‘The Onion’ uses the k-word

Israel/Palestine
on 101 Comments

the-onion-logo

People are talking about the fact that The Onion used the word “kike” to mock the refusal by Dan Snyder to change the name of the Washington Redskins. Snyder is Jewish, and the Onion headlines its story, “Redskins’ Kike Owner Refuses To Change Team’s Offensive Name.” The story also uses the epithet “hook-nosed kike” and “shifty-eyed Hebe.”

Redskins is a slur for Native Americans, so the Onion is satirizing in a good cause (the same cause Lawrence O’Donnell has taken up on MSNBC, also citing Snyder’s Jewishness). But the story has made some uncomfortable, among them the JTA, whose story is headlined, “The Onion deploys Jewish slurs to skewer Redskins owner;” the Atlantic Wire, which is ambivalent about the usage– “journalists have been unsure how to discuss the story and whether it crosses the line or not, while still retweeting the story link”– and Salon, which seems to think it’s OK in the end. “Though the first reaction for many… was shock, it seemed that some self-identified Jewish journalists didn’t seem to mind. In fact, they actually enjoyed it…” (Further evidence of the decay of the Jewish establishment.)

Max Blumenthal explained to me that the Onion is not being condemned because it has made an important point:

“An already widely reviled corporate titan who happens to be Jewish has mounted the most aggressive PR campaign in recent history to defend slurs against Native Americans, the victims of an ongoing genocide, cheapening slurs against historically oppressed groups in general. Of course Snyder would be furious if Auschwitz inmates were recast as professional sports mascots. The subversive impact of the Onion’s satire derives from that hypocrisy.”

One thing everyone agrees on is that the story is increasing pressure on Snyder, whose stance is indefensible (and linked to the fact that his fan-base is southern).

Another angle of interest on this story is that the ADL, which has suggested that the team’s name be changed, has shown great deference to Snyder in this statement saying it’s up to the ownership and the “fan base:”

the decision to change the name should come from the team’s ownership with input from the fan base. It is up to them to decide to let go of this hurtful tradition.

But when Qatari officials chose to remove an Israeli flag from outside an aquatic center during a swimming tournament earlier this week, the ADL showed no such deference, condemning them out of hand for the decision.

101 Responses

  1. German Lefty
    October 24, 2013, 1:11 pm

    People are talking about the fact that The Onion has used the word “kike” in a satirical article.

    Oh, my assumption was that the K-word you mean is “kushi”. I had to look up “kike”.
    Honestly, I don’t understand the fuss about the term “redskins”. To me, it sounds like a neutral word.
    In Germany, Romani people want to ban the name of the dish “Zigeunerschnitzel” (gipsy schnitzel).
    link to de.wikipedia.org
    link to img.dooyoo.de
    In an online survey, 86% of Germans think that this is silly. I agree.
    link to haz.de
    I wonder when the Viennese will start complaining that a schnitzel is named after them.

    Of course Snyder would be furious if Auschwitz inmates were recast as professional sports mascots. The subversive impact of the Onion’s satire derives from that hypocrisy.

    Oh, that’s pure speculation! As long as Snyder didn’t condemn the use of a Jewish slur in a similar way, you can’t know whether he is actually a hypocrite or not.
    I don’t think it’s okay to cite Snyder’s Jewishness and to simply make assumptions about him based on his Jewishness. If you want to prove that he has double standards, then you need to focus on what he says, not on what he is.

    • Annie Robbins
      October 24, 2013, 1:31 pm

      gl, well what he says is ‘redskins’. and there is the onion’s parallel.

      and according to ADL, wrt the onion’s use of the term kike: the decision to not use the name should come from the onion’s ownership with input from their fan base. It is up to them to decide to let go of this hurtful tradition.

      ha!

      • German Lefty
        October 24, 2013, 2:25 pm

        the decision to not use the name should come from the onion’s ownership with input from their fan base.
        Annie, that’s not comparable.
        Snyder wants to keep the name of the team because of tradition. The team has existed since 1932. Besides, the term “redskins” is not used to refer to actual Native Americans anymore. It is only used as a proper name of an American football team. So, the permitted use of the word is very, very limited.
        The Onion used the term “kike” to refer to an actual Jewish person who has shown no signs of double standards so far. That’s unacceptable.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 24, 2013, 3:51 pm

        “Snyder wants to keep the name of the team because of tradition.”

        “Tradition,” is a code word for “we Southerners don’t have a problem with our racism and don’t like the fact that you do.”

        “Besides, the term ‘redskins’ is not used to refer to actual Native Americans anymore.”

        They have a picture of a Native American as their primary symbol. They aren’t referencing a specific individual, but an entire class of people.

        “who has shown no signs of double standards so far.”

        LMAO. This is Dan Snyder you’re talking about.

      • Donald
        October 24, 2013, 5:08 pm

        “Snyder wants to keep the name of the team because of tradition. The team has existed since 1932. Besides, the term “redskins” is not used to refer to actual Native Americans anymore. It is only used as a proper name of an American football team. So, the permitted use of the word is very, very limited.”

        We’ve entered an era where white people (for a long time the dominant group in the US) no longer get to tell nonwhite people when a traditional slur word shouldn’t be offensive to them. Which means you don’t get to tell Native Americans why you as a German think “redskin” is a neutral inoffensive term.

      • German Lefty
        October 24, 2013, 5:28 pm

        Donald, I am as free to give my opinion as everyone else. My race is entirely irrelevant. Or do you believe that white people should have fewer rights than non-white people?

      • Bumblebye
        October 24, 2013, 6:08 pm

        gl
        Try imagining the name Redskins replaced with Blackskins. Still feel neutral?
        And maybe they could rename themselves Redheads. Big up for all those with ginger mops!

      • tokyobk
        October 24, 2013, 9:25 pm

        Old Miss and other universities in the South wanted to keep blacks out because of “tradition,” and while a name is not as offensive as segregation (of which by the way the founder of the Redskins was a proud proponent), the appeal to tradition is always invoked in these cases. So that argument is almost a guaranteed response by people who just aren’t listening or just don’t care.

        That Native Americans were wiped out and pushed into reservations here makes this a particularly disgusting.

        Berliner (the donut) and Wiener, even Sour Kraut (renamed Liberty Cabbage during the First War — though of course the kraut there is literal) are quite a different thing.

        “Jews Ear” an auricularia mushroom is still on the menu in some Chinese restaurants in Japan that have English menus and “N^%$R’s Toes,” Brazil Nuts — I remember an old lady that was shocked that anyone would be offended by this appellation, are quite a different thing which seems to me more like your example of Gypsy Schnitzel.

      • traintosiberia
        October 24, 2013, 10:46 pm

        Thanks

      • pabelmont
        October 25, 2013, 10:22 am

        GL: OTOH, “kike” and other words which used to be used routinely in USA as offensive slurs for Jews (and I dare say that in some circles, “Jew” was one of those terms) have so far gone out of use that comedy can appropriate them without giving (universal) offense among Jews.

        Maybe it’s an old-v-young thing, as love-of-Israel-my-country-wrong seems to be becoming.

      • Donald
        October 25, 2013, 11:33 am

        “Or do you believe that white people should have fewer rights than non-white people?”

        The issue isn’t whether you have free speech–yes, you have the right to defend bigoted language if you choose. The issue is this–members of a dominant group condescendingly telling members of an oppressed group that they shouldn’t feel insulted by an ethnic slur. Mighty white of you.

      • Annie Robbins
        October 25, 2013, 1:14 pm

        Donald, I am as free to give my opinion as everyone else. My race is entirely irrelevant. Or do you believe that white people should have fewer rights than non-white people?

        Or do you believe that native american people should have fewer rights than jewish people to decide what is offensive to them?

        who are you to say the term “redskins” is not used to refer to actual Native Americans anymore.? i could just as easily claim the term “kikes” is not used to refer to actual jews anymore. because hey, i live here and from my personal experience i don’t hear anyone referencing jews as kikes anymore, until the onion used it as a parallel that is.

        so like, it’s ok for me to say the term “kikes” is not used to refer to actual jews , not you. right? and it’s completely irrelevant what jews think about that, simply because they’re jewish? because I am as free to give my opinion as everyone else. My race is entirely irrelevant? Or do you believe that white people like me should have fewer rights than jewish-white people? i mean seriously gl, why should jews have any say on whether the term kikes is offensive or not?

        you sound like a nut gl. native americans do not like it. does that mean anything to you? or is it only jewish sensibilities that matter here, wrt the term kikes?

        and here’s yitz on the thread educating us as to how ‘Someone who uses the “k” word in any other context is trying to show hatred’ but he gets to decide what is or is not offensive to native americans. so by this standard i can just tell him that the term kike, which many have explained came from seemingly benign non-hate origins link to en.wikipedia.org is really not meant in any offensive way.

        The Yiddish word for ‘circle’ is kikel (pronounced KY-kul), and for ‘little circle,’ kikeleh (pronounced KY-kul-uh). Before long the immigration inspectors were calling anyone who signed with an ‘O’ in place of an ‘X’ a kikel or kikeleh or kikee or, finally and succinctly, kike.[2]

        According to Rosten, Jewish U.S. merchants continued to sign with an ‘O’ in place of an ‘X’ for several decades, spreading the nickname kike wherever they went as a result.

        According to the Oxford English Dictionary, it may be an alteration of the endings –ki or –ky common in the personal names of Jews in eastern Europe who immigrated to the United States in the early 20th century.[3] The first recorded use of the term is in 1904.[3][4]

        iow, just yiddish for circle, no biggie. so where’s the hate in that origin? it’s not there. it’s associated with racism because jews do not like it. so why can’t that just be respected? well, it can and is. but the same standard is not perpetuated for another group, because you get to give your opinion as everyone else? Or do you believe that native american people should have fewer rights than jewish people to decide what is offensive to them?

      • German Lefty
        October 25, 2013, 1:52 pm

        The issue is this–members of a dominant group condescendingly telling members of an oppressed group that they shouldn’t feel insulted by an ethnic slur.

