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Speaking of baring teeth, the Papal Nuncio in Turkey was killed today. Who would have an interest in doing it? There's an awfully mad dog out there.
On the subject of spin, I'm sure everyone here remembers the Israeli PR campaign that was formulated by Gillerman months in advance of the planned assault on Gaza. This is just a small refresher; from the Guardian, a week or so into the assault and it gives an insight on what PR stunt Israel is now pulling, especially with the silence of papers like the NYT:
Chris McGreal reports on Jan 4, 2009 from Jerusalem on Israel's hidden strategy to persuade the world of the justice of its cause in its battle with a bitter ideological foe
Months ago, as Israel prepared to unleash its latest wave of desolation against Gaza, it recognised that blasting Hamas and "the infrastructure of terror", which includes police stations, homes and mosques, was a straightforward task.
Israel also understood that a parallel operation would be required to persuade the rest of the world of the justice of its cause, even as the bodies of Palestinian women and children filled the mortuaries, and to ensure that its war was seen not in terms of occupation but of the west's struggle against terror and confrontation with Iran.
… A new information directorate was established to influence the media, with some success. And when the attack began just over a week ago, a tide of diplomats, lobby groups, bloggers and other supporters of Israel were unleashed to hammer home a handful of carefully crafted core messages intended to ensure that Israel was seen as the victim, even as its bombardment killed more than 430 Palestinians over the past week, at least a third of them civilians or policemen.
… Dan Gillerman, Israel's ambassador to the UN until a few months ago, was brought in by the Foreign Ministry to help lead the diplomatic and PR campaign. He said that the diplomatic and political groundwork has been under way for months.
"This was something that was planned long ahead," he said. "I was recruited by the foreign minister to coordinate Israel's efforts and I have never seen all parts of a very complex machinery - whether it is the Foreign Ministry, the Defence Ministry, the prime minister's office, the police or the army - work in such co-ordination, being effective in sending out the message."
In briefings in Jerusalem and London, Brussels and New York, the same core messages were repeated: that Israel had no choice but to attack in response to the barrage of Hamas rockets; that the coming attack would be on "the infrastructure of terror" in Gaza and the targets principally Hamas fighters; that civilians would die, but it was because Hamas hides its fighters and weapons factories among ordinary people.
link to guardian.co.uk
What's the big deal, Julian? So what if the guy has some religious quirk or fantasy he wants to live out but these will not take away from the viciousness of the Israeli forces, religion or no religion. Try another angle to justify Israel's crime.
So far I have heard at least 15 people interviewed on what happened and all 15 had the same version of the story that was almost identical to Peck's. The 4 Lebanese were asked by the Israelis to sign papers that they would never set foot in Israel again and all 4 refused categorically to sign it. One of them yelled all sorts of profanities at them and they didn't react to him; it was Mohammed Shukur that lost his wife and 4 children to an Israeli bomb in 2006. The Syrian captive mentioned yesterday that she saw Israelis throwing a body or bodies overboard but I haven't heard it from anyone else.
Bravo, Pamela, I have been admiring your work since Sept 2006 with and for the Palestinians; you're truly an inspiration.
Must be Israel's actions making the animal come out in everybody.
I agree with you Homer, DecentJew isn't saying something the others aren't at least thinking and I have no problem with what he writes other than for the extreme methods he wants used against not so decent Jews.
His message today is:
"They have the whole world fixated on the VIDEOS they keep passing around. It’s as though a film clip of a murderous home invasion were being shown and evidence of the victims trying to resist being used to indict them! I’ve never seen anything so repulsive and perverse in my life."
He is 100% correct in his observation as he is also in saying he had never seen anything so repulsive and perverse although on second thought what was done to Hiroshima and Nagasaki would qualify as the worst.
Then he went and spoiled it all by adding a last sentence about the Kool-Aid business. Nothing phony about this guy.
Chaos, maybe I'm being too cynical but what did the world do during the white phosphorus showers and what has the world been doing since the over 4 year strangulating siege of Gaza? The Arabs don't give a shit, the rest of the world doesn't either and why should it when they see the zero reaction on the part of the Arabs? The Palestinians have been waiting 60 years for the world to stop tolerating Israel's crimes.
The only time the US will clobber Israel over the head and make it behave will be if and when Hamas and Hizbullah are eliminated from the map since these 2 groups are spooking the Americans more than they are spooking the Israelis. Israel knows it all too well that Hamas can't defeat it and unless it goes anywhere near Lebanon or Iran, Hizbullah will not react. The US tried doing a number on both in 2006 using its gorilla Israel and failed in both places. Hamas and Hizbullah aren't going anywhere no matter how much the US wishes otherwise because they exist out of public popularity. The whole region (Saudi Arabia, some of the Arab gulf states, Jordan, Egypt) are bubbling with unrest and Hamas and Hizbullah are viewed as a catalyst to opposition movements in them and since these countries are US allies and subject to being overthrown, it keeps the US nervous. Becasuse of the oil, of course.
PG, which Race for Iran article, there are lots of them on the web and one of them is about reading bnath towels on Mondoweiss.
Chaos, who would stop Israel from doing it? Certainly not the Arabs; they still haven't reacted to the FGM flotilla massacre and Jordan and Syria would both prefer secure borders with Israel but Egypt would be left out in the cold having to share a border with Gaza.
No, Israelis are not starting to discover religion and none of the neighbouring states are happy at the prospect of an independent Palestinian state or of having a shared border with it, even those that are far away; in fact, they are relatively happy with the occupation that keeps putting off this spooky eventuality and one has to simply think of the joint Israeli-Egyptian siege of Gaza or the Arab funded PA police that was trained to safeguard Israel's borders from Palestinian infiltrators. As to the Israelis, you have to account for the WB being the source from where 50% of Israel's domestic water originates and Israel can't walk away from that. Absorbing the WB would put an end to any chance of RoR for Palestinians and to Israel's worst nightmare.
It was interestingly implied in the article that NATO had become a tool to give legitimacy to some of America's dubious ventures, like Iraq 1 and 2 and Afghanistan.
