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they were sailing to raise awareness of the injustice being done and to make changes to address the injustice.. for the world to be reminded of this is ultimately a good thing...
might doesn't make right, and it looks really ugly here too... people can make laws, but it doesn't mean the laws are just.... sometimes they are just a form of maintaining a corrupt power.. this is something we are witnessing more regularly - powerful and narrow interests turning something into a law whereby it is illegal to do something that is ethical.....
kudos for those who continue to try to break this unjust form of power that israel maintains and the usa and some others condone... corruption has a way of rotting things from the inside and that is what we are seeing firsthand... it is unsustainable...
tree is saying you can't see sarcasm when it is staring you in the face...
taxi,
a surprise moment of honesty would be refreshing whatever way it came!
american - that is a pretty fascinating read that shows just how much the usa is interested in the peace process! it is all so very one sided in nature and catches what the usa congress is really all about...
more hypocrisy stamped ""made in the usa""...
congress is israel controlled... stupid laws only look stupid if you forget this basic fact...
hey, lets introduce some bill that says palestine can never exist.. if someone tries to say otherwise, we will charge them with a crime...
that is what the usa has come down to... god help us these freaks up here in canada don't do something as stupid.. i am sure they are working on it as we speak...
funny how they can't figure out a way to cut off funding for israel isn't it?? the usa is full of shite...............
i don't think so seafoid, but it would be good if it happened anyway..
there are only costs when palestine tries to break the logjam.. read the quote below.. if israel expands settlements, continues to be given 3 bil a year, wants a war with iran and etc. etc., there are never any consequences of it's ignoring anything the usa thinks about it!!! the state dept are a group of liars not able to piece together what there actions are saying to the world...
"Look, with regard to UNESCO, we were absolutely clear, not only with the Palestinians but with the international community before this happened, that if this went forward, there would be a cost."
lol!
that is about it, isn't it?
i like how finkelstein lays it out very clear and to the point....
i guess white phosphorous doesn't count then?
no one is free to cast stones here... if israel was concerned with children they wouldn't be putting so many in prison, but alas the world has to know of the suffering of gilad, but is well trained to ignore the suffering of palestinians.. you don't help change any of this either am_american..
ditto the above 3 posts.. thanks for keeping us informed on this and i hope for olympia food coop's success with this..
seafoid, what is sad for me is to see a right wing conservative gov't here in canada trying to outdo the usa in the zionist dept... this has never really happened here in canada before, but we now have harper to thank for the love of all things zionist given his christian fundamental viewpoints....
"There has rarely been a clearer example of domestic politics – in this case influence of the pro-Israel lobbies – undermining national interests."
same can be said for canada...
annie - not to be a downer, but i wonder what it will be this time... there is no way israel is going to let this get very far, but if they can turn it into some publicity stint to express something they think furthers there end, no doubt they will...
they just regurgitate the same bullshit... worked for war in iraq, and they will do the same nonsense now... war means big money for the banks... once again we are at war with the banks and the banks seem to always win..
kathleen, i agree with your comment "Israel seems to be on a suicide mission and clearly willing to take the US with it."
regarding hilarys comment in the usa propaganda rag (voa) - i would like to counter ' we're not quite sure who makes decision anymore inside of the usa' given the usa's vote at unesco.. (although we're quite sure the usa no longer master of its own direction )..
war for the banksters is like winning the lottery.. nothing better then war to solve all their temporary problems while creating the same and more for the rest of the planet...
us canucks living under the fuhrer harper are in a bad way.. it is pathetic how the conservatives have replicated all the core right wing values of the usa and managed to get back in power after having been decimated when mulroney was head of the same friggin party... read this article from yesterday to see the disturbing trend going on here in canada.. it is an eye opener for any canucks on this board or americans for that matter...
link to mondoweiss.net
the zombie in power here is a nutjob..
good question... i enjoyed seeing this video yesterday here at mondo.. mikeo posted it on another thread...
it makes sense israel would support serbia given those descriptions... israel never seems to have had any moral compass to help give it guidance... it is self serving in the worst of ways...
arm sales no doubt...
hi mrw - i left a link on the other post about the ugly reality of the tar sands project... i am not taking up his argument, or only in so far as i am saying their is nothing ethical about the tar sands project.. i think associating ethics with taking oil out of northern alberta and etc. is just a propaganda tool to try to sell it on more people.. i would prefer not to discuss ethics as i don't think it has anything to do with this. discussing the reality on the ground and what the tar sands project is actually doing seems more relevant..
here is a great article posted at mondoweiss a few days ago that covers some fine points extremely well..
