‘Transferring’ Palestinian citizens of Israel to a Palestinian state goes from outrage to Netanyahu policy

US Politics
on 280 Comments

The Israeli press reports that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has now adopted an idea that had been beyond the pale: transfer– stripping Israeli Palestinians of citizenship without their OK and making them citizens of another country, all of course on a religious-ethnic basis.

A Palestinian lawmaker in Israel’s parliament accused Netanyahu of endorsing a “war crime.”

The news is that in talks with Trump administration officials, Netanyahu has reportedly endorsed the idea of swapping portions of Israeli land containing Palestinian communities for portions of occupied land in the West Bank containing Jewish settlers as a means to establish a Palestinian state.

This idea has long been advocated by Avigdor Lieberman, Israel’s Defense Minister, who promptly tweeted his pleasure over Netanyahu’s shift.

The idea is shocking to liberals, including liberal Zionists. Lara Friedman of the Foundation for Middle East Peace writes:

Message of Bibi’s endorsement of populated land swaps: citizenship of Jews is inalienable right; citizenship of Arabs is revocable privilege

Marian Houk explains the “Jewish state” angle on this policy:

For this precise reason Palest Arab Israeli MKs insisted that Palestinian leadership reject Bibi’s demand for recognition of *Jewish* state

Haaretz reports the news:

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu discussed with Washington in recent weeks the idea of redrawing the borders in any future agreement with the Palestinians, incorporating the major settlement blocs into Israel, while drawing out the heavily populated Israeli-Arab area of Wadi Ara and making it part of a future Palestinian state… The discussions, first reported by Channel 2, mean that Netanyahu – in conversations with US President Donald Trump’s advisers Jared Kushner and Jason Greenblatt – has adopted a proposal put forward years ago by Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman.

Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman, who has been advocating for several years to hand over Wadi Ara to the Palestinians in a future peace agreement, tweeted on Thursday night: “Mr. prime minister, welcome to the club.”

Wadi Ara is an area in Israel southwest of Afula, and west of Jenin across the old Green Line, that has several Palestinian towns.

Palestinian Israelis are of course enraged by this idea. Again from Haaretz:

[Member of Knesset] Aida Touma-Suliman responded on Thursday to the report about Netanyahu’s proposal. “The cat is out of the bag and Netanyahu has shown his true colors regarding the Arab population,” she said. “Lieberman’s plan has been adopted by the prime minister,” she said.

“The Ara residents are not only Israeli citizens, they’re also indigenous people who dwell on their land, and are not to be compared with settlers dwelling on another nation’s land. We the Arab citizens aren’t part of any such equation and aren’t willing to pay the price again for Israel’s policy of occupation and settlements

Another Palestinian official in Knesset with the Joint List, Yousef Jabareen, said in a statement this morning:

“Netanyahu actually calls to commit war crimes!”

“Netanyahu does not miss any opportunity to continue with his campaign of incitement and de-legitimacy against the Arab population and its leadership. He also exhibits a lot of ignorance when he compares between Arab citizens of Israel and settlers. Arab citizens of Israel were not granted citizenship by grace, but were granted citizenship by the fact that they live in their historical homeland. This is in a stark contrast to the settlers of the West Bank who are illegally occupying the lands they stole by force from their Palestinian owners.”

Jabareen added, “Practically speaking, Netanyahu calls to carry out two war crimes: transfer for Arab citizens, and annexation of illegal settlements. The fate of the war criminals will be at the International Court of Justice in The Hague.”

When Lieberman gave a speech advocating this policy at the U.N. 7 years ago, the Netanyahu government distanced itself from the idea and American Jews condemned it. From Haaretz:

Netanyahu’s advisers tried to downplay the embarrassment caused by Lieberman’s speech, saying a coalition government would be impossible without Lieberman and that ministers can express their personal opinions even in international arenas.

“The international community is aware that this is not the position of the government,” one of the advisers said…

Lieberman’s speech also outraged many American Jews, and some Jewish leaders demanded his resignation.

“If Lieberman can’t keep his personal opinions to himself, he ought to resign from the cabinet,” said Seymour Reich, a former president of the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations.

Let’s see how many U.S. Jewish groups condemn the idea now. As Israel keeps heading to the right, more and more U.S. Jewish leaders have accommodated themselves to the shift. Even veteran liberal Zionists like Aaron David Miller have accepted the idea of Israel defining itself as “the nation state of the Jewish people.”

Thanks to Ofer Neiman and Allison Deger.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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280 Responses

  1. festus
    July 28, 2017, 1:59 pm

    Put them on the reservations. Glad to see Israel has advanced so much since those 19th century European colonies.

    • Misterioso
      July 29, 2017, 11:40 am

      Sigh

      As if we need further proof of the absurdity and inherent evil of Zionism.

  2. Citizen
    July 28, 2017, 4:37 pm

    Kushner? Puke.

  3. a blah chick
    July 28, 2017, 7:35 pm

    If only Kahane had had a bit more patience and less ego AND been wiling to work with the right wing kingmakers he could have been on his way to becoming prime minister.

  4. yonah fredman
    July 28, 2017, 7:38 pm

    In theory the swap of Israeli territory for Palestinian territory is totally feasible, given that this swap will be achieved through negotiations: the two sides (Palestine and Israel) must agree to such a swap. The duties of the state that has swapped their land out from under its citizens would be due to those citizens. Their citizenship would remain intact and they would be allowed to move elsewhere in the new Israel or else be residents living abroad, with whatever rules affect any citizens who live abroad would then apply to them. Lieberman (obviously) wants to transfer the land and not give the citizens living on that land the rights of citizenship. That is obviously wrong.

    • Mooser
      July 30, 2017, 11:19 am

      “In theory the swap of Israeli territory for Palestinian territory is totally feasible”

      But moving a single one of the settlers is ‘ethnic cleansing’!

  5. echinococcus
    July 28, 2017, 9:31 pm

    Oh well, what a surprise, what a surprise.
    This policy was announced well before 1947. It’s been somehow on and off all the time, and the Oslo disaster has made it officially feasible under the false name of “exchange”, with the pretext that it has already been done bu such illustrious criminal predecessors like Kemalist Turkey, Jinnah Pakistan and others.

    Next we’ll be expecting surprise and indignation when the Zionists start the mass expulsion to the other world –again, 70-100 years after having first announced it.

    The idea is shocking to liberals, including liberal Zionists

    And that is such a consolation, isn’t it, considering what a shocked liberal’s shock is worth. More so a liberal Zionist’s “opposition” to genocidal measures. Right! That’s what will stop them: shocked liberal Zionists.

    i suggest keeping the word “shocked” for later Casablanca replays.

    • RoHa
      July 29, 2017, 5:52 am

      The really depressing thing is that I, and probably you and the rest of the old hands here, are not shocked. Disgusted, certainly. Outraged, very likely. But not shocked. It’s just more of what we expect from Israel, and Israel always lives down to our expectations.

      • Arafatbastard
        July 29, 2017, 10:59 am

        You should make up your mind.

        You call them Palestinians, yet when Israel proposes allowing them to become Palestinian citizens, you protest!

        You’re idiots.

      • echinococcus
        July 29, 2017, 11:27 am

        The Bastard says:

        You’re idiots.

        In his profile, he elaborates:

        Unlike the rest of you, I’m not a Useful Idiot for “Palestine”.

        We’re extremely pleased at being useful.
        His uselessness is acknowledged.
        As long as we remain useful, I suppose it shouldn’t be a problem to acknowledge his superior intelligence.

      • eljay
        July 29, 2017, 12:08 pm

        || Arafatbastard: You should make up your mind.

        You call them Palestinians, yet when Israel proposes allowing them to become Palestinian citizens, you protest!

        You’re idiots. ||

        You should make up your mind.

        You call them Jews, yet when nations propose allowing them to become “Jewish State” citizens, you protest!

        You’re idiots. And you’re Zionists.

      • eljay
        July 29, 2017, 12:13 pm

        || RoHa: The really depressing thing is that I, and probably you and the rest of the old hands here, are not shocked. Disgusted, certainly. Outraged, very likely. But not shocked. … ||

        Not shocked because Zionists have described ethnic cleansing as a “necessary evil” and as “currently not necessary”.

        And I won’t be shocked when they move to complete the triad (oppress, cleanse, kill) to finally solve the “threatening demographic” of non-Jews in the religion-supremacist “Jewish State” of (Greater) Israel.

  6. JosephA
    July 28, 2017, 9:44 pm

    Amazing that incitement to genocide against indigenous Palestinians is par for the course in the modern state of Israel.

    • Nathan
      July 29, 2017, 5:34 am

      JosephA – In the above article, it was not reported that at the time that Netanyahu made his suggestion, residents of Umm el-Fahm (citizens of the State of Israel within the Green Line) had been demonstrating and crying out that Umm el-Fahm is occupied territory. Mondoweiss is committed to honest reporting, but apparently that part of the story slipped between their fingers. Anyway, it’s an interesting situation: ‘Occupation is bad, and it should be rectified. But if the occupation ends by placing the town under Palestinian rule, that is criminal (nakba, racism, illegal)’. It’s quite strange. You can’t win for losing.

      Well, it’s all just bla-bla-bla, of course. Umm el-Fahm is not occupied territory, and there is absolutely no intention to place the town under Palestinian rule. However, there is a message behind the contradiction: ‘Umm el-Fahm is occupied’ / ‘We don’t agree to be placed under Palestinian sovereignty’. The message is: ‘Nothing is acceptable. No matter what you do, we reject it.’ If, on the other hand, the whole country would become the Palestinian state (and Umm el-Fahm residents, obviously, would no longer be citizens of the State of Israel), I would imagine that in such a case the headline of a balanced Mondoweiss article wouldn’t use the term ‘transfer’. Being placed under Palestinian sovereignty without the presence of a neighboring Israel would probably be acceptable, and the loss of Israeli citizenship would be somehow tolerable.

      Since you used the term “genocide” (and in our last exchange you spoke of “concentration-like conditions in Gaza”), you reminded me of one of the Juha stories (that are so popular in the Arab world). Here’s a short English rendition of the story:

      Juha was resting in the shade of a wonderful tree on a very hot day. He felt that he’d like to fall asleep, but a nearby group of children was making too much noise. So Juha called out to them: “Ya awlad (hey, boys). They’re passing out goodies in the mosque. You should go there!” However, Juha still couldn’t fall asleep, because he suddenly felt so silly: “Why am I trying to fall asleep under a leafy tree when they’re passing out goodies in the mosque….”

      • JohnSmith
        July 29, 2017, 3:40 pm

        Ending your commentary with a racist joke depicting Palestinians as morons is an excellent way to accurately show your mentality: kudos! But you say with a snide inflection that the Juha stories are “so popular in the Arab world.” It’s still a racist joke–especially coming from you.

        I agree, it certainly is a mystery that Palestinians who have some limited rights as citizens would protest having those limited rights removed so that they can become stateless, utterly without rights, and forced to live in a Bantustan. German Jews in the 1930s must have had a similar, strange reaction as more and more of their rights were removed under color of law.

        Obviously, this Nathan troll is not worth a reply because he’s intellectually dishonest, but who knows, perhaps he’s capable of a tiny ounce of shame and will someday understand his own obscene bigotry for what it is.

      • gamal
        July 29, 2017, 4:11 pm

        “that the Juha stories are “so popular in the Arab world.” It’s still a racist joke”

        No Joha is so good, even for Jerks who don’t understand the stories they quote, Nathan I mean you, he got appropriated, i mean you are fucking kidding right…they going to build a wall round him

        https://books.google.ie/books/about/Folktales_of_Joha_Jewish_Trickster.html?id=SqxnoSSPWuYC&redir_esc=y

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2017, 4:47 pm

        “Ending your commentary with a racist joke depicting…”

        “Nathan” and his ilk always remind me of the punchline of an old joke:

        Agent: “And what do you call this, ummm ‘family act’ you do?”
        The Father :” We call it “The Aristocrats””

      • Nathan
        July 29, 2017, 7:16 pm

        JohnSmith – I guess it’s very difficult to handle some criticism. The Juha story is a wonderful example of self-criticism in Arab society, and you should take it to heart. There are times in which you tell an untruth (propaganda) in order to achieve your political goals. But things become quite silly when you start to lose contact with reality, and you believe your own nonsense.

        I grew up in a world in which all the parents of my peers had gone through the Holocaust. We all know very clearly what is genocide, and what is starvation, and what is a concentration camp conditions and how was life in the Warsaw Ghetto, etc. So when I hear about concentration camps in the context of the conflict in the Middle East, I understand that it’s propaganda. Someone is trying to convince the public to despise Israel. But I think that a normal person who has read a few books in his life should be able to keep in contact with reality.

        Moreover, I believe that it’s forbidden on this site to deny the Holocaust. The moderators of this forum should take to heart that saying Gaza is “concentration-camp-like conditions” (for example) is Holocaust denial.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 29, 2017, 10:18 pm

        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concentration%20camp

        Definition of concentration camp
        : a camp where persons (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, or refugees) are detained or confined

        First Known Use: 1897

        stating there are concentration camp-like conditions in gaza is an honest statement. and nakba denial is also a banning offense. “mowing the lawn” is a genocidal statement depicting a genocidal action.

      • Mooser
        July 30, 2017, 11:42 am

        “Moreover, I believe that it’s forbidden on this site to deny the Holocaust. The moderators of this forum should take to heart…”

        And this right after the racist joke, “Nathan”?

        Is there a single friggin one of ’em who doesn’t think they run Mondo?
        What on earth makes them think that?

      • The Hasbara Buster
        August 3, 2017, 7:39 pm

        @Nathan

        I don’t see the contradiction between stating that Umm el-Fahm is occupied territory and opposing Israel’s plans to exchange it for settlement blocs. The logic is, precisely, that Israel can’t use Umm el-Fahm as a bargaining chip, because Umm el-Fahm is not Israel’s in the first place.

    • Misterioso
      July 29, 2017, 11:42 am

      @fatbastard

      Keep up the good work. With supporters like you, Israel needs no critics.

    • Jack Green
      July 29, 2017, 3:07 pm

      Genocide?
      In 2016, 60,000 people were killed in Syria. 120 people were killed in the Israel/Palestine conflict, yet only Israel is accused of genocide. Please explain.

      • JosephA
        July 29, 2017, 6:31 pm

        Denying Palestinians exist is tantamount to cultural genocide. Destroying their villages, demolishing their homes, and holding them hostage in the world’s largest open air prison? Slow genocide. Does the annual death toll really matter when it’s worse than apartheid? Have you no shame, no humanity?