Israel practically acts as a member of NATO with its joint military exercises and constant presence. Last September there was an incident with the NATO Defense College that had invited Lebanese academic and expert on Hizbullah, Amal Saad-Ghorayeb to speak to military officers and diplomats enrolled in the NATO Regional Cooperation Course aimed at reaching out to the Arab world. The course included participants from the Mediterranean Dialogue, of which Israel is a member. When she found out about the Israelis and the apparent NATO trick to draw her into meeting with Israelis and breaking her country's laws, she became angry and raised a big stink. LA Times covered the incident at the time and Helena Cobban on her blog covered extensively the back and forth of this story.
NATO related from Xinhua:
Greece suspended a scheduled visit by Israel's air force commander to Athens on Monday, following a deadly Israeli military operation against a flotilla transporting humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.
Furthermore, Greece canceled an ongoing joint air exercise with Israel, code-named "Minoas 2010," the Greek Ministry of Defense announced on Monday. The exercise started on May 25 and was due to run through June 3.
Earlier, Greek Alternate Foreign Minister Dimitris Droutsas had summoned Israeli Ambassador to Greece Ali Yahia to formally complain and ask to be informed on the situation of the 34 Greek nationals who participate in the humanitarian mission. The mission was organized by European and American activists with a Turkish humanitarian organization.
Non-NATO related, Nicaragua broke off diplomatic ties with Israel yesterday and joins Venezuela and Bolivia that had done likewise in 2009 because of the Gaza war.
4 Syrians just arrived home with stories of Israeli barbarism and mistreatment at Ashdod. The Bishop of Jerusalem, Capoce, said he was thrown to the ground and beaten. All 4 said the Israelis landed on the ship with guns firing and it was evident that they were on a mission to kill people. All 4 said they would gladly get on another FGM voyage. The lady among them said something about bodies being thrown overboard by the Israelis.
3 Lebanese were to be released at Naqoura today but Israel changed its mind. Hizbullah is suddenly interested in their status and maybe this is why Israel did it. If those Lebanese that were abducted 120 miles out to sea are not released soon things may start getting ugly.
I have a feeling that at next Monday's NATO meeting, Erdogan will be telling the group that he doesn't want to see Israel in any more joint excercises with NATO members because he doesn't want to associate with baby killers and pirates.
That was funny, GC.
Hey Droog, a bit of fresh news for Turkey haters to really make them hate: Turkey's energy minister announced that he has put the enrgy contract with Israel under immediate review and will be announcing in 3 or 4 days if the deal is still alive or considered dead. Those that have never heard of it, it's about the underwater 5-pipeline network linking Ceyhan Turkey with Ashdod that was signed between Israel, Turkey and BP in July 2006 link to globalresearch.ca for the transport from Turkey to Israel of oil, natural gas, fibre optics and most importantly, fresh water from the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers. Those in Israel that are celebrating having pissed off the Turks will be crying if the Turkish minister decides to kill the deal.
"... As more details come out about this operation, we shall see that it is yet another cock-up by the IDF, which has an altogether higher reputation than it deserves."
It has been proven every time the IDF entered Lebanon's soil, that it was solidly trounced by a handful of Hizbullah fighters because the IDF has gotten used to fighting off women and stone-throwing kids, not real men and especially not ones with grounhd to ground missiles that took out the Merkavas or the ground to sea that took care of the Hanit. This yet another failure caused by a few civilians that opposed the IDF demonstrates to what level the IDF has been overrated.
The IDF coming down those ropes probably expected the usual civilian fare they have grown accustomed to and probably felt safe as there would be no stones on the ships' decks. Other than the superior hardware they have in the air thanks to the US, the IDF is a mediocre fighting force. They keep trying to figure out how Hizbullah does it and the answer is right under their noses.
You got me figured wrong, Dan, I love the US and its people and half my family is American and proud of it but this does not prevent me from criticizing America when I think I should; I criticize Arab countries even more. I also happen to like Jews because I feel they are the closest people to being like Arabs in both their good and evil sides. I don't care what Chomsky thinks and will continue believing that the US is "using" Israel because it's its bouncer in the area. If you followed events in the area, you'd have seen that the 2006 war on Lebanon was ordered up by the US and when Olmert wanted out after 5 or 6 days, he was told by the US and Arab countries to continue the war to finish off Hizbullah. It was the US that ordered up the siege on Gaza after it failed to overthrow Hamas with Dahlan and it was the US that had the Europeans and Arabs cut off the funding to Gaza, not Israel and it was US pressure that had the Egyptians close off Rafah during the war on the Gaza and it's the US that's now building the shamefull underground wall.
America is big and powerful and does nothing that it doesn't want to do. If it is taking positions favourable to Israel, it's because it wants to and not because of the vote or the bribing lobby. You saw how America reacted when Israel started criticizing its President. You'll see how America's attitude towards Israelk will change in a few years when the oil runs out or America's dependence on it stops. I assure you I'm not here to steer anything away from Israel that I consider evil.
You are seeing only what you want to see.
I'm curious too, Dan, please explain.
"... The Obama administration refused to endorse a statement that singled out Israel, and proposed a broader condemnation of the violence that would include the assault of the Israeli commandos as they landed on the deck of the ship."
I guess you weren't surprised either, TGIA. By the above statement, we can conclude that the US agreed with what Israel did, that it had a full right to board the ships in international waters, and that the commandos reacted in self-defense.
America should worry more for its soldiers' safety from these positions the US is assuming in the UNSC than from what Petraeus was talking about.
This also confirms that Israel does absolutely nothing that has not been first discussed and agreed to by the US. America since 2006 is obsessed with wiping out Hamas that the majority of Palestinians voted for and likewise for Hizbullah that is supported by 80% of the Lebanese.
I find GC's language hot'n'spicy and I don't go along with his his call to arms, but I wouldn't go so far as asking to have him banned because he does represent an opinion that is shared by many. I can say that some mosques like those with the "special" Friday sermons were breeding grounds for fundamentalism thinking, especially among the very poor and in the US eyes were closed on a few madrassas that served the same purpose simply because they were sponsored by Saudis. As to his opinion about the spoonfeeding that is going on, there is still a call by Jews everywhere for the "next year in Jerusalem" and of the 5 or 6 Arab armies that wanted to wipe out the Jews, the birthright freebie program and so on. So GC is not totally wrong about what is going on but he is wrong about punching the rabbis in the face.
