Update: The Russell Tribunal’s last day has begun. Watch the live stream above, and follow Mondoweiss on Twitter and the hashtag #RToPNYC for live-tweets of the session.
The Russell Tribunal on Palestine’s New York session kicked off this morning at Cooper Union (watch the live stream above). Hundreds of people have arrived to hear an expert cast of scholars on Israel’s violations of international law.
The theme for this session, the fourth Russell Tribunal on Palestine event, is “US Complicity and UN Failings in Dealing with Israel’s Violations of International Law Toward the Palestinian People.” Speakers include former adviser to Palestinian negotiators Diana Buttu, Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, author and activist Ben White, the Palestinian Center for Human Right’s Raji Sourani and more.
The end result will see the jury, which includes luminaries such as Alice Walker, Angela Davis and Mairead Corrigan Maguire, present their findings on Monday.
Here’s more on the Russell Tribunal on Palestine:
The Russell Tribunal on Palestine (RToP) is an International People’s Tribunal created by a large group of citizens involved in the promotion of peace and justice in the Middle East. These past years, following, inter alia: the international community’s failure to implement the International Court of Justice’s 2004 Advisory Opinion on the construction of a wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory ; the lack of implementation of the resolution ES-10/15 confirming the ICJ Opinion, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 20 July 2004 ; and the Israeli offensive on Gaza in December 2008 – January 2009, committees have been created in different countries to promote and sustain a citizen’s initiative in support of the rights of the Palestinian people, with public international law as a legal frame of reference.
The RToP is imbued with the same spirit and espouses the same rigorous rules as those inherited from the Tribunal on Vietnam created by the eminent scholar and philosopher Bertrand Russell (1966-1967) and the Russell Tribunal II on Latin America (1974-1976) organized by the Lelio Basso International Foundation for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples.
Members of the International Support Committee of the RToP include Nobel Prize laureates, a former United Nations Secretary-General, two former heads of state, other persons who held high political office and many representatives of civil society, writers, journalists, poets, actors, film directors, scientists, professors, lawyers and judges.
The RToP proceedings comprise a number of sessions which deal with different aspects of complicities and omissions by states, international organisations and corporations in the ongoing occupation of Palestinian territories by Israel and the perpetuation of the violations of international law committed by Israel.
Jadaliyya‘s Noura Erakat explains why it’s important to focus on U.S. complicity in the denial of Palestinian rights:
By neutering the UN and shielding Israel from any form of accountability, the United States has also engendered more intolerance and hatred among Israelis towards Palestinians. In late August, a group of Jewish-Israeli children attempted to lynch a Palestinian boy in East Jerusalem because he “made passes at Jewish girls.” How is it that we as a nation have overcome this same bitter and dangerous racism amongst whites towards blacks, and yet sanction it by our “closest and unique ally” whom we deem the only democracy in the Middle East?
This is not new. In 1985, as Black South Africans together with their allies globally rallied against Apartheid, President Reagan continued to sing the praises of our unique ally in Africa. The US categorized Nelson Mandela as a terrorist and did not remove him from its terrorist watch list until 2008. Like the destructive role it plays today, the US at the time used its veto to stonewall an international resolution to the conflict. In response, ordinary people in the US and across the globe united in a campaign of boycott, divestment, and sanctions against Apartheid South Africa until its dismantlement in the early nineties.
In the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, the US has demonstrated itself as unable and unwilling to broker peace and has become central to the problem. Alice Walker, a Pulitzer-Prize winning author and a jurist for the Russell Tribunal, explains “…the United States is complicit because it backs Israel no matter what. And I think this is corrupting, I think for our young people especially, to see that…justice in this case is never even thought about.”
The purpose of the Tribunal is to collectively think about justice as a civic community and to take the lead where our governments have proven inept and counterproductive. This final session of the Tribunal, with an emphasis on US complicity, is particularly apt, since it points the finger at the conflict’s financier and enabler and inwards at the US taxpayers and voters who have the agency to do something about it. President Obama may have the microphone at the UN, but it is an American constituency that has the choice to lead where the government has failed.
For more, visit the Russell Tribunal’s website.
A huge thank you for sharing this link.
It’s a lot easier to follow the #RToPNYC tweets with Tweetchat.com. Sign in with your own account at upper right Sign In.
Amazing article alex. However i think its gonna take alot more then extraordinary citizens to change foreign policy. But it will do wonders to initiate discusion and awareness
It will take a mass of very ordinary citizens to freighten politicians with the prospect of no money and no election. We are very far from that. Until then the US is complicit to a large degree.
Thanks Alex. ADL/AIPAC et al must be having full body kvetch seizures right now. The world has awoken from it’s slumber.
Nope. ADL/AIPAC could not care less about yet another leftist together where the same lineup preaches to the choir. No one much cares. You have no mainstream support here.
You seem to care enough to spend time posting here, hophmi.
Gosh, and yet here we anti-Zionists are chugging along with our pesky get-togethers.
Why can’t we emulate you Zionists with your election-time hate-films, Christian fundamentalist eschatological movie series starring some aging 1980s has-been teen idol, buying off of Congress, etc. etc?
Fringe lunatic right wing racist supremacist ideologies are not “mainstream” unless the world has morphed into something quite sinister. Clue being in fringe lunatic. This mandate you feel you have to speak for all and sundry is really quite bizarre.
@hoph :
Now show us where ADL/AIPAC says so. Also, Israel declaration of independence should be renounced null and void, because in time there was so many leftists signing that. We can play this game around hoph.
“you have no mainstream support here” Hop glorifying the lack of coverage about this critical issue and this conference in the U.S. MSM. Hop’s kind of twisted democracy at work. I lobby control of our media on this issue. Hop supports that. Sickening
And without fair coverage of these critical issues masses of Amercians are waking up because of the web, callers into Washington Journal other outlets. No stopping this train of truth and justice hop no stopping it. The sooner Israel gets this the better off Israel based on the 67 border will be. Not long before we keep hearing one person one vote over and over again.
@Kathleen
Agree. I think hopper is the one running scared and living in a bubble. He knows that 20 years ago there was no significant anti-Zionist movement on campus, no calls for a one state solution, no BDS and certainly no posters up at Metro North. Things are changing.
Hophmi, obviously you hate this place–I think it brings out the worst in you in response.
So how would you like to see the I/P conflict discussed? I’ll put forward what I think would be fair–it would look a lot like the work that Human Rights Watch puts out. A few days ago they had a report (based in part on the work of Palestinian human rights workers) on torture by Hamas in the Gaza Strip. They’ve been critical of human rights violations by the PA in the West Bank. And they’ve been very critical of Israeli war crimes in Lebanon in 2006 and in Gaza during 2009 and of the occupation in general. To fill gaps in their coverage one could go to B’Tselem’s website.
Now if the conflict got that sort of fairminded treatment by the “mainstream” press and politicians I think our policies would change significantly. The mainstream might not move as far to the pro-Palestinian side as Mondoweiss, but it would shift pretty far from a place that Abe Foxman or David Harris would find comfortable. There would probably be a widespread and serious determination to pressure Israel into accepting a solution along the 67 borders, with maybe mutually agreed upon changes (and genuinely mutual, not something biased towards Israel’s interests). And there would also be pressure on Hamas to change its charter and be unambiguous in accepting Israel inside the 67 borders. But there would not be this pretense that Israel is the civilized side that wants peace, if only the Palestinians weren’t so savage and violent and rejectionist, which is the view that is sometimes stated outright and sometimes implied by the majority of our politicians. No serious person could take that position if they relied on HRW and B’Tselem for their coverage of the human rights violations of all sides. This is why some supporters of Israel hate HRW so much.
Would you support that? That is, the sort of coverage you’d find at HRW an B’Tselem, taking their coverage in total.
Donald, thanks for the reference to the HRW Hamas report. A friend has challenged me to post about that and I will. But you are wise to bring it up.
“Hophmi, obviously you hate this place–I think it brings out the worst in you in response.”
