Forgiving the anti-Semites

Middle East
on 349 Comments

A Passover diary.

April 3. At my Passover seder, I talked with an old friend about when our grandfathers came over to this country, at the turn of the last century. He said that pogroms were happening all over eastern Europe then, random acts of violence against Jews. “Like someone would come into this room and just grab alot of these Jews and take them out and kill them,” he said, looking around. I looked around too, and saw the pogroms with freshness: that it could happen to a bunch of people I knew, in a nice New York building with a pretty view out the window. It could happen here. I’d never thought of it that way.

April 5. I went to an Easter dinner at a close friend’s house. Everyone at the table dislikes religion, but I made it a point to lead a prayer at the start: speaking of our blessings. Later someone asked me about Netanyahu’s election, and a tall thin woodsy guy of about 70 I don’t know that well tilted forward in his seat and said after the Gaza outrage and Netanyahu’s maneuvers on Iran he was finished with Israel, it had lost his sympathy, and he did not feel inhibited about expressing his views any longer. “We need to jettison them.”

April 6. I was washing the dishes when Terry Gross interviewed Philip Glass about his memoir on public radio. Glass told a story about his father’s record store in Baltimore that he and she both found amusing.

GROSS: part of your job when you were young at your father’s store was breaking records because in order – he could return records to the label…
GLASS: It was called the – it was kind of the return privilege. And those were the old 78s, you know?
GROSS: Oh, the 78s, oh, OK. So the idea was if they were broken during the delivery process, they were returnable.
GLASS: Yeah. That was our first job at the store. And it was on the weekends, and we would much have preferred to be outdoors playing around. But we were down in the basement of the store, jumping – my brother and I. My brother, Barton, and I – jumping on records so that we would then put them in boxes by label – Decca, Columbia, whatever the label was – those names don’t even exist anymore. And we took out our – let’s say, we were angry, actually, that we couldn’t go outside and play. We had to break records, and we got over it by jumping on the records (laughter), demolishing them.
And one thing we had to do – we had to make sure the label stayed on it. And by the way, Ben Glass, besides that, he discovered that there were other stores all through West Virginia and Virginia that had this same return privilege, but they never returned them. So he bought up their old records. I think he paid a nickel for each record, and he got a dime back from the company. So he had another little side business going on where he had his two sons breaking the records, then he would sell them back to the company (laughter).

I had a strong reaction to the story: It angered me that Gross had laughed at it and that she had not asked Glass why he felt it was OK to steal from the company. I thought it had to do with a Jewish understanding of ourselves, as being outside mainstream society. We were excluded so we were justified in taking advantage of The Man.

I reflected that after I started dating my wife 25 years ago I was in Minnesota and I’d fedex my letters to her. This was before the internet. And she’d fedex them back, on the Newsweek account. I was living at my friend Tony’s place and he had remarked on it being wrong to rip off a company, and I’d been surprised. At least my wife knew what she was doing. It hadn’t occurred to me that I was stealing.

April 7. I compared Passover seder notes with a friend and he told me what his 5-year-old daughter said during the plagues: “Why did God punish all the Egyptians for what the Pharaoh was doing?”

That night I visited my mother and her boyfriend at his house across the river. By the way, my mother’s boyfriend would never break records. He is very honest, and 93. But we were talking about the Passover story and the real origins of it, when he said, “How do you explain it. Every country the Jews were in we got kicked out of?” I said, “It hasn’t happened here.” “Right,” he said. “I was about to say that. Except here. But everywhere else.”

I said, “Well it’s hard for me to look at history without consulting my own experience, and yours and mine has been free of discrimination. And isn’t it possible that that’s the way we tell the story of our history, that lots of people have been expelled from countries, that kind of thing happened a lot, and we just look at the low points, the persecution, and build our narrative around that? We lived for centuries in Spain and Muslim countries.”

He said, “With very few rights. We had to cater to others. It was humiliating.”

We had tea and I thought to tell my mother’s boyfriend about Herzl’s map of Vienna. When Herzl came up with the idea of the Jewish state, he sold it to a lot of anti-semites by saying that Jews were dominating the new urban professions and causing resentment. He called us an “intellectual proletariat,” and said we were hanging around the stock markets; and he had a map of Vienna real estate with Jewish ownership shown in red, and the map was dripping red.

April 8. I listened to Norman Finkelstein’s speech in Madison on the new anti-semitism. In it he dismisses a survey of British attitudes that are thought to be anti-Semitic by pointing out that, when it comes to one attitude– “Jews are disproportionately represented in media” — the facts bear out such a belief, and ours is not a neutral presence; it helps explain all the Holocaust movies. Finkelstein studied the production. Three times as many Holocaust movies in the last 30 years as movies about slavery and the nuclear bombings in Japan.

I remembered a conversation I’d had recently about anti-semitism with a non Jewish friend in Jerusalem. An American Protestant of the I-hate-religion variety, he asked me to explain the Israel lobby. I said that it reflected a contract the American establishment had made with Jews to drive the economy in the 1970s. We were really good at the four horses of the global economy (finance, software, education, and media), and people thought we were smarter, and maybe we were smarter; Yuri Slezkine says we are the magicians and the priests of modernity; and in exchange for that leading role, the government would support Israel. Brian Roberts runs the world’s largest media company, Chris Matthews works for him and supports Israel.

My friend bridled at the explanation. He had worked on Wall Street; he spoke of all the insider traders who were Jewish. They weren’t any smarter, they cheated, he said. I said, OK maybe we’re not smarter, but that is how I think it worked. Well you are funny, he said; I understand Hollywood.

Cold toad

Cold toad

April 9. I emailed the son of the guy at Easter who said we need to jettison Israel to get his dad’s number. The son sent me a photograph of a cold toad and gave me his dad’s number and I called him on the phone to ask him about his attitudes.

He said he’d grown up with Exodus and later Holocaust documentaries. “For years everybody that had half a heart was in favor of Jews having a place they wouldn’t be killed. Nailing Eichmann—I totally got that. Displacing the people who lived there—that was bad, but I thought it was just on an interim basis.

“And what should have been a sense of shared husbandry of the land—it never happened. They’ve done a magnificently bad job of living with their neighbors. I think human beings are wired to think, if you kill 50 people and that ends a problem, OK. But here that has never ended the problem. And of course they’ve got us on their side.”

He said it went back to the Holocaust.

“The Israelis have never felt a sense of forgiveness about what was done to them by the Nazis. Till they get there they will recreate that experience endlessly. They are in their own prison. They are the wardens of their own freedom. The only way out is to change their feelings about themselves. It’s an old idea, and I don’t know that anybody can ask that act of someone else. Whether it means forgiving your sister, your mother, your brother, or the guy who made you cry, no one else can tell you to do that… Israel has to make that decision.

“But they can’t kill their way out of this. It’s not a fair fight, they have overwhelming military advantage against kids who are throwing rocks. And just watch. There’s always a new generation of young angry men who are willing to pick up the guns.

“The Israelis are acting out this anger from more than half a century ago. And the only way out is to forgive your transgressors.”

I don’t think you can forgive Hitler. But forgive Europe? Maybe that is necessary. It should not be so fresh in our minds, here in the U.S. Maybe that means telling the story differently, understanding our own role. It was never a fair fight. But we always had a kind of power.

April 19. I have lunch with a distant relative who tells me about spending Passover at a Ritz Carlton in Florida. $7000 per head for the week, and so much food– a breakfast of matzoh and smoked fish in the room before the hot breakfast downstairs, a lunch that never ends, a whole candy room with boxes of candy in drawers free for the taking– it was straight out of the Patimkin basement in Goodbye, Columbus, and a shonde far di goyim– nothing she would ever want the anti-Semites to see.

April 25. I watch a Holocaust panel in Annapolis on C-Span. Four authors, and only about forty people in the room. Most of them are older. The authors themselves struggle with the degree to which the Holocaust story is still relevant today. Glenn Kurtz, author of a book on the destruction of one Polish town’s Jews, said he is always asked if the Polish people he met in the town apologized for the killings. He said:

“The intensity of that need for apology may diminish in some sense… We have enough distance to speak to these people and not allow the anger at what happened to overwhelm our capacity to  to listen and try and understand their perspective. So I think there’s a differentiation that needs to be made, from our side, about how we understand what it means to remember, and if that remember is accusatory, then we in some ways close off that opportunity to engage in some kind of meaningful change in other people’s opinions.”

 

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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349 Responses

  1. Krauss
    April 27, 2015, 12:47 pm

    I don’t agree with a lot here but I am awed by your bravery.

    • Refaat
      May 6, 2015, 8:54 am

      For us Palestinians who were born and raised under Israeli brutal occupation, it is people like Philip Weiss who give us hope, a hope of change and justice. In my 35 years in Gaza, I have never met an Israeli who did not want to shoot at me, kill me, humiliate me, beat me, arrest me, prevent me from travelling for my education, interrogate me.

      Israel taught me to hate all Israelis and all Jews. I had the Malcolm X experience of believing all whites(in my case Israelis) were evil. In my late 20’s, I started reading stuff by Amira Hass and later when I joined twitter I got to know some Jews/Israelis who are critical of Israel and its occupation. I realised I was wrong.

      In a visit to the US, I met many people from Jewish Voice for Peace. We spoke, and discussed Palestine/Israel. We ate together, laughed and cried together. We stayed at their places and played with their kids. The courage they showed in calling a spade a spade and standing against Israel’s injustices was a wake-up call to me.

      I realised Israel’s most horrible crime against me as a Palestinian is isolating me and making me believe all Jews/Israelis are evil.

      I now have good Jewish/Israeli friends. Those people, not Israeli wars and aggression, and human rights violations, and iron fist, that give us hope. The bravery those ppl show to stand against Israel’s brutality and exploitation of Judaism to victimise others is crucial to fight anti-Semitism.

      If this bravery is called anti-Semitism and self-hating, then there is determination from zionists to continue their victimisation of Palestinians, and of course inflicting more harm on Jews all over the world.

      • just
        May 6, 2015, 9:00 am

        Refaat~ thank you from the bottom of my heart, and in solidarity.

        (It’s nice to ‘see’ you here @ MW again!)

  2. Don
    April 27, 2015, 12:58 pm

    “Glenn Kurtz, author of a book on the destruction of one Polish town’s Jews, said he is always asked if the Polish people he met in the town apologized for the killings.”

    Maybe I am missing something, but why are Poles expected to apologize for something they did not do?

    • Mooser
      April 27, 2015, 2:20 pm

      “Maybe I am missing something, but why are Poles expected to apologize for something they did not do?”

      Maybe because a couple of Holocaust movies seemed to shift an awful lot of the responsibility to the Poles? Was that “Night and Fog” or “Shoah”? Or both?

      • Don
        April 27, 2015, 6:42 pm

        Thanks, Mooser. I am not familiar with either movie. But what is the point of shifting the responsibility to Poles? I just don’t get this.

    • Kris
      April 27, 2015, 4:08 pm

      Just wait until you visit England. When I was there, I didn’t hear a single person apologize for the Potato Famine or the Enclosure laws, even though there were plenty of Irish people around who might have appreciated hearing an apology from the Brits. In fairness, the Brits weren’t apologizing to the Indian people who were on the buses and streets for the British Raj, either, so they weren’t just singling out the Irish.

      Oddly, here in the U.S., I never hear anyone apologize to the black people in my area for slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, or anything else. No one apologizes to the native peoples here, either.

      Jews aren’t the only ones with grievances. Everyone else, though, is encouraged to get over it.

      • Keith
        April 27, 2015, 5:10 pm

        KRIS- Thanks for bringing this up. Europe and the US have a long and exceptionally bloody history in regards to Third World peoples, yet few in the West acknowledge this or feel any responsibility for the consequences of colonialism, imperialism and neo-colonialism. Even now, most folks seem unaware of the consequences of neoliberal globalization or that US/Europe bear significant responsibility for the disasterous state of much of the planet.

      • Chu
        April 28, 2015, 11:54 am

        Great point. It would be like every time I go to an Indian reservation to get some smokes, I would have to apologize for Wounded Knee.

      • catalan
        May 2, 2015, 9:44 am

        “It’s your fellow traveler Catalan who has stupidly tried to divorce race from politics in nazi ideology”. – Mark b
        Mark,
        Of course your logical acumen is an unattainable standard that we can all strive to emulate. You are right there with Bertrand Russell. It must be fun living in such a logical inner world, free of contradiction or ignorance. Congratulations.
        I actually never tried to divorce anything from anything. I was saying that the complete annihilation of the Jewish citizens of Bitolia, Pinsk, or Thesalloniki did not confer any military advantages. The non Jewish majorities of these places were harmed to a much lesser degree during the war, after all they mostly survived, while Jewish residents were sometimes killed to the very last one. Likewise with the murder of the mentally ill in Germany and elsewhere. You are arguing with yourself if you think that I or others somehow don’t understand that the Nazis used racial, gender and other hatred for political means. I also by no means wish to belittle the suffering of sacrifice of others during the war, such as the Greek and Serb partisans. The fact is that Jews in Croatia, Greece, Hungary, Macedonia and all over Europe were singled out for murder in a genocidal manner. This is our people and we are sad about the destruction of Jewish culture in Europe.

      • marc b.
        May 4, 2015, 9:27 am

        Of course your logical acumen is an unattainable standard that we can all strive to emulate. You are right there with Bertrand Russell. It must be fun living in such a logical inner world, free of contradiction or ignorance. Congratulations.

        well, thanks, but since you don’t seem to have a basic understanding of history or the English language it’s not all that difficult to poke holes in your argument. (just keep swapping out and confusing ‘race’, ‘politics’ and ‘military advantage’ whenever it suits you. only Bertrand Russell will notice.)

  3. eljay
    April 27, 2015, 1:14 pm

    “The Israelis have never felt a sense of forgiveness about what was done to them by the Nazis. … “

    The Nazis didn’t do anything to the Israelis.

    Zio-supremacists, on the other hand, have been committing acts of injustice and immorality against the Palestinians for almost 70 years.

    • hophmi
      April 27, 2015, 2:24 pm

      “The Nazis didn’t do anything to the Israelis.”

      LOL. It’s sad. The Nazis didn’t do anything to the Israelis, except kill their parents, brothers, sisters, children, cousins, uncles, aunts, rabbis . . .

      • eljay
        April 27, 2015, 2:32 pm

        || hophmi: LOL. It’s sad. ||

        It’s not funny. And, yes, you are pretty pathetic.

        || The Nazis didn’t do anything to the Israelis, except kill their parents, brothers, sisters, children, cousins, uncles, aunts, rabbis . . . ||

        The Nazis did those things to Jewish and non-Jewish citizens of countries in Europe. They did not do those things to Israelis.

      • eljay
        April 27, 2015, 2:51 pm

        || hophmi: LOL. It’s sad. The Nazis didn’t do anything to the Israelis, except kill their parents, brothers, sisters, children, cousins, uncles, aunts, rabbis . . . ||

        It hasn’t gotten any funnier, but it is very sad that you conflate Israel with Jews and, in the process, disappear the 20% of Israelis who are not Jewish.

        By the way, please don’t forget to reply to my question to you re. JeffB’s comment. Thanks.

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 5:06 pm

        Which question is that?

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 3:09 pm

        “The Nazis did those things to Jewish and non-Jewish citizens of countries in Europe. They did not do those things to Israelis.”

        I just don’t even know what to say when people are this obtuse.

      • eljay
        April 27, 2015, 3:25 pm

        || hophmi: I just don’t even know what to say when people are this obtuse. ||

        Nazis: up to 1945
        Israel: 1948 onward

        Please explain, o’ Obtuse One, how the Nazis were doing things to the Israelis – particularly to Israeli children – in or prior to 1945.

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 5:05 pm

        What’s the point, eljay? You’ll clearly never understand it. What could you understand if you think that the crime of the Holocaust ended for the surviving victims when the killing stopped.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 3:34 pm

        “I just don’t even know what to say when people are this obtuse.”

        Really? Cat got your tongue sandwich? Seems to me you are saying plenty!

      • Kris
        April 27, 2015, 3:42 pm

        Hophmi, are you trying to say that every Jew throughout human history has been an Israeli? I thought it was the Mormons who signed up dead souls.

        Israel didn’t even exist during the Holocaust, so eljay is correct when he says, “The Nazis didn’t do anything to the Israelis.”

      • DaBakr
        April 27, 2015, 7:34 pm

        to be obtuse about being obtuse is beyond the scope of of anybody with a mediocre mind.

      • eljay
        April 28, 2015, 7:16 am

        || hophmi: Which question is that? ||

        I know that you know very well which question that is, o’ Most Dishonest One, but here is the link to it and here (below) it is in full (again). Please respond and don’t do your usual dodge. Thanks.
        ______________________________
        JeffB asserted the following:

        There is nothing anti-Semitic with blaming Jews for stuff that Jews institutionally support. … Not holding the Jews responsible for Jewish policy on the excuse that “well some Jews didn’t agree” is denying them agency.

        IOW:
        – Jews are a monolithic group (“the Jews”); and
        – all Jews are responsible for the actions of some Jews.

        Do you agree that his assertion is anti-Semitic?

        JeffB thinks you would disagree:

        Hopmi and Yonah are Zionists. They get that Israel is the agency by which Jews as a nation take collective action. … What we do, we do as a people.

        Is he correct?

      • eljay
        April 28, 2015, 7:26 am

        || hophmi: What’s the point, eljay? You’ll clearly never understand it. ||

        The point is to educate me. So, please, educate me:
        – Who, precisely, are “the Israelis”?
        – How did the Nazis (up to 1945) do things to “the Israelis” (1948 onward)?

        || What could you understand if you think that the crime of the Holocaust ended for the surviving victims when the killing stopped. ||

        Of course the crime ended when the killing stopped. Are you actually suggesting that when the killing was over, the killing continued?

        The trauma of the crime, on the other hand, continued beyond the cessation of the actual crime. I don’t dispute that. But are you actually suggesting that no survivors other than “the Israelis” suffered trauma?

        If you’re not suggesting that, then please explain what makes the trauma of “the Israelis” more valid or important than the trauma of any other survivors.

        Please also explain how the trauma of “the Israelis” justifies the past and on-going (war) crimes of Zio-supremacists and the state of Israel against the Palestinians.

        Thanks.

      • eljay
        April 28, 2015, 7:33 am

        || DaBakr: to be obtuse about being obtuse is beyond the scope of of anybody with a mediocre mind. ||

        Trust me, I feel bad for you and hophmi. :-(

        On a more positive note, the two of you can be special friends! :-)

      • Giles
        April 28, 2015, 8:09 am

        If I’m not mistaken, we are told that as many as 80 million people were killed during WWII, including tens of millions of Chinese and tens of millions of Soviet people.

        We are also told 6 million Jews and 5 million “others” (i.e., less important) were killed in the Holocaust, however that is defined. (aside — when I was a young man it was always 6 million others; recently — the recent week of Holocaust Remembrance or whatever that one was called — we heard about 6 million Jews murdered and 5 million others having been “oppressed”; it would appear another revision is being made in the Official Holocaust Narrative wherein we no longer say that the 5 million” others” were killed). The Holocaust deaths — well the Jewish ones — are then raised above the other 70 million or so deaths.

        Sick, self obsessed, racist murderers wallowing in their own imagined victimhood.

      • catalan
        April 28, 2015, 10:07 am

        “The Holocaust deaths — well the Jewish ones — are then raised above the other 70 million or so deaths”. – Giles
        The killing of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and the mentally ill in Europe was unique in that it was detached from any political or military considerations. It was racial. It didn’t matter if you were a catholic nun with Jewish roots like Edith Stein or a child in Ivanhorod (check out the second picture here (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties). Hungarian Jews were gassed in June of 1944, actually diverting resources from the war. Hitler himself in his last testament expressed his pride at ridding the world if Jews, despite causing such harm to his own country.
        As to oppression, my own grandfather in Bulgaria was an attorney, he was prohibited from practicing law and instead sent to build railway tracks. Thankfully the guards were humane to the recruits, otherwise he wouldn’t have made it, he was smart but physically frail.

      • hophmi
        April 28, 2015, 11:36 am

        Eljay (for about the 20th time), asks me whether I agree with JeffB’s statement that: “There is nothing anti-Semitic with blaming Jews for stuff that Jews institutionally support. … Not holding the Jews responsible for Jewish policy on the excuse that ‘well some Jews didn’t agree’ is denying them agency.”

        I do not agree with JeffB’s sentiment at all. Bigots blame individuals for the acts of their communities, whether they are anti-Muslim bigots, anti-Christian bigots, anti-Jewish bigots, anti-Black bigots, or anti-Hispanic bigots. Any community should be free to pursue what they believe is in their best interest as a community without their individual number being attacked for it.

        Of course, that certainly doesn’t stop anyone from saying that there is a Jewish community, represented by Jewish communal institutions, that advocate certain political positions that one may find morally objectionable, just as it wouldn’t stop me from saying that there is a Palestinian community, represented by certain institutions, that advocates positions that I may find morally objectionable. The line between saying that, and engaging in a form of bigotry, is where people obsess over the Jewish community in a way that is out of all proportion to its importance and size, and out of all relation to historical context or geopolitical reality, so as to create the appearance that Jews who support Israel are somehow qualitatively worse than other national communities who support their nation-states or national liberation movements. The other line I draw is when Jews are accused of wielding some great power in American society to the disadvantage of other Americans, which is an old antisemitic canard. That accusation is unfortunately common here, and it seems to be the basis of this post.

      • hophmi
        April 28, 2015, 12:36 pm

        Oh Giles, get over it. No one imagined that six million Jews (more tha half the Jews in Europe) were murdered, or that 91% of Jewish Poles were murdered, or that millions of Jews, and many others, died in concentration camps, or that babies were smashed against walls, or that Josef Mengele experimented on Jewish bodies and many others. It happened, and no one is saying that Jews were the exclusive victims. Stop making up this ridiculous fantasy about how Jews who tell the story of what happened to their friends and family are somehow elevating their victimhood above others by daring to tell their own stories. No one has done as much as the Jewish community has to tell the story of the Holocaust, including the stories of others persecuted and massacred by the Nazis, such as Roma and homosexuals, and the disabled.

      • eljay
        April 28, 2015, 2:03 pm

        || hophmi: Eljay (for about the 20th time), asks me whether I agree with JeffB’s statement … ||

        It took 20 requests because you avoided responding to the first 19.

        || I do not agree with JeffB’s sentiment at all. Bigots blame individuals for the acts of their communities, whether they are anti-Muslim bigots, anti-Christian bigots, anti-Jewish bigots, anti-Black bigots, or anti-Hispanic bigots. ||

        See? That wasn’t so hard. Next time, don’t run scared from such a simple question.

        And thanks for finally answering it. :-)

      • Keith
        April 28, 2015, 5:15 pm

        HOPHMI- “No one has done as much as the Jewish community has to tell the story of the Holocaust….”

        Talk about understatements! And because of Jewish/Zionist dominance in Hollywood, we continue to drown in Holocaust flicks, the Zionist bread and butter narrative.

        Hophmi- “…including the stories of others persecuted and massacred by the Nazis, such as Roma and homosexuals, and the disabled.”

        Ya, sure, you betcha! Hollywood just can’t churn out enough pix on the Roma. Same with the news media. Lots of stories about Roma remembrance days. And hasn’t all of the media just gone overboard reminding us about the suffering of the Russians during WWII, and about how the Soviet Union bore the brunt of the fight against Nazi Germany? Methinks I detect bias in the doctrinal system. Bias based upon power.

      • Citizen
        April 29, 2015, 6:06 am

        Hey, the Gypsies aka Roma can’t complain just because they don’t have their own state, can they? I never hear them complain. Besides, didn’t Mengele love Gypsy twins? And, hey again, don’t they have their own TV reality show, displaying their fondness for tidiness, violence, bling, and really big wedding dresses, not to mention their apparent monopoly on the private paving business? I do wonder if they’d like their own TV sitcom though…

      • hophmi
        April 29, 2015, 11:47 am

        Right you are, Citizen. The Roma suffered terribly during the Holocaust, and were the victims of a genocide, which some call the Porajmos, and others the Samudaripen, and others still the Bersa Bibahtale. The estimates of murdered Roma range from 200,000 to close to a million.

