Trump is putting the crunch on liberal Zionism

US Politics
on 124 Comments

Were you as impressed as I was by Roger Cohen’s column in the New York Times, last weekend: “The One State Two State Blues“? Cohen virtually thanked Donald Trump for ending the illusion that there will ever be a Palestinian state.

The two-state idea has become a fantasy divorced from the reality of Israel’s half-century occupation of the West Bank. No basis exists today for believing it’s achievable. American adherence to that goal has become an exercise in mental laziness allowing leaders to do their worst behind the “peace process” fig leaf.

So Trump’s trashing of two-state doctrinal orthodoxy — “I’m looking at two-state and one-state and I like the one that both parties like” — at least had the merit of constituting a break with a sham. (I say this with great reluctance as a longtime two-state advocate.) It places Israel and Netanyahu before the choice they face.

As Netanyahu knows, the only “one state” that Palestinians are going to “like” — let alone accept — is one in which they are full and equal citizens who get to vote. Demographics dictate that this, in turn, will spell the end of the Jewish state — unless Israel wants to be an undemocratic pariah state ruling over a vast disenfranchised Palestinian population.

The piece was the more remarkable because a couple of years ago Cohen wrote a book celebrating Israel as the just answer to the Jewish problem in Europe. Today he is just too tired of Israel’s intransigence to pipe that melody.

Ilene Cohen made a similar progression years ago: having visited the occupation, she acknowledged that Israel had defeated the two-state solution; and we have entered the struggle for equal rights. 1 State, 1 Person, 1 vote.

It seems inevitable that more and more liberal American Zionists will have this realization in weeks and months to come. Slowly but surely they will give up the dream of a Jewish state that they don’t want to live in themselves; because their dream did not entail apartheid, which is impossible to deny. And as they abandon their love for Israel, many will come out for Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions, or BDS, as the best way to pressure Israel to give everyone equal rights.

Liberal Zionism has never been under so much pressure as it is in the Trump era. For two reasons: Trump has rendered the death of the two-state solution a naked reality that is no longer deniable. And liberals who are vocally resisting Trump must affirm values that are inconsistent with Israel as it has turned out.

Under President Obama, liberal Zionists could say that we were about to get a two-state solution, any day or century now, if only Obama would put pressure on Israel; and Mr President, we are going to do our best to protect you against AIPAC; oh sorry, they just cut you off at the knees! Liberal Zionists have now lost the cover for that complicated political dance step. Donald Trump will give Israel anything it wants, and Israel is taking further steps to solidify its colonization of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

When Trump said he could support one-state or two states last week, there was a collective gasp from liberal Zionists. Peace Now said the statement was “terrifying,” Jane Eisner of the Forward said it was “astonishing” for those who support a “democratic” “Jewish state.” But what can the liberal Zionists do to fight Trump and Netanyahu, when they were unsuccessful in achieving an ethnic partition of the land during far more liberal regimes, for 70 years now? Roger Cohen and Peter Beinart are at least conscious of the lived-reality for Palestinians.

(And as for Palestinians and Arab-Americans– not that they count as full citizens in the U.S. discourse– many welcomed the Trump statement, as an end to doublespeak, and an exposure of the fecklessness of the peace process, or, per Rashid Khalidi, an opportunity to imagine several possible just outcomes.)

Which brings us to the second factor for the liberal Zionist crisis. Liberal Jews are now among the leaders of the political/cultural resistance to Donald Trump. Every time I turn on the radio or television I see empowered Jews warning about Trump’s danger to democracy. Many of them are Zionists– notably Leon Botstein, Brian Lehrer, Dahlia Lithwick, Wolf Blitzer, and Jeffrey Rosen, the constitutional scholar who has written that Zionism was the best thing that happened to Palestinians in the early 20th century.

These two positions, resisting Trump while supporting Jewish nationalism in Israel, are today grossly inconsistent. Just consider J Street’s righteous opposition to Trump’s temporary ban on refugees here–

Tens of 1000s of US Jews have declared America must keep our doors open to refugees. Now we must be a powerful voice

even as it supports an ethnocracy over there, which has prevented hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees from returning for decades.

American nationalists are right to mock the contradiction between the two positions, as white supremacist Richard Spencer did in an encounter with a Texas rabbi. While left-wing Jews are increasingly making the point — as Suzanne Schneider does at the Forward, Yoav Litvin does at our site, and Brant Rosen did in this excellent blogpost, that Zionism has worked closely with anti-Semitic nationalists before.

Note well that Schneider’s piece appeared in the Forward, offering a paean to Jewish life in exile, which Zionists usually disdain:

Jewish life flourishes in pluralistic societies within which difference is not a “problem” to be resolved, but a fact to be celebrated. The alliance of right-wing Zionists and the alt-right should not be viewed as an abnormality, but the meeting of quite compatible outlooks that assert — each in their own way—that the world will only be secure once we all retreat to our various plots of ancestral land. Nationalist thinking of this sort wrought more than its fair share of damage during the twentieth century

 

J Street is holding its conference this coming weekend, and a lot of different viewpoints will be gathered under one roof. Roger Cohen will be a speaker; so will rightwing Zionist Yair Rosenberg, who has mocked J Street. There are no Jewish anti-Zionists speaking, but the conference will hear from the leader of Israel’s Joint List in the Knesset, Palestinian leader Ayman Odeh, who I expect will be a rock star for a liberal audience energized by Trump.

Liberal Zionists have had it both ways for too long: supporting a “Jewish state” that they also claim is a “democracy.” Trump has marked the end of that farce. Now they must give up a cherished dream; the liberal Zionists who want to shape the future will have to build coalitions with Palestinians and anti-Zionists.

From the Palestinian and anti-Zionist standpoint, what we are seeing is what activist and writer Sarah Schulman told us would happen five years ago: As you go from a vanguard movement to a broad-based movement, you must give up some of your litmus tests, egotism, and ideological purity, in the name of change.

Everyone, be nice.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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124 Responses

  1. AddictionMyth
    February 21, 2017, 9:52 am

    Very exciting! I’m kveltzing. (Sorry, is that a word?)

    • Mooser
      February 21, 2017, 11:15 am

      ” (Sorry, is that a word?)”

      It is now! And to make it official, italicize it: kveltzing!

      • Mooser
        February 21, 2017, 11:48 am

        “Your search – kveltzing – did not match any documents.”

        Whoa. Give Google a week or two to ‘trawl’ this comment thread, and there kveltzing will be! Wouldn’t be the first time a word has gone from here to ubiquity..

      • Citizen
        February 21, 2017, 4:22 pm

        Oy gevalt!

      • broadside
        February 21, 2017, 7:21 pm

        If I’m not mistaken, it was George HW Bush who first used the word “disconnect” as a noun. Picked up quicker than D-fense. Then his son started calling everyone and everybody (formerly known as The American People) “folks,” Barack said, “I like the sound of that,” and folks it’s been ever since.

      • talknic
        February 21, 2017, 7:58 pm

        Kveltyzing kveltyzing kveltyzing kveltyzing
        Who’s the leader of the club that’s made for you and me …

      • talknic
        February 21, 2017, 8:03 pm

        Kveltzing Matilda, Kveltzing Matilda,
        you’ll come a Kveltzing Matilda with me
        and he sang as watched and waited til the billy roiled
        you’ll come a Kveltzing Matilda with me
        Kveltzing Matilda, Kveltzing Matilda,
        you’ll come a Kveltzing Matilda with me

      • talknic
        February 22, 2017, 12:40 am

        “Say, what’s all the fuss about kveltzing?”

        “What is kveltzing?”

        “No. What isn’t kveltzing, Who is kveltsing What is on second!”

        “So who was singing Zveltzing Matilda?”

        “No. That was talknic doing his bit to immortalize kveltzing. Who is kveltzing and What, who isn’t kveltzing, is on second!”

        “That’s not how you spell immoralize?”

        “It’s in italics!”

      • pabelmont
        February 22, 2017, 7:37 am

        Qvelling and waltzing at the same time. What happiness!

      • talknic
        February 22, 2017, 9:24 am

        @ February 21, 2017, 11:48 am

        “Your search – kveltzing – did not match any documents.”