I think you’re being much too critical. Has Hophmi slapped anyone? Expectorated at/on anybody? Pushed or shoved? Has he once threatened to use a gun or a bomb? Has he used any political or legal intransigence against Mondoweiss?
No, for a Zionist, Hophmi is really minding his P’s and Q’s. He’s a regular Zionist Gandhi
Thanks. I wasn’t actually thinking consciously about you posting here about the HRW Hamas torture report, but I’m glad you are going to do it. One thing that bugged me a little about Peter Beinart’s post on the subject–he didn’t give credit to the Palestinian human rights groups who collected a lot of the data that HRW used. HRW, to its credit, did. (And I didn’t mention them myself above, but I’m making up for it here.)
It may be important not to idealise Israel’s opponents but one can recognise their misdeeds and crimes to the fullest extent without accepting the legitimacy of pre-67 Israel, which rests on a certain claim of right, ie the claim that Jewish people and they only are the true heirs to sovereignty in the Holy Land. That claim is mistaken, though good people have believed it and good people – people in general better than me, I don’t doubt – believe it now. But it’s not true. No statements about the crimes of other local regimes imply its truth.
“accepting the legitimacy of pre-67 Israel, which rests on a certain claim of right, ie the claim that Jewish people and they only are the true heirs to sovereignty in the Holy Land. That claim is mistaken, ”
I’m not really claiming that the 2SS is fair to the Palestinians. Ultimately it is up to the Palestinians to decide what they want to go for, but I think Finkelstein is right that Israel inside the 67 borders has the same legal right to exist as any other state. That doesn’t justify the Nakba.
Also, I was mainly talking about what I think you could get people in the US to support. The politicians already pay lip service to a 2SS, but in practice Israel has gotten away with settlement building for decades and there is no sign that this is going to change any time soon. If the MSM covered the topic with the fairness of HRW and/or B’Tselem maybe that would change.
Finkelstein is wrong. 1948-1967 Israel existed by the exclusion of rightful residents of its territory and that situation was not right, and so was not normal, unless injustice was or is the norm. So it could not have possessed the rights of a normal state. What the Palestinians might be minded to concede is another matter but I don’t believe that there is any stable solution based on confirming what is objectively massive injustice, even though I would not be surprised if a big majority on both sides of the divide profoundly wished that there could be. I’m not that familiar with the work of HRW – have they developed arguments that refute mine? I’ve got refuted quite a lot in my time.
I fully concede that peace along the lines (geographical and political) that you mention is the only prospect that would command much support at the moment in the United States or in the wider western world. I’m the one who’s out of step with my culture, I admit.
Donald says: ” I think Finkelstein is right that Israel inside the 67 borders has the same legal right to exist as any other state…”
Why? For that to be true, first one has to accept the notion that the Zionists has a right to any of Palestine at all — which I don’t.
Second, one has to agree that Israel need not restrict herself to the actual borders she herself accepted — those the UN set in 1947.
Why stop at the pre-1967 ‘borders’? That merely represents what Israel had managed to grab up to that point — they aren’t legally determined borders, and never were. Why not the West Bank and Golan as well? Why not southern Lebanon? Why not the fertile bits of Jordan? Why stop with 1967? Let’s build a fine, big state while we’re at it. No need for Israel to feel cramped. Heck, her defenders are always talking about how teeny she is. Let’s give her a fine, big domain — a proper Texas-sized swath. All nicely depopulated, of course. The Jewish people need lebensraum — or am I getting things mixed up here?
Legal boundaries and her own commitments needn’t tie Israel down. You just said she was entitled to everything within the pre-1967 ceasefire lines. Given that, I fail to see why she shouldn’t help herself to more still.
Your logic appears to be that Israel has a ‘right’ to just take whatever she pleases, irrespective of what she’s been assigned or agreed to. Or what is your logic? What limits would be binding? After all, Israel isn’t bound by her word: that’s already been established. So what would bind her?
I’d like to not see the conflict discussed at all, because I do not think it is important enough in the overall scheme of things to merit the intense attention that it does get.
However, that’s obviously unrealistic given the reality that half the Earth has some kind of interest in the region.
I’d like to see the media discuss the conflict with some respect for the people on the ground, rather than focusing on government arguments and activist elites. When some reporter from the Guardian does a piece on the hardship Palestinians on the ground face, I learn from it and it broadens my understanding of the conflict.
However, when the same bureau chief simply fails, time and again, to offer the narrative of Israelis in any meaningful way, that makes me angry.
Human rights literature is fine. The problem with it is institutional. There are always going to be more reports criticizing the Israelis, because Israel is a free society, and even with all the nonsense, human rights orgs can do their work. An organization with the freedom B’Tselem has would be impossible in a non-democratic society.
Events like the Russell Tribunal preach to the choir, much like Guardian articles do the same by ignoring the Israeli mainstream. They’re a dime a dozen. Just as they did with the Israeli Apartheid Week at UPenn, Jewish organizations, who have in the last few years gone after events like this full force, have realized how minor they are, and have decided to take a lower profile, rather than giving them free publicity. The fact of the matter is that the media has ignored the entire thing. Do a Google News search for Russell Tribunal, and next to nothing come up, outside of a few blogs and hard left indymedia sources.
So when someone says here that Jewish organizations are quaking in their boots, it’s much like when Arab dictators, their forces destroyed, proclaimed great victories during the Six Day War. It’s a sort of theater of the weak and ineffectual. There’s no truth to it. And maybe you’re better off knowing that.
i mean it is odd isn’t it that instead of promoting the partition plan borders, and population returns, as envisaged in the UN plan, much lauded but never advanced seriously, we now hear that the first land grab and ethnic cleansing be ratified as the basis for a solution. It being assumed that while non-Europeans can experience a loss, even if totally unjust, what has once been grabbed by ‘white’ persons (cf that Tunisian Israeli minister) has to remain in their possession, any solution is going to require real Zionist sacrifices, oh well I suppose not South Africa is after all ‘solved’, with no inconvenience to the Anglo-American corps and such like. Anyway endless war makes for interesting history but a crap and unhappy lives.
It’s pretty clear by now that hophmi is very uncomfortable with non-Israelis and non-Jews being involved in human rights work in Palestine (or abroad). Groups like Peace Now make for great propaganda (“we’re a democracy, we have human rights groups too”), while having internationals involved could mean losing control of the hasbara narrative.
” The problem with it is institutional. There are always going to be more reports criticizing the Israelis, because Israel is a free society, and even with all the nonsense, human rights orgs can do their work. An organization with the freedom B’Tselem has would be impossible in a non-democratic society.”
B’Tselem can operate relatively freely, (though I think some in Israel want to change that), but there are also Palestinian human rights groups in Gaza and the West Bank which do their work in their societies.
Anyway, as far as HRW and Amnesty International and other western organizations are concerned, they do a tremendous amount of work on dictatorships and don’t concentrate specifically on Israel. Pro-Israel types sometimes claim otherwise, but mainly because any criticism aimed at Israel is seen as unfair by them.
I don’t read the Guardian regularly (except for Greenwald’s column), but if it is as you say then yes, they should also give the views of Israelis. We get the opposite bias in the NYT, for the most part. And the human rights groups like HRW and Amnesty are more likely to be cited when criticizing some unpopular regime than they are when they put out a report about Israel.
” Jewish organizations, who have in the last few years gone after events like this full force, have realized how minor they are, and have decided to take a lower profile, rather than giving them free publicity.”
Well, that’s not a good thing if true. It means the pro-Israel bias in our society isn’t being sufficiently challenged. I’d prefer a society that took the HRW approach–criticize all factions using the same standards.
Incidentally, I’m on the mailing lists of the ADL and the AJC, presumably because I subscribe to Tikkun and that has put me on all sorts of mailing lists–some good (asking for help for Holocaust survivors or their rescuers) and some not (David Harris and Abe Foxman screeds). And what Foxman and Harris say about the I/P conflict is ridiculously one-sided. Depending on my mood, I either laugh as I tear up the requests for money or mutter something about “bigoted jerks”.