        Donald, why does it matter what group I belong to? If I feel that certain people are oversensitive, then I can say so.
        Jews are not an authority on determining what anti-Semitism is. Just because certain Jews constantly claim that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic doesn’t mean that it’s actually true. Likewise, Native Americans are not an authority on determining what anti-Native American racism is. They might feel insulted by the football team’s name, but this doesn’t mean that others have to bow to their demands.
        If minority groups actually lack equal rights, then of course I support their fight for equality. However, if minority groups are oversensitive and want to “terrorise” the majority by playing word police, then this really goes too far. Recently, some black Germans seriously wanted to make us believe that a TV ad is racist for daring to mention that the advertised chocolate is white. Also, a few years ago, Tchibo and Esso had a PR campaign with the slogan “Jedem den Seinen”. The Central Council of Jews in Germany was totally outraged because the slogan happened to be similar to the words at the entrance of Buchenwald, “Jedem das Seine” (to each his own). Apparently, the Council wants this general proverb to be taboo for all eternity just because it was once misused by the Nazis. I have an idea: Why not outlaw the entire German language just to make sure that there will never ever be an accidental similarity again? Why not rename and relocate our country because once the Nazis misused its name and territory?
        I really think that Native Americans, blacks, and Jews need to get over the past discrimination. As soon as Zionism is history and justice is achieved, I also expect Palestinians to get over the Nakba and to stop whining.

      • German Lefty
        October 25, 2013, 2:05 pm

        @ Annie Robbins
        If Native Americans don’t want to be referred to as “redskins”, then of course I respect that wish. However, they do not legally own the term “redskins”. Therefore, they can’t forbid other people to apply the term to something else, e.g. a football team.
        The same goes for the term “gipsy”. If Romani people don’t want to be called this name, then I totally accept that. However, if they want to ban the “gipsy schnitzel”, then this goes too far.

      • German Lefty
        October 25, 2013, 2:15 pm

        “kike” and other words which used to be used routinely in USA as offensive slurs for Jews have so far gone out of use that comedy can appropriate them without giving (universal) offense among Jews.

        I see. Then the same should apply to “redskins” because that’s a much, much older term.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 25, 2013, 5:10 pm

        “Therefore, they can’t forbid other people to apply the term to something else, e.g. a football team.”

        No one is seeking to forbid them from using it*; they’re attempting to use social pressure to get them to change the name.

        *There was a legal case concerning the ability to trademark offensive terms, but, if I remember correctly, it was denied on technical grounds. (And even then, it wouldn’t have forbid them from using the term, it simply would have removed their trademark.)

      • Donald
        October 26, 2013, 10:05 am

        “I really think that Native Americans, blacks, and Jews need to get over the past discrimination.”

        I don’t. For one thing, it’s not all in the past–it carries over to the present. I think it’s ludicrous to talk about incidents that occurred hundreds or thousands of years ago in vastly different cultures and circumstances (note the qualification–I’m thinking of what the Romans did to the 1st century Jews, not what white Southerners did only 1 or 2 centuries ago, which still resonates today), but Native Americans and blacks still suffer from the effects of past policies, some bigotry still exists against them and it still hurts. As for American Jews, this is less true–mostly anti-semitism has been reduced to stupid prejudice from individuals and occasional acts of vandalism by idiots but it’s no longer a systemic problem. This is not true in other parts of the world, including, I gather, parts of Europe (Hungary, for example). Where I do agree is that members of a group that has suffered oppression shouldn’t use this as an excuse to oppress others, as the Zionists have done. And they shouldn’t use the accusation of antisemitism as a tactic to bully critics of Israel, as Rosenberg is doing.

        “As soon as Zionism is history and justice is achieved, I also expect Palestinians to get over the Nakba and to stop whining.”

        Yeah, but it’s not always so easy to say when justice has been achieved, and it’s common for the oppressing group to reach that conclusion far too early.
        Southern whites where I grew up thought blacks should have gotten over Jim Crow literally one or two years after the “white” and “colored” signs came off the drinking fountains.

      • German Lefty
        October 26, 2013, 12:08 pm

        No one is seeking to forbid them from using it*; they’re attempting to use social pressure to get them to change the name.

        Well, they try to use force to remove the name. That’s pretty much the same as seeking to forbid the name. The result would be exactly the same. They act as if they owned the term “redskins” and don’t tolerate that it is applied to something else.

      • Donald
        October 27, 2013, 1:06 pm

        “They act as if they owned the term “redskins” and don’t tolerate that it is applied to something else.”

        Your argument, such as it is, means that it would be okay to use any offensive ethnic slur whatsoever, and if someone uses social pressure to get them to change it’s a horrible violation of civil liberties.

      • Yitzgood
        October 27, 2013, 2:41 pm

        it’s associated with racism because jews do not like it. so why can’t that just be respected? well, it can and is. but the same standard is not perpetuated for another group, because you get to give your opinion as everyone else? Or do you believe that native american people should have fewer rights than jewish people to decide what is offensive to them?

        I think educated native speakers of English are likely to have valid opinions about the connotations of English words and expressions. “Spud” for Potato is fairly neutral while”Dago” for Italian person is hostile and insulting. I don’t think it is merely a matter of someone taking offence or not although that bears some weight. I do some work in Utah and I have learned that it is a better idea to use “LDS” than “Mormon.” Do you now feel obligated, if you didn’t know that already, to now only use “LDS”? I’ve seen articles about the Redskin controversy that suggest that most Native Americans are not offended. You could even read the Onion piece as weighing in against changing the name “Redskins.” Maybe the message is “You want offensive? I’ll show you offensive.” I’m not so adamant about my opinion on the word “Redskins,” however. As I said, I don’t think contemproary performances of the Mikado by Gilbert and Sullivan should use the “n” word. Maybe if someone writes something really persuasive, I will change my mind on “Redskins.” Anyway, I’ll ask you the same question I asked Tanaka. What do you think of the song “Never be rude to an Arab” by the Monty Python team. It seems to me that it is playing racism for laughs in the same way as the Onion piece. If I am not correct, why not?

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 28, 2013, 6:50 am

        No one is using force to get the to change the name; they’re using social pressure.

      • MRW
        October 24, 2013, 3:44 pm

        annie, thanks for the laugh.

      • Yitzgood
        October 24, 2013, 8:51 pm

        There is a song on a Monty Python about how you should never be rude to an Irishman, and it goes on naming other nationalities. Finally you come to the line “never poke fun at a ni—r.” The Onion is doing the same thing. It is incredibly tasteless and offensive, but they can claim that being incredibly tasteless is part of their shtick. I don’t think they are offering it as a good analogy. Someone who uses the “k” word in any other context is trying to show hatred. A better analogy is that British Soccer team that calls itself the Yids. Speaking as a Frum Yid, I officially give my berachah and haskomah (blessing and approbation) to that soccer team. “Redskins” is just the name of a sports team to most people, as someone said already. The word just doesn’t have the same baggage as certain other terms. So to sum up: I’m OK with the Pythons, OK with the Onion (but for a different reason than you are), OK with the Yids, and OK with the Redskins. (W. S. Gilbert is OK, too. He did not originally write “the banjo serenader and the others of his race–I don’t think he’ll be missed”–he used the “N” word. In more contemporary times it was a good idea to substitute “banjo,” however. A little political correctness is OK also–in moderation.)

      • eljay
        October 25, 2013, 1:26 pm
      • Woody Tanaka
        October 25, 2013, 5:17 pm

        “So to sum up: I’m OK with the Pythons, OK with the Onion (but for a different reason than you are), OK with the Yids, and OK with the Redskins.”

        Wow, a zio who’s okay with racism. Who would have thought it possible????

      • Cliff
        October 26, 2013, 6:05 am

        yitz said:

        I don’t think they are offering it as a good analogy. Someone who uses the “k” word in any other context is trying to show hatred.

        BS. They are using the K word to demonstrate HYPOCRISY – that the Jewish owner has no problem with an overtly racist label (REDSKINS) in spite of the fact that Jews have been persecuted throughout history.

        How about the New York BIG NOSES as an analogy to RED SKINS?

        It’s so bizarre how Zionists like you have no problem with other forms of hatred (and often express them) but when it comes to Jewish identity, EVEN when the alleged ‘hatred’ is expressed to prove a point, you boil it down to latent antisemitism.

        So you’re saying The Onion is antisemitic. You’re incompetent.

        The word just doesn’t have the same baggage as certain other terms.

        More BS. The Native American population has been nearly exterminated. There’s plenty of casual racism against them and this is an example. It may not seem as venomous to you since you’re only concerned with Jewish blah blah.

      • Yitzgood
        October 26, 2013, 10:31 pm

        Wow, a zio who’s okay with racism. Who would have thought it possible????

        So you condemn the song “Never be rude to an Arab” by Monty Python? It was on the Contractual Obligation Album.

      • Yitzgood
        October 26, 2013, 10:35 pm

        So you’re saying The Onion is antisemitic. You’re incompetent.

        No, I said they are doing something analogous to the song “Never be rude to an Arab” by Monty Python. Your reading comprehension needs work.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 28, 2013, 6:58 am

        “So you condemn the song “Never be rude to an Arab” by Monty Python? It was on the Contractual Obligation Album.”

        Don’t flatter yourself into thinking you’re competent to assume my position on that, zio. (Especially so obscure record from an old-timey comedy troupe). My only statement is that it’s to be expected that a zio like you is okay with racism.

    • Woody Tanaka
      October 24, 2013, 2:31 pm

      “I don’t understand the fuss about the term “redskins”. To me, it sounds like a neutral word.”

      No, it’s a slur.

      “Oh, that’s pure speculation! As long as Snyder didn’t condemn the use of a Jewish slur in a similar way, you can’t know whether he is actually a hypocrite or not.”

      Oh, Snyder has a history. After a tour-de-force expose in Washington City Paper demonstrated how Snyder is a complete and utter tool, he complained that the intentionally juvenine-style defecing of his picture (which a pen bushy eyebrows, mustache, beard and horns) was somehow “antisemitic.”

