Dispatch from ‘the most ****ed up place on Earth,’ Hebron’s H2 quarter

Israel/Palestine
on 100 Comments

“They handcuffed and blindfolded me, threw me into a bathroom, and closed the door. They left me there for five hours.”

Issa Amro’s voice rises steadily with anger as he speaks in the backyard of his small home in the H2 region of Hebron, where 400-850 messianic Jewish settlers live, protected by up to 2,000 soldiers, smack in the middle of a Palestinian neighborhood of 36,000. He goes on to describe the Israeli soldiers occasionally opening the door, pointing a gun at him and laughing. His voice quavers at some points, the trauma underlying his anger clearly close to the surface.

He was accused of harboring a terrorist. The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) found a knife at a checkpoint and, based on the accusation of a Jewish settler, claimed it belonged to one of his associates, 17-year-old Ahmed, who sometimes stays with Issa. Ahmed and Issa were held for a week without formal charge. In the occupied territories, under the military law Israel has imposed on them, Palestinians can be held much longer without an indictment. If they are charged, they face trial in a military court where proceedings are secret, the defense has no right to preview evidence, and the conviction rate is 99.74 percent.

Issa is an internationally known human rights activist and the founder of Youth Against Settlements (YAS), an organization focused on non-violent resistance against the Israeli occupation of the West Bank. He has spoken around the world, including at the United Nations, and today he is addressing a group of about 48 Jewish activists including myself, the majority of them American, along with a few British, South Africans, and Belgians, who have traveled to the West Bank as part of a delegation organized by a group called the Center for Jewish Nonviolence (CJNV). There are over 130 of us, divided into five working groups, two of which are in Hebron this day. The others have been sent to other sites in the West Bank, and are presumably listening to similarly tragic testimonies.

Ahmed and Issa are lucky, or at least as lucky as individuals detained and tortured in a military prison on charges supported by no credible evidence can be. Because Issa is relatively renowned, the case received some attention, leading to a DNA test on the knife that proved the weapon wasn’t Ahmed’s. The typical Palestinian resident of H2, of course, does not have the same connections and could end up in prison for years under the same circumstances. Understandably, Issa tells us, many residents keep their heads down and don’t make trouble. 

Issa Amro (L) in the backyard of his Hebron home. (Photo: Charlie Zimmerman)

Ghost town

In Hebron, every single aspect of Palestinian life is controlled by military law, soldiers, and settlers.

The city is divided into two sections, H1 and H2, based on an agreement between Israel and the Palestinian Authority in the 1990s. H1 is completely Arab and ostensibly under Palestinian control; H2, despite the overwhelming majority of Palestinians who live there, is under Israeli control.  The mission of deployed soldiers is solely to protect the 400-850 settlers. So when a settler commits a crime against Palestinians, such as throwing trash or rocks, or stealing from their homes, soldiers will take no action against the perpetrator. At best, they will call the local police, who are supposedly responsible for protecting all residents of the area.  Invariably, members of this local, Israeli police force will take an hour or more to show up, and the settler, rather than waiting around to be arrested, will walk away.

We learn this and more about H2 prior to Issa’s speech on a tour provided by Breaking the Silence, an organization of dissident former Israeli soldiers who served in the Occupied Territories. Our guide brings us to a public park in Kiryat Arba, an Israeli settlement adjacent to Hebron, which houses Baruch Goldstein’s tomb.  In 1994, Goldstein walked into Hebron’s Tomb of the Patriarchs (a holy place in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) opened fire on Muslims praying at the site. The IDF, assuming the attacker must be an Arab, shot at supplicants attempting to flee. Twenty-nine Muslims were killed, including four by the IDF, and 125 were injured. Goldstein was subdued and killed by some of his intended victims as he attempted to reload his weapon. His tomb’s epitaph, written in Hebrew, praises him as a hero. In the spirit of fairness, our guide notes that most Israelis, including settlers, don’t share this sentiment.  The tomb sits out in the open, unguarded. There are no signs of attempted defacement or destruction, and no alternative point of view offered anywhere else in the park. Perhaps most residents don’t view this mass murderer as a hero, I think to myself, but no one seems to object all that much to this notion. 

Later, we walk down al-Shuhada Street, once the site of a busy marketplace with hundreds of Palestinian shops and stands. These were all shuttered during the intifada in the early 2000s, and even though authorities have supposedly permitted a few of them to re-open, there is no sign of any such activity, except for a few makeshift vendors selling tea and small occupation souvenirs, such as wristbands and refrigerator magnets with the slogan “Free Palestine.”  A barrier segregating Jewish and Arab pedestrian traffic was removed in 2013; however, the Palestinians seem to keep mostly their side of their street, as previously demarcated.  Perhaps this is because the other side contains multiple kiosks staffed by two or three Israeli soldiers, brandishing assault rifles.

One kiosk serves as a checkpoint, regulating entry into the portion of the city where Palestinian pedestrian traffic is completely banned.  Some Palestinians continue to live in this area, but they are barred from leaving their homes through the front door. Instead, they have to develop creative alternatives, such as climbing out a window, walking across rooftops, and eventually ending up on an unpaved road a few blocks away.

The soldiers delay us at this checkpoint for about 20 minutes, letting us pass only after obtaining approval from their commander via phone. At a second checkpoint maybe 200 yards into the street’s Jewish-only portion, we are denied further passage. Under the military law that governs H2, the IDF can arbitrarily declare any area within it a “closed military zone” and completely clear that area. They often invoke this authority at the request of settlers and when activists opposing the occupation show up.

We have to walk up a steep hill and climb some rocks to get to Issa’s house, a detour that would not have been necessary if the IDF had let us proceed.  The call of the muezzin, the melodious chant beckoning Muslims to pray, reverberates through the hills as we ascend. We are surrounded by homes flying the Israeli flag and streets full of soldiers and Israeli military vehicles. At the peak, while we are waiting a few minutes for Issa and his comrades to finish preparing lunch, a contingent of soldiers runs past us, guns drawn across their chests. They stop, and one of them yells something to us through a megaphone, words that the Hebrew speakers in our group tell us are utter nonsense.  Is this a military exercise? Are they trying to intimidate us? Maybe it is just a random activity, with no particular purpose, that these teenagers concocted on the spot.

If you spend a few hours in H2, you don’t need any guides or speeches to tell you that it is a tense and surreal place where violence can break out at any moment. Issa calls Hebron a “ghost town” and YAS has published a pamphlet about the city with that title. But “ghost town” is an understatement and a misnomer, since people do live there—it’s just that everyday life activity is actively and brutally suppressed. I and another delegation member agree that a more accurate characterization would be “The Most Fucked Up Place on Earth.”

Center for Jewish Nonviolence activists working to improve trails in H2 region of Hebron. (Photo: Charlie Zimmerman)

Center for Jewish Nonviolence activist working with resident in H2 region of Hebron. (Photo: Charlie Zimmerman)

‘We are stereotyped as terrorists as chocolate is stereotyped as sweet’

In his talk, Issa provides more detail about Hebron from the residents’ perspective. Palestinians can be arrested or lose their work permits if they complain about settlers; Issa himself has been arrested for doing so after they stole food from his home and desecrated a Palestinian flag on his property. There are 18 checkpoints in H2, with two more under construction, and residents can be held at these for up to three hours, entirely at the discretion of the soldier on duty; for this reason, a younger leader of YAS tells us he has to leave home at 11:00 p.m. to get to an 8:00 a.m class on time in the H1 district. Palestinians are subject to military trials and administrative detention, imprisonment without charge or trial, which does not look anything like a recognizable criminal offense in a normal democracy. Issa himself is scheduled to face trial within the next few months on something like 30 counts, such as “insulting a soldier” and “marching without a permit.”

Soldiers will shoot to kill children approaching them with a knife from 15 feet, and, when the kids die, the soldiers will be celebrated as national heroes. These victims are invariably teenagers (or younger) who feel desperate and suicidal, having not developed coping skills necessary to get through the day, given their circumstances. The heavily-armored soldiers, he notes, could easily disarm a knife-wielding child, or worst case, aim for the legs.

All of this, of course, is just a small slice of the occupation, reflecting the experience of one Palestinian and his associates from only one city.

“We are stereotyped as terrorists as chocolate is stereotyped as sweet,” notes another speaker. That’s right, I think. The Israeli government, a master of misdirection and propaganda, has been successful, especially for the American audience, in framing Palestinian violence as the central issue in this conflict. Not the violence it regularly promulgates itself as a matter of policy. Not settler violence, which is occasionally punished leniently, but far more often completely ignored. Not its violations of Palestinian rights under international law.  Brutal and highly effective and suppressive state violence—unlike the futile responses to it—is never termed terrorism.

Similarly, the Palestinian non-violent resistance is virtually ignored in Western media. Prior to this trip, I had never heard of Issa Amro, even though Amnesty International has advocated for him and he is known as a “Palestinian Gandhi” in activist circles. Many non-violent resistance organizations are active in the West Bank—we worked with more than one. 

Israeli propaganda succeeds by leveraging our unconscious or sometimes conscious fear of the “Scary Brown Other.”  Branding Muslims and Arabs (“not all of them of course”) as terrorists plays well in Peoria.  In other words, the continued support for Israeli policy and willful obliviousness to the brutality of its occupation is driven by and depends directly on straight-up, out and out racism.

And, in my opinion, a similar dynamic drives the end-game strategy:  The ultimate goal might be to destroy hope and provoke desperate violent responses, which will then be used as an excuse to take complete control of the West Bank and Gaza. Though other commentators have proposed something similar, this is just my own conjecture. No other plausible alternative comes to mind. There are no signs of any interest in proposing a just solution; the status quo of lording over a growing antagonistic population is not sustainable, and much of what I observed or learned during my week in the West Bank feels a lot more like a provocation than “self-defense” or anything else.

Of course, it would be naïve to assume that violent resistance does not exist. But violence is never placed in the context of the reality that it occurs on both sides and that one actor is a colonial power with massive firepower at its disposal. As implied by its name, the Center for Jewish Nonviolence does not advocate, support, or condone violence, regardless of the context, and neither do I.  But frankly, if everything that I’ve seen or heard about in my time in Hebron had happened to me, the thought of lashing out violently would certainly enter my mind.

“Existence is Resistance”

This is a slogan of the Palestinian non-violent resistance and describes its strategy in a nutshell. Each Palestinian activist I heard from experiences the occupation as a means of effectively ending their existence as functioning human beings.  Going to school or work, visiting friends, working to beautify their neighborhoods, simply walking down their own streets: the barriers to all of these activities is so great that reasonable and common responses include rarely leaving home, moving away, or even committing suicide. But, instead, members of the resistance—with great courage and at a great cost– choose to simply live their lives.

