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someone must have put something in the water. this comment thread is over the top.
a delicate flower? where do you come up w/this stuff?
another thing, i would have not believed what they put those children thru had it not been a documentary. this is child abuse and brainwashing.
it was an excellent film. i thought the trip the kids took was to the ukraine tho, i could be mistaken. i can't recommend the film enough. interestingly i had never heard of the holdomor genocide until the scene w/foxman in the ukraine.
There is no beginning point, 20 years, 40 years, 60 years, 80 years.
then he shouldn't have chosen one. but since he did wouldn't it have been prudent to mention israel's action's that precipitated (oh i forgot israel never precipitates, only responds) during any of this period as the students mentioned? goldstone didn't go back to the suicide bombings. using 20 yrs old actions to justify cast lead is bullshit. israel went into a ceasefire w/bad intentions to use that time to plan a war while hamas largely respected the ceasefire. israels actions on the 4th were to give it pretense to invade, an action it had already decided to do. this whole crap about the 90's in halbertal's introduction is BS. and you know it. goldstone wasn't task with investigating the history of israel/palestine's violent behavior.
i read some of halbertal's article, not the whole thing. he begins with w/israels justification for the doctrine. he starts back at the beginning of the 90's wrt to israels security needs but fails to address the primary reasons israel is threatened to begin with, the constant expansion and theft of land. obviously the way to enhance the security of israel is to eliminate the actions and policy that create the primary cause of hostility towards it...i mean if you are going back 20 years one might imagine mentioning the amount of land confiscated during that period. while he addressed goldstones reference to finding no evidence militants intentionally used civilians areas for shields he did not mention how goldstone came to that conclusion..which was the evidence suggested as the idf invaded and cleared areas evidence suggested militants moved into the area that had not been cleared, which would eventually lead to those civilian areas, thereby, according to him and israel justify targeting those areas, which israel then blames hamas. this we have heard over and over and is the 'moral' justification israel apologists have used repeatedly also accusing goldstone of NOT mentioning hamas commited war crimes by targeting israel from civilian area (as opposed to the war crime of targeting civilian areas, which goldstone did accuse hamas as doing). but, targeting from civilian areas is not a war crime, something israel has tried to change thru appeals to the international court. he also evades the obvious..that israel at no time provided the evacuation of civilians which it could have done. this would have eliminated th problem. even in fallujah, a massive criminal invasion the US military allowed for the evacuation of women and children.
lots of problems w/the new republic piece.
In this case, Hamas initiated a status of war (distinct from a status of cease-fire, and distinct from a status of skirmish – November 4 and following). Israel responded at a scale that was excessive.
is this a joke? invading gaza and killing 10 people is a skirmish and the onset of rockets as a result of israel breaking the ceasefire is a hamas initiating a status of war? you are a joke dick.
The only valid inquiry that a dissenter can make to an operation is of decision-points......The end-result is not accurately criticizable, only the decision-points are.
according to you. you would like to limit the scope of area that is valid to critique.
The valid points in the critique that I see are of the scale of the operation, and clarification of the objectives
they did that in this letter. they critiqued the scale of operation, and the objectives. and you chose to ignore that critique.
what turns out in retrospect to be a wrong decision (the scope of war to engage in) is a different decision than was made in the then present.
so what if they are different? you are playing word games. it was a wrong decision at every step of the way and your caveat of 'in retrospect' serves only to shield people from responsibility w/the inference they could not or did not realize it was a bad decision at the onset. if i murder someone and say to you..'in retrospect it was a wrong decision and that is different than what i thought at the time' would that make me less culpable? yet you say it is valid critique the scale and objectives, while no one needed to rely on retrospect oir monday morning quarterbacking to know the results because you yourself referenced the parallel to lebanon which was a huge failure. but then there was a decision made to legalize the same strategy?? yes there was, called the Dahiya Doctrine. so do not give me this 'in resprospect'. i could continue going thru your post like this pointing out the bullshit w/every line practically. you did't address specifics in the letter, you highjacked instead telling us what you saw as valid..without even reading the source document.
i still believe there is a process...mitchell is a good man..keep some faith, it isn't over til the fat lady sings.
thanks phil..pins and needles as always
thank you so much for your sharing your incredible gift with us. my heart longs to be back in gaza .
in solidarity
The belief that Israel is as entitled as any country to exist, to perpetuate its culture/religion by design, and to protect that existence, does not entail belief in a “pure” anything.
actually it does, or we would not ever be hearing about all this demographics bullshit. it would be like utah deciding to restrict growth except for more mormons to preserve its culture. all the land laws in israel prevent palestinian israelis from the same rights as jewish citizens and if that is not 'pure' anything i don't know what you would call it. the marriage laws are very much centered around prevention of mixed religions and ethnicities. this does nothing to protect israel 'existence', it merely protects the way it exists. other countries do not exist out of entitlement, therefore 'Israel is as entitled as any country to exist' is a non sequitur. and let's note that other countries exist with borders and are not constantly expanding outside those borders. so what israel is really asking for is to exist in a form other countries are not afforded under internation al law.
just saying.
