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Ohio State Hillel member calls Desmond Tutu a ‘neo Nazi’ for criticizing Israel

Israel/Palestine
on 121 Comments

Monday morning, a student member of the Ohio State University Hillel Center made racist references to Desmond Tutu, a leader and veteran of the South African struggle against apartheid, as a “neo Nazi.” The individual made the post in an argument about Israeli apartheid on the Facebook event page of the Annual Israel Festival, which the group describes as a week meant “to celebrate Israel with free food, music, games, giveaways, and more!” The comment was in response to a video of Tutu describing the Israeli oppression of Palestinians as apartheid. A screen-cap of the exchange is below:

tutuneonazi2

When I asked organizers from the Hillel Center to rebuke the ignorant comment, OSU Hillel organizers instead deleted all traces of the comment.

response

Although I recognize the ideological and political differences between OSU Hillel and myself, I do not believe that an organization that claims to support diversity and equality will stand by such a statement when it is made public. I sincerely hope that publishing this story will encourage OSU Hillel to speak out against the racism expressed by one of its student members.

Tim Joseph
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121 Responses

  1. chuckcarlos
    chuckcarlos
    March 25, 2014, 1:13 pm

    Tutu is obviously a “self hating jew”

    • The JillyBeans
      The JillyBeans
      March 25, 2014, 3:09 pm

      I’ve always been humored by the “self hating (insert ethnicity here)” term. It’s such a cop-out to the speaker for willing to be a denialist and not be self critical. I consider being self-critical important to moving forward.

      • chuckcarlos
        chuckcarlos
        March 25, 2014, 9:36 pm

        actually the whole thing by these bozos at the ADL and Simon Wiesenthal Center have been rather amusing…

        besides the “self hating jew” retardo number these bozos actually called Hajo Meyer a “holocaust denier”…

        not only was the guy a Physicist of some note but ran the research at Philips in the Netherlands…but was IN Auschwitz…very bright guy was/is Hajo Meyer

        and then Norman Finkelstein was also a “holocaust denier”…

        like these nutcases have absolutely no concept of the TRUTH but only Joe Goebbels propaganda numbers…and if that ain’t humorous…I don’t know what is….

        ADL and Simon Wiesenthal Center actually are not better than Joe Goebbels..

        even Mel Brooks couldn’t make this shit up…

        besides the Muslims it was also the Japanese American Citizens League who stood up for free speech and Hajo Meyer

        you can’t make this shit up

    • March 26, 2014, 1:18 am

      thanks misha, the “self paranoid zio-psychotic”!
      your comment of desmond tutu cannot in any way shape or form be understood as being anything else than a new psychiatric diagnosis that i’ve just coined” paranoid zio-psychotic”(the irrationality of someone who calls another a jew-hater or anti-semetic for rationally and quite logically criticizing israel).
      but then again, misha here might very well know that israel is indeed guilty as accused by tutu but in a show of typical zionistic deception might just nevertheless choose to call him jew-hater to dissuade all the stupid brainwashed american idiots from the truth and keep them all dumbed up, which is actually a fairlysimplething to do

  2. seafoid
    seafoid
    March 25, 2014, 1:15 pm

    The last word the last living zealot at Masada uttered to the Centurions was, apparently, “Nazi”.

  3. Tzombo
    Tzombo
    March 25, 2014, 1:18 pm

    ‘most Africans are pro-Israel, at least when presented with the right facts’

    Not the facts, mind you. The RIGHT FACTS. Don’t present them with the wrong facts, god forbid.

    • pjdude
      pjdude
      March 25, 2014, 3:07 pm

      That right there is about as good as admitting your not making a fact based argument

    • oneof5
      oneof5
      March 25, 2014, 3:07 pm

      Tzombo,

      Good catch … ;-)

      The Ziobots condemn themselves straight out of their own mouths … without even knowing it.

      • bilal a
        bilal a
        March 25, 2014, 11:29 pm

        in Hollywood, there are genocidal neo nazis everywhere

        “What you see in yourself is what you see in the world.”
        afghan proverb

    • Eva Smagacz
      Eva Smagacz
      March 25, 2014, 3:32 pm

      Tzombo, this is priceless

    • kalithea
      kalithea
      March 26, 2014, 1:15 am

      Zionists want everyone to believe the naked emperor has clothes. Do Africans not have eyes to see and judge for themselves? Zionists would rather insist their lying eyes deceive them?

