classic anti-Semitism when applied
to America toaday. Shmuel mentioned Johann Fichte, an early 19th century gay German nationalist who wanted to turn the Jews into Germans and said:
- ‘The Jews’ heads have to be cut off and replaced by German heads.’
Apply Fichte’s idea to the American Jewish/Zionist neocons and you get:
- ‘Their Zionist heads have to be cut off and replaced by American heads.’
Of course, that’s a metaphor – but don’t you agree as an American?
It may be unfair to lump Fichte in with the likes of Von Treitschke, but he shared the same basic opposition to granting civil rights to Jews unless they could be completely assimilated – which could only be accomplished if one were to “cut off all their heads in one night and replace them with others in which there is not a single Jewish idea”.
Nice of you to replace Fichte’s “not a single Jewish idea” with “not a single Jewish[/Zionist neocon] idea”, but your approach would still seem to be more in keeping with Fichte’s 19th-century conception of the nation than Mooser’s (or German Lefty’s) notions of citizenship.
Obviously, that’s why I choose to provoke her to take a closer look at the load of unreflected German historical intellectual raw data Klaus Bloemker carries. I may have done it badly and I surely have no time to pay the overall attention the subject deserves. (that’s why I really have to shut up now;) But the statement stood out to me and troubled me. I can also see that looked at superficially, it could be considered a basic position of MW, but I somehow doubt it is that easy.
I respect your analytical approach, as you know, were we met it meant reason compared to a more or less complete surrender to mythology, but from my perspective it also forces you occasionally to rigidly uphold your special equations against data that may not fit so well.
I haven’t paid close attention to any of them, my exchanges with Richard Witty, now gone, exhausted me. But I have to admit I might even basically feel sorry for both considering Hasbarah’s first target is obviously the inside community and only as a close second the outside world. …
Henry Miller, Black Spring
Emersonian? There is a nexus between him and European Romantics. But yes maybe: Emerson, Thoreau, Whitman, Ginsberg, but surely also e.g. Shakespeare, who from my perspective complicates easy ideologies, or assumptions taken for granted.
“casuistry and tawdry propaganda”? Well casuistry my well be the antithesis of your approach, at least partly.
From my perspective Shakespeare is a casuist. He carefully dissects the general rules of his time and confronts them with reality of the stage or human interaction.
Could my old love for the Henry Miller citation above in fact show that I have a strong casuist streak myself? Made worse by my mediocre mind, and the fear I could miss something essential? ;)
Moose, It wasn’t so bad during the great age of painting, yes if we have the same American time frame in mind, quite true, but also interesting if you look closer into biographies of painters and critiques. Don’t despair, dear. ;)
I come back once I improved my English, not easy for an old bag.
fill in the “where” for “were” and a “may” for a “my” and anything else that escaped my attention. Now that is definitively my last comment for a while.
Shmuel -
“Mooser’s (or German Lefty’s) notions of citizenship.”
Mooser has a notion of citizenship?
I didn’t know that. I thought all he is concerned about is his notions of Jewishness and anti-Semites.
—————–
Thanks for getting the Fichte quote right. Actually, getting the Jewish ideas out of their heads was also the educational programm of the 19th century German Jews. Much to the chagrin of the Rabbis.
“In Zweig’s story, the census is taken not of living Jewish soldiers, but of the dead, who line up and declare their respective identities: “of the Mosaic confession”, “Israelite”, “German of the Jewish faith”, “yes, a Jew”.”
And they say Jews couldn’t assimilate in Germany! Now, I ask you, have you ever seen such a true Teutonic passion for recordkeeping?
“Hmmm…German humour’s not quite as funny as Mooser humour. IMO only, of course, and YMMV. :-)”
Humor aside, how many goddam times is Klaus going to pull this ‘I was only joking’ crap. Look at his archive. Over and over, he makes outrageous statement tieing “the Jews” to some obscure quote or person or somegoddam thing nobody has ever heard of. When he’s called on his thinking, he retreats to his “German humor” position. The German word for it, I believe, is putz.
The German word for it, I believe, is putz.
No. “Putz” is a German word, but it means something totally different.
link to dict.cc
“I know European Jews who do not want to deal with the subject of Israel at all. They neither criticise nor defend Israel or Israeli policies, and do not feel that they should be held responsible or even expected to take a position, simply because they are Jews. I think this view is both understandable and defensible.”
ROTFLMSJAO! Yeah, I think you would, wouldn’t you! Why, I bet you might even feel they are entitled to this view. Ah, Shmuel, you are a riot.
Mooser -
You seem to know my comments – as far as my ‘humor’ is concerned –
better than I do.
My joke on Lefty was not “an outrageous statement tieing ‘the Jews’ to some obscure … goddam thing.”
It was an outrageously prejudiced statement about the “ex-communist East German countryside” – how the hell is it possible that someone from that backward Hinterwald east of the Berlin Wall can speak propper English?
I forgot – and Lefty told me – that they have schools there ,too.
“Now that establishment has to deal with the consequences of its own actions.”
Apparently the benefits of Zionism (to Jews not in Israel) are so great that not a single Jewish denomination, or even a single congregation (? be glad to be proved wrong on this) will renounce it, or disassociate itself from the project. And of course, all we get now is the lovely-dream-gone-wrong schtik along with assurances that the all-encompassing ethicalness of Judaism will cure it, despite being nowhere in evidence up to now.
They will go down with the ship rather than acknowledge that Jews could fail so miserably, or that the ascent from Holocaust to Holy Land, making the desert boom, wasn’t real.
- “Shmuel knows better than I do but he doesn’t respond to my point that converting to Judaism is ‘applying for membership in the holy Jewish people.”
Look, Klaus, it’s just too complicated to explain why we will never accept anyone for conversion who we could accept as a convert. It’s a by-law to the never-join-any-club-that-will-accept-you-as-a-member covenant.
Anyway, Shmuel could give you chapter and verse, if he cared to.
I mean really, converting to Judaism! C’mon now! Do you have any idea how long it would take a person who wasn’t born into it to understand that the food tastes like poison and the portions are too small? Or the ineffable indifferences between Pinsk and Minsk? How to distinguish betwee what is “good for the Jews” or “bad for the Jews”?
Don’t waste your time folks, is my advice. Try Scientology instead.
“Being Jewish means to belong to a ‘HOLY PEOPLE’. “
Oh wow, do I owe Krauss a big apology! I should grovel before him, beg his forgiveness, and say I’m not fit to touch the hem of his comment-box.
Only a 15point difference in IQ could explain why Klaus believes that Holy People puffery, and how we put it over on him.
“But I understand, this blog is not a Jewish seminary.”
Right you are, Klaus. It’s more like a monastary or a convent, if you ask me. I was hoping Phil would set up an anti-Zionist dating service.