GC, another disagreement coming up: You believe that it was the violence of the Palestinians like the hijackings and the suicide bombs that put them on the map. I believe the exact opposite happened in that it demonized them in eyes of most of the world and even worse, it gave an alibi to Israel's continued oppression, occupation and additional theft. When things were getting too quiet with the Palestinians, Israel went out of its way to provoke something or other just to get the Palestinians riled up so it could continue with its occupation. With Uncle Sam on its side, Israel doesn't give a damn about world opinion. Your way of getting the job done would only prolong the agony of the occupation.
Debonnaire, it wasn't that long ago that the same thing was being said of mosques and of Muslim fundamentalism and people in America began making life miserable for any Muslim. Saying these things about synagogues is not any better.
GodsChosen, I hate what Israel is doing as much as anyone else but the violence you're preaching is way too much. This would harm the Palestinian cause more than it would harm Israel. Israel is destroying itself and needs no help. I'm thinking that maybe you are a settler in disguise and saying these words to show the pro-Palestinian side as violent people and disparage the whole Mondo clan. Synagogues are as petri dishes? You are way over the top with that and terrorism may be your friend but it isn't mine.
MRW, Israel may have been lulled by the quasi-total US blackout of the GFM flotilla progress as it took shape and set sail and thought that this too would be blackened out.
Now Israel is making a big thing about the FGM ships having ties with al-Qayda and that they were transporting arms to Hamas. I think they are starting to believe the stories they make up.
America should get off the pot and release Pollard. Israel got away and continues getting away with anything and everything in the US but America hold on to Pollard for some show or other; it may as well release him and stop the charade.
Yonira, nobody said Entebbe never happened. Read what is written about Israeli duplicity in this and other operations aimed at sabotaging its allies. It's bad enough that Israel spies on America to steal its military and industrial secrets but to go as far as killing its people or doing things that get them killed as Petraeus said while it is cashing its cheques is downright obscene.
Add to Israel's growing list of duplicitous acts, the Entebbe myth that was discussed elsewhere here by Rachel and Droog. British diplomat D.H. Colvin wrote in his report on June 30th, 3 days after the highjacking and before the Israel bogus rescue, "The operation was designed to torpedo the PLO's standing in France and to prevent what they see as a growing rapprochement between the PLO and the Americans " and that the hijack was the work of the PFLP, with help from the Israeli Secret Service, the Shin Beit.
Long before that, there was the Lavon Affair in which Israel had planted bombs in American and British facilities, including a USIA library and a British-owned movie theater to pin the blame on the Muslim Brotherhood and show the Americans that the Egyptians were unreliable allies.
In light of all these, it makes one wanting to have another look into 911 not such a preposterous idea; is there anything about Israel that isn't phony?
Wow, how much work was put into this.
Rachel, I knew you had a heart of gold. You talk tough but you're really a softie.
They are as you say, rabid racists and militarist goons.
"... Do you support the IDF attacking those who wished to give support to Hamas? "
Wondering Jew, you appear more embarrassed by Israel for having shown its dirty underwear than upset at what it actually did. It's doubtful any of the 600 activists had the support of Hamas on their mind when they got on this voyage.
Bravo for Malaysa, Frances, but there is nothing to be sad about for not recognizing Israel. Erdogan in the things he says and does reminds me a lot of Mahathir.
It's a shame we don't hear as much today from Diana Butto. She and another young brilliant lawyer, Michael Tarazi a few years back were just about the only ones that spoke on behalf of Palestinians in an English that was coherent and flawless and showed an image of Palestinians very different from the negative one painted for obvious reasons by Israel, or by the bumbling stuttering Erekat or the whining Ashraoui. Butto and Tarazzi could take on any Israeli a debate on Palestinian rights and listening to them was pure pleasure.
You're right, Ahmed, nothing will happen. Israel has done much worse than killing these 20 activists trying to bring help to Gazans. Think back to Qana 1 and Qana 2, Marwaheen, Beit Hanoun, Gaza Beach, Jabaliya and more recently the white phosphorus over Gaza and nothing happened to Israel. This is because whatever Israel does, it does it with the full knowledge and agreement of the US if not at the request of the US. Israel and the US have been playing good cop-bad cop for decades but when it comes to the Palestinians, they are both bad cops. The UNSC is to meet for what happened today at Lebanon's and Turkey's request since both are current members but with the automatic US veto, nothing serious will happen.
How many thousands of Lebanese are dead because Israel has used it as a killing ground?
Between 25,000 and 30,000, Potsherd and just as awful was that Lebanon's south was used as the testing grounds for all new American and Israel weapons during the 20 years of Israeli occupation. Then they wonder why the Shia of Lebanon hate the Israelis so much.
Shingo, there is a child on board, an 18-month old baby. The terrorists must have missed it. This was reported by the legal adviser of the FGM earlier today. As you implied, killing children is an Israeli specialty. Let's not forget that it was the jerk Ayalon that had this silly thing with the high/low chairs with the Turkish ambassador not long ago.
Turkish press reporting that there are 15 Turks that died.
The Emir of Qatar just opened the economics meeting that is being attended by the asshole minister and he declared the attack on the ships criminal.
Greece has announced the cancellation of joint military excerices with Israel.
I think Israel screwed up this time and it will take much more than the US to save its ass.
Finally, CNN has decided to interrupt its programing and it was to present live Dany Ayalon's speech on how the ships were transptorting arms. Of course, of course.
Audrey Bomse FGM's legal adviser said there was an 18 month old baby on board so it was definitely not transporting arms.
Ahmed, Netanyahu is already in Toronto to kick off the annual fund drive. There was a demonstration against his presence in Canada and this is part of his speech yesterday:
“... You march against those who hate freedom and celebrate death. And you march for those who cherish freedom and celebrate life. You march against those who oppose peace … You march against terrorists who target civilians … You march against tyrannies that oppress women, gays, minorities. Who murder their own people. We saw that picture of that young girl lying on the sidewalk, choking on her own blood. You march against those tyrannies.”
and of course, no speech is complete without dragging out the holocaust:
“... First and foremost is the challenge of preventing Iran from developing nuclear weapons,” he said. “We have to ensure that this regime, which is the world’s leading sponsor of terrorism, a regime that shamelessly denies the Holocaust and a regime that talks about wiping Israel off the face of the Earth … does not acquire these weapons of mass destruction.”