        Whoa. Give Google a week or two…”

        @ February 22, 2017, 9:24 am — https://www.google.com.au/search?q=kveltyzing

        Less than a day. Now that IS something to be kveltzing about

        Might as well add kveltzing to your spell checker right now because kveltzing has arrived

      • Mooser
        February 22, 2017, 11:37 am

        kveltzing has arrived”

        Just wait til Google stops offering alternate spellings. That’s a big thrill.

      • Mooser
        February 22, 2017, 11:51 am

        We will have to ask “RoHa” but I’m pretty sure kveltzing Matilda is illegal in Australia.

      • Mooser
        February 22, 2017, 12:09 pm

        “Qvelling and waltzing at the same time. What happiness!”

        Sure, maybe for you, but how does the kangaroo feel about it? I’ve heard it gets their billy roiled.

      • talknic
        February 22, 2017, 7:22 pm

        Mooser February 22, 2017, 12:09 pm
        ” … how does the kangaroo feel about it? I’ve heard it gets their billy roiled.”

        Dancing in 3/4 on one foot and 5/4 on the other can do that. Especially if your kveltzing partner keeps stepping on your tail

    • JLewisDickerson
      February 21, 2017, 11:21 am

      Did you mean:
      kletzing
      kuvelting
      waltzing
      voltzing

      No results containing all your search terms were found.

      Your search – kveltzing – did not match any documents.

    • John O
      February 21, 2017, 12:25 pm

      Is that kvetching whilst dancing a waltz?

      • talknic
        February 22, 2017, 10:13 am

        No. That’s on second, walt’s on third, who’s on first

  2. eljay
    February 21, 2017, 10:07 am

    As Netanyahu knows, the only “one state” that Palestinians are going to “like” — let alone accept — is one in which they are full and equal citizens who get to vote. Demographics dictate that this, in turn, will spell the end of the Jewish state — unless Israel wants to be an undemocratic pariah state ruling over a vast disenfranchised Palestinian population.

    So…to preserve Israel as a “Jewish and democratic” state, the “threatening demographic” of non-Jewish Israelis must be kept to a safe minimum. Mr. Cohen effectively drives home the point that “Jewish State” is a religion-supremacist construct.

    • Citizen
      February 21, 2017, 4:29 pm

      According to some leading Israeli lights, the Palestinians have a perfectly good home to go to–Jordan.

    • pabelmont
      February 22, 2017, 7:42 am

      Right. One is wrong to think that any of this constitutes an ultimatum to Israel to do anything good. Au contraire! Best bets? Continue apartheid forever, while “negotiating”. another 50 years anybody? And, at the same time, encourage Palestinians to leave. How many generations of Palestinians will remember what “sumud” means? for example, the very large number of Palestinian refugees who live in Gaza, together with all other (pre-48) Gazans, may have to “leave willingly” because of the loss of potable water. How they’ll leave through the Israeli siege I don’t know. By death? Or otherwise?

  3. AddictionMyth
    February 21, 2017, 10:51 am

    I actually hope Ellison wins the DNC chair, even though he is anti-BDS. Why? Because first of all it would be a huge in-your-face to Trump (since he is Muslim) and secondly because I think that the country is starting to realize the hypocrisy of BDS bans (you can just as easily ban Israel) so they will be rescinded. This will accelerate progress towards one-state will full and equal rights for all.

    Also – thanks Mondoweiss for not banning me (yet). I’ve been banned just about everywhere else – ironic as I am a staunch free speech defender in an age when it is under fierce attack – and the targets are the same ones who banned me (e.g. Reason and Alternet and probably soon The Atlantic)! Sorry to go on but I don’t know how much time I have left….

  4. Ossinev
    February 21, 2017, 11:06 am

    Perhaps Yirai Fleshler the “spokeperson” for the Hebron settlers should be invited to the J Street conference and asked to outline the five dynamic alternatives to the 2SS (RIP) which he outlined in the recent NYT Op Ed . That would give ” Liberal ” Americans a golden opportunity to experience up close and personal the virtues of their seriously democratic and moral fellow Zionists in the Light unto the Nations. Of the five I especially liked Number 3:
    3.” More bantustans. Seven Arab population centers in the West Bank and Gaza would be called “emirates.”

    I liked it because of the “emirates” bit – it is such a cute suggestion . Trash the old worn “authority” tag and now for something completely different. All good Monty Python out of the box thinking.

  5. John O
    February 21, 2017, 11:11 am

    I’m a bit more pessimistic about how liberal Zionists will react. As we are seeing with Trump supporters, and here in the UK with Brexit supporters, it’s very very difficult to admit to yourself that you’ve been conned/made a fool of, let alone express that admission in public.

  6. JLewisDickerson
    February 21, 2017, 11:19 am

    RE: “From the Palestinian and anti-Zionist standpoint, what we are seeing is what activist and writer Sarah Schulman told us would happen five years ago: As you go from a vanguard movement to a broad-based movement, you must give up some of your litmus tests, egotism, and ideological purity, in the name of change. Everyone, be nice.” ~ Weiss

    Narcissism of small differences
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences

    [EXCERPT] The narcissism of small differences (German: der Narzissmus der kleinen Differenzen) is the thesis that it is precisely communities with adjoining territories and close relationships that engage in constant feuds and mutual ridicule because of hypersensitivity to details of differentiation.[1] The term was coined by Sigmund Freud in 1917, based on the earlier work of British anthropologist Ernest Crawley. In language differing only slightly from current psychoanalytic terminology, Crawley declared that each individual is separated from others by a taboo of personal isolation, a narcissism of minor differences.[2]

    • Usage
    The term appeared in Civilization and Its Discontents (1929–30) in relation to the application of the inborn aggression in man to ethnic (and other) conflicts, a process still considered by Freud, at that point, as a convenient and relatively harmless satisfaction of the inclination to aggression.[3] For Lacanians, the concept clearly related to the sphere of the Imaginary: the narcissism of small differences, which situates envy as the decisive element in issues that involve narcissistic image.[4] American psychiatrist Glen O. Gabbard has suggested that Freud’s narcissism of small differences provides a framework to understand that in a loving relationship, there can be a need to find, and even exaggerate, differences in order to preserve a feeling of separateness and self.[5]

    In terms of postmodernity, consumer culture has been seen as predicated on the narcissism of small differences to achieve a superficial sense of one’s own uniqueness, an ersatz sense of otherness which is only a mask for an underlying uniformity and sameness.[6] . . .

    P.S. ALSO SEE:
    Sigmund Freud: Narcissism of Small Differences & Judging Othershttp://psychologyorphilosophy.blogspot.com/2012/06/sigmund-freud-narcissism-of-small.html

    • JLewisDickerson
      February 21, 2017, 11:28 am

      P.P.S.
      Collective narcissism
      From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_narcissism

      [EXCERPT] Collective narcissism (or group narcissism) is a type of narcissism where an individual has an inflated self-love of his or her own ingroup, where an “ingroup” is a group in which an individual is personally involved.[1] While the classic definition of narcissism focuses on the individual, collective narcissism asserts that one can have a similar excessively high opinion of a group, and that a group can function as a narcissistic entity.[1] Collective narcissism is related to ethnocentrism; however, ethnocentrism primarily focuses on self-centeredness at an ethnic or cultural level, while collective narcissism is extended to any type of ingroup, beyond just cultures and ethnicities.[1][2] Some theorists believe group-level narcissism to be an extension of individual narcissism, though others believe the two to be independent of each other. . .

      • Boomer
        February 21, 2017, 1:35 pm

        “Collective narcissism.” Interesting. Inevitable to some degree, no doubt, but the degree matters.

      • JLewisDickerson
        February 21, 2017, 6:42 pm

        RE: “Collective narcissism.” Interesting. Inevitable to some degree, no doubt, but the degree matters. ~ Boomer

        MY REPLY: Yes, there is almost always the matter of “degree”! There is no escaping it. “Too much of a good thing”, for instance.