        The Roma remained in Europe. Guess what; the multicultural secular Europeans continue to shamelessly mistreat them, and most of them live in poverty. I can guarantee that if the Roma had a state of their own, that sh*t would not be happening. That’s the beauty of self-determination; you no longer have to rely on people who have a bad record of mistreating you for your safety. Why don’t you advocate one for them? We can put it right in Europe.

      • catalan
        April 29, 2015, 1:07 pm

        “See what I mean. The uniqueness of Jewish suffering. -” Giles
        Unique does not mean that it cannot be compared or analyzed. Everything is both unique and similar to other things. I obviously mean that in the context of WW2 the extermination of Jews was committed with a unique level of thoroughness. Look at Macedonia, where my grandfather is from. Out of 7125 people, the entire Jewish community, only 140 survived. Of the 3276 men, women, and children Jews of the city of Bitolia, not one survived. There was absolutely no military reason for this extermination. Other targeted groups simply were not killed with such thoroughness. Many Jews were not used for labor even, just gassed.

        Now, through history there have definitely been similar horrors. The Muslim invasion of India strikes one as possibly the worst mass murder of all time, committed through centuries. Intolerance has been around forever. You show it toward your Jewish brothers and sisters, whom you accuse of taking over society and being indifferent towards others, when the majority of them are good people getting by. Your comments make me really sad. It’s like humans just never learn. There is nothing unique about your sentiments either, they are all too common. Jews just can please some people. If they are successful, they take over. If they are not and live secluded, they do not want to blend. I am familiar with the drill.

      • catalan
        April 30, 2015, 3:33 pm

        I don’t want you – or anyone – to be any type of supremacist, not even a Zio-supremacist”
        Eljay,
        I don’t care for the caste system in India either, because I am an individualist. I don’t like public executions of “witches” in Saudi Arabia. However, if I want to be listened to by a Hindu or a Muslim, I better learn to talk to them with respect. India has a 6 thousand year civilization, of which the caste system is a product.
        Yelling and name calling, which is what you specialize in (with Giles and Keith), will not change the opinions of those who disagree with you. Learn from commenters like Martin Hughes or Seafoid or even Phil Weiss.

      • eljay
        April 30, 2015, 9:11 pm

        || catalan: Yelling and name calling, which is what you specialize in … will not change the opinions of those who disagree with you. ||

        On the Internet, yelling is done in “all caps”. I’m not yelling.

        And I’m not calling anyone names. I use the label “Zio-supremacist” to correctly describe someone who believes in Jewish supremacism in/and a supremacist “Jewish State”. Do you object to labels? If ‘yes’, feel free to take to task the next person (most likely hophmi) who uses the term “anti-Semite” or “Jew hater”.

        As for changing opinions, Zio-supremacists – even “liberal Zionists” – have made it very clear that they stand firmly behind Jewish supremacism in/and a supremacist “Jewish State”. I’m quite certain that none of them will abandon Zio-supremacism and embrace justice, accountability and equality simply because I stop using the term Zio-supremacist.

      • marc b.
        May 1, 2015, 9:32 am

        The ignorance is staggering.

        The Roma suffered terribly during the Holocaust, and were the victims of a genocide . . .

        No, the Roma were not victims of the Holocaust. The Holocaust is specifically defined as the genocidal program directed at Jewish victims. Again, this ‘confusion’ over definitions, methods and intent privileges Jewish victims, perverting the history of the war, demeaning the suffering of others. As Anne Appelbaum and others have so ham handedly put it, “The vast majority of Hitler’s victims, Jewish and otherwise, never saw a concentration camp”. Yes, Jews and some others. How quaint, as if ‘others’ are the margin of error in a poll, or anomalous data. See also the Jewish Virtual Library which puts it a bit more wordily: The Holocaust is the “destruction of some 6 million Jews by the Nazis and their followers in Europe between the years 1933-1945. Other individuals and groups were persecuted and suffered grievously during this period, but only the Jews were marked for complete and utter annihilation.” Again non-Jewish victims of the genocide are non-descript ‘others’ were ‘persecuted and suffered grievously.’ Having said that, Jewish suffering must be granted the last word, others being subsumed between the Holocaust and the ‘utter annihilation’ of the Jews.

        And this bit of ass backward, muddied historical analysis:

        The killing of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and the mentally ill in Europe was unique in that it was detached from any political or military considerations. It was racial.</blockquote)

        No, the killing of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, was not unique, nor was it detached from any political or military considerations. (I was unaware that the Nazis considered the mentally ill a racial category, but I’d be happy to be corrected.) Tens of millions of Slavs, Poles eastward, were also slated for extermination on account of their race and having taken up too much useful space. Contrary to catalan, the Germans exploited racial theory for political purposes.

      • hophmi
        May 1, 2015, 11:19 am

        “No, the Roma were not victims of the Holocaust. The Holocaust is specifically defined as the genocidal program directed at Jewish victims.”

        Actually, many historians use the term to refer to the Jewish and the non-Jewish victims, and so do related institutions, like the USHMM.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

        “Again, this ‘confusion’ over definitions, methods and intent privileges Jewish victims, perverting the history of the war, demeaning the suffering of others.”

        Not really. That’s in your head.

        “As Anne Appelbaum and others have so ham handedly put it, “The vast majority of Hitler’s victims, Jewish and otherwise, never saw a concentration camp.”

        That is somewhat true, although not for Jews alone. The Final Solution was not promulgated until 1942, and construction of the extermination camps started in late 1941. Before that, Einsatzgruppen were shooting people en masse in forest and gassing them in trucks. I think the percentage of Jews murdered in the extermination camps alone was more than 1/3 of the total. Around 1.1 million were murdered at Auschwitz, and about 90% of those were Jews.

        ” Yes, Jews and some others. How quaint, as if ‘others’ are the margin of error in a poll, or anomalous data. See also the Jewish Virtual Library which puts it a bit more wordily: The Holocaust is the “destruction of some 6 million Jews by the Nazis and their followers in Europe between the years 1933-1945. Other individuals and groups were persecuted and suffered grievously during this period, but only the Jews were marked for complete and utter annihilation.” Again non-Jewish victims of the genocide are non-descript ‘others’ were ‘persecuted and suffered grievously.’ Having said that, Jewish suffering must be granted the last word, others being subsumed between the Holocaust and the ‘utter annihilation’ of the Jews.”

        That’s the Jewish Virtual Library. Others include both non-Jewish and Jewish victims under the term “Holocaust.”

        And this bit of ass backward, muddied historical analysis:

        The killing of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and the mentally ill in Europe was unique in that it was detached from any political or military considerations. It was racial.</blockquote)

        "No, the killing of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, was not unique, nor was it detached from any political or military considerations. (I was unaware that the Nazis considered the mentally ill a racial category, but I’d be happy to be corrected.) Tens of millions of Slavs, Poles eastward, were also slated for extermination on account of their race and having taken up too much useful space. Contrary to catalan, the Germans exploited racial theory for political purposes."

        Yes, and in the end, 17% of the Poles died, and 91% of the Polish Jews died. Both tragedies, one much more profound than the other. But, please, spout more anitsemitic nonsense about the killing of most of Europe's Jewish population was not unique, and tell us what military and political considerations it encompassed.

      • socialconscience
        May 2, 2015, 12:42 am

        Call me naive but i never cease to be shocked by the selective conscience of the zionists

        You can debate over which ethnic/religious group has had the most wrongs perpetrated against it and who comes as the ‘credibility’ victor following such conflicts as WW2

        One clear fact remains

        One thing that ALL genocidal regimes throughout history have in common,

        From Germany, Soviet Union, Cambodia, Rwanda and present day Israel:

        The Dehumanization of it’s victims.

        This process enables the human perpetrators to forgo the use of the most essential human executive function – the conscience

        Feel free to read about any former servants of the IDF, from Miko Peled to ‘breaking the silence’

        The occupying force are trained to see palestinians as only terrorists/potential terrorists, neither as man, woman or child

        Open your eyes to the plight of your fellow human. Condemn Israel’s daily decades long pogrom!

        See http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il

      • marc b.
        May 2, 2015, 9:26 am

        1. There is not one thing I have written that is anti-Semitic. But keep playing your minor role in undermining any opportunity for objective analysis of real anti-Semitism.
        2. So the exterminationist program against the Jews was ‘unique’, but there is no unique term to identify that program? The holocaust may refer to the murder of Jews, or perhaps others? That’s just imprecise, sloppy nonsense. For those who wish to distinguish the murder of European Jews during the war, Holocaust is the correct term.
        3. I see, back to the perverse accounting of tragedy ranking, percentages being the key. The murder of 600 million Chinese would be less tragic than the murder of 6 million Jews, because, well, 48% versus 90% divided by something or other. Never mind that various indigenous peoples have been completely obliterated, their percentages are apparently irrelevant.
        4. It’s your fellow traveler Catalan who has stupidly tried to divorce race from politics in nazi ideology. Again as with so much you both write, this just wrong, either the result of ignorance or of having to tie yourself into pretzels to reconcile logical inconsistencies.

      • DaBakr
        May 2, 2015, 4:42 pm

        @social
        you list half a dozen ‘genocides’ which in ACTUALITY, meaning reality have caused the destruction of the people the genocide was directed against-both in death and the erasing of their cultural imprint on the victorious perpetrator. And then you go and lump in Israel at the end of your list like an imbecile would list “rocks” at the end of a list of fruit. The fact remains that in the 60+ years of the I/P conflict the Palestinian identity has only grown stronger and their population numbers in both Israel as well as other neighboring countries. There is more Palestinian ‘awareness’ in both the EU, US and other places then ever before. This is the complete opposite of the meaning of ‘genocide’ but you still choose to slip it into your ‘list’ .

        And then all the anti-Zionists squawk like hell when Zionists claim there is a concerted effort by its foes to spread lies and exaggerations to try and delegitimize Israel and spread false propaganda among the mediocre minded who know no better. bravo. good work

      • Kris
        May 2, 2015, 10:31 pm

        @DaBakr: “you list half a dozen ‘genocides’ which in ACTUALITY, meaning reality have caused the destruction of the people the genocide was directed against-both in death and the erasing of their cultural imprint on the victorious perpetrator. And then you go and lump in Israel at the end of your list like an imbecile would list “rocks” at the end of a list of fruit. The fact remains that in the 60+ years of the I/P conflict the Palestinian identity has only grown stronger and their population numbers in both Israel as well as other neighboring countries. ”

        I know this has come up again and again, but maybe always on your days off? Here it is again: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Genocide

        “The internationally recognised, legal definition of genocide may be found in Article II of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide:

        “”In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
        (a) Killing members of the group;
        (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
        (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
        (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
        (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

        “Article III of the Convention delineates the following acts as punishable:
        “”(a) Genocide;
        (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
        (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
        (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
        (e) Complicity in genocide.

        “The issue of what constitutes a part of an ethnic group, however, is a contested legal problem – would it be an act of genocide if I killed a single member of group ‘X’, if she was the only X on my street and I wanted to make my street a ‘Y’-only neighbourhood? Cases of this sort would technically fall under the remit of the above law, but are not usually treated as genocide.

        “Hundreds of thousands of deaths are not necessary to reach a verdict of genocide, either, with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia,[5] and the International Court of Justice[6] agreeing that it had taken place in the Srebrenica massacre, in which only 8,000 were killed. Furthermore, the massacre of 900 Ache Indians between 1968 and 1972 in Paraguay under the authoritarian regime of Alfredo Stroessner is considered a case of genocide.[7]”

        Notice that you don’t have to kill all or most of a people. You just have to behave as Israel does towards the Palestinians to be guilty of genocide.

    • Mayhem
      April 27, 2015, 11:39 pm

      @eljay, the Nazis in their negotiations with al-Husseini had plenty planned for the Jews living in Palestine at the time, which would have potentially done a lot to damage Israel and Israelis. Note that in law a crime intended and foiled is nevertheless a punishable crime.

      • eljay
        April 28, 2015, 7:30 am

        || Mayhem: @eljay, the Nazis in their negotiations with al-Husseini had plenty planned for the Jews living in Palestine at the time, which would have potentially done a lot to damage Israel and Israelis. Note that in law a crime intended and foiled is nevertheless a punishable crime. ||

        OK, so:
        – The Nazis had “plenty planned” for the Jewish inhabitants of Palestine (not “the Israelis”).
        – Their plans were foiled.

        Got it. Thanks.

      • talknic
        April 28, 2015, 9:09 am

        Mayhem ” .. the Nazis in their negotiations with al-Husseini”

        Alleged negotiations…

        “Note that in law a crime intended and foiled is nevertheless a punishable crime”

        Interesting theory. Say, why wasn’t al-Husseini punished.

        So a crime actually committed is most certainly punishable ! UNSC res 252 (1968) of 21 May 1968, UNSC res 267 (1969) of 3 July 1969, UNSC res 271 (1969) of 15 September 1969, UNSC res 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971, UNSC res 446 (1979) of 22 March 1979, UNSC res 452 (1979) 20 July 1979, 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980, UNSC res476 June 30 1980 , UNSC res 478 August 20 1980. Oh … and UNSC Res 497

      • Giles
        April 29, 2015, 12:04 pm

        “The killing of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and the mentally ill in Europe was unique in that it was detached from any political or military considerations. It was racial”

        See what I mean. The uniqueness of Jewish suffering. And, of course, we never hear a word about the gypsies et al in any of these endless array of Holocaust remembrances.

        As if the genocide of Africans and natives of the Americas that lasted for centuries and that have left those groups in very bad shape within our society pale in comparison to the suffering of Jews, who sit unchallenged atop our society in terms of financial standing and political power.

        To say nothing of the blithe dismissal of the deaths of tens of millions of Soviets and Chinese.

        Zionism is a very sick mindset.

      • hophmi
        April 29, 2015, 12:52 pm

        “See what I mean. The uniqueness of Jewish suffering. And, of course, we never hear a word about the gypsies et al in any of these endless array of Holocaust remembrances.

        As if the genocide of Africans and natives of the Americas that lasted for centuries and that have left those groups in very bad shape within our society pale in comparison to the suffering of Jews, who sit unchallenged atop our society in terms of financial standing and political power…you would get muchg more out of life and would stop persecuting everyone who is not part of your sick little cult.”

        Yeah, Giles is totally not an antisemite.

        It is patently untrue that one never hears about those groups besides Jews who were targeted during the Holocaust, and untrue that we do not hear about genocides in Africa; are people in the dark about the genocide in Rwanda or Sudan? Was the Nigerian genocide not a major story in the 1960’s?

        Don’t blame my people for your hangups, Giles. You’re more than free to memorialize what happened to the Roma. You are free to read the wikipedia entry on the Porajmos if you want to learn more about the Roma, and learn about some of the reasons why it’s not remembered in the same way as the Shoah is. Stop blaming the Jews. It’s not our fault.

      • Giles
        April 29, 2015, 12:10 pm

        “No one has done as much as the Jewish community has to tell the story of the Holocaust, including the stories of others persecuted and massacred by the Nazis, such as Roma and homosexuals, and the disabled.”

        What an astonishing display of being far removed from reality.

        We never hear a word about the persecution of the gypsies — which is still ongoing by the way — except as a minor footnote to the suffering of the true and eternal victims, the Jewish people.

        Why not start being loving human beings instead of hate-filled, paranoid, extremely self-obsessed, ethnocentric, racists?

        You would get much more out of life and would stop persecuting everyone who is not part of your sick little cult.

      • oldgeezer
        April 29, 2015, 1:38 pm

        @Giles

        As one of the targetted groups I see nothing wrong in their commerating hoocaust day as they do. Sure it would be nice if they highlighted other groups as well but it is understandable that they don’t to a large degree.

        The larger hypocrisy is in western nations where we sign onto memorializing the holocaust of the Jews but not of the other groups. We should probably ignore Israel’s holocaust day and have our own which recognizes all of the victims. As someone said, perhaps you, the persecution of the Roma continues and that likely plays a large role in why we don’t (and persecution of the lgbt community in many places)

      • eljay
        April 29, 2015, 1:52 pm

        || catalan: The killing of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and the mentally ill in Europe was unique in that it was detached from any political or military considerations. It was racial” ||
        || Giles: See what I mean. The uniqueness of Jewish suffering. ||

        One of the disturbing things about Zio-supremacists is the effort they put into promoting the Holocaust as “The Bestest Genocide Ever!”©

        (“The more you suffer, the more it shows you really care. Right? Yeah.” – with apologies to the Offspring)

        Another disturbing thing is their hypocrisy regarding acts of injustice and immorality. They’re content to commit – or to have their hardier co-collectivists commit – acts of injustice and immorality against others that they would not have others commit unto them (or even onto anyone else).

      • catalan
        April 29, 2015, 3:34 pm

        “They’re content to commit – or to have their hardier co-collectivists commit – acts of injustice and immorality”- Eljay
        Eljay, thank you for the kind words. In all truth I have no idea what St. Peter will do with me at the gates. I have done my share of things I am not proud of.
        That said, I have never served in a military and don’t know how to use a gun. I have never voted for any extremists. I treat my employees well and give to charity. I am very flawed but I don’t think my offenses rise to the level you insunuate. Not sure what so irks you in my comments, honestly. It’s like you want me to be a “Zionist” so you can do “gotcha”.
        I just try to express my opinions in a civilized manner. What’s so bad about having an opinion that differs from yours?

      • eljay
        April 30, 2015, 7:27 am

        || catalan: It’s like you want me to be a “Zionist” so you can do “gotcha”. ||

        I don’t want you – or anyone – to be any type of supremacist, not even a Zio-supremacist. My apologies for incorrectly assuming you were one – I didn’t realize that you opposed Jewish supremacism in/and a supremacist “Jewish State”.

        || I just try to express my opinions in a civilized manner. What’s so bad about having an opinion that differs from yours? ||

        I agree that it’s fine to have differences of opinion. So…are you disagreeing with my opinion regarding Zio-supremacists, or are you suggesting I shouldn’t have one?

      • Giles
        April 30, 2015, 8:17 am

        hophmi: “No one imagined that six million Jews (more tha half the Jews in Europe) were murdered, or that 91% of Jewish Poles were murdered, or that millions of Jews, and many others, died in concentration camps, or that babies were smashed against walls, or that Josef Mengele experimented on Jewish bodies”.

        This person reacts as if he or she personally witnessed babies being smashed against walls last week and that they were his family. Instead of being one of many horrors that took place in a world war that ended over 70 years ago. He or she has been “radicalized”by the Zionist community.

        He also calls me an anti Semite for pointing out the horrific centuries long crimes committed against black people and Indians right here in our own country and making the observation that, as the victims of such crimes, how they are, as groups, at the very bottom of the socio- economic ladder in out country. Contrasting what happens to actual victimized groups with the American Jewish, who clearly and indisputably occupy the top ring of that ladder in America and have done so for decades. So the truth becomes anti-Semitic.

      • catalan
        April 30, 2015, 9:32 am

        Giles,
        Civilized people commemorate their dead. The Hindus, Russians, and Germans do it. Everyone does it. I am not sure why you single out Jews for remembering what happened to our people so recently. If not us, who will remember them? If a Hindu writes a book about the horrors of the Bengali famine in 1943, does that mean he doesn’t care about the Navajo nation? Of course not. I am not comprehending your problem.
        As far what you consider to be the excessive succes of Jews in the United States, I have no answer to that. I feel for myself that I have worked hard to attain the position in government that I have, and my ethnicity or whatever has not been a factor. I cannot speak for anyone else.

      • Kris
        April 30, 2015, 10:31 am

        If the Jews who went to Palestine following the end of WWII had followed the precepts of Judaism, instead of beginning their campaign of ethnic cleansing that continues even today, Jews in Israel and the Diaspora wouldn’t have to keep flogging the Holocaust.

        The horrors of the Holocaust (which is over!) fade into history despite the best efforts of hasbarists, while Jews in Israel present us with new horrors in real time to contemplate every single day of our lives.

      • Keith
        April 30, 2015, 3:38 pm

        CATALAN- “Civilized people commemorate their dead.”

        Do civilized people exploit a tragedy to justify murder and dispossession? Is your attempt to sound reasonable heartfelt or merely a veneer? The real deal or Hophmi lite? Time to cut the crap Catalan. Do you condemn Israel’s siege of Gaza and cease fire violations?

  4. Mooser
    April 27, 2015, 1:16 pm

    “At my Passover seder, I talked with an old friend about when our grandfathers came over to this country, at the turn of the last century.”

    Man, that’s cool. We just sort of washed up here, like something deposited by a wave. Not knowing where it came from. I might as well have been born here.

    • Giles
      April 30, 2015, 1:58 pm

      Catalan. How to miss the point. The American ruling class is currently Jewish. Just as it was WASP 100 years ago. A people who have been routinely oppressed and worse by the community at large — think blacks and Indians — does not reside on the top rung of the economic ladder. That is just not credible. So American Jews obsession with being victims — over 100 Holocaust memorials in the USA alone — is not based in reality but is in fact quite delusional. Which everyone would be able to see were they not subject to heavy conditioning beginning well before the age of reason. And for you to deny white privilege and, within that white privilege — Jewish connections and networks — being a key factor in the “success” of many people is willful blindness.

      • yonah fredman
        April 30, 2015, 8:07 pm

        Giles- The American ruling class is currently Jewish. Quote.

        No, this is not true. The American ruling class is disproportionately Jewish, (meaning that, just picking numbers out of a hat here, instead of 2% of the ruling class being Jewish, 20% of the ruling class is Jewish), but it is not currently Jewish. And please provide statistics to back this up, if you really think it’s true. And admit that you’re wrong if you lack those numbers.

      • Mooser
        April 30, 2015, 11:29 pm

        “And please provide statistics to back this up, if you really think it’s true.”

        No, no Giles, you will have to get your statistics somewhere else. Yonah is already using the hat! Maybe he is a shtyfer mogn so his usual sources are blocked.

      • Giles
        May 1, 2015, 8:41 am

        Giles- The American ruling class is currently Jewish. Quote.

        No, this is not true. The American ruling class is disproportionately Jewish, (meaning that, just picking numbers out of a hat here, instead of 2% of the ruling class being Jewish, 20% of the ruling class is Jewish

        Nonsense. Just as there were many wealthy people in 1900 who were not WASPs yet the WASPs were still clearly the ruling class at the time, the Jewish elites are the ruling class in America right now. Ownership of the mainstream media, the Hollywood propaganda apparatus, control of the Federal Reserve, dominance on Wall Street, power over congress via AIPAC and the dozens of other well funded organization devoted solely to “Jewish concerns”. Approximately 40% of American billionaires are Jewish with more than half the new billionaires being Jewish.

        This is absolute domination of the media, the money, and the politics.

        Did you just make up that 20% number Hophmi?

      • hophmi
        May 1, 2015, 11:21 am

        “Nonsense. Just as there were many wealthy people in 1900 who were not WASPs yet the WASPs were still clearly the ruling class at the time, the Jewish elites are the ruling class in America right now. ”

        Really. Tell me more.

        “Ownership of the mainstream media, the Hollywood propaganda apparatus, control of the Federal Reserve, dominance on Wall Street, ”

        The Jews “control the Federal Reserve.” So see, if a Jew get a job, it becomes a Jewish job.

        I mean, it’s not antisemitism, it’s anti-Zionism, folks!!!

      • hophmi
        May 1, 2015, 11:35 am

        “Did you just make up that 20% number Hophmi?”

        You’re confusing me with Yonah. Which means you don’t pay attention, since there aren’t many Zionists here.

        In any case, I don’t make the bigoted assumption that people act a certain way because of their religion when they gain positions of power, so this debate doesn’t mean that much to me. I really don’t have much time for scum who raise old antisemitic canards about Jews and money, or the moderators who help them promote their views.

      • yonah fredman
        May 1, 2015, 12:02 pm

        Giles- Please attach links to your statistics.

        Is it your contention that only the billionaires control America and not the rest of the top 1%. What percentage of the top 1% is Jewish. Again, please include links to your statistics.

