The truck attack that killed four Israeli soldiers in Jerusalem was not ‘terrorism’

Israel/Palestine
on 131 Comments

“We in Jerusalem have just experienced an unprovoked terrorist attack, a murderous attack that claimed the lives of four young Israelis and wounded others”, said PM Netanyahu in a statement right after the car ramming attack in East Jerusalem two days ago.

He continued, loosely suggesting a link to ISIS terrorism: “This is part of the same pattern inspired by Islamic State, by ISIS, that we saw first in France, then in Germany and now in Jerusalem. This is part of the same ongoing battle against this global scourge of the new terrorism. We can only fight it together, but we have to fight it, and we will.”

We only have Netanyahu’s word for the ISIS connection, and whilst the case has been put under sweeping gag order, nothing seems to really point in that direction.

Netanyahu also has a worrying track record where such proclamations are concerned:

On the 13th of June 2014 three Jewish settlers were kidnapped. Israel officially announced them as ‘teens’, although more precisely one was 19 and two were 16. At the time, the authorities had recording of an emergency call that one of the kidnapped made, which ended with a spray of bullets and chants by the kidnappers. Thus, the Israeli authorities knew to a great certainty that the kidnapped were dead, but had put the case on a gag order and conveyed to the public they were working on the presumption that they are alive. The following action was a massive crackdown on Hamas, arresting almost all Hamas leaders in West Bank. Already on June 15th Netanyahu was blaming Hamas as well as holding the Palestinian Authority responsible. This was of course to play a part in his strategy of rejection against the April 2014 Palestinian unity government, where Netanyahu said Abbas should choose between ‘Peace or Hamas’. Hamas itself denied involvement, and it was already clear to the Israeli authorities at least by 26th of June that Hamas was not responsible. Nonetheless, when the bodies of the three were found on June 30th, Netanyahu ignored that, and said “Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay”.

This was the lead-up to the 2014 Gaza onslaught.

With such a track record, one must therefore be extremely cautious about what Netanyahu says about who is responsible, especially when there’s a gag order on the case.

Netanyahu clearly has interest to link the recent case to ISIS and global terror events, because it would alleviate the international diplomatic pressure now facing Israel in the wake of recent UNSC Reesolution 2334 condemning all Israeli settlements as ‘flagrant violations’. If the Jerusalem ramming was an act related to the occupation, as everything so far suggests it is, it could be viewed as a strengthening of the point against the occupation. Netanyahu obviously wants the pretext thrown off as far as possible, and what is more convenient than to place this in the pretext of ‘global terror’ and to link it to France and Germany, thereby garnering western support. Germany has just responded sympathetically yesterday by lighting up of the Brandenburg Gate with the Israeli flag.

Another aspect in the rhetoric of ‘terror’, one that is hardly being questioned at all in mainstream media, is whether this does, at all, constitute terror.

After all, the driver of the truck was a Palestinian, resident of East Jerusalem which Israel considers an annexed part of the ‘complete and united capital’, a claim which no state in the world recognizes. For the whole world but Israel, East Jerusalem is occupied territory. In Netanyahu’s rendering, it is not even significant to mention that the four Israelis who died were soldiers (and not worth even mentioning that the attack also claimed a fifth life, that of the driver, but let’s not get over our heads here). He simply notes them as “four young Israelis”. This is a description that strips the context of its military aspect, and I think Netanyahu knows this very well, as I will elaborate later. By such rhetoric, Netanyahu blurs the distinction between military and civilian targets, a principle which is very important in the distinctions concerning terror. It does not matter whether the soldiers were combat soldiers, as the Israeli media stresses, in regards to this distinction. When we sum up the whole of the setting, what we actually have is a Palestinian under occupation, targeting a gathering which is rather exclusively manned by soldiers, military representatives of the army that is occupying him. All this falls, prima facie, within the distinctions regarding legitimate resistance to occupation. It does not matter how ugly it looks, we cannot without critical appraisal of the context just call it “terror”

But “terror” is precisely what Netanyahu wants the whole world to call this, and so far, it is working quite well. The ISIS claim is supposed to detach this from the local setting of occupation, but we only have Netanyahu’s word for it, and as mentioned, he is a notorious liar and manipulator. His claim about ISIS is loose, but much of the mainstream media seems to be complying uncritically with the ‘terror’ claim.

Netanyahu about ‘terror groups’ and ‘freedom fighters’

It can be interesting to reflect upon how Netanyahu views the question of terror, when it regards not Palestinians, but rather Zionist Jews. I’m not saying ‘Israelis’, because the case which I now will refer to is from 1946 – the bombing of the King David Hotel (which was housing, in part, British Mandate administrative headquarters) by Menahem Begin’s Irgun, an act actually approved by Haganah commander Itzhak Sadeh as part of the joint “rebel movement” of the time, which was a cooperation of ALL the Zionist underground militias, including Haganah, Irgun and Lehi. The bombing killed about 91 people, amongst them 28 British, 41 considered ‘Arabs’, 17 Jews, and 5 others.

In 2006, the Begin Heritage Center held a symposium at the 60th anniversary of the bombing, on the issue of who is a freedom fighter and who is a terrorist. Netanyahu was even recorded on CNN at the point saying that “It’s very important to make the distinction between terror groups and freedom fighters, and between terror action and legitimate military action”,

As Haaretz journalist Tom Segev reported, Netanyahu said that “the difference between a terrorist operation and a legitimate military action is expressed….in the fact that the terrorists intend to harm civilians whereas legitimate combatants try to avoid that.”

Now that is some statement. When mirroring this against the recent Jerusalem ramming attack, it would appear, that the attack may fall quite well within Netanyahu’s own definitions of ‘legitimate military action’.

Segev noted, that “according to that theory, the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by a Palestinian organization is a legitimate military operation”, and I would say that is exactly right – Gilad Shalit’s capture in 2006 by Hamas was no ‘kidnap’ either, as most all Israelis reflexively regard it. It was a military operation targeting a military subject. It was a mere military capture.

“Of course this is not what Netanyahu meant”, Segev hastened to add. “He learned only this from the bombing of the hotel: that the Arabs are bad and we are good.”

Indeed, the purpose of the Begin Heritage center symposium was hardly real soul-searching scrutiny about past actions of the Irgun. Its purpose was, naturally, to whitewash Jewish terror. The symposium ended with an unveiling of a plaque at the King David hotel, which noted the attack committed by “Irgun fighters at the order of the Hebrew Resistance Movement”. The plaque had initially contained the typical Irgun whitewash narrative: “For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated and after 25 minutes the bombs exploded, and to the Irgun’s regret and dismay 91 persons were killed.” I shall not delve into the mass of details regarding the whitewash narrative, that is over 70 years old. But to summate shortly, whilst the Irgun had apparently gotten two of its women to make warning calls about one-quarter of an hour before the bomb went off (according to Thurston Clarke’s analysis contradicting Begin’s 25-minute claim), these calls were not made to the British authorities, but rather to the hotel switchboard (which did not share a direct line with the authorities), the French Consulate nearby and the Palestine Post – this is even the confirmed by one of the alleged callers, in a recent Hebrew interview (Haaretz) 70 years later  . It would appear that the whole telephone issue, if it ever happened, was construed to provide a moral whitewash for the bombing.

Back to the plaque unveiling in 2006, The British were rather enraged about this. Simon Macdonald, the British ambassador to Israel, and consul general John Jenkins, wrote to the mayor of Jerusalem protesting at the plaque. “We don’t think it’s right for an act of terrorism to be commemorated,” their letter read. The British embassy said that “There is no credible evidence that any warning reached the British authorities.” This was quite an embarrassment probably not least to centrist MK Tzipi Livni, whose father Eitan was an Irgun member.

The plaque has thus subsequently been amended, dropping the implication that Britain ignored any warnings.

Regardless of warning or no warning, whichever way you turn it, this was an attack that is widely considered to have been a terror attack, this is internationally quite uncontroversial. We do not need to get into the details of how rife such warnings were at the time, nor to address that a search squad had been at the hotel earlier that day apparently following bluff warning. The fact of the matter is that the Irgun and the Jewish Resistance Movement were putting many civilians in real danger. Segev summates in his coverage of 2006: “Her Majesty’s ambassador and the consul have written to the mayor of Jerusalem that such an act of terror cannot be honored, even if it was preceded by a warning. To this day, it is not clear what made the bombing’s planners believe the British would evacuate the building. Would Benjamin Netanyahu, as prime minister, have ordered his bureau evacuated on the basis of telephone threat from a Palestinian terror group?”

What ‘terror’ really means for Netanyahu

But the recent truck ramming attack in East Jerusalem, in the old ‘no-mans-land’ only a short distance from the King David hotel, appears to be a universe apart in Netanyahu’s perception. It doesn’t matter that only military personnel were targeted. It doesn’t matter if he’s Palestinian, it doesn’t matter where it happened – it’s all just “terror”.

We need to be careful that we do not all fall into Netanyahu’s and Israel’s very selective view on what constitutes terror, as well as why it is committed. Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman takes that line and says that the truck-ramming attack was not fueled by the issue of Israeli settlements, rather by the mere fact that “we are Jews and we live here in Israel.” He doesn’t have to provide an evidential basis for the claim. There is apparently none. “There was no other reason and no need to look for an excuse – not Jewish settlements and negotiations but an attack inspired by ISIS” he said . Chief of Police Ronnie Alsheikh said he could not rule out the driver of the truck having been motivated by a similar attack on a Berlin Christmas market that killed 12 people last month – “It is certainly possible to be influenced by watching TV, but it is difficult to get into the head of every individual to determine what prompted him, but there is no doubt that these things do have an effect,” he said.

Yes, why not, why be so pedantic? Let’s just say ISIS, let’s just say terror, what does it matter? Do we really need to get to the bottom of this?

Israel’s Security Cabinet has already decided to approve administrative detention for people identifying with Islamic State, and to destroy the home of the ‘terrorist’ as soon as possible, reject family-reunification requests his family had filed for relatives in Gaza and the West Bank, and not to hand over the terrorist’s body to his family for burial.

The word ‘terror’ for Israel means, that more repression and collective punishment of Palestinians is possible, with less international scrutiny.

It’s a button that makes it all happen.

That’s what ‘terror’ really means for Netanyahu.

About Jonathan Ofir

Israeli musician, conductor and blogger / writer based in Denmark.