      • JLewisDickerson
        February 21, 2017, 7:03 pm

        P.S. RE: “Too much of a good thing”, for instance. ~ me (above)

        ELUCIDATION: Take a gander at the interior design in that photo of Trump’s “deluxe apartment in the sky”. It’s like bingeing on cotton candy!

    • Citizen
      February 21, 2017, 4:39 pm

      A good portion of US mainstream advertising seems based on the postmodern version of said narcissism of small differences; starts in grade school these days, or before–by the parents who make sure their oblivious little tiny kid has the latest hot toys, etc. It’s just a version of the old Keeping Up With The Joneses, living through your kid, etc. US economy depends on unnecessary consumerism.

      • JLewisDickerson
        February 21, 2017, 6:50 pm

        RE: “A good portion of US mainstream advertising seems based on the postmodern version of said narcissism of small differences . . .” ~ Citizen

        MY REPLY: Yes, one of the many errors of “our (capitalistic) ways” ! ! !

  7. Sibiriak
    February 21, 2017, 11:49 am

    As Netanyahu knows, the only “one state” that Palestinians are going to “like” — let alone accept …

    —————–

    Netanyahu doesn’t give a rat’s ass what the Palestinians might “like” or accept. The fraudulent “peace process” is over. Israel will act unilaterally, as it always has.

    There will be no “one state” offer of any sort to the Palestinians.
    ——————-

    “One state is not an option,” said Ghassan Khatib, a Palestinian political scientist at Birzeit University in the West Bank, noting that Israel, which was established to give Jews self-determination, would never give all Palestinians the vote. “We are talking two states or no solution, a continuation of the status quo,” he said.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/16/world/middleeast/israel-palestinians-two-state-solution.html

    ———————–

    Two states is out. That leaves ” no solution.” But not necessarily the “status quo.”

    … Jewish Home party leader Bennett laid out his vision for the future of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which includes annexing some 60 percent of the West Bank, and offering Israeli citizenship to the Palestinians living there and autonomy to the remaining residents of the territories.

    “I am very pleased to see that gradually Prime Minister Netanyahu is adopting this approach.

    * * * *
    […] Bennett said that rejecting Palestinian statehood did not necessarily mean applying Israeli sovereignty over the entire West Bank. [Israeli sovereignty over Gaza is, of course, completely out of the question.–Sibiriak]

    “There are some who would present it as either a Palestinian state or a one-state solution; I don’t buy that,” Bennett said.

    “My plan is something between those. I don’t think we should apply rule over two million Palestinians. I have no desire to govern them.”

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/bennett-says-netanyahu-seems-to-be-dropping-2-state-solution/

  8. Mooser
    February 21, 2017, 12:17 pm

    Oh, shit. Trump is speaking out on antisemitism!

    So out of all the bigotry driven acts in the US, Trump is speaking out about antisemitic incidents?
    Could somebody please, please, please ask him not to do us any favors?

    • broadside
      February 21, 2017, 1:34 pm

      Yes, Trump is speaking out on anti-semitism — at a visit to the National Museum of African American History and Culture. No story on that visit in the NY Times, just one on his speaking out — and an earlier one on an Ivanka Trump tweet calling for tolerance after threats to Jewish centers.

      Meanwhile, buried elsewhere in the Times: the 18-month prison sentence given an Israeli medic for executing a disabled Palestinian prisoner. Manslaughter charge. What did the killer medic think would happen when firing a rifle into a human’s brain? If I’m not mistaken, teenaged Palestinian rock throwers, throwing rocks at occupation soldiers — something absolutely permissible under international law — get ten years.

      Who controls the narrative again? I keep forgetting.

      • broadside
        February 21, 2017, 5:17 pm

        But wait! That’s not all!!

        Out of curiosity, I went back to the article to see if they’d added to it. Anything about the National Museum of African American History and Culture. They hadn’t. But they’d added to the article, all right. Boy, had they. Not nearly enough Trump flesh first go round.

        Here are but some of the add-ons, best as I recall:

        “The statement came after weeks in which the leaders of major Jewish organizations complained privately to members of Mr. Trump’s inner circle, including his son-in-law Jared Kushner, about the president’s seeming unwillingness to speak out forcefully against anti-Semitic incidents. His failure to do so stoked concern among some Jewish leaders that Mr. Trump, whose presidential campaign drew the support of racist and anti-Semitic groups including the Ku Klux Klan, was at best willing to stay silent about such actions and at worst quietly condoning them.”

        But as we all know, there’s just no satisfying some people — and they’re quoted first in the NY Times.

        “The president’s sudden acknowledgment of anti-Semitism is a Band-Aid on the cancer of anti-Semitism that has infected his own administration,” said Steven Goldstein, the executive director of the Anne Frank Center for Mutual Respect. “When President Trump responds to anti-Semitism proactively and in real time, and without pleas and pressure, that’s when we’ll be able to say this president has turned a corner. This is not that moment.”

        ‘The White House was criticized by Jewish groups last month when it issued a statement marking International Holocaust Remembrance Day that did not mention the six million Jews who perished, instead including a general mention of “the depravity and horror inflicted on innocent people by Nazi terror” and “those who died.”‘

        Really? I hadn’t heard about that.

        “We appreciate that President Trump spoke directly to this matter,” said Nathan J. Diament, the executive director for public policy at the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. “The words of a president of the United States carry great weight, and it is important that Mr. Trump addressed the American Jewish community and all our fellow Americans at this time.”

        Well, at least it’s a new name.

        “Despite the questions that arose during his campaign, Mr. Trump has never proactively delivered a statement condemning anti-Semitism.”

        Die, Scum, die!

        Ah, the dissenting voice:

        WH press Sec Sean Spicer: “It’s ironic that, no matter how many times he talks about this, that it’s never good enough,” he said.

        Lot of us have noticed that, Sean.

        Meanwhile, outside the museum several blacks were seen shaking their heads. Well, they got their museum.

      • Citizen
        February 21, 2017, 5:37 pm

        On Fox News show, The Five, the usual panel discussed Trump’s speech against anti-Semitism following his visit to the Museum for Black history, and on bigotry generally, and they also discussed Ivanka’s conversion re the claims Trump is an anti-semite. They all thought his speech against anti-semitism was a good thing; none made note he uncharacteristically blatantly read very carefully from a written script he placed on the podium. Two of the 3 men briefly added that sometimes claims of hate crimes are hoaxes and in any claimed case, the Media fans the flames.
        0 mention of the Israeli medic murdered who got a slap on the wrist, one any Palestinian child could get for throwing a stone.

        They also put up the relatively old quote by the Democratic candidate to lead the party, Ellison, the one that ambiguously (to the naive) said something was really wrong when 7 million people were dictating the foreign policy of 300+ million Americans, who would eventually balk at this absurdity. BUT nobody on the panel commented at all about the quote!

      • Misterioso
        February 22, 2017, 3:45 pm

        https://wpo.st/JdHd2

        Things got VERY ugly on CNN last night – from The Washington Post.

  9. Maghlawatan
    February 21, 2017, 12:18 pm

    The peace process was a crutch against which the Liberal Zionist could lean.
    and now it’s gone.
    And Judaism looks very different.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/16/world/middleeast/israel-palestinians-two-state-solution.html

    “The Israeli idea of Palestinian statehood never included all of the attributes of sovereignty. Israelis are increasingly fearful of the prospect of a Palestinian state at their doorstep. Without the West Bank Israel is just 9 miles wide at its narrowest point. There is also the emotional issue for those who identify the West Bank as the heart of the biblical Jewish homeland promised by God. Israel has also invested heavily in roads and infrastructure connecting and servicing the West Bank settlements, home now to 400,000 people . One state is impossible for Israel. Demographically and economically, absorbing millions of comparatively poor Palestinians would destroy it”

    Palestinians do not exist in the Zionist imagination.

    Kenny Rogers described the issue a few decades ago

  10. broadside
    February 21, 2017, 1:16 pm

    “J Street is holding its conference this coming weekend… There are no Jewish anti-Zionists speaking.”

    So impressed.

    See Leslie Nielsen, in Airplane: “I just want to tell you both: good luck. We’re counting on you.”

    “I just want to tell you both: good luck. We’re counting on you.”