        The only aspect that Jewish control in politics is exerted is regarding Israel. If there was some other Jewish angle to politics that the Jews controlled then I might agree with your assessment. But there is not. The only aspect of politics where Jews exert control is regarding Israel and that is a major problem. But that does not make them the controlling elite or the ruling class.

        The marketplace rules America. Jews are prominent on Wall Street and at the Fed. Would someone nonJewish at the Fed change the policy of the Fed?

        Giles, should I call you by some other name in order to make us even? Is obtuseness your form of manners?

      • Giles
        May 2, 2015, 9:17 am

        “The Jews “control the Federal Reserve.” So see, if a Jew get a job, it becomes a Jewish job.”

        So the fact that less than 2% of the population always having the majority of the Board of the Fed — sometimes all members of the Board are Jewish (most recently in 2007) is getting job?

        The fact that the Chair has been held be a Jew for the past 30 years and that the next in line is an Israeli Jew, Stanley Fischer… all just getting a job?

        And that the last non Jew to hold the job, Paul Volcker (1979-87) was the CEO of Goldman Sachs and immediately after chairing the Fed went to work for James Wolfensohn and headed the Volcker commission, shaking down the Swiss Banks for over $ billion for alleged Jewish dormant accounts in Swiss Banks….all just part of getting a job?

        Or that Volcker’s predecessor, A Burns, nee Stanislawow, was also Jewish..just another guy “getting a job”?

        Based on these facts, and these are all accurate facts, my characterization of Jewish domination of the Fed would appear to be a bit more accurate than hophmi’s “a Jew getting a job”. No?

      • Giles
        May 2, 2015, 9:24 am

        “Is it your contention that only the billionaires control America and not the rest of the top 1%.

        Absolutely. Do you doubt this? Do you realize a family making $400k is in the top one percent? Do you think they really have the political clout of a Sheldon Adelson, Paul Singer, Haim Saban?

        What percentage of the top 1% is Jewish.” I have no idea. What is the answer? Provide documentation please.

      • Giles
        May 2, 2015, 9:29 am

        “The marketplace rules America. Jews are prominent on Wall Street and at the Fed.

        And don’t forget the mainstream media an Hollywood.

        And any examination of the facts (and we can go thru those if you like)surely would require that you replace prominent with dominant in your sentence.

        But I get it. It is the magical “marketplace” that results in such Jewish domination. Underlying the core belief of Zionism…Jewish supremacy. That must be it.

        And, I know, I know. It is anti-Semitic to discuss this domination

      • catalan
        May 2, 2015, 10:26 am

        But I get it. It is the magical “marketplace” that results in such Jewish domination. – Giles
        You figured us out. We only network with other Jews. That’s why 70 percent of Jews marry non Jews lol.
        By the way, Giles, the term for what you are alleging is called disparate treatment. It’s in violation of Federal law. You should file a complaint with the federal EEO commission because I am sure you didn’t get that job because the hiring manager was Jewish.
        By the way, I am a hiring manager and I would never hire a conspiracy nut.

      • yonah fredman
        May 2, 2015, 11:17 am

        Giles- Not one link. You made a contention and backed it up with nothing.

        fortune 500, who owns those companies? who runs those companies? provide us with facts and statistics. but no. that’s beneath you.

      • Dan
        May 2, 2015, 1:49 pm

        @Giles

        Paul Volcker was never CEO of Goldman Sachs. at least according to his Wikipedia bio.

      • Keith
        May 2, 2015, 4:08 pm

        YONAH FREDMAN- “The marketplace rules America.”

        Money rules America. Money is power, economic power in fluid form, the primary instrument of social control. The essence of capitalism is the monetization of power.

        Yonah- “Jews are prominent on Wall Street and at the Fed.”

        Yes they are. Careful, Yonah, say that one more time and Hophmi may call you an anti-Semite.

        Yonah- “Would someone nonJewish at the Fed change the policy of the Fed?”

        Hard to say. My personal view is that Jewishness (however defined) probably has little to do with FED policy which seems designed to enrich all financiers at the expense of the 99%. Make no mistake, our financial system is a mess, primarily as a consequence of our PRIVATE, debt-based (bank credit) money system. The US based global empire relies primarily upon financial control backed-up by military power. A just and sustainable society is impossible without changes to the global financial system.

      • Giles
        May 2, 2015, 4:34 pm

        he fact that the Chair has been held be a Jew for the past 30 years and that the next in line is an Israeli Jew, Stanley Fischer… all just getting a job?
        Giles- Not one link. You made a contention and backed it up with nothing –

        I guess you failed to read the post I made. Here it is again. Let me know what is not true about it, and failing that, how it does not show Jewish domination of the Fed.

        The fact is that the Chair has been held be a Jew for the past 30 years and that the next in line is an Israeli Jew, Stanley Fischer.

        And that the last non Jew to hold the job, Paul Volcker (1979-87) was the CEO of Goldman Sachs and immediately after chairing the Fed went to work for James Wolfensohn and headed the Volcker commission, shaking down the Swiss Banks for over $ billion for alleged Jewish dormant accounts in Swiss Banks.

        And that Volcker’s predecessor, A Burns, nee Stanislawow, was also Jewish.

        Then we can get into the Jewish domination of Hollywood and the mainstream media where I will continue to post facts and data to support my view and you can continue to rely on accusations of anti-Semitism to defend yours.

      • Giles
        May 2, 2015, 4:52 pm

        “You figured us out. We only network with other Jews. That’s why 70 percent of Jews marry non Jews lol.”

        Classic zionist obfuscation. Cannot argue with the facts that clearly prove Jewish domination of out Central Bank in charge of monetary policy — so use sarcasm and unrelated (and unsourced) facts to distract from the pertinent facts.

        Wikkipdia says that 58% of American Jews marry non Jews. Throw in Israeli Jews and I am pretty sure that rate drops tremendously. Can you give me the source showing that 70% of Jews (I assume you are talking only about American Jews) marry no Jews?

        By the way, Giles, the term for what you are alleging is called disparate treatment. It’s in violation of Federal law. You should file a complaint with the federal EEO commission because I am sure you didn’t get that job because the hiring manager was Jewish.

        You really think it would do me any good to sue the Fed for only hiring Jews as its directors and always maintaining a Board that is majority Jewish? I don’t. But perhaps it is illegal — it should be. Can you tell me how to proceed?

        And, oddly enuff, I never failed to get a job because the hiring manager was Jewish? Why would you make up such a thing? You wouldn’t be going strawman on me?

      • DaBakr
        May 2, 2015, 5:02 pm

        @gls
        B.Gates, Elon Musk, Buffet, Waltons, the Big Oil families, Big tobacco families, Big Pharma and Big Insurance Co.’s…..all non-Jewish billionaires who may or may not seek to “control” the world and may or may not consider themselves part of your paranoid vision of the “ruling class”. It would be tedious to go on listing the rest of the billionaires who are not Jewish and the WASPS (or white anglos) certainly remain the ‘ruling class’ in the US and EU. The growth of Chinese, African and Indian billionaires has also put a little damper on the Zionists ‘plan’ to rule the earth. But folks who still can’t shake the foundation of their hard-wired bigotry in always looking into the ‘Jews/Zionists’ and their connections to finance and media (they invented Hollywood for crps sake-why shouldn’t they ‘control’ that.) as justification to tag them as the “ruling elite” is simply a product of a true believer and mediocre locked-in intellect. That a few industrious Jews have been able to exploit the new technologies born out of the mid 20thC is probably why you focus on ‘jews as ruling elite’ fantasies. But luckily-for you-you too can figure out how to invent a google or FB or if your a non-Jew invent Paypal and the Tesla or start up a new style Walmart that pays high wages. Then you too can go on to rule the world as part of its ‘elite rulers’

      • catalan
        May 2, 2015, 5:33 pm

        Giles,
        You should hear the Adam Sandler song about Jews in Hollywood. I am most proud of Harrison Ford. Only a quarter Jew, but I will take that. You could do worse than having Han Solo as a member.
        About the Fed, I am with you. I say they give the next chair to Kocherlakota. Let the Hindus get the next wave of hatred. Plus, they already destroy everyone at the spelling bees.
        Han Solo. I think that may be the role of the century. Him and Milosh Forman are my favorite. I wish Jack Nickolson was a Jew.

      • Keith
        May 3, 2015, 4:41 pm

        DABAKR- “B.Gates, Elon Musk, Buffet, Waltons, the Big Oil families, Big tobacco families, Big Pharma and Big Insurance Co.’s…..all non-Jewish billionaires….”

        You mean to tell me that Gentiles comprise over 50% of the power elite? Sounds like anti-Semitism to me! I certainly hope that you Zionists are attempting to correct this injustice!

        DaBakr- “The growth of Chinese, African and Indian billionaires has also put a little damper on the Zionists ‘plan’ to rule the earth.”

        Well that certainly explains all of the shameless standing ovations that our congress gives to all of the Chinese and African leaders! And we are all only too aware of the awesome power of the American Indian Political Action Committee (AIPAC)! Sir/Madam, I admire your courage in speaking out about this. Anything I can do to help that doesn’t involve spending money or taking action?

      • Sibiriak
        May 3, 2015, 11:56 pm

        DaBakr: “….the Zionists ‘plan’ to rule the earth.”
        ——————

        Hmmm…. what I read at Mondoweiss is that the Zionist plan is to pursue Zionist interests.

  5. doug
    April 27, 2015, 1:21 pm

    Phil,

    You think records are broken in transit? Nah.

    Returning broken records isn’t defrauding the record company but the opposite. It’s a standard way to show that low cost, non-replaceable items that one is reimbursed for do not find their way into commerce. Books stores do the same thing. They return the covers from paperbacks they do not sell. It’s an easy way to establish that the books weren’t sold. Surprised you didn’t know this.

    More surprised that Gross didn’t know this.

    • Mooser
      April 27, 2015, 1:55 pm

      “More surprised that Gross didn’t know this.”

      She knows something much more important, that is, don’t step on an anecdote!

    • michelle
      April 28, 2015, 3:42 pm

      .
      returning records that were broken so they could be returned is fraud
      same with the books
      the store owners who unloaded their unsold records for a nickel a piece were at the least as guilty
      .
      it’s a rabbit hole to crazy town Alice
      .
      G-d Bless
      .

      • DaBakr
        May 2, 2015, 5:14 pm

        and newspaper stands rip the headline off unsold papers to return for refunds. this is how its always been in publishing and it makes sense that old vinyl would be the same. Glass (not Gross, though she may not have known either and this is what Glass told her) obviously suspected his old dad of more nefarious deeds then he actually did. Maybe his many years spent in lofty academic and musical institutions (paid for courtesy of who? Dear old Dad and his record store) made him ignorant of how actual working business people survive to feed their families.

        *and yes. thank you P.Glass for your music-even if you know sht about vinyl sales.
        g-d bless

    • Eva Smagacz
      April 28, 2015, 7:40 pm

      Yeh, nice try..

      So the idea was if they were broken during the delivery process, they were returnable.

      Therefore, according to the story, the records were not returned because they didn’t sell, they were supposedly “damaged in transit” and one can argue, “not fit for their purpose”, so subject to “return privilege”.

      • Citizen
        April 29, 2015, 6:22 am

        A scam is a skim is a scam and what’s the difference, if any, between smart, intelligent and cunning, conniving? Just kidding. The boys developed a skill and they were kept from wasting time out on the street?

        Anyway, thanks Phil. I love novel segments based honestly on real life. Takes a lot of editing, eh?

    • doug
      April 29, 2015, 12:48 pm

      OK folks, the actions described to Gross by Glass are not fraud. The purpose of breaking the records is not to claim damage in shipment but only to assure the vinyl records were no longer usable. It is a standard method of dealing with records that have been sitting on the shelves for a while without getting sold. It’s in the contract shops make with record distributers. Keep in mind that the actual material value of records is close to nil. The value is in the intellectual property. Record companies pay for return of record made unplayable to get them off the market. Destroying them is in the contract too and accomplishes that. Record companies do this because it is in their interest for stores to buy more records than they expect to sell. This type of thing is very common in any industry where the cost of goods is tiny compared to the loss of sales by not having product.

      That apparently people (including Terry and Phil default to seeing this as fraud is an indication of ignorance of the industry. Worse though, is that it is thought of as a kind of harmless fraud and fraud is no way to run a business or anything else for that matter.

      This just plays into anti-Semitic tropes when it is an established business practice that was created for the purpose of maximizing net income for all involved.

      However, the FedEx example Phil personally told is fraud and a kind of theft. It should be quite apparent that it was unethical if not illegal.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 3:19 pm

        Thank you, Doug, thank you, I’ve started three times and gave up.
        Also, remember the big shift post-war from 78s to 45s and LP microgroove would have left many of the old 78s to be returned. That might be what it was about.
        I would bet they got broken after the credit was arranged with the distributor.

        However, the FedEx example Phil personally told is fraud and a kind of theft. It should be quite apparent that it was unethical if not illegal.”

        You mean getting married, and then dating? I suppose you could see it that way. I suppose it depends on what they were expecting. I sometimes wish I had gone that route.

      • michelle
        April 29, 2015, 7:41 pm

        .
        @ Doug
        i hope your day has been wonderful
        m
        .
        if what you’re saying is true for this story/time
        then why would the other record sellers
        opt. for half of the return value
        it doesn’t add up
        though the lost revenue would
        .
        G-d Bless
        .

      • doug
        April 29, 2015, 11:09 pm

        Michelle,

        The “Right of Return” (how ironic) is typically tiered. Generally they would allow some percentage return with full or nearly full refunds. This usually was after they sat on the shelves for some time. Some would allow unlimited returns for just enough money to incent the merchant to return them. The point of trying to get back unsold or even used records was to get them out of the market and protect the retail demand.

        The 5/10 cent exchange some kids found is an example of arbitrage or the discovery of small economic inefficiencies to make a small profit. It’s similar to people collecting aluminum cans for the refund while others throw them out because it isn’t worth their time. This, nominal refund amount was offered without limitation because removing them from use protected some fraction of the full price sales. It didn’t matter where they came from.

        Damaged shipments is not what was described though it’s easy to see kids interpreting this breaking of the records as some sort of “taking advantage.” Shipments that are damaged were refunded in full everywhere and that is done immediately after receipt as shipping damage is typically pretty obvious.

        Returned product under “right of return” was broken into smaller pieces and the pieces with labels were the ones piled in a box and returned. Cheaper postage.

      • Mooser
        April 30, 2015, 3:07 pm

        “Damaged shipments is not what was described though it’s easy to see kids interpreting this breaking of the records as some sort of “taking advantage.”

        Thank you, Doug. Thank you.

  6. Marnie
    April 27, 2015, 1:30 pm

    “The Israelis have never felt a sense of forgiveness about what was done to them by the Nazis. Till they get there they will recreate that experience endlessly. They are in their own prison. They are the wardens of their own freedom. The only way out is to change their feelings about themselves. It’s an old idea, and I don’t know that anybody can ask that act of someone else. Whether it means forgiving your sister, your mother, your brother, or the guy who made you cry, no one else can tell you to do that… Israel has to make that decision. “But they can’t kill their way out of this. It’s not a fair fight, they have overwhelming military advantage against kids who are throwing rocks. And just watch. There’s always a new generation of young angry men who are willing to pick up the guns. “The Israelis are acting out this anger from more than half a century ago. And the only way out is to forgive your transgressors.”

    A woman somewhere in the southern US had a grandson who was beaten and lynched by 3 white men. I believe this was in the 1980s. Anyway, being the US, the men were found not guilty. The Southern Poverty Law Center tried a different tactic and ended up bankrupting the klan in that county and the murderers were found guilty not of murder, but of violation of the young man’s civil rights. At their sentencing, one of the 3 men asked the grandmother to forgive him and she replied “Son, I already have”.

    I don’t believe anyone in the world has suffered, and continue to suffer, as much as African Americans, specifically African Americans whose ancestors were in chattel slavery. They haven’t demanded anything more than to be recognized as men and women, to be treated as equals and enjoy the rights and opportunites whites have always had. They’ve fought in every war since the war of independence, but the rights and freedoms they were fighting for was not to be for them. They have not received compensation or a proper showing of sorrow and apology for the almost 400 years of hell they’ve received at the hands of the european colonialists.

    • Mooser
      April 27, 2015, 2:01 pm

      “And you wonder why I say that you’ve simply internalized anti-Jewish hatred.”

      Reach out and touch,
      Somebody’s hand!

      Make this world a better place,
      If you can!

    • Mooser
      April 27, 2015, 2:33 pm

      Sorry, bad nesting.

    • Kris
      April 27, 2015, 3:47 pm

      Exactly right, Marnie; great comment. (Slightly off-topic, I just finished reading “Sycamore Row” by John Grisham. Like every Grisham novel, it is very exciting, but it stands out because it’s about reconciliation and forgiveness. I highly recommend it.)

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 12:53 am

        “Bill Gates (all WASP)”

        For those not aquainted with the acronym, Hophmi is referring to Gates’ Northwest origin. “WASP” stands for WAshington State Product. Like we’re all lumberjacks or something up here. It’s insulting.

    • Mooser
      April 29, 2015, 4:05 pm

      Marnie, it has been a life long source of wonderment and disgust that any American Jewish person familiar with even the haziest outline of the Afro-American story could ever, ever give out so much as a peep about anti-Semitism in America. It is completely inexplicable to me how they can do that.

      • Marnie
        May 1, 2015, 4:02 am

        That’s for sure.

      • Mooser
        May 2, 2015, 11:54 am

        And then they will turn around, and use slavery and the decimation of the Native Americans to excuse Zionism! America did it, so why shouldn’t they?

        If I could read their comments at the dentist’s, he’d never need to use a bite-block! I just go all agape.

  7. hophmi
    April 27, 2015, 1:39 pm

    ” I thought it had to do with a Jewish understanding of ourselves, as being outside mainstream society. We were excluded so we were justified in taking advantage of The Man.”

    And you wonder why I say that you’ve simply internalized anti-Jewish hatred. You tell this story as if there was something inherently Jewish about businesses cutting corners. Oh, heavens to Betsy, Philip Glass, don’t tell me your small business owner dad stole something from the record company! I’m just gonna have to have a lemonade to recover from the shock!

    “And isn’t it possible that that’s the way we tell the story of our history, that lots of people have been expelled from countries, that kind of thing happened a lot, and we just look at the low points, the persecution, and build our narrative around that?”

    No, not at all. Our entire narrative is not about persecution. It’s more that you have trouble accepting the persecution part of the narrative because it undermines your triumphal case for perpetual Jewish safety in America.

    And it’s delicious that you miss the irony of writing about Herzl’s sales pitch to antisemites; aren’t you forever missing the forest for the trees here? Herzl’s idea was primarily about finding a place for persecuted Jews. It was not about selling the idea to antisemites, much as that may have been necessary politics for him, and to the extent that he had to do that, it only drives home the point that these antisemites were hegemonic in Herzl’s time. But you obsessively focus on the negative, which is what you accuse those who focus on the persecution of Jews in Europe of doing.

    “Jews are disproportionately represented in media — the facts bear out such a belief, and ours is not a neutral presence; it helps explain all the Holocaust movies. Finkelstein studied the production. Three times as many Holocaust movies in the last 30 years as movies about slavery and the nuclear bombings in Japan.”

    I see no fact bearing out the argument that Jews are the reason that there are many Holocaust movies, and I detest the insinuation. The Holocaust was an event that took place in many different countries. There have been more movies about the Holocaust, far more, made OUTSIDE of the US than inside of it in the last couple of decades. It is a very well-documented event in fairly recent human history. It’s natural that many films should be made about it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holocaust_films

    You know what there are far more American movies about than the Holocaust? Vietnam. Wonder why. It must be the fault of the Jews.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_in_film

    “I said that it reflected a contract the American establishment had made with Jews to drive the economy in the 1970s. We were really good at the four horses of the global economy (finance, software, education, and media), and people thought we were smarter, and maybe we were smarter; Yuri Slezkine says we are the magicians and the priests of modernity; and in exchange for that leading role, the government would support Israel.”

    You really believe this conspiracist nonsense? I mean, you write things like this and you wonder why people find your views antisemitic. Software? Bill Gates (all WASP) and Steve Jobs (half-WASP, half-Arab) are Jews now? Rupert Murdoch is Jewish?

    “it was straight out of the Patimkin basement in Goodbye, Columbus, and a shonde far di goyim– nothing she would ever want the anti-Semites to see”

    Because Gentiles never spend a lot of money on a vacation, and also because, apparently, you’ve never had to prepare a house for Passover.

    “But forgive Europe? Maybe that is necessary. It should not be so fresh in our minds, here in the U.S. Maybe that means telling the story differently, understanding our own role. It was never a fair fight. But we always had a kind of power.”

    Are you serious? Our own role in what? The persecution of our people? What power are you talking about? You think the Israelis haven’t forgiven Europe? Based on what?

    This entire self-absorbed piece has to be one of the most offensive things you’ve ever written. Oh, but don’t worry. Krauss thinks you’re brave (hint, hint).

    • Mooser
      April 27, 2015, 2:11 pm

      Oy Gevalt the balibatim! They are a closed book to me.

      Anyway, Hophmi, I word-searched Krauss’s archive, and there is no reference to you at all. Why are you so down on Krauss all of a sudden? What’d he say?

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 2:35 pm

        “Phil agrees with me, by the way, that I put up with a lot of nonsense here; I’ve written him a number of times, and he’s always been a gentleman. I think he’s repulsed by a good deal of the commentary here.”

        Feeling perpetually disenfranchised and feeling like no one in society ever listens to you can make you really upset, just as it does most two-year-olds. Phil, by the way, is not in that group.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/hophmi

        See what I mean? I thought everything was all hunky-dory between you two. But then again, a balegoola should know better than to interfere when the quality go at it.

      • DaBakr
        April 27, 2015, 7:37 pm

        @ms
        do you really think your superficial use of the most bastardized of yiddish words lends your comments credibility? Or is it humor that all the non-Jews can laugh at the ‘funny Jew speaker’

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 11:06 pm

        “do you really think your superficial use of the most bastardized of yiddish words lends your comments credibility? “

        I don’t know how I can be any clearer. Hophmi and Phil seem to exist in a higher, more rarefied state I am not privy to.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 12:06 pm

        “Or is it humor that all the non-Jews can laugh at the ‘funny Jew speaker’”

        Gosh, “dabakr”, I’m not getting you at all. Why shouldn’t I talk like my parents and my relatives (except they were much, much more fluent)?
        Do I have something to be ashamed of? I’m pretty much a Jew, you know and I talk like one. My small fund of Yiddish, paltry tho it is, connects me with people long gone who I loved. Something wrong with that?

        Now, “Dabakr”, I make you a promise, if you are ashamed of being a Jew, ashamed of the way we talk, and think people are laughing at us, I promise to try and help you with that problem. Just keep repeating to yourself “I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and darn it, people like me!”

    • marc b.
      April 27, 2015, 2:34 pm

      Because Gentiles never spend a lot of money on a vacation, and also because, apparently, you’ve never had to prepare a house for Passover.

      Interesting. Passover is the equivalent of an open bar, all you can eat weeklong buffet. if you say so.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 2:37 pm

        ” Passover is the equivalent of an open bar, all you can eat weeklong buffet. if you say so.”

        You don’t know the half of it. Here at Moosehall, we refer to it as “Pass-outer”!
        We don’t just recline, baby, we decline over the holiday.

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 2:46 pm

        “Interesting. Passover is the equivalent of an open bar, all you can eat weeklong buffet. if you say so.”

        Yes, it’s an open bar where, instead of drinks, they give you matzah and herring. Superlative.

        Yes, Marc, people, particularly in the orthodox community, who have means often go away for Passover, particularly if they have a lot of children, because changing over the house and cooking is a lot of work. They make a vacation out of it since the kids are off from school. I don’t know what you find objectionable about it. And no, they’re not generally $7,000 a head.