Read more: link to news.nationalpost.com
Ahmed, you have to puit it in the context that the leaders of the Sunni Arab world teams up with Israel ( cutting off funds to Gaza and the closure of the Rafah crossing during Israel's turkey-shoot)when it comes to dealing with the heretical Shia. The asshole minister is kissing up to those Sunni leaders by disparaging the Shia.
The minister is an asshole, there has been more Sunni suicide bombers than Shia ones.
Small demonstration starting up in Amman. There are 25 Jordanians on the trip.
The same 5 clowns , one draped in an Israeli flag did likewise during the Arabic Jazeera telecast.
No Mooser, this was planned with the consent of America and it isn't a slap since Obama had to have given his consent.
Israeli Ambassador refusing to report the Turkish Foreign Ministry as asked to do. He is claiming that his life would be in danger on his way to there.
The starting point in any future discussion on what happened should be based on the fact that Israel does NOTHING without America's prior approval.
Manaar reporting that the 600-passeger Marmara has been boarded but still NOT under the control of the Israeli forces. 9 of the dead identified so far are Turkish.
Sheikh Raed Sallah, the Palestinian in out of Israeli prisons for his activism in Jerusalem that is on board has been seriously wounded. The captain of one of the ships is also wounded and in serious condition.
Number of killed starting to reach 14 to 16
There is more and more talk that the number of killed is 10. The al-Arabia statioon started reporting on this with an Israeli-sourced report that those were killed when they attacked the Israeli soldiers with knives.
Turkish police called in to protect the Israeli ambassador. 6 Turkish sailors are reported killed in Iskadaroun possible from a missile explosion??? This is getting crazier by the minute.
Jazeera reporter Abbas Nasser on board one of the ships was reporting just before the communication was lost that were 2 killed and 30 injured when "hundreds" of Israeli soldiers attacked the ship. Turkish demonstrations in Istanbul and Ankara growing.
The one and only live coverage is on Jazeera that is picking it off from the Turkish stations. Ships being attacked from sea and air and scenes of injured . Not a word or even a banner mention on what is happening on the Saudi-owned al-Arabia. CNN International has sports on. Jazeera reporting demonstrations started at the American Embassy in Turkey and Turkish Ministers in meeting now about what is going on. Nothing happening in Arab countries, as usual.
Rachel, you could somewhat use (ya) muhamassah although it wouldn't be accurate but close enough for your purposes. Hamas as a noun that means enthusiasm or zeal but the Hamas you are talking about is the acronym for Harakat al-muqawamat al-Islamiyah (Islamic Resistance Mouvement). Ya muhamassah is the feminine for one that is eager or zealous since you are addressing Annie and she sure is muhamassah.
She wouldn't need the Uzi, Annie, Rachel is into steroids and body building at the gym everyday at 3 pm where she has an ex-Mossad guy for a trainer. She has already lost the chest but you should see the biceps on her especially when she is fully oiled-up.
Sean, you have to drop one or two French words to get through to Rachel ; this gives her shaky knees and she swoons all over the place.
What good would it do once it is signed? I'll stop believing that Abbas and Fayyad are collaborators when they'll ask the Palestinians to boycott ALL products from Israel, not jut the settlements. What they are doing with the settlements-products only boycott is giving legitimacy to Israel itself and selling the rights of the dispossed 48 Palestinians down the drain.
I liked Chaos' example of Mubarak and Musharraf.
I agree with what Boulos said. We are kept busy discussing 1-state versus 2-state or even a no state while forgetting about the 48 Palestinians that have been dispossessed as if a fait accompli. But this is how the Zionists have been doing it all along as with every new theft of land, discussions are about the most current theft and not the initial one. Today, the Palestinian are being forced to negotiate for what remains of the WB after the area of the settlements has been excluded. I'm not a Palestinian but I can see that any negotiations on behalf of the Palestinians by Abbas and his PA people are negotiations that are directed by the Americans for the benefit of Israel. Abbas cannot negotiate for all the Palestinians, especially that his term has already expired and there is no legitimacy to his discussing or agreeing to anything with Israel. As Boulos said, what gives Abbas the authority to speak and deal for all the Palestinians?
Eva, it's probably because Phil is still stuck on Obama's Cairo speech to the Muslims at large that had given hope to so many. Its apparent purpose is now seen as a helping hand to the Arab rulers with restless natives at home. Obama's speech was just another stalling gimmick and Emanuel's occupied Golan visit confirmed it. Nothing has changed with Obama and nothing will.
Peter in SF, I'm sure Phil must be grateful to you for the geography quickie on the Golan.
Israel has never annexed the WB except for Jerusalem? You probably also believe that a woman can be half-pregnant and agree with Dershowitz that Israel should disregard international laws that are not in its favour.
For the chosen, the two states are really only one. America is Israel and Israel is America. Probably wanted to show support for the settlers and the WB would have been too flagrant. The Golan occupation isn't any more legitimate than the WB one.
Since it's a foregone conclusion that the ships will not be docking in Gaza, the best we can hope for is that Israel doesn't succeed at breaking up the 700 as was done in Cairo by the Egyptians in January and that every single one of the participants turns down the offer for a free plane ticket out of Israel and go straight to jail. If this were to happen, the result would truly break the siege. I'm wondering what's on Erdogan's mind at this point. As to the leaders of some neighbouring countries, they must be secretely rooting for the FGM to fail, as usual.
eGuard, here's a bit more on it picked up from Wiki; Lieberman must be thinking back to 1988 ad how Israel would have handled the coming embarrassment; when a madman starts saying that Israel must stop the flotilla at any cost, you have to worry what other mad men in the Israeli navy are likely to do:
"... As Time reported, "Israel officially denied complicity in the car bombing but hardly bothered to conceal its role in disabling the ferry"[3] and suspicions of Israeli involvement were further reinforced when Israeli Transport Minister Chaim Corfu threatened that, if a further attempt was made by the PLO, "its fate will be the same".[5] Fuad al-Bitar, Athens representative of the PLO told an Athens news conference that "it is clear that the only one interested" in the sabotage was Israel.[4]. In July 2008, Haaretz referred to this attack, without admitting Israeli responsibility, in the context of the threatened[8] but ultimately successful "Free Gaza" breaking of Israel's siege of Gaza.[9]
I had already posted this on the flotilla thread earlier today but it's better suited for this one as it describes what's on Lieberman's mind:
Some of you may be familiar (Haaretz Talkback) with the name of Dr Ben Alofs from Wales that did a lot of work in caring for the Palestinians. In August 2008 with the planned (I think) first ship to break the siege, Dr Alofs had some sound advice to the activitists based on his own Cyprus experience when he tried to make such an attempt 20 years earlier; he posted the following on Haaretz Talkback which considering Israel’s history of dirty tricks could still apply to the current activists on Cyprus:
“… Title: Advice to the organizers: guard your ship around the
clock!!!