#1 it is not a secret
#2 what chutzpah to allude to some fantasy you can speak for anyones true motivation. first and foremost i was raised in america, land of the free home of the brave (or so they say). i actually bought all that crap about equality and freedom and democracy. i was not indoctrinated from the womb to acknowledge or accept any kind of specialness or exception to the rule. not being a religious person but having a family background that respects those of faith i respect the holy land and understand its importance to christianity, judaism and islam and respect the importance of jerusalem for all of those faiths. i see no reason to make an exception for one faith or people over another when it comes to human rights nor do i ascribe to any concept nations, states or citizenship should be afforded or withheld due to race creed religion or any other ethnic category. the idea of citizenship being denied based on ethnicity is anathema, adverse to american culture. we have been programed to accept the very concept of the exceptionalist nature of zionism. i can accept it, i can make that acception yes i can. but not in the face of terrible suffering of others for decades. this has gone on too long. who are you to second guess my motivation? to allude i choose jews to 'give up'? give up what one might ask? the will to live in an exclusive racist state? no one is asking jews to leave, certainly not me. you simply can't keep pushing others out. what kind of life is this checking the demographics w/every passing day? living in some purity state determined by exclusivity? if the suffering of the other was not in our face maybe we would not notice so much, but faced w/these inequities are we not supposed to notice? as one conditioned from birth as an american raised on the aspirations of martin, freedom, red white and blue? you cannot ever speak for me or question my motivations. are you so full of yourself you think the world revolves around hatred of you instead of mans common bond w/mankind and love of freedom and equality and aspirations to the best within us or are we supposed to all tow the line and believe palestinians are less than or undeserving?
who are you to slander the rest of us with your crude assumptions? your narrow mindedness shames you.
Distrust of Max’s historical record.
it wasn't a private party witty. anyone there could have filmed it. hasbara teams are notorious for controlling the narrative, they spend millions on it. go bitch at them. or link us up to some memri or 'fitna' for 'balance' if it suits you. this moaning doesn't suit you, you'ld be better off to lick your wounds in private. this is just your normal everyday pro israel lovefest. is there any particular person in the video you find particularly deformed or anything?
He picks people to ridicule.
don't confuse him w/borat
to remind us what we're up against?
Either Hamas reconciles with Egypt or else there will be more killings by Israel of Gazans
what is your source on this hamas vs egypt meme you've repeated several times? hamas not wanting egypt as its broker w/fatah is not the same as a hamas/ egypt conflict causing more massacres.. egypt, as a US client state just does what its told re israel anyway. the threat to hamas is not relinquishing power to the PA. in this regard egypt is irrelevant, any proxy will do.
you have more work to do to appeal to their compassion, than just to assault them.
rethink 'assault'. i don't think the film was made to appeal to them. like scott said:
to capture the quotations that reveal the essence of the phenomenon he reports on
spoken like a true representative of Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America.
lol!
as if max didn't have his own website, as if his films haven't been seen by millions. as if i woke up to i/p last month and never heard of him.
You want to discredit the filmmaker but you can’t actually dredge up any facts against him.
what he really wants is to discredit the film. he doesn't want the supporters of the massacre to look and sound like the people in the video. the dancing part must be a tad embarrassing, and that clueless young girl w/her comparison to the holocaust. the reality is that is what many supporters look and sound like (notice the adults standing next to her didn't correct her). it would have been even more embarrassing interviewing ziochristi fundies imho, like jesus camp. now the neocons..there are some 'rational' sounding supporters...not.
its a tough job finding 'normal' supporters of slaughter because it isn't normal.
i've seen lots of his videos. i do not think they are to prove anything, i think they are to embarrass. to show these people the way we see them. the video of the americans in tel aviv (or was that jerusalem) was priceless. just like little gop clones here at home.
one thing about the internet witty..we are just words. seeing the expressions and enthusiasm, the boastful qualities.. it is art. sometimes the purpose of art is to shock. it is not always about proof, sometimes it is to humiliate. lotts of things. we need no proof of who these people are, we know these statements like the back of our hand. why would we need proof? cast lead is proof in and of itself. the goldstone is proof. these films are part of history, they will be around for future generations to augment the narratives to our children explaining how this unfolded. they are part of our national dialogue just like old films of woodstock help explain the 60's. this is part of the zionist narrative. the proof of that narrative is the dead.
“People like me”, what like Jews?
no, like supporters/ enablers of the overwhelming disproportionate massacre. there were many types represented, like chuck schumer talking about how moral and nice the israelis were by text messaging. didn't that remind you of yourself just a little? did you find that segment unfair? we certainly read that view a gazillion times because it was one of the idf and hasbara agents talking pts. what was it like hearing it spoken? absurd maybe?
The question is whether it was edited representatively, or selectively to prove an ugly point to the converted
i don't think it was to prove anything necessarily. film makers document, that is what they do. given the type of event is was the chances are very high most of the people there are strong supporters of israel no matter what kind of actions in engages in. for people like myself who have never actually witnesses a pro war rally, i found it interesting. after all how many opportunities do i have to listen to people rationalizing a slaughter. it afforded us a chance to be a fly on the wall, that is what documentaries are about. it included the crazy rationals of the politicians, who acted like pro war politicians. i liked the line (paraphrasing) 'they are forcing us to kill their children to protect our children'. (!!!!) it's like a fellini movie, but real. like a teabaggers convention, you don't expect normality, you expect the absurd. these people are singing and dancing knowing people are getting blasted away across the earth. this is not a candlelight vigil. the justifications..its par for the course. do you find it embarrassing? i don't know that all the supporters of the slaughter are like this but ones that take the time to gather with eachother in a public place, these are the diehards.