“So it could not have possessed the rights of a normal state.” (MHughes)
Finkelstein wasn’t talking about right or wrong. He was talking about legal and illegal.
“I’m not that familiar with the work of HRW – have they developed arguments that refute mine?” (MHughes)
I don’t think HRW takes a stand on what happened in 1948, an atrocity that was before their time, but if they did they would condemn the Nakba. They deal with current human rights violations. The organization started as “Helsinki Watch”, devoted to the human rights violations in the communist bloc, and then there was “Americas Watch”, which chronicled human rights violations by countries and groups in the Western Hemisphere (they got into a lot of arguments with Elliot Abrams in the Reagan Administration) and then “Asia Watch” and I think “Africa Watch” and “Middle Eastern Watch”, before unifying as Human Rights Watch. To the extent it has a bias it has one towards liberal US foreign policy, so I don’t like that. But most of the time on the I/P conflict they seem pretty honest and they really deserved a medal back in the early Reagan days (or their Americas Watch ancestor did).
Hophmi says: “…However, when the same bureau chief simply fails, time and again, to offer the narrative of Israelis in any meaningful way, that makes me angry…”
Too frigging bad. You call it ‘the narrative’ — and that way lend it a spurious legitimacy.
The ‘Israeli narrative’ is a piece of poisonous crap. If we’re discussing Nazi Germany, we don’t need to slow up to consider ‘the Nazi narrative’ — and if we’re discussing Zionism, there’s no need to slow up to discuss the ‘Israeli narrative.’ It was demonstrated to be horseshit from start to finish long ago.
the narrative of Israelis in any meaningful way
i fail to see how this would be helpful to israelis anyway. the more ‘meaningful’(truthful) it is, the more damaging to their reputation.
Even assuming for the sake of argument that the Israeli narrative has some legitimacy, they’ve decades of near exclusive promulgation of their narrative in the American MSM. At this point it shouldn’t need to be re-presented over and over. If it does need to be, that means there’s something wrong with the narrative.
“herself ”
“her”
“she”
—-
Can someone enlighten me here, please? Is there any other country in the world that gets such a privileged treatment of personification the way Israel does? Does England? Does Germany? Does Lebanon? Does Swaziland? Correct me if I’m wrong but to my knowledge, every other effing country is just “it”, non?
As I’ve said before here, if hophmi thinks this movement is “fringe” and irrelevant, why does he spend half his life posting on this site?
chinese box: “As I’ve said before here, if hophmi thinks this movement is “fringe” and irrelevant, why does he spend half his life posting on this site?”
He may do this because deep down inside he realizes we’re right, and somehow he thinks if he argues with us, we’ll stop being right.
In defense of this, I’ll point out that if we rested our position on the significance of astrological signs, he’d probably feel comfortable ignoring us.
RE: “How is it that we as a nation (the U.S.) have overcome this same bitter and dangerous racism amongst whites towards blacks. . . ” ~ the Russell Tribunal
MY COMMENT: Unfortunately, we haven’t by a long shot. We have certainly made progress, but consider the point from which which we started.
There is plenty of racism in the U.S. by whites towards blacks, it is just more subtle (less overt) than in times past. And it sometimes rears its very ugly head in the form of antipathy towards “sand ni^^ers”, “towel heads”*, etc.
* Letter from the US: Sikh murders caused by Islamophobia – link to greenleft.org.au
P.S. ALSO RELEVANT: “How the Power of Myth Keeps Us Mired in War”, by Ira Chernus, TomDispatch.com, 01/20/11
SOURCE – link to tomdispatch.com
RE: “There is plenty of racism in the U.S. by whites towards blacks, it is just more subtle (less overt) than in times past.” – me (above)
THE WAY WE WERE (CIRCA 1939); LEST WE FORGET! ! !
• Nelson Eddy sings Shortnin Bread 13.09.1939.wmv (VIDEO, 02:39) – link to youtube.com
• Shortnin Bread lyrics (unabridged) – link to mondoweiss.net
The Russel Tribunal in Cape Town allocated a huge half hour on the third day, a few hours before closing remarks, for a representative of the Israeli government to present its case. This is what defines a kangaroo court which the Russel Tribunal is.
Alice Walter and other central figures on this tribunal have put their lives on the line in support of the Palestinians, like participating in the infamous Turkish flotilla to Gaza. No impartiality can be expected from participants like Alice. And so it goes for most of those participating in the fashionable get together. No hard question have been posed in the direction of the Palestinians. They can do no wrong in the eyes of the Russel Tribunal faithful. The conclusions of this tribunal need to be trashed as soon as land on your desk.
giladg,
Run this by me once again: what would motivate non-Jews to get involved in Jewish ethnic and/or religious nationalism when they emphatically reject ethnic and/or religious nationalism as a political tool for themselves?
Haven’t Zionists pretty much separated themselves from the entire world (a theme, by the way, that looms large in traditional Judaism)? Israel is already close to being an international pariah.
Do you see me haranguing you about my ethnic and/or religious nationalist demands and needs? No, you do not. If I *were* motivated by ethnic and/or religious nationalism (and I am not), I wouldn’t bug you about it. To do so would be rude, uncivil and self-defeating — you would resent my invasion of your space and my demands on your attention.
Many Zionists seem to occupy a very different mental world than the rest of the human race, and they don’t realize it.
@ sean
See if you can figure this out……
“The Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which mentioned the Lavon incident twice in three pages, expressed caution about investigating such sensitive matters. “There would undoubtedly (even with care) be instances which would lead to foreign governmental protests, to violent attacks by special groups in the United States…”
I wonder what what special groups the Senate was concerned about carrying out violent attacks? Were they referring to Jews rioting in the US if israel was investigated or were they referring to Americans attacking Jews if Israel’s attacks on US targets overseas were revealed?
From :link to irmep.org
New Declassified Documents
On October 21, 2010 the National Archives and Records Administration released Box #1 (of 67) from sealed US Senate records about the activities of non diplomatic representatives of foreign governments active in the United States. The formerly classified documents reveal the rationale for extensive investigations and Justice Department enforcement actions in 1962-1963. Top US lobbying firms, public relations consultants and foreign lobbying groups were ordered to submit records under threat of subpoena to Senate Foreign Relations Committee researchers.
A declassified March 17, 1961 three-page memorandum outlines why the Senate Foreign Relations Committee focused intensely on the Jewish Agency, the American Zionist Council and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (then functioning as the AZC’s lobbying division, before incorporating):
“In recent years there has been an increasing number of incidents involving attempts by foreign governments, or their agents, to influence the conduct of American foreign policy by techniques outside normal diplomatic channels…..there have been occasions when representatives of other governments have been privately accused of engaging in covert activities within the United States and elsewhere, for the purpose of influencing United States Policy (the Lavon Affair).”
The “Lavon Affair” refers to a false flag Israeli terrorist bombing plot code named “Operation Susannah” against US and other targets in Egypt. It was designed to reverse US policy pressuring British withdrawals and reverting control of the Suez Canal to Egypt. Israeli agents infiltrating as Arabs were discovered, arrested and criminally prosecuted in Egypt when their explosives malfunctioned, leading to a crisis in the Israeli government and relations with the US.”