      • German Lefty
        October 24, 2013, 3:43 pm

        Oh, Snyder has a history. After a tour-de-force expose in Washington City Paper demonstrated how Snyder is a complete and utter tool, he complained that the intentionally juvenine-style defecing of his picture was somehow “antisemitic.”

        Okay, that’s a new piece of information for me. Obviously, he’s paranoid when it comes to anti-Semitism. Now, I can see that he has double standards. I think that Lawrence O’Donnell and The Onion should have made a reference to that incident.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 24, 2013, 4:11 pm

        “Okay, that’s a new piece of information for me.”

        Yeah, I figured that was the case. I found the Onion article distasteful and rather ham-handed in its execution, but not because of anything to do with Dan Snyder as a person.

      • Yitzgood
        October 26, 2013, 10:36 pm

        I found the Onion article distasteful and rather ham-handed in its execution

        It was trying to be ham-handed. That’s the whole point. You might call it comic over-kill.

    • Memphis
      October 24, 2013, 4:04 pm

      How bout we change the team to the Washington Niggers, or any other racist term. I used nigger to illustrate a point, it has been called the most noxious epithet in the english language. I really doubt anyone would come to the defence of a team named that, so why would anyone come to the defence of “redskin”

      You don’t see the fuss? the word is highly racist and derogatory.

    • thankgodimatheist
      October 24, 2013, 5:48 pm

      “I wonder when the Viennese will start complaining that a schnitzel is named after them.”
      They won’t because neither Viennese nor schnitzel are slurs. On the other hand “Zigeunerschnitzel” is because of the Zigeuner/Tzigane.
      “Zigeuner”, an imprecise exonym for several groups, is a word loaded with mostly negative or sometimes Romantic connotations. It has been used to designate ethnic groups like the Roma and cultural movements like the Bohemian movement of nonconformist artists.[4] The Central Council of German Sinti and Roma rejects the use of “Zigeuner” as a designation for the Roma, regarding it as racist and as having been discredited by the Nazis’ use of it.”
      link to en.wiktionary.org

    • thetruthhurts
      October 24, 2013, 11:30 pm

      phil,
      i absolutely swear to God!
      this afternoon about 2:00 i was thinking about the indian on the redskins helmut and how brutally insulting it is! this is all the more remarkable because i have absolutely no interest in the redskins whatsoever and just a mere passing interest in pro football. why i thought about this is totally beyond me but i distinctly remember picturing the logo in my mind thinking how in the year 2013 the skins management is long overdue in its insensity to the natives and that it should be changed.
      i also remember thinking how would the ‘blacks”(is that the politically correct term today?) like it if there was a logo on the washington team’s helmut of a black man and the team was called the niggers but i certainly didn’t think of the jewish connection esp using kikes.
      how bout this idea. palestinians start demolishing rich jewish homes like adelsons and the team owners and see how they like it.

    • Theo
      October 25, 2013, 10:07 am

      lefty

      The whole world could start complaining about such names as: hamburger, frankfurter, hungarian gulash, french toast, greek salat, etc., etc.
      On the other hand, I cannot see any problems with changing the name of a football club, after all it means nothing to a great part of this world and the fans would not like it less with another name.

      The gypsies came to Europe about 800 years ago and were always called gypsies!!
      I find it ridiculous that now we should call them “the Roma”, although they have absolutely nothing to do with the romans or the Roman Empire, as they came from India.

      It is great that the world has no greater problems!!

      • Shmuel
        October 26, 2013, 4:58 am

        I find it ridiculous that now we should call them “the Roma”, although they have absolutely nothing to do with the romans or the Roman Empire

        The name “Roma” has nothing to do with Romans or the Roman Empire, but derives from a word in the Romani language.

        It is great that the world has no greater problems!!

        I don’t know about the world, but the Roma and Sinti have some very serious problems, including the ignorance and prejudice of surrounding societies. The names “Gypsies”, “Zigeuner”, “zingari”, etc. are an integral part of that ignorance and prejudice, with considerable historical “baggage”. Their struggle against ignorance and prejudice includes claiming the right to be called by a name of their choosing that accurately represents their identity and origins, rather than being subject to the fantasies, fears and inventions of others. To them, it’s not just a silly word game, but a matter of dignity and even survival. I think that is worthy of a little respect.

      • MahaneYehude1
        October 26, 2013, 6:51 am

        @Shmuel: There is a small Gypsies community in East Jerusalem, living mainly in the Old City. The surrounding neighbors don’t tolerate them and call them “Nawar” or “Nawari” which means dirty person (“Nuri” in singular). They call themselves Domari which is the equivalent of Romani in Europe.
        link to jpost.com
        Official web site of the Domari in Jerusalem:
        link to domarisociety.wix.com

      • ziusudra
        October 26, 2013, 7:50 am

        Greeting Shmuel,
        How you be?
        ….. Gypsies, Zigeuner, Zingari……
        The first Euros to name them thought falsely that they came from Egypt!
        The first English thought that big bird in America came from Turkey,
        hence……!
        ziusudra
        PS As Adm Champlaine landed on the east coast of Canada in 1609, he asked the Hurons the name of their ‘land’, they though he meant ‘village’,
        hence, they only succinctly quipped Canada! What’s in a Name? No, i don’t want to be called a Vespuciana!

      • German Lefty
        October 26, 2013, 7:59 am

        @ Theo
        I cannot see any problems with changing the name of a football club, after all it means nothing to a great part of this world and the fans would not like it less with another name.

        I don’t see any problems with changing the name of a football club either. However, that’s not the issue here. The issue is that Native Americans act as if they owned the term “redskins” and that they want to forbid other people to apply the term to something else.

        @ Shmuel
        The names “Gypsies”, “Zigeuner”, “zingari”, etc. are an integral part of that ignorance and prejudice

        As I already stated previously, I respect their wish not to be called “Zigeuner”. However, additionally demanding a ban on the name “Zigeunerschnitzel” is totally ridiculous and goes too far. Besides, such oversensitivity doesn’t exactly make them more likeable. Also, the vast majority of Germans view “Zigeuner” as a neutral term. Therefore, the names “Zigeunerschnitzel” and “Wiener Schnitzel” fall into the same category. Furthermore, the official term for hostility, prejudice or racism directed at the Romani people is “antiziganism”. So, if the word “Zigeuner” actually were a slur, then the word “antiziganism” would include this slur, too. It would be akin to saying “anti-kikeism” or “anti-redskinism”.

      • Shmuel
        October 26, 2013, 9:16 am

        Besides, such oversensitivity doesn’t exactly make them more likeable.

        Yes, why don’t they just get over themselves and stop whining. Maybe then they would stop being segregated and lynched and dehumanised. Maybe the authorities would stop taking their children away (while repeating the historic libel that they kidnap children). Maybe if they sat quietly and didn’t make such a fuss, their life expectancy wouldn’t be at mediaeval levels.

        link to amnesty.org

      • German Lefty
        October 26, 2013, 9:37 am

        Shmuel, don’t put words in my mouth. I only talked about oversensitivity. In cases of actual discrimination, their indignation is justified.
        Besides, if parents don’t treat their children properly, then it’s the state’s responsibility to rescue these children. This has nothing to do with the parents’ ethnicity. It happens to non-Romani people, too.

        repeating the historic libel that they kidnap children
        Oh, please! Many poor people have lots of children in order to live on child benefit. Again, this has nothing to do with ethnicity but with poverty.

      • Shmuel
        October 26, 2013, 10:03 am

        GL,

        What you call “oversensitivity” is part of a struggle to break out of centuries-old and ongoing stereotyping and discrimination. The discrimination is inexorably linked to the stereotyping, which has everything to do with words that may seem perfectly innocent to you.

        Besides, if parents don’t treat their children properly … This has nothing to do with the parents’ ethnicity

        It has everything to do with ethnicity if the parents’ inability to care for their children is directly related to discrimination — in housing, education, healthcare and welfare. It also has everything to do with ethnicity if the policies of removing children from their parents are discriminatory as they have been in the past and continue to be in many European countries (including Italy).

        Many poor people have lots of children in order to live on child benefit.

        The insinuation itself is insulting, but what makes you think Roma even have access to child benefits? If you think that the libel is dead, have a look at recent news from Greece and Ireland, involving DNA testing when a Roma family is seen with a “white” child. There’s probably a case a week in Italy of Roma accused of having “tried to steal a child” (they always seem to get caught “just in the nick of time” for some reason).

      • German Lefty
        October 26, 2013, 1:16 pm

        @ Shmuel
        The insinuation itself is insulting
        Just because people feel insulted doesn’t mean that it’s not true.

        what makes you think Roma even have access to child benefits?
        Of course, Romani people receive child benefits.
        – That’s why many of them come to Germany. Germany offers the highest child benefits in Western Europe.
        – That’s why some of them kidnap or “buy” children. A few days ago, there was a report about this on TV. A Romani woman claimed to have 11 biological children. However, the dates of births of some of the children were much less than 9 months apart. And there’s no way that a woman gives birth to a child and then the next childbirth follows 4 months later or so. Therefore, it was clear that some of the children were “acquired” illegally. The TV report stated that the purpose was to obtain more child benefits.
        There’s this historic prejudice that Jews cheat people out of money. However, just because this prejudice existed in the past doesn’t mean that nowadays there can’t be ANY Jew who actually cheats people out of money. Pointing out the fact that a particular Jewish person cheats people out of money doesn’t mean that I believe that ALL Jews do this. The same logic applies to Romani people. Just because NOT ALL Romani people kidnap children doesn’t mean that NO Romani people kidnap children.
        Also, more children means more family members who can go begging. Within the last few weeks, beggars from Romania went from door to door in our village twice. This happens in many places in Germany. The internet is full of threads about this topic because Germans don’t know how to react and seek advice. Some years ago, when we were on vacation in Bulgaria, there were very many persistent beggars, too.

      • Shmuel
        October 26, 2013, 1:50 pm

        GL,

        An in-depth discussion of the Roma in Europe is certainly way off-topic and beyond the scope of this site, but we were talking about prejudice and stereotyping. There is a libellous claim against Roma in general that they “kidnap” children. This libel constantly resurfaces throughout Europe, regardless of the availability of child benefits for most Roma (e.g. in Italy or Greece), where other “explanations” are offered — the more-hands-to-beg argument you have given, for example (although more hands also means more mouths) or organ trafficking. Needless to say, in the entire history of modern Italian jurisprudence not a single case of abduction of children by Roma has been proven in a court of law.