the PA and egypt (the government not the people) are both bending to the will of the US/IS authority. hamas is not. the instability between fatah and hamas is likely not due to one factor but their is no doubt that instability has been nurtured by those who wish to determine the outcome of any power between them and guarantee it remains within their grasp and under their control (israel/US). specifically the security forces and economic considerations. the essence of the instability has nothing to do w/egypt and hamas even tho they are adversaries. hamas and fatah should mend their conflicts sans meddling from israel or the US. since egypt serves as a proxy for them they should reconcile in damascus or turkey or someplace with both their best interests at heart. they should unite strongly with eachother sans israel/us or egypt.
welcome home phil. excuse my speechlessness right now, but its good to have you back.
that is a false equivalence citizen. your analogies might pertain to israelis or zionists but not jews. judaism is a religion not a political construct like zionism.
tempted to think better of yonira???? what were you smoking potsherd, the thought would never occur to me.
Talking to you is like ...(bla bla bla enter crap accusing us of being nazis...etc). We Israelis don’t play that game.
apparently you are playing that game or you wouldn't be here.
You will pay a heavy price.
oh really. do tell, i am so quivering in my socks this loverly sunday morning.
could someone throw this riff raff out please? do we really need to have our conversations peppered w/threatening warnings ????
the Arabs and the Palestinians set out to destroy the nanscent state of Israel
sometimes the hasbara framing cracks me up. never mind the nanscent state of israel set out to destroy 100's of palestinian villages...
so longlive...any words on the 'tolerance museum' in jerusalem built on top of a muslim cemetary, or do you want verification of that too?
i was at this exact mosque alice. it was across the street kattycorner from the ruins of the old christian church right below the mountain that separates lebanon from israel. i visited one day w/an alternative tour guide group. the same day we visited another mosque surrounded by barbed wire adjacent a kibbutz that had previously been the home of our tour guide. he had been imprisoned for a while for reviving the mosque and worshipping there. it was that day i also learned the right of return also meant the right of palestinian israelis to be able to return to land their family owned and were denied access to, sometimes just 10 minutes away from where they were allowed to live. very strange indeeed. i learned alot that day from those guides. it was such a strange sight seeing these old mosque ruins surrounded by the barbed wire..as if praying was dangerous to israels health. so very sad. i climbed over the boulders in front of the old church and entered, but i did not climb over the metal gate and try to forge thru the barded wire to enter the mosque. thanks for your write up, i won't forget that day or these places as long as i live.
i agree completely re Israel Shamir, he's a plant as far as i am concerned. i don't trust anything w/his name on it, he is used to discredit the movement and i personally know of local people (suckers) damaged by contact w/him albeit from a distance.
either way it is irrelevant to this post, just a diversion which is the specialty of hasbara artists when the facts are too ugly, all the better to divert the subject to jewish suffering, a topic (victimhood) that is more comfortable than facing the current crisis.
Naeim Giladi was part of the zionist underground in baghdad.
"About 125,000 Jews left Iraq for Israel in the late 1940s and into 1952, most because they had been lied to and put into a panic by what I came to learn were Zionist bombs. "
stunning. this brought tears to my eyes, simply stunning.
i know, but what surprised me the most was allegations such as (paraphrasing) 'this guy is an extremist and no one will listen to him' or the general feeling the bds campaign would go no where in israeli society..as if it wasn't an international campaign. and the endless screeches implying this was a result of those primarily seeking to end the jewish state altogether as opposed to the more obvious reason of human and equal rights for palestinians. ..the hubris in assuming it's all about them and our hatred for them AS IF the recipients of the failure of their zionist enterprise mattered not at all.
not so sure about that. i read a few weeks ago there was an immediate backlash from british society when the suggestion was made centuries of precedent be set aside or changed to suit israeli politicians.
great article. this is driving them nuts in israel, the comment section of the original article is very telling. they are totally not getting the growth of the movement. i urge everyone to go put in your 2 cents worth.
reminds me of something else i read today @
coteret:
The shock and indignation expressed in the article indicates just how difficult it is for the Israeli elite to come to terms with this new reality........."In the meeting with the British attorney general, Israel will also protest the boycott phenomenon against it."
phenomenon!
;)
i know, i blwe(sic) it upthread myself.
you got your point across exactly. eventually they will have a rude awakening, the tipping pt has arrived.
only Palestinians in Jordan were given Jordanian citizenship.
i have a friend whose mother had jordaian citizenship (she died last year) but she self still identified as palestinian. my friend is american now but grew up in jordan but still self identifies as palestinian. her brother lives in beirut, he's a little bit famous and has lebanese citizenship but he still self identifies as palestinian. thats all i know.
they are in desperado mode. the howls and shrieks of alternate solutions. falling like dominoes to the zionist ultimo fantasy.
So in the sense of lines on a map, what we now think of as Palestinians were citizens of three different Arab countries.
not really and lines on maps don't have senses. palestine is palestine, one can carve any which way and keep taking chunks off. but its still palestine and palestinians are not the same as syrians, egyptians or jordanian.
The annexation of the West Bank to Jordan was the result of collusion and conspiracy between king Abdullah of Jordan and the Zionists.
yep
i'd rub norm's cooties all over me any day. sign me up.
VR, a more substantial response to your excellent points.
