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Susan Abulhawa demolishes Itamar Marcus

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on 125 Comments

Susie Abulhawa demolishes Nakba denier Itamar Marcus on RT’s Cross Talk. Host Peter Lavelle opens the show, Israel: What occupation?, discussing the  Levy Commission report. Marcus starts out denying the occupation but at the finale concludes the land was desolate when the Zionists arrived. “No one was displaced…..the land was empty”

Classic, a must see.

(Hat tip MW commenter tombishop)

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About Annie Robbins

Annie Robbins is Editor at Large for Mondoweiss, a mother, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. She lives in the SF bay area. Follow her on Twitter @anniefofani

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125 Responses

  1. ColinWright
    ColinWright
    July 24, 2012, 3:56 pm

    “Marcus starts out denying the occupation but at the finale concludes the land was desolate when the Zionists arrived. “No one was displaced…..the land was empty”

    Ain’t these guys a hoot? No one would believe this if someone made it up.

    • annie
      annie
      July 24, 2012, 4:14 pm

      i know. at one point susie was almost laughing and she sort of wipes her brow. she repeated ‘wow’.

      lol

      • Real Jew
        Real Jew
        July 25, 2012, 12:21 am

        I almost feel sorry for Itamar for the task he’s been assigned to do…..defend the indefensible. That’s why hasbarist all sound the same. They hire experts in various fields to devise a plan or an image to counter israels transgressions, then they spread and regurgitate that message over and over again. He was taken to task for everything he said. And this is exactly why Israel’s supporters do their best to shut down discussion.

        These truths are what they’ve been hiding from the American people. Why they infiltrated our media, government and recruited our politicans to be their cheerleaders. Cuz they know informed Americans would never vote for a pro Israel politicians and Israel would never enjoy the benefits of the special relationship with a seemingly unlimited amount of financial, military, and diplomatic support.

        Despite growing solidarity with the Palestinians worldwide and the many victories attributed to the BDS movement, the Establishment in the US is just too strong. And since the US is the only party able to bring peace I’m very pessimistic that a resolution will come soon.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        July 25, 2012, 2:42 am

        They hire experts in various fields to devise a plan or an image to counter israels transgressions, then they spread and regurgitate that message over and over again.

        So true.

        I can’t think of a single Israeli aplogist who does no come off sounding like a 3rd grade idiot when they debate – even Michael Oren.

      • anan
        anan
        July 25, 2012, 3:19 am

        “the US is the only party able to bring peace” Wrong. The US doesn’t have that type of influence. Only Israelis and Palestinians can bring peace. Why do you think the US should bring peace instead of China?

        How about China mediate a solution between Israel and Palestine and lead an international peacekeeping occupation force as necessary? It is about time China pulled its own weight.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 25, 2012, 3:47 am

        The United States could write any agreement it liked and force Israel to accept it within six months — if not six weeks.

        Conversely, so long as the US lacks the political will to do this, negotiations are pointless. Everyone knows exactly what Israel wants. She wants everything.

        It’s simply a matter of telling her she can’t have it.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        July 25, 2012, 9:28 am

        Zionist history is bullshit
        Oren and the rest of the bots are ideologues who have very little to work with now that hasbara is dead.

      • Real Jew
        Real Jew
        July 25, 2012, 2:02 pm

        @Anan

        I disagree. In regards to dictating every move the PA makes yes, US influence has waned significantly. For example the inability of the US to stop them from going to the UN ect. But that is a result of the PA’s distrust of the whole honest broker crap.

        However, Israel is only able to exist and maintain the occupation through the US’s unconditional financial military and diplomatic support. Without this support, Israel would not have the resources to sustain the status quo. In addition, and probably the most significant benefit of US support, is their constant veto-ing of UN resolution condemning Israel’s violation of international law. Without these vetoes Israel would be forced to comply and in turn make the lives of the Palestinians better and eventually ending the occupation all together.

      • anan
        anan
        July 25, 2012, 3:55 pm

        Real Jew we disagree on US influence over Israel. Israel does not need US support. Many countries violate UN resolutions and get away with it. Even if the US were neutral, it is extremely unlikely international sanctions would ever be imposed. It is possible that China, Russsia, UK and France would quietly ask bribes from Israel, which Israel would duly pay.

        You underestimate how close Israel is to Russia, China, India, Japan, Germany, Turkey . . . even Greece. [Maybe because Greece needs Israel to participate in a bailout of Greece right now.] IDF relations with the Turkish armed forces are close, as is joint weapons product development, sales of weapons and tech . . . . not to mention civilian trade.

        One possibility if the US dropped support for Israel is that Israel would dump India for China . . . becoming a full fledged Chinese proxy. Israel has many other strategic options.

        Currently diplomacy is conducted by the group of 4 [UN, includes China], Russia, US, EU. I think this should become the group of 5. The fifth being China. Why shouldn’t China mediate an end to the conflict [and join the US, EU, Japan and others in bribing Palestinians and Israelis to make peace with each other]?

        China really needs to stop free riding on the sacrifices, blood and treasure of others.

      • anan
        anan
        July 25, 2012, 3:56 pm

        Real Jew, remember Israel wasn’t a US ally until John F Kennedy in 1961. In 1948 Israel was an ally of the USSR, Eastern Block, Tito’s Yugoslavia, and Turkey

      • lysias
        lysias
        July 25, 2012, 4:16 pm

        Why do you say Israel became a U.S. ally in 1961? There was never any treaty of alliance between Israel and the U.S. France continued to be Israel’s main arms supplier in that year, and up until the 1967 war. JFK tried strenuously to block Israel’s nuclear weapons program, and RFK ended the tax-exempt status of AIPAC’s predecessor a year before JFK’s assassination. Ben Gurion resigned as prime minister of Israel because of his strained relationship with JFK.

        It makes a lot more sense to say that Israel became a de facto U.S. ally (although still without a treaty of alliance, as remains the case today) on the date of JFK’s assassination, Nov. 22, 1963. Unlike JFK, LBJ was a pretty unqualified supporter of Israel’s policies.

      • lysias
        lysias
        July 25, 2012, 4:18 pm

        One possibility if the US dropped support for Israel is that Israel would dump India for China . . . becoming a full fledged Chinese proxy.

        Just what would be in that for China? Why should China risk its energy supplies in that way?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 25, 2012, 5:14 pm

        “Real Jew, remember Israel wasn’t a US ally until John F Kennedy in 1961. In 1948 Israel was an ally of the USSR, Eastern Block, Tito’s Yugoslavia, and Turkey”

        Hoo-boy! Bythe way, “anan” what was the name of the treaty or agreement with “USSR, Eastern Block, Tito’s Yugoslavia, and Turkey” which made them allies with Israel?
        Or no doubt you could come up with a news report describing Israel’s alliances at that time?

      • Ellen
        Ellen
        July 25, 2012, 5:29 pm

        Anan, you repeat a senseless meme.

        Israel is not a US ally.

        There is no alliance treaty between the US and Israel. Israel does not have declared borders and that is one of the technicalities that prevent any possibility for the US to enter into a treaty of alliance with Israel.

        . From Truman to Bush, the United States has assured Israel’s existence, while providing billions in military and economic support. Over the same period, no U.S. president has ever submitted a formal treaty of alliance to the Senate, or even moved the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

        http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/HistoryAmerican/Since1945/?view=usa&ci=9780195045765

      • Blake
        Blake
        July 25, 2012, 5:41 pm

        Who was bankrolling you then? Certainly wasn’t the Soviets.