      • DaBakr
        July 29, 2017, 7:00 pm

        @jg

        . How dare you divert the subject of this thread and the bitter commentaries that follow. Do you not understand that Israel is the source of every major conflict in the region and far beyond since its rebirth in ’48. Even if Arabs killed way over 100000s Of Palestinian between 48 and 2017 it is Israel (and by extension, the 90% Jews who consider themselves Zionist supporters) who is art fault. you don’t understand basic logic.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 29, 2017, 10:31 pm

        yet only Israel is accused of genocide. Please explain.

        generally commentary in the comment section pertains to the context of the article, which is not about syria. the US engaged in genocide in both iraq and syria. iraq by our invasion and the preceding sanctions designed to weaken the country prior to crushing it. syria we engaged in genocide by facilitating and empowering genocidal groups like AQ and ISIS. it’s not true others are not accused of genocide just because we are not discussing syria and it makes perfect sense to discuss israel’s genocidal intents and actions when commenting on this article.

        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide

        Definition of genocide
        : the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

      • Jack Green
        July 31, 2017, 10:28 am

        @JosephA

        Denying Palestinians exist is NOT tantamount to cultural genocide.
        150 years ago, if you asked an Arab living in Palestine what he was, he would not have said “Palestinian.” He would have said “Southern Syrian.” When people said Palestinians didn’t exist, they meant that Palestinians didn’t see themselves & weren’t seen as a separate group.

      • Jack Green
        July 31, 2017, 10:33 am

        @Annie Robbins

        I’ve seen no evidence that Israel is engaged in genocide.
        Self-defense is not genocide.

      • eljay
        July 31, 2017, 11:44 am

        || Jack Green: … I’ve seen no evidence that Israel is engaged in genocide.
        Self-defense is not genocide. ||

        The women the rapist has kidnapped and chained in his basement keep trying to harm him, so he brutally beats them.
        You see no evidence that the rapist is engaged in assault.
        Self-defence is not assault.

        The world through the eyes of a Zionist.

      • Jack Green
        July 31, 2017, 12:56 pm

        eljay

        In 1948, instead of declaring independence, the Palestinians of the West Bank asked for union with Jordan. In 1967, Jordan attacked Israel. The occupation is the result of that attack.

        Every time Israel offers to end the occupation, the Palestinians say “No!”
        Even Prince Bandar bin Sultan of Saudi Arabia (certainly not a Zionist) said that Arafat’s refusal to accept the January 2001 offer was a crime. Thousands of people would die because of Arafat’s decision & not one of those deaths could be justified.

        As Clinton later wrote in his memoir:
        It was historic: an Israeli government had said that to get peace, there would be a Palestinian state in roughly 97 percent of the West Bank, counting the [land] swap, and all of Gaza, where Israel also had settlements. The ball was in Arafat’s court.
        But Arafat would not, or could not, bring an end to the conflict. “I still didn’t believe Arafat would make such a colossal mistake,” Clinton wrote. “The deal was so good I couldn’t believe anyone would be foolish enough to let it go.” But the moment slipped away. “Arafat never said no; he just couldn’t bring himself to say yes.”

      • eljay
        July 31, 2017, 2:12 pm

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        Geographic Palestine was partitioned. Israel accepted and was recognized as a state within its / Partition borders. Anything and everything beyond that was not-Israel.

        But the Zionist dream was (and remains) Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine and Zionist Israelis couldn’t keep it in their pants.

        They had no right to operate in not-Israel; they had no right to occupy (and colonize) any territory in not-Israel; and they sure as shit didn’t need (and still don’t need) anyone’s permission to end their occupation (and colonization) of not-Israel.

      • Talkback
        July 31, 2017, 3:57 pm

        eljay: “Geographic Palestine was partitioned. Israel accepted and was recognized as a state within its / Partition borders.”

        That’s the short Zionist version. The longer non-Zionist version is:

        Partition was only RECOMMENDED, not endorsed by the Security Council as requested and then put on ice, because of the violence it created. The Zionists then simply cjhose to partition Palestine through war and expulsion and declared statehood in violation of Security Council resolution 46 of April 1948 1(d). Then it annexed territories beyond partition borders with the “Area of Jurisdiction and Powers Ordinance” in September 48, because it actually never intented to “accept” the partition plan. It made clear in the Lausanne Conference that its borders will be based on the Green line and that it is not responsible for the refugees. And despite all of that the UN was ridiculous enough to accept it as a “peace loving” state, one day before Israel retreated from the Lausanne protocol it had allready signed. UN membership and the armistice agreements were simply enough to ignore everything else that was expected of Israel. And the UN did NOTHING.

        eljay: “They had no right to operate in not-Israel; they had no right to occupy (and colonize) any territory in not-Israel;”

        eljay, you seem to be a man whose basic approach is justice. What rights did they have to operate in historic Palestine, to colonize it under a British de facto occupation and even create a settler state? We are talking basically about the same violations of the same fundamental rights.

      • Talkback
        July 31, 2017, 4:27 pm

        Jack Green: “In 1948, instead of declaring independence, the Palestinians of the West Bank asked for union with Jordan.”

        First of all the Palestinians wanted the independence of their whole country and not only 45%. Secondly there was a Security Council resolution 46 in April 48 which asked to abstain from declarations which the Jewish Agency violated. And then Palestinians asked for Jordan’s protection, because the Zionist terrorist were in a rush for conquest, massacres and expulsions.

        Jack Green: “Every time Israel offers to end the occupation, the Palestinians say “No!””

        Israel doesn’t simply offer to end the occupation. Everything that it demands to end the occupation is in one way or another a violation off international law or fundamental Palestinian rights. And if Palestinians say “ok” than the Palestine Papers have showed” that the Israels invents a new obstacle to make Palestinians say “No”.

        Jack Green: “As Clinton later wrote in his memoir:”

        As if the US has ever been an honest broker.

        How about this offer: Palesinians get 80% of the land and all of Jerusalem. Israel will be demilitarized, its borders, airspace and coastal waters controlled by Palestinians. And Israel will be fragmented with Palestinian roads only.

        Don’t say no! The offer is generous. Otherwise Israel wouldn’t offer it.

      • Talkback
        July 31, 2017, 5:05 pm

        Jack Green. “Denying Palestinians exist is NOT tantamount to cultural genocide.”

        You are a Zionist. I’m sure you will find one way or another to undermine the Palestinians right to self determination even it is the result of ignorannce and/or blatant stupidity. The Palestinian people are a constitutive people since 1925. Native Jews know this, because they became Palestinans, too. Nobody can become Palestinian by religious conversion. Jews are not a nation, because nobody can become Jewish by acquiring a citizenship. That’s why a “Jewish” instead of an “Israeli” state is fundamentally racist.

      • Jack Green
        August 3, 2017, 6:00 pm

        Talkback

        Jews are a people, not just a religion.
        The Bible doesn’t refer to Jews as a community of believers.
        First they’re a family, then tribes, then they get the Torah.
        The Jews had a king & an army. That’s a nation, not just a religion.

        I know several Jewish atheists. If being Jewish were just a religion, it would make no sense to call yourself a Jewish atheist.

      • Mooser
        August 3, 2017, 7:13 pm

        “Jews are a people….”

        Okay, groovy. So who can we distinguish Jews from other people? We don’t want a lot of false Jews getting in the way, nor can we let geniuone Jews mix with non-Jews and make us less differentiated.

        So, if Jews are “a people” what are the characteristics, innate, irreducible, congenital and unique, that make us who we are?

        You should be able to answer that in a few sentences, “Jack Green” so don’t hesitate to answer that simple question.

      • Talkback
        August 3, 2017, 10:41 pm

        Jack Green: “Jews are a people, not just a religion.”

        The point of issue is that they are not a nation contrary to the Palestinans and any other constitutive people in the world.

        And if Jews are a “people” than any other faith community is a “people”, as long as the faith is passed unto the descendants or aquired by conversion. And that is NONSENSE.

      • Mooser
        August 4, 2017, 12:02 pm

        “Jews are a people, not just a religion.” “Jack Green”

        And we don’t need to satisfy any outsider with a definition of who is a Jew! We know our own!!

        The problem, of course, is that ‘non-Jewish countries’ refuse to recognize this and hand the Jews over to the Zionists, wholesale. Zionism has to get Jews retail now, due to the denial of Jewish peoplehood, and the discrimination inherent in being designated mere individuals.

      • eljay
        August 4, 2017, 8:48 pm

        || Jack Green: … Jews are a people, not just a religion. … ||

        You Zionists always say that Jews are more than just a religion – they’re a tribe, a people, an ethnicity, a collective, a culture, a nation and even a civilization – but when it comes to defending the actions of (Zionist) Jews you inevitably fall back on religion.

        No surprise, given that Jewish is a religion-based identity which, AFAIK, can only be acquired by:
        – undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
        – being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

        || … I know several Jewish atheists. … ||

        You Zionists always talk about Jewish atheists, but you never talk about Jewish Christians and Jewish Muslims (or Christian Jews and Muslim Jews). Funny, that.

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 8:22 pm

        “First they’re a family, then tribes, then they get the Torah.”

        Good thing the Torah came after the families became tribes. The consanguinity required for that is pretty specifically forbidden.
        And we could devote more than half the time to it.

  7. ahadhaadam
    July 29, 2017, 2:04 pm

    Maybe along the same lines the US will give away Brooklyn and other Jewish neighborhoods to Israel. American Jews will be stripped of their citizenship and instead will become citizens of their ancient “real homeland”. In order to go to Manhattan or anywhere else in the US they will have to get a visa and pass through crowded checkpoints. The US will also erect a Wall around Brooklyn manned by armed guards, to prevent infiltration.

    • catalan
      July 29, 2017, 4:12 pm

      “Maybe along the same lines the US will give away Brooklyn and other Jewish neighborhoods to Israel. “ahadhaadam
      Given the state of the American healthcare, prison, retirement, and education systems we would expect that most Americans would be soon working as illegals in these Jewish neighborhoods. Not to mention that the top 5 percent of earners (many of them Jews) pay about 80 percent of the total income tax, which means that the remaining America would be a financial basketcase on par with the poorest South American and African countries. Kind of funny, imagining America without the Jewish neighborhoods. Just like in Israel, the Muslims in Detroit would soon be moving to Brooklyn.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2017, 5:03 pm

        Somebody is having a little hissy fit, isn’t he? Still chafing about those extradition laws, “catalan”?

      • ahadhaadam
        July 30, 2017, 12:40 pm

        Someone here is a little racial supremacist, isn’t he?

      • Keith
        July 30, 2017, 7:30 pm

        CATALAN- “Given the state of the American healthcare, prison, retirement, and education systems we would expect that most Americans would be soon working as illegals in these Jewish neighborhoods.”

        The Zionist dream come true? A return to the feudal conditions prevailing during the period of Classical Judaism? You may be correct.

      • Mooser
        July 30, 2017, 10:42 pm

        ” You may be correct.”

        And when we consider the number of Jews in the US, as against the number of non-Jews, it’s obvious that competition for the serf and peasant jobs “working as illegals in these Jewish neighborhoods” will be intense. There will be hundreds of Americans begging to work for each Jew.

      • Keith
        July 31, 2017, 1:40 pm

        MOOSER- “And when we consider the number of Jews in the US, as against the number of non-Jews….”

        Not enough Jews to go around? You could be right.

      • Mooser
        August 1, 2017, 11:28 am

        “Not enough Jews to go around? You could be right.”

        And everybody knows that when it comes to political and economic power, rarity increases value!

    • DaBakr
      July 31, 2017, 10:19 pm

      And that’s because American Jews have been engaged in a70 year policy of violence and murder where innocent American civilians were bombed, school children slaughtered and blown up forcing the American government to protect their citizens in your ridiculously hypothetical world.

      • Mooser
        August 2, 2017, 1:29 pm

        “ridiculously hypothetical world.”

        Unlike the real world of “Biblical Israel”

  8. JohnSmith
    July 29, 2017, 3:46 pm

    Just in case anyone here hasn’t yet seen these YouTube clips from a couple years ago by an Australian activist named Robert Martin, I highly recommend them. They give a good portrait of what is going on in the West Bank, and the injustice:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/waxxxinc/videos

  9. German Lefty
    July 29, 2017, 4:25 pm

    I just saw this reader’s letter in our local newspaper: https://picload.org/view/rwrcgwwi/diejudenunddiearaber.jpg.html
    The reader writes: “Islamic anti-Semitism is a political product of the previous century. […] The disastrous policies of the old colonial powers – including the long-term planning of the creation of Israel as an Anglo-French elite project – caused a conflict that still exists today.” He also mentions that Jews and Muslims had lived together peacefully for many centuries before Israel was founded.
    I still can’t believe that our newspaper actually published an openly anti-Zionist piece. I blackened out the author’s name and place of residence in order to protect him from persecution by Hasbara Central.

    • YoniFalic
      August 8, 2017, 11:18 am

      The piece is still extremely misleading and represents racist Jewish and Zionist mental colonization.

      The author genuflects before the misleading anti-Czarist propaganda history of gruesome anti-Jewish pogroms in the Czarist Empire.

      The author glosses over the distinction between the mostly ethnic Arab or Ibero-Berber religious Jews who lived in Palestine and the ethnic Slavo-Turk Jews, who invaded Palestine to steal it and to commit genocide on the natives.

      The discussion of the early development of Zionism is for the most part erroneous.

      Herzl’s Dreyfus spiel did not move Natty Rothschild at all. The Rothschilds became interested in Zionism mostly for business reasons.

  10. James Canning
    July 29, 2017, 5:59 pm

    Netanyahu’s apparent fondness for a Bantustan approach is no surprise.

  11. Ossinev
    July 30, 2017, 10:00 am

    @Jack Green
    “120 people were killed in the Israel/Palestine conflict, yet only Israel is accused of genocide. Please explain”

    Classic whataboutery. Try visualising a situation where the Fuhrer is complaining that only the Germans are accused of genocide whilst claiming that next door Stalin is is doing much worse and no one is complaining.

    It may help you to get your bearings but I have my doubts.

    • Jack Green
      July 31, 2017, 10:22 am

      @Ossinev

      That doesn’t answer my question.

      • JosephA
        July 31, 2017, 11:12 pm

        I once met an otherwise educated man that tried to tell me Palestinians were from SAUDI ARABIA! You say they are from Syria. How about considering that the indigenous, native Palestinians are from Palestine? Don’t worry, there was a small community of Arabic-speaking Palestinian Jews in Palestine before the racist European settler-colonialist zionists took over.

        Yes, demanding that a people do not exist is cultural genocide. Yes, you are immoral.

        P.S. paldocs.net, check it out. And here’s another good site: ifamericaknew.org/history/origin.html

  12. Ossinev
    July 30, 2017, 11:33 am

    @JohnSmith
    Thank you for the You Tube video link. Great to see an honest to goodness tell it like it is Aussie facing up to the cowardly racist IDF goons. Compare him with the loathsome creepy lying Regurgitev – I know which one I would rather share a tinnie with.

