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What if an American politician came out for preserving a Christian majority?

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 163 Comments

Jeffrey Goldberg toured West Bank settlements with Hagit Ofran of Peace Now and posted:

Later in the day, after I tweeted out news of this latest round of vandalism [against Peace Now], I received an e-mail from a self-identified settler who wrote, “Which side are you on, the Jewish side or the enemies of the Jews side, like Peace Now?” Hagit Ofran, I would only point out, is a self-described Zionist who seeks to preserve Israel’s Jewish majority, and its democracy and at that the same time afford the Palestinian people some dignity, dignity being a Jewish value, of course.

I guess some dignity beats no dignity. But think on American values for a second. Is it kosher to talk about maintaining a white majority? Or a Christian one?

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163 Responses

  1. edwin
    edwin
    July 17, 2012, 9:50 am

    Is it kosher to talk about maintaining a white majority? Or a Christian one?

    Or an Aryan one?

    The “white race” is a constructed concept – what the hell is white and how is skin colour the definition of a race? Religion is not a whole lot better – I thought it was anti-semetic to claim that all Jews are the same, and yet we have Israel and its one-size-fits-all. If that isn’t bad enough we have Israel is for the white people.

    Christian states worked so wonderfully – think of the long lasting peace christian Europe had. In the end, Christian has also demonstrated that it too is arbitrary.

    It is mind blowing to use dignity and Jewish majority in the same sentence. There is no dignity in telling people who they can and can not marry. There is no dignity in controlling what religion people belong to by punishing “incorrect” religions.

    How about: Later in the day, after I tweeted out news of this latest round of vandalism [against Quakers], I received an e-mail from a self-identified Southern White who wrote, “Which side are you on, the Southern side or the enemies of the South side, like Quakers?” Hagit Ofran, I would only point out, is a self-described Christian who seeks to preserve the South’s White majority, and its democracy and at that the same time afford the Black people some dignity, dignity being a Southern White value, of course.

    • hophmi
      hophmi
      July 17, 2012, 1:51 pm

      “Religion is not a whole lot better – I thought it was anti-semetic to claim that all Jews are the same, and yet we have Israel and its one-size-fits-all. If that isn’t bad enough we have Israel is for the white people.”

      This is silly. Israel never said all Jews are the same, and anyone who has actually been there are looked at Israel’s demographics would know that Israel is not “for white people”, regardless of what backward nutjobs from Shas say.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 17, 2012, 2:42 pm

        “Israel never said all Jews are the same”

        Absolutely! Israel is dedicated to, and acts on, the principle that some Jews are more equal than others. Some get free housing and are above the law, and some other poor schmucks work themselves to an ember to pay for it. And some get exempted from the draft. No, Hophmi, no one can ever accuse Israel of thinking all Jews are the same. And a lot of those Jews in Israel are women, which presents even more problem in determining their degree of equality.

      • Krauss
        Krauss
        July 17, 2012, 3:02 pm

        Sure, no Jews are the same. But that doesn’t change the fact that Jews are still a very select, specific group of people. And we’re bound not just by culture or religion, being a Jew is being part of a specific peoplehood as you well know.

        So again, would you support the notion of America or any other country based on the importance of keeping the white majority(as in white and European gentile)?

        My guess is not. But then you and people like you would stress that ‘Israel is an exception’. That’s funny. Why’s that? Because it’s the Jewish state?

        This is part of the reason why Zionism is falling out with liberalism. There are not ‘tensions’. There are two different concepts.

        Liberalism is about freedom for everyone, regardless of creed, race or religion. Israel can never give full freedom because then it would cease to exist as an ethnocratic state. It can only pay lipservice while limiting non-Jewish immigration, treating the births of non-Jews as a ‘demographic timebomb'(in the words of Israel’s PM, Bibi Netanyahu) and many other outright racist policies.

        Whine all you want, hophmi, but you’re supporting a non-liberal state simply because it’s the Jewish state.
        And good luck with that, going forward for the next 10 years.

        By the way, I heard you were active in the ADL.
        Looking to be the next Abe Foxman?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 5:44 pm

        “But that doesn’t change the fact that Jews are still a very select, specific group of people.”

        How so? Because we don’t proselytize?

        “So again, would you support the notion of America or any other country based on the importance of keeping the white majority(as in white and European gentile)?”

        I’ve answered this question elsewhere. It is based on a bad comparison and false assumption.

        “This is part of the reason why Zionism is falling out with liberalism. There are not ‘tensions’. There are two different concepts.”

        Zionism is falling out with liberalism because the occupation looks pretty bad and has gone on forever. It is not falling out with liberalism because of some overarching ideological reason. Liberals do not like anything involving an “army” and they do not like not-nice army pictures.

        “Liberalism is about freedom for everyone, regardless of creed, race or religion. ”

        In an ideal world. Most liberals understand why Israel exists and why it is necessary, and upon further explanation, why it is the greatest bastion of liberalism in the region.

        “By the way, I heard you were active in the ADL.”

        You did?

      • edwin
        edwin
        July 17, 2012, 6:00 pm

        Same enough for all Jews to be covered by the state of Israel according to you.

        Shas – 10% of the vote 2009, 4th largest party in the knesset. There seems to be a very large number of backward nutjobs in Israel who seem to think that only white people can be Jews.

        I’d say that the difference between believing Israel is for Jews and Israel is for white Jews is one of degree not kind.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 8:42 pm

        “Shas – 10% of the vote 2009, 4th largest party in the knesset. There seems to be a very large number of backward nutjobs in Israel who seem to think that only white people can be Jews. ”

        Which is funny because the people who vote for Shas are hardly white. They’re brown.

        A Shas minister talking about how Israel is white is sort of like Omar al-Bashir killing Christians to show how Arab he is because he’s internalized Arab attitudes toward Blacks.

      • edwin
        edwin
        July 18, 2012, 5:54 am

        And yet, the colour of skin of those who are Shas does not matter. What matters is that a Jewish state must define who is and who is not a Jew. You must have your own definition, just as Shas does, just as the state of Israel does.

        Ethiopian Jews must have their culture destroyed (over time) because their version of Judaism is not acceptable. Jews for Jesus are beyond the pale. A Jewish state must be an oppressive state, to among others, Jews – just as a Catholic states originally felt they had to control Christianity.

        The contradictions of Shas and they are voting for a white definition when they are hardly white is indeed funny – but the funny part is that some people are white. The only people who are white are extremely ill. It is not a natural colour for homo sapiens.

        The creation of what is acceptable Jewish behaviour for a Jewish state is no more and no less arbitrary than Shas’s desire for white skin. And it is no more nor no less racist.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 18, 2012, 3:17 pm

        “…has – 10% of the vote 2009, 4th largest party in the knesset. There seems to be a very large number of backward nutjobs in Israel who seem to think that only white people can be Jews….”

        Isn’t it only Jews can be white people? After all, the author of that line was a Tunisian Jew — and the spitting image of a gentile Tunisian whose image I found — and he was referring to Arabs. Arab Muslims are not ‘white people’ — but Arab Jews are, apparently.

        I realize it’s a nonsensical position. However, it’s not mine. It’s the position of the Israeli Interior Minister.

      • petersz
        petersz
        July 18, 2012, 5:42 am

        Arab Jews and Jews from non-white countries have always been regarded as low quality Jews by the Zionists. They wanted them for demographic reasons but wanted them to become like white people and to abandon their “primitive” culture. It is not thinking that Jews are all the same but trying to make all Jews the same.

      • traintosiberia
        traintosiberia
        July 18, 2012, 9:11 am

        Did Nazi ever say that all Germans are same?
        Does Brahmin claim that all Brahmins are same and equal?
        Does Saudi Arab known for anti foreigner ,anti Hindu,anti Christian atitude claim all Saudis are eqaul?
        None does.

  2. Citizen
    Citizen
    July 17, 2012, 9:50 am

    In an interview, Hagit Ofran said UN Resolution 242 intentionally left ambiguous how many and which post ’67 Israeli settlements must be dismantled and the land returned to the Palestinians. She must therefore be referencing the English translation of said resolution, not the French translation which was not ambiguous: all of them. And she seems equally ignorant, whether intentionally or not, of the rational and common-sensical legal interpretation principle that when one interpretation is ambiguous, and another is not, go with the latter.

    “I guess some dignity beats no dignity. But think on American values for a second. Is it kosher to talk about maintaining a white majority? Or a Christian one?”

    Ofran’s not American to my knowledge. And Israeli politicians never refer to Israel as having “judeo-christian values.”

    The emailer settler conflated supporting the settlements with being Jewish. Obviously Ofran supports some settlements, but perhaps not all of them, in any end game for peace. That means, in that settler’s eyes, she’s not a “real” Jew. Wonder if that emailer settler was born and raised in Brooklyn? Then immigrated to an Israeli settlement to be free to be a “real,” aka fully-functioning Jew, as distinguished from being a fully-functioning American, Jewish or Gentile?

  3. hophmi
    hophmi
    July 17, 2012, 11:23 am

    “But think on American values for a second. Is it kosher to talk about maintaining a white majority? Or a Christian one? ”

    Israel isn’t America. And there are 14 million Jews in the world, not 1.5 billion with majorities in five dozen countries. How you can continue to compare the two without acknowledging that reality is beyond me. If the shoe were on the other foot, if there were 14 million Christians and 1.5 billion Jews, and there was a single state with a Christian majority, the Christians would do everything to make sure it stayed that way, particularly if they had a long history of being persecuted as a minority.

    And the truth is that people in US call for maintaining white and Christian majorities all the time in not so many words. What do you think the anti-immigrant sentiment is all about? What do you think the right-wing Evangelicals would like to see? What do you think the election of anti-immigrant politicians in Europe is about? These are country that are more white and Christian than Israel will ever be Jewish. They are 90% white and Christian. Even now, they face no demographic threat from their Muslims. And in places like Holland and Austria and France, large segments of the population are going nuts trying to make sure these countries retain their “European identity.” We all know what that means.

    • annie
      annie
      July 17, 2012, 11:29 am

      What do you think the right-wing Evangelicals would like to see? What do you think the election of anti-immigrant politicians in Europe is about? These are country that are more white and Christian than Israel will ever be Jewish. They are 90% white and Christian. Even now, they face no demographic threat from their Muslims. And in places like Holland and Austria and France, large segments of the population are going nuts trying to make sure these countries retain their “European identity.” We all know what that means.

      yeah, we know about the racist rightwingers. at least you know whose company zionists are keeping. 2 peas in a pod.

      • Bumblebye
        Bumblebye
        July 17, 2012, 11:46 am

        I think maybe the christian right wing wouldn’t like to see MK Michael ben Ari tearing up the gospels:
        http://972mag.com/mk-michael-ben-ari-tears-up-new-testament-throws-it=in-trash/51196/
        The same fine fellow we last saw sat on a stolen sofa outside a stolen house in E Jerusalem.

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        July 17, 2012, 11:46 am

        hophmi,

        Would you have any problem if white Christian nationalists in the United States and Europe treated Jews the same that Jewish nationalists in Israel treat Palestinians and non-Jews in general?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 17, 2012, 12:22 pm

        “Would you have any problem if white Christian nationalists in the United States and Europe treated Jews the same that Jewish nationalists in Israel treat Palestinians and non-Jews in general?”

        He most certainly would not! In a situation like that, Hophmi could attain his true stature and natural role, functioning as an intermediary and plenipotentiary emissary to the Christians, and keeping the Jews in line, with threats of what the Christians will do to us if we ignore his slightest wish. And of course, telling the Christians what we Jews can do for them.
        It’s an honored and respected position in the Jewish community, and Hophmi is just a little pissed that the US has no need for a function of that type. And if he can’t change himself, maybe he can change the world. We oughta be moving back in time several hundred years, any day now. And it pays well, you collect from both sides.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 1:01 pm

        “He most certainly would not! ”

        Speak for yourself.

        The irony is that Jewish nationalism sought in part to avoid the need for Jews to act as emissaries to Christians in this subservient way, and YOU are the one who continues to favor a situation which would return Jews back to that role, a role that European Jewish leaders still feel obliged to play to some extent.

        Forming alliances with other countries is very different from being forced to work with the powers that be to avoid having your people expelled. No matter how much you people complain about loan guarantees and the relationship between the US and Israel (and of course, never complain about, say, the relationship between Russia and Syria, Russia and Iran, China and Iran, and so on), it is an alliance, not a subservience.