Our group observed this, heard about it, and on the third day we were in Hebron, experienced a small taste of it. We were working on weeding and cleaning some of the dirt trails in Issa’s neighborhood, those that residents must use as detours because they are banned from walking on some of the paved and more direct routes to the rest of the city. Residents do not have the time, manpower, or tools to keep these routes free of weeds, and they are also littered with trash that settlers throw. One of the paths is just below the home of the far-right Israeli politician Baruch Marzel. Shortly after we begin work, he appeared on the lawn of his home and, with a big grin on his face, started photographing us, presumably to capture the evidence of our “crime.”  He then called someone on his cell phone; shortly afterward, two IDF soldiers arrived.  They presented papers to Issa, who engaged them in a discussion in Hebrew. We learned later that they had declared our work area a closed military zone and ordered us to leave. Issa asked them for proof that this declaration was handled properly and legally under military law such as it is; he reviewed the order and discussed it by phone with the soldiers’ commander. By the time he had fully vetted the order and we had no choice but to leave, we had finished our work. A small victory.

The Israeli government justifies its policies in part based on its claim that the country faces an “existential threat.” But in Tel Aviv and West Jerusalem, there are no checkpoints, no flags of a foreign or occupying power flying in every direction, and no settlers who can summon a soldier to harass residents on a passing whim. At night, people sit in bars, drink, laugh, and watch soccer on outdoor televisions.  In the week I spent in these cities, I did not feel anything like the sense of palpable tension and fear our delegation felt walking the streets of Hebron.

The widespread, international acceptance of this existential threat narrative represents another triumph of Israeli propaganda. In the words of Issa: “Israel has all the power, but acts as if it were afraid of a 15-year-old girl.”

Occupation is Not Our Judaism

Issa remains hopeful and optimistic. One reason, he says, is the presence of our delegation and others like it. It shows Palestinian activists and other observers that not all Jews support oppression and occupation. Many Palestinians I spoke with did not, in fact, distinguish “Jew” from settler or occupier until about ten years ago, but now they all emphasize that their struggle is with the occupation, not Judaism. 

Issa also believes that as activists return home and report what they have seen and learned, support for anti-occupation movements around the world will increase. However, engendering this support among Israeli and Diaspora Jews remains challenging.  When I told friends and relatives that I was going to Israel to work with other Jews for peace, the ones that did not call me “traitor” or question my sanity generally assumed that as Jews, we would be working to support the Israeli government. The Jews in my suburban California town include lukewarm supporters of the Israeli government, card-carrying and convention-attending AIPAC members, and messianic believers in the notion that the state of Israel represents the fulfillment of God’s covenant with the Jews to return the Holy Land in its entirety. I am not aware of any members of or sympathizers with the “Jewish Resistance” other than myself.

As for Israelis, a recent survey found that more than 60 percent of Israelis object to the word “occupation” to describe Israel’s control of the West Bank, and more than 50 percent do not believe that settlements are an obstacle to peace. I spoke with some who, without admitting so outright, seem to acknowledge that occupation is morally indefensible, but  they are more concerned with why the world “singles them out.”  “What’s happening with the Kurds is Turkey is much worse, but no one talks about that,” one tells me.

Then there is the question of whether Jewish activism can backfire, doing more harm than good. For instance, Issa notes that settlers will hold off on exacting revenge for activists’ presence until the latter return home—a point brought home a few days later by Baruch Marzel’s gleeful documentation of our “criminal activity.” Issa assures us, however, that YAS can deal with any repercussions, which are outweighed by positives anyway.

Sumud Freedom Camp.(Photo: Charlie Zimmerman)

I also wondered whether our partners might view us as “occupation tourists” who drop in for a few days, plant some trees, return home to our comfortable lives feeling good about ourselves, and leaving the residents alone to cope with the day to day indignities of the occupation on their own.  But because they had more information about the amazing action that would occur a few days later (to prevent the information from leaking, CJNV leadership did not provide us details of this action until the day before it began), these musings probably reflected more of my own anxieties than our partners’ beliefs.  In coordination with YAS and other Palestinian resistance groups, along with three Israeli organizations, we built the Sumud Freedom camp in the village of Sarura, located in the South Hebron Hills. The IDF forcibly evicted Palestinians living in Sarura from their cave-homes about 20 years ago, and our mission was to rebuild these homes and move one of the former villagers, Fadal Amar, and his family back in.

We brought a generator in, rebuilt walls and floors, cleaned and demarcated roads, and cleared fields. On the first night we were harassed by the residents of the Maon settlement, which is connected to electrical, cell phone, and water infrastructure, even though it is supposedly illegal even under Israeli law. They circled the encampments on motorized three-wheelers for about fifteen minutes and then left, wishing us a Good Shabbat. 

The next night, the IDF invaded and dismantled the camp, which the activists and resident family promptly rebuilt.  This cycle was repeated twice, and as of this writing, two weeks later, the camp is still standing and the Amar family is still living there.

According to the schedule of activities CJNV provided in advance, we were supposed to engage in a non-specified direct action for one day, a Friday, return to our hotel for Shabbat on Saturday, discuss and process the work on Sunday, and leave for Jerusalem on Monday.  Instead, many of the activists camped out in Sarura Thursday night to ensure an early start and stayed straight through Monday. A smaller number, despite admonitions from our leaders that the action was over, stayed through the next week. 

Clearly, the term “occupation tourist” does not apply to these justice-seekers committed to opposing Israeli policy and upholding Jewish values.  They are living proof that these two goals are in no way contradictory—they take Judaism very seriously (there were at least ten rabbis in our delegation) and believe their religion compels them to relentlessly pursue justice for non-Jewish inhabitants of Israel.

I am a cynical, agnostic person by nature, but my experience with these hopeful and faithful activists, both on the Jewish and Palestinian side, moved me. The level of commitment I observed, as well as the increase in the visibility of and support for Jewish organizations opposing the occupation, such as J Street, IfNotNow, and Jewish Voice for Peace suggests to me that a sea change in Jewish attitudes towards Israel and the occupation is underway. I predict that in five years, the majority of Diaspora Jews will support the Jewish resistance to the occupation.

Palestinians should be the owners of their struggle and resistance, but the occupation will not end unless and until a majority of Jews around the world actively oppose it.  When this happens, we will permanently extinguish the odious notion that opposing Israeli policy equates to anti-Semitism. And history shows that the struggles of colonized and oppressed peoples do not succeed unless enough White people lend their support—as disgusting as it is, powerful people and institutions value the opinions, experiences, and safety of fair-skinned individuals over others. 

“Occupation is Not Our Judaism” is one of the slogans of the Center for Jewish Nonviolence. But in addition to merely saying this, printing it on their t-shirts, and using it as a Twitter hashtag, they live this principle with their bodies and their hearts, and that gives me hope.

About Charlie Zimmerman

Charlie Zimmerman is a software developer, writer and long-time human rights activist from New York City who currently lives in Agoura Hills, CA. He participated in the Center for Jewish Nonviolence delegation in Palestine, summer 2017. On Twitter as czimmerman19.

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100 Responses

  1. Emet
    June 10, 2017, 6:19 pm

    Hebron was once an all Jewish city before the Muslim invaders came along. The three forefathers of Jewish people are buried in Hebron. That’s Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Muslims also claim connection to the same three, however Islam came into this world 700 years after the Jewish Temple was destroyed on the Temple Mount and long after the three were buried there. Sounds to me that some people want and took what others already had. The non Jewish population of the region at the time were either Bedouin or simple village farmers and had no collective identity outside of the mud huts. Sorry, not all their homes were made of mud. Some were made of stone.

    • gamal
      June 10, 2017, 6:45 pm

      “before the Muslim invaders came along”

      ah it was the Muslims who expelled the Jews not the Romans, do you not think you should get your story straight? Never any Christians in al Khalil? Will you never run out of bullshit, its not been the bronze age for the longest time.

      ( Khalilis are an oppressed Palestinian minority the butt of ‘village idiot’ jokes and now a symbol of patient resistance)

    • echinococcus
      June 10, 2017, 6:54 pm

      Who gives a flying flick about any of that, Hemet? Do you have personal papers proving that you are a direct descendant, within a couple generations, of the supposed dinosaurs who supposedly squatted in those hills? Let’s see personal papers or be so good as to hold it.

      This is Palestine and you are not entitled to live in it. Period.

      • RoHa
        June 10, 2017, 10:29 pm

        “personal papers proving that you are a direct descendant,”

        And recognized as such by the Royal College of Heralds.

    • Mooser
      June 10, 2017, 6:56 pm

      “Emet”,when I read comments from Zionist supporters like you, all my doubts about the future of Zionism disappear!

      • Jerry Hirsch
        June 10, 2017, 9:57 pm

        Mooser, Emma’s comment is factual. The authenticity of the Cave of the Patriarchs is one of few issues both Arabs and Jews agree.

        The fact that it’s located in Hebron in the West Bank is part of a mountain of evidence that proves the Jewish claim to what is erroneously called Palestine, is in reality the birthplace of their civilization and that their right of return is just.

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs

      • RoHa
        June 11, 2017, 12:19 am

        “The fact that it’s located in Hebron in the West Bank is part of a mountain of evidence that proves the Jewish claim to what is erroneously called Palestine …and that their right of return is just”

        How does the presence of the tombs of A,I, and J prove that the claim is just? Please spell out the chain of reasoning.

        Why is it erroneous to call Palestine “Palestine”?

        “the birthplace of their [Jews] civilization”

        No such thing as their civilization.

      • Mooser
        June 11, 2017, 12:32 am

        “Emma’s comment is factual.”

        First of all, his name isn’t “Emma” He is called “Emetic”. Try and get it right.

        “Jewish claim”? What nonsense. Go sell that load of clams to somebody else.

      • echinococcus
        June 11, 2017, 2:03 am

        Hirsch,

        May I call you Bambi? That would be the right term of endearment for a cutesy deer that can make factual some Patriarchs who, I suppose, lived before Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, when the Archaeopteryx used to darken the sky.

        Yessiree, it’s factual. It’s written right there in the Bible!

      • CigarGod
        June 12, 2017, 9:50 am

        Hi Jerry,
        So the original, prehistoric Jews…A, I and J swam out of the primorial mediterranean and climbed up onto the beach at Ashkelon and made their way to Hebron and we can find their fossils in The Cave of the Patriarchs?

    • RoHa
      June 10, 2017, 8:18 pm

      “Hebron was once an all Jewish city before the Muslim invaders came along.”