  13. Popsiq
    July 31, 2017, 12:32 pm

    Israel developing a ‘Rasse und Seidlungs Hauptamt’ and/or a ‘final solution’ for the Palestinian problem would be an organizational step forward compared to the past practice of letting them ‘run away’ to wherever they want. That’s just messy – moving the problem down the road – and leaving it to grow and fester ….. and continue to inflame the national body.

    Ho hum. History repeats itself – only this time, bottom rung on top.

  14. bhglennie
    August 1, 2017, 1:23 pm

    Remember way back when, the British donated a colony to the U.N. and Palestine was divided into 2 countries – Israel and Palestine. But since then Israel has taken most of the land that was Palestine, and the West has conveniently forgotten there ever ever was a Palestine and now only acknowledges Israel and 2 ghetto/ reservations of West Bank and Gaza

    • Jack Green
      August 2, 2017, 10:56 am

      Every time Israel offers to end the occupation, the Palestinians say “No!”
      Even Prince Bandar bin Sultan of Saudi Arabia (certainly not a Zionist) said that Arafat’s refusal to accept the January 2001 offer was a crime. Thousands of people would die because of Arafat’s decision & not one of those deaths could be justified.

      As Clinton later wrote in his memoir:
      It was historic: an Israeli government had said that to get peace, there would be a Palestinian state in roughly 97 percent of the West Bank, counting the [land] swap, and all of Gaza, where Israel also had settlements. The ball was in Arafat’s court.
      But Arafat would not, or could not, bring an end to the conflict. “I still didn’t believe Arafat would make such a colossal mistake,” Clinton wrote. “The deal was so good I couldn’t believe anyone would be foolish enough to let it go.” But the moment slipped away. “Arafat never said no; he just couldn’t bring himself to say yes.”

      • eljay
        August 2, 2017, 11:12 am

        This again! Well, okay, here goes (again):

        Geographic Palestine was partitioned. Israel accepted and was recognized as a state within its / Partition borders. Anything and everything beyond that was not-Israel.

        But the Zionist dream was (and remains) Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine and Zionist Israelis couldn’t keep it in their pants.

        They had no right to operate in not-Israel; they had no right to occupy (and colonize) any territory in not-Israel; and they sure as shit didn’t need (and still don’t need) anyone’s permission to end their occupation (and colonization) of not-Israel.

      • Jack Green
        August 2, 2017, 12:20 pm

        eljay

        Official borders are set by treaty. There is no treaty between Israel & the Palestinians so no one know what’s Israel & what’s not Israel.

        When Israel was offered peace with Egypt & Jordan, Israel signed & honored peace treaties with Egypt & Jordan even though that meant giving up large parts of Biblical Israel.

      • eljay
        August 2, 2017, 1:19 pm

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … no one know what’s Israel & what’s not Israel. … ||

        Sure we do: Geographic Palestine was partitioned. Israel accepted and was recognized as a state within its / Partition borders. Anything and everything beyond that was not-Israel.

      • Mooser
        August 2, 2017, 1:32 pm

        ” even though that meant giving up large parts of Biblical Israel.”

        And the Bible is a land-deed for the Jews!

      • Jack Green
        August 2, 2017, 2:58 pm

        UN Resolution 181 was only a suggestion.
        Israel accepted the suggestion.
        Then it changed its mind.

      • eljay
        August 2, 2017, 3:36 pm

        || Jack Green: UN Resolution 181 was only a suggestion.
        Israel accepted the suggestion. … ||

        Israel accepted Partition borders and was recognized as a state within them.

        || … Then it changed its mind. ||

        That’s funny. :-)

      • Jack Green
        August 2, 2017, 3:39 pm

        There’s a Torah that’s over a thousand years old. You don’t have to believe in God, but this ancient document lists the names of the owners of the land (the 12 sons of Jacob [aka Israel]) & the boundaries of the land. In other words, it’s a deed to the land naming the children of Israel as the owners. There’s no expiration date or statute of limitations on this deed.

      • Jack Green
        August 2, 2017, 5:13 pm

        eljay

        Why is it funny?
        Israel didn’t break an agreement or violate a treaty because
        there was no agreement or treaty.

      • Mooser
        August 2, 2017, 5:24 pm

        ” In other words, it’s a deed to the land naming the children of Israel as the owners. There’s no expiration date or statute of limitations on this deed.”

        That and about $3.25 will get you a coffee at any Starbucks.

        Oh, BTW, do you want to include a Biblical ‘license to kill’ in furtherance of this deed, given to the Jews by God? Might as well claim that, too.

      • amigo
        August 2, 2017, 6:34 pm

        “Israel didn’t break an agreement or violate a treaty because
        there was no agreement or treaty.” Jack ,(who is very)Green.

        “https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine”

      • amigo
        August 2, 2017, 7:35 pm

        “You don’t have to believe in God, but this ancient document lists the names of the owners of the land (the 12 sons of Jacob [aka Israel]) & the boundaries of the land. In other words, it’s a deed to the land naming the children of Israel as the owners”Cracker Jack.

        Not to be a spoil sport, but these Biblical characters survived in story form through a minimum of 800 years of oral transmission before their stories were ever written down.

        Too bad the Israelities didn,t have a James Comey around to create a some contemporaneous notes.

        Care to tell us why they waited 800 years.

      • Jack Green
        August 2, 2017, 8:24 pm

        Mooser

        Why is that Torah worthless as a land deed?

      • eljay
        August 2, 2017, 8:49 pm

        || Jack Green: There’s a Torah that’s over a thousand years old. … ||

        That’s nice.

        || … You don’t have to believe in God, but this ancient document … [is] a deed to the land naming the children of Israel as the owners. There’s no expiration date or statute of limitations on this deed. ||

        I don’t believe in gods or “deeds to land” based in religious mythology. There’s no expiration date on it because it’s not real.

        || Why is it funny?
        Israel didn’t break an agreement or violate a treaty because there was no agreement or treaty. ||

        Israel: I accept this border and want to be recognized as a state within it.
        World: OK, you’re recognized as a state within that border.
        Israel: Wait…what? Uhhhh, hang on. I changed my mind. I haven’t decided on a border yet, so I’m going to steal and colonize more land.

        Yeah, that’s pretty funny. :-P

      • Jack Green
        August 2, 2017, 9:25 pm

        amigo

        The Oslo Accords were signed September 13, 1993.
        Palestinians violated the Oslo Accords:

        Sep 24 93
        Yigal Vaknin was stabbed to death

        Oct 9 93
        Dror Forer and Aran Bachar were murdered by terrorists

        Oct 24 93
        Two IDF soldiers, Staff Sgt. (res.) Ehud Rot, age 35, and Sgt. Ilan Levi, age 23, were killed by a HAMAS Iz a-Din al Kassam squad.

        Oct 29 93
        Chaim Mizrahi, resident of Beit-El, was kidnapped by three terrorists from a poultry farm near Ramallah. He was murdered and his body burned.

      • amigo
        August 2, 2017, 10:14 pm

        Jack , the framers of the Oslo accords , in their wisdom understood that some violence would occur during the long months of negotiations and nowhere in the text does it state that “individual”acts of violence would constitute the end of the accords.

        For example !!!.

        Within months of the signing of the Oslo agreement, the cycle of violence had restarted. In February of the following year, an Israeli settler had shot dead 29 Muslim worshippers in a mosque in the ancient West Bank city of Hebron.

        You should stay away from C.A.M.E.R.A .They tend to be tribal and not harbingers of the truth , the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

      • amigo
        August 2, 2017, 10:32 pm

        “Why is that Torah worthless as a land deed?” j,g.

        Has a plaintiff/defendant ever introduced the Torah as a legal document / deed in a property dispute.

        Links to cases please that support your claim. I,ll wait.

        You do know how to do your own research outside of the camera /hasbara central link ????.

      • RoHa
        August 2, 2017, 11:52 pm

        “Why is that Torah worthless as a land deed?”

        I’ve got a document (admittedly, not quite as old as the Torah – I wrote it a couple of minutes ago) that lists the names of the owners of a chunk of land. The owners are myself, my wife, my son, and my cat. The document also states that the land in question is bounded by the Indian and Southern Oceans, and the Western borders of the Northern Territory and South Australia. There is no expiration date or statute of limitations on this document.

        Looks like a pretty good land deed to me.

        And mine has even got my signature on it!

        Any signatures on your Torah?

      • RoHa
        August 3, 2017, 3:29 am

        And I’ve just improved it. I’ve added a bit that says the Australian Government and all the people living in that chunk of land agree that I own it.

        It’s absolutely watertight now.

      • eljay
        August 3, 2017, 8:02 am

        || RoHa: … I’ve got a document … that lists the names of the owners of a chunk of land. The owners are myself, my wife, my son, and my cat. … And I’ve just improved it. I’ve added a bit that says the Australian Government and all the people living in that chunk of land agree that I own it.

        It’s absolutely watertight now. ||

        Sounds like you’ve got all your t’s crossed, your i’s dotted and – most importantly – your commas in the right place.

      • Talkback
        August 3, 2017, 8:30 am

        Jack Green: “Why is that Torah worthless as a land deed?”

        Try to use it at any civilized court.

      • Bont Eastlake
        August 3, 2017, 8:49 am

        Private ownership of a piece of land that people had zero role in creating, is fundamentally irrational.

        What difference does it make if the ownership is legitimized by biblical stories or by government deeds?

      • Jack Green
        August 3, 2017, 9:29 am

        eljay

        If you take the deed to your house & write on the deed that God gave this house to you & God performed various miracles in this house, what you’ve written does not invalidate your deed.
        So just ignore anything in the Bible about God & just notice that it has 2 elements of a deed – names & boundaries.

        Israel accepted the boundaries designated by the UN & some countries recognized Israel & some countries did not recognize Israel. The area designated for Jews had Arabs living there & the area designated for Arabs had Jews living there. When Arabs attacked Jews living in areas designated for Arabs, the Jewish army went into those areas to protect the Jews who were living there. Those areas became de facto part of Israel. While countries were free to withdraw their recognition of Israel, none did. Israel is under no obligation to observe the border suggested by the UN when the Arabs refused to accept the border recommended by the UN.

        If I suggested to my friend the electrician that if he does some electrical work for my fried the carpenter, then my friend the carpenter will do some carpentry for my friend the electrician & the electricians says OK, but the carpenter says No, is the electrician still obligated to do the electrical work for the carpenter? Of course not!

      • Jack Green
        August 3, 2017, 9:44 am

        amigo

        Evidence that any judge has refused to accept the Torah as a deed?

      • Jack Green
        August 3, 2017, 9:54 am

        Bont Eastlake

        The purpose of ownership is motivation.
        People will work harder knowing that they can keep the fruits of their labor.
        If you farm common land with lots of other people, everyone gets the same amount of the harvest. There’s no reason to work harder, because no matter how hard you work, you get the same amount.
        If you own property, then there is a reason to work hard. The more you work, the more you get.
        Societies with private property usually do better economically than societies without private property.

      • eljay
        August 3, 2017, 9:56 am

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … If you take the deed to your house & write on the deed that God gave this house to you & God performed various miracles in this house, what you’ve written does not invalidate your deed. … ||

        But it does make me look how you sound.

        || … just ignore anything in the Bible … ||

        Will do.

        || … Israel accepted the boundaries designated by the UN … ||

        That’s right.

      • Bont Eastlake
        August 3, 2017, 10:52 am

        Jack Green,

        So its a matter of productivity then. But in terms of rights, what enables an individual to own a certain land over another individual?

      • MHughes976
        August 3, 2017, 12:29 pm

        If we follow the analogy of title deeds, we might note that most are records of purchases. It is the latest, not the earliest purchaser, who has (on the assumption that title deeds are valid things) the current ownership.
        The analogy is highly misleading because Individual property rights are not the same thing as citizenship rights, which are what is really disputed in Palestine. Citizenship is not normally purchased. Specific citizenship is often claimed by moral right. People who are born in a place and born to parents whose permanent legitimate presence was never questioned have a moral right to be citizens of that place: they don’t have to have paid for it by money or labour, they don’t have to be favoured by the sovereign power. By contrast no one has a moral right to own this or that property unless (if you accept the idea of private property) by labour or purchase or special government decree.
        The moral rights of the Palestinians, who were or are of long standing legitimate presence, have been outraged by their exclusion and disfranchisement. Past dispensations don’t and can’t – at least not by the fact that they once existed – make this any less outrageous. The only way they could matter is if one of them did not just exist but had unique moral status, i.e. was sacred, which means had divine authority.

      • Jack Green
        August 3, 2017, 12:32 pm

        Mooser

        That ‘license to kill’ was at that particular time against that particular people because it was a direct order from God.
        Otherwise, Jews are supposed to obey the Ten Commandments which says “Thou shalt not murder.”

      • Jack Green
        August 3, 2017, 12:39 pm

        People acquire property rights with money.

      • amigo
        August 3, 2017, 1:35 pm

        “Why is that Torah worthless as a land deed?” j,g.

        “Has a plaintiff/defendant ever introduced the Torah as a legal document / deed in a property dispute.”amigo

        Green Jack replies!.

        “Evidence that any judge has refused to accept the Torah as a deed?”

        Hey jacko , I asked for evidence of a case where some wacko religious zionist freak was able to hold unto property using the “Torah ” as proof of ownership.

        Don,t try to be too smart—your not.

        BTW , I am awaiting proof of your claim that Palestinians violated the Oslo accords and that Israel did not.

        I will wait –as usual.

      • Jack Green
        August 3, 2017, 2:37 pm

        MHughes976

        You may think that you own your house, but someday someone may show up with an old deed showing that the person who sold you your house wasn’t actually the owner. That’s why you do a title search before you buy a house & that’s why you buy title insurance.

        I’ve been talking about property rights, not citizenship.

        “disfranchisement?”
        Palestinians in Gaza & the West Bank can vote.

      • Mooser
        August 3, 2017, 4:18 pm

        “That ‘license to kill’ was at that particular time against that particular people because it was a direct order from God.”

        It’s a good thing nobody has a license to kill Jews. And nobody ever gets an order from God to do so, neither.

      • MHughes976
        August 3, 2017, 4:18 pm

        It is still the case, Jack, that the latest, not the earliest, valid property deed is the one in operation.
        The right that people have – well, I think it can be modified with general consent and to general benefit – is to be enfranchised citizens of a sovereign power., not merely of a subordinate authority.
        Property rights depend on the law of the land and the law of the land the law of the land is created by or (at least in reasonable societies) with some reference to the enfranchised citizens.
        The Palestine dispute is not a series of individual disputes about who is or is not the owner of particular parcels of property, it is about who holds sovereign power or is an enfranchised citizen – which brings with it, but is not centred on, the question of who makes the rules about property.
        No individual Israeli has a title to personal property bestowed personally by the scriptures. The point is that Israeli governments have claimed to inherit the sovereign rights of former rulers under former social contracts – and have used these for many purposes, including indeed to rob innocent Palestinians of their property and
        possessions. But former social contracts get replaced by later ones.