Mooser, you are right on that count -
“Apparently the benefits of Zionism (to Jews not in Israel) are so great …”
Yes: “Without Israel Jews in the Diaspora would again be fair game”
——————————————————————————————————
That was the headline of an interview with someone (Michel Friedman) from the Central Council of Jews in Germany a few years ago.
“Mooser, you are right on that count -”
Like you would know, you ancient dumpkopf. You just scented something which might be discreditable to Jews, so you jumped on it. What the hell is your problem anyway, besides guilt? Not to mention complete obtuseness when dealing with the English language. Oh my God, what if it’s not, and that is simply the way one thinks in German, so to speak. Scary thought.
“how the hell is it possible that someone from that backward Hinterwald east of the Berlin Wall can speak propper (sic) English?
@ Klaus:
how the hell is it possible that someone from that backward Hinterwald east of the Berlin Wall can speak propper English?
So, my English is “propper”!?
By the way, I wish you a happy Day of German Unity!
link to bild.de
” … speak propper (sic) English?” – I see, isn’t that a humorous line of mine?
“never-join-any-club-that-will-accept-you-as-a-member” – Mooser
—————————————————————————————-
Joining the Jewish club has another drawbacck:
- It’s a club from which there is no resignation.
>> Joining the Jewish club has another drawbacck:
>> – It’s a club from which there is no resignation.
Sure there is: If a Jewish person no longer wants to be Jewish, all he has to do is say “I’m no longer Jewish” and he’s no longer Jewish. There is no just or moral way to force that person to “be Jewish”.
(I remember someone telling me once that, even though I was now atheist, I would always be Roman Catholic because I had been baptised into the faith. I thought that was rather funny.)
@ Klaus:
That was the headline of an interview with someone (Michel Friedman) from the Central Council of Jews in Germany a few years ago.
Can you give me the link to that interview?
“Without Israel Jews in the Diaspora would again be fair game”
That doesn’t make any sense. It’s exactly vice versa. Because of Israel, the self-declared “Jewish state”, any Jew is considered fair game for revenge.
Mooser on me:
“something … discreditable to Jews, so you jumped on it.”
“What the hell is your problem anyway, besides guilt?”
“complete obtuseness when dealing with the English language.”
“Oh my God”
“the way one thinks in German”
“Scary thought”
————————————
- Oh Jesus Christ!
Just discovered this text. Written by a German guy in interesting English.
“[T]here are a lot of religious Jews trying to use Jewdom for their [personal advantage]. They want to demand [the freedom to do as they please without having to fear any consequences] by the surely correct hint that Jewish people had to suffer a lot of pain and damages in the past.
So a Jewish woman told me: “If the police stops my car, because I’ve been driving to[o] fast, I will tell the police that I’m Jewish and th[e]n I will not be punished.” I’ve reflected about her opinion. It’s really [terrible] that she has got such an attitude, but why does she telling everybody about it? Is she really thinking to receive positive reactions because of her behaviour?
Well, I don’t want to say that such an attitude will be typical for [all] Jews. [...] But besides them there are a lot of Jews tabooing principially each kind of criticism, especially when the criticism is uttered by Germans. This taboo is relating to criticism against the state of Israel in particular. It will be the most comfort solution at all to call reviewers to be Nazis than to discus about their criticism in a rational way. ”
link to proliberal.com
@ Klaus:
The antler man doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ!
“Without Israel Jews in the Diaspora would be fair game”
- Michel Friedman, vice president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany
——————————————————————————————————————
Lefty -
The interview was in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung on April 7, 2002 and the headline in German read: “Ein Diasporajude ohne Israel ist frei für den Abschuß” – You may google it.
I wrote a letter to the editors saying what you say, that it is the other way round: because of Israel there are attacks on Jews in Germany and Jewish institutions are heavily guarded. For instance: The Jewish school in Frankfurt (it’s not exclusively Jewish) is the only one where you can’t pull up in front of it. When you enter there is a security guard and a metal detector. I once went there to take a look at it. The security guard phoned the secretariat to ask whether he could let me in.
- There was a brawl in downtown Frankfurt between an Arab and a Rabbi.
- There was lately an attack on a Rabbi in Berlin by Arabs.
No one wants the Palestine conflict to be imported to Germany.
But it’s Israel who incites the Muslim immigrants against the Jews.
- Mooser got my comment completely wrong, “what the hell is your problem?” he asked me.
——————————————-
On your article and the story about the Jewish woman and the police:
“a Jewish woman told me: “If the police stops my car, because I’ve been driving to[o] fast, I will tell the police that I’m Jewish and th[e]n I will not be punished.”
- That’s not as absurd as it sounds. The wife of a good friend of mine who has a Jewish Israeli father (but was brought up by her German mother) told me the same thing: She would tell a policeman that she was Jewish.
@ Klaus:
The wife of a good friend of mine who has a Jewish Israeli father told me the same thing: She would tell a policeman that she was Jewish.
This is really incredible! How can they exploit history? Such a disgraceful behaviour and the special treatment of Jews contribute to anti-Jewish sentiments.
Besides, why is Stephan Kramer allowed to carry a gun in public? If being a member of a minority group entitled you to carry a gun in public, then Germany would probably be like the USA and I’d have to fear for my life whenever I leave the house.
She would tell a policeman that she was Jewish.
Does it actually work?
“The antler man doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ!”
To be honest about it, it depends on what music is playing. You give me Bach, and I believe. You give me Gospel, and I believe. You give me “contemporary Christian” and I start backsliding, big time.
@ Lefty
““Without Israel Jews in the Diaspora would again be fair game” ..Klaus
”That doesn’t make any sense. It’s exactly vice versa. Because of Israel, the self-declared “Jewish state”, any Jew is considered fair game for revenge.”
I think that’s right and there also another element…..in most countries there are “Jewish Organizations” always publically screeching and demanding this, that and the other for Israel all the time….people see that, so it adds to the resentment. IOW, what zionist are doing within those countries probably also makes people think Jews are fair game.
“She would tell a policeman that she was Jewish”
That sort of thing goes on often. Read the NYT on some of the court cases …one guy convicted of tax evasion claimed visions of the holocaust made him hide his money offshore. I’ve seen dozens like that..it usually doesn’t get them off though..LOL
@ Lefty
“It will be the most comfort solution at all to call reviewers to be Nazis than to discus about their criticism in a rational way. ”
I can ‘t help myself..lol.lol. Poor well intentioned guy thinks anyone can have a ‘rational’ discussion with zionist.
Listen, if they call you a nazi, just call them nazis back. LOL
On “Day of German Unity” and East Germans – off topic
Lefty -
The day before yesterday I talked to an Indian South African (I know him for some time). He works at the headquarters of the Deutsche Bank in Frankfurt as a foreign consultant, very high up in the Bank’s hierarchy.