      And no part of Palestine was “Jewish” before Abraham came along and bought a bit from the natives. What is the relevance of this ancient history?

      “Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Muslims also claim connection to the same three … ”

      Muslims claim a religious connection, just as Jews do. Seems just as good a connection.
      (Or, by ” forefathers”, did you mean to claim that all Jews are direct biological descendants of A,I, and J?)

      “Sounds to me that some people want and took what others already had.”

      You are talking about the Zionists taking Palestine from the Palestinians?

      ” The non Jewish population of the region at the time ”

      By “region” do you mean just the Hebron district, or the whole of Palestine? And does “at the time” mean the period from the burial of Abraham to the arrival of the Muslims, or just some part of that?

      “were either Bedouin or simple village farmers”

      And how do you know this?

      ” and had no collective identity ”

      Why is this “collective identity” thing so important to Zionists? Do you think that people without a “collective identity” have no rights, or that they don’t really exist?

      • Mooser
        June 11, 2017, 12:48 am

        “Why is this “collective identity” thing so important to Zionists?”

        Because when collective identity isn’t imposed on us by a society which chooses to make that distinction and assign the roles, the burden of creating that collective identity falls back on us. And that’s not a job we are used to.
        Look it’s pretty simple, “RoHa”. It gets much harder to answer the question “Why and how should I be a Jew?” when the answer isn’t “Because they will never let you be anything else.”

      • RoHa
        June 11, 2017, 3:54 am

        Fair enough for Jews, Mooser, but why do Zionists think that everyone else should have a collective identity as well?

      • Talkback
        June 11, 2017, 8:16 am

        RoHa: “Why is this “collective identity” thing so important to Zionists?”

        Because their perversion of the right to self determination is based on identitiy and not on habitual residency or citizenship. That’s the only way they can claim that “Jews” have a right to a state in historic Palestine, but not the actual haitual residents and citizens of mandated Palestine.That’s the reason why they can blow up the number of Jews in 1948 allthough more than half of them weren’t citizens of Palestine and therefore didn’t have ANY right to self determination in Palestine.

      • Mooser
        June 11, 2017, 6:50 pm

        “but why do Zionists think that everyone else should have a collective identity as well?”

        Projection.

      • Emet
        June 15, 2017, 2:42 pm

        talknic, up until the end of WWI, the Ottoman Empire owned and controlled the region called Palestine. And the Arabs in Palestine had no complaints. Life was good and dandy. Did the Ottoman Empire have rights to the land. Of course not. Did the nation of Palestine have rights to the land. Of course not as there was no nation of Palestine, ever. There was no people collective group who called themselves Palestinians. Did not exist. Go check your history. Now the Ottoman’s supported the wrong side during WWI and their side fortunately lost. Now go read up about the Balfour Deceleration and even more importantly go and read up about the San Remo Conference. Jews did not colonize anything. Jews have always been in the area you call Palestine. More Jews came home. That’s what happened and the Arab s chose violence as a reaction.

      • eljay
        June 15, 2017, 3:18 pm

        || Emet: … Jews did not colonize anything. Jews have always been in the area you call Palestine. More Jews came home. ||

        Some Jews have always been in the area of geographic Palestine. They were part of the indigenous population of the region. They did not colonize anything.

        “More Jews” – foreign Jews – emigrated from their homes and homelands all over the world to geographic Palestine. The ones who went there to live peacefully among the indigenous population of the region did not colonize anything.

        The ones who went there to help realize the unjust and immoral Zionist “dream” of a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of the region did colonize – and continue to colonize – Palestine.

      • Mooser
        June 15, 2017, 4:23 pm

        “Now go read up about the Balfour Deceleration

        Yeah, that’ll put the brakes on your anti-Zionism!

        ” and even more importantly go and read up about the San Remo Conference.”

        Maybe we can go ‘flying down to Remo, where there’s rhythm and rhyme!’

        Can I start calling “Emet” ‘Rip van Yukel’ now?

      • talknic
        June 15, 2017, 4:54 pm

        @ Emet June 15, 2017, 2:42 pm

        “talknic, up until the end of WWI, the Ottoman Empire owned and controlled the region called Palestine. And the Arabs in Palestine had no complaints. Life was good and dandy. Did the Ottoman Empire have rights to the land. Of course not. “

        “Of course not” … says who? The Ottoman Empire was attacked by countries who were not from or of the region. At the time the Ottoman Empire had the same legitimacy as any other country in the world.

        “Did the nation of Palestine have rights to the land. Of course not as there was no nation of Palestine, ever”

        Strange, the 1922 LoN Mandate for PALESTINE, adopted after foreigners attacked the Ottoman empire, Article 7 and the subsequent adoption of the Palestine Nationality Law of 1925 per Article 7 of the Mandate for PALESTINE tells us that Palestine was a Nation State where Jews could acquire PALESTINIAN citizenship.

        ” There was no people collective group who called themselves Palestinians. Did not exist.”

        The Palestinian Nationality Law adopted 1925 per the LoN Mandate Article 7 tells us you’re full of sh*t

        “Go check your history.”

        Best you check your ZioPoo theories before you drown in it Emet http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp#art7

        “Now the Ottoman’s supported the wrong side during WWI and their side fortunately lost”

        The wrong side? The Ottoman’s were attacked. Those who start wars are the ‘wrong’ side, even though they ‘won’ their invasive war

        “Now go read up about the Balfour Deceleration “

        Quote where it says a Jewish State. Fact is you can’t because it didn’t.

        Fact is the two British White Papers emphasized and the Zionist Federation agreed there was no mention of a Jewish ‘state’

        British White Paper (1922) ” It is also necessary to point out that the Zionist Commission in Palestine, now termed the Palestine Zionist Executive, has not desired to possess, and does not possess, any share in the general administration of the country. Nor does the special position assigned to the Zionist Organization in Article IV of the Draft Mandate for Palestine imply any such functions. That special position relates to the measures to be taken in Palestine affecting the Jewish population, and contemplates that the organization may assist in the general development of the country, but does not entitle it to share in any degree in its government.
        Further, it is contemplated that the status of all citizens of Palestine in the eyes of the law shall be Palestinian, and it has never been intended that they, or any section of them, should possess any other juridical status. So far as the Jewish population of Palestine are concerned it appears that some among them are apprehensive that His Majesty’s Government may depart from the policy embodied in the Declaration of 1917. It is necessary, therefore, once more to affirm that these fears are unfounded, and that that Declaration, re affirmed by the Conference of the Principle Allied Powers at San Remo and again in the Treaty of Sevres, is not susceptible of change. “

        and

        British White Paper (1939)
        His Majesty’s Government are unable at present to foresee the exact constitutional forms which government in Palestine will eventually take, but their objective is self government, and they desire to see established ultimately an independent Palestine State. It should be a State in which the two peoples in Palestine, Arabs and Jews, share authority in government in such a way that the essential interests of each are shared.

        “and even more importantly go and read up about the San Remo Conference”

        Stupidity really is your forte. Only a complete moron would reference something that completely contradicts their moronic ZioCrap argument. Do you gargle before you swallow the ZioPoop you’re required to regurgitate?

        Article 7 LoN Mandate for Palestine. The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp#art7

        ” Jews did not colonize anything”

        Strange, the Zionist Federation set up the Jewish Colonial Trust, specifically to loan specifically poor Jews money specifically at interest on condition that they specifically put themselves and their families on the front lines in the Zionist colonization of Palestine http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8632-jewish-colonial-trust-the-judische-colonialbank

        ” Jews have always been in the area you call Palestine. More Jews came home. That’s what happened and the Arab s chose violence as a reaction”

        Some Jews did remain in the region. However, it doesn’t give Israel the right to any territories outside its proclaimed and Internationally recognized borders http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf

        Of course I don’t expect you to read or take notice of the facts, however thanks for the opportunity to yet again show genuinely interested readers what idiots and liars are attracted to the Zionist Federation’s vile project.

        Keep up the good work Emet. You’re doing a great job! Keep swallowing…

      • Talkback
        June 15, 2017, 7:04 pm

        Talknic: “However, it doesn’t give Israel the right to any territories outside its proclaimed and Internationally recognized borders …”

        ROFL. Talknic talking about rights. The only thing that counts for you is recognition. So how come you fail to recognize that Israel was recognized as a UN member after its statement that its borders will be the result of negotiations?

      • talknic
        June 15, 2017, 11:48 pm

        @ Talkback June 15, 2017, 7:04 pm

        “The only thing that counts for you is recognition. “

        And all that recognition entails, including adherence to the law, UN Charter etc, all of which Israel has ignored

        “So how come you fail to recognize that Israel was recognized as a UN member after its statement that its borders will be the result of negotiations?”

        Provide the statement. Thx.

        Meanwhile Israel as a UN Member State in Aug 1949 was still trying to claim territories it had under Military Occupation. The Israeli claim was rebuffed citing the Armistice Agreements http://wp.me/pDB7k-l5#israels-intentions

        Furthermore, the armistice agreements were NOT Between Israel and Palestine.

        BTW The Palestinians have no legal obligation what so ever to forgo any of their rights in negotiations and Israel has no legal, moral or ethical rights to demand anything of the Palestinians.

        Negotiations, as with the Egypt / Israeli Peace Treaty (referring to UNSC res 242) , are about how and when Israel would withdraw before peace was assumed. http://wp.me/pDB7k-ZZ

      • Emet
        June 16, 2017, 5:27 am

        talknic: You seem very cocky with your history. You might want to show a little humility?
        The San Remo Conference gave Jews the sole right to settle in all the area west of the Jordan River, including the West Bank and all of Jerusalem. Both houses of congress voted to support this. A few months after San Remo, Churchill chose to ignore the decision made at San Remo and effectively stole 80% of the land away from the Jewish people.

      • Emet
        June 16, 2017, 7:12 am

        talknic: The Ottoman Empire chose to side with Germany and entered the Great War by attacking Russia in 1914. And you say the Ottoman’s were attacked and as such had rights in Palestine? The Ottoman Empire ruled over more territory than the Roman Empire. Are you also saying that the Ottomans still have rights over all that territory?

      • RoHa
        June 16, 2017, 7:52 am

        “Did the Ottoman Empire have rights to the land. Of course not.”

        You don’t say what rights you mean.

        The Ottomans had the right to rule the land, since it was part of a state as legitimate as any other of the time.

        “Did the nation of Palestine have rights to the land. Of course not as there was no nation of Palestine, ever. There was no people collective group who called themselves Palestinians.”

        I’m going to guess that by “nation” you mean what I call n-nation. You can read about that term here
        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/putting-israels-humanitarian/#comment-770132

        I does not matter whether or not there was a “people /collective group who called themselves Palestinians.”