      • Jack Green
        August 3, 2017, 5:40 pm

        amigo

        1. Opening Fire On Israeli Forces
        In September 1996, Palestinian policemen opened fire on Israeli soldiers and civilians during the disturbances in Judea, Samaria and Gaza, resulting in the deaths of 15 Israelis. The Palestinian Authority (PA) leadership actively instigated the rioting and took no steps to halt the armed attacks by PA police against Israeli forces. This was the most grievous violation of the Oslo accords to date by the Palestinians. As Joel Singer, legal advisor to Prime Ministers Rabin and Peres and one of the chief architects of the Oslo accords, put it, “The Palestinian policemen committed a very, very serious violation of one of the basic principles in the agreement with Israel. Nothing can justify such behavior.” (Near East Report, October 21, 1996). The accords require that the Palestinian police act to prevent violence and cooperate with Israeli security forces (see, for example, Annex I, Article II). The conceptual foundation of the Oslo Accords is the rejection of violence and force as tools in the conduct of bilateral relations. By initiating violence against Israelis, the PA has violated a cornerstone of the agreement.

        2. Failure To Confiscate Illegal Arms And Disarm And Disband Militias
        The PA is obligated to disarm and disband all militias operating in the autonomous areas and to confiscate all unlicensed weapons (Article XIV; and Annex I, Articles II (1) and XI). Nevertheless, five militias – Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PFLP, the DFLP and Fatah – continue to remain armed, and the PA has refused to disarm them. The PA has failed to undertake a systematic crackdown on illegal weapons, and has confiscated just a few hundred of the tens of thousand of weapons circulating in the autonomous areas. The PA’s violation of these provisions of the accord have allowed terror groups to remain active and well-armed and to carry out deadly attacks against Israelis.

        3. Failure To Extradite Suspected Terrorists To Israel
        The PA is required to turn over for trial all suspects whose extradition is requested by Israel (Annex IV, Article II(7)), yet they have not extradited any of the 19 terror suspects whom Israel has sought for crimes such as murder and attempted murder. By failing to turn over wanted suspects to Israel, the PA has allowed terrorists to go unpunished, thereby encouraging others to carry out attacks in the knowledge that they will not have to answer for their actions.

      • Jack Green
        August 3, 2017, 5:54 pm

        amigo

        It was Mooser who claimed that the Torah was worthless as a deed, so it’s up to Mooser, not me, to come up with proof.

      • Jack Green
        August 3, 2017, 6:05 pm

        Many people have murdered & continue to murder Jews without a license.
        Many people have murdered & continue to murder Jews because they believe that God wants them to.

      • oldgeezer
        August 3, 2017, 6:15 pm

        @jack

        You must be a parody account. C’mon fess up.

        You claimed the torah was effectively a title deed a d ask others to disprove it.

        Get real. The bible is fiction. If you don’t understand that then your parents have failed you as has your community.

      • amigo
        August 3, 2017, 6:26 pm

        “It was Mooser who claimed that the Torah was worthless as a deed, so it’s up to Mooser, not me, to come up with proof.”jacko

        Given that it took 800 years to register or record the deed , I would have to agree that it is worthless.It seems Jews thought so for 800 years.

        Tell you what , you come along and steal my home and we,ll see how long you will squat in my pad using your worthless torah as evidence of ownership.I will make you eat the damn thing—metaphorically speaking , of course , given that you have already swallowed it, at least once.

        Your clearly unbalanced jacko.

      • Mooser
        August 3, 2017, 7:05 pm

        “It was Mooser who claimed that the Torah was worthless as a deed, so it’s up to Mooser, not me, to come up with proof.”

        Zionist omniscience, “Jews sui generis“, and “No trauma ‘long us!” It’s an unbeatable combination.

      • Mooser
        August 3, 2017, 7:19 pm

        “That ‘license to kill’ was at that particular time against that particular people because it was a direct order from God.”

        I’m sure that will be a great relief to the non-Jewish world, and between you’n-me, it’s only fair that they should live their lives worrying if we’ll get another “direct order from God” concerning their little non-Jewish ass…

      • RoHa
        August 3, 2017, 8:27 pm

        “It was Mooser who claimed that the Torah was worthless as a deed, so it’s up to Mooser, not me, to come up with proof.”

        Wrong. The burden of proof generally lies on the positive claim. You made the positive claim that the Torah is a legally valid title deed, so it is up to you to prove it.

        My document is not a valid title deed. It is just a claim, and would be laughed out of court.

        But enough of this. MHughes has demolished your nonsense.

      • RoHa
        August 3, 2017, 8:29 pm

        The only valid licence to kill is issued by MI6.

      • Talkback
        August 4, 2017, 2:04 am

        Jack Green: “You don’t have to believe in God, but this ancient document lists the names of the owners of the land (the 12 sons of Jacob [aka Israel]) & the boundaries of the land. In other words, it’s a deed to the land naming the children of Israel as the owners.”

        But you have to believe that this ancient document is legally authentic. And not a single Jew will ever be able to provide a legally accepted document that proves that this list is authentic and based on reality or how any specific piece of land from these alleged descendants of an alleged person called Jacob was legally and continually passed on specifically to this Jew through all these generations.

        It is not even correct that in the bible God promised the land to “the Jews”. The promise was ultimately made to Jacob’s descendants. Who says that these descendants need to be Jewish after all these generations? They could have be christianized AC and nowadays be the descendants of Christians who cleared out Palestine after the Arab conquest. Or Hebrews that came under Arab rule were islamized and are todays Palestinian Arabs and Bedouins. The Arabians conquered Palestine with their army, but they didn’t colonize it with their civilians.

        And who says that todays Jews can only be descendants of Jacob and not descendants of ancient hebraized Nonjews like Canaanites? Or someone who simply claimed to be Jewish to gain advantage under ancient Hebrew rule? Or someone who conversed to Judaism especially in Judaism’s millenia of proselytism?

        So this whole bible APPROACH can only impress imbeciles or little children. Israel’s academics can’t even proof the so called “exile” on which the “return” propaganda is based upon.

        Jack: “Many people have murdered & continue to murder Jews without a license.
        Many people have murdered & continue to murder Jews because they believe that God wants them to.”

        Would you claim that since Zionist settler colonialism Palestinians murdered more Jews than Jews murdered Palestinians? And please answer the question if Palestinians have the right to reist again and if necessary kill any Jewish combatant of the occupying force.

      • Talkback
        August 4, 2017, 2:49 am

        Jack Green: “You may think that you own your house, but someday someone may show up with an old deed showing that the person who sold you your house wasn’t actually the owner. ”

        Yes, and it is just a strange coincidence in la-la-land that it’s the person’s own handwriting and without any official stamp.

      • Mooser
        August 4, 2017, 10:56 am

        “Many people have murdered & continue to murder Jews without a license.
        Many people have murdered & continue to murder Jews because they believe that God wants them to.”

        And we Jews should have Palestine because God wants us to, with a license to drive away others!

      • Mooser
        August 4, 2017, 11:15 am

        “Get real. The bible is fiction. If you don’t understand that then your parents have failed you as has your community”

        Gee, seems to me they have taught him a very subtle use of the Torah. You can beat people over the head with it.

      • Mooser
        August 4, 2017, 11:35 am

        “Wrong. The burden of proof generally lies on the positive claim.”

        Not if you take “Jack Green’s” prescription. 4 of those pilpuls taken three times a day (with a pastrami sandwich and a glass 2 cents plain) will enable you to invert any logic. Continued use bestows an imperious state in which the poor autodidiaddicted schlemeil confuses himself with God.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        August 4, 2017, 8:46 pm

        Jack Green:

        We are living in the year 2017: It is really easy to get tested, if you are genetically related to those 12 sons of Jacob.

        And since you seem to appreciate the Old Bible so much, I’d like to remind you of some the Commandments given there:

        – Thou shall not kill

        – Thou shall not steal

        – Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbour

        – Thou shall not covet your neighbour’s house, wife, servants, animals or anything else that belongs to them

        So how many points will the Zionists score in the eyes of God, for following those given Commandments??

      • echinococcus
        August 5, 2017, 12:32 am

        That Green very ably exposes both religion and Zionism;

        That ‘license to kill’ was at that particular time against that particular people because it was a direct order from God.
        Otherwise, Jews are supposed to obey the Ten Commandments which says “Thou shalt not murder.”

        In plain English, “thou shalt not murder but I can do that, and how.”

        The essence of both your religions –tribal monotheism and Zionism.

      • Mooser
        August 5, 2017, 3:29 pm

        “Echin” isn’t “Jack Green” a charmer? We go from:

        “That ‘license to kill’ was at that particular time against that particular people because it was a direct order from God.”

        And then we go down a little and “Jack” says:

        “Why have you assumed that I believe in God?”

        Ah, the Zionist God! He’s good enough to sell to the rubes, but not good enough for the…cough,cough…Zionists own use.

      • echinococcus
        August 5, 2017, 4:42 pm

        Mooser,

        I know, it’s a double bingo. Mr. Yaakov Gruen’s trisemitic monogod seems to be even more disgusting than the commenter himself –if such a thing were possible. This might even be a window into the mind of the irreligious “Jewish” Zionist.

        Even more revolting, he’s not wrong: that’s exactly how the shift from the heavily genocidal Ancient Testament has effectively been interpreted in later times (in which the tribe had no genocidal abilities.)

      • gamal
        August 5, 2017, 9:23 pm

        “Why is that Torah worthless as a land deed?”

        Q: how many legs does a cat have if you call its tail a leg.

        A: 4…just because you call the tail a leg doesn’t make it one.

        not even motte and baileying

  15. mcohen..
    August 1, 2017, 7:16 pm

    Land swap 1.
    gaza for parts of westbank including population swaps.gas ,electricity,and water supply to westbank included in deal
    Land swap 2
    Old city of jerusalem including temple mount and wall designated international relegious state accessible to all.like vatican
    Land swap 3.
    Outside that area west jerusalem capital of israel,east jerusalem capital of palestinian state.
    Non compliance will lead to total destruction of jerusalem by earthquake in the first quarter the 2018

    • Jack Green
      August 3, 2017, 10:13 am

      Roha

      You’ve created a valid deed.
      However, the law goes by the oldest document.
      There are other deeds to that property which are older than your deed.

      • Bumblebye
        August 3, 2017, 2:01 pm

        Jack Green/m1945,
        at what point during the past one and a half millennia did the descendents of Palestinian Jews lose their title to their land? Was it when some became followers of the new faiths, Christianity and Islam? Was it when some of them married foreigners who migrated into the area?
        Or was it when a bunch of unrelated foreigners who followed a version of the old faith unrecognisable to those original antecedents decided they wanted the land and were going to take it by violence and thievery?

      • Jack Green
        August 3, 2017, 5:48 pm

        Bumblebye

        Evidence that the foreigners were unrelated to those original antecedents?

        It’s only thievery if you know that it’s someone else’s property. Evidence that the “unrelated foreigners” believed that it was someone else’s property?

        “Who can challenge the rights of the Jews in Palestine? Good Lord, historically it is really your country. What a wonderful spectacle that will be when a people as resourceful as the Jews will once again be an independent nation, honored and complacent, able to make its contribution to needy humanity in the field of morals, as in the past.”

        Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi, the Arab mayor of Jerusalem, in 1899 in a letter to Zadok Kahn, the chief rabbi of France about the rights of Jews to self-determination in the land of the Jews.

      • gamal
        August 3, 2017, 6:38 pm

        “Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi,”

        Alexander Scholch wrote a well known monograph on Yusuf Khalidi, I found something in the Jerusalem review,” An Ottoman Bismark from Jerusalem: Yusuf Diya Al Khalidi”, if you can be bothered it contains some interesting observations and relatively recent history, its a 12 page pdf.

        http://www.palestine-studies.org/sites/default/files/jq-articles/24_scholch_1.pdf

      • gamal
        August 3, 2017, 6:56 pm

        i suppose i should say P.72, of the above pdf will be of especial interest, but read it all is the better option, its for your own good.

        and the second Para on P.73 will encourage that elegant deployer of the Quran Eljay

      • amigo
        August 3, 2017, 8:38 pm

        jacko.

        “Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi, the Arab mayor of Jerusalem, in 1899 in a letter to Zadok Kahn, the chief rabbi of France about the rights of Jews to self-determination in the land of the Jews.”

        Codswollop jacko.

        ” His last known, practically prophetic, political act was a letter to the French head rabbi, Zadok Kahn, a friend of Herzl, written in the spring of 1899. In it Yusuf al-Khalidi expressed his fear that the Zionist movement would jeopardize the friendly association
        of Muslims, Christians and Jews in Palestine, and out of a “holy duty of conscience” and “in the name of God” appealed to the Zionists to leave Palestine in peace.

        The letter was passed on to Herzl, who answered it on 19 March 1899 from Vienna. In his reply, he emphasized the great benefit that the Ottoman empire in general and “la population non juive en Palestine” in particular would derive from Jewish immigration to Palestine. He hoped that the sultan understood this. To this he added threateningly, “S’il n’acceptera pas nous chercherons et croyes moi nous touverons ailleurs ce qu’il nous faut.” [“If he will not accept it, we will search and, believe me, we will find elsewhere what we need.”

        Read the article Gamal linked to and even you might understand why your quote is at best the product of a propagandist.

    • amigo
      August 3, 2017, 1:24 pm

      “People acquire property rights with money.” green jack

      Who then goes on to say !!.

      “However, the law goes by the oldest document.
      There are other deeds to that property which are older than your deed.”

      You treat stupidity as if it is a virtue.Is it intentional.

      • MHughes976
        August 3, 2017, 4:25 pm

        People assert the obvious reverse of the truth, don’t they? How can these things be endured?

  16. Ossinev
    August 3, 2017, 10:10 am

    @JackGreen
    “If you take the deed to your house & write on the deed that God gave this house to you & God performed various miracles in this house, what you’ve written does not invalidate your deed”

    It certainly makes you certifiable.

    • Jack Green
      August 3, 2017, 12:37 pm

      Ossinev

      Most American adults believe that they have been protected by a guardian angel so are most American adults certifiable?
      However, it does not invalidate your deed.

      • amigo
        August 3, 2017, 3:27 pm

        Jack, a few questions re this god of yours.

        1 , Do you have a Photo you can share.

        2, Does he/she/it have an address, phone number/e,mail/twitter or face book .

        3, Is he /she/it in the Who,s who publication.