He lived under South African apartheid before he moved to England and has no respect for Isarel. He is a very easy going guy, I met him at a Jazz place.
He works on his project with 8 Germans and told me that the one he likes best was a young man from Rostock, because that guy is very anti-authoritarian and challenges him more often than the others. He likes that.
He asked me whether I think that the East Germans are different.
I thought of you and told him this: West Germany was the legal successor of the Third Reich and took the historical responsibility. Communist East Germany claimed to have nothing to do with that since they were anti-fascists. – In a way, that makes the East Germans less inhibited. He liked that idea.
eljay (whatever that name means), you say:
- “If a Jewish person no longer wants to be Jewish, all he has to do is say
‘I’m no longer Jewish’ and he’s no longer Jewish.’”
- “I had been baptised into the [Catholic] faith.”
———————————————————–
But how does a person (if that person is a male) undo his circumcision?
Circumcision is different from baptism. – Don’t you think so?
The idea of the ritual circumcision is that you can’t resign from the Jewish club.
- “She would tell a policeman that she was Jewish.”
‘Does it actually work?’- Lefty
I don’t think it does work. Look at Michel Friedman and his cocain affair a few years ago. – But that woman also told me that when she was in high school they had a Jewish vice headmaster. Once she had a serious problem but that vice headmaster told her because she had a Jewish father she would get away with it.
>> But how does a person (if that person is a male) undo his circumcision?
Circumcision is different from baptism. – Don’t you think so?
>> The idea of the ritual circumcision is that you can’t resign from the Jewish club.
I’m circumcised. Does that mean someone can come along and make me “be Jewish”? If not, there’s no just or moral reason someone can force an ex-Jew to “be Jewish”.
Jewishness is largely an ethnicity (as much as a religion) and one can’t resign from being a member of an ethnic group. For instance, Italian Americans and Irish Americans can’t resign from being members of particular ethnic categories. Christians, on the other hand, can easily resign from the community of believers in Christianity.
>> eljay (whatever that name means)
Initials: L (el) J (jay).
Yes Sean –
but by convering to Judaism you become a member of that ethnicity (like an adopted child, or ‘reborn’ as a ‘child of Israel’). You stay a member of that family/ethnicity until your death. -So, you can join but you can’t resign.
>> eljay (whatever that name means)
Initials: L (el) J (jay).
—————————
I see – kaybee
>> Jewishness is largely an ethnicity (as much as a religion) and one can’t resign from being a member of an ethnic group. For instance, Italian Americans and Irish Americans can’t resign from being members of particular ethnic categories.
Sure they can. I’m first-generation Canadian, born to an Italian immigrant mother and a Croatian immigrant father. When I was younger, I identified to some extent as Italian-Canadian and Croatian-Canadian. Years ago, however, I resigned from being a member of those particular ethnic categories. There is no just or moral way anyone can force me to “be” either of them.
Same thing applies to Jews. You don’t want to be Jewish anymore? Stop “being Jewish”. There’s no just or moral way anyone can force you to “be Jewish”.
eljay -
What I said is my understanding of the point of view of traditional Judaism and most Jews. As far as I know, they see it that way. Of course, you can’t be forced to belong to Synagogue community or a church or to identify as such and such. But children are instilled with certain beliefs and identities.
>> What I said is my understanding of the point of view of traditional Judaism and most Jews.
Understood. :-)
“To put it simple (I can’t remember who said it):
- You can BECOME an American but you have to BE a Jew.”
Oh, don’t be so modest, Klaus. Go ahead and take credit for it.
To put it simple (I can’t remember who said it):
- You can BECOME an American but you have to BE a Jew.”
——————————————————————————————
Oh, don’t be so modest, Klaus. Go ahead and take credit for it.
- Mooser, I now remember who said it (but I won’t tell you).
It was a German, and the line is “classic German anti-Semitism”.
Isn’t it?
Shmuel writes: “What do I think about the situation in the Occupied Territories? To tell you the truth, I don’t. As I have explained, it’s really not my concern.’”
Would you be equally understanding of a comparable statement about the Holocaust by, say, an American citizen during Europe’s WWII? Why can’t we expect that Jews should feel a responsibility for Zionism, not as Jews but just as human beings?
Would you be equally understanding of a comparable statement about the Holocaust by, say, an American citizen during Europe’s WWII? Why can’t we expect that Jews should feel a responsibility for Zionism, not as Jews but just as human beings?
As human beings, I agree, but the question we are discussing is whether Jews should be held specifically responsible as Jews.
“As human beings, I agree, but the question we are discussing is whether Jews should be held specifically responsible as Jews.”…Shmuel
Are you talking about collective blame? If so, collective blame is in reality a age old practice of the world. No one says it is just or right but it’s usually what happens when a group/country loses to another group/country.
Doesn’t matter if Jews ‘should’ be held responsible or not, they probably would be.
The world of full of ‘collateral damage victims’ and every group, Jews, Germans, Christians, Palestines, etc.,etc. has had them, in I/P we still have them.
Another thing Shumel that we forget…it doesn’t depend on how we see ourselves in regard to some responsibility, it depends on how others see us.
Some people could totally opt out of a group or their country’s leadership and still by their identity or some one else defining them be held responsible.
Not fair but that’s what happens.
Shmuel says: “As human beings, I agree, but the question we are discussing is whether Jews should be held specifically responsible as Jews.”
Taken to its logical extreme, that would be a travesty of justice even if one accepted the inevitability of collective guilt.
First, a good half of all Jews — specifically, the Asian and African ones — had no connection with the foundation of Israel at all. They could have been flown to California and they would have accepted it. Furthermore, most of the remainder generally had the choice between (a) staying in a DP camp and/or a rapidly deteriorating position and (b) going to Israel. It’s a very dubious argument that ‘the Jews’ as a whole bear responsibility for Israel. That doesn’t give them a license to continue the crime, but it does absolve them of any share in the collective responsibility.
Second — and perhaps more importantly — even if Jews committed the actual crime, various gentiles successively enabled it, and continue to enable it. If I — knowing and approving of what you intend — tell you my neighbor won’t be home, and give you a key to his house, when you rob it, I do indeed bear a good deal of the responsibility. Mitt Romney is fully as guilty as Netanyahu, and damned sight more guilty than Phil.
So I think ‘blaming Jews’ as a collective for Israel is a non-starter. We have met the enemy, and he is us. We all did it.
“As human beings, I agree, but the question we are discussing is whether Jews should be held specifically responsible as Jews.”
And thank God the world’s treatment and judgement of the Jews for their Zionist acts will be in accord with our just, compassio9nate, and not at all self-interested conclusions!
Say, Shmuel, didn’t you used to work for the IDF? Some kind of a proaganda writer, wasn’t it? Anyway, it’s very kind of you to forgive yourself, cause I certainly won’t, Israeli.