        The issue of the birth certificates and incongruous dates is very common throughout Europe, as there is total chaos in the registration of Roma births (often not in hospital, often not reported or not registered even when reported). I don’t know about your family, but my grandmother (born at home in the US, in the early 20th century) never knew her birth date, and her birth was only registered when she started school at age six.

        Could there be cases of kidnapping or “buying” of children by individual Roma? Of course, but that would have to be proven in a court of law on an entirely individual basis. Begging, in and of itself, does not prove that such crimes have been committed by individuals, let alone give reason to associate these crimes with the group as a whole — especially when this particular accusation is a persistent racist stereotype.

        Begging is hard to deal with. I was in the centre of town today, and was approached at least half a dozen times by beggars. None of them were Roma (unless you count the busker on the accordion, but I don’t consider that begging).

      • LeaNder
        October 26, 2013, 2:10 pm

        Actually, I wanted to stay out of this.

        But would you be so kind, GL, and tell me where exactly were on TV you saw the story about the Romani woman with 11 kids occasionally only 4 month apart?

        Be so kind.

      • LeaNder
        October 26, 2013, 2:16 pm

        Within the last few weeks, beggars from Romania went from door to door in our village twice.

        Where exactly is your village. Inside the Eastern nationally freed zones actually?

        So beggars from Romania equals Roma people? Look this sounds as if you made things up as you went along.

      • German Lefty
        October 26, 2013, 2:24 pm

        @ Shmuel

        The discrimination is inexorably linked to the stereotyping, which has everything to do with words that may seem perfectly innocent to you.
        As I already told you, the ridiculous attempt to ban the name “Zigeunerschnitzel” will only lead to MORE animosity towards Romani people, not to LESS. It’s totally counterproductive. It’s just like when Zionist Jews constantly mistake anti-Zionism for anti-Semitism, then people get annoyed about it and react negatively. Don’t confuse cause and effect.

        There is a libellous claim against Roma in general that they “kidnap” children. This libel constantly resurfaces throughout Europe
        I have never heard of this general claim before. I only learnt about this particular case that was mentioned on TV.

        The issue of the birth certificates and incongruous dates is very common throughout Europe, as there is total chaos in the registration of Roma births (often not in hospital, often not reported or not registered even when reported)
        Oh, and who do you think is to blame for this? All the different European countries or the Romani people?

        I don’t know about your family, but my grandmother (born at home in the US, in the early 20th century) never knew her birth date, and her birth was only registered when she started school at age six.
        Seriously? Well, the USA sucks at organising. Just look at their chaotic elections.
        The birth dates of all my grandparents and great-grandparents are known. My oldest grandparent was born in 1923 and my youngest in 1934. I also have copies of their birth certificates for my family tree. The last person born at home was my aunt. This was in 1947.

      • German Lefty
        October 26, 2013, 2:41 pm

        where exactly were on TV you saw the story
        If I could remember, then I would already have linked to it in my previous post. Also, I would have watched the segment again before writing about it.

        Where exactly is your village. Inside the Eastern nationally freed zones actually?
        Ha, ha. Very funny. No, of course not. In Thuringia.

        So beggars from Romania equals Roma people?
        Don’t put words in my mouth. I did not say this. However, they could be Romani people.

        Look this sounds as if you made things up as you went along.
        Believe whatever you want, but I didn’t make anything up.

      • LeaNder
        October 26, 2013, 3:49 pm

        There is a libellous claim against Roma in general that they “kidnap” children.

        The Gypsies are coming, the old people say. To buy little children and take them away…

      • LeaNder
        October 26, 2013, 5:11 pm

        GF, I doubt this TV story exists, and I am pretty sure you know it doesn’t. Did you switch channels again too fast to remember well? Not that your story’s general pattern is not very familiar, but it is the familiarity made up stories like these always have.

        Am I to believe there was such a story or news over here and it left no trace on the web? Not even the trace of a slightly different story of a Roma woman with many kids?

        This is a déjà vu, I remember sometimes you simply create the type of German TV news you need for your respective argument. Slightly different context, but basically the same story. Seemingly at that point you wanted to impress with some type of “superior” German TV coverage on the Palestinian issue in that case “Five broken Cameras”. Nevertheless it was just as made up, as your story about the Roma woman with 11 (partly stolen, or illegally adopted?) kids is.

        - That’s why many of them come to Germany. Germany offers the highest child benefits in Western Europe.

        Wrong Luxembourg’s is much higher. Besides you are talking nonsense, I even grant more or less without awareness. If a German Roma family has many kids, they get the same child benefit as anybody else. See: GG Art 3.. Anything wrong with that? Besides, as you may or may not know, child benefits are basically a tax deduction, and it depends on the income.

        And this supposedly “huge amount of money” as you suggest would dramatically disappear for non-German Roma refugees or immigrants from other countries, which you may well have in mind. It also would look pretty different for your invented mother with 11 kids which hardly can work at the same time. Such a fictive woman wouldn’t receive the child benefits you talk about. I know of Roma kids from mothers from other countries that are not even allowed to go to school over here.

        In any case it is pretty obvious you have not the slightest clue what you are talking about.

        Well, if you are from Thuringia, I could contact the Flüchlingsrat (refugee council) there. I am pretty sure they can tell me more about the rumors about Roma or romanian beggars in the region. Is your village lose to Erfurt anyway? Not that it matters, these people are usually well informed.

        On a more general note in our larger context: What about slur terms for LGBT folks? Who do you feel should decide, if they can or cannot be used? “LGBT rights supporters” like you, even if they seem to be slightly ethically handicapped like you if it concerns any other group?

      • German Lefty
        October 27, 2013, 6:29 am

        I doubt this TV story exists, and I am pretty sure you know it doesn’t.
        Sigh. I know that I watched it. Just because I don’t remember the exact date, time, channel and title of the TV show doesn’t mean that the story doesn’t exist. You know how many news shows there are on German TV. Do you make notes of when you watch what on TV? I can’t see into the future. If I had known back then that I will need this information a few days later, I would have taken notes and could easily find the clip online.

        Seemingly at that point you wanted to impress with some type of “superior” German TV coverage on the Palestinian issue in that case “Five broken Cameras”.
        That’s not true at all. The title of the article was ’5 Broken Cameras’ and ‘The Gatekeepers’ nominated for Best Documentary Oscar and I simply wrote Great news. I just heard it on German TV. I mentioned it because I was surprised to have heard anything about it on German TV. I didn’t write it to impress anyone. It certainly wasn’t my intention to depict German TV coverage as “superior”. If German TV coverage were so great, then I wouldn’t have to come here. Your interpretation of my posts is a product of your imagination and tainted by your dislike for me.

        Wrong Luxembourg’s is much higher.
        Well, Luxembourg isn’t big enough to house the many refugees.

        If a German Roma family has many kids, they get the same child benefit as anybody else. See: GG Art 3.. Anything wrong with that?
        No, of course not. Are you not able or not willing to understand what I am saying? Shmuel claimed that there is discrimination against Romani people and that they don’t have access to child benefits. I simply wrote that this is not true and that they are treated like everyone else. “Many poor people have lots of children in order to live on child benefit. Again, this has nothing to do with ethnicity but with poverty.”

        child benefits are basically a tax deduction, and it depends on the income.
        That’s not true. “Die vom Einkommen der Eltern unabhängige Familienbeihilfe, die in ihrer Höhe jedoch vom Alter des Kindes abhängt, wird an die Eltern ausbezahlt und steigt mit der Anzahl der Kinder um die sogenannte Geschwisterstaffel .”
        link to de.wikipedia.org

        I know of Roma kids from mothers from other countries that are not even allowed to go to school over here.
        Not allowed? This can’t be true. School attendance is compulsory in Germany. They are probably refugees. I assume that the state simply can’t deal with that many refugees at once and that the schools are already overcrowded. Therefore, that’s not discrimination based on ethnicity. It’s because of the unfortunate circumstances.

        I am pretty sure they can tell me more about the rumors about Roma or romanian beggars in the region.
        These aren’t rumors. And they don’t just go begging in Thuringia. Those in our village had laminated notes, which say that they are from Romania. Besides, how about using Google? Just type in “Bettler Tür Rumänen” or something like that.
        link to gutefrage.net
        link to shz.de
        link to forum.glamour.de
        link to merkur-online.de

        What about slur terms for LGBT folks? Who do you feel should decide, if they can or cannot be used?
        As I have already stated many times, I am against calling people names. However, if there were a “faggot schnitzel”, I would tolerate it.

      • LeaNder
        October 27, 2013, 12:01 pm

        You know how many news shows there are on German TV. Do you make notes of when you watch what on TV?

        “New shows” is an interesting way to put it. No, I do not need to take notes. But I also rarely practice channel hopping. If I watch TV at all I basically watch the same channels.

        AND Yes, I indeed think, I would also easily remember in what context I saw it. And I find it hard to believe that in the times of Google I would have much troubles to tracing whatever it was.

        The only thing that comes to mind concerning “news shows” is something I have never watched. The “Heute Show”, which if I understand correctly is some type of comedy or satire. Is that your source? Now if I google Heute Show I indeed find some youtube vidoes. But none of the story you talk about.

        Maybe you occasionally look into our laws concerning discrimination and/or media laws. It may be more enlightening than channel hopping. It may well make a story as the one you tell pretty unlikely without any type of consequences. All that would leave web traces, my dear.

        Maybe you can start by telling me what obscure channels you are watching? Maybe there are some that operate outside German and/or European media laws, who knows? I could also simply use the usual research tools to look for any evidence about your story in German media. Should I really waste my time on you? Honey pie?

        I mentioned it because I was surprised to have heard anything about it on German TV.

        The problem is it never was, as you admitted at the time, deciding that indeed you could have mistaken what was said about “The Gatekeepers” at the time.