      • Ellen
        Ellen
        July 25, 2012, 5:42 pm

        Anan,

        Israel does not need US support.

        Why is it then that AIPAC is one of the very powerful lobby groups in the US. Why is it that there is an army of “pro Israel” supporters crawling Capital Hill everyday, visiting not only members of Congress, but even spreading out across the country visiting any and all running for Congress on behalf of Israeli support efforts.

        For some reason Israel thinks they need US support. Why?

      • anan
        anan
        July 25, 2012, 6:54 pm

        lysias, I agree with your comment. JFK (and RFK) were the first pro Israeli top level US leaders. However LBJ was much more pro Israel then they were.

        You are a smart one lysias.

      • anan
        anan
        July 25, 2012, 6:56 pm

        Ellen, many countries focus hard on increasing their international influence. That includes creating national lobbies in as many countries as possible and making them as powerful as possible.

        America is an important country. It is natural for foreign countries to try to influence what the US does.

      • anan
        anan
        July 25, 2012, 6:57 pm

        Mooser, they weren’t formally allied with Israel. However they helped Israel win the 1948 war. Especially East Germany to be specific.

      • Merk
        Merk
        July 26, 2012, 1:31 am

        Leon Panetta would beg to differ:

        ‘US-Israel military cooperation stronger than ever’
        http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=273510

        So would the House:
        http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/07/19/3101241/bill-to-expand-military-cooperation-between-us-israel-passes-house

        Google: Israel US military cooperation
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/bqryyn8

        Google: Israel US economic cooperation
        http://tinyurl.com/c6kmzg3

        Who are you trying to kid here Ellen?

      • Blake
        Blake
        July 27, 2012, 10:29 am

        @ anan, fact of the matter is if America does not defend Israel unconditionally it wouldn’t last a week. All the American allies would follow suit and you would be left completely isolated and on your own. It’s a very fickle existence.

      • Misterioso
        Misterioso
        July 27, 2012, 11:50 pm

        Once America’s “special relationship” with or “passionate attachment” to Israel ends, as it surely will, no other country will fill the void as Israel’s protector and source of funding. Israel is America’s number one geopolitical liability, a millstone around its neck. China is never going to pick up America’s garbage. Nor will any other country. In 25 years: 3 billion Muslims (currently 1.75 billion); 600 million Arabs, including 10-12 million Palestinians between the River and the Sea. Can there be any doubt where America’s and the rest of the western world’s interests lie?

      • Ellen
        Ellen
        July 25, 2012, 6:24 pm

        Most astounding — aside for the bizarre alternate reality held by Marcus –was when at 10:57 he said “explain those polls where Palestinians say Israel is the best.”

        Resorting to citing specious polls is a desperate Hasbaristic debate tactic.

      • anan
        anan
        July 25, 2012, 6:51 pm

        Ellen, I saw his discussion of polls. Poor person. We need to pray for him, send him our love and respect in our thoughts. He doesn’t seem completely alright. Yeshua, please help your son Marcus.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 27, 2012, 12:57 pm

        So anan’ which is it? Yesterday you were thanking “Allah” for the death of a Major in the American Army, and today you are invoking “Yeshua”?

        I’m telling you, this one has the “Mis-direct and divert” brief from HHQ.

    • FreddyV
      FreddyV
      July 25, 2012, 2:35 am

      In fairness to Itamar Marcus, the era he was describing was at the beginning of the 1900’s. Susie and Peter completely misunderstood him and jumped to 1948

      Irrespective, the figure is probably closer to 500,000 than 100,000, so he’s still full of shit.

      The thing I find disturbing about the ‘land without people’ argument is that almost all Zionists were migrants, but Arabs aren’t allowed to be migrants. When economies begin to flourish, people relocate, but there’s almost 50 years between the migration argument by the Zionists and the expulsions of 1947 -48. That’s a long time. Of course, when you compare it to the religious fantasy of ancient Israel and conflate that with Eretz Israel, the 50 years are dwarfed by 3,000 years and the Palestinians are portrayed as interlopers.

      My family haven’t lived in the same city for 50 consecutive years, and my dad was an immigrant. Does that mean it would be acceptable for me to be removed from my home or from my country?

      It’s quite scary to think about, but people never seem to pick this point up.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 25, 2012, 3:52 am

        “The thing I find disturbing about the ‘land without people’ argument is that almost all Zionists were migrants, but Arabs aren’t allowed to be migrants. When economies begin to flourish, people relocate, but there’s almost 50 years between the migration argument by the Zionists and the expulsions of 1947 -48. That’s a long time. Of course, when you compare it to the religious fantasy of ancient Israel and conflate that with Eretz Israel, the 50 years are dwarfed by 3,000 years and the Palestinians are portrayed as interlopers. “

        It’s a moot point, as there’s no reason to believe there was any significant Arab immigration into Palestine.

        I once pulled some figures. From 1900 to 1946, the Arab population of Palestine grew at about the same rate as the Arab population of its neighbors. This particular Zionist argument is like all other Zionist arguments in that it is utter crap.

      • Brewer
        Brewer
        July 25, 2012, 4:18 am

        Comprehensive wrap up here:
        http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story559.html

        Nothing in the data indicates “Arab Immigration”.

      • FreddyV
        FreddyV
        July 25, 2012, 4:55 am

        Hi Colin,

        Moot point or not, the point I’m making is that Zionism removes the moral argument and justifies by distancing human reality from the matter. Arabs had a perfect right to immigration at the time. They worked and earned their livings, paid taxes, bought or rented homes and ultimately helped build the nation that exists there now. They have as much right to live there as any Jew, whether they lived there a year or they can trace their linage back over many generations.

        My point is that no one ever addresses the complete moral failure in this argument irrespective of whether it’s true or false. Just because not all of them can claim an ancestral heritage, it doesn’t mean Israel had any right to displace people who lived there.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        July 25, 2012, 8:32 am

        Many non Jewish immigrants moved to Palestine 1900-1918. Not as many non Jewish immigrants as Jewish immigrants, but many.

        What does many mean? According to the figures I’ve seen, less than 10% of the non Jewish population were immigrants.

        When they moved to Palestine, they became patriotic local citizens.

        Patriotic to whom? Ben Gurion adnteh Zionist leadership were already talking about the need to expell the locals before 1900.

        Any crimes committed were committed solely by England. Any punishment should to applied solely to England.

        So the terror attacks carrid out by the Irguna and Stern were commited by the British?

        Israel is only accountable for her actions after the 1948 partition.

        Rubbish. Israel’s founders were behind the expulsion fo 300,000 Palestinians and destroyed hundreds fo villages before Israel declared independence. The Hanganah’s onw arvhives confirms this. Isael is responsible for this crime.

        I realize that these views are highly controversial and might be deeply offensive to many.

        Neither controversila, not offensive, just incredible stupid.

      • FreddyV
        FreddyV
        July 25, 2012, 9:00 am

        I can’t the post Shingo was replying to. I assume it got pulled for Nakba denial.

        Shame really, Shingo seems to have kicked this Hasbarist’s arse.

        I know rules are rules and all, but the one thing I find Mondoweiss a really useful resource for is the latest Hasbara doing the rounds and it’s regulars deftly swatting away the bullshit. Like Shingo says at the end:

        ‘Neither controversila, not offensive, just incredible stupid.’

      • anan
        anan
        July 25, 2012, 12:07 pm

        Shingo, I don’t know what happened to my post. I am not anti English and hope I didn’t come across that way.