Aww, sorry. But I cannot bring myself to trust an Israeli, or for that matter, anyone who has ever been an Israeli. I suspect all Israelis of whatever their ostensible politics or views of having picked up the mores and methods of Israel, and most of all, I suspect them of thinking they are some kind of Jewish aristocracy, entitled to boss all Jews.
Now, I know that doesn’t speak well of me, but, hey, there it is.
It’s my position that for Israel to extricate itself from its present position and survive would be Zionism’s greatest triumph, and anybody who furthers that end is an Israeli patriot.
I cannot bring myself to trust an Israeli, or for that matter, anyone who has ever been an Israeli. I suspect all Israelis of whatever their ostensible politics or views
It’s the “Israeli spirit”, the “Israeli consciousness” and, why don’t we just come out and say it: the “Israeli essence”.
So what do you say, could Israelis ever gain that most precious of all the world’s commodities – Mooser’s trust? Is there anything any of them could possibly do? Perhaps if we “cut off all their heads in one night and replace them with others in which there is not a single [Israeli] idea”?
I’ll leave you and Klaus alone, to work out the details.
As you people talk about Israelis, have you heard about the “Ask an Israeli Project” and the “Ask a Palestinian Project”?
link to youtube.com
link to wix.com
“So what do you say, could Israelis ever gain that most precious of all the world’s commodities – Mooser’s trust? Is there anything any of them could possibly do? Perhaps if we “cut off all their heads in one night and replace them with others in which there is not a single [Israeli] idea”?”
I’m sorry, Shmuel, in which comment did I propose or endorse “cut off all their heads and replace…”?
I’m sorry Shmuel, in which comment did I state or imply that my trust was, or should be, of any value to the Israelis?
Now, please correct me if I’m wrong, but did you just, out of pique, make a completely false and tendentious conflation of bits and pieces of things which have no relation into a whiny non-accusation accusation of anti-Semitism?
Did you just accuse me of anti-Semitism because I don’t like Israeli’s? And remember, I didn’t propose they be executed, imprisoned, or that anything at all should be done to them, I just said I have a hard time liking them or (harder) trusting them.
Very interesting, extremely for the guy who doesn’t have a personal interest in it, as I incorrectly thought. Sorry about that.
And yup, I did say what I did say, and I said it. I don’t like Israelis, and I don’t trust them, and I will have a hard time trusting their ostensible political conversions. I can perfectly understand why you think this is too harsh, given the triviality, sparsity and sporadicity of Zionism’s offences, and the outright Israeli refusal to use subterfuge.
Anyway, Shmuel, wouldn’t the best solution be for you to tell me why the benefits of ZIonism and Israel to me as a Jew are so great I should discard the idea that Zionism’s only use for me is to use my religious and cultural attachments as a tool to enslave me to their ideology. For some reason (I know, it doesn’t attest to a very high degree of character or all-encompassing ethical something-or-other) I have a hard time liking people when my experience tells me that’s what they want to do with me.
Well, at any rate we have discovered, have we not, where the line is. One can criticise Israel, or its policies, or even be an outright anti-Zionist, but one cannot dislike Israelis, that borders on anti-Semitism. I guess I’ll simply have to conclude, since Shmuel knows a whole lot more about these things then me, that the actions, mores, and ideology of Israelis are closer to real and authentic Jewishness than mine, and therefore any disparaging or dislike of them borders on anti-Semitism. My God, how could I have sunk to that! At any rate, I’m sort of relieved to have the question of who is the real deal, and who is the phony, settled. (whoops, no pun intended)
Not one of your better disjointed rants, Mooser (not even one lousy, plagiarised line from Allan Sherman). I guess I’ll have to pick up the slack this time: Shticks and stones.
Now, please correct me if I’m wrong
You wouldn’t believe me if I did (Israeli germs and all that).
“Not one of your better disjointed rants, Mooser”
I wasn’t submitting it for your judgement. And there’s something so… well, let’s not go there, in your pretense that I have. And of course, the implication that I am either not sincere or joking.
ANyway, I really can’t, considering your disinterest in the whole thing, figure out why it seems to bother you that I don’t like Israelis. Surely I am allowed to dislike someone, wouldn’t you think? And it’s not as if I dislike them for their religion.
I just don’t get it. Of course, if I was ranting about bombing Israel or shooting them, you could reproach me with my professed humanitarianism. But I’m not even wishing them harm. But I’m not, I’m talking about not liking them, or trusting them.
Can’t understand why you seem to be somewhat agitated (the Klaus/Mooser conflation comment) by this.
Can’t understand why you seem to be somewhat agitated (the Klaus/Mooser conflation comment) by this.
Neither agitation nor conflation.
Klaus thinks there is something about Jews that makes them inherently suspect.
Mooser thinks (and has said so on numerous occasions) that there is something about Israelis (although he probably means Israeli Jews or at the very least excludes Palestinian citizens of Israel) that makes them inherently suspect.
Sounds like prejudice to me, whatever your personal experience with a random sample of Israelis (or Belgians or Samoans or Arabs).
“the Klaus/Mooser conflation comment” – Mooser
————————————————————-
What’s that?
“Klaus thinks there is something about Jews that makes them
inherently suspect.”
Shmuel –
What makes me suspicious is that you think in “inherently”.
As a sociologist I think primarily NOT in something “inherent”.
Shmuel,
I get the impression that Mooser is highly suspicious of the ideology of Zionism and that he distrusts all Zionists (including Israeli Zionists). In the same way, quite a few Germans expressed distrust (or outright loathing) of Nazism and German Nazis.
German anti-Nazis believed that Nazism was damaging Germany and the German tradition. Jewish anti-Zionists believe that Zionism is damaging Judaism and the Jewish tradition.
Is that an expression of bigotry or prejudice? — I don’t think so. Am I misreading this?
For myself: I like many Israelis as people, as individuals, but I have doubts about the viability and future of Zionism, the ideology to which they have attached themselves. And my main priority: I would like to disentangle Americanism from Zionism and the American from the Israeli interest — I don’t think that they are remotely compatible.
This is a complicated and highly volatile zone of discussion, to say the least.
Also, one can easily foresee that intensifying global hostility towards Zionism and Israel is going to be very difficult for non-Zionist and even anti-Zionist Jews to handle. In fact, under the pressure some anti-Zionist Jews may even flip and become militant Zionists. Zionists are counting on this psychological mechanism kicking in down the road — don’t you think?
Shmuel, Sean -
To me, Leninism (and Soviet policy) was to Marxism as
Zionism (and Israeli policy) is to Judaism.
All this has nothing to do with prejudice or inherent characteristics of people.
Klaus,
That analogy may work, with this important exception: contemporary Judaism, for the most part, has completely and enthusiastically embraced Zionism. Quite a few Marxists opposed Marxist-Leninism, Stalinism and the Soviet Union.