      • marc b.
        April 27, 2015, 3:09 pm

        I don’t find anything objectionable about Passover, and Weiss wasn’t referring to the celebration of Passover. He was talking about an embarrassing orgy of conspicuous consumption and self-indulgence. It seems he is uncomfortable with the lox-filled vomitorium the same way I am by what has happened to many Christian holidays.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 3:12 pm

        “Yes, Marc, people, particularly in the orthodox community, who have means often go away for Passover, particularly if they have a lot of children, because changing over the house and cooking is a lot of work. “

        And, as Hophmi knows, that description (“the orthodox community, who have means often go away for Passover, particularly if they have a lot of children,”) covers, oh, say 90 to 98.4% of the Jewish community.

        Or maybe they are the only ones who count?

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 3:19 pm

        “I don’t find anything objectionable about Passover, and Weiss wasn’t referring to the celebration of Passover. He was talking about an embarrassing orgy of conspicuous consumption and self-indulgence. It seems he feels uncomfortable about the lox-filled vomitorium the same way I am by what has happened to many Christian holidays.”

        Yes, horrible. There’s an old Yiddish saying, “Esn zolstu gehakte leber mit tsibeles, shmalts hering, yoykh mit k’neydlekh, karp mit khreyn, ayngedemfts mit tsimes, latkes, tey mit tsitrin, yedn tog—un zolst zikh mit yedn bis dershtikn!

        “May you eat chopped liver with onions, shmaltz herring, chicken soup with dumplings, baked carp with horseradish, braised meat with vegetable stew, latkes, tea with lemon, every day—and may you choke on every bite!”

        There, happy? We condemned rich people in two languages.

        Of the problems we face in the world today, the tiny fraction of Jews who can afford to go away for Passover in any respect, let alone to the Ritz, is an exceedingly tiny one.

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 3:25 pm

        “And, as Hophmi knows, that description (“the orthodox community, who have means often go away for Passover, particularly if they have a lot of children,”) covers, oh, say 90 to 98.4% of the Jewish community.”

        Huh? The orthodox community is around 15-20% of the American Jewish community. Most of those are ultra-orthodox and chassidic, and the vast majority of them do not have the money to do anything like that. We’re talking a very small amount of people here. That’s why the example is a little silly.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 3:41 pm

        I knew I should have included the full Yiddish text of “Don’t Go Near The Water”! Now Hophmi’s got one up on me. It’s on this “Mudcat” thread:

        http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=30547

        Much interesting history about the song, too.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 3:50 pm

        “Yes, it’s an open bar where, instead of drinks, they give you matzah and herring. Superlative.”

        Hophmi, your sarcasm is perfectly appropriate! Everybody knows consumption of alchholic beverages, unleavened or not, is strictly forbidden over Pesach.

      • RoHa
        April 27, 2015, 8:10 pm

        “yoykh mit k’neydlekh, karp mit khreyn, ayngedemfts mit tsimes, latkes, tey mit tsitrin, yedn tog”

        I’ve always suspected that Klingons speak a form of Arabic. Now I see that H. P. Lovecraft’s Old Ones speak Yiddish.

        Oy, as they say, vey.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 12:12 pm

        BTW, I don’t want to hear any put-downs about lox First of all, good lox means security. Yale and Master are the two most well-known brands of lox in America.
        And never forget, for many people lox is the gateway to sushi. It was for me, and I’ll always be grateful for it.

    • Keith
      April 27, 2015, 7:12 pm

      HOPHMI- “It is a very well-documented event in fairly recent human history. It’s natural that many films should be made about it.”

      Using your links, I find it interesting that there are many more narratives and documentaries about the Holocaust now than soon after it occurred. So that in the 1950s there were a total of 8 narratives and documentaries about the Holocaust. In the 1960s there were 20, in the 1970s there were 21, things exploded in the 1980s with 47, then in the 1990s there were 102, declining to 86 in the 2000s. Seems to me to be a pretty close correlation to the rise in Jewish Zionist power.

      Hophmi- “You know what there are far more American movies about than the Holocaust? Vietnam. Wonder why. It must be the fault of the Jews.”

      Creating more myth history? Beginning in the 1960s when Vietnam became more relevant, we find 52 American produced narratives on the Holocaust plus 60 documentaries for a total of 112 American produced Holocaust films. For the same period there were 69 American produced narratives on Vietnam plus 23 documentaries for a total of 92 American produced films on Vietnam. If we include foreign film makers, then the Holocaust wins 284 to 129. And how many of these Vietnam films are sympathetic to the Vietnamese? How many show the Vietnamese as victims? And yet you are going to continue to insist that this has nothing to do with Jewish Zionist power and to the sanctification of the Holocaust and never ending depiction of Jews as victims, the ideological core of Zionism.

      • hophmi
        April 29, 2015, 1:03 pm

        And you also assume that every Holocaust movie is about the Jews. Another of your ridiculous assumptions that betrays what a paranoid bigot you are.

      • Keith
        April 30, 2015, 12:45 pm

        HOPHMI- “And you also assume that every Holocaust movie is about the Jews. Another of your ridiculous assumptions that betrays what a paranoid bigot you are.”

        Trying to change the topic? I merely checked your sources and demonstrated that you misrepresented the data, rather typical for you. I also showed that the Holocaust theme became more popular with the passage of time and the rise in Jewish/Zionist power, which strongly suggests the exploitation of the Holocaust to create myth-history. I never suggested that ALL Holocaust films are about Jews (your disingenuous invention), however, I believe that the overwhelming majority are. Am I wrong? How many Holocaust films deal with the horrific losses of the former USSR in stopping and eventually defeating Hitler? How many Holocaust films depict the Jasenovac death camp in the former Yugoslavia where primarily Serbs, but also Jews and Roma were murdered? Please note that the camp was run by the Croats with logistical help from the Muslims, both groups allied with Hitler. And why, prior to US/NATOs Yugoslavia intervention, would US Zionist Jews depict the Serbs as the “new Nazis” while supporting the Jew killer Croats and Muslims? Finally, how many Holocaust films discuss Dr Rudolph Kastner and Israeli Zionists in helping in the slaughter of tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews in order to secure the release of about 600 high value Zionists? Since you cannot make a factual response, I expect either silence or more of your typical insults and feigned outrage. In writing about his pre-war meeting with Zionist representative Feivel Polkes in Palestine in 1937, Adolph Eichmann noted that had he been born a Jew he would have become a fanatical Zionist. Birds of a feather?

      • hophmi
        April 30, 2015, 2:05 pm

        “I merely checked your sources and demonstrated that you misrepresented the data, rather typical for you. ”

        No I didn’t. I said there were more American films made about Vietnam than about the Holocaust, and I was completely correct. And as I’ve pointed out, a considerable number of Holocaust films have little to do with Jews, and those that do generally tell stories of Jews who survived, and not Jews who died.

        “I also showed that the Holocaust theme became more popular with the passage of time and the rise in Jewish/Zionist power”

        No you didn’t. You showed that most films about the Holocaust were made between the 1960’s and 1990’s, something that would make sense, since historical films are usually made 20 or 30 years after the events they cover. You hypothesize, based on no evidence, that these films were made because of Jews in power, rather than more mundane reasons, which is that the Holocaust is a major event in human history, that survival and war stories are dramatic, and that Americans fought and died in World War II, and that part of this experience included liberating concentration camps. All are important reasons why movies are made about the Holocaust, its non-Jewish and Jewish victims, and those who played roles in saving victims.

        “however, I believe that the overwhelming majority are. Am I wrong? ”

        It depends on your definition. I don’t consider a movie like Schindler’s List to be “about Jews.” The two main characters are Oskar Schindler, who saved a few hundred Jews, and Amon Goeth, who murdered them. The Jews are really supporting characters in that story, with the exception of Ben Kingsley’s character. But yes, Keith, it would make sense that most Holocaust movies would be about Jews in some sense. The Jews constituted more than half of those murdered by the Nazis in Europe. Many Holocaust survivors and their families live in the United States. Many US soldiers liberated concentration camps. We have lots of books and testimonies to draw from as source material. Is this because Jews as a community are powerful? I think it’s because Jews as a community were the Holocaust’s primary victims, an indisputable fact of history.

        “How many Holocaust films deal with the horrific losses of the former USSR in stopping and eventually defeating Hitler?”

        There are literally hundreds of Russian films about the USSR’s experience during World War II and the Holocaust. Here’s an interesting article about how Soviet films addressed the Holocaust, and how the suffering of Jews in the USSR was universalized.

        http://tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/134722/soviet-holocaust-cinema

        “How many Holocaust films depict the Jasenovac death camp in the former Yugoslavia where primarily Serbs, but also Jews and Roma were murdered?”

        At least two. Here’s an article about it from the USHMM’s encyclopedia and a film from the Spielberg Archive. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449
        http://www.ushmm.org/online/film/display/detail.php?file_num=4531

        There was a Croatian documentary made about it from 1945. Here’s an article about it.

        http://serbianna.com/blogs/savich/archives/35

        A second documentary was made in 1983, called “The Cruelest Death Camp of All Times.”

        An Israeli academic, Raphael Israeli, wrote a book about the death camps in Croatia called “The Death Camps of Croatia: Visions and Revisions 1941-45.”

        http://www.amazon.com/Death-Camps-Croatia-Revisions-1941-1945/dp/1412849756/ref=la_B000APT2RC_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1430415685&sr=1-11

        One reason Jasenovac isn’t well covered is that documentation isn’t great, and the Serbs themselves apparently weren’t necessarily keen on telling the story. By the way, you’ll notice that there really aren’t all that many movies made about concentration camps in general. There aren’t lots of feature films about Majdanek, or Belsen, or Dachau, or even Auschwitz-Birkenau. Most people can’t digest this stuff, and although we have many survivor testimonies, it’s really, really hard for people to talk about it. Even in Schindler’s List, they didn’t have the balls to show an actual gassing; when the women think they’re about to die, the showers come on.

        Look at Rwanda; the most famous American movie is Hotel Rwanda, which tells the story of a couple hundred survivors at a hotel, a lot of them white people, and not the story of the 800,000 people who died in the genocide.

        “And why, prior to US/NATOs Yugoslavia intervention, would US Zionist Jews depict the Serbs as the “new Nazis” while supporting the Jew killer Croats and Muslims?”

        Ah, is that it? Are you a Serb, Keith? I know a lot of Serbs are bitter about stuff like that. It goes, we helped the Jews, and the Jews didn’t use their great power to stop the war against us. In any event, most Jews who supported the Kosovo War supported it because they thought Slobodan Milosevic was committing a genocide against the Muslims in Kosovo, just a few years after Serb militias had committed a genocide in Bosnia. Incidentally, some prominent Zionists, like Ariel Sharon, opposed the Kosovo War, in part because Serbs were helpful to Jews during World War II. The Kosovo War hardly came about because of what Jews thought, though. Or perhaps what you’re upset about is that Jews didn’t use this power you think they have to stop Serbia from being bombed.

        “Finally, how many Holocaust films discuss Dr Rudolph Kastner and Israeli Zionists in helping in the slaughter of tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews in order to secure the release of about 600 high value Zionists?”

        At least one documentary, Killing Kastner, although, as you know, most people don’t look at Kastner’s role in quite the polemical way you do, Keith.

        “In writing about his pre-war meeting with Zionist representative Feivel Polkes in Palestine in 1937, Adolph Eichmann noted that had he been born a Jew he would have become a fanatical Zionist. Birds of a feather?”

        I don’t generally live my life based on what Adolf Eichmann said or thought, and I don’t think anyone else should either. It is as Finkelstein said; questions like this are like asking if Grandma was a baby carriage, would she have wheels? They’re meaningless. All I know is that if I were a Jew living in 1937 Germany or 1939 Europe, I would have gone anywhere that would take me and prayed that Hitler wouldn’t overrun it. A Jewish national liberation movement would have given me tremendous hope.

      • RoHa
        April 30, 2015, 7:52 pm

        “All I know is that if I were a Jew living in 1937 Germany or 1939 Europe, I would have gone anywhere that would take me and prayed that Hitler wouldn’t overrun it. ”

        And when you arrived in that country, would you then have joined a “Jewish national liberation movement” to take that country from its native inhabitants?

      • Keith
        April 30, 2015, 9:46 pm

        HOPHMI- “No I didn’t. I said there were more American films made about Vietnam than about the Holocaust, and I was completely correct.”

        You refuse to even accurately own up to your own previous comment. You said that there were “far more” American movies about Vietnam than the Holocaust. Sticking with the narrative dramas, there were slightly more Vietnam dramas than Holocaust narratives, however, if we throw in documentaries then there were more Holocaust films than Vietnam films. And as I noted, the Vietnam films never showed the Vietnamese as victims of American aggression whereas Jews are always portrayed as victims in these never ending Holocaust flix, which you disingenuously suggest was due to popular demand not Jewish influence in Hollywood. And then you have the audacity to misrepresent the numbers I provided showing that there was an explosion of Holocaust movies in the 1990s which continued slightly reduced into the 2000s, for a total of 188 movies in those two decades versus 96 movies in the previous four decades. Please note that “20 or 30 years after the events they cover,” would be the 1960s and 1970s during which there were 41 Holocaust movies. And I’m getting these numbers from your sources!

        And then what? You talk about all of the Russian films on WWII as if this was relevant. And how many of these films were shown in the US? Promoted by Hollywood? You top it all off by referencing two films about the Jasenovac death camp, the first a Yugoslavian film short made in 1945. Are you claiming that this film was released in the US? The second a Spielberg film made for the Holocaust film archive, hardly a blockbuster.

        As for Jewish/Zionist support for the US/NATO Yugoslavia intervention, I am not talking about passivity, I am talking about active complicity. I am talking about the ADL, the American Jewish Committee and the American Jewish Congress took out newspaper advertisement and organized demonstrations demonizing the Serbs. The whole thing was orchestrated by Ruder Finn a PR firm. The director bragged about being able to overcome the anti-Semitism of both Croatian President Tudjman and Bosnian President Izetbegovich, as well as the history of Croatian/Muslim anti-Semitism and mass murder. This whole episode represents yet another example of Zionist collusion with imperial militarism. So, in addition to being a militant Zionist you are also a defender of imperial militarism. An empire Jew. Figures.

        As for Rudolph Kastner, I provide a quote and a link. “The Israeli government sued Gruenwald for libel on Kastner’s behalf, resulting in a trial that lasted 18 months, and a ruling in 1955 that Kastner had, in the words of Judge Benjamin Halevy, “sold his soul to the devil”.[4] By saving the Jews on the Kastner train, while failing to warn others that their “resettlement” was in fact deportation to the gas chambers, Kastner had sacrificed the mass of Jewry for a chosen few, the judge said.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Kastner

        Your entire comment was yet another attempt to misrepresent reality.

      • eljay
        May 1, 2015, 7:07 am

        || RoHa: And when you arrived in that country, would you then have joined a “Jewish national liberation movement” to take that country from its native inhabitants? ||

        The answer to that question is what Zio-supremacists refer to as “nuances”. Or was it “morality”? No, I’m pretty sure “morality” is “goal + methods”, so it must be “nuances”.

      • hophmi
        May 1, 2015, 11:05 am

        “You said that there were “far more” American movies about Vietnam than the Holocaust. ”

        And that was completely accurate, particularly from the standpoint of feature films, not documentaries that basically no one sees.

        “And as I noted, the Vietnam films never showed the Vietnamese as victims of American aggression whereas Jews are always portrayed as victims in these never ending Holocaust flix,”

        What neverending flix? And why is this relevant? Jews were the victims of the Holocaust.

        “which you disingenuously suggest was due to popular demand not Jewish influence in Hollywood. ”

        What disingenuous suggestion? YOU HAVEN’T PROVIDED AN IOTA OF EVIDENCE FOR THE CLAIM.

        “And then you have the audacity to misrepresent the numbers I provided showing that there was an explosion of Holocaust movies in the 1990s which continued slightly reduced into the 2000s, for a total of 188 movies in those two decades versus 96 movies in the previous four decades. Please note that “20 or 30 years after the events they cover,” would be the 1960s and 1970s during which there were 41 Holocaust movies. And I’m getting these numbers from your sources!”

        You keep aggregated European films and American films. There were not 41 American movies about the Holocaust in the 1960’s and 1970’s. There were 11. One was an international collaboration. Another was Jerry Lewis’s movie, which was never shown to the public. Another was “The Pawnbroker,” which no one would regard as a sympathetic portrait. Another is Exodus, which is about the smuggling of Jews into Palestine, not the Holocaust. Another is Judgment at Nuremberg, which is about the Nuremberg trials, not the Shoah. So your assertions are just sheer nonsense. Most movies touching on the Holocaust were not made in the United States.

        “And then what? You talk about all of the Russian films on WWII as if this was relevant. And how many of these films were shown in the US? Promoted by Hollywood?”

        Here’s what you wrote: “How many Holocaust films deal with the horrific losses of the former USSR in stopping and eventually defeating Hitler?”

        And my answer was lots and lots of them, but not many American films, because Americans films don’t generally focus on what happened in Russia. Why would Hollywood promote Russian films? The point is that Russian films tell stories about what happened to Russians, and American films generally focus on things that happen to Americans. Your assertion was that there are no films made about the Russian experience during the war. That’s nonsense.

        “You top it all off by referencing two films about the Jasenovac death camp, the first a Yugoslavian film short made in 1945. Are you claiming that this film was released in the US? The second a Spielberg film made for the Holocaust film archive, hardly a blockbuster.”

        No. It would be highly unusual for an American studio to make a film about a Yugoslav subject. How many American films are there about Yugoslav subjects of any kind? Is this the fault of the Jews?

        You complain that the Spielberg archive is “hardly a blockbuster.” Are we talking about blockbusters now? How many films about the Shoah have been “blockbusters?” I can think of maybe two; Sophie’s Choice and Schindler’s List. The documentaries are certainly not.

        “As for Jewish/Zionist support for the US/NATO Yugoslavia intervention, I am not talking about passivity, I am talking about active complicity. I am talking about the ADL, the American Jewish Committee and the American Jewish Congress took out newspaper advertisement and organized demonstrations demonizing the Serbs. ”

        OK. You probably supported Milosevic like a lot of radical leftists did. Whatever. The Kosovo War was supported by most Americans, and the Kosovo War didn’t happen because a few Jewish organizations wanted it. I can understand, being the antisemite that you are, why you would think that way. What can you do? If organizations like AJC or ADL hadn’t supported the Kosovo War, rest assured that people like Phil Weiss would say that it was because the Jewish community hates Muslims. Oh well. Serbia is doing well now, especially since that war criminal Milosevic left. Perhaps, since you’re so big on holding people to account, you should apologize for your support of a brutal, hypernationalist dictator like Milosevic, who murdered hundreds of thousands of people, and helped Al-Qaeda get its feet wet. But I won’t hold my breath.

        Your invective, Keith, does not move me, and I’d advise you to stop trying (and failing) to promote your pro-Serbian extreme nationalist agenda here.

      • Sibiriak
        May 2, 2015, 12:28 am

        RoHa: “All I know is that if I were a Jew living in 1937 Germany or 1939 Europe, I would have gone anywhere that would take me and prayed that Hitler wouldn’t overrun it. ”

        And when you arrived in that country, would you then have joined a “Jewish national liberation movement” to take that country from its native inhabitants?

        ———————–

        RoHa –consistently –cuts to the very heart of the matter.

      • Sibiriak
        May 2, 2015, 2:00 am

        hophmi: “You hypothesize, based on no evidence, that these films were made because of Jews in power, rather than more mundane reasons, which is that the Holocaust is a major event in human history…”

        ——

        Good point. And I’m quite sure that if Arab-Americans dominated Hollywood, we would have gotten pretty much the same number of Holocaust and Nakba films that we’ve gotten from our Jewish-dominated Hollywood, and pretty much the same kind of Jewish and Arab character typing.

        After all, Hollywood isn’t about ideology, subtly supporting US imperialism or Zionism, or any other political agenda–it’s about making money. So Jew or Arab in charge, there would be no difference. Money has no ethnicity.

      • Keith
        May 2, 2015, 12:25 pm

        HOPHMI- “And that was completely accurate….”

        No it wasn’t. Sticking to feature films only, since you belatedly decided to exclude documentaries, only in the 1980s were there significant (29) feature films on Vietnam. Moving forward we find that in the 1990s there were 10 American produced films on Vietnam, with another 10 in the 2000s, for a total of 20 films on this major event in US history. Not that there should have been more, mind you, but that interest is dwindling. In contrast, in the 1990s (50 years after the Holocaust!) there were 16 American produced Holocaust films, with an additional 15 in the 2000s for a total of 31 recent Holocaust films versus 20 Vietnam films. What does this tell us? That the doctrinal system of which Hollywood is an integral part wishes to continue to emphasize Jewish suffering and victimhood long after the historical Holocaust. The numbers from YOUR SOURCES provide strong statistical correlation for that conclusion, and for Phil’s statement that: “Jews are disproportionately represented in media — the facts bear out such a belief, and ours is not a neutral presence; it helps explain all the Holocaust movies.” (Phil)

        Furthermore, your obnoxious statement that: “I see no fact bearing out the argument that Jews are the reason that there are many Holocaust movies, and I detest the insinuation,” (Hophmi) is utter tripe. You refuse once again to deal honestly with the numbers as contained in your links to en-Wikipedia’s “List of Holocaust films,” even going so far as to disagree with the inclusion of some of the films on the list you linked in support of your argument. You are unbelievable. Perhaps this is the first documented case of Holocaust film denial?

        Two final points. First, in telling the tale of WWII, the lack of empathy in American films for Russian suffering and for the historical reality of the Soviet military defeat of Nazi Germany stands in stark contrast to this ongoing telling of the Holocaust tale. The invisible 20 plus million versus the omnipresent 6 million. Second, I take it that your ongoing defense of Bosnian President Izetbegovich and Croatian President Tudjman and of the resurgent Ustahi represents the official Zionist position? As for my “extreme left” position, I am happy to be in the company of Noam Chomsky, John Pilger, Michael Parenti and others of principle who oppose both political Zionism and Imperialism. Funny how the two seem to go together.

      • MRW
        May 2, 2015, 1:58 pm

        I take it that your ongoing defense of Bosnian President Izetbegovich and Croatian President Tudjman and of the resurgent Ustahi represents the official Zionist position

        Called supporting ‘murder most foul’.

      • Giles
        May 3, 2015, 7:58 am

        Simply amazing that anyone would argue with the fact that Jews (not “The Jews” as Zionists apologists like to pretend people are saying) run Hollywood. Just look a th ownership and head execs of the major studios.

        This is a well known article from the LA Times in 2008.

        “I have never been so upset by a poll in my life. Only 22% of Americans now believe “the movie and television industries are pretty much run by Jews,” down from nearly 50% in 1964. The Anti-Defamation League, which released the poll results last month, sees in these numbers a victory against stereotyping. Actually, it just shows how dumb America has gotten. Jews totally run Hollywood.

        How deeply Jewish is Hollywood? When the studio chiefs took out a full-page ad in the Los Angeles Times a few weeks ago to demand that the Screen Actors Guild settle its contract, the open letter was signed by: News Corp. President Peter Chernin (Jewish), Paramount Pictures Chairman Brad Grey (Jewish), Walt Disney Co. Chief Executive Robert Iger (Jewish), Sony Pictures Chairman Michael Lynton (surprise, Dutch Jew), Warner Bros. Chairman Barry Meyer (Jewish), CBS Corp. Chief Executive Leslie Moonves (so Jewish his great uncle was the first prime minister of Israel), MGM Chairman Harry Sloan (Jewish) and NBC Universal Chief Executive Jeff Zucker (mega-Jewish). If either of the Weinstein brothers had signed, this group would have not only the power to shut down all film production but to form a minyan with enough Fiji water on hand to fill a mikvah.

        The person they were yelling at in that ad was SAG President Alan Rosenberg (take a guess). The scathing rebuttal to the ad was written by entertainment super-agent Ari Emanuel (Jew with Israeli parents) on the Huffington Post, which is owned by Arianna Huffington (not Jewish and has never worked in Hollywood.)

        The Jews are so dominant, I had to scour the trades to come up with six Gentiles in high positions at entertainment companies. When I called them to talk about their incredible advancement, five of them refused to talk to me, apparently out of fear of insulting Jews. The sixth, AMC President Charlie Collier, turned out to be Jewish.

      • hophmi
        May 4, 2015, 12:27 pm

        I love how Giles is permitted to send through neo-Nazi post after neo-Nazi post. Oh well, that’s what Mondoweiss is, I guess.