I’ll try to answer some questions posed to me. But first, seanmcbride, the more I read your posts the more it becomes clear to me that the thing you dislike most about Israel is that you see Jews standing up for their own rights. And you care nothing for those rights. You know nothing about those rights and you are not interested in learning about them either. And yet you raise the flag of Palestinian rights as if they are the only ones entitled to rights or are the only ones who have had their rights denied. And you ask the question why should you, a non-Jew, get involved if Jewish nationalist themselves reject religious nationalism as a political tool. I don’t agree with your question as it generalizes. But it is important to understand that Zionism is not a political concept. Zionism is a desire for Jews to once again, after having been denied rights for over 2,000 years and have been persecuted relentlessly during those 2000 years, to return and the one country where it all began and control their own destiny, and not have to have someone else take responsibility for the security of Jews. History has taught the Jews that no one else is going to safeguard the safety of Jews, but Jews themselves. The Russell Tribunal is a kangaroo court because it totally ignores the alliances the Palestinian Arabs have made with the countries and power players in the region. From denying Jews rights to pushing the Arab and Muslims nations to wage multiple wars against Jews and the state of Israel. Jews have always lived in the land now called Israel. But in the 1800’s, when Jews tried to purchase land, the Palestinians turned to the Turks (Ottomans) and had them ban further sale of land. They banned Jews from purchasing land in their historic homeland. This is and was racist. This denied Jewish rights. The Palestinians worked closely and coordinated with the invading countries in 1948. They denied the Jews an option for an independent country, in the historic homeland of the Jewish people. And the wars continued and in 1967 when Israel moved onto the West Bank, the West Bank was controlled by Jordan, who had declared war on Israel and lost. The area is now contested between Israel and the Palestinians as the this piece of land was not part of a Palestinian state because there was never such a state. UN resolutions have called for a negotiated settlement and for Israel to withdraw from some territories, not all the territories. The Palestinians refuse to negotiate on substantive issues because they have a weak case. “straightine” asks what Palestinians have to do for me to be satisfied. They need to cut from their Arab and Muslim brothers and accept that Jews have a long history and rights in the region. They can do this without having to give up on what they see as their rights. They don’t have a right to sovereignty over the holiest site for Jews and the third holiest site for Muslims, the Temple Mount. As they, the Palestinians, have never controlled Jerusalem in all of history, the Palestinians need to climb down the tree of demanding that Jerusalem be divided and that the holy sites be given to them. Jews have rights here and those rights have been abused and ignored. But no one at the Russell Tribunal is listening, or wants to. ColinWright makes a remark that the half hour in Cape Town, allocated for Israel to make its case, is more than enough. This should tell you everything you need to know about the ColinWrights of the world and those attending the kangaroo court, now in its fourth session in NY. Jump jump, jump jump, jump jump.
I have never heard Sean object to “Jews rights.” He has stood up for all citizens rights of Israel based on the 67 borders rights not just Jews. You ethnocentric elitist. Your language is filled with arrogance and ethnocentric comments. Such an elitist. Sean has persistently stood up for the rights of the Palestinians in their own internationally recognized lands including the Palestinian lands that Israel is illegally occupying. The illegal settlers need to get out if they want a safe and secure Israel if not keep doing what they are doing and the anger and hatred towards Israel will continue to grow. Their choice
The percentage of Jews that lived on the land in that area was a small fraction of what it is now. The creation of Israel in 47 was just that a creation of the UN. Yet Israel has refused to abide by every UN decision since that time. Giladg clearly you can type up your own opinion but you know the saying your false facts just do not fly here or anywhere else in the world these days.
What Sean has over and over stood up for are the rights of the Palestinians who are being persecuted by Israeli’s who continue to step over the borders of Israel based on internationally recognized borders. Israel is the illegal aggressor here there is no way around it.
“[Jews] have been persecuted relentlessly during those 2000 years”
“return [to] the one country where it all began”
—————————————————————————–
giladg -
Why didn’t the Jews stay in Palestine during Roman times?
If they had stayed there would be no need to return.
giladg October 7, 2012 at 4:11 am “… the thing you dislike most about Israel is that you see Jews standing up for their own rights”
Israeli Jews have no right to any of Palestine. They have Israel. The Palestinian want only their rights under the law and have offered to accept far far less than the territory illegally acquired by war since Israel was declared independent of Palestine. Unfortunately Israelis keep illegally settling outside of Israel, in Palestine, supported by the Israeli Govt.
“Zionism is a desire for Jews to once again, after having been denied rights for over 2,000 years and have been persecuted relentlessly during those 2000 years, to return and the one country where it all began and control their own destiny, and not have to have someone else take responsibility for the security of Jews. “
Uh? We’ve got it. The State of Israel. We’ve had it for over 64 years. The problem is Israel has illegally acquired by war over half of what remained of Palestine after Israel was declared. Illegally annexed. Illegally settled.
“The Palestinians worked closely and coordinated with the invading countries in 1948.”
If you were being invaded, dispossessed, you wouldn’t call on your allies? AMAZING!
” They denied the Jews an option for an independent country, in the historic homeland of the Jewish people. “
Uh? Israel exists. It has for 64 years. Alas even before it existed, Jewish forces were busy cleansing territory outside that allocated for the Jewish State. Israel is still cleansing both inside and outside the State of Israel. It is Israel denying the Palestinians statehood by continuing the occupation, while illegally creating ‘facts on the ground’.
” the wars continued and in 1967 when Israel moved onto the West Bank, the West Bank was controlled by Jordan, who had declared war on Israel..”
According to the UNSC it was Israel attacking. States who’re attacked don’t need to declare war, it has already started.
“The area is now contested between Israel and the Palestinians as the this piece of land was not part of a Palestinian state because there was never such a state”
Irrelevant. Israel is a UN Member, UN Members are obliged to the UN Charter Chapt XI.
“UN resolutions have called for a negotiated settlement and for Israel to withdraw from some territories, not all the territories. “
The UNSC resolution (UNSC res 242) was between “states” to end the hostilities between “states”, not Israel and Palestine and did not mention the word negotiate. Meanwhile “territories occupied” and not withdrawn from are still occupied. Logic 101 for cretinous Hasbara pushers.
“The Palestinians refuse to negotiate on substantive issues because they have a weak case”
Twaddle. The law falls rightly on the side of Palestinians rights. That’s why there are resolutions against Israel. It is Israel who must negotiate in order to circumvent the consequences of the Law by striking a deal with the Palestinians.
“They don’t have a right to sovereignty over the holiest site for Jews and the third holiest site for Muslims, the Temple Mount.”
Neither does Israel. corpus separatum was never instituted and Jerusalem was never recognized as Israeli or legally annexed to Israel. It is still part of the Arab territories (UNSC res 476)
Your Hasbara is holey
giladg says: ‘ColinWright makes a remark that the half hour in Cape Town, allocated for Israel to make its case, is more than enough. This should tell you everything you need to know about the ColinWrights of the world and those attending the kangaroo court, now in its fourth session in NY. Jump jump, jump jump, jump jump.’
Well, as noted, I’ve never heard anyone able to come up with a valid defense of Israel that would have run for more than one hundred consecutive words.
How long would it take to say that? Two minutes? First make it to one hundred words without lying, and then we’ll see about the half hour.
@giladg: They need to cut from their Arab and Muslim brothers
Why? In my country (Australia) we don’t ask that Chinese cut themselves off from their family and friends in China. More pertinently we don’t ask that Aborigines cut themselves off from those in PNG and elsewhere who are closest in ethnicity. We don’t ask that Muslims here cut themselves off from their fellows in other countries. Why is this necessary in Israel?
@giladg: and accept that Jews have a long history and rights in the region.
Have they said that they don’t – citation please. And be more precise – which rights? “Rights” is too vague – I could reasonably demand the right to pick the apples on my own tree, but not on my neighbour’s.
@giladg: They can do this without having to give up on what they see as their rights.
Like the right to live on their historic land? Like the right to remain on good terms with “their Arab and Muslim brothers”?
@giladg: They don’t have a right to sovereignty over the holiest site for Jews and the third holiest site for Muslims, the Temple Mount.
You’ve just said that they “can do this without giving up on what they see as their rights”. Now you’re changing your position.
@giladg: As they, the Palestinians, have never controlled Jerusalem in all of history,
That is a specious argument. Jerusalem has a somewhat chequered history having been conquered more times than any other city. When did Jews last control it prior to the 20th century and how long for? What other powers have controlled it for long periods of time? Do the descendants of the Romans have rights over Jerusalem?
@giladg: the Palestinians need to climb down the tree of demanding that Jerusalem be divided and that the holy sites be given to them.
But you’ve already said that they “can do this without giving up on what they see as their rights”. Why should those that live there not control East Jerusalem? Reasons not pronouncements.