        That’s not true. “Die vom Einkommen der Eltern unabhängige

        I am afraid you googled or checked wikipedia a bit too fast. What you allude to is under the header: Austria, so I have no idea what you are trying to tell me. As you may know, or maybe not know, in Germany people that don’t earn enough to deduce it via the tax would have only one way to augment their income via the specific social laws, and in that specific case: Hartz IV or the SGB series it is based on.

        Rumanian beggars:

        Concerning your expertise or claimed experience with the topic, what is your problem? Begging does not mean you have to give. Does it? Yes there are many people in need out there, and some may even misuse your trust or be misused by anyone else. Fact is there was a flood in Rumania, and some people may have gotten the message that Germans donated for the flood victims in the East too. People in Thuringia may have been slightly more lucky than Romanians in that context. No?

        Romanians by the way are also hired by people over here that need cheep help for their aging parents. I doubt they get much of what is paid by the people and usually are exchanged after three month for someone else. On the other hand no German would work for the money.

        The problem with your expertise is that you only look for certain aspects that fit your position.

        We have a lot of German beggars in Cologne, by the way. Should I make a difference? Or would you consider our own “begging asocials” a problem too?

        What would “faggot schnitzel” tell whoever about what type of Schnitzel it is? Or what can an invented example tell us about the problems concerning a real one?

        What exactly does “Zigeunerschnitzel” communicate to you that it makes it absolutely necessary the word is used? Would a potential costumer not realize it without the term, that this type of Schnitzel is topped with paprika or peppers? So why do you think the word is absolutely necessary? Besides helping you to make a little fun of people, or use the story as evidence that after all they are only disliked due to the way they act.

        Enough said.

      • Theo
        October 27, 2013, 1:32 pm

        LeaNder

        I would like to break in at this point, as you are getting a bit too agressive on GL!
        First of all, I would like to ask you, if you saw on TV a report years ago, do you still remember where and when did you see it, or it just made so good impression on you that you still remember the subject, but not the date?
        During my 70+ years I have read and seen many thing that I did not forget, however the source may have slipped my mind!

        I don´t know where do you live and what kind of first hand experience do you have with the roma?
        Yesterday I quoted several documented cases here, a recent TV and statistical reports on the roma, however it was deleted.
        In my life I have seen and talked to many gypsies, or you may call them roma, and they certainly look different than other romanien citizens. I have several close friends of those.
        Can you see the difference between a pakistani- and a german-american?
        I think that answers your question.
        I would not dare to make comments on the different ethnicities in China, as I never been there. I feel here we have a lot of ideological comments from people who never saw a live gypsy and don´t know anything about their lifestyle. GL is right in many of her comments, if not all.

      • German Lefty
        October 27, 2013, 1:43 pm

        I find it hard to believe that in the times of Google I would have much troubles to tracing whatever it was.
        If you seriously think that it’s that easy, then google it yourself. I gave you all the information that I remember. And it was an actual news show, not some comedy show. I watch the normal private and public channels, nothing unusual.

        I could also simply use the usual research tools to look for any evidence about your story in German media. Should I really waste my time on you?
        Oh, but I am supposed to waste my time on pleasing the self-declared nitwit!? No, thanks.

        The problem is it never was, as you admitted at the time, deciding that indeed you could have mistaken what was said about “The Gatekeepers” at the time.
        You conveniently ignore the fact that the article was about “The Gatekeepers”, too. And I saw a clip about “The Gatekeepers” on the TV news. I have never explicitly stated that I saw a clip about “5 Broken Cameras”. Therefore, I did not lie.

        I am afraid you googled or checked wikipedia a bit too fast. What you allude to is under the header: Austria
        Oh, right. I clicked on “Germany” and then overlooked the “Austria” heading. Anyway, this doesn’t change the fact that the child benefit in Germany is a fixed amount and paid to parents regardless of income.

        We have a lot of German beggars in Cologne, by the way. Should I make a difference?
        The difference is not the nationality but the behaviour. Begging from door to door is very aggressive and annoying. Disturbing people at home is unacceptable. I don’t mind beggars who peacefully sit or walk around in pedestrian areas.

        What would “faggot schnitzel” tell whoever about what type of Schnitzel it is? Or what can an invented example tell us about the problems concerning a real one?
        You asked me a question and I kindly answered it. And now you complain that I answered your question.

        What exactly does “Zigeunerschnitzel” communicate to you that it makes it absolutely necessary the word is used?
        Again, you put words in my mouth. I have never claimed that using the name is “absolutely necessary”. However, changing the name is not absolutely necessary either. Hey, why don’t you change your user name? I find it offensive.

      • German Lefty
        October 27, 2013, 2:03 pm

        you are getting a bit too agressive on GL!
        Theo, thanks for your support. LeaNder has always been aggressive to me. Perhaps it’s age-based discrimination. Some older people have no respect for younger people. They simply dismiss us as clueless.

        Yesterday I quoted several documented cases here, a recent TV and statistical reports on the roma, however it was deleted.
        Oh, I wonder why. Perhaps you can try to post it again if you have a copy of that comment.

      • LeaNder
        October 27, 2013, 3:13 pm

        And it was an actual news show, not some comedy show. I watch the normal private and public channels, nothing unusual.

        I am not aware that any news program format is called “news show” over here. Maybe you can enlighten me. Nitwits always like to learn.

        Oh, right. I clicked on “Germany” and then overlooked the “Austria” heading. Anyway, this doesn’t change the fact that the child benefit in Germany is a fixed amount and paid to parents regardless of income.

        Go back and read what I already wrote. If you cannot deduce the child benefit from the income tax, since for instance you don’t pay enough to start with, the only way open to you to get extra money for your kids would be via social laws, of course with dramatically reduced rates. The fixed amount (the highest child benefits in Europe, or whatever you called them) you allude to is purely a tax deductible amount. No matter how often you repeat it, it doesn’t get less false.

        Fact is also that the story you tell is absolutely impossible for many reasons. A woman that takes care of 11 kids hardly worked before. If she is a German Roma, all she can get are social benefits for herself and her kids, with reduced money for the kids. If she is not German she cannot get any money for them if she did not live here during the last three years. She only receives child benefits after having stayed in Germany with her kids for at least three years. Not before. That is why your story cannot be true, which in turn suggests you pulled it out of your sleeve.

        The difference is not the nationality but the behaviour. Begging from door to door is very aggressive and annoying. Disturbing people at home is unacceptable. I don’t mind beggars who peacefully sit or walk around in pedestrian areas.

        I guess you should tell that to the people collecting for the “Rote Kreuz/red cross” or all other “aggressive and annoying” institutions that used this practice, or maybe you should start to rant about all the Germans that fake to collect for any charitable organizations like Deutsche Flugrettung. I don’t know about the beggars you write about, but strictly I would be really hesitant to take anything you write at face value. Nitwits, like me (not this one), are not necessarily also dullards …

      • German Lefty
        October 27, 2013, 3:45 pm

        I am not aware that any news program format is called “news show” over here.
        OMG! “News show” is simply an English translation of “Nachrichtensendung”. link to dict.cc

        Fact is also that the story you tell is absolutely impossible for many reasons.
        Um, I have never claimed that the story I heard was about a Roma woman in Germany. I only said that the story was presented on a German news show. Besides, look at this article: link to focus.de

        I guess you should tell that to the people collecting for the “Rote Kreuz/red cross” or all other “aggressive and annoying” institutions that used this practice
        These people came to my mind, too. As I said, it’s about the behaviour, not the nationality.

        I would be really hesitant to take anything you write at face value.
        Well, nobody forces you to read my comments. Feel free to ignore them.

      • LeaNder
        October 27, 2013, 7:01 pm

        OMG! “News show” is simply an English translation of “Nachrichtensendung”. link to dict.cc

        Yes, OMG, cc has its limits sometimes. May help to take a look at Linguee occasionally. “News show” may work for a show like Jon Steward’s Daily Show. It also may well be used for programs mixing news program with entertaining elements in the US. I am not aware this program format exists over here, in spite of the occasional different choice in items in the private channels and it’s American influence. If you are referring to any type of programs or formats over here resembling e.g. the NBC’s Today Show I am at loss what you you could could possibly be referring to over here. Thus, since you were not referring to American TV this explanation does not work for me:

        I only said that the story was presented on a German news show. Besides, look at this article: link to focus.de

        Now you shift the subject, you claimed it was about “stealing” or “adopting” kids to receive child benefit here in Germany or our “Kindergeld”. If you don’t mind I prefer this report, I hate Focus. But this is what you wrote:

        - That’s why some of them kidnap or “buy” children. A few days ago, there was a report about this on TV. A Romani woman claimed to have 11 biological children. … The TV report stated that the purpose was to obtain more child benefits.

        What you link to are reports about Romanians or Bulgarians which either get child benefit or tax deductions in Germany, which suggests they either are self-employed, since they can only work here for others from the next year on, or who get social security or Hartz IV. How does that fit into a story where a woman supposedly “stole” “kidnapped” kids to get child benefit?

        Yes there are some news concerning a higher rate of Bulgarians and Romanians that are supported under German social security laws. Precisely 0,5 percent of all people that get social security come from either Bulgaria or Romania. Many also seem to be self-employed apparently, otherwise they couldn’t get the altogether 0,3 percent of all the child benefits in Germany.

        Look this is Europe and we have something like freedom of movement, people from Romania and Bulgaria have this freedom too. From 2014 they can even work here for others. Thus as long as they do not anything worse to you than annoy you by begging I am afraid you have to tolerate that.

        But nice try. Simply does not support your above alleged “German news show” story “a couple of days ago” about a Romanian woman, a tall tale which somehow resembled old gypsy lore, with 11 partly “kidnapped” or “stolen” kids for which she tried to get child benefits over here. But yes, some of these people seem to be Roma.

        Could this be “the German news show” item you slightly modified?

      • Shmuel
        October 28, 2013, 4:15 am

        LeaNder,

        The bottom line seems to be that the same stories, generalisations, rumours and rationalisations are used time and again, whether welfare benefits are actually available or not – whether in Germany, Italy, Greece, France or Slovakia – and they serve merely to reinforce prejudice and stereotypes (whether one is consciously aware of them or not).