        What does matter is that there were people living in Palestine as citizens of the Ottoman Empire, and then as citizens of the Mandated State of Palestine. Those people had (a) the right to live there, and (b) the right to establish an independent state. Both these rights apply to all the residents, not to particular “peoples/collective groups/n-nations”. Merely being a member of a people /collective group/n-nation does not give either of those rights.

        (I have argued for this position at exhaustive and exhausting length on MW. If you disagree, either present counter arguments or track down my arguments and find flaws in them.)

        “Jews have always been in the area you call Palestine.”

        Native Jews, native Christians and native Muslims have been in the area for a very long time, but that does not give European Jews, American Christians, or Indonesian Muslims any rights in Palestine.

        “Jews did not colonize anything.”

        European and American Jews did. They came into the land with the avowed intent of taking it away from the natives and setting up their own state there.

      • Emet
        June 16, 2017, 8:07 am

        talknic, the term Palestine was one shoved down the throats of those living in the region. The local Arab population never saw themselves as Palestinian. The Muslims saw themselves as belonging to the Caliphate. Plus there was major migration of Arab workers to the area and these same Arabs saw themselves as Syrian, Iraqi, Arabian etc. Everything but not Palestinian. I believe you are the one who is full of it. And one cannot colonize your own home, however much you want this to be the case.

      • Mooser
        June 16, 2017, 12:32 pm

        . “A few months after San Remo, Churchill chose to ignore the decision made at San Remo and effectively stole 80% of the land away from the Jewish people.”

        That Churchill tried to effect a Balfour Deceleration! He was putting the brakes on Zionism.

      • talknic
        June 17, 2017, 4:20 am

        @ Emet June 16, 2017, 5:27 am

        “You seem very cocky with your history. You might want to show a little humility?”

        Oh WOW!!! If I show a little humility Israel will suddenly end occupation? Pay compensation? Withdraw from all non-Israeli territories, adhere at last to International Law? Is that what you’re trying to say?

        “The San Remo Conference gave Jews the sole right to settle in all the area west of the Jordan River, including the West Bank and all of Jerusalem. Both houses of congress voted to support this. A few months after San Remo, Churchill chose to ignore the decision made at San Remo and effectively stole 80% of the land away from the Jewish people.”

        So what? Israel proclaimed its borders effective at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time). The Jewish State has not since legally acquired any further territories by any agreement or legal instrument

      • talknic
        June 17, 2017, 5:34 am

        @ Emet June 16, 2017, 7:12 am

        “The Ottoman Empire chose to side with Germany and entered the Great War by attacking Russia in 1914.”

        “And you say the Ottoman’s were attacked and as such had rights in Palestine?”

        Quote me verbatim.

        ” The Ottoman Empire ruled over more territory than the Roman Empire. “

        So what? It’s irrelevant to the legal status of the State of Israel since 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) and its illegal activities in territories outside the State of Israel.

        “Are you also saying that the Ottomans still have rights over all that territory?

        I’m saying what I’m saying, not the idiotsh*te you’d like me to have said. It’s simple. Just read what’s been written.

      • Talkback
        June 17, 2017, 12:38 pm

        Sheqer: “The San Remo Conference gave Jews the sole right to settle in all the area west of the Jordan River, including the West Bank and all of Jerusalem. Both houses of congress voted to support this. A few months after San Remo, Churchill chose to ignore the decision made at San Remo and effectively stole 80% of the land away from the Jewish people.””

        The San Remo resolution simply stated that a national home for the Jewish people should be established in Palestine and should be of a national home for the Jewish people and hat nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.

        The Mandate for Palestine which was confirmed by the very same League of Nation (including other regulations for Transjordan) delared in article 6 that the “Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.”

        So there has never been a 1.) rJewish RIGHT to settle 2.) in all the areas west of the Jordan River.

        And Churchill couldn’t hardly steal anything than Jews didn’t even posess besides their private land. When it comes to stealing you should blame the Zionists who had only acquired up to 3% of Palestine in 1948 plus the other 3% that were privately owned by Jews. You very well know that the rest was simply taken by force, expulsion, looting and dispossession.

      • Talkback
        June 17, 2017, 12:47 pm

        Emet: “talknic, the term Palestine was one shoved down the throats of those living in the region.”

        Maybe because of Zionist interests, Emet? Was it not the case, that the Mandate for Palestine was also shoved down their throats without consulting the population?

        Being a hypocrite with a colonial mindset you don’t even have a problem with the fact that the San Remo Conference or the UN’s partition resolution was shoved down the throats of the Palestinians, right? When it’s good for the Jews you support anything that’s being shoved down the throats of Nonjews, right?

      • Talkback
        June 17, 2017, 12:54 pm

        Talknic: “Provide the statement”

        I hope that this is the last time I’m quoting this text:
        “Mr. Eban then stated the views of his Government on the boundary question, remarking that they did not seem to constitute a major obstacle on the road to a settlement. The fact that an Arab State had not arisen in the part of Palestine envisaged by the resolution of 29 November 1947, as well as the circumstances of war and military occupation, rendered essential a process of peaceful adjustment of the territorial provisions laid down in that resolution. The General Assembly itself had twice endorsed the need of such a peaceful adjustment and its representatives had even from time to time made proposals for effecting changes in the territorial dispositions of that resolution. The view expounded by the Israeli Government during the first part of the third session 11/ was that the adjustment should be made not by arbitrary changes imposed from outside, but through agreements freely negotiated by the Governments concerned. That principle had commended itself to the overwhelming majority of the General Assembly which had declined to endorse any specific territorial changes and had dealt with the problem in paragraph 5 of resolution 194 (III) which called upon Governments and authorities concerned to extend the scope of the negotiations provided for in the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 and to seek agreement by negotiations conducted either with the Conciliation Commission or directly with a view to a final settlement of all questions outstanding between them.

        Israel interpreted that resolution as a directive to the Governments concerned to settle their territorial and other differences and claims by a process of negotiation. It was understood that the Conciliation Commission shared that interpretation and had indicated its willingness to commence boundary discussions at an early stage of the meetings in Lausanne. In that connexion Israel drew encouragement from the success of the armistice negotiations which had led to the establishment of agreed demarcation lines between the military forces of the Governments concerned. Those agreements had been reached through free discussion and reciprocal concession. The United Nations mediating agencies had attempted to lay down no fixed principles but to leave the parties to a process of unfettered negotiation, having in mind the general interest of peace and stability rather than the absolute assertion of unilateral claims. It was to be presumed that the same process would be followed by the parties in the forthcoming boundary discussion.

        Mr. Eban thought that the General Assembly would rejoice in any territorial dispositions which rested upon the agreement and consent of the parties concerned. Membership in the United Nations and the consequent protection of the Charter would enable the Government of Israel to see its prospects of territorial security in a more hopeful light and would thus contribute to the rapid conclusion of agreements. The Commission’s view that a settlement of the question of boundaries was essential for a permanent solution of the refugee question reinforced the need for the urgent institution of peace discussions.”

        https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/85255a0a0010ae82852555340060479d/1db943e43c280a26052565fa004d8174?OpenDocument#Mr.%20EBAN%20(Israel)%20understood%20tha

        Are you going to respond?

      • RoHa
        June 17, 2017, 10:29 pm

        “And Churchill couldn’t hardly steal anything than Jews didn’t even posess ”

        “And Churchill could hardly steal …”, surely.

      • RoHa
        June 17, 2017, 10:33 pm

        “And one cannot colonize your own home, however much you want this to be the case.”

        But Palestine was not the home of the European and American Zionists, regardless of however much you want this to be the case.

      • echinococcus
        June 18, 2017, 12:27 pm

        RoHa,

        Why, you never give up. You must be a furriner. In American linguistics or rather language as practiced in the US of A, playing dead and rolling over at the first use of an enormity is a positive value.

        You no longer have to wait until the use of a given solecism is firmly established and only a few fossils continue the old usage. It’s either give up immediately and follow whatever ignorant fad is on, or then be branded “elitist” –and that doesn’t mean belonging to the best and brightest, either.

    • Annie Robbins
      June 11, 2017, 1:28 am

      Hebron was once an all Jewish city before the Muslim invaders came along . The three forefathers of Jewish people are buried in Hebron. That’s Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Muslims also claim connection to the same three, however Islam came into this world 700 years after the Jewish Temple was destroyed

      when you say “Muslims also claim connection to the same three” are you suggesting Ishmael perhaps wasn’t Abraham’s son? yikes! either way:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham

      The Abraham story cannot be definitively related to any specific time, and it is widely agreed that the patriarchal age, along with the exodus and the period of the judges, is a late literary construct that does not relate to any period in actual history.[4] A common hypothesis among scholars is that it was composed in the early Persian period (late 6th century BCE) as a result of tensions between Jewish landowners who had stayed in Judah during the Babylonian captivity and traced their right to the land through their “father Abraham”, and the returning exiles who based their counter-claim on Moses and the Exodus tradition.[5]

      more here: https://books.google.com/books?id=hd28MdGNyTYC&pg=PA41#v=onepage&q=Abraham%20patriarchal%20%22known%20history%22&f=false

      • Emet
        June 11, 2017, 4:33 pm

        I am glad you presented a link here to a book who’s author used the Hebrew Bible as it’s main source. How many times have you discredited the Hebrew Bible in your posts and here you promote the same? Women’s prerogative? The more you dig into available resources and sources, the more the Jewish claims are solidified in the minds of the doubters. Palestinian Arabs as a collective identity is barely 50 years old and those on this propaganda pumping website will have you believe that there was a people called Palestinian Arabs way back then, when reality shows otherwise. Of course some Arab in some village somewhere has rights. Put some of these Arabs together and no, they do not have rights over the holiest site for Jews.

      • Annie Robbins
        June 11, 2017, 5:37 pm

        How many times have you discredited the Hebrew Bible in your posts and here you promote the same? Women’s prerogative?

        i’m sort of an equal opportunity discrediter when it comes to relying on biblical texts as accurate historical documents. my point, was even a book who’s author used the Hebrew Bible as it’s main source, stated:

        “it is now widely agreed that the so called “patriarchal/ ancestral period” is a later literary construct, not a period in the actual history in the ancient world. The same is the case for “exodus” and the “wilderness period” and more and more widely for the “period of the judges” ”

        you can read more about “the general construct of movements within biblical stories” from the same source here: https://books.google.com/books?id=hd28MdGNyTYC&pg=PA41#v=onepage&q=literary%20construct&f=false

        this has nothing to do with me being a woman or having a “woman’s prerogative”. as a person who believes most religions can serve the good of mankind and most religious people are not fanatical or fundamentalist but use their faith in positive ways to serve mankind and live moral, fruitful lives, i myself am not religious (albeit i do have spiritual beliefs — and faith in them). i believe one can (and should) respect people of faith without believing in another’s religion.