        It is you who lives in the mental ghetto, Mooser, not me.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 1:15 pm

        “Would you have any problem if white Christian nationalists in the United States and Europe treated Jews the same that Jewish nationalists in Israel treat Palestinians and non-Jews in general?”

        Again, it’s a specious comparison. America is 80% Christian. Most of those Christians are White. It has been that way for two centuries. In the rest of the West, White Christians make up around 90% of the population and have for more than two centuries, during which they’ve killed off most of their Jewish population. So why should Jews now be held to the standards European Christians spent more than a millenia not observing, and only observe now because they are overwhelmingly hegemonic? Christians have nothing to worry about.

        Moreover, if white Christians in America faced the same challenges Israeli Jews have for the past two decades, there is no question in my mind that American Muslims would face a much more serious backlash. We’ve had a couple of terrorist attacks on American soil. And we’ve used those to justify holding Muslim immigrants in custody for years at a time, prosecuted two wars, imprisoned people in Guatanamo without charge for years at a time, surveilled mosques to the point where Muslim leader in NY refuse to break bread with the police commissioner, and so on. Now imagine if, instead of two attacks, it was 200. How do you think Americans would react? And this is acknowledging that regardless of how many terrorist attack there are, there is no movement on America’s borders to flood Americans with hostile “refugees” who have spent six decades speaking of how America is an illegitimate country and should not exist.

        I simply do not accept the assumption in your question.

      • chinese box
        chinese box
        July 17, 2012, 2:39 pm

        It seems you’re the one making the specious comparision. America was not built on top of Muslim/Arab lands.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        July 17, 2012, 2:50 pm

        “In the rest of the West, White Christians make up around 90% of the population and have for more than two centuries, during which they’ve killed off most of their Jewish population.”

        I guess your bigotry isn’t restricted to anti-Arab bigotry, eh, hopster?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 17, 2012, 2:51 pm

        “It is you who lives in the mental ghetto, Mooser, not me.”

        Gosh, Hophmi, why’ed you gotta go and say that out loud? Don’t you think everybody can’t tell?
        But no, you had to rub my face in it. Yup, that’s me, just another Jew stuck in a mental ghetto. BTW, you’ll need an invite and I’ll have to notify the security gaurd before you can get in, too. It’s strictly a gated mental ghetto!

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        July 17, 2012, 2:57 pm

        “How do you think Americans would react? ”

        Christian America would probably ask why they’re doing it and, when we realize that it is because we are stealing their land and murdering their families and children out of our covetousness for their country, we would realize the error of our sins, and beg forgiveness as Our Lord God, Jesus Christ taught us and try to reach a solution that was just for all.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 17, 2012, 3:11 pm

        “YOU are the one who continues to favor a situation which would return Jews back to that role”

        Ah, you caught me, Hophmi! See, it’s just that I’ve noticed things here in the US, and seen the way civil equality and the lack of religious test absolutely necessitates that kind of functionary for us Jews. You’ve seen the situation here in the US, Jews restricted to ghettos, forbidden most professions and positions, and the only Jews who do allright are those who can act as that go-between. And the only progress we have made here in the US has come through those intermediary Jews. Both sides pay them. I was hoping that when democratic principles bring this kind of situation to Israel, I could be one of those “I can fix it, or get it for you wholesale, or prevent a pogrom, if you do what I say” kind of Jews there.
        So don’t blow it for me, Hophmi.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 17, 2012, 3:42 pm

        “YOU are the one who continues to favor a situation which would return Jews back to that role”

        Hophmi, I owe you an apology, and I got out of the shower dripping wet to write it, so I hope you see it. I’m not always as sensitive, as perceptive as I should be, I know it, but maybe this time I went to far. When I read your comment, I understood that you seem to think that if Jews have to compete without the benefit of special legal privilege or even insider-elite networking, (best if its both, of course) they will not be able to compete. But I didn’t think about why you said it. If I had thought about how closely the belief that Jews need special privilege to survive and your self-image are tied together, I wouldn’t have said all those things. I can’t even imagine the kind of mental pain you are in. Hope the Ziocaine helps relieve some of your afflictions, and I’ll never say anything mea…oh Jeez, who am I kidding?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 4:38 pm

        Again, Mooser, you seem to be on Mars.

        As usual, your answer is wholly non-responsive.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 4:47 pm

        “America was not built on top of Muslim/Arab lands.”

        So land can’t be Jewish, but it can be “Arab” or “Muslim.”

        Anyway, America was not build on top of Muslim/Arab lands, no. It was built on top of Native American lands.

      • ritzl
        ritzl
        July 17, 2012, 5:11 pm

        Great question.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 1:22 pm

        “yeah, we know about the racist rightwingers. at least you know whose company zionists are keeping. 2 peas in a pod.’

        Sorry, Annie, but that crap will not work with me. The evangelicals are not “the company zionists are keeping,” and if we’re going to play that game, we can talk about the fact that the company Palestinians keep includes Wahhabi fascists in Saudi Arabia and Al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistan; these are people who express support for the Palestinians. We can’t control what the evangelicals say and do.

        And of course, the sentiments they express on immigration are hardly limited to them in America. Their views on immigrations are the views of most Americans. These polls suggest that vast majority of Americans favor strict border controls and strict enforcement and few favor amnesty.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 17, 2012, 2:55 pm

        “These polls suggest that vast majority of Americans favor strict border controls and strict enforcement and few favor amnesty.”

        You never get tired of comparing yourself to the worst in anything and everything Hophmi. And at what point in your age and dementia process do you simply, in a very witty shift, just start announcing that Israel is a “free democracy” and the Israelis are “a great and generous people” as if those were unquestionable assertions?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 17, 2012, 3:19 pm

        “Sorry, Annie, but that crap will not work with me.”

        Of course not! You are prepared to obfuscate on any subject, and if that includes denying what is perfectly clear to anybody else, so much the better. Hophmi, when the Ziocaine is singing Hatikvah in your veins, and doing a Hora on your synapses, you’re a match for anybody or anything. Yes sir, Hophmi, when you spit on your hands and start mendacitising, and both post- and pre- varicating, reality and truth just shakes its head sadly, rolls its eyes, and runs for the hills! I hear it’s got a settlement there.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 4:41 pm

        Again, unresponsive Mooser. Your fellow travelers here may enjoy your nonsense, but anywhere else no one would pay attention. It’s an old game to say a group is bad because some of their supporters are bad. You don’t like it when I criticize the presence of antisemites in the pro-Palestinian movement, so why should I let others get away with criticizing Israel because the evangelicals support it?

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 18, 2012, 3:24 pm

        “… You don’t like it when I criticize the presence of antisemites in the pro-Palestinian movement…”

        Understandably, it’s taken them a while to wrap their heads around the concept, but most of the anti-semites of yore seem to be coming around to the realization that Israel, more than any other place on earth, stands for what they stand for.

        All that rogues’ gallery of ex-KKKer’s and semi-Nazis and closet Nazis and neo-Nazis are your buds, not mine. They know their true colors — and they know yours.

    • seanmcbride
      seanmcbride
      July 17, 2012, 11:49 am

      hophmi,

      Would Israel tolerate the crude interference it its affairs of the militant Christian equivalents of Sheldon Adelson, Haim Saban, Irving Moskowitz, Mort Zuckerman, AIPAC and the entire apparatus of the Israel lobby?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 1:47 pm

        “Would Israel tolerate the crude interference it its affairs of the militant Christian equivalents of Sheldon Adelson, Haim Saban, Irving Moskowitz, Mort Zuckerman, AIPAC and the entire apparatus of the Israel lobby?”

        I have no idea. Perhaps; it tolerates John Hagee, who is in some ways more militant than all of the above. Israel is isolated in the world because of Arab blackmail and boycotts. It has to find friends somewhere. There are worse people than Christian evangelicals. Palestinian leaders (that’s for you, Cliffy boy) have made friends over the years with Hitler, Stalin, and Saddam Hussein, among others.

        I wouldn’t describe Mort Zuckerman’s involvement as especially crude; Adelson runs a right-wing Israeli newspaper, Moskowitz funds extremists in East Jerusalem, and AIPAC has sometimes disagreed with the Israeli government, which should show, if nothing else, that they are not a foreign lobby, but an American lobby that has a point of view distinct from Israel’s.

        What’s the point of this question?

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        July 18, 2012, 8:35 am

        Israel is isolated in the world because of Arab blackmail and boycotts.

        No, Israel is isolated in the world because Israel is a pariah and acts like one. It is isolated in the Arab world because becasue it choses isolation over peace because peace woudl require giving up stolen land.

        Palestinian leaders (that’s for you, Cliffy boy) have made friends over the years with Hitler, Stalin, and Saddam Hussein, among others.

        The Zionist leaders tried to make friends with Hitler too.

        It’s not that Israel can’t make friends, it’s that it only accepts friendship on it’s terms. It won’t make friends with anyone critical of it’s criminal policies.

        Gansters and drug dealers find makign friends difficult too, because of the lifestyle they chose to lead.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 18, 2012, 3:26 pm

        “…AIPAC has sometimes disagreed with the Israeli government, which should show, if nothing else, that they are not a foreign lobby, but an American lobby that has a point of view distinct from Israel’s…”

        …not that this stops them from doing the odd bit of espionage on Israel’s behalf. What’s a little spying for a friend?

    • seanmcbride
      seanmcbride
      July 17, 2012, 11:57 am

      hophmi,

      1. Did you support the white racist regime in South Africa? Afrikaners used precisely the same arguments you have trotted out to defend Zionism — they were a small minority surrounded by a huge majority.

      2. Which ethnic and religious nationalist movements around the world do you support other than Jewish nationalism? How many sacrifices have you made for any of those nationalist movements which aren’t your own?

      3. Do you support or oppose white nationalism in the United States and Europe, and on what grounds?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 1:40 pm

        “1. Did you support the white racist regime in South Africa? Afrikaners used precisely the same arguments you have trotted out to defend Zionism — they were a small minority surrounded by a huge majority.”

        The Afrikaners had no history of persecution before they came to South Africa; the persecution they experienced was at the hands of the British colonialists in SA. Inside the Green Line, there is nothing like apartheid SA, not in law and not in fact. And to the extent that it exists in the territories, you’re talking about a situation where the assumption is the Palestinians will have their own state, where there has been terrorist violence that is not comparable in tactic or scope to anything the ANC ever did, where Palestinians have expressed no interest in living in Israel or being part of Israel, where Palestinians have practiced the same policies by refusing to sell land to Jews and privileging Muslims over everybody else, and where the occupying power, Israel, is not a society built around race as SA was; there’s a religious basis, not unlike the nearly five dozen states that have Islam as an official religion.

        “2. Which ethnic and religious nationalist movements around the world do you support other than Jewish nationalism? How many sacrifices have you made for any of those nationalist movements which aren’t your own?”

        Eh? Every state in the Middle East is based around ethnic Arab and religious Muslim identity, and even if they become democracies, Islam will continue to be an official religion and Arabs will continue to be privileged. Been to Dubai lately? The tribal Emiratis there don’t work. Which other Middle Eastern states do you support dissolution for?

        Did you favor the creation of East Timor? It’s 97% Roman Catholic and the Church is mentioned in its Constitution.

        Are you for Kosovo? It’s an ethnic Albanian state and was created to be one. I supported it and argued with others that it deserved to be free of Serbia, also an ethnic nationalistic state.

        Latvia and Estonia are both ethnic nationalistic states.

        “3. Do you support or oppose white nationalism in the United States and Europe, and on what grounds?”

        I don’t support it on any grounds. Stop comparing Zionism to white nationalism. They’re not remotely the same thing. Zionism is not based on race, never has been, never will be. Israel is the most diverse nation in the region, BY FAR. To the extent that one ethnicity in Israel predominates, it makes Israel no different from many states in the international community and certainly no different from the Arab-Muslim religio-ethnic states that surround it in the region.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        July 18, 2012, 8:48 am

        The Afrikaners had no history of persecution before they came to South Africa

        Most child sex offenders tend to be those that were secually assaulted as children. Does that excuse their behavior?

        Inside the Green Line, there is nothing like apartheid SA, not in law and not in fact.

        Yes there is, in fact, Israeli friends of mine tell me that it’s an accepted reality that Israel is an apartheid state, inside and out, though they ralrely admit it outside of Israel.

        Of course, arguing that apartheid only exists outside the Green Line is a lame argument anyway, because the territory is 100% under Israel control and the apartheid that exists is the consequence of Israeli policy. So that makes Israel an apartheid state.