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131 Responses

  1. Maghlawatan
    January 10, 2017, 3:44 pm

    Israel uses ISIS and terror to draw attention away from the occupation. Another 4 Jews sacrificed to the YESHA God.

    YESHA is related to Moloch

    Rabbinical tradition depicted Moloch as a bronze statue heated with fire into which the victims were thrown. This has been associated with reports by Greco-Roman authors on the child sacrifices in Carthage to Baal Hammon,[1] especially since archaeological excavations since the 1920s have produced evidence for child sacrifice in Carthage as well as inscriptions including the term MLK, either a theonym or a technical term associated with sacrifice. In interpretatio graeca, the Phoenician god was identified with Cronus, due to the parallel mytheme of Cronus devouring his children.

  2. Tuyzentfloot
    January 10, 2017, 4:29 pm

    He continued, loosely suggesting a link to ISIS terrorism: “This is part of the same pattern inspired by Islamic State, by ISIS, that we saw first in France, then in Germany and now in Jerusalem. This is part of the same ongoing battle against this global scourge of the new terrorism. We can only fight it together, but we have to fight it, and we will.”

    Ah, all he’s saying is that ‘you should react to this the same way you react to Isis’, which is not really new. The reporting I saw said there was a link to Isis. I found that odd since Isis is considered somewhat of an ally.

  3. john douglas
    January 10, 2017, 4:36 pm

    This is a thorough treatment of Netanyahu’s use of the emotional residue of the words “terrorist” and “terror”. I have two thoughts. The first is along the lines of what is good for the goose… If Netanyahu wants to loosen the the boundaries of the words, for example by allowing into it the cases of military victims, then others should allow in the case of military perpetrators. What could be the rationale for NOT calling a rocket/bombing program that kills 550 children or a gunboat attack that kills four boys playing football on a beach “terrorism”, and NOT calling the IDF a “terrorist” organization.
    The second point is that the use of the word “terrorism” has only one real function, as propaganda in favor of established governments and their established forces, no matter how corrupt, by demonizing that only way of fighting war that the weaker half of asymmetrical conflicts will ever have. It is a linguistic trick used by the powerful to bolster the powerful.

  4. Qualtrough
    January 10, 2017, 10:19 pm

    Keywords used by MSM were that the victims were ‘civilians’ and ‘pedestrians’. You had to dig deep to find that all the victims were members of the armed forces of an occupying state. It is horrible that young people had to die like that, but no more horrible then when young Palestinians are cut down weeds with nary a thought spared for them and their families.

    On the same topic, did anyone else notice the unseemly (for soldiers) reaction to the attack? Despite being armed the vast majority scattered like scared mice as soon as they realized what happened. No thought for their comrades who had just been hurt or a thought to confronting the attacker, it was run for your lives! This is the third video I have seen of IDF soldiers fleeing in a panic in the face of danger. I don’t think this bodes well for the IDF if they ever get in any toe-to-toe confrontations, given the on-the-ground fighting experience that Syrian, Hezbollah,Iranian forces, and others have been gaining recently.

    • Citizen
      January 11, 2017, 9:02 am

      On Twitter, there are quite a few videos of IDFtroops fleeing–it’s not hard to see why it got smacked by Hezbollah.

    • chocopie
      January 11, 2017, 7:05 pm

      It is horrible that young people had to die like that, but no more horrible then when young Palestinians are cut down weeds with nary a thought spared for them and their families.

      Actually, it is much worse when Palestinians are killed, since they are under occupation, unarmed, and not part of an occupying army. Many of them are minors or non-combatants, killed in their own homes or at least in their own neighborhoods. Israeli soldiers, however young they may be, are far from their own homes, frequently outside the borders of their country, and they are the aggressors. When they are killed, it may be sad on a personal level for such young people to lose their lives (and for such a lousy cause!) but they are soldiers after all, and that’s what they signed up for.

      I don’t support forced conscription and think it shouldn’t be allowed, but this is a nearly universal practice across many societies worldwide. Israel chooses to put all its 18-year-olds’ lives on the line to defend the occupation and continued theft of Palestinian land. We can have some human compassion for the life of an 18-year-old raised in a Jim Crow society who dies defending the indefensible, but the fact remains, they are soldiers, and when you’re running an occupation and an ethnic cleansing campaign you have to expect some blowback.

      • Marnie
        January 12, 2017, 1:20 am

        I don’t have much sympathy regarding the soldiers that were killed; it’s a drop in the bucket when compared to the deaths of palestinians. And boobie and co will be milking this story way past it’s sell by date to anyone who’ll listen. Of course this is his agenda. Dead jews, be they israeli soldiers or settlers, French jews, American jews or British jews, are just the type of fodder the zionist cult and its high priest love and require to continue.

        I was more shaken by the photo of the truck and the windshield. I count 11 bullet holes and it makes me physically ill. I know his man’s family, neighbors and friends face collective punishment.
        The Times of Israel | News from Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish …
        http://www.timesofisrael.com/
        Minister: Jerusalem truck terrorist’s family to lose residency.

        Watching tRUMP’s so-called press conference has my head spinning. We’re living in an orwellian universe, words don’t mean what they used to mean. tRUMP’s hatred (read fear) of the press and his preemptive strike starting a year ago or maybe longer with his cries of ‘fake news’ is cynical and sick and very dangerous – everything is ‘fake news’ except for stories that flatter his wide ass.

        Boobie’s ISIS allegation is meant to paint every Palestinian as a ‘terrorist’. The word ‘terrorist’ has about as much meaning as ‘antisemitism’. Palestinian = Hamas = ISIS. WTF.

  5. Ossinev
    January 11, 2017, 5:49 am

    Warning or no warning the attack on the King David Hotel was a terrorist attack by Jewish terrorists. The British Ambassador objected to the plaque but as the scenario unfolded appeared to back off when the reference to the British ignoring “warnings” was removed from the inscription. It speaks volumes for the control that Israel Firsters in the UK exercise here in the UK that the issue appears to have been since quietly dropped by the British Government when it should have been pursued until the plaque was removed.

    The leader of the Irgun a Fascist Zioterrorist by the name of Menachim Begin went on to become Prime Minister of Israel. Of course in the Ziorewrite of history the likes of Begin and his comrade in arms , Yitzhak Shamir, also surprise surprise future Prime Minister of Israel, are portrayed as “freedom fighters” or “resistance fighters”. In reality they were just a Jewish Zionist version of the modern ISIS = murdering terrorist thugs.

  6. Eva Smagacz
    January 11, 2017, 8:07 am

    Thank you for this.
    I absolutely agree with your take on “terror” being used to smear resistance movements legitimate attack at the military targets. I remember this from IRA “terrorists” killing british military personnel in Ireland.

    Resistance movements (not all) are known as to use terrorist acts and perform illegal attacks at the civil targets.
    This cannot ever be morally justified.
    But if you have military personnel, or militia, donning civilian cloths, then they are still legitimate targets.

    Vast majority of targets during “Knife Intifada” is Israeli military personnel, attacked in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

    Putting forward this point of view in the comment sections of various american newspapers causes all sort of abuse, but absolutely no rebuttals on the facts of the matter.

    And I believe that the battle for american public opinion will be won in those comment sections. People who accept the “official viewpoint” will rarely know how to find contrary points of view on the internet. (they don’t know that they don’t know that there is more to the official story).

    • Citizen
      January 11, 2017, 9:06 am

      Yes, way too many Americans rather spend their google searches on sports scores or shoe sale prices. Time for Americans to grow up and see beyond their lunch pails our foreign policy in action.

      • amigo
        January 11, 2017, 11:37 am

        ” Time for Americans to grow up and see beyond their lunch pails our foreign policy in action ” citizen

        That,s because the “Lobby ” is hugely successful in convincing Dick and Jane that the P/I conflict is complicated and has a long and protracted history.Better to just take the side of the blue eyed white European holocaust victims who everyone is out to get and throw them into the sea .Much easier than trying to understand those Arabs.

        It is said that the beginning of intellect is the ability to hold 2 opposing points of view at the same time.Looks as if the Lobby does a good job in preventing intellect from enlightening Dick and Jane.

    • Jonathan Ofir
      January 12, 2017, 7:51 am

      Thank you Eva.

  7. hophmi
    January 11, 2017, 8:19 am

    “targeting a gathering which is rather exclusively manned by soldiers, military representatives of the army that is occupying him. All this falls, prima facie, within the distinctions regarding legitimate resistance to occupation. It does not matter how ugly it looks, we cannot without critical appraisal of the context just call it “terror”

    Untrue. That junction is used by civilians all the time. Birthright trips go through there all the time. There is no evidence I’ve seen to suggest that soldiers were the intended target, and since Palestinian terrorists target civilians all the time, it’s just as likely that the soldiers were just the folks who happened to be there when this guy decided to mow Israelis down.

    In any event, there is no right to dress in plainclothes and use a civilian vehicle to kill people under international law. And when you advocate for this kind of behavior, as Mondoweiss always does, it’s just another reminder that BDS is not non-violent in any way.

    • eljay
      January 11, 2017, 8:53 am

      || hophmi: … there is no right to dress in plainclothes and use a civilian vehicle to kill people under international law. And when you advocate for this kind of behavior, as Mondoweiss always does, it’s just another reminder that BDS is not non-violent in any way. ||

      There are no rights under international law to establish a religion-supremacist state, to engage in colonialism or to commit (war) crimes. But when you advocate, undertake, justify, excuse and/or defend this kind of behaviour, as Zionists always do, it’s just another reminder that the “Jewish State” project is anything but just or moral.

      I would like to see all criminals arrested, tried and held accountable for their actions. The truck driver’s dead so it’s too late to deal with him, but it’s not too late to arrest, try and hold accountable Zionist (war) criminals.

    • Citizen
      January 11, 2017, 9:09 am

      The victims were all lieutenants in the IDF; Twitter has shown many videos of executed Palestinians in the street; the Israeli claim is usually the executed Palestinians took a swipe with a kitchen knife at an IDF occupation soldier.

    • broadside
      January 11, 2017, 10:27 am

      You outdid yourself on this one, hophmi.

      “And when you advocate for this kind of behavior, as Mondoweiss always does, it’s just another reminder that BDS is not non-violent in any way.”

      Ha ha ha ha ha. Doesn’t even raise to the category of sophistry. (If you were a magician, you just dropped your top hat. And sawed your assistant in half.)