Name: ben alofs
City: Bangor State: North Wales, UK
In February 1988 Palestinian refugees from 1948 along with international journalists and sympathizers, of whom I was one, were due to board a ship, called al-Awda, the Return, in Limassol, Cyprus. The unarmed merchant vessel had been hired by the PLO.
The aim was to sail to Haifa, drop anchor and face Israel with the choice: letting the Palestinian refugees land ashore and exercise their Right of Return, starve them aboard or sink the ship.
Israel was in so much fear of this potentially great embarassment, that it sent a squad of Mossad agents to Cyprus. After killing 3 guards they then proceeded to blow up the hull of the ship in Limassol harbour, making it impossible for the ship to go to sea.
There is a serious risk that this may happen again. I would urge the organizers and participants to be very vigilant around the clock. Israel will go to any length to prevent this ship from leaving port!!!
Richard Witty, don't get too comfortable with Israel's new rules of engagement; they will be adhered in the same shitty manner as they abide by the one they have on the purity of arms. Israel is phony, Richard, there is nothing real or sincere about that country. It's all smoke and mirrors and lots of firepower in the hands of maniacs.
It is very disgusting.
Donald, while I don't condone attacks on civilians, other reports stated that Hizbullah's rocket attacks were not at all indiscriminate but had been aimed at military targets. The problem with Katyushas though is that you can properly aim them to hit the intended targets. There were also reports that came out of Israel from the northern Galilee from Arabs that complained that in addition to Israel not having provided Palestinian Israelis with shelters, the IDF posted its batteries more often than not in their communities and it was cross-referrenced between where most of the Katyushas were falling and the location of the IDF batteries in those villages. If you check among the 30 civilians killed, you'd find that half are Palestinian Israelis that got killed where the batteries had been positioned. Those that fell on Haifa were being aimed at military locations and of course, some went way off course.
But that was in 2006 and Hizbullah now probably has missiles that can be guided so there should be less harm to civilians in the next round.
On the subject of civilians, Israel killed over 1000 of them in its indiscriminate attacks on the cities and ambulances. It also attacked 2 army barracks where dozens of soldiers that had not been involved in the war were massacred. And what to say about the deliberate bombing of the seaside fuel reservoirs that leaked oil into the Med that almost surpassed the ecological damge caused by the Exxon Valdez? Who were the real terrorists in this war?
Sumud, it has been my opinion for a long time that with Israel's advanced technology and water management skills and Lebanon's abundant water supply of which close to 30% goes out wastefully to sea, both could make beautiful music together but it seems that Israel is intent on continuing to do it the easy way by stealing until the sources all dry up and of course those sources are all those of other countries so there is no real loss to Israel. The aquifer on the WB that supplies close to 50% of Israel's water is starting to dry up. Gaza that has no water was easily abandoned by Israel.
Meanwhile, Israel opened it's 3rd desalination plant a couple of weeks ago and it's the world's largest reverse osmosis plant. 4 years ago on the day the July war started, Israel signed a deal with Turkey for 5 underwater pipelines to run oil, natural gas, electricity and fresh Euphrates water from Ceyhan to Ashkalon but now with the deteriorating situation between Turkey and Israel, I don't know where that stands. Here's a blurb on the 3rd plant that opened recently:
"... The world’s largest reverse osmosis desalination plant has been opened in the Israeli city of Hadera by H2ID consortium, a joint venture between IDE Technologies and Shikun & Binui.
Financing for the plant, which cost $425m to build, was raised largely from European banks, according to Reuters.
IDE Technologies, a jointly-owned operation by Israel Chemicals and the Delek Group, said the plant is being constructed on a build, own, operate/transfer business model.
It is also constructing reverse osmosis plants in the Israeli region of Ashkelon and in Larnaca, Cyrpus.
Israel has been plagued by water shortages and has for many years been running low from its traditional freshwater sources; the Sea of Galilee and underground aquifers.
The Hadera plant will produce 33 billion gallons of fresh water each year, Reuters reports.
link to newenergyworldnetwork.com
Change “Hezbollah” to “the IDF” and it’s even more true. Though with one caveat. Both organizations violate human rights, but Hezbollah violates the human rights of REAL PEOPLE, members of your tribe or community or whatever, so that’s really,really scary.
(Donald)
Donald, which human rights does Hizbullah violate?
Yes, Sumud, it's the one. The ships will be "invited" to dock at Ashdod. What kind of crappy language is that? It's full of those little subtle messages, especially about the big bad Hamas.
Does anyone know if Jeff Halper is on this trip?
Some of you may be familiar with the name of Dr Ben Alofs from Wales that did a lot of work in caring for the Palestinians. In August 2008 with the planned (I think) first ship to break the siege, Dr Alofs had some sound advice to the activitists based on his own Cyprus experience when he tried to make such an attempt 20 years earlier; he posted the following on Haaretz Talkback which considering Israel's history of dirty tricks could still apply to the current activists on Cyprus:
"... Title: Advice to the organizers: guard your ship around the
clock!!!
Name: ben alofs
City: Bangor State: North Wales, UK
In February 1988 Palestinian refugees from 1948 along with international journalists and sympathizers, of whom I was one, were due to board a ship, called al-Awda, the Return, in Limassol, Cyprus. The unarmed merchant vessel had been hired by the PLO.
The aim was to sail to Haifa, drop anchor and face Israel with the choice: letting the Palestinian refugees land ashore and exercise their Right of Return, starve them aboard or sink the ship.