        I could care less that Joel Stein wrote a stupid, self-deprecating article in 2008 that was quickly picked up by multiple Holocaust denial websites; it only goes to show that being Jewish is no bar against adopting antisemitic attitudes. Regardless, Stein’s article doesn’t entitle you to use it for the neo-Nazi purposes you are now using it.

      • eljay
        May 4, 2015, 2:08 pm

        || hophmi: … it only goes to show that being Jewish is no bar against adopting antisemitic attitudes. ||

        Zio-supremacists have been showing the world for almost 70 years that being Jewish is also no bar against adopting, implementing, enforcing and defending attitudes and actions that are thoroughly unjust and immoral.

      • RoHa
        May 4, 2015, 7:58 pm

        “Zio-supremacists have been showing the world for almost 70 years that being Jewish is also no bar against adopting, implementing, enforcing and defending attitudes and actions that are thoroughly unjust and immoral. ”

        The most depressing thing about hophmi, Yonah, et al., is not the tedious repetition of “anti-Semitic, anti-Semitic, anti-Semitic”, but the apparent conviction that this judgement is the only one that needs to be made.

        They seem to lack any interest in truth or morality. “Good for the Jews” seems to be their measure for everything.

      • Keith
        May 5, 2015, 3:19 pm

        ROHA- “Good for the Jews” seems to be their measure for everything.”

        May I respectfully differ? Good for the ZIONIST Jews is their mantra. These Zionist Jews have a long history of throwing non-Zionist Jews under the bus in order to achieve their Zionist power-seeking objectives.

      • RoHa
        May 5, 2015, 6:57 pm

        I take your point.

        But I suspect that they think that non-Zionist Jews are not real Jews.

  8. marc b.
    April 27, 2015, 2:18 pm

    “You think the Israelis haven’t forgiven Europe? Based on what?” and buckets of other digital diarrhea.

    [Chen Ben-Eliyahu ] also called on the Jewish people to remember its near destruction at the hands of the Nazis and exact revenge on Germany, now a staunch ally of Israel.

    When the Messiah comes, Ben-Eliyahu wrote, Israel will reverse the Final Solution. “Twenty, thirty atomic bombs on Berlin, Munich, Hamburg, Nuremberg, Cologne, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Dresden, Dortmund and so on to assure the job gets done. And the land will be quiet for a thousand years,” he wrote.

    Israel National News refused to comment on the website’s decision to run the op-ed.

    • Giles
      April 30, 2015, 11:32 am

      Facts as per Keith:

      “Hophmi- “You know what there are far more American movies about than the Holocaust? Vietnam. Wonder why. It must be the fault of the Jews.” Creating more myth history? Beginning in the 1960s when Vietnam became more relevant, we find 52 American produced narratives on the Holocaust plus 60 documentaries for a total of 112 American produced Holocaust films. For the same period there were 69 American produced narratives on Vietnam plus 23 documentaries for a total of 92 American produced films on Vietnam”

      hophmi response to his assertion being exposed as untrue:

      “you also assume that every Holocaust movie is about the Jews. Another of your ridiculous assumptions”.

      My question to hophmi: Which of the 112 American made Holocaust movies/documentaries is not about Jews? Also, which parallel universe do you live in that allows you to hold such insane beliefs?

      • hophmi
        April 30, 2015, 12:01 pm

        Sophie’s Choice is about a Christian victim. White Rose and the documentary, Sophie Scholl: The Final Days, are about students at the University of Munich who resisted Hitler. Even Schindler’s List is mainly about a gentile, and not about the Jews that he saves; in fact, considering the reality that most European Jews were murdered, a highly disproportionate amount of film time has been spent telling the stories of the people who saved them.

        The Stranger is about a search for a Nazi fugitive. Judgment at Nuremberg is about the trial of Nazis. The Pawnbroker is about a Holocaust survivor, and it’s not at all a sympathetic portrait. There are other examples; Apt Pupil is about a teenager who comes under the influence of a fugitive Nazi war criminal, The Reader is about a war criminal, etc. One of the ironies is that though many films have been made about parts of the Holocaust, exceedingly few feature films have truly grappled with the sheer horror of it. One exception may be “The Grey Zone,” which is about the Sonderkommando, the Jews in the camps who were responsible for helping shepherd people into the gas chambers and then incinerating the remains, but most are either stories of people being saved, or focus on events that happened after the Holocaust.

      • Giles
        May 1, 2015, 6:51 pm

        Schindler’s list is not about Jews? Odd, I don’t recall any non Jews in the camp. The Final Days is not a Holocaust movie. Nor are the others you cite, save Sophie’s Choice. You are conflating movies based during WWII with Holocaust movies to support your absurd assertion that the Holocaust movies are not all about Jews. After being caught in the lie that there are more Viet Nam War movies than Holocaust movies.

      • hophmi
        May 4, 2015, 12:33 pm

        “Schindler’s list is not about Jews? Odd, I don’t recall any non Jews in the camp.”

        The Jews are supporting characters in Schindler’s List. The movie is principally about Schindler. Even Ben Kingsley’s role was considered a supporting role. So, no, the movie is not really about Jews to me.

        “You are conflating movies based during WWII with Holocaust movies to support your absurd assertion that the Holocaust movies are not all about Jews. After being caught in the lie that there are more Viet Nam War movies than Holocaust movies.”

        It’s wikipedia’s list, not mine. Maybe neo-Nazism has made you really stupid, because if the movies about Nazis and Nazi-hunting on that list are not really about the Holocaust (as I asserted already), it would only strengthen my point that there are more movies about Vietnam than there are about the Holocaust, and that the hand-wringing antisemites like you go through over the few Holocaust features we do have is really just a lot of bigoted stereotyping. Hate makes you blind and stupid.

      • catalan
        May 4, 2015, 12:48 pm

        Giles,
        You questioned my assertion that 70 percent of Jews intermarry. Actually the rate is 71 percent for non-orthodox Jews (like Janet Yellen). So how do you square a 71 percent rate of intermarriage with this notion that Jews only like other Jews? See the link below. Not that I expect any facts to sway you, but let this be clear to those who read these pages and perhaps may think that Jews are a clique who seek to network with each other.

        http://www.jta.org/2013/10/01/news-opinion/united-states/pew-survey-u-s-jewish-intermarriage-rate-rises-to-58-percent

      • Sibiriak
        May 4, 2015, 1:27 pm

        hophmi: “The Jews are supporting characters in Schindler’s List. The movie is principally about Schindler.”

        ————–

        Yes, actually that’s correct. It’s not about Jews really, it’s about a German businessman saving the lives of over a thousand Jews.

        Furthermore:

        “Ideas for a film about the Schindlerjuden (Schindler Jews) were proposed as early as 1963. Poldek Pfefferberg, one of the Schindlerjuden, made it his life’s mission to tell the story of Schindler. Spielberg became interested in the story when executive Sid Sheinberg sent him a book review of Schindler’s Ark. Universal Studios bought the rights to the novel, but Spielberg, unsure if he was ready to make a film about the Holocaust, tried to pass the project to several other directors before finally deciding to direct the film himself.” (Wikipedia)

      • Keith
        May 5, 2015, 6:03 pm

        CATALAN- “Not that I expect any facts to sway you, but let this be clear to those who read these pages and perhaps may think that Jews are a clique who seek to network with each other.”

        According to the Conference of the Presidents of the Major American Jewish Organizations: “The Conference of Presidents is at the forefront — working with the US Administration, Congress, opinion molders and international leaders — to increase understanding and support for Israel and to advance the interests of the American Jewish community.”
        http://www.conferenceofpresidents.org/mission

        Organized Jewry most certainly seeks to advance Jewish Zionist interests. The intermarriage rate among primarily non-organized Jewry is basically irrelevant. That Zionist Jews should support their ideology and show favoritism to those who support Zionism is the essence of organized behavior. Organizational politics, networking and opportunistic ambition is the norm among the elites as they struggle for power. The very notion of some neutral omniscient invisible hand of meritocracy instead of a highly subjective awarding of power and favors to friends and allies is naive at best, but more likely self-serving propaganda. It is the mantra of Jewish Zionists who wish to foreclose all discussion of the success of Zionism as a power seeking ideology of the Jewish Zionists. An essential discussion, I might add, if one is to understand American Jewish support for Israel and Zionism.

  9. talknic
    April 27, 2015, 2:19 pm

    @ hophmi April 27, 2015, 1:39 pm

    “You think the Israelis haven’t forgiven Europe? Based on what? “

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/reparations.html

  10. hophmi
    April 27, 2015, 2:22 pm

    Ah ha. So because Jews got reparations for the Holocaust (offensive) and some extremist wrote an op-ed for Arutz Sheva (stupid), Israelis haven’t forgiven Europe, their largest trading partner. Any other arguments like this? So far we got a stupid argument and an offensive argument. Anyone want to try a fact-based argument?

    • marc b.
      April 27, 2015, 2:38 pm

      so your scientific poll of Israeli forgiveness didn’t include Ben-Eliyahu?

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 2:49 pm

        Is Ben-Eliyahu reflective of anyone besides Ben-Eliyahu? I’ve honestly never heard any Israelis, including from the far-right, advocate bombing Germany as revenge for the Holocaust. So I would say no.

      • marc b.
        April 27, 2015, 2:57 pm

        Israel National News service is in the habit of publishing ‘one off’ opinion pieces? (do they also publish equally vile opinion pieces from those who advocate pedophilia or take ads for membership drives for Russian castration cults?) so to whom did they think that his op-ed was directed?

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 3:00 pm

        “Israel National News service is in the habit of publishing ‘one off’ opinion pieces?”

        Who the hell knows what they publish? If Hamas publishes a piece in their newspaper calling for Jews to be roasted on a spit, does that mean that all Palestinians believe Jews should be roasted on a spit?

    • Mooser
      April 27, 2015, 2:40 pm

      “Anyone want to try a fact-based argument?”

      Like the “easily accessible sociological data” documenting Jewish self-hatred?

      Oh, by the way Hophmi, I’m a little confused about the persecution Phil has internalized. I can’t figure out if you think Phil has been subjected to too much persecution (not sure I see that,) or maybe too little? Could you clarify?

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 2:47 pm

        I don’t know what Phil was subjected to; I think he’s read a lot about Jewish persecution, and wondered whether Jews were at fault for some of it.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 2:59 pm

        “I think he’s read a lot about Jewish persecution”

        Holey Mole’ (yummmmm) you can catch the self-hatred from reading? Maybe if he wore some kind of safety glasses, or an air-fed hood while he read, it would help. That is one hell of a contagion, this Jewish self-hatred, you can catch it from a book!

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 3:06 pm

        “I don’t know what Phil was subjected to;”

        Many apologies, Hophmi. I thought you two knew each other. I mean, considering the insight you have into his fucking soul.

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 3:07 pm

        “Holey Mole’ (yummmmm) you can catch the self-hatred from reading? Maybe if he wore some kind of safety glasses, or an air-fed hood while he read, it would help. That is one hell of a contagion, this Jewish self-hatred, you can catch it from a book!”

        Mooser, I don’t know what makes people crazy, but I know that when they post these pieces ruminating about how some small Jewish businessowner cheated the record company by breaking records, or how Jews cheat in finance or need to “forgive Europe,” (as if Israelis hadn’t, or as if forgiveness was possible, or as if even this did not echo old antisemitic tropes about Jews being unforgiving, unlike their Christian brethren and their turn-the-other-cheek Jesus [see “The Merchant of Venice”]), it’s a form of self-hating psychosis that comes from a legacy of Jews being persecuted. This is vile, vile stuff. Maybe Phil needs to tell it to his therapist, instead of putting it out there for the bigots of the world to pick over.

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 3:08 pm

        “Many apologies, Hophmi. I thought you two knew each other. I mean, considering the insight you have into his fucking soul.”

        Insight? What insight do I need? He’s laying it out there.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 3:54 pm

        “Mooser, I don’t know what makes people crazy, but I know that when they post these pieces ruminating about how some small Jewish businessowner cheated the record company by breaking records,”

        Oh Hophmi, that record-breaking anecdote is nothing. Have you heard any of the music Phillip Glass has composed?

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 4:44 pm

        A little. Minimalism is not my thing.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 3:58 pm

        “This is vile, vile stuff. Maybe Phil needs to tell it to his therapist, instead of putting it out there for the bigots of the world to pick over.”

        But Hophmi (gosh, I have to say that a lot) what happened to the you-and-Phil “gentleman axis? I’d be very disappointed if that was just a piece of fucking presumption you used to try and beat Annie, the Moderator with. Something like that could cause me to draw disparaging conclusions about your character. I wouldn’t want that to happen.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 4:10 pm

        “Insight? What insight do I need? He’s laying it out there.”

        Exactly! I know what you mean, Hophmi. It’s exactly like the time that sex-obsessed psychiatrist showed me all those pornographic ink-blots! Every one he made was dirtier than the last! The things the people (and, well, animals, too!) were doing in those inkblots! I kept on asking him to stop making them so awful, but he wouldn’t! He was one twisted shrink, I tell you!

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 4:27 pm

        “Mooser, I don’t know what makes people crazy,”

        In that case, what the hell would be so wrong with some common bi-hazard protections like safety glasses or air-fed hood? What about brain parasites? They might enter through any orifice of a gentleman!

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 7:22 pm

        “about Jews being unforgiving, unlike their Christian brethren and their turn-the-other-cheek Jesus [see “The Merchant of Venice”]),

        Gosh, the way I read the play, “Shylock” is the only person who acts with the least amount of humanity or nobility in the play.
        But of course, everybody knows Shakespeare plays only operate on one, very obvious level, and of course, that there’s only one authorized version of any Shakespeare play.

        But that’s all right, Hophmi, squelch away if you want to.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 7:54 pm

        “Maybe Phil needs to tell it to his therapist, instead of putting it out there for the bigots of the world to pick over.”

        You are so right, Hophmi. A therapist is sworn to confidentiality. It would be just between Phil and the therapist, and nobody else will ever know.
        It’s that inscrutability we’ve got, that ability to cloak our actions in a veil of obscurity,and silence, not pierced by ordinary eyes. (Wait, is that us or is that somebody else? ) If Phil didn’t rat us out, nobody would ever know. Except Phil’s therapist. And he knows better than to reveal Phil’s complaint.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 11:59 am

        “A little. Minimalism is not my thing.”

        Well, to each is own. Say, you wanna look at some pornographic ink blots, Hophmi? If you want, they can be anti-semitic inkblots, too!

    • marc b.
      April 27, 2015, 2:49 pm

      BTW, just from a public relations standpoint, your comments are becoming more and more shrill, even more condescending and repulsive than in the past. you might want to attend a training session or two to work on your pitch. according to the scientific polls I’ve conducted, your contributions here are a net negative, with 65% of Zionists posting comments at MW finding you an embarrassment (curiously 13% of those polled were ‘unsure’ if you were an embarrassment. I don’t know what to make of that number.).

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 2:51 pm

        “BTW, just from a public relations standpoint, your comments are becoming more and more shrill, even more condescending and repulsive than in the past. ”

        Uh-huh. I’m not doing PR here, but as far as shrill, I am a newborn kitten compared to 99% of the people here.

        But your comment doesn’t mean much to me, since you apparently judge all Israelis by some nut named Ben-Eliyahu, so right there, we have evidence that your sense of judgment is, how do we say it? Not good.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 5:32 pm

        ” I am a newborn kitten compared to 99% of the people here.”

        You tell ’em, Hophmi! You know what’s wrong with the all the poughkeepsies, around here? Those, those, syossets (not sure the moderator will pass an insult like that!) are ignorant. They obviously don’t know the difference betwixt and between an ad hominy and a good sound psychiatric diagnosis, one backed up with “easily accessible sociological data”.

      • hophmi
        April 28, 2015, 11:39 am

        What is this about syossets and poughkeepsies? I wasn’t aware that you harbored this apparent hatred for towns named after Native Americans.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 3:16 pm

        “What is this about syossets and poughkeepsies? I wasn’t aware that you harbored this apparent hatred for towns named after Native Americans.”

        Hophmi, you’d better brush up your Yiddish, if the women you will wow, or at any rate, make us all kow-tow!

        A “poughkeepsie” is a bad, low person, nasty person. And when I was young, “I’ll send you to a syosset!!” was a threat only uttered under considerable duress. I’m surprised the moderator sent it through, but I got a warning.
        You really should know this stuff, Hoph.

      • Boo
        April 28, 2015, 4:12 pm

        “I am a newborn kitten compared to 99% of the people here.” Hairless and blind?

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 11:49 am

        “Hairless and blind?”

        Thank you, “Boo”! I was afraid to ask.

    • Kris
      April 27, 2015, 4:00 pm

      Hophmi, I’m glad to see that you are actively posting today. Could you please explain what the great rabbi Hillel meant when he famously said:

      “That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, The rest is commentary. Go forth and study.”

      Hillel’s explanation of the Torah makes absolutely no sense, in light of the actions of the majority of Jews since the Holocaust (supporting and defending ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians by Jewish Zionists), even considering that many “Jews” don’t believe in Judaism, anyway, so don’t care what the Torah is about.

      The only way I have found to understand why believing Jews are okay with the crimes committed in their names by the Zionist Jews is that “neighbor” doesn’t mean what most of us might think. That is, does the Torah require believing Jews to be kind only to other “Jews”? And it doesn’t matter how “Jews” treat non-Jews, since non-Jews aren’t their “neighbors” as meant by Hillel?

      I am asking this question because I want to find some way to understand what Jews like you could be thinking.

      • hophmi
        April 27, 2015, 4:47 pm

        Hillel’s maxim is an ideal for interpersonal relations. It’s not necessarily a geopolitical strategy. The world isn’t a perfect place, and just as Christian nations wouldn’t survive very long if they “turned the other cheek.”

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 11:18 pm

        ” It’s not necessarily a geopolitical strategy.”

        Which is one of the things Judaism has proven best at! All those Nobels and hi-tech, financial acumen, religious development, well that ain’t nothin, that was just a sideshow! It’s our “geopolitical strategy” which will show the world what we are made of!

        And don’t forget, world, there’s enough of us to fill three, maybe four fair sized cities! All, each and every one, united by unshakable bonds of, uh mishegos, the strongest unifying political force in the world! Watch out, cause Jews is bustin’ out all over!

      • bryan
        April 28, 2015, 3:44 am

        Is it just not possible that an element in the supposed “New Antisemitism” is the much stricter adherence obligated to archaic dietary regulations than to the modern laws of war, and the complete divorce between the standards applied to “interpersonal relations” and “geopolitical strategy”? There is surely not that much difference between individuals and collectivities: you could “turn the other cheek” or negotiate with an individual, even a Palestinian on personal matters, but, heck, if you show reciprocity towards, or negotiate with a Palestinian collectivity, you’ll get totally screwed? Just try sending an aid convoy to assist the survivors of the recent Gaza earthquake and see if the response is a hail of Qassam rockets.

        There is a deep sickness at the heart of the “geopolitical strategy” exemplified by the famous quote from Golda Meir (“We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”) There is not the slightest evidence that Palestinians love their children any less than Israelis love their children. There may be some anecdotal evidence that Palestinians are distinctly uncomfortable with Israelis as neighbours, but hardly surprising when the only Israelis many Palestinians get to meet are settlers or Israeli soldiers.

      • Kris
        April 28, 2015, 10:34 am

        @hophmi: “Hillel’s maxim is an ideal for interpersonal relations. It’s not necessarily a geopolitical strategy. The world isn’t a perfect place, and just as Christian nations wouldn’t survive very long if they “turned the other cheek.”

        Thanks for replying to my question, hophmi. Much appreciated, though you seem to be saying that the Torah is trivial, a kind of self-help guide like “How to Win Friends and Influence People.”

        But that does explain why most Jews are comfortable with ethnic cleansing, etc., in order to achieve their “geopolitical strategy” of stealing everything that the Palestinians own.

        Do you know of any “Christian” nations? I can’t think of any. Such a nation would live by Jesus’s teachings: share what we have, accept the stranger as our brother, love our neighbor as much as we love ourselves(!), and return good (not retribution and war) for evil. Jesus was not talking about just getting along with the people in our town.

        Most “Christians” don’t believe Jesus’s teachings, any more than most “Jews” actually believe that God meant it when he warned them so many times to be kind to the stranger, and to trust in Him, and not in their own strength and weapons.

        Maybe we would all be better off if Israel did not claim to be the “Jewish” state, since this sets up such cognitive dissonance about Judaism?

        (Cuba seems the closest I can find to following “Christian” ideals, since Cuba is so generous with medical aid to the poor people of the world, has saved the sight of so many poor people throughout Latin America by providing free cataract surgery, and, though so very poor, has made it a priority to ensure that all of its people are fed, educated, housed, and have medical care. But of course Cuba does not claim to be “Christian” at all.)

      • amigo
        April 28, 2015, 2:25 pm

        “The world isn’t a perfect place, and just as Christian nations wouldn’t survive very long if they “turned the other cheek.”.Hopknee.

        Oh , I am not so sure about that.Ireland has not once sued Britain for it,s 700 years of oppression.We turned our cheek and put our nose to the grindstone and we have survived quite well , thank you very much.Apart from the odd dip in the road such as certain folks who got greedy and put us back about 10 years.No , the only tangible act of revenge was the disappearance of Admiral Nelson from his 150 feet high perch in our capital. He no longer looks down at us and we never looked up at/to him.

        We could be called the Il-Litigious nation.Must be one of the reasons we are regularly in the top 3 most liked nations on earth.How is Israel doing btw.Reached that number one spot yet.Still waiting to unseat I-ran and North Korea.

      • catalan
        April 28, 2015, 3:18 pm

        “Must be one of the reasons we are regularly in the top 3 most liked nations on earth -” Amigo
        Not among the top 3 most humble ones though, clearly. I guess you subscribe to “if you’ve got it, flaunt it”. By the way, the royal “we” is cute. I am sure you have been authorized by all Irish to speak on their behalf.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 3:20 pm

        “Thanks for replying to my question, hophmi. Much appreciated, though you seem to be saying that the Torah is trivial, a kind of self-help guide like “How to Win Friends and Influence People.”

        No, it’s much more important than that. It’s more like “The Way To Happiness” or “Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health” (both by L Ron Hubbard)

      • MHughes976
        April 28, 2015, 4:45 pm

        Who could imagine that the whole of the scriptures are a commentary on the Silver Rule (don’t do what you wouldn’t want done to you’)? And only on the Silver Rule, with no direct reference to God?
        This very strange and cryptic remark is set in a story, itself strange, about communicating Jewish law and ethics and about the difference between lenient and strict interpretations. Hillel is talking to a non-Jewish prospective convert. I rather think that the neighbours are not humanity in general or Jewish people in general but the students of the biblical texts: the teacher must not, in interpreting the law, make demands on others that he would hate to have made on himself, thus crushing their spirit. The convert – and prospectively all non-Jewish people who are ready to do all that intellectual work – are being offered a place in this intimate and kindly family. It’s not a very political statement.
        I think that this approach to ethics, with its demand for study, may be a reply to the ‘summary of the law’ attributed to Jesus by some Christians in which the disposition of the heart is everything.

      • amigo
        April 28, 2015, 4:51 pm

        “Not among the top 3 most humble ones though, clearly. I guess you subscribe to “if you’ve got it, flaunt it”. ” catalan

        Maybe they like us for our humility.

      • amigo
        April 28, 2015, 5:03 pm

        “I guess you subscribe to “if you’ve got it, flaunt it”. “catalan.

        “By the way I am not high powered, I am in middle management. I could have a bigger career but I am not interested. As to my degrees they are from Bulgarian, American and British institutions and include both humanities and economics. “catalan

        How very humble of you catalan.

      • catalan
        April 28, 2015, 5:09 pm

        “Maybe they like us for our humility.”
        Nice comeback! I do have the degrees though I don’t claim to remember anything:)

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 5:14 pm

        “By the way, the royal “we” is cute. I am sure you have been authorized by all Irish to speak on their behalf.” “catalan”

        “Amigo”? See, catalan, he doesn’t really need it. His own manner of speaking and dealing with people here validates it. Certainly makes me think “Amigo” knows what he’s talking about, and disposes me to take the harmless “we” conceit in good part.