      “there is no right to dress in plainclothes and use a civilian vehicle to kill people under international law.”

      Yes, he should have stolen a tank, and gone home and put his uniform on — just like the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto did!

      “There is no evidence I’ve seen to suggest that soldiers were the intended target ” — other than the fact four soldiers died, you mean?

      And those soldiers — what’s conspicuously missing from reports on this attack, here too (as well as in Isabel Kershner’s woeful piece in the NYT), is what the Forward and Times of Israel have reported: two of the victims were American. How often, when there’s an attack overseas, does the American media not mention American casualties? Never, so far as I know. So why not here?

      Maybe because the American media doesn’t want Americans to think — hmmm…. Two of four were Americans??? How many Americans are serving in the Israeli Army. Sorry, but isn’t there just a whiff there of …. dual loyalty???

    • Mooser
      January 11, 2017, 11:58 am

      “it’s just another reminder that BDS is not non-violent in any way.”

      Okay “Hophmi” let’s get down to brass tacks. How much Israeli stuff do I need to buy to stay off the “no-fly” list?

    • Annie Robbins
      January 11, 2017, 12:25 pm

      no right to dress in plainclothes and use a civilian vehicle to kill people under international law. And when you advocate for this kind of behavior, as Mondoweiss always does

      what? mondoweiss always advocates killing people? maybe i should scroll up and reread the article. where does it advocate killing people? can you cite what part of the article advocates killing people? or when you say “mondoweiss” do you mean all the commenters? are you confusing explaining or defending a right of violent resistance with advocating violence and killing people?

      it’s just another reminder that BDS is not non-violent in any way. –

      bds is a non violent tactic. it doesn’t mean every person who advocates for it rejects or denies the right of an occupied people to resist violently. i can be pro bds while acknowledging a palestinian persons right to resist a violent occupation using violent means against the occupier.

      That junction is used by civilians all the time. Birthright trips go through there all the time. There is no evidence I’ve seen to suggest that soldiers were the intended target

      and would you say the same if an individual walked up to a police officer on a public street and stabbed him? “civilians walk thru there all the time” ?

      it was dozens and dozens of troops all dressed in identical uniforms. rather conspicuous if you ask me. unless he had a heart attack or something, or went into shock… that’s random and therefore not even an attack at all. but if they’d been israeli students all dressed in identical school uniforms would you be arguing there was no intention to target the students? seriously hops, i can’t really imagine you saying “there’s no evidence the students were targeted .. lots of ordinary civilians pass by the same place all the time”.

      oh no, you’d be going on and on about targeting innocent students.

      • DaBakr
        January 11, 2017, 2:11 pm

        @an

        so you are saying that you can be supportive of a bds movement that you believe is legitimately non-violent as a tactic to achieve ‘liberation’ from occupation while at the same time you can be supportive of palestinians using violent means to fight against an occupation that uses violent means itself wether in ‘defense’ or ‘offense’? And imo, that is fine. I feel the same way about both parties tactics in the i/p conflict.

        i just don’t believe there is any sense to be made from terms like ‘proportionate’ responses like say, limited bds and don’t kill too many soldiers/fighters (as if there is a magic number of deaths that is acceptable and one more then that number and holy hell breaks out?) proportionate implies a certain sense of fair play which itself implies there is certain element that wants to extend the given conflict until the situation on the ground may be much more conducive to their own position. interesting. isn’t that just sooooo surprising that such strategies exist? none of that going on in the i/p however. now way.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 11, 2017, 3:00 pm

        at the same time you can be supportive of palestinians using violent means to fight against an occupation that uses violent means itself wether in ‘defense’ or ‘offense’?

        let’s untangle this a second. palestinians are resisting a violent occupation, therefore, i believe, they are acting in defense. israel is the aggressor, oppressor, occupier (offense). technically they are not defending themselves when they kill and oppress palestinians however much they try to frame it as such. hence, the constant propaganda of israel “reacting” when they attack, which is slipped into almost all statements regarding their violent aggressions against palestinians.

        next, here’s what i said:

        . i can be pro bds while acknowledging a palestinian persons right to resist a violent occupation using violent means against the occupier.

        so before addressing your concerns, do you even acknowledge palestinians right to resistance? or is that anti semitic too?

        btw, i noticed you didn’t come up w/any evidence mondoweiss was “always” advocating killing people. that’s a good sign.

        i just don’t believe there is any sense to be made from terms like ‘proportionate’

        how unsurprising, given you’re a defender of the side with unlimited power.

        proportionate implies a certain sense of fair play which itself implies there is certain element that wants to extend the given conflict until the situation on the ground may be much more conducive to their own position.

        your thinking is deranged. no palestinian supporter one wants to “extend the conflict”. and i have no fantasies that the “situation on the ground” is going to improve for palestinians. it’s the outside that bring can pressure and change. your mind is just cooking up scenarios in which to defame supporters of palestine.

      • Mooser
        January 11, 2017, 2:29 pm

        “Dabakr” you are right. Everything is stacked against Israel. It’s just not fair. The entire world against about a million settlers, and maybe about three million right-wing Israelis. How can anybody be against such small numbers of people?

      • Jonathan Ofir
        January 12, 2017, 8:32 am

        Thanks Annie. Let’s read Gideon Levy on the duty, and the right, of Palestinians to resist: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.622711 – But let’s not leave it at that. Let’s relate to Hophmi’s claim about “no right to dress in plainclothes and use a civilian vehicle to kill people under international law.”

        Now, let us not even go in depth into the fact that Israeli troops regularly act in plainclothes (Mistarvim) and infiltrate Palestinian demonstrations, sometimes shooting them in the leg and taking them away. Let us not even delve into the myriad of Israeli killings in plainclothes on foreign territory. No – let’s go straight to the argument regarding ‘international law’:

        United Nations General Assembly Resolution A/RES/33/24 of 29 November 1978:
        “2. Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, particularly armed struggle;”

        General Assembly Resolution A/RES/3246 (XXIX) of 29 November 1974:
        “3. Reaffirms the legitimacy of the peoples’ struggle for liberation form colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation by all available means, including armed struggle; …
        7. Strongly condemns all Governments which do not recognize the right to self-determination and independence of peoples under colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation, notably the peoples of Africa and the Palestinian people;”

        United Nations GA resolutions may not be as binding as SC resolutions (and as a side note, when have SC resolutions really bothered Israel anyway – it just flouted 2334), they still reflect a certain consensus regarding the law from the international community.

        These resolutions do not regard terror as such, and it is clear that terror can be applied even by occupied people – but the main issue about that is the nature of the victimising – not the occupied victim. That is, that if it targets civilians, that would be a terror act (as Eva Smagadz points out above), regardless of the fact of occupation.

        Broadside bring up an example of the Warsaw ghetto – and asks sarcastically whether Jews should have stolen a tank and taken on uniforms in order to resist ‘lawfully’. This reflects one of the major problems within the paradigm of occupation – that by the fact of the occupation, the militant factions are often considered illegitimate by the occupier, so it is often pointless to wear an outfit, although some more organised militant factions do, like Hizbollah and Hamas. Now someone could come and say, that the Palestinians have the PA which is armed – but the PA has an official and explicit security cooperation with Israel, so it is obviously NOT the force that can be applied to resist occupation.

        The suggestion would thus be that NO ARMED RESISTANCE should be possible for Palestinians – despite the international consensus about it. What should they do then? Ah, use boycott, divestment and sanctions – which is generally known as protected speech. But when that’s against Israel, it suddenly becomes ‘diplomatic terror’, as Israel’s top diplomat Tzipi Hotoveli (deputy Foreign Miniser, Netanyahu holds the portfolio of Minister) recently said.

        Hophmi also seems to take this line, loosely conjuring guilt by association, suggesting some columnist here has ‘advocated such behaviour’, indeed that ‘Mondoweiss always does’ – and then connects that to BDS to suggest that BDS is violent.

        It’s an astounding feat of logical gymnastics that Hophmi is performing here before us.

      • Mooser
        January 12, 2017, 6:48 pm

        “It’s an astounding feat of logical gymnastics that Hophmi is performing here before us”

        Well, “Hophmi” gets upset with Mondo.
        “Hophmi” has seen through to the underlying pathology of the site, and he doesn’t like it one bit. And this is what “Hophmi” sees:

        “Phil has internalized anti-Jewish hatred, and like those secularist Jews in Europe who looked down upon their brethren or converted to Christianity to escape their Judaism, Phil adopts the classic tropes of the self-hater.
        Self-hatred is a disease. It is a sad disease borne of many generations of persecution, but it is a disease. And Phil is afflicted with it, as many Jews have been in the past. And it is usually the self-haters who cause the worst damage to the Jewish community, precisely because of how small it is.”
        http://mondoweiss.net/profile/hophmi/?keyword=fall+away#sthash.t74puCfx.dpuf

        “Hophmi” is trying desperately to cauterize the locus of infection, lest all Mondo readers succumb to the “sad disease”.
        As to the advisability of stressing the smallness and fragility of the Jewish community if you want to push an illegal settlement plan, and defy international law, “Hophmi” knows best, I guess.

      • talknic
        January 13, 2017, 7:29 am

        Jonathan Ofir January 12, 2017, 8:32 am

        “United Nations GA resolutions may not be as binding as SC resolutions”

        The Laws and UN Charter re-affirmed and or emphasized in ANY UN resolution are binding

      • Sibiriak
        January 13, 2017, 8:22 am

        talknic: The Laws and UN Charter re-affirmed and or emphasized in ANY UN resolution are binding
        ——————–

        But the interpretive application of international law in UNGA resolutions to particular situations may not be binding.

    • YoniFalic
      January 11, 2017, 1:41 pm

      @Hophmi says:

      In any event, there is no right to dress in plainclothes and use a civilian vehicle to kill people under international law. And when you advocate for this kind of behavior, as Mondoweiss always does, it’s just another reminder that BDS is not non-violent in any way.

      As an ex IDF soldier, who under orders murdered unarmed Palestinian men, women, and kids, during Cast Lead, I certainly considered the driver’s act to have constituted legitimate resistance to racist genocidal invaders and occupiers even if he wore plainclothes and used a civilian vehicle.

      The French and Polish resistance did not wear uniforms and used all sorts of civilian equipment including vehicles.

      Just as the French and Polish resistance consisted of heroic fighters while German Nazis including civilians were enemies of the human race, today the Palestinian resistance consists of heroic fighters while Zionists including civilians are enemies of the human race.