Israel was in so much fear of this potentially great embarassment, that it sent a squad of Mossad agents to Cyprus. After killing 3 guards they then proceeded to blow up the hull of the ship in Limassol harbour, making it impossible for the ship to go to sea.
There is a serious risk that this may happen again. I would urge the organizers and participants to be very vigilant around the clock. Israel will go to any length to prevent this ship from leaving port!!!
It's a shame how the NYT article was written up today. I would have preferred that they'd write nothing at all. It was a pure propaganda piece for Israel with the good guys in Israel offering to fly the activists home for free or they go straight to jail nd await trial. A hell of a choice and I hope that all participants opt for the jail to embarrass the hell out of Israel. I regret not being on one of the ships.
Dee Mena, Israel's squatting on the 30 sq km of Chebaa Farms has nothing to do with any ownership ambiguity between Syria and Lebanon but because it is located at the foot of Mount Hermon and the largest fresh water reserve in the area. Same problem with Ghajjar that is adjacent to the Wazzani Springs from which Israel is pumping water to villages in Israel. Israel would give you 101 reasons why it has to stay in possesion of these places as wellas the Golan Heights that together supply Israel with 25% of its water needs. It's all about the water and nothing else. Same with the occupation of the West Bank from where the stolen water supplies 50% of Israel's water needs.
Zamaaz, prisoner swap talks had reached a dead end and Israel wasn't talking anymore. In 1982 while in Lebanon, Israel opened a concentration camp at Ansar that had a prisoner population of 11,000 most of which were transferred to Israel when the pressure from international community forced the closing of this evil camp a couple of years later; Chomsky wrote about it. This is another deviation from international law by Israel. It's amazing how you and Witty discuss international law all the time while Israel is practically breaking every law in the book.
Richard Witty, Israel has been disregarding international law since it was created; you should be embarrassed bringing up the point of which party is respecting international laws or not. By the way, the 1701 had ordered Israel out of the northern part of the village of Ghajjar 4 years ago. What is Israel waiting for to get the hell out of there? I guess it doesn't want to move away from the Wazzani Springs that it's siphoning. Why does it continue harrassing the fishermen off Sour's coast and why the redundant overflights that are contravening the 1701? Still want to talk about international law?
It seems to have made the NYT this afternoon but the way it's written, it makes you feel sorry for Israel that is being so nice about the whole thing in spite of having to deal with the terrorists of Hamas:
"... Israel, which says it allows basic supplies into Gaza through points along the land border, denounced the flotilla as a political provocation and has vowed not to let the boats reach Gaza. It has invited the flotilla to land at an Israeli port, Ashdod, instead.
Gaza has been under an Israeli- and Egyptian-imposed blockade since Hamas, the Islamic militant group that does not recognize Israel’s right to exist, took over the territory by force in 2007. Israel, the United States and the European Union classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. The activists said the boats, which were expected to reach the coast sometime this weekend, were carrying 10,000 tons of cargo including cement, school supplies and medical equipment aimed at easing the hardship in Gaza.
link to nytimes.com
Zamaaz, if one day Israel finally leaves Lebanon and assurances are given that Israel would never again enter Lebanon or steal its water, I'd be the first asking for Hizbullah to disarm.
Wondering Jew, it was meant as a border skirmish like so many others like it in the past and both Hizbullah and rest of Lebanon got a walloping surprise from the way Israel over-reacted. If you're into Seymour Hersh, you'd have read his New Yorker article or his Democracy Now and CNN interviews describing how the war had been planned and coordinated with the Pentagon a year in advance and the likely date was set for around September or October after the Jewish vacationers would have returned home but an opportunity presented itself when Hizbullah abducted the soldiers and the timetable was moved up by Olmert. In short, Israel was about to launch a war on Hizbullah and all this talk about retaliation was BS. Conversely, there was also talk that Hizbullah was aware of the Israeli October plan and wanted to get them to commit to an immediate war and another that said that Hizbullah did it while Bush was holding a G8 meeting in St Petersburg and was about to get the group to back his plan of hitting Iran. Here's a bit from the Hersh article:
"... The Bush Administration, however, was closely involved in the planning of Israel’s retaliatory attacks. President Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney were convinced, current and former intelligence and diplomatic officials told me, that a successful Israeli Air Force bombing campaign against Hezbollah’s heavily fortified underground-missile and command-and-control complexes in Lebanon could ease Israel’s security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential American preëmptive attack to destroy Iran’s nuclear installations, some of which are also buried deep underground.
Israeli military and intelligence experts I spoke to emphasized that the country’s immediate security issues were reason enough to confront Hezbollah, regardless of what the Bush Administration wanted. Shabtai Shavit, a national-security adviser to the Knesset who headed the Mossad, Israel’s foreign-intelligence service, from 1989 to 1996, told me, “We do what we think is best for us, and if it happens to meet America’s requirements, that’s just part of a relationship between two friends. Hezbollah is armed to the teeth and trained in the most advanced technology of guerrilla warfare. It was just a matter of time. We had to address it.”
Read more: link to newyorker.com
Zamass, Hizbullah came to life with the help of Iran in 1982 when it became obvious that Israel had no intention of leaving Lebanon after it had put the PLO fighters on the boats to Tunis and done its trick or treat at Sabra-Shatilla with the help of the Phalangists. It was also during the Lebanese civil war of 1975-1989 when there was no army in Lebanon so Hizbullah and other resistance fighters from other groups such as Amal and the Communists were the only forces to fight the Israeli occupier.
As to why the negotiations were not with the Lebanese government, this is because the the deterrent to Israel in Lebanon is Hizbullah thanks to the Israeli and American governments that have been refusing to let the Lebanese army equip itself adequately and not have to rely on the resistance forces. The answer is always very loud and clear by the US that the Lebanese army must NEVER have arms that could be used against Israel. Love is blind.
Wondering Jew, I'm sorry this discusion is drifting away from the subject of the Free Gaza boats, so I'll keep this short to get back on topic. I don't condone crossing the border to get hostages but what Hizbullah did was mild in comparison to what Israel had been doing in Lebanon. The 2 prisoners I discussed Dirani and Obeid were abducted by Israeli commandos flying deep into Lebanon by helicopter. Furthermore, these 2 had been held in the torture camp for almost 10 years with one of them having been raped by the Israeli jailers. Like Witty, you appear to believe that Israel has the most model of societies that abides by all humanitarian laws. Israel is a rogue state and Hizbullah has a hell of lot of catching up to be as roguish as Israel in its conduct. For those that did follow the development of the war, Hizbullah fired afew Katyushas as a diversionary tactic while the abduction was in progress and it was a few days after that that the barrage of Katyushas really began raining on Israel. If the intention would have been on war as you said in your opening statement, , the katyushas would have started immediately with the Israeli bombing of Lebanon.