        “According to the figures I’ve seen, less than 10% of the non Jewish population were immigrants.” Aah. Looking for data on this.

        “Patriotic to whom? Ben Gurion adnteh Zionist leadership were already talking about the need to expell the locals before 1900.”

        In my view you need to be consistent. For example lets say an immigrant in Singapore or Malaysia who became a local citizen got slandered for being treasonous; I personally would bash Singapore or Malaysia for racism and bigotry. Ditto for Canada, the US, Australia, Hong Kong or Europe. In my view a country belongs to immigrants as much as it belongs to native born. Am I wrong? Therefore I get uncomfortable about criticism directed against immigrants who arrived in Palestine during the Ottoman Turkish or English occupations.

        Have you ever considered that the Ottomans and English might have encouraged immigration into Palestine in an attempt to sow dissension? Have you read about the games of the old imperial powers?

        In the case of the Ottomans, Jewish Palestinians were seen as natural allies of the regime. Or as “collaborators” by many non Jewish Palestinians. Moving around within the empire wasn’t seen as immigration.

        “Neither controversila, not offensive, just incredible stupid.” Not as smart as you Shingo. Still working on it.

        “the terror attacks carrid out by the Irguna and Stern were commited by the British?” Would like to learn more about these these two groups. If you ask me right now I would say that the individuals involved were accountable for their own actions. And that they should have been tried and imprisoned for crimes against humanity. But the country of Israel is not accountable because “Israel” hadn’t been created yet.

        “Israel’s founders were behind the expulsion fo 300,000 Palestinians and destroyed hundreds fo villages before Israel declared independence”

        This is England’s forever shame. That England allowed this slaughter even though England was required by international law to prevent it. England did similar horrific things in many other places. England owes Palestine large scale reparations for crimes against humanity. [Again I am pro English. I hope my previous post wasn’t removed because of a perception that the comment was anti English.]

        Different accounts of the 1948 war differ greatly. It seems like terrible atrocities were committed by all sides, most of all by the English.

        When I read about the pre partition militias in Palestine . . . there were many. Some nominally pro Jewish and some nominally pro non Jewish Palestinian. These different militias often struggled against each other even if nominally they were on the same side.

        Many Israeli sources describe some of the Jewish militias as absolutely horrible. They definitely did ethnically cleanse areas of Palestinians. East Jerusalem and Hebron were also ethnically cleansed of Jewish Palestinians. [Not by “ALL” Palestinians but by nutty extremist militias.]

        Shingo, look forward to learning more from you and others.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 25, 2012, 2:31 pm

        “Shingo, look forward to learning more from you and others.”

        Wouldn’t the process be a lot easier if you gave us some information about where you are, what your background is? You could put it in your commenter profile, and people would know to whom they were speaking.
        Not your name, or any personally identifying information, of course, just some idea of how you get your particular extraordinary combination of knowledge and ignorance.

      • Light
        Light
        July 25, 2012, 4:56 pm

        The Zionist militias ethnically cleansed Palestine and it is England’s shame?

      • Blake
        Blake
        July 25, 2012, 5:45 pm

        Colin, Marvelous info can be found on UNispal site. This one in a report dd 3 Sept 1947 re population growths in Palestine: “15. These changes in the population have been brought about by two forces: natural increase and immigration. The great increase in the Jewish population is due in the main to IMMIGRATION. 16. The Arab population has increased ALMOST ENTIRELY as a result of an excess of births over deaths.”
        http://unispal.un.org/

      • Blake
        Blake
        July 25, 2012, 7:03 pm

        Britain played it’s part too:

        Some examples of their complicity: The British forced 5000 Palestinians from Tiberias on April 19 1948. The Zionists took it easily the following day. They also forcefully evicted Palestinians from Haifa and took them to Acre. The British completed their withdrawal from Haifa on April 21 1948. On the same day it was stormed by 5000 fighters of the Hagannah. 50000 Palestinians were evicted from Haifa and Britain could have stopped that as they had the armour to do that. 70000 Palestinians fled from jaffa by boat to Lebanon and by road to east Palestine and Jordan.

        The British put thousands of Palestinians in concentration camps.

        Avi Shlaim, Israeli historian: The battle for Palestine for the Palestinians was not lost in 1948 but in the late 1930’s because Britain completely smashed to the ground the Arab revolt/forces.

        Ilan Pappe, Israeli historian: From 1939 there was no Palestinian leadership on the ground, they had all been forced into exile, and this is probably one of the reasons which contributed to what happened in 1948.

        British spared no effort to disarm the Palestinian people and the search for weapons was intensive. If they found even an empty cartridge in a home they would blow the whole house up. They would prosecute anyone who owned a single bullet. While the British disarmed the Palestinians they allowed Jews to carry arms claiming that Jews were a minority who needed to defend themselves.

        On May 14th the last British High commissioner Alan Cunningham signed the document terminating the British mandate to Palestine after 3 decades. During this time the British achieved for the Zionists what the Zionists could not have dreamed of achieving on their own. When the British occupied Palestine in 1917 the number of jews was 50000 when they left it had multiplied ten times to half a million.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        July 25, 2012, 8:07 pm

        If I recollect, the number of Jews in Palestine in 1914 was higher than the number of Jews in 1917 and because Turkey fought against Russia in that war, many Jewish immigrants from the Russian empire were kicked out because of their nationality and thus the 1917 figure was artificially low. the 1914 figure of 85,000 jews is thus closer to the reality of what premandate Zionism had achieved. (6 times 85 would equal half a million rather than 10 times 50 according to your reckoning. still a solid accomplishment during the time of the mandate, but nonetheless not the exaggerated 10 times.)

      • anan
        anan
        July 25, 2012, 9:19 pm

        Many thanks Blake for compiling so many English atrocities against the Palestinians. There are many others as well.

        May Palestine, Israel and the world know justice, peace and prosperity . . . God willing.

      • anan
        anan
        July 25, 2012, 11:28 pm

        We are agreed Yonah Fredman. About 19% of all Palestinians happened to be from the great Jewish religion in 1920.

      • Merk
        Merk
        July 26, 2012, 1:33 am

        Brewer,

        the ME Forum begs to differ:
        http://www.meforum.org/522/the-smoking-gun-arab-immigration-into-palestine

        Now you can claim the source is biased, but before doing it check out the site you linked to.

      • Blake
        Blake
        July 26, 2012, 2:23 pm

        Palestinian Population 1878 was 96.8% Muslim & Christian Arabs & 3.2% Jews with a total of 462,465 people and between 1882-1914 there was (illegal?) immigration of 65,000 European Jews to Ottoman Palestine.

        Zionist contradictions cover the whole of the English language it seems: Illegal immigration is a “solid accomplishment”.

        Here are some other nuggets: Truth are conspiracy theories, Natives are invented people, Robbery is redemption, apartheid is freedom, peace activists are terrorists, murder is self-defense, piracy is legality, Palestinians are Jordanians, annexation is liberation, humanitarians are Nazis/terrorists/anti-semites, threat to nuke the world is a last resort, facts are fiction, Naked aggression’s called self-defense. Resistance or fighting for freedom is called terrorism. Facts on the ground are inverted. Whatever Israel does it right. Legitimate Palestinian responses aren’t tolerated. Victims get no rights. etc

      • Misterioso
        Misterioso
        July 27, 2012, 11:14 pm

        The root of the Zionist argument that by 1948 Palestine’s Arab population had increased dramatically due to immigration from neighboring Arab countries is of course, Joan Peters’ long since debunked book “From Time Immemorial….”