      • MHughes976
        January 11, 2017, 4:36 pm

        But there’s a problem, is there not, Yoni, about acting wrongly against wrongdoers or illegally against lawbreakers? I think that opposition to Nazism produced crimes and horrors as well as great deeds – Keith Lowe’s Savage Continent and all that. I’m not very good on legal matters and I think law codes cannot really provide the last word. But I do note that the famous Additional Protocol of 1977 to the Geneva Conventions, often regarded as too lenient towards ‘terrorists’ does insist on some distinguishing mark to be worn or displayed during an attack, so I think hophmi has a point.
        Dab seems, if I understand him, to be disparaging the principle of proportionality, which seems to me essential to any kind of morality: how do you deal with any moral questions without an idea of Not Enough or Too Much.
        As to our advocacy for violence, I think most of us believe that enough people have been killed and would rather that there not be even one more.

      • YoniFalic
        January 12, 2017, 10:03 am

        @MHughes976,

        You are giving the Hasbarah version of the 1977 Additional Protocols to the Geneva Conventions.

        In order to promote the protection of the civilian population from the effects of hostilities, combatants are obliged to distinguish themselves from the civilian population while they are engaged in an attack or in a military operation preparatory to an attack. Recognizing, however, that there are situations in armed conflicts where, owing to the nature of the hostilities an armed combatant cannot so distinguish himself, he shall retain his status as a combatant, provided that, in such situations, he carries his arms openly:

        a) during each military engagement, and
        b) during such time as he is visible to the adversary while he is engaged in a military deployment preceding the launching of an attack in which he is to participate.

        Acts which comply with the requirements of this paragraph shall not be considered as perfidious within the meaning of Article 37, paragraph 1 c).

        In the case of an outlaw invader population committed to perpetrating genocide (e.g., Zio settler colonists), wearing a distinguishing mark is an untenable requirement for the native resistance. In this case there was no issue of confusion of the resistance fighter with the protected civilian native population. All Zio settler colonists are outlaws and do not constitute a protected civilian population. Any Zio outlaw may be killed with complete impunity under the international anti-genocide legal regime. A truck is obviously a weapon and must be treated as carried openly.

      • gamal
        January 12, 2017, 12:02 pm

        “But there’s a problem, is there not”

        yes, kind of, 3 that i can think of

        1. dul kalu il dunya ghaba wa wal0u ilfatil

        2. bahgit il irhab balina kam sana amerika wa israil wakhdiniha fatawina

        but mostly

        Ya amm arabi imta nawin tadharaku

        here shaaban expostulates, with all necessary translation, its common knowledge in my manor after all

        https://youtu.be/ZamJloNsokw

      • Maghlawatan
        January 12, 2017, 2:55 pm

        Ya Gamal

        Shabaan is masri khaalis يَعْنِي
        Very few artists so politically aware in the dying days of neoliberalism

    • oldgeezer
      January 11, 2017, 6:11 pm

      @hophead

      I have yet to see any evidence that the innocent Palestinian civilian was trying to hurt, let alone kill, anyone.

      Looks to me lime the typical thug plotters of the idf were killed when their attempt to murder an innocent civilian backfired on them. The record clearly shows the iof terrorists habitually like to murder unarmed and innocent civilians.

      • MHughes976
        January 12, 2017, 11:28 am

        Well, Yoni, I can see ways in which these things could be argued back and forth according to the letter of the law. Is someone whose sole weapon is a truck showing himself to be armed simply by sitting in the truck? Was Jesus, if he made a heavy whip, a potentially lethal weapon, out of cords or strips of leather which were normally items of clothing or in civilian use, acting fairly? I don’t think an attack of this sort, without anything conventionally regarded as a weapon, was directly envisaged in 77. The ‘spirit of the law’ is elusive, though in my view its spirit is not to give complete freedom of action and place no obligations at all on anyone engaged in any kind of military action or political violence.

    • talknic
      January 11, 2017, 7:49 pm

      Zionutters. Just how moronic are they? They seem determined to show us

      hophmi January 11, 2017, 8:19 am

      “There is no evidence I’ve seen to suggest that soldiers were the intended target,”

      Despite the fact that only soldiers were targeted and only soldiers were victims

      ” and since Palestinian terrorists target civilians all the time”

      The IDF Memorial site shows that more military are targeted, injured or killed than are Israeli civilians. It also shows us they were attacked, injured and/or killed while they were illegally in non-Israeli territories

      ” it’s just as likely that the soldiers were just the folks who happened to be there when this guy decided to mow Israelis down”

      The soldiers had no right to be there, nor do any Israelis for that matter, Jewish or non-Jewish.

      “In any event, there is no right to dress in plainclothes and use a civilian vehicle to kill people under international law”

      Go whine to your bosses https://www.google.com.au/search?q=video+Israelundercover+agents

      And when you advocate for this kind of behavior, as Mondoweiss always does"

      Against soldiers, quite valid.

      ” it’s just another reminder that BDS is not non-violent in any way”

      Nothing to do with BDS you stupid stupid person

    • Marnie
      January 12, 2017, 3:07 am

      There are no civilians in the zionist-cult. All zionist-cult members are soldiers in the ethnoreligious supremacy forces.

  8. Atlantaiconoclast
    January 11, 2017, 10:15 am

    Israel has regularly acted as the Air Force for Al Qaeda and ISIS in Syria, by attacking the Syrian Arab Army, but never AQ or ISIS. Why our side is not proclaiming this fact every chance we can is beyond me. The American people see an Arab killing a Jew and they think terror. It is that simple. Now if they knew that the Jew was a soldier for a state that supports ISIS in Syria, then maybe we could get some minds to change.

    • DaBakr
      January 11, 2017, 2:21 pm

      @a

      your mind is that indoctrinated that you really see israel as ally of isis AND al-quaeda. if your thinking was even remotely sane there could easily be a peace deal made with israel having such favourable circumstances. and of course it would never occur to you that anything the idf might be doing could be construed as a both a warning and a guarantee? and naturally you would oppose any attacks on the syrian regime because why? because its israels fault that the assad clan has been brutalizing it own people for 50yrs of tyrannical iron-fisted murderous rule? oh yes, of course the assads have used the evil israel as an excuse for why the assads need 90% of all state money to defend the glorious syrian people from the evil zionist entity just next door.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 11, 2017, 3:30 pm

        dabakr, just out of curiosity did you read “Syrian army reportedly seizes Israeli-made weapons on their way to ISIS”

        http://m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Syrian-army-reportedly-seizes-Israeli-made-weapons-on-their-way-to-ISIS-452497#article=6017ODc3QUExQThEMjgxNzEwOEVDNEFCNEZCMDIzRDExMEE=

        According to the reports, Syrian Army forces, in cooperation with local residents on the western outskirts of al-Suweida, confiscated Wednesday morning a vehicle that was coming from the Daraa eastern suburbs, on its way to ISIS forces in the eastern Syrian Desert.

        The vehicle was carrying Israeli-made mines with Hebrew writing on them, as well as mortars, RPG rockets and hand grenades. It was not immediately clear how the Israeli weapons got into the hands of those arming ISIS.

        A local source in al-Suweida said: “During operations aimed at tracking the movements of terrorist

        organizations and their methods to transfer ammunition, a car that contained Israeli-made anti-personnel mines, several RPG rockets and launchers and mortars of different kinds was seized.”

        According to the source, the terrorist driving the vehicle was “liquidated” by the Syrian forces.

        Located near Syria’s border with Jordan, al-Suweida province is inhabited mainly by the Druse minority. In the last year, the governorate, which is known for siding with Assad, has witnessed escalating tensions after the assassination of Syrian Druse Sheikh Wahid al-Balous, a major anti-government leader.

        curious. photos too.

      • Atlantaiconoclast
        January 11, 2017, 6:21 pm

        I dare you to research the Oded Yinon Plan. Besides, Israeli leaders have made it clear through their own words that they prefer the so called rebels vs Assad. Yes, Israel has even given medical care to injured Al Qaeda fighters in Syria. Israel and the US have both used Islamic extremists as their Emanuel Goldstein at times and as their ally at other times. This is one of those times.

        And isn’t it telling that you want violence unleashed on the majority supported and secular Syrian regime but not the truly revolting House of Saud or the truly tyrannical Sisi of Egypt. Face it, your Jewish supremacist tendencies are showing. You care not a wink for Syrians. Save us the crocodile tears.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 11, 2017, 6:51 pm

        Israeli leaders have made it clear through their own words that they prefer the so called rebels vs Assad.

        michael oren rather famously stated in an interview he’d rather AQ was ruling vs assad.

  9. amigo
    January 11, 2017, 11:05 am

    “In any event, there is no right to dress in plainclothes and use a civilian vehicle to kill people under international law.” hopknee

    Indeed , so what punishment would you apply to these IDF soldiers dressed in civillian clothing and killing civilians,

    “Soldiers in civilian clothing shot at Palestinians who, thinking they were being robbed, sought to defend their property; one Palestinian killed”

    http://www.btselem.org/firearms/20120424_ramun_incident

    Question hopknee, Do you agree that international law allows oppressed people to resist in any way available to them , up to and including the killing of members of the forces who are occupying/oppressing them –not to mention stealing their land and destroying their homes and imprisoning them without trial.If your answer is in the negative then you are saying the French resistance had no legal right to attack /kill Nazis and were by your logic “Terrorists”.

    Is that your position.

  10. amigo
    January 11, 2017, 11:15 am

    “We in Jerusalem have just experienced an unprovoked terrorist attack, a murderous attack that claimed the lives of four young Israelis ” nietanyahu

    Yahoo , if you don,t want your four young Israelis , (idf thugs armed to the teeth) harmed then get the hell out of occupied Palestine and your babies will be safe.

  11. Ossinev
    January 11, 2017, 12:06 pm

    @Broadside
    “Maybe because the American media doesn’t want Americans to think — hmmm…. Two of four were Americans??? How many Americans are serving in the Israeli Army. Sorry, but isn’t there just a whiff there of …. dual loyalty???”