        4, Age , ethnicity,religion, professional accomplishments , hobbies –other than dabbling in real estate–.

        5, Family History–spouses name–children , Brothers, Sisters.Pets,

        6, Is Yaweh his/her/it,s Christian name. If so, what is the surname.

        You can help by helping us to know him/her/it better.

      • Mooser
        August 3, 2017, 4:31 pm

        “You can help by helping us to know him/her/it better.”

        At one time God spoke (at that time of course, He spaketh, but let it go for now) to the assembled multitudes. But conditions have changed, since the Covenants were broken.

      • RoHa
        August 3, 2017, 8:31 pm

        “Are most American adults certifiable?”

        All MW knows my answer.

      • Mooser
        August 4, 2017, 11:47 am

        “All MW knows my answer.”

        A good thing, a triumph of dissemination, and I commend you for it. For months discussion was seriously impeded in its resolution by the unanswered question: “Just what, really, does “RoHa” think of most Americans?” And now there is no excuse for not knowing the answer.
        Uhhh, BTW, what was it?

      • Jack Green
        August 4, 2017, 6:09 pm

        amigo

        Why have you assumed that I believe in God?

      • Mooser
        August 4, 2017, 7:08 pm

        .”Why have you assumed that I believe in God?”

        “Jackie” nobody assumes you believe in God. Everybody knows Zionists will pimp God or the Torah if it serves their ends.

        But you do realize you have just turned your entire ‘Torah-God-land-deed’ schtik into a Maxwell Smart “Would you believe” skit, don’t you?

        “There’s a God waiting right outside that door, to give Jews Palestine!…You don’t think so? Okay I didn’t think so either…Okay, Would you believe the Torah is an accurate history, and can be used as a land deed?…No? Doesn’t scare you? Weeell, would you believe…”

    • Mooser
      August 3, 2017, 4:20 pm

      “It certainly makes you certifiable.”

      But it won’t certify your deed.

      • MHughes976
        August 3, 2017, 6:01 pm

        ‘Why is all this yours?”
        ‘It was all left to me in Granny’s will’
        ‘But Granny’s signature was forged’
        ‘it’s still all left to me’.
        The last statement could just be true, because a false premise does not prove falsity in the conclusion. But no reasonable person would offer that statement without finding a reason independent of the document that rests on what he implicitly accepts is false authority.

  17. Ossinev
    August 3, 2017, 1:45 pm

    @JackGreen
    “Most American adults believe that they have been protected by a guardian angel so are most American adults certifiable?”

    Are you saying that most Americans when involved in a property dispute ( or any other form of legal dispute including criminal charges ) will plea in court that what they claim/what they did is justifiable because they have a guardian angel.

    Just a quick reminder this is the 21st Century as opposed to the 16th Century. Most Zionists are of course living in a 2nd Century BC biblical bubble. Forget electricity,the internal combustion engine , Americans on the Moon sans guardian angels etc etc. These are all myths. The only realities are blokes building Arks with separate enclosures for separate species and parting seas with the wave of a stick – now that`s what you call reality.

    Sick,pathetic,sad and yes certifiable.

    • MHughes976
      August 3, 2017, 6:09 pm

      Not really serious but to me more thsn pathetic. Makes me shudder.

    • amigo
      August 3, 2017, 6:10 pm

      “By initiating violence against Israelis, the PA has violated a cornerstone of the agreement.” jacko g

      but jacko you just finished telling us there was no agreement.

      See up thread ;

      “Israel didn’t break an agreement or violate a treaty because
      there was no agreement or treaty.” jacko g

      It,s very easy to remember the truth jacko.Keeping all the lies straight
      is a tough road to hoe.

      • Mooser
        August 4, 2017, 11:10 am

        “It,s very easy to remember the truth jacko. Keeping all the lies straight is a tough road to hoe.”

        And if “Jack Green” could hoe that row, or even toe that line, he would be posting on a Zionist site. When they can’t do that, they come to Mondo. Where there’s no bottom on the Zionist bucket.

        It looks to me obvious that the latest herd of ilk have never discussed any of the issues of Zionism with anybody but other Zionists, broaching bravely the difficult questions like: “Is God, or Jewish genius or Jewish military prowess more responsible for Israel’s success?”

      • Jack Green
        August 4, 2017, 6:16 pm

        amigo

        eljay said that Israel had no right to operate outside the borders it had accepted when it declared independence. I said that it had the right to change its mind because it wasn’t violating any agreement. There was no agreement at that time. The Oslo Accords came much later.

    • Jack Green
      August 3, 2017, 6:23 pm

      So should we put most Americans into mental hospitals because they believe they have a guardian angel?

      The Zionists I know are computer savvy 21st century people.

      • Talkback
        August 3, 2017, 10:46 pm

        Jack Green: “So should we put most Americans into mental hospitals because they believe they have a guardian angel?”

        I would, if they’d claim that it was their guardian angel that told them that they have a right to acquire the possession of others. They would be a threat to any civilized society and should be put away.

      • Jack Green
        August 4, 2017, 6:19 pm

        Talkback

        The settlers don’t believe that they are taking someone else’s land. The settlers believe that they are taking back Jewish land which was stolen from the Jews by the Romans & then by the Arab invaders in 636.

      • Mooser
        August 4, 2017, 7:47 pm

        “The settlers don’t believe that they are taking someone else’s land.”

        Yeah, yeah, And what a settler believes, no wise man has the power to reason away.

        But we are right back to the Max Smart skit: “Okay, would you believe… how about: ‘these lands were stolen from the Jews in 636 and we’ve come back, direct descendants, to claim them back’

      • Talkback
        August 5, 2017, 11:48 am

        Jack Green: “The settlers don’t believe that they are taking someone else’s land. The settlers believe that they are taking back Jewish land which was stolen from the Jews by the Romans & then by the Arab invaders in 636.”

        And based on what right? Common faith? That’s pathetic. Can Christians who claim to be descendants from ancient Jews and not converts have a right to take this land back? And what if it turns out that 90% of Palestinans and maybe all Bedouins are the descendants of ancient Jews, if no historian until today has been able to prove that Jews were even exiled, but that it is more likely that they converted to Islam after the Arabians invaded Palestine without colonizing it? Can even a single Jew prove that he’s not descendant of converts?

        What makes this land even Jewish? Jews were not the first to live there. Not the first to rule it. They ruled it only for a short time. And how did they even acquire this land? Was ist “empty” back then, too?

  18. JosephA
    August 4, 2017, 5:49 am

    Summary of the previous 120 comments:

    * Jack Green: “God gave me and all Jews this land, never mind that the Palestinians have been continuously inhabiting it for thousands of years. God gave Jews this land. See, it says so right here in this holy book.”

    * Amigo / RoHa: “God is DEAD! And it’s people like YOU who killed him!”

    • amigo
      August 4, 2017, 11:25 am

      There goes another Jewish myth.

      End times cancelled due to the death the Master of ceremonies.

    • Jack Green
      August 4, 2017, 8:40 pm

      JosephA

      If Palestinians had been continuously inhabiting the land for thousands of years, why was there a 2-year residency requirement for someone to be considered a Palestinian refugee?
      Why are there Palestinians with last names like : al-Masri (the Egyptian), al-Djazair (the Algerian), el-Mughrabi (the Moroccan), al-Yamani (the Yemenite) and even al-Afghani?

      • Jack Green
        August 4, 2017, 8:57 pm

        JosephA

        Why was it that in early in the 20th century a list of no less than fifty languages were spoken in Jerusalem?

      • RoHa
        August 5, 2017, 12:06 am

        In England there are people with “Scott” and ” Dane” as surnames, yet they claim to have been English for generations.

      • Talkback
        August 5, 2017, 10:01 am

        Jack Green: “If Palestinians had been continuously inhabiting the land for thousands of years, why was there a 2-year residency requirement for someone to be considered a Palestinian refugee?”

        THE Palestinans had been continuously living there while SOME Palestinians were living abroad within these two years. THE Jews were not continuously living there while SOME did.

      • Talkback
        August 5, 2017, 10:17 am

        Jack Green: “Why are there Palestinians with last names like : al-Masri (the Egyptian), al-Djazair (the Algerian), el-Mughrabi (the Moroccan), al-Yamani (the Yemenite) and even al-Afghani?”

        Why are there Jews with last names that are not Hebrew?

        The only relevant question is, if they were citizens of Palestine or not. That doen’t count for settlers whose immigration was enforced on to the Palestinians.

      • JosephA
        August 5, 2017, 10:33 am

        I know a Mexican woman whose great-grandfather was Chinese. So are you seriously trying to argue that Palestinians don’t exist because of travel, intermarriage, and surnames? According to your “logic”, my friend is not Mexican.

      • Mooser
        August 5, 2017, 12:25 pm

        I recognize superior salesmanship when I see it. So I will send my entire remaining stock of “Jews sui generis lapel buttons to “Jack Green”.
        I bet he could sell all these “No trauma ‘long us!” bumper-stickers, too.

      • Jack Green
        August 5, 2017, 8:34 pm

        JosephA

        Today’s Palestinians are immigrants from many nations: “Balkans, Greeks, Syrians, Latins, Egyptians, Turks, Armenians, Italians, Persians, Kurds, Germans, Afghans, Circassians, Bosnians, Sudaneese, Samaritans, Algerians, Motawila, Tartars, Hungarians, Scots, Navarese, Bretons, English, Franks, Ruthenians, Bohemians, Bulgarians, Georgians, Syrians, Persian Nestorians, Indians, Copts, Maronites, and many others.”

        (DeHass, History, p. 258. John of Wurzburg list from Reinhold Rohricht edition, pp. 41, 69).

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 5:16 pm

        “Today’s Palestinians are immigrants from many nations: Balkans, Greeks…”

        And the Zionists came from…? Are you trying to denigrate the Palestinians by telling us they are a diverse lot?

        And where did the Zionists come from, Palestine?

      • gamal
        August 6, 2017, 10:02 pm

        “Today’s Palestinians are immigrants from many nations”

        and yet they can all be “Arabs” as well, lesson for you there don’t you think?

  19. Jack Green
    August 4, 2017, 6:31 pm

    oldgeezer

    Evidence that nothing in the Bible is true?

    Whether or not the Bible is fiction, it does have 2 elements of a deed:
    names & boundaries.

    • Talkback
      August 5, 2017, 12:30 pm

      Jack Green: “Whether or not the Bible is fiction, it does have 2 elements of a deed:
      names & boundaries”.

      Ok Jack, proof that the part regarding the deed is neither fictious nor forged. And then proof who is a legal heir to what property. And always make sure that your proof will be recognized as proof in a modern court.

      Or simply shut up with this nonsense.

      • Mooser
        August 5, 2017, 1:25 pm

        ” Agent Jackswell Smart” ‘Weeeel, would you believe…it has two elements of a deed? How about one element?’

      • Jack Green
        August 5, 2017, 8:38 pm

        Talkback

        Modern deeds can also be fiction or forged.
        That’s one reason why we need judges.

      • oldgeezer
        August 6, 2017, 12:08 am

        @jack

        Yet no judges at either the ICJ or the Israeli High Court of Justice have recognized the torah as a land deed. Instead both courts have recognized the Eest Bank and Gaza as occupied territory.

        I retract my comment about you being a parody account with apologies yo all actual parody accounts. You don’t have a quarter of the talent or intellect required.

      • Talkback
        August 6, 2017, 4:17 am

        Jack Green: “Modern deeds can also be fiction or forged.”

        Another straw argument.

        Jack Green: “That’s one reason why we need judges.”

        Yes, and that’s one reason why they would never mistake a text like the Bible for an official and authentic land registry.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        August 6, 2017, 11:12 am

        Jack Green:

        If you really are going to use Bible as a history book, you should remember that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve and as that, all equall under the eyes of God, aren’t we?? (Or are you claiming that there are separate Gods for all of the religions and your God is the right one and everyone else’s is wrong?? – Sounds to me like something only humans can think..)

        And then again, if you say you are a Darwinist and do not think that human history starts with Adam and Eve and the snake and the fruit, then you are already agreeing on that the Bible is not a history book, but rather a collection of metaphorical stories written by humans.. And after that, if you still try to claim, that the Bible can be used as a history book, proving that God promised you and your relatives a piece of land somewhere around “Judea and Samaria”, you have tied yourself in to a knot, where you really need someones help to get yourself released again..

        It is hard for me to find any sense in your writing??

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 6:10 pm

        ” that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve and as that, all equall under the eyes of God, aren’t we??”

        Well, for a while, anyway we were all equal, descendants of refugees from the Garden of Eden. And then things got so bad God ordered a cataclysmic, cleansing flood.
        So the Flood (that’s how big it was, got it’s own capital letter!) came along, wiped out everybody except Noah, the animals (two by two). Emzara and their three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Who gotteth busy begetting,( not just settin’, bidin their time.) and gave rise to the Semites, the Hamites and the Japhites. And you know how that goes…

      • Kaisa of Finland
        August 6, 2017, 9:28 pm

        Mooser:

        Mixing Holy Books in with politics will always lead to a dead end.. Like, if God created everything and we are all God’s creations, did God create the Palestinians only that the Zionists would have someone to oppress and humiliate?? Or why else did God create the Palestinans, if he/she/it anyway had promised the land to the Jews?? It is hard to believe a God would be so foolish..??

  20. Jack Green
    August 4, 2017, 6:37 pm

    Mooser

    “And we Jews should have Palestine because God wants us to, with a license to drive away others!”

    Theodore Herzl, the father of Zionism, said:
    “Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us”

    • Mooser
      August 4, 2017, 7:39 pm

      “Theodore Herzl, the father of Zionism, said:”

      And of course, that is what Zionism has done ever after! How stupid do you think I am, “Jack”? I’m a Jew, I grew up with Zionism in America. I am in my 60’s
      Did Theodore Herzl ever run Israel? Did Herzl ever even go there?
      “Theodore Herzl said…” Do you think the actions of Zionists and Israel are a big secret nobody knows yet?

      • Jack Green
        August 4, 2017, 8:34 pm

        Mooser

        If a Zionist does something wrong, that doesn’t mean that Zionism is bad.
        “Driving away others” is not part of Zionism.

      • Mooser
        August 5, 2017, 12:29 pm

        Jack, I got a joke for you. Q) Why can’t Gazans have electricity?
        A) Because the generators are all set to 60 Herzls-per-second current.

      • Mooser
        August 5, 2017, 12:47 pm

        “If a Zionist does something wrong, that doesn’t mean that Zionism is bad.”

        Of course, “Jackila”. Zionism never fails, there are just Jews who fail Zionism.

        That’s a good line to take, “Jack”, the Communist Party went a long way on that one.