The problem is not that they support things like the carnage of Gaza, but that they do not have enough information to make better informed decisions.
that they support the carnage of gaza is of course the huge issue, it is the crux. from my view (and i could be wrong) jews in the diaspora are more likely to not embrace this violent form of zionism as those from within israel because they have not been a thoroughly indoctrinated. but either way jews and gentiles alike are completely programed to embrace the zionist model and fear marching out of lockstep due to decades of fear mongering and accusations of anti semitism. the fact of the matter, regardless of how 'tiny' this contingency inside israel is, for all of us information is needed to make better informed decisions. we become informed not only thru msm, for many people the gaza slaughter is what informed them DESPITE the msm because of basic common sense, logic and decency. aside from more and more massacres and blatant genocidal actions to shake humanity into the realization of the depravity of this situation and hoping their repulsion will kick in, information is the key and information or the lack is the focus being made in this post, it doesn't imply the coverage of this protest is going to make all zionist "come running to join the resistance with baited breath". it just means these people are there, protesting in solidarity and they deserve to be heard, they should be heard. we need to amplify every single action of dissent.
here's helena cobban's coverage of the protest.
Thankfully, Al Jazeera and AFP fully covered the story showing the world what actually happened last night–a thousand some passionate, articulate Israelis were bravely waking up the streets of Tel Aviv to the horrors of the blockade of Gaza, the occupation of Palestine, and the dire urgency for accountability in Israel.
in solidarity.
if phil is not a zionist, how does 'let my people grow' support zionism? isn't he talking about non/anti zionists?
progressive except for palestine
Rachel Maddow is PEP
by Philip Weiss on April 21, 2009 · 7 comments
rachel's on my permanent shit list. i had high hopes for her. not anymore.
I’m not just responding to the latest topic itself. I’m responding to Phil as a writer....I’m just questioning the legitimacy of his ethnic framing......
ok, i think i'm starting to get it. you come from a different place (your mind vs phil's) and you serve as a kind of purity meter in terms of his authenticity. so regardless of what phil's direction or theme of the post is (media/western lack of it/accountability) your view would be to critique phil's framing from a specifically non jewish viewpoint. i'm trying to wrap my head around the helpfulness or necessity of the delegitimization of phil's ethnic framing ..so critiquing him on his version jewishness..whatever. he's not claiming to be gandhi or anything.
whatever, i happen to think phil's doing a great job, and he's getting a lot of recognition for that from multiple sources, i recall walt also linked to him (excuse me for being lazy and not linking) recently. i always enjoy a new post of phil's and sometimes the first comment sets the theme. the first comment is you calling phil out for being ridiculous for claiming Arab media are trying to document the dramatic struggle that is taking place for the soul of Israeli society after 42 years of occupation.
i don't know, sounds normal to me. israel isn't the only country people personalize. citizens from all over the world personalize countries, if you don't believe me google 'the soul of france' or 'the soul of india' or the 'soul of palestine'. i guess my problem, to be completely forthcoming, is that as this movement grows (and it is growing) this blog becomes more and more vital and the first comment of the thread calling into question the integrity of the author or the blog (based on some stretch of 'implication') itself doesn't serve the movement, imho. but i suppose if you and phil have been discussing this and your MO here is to be on phil watch to bring him up to speed on the PC of PC's have at it. in this instance however i think you are wrong. i don't think he implied what you think he implied. i expect pro israel people to stab away at one of the most read popular online advocates of the palestinian peace movement tho, from the pro p team not so much.
Israelis NEED violence
like an addiction to sustain itself. its the perpetual lie that enables the expansion, without which israel would have to face its culpability.
sure VR, cliff's got a point
‘Saving Israel from itself’? So what corrupted Israel? Was there a point when it wasn’t corrupted? A time before it massacred entire villages of Palestinians? A time when Israeli soldiers weren’t carrying out mass-rapes of Palestinian girls?
the only problem i'm seeing here is the framing. while i absolutely do see a continuum in the intensity of racist attitudes among the Israeli Jewish public (the continuity is always present tho remains fluid wrt intensity) what i don't see is the implications made at the beginning of the thread. it seems instead of commenting on phil's post there's a discussion/debate going on around assumptions made about phil's post, ones i don't read into it. it becomes about phil , and cliff's interpretation of phil's meaning that supposedly alleges israel didn't corrupt itself or is not responsible for that corruption..i'm just not getting that. saving yourself from yourself only points the finger at yourself anyway so i find it a tad confusing. maybe i'm wrong, maybe phil is making some defining statement about what israels soul consists of..but that alludes me. i think it is likely phil would be agreeing about this 90% figure but then he's probably too busy to be keeping up w/the comment section to chime in.
color me clueless
Arab media are trying to document the dramatic struggle that is taking place for the soul of Israeli society after 42 years of occupation.
it seems very obvious to me these marchers are in a power struggle w/the other 90% for the soul of israeli society. i didn't read phil's comment as alleging this 10% represented the sole soul. i read it as stating arab media has been documenting israeli society in a way we don't see here, which would of course include the gaza slaughter, which also represents the soul of israel. there is a sruggle over the soul of israel and i appreciate reading about it, either from phil or the arab media.
great link, thanks. here's another link of hers that expands on destructive entitlement.