    Totally agree. Also there is the question of young “Americans” not signing up for the American Army to defend their own country. This specific and worrying contradiction never seems to be addressed in US MSM . I wonder why ?. So other young Americas sign up go off and die or are severely injured in Iraq or Afghanistan defending their countries interest – but Zionist Americans parents have no problem with their sons and daughters going off to a foreign country signing up for that foreign country`s military and getting the opportunity of practising their newly acquired shooting skills on 8 year old stone throwing children. Stinks to high heaven and surely sooner or later ordinary Americans whose sons and daughters have fought and died or have been injured in the line of duty will wake up to the smell.

    And also remember Trump has promised to sort out this sort of thing. Just like car production he will ensure that there will be no outsourcing of American jobs to foreign countries.

  12. Pixel
    January 11, 2017, 6:14 pm

    Terrorism? I don’t think there was even an attack.

    Remember how we mocked the ineptitude of the Mossad vid creators in re: the footage the Mavi Marmara being boarded 7 or so years ago? I try to keep an open mind relative to all reported acts of terror, not just those involving Israel.

    Any vid editors out there willing to speak to the numerous anomalies of the official vid released of this truck attack? https://youtu.be/Sd59e6PhO5g

    • talknic
      January 11, 2017, 8:40 pm

      The analyst is a nut case

      00:37 Who’s talking? The people in the room watching the video on a screen. They’re not outside and they’re not in a van which would have to have been in the air according to his own analysis

      01:03 it’s the edge of a computer screen FFS!!! The video is of a video on a screen. The majority of the shaking is from the second video (of the computer screen)

      @ 03:29 We can see a video camera on top of the lamp post

      The crane can be seen as the truck enters 01:31 and it can be seen bouncing up 01:36 and again at 02:02

  13. talknic
    January 11, 2017, 9:12 pm

    King David Hotel bombing

    Explosives were set in the basement of the hotel restaurant where they must have known there’d be civilian workers (incl Jewish workers) and civilian hotel guests

    A warning was apparently issued … (never does make sense, it allows the target to escape http://mondoweiss.net/2016/04/woman-and-child-killed-in-iraq-as-us-adopts-israeli-knocker-bombs-and-leaflet-drops/#comment-837350 )

    No one evacuated the building. It was blown up regardless!

  14. Elliot
    January 11, 2017, 9:38 pm

    The soldiers who were attacked and died were young men and women with mothers and fathers, lovers and friends. Their humanity should be upheld. The real criminals are those parents and their peers who put their children in harms’ way. Even though they were adults it’s hard for me to hold them fully accountable for their actions. It’s certainly sad that these young lives ended.
    But it’s not terrorism. These were not conscripts. They volunteered to be combat soldiers. they volunteered to serve further time beyond the mandatory three years (for men) and serve as officers.
    The location is also significant. Their commanders brought the cadets to Jerusalem not to have fun for a day but to fill their heads with the idea that “Jerusalem” is worth the fighting, the killing and risking death. The glorious tales of ancient Jerusalem told in front of the promenade’s panoramic vista is meant to sustain these cadets when they are beating the shit out of young men in Hebron. Their job as officers is also to instill that sense of mission in the conscripts they will be training and leading in a few months time.
    Jabel Mukaber is a direct victim of this oppression. I can only imagine what the residents of that village must feel watching the Jewish tourists right on top of their homes. The truck driver chose to attack the officer cadets, not civilians.
    This ain’t terrorism.

  15. Jon66
    January 11, 2017, 9:59 pm

    I thought it was acknowledged that Hamas had funded the kidnap and murder of the three teens.http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/world/middleeast/killing-of-3-israeli-teenagers-loosely-tied-to-hamas-court-documents-show.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

    I also don’t see the problem with describing them as “teens” since they were in their teens. Articles on MW frequently refer to Palestinian 18 and 19 year olds as “teens”.

    • Annie Robbins
      January 11, 2017, 10:46 pm

      hamas came out immediately and denied they were part of a kidnapping (although they applauded it as i recall). so no, only dupes who believe the israeli gov “acknowledge” the israeli gov’s allegation. as i recall there was one hamas official out of syria who said something to that effect (allegedly, which all the zionist commenters refer to), but no one in the region said anything to that effect, and no one believed it except people trying to pin it on hamas — like you.

      • Jon66
        January 12, 2017, 7:18 am

        Annie,
        It was an exiled Hamas official in Turkey. He was responsible for some activities in the West Bank. Senior leadership was unaware, but it was a local initiative funded by Hamas without direct command from senior leadership. That seems to be the reason for the cross messages. In the end, the event was funded by Hamas and performed by Hamas members.
        http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4610107,00.html

    • talknic
      January 12, 2017, 2:24 am

      @ Jon66’s I thought it was acknowledged that Hamas had funded the kidnap and murder of the three teens.http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/world/middleeast/killing-of-3-israeli-teenagers-loosely-tied-to-hamas-court-documents-show.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

      Interesting evidence you’ve submitted

      “But the documents, related to an investigation and indictment of the man suspected of leading the kidnappers, provide no evidence that the top leaders of Hamas directed or had prior knowledge of the plot to abduct the three Israeli youths.”

      • Jon66
        January 12, 2017, 7:22 am

        Talk,
        Yes. It was planned and executed by lower level Hamas members and funded by Hamas. Senior leadership seems to have not directed it or been aware of specifics. It was the responsibility of more junior Hamas members acting in what they believed the wishes of senior leadership. The subsequent praise of senior leadership shows that their initiative was in line with leadership.

      • echinococcus
        January 12, 2017, 9:48 am

        John 66,

        So what is still unclear in the right of invaded and occupied peoples to use all available means to resist occupation?

      • oldgeezer
        January 12, 2017, 12:16 pm

        @jon66

        Shorter jon

        There is no proof that it was a Hamas operation. I have inferred it so it is therefore fact.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 12, 2017, 12:35 pm

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers

        On 5 August, Israel said that it had arrested Hussam Qawasmeh, a cousin of Marwan Qawasmeh, on 11 July, who is suspected of having organized the killing of the three teenagers. According to court documents, Qawasmeh stated that Hamas members in Gaza financed the recruitment and arming of the killers.[26][27] Hussam Qawasmeh’s lawyers stated that he confessed under “heavy torture” from Israeli security services, Shin Bet. Qawasmeh lawyer stated “What he said during interrogation was that he was responsible for ordering the kidnapping”, and that “[t]he orders came from him personally.”[28]

        this is why israel has a 99.7% conviction rate. and we’re supposed to believe all their “suspected” captives are guilty? plus, hundreds of hamas members, with no relation to the crime, were arrested after the kidnapping and still sit in jail:

        The Israel Defense Forces initiated Operation Brother’s Keeper in search of the three teenagers.[10] As part of the operation, in the following 11 days Israel arrested around 350 Palestinians,[11][12][13] including nearly all of Hamas’ West Bank leaders.[14] Five Palestinians were killed during the military operation.[15][16][17][18]

        prior to the kidnapping the right flank of settler leaders stated on several occasions, and it was reported (excuse me for not doing a search, but reported it at the time w/supporting link) netanyahu’s biggest failure was the exchange deal for shalit. complaints about the deal had been going on for years http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/17/world/meast/israel-prisoner-swap-explainer/ and there was also anger regarding the ‘trade’ of prisoners as an offer for palestinians to enter ‘peace’ negotiations and stave off going to the UN. the state of israel used the kidnapping as an excuse to abduct and re-imprison hamas members who had been previously freed in the shalit / and ‘peace’ negotiations exchange. this is who they rounded up. they targeted all the same people. this is not a coincidence and this is why netanyahu announced almost immediately after the kidnapping, with no evidence, it was a hamas operation. then they tortured a relative of the kidnappers to “confess” it was a hamas operation.

        facts matter. and it wasn’t “around 350” it was more like around 500.

        http://www.timesofisrael.com/pm-ordered-rearrests-of-dozens-of-prisoners-freed-in-shalit-deal/

        Ziad Awad, a convicted terrorist released in 2011 as part of the deal to free Gilad Shalit, had been arrested in May for the Passover Eve murder of an off-duty policeman near Hebron, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly ordered Israeli forces looking for the three teens kidnapped on June 12 to re-arrest dozens more of the Palestinian prisoners who were freed in the Shalit exchange…..Netanyahu ordered the military to seize other prisoners freed in the 2011 deal with Hamas because he felt “pressured” to respond to the fact that it was a prisoner freed by Israel, in the controversial Shalit deal that he approved, who had committed the Passover eve murder of father-of-five Baruch Mizrahi. Thus he instructed the IDF and Shin Bet security agency to carry out the mass arrests.

        the killing of Baruch Mizrahi had nothing to do with the kidnapping of the teens and the occasion of the kidnapping was used as a pretext to break the shalit exchange agreement and round up those from the exchange. later, in august a forced confession served to justify the actions taken by the state to break the shalit deal. rather transparent if you ask me.

        and in jon’s telling, all of this is erased from history? i don’t think so. and there are literally dozens of news reports with headlines such as “Israel Re-arrests Terrorists Released in Shalit Prisoner Swap” available by googling “netanyahu arrests hamas prisoners from the shalit exchange after kidnapping”. it takes all of 5 minutes to google this stuff, but it takes remembering the facts reported during the fog of war, the massive upheaval of the west bank that lasted weeks under the pretext of ‘finding and freeing’ the teens that netanyahu already knew were dead, information he kept from the public. all to satisfy netanyahu’s long term political objective, to take the pressure off from the nagging complaint about the shalit deal.

        if the collective punishment of millions of people (including many random killings), is what it takes to break an old bad deal, then any excuse will do, in this case the teens kidnapping served that objective.

        and remember, it was israel’s refusal to turn over more prisoners, as previously agreed to abbas, that ended the ‘peace’ negotiations just weeks before.

        touche!

      • Jon66
        January 12, 2017, 6:51 pm

        Annie,

        His lawyers didn’t deny his involvement, they only said that he confessed under torture. Possibly they made this statement to provide an excuse as to why he revealed the inner workings of Hamas.

        OG,
        You may not accept the evidence, but there is evidence.

        Echi,
        Once again we disagree. The right to resist is not unlimited. Murder of unarmed civilians is not an “available” means of resistance.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 12, 2017, 10:28 pm

        His lawyers didn’t deny his involvement

        they didn’t deny my involvement either, so maybe i did it. did you even bother to read the source link?:

        Neither Qawasami, or other lawyers involved in the case, have been able to visit him, as he is still under interrogation.

        iow, the lawyer repeated what they had been told at the time, because that’s all they knew.