Sorry to contradict Shingo here, but the abductions happened on the Israeli side of the border. The initial information that said it happened in Lebanon did not come from Hizbullah as this organization very rarily admits or denies anything to keep the enemy guessing.
You misunderstood the part about the swaps. The part about info on Arad for the release of Kuntar came as an exception to the general rule. Swapping was developed by Israel, especially on cadavers and body parts; this was an Israeli art that Hizbullah copied. Anyway, since Israel renegged on that deal, you can say that there has never been any release without any swapping.
As to Israel's interest in Regev and Goldwasser, it showed the same interest and eagerness to get them back as it has been showing in getting back Shalit that has been held prisoner since 2006. Israel does not want Shalit because getting him back would take away any excuse Israel has been using to continue stealing land from the Palestinians. Israel doesn't want Shalit. Israel needs to keep those cheques coming and for that, it has to have Shalit kept in captivity and to have other bogeys around like Hizbullah, Hamas and Iran. Everything about Israel is phony.
Shingo, I had left out the part about Nasrallah having publicly promised Kuntar's family that he'd have him home before the end of 2006 and since Israel had renegged on the Arad info deal, the only way of keeping his promise was to abduct some soldiers for a swap. All prior as well as subsequent releases of Lebanese prisoners by Israel had come only during an exchange of prisoners. This is what motivated Nasrallah to do the abductions as even the tough Sharon was very open to swapping prisoners. Up until that point in time, July 2006, Nasrallah had never failed to deliver on any of the promises he made and with the end of 2006 only 6 months away, Nasrallah was on his way to his first failed promise. He had been confident that the info he had provided Israel on Arad would get him Kuntar. After the war in a TV interview, Nasrallah admitted that had he anticipated that the abduction would have led to war, he wouldn't have done it. A war with Israel was not in Hizbullah's plan but a war evidently was in Israel's and it pounced on the opportunity to try to eliminate Hizbullah; the abducted soldiers were the last thing on Israel's mind, especially with the carpet-bombing of the district most apt to be used to hold the captives. In his May 25th televised speech this week, Nasrallah revealed that while the war was raging, some Arab countries were telling Israel to not stop the war until Hizbullah was defeated. He also revealed that in 2000, the same Arab countries had pleaded with Israel to NOT withdraw from Lebanon and to especially not do it unconditionally. A lot of things go on behind the scenes that we are not aware of.
As to the Lebanese prisoners swapped in 2004, Dirani and Obeid that both had been held for almost 10 years at Israel secret torture camp "Facilty 1391" that the UN keeps asking Israel about and keeps getting no answers; The JPost said this about Dirani:
"... An IDF doctor who had examined former Amal security chief Mustafa Dirani found physical evidence that supported his claim he had been raped while in an Israeli prison, Channel 1 reported Wednesday. The report identified a document that identified the doctor as Lt.-Col. Chen Kugel. According to the document, Kugel wrote: "On the basis of my examination of Mr. Dirani... the results can substantiate the essence of the complaint" that he was raped. The revelation came a day after a Tel Aviv District Court rejected the state's request to cancel a lawsuit filed by Dirani for having allegedly been tortured while in jail. Dirani filed a NIS 6 million suit in 2000 charging that interrogators had raped him, sodomized him, kept him naked for weeks and humiliated him to extract information about IAF navigator Lt.-Col. Ron Arad, who ejected from his F-4 fighter jet over southern Lebanon in May 1986. Dirani was freed to Lebanon as part of a prisoner swap in January 2004, but his Israeli lawyer has continued with the case. Dirani's lawyer Zvi Rish told The Jerusalem Post that he has known of the document for years. "I have that document and much more evidence including testimony of officers that prove, to my regret, that Dirani's claims are true."
link to new.jpost.com
Frances, stop hinting that the Zionists control the press; you'll be called an antisemite.
Richard Witty, most of the quotes you are using to describe Hizbullah are false and so is your information on it. Israel still has some withdrawing to do from the northern half of Ghajjar Village, from the hills of Kfarshouba and from the hamlets of Chebaa Farms that Syria has confirmed as Lebanese. Until Israel takes its thieving hands off these areas, the Hizbullah resistance is very legitimate and very necessary.
Israel withdrew unconditionally with its tail between its legs on May 25. 2000 and not in 2004 as you think.
Your wires are crossed; what happened in 2004 was the swap of the Israeli spy/drug dealer Elhanan Tannenbaum that Hizbullah had captured and the bodies of 3 Israeli soldiers for 435 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners held by Israel that included Mustapha Dirani and Sheik Obeid that had been kidnapped by Israel 10 years earlier to use in swap for info on the terrorist Ron Arad. Hizbullah had insisted that the swap include Kuntar but Israel refused and said it would release him only for fresh information on Arad that Hizbullah would try to get. The following year, Hizbullah provided the information to Israel that they could not locate Arad or what had happened to him but Israel, eventhough it admitted that Hizbullah had honestly tried to find Arad, renegged on its promise to release Kuntar. The following year, based on a known fact that Israel only releases prisoners in exchange for Israeli ones, Hizbullah crossed the border to get prisoners to swap for Kuntar and the few remaining prisoners in Israel. The day of the abduction, Nasrallah went on TV to announce what Hizbullah had done and that he was waiting for the negotiations to start for the exchange of prisoners. The next morning, Israel started bombing Lebanon. In the end, even with half of Lebanon's infrastructures destroyed, it was still forced to make the Kuntar swap.
Richard, your knowledge of ME history stinks.
...It is similar to the condition with Hezbollah in 2006, which ambiguously committed Lebanon to a state of war with Israel. Lebanon had the “out” to say, “it was Hezbollah that did it”. They no longer have that out.
Now that Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government and extremely highly armed, and opportunist and willing to grossly lie in that opportunism, things can get way out of hand.