    “I just want to tell you both: good luck. We’re counting on you.”

    “I just want to tell you both: good luck. We’re counting on you.”

  11. Kathleen
    February 21, 2017, 2:40 pm

    “When Trump said he could support one-state or two states last week, there was a collective gasp from liberal Zionists.”

    I was taken with BB’s response to Trump’s “I want what the two sides agree on” Fine with me said Trump. I had never seen BB so shaken in an odd sort of way. He knew the myth that he had continually cultivated in a twisted way that a two state solution was still possible had been Trumped. BB’s face and nervous laugh gave him away.

    • Maghlawatan
      February 22, 2017, 12:33 am

      The political framework that allowed Israel to pretend it was interested in peace has slipped away. Zionism is a psychological state in which Jews ignore Palestinians. People like Roger Cohen understand what is happening . So do high ranking Israelis like the gatekeepers. But down at the level of Yossi Israeli nobody sees anything.

    • Pixel
      February 22, 2017, 4:55 pm

      @Kathleen

      Bibi’s hair was most definitely changing shades of lilac that day. My favorite moment was when Trump talked to him like a parent talking to a recalcitrant adolescent. I laughed out loud.

      Trump: “it is the parties themselves who must directly negotiate such an agreement. We’ll be beside them; we’ll be working with them. As with any successful negotiation, both sides will have to make compromises. (Turns to Bibi) You know that, right?”

      Bibi: “Both sides.”

      lol

  12. [email protected]
    February 21, 2017, 4:15 pm

    As a American-Palestinian, the hope is that an expanding base of activists will help BDS and will create increased pressure to secure basic Palestinian Human Rights. The fear is that Jewish activists and their American allies will not really give up their privilege and will find willing Palestinian partners who are willing to perpetuate the charade of dialogue and peace process in lieu of justice. Where I live, my fear is of a coopted activists is much easier to see then my hope that activists pushing for equality

    • Citizen
      February 21, 2017, 5:47 pm

      What do your Palestinian friends think, and your family? Same as you? Just wondering because I never met a Palestinian American.

      • [email protected]
        February 21, 2017, 7:02 pm

        Palestinian-Americans like anyone else are a diverse group and so we like everyone else hold different views on things. Having said that, there are clear cultural norms that the vast majority hold that are not often discussed here or other political blogs that are helpful for those who don’t know us personally.

        1. To most any American, the question, “Where are you from?” only means where were you raised or where do you live now? To a Palestinian, it only means one thing, where was your family in 1948. It is a moment frozen in time, and ones identity is locked into that year and that place. It’s an existential question, who’s answer is frozen. So for me, I’m born in New York, I live in Portland, Oregon but really I’m from Ramleh, Palestine. The New York and the Portland parts are temporary and transitive, the Ramleh is internal and definitive.

        2. We come from an ancient culture. Many Americans think in terms of life starting from the day you were born and ends the day you die. Ancient cultures (Jewish and native American are similar) think in terms of centuries. As such, it is harder to get Palestinian Americans into the street to demand their rights, now and here.

        3. Palestine of 1948 is romanticized. Every Palestinian seems to have an idealized version of life before 1948. It was sublime, the Oranges tasted better, everyone was friendlier, we could move, no one cared what religion you are. Young children are given stories of this world that nurtures their roots and their place in the universe.

        4. Virtually every Palestinian American doesn’t trust either the media or American power. For many Americans “Fake News” and “Alternative facts” are new and unwelcome. For Palestinian Americans of all walks of life or views, there is a knowledge that Alternative Facts and Fake News are not at new at all. This is a major world view that virtually all Palestinian Americans ascribe to, liberal or conservative, rich or poor. For us, pretty much all we have ever seen or known in America are lies about us and fake news to buttress those lies.

        So we are different from one another. But like other groups of Americans, sometimes it is good to know basic assumptions that distinguish a group as a way of helping to understand them.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 22, 2017, 8:55 am

        PDX

        super comment. I can imagine how it feels. The first time I went to ahla Filisteen I thought I knew everything from my media diet. I had a teacher from Bethlehem who sat me down and told me I knew nothing about Palestinian reality, media and power . And I learnt so much from her.

        It has been lies and bullshit since 1948.

      • just
        February 22, 2017, 10:12 am

        Yours is a wonderfully enriching comment, Pdxmuscle.

        (thanks for the dawn song, Maghlawatan!)

      • bintbiba
        February 22, 2017, 11:16 am

        Pdxmuscle, at 7:02pm

        What an excellent comment .

        You describe the ‘feeling’ so well . Though I am not an American/Palestinian …rather a
        Brit / Palestinian , born and bred in al Quds !
        Thank you for developing it so incisively !

  13. Citizen
    February 21, 2017, 4:16 pm

    Phil, re your white “supremacist Richard Spencer,”; Spencer says he’s not such an animal, but rather, a “white nationalist,” meaning he thinks ethnic Whites should dwell alone, and others, separate but equal in their own area. Just saying.

    • Pixel
      February 22, 2017, 4:58 pm

      That’s an excellent point, Citizen. Thank you for making it.

  14. Annie Robbins
    February 21, 2017, 8:10 pm

    i posit the vast majority of so called liberal zionists will go on hand wringing and not see their own culpability at facilitating this crime at all. the old shoot and cry. it didn’t take a rocket scientist to see years ago israel was never going to allow a palestinian state. liberal zionists have just put a liberal face on something that’s not and will never be liberal. dragging all this out for years and years supporting their “democracy” — that never was anything of the sort.

    i’m so disgusted.

    • just
      February 21, 2017, 8:39 pm

      Ditto, Annie.

      There is not ( and has never been or will be), anything “liberal’ about Zionism nor its many adherents,

      Zionism= Zionism.

      Period.

    • johneill
      February 21, 2017, 8:41 pm

      “shoot and cry.” reminded me of dick cheney, complete without the tears. kindly advising the victimized party to apologize. theres a metaphor there i’m too lazy to work out now.

    • Atlantaiconoclast
      February 21, 2017, 9:58 pm

      indeed! I hope Phil is right, but I think skepticism is merited and is the right path to take going forward.

    • Maghlawatan
      February 22, 2017, 3:54 am

      Zionism is failed settler colonialism . They never ever considered the rights of the natives once they had power. It was brutality and pauperisation all the way. Now they have 5.5m Palestinian “Aliens” in their Jewish shangri-la la land, plus the refugees. They can have the status quo or Jewish morality. They can’t have both. The psychology is fascinating. The groupthink cannot process the reality of 5.5m non Jews.

  15. Atlantaiconoclast
    February 21, 2017, 9:57 pm

    I will believe it when I see it. The fact that so many Jewish people are so passionately anti Trump, but silent on Israel speaks volumes. I see little evidence for the kind of self awareness Phil says is increasing among American Jews.

    • Maghlawatan
      February 22, 2017, 3:57 am

      Why bother.? If you were Jewish would you take on the Zionists? Would you like to be ostracised as Goldstone was? Would you like to have your career destroyed a la Finkelstein? Zionism is a racket. Very like Tammany Hall. One day Tammany Hall collapsed all by its little self.

      • Atlantaiconoclast
        February 22, 2017, 11:45 am

        No, I sympathize with Jews who speak out, however, they are still protected in some sense.

  16. Kay24
    February 21, 2017, 11:36 pm

    If anyone has doubts that the US/Israel’s fake war against ISIS is not an attempt to topple Assad and attack Syria, think again. Remember Israel tends to injured ISIS members. ISIS is supposed to be supported by nations like Saudi Arabia (Sunnis) and Assad is supported by Iran. Proxy wars. This is a US/Israeli ruse to once again bomb and decimate another Muslim nation.

    This is a tweet from Max Blumenthal’s website:

    Leith Abou FadelVerified account‏@leithfadel 2h2 hours ago

    Israeli has conducted more airstrikes against the Syrian Army this year than they ever have against Al-Qaeda and ISIS

    What a morning already….Israeli warplane completely bypasses ISIS & Al-Qaeda in the Qalamoun Mountains in order to strike the Syrian Army

    • Pixel
      February 22, 2017, 5:11 pm

      @Kathleen

      Absolutely. Part of the ol’ “7 countries in 5 years” memo. Israel and it’s bestie, Saudi Arabia, agreed to split the whole thing up. (Spoiler: Saudi Arabia failed to understand that they’d be taken out next.)