        And to the extent that it exists in the territories, you’re talking about a situation where the assumption is the Palestinians will have their own state,

        On the contrary, the assumption is that they won’t have one and the apartheid are intended to make one less and less likely. By creating bantustans as Israleis doing, they are ensuring that no viable state will ever emerge.

        Israel, is not a society built around race as SA was; there’s a religious basis, not unlike the nearly five dozen states that have Islam as an official religion.

        Israel IS a society built around racsism.

        Did you favor the creation of East Timor? It’s 97% Roman Catholic and the Church is mentioned in its Constitution.

        Timor does not refer to itself as a Roman Catholic state and at no stage was there ever any suggestion it would be.

        Are you for Kosovo? It’s an ethnic Albanian state and was created to be one.

        No it wasn’t. Kosovo was aleways a region. It became Albanian by default not design.

        Latvia and Estonia are both ethnic nationalistic states.

        Again, they became ethnically nationalistic over centuries, not from scratch.

        To the extent that one ethnicity in Israel predominates, it makes Israel no different from many states in the international community and certainly no different from the Arab-Muslim religio-ethnic states that surround it in the region.

        So why then does Israel keep lamenting the demograpic problem?

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 18, 2012, 3:29 pm

        “…The Afrikaners had no history of persecution before they came to South Africa; the persecution they experienced was at the hands of the British colonialists in SA…”

        ! I suppose you think they just upped sticks and moved to South Africa in the seventeenth century on account of the climate?

        Actually, quite a few of them were French Huguenots. See, they were noble victims of murderous persecution, just like the Israelis! Doesn’t that mean they were entitled to a driver’s license too?

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 18, 2012, 3:32 pm

        ““3. Do you support or oppose white nationalism in the United States and Europe, and on what grounds?”

        I don’t support it on any grounds. Stop comparing Zionism to white nationalism. They’re not remotely the same thing…”

        Then why is the Israeli Minister of the Interior on record as saying ‘Israel is for the White Man’? That sounds like the quintessence of White Nationalism to me.

        Just where is this good, kind, politically-correct Israel you profess to see? Through the dust of the razed houses and the records of massacres and the quotations (and actions) of half the people running the country, I can’t quite discern it.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 17, 2012, 12:16 pm

      , “and there was a single state with a Christian majority, the Christians would do everything to make sure it stayed that way, particularly if they had a long history of being persecuted as a minority.”

      And yet somehow you manage to stay in America. Oh BTW, about that “Jewish minority” question, Hophmi. Do you have a sister, heck, I’ll take your Mom, if necessary to keep the birth-rate up. What’s the matter, can’t you convince them to do their part?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 1:06 pm

        “And yet somehow you manage to stay in America.”

        Somehow manage to stay in America? How is that a response to what I wrote? Is that the victory? That we haven’t been expelled from America?

        “about that “Jewish minority” question, Hophmi. Do you have a sister, heck, I’ll take your Mom, if necessary to keep the birth-rate up.”

        You’re a sick person. There are 14 million Jews in the world and 1.5 billion Christians. There are many reasons for that, but two of the biggest are the missionary activities of the Church, which included several eras where the Church forced people to convert and others where conversion was necessary to enter high society, and the persecution of Jews by Christians; had the Holocaust never happened, there would be four or five times as many Jews as there are today.

        The point is not about the birthrate. It’s about whether the comparison of Christians worrying about their identity and Jews worrying about theirs is apt. It is not, because Christianity is much more widespread, has many more followers, and in recent centuries, has not experienced persecution. Rather, Christians have usually been the persecutors, particularly in Europe. So to compare the two simply is wrong. They are not the same.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 18, 2012, 3:36 pm

        ““And yet somehow you manage to stay in America.”

        Somehow manage to stay in America? How is that a response to what I wrote? Is that the victory? That we haven’t been expelled from America? “

        No one’s planning to expel you…we’re just wondering if Israel is so necessary and good and all — why don’t you go there?

        After all, if I decided that what is now Klaipeda was my birthright, I’d go there. I wouldn’t sit here in California claiming it was mine while I couldn’t even be bothered to take up residence.

      • yesspam
        yesspam
        July 18, 2012, 4:09 pm

        It’s about whether the comparison of Christians worrying about their identity and Jews worrying about theirs is apt. It is not, because Christianity is much more widespread, has many more followers, and in recent centuries, has not experienced persecution. Rather, Christians have usually been the persecutors, particularly in Europe. So to compare the two simply is wrong. They are not the same. M Judaism survives just fine without Israel. In fact without the fundamentalists it would be stronger.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 17, 2012, 12:30 pm

      “Even now, they face no demographic threat from their Muslims. And in places like Holland and Austria and France, large segments of the population are going nuts trying to make sure these countries retain their “European identity.”

      That’s because trying to spread liberal and egalitarian principles to a couple million people in Europe and America, or at least preventing them from reversing the course of history, is impossible! Gentiles are like cows, they just stampede.
      Ah, but fighting 4 billion Muslims or so? That’s a snap, nothing to it!

      I think Mondoweiss should send Hophmi a check. He is so reliable. They can post an article, and depend on Hophmi to come up with the most ridiculous nonsense in short order, sure to show Zionists, and Jews, for that matter, in the worst light possible.
      And hows about that sister, Hophmi. Worrying about Jewish minority status is keeping me up nights.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 18, 2012, 3:38 pm

        “… Gentiles are like cows, they just stampede…”

        Moo. I suppose given that you identify as a moose, I shouldn’t take offense.

        Can I at least be a Texas longhorn? Uncastrated? A mighty bull of the plains?

    • edwin
      edwin
      July 17, 2012, 12:54 pm

      And the truth is that people in US call for maintaining white and Christian majorities all the time in not so many words. What do you think the anti-immigrant sentiment is all about? What do you think the right-wing Evangelicals would like to see? What do you think the election of anti-immigrant politicians in Europe is about?

      I call these people racists. I don’t try to emulate them.

      What do you think that right-wing Evangelicals would like to see?

      Fascism.

      And I note that a rather large number of Zionists seem to want pretty much the same thing as the right-wing Evangelicals do as they use them as justification for their views.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 17, 2012, 3:01 pm

        “And I note that a rather large number of Zionists seem to want pretty much the same thing as the right-wing Evangelicals do as they use them as justification for their views.”

        When “you suck” fails, it’s time for “the whole world sucks”. Maybe I’m redumbdant linking this over and over, but it all comes back to the 1,2,3,4 in the article. And you can see them deployed, in order, on every thread Zionists think they got a shot at obfuscating.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 8:48 pm

        “I call these people racists. I don’t try to emulate them.”

        Neither does Israel. But it’s inaccurate to say that their views are on the fringe and that Israelis think the same way because of how they’ve handled their migrant issues.

        “Fascism.”

        OK, then. I think that’s a stretch.

        “And I note that a rather large number of Zionists seem to want pretty much the same thing as the right-wing Evangelicals do as they use them as justification for their views.”

        I disagree.

    • MRW
      MRW
      July 17, 2012, 1:15 pm

      “What do you think the anti-immigrant sentiment is all about?”

      “Open Borders Threaten Jewish Clout”
      The Forward, June 16, 2006
      http://forward.com/articles/785/open-borders-threaten-jewish-clout/

      Right-wing Jews started it here. This article caused Haim Saban to buy Univision five months later. The author of this article, Stephen Steinlight, was Lou Dobbs go-to source for years.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 8:52 pm

        Yes, it’s right-wing Jews that are responsible for anti-immigrant fervor. Whatever.

        I think the right-wing Christians have a lot more to do with it.

    • TomAmitaiUSA
      TomAmitaiUSA
      July 17, 2012, 2:22 pm

      The only people who see a “threat” in the changing demographics of a democracy are those who believe the majority has a right to vote itself special privileges. In a democracy that has a written constitution that guarantees equal rights for all AND political and social institutions that work to make that promise more than just words on paper, demographic changes are just statistics, not a threat.

    • ColinWright
      ColinWright
      July 17, 2012, 2:29 pm

      “If the shoe were on the other foot, if there were 14 million Christians and 1.5 billion Jews, and there was a single state with a Christian majority, the Christians would do everything to make sure it stayed that way, particularly if they had a long history of being persecuted as a minority.”

      First, it’s problematical if that would be the case. Various religions have quietly gone into that long good night. A fanatical last-ditch stand isn’t actually the norm. In fact, I can’t think of one. Even Israel isn’t one. Zionism wasn’t originally a religious movement — quite the contrary. It’s just found it convenient to wrap itself in that flag as well.

      Second, whether there would or wouldn’t be such a stand in the case of Christianity, that in no way implies that such a stand would be justified.

      Third, if Christians did make such a stand, the implications for those interfering with the desired majority would be less noxious, since Christian resistance would merely take the form of increasingly insistent demands that the dissidents convert. Jewish ‘resistance’ necessarily has to take the form of somehow physically eliminating the threatening presence.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 17, 2012, 4:52 pm

      hophmi, anyway you cut it, whites are a distinct minority in the world, and most whites are Christians, a smaller number are secular, but with great admiration and respect for the teachings and/or moral example of the Jesus story, including both agnostics and atheists.

      Try this exercise: http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/populate.asp

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 8:51 pm

        “but with great admiration and respect for the teachings and/or moral example of the Jesus story, including both agnostics and atheists.”

        Your point? Whatever admiration they have, it did not stop them from colonizing Africa and Asia, warring with each other for centuries, and persecuting minorities, culminating in the Holocaust.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        July 17, 2012, 10:33 pm

        “whites are a distinct minority in the world”

        Yay! I’m part of a minority!

        Anyone know of an on-line course of whining lessons?

    • petersz
      petersz
      July 18, 2012, 8:24 am

      So what you are saying is Jews have the right to be racist they are not very many of them! Talk about exceptionalism.

  4. seanmcbride
    seanmcbride
    July 17, 2012, 11:42 am

    Re: Jewish nationalism, white nationalism, black nationalism, Arab nationalism, Hindu nationalism, etc.

    Does anyone disagree with the proposition that Jewish ethno-religious nationalism is precisely analogous to white Christian ethno-religious nationalism?

    What is the difference between Jewish nationalists like Benjamin Netanyahu or Jeffrey Goldberg and white nationalists like David Duke and his European counterparts?

    Would any Jewish nationalists here care to explain why some forms of ethnic and religious nationalism are legitimate and others are not? Perhaps hophmi or tokyobk?

    I have repeatedly tried to raise this issue with Jewish nationalists here on Mondoweiss and elsewhere and have been consistently been met with a dead silence. Not a word. This is a subject they very much do not want to discuss.

    It is not a coincidence that the Zionist forebears of Likud (like Lehi) expressed pro-Nazi sentiments. Ethnic nationalists of all varieties tend to support one another against the “evils” of modern Western democracies and Enlightenment values. Zionism and Americanism are radically incompatible ideologies. Eventually even Jeffrey Goldberg will figure this out — it’s a no-brainer.

    • hophmi
      hophmi
      July 17, 2012, 12:25 pm

      “Does anyone disagree with the proposition that Jewish ethno-religious nationalism is precisely analogous to white Christian ethno-religious nationalism?”

      No, because the effect of Jewish nationalism is not and cannot be anything like Christian nationalism. And the reason is because there are 100 times the number of Christians there are of Jews. Christian nationalism has led to millions upon millions of deaths of Jews in Europe (not to mention many millions of Christians and others) and the colonization of entire continents. The converse is not true; the worst that can be said about Jewish nationalism is that it has led to the displacement of a few hundred thousand people in an era where displacement was common.

      “What is the difference between Jewish nationalists like Benjamin Netanyahu or Jeffrey Goldberg and white nationalists like David Duke and his European counterparts?”

      The difference is that Duke and his counterparts in Europe have experienced no recent history of persecution, but rather have been history’s persecutors. Duke’s ideology is the modern equivalent of the bigotry that enslaved Blacks, quashed Reconstruction, promoted Jim Crow, promoted segregation, and so on. Europeans like him are reformed and not-so-reformed fascists who previously persecuted the Jews, the Roma, and many others, and previously sent armies around the globe to plunder resources and enslave third world peoples.

      The nationalism of Netanyahu and Goldberg is not derived from the persecutors of the past. It is a reaction to the persecutors of the past. Jews did not persecute others in Europe. They were the persecuted. And after centuries of attempting to live as a minority, including during the Enlightenment period, they were slaughtered by the Christian majority. And of course, Zionism, unlike the nationalism of Duke and others, does not posit a nationalism based on race. It posits a nation based on a religious culture.

      To compare Jewish nationalism with the white identity nationalism is to equate the persecuted with the persecutors.