      • eljay
        August 5, 2017, 3:37 pm

        || Jack Green: … If a Zionist does something wrong, that doesn’t mean that Zionism is bad.
        “Driving away others” is not part of Zionism. ||

        My turn: If a pedophile murders someone, that doesn’t mean that pedophilia is bad.
        “Murdering someone” is not a part of pedophilia.

        That seems easy enough.

    • Talkback
      August 5, 2017, 10:08 am

      Jack Green: “Driving away others” is not part of Zionism.”

      Hertzl:
      “We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly.”

      • Jack Green
        August 5, 2017, 3:09 pm

        Talkback

        Don’t forget the rest of the paragraph:

        “Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us”

        In other words, no Arab should be forced to move.

        Furthermore, even trying to entice Palestinians to leave is not part of Zionism. It was what Herzl wanted, but it’s not an intrinsic part of Zionism.

      • Mooser
        August 5, 2017, 3:19 pm

        “We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border” Herzl

        “Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us”
        Herzl

        Aha, so that’s why alternating current is measured in Herzls. Switches back and forth really fast.

      • echinococcus
        August 5, 2017, 4:47 pm

        Stop it, Mooser. You make me laugh even harder than Jack Green and I can’t afford it with my slipped disk.

      • Jack Green
        August 5, 2017, 8:44 pm

        eljay

        If a pedophile murders someone, that doesn’t prove that pedophilia is bad.
        Pedophilia is bad for other reasons.

        If a Zionist does something wrong, that doesn’t prove that Zionism is bad.
        If you think that Zionism is bad, you need to present other reasons.

      • eljay
        August 5, 2017, 10:09 pm

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … Pedophilia is bad for other reasons. … If you think that Zionism is bad, you need to present other reasons. ||

        Zionism is bad for other reasons. If you think that pedophilia is bad, you need to present other reasons.

      • jon s
        August 6, 2017, 10:39 am

        The quote from Herzl is way out of context. He wrote it in June 1895 when he thought that the Jewish state would probably be established in Argentina . In the next day’s entry he writes “I am assuming that we shall go to Argentina” (13th June entry). Note that there’s no mention of Palestine or Arabs at all .
        When Herzl finally came around to the idea of establishing the Jewish state in Palestine he envisaged Jews and Arabs enjoying equal rights.

      • Talkback
        August 6, 2017, 11:30 am

        jon s: “The quote from Herzl is way out of context. He wrote it in June 1895 when he thought that the Jewish state would probably be established in Argentina .”

        Aaaah, and then he fundamentally changed his opinion when he though that it could be established in Palestine where he dreamt about being the “vanguard of culture against barbarianism”.

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 12:04 pm

        “The quote from Herzl is way out of context. “

        Oh please, “Jon s”. What did Herzl who was always alternating, cycling back and forth, have to do with the way “Israel” was established or run?
        Nothing. Did he ever go there? Did he play any part in it? No.

        We are supposed to ignore what Zionists do, because fucking Herzl said maybe they shouldn’t? Please.

      • YoniFalic
        August 6, 2017, 12:38 pm

        How does one know a Zio is lying? Check for breathing. I certainly lied (or stated falsehoods) all the time when I was a Zio and ignorant of Jewish history.

        Here is an online link to one volume of Herzl’s journals.

        https://ia802604.us.archive.org/12/items/theodorherzlsta00herzgoog/theodorherzlsta00herzgoog.pdf

        “The penniless population…” paragraph can be found on book page 98 (113 according to the browser). It’s a June 12 entry.

        It obviously refers to Palestine. The Argentinian government had cleared the vast majority of the native Mapuche out of Patagonia ten years earlier.

        The June 13 entry is found on book page 111 (126 according to the browser). There is nothing about Argentina in it.

        Later in the journal Herzl discusses a letter to de Hirsch and of course Herzl is very positive toward de Hirsch’s ideas. Herzl can’t throw rocks at de Hirsch’s proposal and then ask for a contribution to Herzl’s project.

      • Sibiriak
        August 6, 2017, 12:51 pm

        Cf. http://mondoweiss.net/2014/02/slaughter-settler-spokesman/
        ———————————

        Hostage February 22, 2014, 9:27 pm:

        [James Canning :] A letter in the Financial Times Feb. 22nd raised some interesting issues regarding Shavit’s book, as to what Herzl was planning for the existing population of Palestine, in 1895.

        The Charter of Herzl’s Jewish-Ottoman Land Company (JOLC) contained an article which reserved the right of the Zionists to involuntarily transfer or deport the non-Jewish population of Palestine to other parts of the Ottoman Empire.

        http://www.jstor.org/stable/2537267

      • eljay
        August 6, 2017, 3:47 pm

        || jon s: … When Herzl finally came around to the idea of establishing the Jewish state in Palestine he envisaged Jews and Arabs enjoying equal rights. ||

        It’s not remotely believable that a Jewish supremacist would envision (or support or defend) equal rights for non-Jews in a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” – a construct which would necessarily accord more / different rights to Jews than to non-Jews.

      • YoniFalic
        August 6, 2017, 5:22 pm

        I have already responded to @jon s’s claims about Herzl’s vision in Jewish organizations’ response to Black Lives Matter platform demonstrates inability to engage with reality in Israel

        Herzl was a vicious white racist Euro propagandist justifying genocide of the native population. Here is a famous passage from Altneuland.

        Kingscourt und Friedrich beeilten sich auch fortzukommen. Sie fuhren auf der schlechten Eisenbahn nach Jerusalem. Auch auf diesem Wege Bilder tiefster Verkommenheit. Das flache Land fast nur Sand und Sumpf. Die mageren Äcker wie verbrannt. Schwärzliche Dörfer von Arabern. Die Bewohner hatten ein räuberhaftes Aussehen. Die Kinder spielten nackt in Straßenstaube.

        Kingscourt and Friedrich hurried to get away. They traveled on the miserable railroad to Jerusalem. Even on this route scenes of the deepest depravity. Flat land almost only sand and swamp. The spare cultivated fields as if scorched. Colorless villages of Arabs. The inhabitants looked like robbers. The children played naked in the street dust.

        “Verkommenheit” is something rotten, neglected, ruined; “sand und sumpf,” an infertile land, not cultivated by “civilized” people; scorched fields and the neglected, colorless villages reminds us of a country devastated by war; the inhabitants are either second-class human beings or not human at all; they are criminals, homeless, dishonest, not trustworthy.

        Altneuland is racist colonialist literature, which serves the purpose of justifying the rule of colonizers over savage people. The book is a legitimization narrative, whose content has little connection to the reality of early twentieth century Palestine.

        In @jon s’s mind a German Nazi comic book would depict the highest hopes of the human race if the story described an Aryan superman who slaughtered sinister Jewish rapists and saboteurs.

        @jon s is stuck in a loop. I can be sympathetic. My mind had to shatter and to fall apart before I escaped my Zio mental loop.

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 8:12 pm

        “@jon s is stuck in a loop”

        And why not? Since “Jon s” had a first-class ticket in, no conscription, and a convenient ticket out any time, he’s got no reason to face the reality of Zionism as you did, “Yoni”.

      • RoHa
        August 6, 2017, 9:19 pm

        “He wrote it in June 1895 when he thought that the Jewish state would probably be established in Argentina .”

        So Hertzl wanted to spirit penniless Argentinians over the border?

      • jon s
        August 8, 2017, 7:08 am

        An excerpt from an essay by Efraim Karsh (criticizing Benny Morris):

        Consider, for example, Morris’s charge that Herzl wished to dispossess Palestinian Arabs because of his fear that the Jewish state would lack viability if it were to contain a large Arab minority. Morris bases this assertion only upon a truncated paragraph from Herzl’s June 12, 1895 diary entry, which had already been a feature of Palestinian propaganda for decades.[16] But this entry was not enough to support such a claim. Below is the complete text, with the passages omitted by Morris in italics:

        When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly … It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example … Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us.[17]

        By omitting the opening sentence, Morris hides the fact that Herzl viewed Jewish settlement as beneficial to the indigenous population and that he did not conceive of the new Jewish entity as comprising this country in its entirety. This is further underscored by Herzl’s confinement of the envisaged expropriation of private property to “the estates assigned to us”—another fact omitted by Morris. Any discussion of relocation was clearly limited to the specific lands assigned to the Jews, rather than to the entire territory. Had Herzl envisaged the mass expulsion of population, as claimed by Morris, there would have been no need to discuss its position in the Jewish entity. Morris further ignored context. There was no trace of a belief in transfer in either Herzl’s famous political treatise, The Jewish State (1896), or his 1902 Zionist novel, Altneuland (Old-New Land).[18] Nor for this matter is there any allusion to “transfer” in Herzl’s public writings, his private correspondence, his speeches, or his political and diplomatic discussions. Morris simply discards the canon of Herzl’s life work in favor of a single, isolated quote.

        Most importantly, Herzl’s diary entry makes no mention of either Arabs or Palestine, and for good reason. A careful reading of Herzl’s diary entries for June 1895 reveals that, at the time, he did not consider Palestine to be the future site of Jewish resettlement but rather South America.[19] “I am assuming that we shall go to Argentina,” Herzl recorded in his diary on June 13. In his view, South America “would have a lot in its favor on account of its distance from militarized and seedy Europe … If we are in South America, the establishment of our State will not come to Europe’s notice for a considerable period of time.”[20] Indeed, Herzl’s diary entries during the same month illustrate that he conceived all political and diplomatic activities for the creation of the future Jewish state, including the question of the land and its settlement, in the Latin American context. “Should we go to South America,” Herzl wrote on June 9, “our first state treaties will have to be with South American republics. We shall grant them loans in return for territorial privileges and guarantees.” Four days later he wrote, “Through us and with us, an unprecedented commercial prosperity will come to South America.”[21]

        In short, Morris based his arguments on a red herring. He not only parsed a quote to distort its original meaning, but he ignored the context, which had nothing to do with Palestine or Arabs.

        http://www.meforum.org/711/benny-morriss-reign-of-error-revisited#_ftnref19

    • jon s
      August 8, 2017, 7:20 am

      Herzl’s utopian novel Altneuland describes a society in which Jews and non-Jews enjoy equal rights. From a summary of the plot:

      Löwenberg and Kingscourt spend the following twenty years on the island, cut off from civilization. As they stop over in Palestine on their way back to Europe in 1923, they are astonished to discover a land drastically transformed. A Jewish state officially named the “New Society” has since risen as European Jews have rediscovered and re-inhabited their Altneuland, reclaiming their own destiny in the Land of Israel. The country, whose leaders include some old acquaintances from Vienna, is now prosperous and well-populated, boasts a thriving cooperative industry based on state-of-the-art technology, and is home to a free, just, and cosmopolitan modern society. Arabs have full equal rights with Jews, with an Arab engineer among the New Society’s leaders, and most merchants in the country are Armenians, Greeks, and members of other ethnic groups. The duo arrives at the time of a general election campaign, during which a fanatical rabbi establishes a political platform arguing that the country belongs exclusively to Jews and demands non-Jewish citizens be stripped of their voting rights, but is ultimately defeated.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_New_Land

      • eljay
        August 8, 2017, 8:42 am

        || jon s: Herzl’s utopian novel Altneuland describes a society in which Jews and non-Jews enjoy equal rights. … ||

        NAMBLA’s FAQs are utopian. What do their FAQs or Herzl’s fairy-tale novel have to do with reality?

      • YoniFalic
        August 8, 2017, 11:01 am
      • MHughes976
        August 8, 2017, 12:56 pm

        I know and in a way honour you, jon, for being a Zionist in the Altneuland tradition, though the connection of AN with the harsh reality is not exact, as eljay mentions. I’d suggest that Herzl just did not reckon with the horrible psychological impact on a reasonably settled population of an immigrant group proclaiming, in the later famous phrase, ‘This land is ours’, at least if it clearly meant ‘ours in a deeper way than yours’, which makes the immigration a challenge to the morality and sense of right and wrong that the other population has. There was no attractive or relevant-seeming precedent for doing this – at least without without serious conflict and resistance – in the annals of colonialism to which Herzl could have appealed. He would have noted the fairly recent story of the Trekkers and the Battle of Blood River.
        You could say that his storyline acknowledges, fair and square, that the Jewish colonists could be tempted to go too far. And I think that you too acknowledge this. But he has them resisting the temptation in an atmosphere of success all round and that atmosphere was too much to assume in a situation in which there was bound to be an element of underlying conflict and inequality. I think that when you look at the contrast between what he hoped and what would happen you see that Zionism had no realistic chance of avoiding what Yonah has called (I cite him often) its cruel vector.
        In which context your Karsh/Morris contrast re Herzl is relevant. I’m sure that Herzl never arrived at Morris’s dramatic existentialism but Karsh can’t show that forced relocation (maybe of pre-Colombians in Paraguay, who knows?) could really be avoided on Herzl’s story, even if it would be done quite gently and within a small locality.
        I accept that Herzl might have argued that his Jewish colonists couldn’t have treated the pre-Colombians worse than they’d been treated already.

      • jon s
        August 9, 2017, 1:12 am

        MHughes,
        Thank you, but I was just trying to point out the context of that Herzl quote. My background is probably closer to the Socialist-Zionist tradition than to Herzl’s political Zionism.
        In any case, I happen to think that Herzl is overrrated, that his importance and contribution have been exagerrated. After all, the First Aliyah pre-dates Herzl, and Herzl’s entire Zionist career lasted only eight years, from the publication of” Der Judenstaat” in 1896 to his death in 1904.
        But I suppose that every movement needs a figurehead.

  21. Jack Green
    August 4, 2017, 6:42 pm

    Mooser

    So, if Palestinians are “a people” what are the characteristics, innate, irreducible, congenital and unique, that make them who they are?

    • Mooser
      August 4, 2017, 7:16 pm

      “So, if Palestinians are “a people” what are the characteristics, innate, irreducible, congenital and unique, that make them who they are?”

      Oh, I don’t know. How about LIVING IN PALESTINE AS PALESTINIANS?
      And as far as any of that unique irreducible stuff, they don’t need it to be Palestinians.

      • Jack Green
        August 4, 2017, 9:27 pm

        What percent of Palestine was owned by Palestinians in 1900?
        What percent of Palestinians owned land in 1900?

      • eljay
        August 4, 2017, 9:37 pm

        || Jack Green: What percent of Palestine was owned by Palestinians in 1900?
        What percent of Palestinians owned land in 1900? ||

        Q.: What percent of geographic Palestine was owned by Israelis in 1900?
        A: 0%

        Q.: What percent of Israelis owned land in geographic Palestine in 1900?
        A: 0%

        Q.: How many Israelis lived in geographic Palestine in 1900?
        A: 0

        Q.: How many Israelis lived outside of geographic Palestine in 1900?
        A: 0

      • talknic
        August 5, 2017, 1:16 am

        @ Jack Green August 4, 2017, 9:27 pm

        “What percent of Palestine was owned by Palestinians in 1900
        What percent of Palestinians owned land in 1900?”