        The divide (beloved of and actively encouraged by populistic politicians on the right and, sadly, even on the left) between Decent Folk and the Scary Other is still Europe’s shame.

        link to huffingtonpost.co.uk

      • German Lefty
        October 28, 2013, 6:56 am

        “News show” may work for a show like Jon Steward’s “Daily Show”.
        The serious Nachrichtensendungen are news shows, too. They are shown on TV and this makes them shows.

        Now you shift the subject, you claimed it was about “stealing” or “adopting” kids to receive child benefit here in Germany or our “Kindergeld”.
        No, I didn’t claim that. Read properly. The TV report was about a Romani woman in another country. And it was explicitly said that she “stole” or “illegally adopted” some of these 11 children in order to get child benefits. Anyway, my initial point was to show that Romani people receive all the benefits that non-Romani people receive, too. Therefore, there’s no discrimination. And just because not all Romani people steal children doesn’t mean that no Romani people steal children. They can be as criminal as everyone else. Pointing this fact out has nothing to do with prejudice. Also, some members of minority groups misuse their minority status and make false accusations of prejudice and discrimination in order to get away with crimes. For example, we can see this with Zionist Jews and Israel’s crimes. Being overprotective of minority groups is as harmful as being underprotective of them. Minority groups must not have any special status. They must be equal.

        Look this is Europe and we have something like freedom of movement, people from Romania and Bulgaria have this freedom too. From 2014 they can even work here for others. Thus as long as they do not anything worse to you than annoy you by begging I am afraid you have to tolerate that.
        You totally twist the purpose of my posts. Clearly, you lack reading comprehension.

        Could this be “the German news show” item you slightly modified?
        No. I told you that it was not a news item about people in Germany. And I didn’t modify anything.

      • German Lefty
        October 28, 2013, 7:08 am

        From the Focus article that I linked:
        “Eigentlich steht Zuwanderern kein Hartz IV zu. Lediglich, wenn ihr Einkommen aus selbständiger Arbeit nicht zum Leben ausreicht, oder sie ihren Job verloren haben, können sie ausnahmsweise Hartz IV beziehen.
        Viele nutzen diese Ausnahme aus. Laut dem Deutschen Städtetag werden Gewerbe zunehmend nur zum Zweck angemeldet, als Selbständiger zu gelten und ein knappes Einkommen mit Hartz IV aufzustocken, schreibt die SZ.”
        From the Weltspiegel article that you linked:
        “Viele der Neuankömmlinge beantragen Leistungen nach dem Hartz IV Gesetz. [...] Das Amt bestätigt, dass der rumänische Staatsbürger ab sofort auf rumänische Sozialleistungen verzichtet. Nur damit ist er dann berechtigt, in Deutschland finanzielle Unterstützung zu beantragen. Marian Vasile will das demnächst tun. Gerade hat er sein drittes Kind angemeldet. Umgerechnet nur 10 Euro Kindergeld zahlt der rumänische Staat. Andere regelmäßige Einnahmen hat die Familie nicht. Er weiß, dass man in Deutschland Kindergeld bekommt, wenn man sich dort als selbstständiger Unternehmer anmeldet. Und zwar pro Kind mehr Geld als ein Lehrer in Fantanele verdient. Deshalb will er da hin. [...] Denn durch die Anmeldung eines Gewerbes haben sie Anspruch auf Kindergeld und andere Leistungen nach dem Bundessozialhilfegesetz.”
        The two articles substantiate what I wrote. Most of them come because of the child benefits.

      • LeaNder
        October 28, 2013, 8:17 am

        Thanks, Shmuel, interesting article. So there were other cases with a blue eyed kids suspected to be stolen in Ireland. Somewhat reminiscent of antisemitic stereotypes for me.

        When I lived in Ireland for a couple of months, a friend brought me to the Irish travelers community, or tinkers as he called them. Never heard about them before. He told curious stories about them painting their faces with colors to give people the impression they were sick supposedly used for begging. But he was never able to show me such an example. In the camp I met a little girl who was amazingly bright and very curious. For whatever reason she sticks out in my memory. …

        Yes blood libel belongs into that context too, highly interesting story on it’s own. Sometimes these kids supposedly killed by Jews were turned into saints, which together with the relics of cause brought pilgrims and riches to the community. Relics always bring one tale from Boccaccio’s Decameron to mind, coals mysteriously turned into feathers. Strictly somewhat related to our tale here. Narrational flexibility.

        I heard about the Redskin-name-mascot-issue, strictly our topic here, from Canadian First Nation people over a decade ago by now. Interesting crowd. I learned a lot from them. Maybe that was the reason, I at all responded to this, I guess you were very young when you left Canada. But somehow your interference drew my closer attention.

        sadly, even on the left
        I made a distinction ages ago, when being left was some type of prerequisite to fit in. Real or fake. Bandwagon effect. Also, seen quite a few of them “earlier lefties” shift from left to right in the last decades; many of them exploiting their respective little leftie tribes to get a special advantage in the larger university setting. But yes, I was wondering about the tag “German Lefty” in this context too. Strictly it is ultimately about ethics and not about politics.

        Hoping you are fine.

      • LeaNder
        October 28, 2013, 9:47 am

        Therefore, there’s no discrimination. And just because not all Romani people steal children doesn’t mean that no Romani people steal children.

        This is nothing but a common place. The point where it changes dramatically is when stories are invented for use as a “anti-anti-racist” weapon. And that is what your narrative is all about.

        No, I didn’t claim that. Read properly. The TV report was about a Romani woman in another country. And it was explicitly said that she “stole” or “illegally adopted” some of these 11 children in order to get child benefits. Anyway, my initial point was to show that Romani people receive all the benefits that non-Romani people receive, too.

        So far it is still only a story you tell us, that seemingly left not even a tiny trace on the web. How comes? It would be a rather hot news item as the story from Greece shows us. Very, very unlikely that no German journalist would have connected the two stories if anything surfaced in his news agency databases. No?

        How do you explain that not even the NPD (National Party Germany) has picked up information on the item? It would fit perfectly well into their larger outlook. Here is a search NPD party Saxony/Sachsen No return for Rumänin, female version of Romanian. The same happens with the branch in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. How do you explain no one alerted them to this “hot news show item” so helpful for their larger argument? They argue though, there is nothing wrong with the word “Zigeuner” somewhere else, since they are all criminals anyway, and strictly there are quite a few items on Roma, but not one even slightly similar to yourk story. How comes?

        The only thing that surfaces in the NPD headquarters Germany is the part followed by the celebration of many successful lawsuits against the “Sinti and Roma lobby”:

        The lobby groups of Sinti and Roma filed complaints against self-evident claims such as “More money for grandma instead of for Sinti and Roma”, submissive authorities had workers of the municipal construction yard took down the illegal posters/billboards. (my italics)

        How do you explain this odd silence on an issue apparently so dear to their hearts?

      • LeaNder
        October 28, 2013, 10:47 am

        Laut dem Deutschen Städtetag werden Gewerbe zunehmend nur zum Zweck angemeldet, als Selbständiger zu gelten und ein knappes Einkommen mit Hartz IV aufzustocken, schreibt die SZ.”

        I’ll check the allegation supposedly based on the association of German cities that some Bulgarians or Romanians are faking self-employment to get social security payments over here. Again: this is a shift from your initial statement that they try to get child benefits, remember?

        Here is a fast search on Romanians and Bulgarians in their online database.The third link leads to this paper: Positionspapier_Zuwanderung_2013 (position paper immigration), it includes information about discrimination against Roma in the two countries, human rights issues in the two countries. Their library is here in Cologne, by the way, I know it well and a good friend works there, I am sure if necessary he can point out the original statement to me Focusused for it usual argument and that you seem so find inspiring. it may well be taken out of context.

        Of course this fits into a much larger debate, which circles this question: Can people from other European countries, who are looking for work in Germany, get Hartz IV too, which is a basic minimum rate for anybody looking for work. I wonder if a restriction to Germans only will survive a case before the European Court of Human Rights. Thus strictly the ultimate question is, would they at all need to fake non-existent self-employment, resulting in even reduced subsistence minimum claims, but actually have a right to it, just like you and me would have.

        But no German Lefty, no matter how much you would like it, the Weltspiegel report and/or article I linked to does not support your claim. Besides you are again mixing up citations concerning child benefit, a tax reduction and social security or Hartz IV again. Notice: we started with a Romanian woman with 11 kids living on child benefit. Didn’t we?

        Seems you still either don’t get it, or are deliberately prevaricating. Again: There is no child benefit in Germany without paying income tax first, which your hot-news-show-item supposedly claimed. Thus it would also not work with any type of faked income as the Focus suggests.

        Is it so impossible to get this into your head: No child benefit without paying first income tax to start with.

        We [German TV crew] are here [in the city hall of a village in Romania] because in this office a specific form is frequently demanded. It’s for a submission to the German authorities. A waiver. The official confirmed that the Romanian Romanian citizen therein waives social benefits immediately. So he is then entitled to apply for financial support in Germany .

        Marian Vasile wants to do that soon . He has just registered his third child . Only 10 euros child support are paid by the Romanian state. The family has no other income. He knows that you get child benefit in Germany, if you register there as an independent contractor. And each child earns more money than a teacher in Fantanele. That’s why he wants to go. …

        [The crew is invited to a wedding party, where they meet people on visit from Berlin too]

        No, they do not really speak German, although have been living in Berlin for years now. But their children, they tells us, speak German fluently. Seven of them she has, all going to school in Berlin-Neukölln. She is pregnant, she carries the eighth. The men work as demolition contractors on construction sites . “All perfectly legal , registered , with papers .“

        If you are self-employed, by the way, and do not make money for a longer time, you get into troubles with tax authorities by the way.

      • LeaNder
        October 28, 2013, 11:04 am

        gone again:

        had workers of the municipal construction yard took take down the illegal posters/billboards. (my italics)

        many other little items, but now I have to urgently leave anyway.