i'm not following you, are you suggesting the marchers inside gaza might become violent? i think it is reasonable to consider sans an international shield one might question the safety of letting 50,000 march given there is ample evidence all gazans are considered targets, to some people. suggesting the authoritarian nature of the occupation forces towards palestinians matches the authoritarian nature of hamas seems bizarre. these are, after all, their own people.
i pray for their strength, courage and safety. in solidarity.
absolutely! we are having a rendezvous with the Freedom Riders.
i hope they cover lots of ground. tomorrow i will be joining many to march across the golden gate. let there be solidarity action tomorrow all across the globe for a free palestine.
sometimes i wonder if we reside on the same planet. cast lead was planned months beofre , coordinated w/the election. nothing hamas could have done was going to prevent it, sans some jim jones scenario. hamas did not 'interceded to affect an Israeli election', the people of gaza got slaughtered. cast lead was a gift to the people of israel, just like the hanukkah song suggests.
incredible. thank you very much for the continuing coverage, it is so vital.
aborted marches do not create hatred. we are too far down the road to be blaming marches, aborted or otherwise on any hatred emanating from the ongoing brutal siege, slaughter and destruction of gaza , the decades long occupation of the WB and the continued illegal expansion of the zionist enterprise.
cool framing tho, nice try and all that. the march is already a success as the train has already left the station. NO coverage is impossible, gaza is massively twittered and blogged about daily. the msm serves dinosaurs and if they ignore it so be it. gaza is not a tree falling in the forest w/no one around to hear anymore. those days are long gone.
i'm glad you're there phil, the more action the better. make noise!
i'm not giving up hope just yet, i still think there is a chance for you to get into gaza.
if anyone can swing it it's ann wright and medea. say hi to soysauce for me if you see her.
thanks for excellent news/links
well i'd say your fiction is stranger than truth!
good advice, i suggest you take it. have a deeper look at yourself, lots of afterthoughts over the situation there could very well be some wrong w/you. logic impaired perhaps.
actually she has done OJ a great service by demonstrating for us an example of the confused youth who likely will grow up to realize that the heroes of their confused youth were the butchers of little children like their own.
i've met emily, we were on the same delegation to gaza in june. not every smart motivated socially conscious young woman is confused OJ. your misogynistic flag is flying.
people are able to distinguish the difference between the blog and hasbara bullshit in the comment section. pro israel posters all over the net consistently try to reinforce the idea egypt acts independently to block gaza. nobody really believes this.
my thoughts exactly! this is huge.
merry christmas everyone. this was a wonderful way to start my day.
coteret is a good source for follow ups on this story. they translate hebrew press also.
yonira! you're funny. it will take more than mentioning weapons to erase your femininity. embraced your true self.
tikkun olam alex..tikkun olam
bless you for making the journey.
perhaps they find his untowardness useful.
one thing that stuck me as completely strange and abnormal was that hiss did not loose his job over this after the earlier investigation. he remained chief pathologist. one would think a country like israel would have an assortment of qualified candidates for this position. why employ someone once it has been established his ethics are challenged regarding such a vital matter. it calls into question the system along w/the man. israel is a small country, hiss was not chief pathologist for one hospital, he served as chief pathologist for israel.
witty.
the way the swedish story differed from this one was the swedish story asserted palestinians were killed for their organs. there were numerous instances in the 90's of palestinians asserting their children had been arrested and then died in custody, then the bodies were returned missing organs.
the story resurfaced after new jersey arrests. at that time i did a little googling and found out about hiss and the previous investigations involving israeli soldiers. the father of one soldier, a doctor, ordered a private autopsy and the results confirmed organs were missing. it was then hiss was investigated and literally thousands of oragnas and bones were discovered in a warehouse. this was all reported in the press at the time with the explanation the organs were used for medical research but everyone knows organs are sought after and sold in israel. it stands to reason someone who is ethically challenged enough to steal body parts without permission might traffic in them also.
it made no sense to me dr hiss would take the effort to evade stealing palestinian body organs, as if he had more respect for them than the jewish and israeli bodies.
as far as procuring palestinians for the use of their organs? this has never been investigated or confirmed in israel as far as i know. but several years prior to the discovery the chief pathologist in israel was stealing body parts, many palestinian mothers claimed their sons were arrested either in health or wounded and returned to them in the conditioned mentioned. it was written about and documented at the time and no one listened. there was also the case of the man from scotland , another damning story as he allegedly hung himself after being detained at customed but when the body was returned some organs missing plus the bone in the neck that would have confirmed the alleged hanging was also removed.
Its the same method by which early biologists undertook any research
i don't believe it's the ethics of using organs for medical research that is in question. it is the ethics of stealing them, especially when their are laws against it.
they are not denying it. i just read the nyt times AP article, starts out
Israel has admitted that in the 1990s, its forensic pathologists harvested organs from dead bodies
also
In a response to the TV report, the Israeli military confirmed that the practice took place. ''This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer,'' the military said in a statement quoted by Channel 2.
chances are the idf (and then some) was aware of this when everyone was screaming blood libel this summer. i seriously doubt it stopped when they say it did. what's established here is they lie until they are caught red handed. also, it's called harvesting because the subjects are alive for vital organs.
i googled your name MichaelSantomauro. w/ the radio show interviews about holocaust denial and articles on storm front it occurs to me perhaps you are not an unbiased participant in this conversation and have invested lots of time and energy aimed towards disproving the experts.
i too read the study at the institute for zionist strategies bds, it doesn't mean i take it at face value. keep in mind propaganda is a valuable zionist strategy in itself.
if we make war w/iran the end of US supremacy might be the least of our worries. it would be the least of mine anyway. all hell would break loose in the middle east.
michael ledeen's wet dream.