@ Sean:
German anti-Nazis believed that Nazism was damaging Germany and the German tradition. Jewish anti-Zionists believe that Zionism is damaging Judaism and the Jewish tradition.
Right. However, I am sure that saving their own reputation and tradition wasn’t or isn’t the only reason. I think that the main reason was or is that doing injustice to others is plain wrong.
I would like to disentangle Americanism from Zionism and the American from the Israeli interest — I don’t think that they are remotely compatible.
I agree. I have the same wish for Germany.
Intensifying global hostility towards Zionism and Israel is going to be very difficult for non-Zionist and even anti-Zionist Jews to handle. In fact, under the pressure some anti-Zionist Jews may even flip and become militant Zionists. Zionists are counting on this psychological mechanism kicking in down the road.
Again, I agree. However, I think that your statement applies more to so-called “liberal Zionists” than to anti-Zionists. Have you actually heard of an anti-Zionist becoming a Zionist? Anyway, what can we do about it? Shall we treat “liberal Zionists” with kid gloves? That wouldn’t work either.
“To me, Leninism (and Soviet policy) was to Marxism as
Zionism (and Israeli policy) is to Judaism.”
———————————————————————-
Sean -
There are two ways to interpret my analogy:
1.
The Marxist theory and concept of a society is right and good – Leninism and Soviet policy corrupted it, that’s why they failed.
Same logic with Judaism and Zionism/Israeli policy.
2.
The Marxist theory and concept of a society is wrong and bad – Leninism and the Soviet Union failed because they were Marxists.
Same logic with Judaism and Zionism/Israeli policy.
I subscribe to the second interpretation.
“anti-Zionist Jews may even flip and become militant Zionists” – Sean
———————
That’s right – we have seen that from the inception of Israel to this day.
Before 1948, many Jewish organizations in the US didn’t approve of or were at least ambivalent about the establishment of a Jewish state (Peter Novick says so in ‘The Holocaust in American Life’) – today there are none.
@ Klaus:
I subscribe to the second interpretation.
Oh, I see. I interpreted your comment the other way and wondered why you are suddenly a fan of Marxism.
So, do you only dislike Judaism or all religions? I can’t stand any religion.
“So, do you only dislike Judaism or all religions? I can’t stand any religion.”
Lefty -
It’s difficult to answer this question on Mondoweiss because they equate dislike of Judaism with dislike of Jews. And this equation has to do with the strange way being Jewish is defined as some inherent property of a person.
To me, you learn to be a Jew and you can discard Judaism and Jewishness.
But since Judaism is conceived as an ethnic, tribal religion you can’t unbecome a Jew, you can’t discard your Jewishness and Judaism. That’s one of the reasons I dislike it. When you compare it to other systems of beliefs you see how strange it is.
- Someone can say: ‘I was brought up as a Communist and believed in it, but I realized Communism is bad and I no longer believe in it and oppose it.’ – It would sound completely idiotic if one said of that person: ‘He is a self-hating Communist now.’
So, I dislike Judaism because it’s conceived as a tribal religion and a chauvinistic one. The positive flipside is that it doesn’t missionize.
I dislike Islam for the opposite reason: Their strong urge to missionize.
As far as I know, the best deed and merit of a Muslim in the eyes of Allah is having converted someone to Islam. This urge makes them very intolerant.
I used to be a Calvinist. I still value it for its simplicity. I dislike the baroque.
distrusts all Zionists (including Israeli Zionists). In the same way, quite a few Germans expressed distrust (or outright loathing) of Nazism and German Nazis.
Sean,
Mooser’s consistent attitude has been that he mistrusts all Israelis “whatever their ostensible politics or views” – including “ostensible” anti-Zionists. Kind of like the Zionist mistrust of all non-Jews, “whatever their ostensible” attitudes to Jews.
In fact, under the pressure some anti-Zionist Jews may even flip and become militant Zionists.
Maybe, but I can’t think of a single case, and there is currently no lack of pressure. Besides, that would make all anti-Zionists suspect, not just Israelis.
anti-Zionists?
——————-
There are no real anti-Zionists left as there were before the establishment of the state of Israel. A real anti-Zionist would have said, decades ago:
- Stop this Zionist concept of ingathering the world’s Jews in Israel. Tell the Russian Jews to stay in Russia and get along with their fellow Russians.
Shmuel wrote:
Mooser’s language is sometimes offensive and designed for maximum dramatic effect — and I don’t agree with all of it — but as we know he is not in the charm business.
We’ve established that “liberal Zionist” is an oxymoron. Are “Israeli anti-Zionist” and “anti-Zionist Israeli” also, perhaps, a bit of an oxymoron? Aren’t most Israeli citizens (at least the Jewish ones by choice) Zionists? If they were anti-Zionists, wouldn’t they abandon any connection to Israel?
Regarding anti-Zionist Jews flipping and becoming militant Zionists: Zionist-critical Jews who have flipped and become Zionist-positive Jews might include Benny Morris and Richard Goldstone.
“Mooser thinks (and has said so on numerous occasions) that there is something about Israelis (although he probably means Israeli Jews or at the very least excludes Palestinian citizens of Israel) that makes them inherently suspect.”
Exactly correct, right down to the exclusion of Palestinians (by the way, Shmuel, does Israel actually have “citizens” as we understand the term?)
And the thing that makes them “inherently suspect” is….wait for it, (are you seated) ZIONISM!!
“If they were anti-Zionists, wouldn’t they abandon any connection to Israel?”
Life tends to be a little more complicated than that. Anti-Zionist Israelis probably have family and friends they love who are still Zionists and anyway, most people aren’t saints and don’t devote every minute of their lives making sure that everything about their lives is 100 percent morally consistent. (And I doubt even saints manage to do that.) That’s assuming that turning one’s back on the country one was born in is the right thing to do. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. I wouldn’t judge someone who did one thing or the other.
I get disgusted by some of the things America does, but wouldn’t even for a second consider giving up my citizenship, probably not even back in the 1800′s when we were behaving pretty much the way Israel is behaving now.
@ Donald:
Anti-Zionist Israelis probably have family and friends they love who are still Zionists and anyway [...] That’s assuming that turning one’s back on the country one was born in is the right thing to do.
I totally agree with you. Also, being anti-Zionist is not the same as being anti-Israel. I think that anti-Zionist Israelis oppose the Zionist regime precisely because they like their country and want to improve it.
Donald wrote:
This analogy doesn’t quite work. I strongly disagree with many American policies and regimes, but I am a strong believer in and supporter of Americanism — in the fundamental ideology that undergirds the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.
(I also happen to love many aspects of American culture and America, the physical place.)
If one rejects the fundamental assumptions of Zionist ideology, it would be difficult to be an enthusiastic Israeli citizen. One might instead to move to the United States or Europe or never move to Israel in the first place. (I know: many Israelis were born in Israel and it is the only nation they know directly. Emigrating to another nation can be very difficult.)