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      March 26, 2014, 4:38 am

      @Tzombo
      Precisely. I guess this writer has not been presented with the right facts: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/03/25/bad-to-the-bone-a-brief-history-of-ethnic-cleansing-in-palestine/

    • eGuard
      eGuard
      March 26, 2014, 5:02 am

      And remember that those “Right Facts” include the “Extreme Right” facts.

    • eGuard
      eGuard
      March 26, 2014, 5:09 am

      From that same post: [Africans are pro Israel]. However are nazis there too who hate Jews (that is, between Africans).

      Yes, if you aren’t “pro Israel”, that’s the alternative. (But help me: is the racist writer saying that there exist nazis that do not hate Jews?)

      • Karl Dubhe
        Karl Dubhe
        March 26, 2014, 10:23 pm

        I once met a white supremacist whose chapter included a gay rights clause; he led the thing, was gay, we didn’t talk about anything until the next day. Then I never spoke to him again.

        I would say that there is at least one group of Nazis who don’t hate Jews, after all they’re crazy to begin with so why not go for the whole nine yards of nuttyness? Moreover, if they don’t have enough of Jewish people in their area, why would they not focus their hate and scapegoating on another minority? (or majority for that matter) There is a wide range of humans in the world, I think most of us are nuts in one way or another. The best of us end up not harming others.

  4. The JillyBeans
    The JillyBeans
    March 25, 2014, 1:29 pm

    “…….most africans are pro Israel, at least when presented with the right facts.”

    And what are the “wrong” facts? Are those the ones perhaps that show a state that has a deeply racist and calls it’s African refugees derogatory names and wants to kill all Arabs?

    “Right facts” is essentially propaganda. Not the whole truth.

    I’m ashamed for this Misha Berkovich, who is clearly too dim to be ashamed for himself.

    • ritzl
      ritzl
      March 25, 2014, 3:44 pm

      But JillyBeans, the only reason that that state wants to kill all Arabs is because “All Arabs Want to Kill All Jews.” It’s just a normal human response. What’s the issue, eh?

      That would be a “right fact.”

      #Do I need to say it? ;)

      • The JillyBeans
        The JillyBeans
        March 25, 2014, 4:07 pm

        Must Arabs I know just roll their eyes. Is rolling eyes lethal? :O

      • traintosiberia
        traintosiberia
        March 25, 2014, 11:24 pm

        Tutu was disinvited from speaking in one of the colleges in Minnesota after pressure had been put on the committee by the local Jewish community .
        American Psychiatric Association was facing a similar problem of revoking the invitation 2 -3 yrs ago ,though eventually it honored its responsibility and invited him to be the keynote speaker.
        The tentacles of the Zionist have infiltrated every nook and corner of US . Twitter is another victim .

      • traintosiberia
        traintosiberia
        March 25, 2014, 11:27 pm

        Will you blame them?

        “Plan to transfer Arab-Israelis to new Palestinian state seeks legal approval
        Israel’s hardline foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman who suggested the controversial idea is seeking secret legal advice”
        Guardian ( UK ). 24 th March 2014

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      March 26, 2014, 4:40 am

      @ The JillyBeans

      I bet “the wrong facts” for Misha Berkovich are presented here: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/03/25/bad-to-the-bone-a-brief-history-of-ethnic-cleansing-in-palestine/

  5. Woody Tanaka
    Woody Tanaka
    March 25, 2014, 1:36 pm

    Yes, this is what support for the Israelis is reduced to: libel and slander of one of the great heroes for civil rights, equality and humanity of this or any other time, simply because he has the nerve — the absolute gall — to suggest that Palestinians have human rights and a right to human dignity, even when those who are working to strip those rights and that dignity are Jewish.

    What is most appalling is the notion expressed here that because Jews fought for civil rights for blacks that somehow Tutu is obligated to acquiesce when Israel oppresses Palestinians.

  6. amigo
    amigo
    March 25, 2014, 1:50 pm

    These people are verifiably insane.

    They know their private nirvana is crashing down all around them.

    Their pain is my pleasure.

    • pabelmont
      pabelmont
      March 25, 2014, 4:43 pm

      Don’t think most of them know it. I rather fear what will happen, what Masada-like explosion (hope not involving nukes, but nukes in the hands of terrorists is not a good idea, as many people say — without thinking it through) — I rather fear what explosion will happen if-and-when the majority of zios do in fact learn that things are going badly (and even a small defeat, like the end of the settlements, or even of some of the settlements, might seem like “doing badly). These people have been raised on a dream of omnipotence, they see themselvews as invincible supermen, AS OF RIGHT (God’s promises), and it’ll be a mess when it ends, as it must, because their atrocities are accelerating to the point that even the brain-dead Europeans with their holocaust-guilt and their bought-and-paid-for oligarchic governments will no longer be able to ignore.