One can only hope that we turn the region into a cauldron, and faster, please
We’ll ignore your illegal settlements and give you money too.
i was the person who wrote phil this morning, astounded. even prior to Ana'a response. the post was so offensive. i am not jewish and i spend a good portion of every single day blogging or being an activist for human rights, specifically for justice and freedom for palestinians. for a few years now.
what person, who , where, how under any circumstances could have ever possibly have been impacted more by palestinian retribution as a result of this intenable situation than Nurit? a mother who has lost her child , who can forgive, against all odds...and work not to bring redemptions to the people of her childs assassin but freedom...and you express 'false paradigm of parity' because she is jewish?
yes, there will be an abundance of mothers who have lost their children (either dead or imprisoned or both) from gaza marching, but medea is organizing the march to them and solidarity from a mother from the other side, voices from the other side, voices from the outside world, from america and africas and europe and yes, from israel..this is not false parity it is solidarity. a humanist does not distinguish between the life of a child. nurit doesn't. you will just have to accept there are jewish voices here screaming out for an end to this madness and we need every single voice we can get. as hideous as the reality is, the entire reason this has gone on so long is people don't hear or value palestinian mother's voices. that is why we have to speak in a voice people can hear, and keep speaking. i am not palestinian medea is not palestinian. neither is nurit or you i presume.
you don't get it cliff. this is phils blog, he is jewish. it is his voice and it is a jewsih voice and there is nothing wrong with that. we do not have to strip ourselves of our ethnicity to be advocates for anyone.
medea is not a coward. she is one of the bravest people i have ever met and it was an honor traveling to palestine and israel with her.. so what if it took her a long time to deal with this issue. so what if it took me a long time, i'm here now aren't i? do i have less responsibility than medea becasue i am not jewish? go write your own blog w/your myopic vision of how to elevate palestinian voices. becasue this is not just a palestinian issue anymore cliff and it is not just an israeli issue or just a jewish either it is a human issue being palyed out on the world stage and we need every voice. the last thing we need is 'progressives' spouting hurtful dismissive painful opinions when people are reaching out with all their heart to heal this situation just becasue they are jewish. that goes for medea and it goes for nurit and it goes for phil. everyone does what they can .
oh, your post and some of your criticism reek of antisemitism imho, and that is not a term i sling around like pizza dough.
who the f are you to determine who does and who does not have credibility around here?
Israeli land laws are so complicated, that most lawyers there admit that nobody can understand them. That is because they are a mismash of tribal ARab laws, Ottoman land laws, British laws, and of course Israel land laws, a small bit of which is based on ancient Biblical land laws.
no, the land laws are complicated because they are intended to obscure the theft of land taking place.
i suggest you read 'The Legal Transformation of Ethnic Geography: Israeli Law and the Palestinian Landholder
to borrow from another conversation:
it is an apartheid state, no amount of mumbo jumbo land laws is going to change that. nor will infiltrating 2 year old posts filling them up with current talking pts designed to normalize institutionalized racism.
check the nationality laws jgarbuz, it makes a difference. i won't be back to discuss this w/you further. thanks for articulating the marriage laws of the apartheid state.
i think everyone understands that jgarbuz. the rules discriminate against secular people who have no desire or need for religious intrusion in their lives. for them, marriage is not about god, it is about being married.
danaa, we are not at a loss for ideas or plans. in fact i keep hearing how it's going to be improved shortly.
i have probably written at least 100 emails regarding streamlining the comment moderation over the last 6 months. how many have you written?
farmers prophecies- “wave of sand”
link to google.com
of course, harry potter..why didn't i think of that?
i would urge concerned readers to email both adam and phil and let them know you'd appreciate their attention directed towards resolving the timeliness of comment moderation. we were going to be dealing with this soon a few months ago, a couple months ago, a month ago, a few weeks ago, a couple weeks ago, last week and then again this week.
alas, we get distracted with other urgent issues. i have confidence at the pace we're going things will get more streamlined sometime soon, this year, or next, or within the decade.
mayhem, i have no idea why the comments on that thread were turned off and wasn't even aware of it until now. a decision of that gravity only comes from up top, not moderators. write adam and phil, their emails are on the about page.
i can reveal from past experience threads have been turned off as a result of email complaints about a discussion that call attention to a particular thread. adam and phil are busy guys and often do not have time to follow the thread discussions, unless and until we get complaints. then they check them out and sometimes delete already published stuff. (iow, you may not find the offending comments by reviewing the thread). i'll add the lion's share of email complaints i have been privy to come from pro zionist advocates.
mcohen, hmm, what can i say. there's a lot code stuff going on about winds and storm or something. not sure if it's end of times talk or what. try not 'going there' or at least explain what you are referencing because we're not interested in comments with stuff inserted moderators can't understand.
is there a particular thread you are referencing?
your welcome. in the future if you leave a note below them (using the reply function to the unmoderated comment)it becomes easier to find the comment. there's no way to check for unmoderated comments by a poster's name.
yeah, comments come in faster than staff moderates. mornings staff work on getting drafts up, so moderation is slow. what thread are they on. i think all the threads have many unmoderated comments.