>> Aren’t most Israeli citizens (at least the Jewish ones by choice) Zionists? If they were anti-Zionists, wouldn’t they abandon any connection to Israel?
I wouldn’t expect anti-Zionists to abandon the country they were born in or which they adopted, but I would expect them, at the very least, not to engage in apologetics for their country and its immoral and criminal behaviour. (And if they have the courage to speak out against their government and the Zio-supremacists who support it and who act immorally and illegally in concert with it or on its behalf, more power to them!)
Regarding anti-Zionist Jews flipping and becoming militant Zionists: Zionist-critical Jews who have flipped and become Zionist-positive Jews might include Benny Morris and Richard Goldstone.
I thought you might bring up Goldstone, but neither Morris nor Goldstone were ever anti-Zionists. Furthermore, Goldstone is not an Israeli (Are all Jews suspect? How about non-Jews who might also be susceptible to pressure? Does this mistrust of people who take principled stances extend to other areas, or does it only pertain to those who oppose Israel or Zionism?) .
Mooser’s problem with Jewish Israelis really has nothing to do with the danger of flipping. He simply doesn’t like them – all of them, any of them. And suspects them – all of them, any of them, regardless of what they may say or do – of “having picked up the mores and methods of Israel”. I think that’s pretty comfortably within the bigotry zone, whether actually meant or only written for “dramatic effect”.
He doesn’t like or trust Roni Barkan of Anarchists against the wall or Leah Tsemel who has devoted her life to fighting for Palestinian rights, or Michel Warschawski of the Alternative Information Center, or Ezra Nawi or Joseph Dana or Moshe Machover. He doesn’t like them, because they are Jewish Israelis. It is his right.
Shmuel,
You’ve persuaded me to your point of view on this — actually, that was pretty much my point of view when this discussion started. In part I was playing devil’s advocate for Mooser.
I don’t share Mooser’s and Colin Wright’s views on Israelis. I am not interested in demonizing or pigeonholing them. I even think that Israel, the nation, can be salvaged from Zionism but still remain a Jewish state in a positive sense.
@Mooser: But I cannot bring myself to trust an Israeli, or for that matter, anyone who has ever been an Israeli. I suspect all Israelis of whatever their ostensible politics or views of having picked up the mores and methods of Israel, and most of all, I suspect them of thinking they are some kind of Jewish aristocracy, entitled to boss all Jews.
Is what you are saying Mooser that, once indoctrinated into a cult (which zionism is, or has become), one can never be free of its tentacles, no matter how fast one runs or how deep the de-programing one may attempt?
Or is it, that no matter what heart-felt conversion one may undergo, the thoughts and opinions may change, but the personality characteristics remain, forever imprinted?
I suspect that one of those oh-so-very-Israeli characteristics is a certain arrogance, a sense of entitlement that weighs down even the humblest, most introverted of Israelites. If so, I can see your distaste, or more prominently, your distrust.
Maybe that ambiance of arrogance mixed with a certain selfishness? an absence of care for others? including those effectively dismissed as “diaspora”, meaning – somehow detached, de-rooted and therefore less worthy?
Or, is it a lot simpler – as in Israel is ruining a perfectly good thing for Jewish people everywhere, while not really giving a hoot? as in “scorched earth”?
On all of those things you may be justified – to greater or lesser extent – when it comes to individuals. And as I often said here, I can ill hide my own distaste for the place from whence I came, which, alas, means distaste for my younger not-so-enlightened, deeply imprinted and oh-so-arrogant self. And a much fun-having younger self it was too, so the distaste is suspect as well as disconcerting. And whereas the “young” and [most, not all!} excesses thereof, may have come and gone, touches (OK, gobblets) of the arrogance indeed remain.
But still, the pathos of it all! it’s quite a shell to carry – shouldn’t you exercise some good old-fashioned jewish compassion for them who can’t help but feel the supreme, even as they pick it apart? think of the pain of the golden calf….guilded no more but still a calf, still thinking of itself as a stallion of gold….just a bit puzzled as the worshipper crowds get increasingly sparse….
“Michel Warschawski of the Alternative Information Center”
Shmuel -
I have read Warschwsky’s book ‘On the Border’. It was an eye-opener to me. He must be a very nice guy. – But then I asked myself: He is from Straßburg, France, why did he move to Israel, a country he sees as racist and denounces? But by the very fact that he moved there he enhanced Israel’s legitimacy as the place to be for Jews. That’s schizophrenic.
But then I asked myself: He is from Straßburg, France, why did he move to Israel, a country he sees as racist and denounces? But by the very fact that he moved there he enhanced Israel’s legitimacy as the place to be for Jews. That’s schizophrenic.
We all have our personal histories. Warschawski’s father was a rabbi in Strasbourg, and he went to Israel as a teenager, to study in a yeshiva. He stayed on, changed, made ties and contacts, developed a worldview, a social context, etc.
“Warschawski’s father was a rabbi in Strasbourg, and he went to Israel as a teenager, to study in a yeshiva.”
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Yes, I know. – It’s Judaism that drew him to Israel, the Holy Land in the first place. – But why did he stay, fight Israeli policies and be called an ‘Israel-hater’? He is not a refugee, his native language is French, no problem to live and work in France. Why did he stay in Israel? I can only conclude, his Jewish-Judaist identity is such that Israel is it.
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Shmuel, you say: “We all have our personal histories.”
If you had grown up and went to school in Straßburg, or an American city, would Judaism have drawn you to Israel and you would have stayed?
But why did he stay, fight Israeli policies and be called an ‘Israel-hater’? He is not a refugee, his native language is French, no problem to live and work in France. Why did he stay in Israel? I can only conclude, his Jewish-Judaist identity is such that Israel is it.
Can you really think of no other explanation? Personal reasons (marriage, children, work, friends, allies, life)? Political/ideological reasons (dissent from within)?
If you had grown up and went to school in Straßburg, or an American city, would Judaism have drawn you to Israel and you would have stayed?
No need for hypotheticals. I grew up and went to school in Montreal, and immigrated to Israel with my religious-Zionist parents when I was 14. When I finally rejected Zionism, as an adult, I weighed the options of staying or leaving – considering personal, ethical and political factors. I decided to leave, but sometimes feel that I took the easy way out (although it was by no means easy). Had I decided to stay, “Jewish-Judaist identity” would have had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Shmuel, one last note, at least I’ll try. ;)
Do you really feel it makes sense to argue with this line of thought, or or these text skimming revelations? Considered on its own the Publication is an interesting collection … Mendelsohn and Lessing among the voices of reason, downed out by the mass of statements on the topic, was my first impression. Of course also all the usual suspects.