        And, how are you doing at it?

    • talknic
      April 28, 2015, 8:23 am

      hophmi “Ah ha. So because Jews got ….”

      Why the sudden change from Israelis “You think the Israelis haven’t forgiven Europe” to “Jews “?

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 10:43 am

        “Why the sudden change from Israelis”

        How many times do I have to say it? Zionists always blame the Jews.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 12:18 pm

        “And when you see my religion has a geo-political strategy,
        You’ll say a better ethnic group has never, ever sat a’gee!”

  11. Mooser
    April 27, 2015, 3:16 pm

    “Uh-huh. I’m not doing PR here”

    Huh? Who said that Hophmi? Who? Show me the man, let him show his face! And I will tell him, right to his schnozz: “You listen to me buster, Hophmi doesn’t do “PR”! It’s OUTREACH!!!”

    • eljay
      April 27, 2015, 3:18 pm

      || Mooser @ April 27, 2015, 3:16 pm ||

      Damn, that was funny! :-D

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 4:00 pm

        “Damn, that was funny! :-D

        But Dad, I’m serious!

        I’ve internalized a lot of prosecution myself, you know. Even got off once or twice!

      • eljay
        April 27, 2015, 5:15 pm

        || Mooser: Even got off once or twice! ||

        Hmmm…hophmi does some outreach and suddenly you’re getting off. This section of the thread has taken a rather disturbing turn… ;-)

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 11:49 pm

        “suddenly you’re getting off.”

        Well, probation, anyway.

    • hophmi
      April 27, 2015, 3:21 pm

      “Huh? Who said that Hophmi? Who? Show me the man, let him show his face! And I will tell him, right to his schnozz: “You listen to me buster, Hophmi doesn’t do “PR”! It’s OUTREACH!!!””

      It’s neither. I’m here for the comedy.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 11:51 pm

        “It’s neither. I’m here for the comedy.”

        Oh I see, all that “self-hatred” stuff and “internalized persecution” stuff is just a joke! Hah, hah, very funny. You’re (ha-ha) quite a piece of work.

      • justicewillprevail
        April 28, 2015, 2:54 am

        See, Mooser, hoppy’s gone off his crush with Phil and he’s a fan of yours now. I almost feel sorry for you., the responsibility for his morale.

  12. Mooser
    April 27, 2015, 4:17 pm

    “I reflected that after I started dating my wife 25 years ago I was in Minnesota and I’d fedex my letters to her.”

    That’s the way to do it, too, Phil. No use rushing things.

    • Philip Weiss
      April 27, 2015, 5:00 pm

      Come on Mooser, that was overnight mail, probably 10 bucks. And Id already proposed!

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 5:18 pm

        “Come on Mooser, that was overnight mail, probably 10 bucks. And Id already proposed!”

        We had to go the more unconventional route. First dating, then marriage. I must say holy-head, darn, I mean wed-lock really reduces postage, I just pin the letter to the door to her half of the house.

      • gamal
        April 27, 2015, 6:03 pm

        I’ll scrape anecdote off my foot later but,

        “to her half of the house.” she gave you half the house? Be realistic your garage is not half the house.

        The Yiddish song link was fascinating, an exotic world I never knew existed. All so coy is that what Moyshe Nadir was rebelling against ( who, as you will note in this link, is well wrapped up as his wife also confined him to the car port )

        http://www.laits.utexas.edu/gottesman/nadir.html

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 6:58 pm

        “Be realistic your garage is not half the house.”

        What can I say, “gamal”. It was like dividing up a gold mine.

      • Mooser
        May 3, 2015, 3:48 pm

        “Come on Mooser, that was overnight mail, probably 10 bucks. And Id already proposed!”

        It still might be considered a kind of fraud. There’s nothing like the real thing.

  13. hophmi
    April 27, 2015, 4:43 pm

    Alcoholic beverages aren’t forbidden on Pesach. They just have to be kosher for Pesach.

    • Mooser
      April 27, 2015, 5:24 pm

      “Alcoholic beverages aren’t forbidden on Pesach. They just have to be kosher for Pesach.”

      Hey, does it really matter if there’s no booze at Passover? After all the holiday is more about the bit of herb, or so I’ve heard.

      • Mooser
        April 27, 2015, 8:13 pm

        “They just have to be kosher for Pesach.”

        Hophmi, you just cleared up a little mystery in my life. Like any normal kid a year or two past Bar Mitvah in ’66 or ’67, I was alchohol-curious. And the Passover ritual, as I’m sure you know involves obligatory glasses of wine. So I understood why the adults at the Seder were loosened up enough to say: “Oh, if he’s so curious, let him drink as much as he wants!” That I understood. But I never before understood why they gave me an ornate decanter of old, (possibly home-brewed) slivovich to do it with. You may have supplied the answer.
        Anyway, it answered my questions about alcohol, I can still see the lobby of that apartment bldg spinning around me. We will draw a discreet curtain over the ride home. But I I felt like I was headed for a syosset until we got there.

      • Mooser
        April 30, 2015, 3:22 pm

        It’s very possible the plum brandy which taught me a valuable lesson about overindulgence, and so cheaply (I didn’t have to drive home) was the only KFP liquor. No wait, it must of been, because the adults were served a bit of it. But I must wonder, is KFCKFP? Good question.

  14. michelle
    April 27, 2015, 5:06 pm

    .
    is it about forgivness or understanding
    .
    pity the mind heart & soul of the oppresor
    for ‘their’ prison is the hardest to unlock
    .
    pray often to never walk in those shoes
    .
    full circle thoughts
    .
    G-d Bless
    .

  15. Danaa
    April 27, 2015, 7:09 pm

    This is the second year I did not have any urge to go to a seder of any kind. Not that in years past the urge was strong enough to move me more than a few miles either way, but still, there was a little tingle there, like a secret voice that tags on an invisible string, one i thought was long buried.

    But something grievous must have happened for the secret string to go all but silent. It might have been the last atrocities visited upon the Gazans. Perhaps not so much the ordeal the Palestinians are forced to through (which, after all has become something of a yearly, monthly, daily ritual, much as the pain that was inflicted upon African Slave descendants over centuries); may be it was the realization that Israelis – the vast majority thereof – have become, en mass inured to the suffering of others deemed “not of them”. And in the process lost not only chunks of their collective humanity, but the soul of the history jewish people through the centuries strove so hard to keep up. Israelis, and the Jewish people who support the obnoxious israeli reality have, in my eyes, lost the moral status (both low and high ground) that allowed them to discourse on persecutions past, their own or others’. Or to continue to pretend that their Seder or Yom Kippur rituals are anything but a triumphalist tribal chest beating.

    So passover for me, a thoroughly secular ex-Israeli, has over the years become an empty ritual, empty of meaning any higher or larger than an excuse for a familial get together, where numerous courses of specialty dishes are sampled, while interspersed by [hurried and condensed] reacitations from an old book that, at its esssence, seeks to portray jews as rightful inheritors of the privilege to lecture others. The passover ritual for me, seems to side-step, as it does for most people, deep truths, such as the unrighteousness of over-the-top celebration of deliverance from persecution by a people who then proceeded to become vengeful, arrogant and high minded themselves. The entire occasion, far from solemn, has, for me, become kind of a sad symbol of the moral degradation suffered by those who insist on remaining blind to their own increasingly cold hearts, now encased in thick layers of icy sleet.

    The very last time I attended a seder of any kind, I found it depressing, the opposite of uplifting. The hagadah lithurgy serving as a sad chorus accompanying a collective descent into a special purgatory, the kind reserved for those who were meant to learn something from history but didn’t and wouldn’t.

    This year, I spent part of passover night at the Gym where I joined the practitioners of other rituals that, in the end, serve well to highlight the human condition which, at its heart, is a rage about its own finiteness. At the Gym, propelled by our own exertions, we can entertain momentary visions of immortality and power over fate, from which, if we are wise, we’ll do well to recover as soon as the mirror tells us that no, despite all the hard work, we have not shed thirty years in an evening. I thought a solid session at the Gym will make for a nice substitute ritual where, unlike the hagadah, partakes of some measure of humility in the face of our own illusions and finds redemption in that.

    An evening spent in the company of utter strangers who nonetheless are glued together by a a bond deeper than any individual or collective history. So i think I like the gym people better than I like the Passover people. They even have their special little recipes and musical interludes. And, unlike the end of the seder, where we get to feel a bit stuffed up with too much food and drink, and often not nearly the kind of good conversation Phil somehow manages to have, at the end of a well-spent Gym session, one feels truly uplifted.

    Anyways, I am convinced that every tiny little triumph over eternity counts, and Passover just doesn’t cut it in that department any longer. At least not for me.

    • Mooser
      April 27, 2015, 11:54 pm

      This is the second year I did not have any urge to go to a seder of any kind.

      That’s all right, Danaa, I never drank slivovich again since that long-ago Pesach.

      • Mooser
        May 4, 2015, 1:10 pm

        “That’s all right, Danaa, I never drank slivovich again since that long-ago Pesach.”

        Anyway, by next Pesach I had sworn off liquor, and started raiding medicine cabinets. Much better stocked than the bar, anyway, too.

    • michelle
      April 28, 2015, 5:39 am

      .
      @Danaa
      .
      it sounds like the sedar needs you
      .
      it’s about love
      it’s about G-d
      .
      G-d Bless
      .

      • Danaa
        April 28, 2015, 12:48 pm

        Michelle – what is “G-d”? any one in particular? (there are so many G-Ds!).

        As for “love” – may be you need a better translation of the hagadah?

        And it is, I believe “seder”, not “sedar” (check you CZ dictionary…or the Book of Selections -from-Left-Behind).

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 3:28 pm

        Danaa, I’ve been keeping track, in a small way, and so far I’ve seen (in many different people’s posts, of course)”god”, “God” “GOD” and “G-d and “G-D”. And “G_d”, too.
        Can you imagine what He goes through trying to cash a check?

        “I’m sorry, Sir, but this check must be endorsed by each one in the Trinity”

        “Look here, teller, do you know who I am?”

        “Well, to tell You the truth, it’s something I’ve been pondering my whole life. I’m not sure I can really grasp it. I might mention the extreme male-gender identification thing presents a problem, too”

        See what I mean?

      • michelle
        April 28, 2015, 4:47 pm

        .
        Danna
        i hope you are having a beautiful day
        m
        .
        your second post it makes where you are comming from much more clear
        .
        as for ” – what is “G-d”? …”
        that is a question each of us can only answer for ourselves
        .
        we should all try to be who we say we are
        .
        G-d Bless
        .

      • Danaa
        April 28, 2015, 4:47 pm

        Mooser, but you forgot “Gawd”! that I believe is one of the more modern additions to the many names of The One.

        I do see the cash checking difficulty – or the gawd awful TSA quandry when checking against the No-Fly data base .

        We need some standards, I says!

      • michelle
        April 28, 2015, 4:52 pm

        .
        which is more oppressive walls or doors
        .
        G-d Bless
        .

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 5:22 pm

        “as for ” – what is “G-d”? …”
        that is a question each of us can only answer for ourselves”

        At one time, yes, that was, sadly, true. But these days, the funds for a check can be verified over data lines in just a few seconds.

      • RoHa
        April 29, 2015, 2:01 am

        “we should all try to be who we say we are”

        I tried for a long time, but with no success, so I’ve stopped saying I’m the King of Denmark.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 3:29 pm

        “I’ve stopped saying I’m the King of Denmark.”

        You can go on saying that, Your Majesty. The check cleared.

      • michelle
        April 30, 2015, 2:34 pm

        .
        @ RoHa
        if you’re a king be a good one
        lift your subjects up
        .
        G-d Bless
        .

      • RoHa
        April 30, 2015, 8:10 pm

        But I am not a king. In spite of my best efforts, the Danes still keep Margrethe as their monarch.

        So instead of trying to be what I say I am, I have to stop saying it.

      • michelle
        May 1, 2015, 7:45 pm

        .
        a king is a leader of a state/land/property
        so call your land denmark and lead
        .
        be who you say you are
        .
        G-d Bless

      • RoHa
        May 2, 2015, 1:31 am

        “king is a leader of a state/land/property so call your land denmark and lead . ”

        That is really silly. I live in Australia. Pretending it is Denmark would be loonier than trying to be King of Denmark. Even my craziness has limits.

    • jon s
      April 28, 2015, 4:50 pm

      I find it sad that Danaa feels so alienated from her people’s traditions and heritage , that she preferred not to attend a seder.
      The seder can be conducted in a way that preserves the traditions, while also relating to present-day concerns. We can tell the story of deliverance from bondage while also emphasizing the danger of becoming oppressors ourselves.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 5:28 pm

        “We can tell the story of deliverance from bondage while also emphasizing the danger of becoming oppressors ourselves.”

        And G-d, G-D, and God forbid that ever happens. Jews as oppressors? Really, “Jon s” if it wasn’t for our superior ethical standards which require us to take everything into account, and face up to hard realities, like the ethics and truth-obsessed people we is, the thought would be almost laughable! Oppressors? Who, us?
        Still, I applaud you for taking that infinitely remote contingency into account. Ha-ha-ha, like it could happen.

      • Danaa
        April 28, 2015, 7:14 pm

        jon s, as my comment said, my realization was that the very last people who have a right to lecture to others about “deliverance from bondage” are the Jewish people of israel accompanied by their zionist brethern in the West. Be they liberal or right wing fascists (cf. Republican types) it matters not, because collectively, those jews who failed to repent for the grievous injuries committed by their own cohorts cannot be the ones extoling humanist values, as if they became some kind of spiritualized wise pacifists in the mold of Ghandi.

        Currently the great israelite people (some call them jews. I prefer not to engage in name calling on account of attachment to precision) are engaged in one of the most brutal, cold hearted and evil persecution of another people because of who they are. This persecution may not hold candle to the Boko harams or ISIS of the moment but has a unique place as one of the most crass, insidious, cruel and long term persecutions that the world has seen in over 70 years. No sooner were people delivered from concentration camps that they turned around and herded over a million other people into the ghetto of Gaza (all in the hope that one of these days, the world will be too preoccupied with some other disaster to note that the liquidation process has started). Murdering 500 children in a month of cold-bloodied shooting at humans whose only crime was that they happened not to be jewish and descended from those who were brutally exiled from their own homes, is something that the Pharoah probably would have been proud of – shooting at fish in a barrel is so much more efficient than having them die from the travails of slavery and toil!

        So, I ask the ffgth question, the one left unspoken in the hagada – who are these people, sitting around their precious Seder table, reciting platitudes and exhortations for the blood of their enemies, who are they to have the right to demand that we all look elsewhere, avert our eyes as they go about their torrid little business of finding a way to get rid of an inconvenient people? who are they that can play deaf and dumb as bombs tear children and babies apart? who are they that I should want to listen to their sermons of “deliverance”? and praises to a blood-thirsty god?

        In the past, knowing who I had around the table with me, listening to them that know no mercy recite the messages of deliverance and thanks to a cruel deliverer, was, at times not unlike listening to Dracula lecturing about the virtues of Type O blood. Or Pol Pot singing the praises of “humane” population control. It is not surprising that them whose hands are deeply bloodied and whose hearts are shriveled with the sin of triumphalism are those who keep heaping praise upon a lord that knows no mercy every year. Why shouldn’t they? after all, they keep getting away with it, so their god must be powerful indeed!

        Basically, my problem with the Seder is that it’s a disingenuous and meaningless ceremony which carries no message other than – “it’s good to be on top rather than on the bottom”. What other enlightening message have you found in the haggada, jon s? may be you can insert some modern, wanna-be uplifting Tikun Olam messages there. Something about israeli doctors flying to Nepal with great fanfare to save a few children for the camera. Something about supporting gay liberation etc etc (insert whatever passes for the liberal value of the day). May be you can, because in America anything is possible. All messages can be rewritten. All villainous acts can be re-branded as mercy killing acts. But I, with my simple analytic mind, find little that is actually spiritual in the Haggada, little that can be considered enlightened, and even less of that quality of grace and redemption that frankly belongs to a certain break-away sect once known collectively as Christianity (yes, yes, I know. when it comes to branding, Paul was no slouch).

        And, mind you, it’s not just Palestinians I am thinking about, but the Iraqis that fell victim to the neocon policies peddled by the full court jewish establishment in the US (give or take a few saintly people like Judt and Chomsky and Greenwald and another few hundred) and the Syrian people now subjected to a campaign of destruction and mayhem, thanks again to an unholy alliance between the hideous house of Wahabist Saudi head choppers and their somewhat more sophisticated ethno-supremacist friends living in that least holy of all lands, now called israel. Nice to see these twiddle-dee-twiddle-dams of the Middle east, inheritors two two great religions. Nice to see Israel and new best bud Saudi Arabia being aided and abetted by the empire’s hegemonists, many of whom are members of the third great monotheistic religion, making this the grandest of all monotheist alliances.

        Personally, I think most jews who do attend Seders of all kinds would do well to stop counting the plagues visited upon their supposed enemies (supposed because there never was any “exodus” from Egypt by all historical accounts) much as they like to count the murderous rampages of the henchmen of Mordechai against men, women and children of the Haman clan of Persia as ‘righteous riot”. May be they should instead start counting their blessings for being given a pass on account of past persecution. Now, if we could only have descendants of the illustrious Huns join in to receive their own forebearances and blessings!.

        I don’t know how your haggadah is written but the one followed in israel is a treatise of vengeance celebration thanks to a egomaniac and cruel god that should really have been banished from followers of civilized discourse the world over sometime ago. So I ask, how can reading from the traditional Hagadah be seen as a beautiful spiritual affair when those reveling in the recitations and celebrations are committing and commemorating some of the ugliest acts of persecution seen these past 70 years.

        So yes, given who reads it, and the spirit in which it is read, for me the Haggadah has become a book of death, one that, shorn of the propaganda value in which it is encased, is, at its heart, a simple minded celebration of vengeance by a people for whom the concept of mercy has no meaning outside their own narrow-minded, ethnically/religiously defined tribes of zealots. The people of israel, who have “arrived” in jerusalem – that city on the hill – are indeed the natural spiritual descendants of the zealotry of the maccabis, the cruelty of Mordechai’s henchmen and the terror spreading legionaires of Begin, Sharon and now netanyahu. So what message do any of them or their supporters have for the rest of the world that’s worth listening to?

        May be sometimes it’s not so hard to understand how Christianity ended up triumphing in the old world. Passover, like Yom Kippur, is among those special days of the jewish tradition when I actually can actually see why Christianity (and later islam) spread as far as they did and Judaism didn’t. Not that the modern day adherents of either religion are short in the misery inflicting department (see above re the great collusion of the world’s three religions), but long ago, during difficult times, if one looks carefully, and perhaps objectively, it’s not so hard to see why things came about the way they did.

        Thanks for the inspiration jon s. Please send more soap boxes my way!

      • Keith
        April 29, 2015, 9:04 pm

        DANAA- Brilliant comment, spot on! Needless to say, the only effect it will have on Jon S, Hophmi, Catalan and the other loyal Zionist cadre is as a threat to their Zionist ambitions. Jewish Zionist solidarity is the name of their game, Zionism having replaced Judaism as the unifier of world Jewry even as Judaism gives way to veneration of the Holocaust. Their continual reliance on charges of anti-Semitism and tropes indicates a rigid ideological conformity and totalitarian mindset. They are defenders of the Zionist faith with a rigid, unshakable bias. Curiously, they see themselves as victims in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Or at least they pretend to.

      • Mooser
        April 30, 2015, 11:42 pm

        “Zionism having replaced Judaism as the unifier of world Jewry”

        Oh, I don’t know. Rather than a “unifier” it appears to be more like a last-ditch and violent attempt for one cohort, one group within Judaism to gain control over as many Jews as possible.

        Naturally, Zionists make every attempt to push that tribal unity line, but I think it’s crap. The same divisions, pretty much that run through the world run through the Jews. (Of course, the Palestinians are the ultimate victims of Zionism, but before Zionism could do a single thing to a Palestinian, they had to control Jews and victimize them) That’s the way I’ve always seen it. I could be wrong.

    • just
      April 28, 2015, 6:44 pm

      Thank you for sharing that powerful and reflective post, Danaa.

      • Danaa
        April 28, 2015, 7:19 pm

        Thanks just, but alas, jon s tricked me into one of my rants now, assuming they’ll actually let it stand ( and I am so trying to stay away from those!). Unfortunately, for me, sad leads to mad, at a drop of a hat. Must learn to meditate.

      • just
        April 28, 2015, 7:32 pm

        Danaa~ thank you for yet another magnificent post! Yes, meditation is wonderful, but so are your contributions and sharing here.

        I certainly benefited!

      • Citizen
        April 29, 2015, 7:43 am

        Yes, thanks Danaa. Acute insight.

      • jon s
        April 29, 2015, 3:07 pm

        Danaa,
        As I said, it saddens me that a person raised as a Jew rejects her heritage, and is left with nothing but hatred.
        You seem to have internalized anti-Jewish stereotypes (“full court Jewish establishment”) and tropes (“murderous rampages of the henchmen of Mordecai against men women and children…”- totally false, read the Megillah.)
        I’m non-Orthodox, and left-wing, but I still find much I can relate to in the Passover story. The central theme is to remember : that we were slaves in Egypt , and were liberated, and the memory should be very up-close and personal – we should all consider ourselves as having been liberated from bondage. In the Bible itself we are told repeatedly to remember the oppression in Egypt for a purpose- so as not to do the same to others. In Exodus (22:20): And you shall not mistreat a stranger, nor shall you oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.And again: (Exodus 23:9): And you shall not oppress a stranger, for you know the feelings of the stranger, since you were strangers in the land of Egypt. Also in Deuteronomy (10:19): You shall love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
        We recite the plagues in unison, taking a drop of wine out of our cup with each one. Don Yitzhak Abarbenel (1437-1508) interpreted this custom as reflecting the idea that the joy in our salvation –as expressed in the full cup of wine- is reduced because of the sufferings of the Egyptian people, who are our fellow human beings. This point reminds me of the Midrash according to which God rebuked the angels for wanting to sing when the Egyptians were drowning in the Red Sea : “The works of my hands are drowning in the sea, and you wish to sing praises?!? “(Talmud Tractate Megillah 10b).
        In other words, Danaa, there’s a lot to discuss and a lot to learn, while reaffirming and continuing our people’s traditions and heritage. You can go to the gym any other day.

      • eljay
        April 29, 2015, 3:20 pm

        || jon s: … In the Bible itself we are told repeatedly to remember the oppression in Egypt for a purpose- so as not to do the same to others. In Exodus (22:20): And you shall not mistreat a stranger, nor shall you oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.And again: (Exodus 23:9): And you shall not oppress a stranger, for you know the feelings of the stranger, since you were strangers in the land of Egypt. Also in Deuteronomy (10:19): You shall love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. ||

        And, yet, Zio-supremacists either:
        – don’t remember these things; or, worse,
        – do remember these things…but don’t care.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 3:35 pm

        “As I said, it saddens me that a person raised as a Jew rejects her heritage, and is left with nothing but hatred.

        Wow, and I worry about my stuff passing moderation! Well, well, well.

        “Jon s”, you are not talking to a child. Danaa is a grown adult, who, I believe, has lived in Israel. Stop making an ass of yourself, and buddy, by any definition of (let alone a “gentleman”) a “man” that I know, you owe her one hell of an apology.
        Or is your “mouth going to speak evil”?

      • Kris
        April 29, 2015, 7:07 pm

        @jon s: “In the Bible itself we are told repeatedly to remember the oppression in Egypt for a purpose- so as not to do the same to others.”

        This has to be the strangest post I have ever read. You are touting Judaism’s calls for mercy and non-oppression AT THE VERY SAME TIME that you are actively participating in and supporting the oppression of the Palestinians.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 11:20 pm

        “You are touting Judaism’s calls for mercy and non-oppression AT THE VERY SAME TIME that you are actively participating in and supporting the oppression of the Palestinians.”