        The more you dig into available resources and sources, the more the Jewish claims are solidified in the minds of the doubters.

        i think that’s a fantasy. i could just as easily say “The more you dig into available resources and sources, the more the atheist claims are solidified in the minds of the doubters.”

        those on this propaganda pumping website will have you believe that there was a people called Palestinian Arabs way back then, when reality shows otherwise.

        clearly, your reality and my reality are quite different. but either way, the iron age is long gone. if you choose to take literally, literary constructs scholars widely agree were constructed much later, as a means to guide real estate deals in the modern world, regarding who owns what land according to your belief in god, so be it. but calling it “reality” doesn’t make it real for anyone outside your cult.

        ciao.

        Video: Israeli settler lecturing Palestinian farmers — ‘You’ll all be our slaves, if you’re worthy, if you behave well – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2013/02/israeli-lecturing-palestinian/#sthash.S5WUcIHx.dpuf

        click “cc” for the english translation

      • Mooser
        June 11, 2017, 6:48 pm

        “Emet” this isn’t fair. Gosh darn it, there’s a stereotype of Jewish intelligence you should try to live up to!

      • RoHa
        June 12, 2017, 12:06 am

        “those on this propaganda pumping website will have you believe that there was a people called Palestinian Arabs way back then,”

        Who will have you believe that? And why does that ancient history matter now?

        ” Of course some Arab in some village somewhere has rights.”

        All Arabs everywhere have the same moral rights as all Jews.

        “Put some of these Arabs together and no, they do not have rights over the holiest site for Jews.”

        Then neither do Jews.

      • Emet
        June 12, 2017, 12:55 am

        No Annie, you are an “equal opportunity discrediter” only when it comes to Jews, and only Jews who are pro-Israel. You don’t have anything to say about Islamic texts and you behave as if the Palestinians are an island in the Islamic world as if Palestinian national aspirations draw no inspiration from Islamic sources. How about some true balance for a change? Not going to happen as your very essence, and your job, depends on it.

      • Emet
        June 12, 2017, 1:20 am

        In the video posted, the older man says in Arabic that because of Mohammad, all the land is his.
        The English subtitles skip this section. It’s called selective discreditation.

      • Mooser
        June 12, 2017, 12:20 pm

        Ah, “Emet”, every time you post, my worries about the future of Zionism disappear.

      • talknic
        June 13, 2017, 6:21 am

        ZioIdiots just don’t get it. Not part of their stupid brief…

        @ Emet June 12, 2017, 1:20 am

        “In the video posted, the older man says in Arabic that because of Mohammad, all the land is his.
        The English subtitles skip this section. It’s called selective discreditation”

        Completely irrelevant to Israel’s obligations to binding International Law, the UN Charter and relevant Geneva Conventions, by which Israel is in breach of its legal obligations outside of its recognized borders and under which Israel is required to withdraw from all non-Israeli territories, taking all its citizens with it

      • Emet
        June 13, 2017, 7:13 am

        Mooser, your time would be better spent trying to convince your Muslim and Arab brothers and sisters that it’s time to accept others and to share instead of criticizing my Zionism and more importantly, denying history that supports Jewish claims. It once belonged to Jews. It has been returned to Jews. Now live with this and try to find ways to work together.

      • Mooser
        June 13, 2017, 12:06 pm

        “Emet”, I am an American Jew. It’s “my Zionism” too.*

        (But I very much appreciate the “your Muslim and Arab brothers and sisters”. Thanks)

        *”American Jews are all that can save Israel from the ideology that envelops it. That change won’t come from Israelis.” http://mondoweiss.net/2017/06/the-israelis/#sthash.TVq6bAi5.dpuf

      • Annie Robbins
        June 13, 2017, 1:33 pm

        It has been returned to Jews. Now live with this

        have you looked at a photo of jerusalem lately? see that prominent golden dome in the middle of the scenery? it’s not jewish, live with that.

        No Annie, you are an “equal opportunity discrediter” only when it comes to Jews, and only Jews who are pro-Israel.

        that is a lie. when i state i am “an equal opportunity discrediter when it comes to relying on biblical texts as accurate historical documents” this applies to all biblical texts and you will not find anything to refute that in my archives.

        you behave as if the Palestinians are an island in the Islamic world as if Palestinian national aspirations draw no inspiration from Islamic sources.

        i behave as if? i understand your disappointment at not being able to provide a rebuttal, to answer my questions or refute my points requires you to devolve into ad hominems and discussion of my so called ‘behavior’ including wild allegations providing no quotes, no source, nothing. so be it, color me unimpressed.

      • RoHa
        June 14, 2017, 3:11 am

        Emet, it is the Zionists who will not share. Before the establishment of Israel, the Palestinians (Muslim, Christian, and Jew) said that they were willing to share the country with the European Jews who had settled, and even to make Hebrew an official language of Palestine. But the Zionists did not want to share. They wanted as big a slice for themselves as they could manage, with the aim of ultimately taking the lot.

      • Emet
        June 14, 2017, 4:20 am

        There I was thinking that diamonds are a girls best friend, but no, it appears that gold is the new black. The dome of the rock was black just 50+ years ago. King Hussein of Jordan paid for the covering to be made in gold plate. The addition of the gold is a likened to the kiss of death. Look beyond the gold Annie.

      • Annie Robbins
        June 14, 2017, 11:44 am

        I was thinking that diamonds are a girls best friend …..

        the 2nd time in this brief exchange emit has referenced my gender as a diversion tactic. interesting.

      • Mooser
        June 14, 2017, 11:48 am

        Diamonds are a girl’s best friend….Look beyond the gold, “Annie”

        Oh, “Emetic”, you have no idea how your comments comfort me. I lose all doubts about Zionism when I read your comments.

      • Mooser
        June 14, 2017, 1:08 pm

        “the 2nd time in this brief exchange emit has referenced my gender as a diversion tactic. interesting.”

        I’m becoming more and more convinced: After not even the Zionist sites will put up with them, and nobody wants them on their Facebook page, they come here.

      • Emet
        June 14, 2017, 2:28 pm

        Mooser, fortunately the future of Zionism rests neither in your hands nor mine. And with 70% assimilation rate of secular American Jews, you are a dinosaur in its last breaths causing only damage to Israel’s future. You have little to offer the single Jewish State. In fact you would love to see it disbanded and replaced by a state for all its citizens. You obviously and “proudly” do not count yourself among the supporters of Israel and you probably never have. And so you hang around like minded negativity.
        And Annie, why is it that feminists are so extremely anti-Israel but yet so forgiving towards the Arabs who treat their women and gays so badly? Some say that if women ran the world there would be no more wars. Apparently the opposite is closer to the truth?

      • Annie Robbins
        June 14, 2017, 2:52 pm

        i’m not forgiving of anyone who treats women and/or children badly. where do you come up with this stuff? do you just pull crap out of a hat? you who feign concern for abusing women and say nothing about them living in squalor w/no electricity in gaza or getting shot up at some checkpoint. spare us your faux concern. and yet again, you seemingly find it impossible to respond to anything i’ve written without some reference to my gender. why do you think that is?

        You have little to offer the single Jewish State….You obviously and “proudly” do not count yourself among the supporters of Israel and you probably never have. And so you hang around like minded negativity.

        You have little to offer Palestinians. You obviously and “proudly” do not count yourself among their supporters and you probably never have. And so you hang around like minded negativity.

        see how easy that was? and why should i have concern for this so called “single” jewish state when right here in california we have our very own “capitol knesset” doing israel’s bidding http://www.capitolknesset.com/ ? and we’ve got 50 states (or something i can’t keep track) wasting our legislators time all over this country shoving invasive pro israel resolutions down our collective throats. so i’ve had it with this lame “single” notion. the lobby is all pervasive — it’s a gruesome predicament.

      • eljay
        June 14, 2017, 3:02 pm

        || Emet: Mooser … You have little to offer the single Jewish State. … ||

        A (religion-)supremacist state is not entitled to and does not deserve offerings.

        || … In fact you would love to see it disbanded and replaced by a state for all its citizens. … ||

        Supporters of “Jewish State” don’t realize how much their condemnations of…
        – opposition to their preferred brand of supremacism; and
        – calls for equality,
        …make them sound like supporters of Islamic State / “Islamic States”.

        Birds of a hateful and immoral feather.

      • Emet
        June 14, 2017, 3:40 pm

        Not forgiving you say? How about those sending of their own kids to be suicide bombers and then celebrating their “achievement”? The Palestinians are mostly responsible for this situation as they rejected the 1947 Partition Plan. Maybe they are not 100% but close.
        Israel has offered plenty to the Palestinians and is an island of stability in the greater region. Israel will never allow Palestinians national aspiration, which openly declare that there is no place for Jews, to ever become a reality. Until those are changed and the majority of Palestinians are prepared to put their lives on the line defending a place for Jews in the same places the Palestinians want exclusively for themselves, then there is nothing to talk about. My reference to your gender has obviously struck a chord and has made you uncomfortable. Get over it.

      • Mooser
        June 14, 2017, 6:39 pm

        .” And with 70% assimilation rate of secular American Jews, you are a dinosaur in its last breaths causing only damage to Israel’s future.”

        Wow, if you got rid of 70% of Jews, imagine how numerous and powerful Jews would be! That’s how it works, you bet.

        “You have little to offer the single Jewish State”

        Nothing except a third-rate romance in a low-rent rendezvous. I’m already married.

        “In fact you would love to see it disbanded and replaced by a state for all its citizens.”

        ROTFLMSJAO! If you are going to make a horrible accusation like that, you better have some proof.

      • RoHa
        June 15, 2017, 12:19 am

        What is really needed is for Israeli Jews to defend a place for Palestinians – as equal citizens – in in the same places the Jews want exclusively for themselves.

      • talknic
        June 15, 2017, 2:39 am

        @ Emet June 14, 2017, 3:40 pm

        “How about those sending of their own kids to be suicide bombers and then celebrating their “achievement”?”

        Cite some actual figures. How many would that be, compared to those who serve in the IDF, slaughtering mostly innocent Palestinians in order to maintain an illegal occupation and protect illegal Israeli settlers?

        ” The Palestinians are mostly responsible for this situation as they rejected the 1947 Partition Plan.”

        Bullsh*t. The Zionist Federation decided to colonize Palestine in 1897. The Palestinian response to UNGA res 181 was quite valid, the UN had no actual remit to even suggest partition of an existing Nation State (See Article 7 of the LoN Mandate for Palestine and the corresponding 1925 adoption of Palestinian Nationality Law) that had provisional recognition.