@giladg: Jews have rights here and those rights have been abused and ignored.
What rights? Be more precise.
@giladg: The Palestinians worked closely and coordinated with the invading countries in 1948.
You mean that the invading army that was trying to stem their ethnic cleansing by the Zionists. This argument has already been rehearsed here many times giladg – go and learn some history!
@giladg: And the wars continued and in 1967 when Israel moved onto the West Bank, the West Bank was controlled by Jordan, who had declared war on Israel and lost.
Israel began the 1967 war by attacking the Egyptian Air Force.
I won’t waste my time on your other falsehoods – they have been repudiated many times on this site. You have disastrously failed Colin’s challenge to write one hundred straight words in defense of Israel without lying.
“Why didn’t the Jews stay in Palestine during Roman times?
If they had stayed there would be no need to return.”
Well, a lot of them did, but they weren’t the right kind of Jew, because they converted to Christianity and Islam and became Palestinians. Like George Soros the “managed” to escape the Holocaust. So naturally, it’s renegades versus returning remnant in the ME!
What a piece of absurd fiction, gihadg. No doubt you got it from the same cartoon book, Zionism for Dummies, where Bibi got his cartoon bomb. Nothing you write has any relation to history or reality, just a wheedling whining pack of lies and pathetic justifications for well-documented zionist crimes.
Most Jews did stay in Palestine — “the people of the land.” When the country was conquered by the Arab armies they became Moslems. The Palestinians are their descendants.
Anyway, Judaism did not begin in Palestine. It began in Ur (in present-day Syria) when a troublemaker named Abraham smashed his father’s idols and had to flee with his kin, slaves and livestock. Why don’t we return to Ur?
Many did stay, many were forced to leave and many were butchered by the Romans.
Many did stay, many were forced to leave and many were butchered by the Romans.
Professor of Judaic studies “Jerry Haber” (Magnes Zionist) on the myth of forced exile: link to jeremiahhaber.com
Shmuel, just as the story of Pesach was passed verbally from generation to generation, which is how we know about it, the same goes for the exile by the Romans. Jews, who landed up in so many different places around the world had stories that were very consistent with others in far off places. But of course, Jews controlled the media back then.
“Professor of Judaic studies “Jerry Haber” (Magnes Zionist) on the myth of forced exile: link to jeremiahhaber.com”
—————–
Shmuel –
I just started reading your link. It’s great. I had always been suspicious whether it’s true that the Israelites of old were ‘kicked out’ by the Romans.
I had always been suspicious whether it’s true that the Israelites of old were ‘kicked out’ by the Romans.
The whole subject is only relevant (apart from historical interest and rigour) because Zionism has made it relevant (as Haber explains) and a lot of people caught up in the romance of “exile and return” feel that it makes some sort of difference, but it really doesn’t. It is actually quite amazing that Palestinians are forced to contend with such nonsense. Even if it were demonstrably true (which it’s not, of course, “mythhistory” notwithstanding), “Great-great….-grandad popped out for a pack of smokes (or was sent to Thrace on a galley) about 2000 years ago, but we’re back now” is just too preposterous for words.
the story of Pesach was passed verbally from generation to generation, which is how we know about it, the same goes for the exile by the Romans
I sincerely hope you’re not serious, Gilad.
“But of course, Jews controlled the media back then.” – giladg
——————————————————————————
I know Gilad is joking but not entirely.
The underlying assumption is this: People who challenge or critizise or worse, ‘deligitimize’ something Jewish or Israeli do so because they have:
- a conspiracy theory
- a scapegoat theory
- a psychological projection
- an envie complex
Any number of psychological, cognitive or emotional or whatever personality defects that account for their criticism.
Shmuel, Jews do also have the works for Josephus Flavious regarding what the Romans did. There is no physical evidence of the exodus from Egypt and life in Egypt. Passing the story verbally from generation to generation makes sense to me, so yes, I am serious. Why do you feel that you need to apologize for your history?
Why do you feel that you need to apologize for your history?
Actually, I feel no need to apologise for any history – or mythology for that matter, but I also know the difference between the two.
Josephus – Good. Now you’re talking actual history instead of mythology or “mythhistory”.
Haber on Josephus:
Jews do also have the works for Josephus
Thanks to the non-Jews who felt his writings were worth preserving. “We” had little use for him and his foreign-style historiography. (See Yosef Hayim Yerushalmi on Jewish attitudes to history and historiography.)
On the credibility of Flavius Josephus:
————————————————————
“Josephus was born Joseph ben Matthias in 37 A.D., the child of an upper-class Jewish family. In 68 A.D. , when he was only thirty-one years old, Josephus became governor of Galilee and a general in the Jewish liberation army in the war against Rome. After his followers were wiped out in the siege of Jotapata, Josephus surrendered.” …
“Josephus spent the rest of his life writing books explaining why the Jews had revolted against Rome and why he himself had defected to the Roman side. Writing in Rome for Roman readers – many of whom, including the emperor, were eyewitnesses to the events described – Josephus was unlikely to have fabricated the basic facts of history.”
——————————————————————————-
Marvin Harris: ‘Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches – The Riddles of Culture’ p.142
Passing the story verbally from generation to generation makes sense to me
We also “remember” the creation of the world and the Sinaitic Revelation and any number of other things. That does not make them historical facts, except in the sense that these myths and stories are a part of the intellectual, theological and cultural history of Judaism (and beyond). That you would mistake this for the history of real events – and even expect others to treat cultural “memory” as a reasonable substitute for historical documentation and analysis – is what I find hard to take seriously.
The exodus from Egypt and the exile of the Jews can only ever be proven to be correct. If physical evidence is found and connected to the events, the stories can be corroborated. Or if it is clear to all that G-d has revealed himself once again. On the other hand saying that these stories are myths, can never be proven and are just hot air designed to destroy, break down what others have, which is typical from those on the left.
giladg October 8, 2012 at 11:33 am
“saying that these stories are myths, can never be proven and are just hot air designed to destroy, break down what others have, which is typical from those on the left”
What no religious folk who believe in the scriptures on the ‘left’? AMAZING!!!
On the other hand saying that these stories are myths, can never be proven and are just hot air designed to destroy, break down what others have, which is typical from those on the left.
Apart from the fact that there happens to be a good deal of evidence to the contrary in this case (again, see Haber: “there is much evidence to the contrary”), you can’t possibly be placing traditional stories with no corroborating evidence whatsoever on the same plane as documented history? Well, I guess you can.
Let’s look at it another way. It is you who would like to convince “non-believers” that your myths are the “gospel” truth, thereby strengthening the Jewish claim to Palestine (or so you think). The onus is therefore on you to provide evidence that the myth is historical fact. If the best you can do is the absence of proof to the contrary (which is not even the case here), it’s time to try a different approach, instead of grumbling about “typical leftist” iconoclasm.
“Why don’t we return to Ur?”
Who ur you kidding?
“The exodus from Egypt and the exile of the Jews can only ever be proven to be correct.”
Unlike your writing.
“On the other hand saying that these stories are myths, can never be proven and are just hot air designed to destroy, break down what others have, which is typical from those on the left.”
Well, if you want to admit that ultimately, all you’ve got is a bunch of stupid stories buttressing a criminal society, ideology and state, that’s your business.
You’re quite right about Josephus’ evidence on first century events, of course. His testimony about the Temple, making the claims about the Western Wall as part of the Temple quite doubtful particularly in the light of the V.Gratus coin discoveries, also deserve attention. Ideas gain strength, I suppose, from having stood the test of time and criticism but not from having merely passed through time in a situation where critique was never attempted. The latter invites sceptical questioning.
I don’t know what books you’d recommend? I think quite highly, for events all the way from Exodus to the days beyond Bar Kochba, the Oxford History of the Biblical World. Good, though very conservative. ‘The Quest for the Historical Israel’ by Finkelstein and Mazar is about 7 years old now but still shows how much useful historical research can be done.
“Many did stay, many were forced to leave and many were butchered by the Romans.”