link to mondoweiss.net
there is nothing ethical about the tar sands.. read the commentary in this article after you read the article for more insight..
marc - it really is quite sick isn't it? do you think someone in germany might have been able to see this as others do?
there is leverage and then there is leverage... this is the kind of dynamic i think goes on and i think it needs to be addressed...
thanks avi.. i appreciate your response here... in the end it doesn't matter as people have to get along.. i agree with jello's comments that ending poverty would go a long way to getting rid of the many problems that we face on the planet and more generally with regard to the i/p issue.. does it matter if a small percent control such a large percent? i think it does, but i don't have the answer as to how to resolve it..
the article that biafra wrote mentioned how sheldon adelson contributes a lot of money to the building of these settlements which are so contentious... it is interesting how on the one hand money seems to be a tool that one can exercise power with, but on the other how it ends up bringing about something for all the wrong reasons to the point i wonder what good all the money in the world is..
thanks for that link.. good read there..
the nyt has not a shred of integrity to it... the wapo and the wall st. journal are essentially the same.. people need to move the conversation elsewhere as it ain't happening in those institutions...
thanks phil and adam.. i wish your article in response would get more coverage then goldstones, but i am afraid it still doesn't work this way yet.. the mainstream media, nyt and wapo two typical examples - get to frame and have the conversation... perhaps you could make this an opinion piece in the nyt in response to goldstones...
either way, i really like what you have said and am glad you point out how goldstone is so at odds with his previous goldstone report.. i like this quote near the end of your post as i think it hits the nail on the head..
"Few Palestinians see a happy future for them with a Zionist neighbor, and out of solidarity for their suffering, people around the world have undertaken an honest inventory of Zionism’s actions. Many have come to the conclusion that Israel is de-legitimizing itself."
welcome to mainstream media where reality happens somewhere else, and vacuous fluff passes for ''''news'''...
'what was obama thinking" ?
funny how the lady on his right is basically smiling and happy!
i am a canuck and harper is a huge embarrassment to many of us... this guy may as well have stepped out of the 3rd Reich in terms of his attitude oh but he goes to church on sundays and is a big fan of hockey which means he wears the necessary clothes to fool a few... what an embarrassment for us is all i can say...
i don't know annie.. i am a canuck! it looks like some sort of american flag..
another way to look at it is this : if you don't align yourself with israel, you will pay a price.. that seems to be the thinking of the 13 that voted no...
awesome! that guy is awesome.. thanks mikeo for sharing this..
i suppose they figure giving the money to wall st. banks is a better idea...
it is hard to hold any respect for the usa at this point, not that i had much before this vote...
avi - i generally always respect and appreciate hearing your perspective on these threads.. why do you think this particular conspiratorial slogan continues to have life? might the fact that the rothchilds had much to do with the start of the bank of england, or the federal reserve? do you think that might be a small part of the reasoning behind your quoted slogan?
link to salon.com
maggie, thanks for this very informative article.. i hope you can continue to help educate us canucks that are stuck with 4 more years of this insidious rot..
link to oilsandstruth.org
there is nothing ethical about extracting oil out of tar sands.. the canadian oil industry with the buffoon harper are looking for any way they can to put the proper packaging on a pack of deception...
roha - what i am saying is organized religion is a bunch of bullshit... they do exactly opposite of what they are supposed to represent... doesn't matter whether it is christianity or judiasm or any other organized world religion...
i don't think the jewish state has anything to do with judiasm... it would be like saying the holy crusade had something to do with christianity.. both religions have not been able to teach those who profess to belong to the religion anything about morals or ethics as witnessed in how they treat those not a part of their special religious nut club...
>>Tal October 30, 2011 at 11:08 am
I don’t get why they start firing rockets in the first place
Why did OBL start a war with America?
They are fanatic fundamentalists. That’s why…<<
i admire your ability to refer to the usa as fanatic fundamentalists.. that is how i see it too... like meets like here, as it does in the i/p issue, although that is not how the hasbarists like to frame it, that is how many of us see it...
i suppose this explains why we aren't seeing a similar adventure into syria...
war could be considered an act of desperation.. it is interesting which nations opt for this approach so often in the 21st century - israel and the usa in particular.. these 2 seem 'hell bent' on using their military power in a righteous manner, while losing any faith other countries and people round the globe might have held for them..
avi - thanks for clarifying this for us.. people need this kind of education regularly and it is sorely missing in the discourse that is dominated by zionist thinking that is extremely one sided in its agenda, as opposed to being in any way 'informative'..