        Oh, I think it gets worse, “Kris”.
        When “Jon s” is touting his particular brand of Jewish faith-washing, he is instantly ready to call other Israelis names :

        “In Israel there’s a rising tide of racism , xenophobia and anti-democratic tendencies, especially (though not exclusively) among the Orthodox Jews.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jon-s#sthash.skS69YQV.dpuf

        Between the two hypocrisies on offer, I’ll say that “Jon s” is a pedagogue extraordinaire; he teaches us everything we need to know about Zionism.

        BTW, if “Jon s” tries any pill-pulling, from the same thread:

        “First of all, for the record, I stand by what I wrote about Hamas bearing primary responsibility for the civilian casualties.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jon-s#sthash.skS69YQV.dpuf

        That’s our good old “Jon s”, a real reacher-outer, that one.

      • Danaa
        April 30, 2015, 1:00 am

        jon s, I was not here taking issue with what’s in the bible, the talmud etc (though I might at other times). I was pointing out the unctuous hypocricy of those who recite words of deliverance from oppression while supporting the obnoxious behavior of a people that practice brutal oppression every day. Since you profess to be a liberal zionist, I do indeed question your sincerity in extoling supposed universal values while the country you support violates those very values every second of every day . So, for you to imply the reading of the hagadda comports with certain universal values (notwithstanding the fact that the haggadah itself speaks of those values strictly in a jewish context of “they wanted to oppress us, we won, let’s eat – a lot” ) is indeed hypocritical, and your defense of it sanctimonious.

        Now, I do understand you want to think of yourself as a moral person while partaking in in certain Jewish traditions. I just couldn’t help pointing out the glaring contradictions thereof. I would further say that you should not worry so much about others being “self-hating jews” but should instead do something about your own cognitive dissonance. I heard somewhere it can lead to spiritual ulcers. Very difficult to treat, that.

        And Mooser, thanks for defending my lost honor. If jon s actually apologizes, I promise to eat one of [my more elaborate] hats. If not, I am always up for a duel (just never at sunrise) – mostly to help call the shots from the sidelines.

      • Mooser
        April 30, 2015, 3:32 pm

        “And Mooser, thanks for defending my lost honor.”

        Oh yep, that’s me, the parfait gentil knight, always fighting for a woman’s honor, which is more than, cough, cough… anyway, I was saying, it’s not hard to see the difference when “Jon s” adds another chauvinism to his unctuousness and staggering hypocrisy.

      • Mooser
        May 1, 2015, 8:53 pm
      • Mooser
        May 2, 2015, 9:09 pm

        “especially (though not exclusively) among the Orthodox Jews.”

        I’m sorry, but every time I see that sentence I get famischt. I guess the Orthodox make easy targets.

  16. DaBakr
    April 27, 2015, 7:31 pm

    “how do you explain it?” [the Jews supposedly being “kicked” out of “every” country they lived in.]

    If this isn’t a mirror of the classic anti-Semitic quip: “there must be something wrong with the Jews because there sure is a lot of anti-semitism here. ] I am not one to accuse anti-Zionist Jews of being self-hating very often but PW is certainly pushing the envelope if it hasn’t already burst.

    • Mooser
      April 28, 2015, 12:06 am

      ” I am not one to accuse anti-Zionist Jews of being self-hating very often but PW is certainly pushing the envelope if it hasn’t already burst.”

      Go ahead “dabakr” call as many people as you want, “self-hating”. Make up a list, if it hasn’t already been done. What are you gonna do, pal, send the sicarii after them?

      After all, “dabakr” the more self-haters and mosers you get rid of, the more Israel for you!

      • DaBakr
        April 28, 2015, 8:24 pm

        @ms

        its doubtful that PW doesn’t have his own ideas about his status as a Jew w/o the harpies on MW rushing in to defend him. I think he’s a big boy and can handle the accusations.

        And whats your issue with “sicarii” ? The Romans would have gladly crucified them after many sessions of torture with Roman implements. So they wanted the Romans leave their nation and go back to Rome. Heroic, by any estimate in Jewish history.

        Unless you think the Jews should have just accepted the superior force and culture of Roman rule and assimilated for their own safety like many others did.

      • RoHa
        April 29, 2015, 5:03 am

        “Unless you think the Jews should have just accepted the superior force and culture of Roman rule and assimilated for their own safety like many others did. ”

        Lessee. Pay taxes to the Romans, and get sewers, aqueducts, well-organised cities, and public order, or stick with the rebels and get lectures about Jehovah while listening to the legions advancing.

        Can I have a moment or two to think about that?

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 12:00 pm

        “its doubtful that PW doesn’t have his own ideas about his status as a Jew w/o the harpies on MW rushing in to defend him. I think he’s a big boy and can handle the accusations”

        Gee, “dabakr” considering that Phil Weiss provides the space and forum for you to make them , you would think so, wouldn’t you?
        And here you and the ilk are, making them. What do you know.

        At one time,”dabakr” I would have given anything to fish the pond you guys come from. I can’t fish anymore, but still dream about a stream where they rise to the bait like you do.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 1:18 pm

        “And whats your issue with “sicarii” ?

        N-n-nothing, n-n-no issues! Don’t say that! Why, I loooove, sicariis, wouldn’t say a word against them! May G-d bless them and keep them…
        They were the nicest guys in the schul everybody knows that! After all, they knew what made Shammai run, and didn’t want to see Judaism got to hillel in a handbasket!

      • DaBakr
        May 2, 2015, 5:33 pm

        @msr

        …..Gee, “dabakr” considering that Phil Weiss provides the space and forum for you to make them , you would think so, wouldn’t you?
        And here you and the ilk are, making them. What do you kno..”

        Seems like it is you who competes with PW for attention here commenting with statements that more then likely have nothing to do with the topic at hand. But you have an excuse, at least…

        [p.s. you like using that grown-up word ‘ilk’ often. You don’t seem to actually know from what it originates and how to use..better you find a nice yiddish word instead.]

      • Mooser
        May 2, 2015, 8:42 pm

        “Debacle” I know exactly what ilk are. You find them in herds.

        Seems like it is you who competes with PW for attention here commenting”

        Well, “dabakr” seeing as how I don’t know him as well as you do, and given your oft-expressed concern for him, please let me know if he mentions to you that he’s feeling crowded. Thanks.

    • Citizen
      April 29, 2015, 7:57 am

      How do you explain it, Noble Prize winner Solzhenitsyn’s two volume work 200 Years Together, published in 2002 in Russian, and quickly translated into German, has yet to be published in English?

      If you read Russian, you can get it from Amazon; all his other books are available there in English.

      • Neil Schipper
        April 29, 2015, 3:14 pm

        The “200 years unpublished because jewish power” claim is one of the sillier claims flying around the internet. I’ve seen it often enough from transparent jew haters; I didn’t expect to see it on MW.

        An interesting feature of this claim is that, although you can demonstrate its silliness with some research, it’s easy to do so by mere ‘thought experiment’, assuming you’ve got your eyes at least half-way open.

      • Citizen
        May 1, 2015, 11:42 am

        @ Neil Schipper

        I merely asked why the subject book, by a famous, Noble Prize winning writer of world class stature, covering 200 years of Russo-Jewish relations, has not yet been published in English translation, considering all the author’s other works have been published in English quickly and highly praised. And further, considering it’s been published in the German language while Germany has strict laws against anti-semitism. Why is that a silly question? Why do you refer to it as “one of the sillier claims flying around the internet”?

        What research would you recommend to verify your adjective “silly”? Please tell us, describe what your “thought experiment” is. Thanks!

        The relevancy to this thread is posited in the diary entry concerning history narratives.

    • jon s
      April 30, 2015, 3:08 pm

      Danaa, After re-reading my previous comment, I realize that it sounds somewhat paternalistic and condescending. Maybe “teacher-mode” kicked in where it was out of place. So if you were offended by the tone – I sincerely apologize.

      • Mooser
        April 30, 2015, 3:59 pm

        “After re-reading my previous comment, I realize that it sounds somewhat paternalistic and condescending.”

        No need to apologize. I’m sure everybody realizes that it only sounds that way, and what you write does not convey your real meaning.

        So we can just declare it, well, in-operative, like Israel’s proclamations of its borders!

    • jon s
      May 1, 2015, 4:38 pm

      Kris,
      Could you provide an example -one example- of my expressing support for the oppression of the Palestinians?

      • Kris
        May 1, 2015, 5:35 pm

        @ jon s: “Kris, Could you provide an example -one example- of my expressing support for the oppression of the Palestinians?”

        Here you go, jon-s: jon s April 10, 2015, 11:56 am:

        “Donald,
        First of all, for the record, I stand by what I wrote about Hamas bearing primary responsibility for the civilian casualties.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/faithwashing-leadership-institute#comment-760311

        So do you think it’s about semantics, and bombing Palestinian families trapped by Israel in Gaza isn’t “oppression” as far as you’re concerned? Maybe it’s just “collective punishment ” (which is also a war crime)?

        Hamas didn’t kill all those Palestinians, Israeli Jews did, with U.S. support bought by American Jews. Those Israeli Jews had a choice. They chose to murder these defenseless people; they could have amazed the world by choosing mercy and justice. You would have made a lot of friends, too.

        But justice would mean stopping the ethnic cleansing and slow-motion holocaust you are carrying out against the Palestinians; instead, you Israeli Jews killed all those Palestinians. You steal their land, and then cry and complain when they try to resist, despite your vastly superior war power. Israel is your golden calf.

        ________

        Hoshea 8:7
        “For they sow the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind; he has no standing grain; the blade shall yield no meal; if so be it yield, strangers shall swallow it up.”

        “One of the sound principles of sowing and reaping is that no matter what is sown, vastly more of what was sown will be reaped. In the verse above we see that wind was sown, but a whirlwind was reaped; there was an increase. So whatever a man sows, this shall he also reap; but not in the same measure, but rather in a measure that is greatly increased.”

      • Mooser
        May 1, 2015, 7:53 pm

        “Could you provide an example -one example- of my expressing support for the oppression of the Palestinians?”

        This is unbelievable! “Jon s” because you suffer from Ziocaine Syndrome Amnesia, don’t assume everybody else does, too.

  17. yonah fredman
    April 27, 2015, 9:01 pm

    So, let’s take a final tally.

    Jews run the media and are guilty of neglecting Hiroshima and overemphasizing Auschwitz. Insider trading is the only thing that is noticeable about the success of Jews on Wall Street. Some Jewish businessmen stole from the record industry by pretending the records they could not sell were actually damaged and years later other Jews laugh about it. Herzl curried to the anti Semites in his appeal for Zionism. Some Jews spend heaps of money in order to eat heaps of food on Passover. The Hagadda has a worse sense of morality than a 6 year old. We must consider US 2015 before reaching any conclusions regarding the history of the Jews up until 1945.

    No comment.

    • Mooser
      April 28, 2015, 12:00 am

      “No comment.”

      Gee, you’ve made my Pesach, Yonah. Now I know how the ancient Israelites felt, when (In the immortal words of the song “Mary Don’t You Weep”) “Pharoah’s Army, got drowned, in the Red Sea”! Like I’ve been saved, delivered, from a bad fate.

    • Danaa
      April 28, 2015, 4:49 pm

      Yonah, you sure are making a career out of the Not Getting IT syndrome. Does it pay well?

    • Citizen
      April 29, 2015, 8:09 am

      @ yonah fredman

      Why not be concise? “They tried to kill us, we won, let’s eat!” Or would that be too universal?

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 12:04 pm

        You know, Citizen, I’ve seen a lot of pill-pushers in my time, but only here at Mondo did I discover a pill-puller.

  18. Qualtrough
    April 27, 2015, 10:54 pm

    “I see no fact bearing out the argument that Jews are the reason that there are many Holocaust movies, and I detest the insinuation. ” Hopfmi

    If you think the fact that the literally hundreds of US movies /TV shows/documentaries about the holocaust and very close to zero about the Nakba or the plight of Palestinians has nothing at all to do with the world view of the people with power in that industry you are just being dishonest. The power issue is not even denied by many Jews in the industry.
    Like this:

    http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/19/opinion/oe-stein19

    Lemme guess–another of those self-hating Jews, right?

  19. Qualtrough
    April 27, 2015, 11:02 pm

    “Israel National News service is in the habit of publishing ‘one off’ opinion pieces?”

    Who the hell knows what they publish? If Hamas publishes a piece in their newspaper calling for Jews to be roasted on a spit, does that mean that all Palestinians believe Jews should be roasted on a spit? – Hopfmi

    Persuading people to believe that all Palestinians believe that Jews should be roasted on a spit pretty much sums up MEMRI’s business model.

  20. Qualtrough
    April 27, 2015, 11:08 pm

    Hillel’s maxim is an ideal for interpersonal relations. It’s not necessarily a geopolitical strategy…” – Hopfmi

    He was a very smart guy, so I think it is safe to assume that if that was his intent he would have made that clear. Come to think of it, I don’t recall Jesus advising his followers to ‘turn the other cheek, except in real world situations where that wouldn’t be practical” either.

  21. catalan
    April 28, 2015, 12:05 am

    This article is such a “glass is half empty” type of thing. Life is complicated. Everyone cheats at one point or another. There is a stunning amount of fraud out there, in every field.
    That said, there is also a lot of good. It’s sad that you see everything so one-sidedly. It’s just not objective.

    • Citizen
      April 29, 2015, 8:21 am

      @ catalan

      So, everyone cheats at one point or another? How did you deduce that conclusion? Does everyone have a pattern of cheating? Some folks crap once a day; others have diarrhea.Some folks think rules are made to be broken, others always stick to the rules.

    • catalan
      April 29, 2015, 11:15 am

      “So, everyone cheats at one point or another? How did you deduce that conclusion?” – Citizen
      Citizen,
      First let me clarify, everyone but saints cheat, and yes, there are saints in this world, but so few.
      How do I know – Part of what I do in my work is dealing and learning about fraud. The statistics speak for themselves. For instance, 90 percent of college students cheat at one point or another. It’s kind of sad when you learn the types of things that happen, but a lot of accounting is establishing internal controls to prevent fraud. Checks and balances types of things.
      I also worked in retail before, both at the store level and at at the corporate level, and let’s just say I have seen things, without getting into specifics.
      I am glad if you feel you are above temptation yourself or you have dealt with many honest people who never cheat.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 12:08 pm

        In that case, why is this article an “invitation to prejudice”, something “brave”? If we Jews are pretty much like everybody else (given our circumstances) why not talk about it?
        Who, “catalan”, is it you think doesn’t know it already, and is waiting for PW to tell them?

        Now, if RoHa says “whom” is what I want there, I’ll change it.

      • Citizen
        May 1, 2015, 12:02 pm

        @ catalan
        So, in your personal experience, which you’ve used as the base of your conclusion that everyone cheats at one point of their life or another, what percent have a pattern of cheating? Make it a business, their everyday approach to any challenge? You know, like the employer of those boys conscripted to cheat the record company every weekend? What values does that teach to young boys? Nobody’s a saint. But character is determined by the patterns in one’s life, not an occasional slipped stitch.

  22. mcohen.
    April 28, 2015, 4:52 am

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4651083,00.html

    hi phil

    you should read this…..its got s long pointy finger and it is directed at the well intentioned…..

    • a blah chick
      April 28, 2015, 9:01 am

      Wow, an entire article about why some Jews are critical of Israel and not ONE mention of the Gaza war, teenagers gunned down in the streets, lynch mobs, house demolitions, African refugees getting deported to their deaths, Israeli lawmakers calling for Arab heads and other body parts, the PM using racism to get Jews to the polls…

      You’re right, dude, what reasons would compel thoughtful, humane Jews to dump Israel?

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 8:24 pm

        “You’re right, dude, what reasons would compel thoughtful, humane Jews to dump Israel?”

        Two very compelling ones! 1) People don’t admire Zionism any more, now it’s a negative, socially, and2) None of their friends are Zionists now. 3) There’s no danger of a ‘contest of wills’

        And that will do it for a great majority, same as it would for any other American fad or fashionable delusion.

  23. David Doppler
    April 28, 2015, 11:07 am

    This whole post seems an invitation to prejudice, but this deserves special mention:

    “I said that [the Israel lobby] reflected a contract the American establishment had made with Jews to drive the economy in the 1970s. We were really good at the four horses of the global economy (finance, software, education, and media) . . . ; and in exchange for that leading role, the government would support Israel.”

    You know that “the Jews” didn’t get together and negotiate any such thing, and that “the American establishment” didn’t get together and negotiate the other side, don’t you? It’s ludicrous. The American establishment? where at its tony clubs? “Hey, join us, A, B, and C, and some of the other fellows tonight. We’re going to get the Jews to drive the four horses of the economy for us. Boy oh boy, will we make money, you betcha. All we have to do is support their Zionist project in Israel. No brainer. Phew. Now we don’t have to worry about the economy any more.”

    America is constitutionally a meritocracy, with limited, divided and competitive government, dispersed wells of power, all designed to prevent power elites from performing too much of the mischief they are historically so famous for. Your explanation of the Israel Lobby dismisses all of that, in favor of a belief that there is always an elite, America is no different from every ancient or Medieval kingdom, where “the Jews” struck their fateful bargains with “the other.”

    The reason you haven’t felt prejudice is that, for the most part, the American people struck a bargain with themselves 225 years ago to create a different kind of government and society that values its constitutional principles above all others, and which has led it through its twists and turns, exploring its many imperfections that haven’t prevented it ever striving to be more perfect.

    I would say the Israel Lobby reflects a temporary abuse of power relationships fueled by political contributions and organized (but partially concealed in their collaboration) political, media and social efforts designed to punish those who fail to support the power relationships, and to reward those who do. It’s worked very effectively since the 70s, but is in process of falling apart due to the bankruptcy of the strategic leadership provided by Netanyahu and the Neocons, who keep upping the ante while holding a hand with nothing in it but a failed ideology, as a new generation looks on in disgust.

    • lysias
      April 28, 2015, 11:25 am

      Separation of powers and divided government have turned out in the end not to prevent the rule of an oligarchy, as the political class and its plutocratic funders have recognized that they share common interests different from those of the rest of the population. Robert Michels developed his Iron law of oligarchy (that rule by an elite is inevitable in a representative democracy) for modern representative democracies, to which the law certainly does seem to apply.

      The one kind of government that seems to have successfully limited the political power of elites was direct democracy of the ancient Greek kind, which indeed made use of representatives (the Boule Council upper house of the legislature, the whole system of courts, most officials), but chose them randomly, by lot, out of the whole citizen body. I keep urging that we should adopt this system, at least for the lower houses of our legislatures, but I’m having a hard time persuading people.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 3:48 pm

        “The one kind of government that seems to have successfully limited the political power of elites was direct democracy of the ancient Greek kind,”

        Ah, so a slave-labor economy and slavery government limits the power of elites? Okay, sure.

      • lysias
        April 28, 2015, 4:13 pm

        For the citizens to have the leisure to devote enough time to civic duties, the ancient Greeks did indeed need slavery. But (and Aristotle suggests this possibility in one of his writings) we now have the machines to do the work that slaves once did. So we can have a system now that extends the same rights ancient Greek cities gave only free citizens to all citizens living within our territory. A system that has no slavery and that gives equal rights to women (also denied most civic rights in ancient Greek cities).

        Even with those limitations, the ancient Greek cities that were ruled democratically did far more to avoid giving pretty much all power to the rich, as was true of other ancient states, and as is true today of virtually all states, even those that pretend to be democratic. I do not think the fact that ancient Greek cities were slave societies and sexist is any reason not to imitate what they did to extend political power to a large group, and deny a monopoly of power to the rich.

        For a long discussion of all this, see G.E.M. de Ste. Croix’s The Class Struggle in the Ancient Greek World.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 5:33 pm

        “For the citizens to have the leisure to devote enough time to civic duties, the ancient Greeks did indeed need slavery.”

        Oh, sorry, hadn’t thought of that. And if “to have the leisure to devote enough time to young civic duties” trumps slavery every time. Sorry.

      • Citizen
        April 29, 2015, 8:31 am

        The USA today is a de facto financial oligarchy, not a democracy.

      • lysias
        April 29, 2015, 10:29 am

        I was trying to explain why Greece had slavery, not to justify it. My point was that, since we no longer need to have slavery to have a political system like the ancient Greek democratic cities, that fact that they had slavery is no reason not to have such a political system now. And I do not think that you have answered my point.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 12:11 pm

        “And I do not think that you have answered my point.”

        The “now we have machines to take the place of slaves” point? No, I just laughed at it and went on. Didn’t know I was dealing with a libertarian sophomore. My own fault, and I apologize.

      • lysias
        April 29, 2015, 1:35 pm

        The USA today is a de facto financial oligarchy, not a democracy.

        Indeed. And that is why I urge imitating the ancient Athenian system, at least to the extent of appointing members of the lower houses of our legislatures by lot (which would give average citizens at least a veto power over government action).

      • lysias
        April 30, 2015, 10:10 am

        You insist on evading the issue. So let me ask you more directly: do you really think that the fact that the ancient Athenian economy depended on slavery is a sufficient reason not to adopt their political system of choosing representatives by lot from the whole citizen body, even in societies where there is no slavery? If you really do believe that, please explain your reasoning. And please explain why a system that gives disproportionate power to the rich is better than a system that would give at least some real power to average citizens.

    • Mooser
      April 29, 2015, 1:04 pm

      “This whole post seems an invitation to prejudice”

      Admitting we might be pretty much the same as anybody else in a series of diary vignettes is an “invitation to prejudice”? Silly me, I thought it was invitation to equality.

  24. Froggy
    April 28, 2015, 11:25 am

    When I bought the house in one of the English Home Counties Halina came with it. Halina had been an obstretical nurse in Poland. In the UK she is our maid.

    I always serve her tea and a light lunch, which gives us time to chat. It’s not too difficult for me to talk to Halina. Though she speaks little English and no French, I speak some Polish, and we both speak Russian. In time we became friends.

    One day we got to talking about family. It wasn’t a nice conversation, as she described how her family in Poland was pretty much wiped out by the Germans, as was mine in France. I asked her whether she hated the Germans. She switched over to her heavily-accented English, and what she had to say was so memorable that I never forgot it: ‘Hate…? What good this hate? What does hate make but more hate? Hate makes more hate and then hate goes on forever. Then there is more suffering because of this hate and then more hate. No good this hate. I don’t hate.’

    I don’t know whether Halina forgives the Germans who killed her family. It seemed to intimate a question for me to ask.

    I don’t forgive the Germans who killed my family and so many others in my village. However, those men are certainly dead by now. I have no reason to hate their children or grandchildren who, after all, didn’t kill anyone.

    The time for hatred is past. I don’t know about forgiveness. I’m not sure that I know what forgiveness even means. However, at the least, old hatreds must be put aside if any of us are to continue living in a sane and rational manner.

    • eljay
      April 28, 2015, 11:33 am

      || Froggy @ April 28, 2015, 11:25 am ||

      Good post. Thank you.

      • Philip Weiss
        April 28, 2015, 12:50 pm

        Yes thanks Froggy, very helpful

    • just
      April 28, 2015, 11:39 am

      Thank you for your very powerful post, Froggy.

      (Say hello to Halina!)

    • oldgeezer
      April 28, 2015, 11:41 am

      Well said Froggy. I think I would find it hard to give a blanket forgiveness but it is time to bury the hate. There are uncles I will never know but carrying the negativity will not do me any good. Nor will it bring them home.

      • Froggy
        April 28, 2015, 3:42 pm

        Blanket forgiveness is beyond my capacity, oldgeezer. So is blanket hatred.

        I would say that Halina and I are pragmatists, in addition to being very stubborn. We are both alive, and neither of us is about to give dead Nazis that much power over our psyche.

        The way I see it, my relatives, along with many thousands of others, died wanting those who survived to live free and make happy lives for themselves. I refuse to deny the dead their ultimate victory.

      • just
        April 28, 2015, 4:02 pm

        +1, Froggy!

        Another great post.

  25. Donald
    April 28, 2015, 12:47 pm

    Phil, let me give you some advice as one self-hater to another. In my case it’s self-hatred of part of my white southern heritage. I think there’s a tremendous amount of overlap between the hypocrisy you find in some white southerners and that you’ll find in many Jewish supporters of Israel. At bottom it’s just racism and it is no accident that many of Israel’s strongest American non-Jewish supporters are white evangelical southerners. They just retargeted some of their old-fashioned bigotry against a new group–Palestinians.