yonah, i just took a little trip to the trash pile on the hunch this might be related to some message close to your heart that didn't make it thru today.
a little tip for you. the next time you post a comment, for example (hypothetically of course!) 'I want to say a word in defense of Meir Kahane.....not the this Meir Kahane who does yada yada yada or that Meir Kahane who does yada yada yada etc but the Meir Kahane who said this and that,' i would just turn around, look for your thinking cap, put it on and figure how to say whatever it is you want to say, another way.
and the next time you get that urge to denigrate one of our valued contributors by calling him a demagogue (not once but several times in one comment) go over and post it on stand with us, because we probably won't be publishing it on mondoweiss.
see ya!
yonah, not sure what kind of letters you mean but wrt exclusions that 'do not help the discussion' there's this:
we are not interested in commenters whose only aim is to disrupt or sabotage the discussion.
to the satisfaction of Israel & the West. But what could the Israeli’s and Americans offer?
it's not about 'israel and the west' or ' Israeli’s and Americans offer'. quit gluing us together. it's israel driving this madness.
.A promise to pull back the settlements will not appeal to the mullahs.
that is not for you to decide. you're just taking it out of the equation because it's not what you want, and pretending it has something to do with iran.
Pick a number 500,000, 700,000 or 1,000,000 returnees in exchange for nuclear non-proliferation.
1 million to israel 'proper' and the 67 pullback plus palestine's capitol in jerusalem and some people might take you seriously. but either way iran has as much right as anyone to have a nuclear program.
miko, the intended hope on each party’s part of being some modest advantage going forward.
not israel. as usual israel is willing and eager to pressure the US into another war so it can get on with their land theft and ethnic cleansing. there's nothing modest about that. it's theatre all right, just not the kind you're envisioning.
that was an awesome comment donald.
hi anon, one uses html links here just linke most other sites in the internet. if you google html links there are many sites that explain them. here's one.
but for a really easy way to understand it, the way i learned actually was this site. go to any thread and click on 'comments' at the end and then scroll. there is a very simple instructional presented under "Allowed HTML Tags:".
i would post them but they transform when you write them. good luck and ask again if you still cannot figure this out. people will help you and thanks for asking. ciao.
yes, it covers issues from a progressive pt of view. but i don't think it is moderated 'progressively'. but i will tell you one thing, it isn't run in a zionist fashion. no one gets detained and held w/no charges for unknown periods of time. there are no gag orders iow if someone does asks where someone went they do not get banned for it. it's not as if we treat it like the zionist gov treats the freedom theatre. so we're a damn sight better than those policies we abhor. at least we do not pretend to be a democracy. i wonder how the 18 year old daughter of the mayor of bethlehem is doing today? what is she eating in prison held w/no charges. did she sleep well? is someone torturing her today, or questioning her? we're sure as heck more progressive than that. and look on the bright side. no endless comment section filled w/CRAP about what is or is not anti semitic..unlike other blogs we know. what brings you here tonight miko? long time no see.
what dead silence? the post is from april. a comment like yours flushes thru the robo function on the home page in moments(unless like a crap shoot it lands there for hrs due to mods taking a break). what wasn't answered for you david?
yes, i do think people just get disappeared.
not clear enough?
not really. the site does ban both sides of the spectrum. the site makes no pretenses of being anything but what it is. why don't you be more specific wrt what you perceive as unclear or unanswered.
as i mentioned earlier if you are one of those people that enjoy community moderation go to dkos. they have endless threads there about what is or isn't ok. here, people are just banned and nobody seems to notice their absence that much as far as i can tell. the hasbrats are a dime a dozen. ban one another replaces him the same day. the israel project sees to that. and then there are those 'special trolls'. the ones that come at you from the left and push the envelope w/anti semitic crap. of course we never know whether they are 'real' or here to set up the site. but they go either way.
so spill the beans david. what do you want to know?
evasive? you would have to ask phil or adam about their banning policy if you want more. you have been around here as long as i have potsherd so your guess is as good as mine. doesn't it seem to you like sometimes posters just disappear? i don't know that there is a blanket policy but i don't think there is. i don't know any other way to say it. i complain when i get sick of certain posters. i've had an email exchange with one other poster here who complained to phil about a poster who was eventually banned.
yes, i do think people just get disappeared. but that's not that unusual around the internet. i just got disappeared from the site i linked you too. well, not quite just disappeared. they first tried to ban me accusing me of being a sockpuppet. then i think i was put on some kind of temporary thing. i guess i got banned, my comment function doesn't work any more but i can still log in. i never really asked them if i was banned but effectively what's the difference of being able to log in if you can't comment. whatever, it's their business tho. it got excruciating posting there anyway, on and on conversations about the rules and having to endure the zionists moaning and groaning about how unfair it is and the continual anti arab discourse. of course they've driven off most of the regular pro posters so the comment section is kinda a zionist controlled zone.
so is that an answer for you, people can just be disappeared i guess. why not? like i said it is not a democracy. there have been people on the pro p side who have disappeared from here too.