"So it would be illegal. "
that has never stopped the usa or israel before... they don't give a rats ass about international law..
very true donald, which makes me think that when folks are so busy telling us who the good and bad guys are, that tells us a lot about who they are... we are told regularly by the mainstream media here in the west how iran is the bad guy.. to me this just points right back to the usa and israel who keep on telling us this...
some folks don't have that short a memory... we went thru this iraq is the bad guy exercise not too long ago and we see where it went... these f'kers never give up in trying to start a war..
as the post says -You might want nukes too if you heard your neighbor beating war drums on a regular basis..
nice poster... i suppose the white area covers what the 2 party system is happy to continue... the usa needs another political party to represent the left side of this pic... they don't have it... they have the one on the right, but not on the left..
the fact a conversation is happening is a good thing... the metal fabrication estimator said this at the end of his letter which basically nailed his own letter to the wall as i read it - "When people speak with animosity and hostility, their words say a lot more about them than they do about their opponent, don't they?"
yes, they do and indeed his words or animosity and hostility towards arabs in general were very easy to read from the get go of his letter...
interesting how some folks are in such a lather over Susan Abulhawa lecture on Oct. 18th.. obviously more lectures like hers are needed...
treason is a good word to describe this..
sumud - i'd be more worried about anti-muslim/arab sentiment given how the mainstream media is always force feeding folks the same regurgitated crap about antisemitism.. when they have you looking over in one direction, look over in the other direction for what is going on...
avi - i concur...
i think the usa reached this point quite a while ago.. he is just stating it publicly..
"Romney stated he would abdicate American foreign policy towards Israel . . . to Israel"
this is the kind of shit that has passed for 'leadership' in the usa for quite a while now...
museum of tolerance...
that is a bad joke testimony to the level of intolerance demonstrated by these same zealots..
the usa is so full of shit, it is hard to take it seriously.. no thinking person would..
some people might be starting to say the same of the usa, especially with regard to its relationship with israel...
seafoid - i agree with your opening statement..
religious fundamentalists-the christian zionists - don't think...they take a word in the bible literally as the idea of anything metaphorical is beyond them..
one would like to forgive witty for living in the past and not staying in touch with reality.. at this point zionism is racism thru and thru.. the zionism witty fondly identifies with is something from a far away, long ago past...
when do more people find out about these propaganda outlets and what they are feeding folks?
"The Clarion Fund is a nonprofit organization linked to U.S. and Israeli right-wing groups that produces and distributes alarmist films aimed at alerting “Americans about the threat of Radical Islam.” "
i can't figure out if these folks are the rejects from hollywood, or the ones that got to do what they do in hollywood in the real world - brainwash people directly... talk about corrupt...
next stop - suspect terrorists, all of us...
ditto - thanks max.. this is one more spin off for those who love everything about israel... it seems israels number 1 export to the rest of the world is the arms industry.. i read yesterday an article written in spiegel on drones.. the leaders in this race are - usa, britian and israel...
link to spiegel.de
i like your take on all of this kathleen.. i share much of it..
interesting that you suggest the present dynamic in israel is worse then what was going on in germany in the 30's.. you might be right.. thanks for your comments...
israel sure is trying hard to be like nazi germany...
anyone notice any parallels between "occupy wall st" and taking the twin towers down back in 2001? seems to me the idea is to take down the financial system that is working for some, but not all..
one can be jewish and not be a part of the Judaic religion.. here i thought in order to be jewish one had to practice or be in some way associated with judiasm! okay, it is all passed down from the mother and being jewish has nothing to do with religion! this makes more sense actually as i see nothing religious in the actions of israel which is supposed to be both jewish and practicing the religion of judiasm.. i continue to think that zionism is the religion of these fanatics.. how else to explain their self justified hostilities to others not ''''jewish''''?
there is some material here for someone to have fun with, but for the palestinians it is no laughing matter... they are being abused regularly by those in and around israel who are supposed to be jewish, but may not belong to any religion.. i say this based on their actions...
kalithea quote "Zionism IS the new Judaism."
powerful concept... i think the folks that believe zionism to be valid viewpoint and necessary, do view zionism in a similar manner to a religion... i think they probably have replaced judiasm with zionism, as i can't believe that judiasm would condone ethnic cleansing or a slow form of ethnic cleansing as in any way religious.... however, zionism seems perfectly alright with this... the other option is that one has to choose between which god they are going to follow - one that represented zionism, or the one that represented judiasm... i don't think one can serve both at the same time..