    Anyway, here’s the advice. Focus on the racism. I think your corrupt businessman story about breaking records is dumb–corrupt business types can be found in all ethnic groups. And rich people of any sort are often self-indulgent. You may not like aspects of American Jewish culture just as I don’t like some aspects of stereotypical white southern culture (grits, country music. etc…), but this is irrelevant. Don’t mix irrelevancies in with serious criticism.

    And look what happened in this thread. Are we discussing the racism of American Jewish supporters of Israel? Nope. It’s all about anti-semitism. Again.

    Incidentally, the “self-hater” phrase I’m using ironically. I think you’re angry and disgusted, as you should be by the blind support for Israel, but I also think you’re sort of shooting blindly here, when you should be aiming your shots a lot more carefully.

    • eljay
      April 28, 2015, 12:52 pm

      || Donald: Anyway, here’s the advice. Focus on the racism. … Don’t mix irrelevancies in with serious criticism. ||

      Good advice.

      || And look what happened in this thread. Are we discussing the racism of American Jewish supporters of Israel? Nope. It’s all about anti-semitism. Again. ||

      That’s inevitable when hophmi’s involved. He notices anti-Semitism in just about anything.

      • marc b.
        April 28, 2015, 2:22 pm

        that’s really the problem, the last part. the best of Weiss’s posts almost always involve the personal, the anecdotal, both of which may strictly be considered ‘irrelevant’ when discussing big topics. I can’t be bothered doing the maths, but my eye ball test tells me that one person is responsible for at least 20% of the volume of commentary in this thread, commentary chock full of non sequiturs, contradictions, diversionary paths, and so on. I don’t agree with everything Weiss writes, but until proven otherwise i presume that if it upsets Madame Hysteria, he’s got a point.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 3:52 pm

        “but my eye ball test tells me that one person is responsible for at least 20% of the volume of commentary in this thread, commentary chock full of non sequiturs, contradictions, diversionary paths, and so on “

        I’m sorry. I know I went overboard. Some of the openings were just irresistible, and I am weak like that.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 4:12 pm

        “He notices anti-Semitism in just about anything.”

        That’s the second thing he notices. The first thing is all the self-hate and internalized persecution of the author.

        I wish I could get a handle on this whole self-hate thing. Let me see if I can grasp it: So, a Jewish person who, say dresses according to centuries-old sumptuary laws imposed on Jews, and makes an outlandish and forbidding spectacle of his hair, and won’t enter into the life around him, and repeats over and over a pattern of life imposed by persecution, and never seems to realize that pretensions of superiority usually mask feelings of inferiority is not suffering from self-hatred?

        And a Jew who deals with what he finds in his life, including mistakes or even bad deeds perpetrated in our name, and has the confidence in himself, and his Judaism or Jewishness, even his ability to deal with the ‘Gentile society’ around him, to be honest about things, okay, he’s the guy who suffers from self-hatred?

        Sure, makes perfect sense. I mean, the severity of a psychological symptom or syndrome is usually judged by how much the illness disables a person, in life and relating to others in a healthy way. So I guess it’s pretty obvious who the (and I quote) “crazy” person is.

    • Philip Weiss
      April 28, 2015, 3:59 pm

      I think you are more strictly political than I am Donald. I am interested in cultural matters, too. I know that it sometimes muddies the water

      • jon s
        April 28, 2015, 4:59 pm

        Marc b.,
        I actually counted today, using the “100 recent comments” function and found Mooser to be the author of 38% of the comments on this blog.

      • marc b.
        April 28, 2015, 5:05 pm

        he is a prolific author. and master of the pan flute. more popular than the beatles.

      • amigo
        April 28, 2015, 5:38 pm

        “Marc b.,
        I actually counted today, using the “100 recent comments” function and found Mooser to be the author of 38% of the comments on this blog. ” jon s

        Strange that.I just counted and could only see 14 comments.Sounds like 14 % to me.

        Mooser, shame on you.Are you going to take credit for work you did not contribute.,

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 5:43 pm

        “master of the pan flute”

        And, although I say it who shouldn’t, pretty good at the pan fry. And speaking of the Beatles, if Ringo had a bad tonsure and a set of palmate antlers, he’d look just like me.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2015, 5:48 pm

        “Mooser, shame on you.Are you going to take credit for work you did not contribute.”

        I’ve already explained this. Mondo engages out-of-work TV gag-writers from the worst of the 80’s to submit comments under my name. I can’t stop them.
        Besides, those are the thoughtful, on-topic ones!

      • JWalters
        April 28, 2015, 7:43 pm

        Phil, I agree with Donald that racism is a central focus. But it’s also true that slavery was a corrupt business practice, and profits motivated the continued fanning of racism. The eventual blowback was the Civil War.

        I think this is a courageous article for raising the various threads of thinking going on, including the business factor. It seems to me the idea that Jews are somehow inherently superior at business is a secular version of Jews being God’s chosen people.

      • Sycamores
        April 28, 2015, 7:52 pm

        if you didn’t know already

        MJ Rosenberg is back on twitter

      • Citizen
        April 29, 2015, 9:22 am

        Yes, Phil, culture muddies the political waters. Yet water mixes with earth to make mud. Thank you for this article.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 12:14 pm

        “Marc b.,
        I actually counted today, using the “100 recent comments” function and found Mooser to be the author of 38% of the comments on this blog.”

        “Jon s” naturally, feel sure he is entitled to at least 78% of historic Mondoweiss, and should be able to occupy even more, I would think. He is just the guy to survey the borders of participation.

    • Mooser
      April 28, 2015, 7:39 pm

      “but I also think you’re sort of shooting blindly here, when you should be aiming your shots a lot more carefully.”

      Did you happen to notice the word “diary” at the top of the piece?

      • Citizen
        April 29, 2015, 9:36 am

        @ Mooser

        Priceless comment. But I’m still laughing at your ink blot scenario–pretty good sharp shooter for a moose, you are.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 12:18 pm

        “pretty good sharp shooter for a moose, you are”

        Citizen, thanks! If you like, I’ll send you some of the really nasty ones!

      • jon s
        April 29, 2015, 1:56 pm

        Amigo, I assume that the “100 recent comments” is continuosly updated, as new comments come in. So the 38 comments by Mooser that I counted was correct for the time that I was doing the count. Later it could change.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 3:40 pm

        “So the 38 comments by Mooser that I counted was correct for the time that I was doing the count. Later it could change.

        Just like Israel’s eternal borders!

        For Gawed’s sakes you Zionist guys are a dry fly’s wet dream!

      • Donald
        April 29, 2015, 9:06 pm

        “Did you happen to notice the word “diary” at the top of the piece?”

        Yes.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 11:36 pm

        “Yes”

        Thanks for responding, Donald.

        The article seemed to me to be pretty much what he said it was, a diary of his experiences, the things that stood out to him, over the holiday and the events Phil’s (“my”) seder, an Easter dinner, listening to NPR doing housework, visiting Mom (and best wishes to Mrs. Weiss), then the Finklestein lecture. He recorded passages that seemed revealing to him. I don’t see that he made any condemnation, or even came to any earth-shaking conclusions.
        I enjoyed it. It was revealing, a diary usually is.

        But I’ll say one thing for Phil. He is, from what I see here in comments, Zionism journalism’s own Rorschach! Apparently, he makes one hell of an ink-blot!

      • Donald
        April 30, 2015, 3:14 pm

        I find Phil’s diary interesting, but I objected to drawing any grand conclusions based on anecdotes like the story of the businessman breaking records. Is it really any surprise to find out that some businessmen (of any ethnicity) are dishonest? Same for Wall Street, which was corrupt back in the days when it was just a WASP establishment. (I don’t actually know what the ethnic composition of most corrupt Wall Street types is now–it’s probably a beautiful rainbow coalition of scumbags.) Mitt Romney in what was intended to be his confidential speech to his donors in the 2012 election campaign probably showed what many or most of the superrich think of the peons under them. If I recall correctly, he also dissed the Palestinians.

        So I’m sure that rich Jews are often going to be like rich people of other backgrounds—they’re going to be a-holes. If they happen to have some particular bigoted ideology, they’re also going to use their money to push it, like Adelson.

      • Mooser
        April 30, 2015, 3:40 pm

        ” find Phil’s diary interesting, but I objected to drawing any grand conclusions based on anecdotes like the story of the businessman breaking records.”

        A commenter named “Doug” was kind enough and patient enough to give some explanation for that, up-thread. I think he dealt with the subject very well. (Starting at April 27 1:21pm, 3 posts, way up-thread)

      • Mooser
        May 1, 2015, 2:35 pm

        Anyway, Donald, although I read it in an embarrassed hurry, as one should when reading anther’s diary, it seemed to me that if conclusions can be drawn from it, or indeed conclusions are written into the piece, they have more to do with what we think of ourselves than what others think of us.

        Just a guess.

    • Citizen
      May 1, 2015, 12:46 pm

      @ Donald Really? I know some southern fundies personally and they are not racists at all, but they literally believe the bible tells them if they don’t support the Jews, which they equate with the state of Israel, they won’t get to go to heaven. To all attempts to school them, their answer is that there are always a few rotten apples even with the Jews, so why pick on them? The plight of the Palestinians they don’t even think of at all, and they know little of the history of Zionism, or the history of the I-P conflict. Those I know are well-intentioned, make good neighbors, try daily to be “good Christians,” and are very ignorant politically and as to history,inter alia.

      • Donald
        May 2, 2015, 12:01 am

        I think you’re making a distinction of no importance. Christian Zionists could not care less about the rights of Palestinians–they have their religious view of what the conflict means. It’s part of the End Times drama and people who oppose Israel are automatically the enemies of God. Yes, they are ignorant. If that is all it is then as soon as they are exposed to the Palestinian side they’d have to re- evaluate their entire belief system. They don’t do this. You can say this isn’t racism. Looks like it to me–if someone told them thatIsrael had the right to colonize Alabama and take the homes of good Christian folk like themselves they’d soon learn to question their religious beliefs, because then, in their eyes, real people would be hurt.

  26. PilgrimSoul
    April 28, 2015, 2:12 pm

    We should never forget what the murderers did, and forgiveness should only enter the picture if it is important to the wronged individual as a part of his recovery. What is important is for individuals and societies to deconstruct the aggression that was internalized during the traumatizing events, or during the frequent political use of those events. If the internalized aggression is not deconstructed, the victim will act it out against new victims, or against himself. And it tends to grow stronger with time, especially if the society supports it.

    The victim-aggressor will systematically use past trauma as the excuse for acting out his internalized aggression. This is called ‘traumatic privilege.’ If traumatic privilege is institutionalized in a society, it becomes a form of ‘destructive entitlement.’ Israel is already at this last stage.

    So how does one deconstruct internalized aggression secondary to past trauma?

    There is a new book coming out soon that deals with this very phenomenon. I won’t give away the title, because that is still under discussion. But the title, roughly paraphrased, goes something like this: HOW TO BREAK THE TRAUMA BOND, AND BEAT THE HOLOCAUST: TRAUMATIC MEMORY AND THE STRUGGLE AGAINST SYSTEMIC EVIL.

    Stay tuned.

    • just
      April 28, 2015, 3:59 pm

      Thanks for your post, PilgrimSoul.

      (looking forward to the book)

    • Citizen
      April 29, 2015, 9:43 am

      I think I heard this before, from Freud, later from L Ron Hubbard; in my opinion, Freud used poetic language and Hubbard copied him, using hi-tek lingo initially, morphing to science fiction lingo subsequently; he even came up with his meter thingy. Imagine how Nietzsche or Kafka would paint practical Zionism.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 1:09 pm

        Citizen, this is strictly OT, but if you are at all interested in the dissolution of Hubbard’s Scientology empire, the place to go is Tony Ortega’s “The Underground Bunker” (Should have no problem reaching “tonyortega.org. I think.) Very interesting, especially now.

      • marc b.
        April 29, 2015, 1:13 pm

        and freud liberally ‘borrowed’ from nietzsche. I remember a quote, from I don’t know where, freud declaring his avoidance of Nietzsche since it was depressing to learn that Nietzsche had already written everything freud had to say. couldn’t find it, but these will do for now.

        “[Nietzsche’s] guesses and intuitions often agree in the most astonishing way with the labourious findings of [my work].”

        “I have just acquired Nietzsche in whom I hope to find words for much that remains mute in me.”

        these quotes contradicting his oft repeated denials of ever having read Nietzsche. i’ll leave that for some psychoanalyst or copyright attorney to work out.

  27. michelle
    April 28, 2015, 3:19 pm

    .
    better to turn the other cheek
    than to turn ones back toward G-d
    .
    G-d Bless
    .

    • Mooser
      April 28, 2015, 3:57 pm

      “better to turn the other cheek
      than to turn ones back toward G-d”

      Exactly. Turn your back on G-d and you could get your root struck off! Ouch! Just ask Matthew.

      • michelle
        April 29, 2015, 2:57 am

        .
        Mooser
        i hope your doing well today
        m
        .
        G-d Bless
        .

      • Citizen
        April 29, 2015, 9:46 am

        I always get the two sets of cheeks mixed up.

      • Mooser
        April 29, 2015, 12:29 pm

        I need to get this straightened out. A lot of people may not worry about this stuff, but I like to display at least a modicum of proper etiquette.
        The way I had it, if G-d shows up, (no doubt I’ll be bare-headed at the time, too.) you’re not supposed to look, to be so bold as to turn your face to gaze on G-d. Unless, specifically called out, of course, in which case the best course is to kneel and start trembling, hard.
        You want me to look Him in the eye, stick out my greasy paw, and say “Hey, ma…I mean, G-d, how’s bye-you?”
        Nope, not me, I’m going with modesty and self-effacement, and a quiet slink to the nearest exit.
        Before He asks me to cash a check.

      • michelle
        April 30, 2015, 9:58 am

        .
        way to wear those ‘stars’
        i had hope that this site might be more than a backyard of bullys
        .
        empty words here;
        respect
        understanding
        opportunity
        .
        those that don’t seek peace with every & all cause war
        .
        one path
        two directions
        who will see your face
        who will see your back
        .
        if we don’t live them they’re just empty words
        .
        G-d Bless
        .

  28. Citizen
    April 29, 2015, 11:23 am

    Fareed Zakaria and Haim Saban Clash Over #Israel at Book Launch http://j.mp/1PUIfeo via @thr

  29. Citizen
    April 29, 2015, 1:28 pm

    Israel evacuates surrogate babies from Nepal but leaves their dirt poor Gentile mothers behind amid the disaster http://ti.me/1P3b1Hp via @TIMEWorld

    Mmmm, what would Hillel say, neighbor?

    • marc b.
      April 29, 2015, 3:46 pm

      I saw that story on McClatchy, Citizen. oh, praise be to the most selfless nation!

  30. milx
    April 29, 2015, 5:25 pm

    “And isn’t it possible that that’s the way we tell the story of our history, that lots of people have been expelled from countries, that kind of thing happened a lot, and we just look at the low points, the persecution, and build our narrative around that?”

    If Phil Weiss had any self-awareness the entire Mondoweiss house of cards would collapse right here.

    • Mooser
      April 29, 2015, 11:47 pm

      ” and we just look at the low points, the persecution, and build our narrative around that?”

      Oh yes, until all of a sudden, instead of being beaten by the world, we are Zionismizing, and all of a sudden we are going to beat the whole world. Our entire internal history has been one of division and sectarianism, but now all of a sudden, we is united for action with the Zionists as our masters? Nah, I’ll take my chances elsewhere. I don’t like having to deny the evidence of my own eyes to believe in an ideology, that’s a drag.

    • Citizen
      April 30, 2015, 5:03 am

      Biased historians are not unknown. Did Egypt really boot out its Hebrews? Did Rome boot Hebrews or any other natives out of land Rome controlled, or simply tax them? Is Joan Peters an unbiased historian: “a land without people, for a people without land? “How about the claims Nazis made lampshades from Jewish skin and soap from Jewish bodies? How about those gas chambers? Japanese historians’ accounts of the Rape of Nanking? Did 300+ get raped, or 80,000? (Enough horrors, in any case.) Are Germans “ordinary people” or anti-semitic by nature, as Goldhagen claims. See, e.g., http://qcpages.qc.cuny.edu/writing/history/critical/contradictory.html

      Why isn’t 200 Years Together published in English translation? It covers two centuries of Russo-Jewish relations. Esu’s Tears, covering German-Jewish relations before Hitler took over?

      I suggest you quit making ignorant, useless comments about Phil’s diary entries and read about the war between Israeli historians regarding Zionism and birth of Israel, and it’s more contemporary history: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%20War%20of%20the%20Israeli%20Historians.html

  31. yonah fredman
    April 29, 2015, 10:15 pm

    This is one for the time capsule.

    In the future when studying early 21st century blurring of the lines between anti semitism and anti Zionism, this column by Phil Weiss and the comments by the “crew” will be cited as a great example of this blur. Congrats, Phil and “crew”! Great job!

    • Mooser
      April 30, 2015, 3:47 pm

      Yonah, why is “crew” in quotes?

      Are you quoting something? Why do you put an ordinary word in quotes?

      But, you know, Yonah, maybe we could get one thing clear, if you’ll be good enough. Tell me, since you want them kept well aprt, which one worries you more, anti-semitism, or anti-zionism?

      • yonah fredman
        April 30, 2015, 8:21 pm

        mooser- “I” am “betting” that I will use “quotation marks” in a way that you will not “approve”. I will “try” to use them more judiciously.

        (reminds me of Chris Farley “hygiene” “shower enough”)

        Now on your serious question. Actually I think the thing that worries me the most is that Israel will become less and less democratic. But it does not serve my emotional purposes to get into the crux of the problem and I prefer to deal with secondary issues like Phil playing hopscotch with the line between the Jew hating and Israel bashing.

        But ask yourself, mooser, dear human with an animal name to protect your face, are your anti Zionist credentials better than Donald Johnson’s antiZionist credentials? And if you agree that he is as good an antiZionist as you, why is it that he thinks that Phil should ease up on the cultural antisemitism and you give it “two thumbs up”? Oh, he’s a softie and your a shtarker? I see. Now it’s clear.

      • Mooser
        April 30, 2015, 11:58 pm

        “But it does not serve my emotional purposes to get into the crux of the problem and I prefer to deal with secondary issues like Phil playing hopscotch with the line between the Jew hating and Israel bashing”

        Very true. Very perceptive of you to notice that . But why make it Mondo’s problem? That does neither you, Jews, or Zionism any good, as far as I can see. And it sure could give people ideas about an insanely exaggerated sense of entitlement. But hey, whatever turns you on, Yonah.

        “up on the cultural antisemitism and you give it “two thumbs up”?

        I did not use the expression ‘two thumbs up’ in my comment. Nor did I comment in terms of “cultural antisemitism”

        Yonah, how can anybody take you as anything but a bad joke if you insist lying is a prerogative you are entitled to? You blithely say ‘discourse’ with you must include you the luxury of prevaricating to your heart’s content?
        And you call me a clown?

      • Citizen
        May 1, 2015, 12:33 pm

        @ yonah fredman

        Donald maybe doesn’t realize the value of a more literary approach to political issues? Also, Israel exists as a state today, unlike The Confederate States.

      • Mooser
        May 1, 2015, 8:34 pm

        “But ask yourself, mooser, dear human with an animal name to protect your face”

        I told you how we got the name, Yonah. By the time the family ancestor arrived at the Goldenah Medina everybody was calling him “that moser“. The clerk at Ellis Island added an extra “o”.
        Which is funny, because I’ve been told the original family name had no vowels at all.

      • Donald
        May 2, 2015, 1:06 pm

        Actually citizen, I think the same racist and militaristic tendencies that led the South to start the Civil War are alive and well in America today. To some degree this is why I think so many Americans sympathize with Israel– we really do share some common and deeply unpleasant values.

    • eljay
      May 1, 2015, 7:28 am

      || y.f.: … In the future when studying early 21st century blurring of the lines between anti semitism and anti Zionism, this column by Phil Weiss and the comments by the “crew” will be cited as a great example of this blur. Congrats, Phil and “crew”! Great job! ||

      Don’t forget to congratulate Zio-supremacists (including yourself, although hophmi gets the blue ribbon) for contributing to the blurring by constantly conflating Zionism with Jews and Judaism and then labelling as anti-Semitic many (most?) legitimate examples of anti-Zionism.

      • Mooser
        May 1, 2015, 8:22 pm

        But eljay, don’t you understand? Phil Weiss kept on showing them anti-semitic ink-blots! How could anybody not protest the contents of those smears!

  32. michelle
    April 30, 2015, 2:22 pm

    .
    the just must speak to the deaf on behalf of the voiceless
    those allowed to cross the thresholds must entreat the doorkeepers to allow all through
    those invited to the seder must attend on behalf of those who aren’t invited
    .
    if we don’t turn the other cheek
    if we strike back
    how are we any different
    if we can’t do this with love it is not ours to do
    .
    leave behind your jabs and pokes your selective jokes
    bring your hopes your dreams your prayers to life
    through your choices/actions
    .
    G-d Bless
    .

    • Mooser
      April 30, 2015, 4:04 pm

      Or, as the Sensational Nightingales might put it…

      • michelle
        May 1, 2015, 5:40 pm

        .
        what is the goal here is it
        to set things right through the change of hearts and minds
        to be an example of how to conduct ones self properly whilst faced with or debating an opposing view
        or
        to one up to outwit to outshine to do battle to crush to wound to show the current ‘others’ that you will do what ever it takes to ‘win’
        to slide oppression from one to another rather then end it
        .
        what point is there in debate with a person who hits below the belt

        .
        what hope is there in putting down one person in the effort to lift up another person
        .
        G-d Bless
        .

  33. Mooser
    May 1, 2015, 8:17 pm

    “what point is there in debate with a person who hits below the belt”

    The Sensational Nightingales again.

    They are wonderful.

  34. Mooser
    May 2, 2015, 12:08 pm

    And since I quoted from it earlier Mary, Don’t You Weep”

  35. catalan
    May 2, 2015, 5:46 pm

    Giles makes me feel deeply nostalgic. In Bulgaria, where I grew up, this kind of talk is the norm. Everyone knows that’s Jews run the show, Turks are traitors, and gypsies are subhuman. In America, people bother with such odd concepts as political correctness. You are, like, not supposed to say that blacks are lazy, Hispanics are freeloaders, and Jews dominate finance. Here in America, people bother with bs like mutual respect and careful speaking. Giles should learn Bulgarian, he is practically already one.
    I guess according to him all powerful positions need to be rotated. Like, after a Jew we should have a Black Fed chair, then a Hispanic, then a Sikh. Yup, this would undoubtedly result in great peace and harmony. Only what would be the basis of the rotation. Size of the community maybe? But why stop at ethnic rotation. Let’s have gender rotation and age rotation too.
    I think if Giles took over Holywood he will prohibit comedy. He is a serious man.

  36. catalan
    May 2, 2015, 5:56 pm

    I also like how prejudice against Jews is different depending on where you are. In Bulgaria, the favorite thing was to call me dirty Jew. We were all lacking in hygiene, but Jews especially. Nobody could call us rich or powerful then, although now it caught on. My polish friends would tell me how Jews are not trustworthy people. They never have their back. Here in America, the gripe is that too many of us are in Finance and the movies.
    Jews need to be in good professions, where you can find a job anywhere. China needs accountants, Japan does everyone does. That way, when the next calamity comes, they have a place to go. There are few like Giles here, but so many in Eastern Europe.

    • Mooser
      May 2, 2015, 8:55 pm

      “Catalan” you may never convince me you know f–k-all about Giles, or any other commenter. But you have convinced me, beyond any possibility of retort, that you know all about the guy there with you. You know, “catalan”. Of him, we are getting a great view.

      “That way, when the next calamity comes,

      Yes, when American Jews are stripped of all legal recognition as a people, denied all benefits, and reduced to the level of an ordinary American citizen. When that happens, it’s time to ‘shoot the moon’!

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