I guess they got some of your close relatives, giladg, who had just flown in from the steppes and arrived at the abattoir? Imagine that, from Vladivostok to Palestine to end up a rump roast! Well, you said they were “butchered”!
Critical analysis of the records or seeming records of ancient history is perfectly possible and happens all the time, sometimes making them seem plausible, sometimes not. It happens to Herodotus and Homer, it happens to the Bible, it happens to Confucian records of the Chinese kingdoms.
“iconoclasm.”
You wanna talk “iconoclasm” Shmuel? Okay then, show me the man, or the people, for that matter, who get all het up about ‘graven images’. There is the foul misbegetting of the tendency to smash idols! And who was it, I ask you, who made it their business to destroy the visible, living symbols of God and….oh whoops, sorry. Let’s just forget it.
Klaus says: “giladg -
Why didn’t the Jews stay in Palestine during Roman times?
If they had stayed there would be no need to return.”
By and large, ‘the Jews’ did stay there. They are there. They just changed faiths — and are now Palestinians.
…all of giladg’s ‘narrative’ is crap, and I no more see the reason to lend validity to any of it than I would see the need to grant to a Nazi the validity of Hitler’s claim to the Ukraine.
“Why don’t we return to Ur?”
“Who ur you kidding?”
Where the hell are The Moderators? That one, as my Dad used to say, (an expression which mystified me at the time) was “strictly from hunger”.
“destroy, break down … typical from those on the left” – giladg
—————————————————————-
Look Gilad -
This must be due to a psychological defect of the Jews on the left:
- self-hate-
But you should consider something else – and I don’t say this for polemical reasons: Your approach to the ‘history’ of the Jewish people may be due to a collective pathology, an illusion – antagonism to facts – that can be more self-destructive than what you blame the left for.
Gulag-g,
You have no relatives going back 3k years and to pretend to feel some deep connection to those Jews is something so pretentious that its beyond pretentious. I know, it’s Zionist.
You and hoppy must be having mental breakdowns every other second when you make these psychic connections.
“The exodus from Egypt and the exile of the Jews can only ever be proven to be correct.”
Nonsense. The absence of evidence where we would expect it to be is evidence that it did not occur. The fact is, that if that event occurred, the evidence would be overwhelming. The fact that we have found absolutely nothing, coupled with the fact that it is wholly consistent with being a typical cultural fairy story, common to every culture on earth, is fairly conclusive.
“Or if it is clear to all that G-d has revealed himself once again.”
LMAO. Or we might all believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. Grow up.
“On the other hand saying that these stories are myths, can never be proven and are just hot air designed to destroy, break down what others have,”
Yes, and it is a good thing, too. These stories are morally reprehensible. The only thing that is being broken down is the vile, evil, racist ideas of “promised land” and “Chosen people” which, even today, is being used to harm and oppress the Palestinians. That religious rot should be put in the dung heap along with “Master Race” and “White Man’s Burden” as racist relics of barbarians.
Gilad -
Let me add somthing on the matter of Jewish-Israeli “collective pathology”.
Germany had something like that following Hitler. After initial success, it ended in self-destruction. – My mother, me and my brother and sister nearly drowned in the Baltic See. – Do you want to drown in the desert sand of Palestine or the Mediterranian See?
“what would motivate non-Jews to get involved in Jewish ethnic and/or religious nationalism when they emphatically reject ethnic and/or religious nationalism as a political tool for themselves?”
And once again, your assumption are wrong. It’s simply incorrect to assert that people reject ethnic nationalism. Virtually every Western state, outside of the United States, has some predominant ethnic group and is built around that ethnic group. In Europe particularly, virtually none have built societies where there is true multiculturalism free from serious racism. In each of these countries, Muslims, among other ethnic groups, face serious discrimination.
“Haven’t Zionists pretty much separated themselves from the entire world (a theme, by the way, that looms large in traditional Judaism)? Israel is already close to being an international pariah.”
No and no. Israel is harshly criticized, but it’s far from being an international pariah. It does business with virtually every nation in the world. It is frequented by tourists from all over the world. Boycott efforts have been almost a complete failure. Stop lying to yourself.
“Do you see me haranguing you about my ethnic and/or religious nationalist demands and needs? No, you do not.”
You don’t have the problems other have, so why would you have a need to worry?
“If I *were* motivated by ethnic and/or religious nationalism (and I am not), I wouldn’t bug you about it. ”
You don’t know that. If you were part of a community of a few million people, and you had lost many your relatives and co-religionists to the gas chambers and other Nazi horrors, you would have the same worries.
“If you were part of a community of a few million people, and you had lost many your relatives and co-religionists to the gas chambers and other Nazi horrors, you would have the same worries.”
Yeah! And what makes it worse, the 1940′s Nazi Holocaust was worrying Zionists at the turn of the century, years earlier. With a historical sensitivity like that, well, you might get a little extreme, too.
Hoppy said:
And once again, your assumption are wrong. It’s simply incorrect to assert that people reject ethnic nationalism. Virtually every Western state, outside of the United States, has some predominant ethnic group and is built around that ethnic group. In Europe particularly, virtually none have built societies where there is true multiculturalism free from serious racism. In each of these countries, Muslims, among other ethnic groups, face serious discrimination.
——-
Israel is a recent creation.
Europe as we know it is not a recent creation.
Muslims in Europe are not facing the same discrimination across the board. It’s different and similar but no one case is exactly the same.
Furthermore, the Palestinians are not immigrants – unlike your thieving ancestors.
Hence, whatever discrimination your cult inflicts upon the rightful owners of ‘the Land of Israel’/Palestine is to be factored into this sloppy generalization of yours that seeks to whitewash Israeli criminality.
That’s all you’re intellectually capable up. Thank god too, otherwise the stereotype that Jews are ‘smart’ might be bolstered with your every utterance!
Hoppy said:
No and no. Israel is harshly criticized, but it’s far from being an international pariah. It does business with virtually every nation in the world. It is frequented by tourists from all over the world. Boycott efforts have been almost a complete failure. Stop lying to yourself.
—
Israel is a pariah State. The business community doesn’t care about morality. It doesn’t care about right or wrong. And throughout history, much worse human rights violators have been able to keep on keepin’ on in spite of being Genghis Khan States.
What we are talking about is everyday people, not what Max Shreck thinks. Then again, like the weasel you are – you weasel-word the context here.
Boycotts haven’t been a failure in any meaningful context.
In fact, it’s easy to boycott Iran or start some random astroturf Zionist front-group that pretends to care about the human rights of Iranian / Syrian / Libyan / Egyptian / etc. people.
It’s not so easy when you’re fighting a mini-Empire whose allied with the world’s only superpower.
Palestinian solidarity has to contend with the politics of antisemitism above anything else, when it comes down to the civilian-side of the interaction activists face. That is the main psychological and rhetorical and societal roadblock. When non-Jews overcome your Holocaust guilt-tripping laden with identity politik Jewish supremacy (I.e. Jews are eternal victims/übermensch [education/Nobel prizes/Israel the start-up miracle and/or desert-bloom-meme and related bullshit), then and only then will Palestinian solidarity be better equipped (psychologically and emotionally) to deal with these so-called failure.
Change happens slowly over time. That is history. Israel’s history has been nothing but crimes and lies and war. All in such a short amount of time too.
People like you are so naturally talented at lying and being dishonest though, so you don’t put the victories in context (i.e ‘seven Arab armies attacked a nascent Jewish State while it was in the cradle’ hasbarat meme and other like-minded nonsense).
Once again, you should peddle your bullshit elsewhere hoppy.
Answer this question, giladg: what do the Palestinians have to do for you to be satisfied?
giladg -
You appear to be concerned with the lack of opportunity for Israel to present its case or arguments in the tribunal hearings – as you appear to be an indefatigable supporter and advocate for Israel’s actions and policies, perhaps you might want to take this opportunity to advance those arguments on the issue in question:
“US Complicity and UN Failings in Dealing with Israel’s Violations of International Law Toward the Palestinian People.”