      Gen. Wesley Clark, “Winning Modern Wars”

      “As I went back through the Pentagon in November 2001, one of the senior military staff officers had time for a chat. Yes, we were still on track for going against Iraq, he said. But there was more. This was being discussed as part of a five-year campaign plan, he said, and there were a total of seven countries, beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan…He said it with reproach–with disbelief, almost–at the breadth of the vision. I moved the conversation away, for this was not something I wanted to hear. And it was not something I wanted to see moving forward, either. …I left the Pentagon that afternoon deeply concerned.”

  17. diasp0ra
    February 22, 2017, 5:53 am

    A silver lining of the whole Trump situation is that Israel is rushing to suck up to him, simultaneously allying itself with all the dark forces that support Trump, including literal white supremacists and Nazis.

    Israel is increasingly being correlated with reactionary forces. In the last couple of decades Israel has worked overtime to destroy the progressive image that liberal Zionists have worked so hard to maintain. Even though Israel has always been reactionary, its image in the mainstream US media was always of a progressive democracy.

    I don’t think this charade can be maintained indefinitely. The contradictions of supporting Israel while opposing Trump are becoming much clearer.

    • Atlantaiconoclast
      February 22, 2017, 11:46 am

      But if Trump is successful and wins reelection, this strategy will only hurt the Palestinians.

      • diasp0ra
        February 22, 2017, 1:50 pm

        @Atlanta

        There is no strategy here, Atlanta, it’s just commentary on developing events. But I believe that once this image of Israel is broken, there is no going back. We’ve survived everything Israel has thrown at us for the last 70 years or so, we can outlive Trump as well.

        Not even Reagan and Thatcher could hold up Apartheid South Africa against the world.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 22, 2017, 3:24 pm

        This was a key cultural moment in the fall of apartheid

    • Pixel
      February 22, 2017, 5:16 pm

      #PewDiePieDidNothingWrong

      https://youtu.be/dC5LyaCdpEI

  18. pabelmont
    February 22, 2017, 8:03 am

    Annie and pdxmuscle: Palestinians hold on to the memory/myth of the lovely days of old when all Palestinians lived happily together. This makes their identity. My late wife was raised in Ramallah and had friends in the USA who were Christian (mostly: Ramallah was before 1948 a Christian village) amnd Muslim. No problem. there was one Jewish girl in her class at Friends Girls School (or maybe that memory is from another memoir). Barren women in one town, Christian, Muslim, and Jewish, all prayed under a certain ancient tree to get with child. Perhaps the stories are true, but certainly the stories all make an “identity”.

    And American Jews having largely lost any cohesiveness as Jews other than mere society, a couple of important annual holidays, and support-for-Israel, are unlikely to want to lose that last part of their Jewish identity (if they still hold on to it) — the love-for-Israel.

    I’ve always thought I was “Jewish” but the idea had little content besides admiring my mother’s delicious motza ball soup and chopped liver (I never understood the “what am I, chopped liver?” of New York), noticing my own love for discussion, argument, etc., and admiring (if that is the word) my mother’s intense anti-religious attitudes played out, among other ways, in a wonderful recipe for stuffed zucchini which combined motza-meal and bacon bits. SO MY Jewishness, such as it is, has never had trouble with such things as marrying a Palestinian-American or aligning with MondoWeiss.

    But I really wonder about anyone Jewish who has fused pro-Israelism into that Jewish identity. Hard to let it go.

    • just
      February 22, 2017, 10:22 am

      If only other people could and would learn from your insight and experience, pabelmont. I am sorry that you lost your wife and partner. May she rest in peace and forever gently in your memories.

      Thanks very much for your contributions here.

      (As for “chopped liver”~ it’s so delectable when made with careful love and genius!)

  19. hophmi
    February 22, 2017, 8:48 am

    You have no vision with which to replace the was other than Arab and Muslim supremacy.

    • amigo
      February 22, 2017, 10:15 am

      Translation please Hopknee.

      Gobbledygook is not the preferred language on this site.

      • Mooser
        February 22, 2017, 12:21 pm

        “You have no vision with which to replace the was other than Arab and Muslim supremacy.”

        I like that, “Hophmi”! They used to call the British colonial administration of India “the Raj”.
        And I think “the was” is a fine name for the Zionist regime in Palestine.

      • Mooser
        February 22, 2017, 4:18 pm

        “Gobbledygook is not the preferred language on this site.”

        It gets in the way of the kveltzing.

      • amigo
        February 22, 2017, 7:15 pm

        “It gets in the way of the kveltzing.” Mooser

        How,s this , “Goebbels”dygook.

        No amount of kveltzing is going to get in the way of that.

    • Talkback
      February 22, 2017, 12:05 pm

      hophmi: “You have no vision with which to replace the was other than Arab and Muslim supremacy.”

      Majority ruling doesn’t mean supremacy. It becomes supremacy, if you have to expell others to achieve a majority and then claim that your state is not even a state of all its citizen.

      But we allready know your supremacist vision, don’t we?

    • Maghlawatan
      February 22, 2017, 12:42 pm

      In the long run Israel has no chance. Just look at who destroyed the first 2 temples. A crowd from the East and one from the west. When Jewish power was weak. As it will be again. Mean reversion

      • Mooser
        February 22, 2017, 1:20 pm

        “In the long run Israel has no chance.”

        “Mag” you know what your problem is? You, sir, are a pessimist! You don’t look on the bright side, see the possibilities. Why, if every person who identified as Jewish on earth suddenly decided to devote all of their assets, efforts, and reproductive capacity to the Zionist project, I bet we could make it work. It could happen.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 22, 2017, 4:34 pm

        Mooser,

        if Judaism was an open tent where you didn’t have rabbis deciding who is in and who is out, maybe. But Judaism has the rabbis deciding.
        Even in 567 BC it didn’t have enough people and the poor Temple got it.

        There’s a mountain pass in Switzerland, the Grand St Bernard, and every 1000 years or so an invading army passes through it. Nothing happens for around 1000 years and then it’s action. Hannibal came this way and the next visitation was by a Saracen Muslim army from North Africa around 700 AD . Then it was Napoleon

        Eretz Israel gets those sorts of visits every so often. the cycle is longer than the rise and collapse of economy cycle. If the 2 coincide, temples can be destroyed.

      • Mooser
        February 22, 2017, 5:30 pm

        “Even in 567 BC it didn’t have enough people and the poor Temple got it.”

        Well, if we don’t all hang out together, we will hang out separately!

    • diasp0ra
      February 23, 2017, 4:15 am

      @hophmi

      Colonists are always afraid they will receive the same treatment they inflicted on the natives. You will find that history is full of examples of the opposite of this, the colonized peoples have been remarkably forgiving, from Algeria to South Africa.

      I have never seen anyone here advocating for an Arab or Muslim supremacist state. What people have been calling for is an egalitarian secular one state where everyone is equal. I realize those having all the power becoming equal with those whom they had power over can seem like a step down, but it’s the right thing to do.

      Equality to the privileged seems like persecution. But it’s not.

      • jon s
        February 23, 2017, 3:33 pm

        Giving up on the two state solution is like saying to Netanyahu, Bennet and the settlers: “I give up, you win”.
        Two states is still the only solution, which is both politically possible (just barely…) and morally sound.

      • jon s
        February 23, 2017, 3:43 pm

        diasp0ra,

        “I have never seen anyone here advocating for an Arab or Muslim supremacist state. ”
        You may be correct in regard to “anyone here”- the world of MW commenters.
        However, out in the real world, the Palestinians strive for a state in which Arab Palestinian culture and the Muslim religion are predominant

      • amigo
        February 23, 2017, 4:11 pm

        “Two states is still the only solution, which is both politically possible (just barely…) and morally sound. “Jon S

        Try to keep up Jon S . Those leaders of your have no interest in the 2SS.