hi annie - thanks for your response and the other folks response to my query... separating israel from those who are jewish, to those who practice judiasm is an interesting question for me... i agree i am complicating things, but so is modern day israel and many jewish folks with their work at making an association of all of this being one and the same.. they are not the same.. the efforts on the part of israel to suggest it represents the jewish people motivates me to ask the question on what part of the role judiasm plays in this.. the actions going on in israel are very conflicted with any type of religion no matter what religion it professes to be as i see it, but perhaps someone who practices judiasm can explain to me how these actions represent judiasm.. i would say the same thing for the crusades which supposedly represented christianity.. i think of the parallel that you make to colonialism is a good one to make... i'll stop here for now..
why is it the zionista's never comment on threads like these? are they so numb to the conflict and war they nurture by ignoring these activities in not addressing them directly in israel, or to their friends and family in israel?
what does this say about judaism? is israel the world rep for jewishness? have they been allowed to abscond much of what jewishness is supposed to represent and are giving us examples like this story to show how superior the religion is? i don't get it...
it is interesting how israel is capable of negotiating with hamas when necessary to get back gilad, but unable to act in good faith on any other level... annie is right - israel is morally impaired and they let everyone know this in their daily actions which speak in direct opposition to all the talk of wanting peace... talk is cheap.. israels actions are being read loud and clear by more and more people, in spite of the hasbara of people like yourself and the wittys of the board and beyond..
lysias - the usa has been a plutocracy for a good long time now...
ellen quote "I.e. what other country in the world demands that you have to have debt to get credit?"
this is the basis of the world banking system as i understand it... once a person is indebted, then they're essentially a slave to this same system...
as for the comments of yours and kathleens up above, i think the unusually high number of jewish people in the upper echelons of the banking system does matter and reflects the history of banking for the past few hundred years... who gets to the top of this same corrupt system is not based on democracy, but on family connections... the rothchilds started the bank of england and they were responsible for the federal reserve as well...
for a better understanding of the federal reserve, consider reading 'creature from jekyll island' which gives a much better education on it then i can..
phil, thanks for the post.. i liked what you had to say.. here are a few lines that stuck out :"I think the Jewish community has to be honest about where our community sits, and then try and define community differently, not ethnocentrically."
"We're a wounded community. There is a reason that so many of the Jewish progressive calls at the JFREJ page are vague: we all have neocons in our families and we understand them at some level, for we know that they operate out of fear for the Jews in Israel."
"Jews must find a way to talk about our wealth and privilege. "
that last one would lead right back to looking at the present day banking system, wouldn't it? kathleens 1050am post highlights the same thing..
many folks are making the same conclusion - corporate welfare as in ->bank bailouts, never had it so good all on the backs of the small people.. i doubt any benefits will flow into the small people in libya, but i would like to be wrong... the fat cats will find a way to keep it all for themselves, all under the guise of bringing freedom and democracy to libya...
probably not...
but perhaps the oil will start to run in the right direction according to the powers that be.. as for democracy and all that, it is really a mute point stacked up next to a continuing exploitation of the resources of libya... same thing is going on here in the west, except the facade is a bit more sophisticated...
that is very relevant to the conversation, lol.. .stick to humour.. it is what you're good at... getting serious makes you look stupid..
thanks nima!
i left 2 articles that the poster 'american' had left on this thread
link to mondoweiss.net
from the national geographic and theworld bank.. it is really what got them going at me in the first place.. i asked them to point to something that said something different.. those links that i asked for feedback on were what they finally volunteered saying all the math was quite correct and blah, blah, blah... the fact is i suppose those people who are so hardened in their position they can't consider anything else are really lost causes.. i wasn't able to provide the link you've offered here in my response, but will consider doing so now that you've shared this.. i know... it is mostly a lost cause trying to get zionists to see the reality on the ground, but i believe getting valid information out in the public arena is necessary and this would include spreading it to those who constantly fly in the face of reality..
thanks again!
james
hey guys... this is the response i got when i presented it to some zionist folks on another thread.... they wanted a response to these articles and i was unable to give them one that could go beyond name calling which i didn't bother to engage in.. the fact is my knowledge on these matters isn't strong enough to offer a strong rebuttal.. i see that slagging me for sharing this is more relevant then actually responding to my request... what does that say to me about you 2?
perhaps someone would like to comment on the data in these links that contradict the thinking behind this article...
link to jpost.com
link to mfa.gov.il
i agree maggie and though i didn't say it, i am glad you did... it epitomizes the eye for an eye mentality that creates a lot of blindness and not much of anything else...
regarding the last couple of paragraphs of your quote - i am sure that is how things worked in nazi germany too... it is so sad that israel can't see how it is recreating a dynamic that they fled from... what is it about those who have been bullied turning into bullies? this seems to be the case here and what is so sad is that israel seems incapable of acknowledging this and changing it's ways...