        “Israel has offered plenty to the Palestinians and is an island of stability in the greater region.”

        More bullsh*t! Israel has only ever offered to swap non-Israeli territories for non-Israeli territories so Israel can keep non-Israeli territories Israel has illegally acquired by war. I.e., Israel has offered NO THING, ever!

        ” Israel will never allow Palestinians national aspiration, which openly declare that there is no place for Jews,”

        More bullsh*t! You’re really full of it. Palestinians like any other state are not legally required to allow foreigners (Israelis, even if they are Jews) to illegally settle in any Palestinian territories unless they take up Palestinian citizenship. It’s quite NORMAL for states to ban foreigners from illegally settling.

        Go peddle your ZioCrap elsewhere Emet you’ll deservedly drown in it here

      • Talkback
        June 15, 2017, 7:19 pm

        Emet: ” Palestinian Arabs as a collective identity is barely 50 years old …”

        The identiy is actually older than WW I, but legally relevant is that a Palestinian nationality exists since 1925. You probably don’t know that, because neither you nor your ascendants legally acquired this citizenship. And a Jewish nationality/citizenship doesn’t exist at all, which makes a “Jewish state” as racist `as any other state which differentiates between citizens and those who belong to its “nation”. Nazi Germany for example.

    • talknic
      June 12, 2017, 5:11 am

      @ Emet June 10, 2017, 6:19 pm

      “Hebron was once an all Jewish city before the Muslim invaders came along … … … “

      So what? From the moment Israel proclaimed its borders in order to be recognized (1), no territories outside those recognized have ever been legally acquired by the State of Israel by any agreement (2)

      (1) http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf

      (2) The acquisition of territories by war as reflected in UNSC res 242 as been inadmissible since at least the founding of the UN 1945

      Your arguments are irrelevant Hasbara

    • Misterioso
      June 12, 2017, 2:11 pm

      Sigh

      What is truthful and relevant regarding Hebron:

      In 1947, 96% of Hebron ‘s land was privately owned by Palestinian Arabs. Less than 1% was privately owned by Jews and 4% was state owned. (Village Statistics, Jerusalem: Palestine Government)

    • zaid
      June 12, 2017, 3:15 pm

      Actually if you believe the narrative of the bible which says that Ismael the Patriarch of the Arabs were born before Isaac the patriarch of the Jews which means we were there before.

      If you believe in Archaeology and facts then the Jews of Palestine converted to Christianity and later to Islam and the Expulsion of Jews from Palestine is a myth.

      Either way it is exclusively Palestinian.

      • tod77
        June 13, 2017, 12:36 pm

        Archaeology and facts are disputed. You can find conflicting “facts” that are “proven” going either way.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews
        has some links showing that genetically Jews originated from the middle east.

        The point isn’t to prove who was there first. Or to prove who “owns” the land exclusively.
        The point is to solve the problem so that future generations don’t have to live in the situation described in this article.

        I saw the film “censored voices” yesterday. Highly recommended.
        Someone there said “a tragedy is when both sides are 100% right”.

        In my opinion, zionists in the 19th and early 20th centuries had the right idea. Jews had suffered from years of persecution as a minority in basically every country they lived in. Bringing them together en masse and putting them in one place was a sensible choice. It could have happened anywhere in the world, but they chose Palestine, for the historic reasons you dispute.

        With the two people fighting over one land, the only possible end game is to share the land, even if this means to compromise, and even if this is not a just or fair solution.

      • Mooser
        June 13, 2017, 3:39 pm

        “In my opinion, zionists in the 19th and early 20th centuries had the right idea. Jews had suffered from years of persecution as a minority in basically every country they lived in.”

        You bet. And the fate of Jews in America put the capper on it. ‘This has got to stop!’ said Zionists.

      • Mooser
        June 13, 2017, 3:42 pm

        “It could have happened anywhere in the world, but they chose Palestine, for the historic reasons you dispute.”

        Whew, I guess New York, Florida, and maybe Southern California had a narrow escape! Cause we can take a chunk of land and drive off the other people “anywhere in the world”. Now, that’s power!

      • tod77
        June 14, 2017, 12:58 pm

        Mooser – not sure I understand what you are saying.
        You think Jews in the 19th and early 20th century made a mistake not all moving to the united states?
        In hindsight you might be right, but the world was a different place back then, and the US was not as welcoming and liberal as it was nowadays.
        The entry on wikipedia has a bunch of nice examples.
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism_in_the_United_States?wprov=sfla1

        A quote: ” In the first half of the 20th century, Jews were discriminated against in some employment, not allowed into some social clubs and resort areas, given a quota on enrollment at colleges, and not allowed to buy certain properties”

        Historically jews in the Muslim world were often better off than in the Christian world. Even places like the UK have a bleak history. Jews were forced to wear a yellow star of David many centuries before the Nazis.
        Thinking about, I recall my grandmother always hiding the fact that our family was Jewish, even as late as the 1970s. We had a double door at the entrance to the house and I remember her telling me that the mezuzah was purposely on the inside.

        Anyway… my point is that the decision to come to Palestine seems to me a logical one. I assume many early zionists did not see it as “conquering” Palestine. They were merely migrating. They didn’t go through military training. They studied agriculture.

        Don’t take this out of context and claim that I am saying that this excuses anything that has happened in the last 150 years. I am simply reiterating my original comment that I am not sure what you disagree with in it.

      • Mooser
        June 14, 2017, 1:19 pm

        “Thinking about, I recall my grandmother always hiding the fact that our family was Jewish, even as late as the 1970s.”

        Yeah, you used skin-lighteners, and straightened your hair, so nobody would know.

        “In the first half of the 20th century, Jews were discriminated against in some employment, not allowed into some social clubs and resort areas, given a quota on enrollment at colleges, and not allowed to buy certain properties”

        Yes, racial and religious and ethnic discrimination was legal at that time in America. Although I don’t know why all of it was directed at us.

      • Keith
        June 14, 2017, 3:36 pm

        TOD77- “Jews had suffered from years of persecution as a minority in basically every country they lived in.”

        This is basically Zionist mythology. I am unaware of any country in which the majority of Jews were not economically above the majority of Gentiles. Much of the “persecution” you claim was the result of struggles for power among the various elites. In medieval times, the Jews were the nascent middle class working for the Gentile royalty in controlling the Gentile peasants. In more modern times, Jews dominated the professions including finance. In fact, Jewish money financed both the Suez and Panama canal construction. As Benjamin Ginsberg notes, “Historically, alliances between Jews and states or state-building movements have been the chief catalyst for organized anti-Semitism.” (p33, “The Fatal Embrace:Jews and the State,” Benjamin Ginsberg).

        Ginsberg also notes that the early 20th century anti-Jewish discrimination you refer to was a consequence of a realignment of the American power elite. “During the late nineteenth century, the new business classes simultaneously co-opted their patrician foes and rid themselves of their former Jewish allies. This feat was accomplished through the creation or reconstruction of social institutions that effectively linked the interests of the old privileged strata with those of the new money classes.” (P82) These new and reconstructed institutions excluded Jews, hence, restricted Jewish presence among the dominant elite. It was all part of the struggle for power, not unlike Jewish organizations which exclude Gentiles. After World War II, but particularly after the Six Day War, there was a reversal of the previous realignment as Jews once again became disproportionately represented in the corridors of power.

        To sum up, the notion of Jews as a downtrodden minority is pure mythology. Anti-Semitism was frequently a consequence of visible Jewish power and privilege, frequently combined with Jewish anti-Gentilism. As Israel Shahak states:“Everywhere, classical Judaism developed hatred and contempt for agriculture as an occupation and for peasants as a class, even more than for other Gentiles….” (p53, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years,” Israel Shahak) In other words, much of what passes for gospel among Jews (and now most Gentiles) is mostly mythology. Referring again to Shahak: “All modern studies on Judaism, particularly by Jews, have evolved from that conflict, and to this day they bear the unmistakable marks of their origin: deception, apologetics or hostile polemics, indifference or even active hostility to the pursuit of truth.” (p22)

      • Mooser
        June 14, 2017, 8:56 pm

        I’ve had it. I don’t want to be a Jew anymore. I want to be one of the people who we compare ourselves to, the people to which nothing bad ever happens.

      • RoHa
        June 15, 2017, 12:29 am

        I recall that eee had a go at excommunicating you, but it didn’t take. Maybe Grover can succeed, and you will be able to live the same sort of carefree life I do.

      • tod77
        June 15, 2017, 3:04 am

        Keith –

        This is an account of life in Persia in the 19th century:
        “They are obliged to live in a separate part of town…; for they are considered as unclean creatures… Under the pretext of their being unclean, they are treated with the greatest severity and should they enter a street, inhabited by Mussulmans, they are pelted by the boys and mobs with stones and dirt… For the same reason, they are prohibited to go out when it rains; for it is said the rain would wash dirt off them, which would sully the feet of the Mussulmans… If a Jew is recognized as such in the streets, he is subjected to the greatest insults. The passers-by spit in his face, and sometimes beat him… unmercifully… If a Jew enters a shop for anything, he is forbidden to inspect the goods… Should his hand incautiously touch the goods, he must take them at any price the seller chooses to ask for them… Sometimes the Persians intrude into the dwellings of the Jews and take possession of whatever please them. Should the owner make the least opposition in defense of his property, he incurs the danger of atoning for it with his life… If… a Jew shows himself in the street during the three days of the Katel (Muharram)…, he is sure to be murdered”

        This wasn’t only about money or power.

        Antisemitism stems from ethnic racial reasons, religious reasons, and yes – also economical reasons.
        But the core of the issue is that Jews were persecuted for being Jews. Many were murdered even though they were not rich or powerful. And being rich and powerful rarely protected them anyway.

        19th century zionists proposed that being a majority in one country would be better than being a minority in all countries. As a majority – you cannot be expelled, as they were from England, Spain, Yemen and elsewhere. As a majority – you cannot be subjected to specific taxes only applicable to your religion. You cannot be forced to wear a certain hat or to work in a certain profession.

        Not sure why that sounds such unreasonable thinking to you.

        Being a minority is not so good even in the 21st century.
        Palestinians living in Haifa, Muslims living in France, Kurds living in Iraq will all agree.

        Mooser – I was under the impression we were talking about Zionism. Happy to discuss Kashmir or Brazil if that is what you wanted to talk about.

      • talknic
        June 15, 2017, 6:27 am

        @ Mooser June 14, 2017, 8:56 pm

        “I’ve had it. I don’t want to be a Jew anymore.”