      • German Lefty
        October 28, 2013, 1:09 pm

        This is nothing but a common place. The point where it changes dramatically is when stories are invented for use as a “anti-anti-racist” weapon. And that is what your narrative is all about.
        Again, the story is NOT invented. If you agree with me that Roma are as good or bad as any other people, then why do you automatically accuse me of lying when I mention one news item about one criminal Roma woman? I tell you why: It’s because YOU are prejudiced against ME.

        So far it is still only a story you tell us, that seemingly left not even a tiny trace on the web. How comes? It would be a rather hot news item as the story from Greece shows us.
        Perhaps it even was the story from Greece. I don’t remember. And I am not going to waste an entire day or more on looking for the TV report I watched.

        How do you explain that not even the NPD has picked up information on the item?
        Seriously? You expect me to be the spokesperson of the right-wing extremists and to come up with explanations of why they do what? I have nothing to do with these people. And unlike you, I don’t monitor their websites. So, how would I know? Besides, the story that I heard did not happen in Germany. How often do I still need to tell you that?

        I’ll check the allegation supposedly based on the association of German cities that some Bulgarians or Romanians are faking self-employment to get social security payments over here.
        I read about this in a Spiegel article, too. And don’t expect me to post the link. You can look for it yourself if you want to read the article.

        Again: this is a shift from your initial statement that they try to get child benefits, remember?
        Well, the news item only mentioned child benefits, but this happened in another country.
        Many poverty refugees come to Germany for the benefits. What kind of benefits doesn’t really matter. If they actually came for jobs, they would certainly put a lot more effort into learning German.

        no matter how much you would like it, the Weltspiegelreport does not support your claim.
        It does support my claim. Can’t you read? Anyway, Roma immigrants have to meet the same conditions as non-Roma immigrants in order to get benefits, whether it’s child benefit or other benefits. There is no discrimination based on ethnicity. Actually, this was the only point that I wanted to make. And then you came and accused me of lying.

        If you are self-employed, by the way, and do not make money for a longer time, you get into troubles with tax authorities by the way.
        Probably, but only after several years. In the meantime, you can benefit from benefits.

        This was my last post to you. I am tired of this discussion with you and your constant false accusations against me. Why should I waste my time on a person who believes that I have ulterior motives?

      • LeaNder
        October 28, 2013, 5:18 pm

        German Lefty: Again, the story is NOT invented. If you agree with me that Roma are as good or bad as any other people, then why do you automatically accuse me of lying when I mention one news item about one criminal Roma woman? I tell you why: It’s because YOU are prejudiced against ME.

        German Lefty: Perhaps it even was the story from Greece. I don’t remember. And I am not going to waste an entire day or more on looking for the TV report I watched.

        Am I prejudiced against you? Yes, if a strong suspicion, you invented the story freely to fit into your larger argument, is prejudice for you: Absolutely.

        Ok, the descriptor “criminal” helps. I have another good friend who can access police criminal databases both for Germany and the EU, now that you don’t insist anymore it was a story about a Romanian/Roma woman in Germany greedy for our high child benefit. You agree, I hope, “news show” journalists wouldn’t invent the story, or only rarely in any case, and thus there must have been a criminal case the report you allegedly saw was based on? You also only saw it a few day ago, didn’t you? Would a check of the last three month suffice?

        I’ll ask him to check his databases with the following search terms:

        Romanian woman and/or Roma woman
        child benefit
        11 children
        suspicion/proof some are illegally adopted and/or kidnapped

        I already checked Genios for German media items containing these terms: Rumänin + 11 Kinder + Kindergeld (Romanian/Roma woman + 11 children + child benefit) The result is: Z E R O. No such story available. The same zero result if I use “Roma woman” instead of Romanian:

        German Lefty: That’s why some of them kidnap or “buy” children. A few days ago, there was a report about this on TV. A Romani woman claimed to have 11 biological children. … The TV report stated that the purpose was to obtain more child benefits.

        How comes? No one but you seems to have noticed this story? Oh, yes maybe it was not Germany at all, only German child benefits. ;)

        If I check the NPD database that means they are my type of people? Slightly simplistic? Isn’t it? I think it is a logical conclusion that such a story would hardly escape them. Don’t you think? Much too useful from their perspective. But of course, only if it happened in Germany. Which now you aren’t sure about anymore. Now we confront a new turn; (GF:) Perhaps it even was the story from Greece. It may even have been the story about Greece. Problem no “11 kids” some too close to others in age to be possible biological children, and no German “child benefits” of course the highest in Europe, which you claimed was her motive. Now what was it?

        Besides, I understand now how our leading neoliberal/conservative weekly Focus, “for readers short of time”, distorted the press releases of the German Association of Cities. Are you are interested? … hint: look up “Scheinselbständigkeit” on Wikipedia, that means employers that cannot officially hire them before 2014 may hire them as self-employed contractors, saves them half of the health insurance and pension contributions and makes it unnecessary for them to employ them continuously. But, who do you think of these two sides employer or subcontractor has the better understanding of German labor law? The one hiring them as subcontractors or luring them into a some type of fake self-employment or the Romanian men?

      • LeaNder
        October 28, 2013, 6:11 pm

        LeaNder: If you are self-employed, by the way, and do not make money for a longer time, you get into troubles with tax authorities by the way.

        German Lefty: Probably, but only after several years. In the meantime, you can benefit from benefits.

        Beati pauperes spiritu: Seems you still don’t get it.

        Child benefits are nothing but a tax deduction. They are not a “benefit you can benefit of”. It’s not as you seem to still assume money you get simply for having many kids. That is a fairy tale.

        Again: It is simply about paying less taxes, it diminishes your gain, or the income that is taxed. After all you have to feed your kids and send them to school. No? You make it look as if all you need is have many kids and this makes you rich. Kids are pretty expensive, a lot more than the child benefit you can deduct from your taxes. Honey pie, ask your parents.

        Is that so hard to get into your head?

  2. Woody Tanaka
    October 24, 2013, 1:22 pm

    “Another angle of interest on this story is that the ADL, which has suggested that the team’s name be changed, has shown great deference to Snyder in this statement saying it’s up to the ownership and the ‘fan base:'”

    Interesting. Remeber that this is the alleged civil rights group that joined hands and fought shoulder to shoulder with Pam Gellar’s rabble in the attempt to prevent Muslims from exercise thier First Amendment religious freedoms by building the mosque in New York. Foxman had no problem stating what someone should or should not do in that situation, but is deferential here. Something tells me that if the owner of the team was a Muslim, that the ADL wouldn’t show such deference.

    “But when Qatari officials chose to remove an Israeli flag from outside an aquatic center during a swimming tournament earlier this week, the ADL showed no such deference, condemning them out of hand for the decision.”

    Well, of course. It’s be hard to scam up outrage (and donation $$$) from the ADL’s contributors by taking a principled stand regarding Native Americans. But some silly slight in the ME that hurts no one, well, that fills the coffers…

  3. LanceThruster
    October 24, 2013, 2:03 pm

    I guess it all depends on context. Howard Stern regularly did bits about Norman Jewison (I think) who he said might as well be named “Kikey Kikestein” but Howard is also supportive of Zionism on the whole (he spoke of nuking some random Arab country on 9/11) so he gets quite a bit of leeway.

    In a related note, the other night Stephen Colbert did a bit about who would win between a lion and a tiger. He observed that they can call each other “Tigger,” but *you* can’t.

    xD

    • valency
      October 25, 2013, 12:54 am

      Howard Stern regularly did bits about Norman Jewison (I think) who he said might as well be named “Kikey Kikestein” but Howard is also supportive of Zionism on the whole (he spoke of nuking some random Arab country on 9/11) so he gets quite a bit of leeway.

      If he did, he got it wrong. Norman Jewison, despite the surname and the fact that he did “Fiddler on the Roof”, is not Jewish.

      • LanceThruster
        October 25, 2013, 12:07 pm

        That’s funny!

        That I did not know.

        Thank you.

  4. xanadou
    October 24, 2013, 2:30 pm

    Wow.
    Shocking. Odious. Infantile. Unprofessional. Disgusting.
    But if it works, it will set a much-needed, if long overdue and, however revolting, a precedent.

  5. Scott
    October 24, 2013, 3:21 pm

    Just wondering here: is Redskins more offensive than “Braves” or “Indians”? Do they all need to go? Seminoles apparently okay, the tribe says.

    • Woody Tanaka
      October 24, 2013, 4:02 pm

      I’d say that the name is more offensive. But the Indians’s logo is the most offensive of the logos and the “Tomahawk Chop” is the most offensive organized, fascist-like action by any sports fans anywhere, ever. (Braves fans suck.)

      I think that the notion of naming sports teams and the equally offensive or more offensive practice of the US military abusing Native American names for the use of their weapons and stuff are inherently racist. (The slander of Geronimo during the bin Laden raid was especially disgusting.) They claim that it’s “honoring them” because their strong fighters, etc., but what they’re really doing is reducing complex cultures and peoples to one element where they interacted with the white people and pretending that that’s the primary element of that culture.

    • Memphis
      October 24, 2013, 4:08 pm

      Yes, it is, cause although ‘Braves’ and ‘indians’ are insensitive in some regard, those words are not actual racist slurs.

      Atlanta Braves this year were forced to change a hat and logo because many felt it was insensitive to First Nations (Indians)

      Redskins suck anyways. Change the name, make a boatload of new merchandise sales and move on

    • tokyobk
      October 24, 2013, 9:36 pm

      Scott, of course it is. Reference to any groups particular (supposed) trait is going to be offensive especially skin color (which of course red is an imagined taxonomy like white, yellow of which there is no actual human equivalent).
      Though Chief Wahoo is pretty f-d up logo.
      Seminoles is the actual name of the people. If they don’t care it seems ok to me.

  6. MRW
    October 24, 2013, 3:52 pm

    Hopi legend talks about the origin of the world whereupon the people were split up into red people, yellow people, black people, and white people to learn what they had to, and then come back as one. It would be the white people who would have to bring them all back together.

    The red people were in charge of the earth, the yellow people were in charge of the air, the black people were in charge of water, and the white people were in charge of fire.