“No hard question have been posed in the direction of the Palestinians. They can do no wrong in the eyes of the Russel Tribunal faithful.”
Yeah, I find that strange too! How dare they try to move when the boot is firmly posed on their necks?!! Chutzpah!
giladg, still trying to put lipstick on a pig, would not live one day in a Gazan’s shoes, just in a home he possibly lives in that once belonged to a Palestinian who was ethnically cleansed out to Gaza (most Gazans were originally from what is now western Israel).
“.. would not live one day in a Gazan’s shoes..”
Blake may have good reason.
link to 972mag.com
“Hamas was also established under Israel’s aegis and with its encouragement.” Dr Reuven Pedatzur – a senior lecturer at the Strategic Studies Program, Tel Aviv University,16 August 2004.
Without Zionist Israel there would not have been Hamas. Without Zionist Israel there would be no siege on Gaza and no need for a resistance, however meek it is.
proudzionist777
What are you proud of today?
That zionists supported Hamas for a long time and helped to create the Hamas that you now hate?
Are you proud of creating what you now think is a monster?
Just for the record I did reply but that comment did not pass moderation. the reply had something to do with who created Hamas.
@Mndwss
@Blake
Israel created Hamas. Swell talking point.
But can you prove it?
You prove it and I give Mondoweiss an $18 donation.
@Blake
Hamas is political Islam and it’s mentor is the Moslem Brotherhood. Political Islam is a worldwide phenomena and Israel could not have stopped the idea of political Islam from taking root in Gaza. Israel let Sheik Yassin grow his social help network after the sheik began stockpiling weapons, Israel throw him into jail. The rest is history.
For now, I’m keeping my money in my pocket.
@ PZ777
You’re a demanding lot. There’s a collegue of yours on this very page who is demanding proof for the fact that the Exodus did not happen, so why don’t you prove Israel did not create Hamas? Afterwards we ask Phil to prove you made your donation.
Talking of such – actually I believe that you’ve been pampered and taken care of for a lot more than a lousy eighteen bucks, right? I mean, Mooser’s attention alone … So how about pumping it up a bit?
RE: “In 1985, as Black South Africans together with their allies globally rallied against Apartheid, President Reagan continued to sing the praises of our unique ally in Africa.” ~ the Russell Tribunal
MY COMMENT: The old “constructive engagement” paradigm! ! !
The U.S. essentially uses the same (ineffective) strategy with Israel, thereby allowing Israel to eat lots and lots of “carrot stew”*.
FROM WIKIPEDIA [Constructive engagement]:
SOURCE – link to en.wikipedia.org
* FROM foreignaffairs.com: “South Africa: Why Constructive Engagement Failed”, By Sanford J. Ungar and Peter Vale, Winter 1985/86
SOURCE – link to foreignaffairs.com
giladg says: “The Russel Tribunal in Cape Town allocated a huge half hour on the third day, a few hours before closing remarks, for a representative of the Israeli government to present its case.”
Given that there isn’t a case to present, half an hour would seem to be more than adequate. Did the representative show, and was he actually able to invent enough material to fill the half hour?
Hell. I’ve still got my challenge out there for anyone to write one hundred straight words in defense of Israel without lying — and you think some one could go on for half an hour?
No way, dude. Couldn’t happen.
colin wright
my defence of israel does not need “straight words”-as long as israel can win wars it does not need defending.
its that simple
“my defence of israel does not need “straight words”-as long as israel can win wars it does not need defending.”
Yup, every Zionist is ready to fight down to the last Jew for Israel. And when the reserves are used up, hit ‘em with the remnant.
I mean, what the hell, Zionists have alway believed there are, in spite of the Holocaust, too many Jews, and any number can be wasted in war, as Long as Zionism and Israel survives. Jews? They can always make more.
wes says: ‘colin wright
my defence of israel does not need “straight words”-as long as israel can win wars it does not need defending.
its that simple’
Sorry. 1. Untrue. 2. As you yourself admit, not actually a defense. 3. Well short of a hundred words.
Except that to win the unnecessary wars it creates itself it turns every time to the US taxpayer with its begging bowl. its that simple.
“Except that to win the unnecessary wars it creates itself it turns every time to the US taxpayer with its begging bowl. its that simple.”
And what are American taxpayers supposed to fill it with, semen? Might be instructive to calculate tho total manpower available to the Israeli military within certain age groups. Not to mention levels of military experience.
Of course, there’s always nuclear weapons.
Ah, what a glorious destiny Zionism brings to the Jewish people!
Why are you posting on this blog if Israel can win wars? We all know that no military power is going to fight Israel and liberate the Palestinians.
This is a slow conflict and the abuses are many but stretch on over years and years as opposed to something like the conflict in Syria with its spike-damage death tolls.
Slowly removing a bunch of Arabs from the good land and land that the colonizer wants is much more effective it seems than just killing everyone and moving in.
Different strokes for different folks (different variables and pressures).
as long as israel can win wars it does not need defending.
which perfectly explains why wes wastes his time here/NOT.
“No impartiality can be expected from participants like Alice.” impartiality is not what anyone aspires to in struggles against racist settler colonial movements.
gamal says: ““No impartiality can be expected from participants like Alice.” impartiality is not what anyone aspires to in struggles against racist settler colonial movements.”
Yeah. The verdict came in quite a while back. Besides, Israel has had over sixty five years to plead her case — and has yet to make a decent point.
Thanks Alex/MW for providing the live link for this tribunal. Been most informative.
I have a recommendation for the Palestinians. As always said about the Palestinians, they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. And so it seems to be going with the Russell Tribunal kangaroo court. The emerging theme from the talks is that apartheid is not the vehicle they will be using (or exclusively using) and a new concept is on the books, “sociocide”. Israel has squashed Palestinian time and space. It is very strange for me as I know something about Palestinian society. Allison is currently in Ramallah. I am sure she could attest that life in Ramallah does not connect with the concept of “sociocide”, in any way. Allison?
So what I suggest to the Palestinians is to make peace with Israel and the Jewish people. Accept that there is a Jewish history and heritage. Agree to a demilitarized West Bank, with special access to Jerusalem. If the Palestinians do this, a situation will develop whereby they will regain all their time and space. The current Palestinian leadership, led by the kangaroos at Russell, are offering nothing for the next Palestinian generations. For whatever reason and whoever is responsible, there are Palestinian villages that will never be rebuilt. The homes are not there any more. It’s time to move on and give the next generations a better life.
Demilitarized West Bank? And will Israel then leave it?
Yes it will. will the Palestinians sign a peace agreement ?
No Israel won’t.
The Palestine papers have demonstrated already that Israel is not an honest partner for peace. It was already known long before the reveal but the info leak just cemented what people familiar with the region who weren’t Islamophobes, right-wing Western nationalists, Christian eschatologists, ZioBots, etc. etc. already knew.
Didn’t you say giladg: “They can do this without having to give up on what they see as their rights.”? And now you are saying that they should not have the right to defend themselves? Which is it to be?
giladg October 7, 2012 at 5:07 pm
“As always said about the Palestinians, they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”
Always a pleasure to see you here and thanks again for the opportunity to show other folk just how stupid your rhetoric is. Great job… keep it up…
What opportunity was that? Whilst under the control in part or wholly of another entity, one is not independent and can not declare independence. When was the last time the Palestinians were not partially or wholly under the control of another entity? link to wp.me … In fact there has never been an opportunity to miss.
Meanwhile, because of the marvels of the Zionist colonization program, Jews are no longer able to settle anywhere in Palestine … link to wp.me … unless of course they become Palestinian citizens.
“It is very strange for me as I know something about Palestinian society”
BS from the holey olde Hasbara bible is not ‘knowing’ anything but BS
“So what I suggest to the Palestinians is to make peace with Israel and the Jewish people.”