        You’d need a small suture to suit. Can’t say I know of any Mohel who reverses the procedure. Maybe Steve can help

      • Keith
        June 15, 2017, 11:14 am

        TOD77- “This is an account of life in Persia in the 19th century….”

        No citation? No doubt you can quote at length from the numerous Jewish myth-making sources to buttress your tale of never ending woe. But this Judeo-Zionist mythology is an overly simplistic misrepresentation of actual events which varied from location to location. Most of the Jewish ghettos were self imposed. During the period of Classical Judaism, assimilation wasn’t even considered by the Rabbis who controlled the local Jews. In fact, Israel Shahak considers Zionism to be a throwback to Classical Judaism, a rebellion against modernization and assimilation. As for Israel being a defense against expulsion, the primary purpose of Israel was to create the new Jew who would fill all of the social functions rather than just being merchants and professionals. During the period of Classical Judaism there were no Jewish peasants. Apparently you have never read what some of these early Zionists such as Jabotinsky said about the Jewish role in Gentile society? Look, if you want to believe that Jews have always been discriminated against, yet somehow managed to acquire wealth and power, I can’t stop you. It is easy to believe what is convenient to believe, and self-deception is the rule not the exception. One more quote for you then I am done.

        “During the fifteenth and Sixteenth centuries, Jews came to play a major role in the fiscal affairs and administration of the Ottoman empire….Jews dominated the imperial revenue system, serving as tax collectors, tax farmers, tax intendants, and tax inspectors. Jews also created and operated the imperial customs service. Indeed, so complete was Jewish control over this segment of the Ottoman state that Ottoman customs receipts were typically written in Hebrew.” (p15, “The Fatal Embrace: Jews and them State,” Benjamin Ginsberg)

      • Mooser
        June 15, 2017, 5:24 pm

        In the Ottoman Empire, every man could sit under his own fig tree, comfortably.

        “Jews have always been discriminated against, yet somehow managed to acquire wealth and power,”

        “Keith”, whatever “pelf and power” we got doesn’t hold a candle to the things we suddenly acquired with Zionism: An international political competence and sophistication, (which, dang it, had eluded us for 2000 years) along with a complete unification of Judaism, and (since there was, unfortunately, some rough work ahead) a disciplinary system along with clear lines of authority so every Jew knows his obligations to Zionism and Judaism. Not to mention the complete subordination of Jewish demographics to the needs of Zionism. Not to mention all that trauma stuff which disappeared, became completely irrelevant, as soon as there was Zionism. Got it all, just like that!

  2. Ossinev
    June 11, 2017, 7:26 am

    @Emet
    “The non Jewish population of the region at the time were either Bedouin or simple village farmers and had no collective identity outside of the mud huts. Sorry, not all their homes were made of mud. Some were made of stone”.

    So the “Jewish” natives who somehow crept back into the area after those nasty Romans had expelled them all those hundreds of years ago lived in desirable civilised upmarket condos and even then had formed the only democracy in the Levant with a little army to provide that Jewish staple, “security”, and even then it was the most moral in the history of mankind.And even then would you Adam and Eve it they were surrounded by Untermenschen with no “collective identity”. Wow!!

    Sorry old bean but would you kindly provide sources for this anthropological and archeological bombshell. Would be fascinated to see photos of excavations,artefacts etc etc

    No let me guess you are really a Zionist Time Traveller and you went back in time saw and witnessed it all but forgot to take your camera.

    • Emet
      June 11, 2017, 10:49 am

      Ossinev: Sources and archaeology? How about Josephus Flavious for a source and the Second Temple for archaeology. As the Temple no longer stands, what remains are some foundation stones. Based on the foundation stones, which you can see today, you will get an idea of what was built above.

      • RoHa
        June 11, 2017, 11:24 pm

        The foundation stones show that a Temple existed. They tell us nothing about the conditions of the Jews and the non-Jews in the Hebron area before 700 CE.

      • Misterioso
        June 12, 2017, 2:32 pm

        Emet

        During the 19th century (CE!!) , my great grandfather was driven off his land in Ireland by the British and was forced to flee to America. According to you, as a descendant, I have the right to go to Ireland and forcibly remove the current inhabitants from what was my great grandfather’s land and claim it as my own.

        In short Emet, you are peddling utter nonsense. And please don’t trot out the racist and moronic argument that because you were presumably born into a Jewish family, you have a “God given” right to seize the lands of and dispossess/expel the indigenous Palestinian Arab inhabitants of historic Palestine because Jews had a minor kingdom between the River and the Sea thousands of years ago that lasted a mere 73 years.

        To quote renowned historian/anthropologist and “Holy Land” specialist, Professor Ilene Beatty: “When we speak of ‘Palestinians’ or of the ‘Arab population [of Palestine]‘, we must bear in mind their Canaanite origin. This is important because their legal right to the country stems… from the fact that the Canaanites were first, which gives them priority; their descendants have continued to live there, which gives them continuity; and (except for the 800,000 dispossessed refugees [of 1948 along with the further hundreds of thousands expelled before and after the war Israel launched on 5 June 1967]) they are still living there, which gives them present possession. Thus we see that on purely statistical grounds they have a proven legal right to their own land.” (“Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan,” 1957)

      • Mooser
        June 12, 2017, 3:26 pm

        “Based on the foundation stones, which you can see today, you will get an idea of what was built above.”

        Oh, definitely. I’ve seen the pictures!
        Two vast and trunkless legs of stone stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand, half sunk a shattered visage lies, (whose frown, and wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, tell that its sculptor well those passions read!)
        And on the pedestal, these words appear: “I am a boy named Sue! Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!”

      • gamal
        June 12, 2017, 5:46 pm

        “have the right to go to Ireland and forcibly remove the current inhabitants”

        Shit!

        my presence here is not endorsed by scripture,

        tenuous genetic link,

        unsupported by Prophets,

        not underpinned by any ideology, merely happenstance,

        not even a citizen, but i do have deeds for my lands (in a fire proof safe) and house, my farmer uses the land we have an agreement though as I do not get every word he says I am unclear as to the provisions of our arrangement, slavery has never come up as far as i am aware and honestly its wet and cold for days now mid summer! there are slugs the size of dolphins, you wouldn’t like it here the road bowling is almost constant.

      • RoHa
        June 12, 2017, 7:02 pm

        Gamal, you are, as the young people would say, toast.

        Hang on to those deeds, and key to your house. You’ll be able to show them to sympathetic journalists when they visit the camp on the Isle of Man.

      • gamal
        June 12, 2017, 7:58 pm

        “on the Isle of Man”

        whose symbol is a primitive sort of…. respect there is so much there i just fell apart, i can’t cope, really made me laugh, i may have herniated, you vile misogynist, in some moods i could camp on other islands.

      • Mooser
        June 13, 2017, 12:30 pm
      • Rashers2
        June 13, 2017, 6:00 pm

        @gamal, must cross swords with you in defence of the three-legged man of Mann! The Brits did commandeer part of the IoM for the internment of civilian aliens &, in WWI, also for German PoWs, but what’s “primitive” about the Island’s ancient device of three bended, equilaterally splayed, armour-clad legs (usually depicted spurred) with the explanatory motto, “Quocunque Ieceris Stabit” (“Whichever way you’ll throw him, he’ll stand up”)? It’s a fragment of my adopted philosophy, signifying resilience in the face of adversity; and permanently emblazoned on my left shoulder-blade. I’ll thank you to leave it alone, habibi……..

      • Emet
        June 15, 2017, 3:50 am

        Misterioso, go and tell all the American Indians that they have no claims to their ancient homelands. Stolen goods/property always remains exactly that. Those who began using force are the Arabs. Israel replies with force and you excuse Arab behavior. An Arab in some village somewhere may have a claim of sorts. The collective group now called Palestinian Arabs, does not.

      • Talkback
        June 15, 2017, 7:44 pm

        Emet: “Misterioso, go and tell all the American Indians that they have no claims to their ancient homelands.”

        Yes, Misterioso. And tell them that Palestinian Arabs have no claims either. Only Jews all over the world.

        Emet: “Stolen goods/property always remains exactly that.”

        That’s antisemitic, Emet. Clearly any goods/property that was stolen by Jews after 1948 is not “stolen”.

        Emet: “Those who began using force are the Arabs.”

        Yes, Emet, its only called defense, when Jews resort to force. Nonjews are not even allowed to forcefully resist enforced Jewish immigration, enforced colonialization or an enforced partition of their country.

        Emet: An Arab in some village somewhere may have a claim of sorts. The collective group now called Palestinian Arabs, does not.

        Yup, only the collective group now called Zionist Jews has. It’s actually quite simple, if one is a Jewish supremacist, isn’t it, Emet?

  3. JosephA
    June 11, 2017, 10:44 am

    Dear Mr. Zimmerman,

    Your thoughts shared in this article so succinctly and thoroughly covered many very valid bullet points, bravo. Thanks for making that trip, and thanks for being an example of how human beings should act!

    Now, let’s stoop down a few levels:

    As for the strange first comment by Emet and echoed by Jerry Hirsch, I am really at a loss as to whether this should be categorized as obfuscation, or simply non sequitur.

    The article is about the tangible effects of a brutal, unfair, illegal military occupation on the day to day lives of the indigenous Palestinians. Why are they changing the subject, I wonder, because they deny the reality as it has been so thoughtfully presented in the article? What’s so bad about bearing witness to such stories? It shatters their worldview (ostensibly racism and zionism)

    As for Baruch Marzel, I will admit I had never heard of him before your article. How tragic that he’s living a life that is the complete opposite of his namesake. When I was a kid, my Jewish friends sat around wide-eyed as the only one of them that spoke Hebrew translated things they heard at the Synagogue. “what does Baruch mean?”, they asked. “Holy, or blessed”, he replied. Baruch Marzel sounds like more of a monster than a holy or blessed person. He probably knows very little about Judaism.

    • Rashers2
      June 12, 2017, 5:58 pm

      @JosephA, I suspect you understand as well as I the reasons that @Emet & @Jerry Hirsch have crept from beneath their stones to ‘comment’ on this piece with their customary (prescribed, even) cocktail of deflections, conflations, projections and their – how shall I put this? ‘innovative’? – interpretations of ancient and post-ancient history; and of what gives rise – or doesn’t – to someone’s ‘right’ to occupy somewhere: it’s not just or even principally because Charlie Zimmerman has written an exposé of the appalling situation in which the Palestinians in Al Khalil find themselves as a result not only of the occupation but also of the deliberate placement of the small Jewish enclave in H2, with its consequent dislocations and disruptions of thousands of Palestinians’ daily lives. It is because Mr. Zimmerman represents the crypto-enemy of Zionism and the so-called ‘Jewish State’ of Israel; and every unacceptable, immoral and unjustifiable policy they stand for: he penned his observations having been there with the Jewish group JCNV and – however secular by his own averral he may be – he’s Jewish. He is thus the detested and reviled Jino, the Kapo’, the ‘self-hating Jew’ whose criticism of the Zionist project and of the Hasbara-im’s beloved, flawless, sacrosanct Israel is the crime for which no punishment can be sufficient; criticism, express or implicit, by a Jew of Zionism and the State of Israel being worse than child-abuse, cannibalism and robbery-with-violence combined.