      • amigo
        amigo
        March 25, 2014, 5:59 pm

        Pabelmont, I only wish the end of Zionism and the Occupation.

        If that hurts Zionists deeply then ok by me.They have earned a far worse punishment than they will receive.

        And yes, if only Europes Politicians would do something concrete instead of paying lip service we might get somewhere.

  7. Jackdaw
    Jackdaw
    March 25, 2014, 2:01 pm

    Good one Tim.

    It clear that you’re spending your time wisely.

  8. JeffB
    JeffB
    March 25, 2014, 2:06 pm

    First off if you don’t like your heroes being insulted then maybe you get some idea about why Jews find BDS (which Tutu advocates) offensive. The people that Tutu attacks are just as precious to the Jews as Tutu is to the South Africans and worldwide human rights activists. So let’s look at the record:

    In 1987 he advocated terrorism against the domestic Jewish population of South Africa as retaliation for Israel’s pro-government position. He 1989 he advocated for American Blacks to take revenge on American Jews to put pressure on Israel. He’s advocated a total ban on South African trade with Israel and has frequently urged organizations to support a total ban. He’s frequently argued that because of Jewish history Jews are especially obligated not to live like other people and should be judged by a much higher moral standard. He’s made crude statements about gas chambers relative to South African apartheid rejecting the comparison as unfair to his people. He’s on several occasions attacked jews for being “unchristian” by which me means immoral. The very use of that conflation is outright anti-Semetic. He’s led a prayer service for Nazis and been an advocate for the Grand Mufti (a 1930s Palestinian who engineered a Palestinian / Nazi alliance). Durban, South Africa he was an advocate for upping the anti-Jewish hostility.

    There are hundreds of incidents where Tutu’s attacks on Israel / Zionism have been mean spirited and hateful over the last quarter century and as a result there are now plenty of Jews who genuinely dislike him and think badly of him. I certainly think it is fair to say that if Tutu and not Mandela had been the first president of South Africa, South Africa today wouldn’t have a Jewish population. Even with Mandela the Jewish population has fled the rural areas to the cities and the non-religious have mostly left the country for Australia and Israel. Certainly Tutu for all his talk of the wrongs of ethnic cleansing doesn’t seem to object to it much int he country in which he does have real power.

    I wouldn’t call him a neo-Nazi but he certainly traffics pretty freely in anti-Semetism as does the current government of South Africa. I think the most likely is merely a Pro-Palestinian activist who has accidentally crossed the line into outright anti-Semetic speech during his tenure. He’s mostly indifferent to the welfare of his Jewish population but only hostile when it comes to Israel. If he were the human rights activist you would think in the cases where he has said things that have caused an uproar he’d back off and make amends which he’s consistently refused to do.

    So the opinion that he’s an outright anti-Semite unworthy of any praise isn’t unusual in the Jewish community. I think Hillel took a reasonable step in allowing Misha to rethink his comment before coming down squarely on the “Tutu is a Neo-Nazi” comment. But I certainly think between the two of them the adult with decades of political experience is the one I’d hold to a higher standard regarding rhetoric than the college kid. If you are going to attack Misha for his rhetoric and not Tutu you are most certainly applying a double standard.

    • Ecru
      Ecru
      March 25, 2014, 2:41 pm

      @ JeffB

      You make an awful lot of accusations there – got any links to back them up?

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        March 26, 2014, 4:49 am

        @ JeffB
        Links to support your sweeping generalizations?

    • Woody Tanaka
      Woody Tanaka
      March 25, 2014, 2:49 pm

      “First off if you don’t like your heroes being insulted then maybe you get some idea about why Jews find BDS (which Tutu advocates) offensive. The people that Tutu attacks are just as precious to the Jews as Tutu is to the South Africans”

      This is complete gibberish. BDS is in place because of what the Israelis do, not who they are. It’s a libel to claim otherwise.

      “In 1987 he advocated terrorism against the domestic Jewish population of South Africa as retaliation for Israel’s pro-government position. He 1989 he advocated for American Blacks to take revenge on American Jews to put pressure on Israel. He’s advocated a total ban on South African trade with Israel and has frequently urged organizations to support a total ban. He’s frequently argued that because of Jewish history Jews are especially obligated not to live like other people and should be judged by a much higher moral standard. He’s made crude statements about gas chambers relative to South African apartheid rejecting the comparison as unfair to his people. He’s on several occasions attacked jews for being ‘unchristian’ by which me means immoral. The very use of that conflation is outright anti-Semetic. He’s led a prayer service for Nazis and been an advocate for the Grand Mufti (a 1930s Palestinian who engineered a Palestinian / Nazi alliance). Durban, South Africa he was an advocate for upping the anti-Jewish hostility.”