The Israeli / Egypt Peace Treaty didn’t come into effect until AFTER Israel withdrew from ALL of Egypt’s territory. Contrary to the Hasbara “land for peace”, it was actually “Peace for Withdrawal” link to wp.me
“Agree to a demilitarized West Bank”
Why? Will Israel agree to demilitarize? What gives Israel the right to more security than its neighbours or for that matter what gives Israel the right to more secure borders than its neighbours? link to wp.me
“For whatever reason and whoever is responsible, there are Palestinian villages that will never be rebuilt. The homes are not there any more. It’s time to move on and give the next generations a better life.”
3,000 years ago the Romans took over … time to move on .. no? Or do you think it’s reasonable for Jews who are allegedly returning, to have to PAY the Israeli Government and selected developers for for Palestinian land illegally acquired by war and or illegally annexed since Israeli independence from Palestine May 15th 1948 ? link to wp.me
” It’s time to move on and give the next generations a better life”
OK. End the occupation, return the territory illegally acquired by war, get all the Israeli citizens out of Palestine and back into Israel, demilitarize, pay compensation, allow legitimate RoR under UNGA res 194. (written before UNRWA came into existence BTW) link to wp.me
After all they are the Palestinians rights under law. That’s all they have ever asked for, their rights under the law.
Under the same laws, Israel has only rights within its sovereign extent as recognized by the Israeli Govt May 22nd 1948 and as recognized by the internationally community. (“within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″) link to wp.me
Why? Will Israel agree to demilitarize?
Again Yes…… will the Palestinians sign a peace agreement period !
End the occupation, return the territory illegally acquired by war (That Jordan Started) , get all the Israeli citizens out of Palestine (You mean the west bank that belonged to Jordan).
will the Palestinians sign a peace agreement period !
OR you got more…….. and More Or……….
yrn October 8, 2012 at 11:03 am
Thanks for the opportunity to show other folk how empty your Hasbarrow is … keep up the good work!
//Will Israel agree to demilitarize?//
Again Yes…… “
Uh huh. You do realize what demilitarize means…no IDF!
“will the Palestinians sign a peace agreement period !”
Why? Israel was recognized whilst at war, outside the State of Israel!
There is no legal pre-requisite to sign a peace agreement, especially as the state of Israel has illegally acquired by war over half the territories allotted the new Arab State. Peace agreements require withdrawal first
//End the occupation, return the territory illegally acquired by war//
“(That Jordan Started) “
I guess there’d be a UNSC resolution condemning Jordan. Bet you can’t find it! Another hole in the holey olde Hasbara … LOL!
” (You mean the west bank that belonged to Jordan)”
Jordan only acted as a trustee only (Session: 12-II Date: May 1950)
The West Bank as it was officially re-named, was annexed legally,at the request of the Palestinians.
There is no UNSC resolution condemning the annexation, unlike: Israel’s illegal annexation of East Jerusalem UNSC res 252 (1968) of 21 May 1968, 267 (1969) of 3 July 1969, 271 (1969) of 15 September 1969, 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971, 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980, 476 June 30 1980 and 478 August 20 1980, UNSC Resolution 1860 (2009)
BTW Jordan handed it back to the Palestinians. Read the Israeli/Jordanian Peace Agreement!
No points to the holey olde Hasbara, just more and more holes
@Gilidg, I take this to mean you will keep murdering and beating up the Palestinians until they agree that there is a “Jewish history and heritage” by which I suppose you mean all of Palestine is the “heritage” of the Jews, and furthermore Jews have the “right” expel non-Jews from their homes and take their property if they so choose?
I’m sure no one will disagree that there is a “Jewish history.” I don’t speak for Palestinians, but some letters written by them prior to the onslaught by zionists speak with a certain pride of the Jewish history in Palestine. By saying there’s a “Jewish heritage,” are you saying that because God gave it to them or there was a Jewish kingdom in Palestine some 2000 years ago, it now belongs to the Jews? Even though almost all the people who God would have given it to, and inhabitants of that “Jewish” kingdom of 2000 years ago, later became Christians of Muslims whose descendants are today’s Palestinians?
Why do you think because you have such a large religious attachment to a particular territory, it gives you the “right” to murder or expel the people who’d been living there for so many 1000s of years to claim your “heritage”?
galadg says: “I have a recommendation for the Palestinians…”
Given the source, the Palestinians would be well-advised to disregard your recommendation.
bennis is hot:US domination of UN
Thanks Alex. Very useful and informative to have such a comprehensive presentation available all at one time.
The Russell Tribunal epitomizes a spiteful anti-Israel sickness that has no other intention than to mount a campaign to delegitimize, demonize and destroy Israel in any way possible. The Palestinians are painted as hopeless victims with no responsibility for their sorry demise.
On the streaming TV I watched old fogey left overs from the Vietnam war and anti-South African eras trying to milk some venom from the dying carcass of the defunct left wing socialist vanguard. Yearning for the good old days when they had some popular following.
All this self-congratulatory, farcical rhetoric toying with legal gobbledegook that ultimately means nothing in the real scheme of things. I noted there was only a small number of viewers of the telecast – very few are interested in watching a piece of idiotic, absurdist theatre, Orwellian in nature.
The remark towards the end from one of the last black speakers referring to the 6 million (sic) refugees that were “forced to flee” from Palestine.
You’ve got to be joking.
If it means nothing why do you spend all of this time composing a bucket of vitriol about it?
Mayhem October 7, 2012 at 8:28 pm
“The Russell Tribunal epitomizes a spiteful anti-Israel sickness that has no other intention than to mount a campaign to delegitimize, demonize and destroy Israel in any way possible”
Seems haven’t even seen it
“The Russell Tribunal epitomizes a spiteful anti-Israel sickness that has no other intention than to mount a campaign to delegitimize, demonize and destroy Israel in any way possible”
“giladg” I could have told you that this would happen if you did certain things. But did you ever, once, ask my advice? Noooo! And now look, you’ve got people mounting a campaign to “delegitimize, demonize and destroy Israel in any way possible” But for the sake of brevity (which, as you might know, is the very soul of wit.) why don’t we just call it the ’3-D’ campaign. Remember, giladg, it’s the hit that counts, not the length of the comment.
Mayhem October 7, 2012 at 8:28 pm
“.. legal gobbledegook that ultimately means nothing in the real scheme of things”
Really? For something that “ultimately means nothing in the real scheme of things” Israel spends an inordinate amount of time and money maintaining the precious US veto vote in the UNSC, because faced with the consequences of the laws Israel obliged itself to uphold, it would be sent bankrupt for decades as it attempted to relocate hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens back into Israel and as it attempted to compensate the Palestinians for the crimes committed against them in the last 64 years.
Why do you think Israel demands negotiations? Why not just illegally annex what it has illegally acquired by war? In order to circumvent something that “ultimately means nothing in the real scheme of things” it is Israel who must negotiate its way out of the sh*t hole it has created for itself and the US veto vote in the UNSC is the ONLY thing protecting the Jewish State from the law.
That precious precious veto vote. Lose it and Israel is legally stuffed! All those illegal eggs in one fragile basket
great work alex. thanks
Thanks, Alex, for alerting us to this.
I wish I had understood you were streaming this all the time. At least I got the second day completely. Somehow I didn’ get the first, which may have resulted from the fact I read the links in the caption beneath the video, which you probably meant as an acknowledgement, as sources I had to subscribe to.
As an “old bag”, I may not be anybody one should pay attention to, but the usual standard process on Livestream offers with its forced process of first selecting your interests ultimately put me off. Plus, I do not understand why, once I was subscribed, admittedly without completing the process, the search for “Russel Tribunal” did not get me a result.
So please, yes admittedly I only scanned your article, and here I have to admit I did not read your text, be so kind and have us elder citizens in mind in the future. Yes, shame on me, I wasn’t 100% percent concentrated on the whole text of your alert. But why was the precise time frame so hard to find out. Am I blind? Or is it all my bad conscience that I have to finish some urgent work first?
I of course would be pleased, if someone could point out to me, I am completely mistaken and why it was easy to realize, I could watch it here. And if I would only have finished reading the article, not just scanning it, there would have been the time too. I’d especially appreciate what special visual signals I missed. Not only old, but close to blind too, maybe. ;)