Furthermore, it would be ludicrous to claim that his commenting style was even remotely comparable in offensiveness to the normal verbal conduct of numerous regulars at this site.
there are different kinds of offenses. maybe it was one of those posters that commented 10 times in 15 minutes and the mods got sick of reading all their stuff.
why are you so worried about it ck? if you don't like the comment policy here why not just go somewhere else? i don't understand your problem. aren't there an abundance of sites on the internet more valuable for a zionist voice than here?
or do you think this site is especially targeted like i do? personally i think it's the best i/p site on the internet.
someone can have every comment he posts be whisked away into the void, and never receive a response after repeated inquiries as to the reasons or justifications?
every comment? do you have any evidence this happens? what would be the point of keeping a poster around if they were going to trash all their comments? i'm sure they would just ban them.
maybe you'd have more fun at a site like this. notice the 300 plus comments debating what and wasn't anti semitic?
this site isn't a democracy and it isn't up to the commenters what passes moderation except on those times someone might complain thru the report function and the comment disappears. maybe phil and adam have better things to do than explain every banned comment. if someone has something important to say and it doesn't make it on the thread they have the option of rewording and trying again.
but if you want to be part of a community that self moderates try that link, i know from experience you would fit in there and it's a very important site, one where you could really make a difference.
Considering none of you know the comment I am talking about, you’re not really in a position to dispute it.
perhaps you did not noticed i used examples from the comment on this thread to demonstrate why your comment may not have made it thru moderation: "those are just a few examples of why i might have trashed the comment you just made. having not seen your other one i can only speculate you probably just sounded like..yourself."
comprendo?
So in other words, anyone that challenges your point of view should be silenced?
a 'short leash' doesn't mean silencing.
You wrote a miniature book here about “innocent until proven guilty.” Do you apply the same standards to the Israel Defense Forces? When an article from the ISM comes out making all sorts of outrageous claims about soldiers’ behavior, do you challenge the source there? Or do you immediately take it as fact and write harsh words of condemnation?
please provide me with an example of a crime no witnesses and i will give you my answer.
As far as what I hate said about the Palestinians, their history, and their recent act of savage butchery........my views do not in any way stem from racism and I’ll bet that I’m friends with more Arabs than you are
let's just say i'm not convinced. i do not care how much you claim this writer has made a career out of being a harsh critic of Israeli policy (if he were famous for it i might have heard of him), i am really not interested in the opinion of a person who assumes he knows who the killer(s) is when there is thus far no evidence.
What Palestinians cannot do, though, is take collective responsibility for such an abomination
please link to an article confirming israelis have taken collective responsibility for the oshenko family slaughter that occurred in 09. i'm a little confused by the reporters claim of "moral cowardice " especially in light of him reporting the palestinian reaction as "from all evidence, they do genuinely deplore it".
also, i noticed by him diverting the attention from israeli torture of palestinians. i wonder if he used the same racist arguments to condemn every jew for the brutal occupation the way he has used this crime to condemn every palestinian you wouldn't call it anti semitic? i doubt it.
'Until Jews acknowledge savage streak in their society, resolve to root it out, then there will be more abominations done in their name. '
oh let me take a stab at why it might not have made it thru moderation.
a Palestinian group initially took credit for the slaying and celebrations among Palestinians were in effect.
someone reported a palestinian group took credit for it but there was no confirmation of this alleged 'credit' in fact it was denied. it was also reported another palestinian group took credit but it isn't even confirmed this group exists. for example i could write in to the police and claim i represent a palestinian group that doesn't exist and claim responsibility for the crime, i could do that from california and them it could be reported a palestinian group claimed credit for the crime. and then you could write something stupid like 'If you need me to substantiate that FACT, then contact me ' when the only 'fact' you were substantiating is that someone claiming to be a palestinian group claimed credit for it. do you think a settler could figure out that complicated process? me too. that is why when it was first reported in the press some alleged group under the name of the hezzbollah martyr claimed responsibility the press even reported the idf questioned the truthieness of this report.
i reported and linked last night in the thread the murders were revealed the same day a unity rally was held in gaza, one that began the day before on friday the eleventh. there were many many photos of this rally but one caption claiming they were celebrating the murder sets hasbarists on a roll repeating this lie til kingdom kome. meanwhile the msm chose not to report the rally (oh gee wonder why) there have been no confirmation of this alleged murder celebration it is only repeated by hasbarists like yourself who relish in any news (real or not) confirming your lust for proof palestinian are not normal people.
iow, someone might have assessed your comment held untruths. maybe this comment should have been banned for that alone although that's not implicit in the rules.
As far as why people are “convinced” that Palestinians are behind the murder, it’s pretty obvious if you’ve been observing the last 100 years (or more) of activity in the region.
perhaps if you are an israeli you are not aware of the little tradition we have here in the US called 'innocent until proven guilty'. what is 'pretty obvious' to a racist might not be obvious to the rest of us. or more importantly someone reading your comment might have interpreted your comment as a result of a racist interpretation of reality.
those are just a few examples of why i might have trashed the comment you just made. having not seen your other one i can only speculate you probably just sounded like..yourself. this site isn't a democracy. some people might not be that interested in engaging w/certain kinds of discourse. if you want your comments to get thru try cleaning up your act. that would be my advice to you. also remember hasbarists are a penny a thousand (more common than a dime a dozen by a large %), there are many out there. maybe you need us more than we need you. remember that. every single rabid zionist hasbarists should be kept on a very short leash here as far as i am concerned. of course that just my opinion, i can't speak for the site. review the rules and see where your comment may have crossed the line.
yes, absolutely.