        Possibly they made this statement to provide an excuse as to why he revealed the inner workings of Hamas.

        did he reveal the inner workings of hamas? do you have a source for that? again, did you read the source:

        Israeli intelligence officers who spoke to BuzzFeed continue to cast doubt on the involvement of Hamas……An 18-page summary of the investigation by Israel’s internal security services, reviewed by BuzzFeed on Wednesday, makes no mention of Qawasmeh receiving orders from the Hamas leadership to carry out the attack……Last week, Israeli intelligence officers told BuzzFeed they had not found a direct link to Hamas in their investigation into the kidnapping. “If there was an order, from any of the senior Hamas leadership in Gaza or abroad, this would be an easier case to investigate. We would have that intelligence data. But there is no data, so we have come to conclude that these men were acting on their own,” said one intelligence officer.
        When reached for comment Wednesday, after the Israelis had revealed the arrest of Qawasmeh, the same officer told BuzzFeed that from an intelligence standpoint, a connection still did not exist to the senior Hamas leadership.
        “Was it possible they were a lone Hamas cell that was operating on their own, trying to show up Hamas in Gaza? Yes, that’s possible,” said the intelligence officer, who spoke to BuzzFeed by telephone. “But from the point of view of our investigation, we haven’t found that tie to the senior Hamas leadership, to orders that were made to carry out a kidnapping at this time.”

        iow, they had nothing so they tortured people. lots and lots of them, read the source. they never made a connection to hamas other than the forced confessions.

        anyway, i’m done here.

      • oldgeezer
        January 12, 2017, 8:58 pm

        @jon

        Accusations are not evidence. Nor can guilt be determined by association. If it could be then as a zionist and Israeli clearly there is evidence you are directly involved in and responsible for murder. I would reject that but accept your right to wear it proudly.

        No evidence exists. It is you that can’t accept that. And with that pretext many murders were committed. Millions of dollars stolen. Thousands of lives destroyed. Millions of lives were denied the opportunity to enjoy their basic rights.

        Israel is a blight upon humanity and you support it.

      • oldgeezer
        January 12, 2017, 10:39 pm

        @jon

        My use of profanity is rare.

        My use of non (self) censored profanity is non-existant.

        You deserve an exception for being obtuse. I am being kind in that.

        Frankly stated, you are full of shit.

    • Jonathan Ofir
      January 12, 2017, 9:59 am

      Jon66, I did not refute they could be called ‘teens’, but provided a more specific description – notably including the adult of age 19. It’s not either or. It’s just that when you say teens, many people often would think of people who are not adults. I just wanted to specify and did not refute ‘teens’.
      As to your citing of NY Times and the Hamas connection, as Talknic also points out below, it actually defies your point, as it says ““But the documents, related to an investigation and indictment of the man suspected of leading the kidnappers, provide no evidence that the top leaders of Hamas directed or had prior knowledge of the plot to abduct the three Israeli youths.”

      • Jon66
        January 12, 2017, 10:17 am

        Jonathan,

        Here is a recent headline from MW, “Thousands of Palestinians attend funerals for two teenage boys killed by Israeli occupation forces – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/12/thousands-palestinians-occupation/#sthash.DvkXdE6y.dpuf
        One “boy” was 16 and the other “boy” was 19. So to be more accurate it should have said, ‘ One teenage boy and one adult…’. The convention on this site is to often refer to 18 and 19 year old Palestinians as boys or children.

        The sources do not say that there is no Hamas connection. Local Hamas leaders were responsible. The kidnapping was orchestrated by lower level operatives and financed by Hamas. Hamas as an organization was responsible for both financing and permitting its members to pursue individual actions even though the specifics were not planned by top leadership. The kidnapping was in line with the wishes of the leadership as shown by its statements of support.

      • Maghlawatan
        January 12, 2017, 10:22 am

        Don’t forget that non violent resistance in the form of BDS is also forbidden by Israel.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 12, 2017, 11:59 am

        Local Hamas leaders were responsible. The kidnapping was orchestrated by lower level operatives and financed by Hamas.

        it’s like talking to a brick wall. as if facts don’t even matter. as if wishing something to be true (oh please god, make it be hamas who kidnapped the boys) and repeating it over and over for years could in fact change reality and transform it into the way you want it to be perceived.

      • YoniFalic
        January 12, 2017, 1:42 pm

        @Annie, I have the same problem with a certain type of activist (sometimes Jewish), who refuses to accept that there are factions and different interests among Jews. The most common brick wall, with which I deal, is the activist, who refuses to accept that the Sov Jews who planned and perpetrated genocide in the USSR generally were not Zios and in certain circumstance were quite willing to shoot Zios.

        Of course, one might argue that the bloodthirstiness of Zio and Sov Jews has a common origin (probably in the anger Jews felt on the transformation from part of the Polish 2nd Estate to an angry disenfranchised former elite in the Czarist Empire). However that is an issue completely different from the alleged Zionism of Jewish Soviet leaders or officials, and sharing anger hardly means sharing politics.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 12, 2017, 3:34 pm

        edit, sorry — i was reading on the back pages and thought this was the rfk argument!

      • Jon66
        January 12, 2017, 2:09 pm

        Annie,

        Hamas operatives admitted that they were responsible for kidnapping and financed by the leadership. forgive my ignorance, but doesn’t that make Hamas responsible?

      • Annie Robbins
        January 12, 2017, 3:29 pm

        jon, did you miss this? http://mondoweiss.net/2017/01/soldiers-jerusalem-terrorism/comment-page-1/#comment-866752

        no, a confession under torture means nothing. this is why israel has a 99.7% conviction rate against palestinians. and they can’t even figure out who burns little babies when colonialist settlers commit atrocities. scroll up and read the entire comment at my link.

        why do you keep repeating the same allegation ad nauseam? isn’t once enough?

      • eljay
        January 12, 2017, 2:37 pm

        || Jon66: … Hamas operatives admitted that they were responsible for kidnapping and financed by the leadership. forgive my ignorance, but doesn’t that make Hamas responsible? ||

        According to the NYT article you linked to:
        – there is “no evidence that the top leaders of Hamas directed or had prior knowledge of the plot to abduct the three Israeli youths”;
        – the funding came from someone who “works for an association, Al-Nour, that the documents say belongs to Hamas” but “it was not clear from the documents whether the money had come from the association”; and
        – “new details on the abduction … depict the plot as more of a family affair, a local initiative organized and carried out by members of a clan in Hebron … and a few additional associates”.

        But let’s say that Hamas should be held accountable for the (seemingly) unauthorized and indirectly-funded actions of low-level operatives within its organization. Can we also say that the Government of Israel should be held accountable for the unauthorized assassinations and summary executions committed by its low-level IDF goons?

        If ‘no’, why not? If ‘yes’, how should Hamas and the GoI be held to account for the actions of their respective low-level operatives?

      • Maghlawatan
        January 12, 2017, 3:13 pm

        Jon

        I read in Haaretz at the time that the leader of the gang that killed the 3 Jews was from a very radical family with a very independent mindset and that Hamas had very little to do with it practically.

        Israel killed over 300 children shortly after as part of Operation Blood Libel.

      • oldgeezer
        January 12, 2017, 5:34 pm

        @Maghalawatan

        Operation Blood Libel almost guves credence to zionist complaints about the coverage of the slaughter. I know that you don’t intend that.

        The facts show thaf Israeli and zionist support for the killing held fast as the body count of innocents mounted. Even to the point that thy turned the sight of the killing into public entertainment complete with popcorn. Assuredly an insignificant number of peoplre participated in that immoral spectacle but the leaderahip, elected and otherwise, turned a blind eye to the evil in sderot.

        Tribal unity over morals. Murder over peace.

      • MHughes976
        January 12, 2017, 6:21 pm

        The Government of Israel should certainly be held responsible for the bad activities of its low level agents unless, at a minimum, it repudiates the action and disciplines the agents. Azaria is a case in point. A repudiation which sounds hypocritical will not do much good at the Day of Judgement.

      • talknic
        January 12, 2017, 6:29 pm

        @ Jon66 January 12, 2017, 10:17 am

        “Here is a recent headline from MW, “Thousands of Palestinians attend funerals for two teenage boys killed by Israeli occupation forces”

        Uh huh. Both teenagers (gender – boys)

        You teach ? Unbelievable!

        “One “boy” was 16 and the other “boy” was 19. So to be more accurate it should have said, ‘ One teenage boy and one adult…’ “

        It’s not more accurate. What age and gender was the adult?

        Furthermore, under Israeli Military Law a Palestinian is an adult at 16 years of age, while an Israeli reaches the age of majority at 18 yrs

      • Jon66
        January 12, 2017, 9:05 pm

        Talknic
        Gender would be ‘male’.

      • Mooser
        January 13, 2017, 11:22 am

        “You teach ? Unbelievable!”

        I have a hard time telling “66” and “s” apart, too. “Jon s” is the ‘teacher’. “Jon66” says he is a surgeon! (A very specialized surgeon, no doubt.)

        A “surgeon”? A Doctor? Who has great faith in the evidence obtained under torture? Gee, he’s all ready for the IDF Medic Brigade.

  16. Maghlawatan
    January 12, 2017, 3:15 am

    Everyone Israel kills is a terrorist. Everyone the Nazis killed was a terrorist.

    Meanwhile Israeli legislators want to ban anyone connected to BDS . It is getting to them.

  17. Tuyzentfloot
    January 12, 2017, 4:14 am

    In Belgium there was an interesting incident about this. Dyab Abou Jahjah, A lebanese immigrant and activist managed over the years to build up some media credibility and even recently got a column in a quality mainstream paper , De Standaard. But he got fired in the followup of this attack. First he claimed that the attack should not be called terrorist, which surprisingly was treated as a totally new but acceptable idea ( to some of the mainstream ). But when he claimed that the Palestinians should have the right to defend them with any means it deems necessary that went too far and he got fired. He defends his position here ( http://www.aboujahjah.org/articles-and-columns/ten-points-on-the-truck-attack-in-jerusalem ) .
    Karel Verhoeven of De Standaard defends his decision here ( http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20170109_02664460) in dutch. unfortunately . Verhoeven says they try to broaden the spectrum of opinion but this went too far. I think that by accepting Abou Jahjah they did broaden the spectrum – at least briefly and that is something I consider important.

    • Annie Robbins
      January 12, 2017, 4:02 pm

      thank you Tuyzentfloot, for bringing this to our attention. i agree completely with the words of Dyab Abou Jahjah.