        For the record:
        Dr. Porath, one of Israel’s leading demographic historians, called Peters’ book a “forgery… [that] was almost universally dismissed [in Israel] as sheer rubbish except maybe as a propaganda weapon.”(New York Times, Nov.28, 1985)

        Rabbi Arthur Herzberg, vice-president of the WJC, agreed: “I think that she’s cooked the statistics…. The scholarship is phony and tendentious. I do not believe that she has read the Arabic sources that she quotes.”(ibid)

        To again quote Professor Porath: “The precise demographic history of modern Palestine cannot be summed up briefly, but its main features are clear enough and they are very different from the fanciful description Mrs. Peters gives…. [S]he has apparently searched through documents for any statement to the effect that Arabs entered Palestine. But even if we put together all the cases she cites, one cannot escape the conclusion that most of the growth of the Palestinian Arab community resulted from a process of natural increase.” (“Mrs. Peters’ Palestine” New York Review of Books, 16 January 1986.)

        In his article entitled “Joan Peters and the Perversion of History,” Dr. Bill Farrell delivers a scathing review of From Time Immemorial: “After investigating Peters’ claims, this just becomes another badly written book with a premeditated bias. It will convince no scholars, or change the historiography of the Middle East. In the future, it will only be remembered by those who already believed its fraudulent assertions before its publication, who desired pulp instead of fact.” (Journal of Palestine Studies, Fall, 1984)

        Peters ignored the population figures for Palestine carefully calculated by expert demographers during the 19th century as well as censuses taken by British officials during the British mandate. Her thesis is also riddled with contradictions, easily detected misrepresentations of documented history and invalid data plagiarized from a long since discredited source. Many scholars are convinced Ms. Peters did not write the book herself, but served as a front for others whose motives are obvious.

      • Misterioso
        Misterioso
        July 27, 2012, 11:37 pm

        In 1893, the total population of Palestine was 479,000 with Jews making up 2% and Arabs 98%. By 1912, Jews comprised 6%. By 1920, the total population of Palestine was 603,000. Arab Palestinians comprised 542,000 (90%) and Jews 61,000 (10%)

        By 1925, increased immigration faciliated by the League of Nations British Mandate increased the number of Jews to 17% of the population and by 1930 to 18%; by 1935 to 29%; by 1940 to 31%. By 1946 the total population of Palestine was about 1,845,ooo with Jews making up just over 30%. Only 30% of the Jews had taken out citizenship and 10% of them consisted of anti-Zionist Arab/Palestinian Jews. Also, by 1946, Jews owned about 5.7% of the total land area.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        July 28, 2012, 11:14 am

        Misterioso- I had always remembered that the Jewish population by 1920 had recouped back to the 1914 level of 85,000. (Because many of the Jews had Russian citizenship, Turkey which controlled Palestine, kicked many of those Jewish Zionists out because they were considered enemy civilians, and it took from the end of hostilities in 1918 until 1920 for the Jews to recoup their pre war population.)

        Here’s a PBS timeline that lists the Jewish 1914 population as between 85,000 and 100,000.
        http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/suicide-bombers/timeline-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/through-1914/2768/

      • anan
        anan
        July 28, 2012, 2:33 pm

        We disagree Misterioso about the percentages. In my view the first real picture we got of Palestine’s demographics was in 1922:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_census_of_Palestine

        Before that we really don’t have great data.

      • anan
        anan
        July 28, 2012, 3:43 pm

        Thanks for this information. So aside from 85,000, other Jews were immigrants under English occupation?

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        July 29, 2012, 4:20 am

        Before that we really don’t have great data.

        Wrong as usual

        http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000636

      • Blake
        Blake
        July 25, 2012, 5:47 pm

        Fred: Theodor Katz, the Israeli historian who revealed the Zionist massacres in 1948. “I am from those who learnt in the school that people with no land looked for a land with no people so these people of here what we call Palestine maybe they were here but they were no people that’s to say that a million & 300000 people that were present here in 48 are either no people or were not here & this was a kind of mistake & 553 Palestinian villages that were totally destructed by Israeli army didn’t have any population because no one till this very day change this version of people without a territory were looking for territory without people”.

      • FreddyV
        FreddyV
        July 26, 2012, 6:49 am

        Thanks Blake.

      • Misterioso
        Misterioso
        July 27, 2012, 11:05 pm

        For the record, the total Arab immigration into Palestine between 1922 and 1945 amounted to only 40,500 people. (Edward Hagopian and A.B. Zahlan, “Palestine’s Arab Population: the Demography of the Palestinians,” Journal of Palestine Studies, III, 4, Summer, 1974).

  2. yourstruly
    yourstruly
    July 24, 2012, 4:28 pm

    so when all else fails for jewish nationalists it’s back to a land without a people for a people without a land? what losers!

  3. Dexter
    Dexter
    July 24, 2012, 4:38 pm

    …That guy is the Jewish equivalent of Joseph Goebbels!

    I loved the last question by Susie. Funny how non-Israeli Jews can never seem to answer that question…

  4. FreddyV
    FreddyV
    July 24, 2012, 4:44 pm

    Susie didn’t demolish anyone. Hasbara did.

    I nearly pissed myself. ‘no one was displaced.’ Ha ha ha! What a prick.

    Check out from 22:00 if you don’t have the time, but I recommend the whole thing.

    Great catch Annie!

    • annie
      annie
      July 24, 2012, 5:12 pm

      hey freddie, it was tombishop who caught it. i was just moseying along in the comment section this morning and there it was.

      ;)

  5. Carllarc
    Carllarc
    July 24, 2012, 4:54 pm

    a good show; it is pleasing that a segment of the msm would actually get into (1) how the 2ss is now for all intents and purposes a fantasy process being used by Israel to continue making a 2ss even more impossible and (2) how the Israel’s rhetoric, aka their justification, is total bs.

    • Graber
      Graber
      July 24, 2012, 5:52 pm

      Russia Today isn’t quite the MSM.

    • Roya
      Roya
      July 24, 2012, 6:18 pm

      RussiaToday is not MSM at all. It’s even more alternative than Al Jazeera and RT America’s coverage of the U.S. outshines that of all other networks I’m familiar with. Go through the CrossTalk playlists and you will be pleasantly surprised.

      • lysias
        lysias
        July 24, 2012, 6:47 pm

        May not be that mainstream yet, but Thom Hartmann said on his show on RT the other night that RT is now the most watched news show on line.

      • Roya
        Roya
        July 24, 2012, 7:58 pm

        I believe it; RT is the second most-watched foreign news channel in the US after BBC which is quite a big accomplishment considering it’s only 7 years old. I just hope that becoming mainstream doesn’t mean their reporting becomes mainstream.

      • anan
        anan
        July 24, 2012, 7:34 pm

        RT is a propaganda wing of Putin. Bizarrely, lot of the agenda they push is in my opinion again the national interests of Russia. Especially in economics.

        I am pro Russian for full disclosure.

      • ToivoS
        ToivoS
        July 24, 2012, 10:43 pm

        RT is a propaganda wing of Putin.

        I agree. And it seems that right now that the truth is something in Russia’s favor. It can’t last forever, but as long as it does we should relish RT.

        Al Jezeera had that reputation up to the Eygyptian spring. Great source of news and then it turned into a propaganda source for the Arab monarchies.