    The Hopi viewed themselves as being red people, as having red skin.

  7. Krauss
    October 24, 2013, 4:07 pm

    To those who say “it isn’t offensive”, should we go around calling African-Americans “blackies” too?
    Redskins is not the worst slur out there, but it’s a racial slur. You can be called worse things than kike as a Jew, but it’s still a slur.

    I think Onion’s piece is interesting, more so because of what the reactions tell us about Jewish comfortability inside the American establishment. Had Jews truly been outsiders, there would be howling outrage at the Onion story.

    Yes, Snyder is a douche, they would have charged, but you can’t drag in (and normalize) a slur just like that. Two wrongs don’t make one right!

    Of course, the point, as Max pointed out, is to highlight his hypocrisy.
    The fact that people kind of went along with the story, gives even more credence that those who want to build a Jewish identity based on threats and fear of the other are failing. American Jews are very, very comfortable by and large in America.
    This is why 70% of non-Orthodox Jews, who represent 90% of all Jews in America in turn, are currently intermarried of those who are married.

    It’s just very hard to convince American Jews that they are in danger, and this attitude is reflected here too.

  8. joemowrey
    October 24, 2013, 5:04 pm

    Hmm… I wonder how Foxman would respond if the Palestinian National Football Team (yes, there is one, recognized by FIFA in 1998) was to name their team the Hebes. No doubt he would consider it “hurtful and offensive” but would suggest the final decision on wether or not to change the name should be left up to the team’s owner and fan base.

  9. Keith
    October 24, 2013, 5:30 pm

    How about the “Washington Foreskins?”

    • Theo
      October 25, 2013, 10:13 am

      I just swallowed my coffee together with the cup!!!
      Now that is funny!!!

    • Keith
      October 25, 2013, 11:15 am

      As an alternative, how about the “Washington Warmongers?”

      • Donald
        October 25, 2013, 11:35 am

        “As an alternative, how about the “Washington Warmongers?”

        I think we have a winner.

      • ziusudra
        October 26, 2013, 8:00 am

        Greetings Keith,
        rolling on de floor lolling hysterically.
        Yes any’ll do as long as it fits into conquest & war.
        ziusudrra
        PS Could i sneak in ‘Battling Conjones’?

  10. thankgodimatheist
    October 24, 2013, 5:55 pm

    I bet The Onion will be fried for this.

  11. DICKERSON3870
    October 24, 2013, 6:36 pm

    RE: “Redskins is a slur for Native Americans, so the Onion is satirizing in a good cause” ~ Weiss

    MY COMMENT: Let’s not forget about the Apache® helicopter gunship and the Tomahawk® cruise missile! And coming soon, the Kiowa® Warrior (direct fire support) helicopter!
    Why must the U.S. name its offensive military weapons (often used against native peoples in the “third world”) after the Native Americans? How long will this go on? Will the U.S. ever grow up?

    • just
      October 24, 2013, 7:14 pm

      Great point, Dickerson.

      We certainly have a long way to go……..

    • MRW
      October 25, 2013, 1:58 pm

      While we’re at it, Yosemite?

    • Woody Tanaka
      October 25, 2013, 3:38 pm

      “Why must the U.S. name its offensive military weapons (often used against native peoples in the “third world”) after the Native Americans? How long will this go on? Will the U.S. ever grow up?”

      Agreed. This is quite repulsive.

      • German Lefty
        October 26, 2013, 9:44 am

        Agreed. This is quite repulsive.

        The mere existence and use of these weapons is repulsive. Only changing the names of these weapons wouldn’t alleviate the suffering of the USA’s victims.

  12. gamal
    October 24, 2013, 7:01 pm

    perhaps Washington Ragheads, the emblem could be almost unchanged as the war bonnet could invert into a kuffiyeh,

    I would not be offended, which is after all the main issue.

    If American footballers wore less protective gear the injuries, especially brain trauma would be much less, Rugby has much less problems, even though the bizzare American habit of giving teams exotic names has corrupted the sport with the on set of professionalism, Washington Taliban also has a ring to it, emblem a crescent moon and drone rampant, Washington Wahhabi’s, the emblem would be a severed head, preferably recognizably Pakistani, Washington Mamluks, whose emblem would of course be the sodomized corpse of Muammar Kaddafi, quite soon Washinton Eunuchs might be more a appropriate handle for this illustrious team.

    Here in Ja i see American college FB on TV, it is obscene, that young men are put in these ridiculously pressured situations, utterly destructive, the coaches talk with insane intensity, the prizes for success are also obscene, the casualties are extensive I hear, permanent disability affecting quite a few ex college players and even more so those who make the professional ranks, Washington Plegics?

  13. JustJessetr
    October 24, 2013, 7:51 pm

    I’m of two minds about it.

    The Onion is a steadfast anti-right wing publication. So I look at whatever they do in that light and give them a pass. Anyone who reads the Onion regularly should do so too.

    On the other hand, the article is only a paragraph or two, and doesn’t employ the Onions standard format of telegraphed, utterly obvious satire that goes on and on for a piece like this. I think had they done so, they would have also whipped up a picture of Jews in striped pajamas playing football with “Houston Hebes” on their jerseys, and with a hook-nosed “kike” as the mascot cheering them on from the sidelines. Which would have been a lot funnier and obviously done in a kidding way.

    Keeping it short like they did left it open for negative interpretation. But that’s the worst I can say about it.

  14. Les
    October 24, 2013, 9:38 pm

    The ADL has either of two things to do, object to one of its benefactors referred to in racist terms or to remind everyone that the defamation it pretends to object to, applies to everyone.

  15. Citizen
    October 25, 2013, 3:58 am

    “I am not a mascot. I am a human being.” The team does nothing to honor native Americans.
    link to indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com

    #changethename

    Does the name honor or degrade the native American “Indians”? Does it depend on your word associations? Historical word associations that are admiring qualities, or perjorative adjectives, etc? link to nhonews.com

  16. Citizen
    October 25, 2013, 4:34 am

    Compare the origins of the team name “The Fighting Irish.”
    link to college-basketball-tickets.net

    And how does its mascot reflect that name, if at all?

    How about a team name like “NYC Stiff-Necked Jews?” And the mascot? A roving peddler?

  17. irishmoses
    October 25, 2013, 10:18 am

    From: link to en.wikipedia.org

    ****”Etymology[edit] [of the term "Kike"]
    The source of the term is uncertain. According to Leo Rosten,
    The word kike was born on Ellis Island when there were Jewish immigrants who were also illiterate (or could not use Latin alphabet letters), when asked to sign the entry-forms with the customary ‘X,’* refused, because they associated an X with the cross of Christianity, and made a circle in its place. The Yiddish word for ‘circle’ is kikel (pronounced ky-kul), and for ‘little circle,’ kikeleh (pronounced ky-kul-uh). Before long the immigration inspectors were calling anyone who signed with an ‘O’ in place of an ‘X’ a kikel or kikeleh or kikee or, finally and succinctly, kike.[2]
    According to Rosten, Jewish U.S. merchants continued to sign with an ‘O’ in place of an ‘X’ for several decades, spreading the nickname kike wherever they went as a result.
    According to the Oxford English Dictionary, it may be an alteration of the endings –ki or –ky common in the personal names of Jews in eastern Europe who immigrated to the United States in the early 20th century.[3] The first recorded use of the term is in 1904.[3][4]
    According to Our Crowd, by Stephen Birmingham, the term “kike” was coined as a put-down by the assimilated U.S. Jews from Germany to identify eastern European Jews: “Because many Russian [Jewish] names ended in ‘ki’, they were called ‘kikes’—a German Jewish contribution to the American vernacular. The name then proceeded to be co-opted by non-Jews as it gained prominence in its usage in society, and was later used as a general derogatory slur..”
    One more theory traces the origin of the term much earlier in time, to the 16th century Pope Clement VIII, noted for his anti-Jewish stance. Among other things, he issued a prohibition on the reading of the Talmud,[5] in which he made reference to the “blind (Latin: caeca) obstinacy” of the Jews. According to this theory, “caeca” developed eventually into “kike”.
    In addition to the mysterious origin of this term, is that in 1864 in the UK, the word ike or ikey was used as a derogatory term for Jewish, which derived from the name “Isaac”, a common Jewish name.[6][7] Eventually the term kike was developed in the United States in the 1880s, and was used primarily by American German Jews to disparage Jewish Russian immigrants.
    Though there are many theories as to the actual origin of the word kike, the Encyclopedia of Swearing stated the most reasonable and most likely origin of the term is the one proposed by Leo Rosten, mentioned above.[7]“****

    Interesting issue. Sometimes even the use of a neutral term like “Jew” can be derogatory or perceived as derogatory. I think you kinda know it when you hear it.

    I also think the pendulum has swung too far toward political correctness. An example is the banning of the use in schools of Mark Twain’s classics “Tom Sawyer” and “Huckleberry Finn” because of the heavy use of the term “nigger” in these books. I think the term is critical to those works and to excise the term deprives the reader of the flavor and harshness of those times. That doesn’t mean it should be used as a descriptive in ordinary speech.

    I also think the original motivation for using American Indian associated words was probably pretty benign and the use was even laudatory and associated with bravery in combat. That’s certainly the US military’s motivation in naming attack helicopters for American Indian tribes. The term “redskins” crosses the line for me as it’s too explicitly racial and was likely a derogatory term back in the day.

    Interesting issue. I’d err more on the side of a political incorrectness. Banning speech is a dangerous slope.

    • ziusudra
      October 26, 2013, 8:13 am

      Greetings Irishmoss,
      Bravo, very informative.
      ziusudra
      PS When the first English landed at Niew Amsterdam, they were greeted by the Dutch, who laughed at them calling them Jon Kas ( John Cheeze) ‘Yankee’ being
      so pale having been so long at sea.

      • irishmoses
        October 26, 2013, 11:53 am

        Reply

        \\\\ziusudra said:

        ****”Greetings Irishmoss,….”****
        ________________

        “Irishmoss”???

        Hmmm, sounds like age-based slander ziusudra. I assure you this stone remains nimble and spry and gathers not much moss.

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