  18. Kay24
    January 12, 2017, 9:08 am

    A thousand and one excuses to keep the occupation and land grabs going. Here is the king of the zionists, who prefers to control the Palestinians and face more resistance, rather than get peace for his people. The mindless hasbara will keep blaming the Palestinians for not wanting to be free from the occupation. How they try to change the facts.

    Netanyahu: Paris Peace Conference Is a Palestinian Fraud Under French Auspices
    Israeli prime minister stresses that Paris conference moves peace backward, adding that Israel is not bound by any decisions that will be made at the conference.
    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.764643

    • oldgeezer
      January 12, 2017, 5:38 pm

      @kay

      Well no one can be surprised at nutty’s position. Nutty doesn’t consider international law yo be binding. Nutty doesn’t consider any treaty to which Israel is a party yo be binding. Not even the HCJ in Israel considers international agreements to be binding except when convenient.

      Israel is a, by definition, a rogue state and probably one of the most least trustworthy states in the world as even their written word means nothing. Ma6be North Korea is worst but it is a photo finish

  19. Jackdaw
    January 12, 2017, 11:27 am

    ” “according to that theory, the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by a Palestinian organization is a legitimate military operation ”

    Maybe so, but Shalit’s treatment, in captivity, was a violation of the Geneva Convention, aka, War Crime.

    • Maghlawatan
      January 12, 2017, 11:47 am

      To hear a Zionist bring up the Geneva Conventions brings tears of laughter to my eyes.

      • Jackdaw
        January 12, 2017, 1:46 pm

        For an anti-Zionist to ignore Arab war crimes is low rank hypocrisy.

      • Maghlawatan
        January 12, 2017, 4:38 pm

        Jackdaw, Israel has recently argued that the GCs do not apply any longer to Gaza. To hear you whining about the laws of war is like listening to a prostitute moaning about chastity.

      • Keith
        January 12, 2017, 11:38 pm

        JACKDAW- “For an anti-Zionist to ignore Arab war crimes is low rank hypocrisy.”

        Peace, my brother! I join you in condemning the Arab Islamist terrorists who have brought so much suffering to Syria! And to the retrograde Saudis who are bombing the defenseless Yemenis with US support! And who can forget the unprovoked carnage in Libya caused by Islamist extremists backed by NATO! Like you, I condemn Israel’s support for these groups and their de facto alliance with the extremist Gulf Monarchies! Keep the faith, bro’.

      • Jackdaw
        January 13, 2017, 8:40 am

        @Keith

        Unless you’re the sort of person who sees Jews under his bed and night, most other sane, politically aware people, agree that Israel’s involvement in Libya, Syria and Yemen amounts to zero.

      • Keith
        January 13, 2017, 3:01 pm

        JACKDAW- “…most other sane, politically aware people, agree that Israel’s involvement in Libya, Syria and Yemen amounts to zero.”

        Let us begin by noting that I was responding to your comment regarding Arab war crimes and rank hypocrisy. I criticized the Islamist terrorists in Libya and Syria, and the Saudis in Yemen, along with their US/NATO supporters. Countries, I might add, that enjoy warm relations with Israel, the US in particular. I am under the impression that Israel supported the imperial intervention in Libya, the US/Saudi aggression against Yemen, and the efforts to overthrow Assad by these NATO backed terrorists. Am I wrong? Also, Israel has been directly involved in Syria by providing medical treatment for Nusra fighters who are then sent back into Syria. Also, Israel has bombed inside of Syria on multiple occasions. This, in addition to Israeli special ops forces inside Syria alongside NATO special ops forces. Finally, Israel provided significant financial support to the Islamist terrorists through the purchase of Syrian oil from them via the Turkish connection. You dispute any of this? No need for you to imagine Jews under my bed, I’m not that kind of guy.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 13, 2017, 4:47 pm

        israel just bombed a weapons/ammo depo in syria yesterday. lots of news about it.

      • Maghlawatan
        January 13, 2017, 5:57 pm

        Probably targetting Hizbollah, Annie. Big changes in Syria. Iran wants Shia contiguity from the Lebanon border to Damascus. And Hizbollah will have weapons that can do serious damage to Israel. Plus soldiers who can actually fight. Unlike Israel. Where soldiers just know how to kill civilians.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 13, 2017, 6:07 pm

        Probably targeting Hizbollah, Annie.

        hmm, not so sure about that. it was a syian army depot. also i read it was within an hour of a big AQ hit elsewhere in syria. however, it could be partly a case of knocking assad/hezbollah for squashing the opposition base in aleppo. retribution perhaps? but it wasn’t an ammo convoy.

    • oldgeezer
      January 12, 2017, 12:02 pm

      @jackdaw

      Lol a supporter and citizen of the state that murders and tortures chidren whines.

      Hamas hasn’t committed a tiny fraction of the crimes Israel perpetrates on a daily basis.

      • Jackdaw
        January 12, 2017, 1:47 pm

        @old

        When were you in Gaza ?

      • oldgeezer
        January 12, 2017, 2:09 pm

        @jackieboy

        Why is the sky blue?

    • talknic
      January 12, 2017, 5:49 pm

      @ Jackdaw

      How was Shalit’s treatment a war crime?

      • Talkback
        January 13, 2017, 4:17 am

        Because Shalit was treated the same way Israelis treat Palestinans, including children, in prolonged administrative detention.

      • talknic
        January 13, 2017, 7:51 am

        @ Talkback January 13, 2017, 4:17 am

        “Because Shalit was treated the same way Israelis treat Palestinans, including children, in prolonged administrative detention”

        Shalit was a POW. A captured soldier. Captured while actively serving in the military of an Occupying Power.

        https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protected-persons/prisoners-war

      • Jackdaw
        January 13, 2017, 8:42 am

        No Red Cross visits, no mail. Even the Nazis allowed as much for British and American POWs.

      • talknic
        January 13, 2017, 12:30 pm

        @ Jackdaw January 13, 2017, 8:42 am

        “No Red Cross visits, no mail”

        A) Are Red Cross visits mandatory? B) Hamas are not High Contacting Party!

        “Even the Nazis allowed as much for British and American POWs “

        As they slaughtered Jewish folk. Your praise is noted

      • Maghlawatan
        January 13, 2017, 3:26 pm

        I love it when Zionists use Nazis as the epitome of gentlemanly behaviour.
        They were so misunderstood, the Nazis.

  20. Jackdaw
    January 12, 2017, 11:31 am

    “…Israel officially announced them as ‘teens’, although more precisely one was 19 and two were 16”

    Okay. Nineteen and sixteen. Not teens. Okay.

    *f–king heartless idiot*

    • eljay
      January 12, 2017, 12:16 pm

      || Jackdaw: … *f–king heartless idiot* ||

      The Zionist cauldron calls the teacup “black”.

      • Jackdaw
        January 12, 2017, 1:49 pm

        I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a black teacup. Share a pic.

      • eljay
        January 12, 2017, 2:00 pm

        || Jackdaw: I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a black teacup. Share a pic. ||

        Google Images: black teacup

    • Jonathan Ofir
      January 13, 2017, 5:10 am

      Jackdaw, it would appear that my critical qualification, also attacked by Jon66, is a central point of debate. It would appear that this qualification serves as the grounds for your being able to call me a “*f-king heartless idiot”.

      That is really odd, because that qualification is really not that central in itself, and it doesn’t even refute that they COULD be called teens, whereas I was being more specific.

      Attacking such a relatively semantic qualification with such obscenity, seems to betray an inability to actually refute the more central claims of my writing, which I thus take as an indirect compliment. So, thank you for that.

      But now, to not be so pedantic, let me assure you, I get the vein of your emotional claim – that I am being pedantic and heartless because I focus upon such unimportant issues, in the face of such events which are so painful and deserve sensitivity (correct me if I have misunderstood your meaning). Well, let me first recommend Michael Lesher’s appraisal in Times of Israel (confirming my central claims regarding terror BTW), of how insensitive the mainstream media appears to be regarding the supposed attacker, Fadi Qunbar http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/crime-and-punishment-fadi-qunbar-elor-azaria-and-israels-occupation/ . I would not be surprised that you would consider this ridiculous – does a ‘terrorist’ even need to be considered?

      Indeed, Netanyahu did not even mention him as one of the four killed in the event. He is apparently not worthy of mentioning. Then as I mention, Netanyahu does not even mention that the “four young Israelis” (never mind that two are also Americans) are soldiers. That needs no mentioning either.

      Now you may call my pointing out of these seemingly unobtrusive facts to be ‘f-king heartless’ or whatever, but as Annie Robbins here keeps pointing out, facts matter. And Netanyahu’s omission of such facts is very, very tactical. It is made to garner emotional support for people to consider it ‘heartless’ not to condemn this ‘terror’. This narrative, nicely followed by much of MSM, provides us only two uncritical options – to either StandwithIsrael, or to be against it and on the side of the terrorist evildoers. That’s the essence of it.

      This narrative allows 95% of Jewish Israelis to support a massacre of over 500 children in Gaza, and they will not consider themselves ‘f-king heartless’. This is the narrative that allows 2/3 of the public to support Elor Azarya’s cold-blooded murder, and the figure goes up to 84% amongst military aged people of 18-24. And the prevailing motto of support will be that Azarya is everyone’s son. He’s a boy. But the Justice Minister Shaked will advocate for the genocide of the little Gazan children, the ‘little snakes’, and that’s not ‘f-king heartless’.

      • Eva Smagacz
        January 13, 2017, 6:58 am

        Jonathan,

        This inability to see Palestinians as fellow human beings is, for me, the most scary aspect of Jewish-Israeli racism.
        Not to mention that it is another, and essential, step that brings the majority of Israelis towards possible genocidal actions against natives. (see Stanton’s Ten Stages to Genocide).

        The venom with which Zionist Jews treat Palestinians is comparable to treatment of Jews in Europe of old.

      • Maghlawatan
        January 13, 2017, 8:21 am

        I agree, Eva. Israelis behave like pariahs. It is as if they accept the logic of the Nazis. And think of the Palestinians as the Nazis thought of them. It is like the bottom of the Indian caste system.