      • yesspam
        yesspam
        July 18, 2012, 4:15 pm

        the worst that can be said about Jewish nationalism is that it has led to the displacement of a few hundred thousand people in an era where displacement was common. Are you aware that Jews persecuted the early Christians? Can you say whst would have been the result o Judaism ad become the state religion of the Roman empire? Islam Judaism and Christianity have enough in their holy texts to justify oppression of others. Look up IDF rabbis preaching holy war before Cast Lead.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 19, 2012, 2:01 am

        “…the worst that can be said about Jewish nationalism is that it has led to the displacement of a few hundred thousand people in an era where displacement was common…”

        Let’s put that differently.

        Jewish Nationalism furnished yet another example of one of the worst crimes of our era — and it is the only such example that is still openly going on, and that the United States continues to openly and explicitly fund, support, and protect.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        July 19, 2012, 2:48 pm

        What a whole lot of crap.

        You say absolutely nothing about the criticism, no actually rebuttal.

        Nationhood based on ‘religious culture’ does not imply virtue and it sure as hell has not been virtuous in practice in any part of Israel’s history.

        Israel is a racist, colonial, apartheid State. You can dress your turd up in all kinds of euphemisms but 20% of the population thinks your full of ****. If we want to know how minorities are treated in this country we ask them. We don’t ask you, hoppy – the jail keeper.

        And Jewish nationalism is worse than White Nationalism. For one, White identity has no persecution complex to exploit so as to dehumanized its enemies whilst they suffer disproportionally.

        Case and point, this conflict has never been symmetrical in any sense – morally, logistically or legally. The Jewish colonists stole Palestine from the Palestinians, plain and simple and rid the indigenous population from their land. You are still ethnically cleansing them to this very day.

        And it was not a ‘few’ hundred thousand you Nakba denying fascist. It was close to a million.

        What Zionism proves is that the Israel Lobby and American identity politics have corrupted (or simply played a prominent and visible role in the ongoing corruption) of our political culture.

        It’s not as though things were pristine prior to Zionism and the US was a noble superpower. But Zionism embodies all that arrogance and petulance.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 19, 2012, 4:27 pm

        “You say absolutely nothing about the criticism, no actually rebuttal.”

        Just because you can’t wrap your head around an idea that disagrees with your extremist worldview does not mean I didn’t respond.

        “Nationhood based on ‘religious culture’ does not imply virtue and it sure as hell has not been virtuous in practice in any part of Israel’s history.”

        No nationhood implies virtue. I don’t believe I argued that it did. As far as Israel goes, its history is a lot less bloody that Europe’s is or America’s is.

        ” If we want to know how minorities are treated in this country we ask them. We don’t ask you, hoppy – the jail keeper.”

        I doubt the entire Arab population would say they’re unhappy in Israel. They’re at least happy enough in Israel not to want to be part of Palestine.

        “And Jewish nationalism is worse than White Nationalism.”

        Here we go off the Cliff.

        “For one, White identity has no persecution complex to exploit so as to dehumanized its enemies whilst they suffer disproportionally.”

        White identity led to the enslavement of Black people for 400 years. Christian identity led to the persecution of Jews and others for millenia and culminated in the Holocaust. And it is the ultimate persecution complex, because its genesis is the persecution of Christ.

        “Case and point, this conflict has never been symmetrical in any sense – morally, logistically or legally. ”

        I agree. There have always been 50 times as many Arabs as there are Jews in the region.

        “The Jewish colonists stole Palestine from the Palestinians, plain and simple and rid the indigenous population from their land.”

        WAHHHHHHH!!!!!! Jews didn’t do anything! It was a paradise before they got there!!! They didn’t build any cities. They didn’t plant anything. And then they just took stuff, and of course, our Arab brethren had nothing to do with anything and neither did we, even though our leaders told us to kill the Jews wherever we found them.

        “And it was not a ‘few’ hundred thousand you Nakba denying fascist. It was close to a million.”

        Now it’s close to a million. It’s a few hundred thousand. No credible historical source claims it is close to a million.

        What is closer to a million is the number of Jews forced out of Arab lands in the 1940s and 1950s.

        “What Zionism proves is that the Israel Lobby and American identity politics have corrupted (or simply played a prominent and visible role in the ongoing corruption) of our political culture. ”

        WAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! The Jews broke our political system! They’re the one responsible.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        July 19, 2012, 7:49 pm

        Now it’s close to a million. It’s a few hundred thousand. No credible historical source claims it is close to a million.

        A ‘few hundred thousand’ means 300,000 thousand roughly. No historical sources outside of your Zionist tin-foil-hat-wearing loonies regurgitate that lie.

        The number is around 750-800K. So yes, that is CLOSE TO A MILLION.

        And the Jewish exodus from Arab lands came after the Nakba and is not analogous. The Palestinians had nothing to do with the Jewish exodus and bringing it up is completely irrelevant.

        I agree. There have always been 50 times as many Arabs as there are Jews in the region.

        Nah, I meant more like A) the vast majority of the atrocities have been carried out by the Jewish terrorist groups of Mandate Palestine, B) the Zionist leaders had been discussing accepting partition as a temporary solution upon which to build further Zionist expansionist ambitions, C) the newly assembled Zionist army was better armed and organized and didn’t have to deal with the behind-the-scenes shenanigans of super-power meddling. The Jordanians and the Zionists had a deal. The was only a meager show of force on the part of the Arabs by one of their factions. They had already lost the war several years before.

        Furthermore, it took the Arabs forever to actually respond to Zionist terrorism. Your brethren began their campaign of ethnic cleansing and murder months before the Arab forces decided to go to war.

        So yes, instead of focusing on a superficial statement of fact (that there are more Arabs around that area) – you should pull your head out of your *** and go through all the previous arguments you’ve had here with much more knowledgeable anti-Zionists than myself (who say the same thing essentially about the 48′ war).

        Suffice it to say, your perception of Israel’s founding is based almost entirely on a perpetual victim-hood complex, even when you’re firmly standing on the throats of the oppressed and colonized. That’s the power dynamic you clown.

        WAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! The Jews broke our political system! They’re the one responsible.

        […]WAHHHHHHH!!!!!! Jews didn’t do anything! It was a paradise before they got there!!! They didn’t build any cities. They didn’t plant anything. And then they just took stuff, and of course, our Arab brethren had nothing to do with anything and neither did we, even though our leaders told us to kill the Jews wherever we found them.

        LOL

        Keep it coming. You’re hysterical.

    • Chu
      Chu
      July 17, 2012, 12:29 pm

      I agree that it’s the same, even if you make the minority claim verses the majority (Jewish vs Christian state). But Hophmi and others want to see it differently, they tell us it’s different. The grand dreams of fanatics can never be reconciled with rational minded people. That’s why you won’t get a response.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 17, 2012, 12:35 pm

      “Does anyone disagree with the proposition that Jewish ethno-religious nationalism is precisely analogous to white Christian ethno-religious nationalism?”

      Oh please, not even comparable! Where’s their Christian State? Where’s their Army? Where’s their nuclear weapons with crosses on them? Please, don’t compare us to that bunch of losers. C’mon, they found an entire new country in North America, and “In God we trust” on a nickel is the best they can do? Pikers! They keep losing religious control over countries. Please don’t insult us. Sure, they blather and rush hither and thither, but we do!

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 19, 2012, 4:28 pm

        “Where’s their Christian State?”

        England, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy . . . .

        “Where’s their Army?”

        England, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy . . .

        “Where’s their nuclear weapons with crosses on them?”

        England, France . . .

        “They keep losing religious control over countries.”

        As does Israel. Most the population is secular.

    • ColinWright
      ColinWright
      July 17, 2012, 2:32 pm

      “…It is not a coincidence that the Zionist forebears of Likud (like Lehi) expressed pro-Nazi sentiments. Ethnic nationalists of all varieties tend to support one another against the “evils” of modern Western democracies and Enlightenment values. Zionism and Americanism are radically incompatible ideologies. Eventually even Jeffrey Goldberg will figure this out — it’s a no-brainer.”

      Conversely, it’s begun to dawn on the various quasi-Nazi, semi-Nazi, and just xenophobic right wing parties of Europe that Israel is actually their soul mate.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        July 18, 2012, 8:55 am

        Conversely, it’s begun to dawn on the various quasi-Nazi, semi-Nazi, and just xenophobic right wing parties of Europe that Israel is actually their soul mate.

        Yes, how ironic is that? Neo Nazi’s are condeming anti Semitism and waving Israeli flags at their marches. Pamella Gellar is BFF with Geert Wilders.

        Reality really has been turned on it’s head.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 19, 2012, 2:05 am

        It’s revealing. I don’t find it terribly ironical. In fact, it’s completely logical.

        All one has to do is to realize that ‘the Jew’ is really a category that anyone can fill. So now Muslims are ‘the Jews’ and the Jews are leading the glorious struggle against them

        Let’s picture a young Hitler — born in upper Austria in 1989 and going to Vienna as a young man about…now. What group do you think he would conceive a virulent hatred for?

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 17, 2012, 5:21 pm

      Yeah, seanmcbride, it does appear to me to be a no-brainer. I agree that “Zionism and Americanism are radically incompatible ideologies.” I imagine the Zionists counter with, “Americans never were victimized by The Other of whatever stripe over thousands of years, with the apex of such victimization being the 12 years that the German Nazi regime lasted (I guess, it became the apex due to German power in the world at that time, itself resurrected by sheer German will and talent from the Versailles burden, and combined with with German industrial talent). Thus, the Zionists imply that if Americans were ever subjected to what the Jews were subjected to by foreigners, then, and only then, would their highest (and European Enlightenment-derived) principles and values be tested, and so be worthy to pay attention to. It might be instructive to see how America dealt with Imperial Japan after the war because the Japanese treatment of any Americans they encountered from ’41 thru that part of ’45 where Japan had any control whatsoever, was as brutal as any ever seen by man. Total racist brutality. Did the Americans do to the Japanese what the Jews did to the Palestinians after they forcefully controlled them? Was the American occupation of post-Imperial Japan similar to Israel’s occupation of Palestinians land? Where is Japan today viz-a-viz America, as compared to where the Palestinians are today viz-a-viz Israel? And, oh yeah, the Palestinians have suffered under Jewish Israel as the original natives of the land Israel says it has a right to own and/or control.

      Victimization of the Jews in history involved the simple fact that Jews were not natives in their own land when they were mistreated by the majority of any land–hence the word: diaspora. Given this, it’s hard to see anything other than Zionists want to have their cake and eat it too. What other group of people have ever whined for that?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 5:41 pm

        “Victimization of the Jews in history involved the simple fact that Jews were not natives in their own land when they were mistreated by the majority of any land–hence the word: diaspora.”

        Explain.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 17, 2012, 5:28 pm

      Yes,
      “What is the difference between Jewish nationalists like Benjamin Netanyahu or Jeffrey Goldberg and white nationalists like David Duke and his European counterparts?”

    • ColinWright
      ColinWright
      July 18, 2012, 3:45 pm

      “Does anyone disagree with the proposition that Jewish ethno-religious nationalism is precisely analogous to white Christian ethno-religious nationalism?”

      Yeah. I do. White Christian ethno-religious nationalism, whatever its drawbacks, at least usually has the saving grace of staking a claim to where the White Christian ethno-religious nationalists actually live.

      Hophni doesn’t even care to live in Israel. It’s as if I converted to ‘white Christian ethno-religious nationalism’ — and started doing all I could to make life hell for Turks not in California, but in Germany.

      Or maybe more appropriately, in Bulgaria. After all, I want to choose some place it’s improbable any of my ancestors are actually from.

  5. American
    American
    July 17, 2012, 12:43 pm

    “What is the difference between Jewish nationalists like Benjamin Netanyahu or Jeffrey Goldberg and white nationalists like David Duke and his European counterparts?……Sean

    None?
    But I doubt the Jeffery Goldbergs will ever figure that out.
    I don’t really object to people who want to ‘live seperately’ for some religious or cultural reason…..the problem is when it’s’ hostile and aggressive to others” outside them, imposes on and harms others. The Quakers and some others have managed to live in their own culture and maintain some seperation to a degree without being a threat to or imposition on others.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 17, 2012, 5:37 pm

      Imagine if the Amish, or the Hutterites had nuclear arms, a strong military,and the backing of a lone superpower. You can’t. And it’s not like such groups do not have a history of being persecuted by the majority in any place they were or went. Further, you never seen such Christian sects get really inhumane, like the Orthodox Jews did in Iowa. Do we Gentiles have to put up with them and their conduct, and also with the likes of Sen Joe Lieberman?