      • anan
        anan
        July 24, 2012, 11:27 pm

        Here we disagree. I think Al Jazeera’s coverage has improved a lot. I noticed a sharp improvement in their coverage back in 2007. [The improvement began in 2005.] This improvement has continued. Salut Al Jazeera.

      • Daniel Rich
        Daniel Rich
        July 25, 2012, 2:26 am

        @ ToivoS,

        Q: Al Jezeera had that reputation up to the Eygyptian spring.

        R: In my eyes they lost that reputation when Bush threw a hissy fit about an AlJazeera cartoon in which two gas pumps replaced two WTC towers and they only asked how high they had to jump [aka cartoon removed].

        @ Annie,

        Thanks!

      • Dexter
        Dexter
        July 25, 2012, 3:38 am

        You are pro-Zionist, which means you are pro-racism, which means you are pro-apartheid…

      • Emma
        Emma
        July 25, 2012, 8:08 am

        I think hoping to break into the US broadcast market after their popular coverage of the Egyptian revolution and then having that blocked by racists in the US government may have had something to do with realizing how to make sure the bread was buttered, or oiled up, or whatever.

  6. yesspam
    yesspam
    July 24, 2012, 5:10 pm

    Nice post.

  7. Roya
    Roya
    July 24, 2012, 5:31 pm

    Love CrossTalk.

  8. CloakAndDagger
    CloakAndDagger
    July 24, 2012, 5:42 pm

    Well, that was instructive! Not because I learnt anything new about I/P from that interchange, but because now I am convinced that Israel is doomed, as they have no leg to stand on or a justification worth a damn.

    This is why it has been critical for Israel’s tentacles to control the media and discourse here and abroad, because if the common Joe and Jane are exposed to debates like this one at RT, they are all going to be scratching their heads and asking some very uncomfortable questions.

    For the longest time, I was under the misconception that the people who spoke for Israel were just too stupid. We laugh at the ziocidal (thanks again seafoid) posters here on MW and make fun of their lack of logic or outright lies, to the point where it is so tiresome to even debate them, since they appear to lack intelligence or the ability to even provide supportable facts for their respective assertions. Certainly, one could be forgiven for thinking that Itmar is an idiot after watching the above video, but one would be wrong.

    I have since come to realize that they are not stupid at all (well they might be, but not for the reasons I cite above). No it is not stupidity that handicaps them, but the fact that they have been placed, either by choice, or because someone paid them to, in a position where they have to defend the indefensible.

    We have seen the best and brightest of Hasbara Central here on MW, cutting and pasting long diatribes from their talking points and prepared manuals, and it seems there has been an even greater influx of these denizens in the last two weeks – and yet, despite that non-stop onslaught, they are unable to convince a single person to change their negative perspective of Israel to a positive one. In contrast, there was a poll that someone posted on MW a couple of days ago that showed that just between 2010 and 2011, there was a 10% increase in the number of Americans who were negatively disposed towards Israel.

    The only way for Israel to prolong its status quo is to maintain a stranglehold on all media and control the narrative. Unfortunately for them, that is no longer possible due to the Internet. They have managed to keep news channels like Russia Today and Press TV off the airwaves (the latter was banned in Europe, I think?), but they have no way to control the Internet, although not through lack of trying as evidenced by the various bills that have come on the floor of the house, only to be defeated. No, the dam can no longer be contained.

    The single question that will stick in the minds of any non-ziocidal American who watched this video is the one posed by Susan (paraphrased below):

    Tell me why, I as a Palestinian, whose grandparents and great grandparents have been buried here for hundreds of years, and whose parents are not even allowed to step into Palestine, should have less rights in my homeland than you, as a New York born Jew, with no family connections to that land?

    There is no satisfactory answer to that question beyond “might makes right” – and that is the death knell of the abomination called Israel.

    • lysias
      lysias
      July 24, 2012, 6:52 pm

      Marcus’s Wikipedia entry mysteriously does not mention his New York origins, but I found them confirmed here:

      Itamar Marcus is originally from New York, moved to live in an illegal Efrata settlement/colony that was built south of Bethlehem in 1982 on the 1967 Occupied Palestinian land. He physically attacked Prof. Siri Nussauba, the President of Al-Quds University while the later tried to enter a building to give a talk in the US. As a result of the serious criticism and mistakes found in the report on Palestinian school books, Itamar Marcus was expelled or forced to resign as the director of the CMIP.

    • libra
      libra
      July 24, 2012, 8:16 pm

      C&D:We have seen the best and brightest of Hasbara Central here on MW…

      Surely not?

      • CloakAndDagger
        CloakAndDagger
        July 24, 2012, 10:06 pm

        @libra

        Surely not?

        I am afraid that is about as good as it gets. Sorry!

      • thankgodimatheist
        thankgodimatheist
        July 25, 2012, 7:55 am

        C&D:We have seen the best and brightest of Hasbara Central here on MW…

        Surely not?
        ————-
        We’ll the problem with them isn’t that they’re not bright, they could be, but that their arguments are factually flawed and that is nothing even a bright person can do anything about.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 25, 2012, 2:39 pm

        For God’s sake, it’s emotions and weaknesses Zionists appeal to, not reason!
        And if in the process they alienate people from Jews, they get points for that.
        Anything Zionists can do to convince Jews and non-Jews they are different species they consider a victory.
        If Hophmi, or Fredblogs (as an example) can convince readers that Jews are obnoxious, arrogant, and stupid a person might react to Jews he interacts with in a defensive or aggressive or nasty way. Whoopee, another point for Zionism! More “anti-Semitism”. And if they can exploit the weaknesses or problems of Jews, that’s all grist for their mill, too.

    • Blake
      Blake
      July 24, 2012, 8:28 pm

      Yeah that duplicitous “law of return” that allows people whose ancestors never lived in the Middle East to “return” and excludes Palestinians whose ancestors always lived there, never to return to THEIR homeland.

      PressTv was banned from broadcasting in the UK but it can still be viewed on their webpage and via Facebook.

    • mondonut
      mondonut
      July 24, 2012, 8:47 pm

      Tell me why, I as a Palestinian, whose grandparents and great grandparents have been buried here for hundreds of years, and whose parents are not even allowed to step into Palestine, should have less rights in my homeland than you, as a New York born Jew, with no family connections to that land?

      I will try to answer this for you.

      Susan and her family, despite their heritage, are not citizens of the state of Israel. And Israel, as a sovereign state, is both entitled and obligated to create and enforce an immigration policy as they see fit All sovereign states possess this right, which completely supersedes any human or moral right that an individual might feel they possess.

      Israel’s policy that favors one group over all others has little difference from the policies of every state in the world, which is to act in the best interests of the state and its citizens.

      If and when the Palestinians every get serious about creating their own state, they too will be able to create an immigration policy that will allow the return of their entire diaspora to the state of Palestine.

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 24, 2012, 11:10 pm

        mondonut July 24, 2012 at 8:47 pm

        “I will try to answer this for you.

        Susan and her family, despite their heritage, are not citizens of the state of Israel.”

        Uh huh. The State of Israel only has sovereignty over the territory it confirmed as Israeli to the UNSC 22nd May 1948

        The State of Israel has never legally annexed any territory beyond its Internationally recognized borders. That is why Israel MUST negotiate. Faced with the law, which falls completely on the side of the Palestinians, Israel would be sent broke for decades as it tried to resettle hundreds of thousands of Israelis back in Israel and pay rightful compensation for 64 years of dispossession, war, illegal confiscation etc. That is why Israel is in the UN and desperately holds onto the US UNSC veto vote.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        July 24, 2012, 11:43 pm

         If and when the Palestinians every get serious about creating their own state, they too will be able to create an immigration policy that will allow the return of their entire diaspora to the state of Palestine. 