        Read my post from Haaretz , (On the Trump reminds Palestinians etc thread.) on Lieberman,s comments on an Arab Frei Judenstaat.Then go on his blog and change his mind.When you are finished there do the same with Shaked and all the others who have given their thumbs down to a 2SS.You are chasing a moonbeam.

      • Mooser
        February 23, 2017, 4:25 pm

        “Diasp0ra” you must remember that “Hophmi” and “Jon s” are constantly haunted by the specter of the fate of those unsuspecting Jews who came to America, and were offered ‘equality, or nothing’ by the Government.

        They want to make sure that never happens again!

      • diasp0ra
        February 23, 2017, 6:59 pm

        @Jon s

        “Giving up on the two state solution is like saying to Netanyahu, Bennet and the settlers: “I give up, you win”

        I disagree. There is nothing morally sound about the two state solution. The two state solution is like saying to Israel, “I give up, you win”. It legitimizes Israel on almost all of historical Palestine and the Palestinians have to agree to 22%, even though we are not that far off, population wise. It also means the refugees will never receive justice. I don’t count the two state solution as a win.

        “However, out in the real world, the Palestinians strive for a state in which Arab Palestinian culture and the Muslim religion are predominant”

        In the real world, Israel is a state where Jewish culture is also predominant. We are talking about future solutions, i.e. the one state solution. Nobody suggesting a one state solution is saying it will be Arab. In my opinion, an egalitarian secular state for both peoples is the only form of restorative justice that will bring peace. This can be in many configurations, discussions can be had, but partition won’t end the conflict. Especially not with today’s parameters.

      • jon s
        February 25, 2017, 1:12 pm

        Diasp0ra,
        “Nobody suggesting a one state solution is saying it will be Arab. ”
        Really? Nobody? How about Hamas, for example?

        As you say, we disagree. The ultimate objective is to achieve a future in which Israelis and Palestinians live in peace, without fear and hatred and bloodshed. I think that partition, two states ,is the best and only realistic solution. I’m not getting into the precise borders and percentages. Once partition is agreed on in principle, all that can be discussed.
        And since you mentioned the refugees : two states is the only path to a resolution of that issue as well.

      • diasp0ra
        February 25, 2017, 4:24 pm

        @Jons

        “Really? Nobody? How about Hamas, for example?”

        We’re talking about a secular one state solution. This is what we discuss here. Nobody brought up Hamas or the Likud and what their version of one state looks like. We’re discussing democratic egalitarian ones.

        It seems realistic to you, Jon, because you already have the vast majority of the pie. Of course this partition is good for you. It will not end the conflict. Only justice will, and that can never happen without addressing colonialism and the way Israel was established: Over our corpses.

        Refugees have a right to return to where they were cleansed from. There is absolutely zero moral or rational point to arguing that half the population should live in 22% while the other half live in the rest.

      • talknic
        February 25, 2017, 8:00 pm

        @ jon s February 25, 2017, 1:12 pm

        “Really? Nobody? How about Hamas, for example?”

        Quote ’em, incl date & source

        The ultimate objective is to achieve a future in which Israelis and Palestinians live in peace, without fear and hatred and bloodshed.”

        Simple. F*ck off out of all non Israeli territories. Go live in Israel. It’s never been tried. Israel has been acting illegally in non-Israeli territories since 00:01 May 15th 1948

        “I think that partition, two states ,is the best and only realistic solution.”

        ” Once partition is agreed on in principle, all that can be discussed”

        Strange, it was agreed in principal by the Zionist Federation’s Jewish Agency http://wp.me/pDB7k-Yx
        It was agreed by Israel and every state that recognized Israel as Israel asked to be recognized http://wp.me/pDB7k-Xk

        The Palestinians have no legal obligation what so ever to forgo ANY of their rights or territories in negotiations/discussions.

        Israel is obliged to withdraw from all non-Israeli territories whether there are discussions/negotiations or not.

        All that is legally required to be negotiated or discussed is how and when Israel will withdraw, taking ALL its citizens with it. Read the Egypt Israel Peace Treaty, that’s the implementation of UNSC res 242 http://wp.me/pDB7k-ZZ

        BTW It’s irrelevant that the Arab States didn’t agree with partition. They were never legally obliged to agree to it

        UNGA res 181 or not, what ever lay outside of Israel when Israel proclaimed its borders is not and never was Israeli. Like all states, Israel has never had any legal rights to anything beyond its borders!

        “And since you mentioned the refugees : two states is the only path to a resolution of that issue as well.”

        What about Israel’s non-Jewish Israeli refugees? Will the Jewish State grant its own non-Jewish citizens RoR ?

      • talknic
        February 25, 2017, 9:57 pm

        On Edit : Oooops double post

      • talknic
        February 25, 2017, 9:58 pm

        @ jon s February 23, 2017, 3:43 pm

        “out in the real world, the Palestinians strive for a state in which Arab Palestinian culture and the Muslim religion are predominant”

        A majority Muslim population is very likely to be the predominant religion, no matter what country they’re in.

        As to Arab Palestinian culture in Palestine …. how inconsiderate of them. Who do they think they are, stupid Zionists?

      • jon s
        February 26, 2017, 5:04 pm

        diasp0ra,
        I, for one, support the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, in a Palestinian state. I don’t see why the Palestinians should be expected to forego the right to a state in which their culture will be predominant. All this- in the context of a two state solution.

        In my view, the two sides, Israelis and Palestinians, can have either justice or peace, can’t have both, and I hope that both sides ultimately choose the latter. What I mean is that what both sides would consider real justice can only be achieved through a bloodbath. Instead of obssessing over who did what 50 years ago, 70 years ago ,100 years ago, we should focus on the present and the future and seek peace: find a reasonable, practical, agreement, which will enable the two peoples who are destined to share this land to envision a better future for our children , without violence, without bloodshed, without so many wasted lives. Any such agreement will entail compromises and will fall short of any notion of “justice”.

      • eljay
        February 26, 2017, 6:19 pm

        || jon s: … In my view, the two sides, Israelis and Palestinians, can have either justice or peace, can’t have both … What I mean is that what both sides would consider real justice can only be achieved through a bloodbath. … ||

        Justice, accountability and equality can be achieved without a bloodbath. The two sides can have both justice and peace in either a one-state or a two-state solution.

        Zionists like you argue against justice and peace because you stand to lose most or all of your ill-gotten gains. And, so, you advocate instead a Zionist “peace” that:
        – allows Israel to continue to exist as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine;
        – absolves Israel of responsibility and accountability for its past and on-going (war) crimes; and
        – absolves Israel of its obligations under international law (incl. RoR).

      • Annie Robbins
        February 26, 2017, 7:55 pm

        Two states is still the only solution, which is both politically possible (just barely…) and morally sound….. I’m not getting into the precise borders and percentages…..Any such agreement will entail compromises and will fall short of any notion of “justice”….

        jon s, if your two states fairy tale falls short of any notion of justice, and you will not mention precise borders and percentages, how can you make assertions two states would be morally sound?

        unless you’re willing to advocate borders that share the land equally, each holding similar sovereignty. because there’s nothing morally sound about a demilitarized palestinian state lacking justice on 20% of the land. that’s not peace, that’s surrender.

        and what would be the point of palestinians agreeing to this again (they have already agreed to this — see palestine papers — ) knowing israelis have continually refused to put forward border proposals (not to be confused with claims of border proposal ie olmert). why do you say this is barely possible?

      • Mooser
        February 26, 2017, 7:19 pm

        . “Instead of obssessing over who did what 50 years ago, 70 years ago ,100 years ago,” “Jon s”

        That’s right. What’s really important, and worth obsessing over, is what happened, supposedly, 2500 years ago in Palestine.

      • oldgeezer
        February 26, 2017, 8:31 pm

        @jon s

        Jon we have had decade upon decade of 2SS without Israel defining it’s borders. The con is long worn out on most people. It is a pretext for stealing more territory.

        And within the 24 hours we have nutty publicly proclaiming Israel must have security control over any future Palestine. In short there is no 2SS on the table. I don’t care what you call it whether that is permanent normalized occupation or bantustans. It is not a state for them.