        Territory belongs to all its legitimate inhabitants whether they own real estate, rent or lease real estate or live homeless under a bridge.

      • Mooser
        August 5, 2017, 12:08 pm

        “Territory belongs to all its legitimate inhabitants whether they own real estate, rent or lease real estate or live homeless under a bridge.”

        I was hoping you would drop in to say that, “talknic”, and “Annie” was missing you, too.

      • catalan
        August 5, 2017, 1:07 pm

        “Territory belongs to all its legitimate inhabitants whether they own real estate, rent or lease real estate or live homeless under a bridge.”talknic
        I totally agree and I am sure the homeless men and women living under the bridges in Albuquerque feel the same way. Like, they feel that the United States definitely belongs to them and they are proud Americans for getting such a bargain. They wouldn’t want for us to invaded by, say, Sweden, who would force such inconveniences on them as comfortable housing, food, clothing and healthcare, all for free. No sir, they are proud of living under the bridges and begging on the streets next to Costcos and Walmarts. It is true you should come by and check for yourself.

      • Talkback
        August 5, 2017, 2:09 pm

        catalan: “They wouldn’t want for us to invaded by, say, Sweden, who would force such inconveniences on them as comfortable housing, food, clothing and healthcare, all for free.”

        Are you refering to the Zionist destruction of more than 400 villages, looting, stealing bank assets, massacring, raping, expulsion and dispossession of Palestinians?

        I’m very happy that you finally led down your mask catalan and are showing us your true self.

      • Mooser
        August 5, 2017, 2:33 pm

        “No sir, they are proud of living under the bridges and begging…”

        Like Descarte and and Pascal, I bet your comment sounds better in the original French.

      • eljay
        August 5, 2017, 3:34 pm

        || catalan: … I totally agree and I am sure the homeless men and women living under the bridges in Albuquerque feel the same way. Like, they feel that the United States definitely belongs to them and they are proud Americans for getting such a bargain. They wouldn’t want for us to invaded by, say, Sweden, who would force such inconveniences on them as comfortable housing, food, clothing and healthcare, all for free. … ||

        Thanks for driving home the point that Israel is no Sweden.

    • Talkback
      August 5, 2017, 9:30 am

      Jack Green: “So, if Palestinians are “a people” what are the characteristics, innate, irreducible, congenital and unique, that make them who they are?”

      All of these characterics are racist and are irrelevant in the case of nations.

      “Palestinian” is the term of the constitutive people of Palestine. It’s a citizenship that was legally established in 1925 and refers to the citizens of Palestine no matter their heritage or faith. As you can see this term is a civic term and refers to the denizens of a specific territory. It’s like French, British, Russian, US American and all the other countries of the world.

      Compare this to “Jews” who are not a people in the same sense. They are NOT a nation, they are NOT a citizenship. Nobody can become “Jewish” by acquiring a citizenship. Therefore for Israel to be a “Jewish” state it has to apply a similar trick to the Nazis. They artificially differentiate between nationals and citizens to privilige the former. That’s institutionalized racism.

      • Jack Green
        August 5, 2017, 7:47 pm

        Talkback

        To become a Jew, you display knowledge of certain things & promise to do certain things.
        To become an American citizen, you display knowledge of certain things & promise to do certain things.

      • Talkback
        August 6, 2017, 4:22 am

        Jack Green: “To become a Jew, you display knowledge of certain things & promise to do certain things.
        To become an American citizen, you display knowledge of certain things & promise to do certain things.”

        Another straw man argument. It’s not about how one becomes a Jew or an American citizen. It is about the fact that Jewish is not a citizenship and American and Palestinian citizenship is neither an ethnicity nor a faith.

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 11:33 am

        “To become a Jew, you display knowledge of certain things & promise to do certain things.
        To become an American citizen, you display knowledge of certain things & promise to do certain things.”

        “Jack” you really should get over the idea that non-Jews are all much, much stupider than any one of us.

        BTW, now that I know one only has to “promise” to do “certain things” I can understand Jewish proselytism much better.

      • Jack Green
        August 6, 2017, 11:42 am

        Talkback

        Are the Kurds a people?

      • eljay
        August 6, 2017, 8:49 pm

        || Jack Green: … Are the Kurds a people? ||

        Dunno about the Kurds, but the Village People sure are: They knew how to get funky, they promised to get funky…and they got funky!

      • gamal
        August 6, 2017, 10:11 pm

        “and they got funky!”

        I didn’t see that coming, does this mean that everything you play ….gonna be funky….from now on

        https://youtu.be/AMllN21FPms

        We have a right to know.

      • Mooser
        August 7, 2017, 11:16 am

        “Are the Kurds a people?”

        As the ancient Kurdish saying says: “There’s always a whey!”

  22. Jack Green
    August 4, 2017, 6:45 pm

    Talkback

    Jews see themselves as having a common ancestor & a common history, not just a common faith.

    • Mooser
      August 4, 2017, 7:25 pm

      “Jews see themselves as having a common ancestor & a common history, not just a common faith.”

      And Jews can make up new aspects of their religion whenever needed, and every one entitles us to something.
      Or is what you just recited part of our catechism? I don’t think it is.

      Why does how “Jews see themselves” entitle us to anything?

      • Jack Green
        August 4, 2017, 8:49 pm

        Mooser

        Do you think that Jewish refugees from Muslim countries are entitled to be compensated for their land & businesses?

        Do you think that Native Americans are entitled to anything?

    • eljay
      August 4, 2017, 8:55 pm

      || Jack Green: … Jews see themselves as having a common ancestor & a common history, not just a common faith. ||

      Jack.

      You are seriously amusing. The common ancestry and common history of people who have chosen to acquire / hold the religion-based identity of Jewish is based entirely on their faith. (No surprise there.)

      No Judaism = no Jewish identity = no common Jewish ancestry or history.

      • JosephA
        August 5, 2017, 10:37 am

        The Zionists attacked the ancient and thriving Jewish community in Iraq with false-flag attacks, causing them to leave out of fear. So, descendants of Iraqi Jews SHOULD be compensated for their land and businesses — we agree — by the attackers (the Zionists, or by extension, the modern state of Israel).

        http://www.inminds.com/jews-of-iraq.html

        Finally, Jack Green and I are in agreement about something!

      • Jack Green
        August 5, 2017, 3:30 pm

        JosephA

        Evidence that the Farhud was a Zionist false flag operation?

      • YoniFalic
        August 5, 2017, 4:36 pm

        The Iraqi Jewish communal leaders were worried that Jewish celebration of Shavuot would be confused with support of the British overthrow of Rashid Ali al-Gaylani’s nationalist government. These Jewish leaders demanded that all celebration of Shavuot take place within the synagogues.

        Despite the desires and express orders of the Jewish communal leaders, the tiny minority of Zionists combined Shavuot festivities explicitly and publicly with support for British actions in the hope of provoking a reaction from angry supporters of Rashid Ali al-Gaylani.

        The Zionists then argued that Iraqi non-Jews were hopelessly anti-semitic and that it was untenable for Iraqi Jews to continue to live in Iraq.

        I am baffled that anyone at this late date treats as antisemitism a predictable reaction to outrageous Jewish provocation.

        In some sense this provocation was a re-run of the Revisionist provocations in Jerusalem in 1929 and of the racist Jewish provocations in Przytyk in 1936.

      • gamal
        August 5, 2017, 7:30 pm

        the Farhud:

        “The time was 1940 and Britain was reeling from a strong German offensive. Al-Kilani and the Golden Square saw this as their opportunity to rid themselves of the British once and for all. Cautiously they began to negotiate for German support, which led the pro-British regent Abd al-Ilah to dismiss al-Kilani in January 1941. By April, however, the Golden Square officers had reinstated the prime minister.

        This provoked the British to send a military force into Basra on April 12, 1941. Basra, Iraq’s second largest city, had a Jewish population of 30,000. Most of these Jews made their livings from import/export, money changing, retailing, as workers in the airports, railways, and ports, or as senior government employees.

        On the same day, April 12, supporters of the pro-British regent notified the Jewish leaders that the regent wanted to meet with them. As was their custom, the leaders brought flowers for the regent. Contrary to custom, however, the cars that drove them to the meeting place dropped them off at the site where the British soldiers were concentrated.

        Photographs of the Jews appeared in the following day’s newspapers with the banner “Basra Jews Receive British Troops with Flowers.” That same day, April 13, groups of angry Arab youths set about to take revenge against the Jews. Several Muslim notables in Basra heard of the plan and calmed things down. Later, it was learned that the regent was not in Basra at all and that the matter was a provocation by his pro-British supporters to bring about an ethnic war in order to give the British army a pretext to intervene.

        The British continued to land more forces in and around Basra. On May 7, 1941, their Gurkha unit, composed of Indian soldiers from that ethnic group, occupied Basra’s el-Oshar quarter, a neighborhood with a large Jewish population. The soldiers, led by British officers, began looting. Many shops in the commercial district were plundered. Private homes were broken into. Cases of attempted rape were reported. Local residents, Jews and Muslims, responded with pistols and old rifles, but their bullets were no match for the soldiers’ Tommy Guns.”

        http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_iraqjews.html

        a good brief account of British operations in Iraq 1940 on..

        https://www.saylor.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/HIST351-10.2.2-Anglo-Iraqi-War.pdf

      • gamal
        August 5, 2017, 7:45 pm

        the two paras following what i posted from Bint Jbeil link :

        “Afterwards, it was learned that the soldiers acted with the acquiescence, if not the blessing, of their British commanders. (It should be remembered that the Indian soldiers, especially those of the Gurkha unit, were known for their discipline, and it is highly unlikely they would have acted so riotously without orders.) The British goal clearly was to create chaos and to blacken the image of the pro-nationalist regime in Baghdad, thereby giving the British forces reason to proceed to the capital and to overthrow the al-Kilani government.

        Baghdad fell on May 30. Al-Kilani fled to Iran, along with the Golden Square officers. Radio stations run by the British reported that Regent Abd al-Ilah would be returning to the city and that thousands of Jews and others were planning to welcome him. What inflamed young Iraqis against the Jews most, however, was the radio announcer Yunas Bahri on the German station “Berlin,” who reported in Arabic that Jews from Palestine were fighting alongside the British against Iraqi soldiers near the city of Faluja. The report was false.”

      • Jack Green
        August 5, 2017, 8:20 pm

        YoniFalic

        Antisemitism, like other forms of racism, is treating people as member of a group rather than as individuals. There’s no justification for racism. If there were no antisemitism & a Jew did something bad, you would punish that Jew, not any other Jews.

      • Nathan
        August 6, 2017, 3:49 am

        Yoni – There was no “provocation”, and there was no “outrageous Jewish provocation” in Iraq. However, your sense of history is really not the important issue. The issue is that you justify violence (180 people were murdered in the Farhud). Why do you feel that you have to explain the murderous behavior of a mob? In the past, you felt that it was very important “to prove” that Herod was not the king of Judea. That silly point of view was based on some sort of ideology (perhaps, you feared that Zionism would be justified if, indeed, there had been a Kingdom of Judea in antiquity). Now, perhaps, you fear that the murderous riots in the Arab world might (heaven help us) justify the immigration of the Jews to Israel. Whatever your motivation might be, the bottom line is that you are on record as one who justifies murder for whatever the reason might be (even imaginary).

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 11:44 am

        “Antisemitism, like other forms of racism, is treating people as member of a group rather than as individuals” “Jack Green”

        I see.

        “Jews see themselves as having a common ancestor & a common history, not just a common faith.”
        “Jack Green”

        “To become a Jew, you display knowledge of certain things & promise to do certain things.” “Jack Green”

        Gee, that sure sounds like a “group” to me. Rather closer than a mere group.

        (I never in my life thought I would meet Jews who think the only reason to pick us out is to pick us up, not to pick on us. No trauma ‘long us, boss! To know us is to love us.)

      • YoniFalic
        August 6, 2017, 3:11 pm

        I suppose Bruce Willis’ sign in this videoclip is not provocative.

        Jewish racists will never admit that a Jew could do anything provocative, and they are sure that non-Jews are always guilty.

      • YoniFalic
        August 6, 2017, 3:52 pm

        Jack Green writes the following.

        YoniFalic

        Antisemitism, like other forms of racism, is treating people as member of a group rather than as individuals. There’s no justification for racism. If there were no antisemitism & a Jew did something bad, you would punish that Jew, not any other Jews.

        By Jack Green’s standards doesn’t the following response to Talkback make Jack Green a vicious antisemite.

        Talkback

        Jews are a people, not just a religion.
        The Bible doesn’t refer to Jews as a community of believers.
        First they’re a family, then tribes, then they get the Torah.
        The Jews had a king & an army. That’s a nation, not just a religion.

        I know several Jewish atheists. If being Jewish were just a religion, it would make no sense to call yourself a Jewish atheist.

        To tell the truth, as an historian I cannot accept the definition of antisemitism as a form of racism unless the hatred that the French Reign of Terror expressed against French nobles is also considered a form of racism — something, which the Reign of Terror patently was not.

      • yonah fredman
        August 6, 2017, 6:10 pm

        Regarding Farhud: It was natural for the Jewish residents of Baghdad to oppose the Nazis and it was natural for the Arab residents of Baghdad to oppose the British and it was this natural tension which was the underlying cause for the murder of the Jews in the Farhud. (a historical explanation should not be considered an excuse or a justification and even if the violence did not find its roots in internal Arab/Muslim feelings towards Jews, it certainly did not make Jews feel safer.)

      • YoniFalic
        August 6, 2017, 7:46 pm

        But Rashid Ali al-Gaylani and his government were no more Nazis than the Finnish government was Nazi even though shortly after the British overthrew the Iraq nationalist government, Finland allied with the German Nazi government.

        The Iraqi nationalists were positively disposed to Germany because Germany was an enemy of the UK, which had imposed on Iraq a quisling government, which the political class in Iraq despised. Iraqi Jews were in fact native collaborators with the British Empire, but the Iraqi political class tolerated the collaboration because political Iraqis understood that some degree of collaboration with the UK was necessary to keep the Iraqi economy functioning.

        Hence the nationalist government left Jews alone.

        Jews only ran into a problem when Zionists turned Shavuot into a celebration of the overthrow of the nationalists by the British and thereby purposefully created a frenzy of anger among Iraqi masses, who had been inspired by the nationalist coup and had not even thought about the Jews before the Zionist celebration of British victory over the Iraqis.

      • YoniFalic
        August 6, 2017, 8:04 pm

        BTW, the Finnish government unlike the Iraqi nationalist government did in fact turn some Jewish refugees over to the Germany. I believe the German Nazis murdered all but one.