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 8:45 pm

        “Imagine if the Amish, or the Hutterites had nuclear arms, a strong military,and the backing of a lone superpower. You can’t. And it’s not like such groups do not have a history of being persecuted by the majority in any place they were or went.”

        Yes, imagine if everybody were quietist and didn’t believe in electricity. The world would a dark place and candlemakers would be rich. Any more red herrings?

        “you never seen such Christian sects get really inhumane, like the Orthodox Jews did in Iowa. ”

        Orthodox Jews in Iowa were “inhumane?” Inhumane to who?

        “Do we Gentiles have to put up with them and their conduct, and also with the likes of Sen Joe Lieberman?’

        Yeah, sorry, Jews in America are here to stay.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        July 18, 2012, 3:11 am

        “Jews in America are here to stay”

        Really? I thought they were all on the verge of fleeing to Israel to avoid the growing anti-Semitic persecution in America.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        July 18, 2012, 8:57 am

        Yeah, sorry, Jews in America are here to stay.

        That’s wonderful, but it kinda reminds the world why Israek is redundant.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 19, 2012, 2:07 am

        “Yeah, sorry, Jews in America are here to stay.”

        I thought Israel was necessary as a refuge. Or was that yesterday?

    • ColinWright
      ColinWright
      July 18, 2012, 3:52 pm

      ” The Quakers and some others have managed to live in their own culture and maintain some seperation to a degree without being a threat to or imposition on others.”

      So too, did — and probably do — many Jews. Thinking back on it, the Strausses across the street always did manage to preserve a distinctly Jewish identity — and when I was over in the old neighborhood I wasn’t surprised to see that their granddaughter looks distinctly, 100% Jewish.

      It never bothered me at all. There was no problem. I literally just never thought about it. So what if Mrs Strauss always had a big housecleaning for Passover? Maybe they all vanished on Saturdays — and I just never noticed. Think that might have happened?

  6. American
    American
    July 17, 2012, 12:46 pm

    “Would any Jewish nationalists here care to explain why some forms of ethnic and religious nationalism are legitimate and others are not? Perhaps hophmi or tokyobk?”

    Don’t hold your breath waiting on that. But if they ever do answer the answer will be ‘it’s different’ for Jews by virture of so on and so forth.

  7. tombishop
    tombishop
    July 17, 2012, 1:38 pm

    Rachel Maddow explains the developing Sheldon Adelson scandal:

    Maddow: Billionaire GOP donor Sheldon Adelson could face prosecution
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/17/maddow-billionaire-gop-donor-sheldon-adelson-could-face-prosecution/

  8. atime forpeace
    atime forpeace
    July 17, 2012, 1:43 pm

    Phil when you ask a question like this one do you expect an honest answer from gentiles like me who have learned so much from reading sites like yours?

    What if an American politician came out for preserving a Christian majority?
    my answer is: Jews would be up in arms screaming at the top of their lungs that another holocaust was coming, and call for new laws to be written to stop it immediately( the call would be obeyed by congress of course) along with the recall and possible incarceration of said politician who would dare do such a thing and anyone else who might have thought that to have been a good idea.

    All coordinated and led meticulously by the lobby…abe and the rest of that crowd that sees in the united states only an army and a power to further their project of a stronger israel and assorted other interests that would keep americans from being free to think or question anything they deem untouchable.

  9. Yitzgood
    Yitzgood
    July 17, 2012, 1:56 pm

    Would any Jewish nationalists here care to explain why some forms of ethnic and religious nationalism are legitimate and others are not?

    I am probably going to regret this, but here goes: Thinking that the alternate to self-determination is persecution or thinking that a certain land is one’s homeland or thinking that an ethnic unit should unite into a political unit is not the same as thinking, for instance, that one’s group is biologically superior to other humans. How’s that?

    • American
      American
      July 17, 2012, 8:02 pm

      “Thinking that the alternate to self-determination is persecution or thinking that a certain….”

      ‘Self determine’ is now my throw up trigger, please quit using it.

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        July 18, 2012, 9:18 pm

        ‘Self determine’ is now my throw up trigger, please quit using it.

        Maybe you should comment on a blog about gardening.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      July 18, 2012, 9:01 am

      Thinking that the alternate to self-determination is persecution or thinking that a certain land is one’s homeland or thinking that an ethnic unit should unite into a political unit is not the same as thinking, for instance, that one’s group is biologically superior to other humans. How’s that?

      Not great. In the case of Isrel, self-determination as Israel sees it means persecution of Palestinians, the homeland they think is actualyl soneone else’s, and they united into a political/ethnic unit as a means of using their ethnicity and moral protection from criticism.

  10. ColinWright
    ColinWright
    July 17, 2012, 2:21 pm

    “What if an American politician came out for preserving a Christian majority?”

    If he did, it would be something of an improvement on the Israeli position.

    First, a Christian majority here in the United States has been in place for something over two centuries — Israel’s Jewish majority is of much more recent provenance.

    Second, one can readily convert to Christianity — in fact, it can get hard to avoid the offers. Judaism, for all practical purposes, is exclusive. When Israeli politicians talk about maintaining a Jewish majority, they are talking about perpetuating the oppression of the Palestinians.

    For the more determinedly censorious, note that I am not interested in defending the concept of a Christian majority in the US. I am merely noting that the concept is actually slightly less noxious than that of maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel.

  11. Fredblogs
    Fredblogs
    July 17, 2012, 2:43 pm

    America is an explicitly secular country. A better comparison would be what if an Islamic country had policies to maintain its Muslim majority. And the answer of course is that most or all of them have such policies, officially or unofficially. Including many with the death penalty for converting from Islam. The result is a collective yawn from the rest of the world.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      July 18, 2012, 9:03 am

      The result is a collective yawn from the rest of the world.

      A yawn that has placed Israel alongside North Korea in the popularity stakes and shot Israel to the number 1 spot in terms of perceived threats to world peace.

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        July 18, 2012, 2:57 pm

        Perceived, but not actual. Prejudice against Jews is common. Prejudice against Israel is no surprise. And I don’t see you condemning the death penalty for converting from Islam any more than the diplomats who bash Israel at the U.N. do.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 19, 2012, 2:16 am

        ‘perceived [threat to world peace] but not actual.’

        Oh, if only it were only perceived. Israel is clearly the greatest threat going. She has an utterly murderous mentality, is chronically aggressive, almost compulsively provocative (witness the Mavi Marmara), and habitually betrays even her closest friends.

        She also has a decidedly apocalyptic mindset, endlessly perceives the only solution to her problems to lie in violent military action, and has a fine, large nuclear arsenal.

        It is as if North Korea possessed the military potency of Russia and was somehow gifted with the persona of Rush Limbaugh — all the while doing all she could to make as many people as possible loathe and resent her.

        Yes, the threat is actual. In fact, I’d define the whole problem as how to make Israel disappear with a whimper rather than a bang.

        …and if you threaten the bang, you’re just demonstrating my point.

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        July 19, 2012, 2:03 pm

        Yes, witness the Mavi Marmara where the principle weapons the soldiers carried were paintball guns and they didn’t start using their side arms until the passengers tried to kill them.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        July 19, 2012, 2:33 pm

        The MM had no weapons. The IDF goons attacked the ship at night and were met with civilian retaliation in the form of clubs and whatever else people could get a hold of.

        The fact that you sympathize with rifle-toting terrorists who killed civilians in international waters is a moot point, but don’t express it here as an actual rebuttal. We’ve heard your cult’s b.s. propaganda and spin about the events of the MM and its WEAK.

        No soldiers died. In fact, some soldiers were protected by civilians on-board. Meanwhile, the IDF executed civilians at point-blanke range.

      • Avi_G.
        Avi_G.
        July 19, 2012, 2:45 pm

        Fredblogs says:
        July 19, 2012 at 2:03 pm

        Yes, witness the Mavi Marmara where the principle weapons the soldiers carried were paintball guns and they didn’t start using their side arms until the passengers tried to kill them.

        Do you ever post anything that is not a lie?

        Autopsy results and an independent commission found that passengers were shot from above, meaning while Israeli pirates were rappelling from helicopters above the ship.

        In addition, it is quite a peculiar line of nonsense that you spew given the fact that the ship was some 75 kilometers into international waters when the Israeli pirates attacked it.

        But since everything is upside down in Zionista world, one shouldn’t be surprised by your fabrication of the truth.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        July 19, 2012, 2:57 pm

        “they didn’t start using their side arms…”

        Liar. The zio pirates fired from the helicopters even before they tried to steal the ship.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 19, 2012, 4:37 pm

        Yes, witness the Mavi Marmara where the principle weapons the soldiers carried were paintball guns

        If “witness” (vs. perpetrators) is the operative word, then here is what the Palmer Inquiry says that they reported:

        At 4.32 a.m., Israeli forces launched the attack without prior warning when several speedboats drew alongside the Mavi Marmara and IDF personnel commenced an attempt to board the vessel. The speedboats were shortly followed by combat helicopters. IDF personnel began firing on the Mavi Marmara from both the speedboats and helicopters before boarding had commenced. This included the use of live fire (including automatic and semi-automatic weapon fire) as well as stun and smoke grenades, paintball guns and rubber bullets. Two passengers were killed by shots from the helicopters before the first soldiers had boarded the vessel. The Captain immediately changed the vessel’s course to the open sea on a bearing of 270º, but Israeli naval frigates approached the vessel from the starboard bow and forced the convoy to turn back towards Israeli waters. Passengers on board the Mavi Marmara panicked and acted in self-defence to prevent the IDF personnel from boarding the vessel. Passengers threw plastic bottles, waste bins and chairs at IDF personnel attempting to board from the speedboats, and physically overpowered the first three soldiers to rappel onto the vessel from the helicopters but no guns or other weapons were used.

        The government of Israel did not challenge the details of the report from the government of Turkey “that the Mavi Marmara, when returned after being held in Ashdod for 66 days, had been scrubbed down thoroughly, blood stains completely washed off, bullet holes painted over, ship records, Captain’s log, computer hardware, ship documents seized, CCTV cameras smashed and all photographic footage withheld.”

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        July 19, 2012, 8:05 pm

        The MM had plenty of hand weapons. The jihadis actually brought tools on board for no other purpose than turning the rails of the ship into improvised clubs, well in advance of their being boarded. They stabbed the soldiers with knives, clubbed them with iron bars, shot one of them twice, and threw another one over a railing to fall 10 ft to the deck below. If none of the soldiers died it was despite the best efforts of the attacking passengers to kill them. Some of the soldiers were in critical condition. The attacking passengers were not peaceful people. As for passengers protecting the soldiers, protecting them from whom exactly? From the attacking passengers.

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        July 19, 2012, 8:13 pm

        Apparently the Palmer Inquiry has never heard of youtube. Where you can listen to the prior warnings the Israelis gave the Mavi Marmara that they were to prepare to be boarded. I realize that the people on here believe some weird things, but do you honestly think the passengers of the MM didn’t know exactly who was boarding them as they tried to run the Israeli blockade? There is video footage of the MM passengers beating soldiers with clubs and stabbing them, so anyone who says “no other weapons were used” is being willfully blind.

      • Roya
        Roya
        July 19, 2012, 9:18 pm

        Where you can listen to the prior warnings the Israelis gave the Mavi Marmara that they were to prepare to be boarded.

        And the flotilla responded, noting that they were in international waters and that Israel had no right to invade the any of the ships. And no, they did not bring weapons onboard the ship aside from kitchen knives (and if you count those then we’re all terrorists in the eyes of Israel). When the passengers saw they were about to be invaded they took apart some metal rods in the ship to use for defense, and the “beating the soldiers up” part was when the passengers tried to disarm the lethally armed soldiers with their makeshift “weapons”. In case you didn’t notice, every single one of the Israeli soldiers was let to go free once disarmed and are alive and well today.
        Press TV did an excellent documentary on the Flotilla Massacre. If anybody is interested, please ignore the rant that Fredblogs will inevitably go off on in response to this post and watch it in two parts here:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfs6UJk98NE

        RIP all nine victims and shame on Erdogan et al for not pursuing harsher sanctions against Israel and shame on Obama et al for doing absolutely nothing as usual.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        July 19, 2012, 9:37 pm

        The jihadis actually brought tools on board for no other purpose than turning the rails of the ship into improvised clubs, well in advance of their being boarded.