i disagree with ron prosor... the fact is a prisoner release is taking place right now.. what better time then now to highlight the fact israel is detaining 35 kids between 12 and 15 years of age, along with the other 442 at 16 or 17 years of age?
israel could step back and look at how it's reputation as open air prison host, not to mention the fact of these 477 underage kids doesn't dovetail all that well their own idea of 'only democracy in the middle east'...
hey american, if you can respond to a post i left on the sanitation thread, i'd appreciate it.. thanks -
well said libra.. thanks..
let me know what you thin about these links.
link to jpost.com
link to mfa.gov.il
response to this over at elders of ziyon
:on average an Israeli uses less water than a Palestinian and that doesn't include the water they steal.
Do the math of it for yourself if your grey cells are up to the task and then come back.
That water story has been debunked so often and so thoroughly that you thereby prove yourself to be an out of touch alien.
taxi - i hear what you are saying.. kansas had a song called 'dust in the wind'.. here are the lyrics that seem appropriate here..
"I close my eyes only for a moment, and the moment's gone
All my dreams, pass before my eyes, a curiosity
Dust in the wind, all they are is dust in the wind.
Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea
All we do, crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see
Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind
[Now] Don't hang on, nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky
It slips away, and all your money won't another minute buy.
Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind
Dust in the wind, everything is dust in the wind."
nothing lasts forever and you are right about the bricks and mortar... people can't make castles of sand based on hostility and hatred towards others....
whether it is 10 years, 100 years or 1000 years people need to figure out how to live together on the planet and right now it doesn't look like that is happening, does it?
i think you are wrong on this... might makes right, even if it is wrong... there was never any real desire for peace in the world of zionism - only land grab and ethnic cleansing and that is what we continue to see with the usa's approval...
link to en.wikipedia.org
co-founder of adbusters -
Kalle Lasn (born March 24, 1942) is a Canadian author, magazine editor and activist. Near the end of World War II his family fled Estonia and Lasn spent his childhood in a German refugee camp. He was then resettled in Australia. In the 1960s, he founded a market research company in Tokyo, and in 1970, moved to Vancouver, Canada. For twenty years, he produced documentaries for PBS and Canada’s National Film Board. He is the founder of Adbusters magazine and author of the books Culture Jam and Design Anarchy and is the co-founder of the Adbusters Media Foundation, which owns the magazine. Lasn currently lives in Vancouver, British Columbia."
link to en.wikipedia.org
link to en.wikipedia.org
adbusters has hit a little too close to home for the zionista crowd... if someone accused mondoweiss of having a history of '''''anti-jewish'''' writing, would anyone be surprised??? the reality is adbusters has played a role similar to mondoweiss is trying to get people to wake up... for all i know adbusters is run by people of jewish decent too...
you can make crap like this up but someone in the mainstream media will definitely beat you to it..
we have been told endlessly that right wing israelis are terrorists and you can't negotiate with terrorists, lol........... i thought obama outlawed negotiating with terrorists?
pabelmont - that would have required an act of real courage............
lol... witty, think of all the palestinians being kicked out of your faraway zionist homeland when you cry and whine... there's a small chance you'll learn how to empathize... it'll really conflict with your zionist heritage...
not in the usa!!! it's guilty until proven innocent!!! think gitmo the place they need to relocate the white house and all it's minions to..
the usa is an amazing country... they starved the iraqi's for a long time before they got around to the final act of making war on them... the usa has an ugly pattern going on, and it isn't any different here...
dbg - it is a nice contrast to the regular brainwashing that goes on in much of the western media where those evil muslims or arabs are behind everything and the reason israel and usa are so preoccupied with their freakin security needs....
pendulum swung the other way friend...
eee quote :
"You are really splitting hairs. The government of Egypt by allowing a hostile environment against Jews for decades was de facto practicing a un-official policy of ethnic cleansing."
tell us, if correct, how it differs from what israel has been doing for the past however many years? don't be selective in your righteousness eee...
thanks phil... great story with some fascinating perspective...
one just had to try reading a few witty posts to conclude the same...
...."many in the Jewish community view Jewish Voice for Peace, the Oakland-based organization, as fundamentally hostile to Israel."
do these same folks ever view anything that israel does as hostile to israel's own best long term interests? do they view the rabbi who is still on the list as favourable to israel?
it seems to me that some of these folks have a very hostile attitude towards peace, especially the rabbi who is still on the list... this really says something about this umbrella organization and anyone who belongs to it...