        I prefer 2SS but the whacko criminal zios did win the battle but will lose the war as a 1SS is the only reasonable outcome at this point.

        Short of grievous war crimes by Israel to cleanse the territory. And we all know they are more than experienced and capable of behaving that immorally. They violate human rigjts every single day. They abuse millions of innocents. They imprison and torture kids. The lucky ones not butchered that is.

      • echinococcus
        February 27, 2017, 4:38 am

        John S, can’t you go BS some other site where they are more gullible?

        Two states is still the only solution, which is both politically possible (just barely…)

        Everything is politically possible: politics includes resistance and wars.
        If for the purposes of your twisted pill-pulling “politically” means with application of violence by the invader only, the victims remaining disarmed, the only situation in which it is “barely possible” is the US enforcing international law (in your dre… pardon –certainly not *your Zio dreams…)

        and morally sound

        You can’t be serious. The only morally sound solution is restoring Palestine. Palestine where all decisions on borders and citizenship on the whole area of Palestine are made by the whole Palestinian people only, excluding illegal invaders since 1897, in the total absence of occupation or other duress. All others may be compromises, but there is no compromise in Zionism, none, nada, zilch, nitchevo.

      • diasp0ra
        February 27, 2017, 6:13 am

        @Jon s

        Your concern is touching, but I don’t want to live in a predominant Palestinian state if I’m going to be shoved into a fifth of my country without real sovereignty or control over anything.
        The two sides are not equal. There is a false equivalence in what you say. One side came from abroad and is actively colonizing the other. Justice for colonists is not at all equitable to justice for the colonized.

        It’s incredibly showing of Israeli privilege when you view these events to be in the past when I still live with their consequences every day, because there are millions of refugees who don’t have their homes so that you can have your home. Naturally this situation is good for you, naturally you want now for bygones to be bygones after you control every inch of the land and can settle freely everywhere. We can’t have a fresh start without addressing what’s going on, and the two state solution does no such thing.

        What is reasonable and practical for the slave owner is slavery for those he controls.

        I want to share the land. I have no problem with that, but as equals. Not as controlled subjects. Not in a glorified Bantustan. I want to go back to Jerusalem where part of my family was removed from and be able to live and settle there freely. I want Israelis to acknowledge that they did come in and replace us, and that wasn’t 1000 years ago, its consequences are very alive and very real. Just because you stopped feeling them doesn’t mean they are gone. I have just as much a right to live in Safed that I do in Ramallah. I want one state for everyone, an egalitarian one.

        I’m sure you’ll speak of bloodbaths, but so did the Boers and the French in Algeria and every other colonial society that came up with pretexts to deny the natives their rights. So forgive me if I can’t agree with you on this.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 27, 2017, 8:27 am

        “Instead of obssessing over who did what 50 years ago, 70 years ago ,100 years ago “-

        As soon as Zionists drop every mention of the Shoah I am sure Palestinians will oblige. The past is part of the present, for both Jews and Palestinians.

      • just
        February 27, 2017, 9:58 am

        Powerful & true comments, diasp0ra.

        (thanks to all)

      • Mooser
        February 27, 2017, 11:46 am

        “but there is no compromise in Zionism, none, nada, zilch, nitchevo.”

        Well, yes there is. As the number of (cough, cough) people willing to live under the Zionist eternal war regime goes down, and as the fad for Zionism disappears among Jews (and others) Zionism will have to do a lot of compromising.

      • Mooser
        February 27, 2017, 11:54 am

        “because there are millions of refugees who don’t have their homes so that you can have your home”

        “Your home”? No, “diasp0ra” it wopuld more properly be ‘your homes‘. “Jon s” was born in the US and holds citizenship, but resides in Israel, with the head-kickers of the Beersheba settlement.

        And having someplace else to go (the USA) there’s not a goddam reason in the world for “Jon s” to make any compromises. He can always hop a jet back to the good ol USA if he makes Palestine too hot to hold him.

        I wonder what real Israelis think of people like him.

      • catalan
        February 27, 2017, 1:50 pm

        “As the number of (cough, cough) people willing to live under the Zionist eternal war regime goes down,” Mooser
        Says the citizen of a country whose budget for defense in 2018 will be 650 billion dollars (compare to NIH budget of 30B) – eternal peace surely pays off.

      • talknic
        February 27, 2017, 6:03 pm

        catalan demonstrates how to Ziopoop

        @ catalan February 27, 2017, 1:50 pm

        “As the number of (cough, cough) people willing to live under the Zionist eternal war regime goes down,” Mooser
        “Says the citizen of a country whose budget for defense in 2018 will be 650 billion dollars (compare to NIH budget of 30B) – eternal peace surely pays off.”

        Please post evidence Mooser supports the US defense budget .. thx … I’ll wait …

        BTW You’re a once illegal US citizen ….right?

      • echinococcus
        February 27, 2017, 11:42 pm

        Mooser,
        Sure as death and taxes, every time one points to the fact that not once in 140 years there was a single instance of Zionist readiness to compromise, somebody will tell you it’s around the corner.

  20. Ossinev
    February 22, 2017, 12:17 pm

    @hophmi

    “You have no vision with which to replace the was other than Arab and Muslim supremacy”

    OK lets start again. Remember deep breath count to ten then slowly print the words in English so that you produce a coherent understandable sentence and relevant point. It really isn`t rocket science but then again for the self brainwashed Zionist perhaps it is a bit of a struggle at times so best have a nap beforehand just in case.

  21. Keith
    February 22, 2017, 2:56 pm

    PHIL- “Every time I turn on the radio or television I see empowered Jews warning about Trump’s danger to democracy.”

    I am glad that you brought this up, I certainly couldn’t. Of course, the notion that these “liberal” imperialists are concerned about democracy would be laughable in less dire circumstances. Only the willfully blind will fail to see that this is about power. Deep State power brokers own the Democratic Party, supported Hillary, and continue to want confrontation with Russia leading (they hope) to imperial hegemony. They speak for the more powerful group of Deep State imperialists, and are aligned with the CIA in a color revolution coup attempt which will probably be successful. These “intellectuals” are Stalinist to the core, their comments grotesque propaganda. As one example, Paul Krugman drops all pretense of rationality as he contributes to the orchestrated narrative of Trump as a Putin puppet, whom others have called a traitor. Notice how he adopts the standard reference to the elected and overwhelmingly popular Putin as a “dictator.” Don’t misunderstand, I am not overly concerned that this effort will likely succeed, Trump’s election has already helped to weaken the Deep State and empire itself. On the other hand, with Trump out for talking to the Russians and a President Pence in office, the empire may try to make up for lost time. I have linked Krugman’s outrageous comments below.

    “The story so far: A foreign dictator intervened on behalf of a U.S. presidential candidate — and that candidate won. Close associates of the new president were in contact with the dictator’s espionage officials during the campaign, and his national security adviser was forced out over improper calls to that country’s ambassador — but not until the press reported it; the president learned about his actions weeks earlier, but took no action.” (Paul Krugman) https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/17/opinion/the-silence-of-the-hacks.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0

  22. Misterioso
    February 22, 2017, 3:55 pm

    For the record:

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/bds-activist-raises-56000-for-vandalized-jewish-cemetery/?utm_source=The+Times+of+Israel+Daily+Edition&utm_campaign=e0f1ebf585-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_02_22&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_adb46cec92-e0f1ebf585-55607481

    Times of Israel, Feb. 22/17

    “BDS activist raises $56,000 for vandalized Jewish cemetery”

    “Palestinian-American Linda Sarsour says she hopes crowdfunding effort will help bring ‘a sense of security’ to US Jews”

  23. Maghlawatan
    February 22, 2017, 4:27 pm

    Glenn Greenwald

    ‏@ggreenwald 21 feb

    Whatever one thought before on Israel, it’s now indisputably on path to permanent apartheid. “Soft” opposition & left-splitting is immoral.