        That’s a bit like a rapist saying that  when a woman get’s serious about “no” meaning “NO”, she will have a say as to whom gets to have sex with her.  

      • homingpigeon
        homingpigeon
        July 24, 2012, 11:46 pm

        Mondonut, Are you an anti-Semite doing black propaganda, posing as a hasbarist in order to provoke people into hating Jews? This type of sophistry buys into the worst anti-Semitic stereotype of the swindling, outwitting, outsmarting, fact twisting, not-to-be trusted Jew. So are you an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew?

      • Roya
        Roya
        July 24, 2012, 11:49 pm

        Susan and her family, despite their heritage, . . . their entire diaspora to the state of Palestine.

        Translation:

        Susan and her family don’t get to have rights because #BibiSaidSo. Haha suckers!

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        July 25, 2012, 3:03 am

        And Israel, as a sovereign state, is both entitled and obligated to create and enforce an immigration policy as they see fit All sovereign states possess this right, which completely supersedes any human or moral right that an individual might feel they possess.

        I don;’t knwo of any other sovereign states that impose immigration policies beyind their own borders. This would be like Washington setting the immigration policy of Mexico.

  9. tombishop
    tombishop
    July 24, 2012, 6:43 pm

    It is interesting that Susan Abulhawa is strongly for a one state solution in this interview. At the BDS conference in Philadelphia last February, if I remember correctly, she was strongly for a two state solution. I would be interested in someone interviewing her about what brought her to a change on the issue.

    After watching this interview, it seems we have reached the point where going over past history at this time is pointless. Defenders of Zionism will trot out the tired, worn out lies about the land being empty ad nauseam even as they contradict themselves in the same conversation saying the non-existent Palestinians just don’t want peace. How can they explain the Stern Gang, the Irgun, Deir Yassin ……….?

    In the future when people are in interviews like this, rather than going over the past which Zionists can never face, they should be asked about the present and future. Since they have irrevocably created this one state, do they believe in one person one vote; do they believe in equality before the law regardless of religion or ethnicity, do they believe in the right of freedom of assembly and no restrictions on travel in or outside of Israel? If not, then please stop this talk about Israel being the only democracy in the Middle East!

    • annie
      annie
      July 25, 2012, 2:57 am

      It is interesting that Susan Abulhawa is strongly for a one state solution in this interview. At the BDS conference in Philadelphia last February, if I remember correctly, she was strongly for a two state solution.

      i think your memory is off. here is the video of her speech:

      http://mondoweiss.net/2012/02/out-of-the-ballpark-susan-abulhawas-speech-to-the-pennbds-conference.html

      • tombishop
        tombishop
        July 25, 2012, 10:46 am

        Thanks for reposting this speech by Susan Abulhawa. The video of IDF soldiers”breaking the bones” of Palestinian youth is unforgettable.

    • chinese box
      chinese box
      July 25, 2012, 7:40 am

      “After watching this interview, it seems we have reached the point where going over past history at this time is pointless. Defenders of Zionism will trot out the tired, worn out lies about the land being empty ad nauseam even as they contradict themselves in the same conversation saying the non-existent Palestinians just don’t want peace. How can they explain the Stern Gang, the Irgun, Deir Yassin ……….?”

      Exactly the reason why I came to the conclusion years ago that “balanced” I/P internet forums are a total waste of time. Hasbarabots and Christian Zionist know-nothings love having activists waste time debating with them because it’s a distraction from working on real solutions like BDS.

    • seafoid
      seafoid
      July 26, 2012, 6:57 am

      I thought the reaction on Susan Abu Alhawa’s face said it all. An open forum watched by the world and the bots come out with this horseshit.

      Lavelle made an interesting point when he said Marcus’ point about there being no people was straight out of the 1980s. And back then Zionism was unquestioned. Now it looks like the Wizard of Oz. Marcus as an intellectual inadequate sitting behind a curtain pulling strings in Congress via the AIPAC machine.

      Very interesting that nobody more senior was sent on the show. They just don’t have the arguments in English any longer.

      The death of the 2SS is a real game changer. they can’t hide behind “wait, let’s see the final negotiations” any longer. Bad faith and hasbara failure together are dynamite.

      Fink is right. It is just too easy to destroy their arguments now.

  10. ritzl
    ritzl
    July 24, 2012, 7:34 pm

    Arguments aside, I love the intros on RT. They give actual context instead of palliatives.

  11. Blake
    Blake
    July 24, 2012, 7:39 pm

    So many lies where to begin? At least the terrorist founders of “Israel” were perfectly honest about what they had to do to found “Israel”, they didn’t sugarcoat it. I have to say that i find that more respectable than some of lying denial exhibited by Zionist propagandists today (not that I am condoning what they did in any shape or form).

    • Averroes
      Averroes
      July 25, 2012, 2:25 pm

      @Blake

      You’re right, they didn’t sugarcoat it, they justified it. See this:

      http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/when-jews-were-terrorists/

      Their tribe, bad, our tribe, good. Orwellian double-speak in the works.

      • Blake
        Blake
        July 25, 2012, 6:08 pm

        Thanks avorroes and it’s quite a recent article too.

    • Rusty Pipes
      Rusty Pipes
      July 25, 2012, 5:43 pm

      They’ve always been sugarcoating it for external consumption — those who didn’t sugarcoat, like Jabotinsky and Stern Gang, weren’t in the respectable leadership. They’ve just been tweaking the formula for different audiences over time.

  12. Shingo
    Shingo
    July 24, 2012, 7:56 pm

    She did a pretty good job but I don’t think she destroyed him. He got away with far too much BS.

    The fundamental points that he never addressed were that:

    1. Rabin, who signed Olso, was killed by an Israeli. So who rejected Oslo?
    2. Netenyahu fiercely opposed Oslo and is on tape boasting about sabotaging it. IN fact, Rabin’s family told Netenyahu to stay way from the funeral because they hold him repsonsible for inciting the assassination.
    3. Israel would never have become Jewish majority without expulsion
    4. The lie that 242 allows Israel to remain in the West Bank until a negotiated settlement is finalized
    5. That the ICJ , the US State Department, the UN and every international body has rejected his arguments.

  13. Shingo
    Shingo
    July 24, 2012, 8:04 pm

    BTW. Does anyone know about this poll that Itamar Marcus kept referring to?

    BTW. The journalist from the looks la lot like Mark Regev, only more intelligent and far more honest. ;-)

    • talknic
      talknic
      July 24, 2012, 11:21 pm

      Shingo July 24, 2012 at 8:04 pm

      The polls? Don’t exist as far as I can tell.

      If everything was as beautiful as Itamar Marcus suggests, why was there an Infitada?

      Itamar is just another liar (look at his eye movements) for a Greater Israel. Like all his fellows, they’re as far from the basic tenets of Judaism as one can get. Calling Israel the Jewish State is laughable.

      I always thought there has never been a constitution written because no one could reconcile “democracy” with “Jewish State”. Lately I’m beginning to think no one can reconcile Jewish State with the dis-regard for the basic tenets of Judaism.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        July 25, 2012, 3:07 am

        If everything was as beautiful as Itamar Marcus suggests, why was there an Infitada?

        According to Itamar Marcus, it all started with violence being taugh in Palestinian schools, though other than beign utterly rediculous, woudl not explain why those who participated in the intifada were adults and wouldhn’t have been subjected to such indoctrination.