        Even though the USSR was the main force against German expansion in the East and against the mass murder of Jews, Finnish Jews fought bravely for Finland against the USSR in units that sometimes were in close proximity to German units. The Germans awarded a good number of Finnish Jews medals for bravery. The Finnish Jews declined to accept the medals.

    • Talkback
      August 5, 2017, 9:39 am

      Jack Green: “Jews see themselves as having a common ancestor & a common history, not just a common faith.”

      You don’t seem to know much about the diversity of Jews and Judaism’s proselytism.

      But what’s your point?

      Jck Green: “Do you think that Jewish refugees from Muslim countries are entitled to be compensated for their land & businesses?”

      Are they registered as refugees?

      • Jack Green
        August 5, 2017, 3:26 pm

        Talkback

        Diverse people can have a common ancestor.

      • Mooser
        August 5, 2017, 6:30 pm

        “Diverse people can have a common ancestor.”

        Yes, wasn’t her name “Lucy”?

      • Talkback
        August 6, 2017, 4:03 am

        Jack Green: “Diverse people can have a common ancestor”

        And members of a religious groups can have diverse ancestors and descendants who divert.

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 11:39 am

        “Diverse people can have a common ancestor”

        And so Jews should have no trouble at all seeing Palestinians or Arabs as equals. Common ancestors, you know.

    • Mooser
      August 6, 2017, 11:37 am

      “Jews see themselves as having a common ancestor & a common history, not just a common faith.”

      “To become a Jew, you display knowledge of certain things & promise to do certain things.”

      Anything else?

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 6:23 pm

        “Anything else?”

        Now I’m stuck. I just know there’s another way to become Jewish, besides the “common ancestor” and “knowledge” and “promise to do”. The way, in fact, almost every Jew becomes Jewish, but I can’t think of what it is.

      • RoHa
        August 6, 2017, 8:14 pm

        Don’t you have to send in five box tops and a postal order for two shillings and sixpence?

      • Mooser
        August 7, 2017, 12:48 pm

        “Don’t you have to send in five box tops and a postal order for two shillings and sixpence?”

        Nope, and no SASE required. All you have to do is be born to parents who identify as Jewish, and then events just sort of sweep you along. Very little consideration of common ancestors, knowledge, or promises to do “certain things” required.

  23. Jack Green
    August 4, 2017, 6:48 pm

    Mooser

    “The problem, of course, is that ‘non-Jewish countries’ refuse to recognize this and hand the Jews over to the Zionists, wholesale.

    Are you saying that Israel has asked other countries to forcibly transfer all their Jewish citizens to Israel?

  24. Jack Green
    August 4, 2017, 6:54 pm

    RoHa

    Please don’t put words in my mouth.

    • Mooser
      August 4, 2017, 7:30 pm

      “RoHa please don’t put words in my mouth.”

      Yeah, don’t put words there, that’s where the bulb goes. A projector won’t work without a bulb.

    • RoHa
      August 4, 2017, 11:39 pm

      I didn’t know I had put words into your mouth. I do apologise. Please let me know which words they were, and I’ll remove them.

      • Jack Green
        August 5, 2017, 3:19 pm

        RoHa

        ” You made the positive claim that the Torah is a legally valid title deed”

        What I actually said was that the Torah has 2 elements of a deed: names & boundaries.

      • RoHa
        August 5, 2017, 8:54 pm

        I stand corrected.

        From the general tenor of your comments I inferred that you thought it mattered. My mistake.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        August 6, 2017, 11:47 am

        RoHa:

        “I didn’t know I had put words into your mouth. I do apologise. Please let me know which words they were, and I’ll remove them..”

        I’d love you to put some words into my mouth, but could I please choose the language??

      • RoHa
        August 6, 2017, 9:21 pm

        I can’t do it in Finnish. Echi might be able to.

        (I wonder if he knows what “etchi” means in Japanese?)

      • Kaisa of Finland
        August 6, 2017, 10:07 pm

        RoHa:

        “I can’t do it in Finnish..”

        What about in a language neither of us knows.. In Urdu perhaps??

      • RoHa
        August 7, 2017, 12:25 am

        Then how will either of us know they are real words?

      • Tuyzentfloot
        August 7, 2017, 7:39 am

        (I wonder if he knows what “etchi” means in Japanese?)

        not many people know what “Etchi homo” means in japanese.

      • Annie Robbins
        August 7, 2017, 9:58 am

        speaking of etchi, can someone explain to me what tvfilthyfrank means at the end of the video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=proylafJBGk

        “what about israel? what about israel?”

      • YoniFalic
        August 7, 2017, 11:58 am

        I took Annie’s question as a challenge and watched several of TvFilthyFrank’s videos. He tries to be as offensive as possible worldwide.

        He did an accent sequence in which he did Palestine but left out Israel, but not really because later, he added some screeching: “What about Israel”

        Thus he was obnoxious to Israelis. Then he added the screeching to the Japanese pussy video.

      • Annie Robbins
        August 7, 2017, 12:17 pm

        oh my. thanks for the research. sort of strange/interesting. and he has 5m followers!

  25. Jack Green
    August 5, 2017, 3:22 pm

    What percent of Palestine was privately owned by Palestinians in 1900?
    What percent of Palestinians owned private property in Palestine in 1900?

    • Talkback
      August 6, 2017, 4:11 am

      Why do you ask?

      Why is it so difficult for you to understand that it’s not about PRIVATE property, but about the right to self determination of the citizens of a counrtry in all of it?

      Do you really want to make a case for the creation of Israel allthough Jews’s private ownership in Palestine in 1946 was about 3% not including the JNF’s posession of another 3% and Nonjews posessed about 48,5%. The rest was 6% public and uncultivated land (Negev desert, etc.).

  26. Jack Green
    August 5, 2017, 8:23 pm

    inococcus

    No.

  27. Jack Green
    August 5, 2017, 8:27 pm

    Talkback

    The settlers & millions of Christians believe the Bible which says that God gave the land to the Jews.

    • Talkback
      August 6, 2017, 4:41 am

      So what Jack Green? Do you actually realize that it takes two claims to make an argument?

      So they BELIIVE this AND therefore are entitled to do what based on their BELIEVE? Use force to act out their BELIEVES? Than they are not different from islamistic terrorists.

      And what happened between this statement of yours and your “Whether or not the Bible is fiction …” before? Were you recruited by members of the ‘Jewish State in the Levante’?

      • Jack Green
        August 6, 2017, 11:27 am

        Talkback

        I told you what settlers believe.
        I did not say that they are entitled to take land by force.

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 2:44 pm

        “I told you what settlers believe.”

        Time for some Doobie Brothers

      • Kaisa of Finland
        August 6, 2017, 3:18 pm

        Mooser:

        I still prefer this one:

      • amigo
        August 6, 2017, 4:23 pm

        “I told you what settlers believe.
        I did not say that they are entitled to take land by force.”jacko

        So why the f–k are you espousing the legal virtues of the torah.

        Jacko , a few more questions.

        1, Are You Jewish.

        2, Are you a zionist.

        3,Do you believe , that those Jews who believe that this so called yaweh chap gave them the right to take any land they believe he gave them.

        4,Do you believe that had the nazis believed their god told them to wipe out the Jews , they would have had a right.

        Be careful jacko , these are trick questions.Contact some adults for help before you track all that horse manure around your pad.

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 4:56 pm

        “Kaisa” Both “Long Train Running” and “What a Fool…” were huge hits. “Train” is livelier, has a better beat.

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 5:00 pm

        “4,Do you believe that had the nazis believed their god told them to wipe out the Jews , they would have had a right.”

        Channeling “Jack”: ‘Prove that their god didn’t tell them to wipe out the Jews. Prove that they didn’t have a right to do it!’

      • Kaisa of Finland
        August 6, 2017, 9:39 pm

        Mooser:

        “Both “Long Train Running” and “What a Fool…” were huge hits..”

        When I was in High School in the beginning of the 90’s, we used to have huge parties every weekend and I don’t think there was even one party where the Long Train Running would not have been played atleast once (and often again and again).. We girls loved to dance and it is hard to find a better beat than in this.. :) (Still makes me wanna dance each time I hear it!!)

      • Talkback
        August 7, 2017, 6:46 pm

        Jack Green: “I told you what settlers believe.
        I did not say that they are entitled to take land by force.”

        I’m asking you again. SO WHAT? If they believe this? It takes to claims to make one argument Jack:

        1.) The believe this 2.) AND therefore …

        Therefore what Jack? What legal right does a believe create?

    • Talkback
      August 6, 2017, 5:35 am

      Jack Green: “In other words, no Arab should be forced to move.

      Furthermore, even trying to entice Palestinians to leave is not part of Zionism. It was what Herzl wanted, but it’s not an intrinsic part of Zionism.”

      Again, Herzl: “… the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor …” Sounds very enticing to Nonjews ìn Palestine, right?

      Wikipedia says: “Zionism is the national movement of the Jewish people that supports the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel”

      How could immigration and homeland establishment have been achieved without using force against the people of Palestine?

    • Mooser
      August 6, 2017, 11:55 am

      “The settlers & millions of Christians believe./..”

      A merciful and benevolent Providence made sure my coffee mug was on the desk when I read that, not at my lips or in my hand. Woulda been a mess.

      ‘Well, would you believe, “The settlers and millions of Christians believe….” Agent Jackswell Dumb.

      • Jack Green
        August 6, 2017, 12:48 pm

        Mooser

        Please don’t put words in my mouth. I did not say that gentiles are dumber than Jews.

        What “Jewish proselytism?”

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 2:36 pm

        “What “Jewish proselytism?”

        “Jack Green” don’t be ridiculous. of course there is Jewish proselytism When people are very poor and in desperate circumstances, they will do almost anything, no matter how compromising or shameful, to survive, even proselytize themselves.

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 3:50 pm

        “Please don’t put words in my mouth.”

        Why bother? Your own will choke you. Your every comment is collected in an “archive”, accessible by clicking your name above your comment.

      • eljay
        August 6, 2017, 8:56 pm

        || Mooser: … Your every comment is collected in an “archive”, accessible by clicking your name above your comment. ||

        That’s way too much silliness for just one archive.

  28. JosephA
    August 6, 2017, 8:42 am

    Nathan and Mr. Green,

    While I certainly appreciate your persistence, it seems we are all talking past each other.

    You both seem to excel in the usage of logical fallacies: https://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/eng207-td/Logic%20and%20Analysis/most_common_logical_fallacies.htm

    Let’s take a step back and might I ask, is there anything, any point on which we agree? In all seriousness, I would like to have a dialogue with you both if that were humanly possible.

    Let me ask you: do you believe that the laws on the books in the modern state of Israel (Palestine), including the occupied territories, are discriminatory? If so, how should this be remedied? If not, why not?

    Remember, this thread is in response to an article where an actual Israeli government official has openly advocated for war crimes and cultural genocide.

    • Jack Green
      August 6, 2017, 11:34 am

      JosephA

      Jews had been persecuted for centuries in majority-gentile countries. Even when not actively persecuting the Jews, the majority-gentile countries refused to give refuge to the Jews when they needed it. There would have been no Holocaust if majority-gentile countries would have allowed in Jewish refugees who were escaping from the Nazis. The idea of Zionism was that Jews would return to their homeland & have a majority-Jewish country because majority-gentile countries had failed to provide safety for the Jews.
      Therefore, I favor automatic Israeli citizenship for any Jew or at least any Jew who is in danger.

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 12:27 pm

        “Therefore, I favor automatic Israeli citizenship for any Jew or at least any Jew who is in danger.”

        Sorry, “Jack”, but Israel has an extradition treaty with the US, and many other countries. Hate to be the one to break it to you, but there’s no Hole in The Wailing Wall Gang.

  29. Jack Green
    August 6, 2017, 11:51 am

    Suppose land is for sale in Israel & that 2 people have made equal highest offers. One is a Jew & the other is a Christian. The Jew says that he should be allowed to buy the land because the land belonged to his ancestors who were dragged off their land by Roman soldiers to be slaves in Europe.
    I think that the Jew should be allowed to buy that land.

    • Mooser
      August 6, 2017, 12:25 pm

      “I think that the Jew should be allowed to buy that land.”

      No! You really think that? Well, you are the best judge, free from any self-interest or bias, so I guess we will have to go with your decision.

      “dragged off their land by Roman soldiers to be slaves in Europe.”

      Oh how horrible!

    • eljay
      August 6, 2017, 12:49 pm

      || Jack Green: Suppose land is for sale in Israel & that 2 people have made equal highest offers. One is a Jew & the other is a Christian. The Jew says that he should be allowed to buy the land because the land belonged to his ancestors who were dragged off their land by Roman soldiers to be slaves in Europe. … ||

      Equal offers, flip a coin. The religion-based identity of “Jewish” is not an entitlement to anything, and allegations of Roman wrongdoings 2000 years ago are utterly irrelevant in the 20th and 21st centuries.

      Curious: Are you being fed these idiotic arguments to type out on MW, or are you making this crap up all on your own?

      || … I think that the Jew should be allowed to buy that land. ||

      Of course you do: You’re a Jewish supremacist – a Zionist.

      • Mooser
        August 6, 2017, 2:39 pm

        ” The Jew says that he should be allowed to buy the land because the land belonged to his ancestors who were dragged off their land by Roman soldiers to be slaves in Europe. … “

        And the Christian says: “Oh yeah, well I should get the land because my ancestors were the Roman soldiers who dragged them off, loser!”

      • amigo
        August 6, 2017, 5:25 pm

        Mooser.

        “And the Christian says: “Oh yeah, well I should get the land because my ancestors were the Roman soldiers who dragged them off, loser!”

        Mooser , your,e not listening .Jack green has already told you , that it is the oldest claim that counts.

        As long as the claimant is Jewish and is armed with a copy of the Torah.

      • Mooser
        August 7, 2017, 11:56 am

        ” that it is the oldest claim that counts.”

        And weakness is strength!

    • RoHa
      August 6, 2017, 11:55 pm

      A few things the Christian might say.

      1. Show me your family tree, pick out the ancestor, and prove he owned the land.

      2. One of my Crusader ancestors bought it fair and square from the registered owner. He then sold it on to a Turk. I’m buying it back.

      3. The land belonged to my Canaanite ancestors who were driven off the land by Jews.

    • Talkback
      August 7, 2017, 6:42 pm

      Jack Green: “Suppose land is for sale in Israel & that 2 people have made equal highest offers. One is a Jew & the other is a Christian. The Jew says that he should be allowed to buy the land because the land belonged to his ancestors who were dragged off their land by Roman soldiers to be slaves in Europe.
      I think that the Jew should be allowed to buy that land.”

      You don’t have to remind us how lucky the world is that you are not a judge.

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