        And what tool’s were on board that served no other purpose than turning the rails of the ship into improvised clubs? And wouldn;t it have made more sense to bring propper clubs to begin with? Why not steel piping that they could use, as opposed to canibalizing the ship?

        It doesn’t make any sense does it Fred? You must seriously feel like an idiot right now, and you should.

        They stabbed the soldiers with knives, clubbed them with iron bars, shot one of them twice

        Shot who with what? they had no guns Fred. No a single firearms was turned up by the IDF. No guns appear in any pof those pathetic photos released by teh IDF (with the EXIF date from 2004). Not a ingle bullet wound to any of the IDF pirates.

        If none of the soldiers died it was despite the best efforts of the attacking passengers to kill them.

        Wrong again. Some of the IDF were captured. Some were actualyl treated by the passengers. They could have been killed in an instant if that was the aim.

        Some of the soldiers were in critical condition.

        Wrong again. They made some critically stupid choices and descisions, but not weer critically injured. Just a bunch fo fat, stoned cowards with lethal wepoans shooting passenger in the back of the head.

        The IDF goon were a laughing stock . The veterans forums were rippnig these buffoons apart for their stupidity, lack of skill, lack of intelligence and being overweight.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 19, 2012, 10:20 pm

        but do you honestly think the passengers of the MM didn’t know exactly who was boarding them as they tried to run the Israeli blockade?

        We’ve been here before, you can’t enforce a blockade against a foreign flagged vessel in international waters, five hours sailing time from the official published coordinates. The report says that two passengers had already been shot dead before the Israeli soldiers step foot on the ship. Under those circumstances the passengers would have had the right to defend themselves using necessary, even lethal force.

      • MRW
        MRW
        July 20, 2012, 12:32 am

        Yes, witness the Mavi Marmara where the principle weapons the soldiers carried were paintball guns and they didn’t start using their side arms until the passengers tried to kill them.

        One of the passengers hid a SD chip from her camera in her bra and played it at the UN after the event. Allow me to tell you, you are 100% wrong. International journalists saw what happened. They even saw the American/Turkish kid on his knees with the Israeli soldier two feet behind him pump four bullets into the back of the kid’s head and upper back.

        Fredblogs, you are brain-dead if you think people on this board are (1) going to stand for over-stretching the truth, or (2) treat you with any degree of respect for failing to do a minimum of homework with some of the brains floating around this joint. In future, use g.o.o.g.l.e. And stop insulting the collective intelligence. Max Blumenhtal did a great job covering Mavi Marmara videos and so did former Ambassador Craig Murray.

      • Roya
        Roya
        July 20, 2012, 2:18 am

        Fredblogs, I’ve just seen Shingo’s response to you and realized that you previously claimed that the aid flotilla passengers shot one of the soldiers (twice). I am in shock. What evidence were you going to provide for this? I have seen quite a lot of veiled half-truths and propaganda from you but never such an outright lie. I feel quite insulted that you would openly lie like this and expect us to believe you, and I am starting to believe that you and possibly other zio trolls on this site are on some sort of hasbara payroll and commissioned to post here. You can’t possibly believe that you will ‘convert’ any anti-Zionists here so is this some sort of tryout for Dr. Dershie Hasbara Elite summer camp or something more sinister?

    • ColinWright
      ColinWright
      July 18, 2012, 3:55 pm

      …and when we are inviegeled into installing and upholding such a regime in a Muslim country, protecting it from reform, lavishly funding it, arming it to the teeth, and insisting it has every right to stay exactly as it is, wake me up.

      I’ll stop yawning.

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        July 19, 2012, 2:07 pm

        You mean like our ally Saudi Arabia?

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        July 19, 2012, 2:37 pm

        Saudi Arabia is an Israeli ally and part of the overall strategy the US envisions for the region.

        The kind of reforms that would take place in any surrounding Arab countries would be completely detrimental to Israel since Israel thrives on the misery and destabilization of the surrounding countries.

        Not simply for cultural reasons, but psychologically (as evidenced in your frequent psychosis here as well as hoppy’s incessant hysterics about End Times antisemitism) and economically.

        The implied hypocrisy cuts at both the US and Israeli interests alike since there is a contrived overlap through the machinations of the Lobby, the MIC, etc.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 19, 2012, 4:31 pm

        “Saudi Arabia is an Israeli ally”

        ROTFLMFAO.

        “The kind of reforms that would take place in any surrounding Arab countries would be completely detrimental to Israel since Israel thrives on the misery and destabilization of the surrounding countries.”

        Yes. It’s all Israel’s fault Arab political systems are backward.

        Tell me again how the democracy in Iraq hurts Israel and how a democratic Iran, which would likely be the end of the Mullahs would threaten Israel, and how the dictatorship in Syria which funded Hamas, Hezbollah, and others is beneficial to Israel?

        “End Times antisemitism”

        Huh? Stop the hallucinations!!!

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        July 19, 2012, 4:56 pm

        Cliff, I think Iran is so feared by both US and Israel because it is viewed by the ME masses as a classic high ancient civilization carrying the topical banner of deep Muslim Street irritation at Western power over the ME generally via Saudi Arabia and Arab Gulf state despot cliques and nuclear Israel with its glaring boot on the neck of the Arabs it controls ; Iran in this sense has been the winner of the Arab Spring and fall of Mubarak and Saddam Hussein of Iraq. Iran is most afraid of (1) an Israeli-Palestinian peace and (2) regime change in Assad’s Syria–Iran’s sole persistent ally. It looks like Assad is about to fall. No sign of any I-P peace.

        This interview gives a pretty good view of how Iran and Saudi Arabia view each other, highlighting the conflict of interests between them: http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/21/iran-vs-saudi-arabia/

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        July 19, 2012, 5:09 pm

        Saudi Arabia is an American ally, not an Israeli one. They demonize Israel.

      • Roya
        Roya
        July 19, 2012, 8:57 pm

        If you do not know of the more-than-friendly relations between Riyadh and Tel Aviv then you have got a lot to learn about international politics. A lot.

  12. ColinWright
    ColinWright
    July 17, 2012, 2:45 pm

    “And the truth is that people in US call for maintaining white and Christian majorities all the time in not so many words. What do you think the anti-immigrant sentiment is all about?”

    I find that mildly irritating. I oppose continued immigration because I think that with three hundred million people, the US already has quite enough, that the demographics of the new arrivals are such that even if we sealed the borders now, our population would rise to four hundred million before stabilizing, and because logically, if we don’t stop immigration, people will continue coming here until conditions here are no better than where they came from.

    To not oppose continued immigration is to simply stick one’s head in the sand — to think that somebody in some benighted hole somewhere is going to say, ‘I’m making six thousand dollars a year here and I could make sixty thousand a year in the US — but I should stay here. I would damage the quality of life in the US if I went there.’

    Sure, they’re going to say that. I remember — back in the days when we used to attempt to enforce our immigration laws — some Mexican commenting that ‘the US has the right to try to keep me from coming — but I have the right to try.’

    He was entirely right — and pending the millennium, he will always be right. To those who would argue otherwise — okay, what upper limit would you propose? Presumably, at three billion, you would agree that we have to stop. So what is that line? You’re going to have to draw it — and enforce it. There’s no realistic way around that.

    My opposition to immigration has no racial or cultural component. I find people from New Jersey and Ohio fully as irritating as people from Oaxaca and India. I just don’t want them here — regardless of race, creed, or color.

    The housing tract is full. That I got a house before it filled up in no way imposes on me an obligation to split my house into a duplex so that someone else can move in — nor does my objection have anything to do with the complexion of my prospective house-mate.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 19, 2012, 6:38 pm

      RE: ““And the truth is that people in US call for maintaining white and Christian majorities all the time in not so many words. What do you think the anti-immigrant sentiment is all about?””

      Mmmmm, there’s a lot of anti–illegal immigration abounding here in USA. So you know that’s because most illegals are not white? And/or not Christian? Most illegals are Mexican; they’re all Christians. I wasn’t aware the motivation against illegal immigration was hatred of brown people. How do you know that?

      As for legal immigration–I haven’t hear anybody or any politician call for changing back to the old pre-1965 array of quotas, which favored whites… There is some annoyance at anchor babies and chain migration. I think we should end that; when Ted Kennedy led the change in 1965 (heavily supported by Jewish American Establishment), and some congress folks brought those issues up, the uncontested answer was that was not going to happen, not going to happen, nothing to worry about… And now look. Is open borders a good policy for a country to have?

  13. Krauss
    Krauss
    July 17, 2012, 3:07 pm

    Hophmi is a racist who’s using his minority status to shield it.

    All his arguments are identical to the white-rule South African establishment’s arguments. (Coincidence that Israel was Apartheid South Africa’s best friend and helped it get a nuclear weapon when everyone else tried to block it?)

    This is what entertains me. Oh yes, but it’s different because I’m Jewish! Oh it’s different because this is the Jewish state!

    It’s the Holocaust circular argument. Because we went through the Holocaust, we cannot be racist and we must be exempt from all racial standards. And if you disagree you must be an anti-Semite!

    Nobody buys this hophmi. Nobody. And you look more pathetic by the hour.
    By the way, does ADL pay you for your services or are you a genuine racist on your own?

    • hophmi
      hophmi
      July 17, 2012, 4:46 pm

      “Hophmi is a racist who’s using his minority status to shield it.’

      I don’t think you have a clue what racist means. Where did I suggest that I believe one color of person is better than another?

      “All his arguments are identical to the white-rule South African establishment’s arguments.”

      How so?

      “This is what entertains me. Oh yes, but it’s different because I’m Jewish! Oh it’s different because this is the Jewish state!”

      Not at all. You have it backward. My argument is that it’s NOT different. My argument is that if Christians were in the circumstances Jews are today, they would act exactly the same way. My argument is that there are 5 dozen Christian states and nearly 5 dozen Muslim states, and no one bothers criticizing the foundational basis of any of those, despite the fact that many, if not most, have much bloodier foundational histories. My argument is not that Jews deserve something others do not have, but that Jews deserve something others have many times over.

      “Because we went through the Holocaust, we cannot be racist and we must be exempt from all racial standards. And if you disagree you must be an anti-Semite!”

      Don’t put words in my mouth.

      “Nobody buys this hophmi”

      Actually, a lot of people buy it. But there are definitely many who don’t, mostly because they’re incapable of the empathy required to examine how they would act in a similar situation.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        July 17, 2012, 6:19 pm

        “I don’t think you have a clue what racist means. Where did I suggest that I believe one color of person is better than another?”

        Well, hopper, you got us. Your ultra-strict meaning of the word “racist,” to connotate prejudice based soley on skin tone and not the generally accepted meaning of “prejudice akin to racism” IS quite a quandry.

        “My argument is not that Jews deserve something others do not have, but that Jews deserve something others have many times over. ”

        So because others have inflicted oppression on others in the past, Jews must be permitted (nay, PRAISED!!) for inflicting oppression on Arabs today. Is that right???

        Because the option I would choose is to lament the pain that was inflicted in the past and try to prevent the pain being inflicted now. But that’s just me and my crazy-talk.

        “But there are definitely many who don’t, mostly because they’re incapable of the empathy required to examine how they would act in a similar situation.”

        Well, hop, I guess calling everyone who disagrees with you a sociopath is a tiny bit better than simply saying they’re all Jew haters, as seems to have been your M.O. until now.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 17, 2012, 8:40 pm

        No, because Christians and Muslims have many states in which they are the majority and in the case of Muslims, states where Islam is the official religion, and in the case of Christians in particular, have historically used their majorities to persecute Jews, Jews deserve a state of their own.

        “Because the option I would choose is to lament the pain that was inflicted in the past and try to prevent the pain being inflicted now.”

        Prevention for us is called political sovereignty.

        “Well, hop, I guess calling everyone who disagrees with you a sociopath ”

        No, people are not sociopaths. They’re just intellectually lazy and a little ignorant. Being a white European Christian has historically carried an enormous privilege. That privilege has been used to persecute others and that has major implications today. That is why it is at best unfair, at worst cynical, for people living in states that are more homogeneous than Israel is to harshly criticize its policies. Let’s see how their populaces would react if they were 20 percent Muslim and had to face a daily threat of rockets or suicide bombs. Really, I’m interest to know how they would handle things differently.

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        July 17, 2012, 9:57 pm

        Because others have majority Christian and majority Muslim and majority Hindu countries, the Jews have the right to a majority Jewish country. Funny coincidence how the only people you want to inflict pain on and loss of majority status in their only majority country are the Jews.