        If everything was as beautiful as Itamar Marcus suggests, why was there an Infitada?

        According to Itamar Marcus, it all started with violence being taugh in Palestinian schools, though other than beign utterly rediculous, woudl not explain why those who participated in the intifada were adults and wouldn’t have been subjected to such indoctrination.

        Lately I’m beginning to think no one can reconcile Jewish State with the dis-regard for the basic tenets of Judaism

        No one can reconcile Jewish State with the dis-regard for human rights period.

      • chinese box
        chinese box
        July 25, 2012, 7:52 am

        Itamar can’t even keep the dates straight when telling his lies. He claims the protests started after Oslo, when the first Intifada began in 1987?

        Having guests who make these bad faith arguments really dumbs down the discussion. While this piece was amusing in a perverse way, it would have been better if RT could have found a non-shill to represent the Israeli viewpoint.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        July 25, 2012, 8:24 am

        While this piece was amusing in a perverse way, it would have been better if RT could have found a non-shill to represent the Israeli viewpoint.

        Being shill seems to go hand in hand with representing the Israeli viewpoint. Even the guy from the Jerusalem Post was refting his pathetic arguments.

  14. tree
    tree
    July 24, 2012, 9:24 pm

    Out of some perverse curiosity on my part, I suppose, I went looking for the polls by Khalil Shikaki in 1994-99 that Marcus claimed showed that the Palestinians gave Israel the best rating in the world in democracy and human rights. I figured that Marcus most likely purposefully misinterpreted those polls. What I found out was that Marcus apparently didn’t misinterpret such polls, he just made them up out of whole cloth. Or perhaps he hallucinated them during a ziocaine high.

    Anyone else so perversely inclined to actually look for any truth in what Marcus said, can peruse the polls conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research from 1994 to 1999, headed by Dr. Khalil Shikaki.

    http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/cprspolls/index.html

    Best of luck finding the non-existent.

    • ritzl
      ritzl
      July 24, 2012, 11:16 pm

      Thanks tree.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      July 25, 2012, 3:08 am

      Yes, a secodn that you Tree,

      I knew that from the minute he made that claim that it was going to be either BS or that he was misrepresenting the findings of the poll.

      Just like when these guys wave around San Remo without ever being able to quote the explicit passages from San Remo that say anything about a Jewish state or all of Palestine.

    • Roya
      Roya
      July 25, 2012, 4:27 am

      Wow thank you tree. After he said that Palestine was empty before the Zionist invasion I figured he was lying on that too but it’s good to have it confirmed.

  15. Dan Crowther
    Dan Crowther
    July 24, 2012, 10:28 pm

    what a hack itamar marcus is

  16. talknic
    talknic
    July 24, 2012, 10:29 pm

    Itamar Marcus puts forward nonsense for people who do not think or check facts

    1) : “The land was occupied illegally by Jordan” Odd, because Jordan became the Occupying Power by agreement with Israel under the Israel/Jordan Armistice Agreement. There are no UNSC condemnations of the Jordanian occupation or annexation of what was officially renamed the West Bank. There are seven UNSC resolutions condemning Israel’s illegal annexation of East Jerusalem and calling for an end to occupation UNSC res 476 “1. Reaffirms the overriding necessity to end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem;”

    2) : “not Palestinian by any kind of Palestinian State” Irrelevant. Non-self-governing territories are protected under the UN Charter Chapt XI and; Israel was recognized and a UN Member State, bound to the Charter, before the Armistice Agreements were signed;

    3): “Israel took it in a defensive war” The words ” defensive war” do not appear ANYWHERE IN ANY of the Laws of War, Geneva Conventions, the UN Charter, any Cease Fire Agreement, Armistice Agreement or Peace Agreement, because it is “inadmissible to acquire territory by war”. A sovereign may only “restore”actual sovereign territory by war Schwebel / Elihu Lauterpacht

    4): “UNSC Res 242” The resolution was only to end hostilities between already recognized “states”. Had nothing to do with Palestinian statehood or ending the occupation of Palestinian territories. Does not mention ‘Palestine’, ‘Palestinians’. Israel agreed by signing the two peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt as required by 242 / 338, to have “respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;” Israel was required to observe Egyptian sovereignty and withdraw, BEFORE peaceful relations resumed

    5): “Israel is following all the agreements” The UNSC says otherwise
    252 (1968) of 21 May 1968, 267 (1969) of 3 July 1969, 271 (1969) of 15 September 1969, 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971, 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980, 476 June 30 1980 and 478 August 20 1980

    6): “Israel had a right to attack Egypt …they did a blockade” A blockade only exists if it is enforced. It was never enforced.

    7): “Polls .. Palestinian rated Israel highest..” So why was there an Intifada?

    8): “From ’67 – 1993 …. in fact there were no borders…” Only the Armistice Demarcation Lines changed. Borders were the same as Israel was recognized BEFORE ever claiming any territory “outside the State of Israel”. Israel has occupied non-Israeli territory since 1948. None of which has ever been legally annexed

    9): Itamar Marcus quotes his own un-corroborated PMW translations of what Palestinian leaders and television programs are alleged to have said.

    10): “Palestinian leadership came from Tunisia” So what? Golda Meir wasn’t from Israel or Palestine. In fact, none of Israel’s early leaders were from the region. Herzl wasn’t and never bothered to live there although in his life time he could have lived anywhere in Palestine.

    11): Itamar Marcus conflates ‘land’ ownership, aka “real estate”, with “territory”. The LoN Mandate for Palestine doesn’t mention “land/real estate”. UNGA res 181 doesn’t mention “land/real estate”. None of the Armistice Agreements mention “land/real estate”. None of the UNSC resolutions mention “land/real estate”. They all say “TERRITORY”. Territory belongs to the legitimate citizens of the territory, whether they own ‘real estate’, rent ‘real estate’ or live under a bridge.

    12): “The land was desolate when the Zionist movement started” Odd. It had supported its population for centuries, the “Land of milk and honey”. Bayard Taylor 1852, Laurence Oliphant 1887 and Twain all described Palestine in glowing terms. Read Innocents Abroad. Twain has been cherry picked for the worst areas only.

    13):“The land was empty, just look at the numbers” But Itamar Marcus had just said there were 150,000 people, mostly Arabs. Far from empty. He then tries to dismiss the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians dispossessed, by saying there are now ten million people in the region. By his criteria, the holocaust could not have happened because there are now some 13 million Jews worldwide. Nice to know my relatives didn’t die under the Nazi regime.

    • tree
      tree
      July 25, 2012, 12:21 am

      But Itamar Marcus had just said there were 150,000 people, mostly Arabs. Far from empty.

      Marcus didn’t make clear what time period he was talking about, but even the most conservative estimates of the Arab population of Palestine in the 1880s put it above 400,000. However, as I recall, part of Joan Peters’ tortured prose, From Time Immemorial, claimed there were only 100,000 Arab Palestinians in the mid 20th century. This may be where Marcus picked up his bogus 150,00 figure. On the other hand, after the ethnic cleansing in 1948, the total number of Palestinian Arabs in Israel was around 150,000, so maybe that is where Marcus gets the 150,000 figure he used. Maybe he meant “after we ethnically cleansed the place, Israel was empty of Arabs.”