(Richard W.)
The only ones that said "Hizbullah did it" were the paid collaborators of Israel that represent a very minute part of the population. 80% of the Lebanese stood solidly behind Hizbullah in 2006 and know that Israel wouldn't dare attack Lebanon again. Most Lebanese feel safer with Hizbullah keeping Israel spooked. Hizbullah will not admit or deny to what special weapons it has in store for Israel if it attacked but it contrary to what you said, it does not lie.
A couple of days back, Nasrallah put Israel on notice that if it tried a blockade of Lebanon as it did in 2006, ships heading for Israeli ports or leaving Israeli ports would be targeted. Israelis remembering what Hizbullah did to the Hanit warship that had been shelling civilians in Beirut know that this is not an idle threat. To add to Dee Mena's rhethorical question, would Israel now be in a position to claim that it is being psychologically blockaded from blockading Lebanon and that this would justify an attack on Lebanon? Anyway, no one in Lebanon is afraid of an attack and the Israeli forces can go on taking out their frustrations on defenseless Palestinian women and children.
I was under the mistaken impression that it was sacrilegious for Jews to destroy fruit-bearing trees. Israelis have destroyed over a million olive trees since it was created with half that amount destroyed in the last 10 years or so. A light onto nations indeed.
For more on the horrible Israeli onslaught on olive trees:
link to ameu.org
A little taken from the above:
...Thirty-five years ago, Mohammad Abu-Awad, a teacher of agriculture, planted 70 olive trees on his land. On the night of Sept. 25, 2009, the eve of the olive-picking season, while he slept, vandals came to his grove from the Jewish settlement of Adei Ad. Armed with buzz saws, they ravaged his field, leaving twisted stubs. Abu-Awad wrapped the mutilated limbs in sackcloth to shield them from sun scald. He would replant them, he said. If he can.
Twenty acres had already been taken from him to build the Jewish settlement of Shiloh, and another 25 for the settlement of Rahelim. Four acres remained. Now 68, his eyes wet, he told the Israeli journalist Gideon Levy: ”If I had been there, I’d have told them, cut off my hands, but don’t cut down my trees. What did the tree do to them, for them to treat it like this? I love the soil, I am in love with it. I am not afraid of them. If they want to kill me, let them. This is my land. I sleep on it.”
Mohammad Abu-Awad is one of an estimated 100,000 families in the West Bank alone who are dependent on income from their olive trees.
Agricultural experts in the Holy Land estimate that over one million olive trees—yes, one million—have been uprooted and destroyed by Israel since its founding in 1948. Almost half of these have been uprooted in the last nine years, with the start of the second intifada in 2000. Just during its last war on Gaza, the Israeli army, in the course of 22 days, destroyed more than 13,000 olive trees.
The Guardian story came out in February 2006 but it didn't cause any ripples back then. Now it's 4 years later and it's the same story and the same sources but this time around, it is making news. What is different and why all this attention?
Bravo, Turkey. Richard, you surely must believe that Israel is a good role model for Palestinians on matters of international law.
Citizen, Iran has been buying insurance policies in Lebanon. This will keep Israel putting off what it had perceived as an easy bomb run into Iran. Iran is not Iraq and Hizbullah is not Hamas. The Samson Option spooked the Americans in 73 more than the Arabs and any new threat to use it will again be ironically aimed at its American benefactor.
Donald, Israel was never comfortable with having the WB in the hands of the Palestinians because it claimed Tel Aviv's airport could be easily hit from anywhere on the WB and that at its narrowest point, Israel was only 10 miles wide and the northern and southern sections could be easily cut from each other. This was the Israeli argument for many years and why it's not interested in giving up full control of the WB today. That almost 45% of Israel's domestic water is stolen from the WB is another important factor that is seldom discussed. Even the most ardent of anti-settlements Israelis change their tune at the prospect of having to live with half the water they are consuming today or of having their daily garbage that is dumped in open-air dumps would get diverted back to Israel proper. Same problem with the occupied Golan where Israel is getting about 25% of its water needs. Would Israel walk away from the almost 70% of the water it is now using that is coming from the WB, the Golan and Lebanon's Chebaa Farms? Very improbable but all kinds of tricks are used by Israel to keep putting off serious discussions on ending the occupation. Syria has been practically begging for years to make peace with Israel but all it gets back out of Israel is the finger. This should tell you something.
Hophmi, you asked about supporters of Palestinians interested in a 2-state solution: from Akiva Eldar, Haaretz 4 days ago:
...Public opinion surveys show consistent broad support for the two-state solution among the Palestinian public. A survey conducted last March among 1,153 respondents by the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion, headed by Dr. Nabil Kukali, found that 58 percent support peace talks with Israel. And when asked, "Do you support, or not, the reaching of a final settlement with the Israelis on the basis of the proposal of the former U.S. president, Bill Clinton, that suggests the transfer of almost all territories of the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority and a land swap in certain areas?" - 53 percent of respondents said they were in favor of such a settlement.
link to haaretz.com
That was very funny, droog, the first time I laugh while listening to Finkelstein because he always sounds so distressed when he talks that he distresses me eventhough I agree with what he says.
Sumud, I'm still getting blocked but the good news out of Australia today is about the Israeli embassy official that got booted out of Australia because of the Mossad Dubai hit for which some Australian passport had been forged. I think other countries are starting to tire of Israel's antics.
Thanks, Annie, it' a day of celebration for all resistance movements that take their inspiration from the Lebanese one that proved in 2006 that 3,000 fully trained resitance fighters and a few volunteers could stop the dispirited 30,000 IDF ground troops
Sumud, can't access the video for some reason, will try later. I visited Khiam prison the day after the liberation in May 2000 and it was a very sorry site to see. It had been used as a concentration camp by the Israelis during the 18-year occupation of southern Lebanon. Individual cells were 1 metre square. Khiam was the second concentration operated by the Israelis in Lebanon the first being at Ansar. Google Ansar Concentration Camp and you'll be shocked at what Israel did in Lebanon and to the 15,000 prisoners it held there. Noam Chomsky wrote about the torture by the Israelis in his book from page 230 to 236 and by comparison, what the Israelis did to the Lebanese and Palestinians at Ansar make Auschwitz appear like a picnic:
link to books.google.com