      • Roya
        Roya
        July 17, 2012, 10:37 pm

        For goodness sake, Fredblogs, Italy has a Christian majority, India has a Hindu majority, and Iraq has a a Muslim majority by nature; the majority of the indigenous people converted to their respective religions at one time or another, giving those countries an x-majority. Palestine became a Jewish majority artificially, through ethnic cleansing facilitated by terrorism. Cry all you want about what you think the world wants to do to you, but don’t compare apples and oranges.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        July 17, 2012, 10:44 pm

        “Because others have majority Christian and majority Muslim and majority Hindu countries, the Jews have the right to a majority Jewish country. ”

        So the principle is that each religious group has a right to a country wherein the majority of its citizens are members of that group?

        O. K. Since the Baha’is have their main religious centre in Haifa and Western Galilee, they should have a country there. And the Samaritans should have a country in Samaria. Cao Dai would probably be OK with part of Vietnam, but where are we going to put the Raelians?

        Just how do you justifiy this stupid principle?

      • Bumblebye
        Bumblebye
        July 17, 2012, 11:03 pm

        Fredfrog
        Since the Jews are now occupying by force the whole of the former mandate Palestine, and since the non-Jewish population of that tract of land is as great (or possibly more) than the Jewish population, than there can be no ridiculously imagined “right” to a “majority Jewish country”. Since there is a legal ROR for the expelled population, they will have to put up with being a minority, since they did, after all, insist on taking over and not relinquishing all the damn land. Major own goal! Self inflicted “pain on and loss of majority status”. The only way forward is to dismantle the zionist ethno-supremacist institutions of Israel, and to create a constitution that protects the EQUAL rights of all the people. And figures in a way to make some redress for all the harms caused over the past many decades, a surtax on Israeli Jewish wealth maybe. (imagines fred hopping up and down, croaking madly!)

      • mig
        mig
        July 18, 2012, 1:54 am

        hophmi:

        No, because Christians and Muslims have many states in which they are the majority and in the case of Muslims, states where Islam is the official religion, and in the case of Christians in particular, have historically used their majorities to persecute Jews, Jews deserve a state of their own.

        Quickly checked calendar, yup, it’s still year 2012 here. What year you are livin at ?

        No, people are not sociopaths. They’re just intellectually lazy and a little ignorant.

        And results of being “just intellectually lazy and a little ignorant” used to be……? Like persecution of others, lunatic nationalism, religious intolerance……loooong list of things which have followed. And will follow tomorrow.

        Being a white European Christian has historically carried an enormous privilege. That privilege has been used to persecute others and that has major implications today.

        Thats a historical fact. Partly. Not all european christians have done that. There has been other factors in that game.

        That is why it is at best unfair, at worst cynical, for people living in states that are more homogeneous than Israel is to harshly criticize its policies.

        Saying “learn from the history” doesn’t ring any bell ?. Living a life and being stuck in a specific events of history keeps you stuck in history. If you see mistakes that OTHERS have done, you wanna repeat those. Yeah, choose your path by all means. The day you have to pay the bill from your mistakes will come.

        Let’s see how their populaces would react if they were 20 percent Muslim and had to face a daily threat of rockets or suicide bombs. Really, I’m interest to know how they would handle things differently.

        Does that willingness to shoot rockets correlate some events THEY have experienced a´la by Israel somehow ? So who is here today ” just intellectually lazy and a little ignorant”. You don’t need to answer. I know answer to that already. European christians while they persecuted others didn’t see anything wrong in their actions either. Who would you.

      • straightline
        straightline
        July 18, 2012, 2:00 am

        What about the Zoroastrians or the Jains or the Bahais? I think each of them should have a country of their own. And the Taoists? There are at least 20 million of them and no country of their own. And the Sikhs at 30 million but no country of their own. Why not carve out a piece of the US and give it to the Sikhs? In fact, why not Idaho – it’s practically empty? Let’s give the Sikhs Idaho – they can build a Golden Temple in Moscow.

      • mig
        mig
        July 18, 2012, 2:02 am

        Fredblocks:

        Because others have majority Christian and majority Muslim and majority Hindu countries, the Jews have the right to a majority Jewish country.

        I could swear that is written in some international law. No. I couldn’t find it. Help buddy here freddo. What was it.

        Funny coincidence how the only people you want to inflict pain on and loss of majority status in their only majority country are the Jews.

        Can’t help you out. Take a time machine back to year 1947. Plans of palestinian dispossession are in the full swing. Try to fix the wrong decision made by Israel. Good luck.

      • hophmi
        hophmi
        July 18, 2012, 6:52 am

        @mig:

        Quickly looked at a map. What world are you living in?

        People who are intellectually lazy and ignorant tend not to understand the hypocrisy of their position. It’s OK. Fortunately, there is an Israel, and we don’t have to necessarily care about how European hypocrisy affects us.

        I’m not sure what other factors there are in the game to justify historical persecution of Jews and others by European Christians.

        We Zionists have learned well from history. We have learned that minorities in Europe and Arabia get persecuted, and we have endeavored to protect ourselves from that persecution by ensuring some political sovereignty for ourselves. So far it’s worked very well. Europeans don’t persecute us. They just annoy us, and that’s better than having them kill us.

      • mig
        mig
        July 18, 2012, 10:58 am

        hoph:

        Quickly looked at a map. What world are you living in?

        Year 2012 Finland. And ?

        People who are intellectually lazy and ignorant tend not to understand the hypocrisy of their position.

        I try to keep my feet in the ground. If im intellectual or not, i’ll let that to other decide. IMHO not so much.

        Fortunately, there is an Israel, and we don’t have to necessarily care about how European hypocrisy affects us.

        Today or years ago ?

        I’m not sure what other factors there are in the game to justify historical persecution of Jews and others by European Christians.

        Then back to school boy. And i didn’t say nothing any justification.

        We Zionists have learned well from history.

        Which is nothing at all.

        We have learned that minorities in Europe and Arabia get persecuted, and we have endeavored to protect ourselves from that persecution by ensuring some political sovereignty for ourselves.

        And thats why palestinians get same treatment. So if thats it, could you kindly stop “learning”.

        So far it’s worked very well. Europeans don’t persecute us. They just annoy us, and that’s better than having them kill us.

        So you are living in history after all. That wake up call back for today might be hard landing. And you were talking european hypocrisy. Oh dear….

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        July 18, 2012, 3:02 pm

        Israel, the West Bank and Gaza altogether make up about 20% of the former mandate Palestine. The rest is Jordan. Get your facts right.

        There is no possibility of equal rights with the Palestinians. The Palestinians wouldn’t allow it. The only question is will Israel be Jewish with equal rights for its Arab citizens (no right of return), or will it be an Islamic majority state with no rights for Jews (if there is right of return).

      • mig
        mig
        July 18, 2012, 3:39 pm

        Fredblogs:

        Israel, the West Bank and Gaza altogether make up about 20% of the former mandate Palestine. The rest is Jordan. Get your facts right.

        Former. And Jordan (trans) was separated from mandate before it came legally in force. So thats about it. Ancient history.

        There is no possibility of equal rights with the Palestinians.

        Of course not.

        The only question is will Israel be Jewish with equal rights for its Arab citizens (no right of return), or will it be an Islamic majority state with no rights for Jews (if there is right of return).

        40 years and waiting those equal rights for palestinians in Israel. And when you decided that Israel doesn’t follow international law. Just rhetoric question.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 18, 2012, 3:40 pm

        The only question is will Israel be Jewish with equal rights for its Arab citizens (no right of return), or will it be an Islamic majority state with no rights for Jews (if there is right of return).

        The Jewish Knesset members won’t even admit that Christian Knesset members should have freedom to exercise their religion:
        Report: Israeli MK tears up Bible
        http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=505413
        Missionaries in the Knesset?
        http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=277669
        Christian MK calls for legal action against Ben-Ari
        http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=277981

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        July 18, 2012, 3:58 pm

        “Israel, the West Bank and Gaza altogether make up about 20% of the former mandate Palestine. The rest is Jordan”

        False. Transjordan was one of the two administrative regions assigned to the UK in the legal instrument known as “the Mandate for Palestine.” “Mandate Palestine” is a geographical designation for the other; it is now occupied by the zionist entity.

        “There is no possibility of equal rights with the Palestinians. The Palestinians wouldn’t allow it.”

        I guess it wouldn’t be Mondoweiss if Fredo wasn’t spewing anti-Arab bigotry…

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 18, 2012, 4:05 pm

        “Because others have majority Christian and majority Muslim and majority Hindu countries, the Jews have the right to a majority Jewish country…”

        First off, two wrongs don’t make a right. That somebody else steals a car does not give me the right to do it.

        Secondly, plenty of groups do not have their own country — and that doesn’t imply that they get to carve it out. Neither Mormons nor the Amish nor Bretons nor French Huguenots get to hack their own demesne out of someone else’s living flesh.

        Third, virtually none of the countries you mention actually explicitly preserve themselves for members of one group in particular (Saudi Arabia would be about the only one that sinks to the depths of Israel) and in all cases, the ethno-religious complexion is indeed simply what came to be. It is not something that was imposed in the last sixty years and that is continuing to be imposed even as we speak. There is no large community of Christians being expelled from Saudi Arabia in pursuit of a dream of a ‘Muslim homeland.’

      • straightline
        straightline
        July 18, 2012, 4:14 pm

        Not quite sure what you’re saying Fred. When you say “The only question is will Israel …” do you include the West Bank and Gaza or not?

        Otherwise your post appears remarkably Orwellian “All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.”

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        July 18, 2012, 6:42 pm

        @Mig

        They have equal legal rights, they have equal voting rights. They aren’t drafted into the IDF, but they can volunteer if they choose to. To the extent that they don’t have equality, that is the same for Muslim minorities in many European countries where they are poorer and have less spent on them by the government than non-Muslim citizens.

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        July 18, 2012, 6:50 pm

        @Colin Wright
        You mean Utah isn’t a separate country? Will you tell them or shall I? Kidding aside, the Mormons are a Christian sect in a Christian country. As are the Amish. Do the Bretons (not sure what their predominant religion is) even want a country? Or the French Huguenots?

        The Kurds want a country, and I’ll bet many of the people here opposed to the existence of Israel support the Kurds.

        There is no large community of Christians being expelled from Saudi Arabia because any Christians who lived there have long since been expelled, converted, or murdered. Once all the Palestinians are expelled from the parts of Jerusalem and the West Bank that the Israeli settlers want, there won’t be a community of Palestinians being expelled from Israel either.

        Your argument is the same as “the rich and the poor alike are forbidden to sleep under bridges”.

      • Roya
        Roya
        July 18, 2012, 11:59 pm

        The Kurds want a country, and I’ll bet many of the people here opposed to the existence of Israel support the Kurds.

        Let’s see, forming a Kurdish state would involve readjusting the boundaries of a few states in order to create de jure a state that already exists de facto, while forming the Jewish state involved and continues to involve artificially maintaining demographics through ethnic cleansing and terrorism.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 19, 2012, 1:22 am

        I’m sorry. Arguing with Zionists just gets too dull sometimes.

        For a modest fee, though, I’ll be happy to rip your post apart.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 19, 2012, 1:24 am

        “…People who are intellectually lazy and ignorant tend not to understand the hypocrisy of their position. It’s OK. Fortunately, there is an Israel…”

        LOL!

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 19, 2012, 1:26 am

        “…People who are intellectually lazy and ignorant tend not to understand the hypocrisy of their position. It’s OK. Fortunately, there is an Israel…”

        For those who are intellectually lazy, ignorant, and don’t understand the hypocrisy of their position?

      • mig
        mig
        July 19, 2012, 1:28 am

        Fredblogs:

        They have equal legal rights, they have equal voting rights. They aren’t drafted into the IDF, but they can volunteer if they choose to. To the extent that they don’t have equality, that is the same for Muslim minorities in many European countries where they are poorer and have less spent on them by the government than non-Muslim citizens.

        Same ol’ hasbara. But you won’t dare to read this site :

        http://www.acri.org.il/en/?cat=37

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        July 19, 2012, 1:32 pm

        I took a look, anything in particular you want me to look at? There is individual racism in a lot of countries, the best a country can do is give equal legal rights. In France, a disproportionate number of Arabs/Muslims live in slums and have lousy economic prospects, but I don’t see you complaining about France. In America, blacks are disproportionately likely to be poor and/or in jail, but guess what, they have equal rights legally here.

        Israel uses proportional representation so the Arabs are represented in the Knesset and have been in every Knesset since the first. If they choose not to vote in proportion to their numbers in the population that is their fault. They are better represented in the Knesset than blacks are in the Senate (13% of population 1% of the Senators).