  24. Stogumber
    February 23, 2017, 3:14 am

    Jews (as well as other minorities) have normally three options:
    – being part of a distinct Jewish people (which implies the desire for their own state)
    – being part of the majority people (which may or may not be difficult)
    – being Cosmopolitans. This seems the most sophisticated option, just as long as one interpretes Cosmopolitans as “non-people”. But don’t deceive yourselves: Cosmopolitans are a particular identitarian group which more and more acts for its own interests against others and is seen as a people of its own.

    • Mooser
      February 28, 2017, 2:27 pm

      “Jews (as well as other minorities) have normally three options:”

      Oh, look! It’s the man who determines what the options are. Seems there are only three.

  25. catalan
    February 28, 2017, 11:47 am

    “BTW You’re a once illegal US citizen ….right?”
    Yes, I was once illegal, now I work for the US government. Just goes to show what a great country I live in. Illegal residents contribute about half a trillion to the US economy and are indispensable in agriculture and hospitality (where I was, for many years).
    Mooser does not have to announce his support for the US defense budget. His taxes pay for it and the material support he provides is far more important than some words he may share on a niche blog about Israel. His money pays for US wars, literally. He does have a choice – he can move to Sweden or Switzerland, for instance.
    I guess I was trying to say that we Americans, who finance the largest army in the world and are always involved in five conflicts, cannot really lecture anyone on the benefits of peace. But of course, one can think otherwise as well.

    • oldgeezer
      February 28, 2017, 12:45 pm

      @catalan

      Municipal government in the state of NM and not US. Do keep your storyline straight.

    • Mooser
      February 28, 2017, 2:24 pm

      Thanks for making my point, “catalan”.

      You would rather live in the US, even risking illegal entry to do it. In Israel you would have been given automatic citizenship, right?
      But you preferred to take your chances on the US, in spite of the high defense budget. (And you don’t pay taxes?) You don’t even think about going to Israel.

      And the number of Jews willing to go to Israel or stay in Israel will lessen even further. And even a hint of any change in Israel will send them fleeing.

    • talknic
      February 28, 2017, 10:04 pm

      Watching a really stupified Zionist dodge, duck and weave

      @ catalan February 28, 2017, 11:47 am

      //BTW You’re a once illegal US citizen ….right?//

      “Yes, I was once illegal, now I work for the US government. Just goes to show what a great country I live in. blah blah blah blah blah” … ” I was trying to say that we Americans, who finance the largest army in the world and are always involved in five conflicts, cannot really lecture anyone on the benefits of peace…”

      Precisely

      Now, for the second time please post evidence Mooser supports the US defense budget .. thx

      • echinococcus
        March 1, 2017, 12:59 am

        Talknic,

        “Catalan” is right here. No proof needed; Mooser and me and any other US person do support US war by just being in the taxation system no matter the subjective intentions.

      • talknic
        March 1, 2017, 8:31 am

        @ echinococcus March 1, 2017, 12:59 am

        “Catalan” is right here. No proof needed; Mooser and me and any other US person do support US war by just being in the taxation system no matter the subjective intentions”

        Is there a box on a tax form where you can indicate your approval or disapproval of your tax dollars being spent on the military?

      • eljay
        March 1, 2017, 9:02 am

        || echinococcus: Talknic, “Catalan” is right here. No proof needed; Mooser and me [sic] and any other US person do support US war by just being in the taxation system no matter the subjective intentions. ||

        So you agree with catalan that (Jewish and non-Jewish) non-Zionist Israeli taxpayers support the occupation and colonization of Palestine. Huh. I guess you’ll have to drive them out of geographic Palestine, too.

      • echinococcus
        March 1, 2017, 9:26 pm

        Talknic,

        Exactly, There’s no such box on the tax form; disagreeing or protesting are worthless as long as your country of citizenship owns you. You remain an accomplice, period. A protester is also an accessory to the crime heshe’s protesting until and unless that protest is successful and turns the situation around.
        Summary: shouting and kicking is nice, but your dollars already went into those bombs. Live with it.

    • eljay
      March 1, 2017, 7:51 am

      || catalan: … Mooser does not have to announce his support for the US defense budget. His taxes pay for it and the material support he provides is far more important than some words he may share on a niche blog about Israel. His money pays for US wars, literally. He does have a choice – he can move to Sweden or Switzerland, for instance. … ||

      1. Mooser must pay a sh*t-load of taxes if “his money pays for US wars, literally”.

      2. According to your “logic”:
      – the occupation and colonization of Palestine is not the fault of Zionist Israelis but of (Jewish and non-Jewish) non-Zionist Israelis whose money pays for it, literally; and
      – if (Jewish and non-Jewish) non-Zionist Israelis were to leave Israel the Zionists – bereft of taxes and material support – would end the occupation and colonization of Palestine (just as Mooser’s departure from America would end US wars).

      Interesting stuff.

      • Mooser
        March 1, 2017, 12:29 pm

        “1. Mooser must pay a sh*t-load of taxes if “his money pays for US wars, literally”.”

        Absolutely not! All that weed-tax money stays in the State of Washington. And I haven’t paid enough to support a war. Maybe enough to equip a fashionable cavalry regiment, but dash it all, who’s counting, by Jove! Wheel into Line, Right! Charge! Into the valley of the dolls, death and taxes.!

  26. catalan
    March 1, 2017, 10:34 am

    responding to several people –
    Mooser is not the only person responsible for the US defense budget and without him the budget would continue. Nonetheless, he bears partial responsibility to the extent that his taxes contribute to it. Of course, he doesn’t have a choice how his taxes will be spent exactly.
    However, by choosing to live and pay taxes in America (which he can leave) and also by obeying the tax laws (which he can break if he believes they are immoral), he still expresses an implied consent with the actions of the US government. There is no need for a checkbox. He can purchase a ticket to New Zealand if he so hates war.
    Personally, I don’t think that the US defense budget is unreasonable. Where I work, more than 20% of expenditures are for policing and related activities. It stands to reason that an extremely wealthy country with massive interests abroad would spend about 20% of its budget on defense. But I do take responsibility for my role in the whole enterprise.

    • Mooser
      March 1, 2017, 12:06 pm

      “But I do take responsibility for my role in the whole enterprise.”

      Yup, you sure do, “catalan”
      Because you know good and goddam well it’s a whole lot better than taking responsibility for Israel.
      Even if Israel offers you automatic citizenship, right of residency, you’d rather take your chances with the USA. Better to be illegal in the US than a fust-cless Jewish Israeli?

      • Mooser
        March 1, 2017, 3:07 pm

        Oh, that’s right, you gave your reasons, “catalan”:

        ” am obviously grateful that for all my worries as a parent, I don’t have to add my son being drafted in Israel as one of them” “catalan”: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/catalan/#sthash.U5eFyRym.dpuf

        “Israel was way more nationalistic and militaristic and “manly” for my chicken nature. I saw there much of what I didn’t like in Bulgaria, only in Bulgaria I was on the receiving side of prejudice. Plus, my Israeli relatives are very different from me and with a few exceptions I am not close to them at all.” “catalan” http://mondoweiss.net/profile/catalan/#sthash.U5eFyRym.dpuf

        Seem like very sensible objections. So you figure enough “nationalistic and militaristic and “manly”” Jews will do the job? Enough so you can suck some kind of Zionist cred (“watch out, he knows CroMag- Lev!”) off the accomplishment, without ever bearing any of the risks, or even contributing a dime?

        You are one sniff away from being an open anti-Zionist, “catalan”. All it’ll take is a whiff of anti-Zionism in the non-Jewish community around you.

    • eljay
      March 1, 2017, 12:36 pm

      || catalan: … Mooser … bears partial responsibility to the extent that his taxes contribute to it. … by choosing to live and pay taxes in America (which he can leave) and also by obeying the tax laws (which he can break if he believes they are immoral), he still expresses an implied consent with the actions of the US government. There is no need for a checkbox. … ||

      So what you’re saying is that Jewish Iranians – who choose to pay taxes and choose not to flee Iran – bear partial responsibility for the actions of the Iranian regime. Similarly, Jewish Syrians bore (and those who remain still bear) partial responsibility for the actions of the Assad regimes. Interesting.

      • talknic
        March 1, 2017, 6:18 pm

        catalan and co sure do come up with some rather bizarre & self defeating theories

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