So “the Jew” is part of a peculiar species that denies to be shaped by the political circumstances of his time and its ideologies, due to some inherent completely alien “Jewish ideology” or “world conception” incomparable to that of any other people in the world? And it is ultimately nothing else but their resistance to convert? … to disappear into the larger crowd. One size fits all? Wouldn’t it be more interesting to envision a cross-fertilization of thoughts and approaches?
Wouldn’t it for instance make sense to look into the genesis, historical context and influences of an early German Zionist like Moses Hess, the reasons behind his decisions? Or e.g. the pervasive antisemitism, that maybe cannot explained away with simple fast-knitted assumptions? You can find it even in Kant, a man of the enlightenment. I am not aware he found any kind of mores in his Protestants, all dutifully ethical citizen?
Klaus Bloemker mentioned Jewish criminals quite early, to him that explained German antisemitism quite in line with some of the texts. Has he ever gone through the endeavor of searching archives to check the facts behind this? I doubt. A pervasive US attitude against Black Americans comes to mind.
It seems to be really hard to realize that texts have to be read in their historical context.
Yes Zionism is a religious theme over the ages. But why did so few for many centuries Jews physically return? So wouldn’t one expect people to look more closely into the historical context, why it happened then? Unfortunately Zionism feeds new live into a series of very old tropes or motifs. Zionism being the new ultimately proof for Jewish “Otherness”, in a way it was for the Nazis, it proved their point.
I am impressed by your patience in upholding a humanitarian outlook in the larger context.
What troubles me considerably are the endeavors to create a “Jewish” and an “Arab mind” or the larger construct of the clash of civilization, combined with special interests and all the problems we are facing anyway. Was it ever easy to completely grasp reality around, I somehow doubt.
“I grew up and went to school in Montreal”
Shmuel -
I see, I always thought you were writing from Israel. Anyway, I may have read too much “Jewish-Judaist identity” into Warschawsky (although he became a Communist).
But Warschawsky writes that when he grew up and went to school, a Jewish one, around 1960 in Straßburg he lived in a “ghetto of our choice”. He had no contact to any non-Jews except a couple of teachers at his school. – But no social contact to gentiles whatsoever in Straßburg in 1960!
I always thought you were writing from Israel
I have lived in Italy for the past 10 years.
Warschawsky writes that when he grew up and went to school, a Jewish one, around 1960 in Straßburg he lived in a “ghetto of our choice”. He had no contact to any non-Jews except a couple of teachers at his school. – But no social contact to gentiles whatsoever in Straßburg in 1960!
That was more or less my experience in Montreal in 1980.
Interesting way to put it, Bloemker. The old “Judeo-Bolshevik” line of thought? I may have, but then look, there is this.
One size fits all? Wouldn’t it be more interesting to envision a cross-fertilization of thoughts and approaches? … It seems to be really hard to realize that texts have to be read in their historical context… What troubles me considerably are the endeavors to create a “Jewish” and an “Arab mind” or the larger construct of the clash of civilization
I agree.
(although he became a Communist)
I noticed the same thing, LeaNder, but decided to chalk it up to language difficulties. Not enough hours in the day ;-)
My sentence: “Jewish-Judaist identity … (although he became a Communist).”
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I also noticed that it sounds sort of strange. It was short for:
- I very pious student of the Talmud who turns a communist anti-Zionist nonetheless keeps his Jewish-Judaist identity and therefore stays in the Promised Land. – My underlying assumption was that turning a communist you give up your “Jewish-Judaist identity”.
“- A (!) very pious student of the Talmud (Michael Warschawsky) … “
I don’t think so, Shmuel. I am tempted to use biographical evidence no matter how incomparable, in my case my encounter with this Jewish German painter and later director, but I have been warned, there may be a basic tendency to apologize ancestors. It does not have to be as crude as this one. Thus, I doubt it is language only.
“Klaus Bloemker mentioned Jewish criminals quite early, to him that explained German antisemitism.” – Lea
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Yes, I mentioned Jewish criminals quite early (a couple of years ago on MW) – but not to “explain German anti-Semitism”. – Quite to the contrary!
It was about the gangs of robbers who roamed and robbed on both sides of the Rheine river around 1800. These gangs were mostly INTEGRATED German Jewish gangs. There are lists of the names of the members of these gangs when they were caught and tried. I calculated the percentage of members with Jewish names, which was rather high. – What conclusion did I draw?
- I drew the conclusion that in the 19th century there was not only an integration of Jews into the upper classes but also one into the outcast classes. That’s something most people aren’t aware of. Everybody talks about the rich Jews and their upward mobility in the gentile societies and forgets about the downward mobility/integration of Jews.
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On Moses Heß: He is the quintessential religious-racist Jew. He wrote in 1837: “The Jews are the people with an inherited notion of God.”
Actually we linguist are, aware, that is. Languagewise: Rotwelch. Besides everybody that knows the history of the Jews on European ground must be aware that interactions between the respective outcasts on both sides, or the ones that weren’t let into the respective polite societies must have happened. No big surprise, is it? Are you suggesting it should be? Shouldn’t we also concentrate on the larger context? Could the bigger number of Jews explained by doing so? Were Jewish communities maybe more restricted in being more open to the poorer? Not at big as the German, e.g.?
Besides, I remember we had this debate before. The question is, why are you mentioning this here in a context were people surely don’t know European, much less German-Jewish history?
I completely disagree with you. There was a reason Hess Catholic wife was painted as a whore, don’t you think?
Besides yes, absolutely:
I agree, passed on from generation to generation. My mother wouldn’t have, but she surrendered to her husband. Thus as a child I prayed: I am small, my heart is clean, no one may enter but Jesus alone. Of course it rhymes in German. You surely remember Jesus is both Jewish and the son of God. So what is the difference?
“Jewish-Judaist identity … (although he became a Communist).”
My “language difficulties” or “a basic tendency to apologize ancestors”?
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What the hell are you talking about Lea? You got a difficulty with logic.
- “althought” means ‘contrary to expectation or a general rule’.
When I say: ‘Fritz keeps his working-class habits from his days as a mechanic ALTHOUGH he is now rich.’ – What does that mean?
“To tell you the truth, I don’t. As I have explained, it’s really not my concern.’”
Excuse me for asking, but don’t you have some family there? Or friends? You’re not concerned with their fates? My apologies if I’m wrong, but I could have sworn that once you were vitally interested in these matters.
My apologies if I’m wrong
Apologies accepted.
In that case, I’ll apologise again, say that I must be mixing you up with somebody else (all Israelis look alike to me, as I admitted), and be relieved you aren’t plagued with that kind of conflict and problems. It would be only human to be torn between what you know is an unjust and evil situation, and the actual day-to-day welfare of those you care about.
” I’ll apologise again” – Mooser to Shmuel
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Why don’t you apologise to me Mooser? Because I’m not part of your clan?