      When I feel despondent about the I-P situation (which, I confess, is frequently) comments like these from Hasbara Central or its unpaid reservists to articles such as Mr. Zimmerman’s lift my mood because they demonstrate that the unsustainable can be temporarily sustained with and the indefensible for the time-being defended ONLY by falsehoods. Zionism defies rational defence and the ‘Jewish State’ is built on lies. These lies (‘Only democracy in the Middle East’; ‘Land without a people for a people without a land’ – two for the price of one, there – etc., etc., etc.) are admittedly now deep-rooted and, over many decades, have been fed and watered by craven politicians outside and by the more-than-complicit Western MSM. Lies, however, remain lies. The truth will emerge inch-by-inch into the light; when there is more light than shadow, it is the Zionists who will find that there is no safe place to dissimulate their guilt or hide – not even their much-vaunted haven, precarious on its shifting foundation of untruth, in Palestine.

  4. Ossinev
    June 11, 2017, 1:40 pm

    @Emet
    I think you are getting your centuries mixed up:
    ” Hebron was once an all Jewish city before the Muslim invaders came along”
    Make up your mind are you talking about. Are you saying that the Zionist narrative about Jews been driven out of their ancient homeland en masse by those nasty Romans(ending up in places as diverse as Brooklyn and Finchley) is fake,incorrect call it what you like. They were in fact still living there in their collective identity outfits until those nasty Muslim Arabs came along in the 7th Century A.D. and etc etc as per the Romans.

    What a tangled web.

  5. JLewisDickerson
    June 11, 2017, 4:34 pm

    RE: “Dispatch from ‘the most ****ed up place on Earth,’ Hebron’s H2 quarter”

    MY RANT: How dare dare they! How dare dare they! How dare dare they!
    How dare Zimmerman and Mondoweiss award “the most ****ed up place on Earth” title to Hebron’s H2 quarter without at least giving NYC honourable mention!*

    * SEE: “At NYC ‘Anti-sharia’ Rally, White Nationalists and Conservative Jews Find Common Ground” | by Taly Krupkin (New York) | Haaretz.com | Jun 10, 2017

    NEW YORK – Dozens of protestors, many of them wearing “Make America Great Again” baseball caps, gathered in downtown Manhattan on Saturday to denounce what they call the threat of sharia law in the United States. The rally was one of 29 similar protests taking place in major cities across the country. In New York, the event attracted a small but eclectic crowd, which included supporters of President Donald Trump, so-called “alt-right” white nationalists, conservative Jews and gays and a right-wing militia which vowed to protect the participants.

    Members of Identity Evropa, a white supremacist organization identified with the alt-right, came to the rally in pressed T-shirts and haircuts that made them look like look-alikes of the prominent white nationalist Richard Spencer. The group’s speaker, who identified himself as Matt, said he recently participated in the torch march in Charlottesville, Virginia, where Spencer and others protested the removal of the statue of the Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee. He said he supports Spencer and has worked with him in the past. Identity Evropa is “a fraternity and political activity for Europeans of non-Semitic heritage,” he said. “We are all over the U.S., and we are growing rapidly since Trump’s election… We are for men and women who want to assert their white European identities and advocate for that.” . . .

    . . . Laura Loomer, a contributor to the right-wing Canadian web platform Rebel Media, took the stage wearing a Star of David. She condemned “liberals who align themselves with sharia law” and read parts of the sharia that are discriminatory or violent toward women, such as “Under sharia Law, women can be beaten.” “There is no such thing as rape culture,” she said. “You want to see rape culture? Travel to where ISIS is raping Yazidi girls.”

    The event was organized by Act for America, which is described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as the biggest anti-Muslim organization in the country. ACT’s president, Brigitte Gabriel, a vocal critic of Islam, is a strong supporter of Trump’s so-called Muslim ban and has boasted of a close relationship with the president.

    As promotion for the rally, Gabriel has published an article called “War on Girls” in right-wing Breitbart News last week. In it, she presented the event as urgent action needed to protect Muslim girls and women in the U.S. from honor killings. . .

    . . . The reason for the urgency cited in the article was the raised profile of the Palestinian-American activist Linda Sarsour, the executive director of the Arab American Association of New York and one of the organizers of the Women’s March on Washington in January.

    “Radical Islamist and mainstream media darling Linda Sarsour has explicitly expressed a desire to implement Sharia in the U.S, a policy that would not only justify, but encourage, what happened [i.e., an honor killing ~ J.L.D.] to Tina,” wrote Gabriel.

    At the rally, speakers were interrupted with cries of “that will show Sarsour.” Several brought an obscene drawing of Sarsour and displayed it for those in attendance.

    A middle-aged couple arrived holding an Israeli flag, and another protestor wore an Israel Defense Forces T-shirt (although he said that as an American Jew from New York City, he did not serve in the Israeli army). He explained that he came to the rally because of Sarsour’s invitation to speak at the commencement of the City University of New York’s School of Public Health. “That was a taxpayer-funded thing, it was a commencement address meant for all CUNY students, it’s not right. She is pro-sharia, she is at the very least an Islamist apologist, she has said horrible things about people who are trying to protect ex-Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It is a shame to me that taxpayers’ money, people who would never in a million years want their money to support sharia, their money is going to her.” . . .

    read more (pay wall)http://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-1.794962

    • Rashers2
      June 12, 2017, 6:25 pm

      JLD, for the little it’s worth, I’d give Charlie Zimmerman, our MW Editor-in-Chief AND you right on this. Perhaps the difference is that NYC/the US of A has been f*cked up by Americans; Al Khalil has been f*cked up solely, exclusively and uniquely by Zionist occupiers.

  6. Ronald Johnson
    June 12, 2017, 10:38 am

    Would it help to know that the characters of the Old Testament are made-up figures of camp fire fiction? In the Boy Scouts we had Paul Bunyan with his blue ox, Babe, Stormalong, Pecos Bill, John Henry – these are not woven into a unified national myth. But look at the US History taught in high school, as refuted by Howard Zinn, and James W. Loewen. Henry Ford put it succinctly: “History is bunk”.

  7. MHughes976
    June 12, 2017, 4:02 pm

    The awful thing is that people react to the deprivation of rights for living people by reciting claims about the ancient world and giving things some kind of religious aura. But the fact that you ascribe religious significance to something does not make it yours and the idea that God has given something to you has no claim on the minds of any who do not accept your religion. I would not think that the Palestinians had been wronged because they did not have something they thought they should have on grounds of Muslim or even Christian theology. I do think they are being wronged because they have been excluded from their recognised property of many generations, at which even Arthur Balfour might have blenched.
    That said, just to mention Galor and Bloedhorn Archaeology of Jerusalem (2013) p.37 ‘All attempts to locate the First Temple remain conjectural’ – an illustration of the point that there’s a lot we don’t know about the realities behind the great historical narratives that were created in later times. They make the same point (p.87) about the relationship of the Herodian Temple to the ‘foundation stone’ now in the Dome of the Rock. There is no denying that there was a great Temple in those days, the centre of the religion called Judaism by some around the time. King Herod was one of the richest persons of his time – he was the principal regional ally of the still insecure Roman imperial project, so he was very well supported. But the few centuries of near-independent ‘Jewish’ domination of what was at the time and later, by Jews and others, commonly called Palestine – as it had been for five centuries at least – are not so important in comparison with other times that they determine and obliterate rights in the present – are they? Or if so, why?
    The Cave of the Patriarchs looks indeed like one of Herod’s structures but there are puzzles. Josephus, so keen to chronicle Herod’s works, does not mention it and it is not so easy to see how it would have fitted in, as a religious building, with the ‘Jerusalem only’ theology of the time. There is, as far as I can see; correct me, minimal reference to it in the Talmud, which seems strange if it is to be regarded as the second holiest site of Judaism. The tradition about patriarchal burial in Genesis is itsel not simple. In chapter 50 Joseph buries Jacob in the ancestral tomb, which some will say is the Cave already purchased by Abraham, but Jacob has asked to be buried in a plot which he had dug or purchased himself, which cannot be the same thing, and indeed seems to be the location in Shechem where Joseph is reputedly buried. The Bible is already a text combining different ideas for theological or spiritual purposes. There is of course no proof from archaeology as yet that the Cave is a patriarchal resting place.
    Sorry, that was too long.

    • RoHa
      June 12, 2017, 7:05 pm

      I don’t keep up with Biblical archaeology. Are those the foundation stones for Herod’s temple, or for the temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus?

    • echinococcus
      June 12, 2017, 7:26 pm

      Hughes,

      the fact that you ascribe religious significance to something does not make it yours and the idea that God has given something to you has no claim on the minds of any who do not accept your religion

      We all know you are generous but now I’d say generous to a fault.
      Since when have Zionists acquired religion?

      • Mooser
        June 13, 2017, 11:57 am

        “the idea that God has given something to you has no claim on the minds of any who do not accept your religion”

        I hope he is not implying that it does have an automatic claim on the minds of any who do accept their religion.

        A person can accept a religion without using it as an excuse for theft, if they feel like it.

  8. MHughes976
    June 13, 2017, 4:00 pm

    My understanding is that when most people refer to ‘THE Foundation Stone’ they mean the stone in the Dome of the Rock, about whose origin there are different ideas: nothinh now rests on it. The ‘Foundation Stones’ may refer to the huge things visible in the Western Wall tunnel, which were part of the enlargement of the Temple Mount platform, strong enough to retain huge amounts of infill. Some attribute all that to Herod, though itvseens to me that Josephus refers to it (Antiquities xv 11:3 in Whiston’s enumeration) and testifies that it was there earlier.

    • RoHa
      June 14, 2017, 11:53 pm

      I ask about the Temple of Jupiter because it seems to be neglected by both archaeologists and historians, and yet it lasted much longer than the temple that Herod built.

  9. tod77
    June 14, 2017, 4:11 pm

    Mooser: “Yes, racial and religious and ethnic discrimination was legal at that time in America. Although I don’t know why all of it was directed at us”

    – what?

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