      • Jackdaw
        January 13, 2017, 9:30 am

        @Jonathan

        “This narrative allows 95% of Jewish Israelis to support a massacre of over 500 children in Gaza, and they will not consider themselves ‘f-king heartless’ ”

        No. The 95% of Jewish Israelis supported a military operation that would stop Hamas from rocketing Israel. Hamas refused a brokered ceasefire that would have immediately stopped the collateral deaths of Gazan civilians.

        Hamas started the latest war by sanctioning the kidnap/murder of the three teens. Hamas began rocketing Israeli civilian targets and hundreds of Gazan civilians died while Hamas dithered over whether to agree to a ceasefire. Finally, after hundreds more civilians died, Hamas relented and accepted the very same ceasefire that they’d first been offered.

        “This is the narrative that allows 2/3 of the public to support Elor Azarya’s cold-blooded murder ”

        I question your findings.
        I condemn Elor on the video evidence alone. He was rightly convicted, yet, I would hope that he receives a lenient prison sentence. Does that mean I support Elor? That I’m part of your ‘ 2/3’ of Israelis?

        As for you being ‘f-cking heartless’, you might consider what Dostoyevsky said in his novel, Brothers Karamazov.
        The quote was, “The more I love humanity in general the less I love man in particular.”
        ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

      • catalan
        January 13, 2017, 9:36 am

        “Attacking such a relatively semantic qualification with such obscenity” – Jon.
        It sounds like this hurt your feelings. It really shouldn’t. One of the most common phrases here is “ziopoop” – for any view that presents the Israeli side. Just yesterday someone proposed that Obama should be “hanged” for his “crimes”, without anyone objecting. It’s all par for the course, as they say.

      • Maghlawatan
        January 13, 2017, 10:12 am
      • YoniFalic
        January 13, 2017, 11:48 am

        I must disagree with Eva Smagacz. In Commonwealth Poland Jews were untitled members of the 2nd Estate (nobility). If anything, Jews had difficulty in treating the peasants as human beings. A few Jewish scholars were critical of such attitudes and warned that Jewish behavior in the Ukraine would lead to disaster. (Certainly Jewish arendar extreme exploitation contributed to the Chmielnicki Rebellion.) To be fair, I am not sure titled Catholic and Muslim members of the 2nd Estate were much better than Jews in that time period, but one must note that the Catholic and Muslim elites eventually realized that they would have to make common cause with the peasantry and become one nation if Poland were ever to be free of foreign rule.

      • Mooser
        January 13, 2017, 11:59 am

        “Just yesterday someone proposed that Obama should be “hanged” for his “crimes”, without anyone objecting.”

        No, I believe I made a reply with a disparaging “Spinal Tap” reference (“goes to eleven”) which brought him up short.

      • oldgeezer
        January 13, 2017, 12:37 pm

        @jackdaw

        “Hamas started the latest war by sanctioning the kidnap/murder of the three teens. Hamas began rocketing Israeli civilian targets a – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2017/01/soldiers-jerusalem-terrorism/#comment-174687

        More fiction from jackdoh

        Even security officials concede Hamas was abiding by the previously negotiated ceasefire and had been for a couple of years.

        The rogue state of Israel bombed Gaza killing several Palestinians. Hamas responded to this cold blooded murder with rockets.

        Facts acknowledged by Israeli officials but conveniently left out of your imagined perpetual victimhood narrative.

        Hamas would be naive to agree to a ceasefire it wasn’t involved in negotiating given the number of times Israel violated other ceasefires. Neither Israel nor zionists can be trusted. Even written treaties are violated on a whim by them.

        http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/

      • talknic
        January 14, 2017, 7:57 pm

        @ catalan January 13, 2017, 9:36 am

        “One of the most common phrases here is “ziopoop” – for any view that presents the Israeli side”

        Ziopoop is deserved for the lies, propaganda, bullsh*t you and your kind propagate. Honesty on the other hand, is in short supply amongst you.

  21. mcohen1
    January 13, 2017, 3:42 am

    it kind of surprises me that those claiming to stand for human rights could be so callous towards the death of four teens – even if they were occupation soldiers. Do these people have a heart at all?

    • eljay
      January 13, 2017, 8:50 am

      || mcohen1: it kind of surprises me that those claiming to stand for human rights could be so callous towards the death of four teens – even if they were occupation soldiers. Do these people have a heart at all? ||

      There is no human right to engage in or support military occupation and colonialism.

      Those four soldiers shouldn’t have died. They should have been:
      – in Israel, refusing to help it occupy and colonize territory outside of its / Partition borders; or
      – in prison awaiting trial for their roles in helping Israel occupy and colonize territory outside of its / Partition borders.

    • Mooser
      January 13, 2017, 11:49 am

      How our tribe doth increase! We have a “mcohen” and now “mcohen1” has joined us.

    • talknic
      January 13, 2017, 12:35 pm

      @ mcohen1 January 13, 2017, 3:42 am

      “it kind of surprises me that those claiming to stand for human rights could be so callous towards the death of four teens – even if they were occupation soldiers. Do these people have a heart at all?”

      Go bitch to the Zionist Federation and Israeli Govt who covet non-Israeli territory and who encourage, assist and finance Israelis to be illegal settlers

  22. mcohen1
    January 13, 2017, 3:47 am

    Occupation soldiers are human beings too with feelings, and hopes and dreams.
    So were German Soldiers and SS officers…..I mourn their deaths too, as tragedies. Despite being of Polish Jewish heritage and having my family in Krakow during the war.
    A Polish Jew did not have some kind of natural right to murder German Soldiers. A German Soldier was a person no less than my family members were.
    I would happily attend a commemoration of fallen German Soldiers in Germany. They were just doing what they believed was their duty.

    • YoniFalic
      January 13, 2017, 10:31 am

      I doubt mcohen1 would attend such a ceremony if German Nazis still ruled Germany and occasionally outed and executed a secret Jew.

      Racist Jewish invaders (including my mass murdering grandfather) drove out most of the native population of Palestine in 47-8 and try to finish the genocide right before our eyes.

      No one should be surprised that the number of those who sympathize with IDF soldiers, racist Zio invader Jews, or racist Jews in general is decreasing rapidly throughout the world.

      I have no sympathy whatsoever, and I used to be an IDF soldier. In some ways they are lucky. Every day I remember the unarmed men, women, and children I murdered under orders during Cast Lead.

  23. mcohen1
    January 13, 2017, 3:49 am

    Obviously, I pity the truck driver too, driven by desperation to perform this act

    • Jackdaw
      January 13, 2017, 9:46 am

      @mcohen1

      And the truck driver who murdered 80 people, many Arab, in Nice?
      The sadistic ISIL murders who gratuitously tortured and murdered 100 young concert goers in Paris?

      If Jonathan is ‘f-cking heartless’, than you’re out of your f-ucking mind, dangerously naive, or both. A ‘moral narcissist’.

      • Mooser
        January 13, 2017, 1:29 pm

        “A ‘moral narcissist’.”

        Not a problem either Zionism, or for that matter, Judaism suffers from.
        It’s our complete absence of ‘moral narcissism’ which allows obviously interested Zionists to maintain the moral ascendancy of objective observers.

      • MHughes976
        January 13, 2017, 5:51 pm

        The question whether the Jerusalem attack is to be condemned morally by use of the term ‘terrorism’, understood as a form of human rights violation, is not to be determined by whether those killed arouse human sympathy or even whether they deserve it. Thoroughly dislikable people have rights too. On the other hand theories of just or even permissible war all imply – more shockingly than people think – that in some circumstances perfectly nice and normal people forfeit their right to life. Then the question is determining what those circumstances are. The lawyers have struggled to find a consensus but have, I think, not succeeded. I don’t withhold sympathy from the people killed in the Jerusalem attack but that is not enough to decide against Jonathan Os argument. One may feel sorry for the suffering of ‘terrorists’ who were driven to desperation by terrible experiences because suffering deserves sympathy even in that case, but their suffering does not prove that they were in the right.

    • Mooser
      January 13, 2017, 2:53 pm

      There you go, “mcohen1”! You have had your comment answered by a Zionist, who finds it lacking. It’s hard to get past a Zionist. They recognize anti-Zionist sentiments immediately.

      • Jackdaw
        January 14, 2017, 6:31 am

        @Mooser

        O.C.D. code monkey.

      • Mooser
        January 14, 2017, 12:31 pm

        “O.C.D. code monkey.”

        @ “Jackdaw”: E.L.O. ‘Don’t Bring Me Down.’

  24. Ossinev
    January 13, 2017, 1:33 pm

    @Jon66

    “The convention on this site is to often refer to 18 and 19 year old Palestinians as boys or children”

    “The soldiers of the IDF, our children, maintain high ethical values while courageously fighting against bloodthirsty murderers under difficult operational conditions” quote unqoute by guess who = all IDF personnel be they 18 or 40 are classified as “children” by Zioland`s current Gauleiter.

    Pot/kettle springs to mind.

  25. mcohen.
    January 15, 2017, 4:00 pm

    The consequences of the attack in jerusalem has been already felt and like a skipping stone will continue to be as the end game approaches.p

    • Annie Robbins
      January 15, 2017, 4:24 pm

      the end game?

    • amigo
      January 15, 2017, 4:33 pm

      “The consequences of the attack in jerusalem has been already felt and like a skipping stone will continue to be as the end game approaches.” cohen

      Would that be the Historic homeland of the Jews—Arab frei , Judenstaat.

    • Mooser
      January 15, 2017, 5:28 pm

      “The consequences of the attack in jerusalem has been already felt and like a skipping stone will continue to be as the end game approaches.p”

      So true, “mcohen”, so true. Every day Israelis are waking up to the fact that the Zionist Government cannot protect them, and cannot deliver on its promises. And Jews outside of Israel are waking up to the abomination that Israel is. The “end game” is, as you say, on the way.

  26. Ossinev
    January 15, 2017, 5:53 pm

    @mcohen1
    “I would happily attend a commemoration of fallen German Soldiers in Germany. They were just doing what they believed was their duty”

    Interesting observation. How far up the ranks does this empathy/sympathy go for you. Does it apply equally to the soldiers /guards in the various Nazi extermination camps?Does it apply to those who appeared at the Nuremberg trials? Does it apply to those who have been subsequently hunted down tried and sentenced by Israeli Nazi hunters?

    The “they were just doing their duty” meme presumably can be ascribed to them as it appears to have been recently to the IDF medic Azaria by the majority of the Israeli population and Israeli politicians across the spectrum including what purports to be the “centre” and the “left”.

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