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        July 19, 2012, 7:37 pm

        “Fortunately, there is an Israel, and we don’t have to necessarily care about how European hypocrisy affects us.”

        “We”? “Us”?

        I thought you were an American, not an Israeli.

      • Hostage
        Hostage
        July 19, 2012, 8:12 pm

        Israel uses proportional representation so the Arabs are represented in the Knesset and have been in every Knesset since the first.

        What a blowhard. The bulk of the Arab citizens were driven into exile first. The Jewish Agency and Vaad Leumi granted themselves all executive, legislative and judicial powers before any elections were ever held and they have refused to allow the Arab voters to return to their homes.

        The Jewish regime adopted discriminatory laws from the get-go that delegated essential state functions to parastal agencies, like the JNF and WZO, in which Arabs have no vote or say at all. The Israel Land Administration that controls national planning has a number of seats reserved for the representatives of the Jewish National Fund. No seats are reserved for other ethnic groups. The bulk of the JNF’s lands were stolen from Palestinians, e.g. see With all due respect for the ‘blue box’ http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/with-all-due-respect-for-the-blue-box-1.221682

        I’ve posted a list of some of the laws and military orders that discriminate against so-called Israeli Arabs or Palestinians before. Here it is again:
        “Equality” is not entrenched as a fundamental human right in any Basic Law. Discrimination is permitted without limitation against persons on the basis of “Nationality” (in lieu of race, citizenship, or religion). See Articles 8 & 10 of the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty (1992) as amended (1994) for complete details. The discriminatory statutes include, but are not limited to the following: Law of Return (1950); Nationality Law (1952); Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (2003) Temporary Order 5763 (2003) extended to present; Absentee Property Law (1950); Status Law of Israel (1952); Basic Law: Israel Lands (1960); Land Acquisition Law (1953) as amended (2010); Planning and Construction Law (1965); Law on Agricultural Settlement (1967); Israel Lands Authority Law (2009).

        In the Occupied Territories military orders have been used to establish an administrative regime. In the 2004 Wall case the International Court of Justice determined that the regime was illegal. Some of the relevant orders are:
        *Orders Nº 29 (1967) and Nº 378 (1970) establish procedures to detain and prosecute Palestinians;
        *Military Orders Nº 561 (1974), Nº 783 (1979), Nº 892 (1980), and Nº 981 (1982) establish an entirely separate legal system for Israeli settlers;
        *Military Orders Nº 107 (1967), Nº 50 (1967), Nº 101 (1967), and Amendment Orders Nº 1079 and 1423 impose a system of military censorship, and set severe limits on freedom of speech and public assemblies by Palestinians;
        *Military Orders Nº 58 (1967), Order Nº 59 (1967), Nº 291 (1968), Nº 1060 (1983) grant Israeli Military Authorities custody, control, and dispute resolution authority concerning state and private property, land, and water; and the right to confiscate private property without compensation.
        *Special Military Order Nº 224 (1967) restores the mandate era “Emergency Regulations” (1945); Military Order Nº 92 (1967) concerns provision and control of water; Military Order Nº 5 concerns closure of the West Bank; Military Order Nº 537 (1974) concerning powers of the Area Commander to set municipal boundaries; direct municipal services and planning; and the power to dismiss democratically-elected officials; Military Order Nº 297 establishes a pass system that restricts freedom of movement.

      • eljay
        eljay
        July 19, 2012, 9:09 pm

        >> Just how do you justifiy this stupid principle?

        That’s easy: He justifies it by being a stupid (and hateful and immoral) Zio-supremacist.

      • yesspam
        yesspam
        July 18, 2012, 4:21 pm

        When religious Jews were in power they carried out forced conversion and massacres. Check out the Maccabees.

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        July 18, 2012, 6:35 pm

        The Maccabees rebelled against being forcibly converted to worshiping the Greek gods. Any forced conversions they may have done later are not part of the current Jewish tradition and haven’t been for thousands of years.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 19, 2012, 1:21 am

        Sadly for the Palestinians. They aren’t to be converted: they are to disappear.

      • ColinWright
        ColinWright
        July 19, 2012, 2:19 am

        As with Fredblogs latest, all this could easily be torn apart — but it’s just too dull.

        If you have money, I’ll think of it as work and rip it all up for you though. Say $20 for each post of yours I respond to?

    • Chu
      Chu
      July 17, 2012, 8:54 pm

      He’s a fanatic Krauss, rules do not apply in the realm of your common fanatic; only zealous beliefs. They’re like untamed dogs that forgot how to listen and only bark when they hear noises in the distance. No discipline.

  14. Inanna
    Inanna
    July 17, 2012, 10:48 pm

    Hypocrisy is a universal value, Phil.

  15. HRK
    HRK
    July 18, 2012, 12:20 am

    At one time I indicated that the state of Israel shouldn’t be a Jewish state; it should be a state of all of its citizens.

    I’ve been thinking about that notion a little, and (though I know I won’t be popular for saying this in this forum), I think I’ve changed my mind.

    I really don’t care if a state is labelled a Jewish state (or a Christian state or a Muslim state) so long as it treats its citizens as equals.

    One of the counterobjects: Minorities can’t be equal if for no other reason that the state is identified with a religion to which they don’t belong.

    I think this is an overly-precise objection. Yes, technically, it’s true. But why sweat the details? If I go to Saudi Arabia to live and the majority of people there want to call it Muslim, but they nevertheless allow me to worship freely, to evangelize openly (as long as I’m not being seriously pesky), to serve in any capacity (other than as a figurehead king)–why should I care?

    Heck, I’d even join in with the festivities. Go king! –What a great guy! (Or whatever one says to benevolent kings at extravagant, over-the-top birthday celebrations–I realize I’m not being very creative here–never been to one myself.)

    As far as the “demographic problem”: If there’s minimal animus between groups, demographics really don’t matter. If there’s more than minimal animus, I do think changes in demographics can cause problems. Seems obvious to me.

    I have no idea what one does about that, though, by the way, but I’d hope that in this day and age of overpopulation both competing groups stay at zero population growth. I can’t see really taking any action against population growth for one group. Constantly talking about “them” having too many kids isn’t very neighborly. (Although perhaps if a state tried to control the population of all its citizens–that might be better. But how without coercion? Don’t know. Serious sex ed? But what if one group had objections to that? Back to square one.)

    Leftism is a secular religion; their “inspiring narrative” (and, as one well-known Jewish man once observed: “Man does not live by bread alone”) is a worldly utopia ushered in by absolute equality.

    Hence, the idea that there might be genuine conflicts of interests between groups which can’t be easily resolved by referencing “the law” or (even better) “international law” must be swept under the rug.

    (However, let me hasten to admit that, from a practical standpoint, the left’s approach to conflict management–to get the dominant side to sacrifice–often works very well. –And I mean that sincerely. So odd . . . that zany, artsy, otherworldly leftists come up with ideas which, practically speaking, often–though not always–work very well.)

    I’d like to see Israel remain a state with a majority Jewish population (regardless of its status as a “Jewish state”). But I’d also like to see the Arabs there treated better. And I’d hope that within the borders of Israel one side doesn’t increase in population faster than the other.

    Also, if Israel’s going to call itself a Jewish state, can’t it at least have some nobility that lead wild and debauched lives? (Much more interesting than Netanyahu with his conservative suit and combover.)

    Okay, I now submit myself to be pummeled! (I’m already saying, “Ouch!” to myself!)

    • ColinWright
      ColinWright
      July 19, 2012, 2:31 am

      The primary difficulty with your proposal is that if you look at the actual state of affairs in Israel, the attitudes toward Arabs that Jews openly express in both polls and in their behavior, and for their part, the accumulated resentment that sixty years of truly vicious oppression and dispossession has built up in Arabs towards Jews, you’d realize that there’s no hope whatsoever.

      However, feel free to try to implement a state where all Arabs whom Israel rules have the vote, where all Arabs genuinely enjoy the protection of the laws, and where such things as building permits and water and the right to citizenship are dispensed impartially. Arabs are in the army, commanding Jewish demonstrators to disperse.

      At best, all that will happen will be that Jews will start to leave, and there will shortly be a Muslim majority state which — the state being a genuine democracy — the majority will promptly rename ‘Palestine.’

      But have a go. I’m willing to be proven wrong. It’s my position that a Jewish state in Palestine can only exist as what it is — a sickening and continuous display of oppression, terror, and discrimination. There is no ‘nice Israel’ out there. Perhaps there might once have been — but that moment’s long past.

  16. optimax
    optimax
    July 18, 2012, 1:27 am

    The rostrum at white majority rallies are always festooned with pictures of Hilter, limiting their audience to those the average white wouldn’t associate with unless incarcerated.

  17. Nevada Ned
    Nevada Ned
    July 18, 2012, 3:27 am

    Israeli politicians are blowing their stacks about the “demographic threat” posed by non-Jews.
    But MondoWeiss readers ought to take a look at an article from the NYT in May, discussing the fact that the majority of births in the US is now to non-whites (black, hispanic, asian…).
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/us/whites-account-for-under-half-of-births-in-us.html?pagewanted=all
    So in a matter of a few decades, the majority of the US will be non-white.
    Already, four US states are “majority-minority” (Hawaii, California, New Mexico, Texas), and so are 13 of the top 40 metropolitan areas.

    A few years ago, some conservative Harvard professor (I forget who) predicted that this demographic transition will have profound cultural consequences for the US.
    I say *baloney*. Diversity is a strength, not a weakness. And what will happen if the country’s demographics make an appeal to traditional white racism a political losing strategy? That will be good news.

    • Nevada Ned
      Nevada Ned
      July 18, 2012, 4:02 am

      The book was The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order, by Samuel P. Huntington, published in 1996.

  18. RoHa
    RoHa
    July 18, 2012, 3:47 am

    “some conservative Harvard professor (I forget who) predicted that this demographic transition will have profound cultural consequences for the US.”

    Only if he assumes (or shows) that the other races have different cultures from the whites. “Race” is genetic, but culture is learned.

    “I say *baloney*. Diversity is a strength, not a weakness. ”

    If you mean “cultural diversity”, and if the changing demographic will increase cultural diversity, then the professor was right. That increase is a cultural consequence.

    Whether it will be a good consequence (if it happens) or a bad one (or a bit of both) depends, in part, on whether cultural diversity really is a strength or a weakness. No-one has ever provided me with a good argument that it is a strength, but I’m not wholly convinced by my own Confucian arguments that it is a weakness.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 19, 2012, 9:43 pm

      “No-one has ever provided me with a good argument that it is a strength”

      Oh please, do you have any idea how much America’s music will improve? Not that all those cultures haven’t given it a big shot in the arm every generation or so in one way or another for two hundred years. But more could never hurt.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        July 20, 2012, 12:25 am

        “do you have any idea how much America’s music will improve?”

        Only if they make it part of the common culture, rather than keeping it separate and “diverse”.

  19. Citizen
    Citizen
    July 18, 2012, 7:02 am

    Not too related, but for a laugh: As Christians United 4 Israel” (CUFI) held their convention in Washington, Israeli MK Michael Ben-Ari publicly tore up & threw in the trash can a copy of the New Testament, saying it was “abominable.” From Haaretz, who now requires you to pay to read whole articles. Somebody should show him doing that to neoStepFord Wife Michelle Bachmann, and film her reaction. Now that would be REALLY funny!

  20. ColinWright
    ColinWright
    July 18, 2012, 4:14 pm

    “…Somebody should show him doing that to neoStepFord Wife Michelle Bachmann, and film her reaction. Now that would be REALLY funny!”

    I imagine she’d rationalize it. You don’t think these people are actually Christians, do you?

    Culturally, I am Christian. However, the faith really exasperates me. The demands are so utterly impractical that almost no one actually practices it. The result is complete hypocrisy, as all and sundry use their ‘Christianity’ as a cloak to pursue other goals entirely.

    There’s an Alabama ‘Christian’ I sometimes have a passage of arms with. So, he’s a Christian — and that means that he gives away all he has and follows Christ? No…

    Well, then, you do turn the other cheek? No…

    So what do you do? Go to church every Sunday and feel superior to others on that account, apparently.

  21. Yitzgood
    Yitzgood
    July 20, 2012, 12:32 am

    the homeland they think is actualyl soneone else’s

    It isn’t even the homeland to Israeli Jews who were born there? Anyway, you aren’t really answering what I wrote. If I say “A, B, and C are not the same as ‘some forms of nationalism,'” you can’t just argue with A, B, and C.

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