BTW – the thing with the “Jewish heads cut off and replaced” is a 19th century German idea – who else could come up with such a brilliant idea?
I make an exception with this new fight between Shmuel and you, since I actually wonder if the inquisitorial net Lefty cast over all German Jews somehow fueled your basic antagonism to Shmuel into a more extreme position then at least I have ever witnessed before. Are you suggesting it should be cast over Israelis collectively instead of over whatever “diaspora” Jews?
Would the realization that Israelis could be tricked just as easily as Americans were during the run up to the Iraq war by their government into continuing the basic and in the long run self-defeating often expansive Iron Wall strategy change anything?
You can rant back at me, although strictly Danaa another Israeli, remember, is the far better ranter than you, although, if I remember correctly, she would love to have your humor. But I won’t respond anymore.
Listen to one of my mental Israeli friends, Uri Avnery, born as Helmut Osterman in Beckum Germany in 1923 looking back at Israeli politics. What would be the masculine equivalent for old bag?
@ LeaNder:
the inquisitorial net Lefty cast over all German Jews
Asking someone’s opinion is not tantamount to an inquisition. Why don’t you want to understand the difference?
Would the realization that Israelis could be tricked just as easily as Americans were during the run up to the Iraq war by their government into continuing the basic and in the long run self-defeating often expansive Iron Wall strategy change anything?
In the internet age, the excuse “But… but… but my government made me believe it!” is not valid anymore.
What would be the masculine equivalent for old bag?
Old geezer, old crock, old fart.
“Why don’t you apologise to me Mooser? Because I’m not part of your clan?”
Well, according to what I’ve read and probably misremembered, you can’t be further than a fifth cousin to me.
Okay, I finally read through all of this from yesterday. Thanks, all.
@ German Lefty
I agree. We can add too that we live in a post-Nuremberg-and-Geneva progeny world in terms of internationally accepted standards of minimum state good behavior. The present irony is that Israel has ignored those minimum standards for decades now, and my country, the USA, has not only funded this, but also given it diplomatic cover, and has played copycat in Iraq, and it now looks like this bad state behavior will be repeated in Iran.
The internet is not a Nazi regime-issued radio with all channels controlled by Goebbels, although the US mainstream media tries hard to get the same results Goebbels got re the Israel-Palestinians conflict and Iran.
And yes, those are all corresponding names and phrases for the male version of old bag. Old geezer is closest. Old fart’s close too. Perfect labels for me.
A violent attack was launched against Malmö’s Jewish community. An explosion was heard in the early hours of Friday morning, and stones were thrown at the building. This is of course just the latest in a whole string of incidents…….
its Mayor, Ilmar Reepalu, has responded to these continuing provocations. He has denied the significance of antisemitic attacks, expressed indifference at Jewish flight from Malmö……
This is Europe today not at 1933………
yrn says: “A violent attack was launched against Malmö’s Jewish community. An explosion was heard in the early hours of Friday morning, and stones were thrown at the building. This is of course just the latest in a whole string of incidents…”
From Israel Hayom:
“…According to local statistics, Malmo sees some 50 to 100 anti-Semitic incidents per year. Many of the perpetrators are first- and second-generation Muslim immigrants, who make up 30 to 40 percent of Malmo’s population of 300,000. Many of Malmo’s Muslims are Palestinian. ..”
Go figure. You drove them from their homeland with fire and sword in the name of Jews everywhere — and they’re hostile to Jews!
You seem outraged at this. Morally, explain to me the difference between your complaint and German objections to their cities being fire-bombed in World War Two.
Presumably, the Jewish organizations in Malmo feel obliged to issue statements of at least qualified support for Israel — even if it is the usual ‘nice Israel’ tripe.
Let us conduct a thought experiment. I am a Jewish refugee from Poland who somehow got out and settled in the United States. Across the street from me is some kind of ethnic German meeting hall. They hold talks on ‘the Holocaust — did it really happen?’
I throw a rock through their window.
You are, of course, outraged at my behavior.
>> A violent attack was launched against Malmö’s Jewish community.
This behaviour is shameful and unacceptable. It must be condemned – I condemn it – and the perpetrators must be held accountable.
Same goes for the terrorism and ethnic cleansing used to create the oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist “Jewish State”, and for that state’s 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.
Have these attacks on Jews in Europe precisely coincided with Zionist efforts to stir up Islamophobia in Europe? Are European Islamophobes also likely to be Judeophobes?
Are Israel and Zionism the main beneficiaries of antisemitic incidents in Europe?
“Are Israel and Zionism the main beneficiaries of antisemitic incidents in Europe?”
Now, now, Sean, our suspicions of Israel and Zionism must got so far, and no further. Wouldn’t be nice.
Mooser,
Your irony is so multidimensional and nuanced that I sometimes lack confidence in trying to decode it. I read this as an ironic statement.
In any case, Israel and Zionism require an endless supply of antisemitic enemies — Amalek, Haman and Hitler — to keep their enterprise afloat. The true mark of a cult.
“Your irony is so multidimensional and nuanced that I sometimes lack confidence in trying to decode it. “
You? What about me? You think I can figure it out? I should probably ask you! Anyway, I think Zionism will get along just fine with Iran and the Palestinians. Seems to give them everything they need for the time being, an existential anxiety, and a people they can dispossess and destroy. As a famous Jewish lyricist once observed: “Who could ask for anything else?”
“Israel and Zionism require an endless supply of antisemitic enemies — Amalek, Haman and Hitler — to keep their enterprise afloat. The true mark of a cult.” – Sean
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That is definitely true. – Young Israelis now have the numbers of concentration camp inmates tatooed on their arms to keep the Nazi horror alive. (Article in IHT, Oct.2, 2012) – That’s definitively cultish.
–” Young Israelis now have the numbers of concentration camp inmates tatooed on their arms to keep the Nazi horror alive.”
Klaus, that’s nothing compared to the tattoo fad over here in the NW. Jewish buddy of mine went into Seattle, got drunk at a club and woke up with a gorgeous Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe from first vertebrae to coccyx. The man who did the work is a true master of the epidermal burin.
@ Mooser
Aw come on, another 9/11 would be nice. Brings us closer, as Bibi initially remarked after the first one (and the rubble had not even settled yet). Icing on that cake would be a Persian in the hi-jacking group.
I don’t know if it has been mentioned before, but Phillip didn’t quote a significant preceding sentence. These examples “could” be examples ‘taking into account the overall context’.
Kenneth Stern provided the draft which didn’t include these restricting insertions:
II. PROPOSAL FOR A REDEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM
link to tau.ac.il
And than read:
Antisemitism and delegitimisation
link to jnews.org.uk
The Real EUMC Definition of Antisemitism
link to jnews.org.uk
The Hasbara tries to convince everyone, that these ARE examples of antisemitism while disregarding the context (which must be clearly antisemitic and directed against Jews as Jews).