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 25, 2012, 9:29 am

        @ 22:34 “When the Zionist movement started this land had a few hundred thousand people, the majority were Arabs…” (1899)

        @ 22:40 “…those hundred thousand people did not have ”

        @22:54 “two hundred thousand”

        @23:56 “hundred and fifty thousand”

        @23:31 “just look at the numbers”

        Hilarious, which numbers? He’s all over the place, like settlers sh*te in a Palestinian field.

    • andrew r
      andrew r
      July 25, 2012, 1:59 am

      Most of what Marcus said is pathetically dumb, but this takes the blue ribbon (~20 minutes):

      The Palestinian youth and Palestinian adults are being bombarded with such poison and such hatred.
      There would not have been an intifada had there not been poisoning from 1994 to 2000 that we had observed and we were screaming about and we were warning about… because as I said at the beginning of the Oslo Accords that Palestinians admired Israelis and democracy and human rights… that was a population we could have slipped into a peace treaty with if there had not been all the poisoning coming from the Palestinian leadership.

      So if I got this straight, the West Bank and Gaza population before 1994 would have signed a treaty with Israel had not it been for media brainwashing. But if they’re so easily brainwashed by the media, why would he even think they’d make peace with Israel? The way he talks about people, they have the brains of a scarecrow.

      • tree
        tree
        July 25, 2012, 8:30 pm

        Marcus also kind of forgot the first intifada, you know, the one where the Palestinians had their bones broken by the country with the “world’s best reputation for democracy and human rights”.

    • talknic
      talknic
      July 25, 2012, 3:26 am

      The “land without a people” mantra has to be the most bizarre, nonsensical and Antisemitic of all the zionutter claims, ignoring the longest period of Jewish presence in the region from the Roman era til May 1948, as Jewish Palestinians.

      64 years of denial and lies have eaten away at any semblance of rationality and morality.

      • Blake
        Blake
        July 25, 2012, 10:02 pm

        Maybe it was land without zionists as in free of zionists. Maybe that’s what they mean. Lol

    • FreddyV
      FreddyV
      July 25, 2012, 5:18 am

      @Talknic:

      Very impressive sir! I aspire to your abilities to present these facts in such short order. Amazing.

    • thankgodimatheist
      thankgodimatheist
      July 25, 2012, 8:19 am

      “Palestinian leadership came from Tunisia”

      I’m not aware of one single Palestinian leader coming from Tunisia. This is total nonsense!

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 25, 2012, 9:13 am

        thankgodimatheist July 25, 2012 at 8:19 am

        “I’m not aware of one single Palestinian leader coming from Tunisia. This is total nonsense!”

        Even if there were true, it’s just another meaningless piece of nonsense, like “we made the desert bloom” or whatever cherry pickings they quote from Twain. Completely irrelevant to the extent of Israeli sovereignty and Israel’s responsibilities as a UN Member State occupying non-self-governing territories.

      • thankgodimatheist
        thankgodimatheist
        July 26, 2012, 7:56 am

        “I’m not aware of one single Palestinian leader coming from Tunisia. This is total nonsense!”

        Even if there were true, it’s just another meaningless piece of nonsense.
        ——————–
        Yes Talknic, I read your comment above and I agree that it’s meaningless all the same but a fact is a fact and there is not one single Palestinian leader who came from Tunisia.

      • gamal
        gamal
        July 26, 2012, 9:28 am

        “I’m not aware of one single Palestinian leader coming from Tunisia. This is total nonsense!”

        wow! after being expelled from Beirut of course the PLO leadership went to Tunis wasnt Abu Jihad assassinated by Israel there, its amazing after (according to zionist bs) 1500 years in Palestine Palestinians remain Saudi Arabian (i know allow the anachronism, its kind of relevant) but after less than decade in Tunisia, the PLO is from Tunisia, colonialism means never stopping messing with indigenous people.

    • chinese box
      chinese box
      July 25, 2012, 12:10 pm

      @talknic

      Thank you for taking the time to refute those points. The problem is that people like Itamar Marcus can spew their garbage on TV and then some gullible and uninformed viewers will lap it up. Until the media stops having these hasbara-heads on in the name of “balance” we will always be playing a game of catch up in terms of getting accurate information out there.

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 26, 2012, 2:08 am

        chinese box July 25, 2012 at 12:10 pm

        Of course, propagandistas don’t give a damn what they say. As long as it’s out there, their job is done.

        I think it’s important to give folk info and sources so they better understand the situation and can effectively counter the nonsense used by Itamar and his kind.

        His arguments don’t even pass a simple logic test, let alone contain any facts.

  17. hughsansom
    hughsansom
    July 26, 2012, 1:37 am

    Itamar Marcus illustrates why I am so pessimistic compared to Philip Weiss or others who see reasons for optimism in a broad array of events revolving around Palestinian independence and self-determination.

    Israel’s war is a war on all fronts in a way that very few wars ever are. Itamar Marcus’s utter hostility to fact is an example of the war on truth, waged in news media around the world, in academia, and in political institutions. Israel engages in a hot war against Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and in Israel itself. This includes the ceaseless attacks on Palestinian property, institutions, and people. It wages economic war, political war — it is relentless.

    I’m reminded of the Babri Mosque in Ayodhya, India, destroyed by thousands of people swarming over the building. Israel’s assault on Palestinians is much the same, steadily tearing apart every element of Israeli society.

    Itamar Marcus proves himself to be a racist revisionist, but a revoltingly large percentage of Americans, including those who certainly should know better like Donald Rumsfeld (who famously said he didn’t think there was any occupation), share maliciously anti-factual views of Palestinian and Israeli history.

    • talknic
      talknic
      July 26, 2012, 4:09 am

      hughsansom July 26, 2012 at 1:37 am

      “…it is relentless”

      …and devious. Has been for over a century. Over a century honing the craft of cultivating people and influence to further the cause of the Zionist Colonial enterprise. Over a century practicing deceit and denial, never conceding, never admitting anything, never acknowledging, forever moving the goal posts, using the system to keep the ball in the air for as long as possible. Like arguing over ‘the’ and/or “all” in res 242. As long as the argument went on, there was no resolution. As long as the issue is in legal process, there is no judgement and;

      As long as a state is protected by a veto vote in the UNSC it can do whatever it likes, no matter how illegal. Can’t even be kicked out of the UN.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        July 26, 2012, 7:56 am

        “forever moving the goal posts, using the system to keep the ball in the air for as long as possible”

        But soon to come to a complete halt. They need European money to keep their economy going. If Zionism were a spartan way of life maybe they could hunker down and ignore Galut. Unfortunately it is a consumerist way of live. Novelty and gadgets. So they need goy money. Therefore they invented hasbara to keep the goys at arm’s length. . If it hadn’t been so shameful and the goys didn’t matter there would never have been the hasbara. Now hasbara is DoA.
        It is inevitable that the ideology and the economy will collide.

        And for all their cunning they never answered the question “what will you do with all those palestinians? “

      • chinese box
        chinese box
        July 26, 2012, 8:55 am

        @seafoid

        I have to agree with hughsansom’s view. I’m not optimistic. The recent settlement expansions and the Levy Report will force the elites to acknowledge the death of the peace process, which is good, but I don’t see Israel allowing the creation of a new multi-ethnic state where everyone has the vote and lives in peace and harmony. They haven’t come this far with the settlement project and all the hasbara only to paint themselves into a corner at this late stage of the game.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        July 30, 2012, 2:11 am

        Israel= Josef Fritzl

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl

        You can create your own reality and run it for a LONG time but it’s what you do to real people that counts in the end.

        Zionism is complete horseshit. Nobody in Galut needs it .

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