      You know what? I’ve seen you zionists repeat these same slurs, slanders and lies over and over and over again against Reverand Tutu. Repeatedly you people slander this great man. So JeffB, go ahead and support each and every claim you made with primary sources — none of this linking to other zios making the same statements. Otherwise, we’ll know you’re the liar we think you are.

      • LeaNder
        LeaNder
        March 26, 2014, 10:50 am

        In 1987 he advocated terrorism against the domestic Jewish population of South Africa as retaliation for Israel’s pro-government position.

        I somewhat doubt that this would have escaped “the Dersh’s” research students: Bishop Tutu Is No Saint When it Comes To Jews You never get any sources in these type of campaigns, so I would imagine it makes no sense to look for it.

        Neither would it have escaped the specific Wikipedia task force for the relevant time phase: wiki link

        Looks like a libel campaign of the usual type and from the usual suspects. Wiki link section Israel – Palestine I vaguely remember that “the Dersh”s” article was dutifully forwarded by the list on Antisemitism at the time. But as far as I remember it was ignored.

    • seafoid
      seafoid
      March 25, 2014, 3:02 pm

      Zionism is immoral. Tutu is right.

    • Don
      Don
      March 25, 2014, 3:10 pm

      You may be right, JeffB, but would it be to much to ask for some credible evidence of your charges, please. And no, Alan Dershowitz does not count as such.
      http://www.frontpagemag.com/2010/alan-m-dershowitz/tutu-and-the-jews/2/

      1. In 1987 he advocated terrorism against the domestic Jewish population of South Africa
      2. He 1989 he advocated for American Blacks to take revenge on American Jews
      3. He’s made crude statements about gas chambers
      4. I certainly think it is fair to say that if Tutu and not Mandela had been the first president of South Africa, South Africa today wouldn’t have a Jewish population
      5. He’s led a prayer service for Nazis

      • adele
        adele
        March 25, 2014, 3:57 pm

        Don,
        with regards to #5, I believe that JeffB is referring to a pray service that Tutu delivered at Yad Vashem. So, yes, Tutu did lead a pray service (fact) but how the Zionists interpreted it is where fact becomes hyperbole. I found a reference to this pray service on wikipedia, and everyone can judge for themselves whether or not Tutu was leading a prayer service for the Nazis in the way that the Zionists interpreted it.

        What JeffB does not take into consideration when making these libelous assertions is that this is the same man who was instrumental in bringing about the Truth and Reconciliation Committee so that South Africa can begin the post-apartheid road to healing as a nation. Desmond Tutu’s message has always been one of forgiveness. But all of a sudden, Tutu, an internationally beloved and esteemed figure is transformed by the Zionists as Israel’s mortal enemy because he dared to preach forgiveness, or more likely because Tutu also advocates on behalf of the oppressed Palestinians.

        TUTU’S PRAYER SERVICE at YAD VASHEM:
        Tutu preached a message of forgiveness during a 1989 trip to Israel’s Yad Vashem museum, saying “Our Lord would say that in the end the positive thing that can come is the spirit of forgiving, not forgetting, but the spirit of saying: God, this happened to us. We pray for those who made it happen, help us to forgive them and help us so that we in our turn will not make others suffer.” Some found this statement offensive, with Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center calling it “a gratuitous insult to Jews and victims of Nazism everywhere.” Tutu was subjected to racial slurs during this visit to Israel, with vandals writing “Black Nazi pig” on the walls of the St. George’s Cathedral in East Jerusalem, where he was staying.
        (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Tutu)

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        March 25, 2014, 5:05 pm

        And no, Alan Dershowitz does not count as such.

        Actually even Dershowitz has never made the accusations JeffB just made up.

        Don’t expect JeffB to provide any sources. He’s a Hasbara coward.

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        March 25, 2014, 10:36 pm

        @Don

        1. In 1987 he advocated terrorism against the domestic Jewish population of South Africa
        2. He 1989 he advocated for American Blacks to take revenge on American Jews
        3. He’s made crude statements about gas chambers
        4. I certainly think it is fair to say that if Tutu and not Mandela had been the first president of South Africa, South Africa today wouldn’t have a Jewish population
        5. He’s led a prayer service for Nazis

        Examples:

        1) I can only find online references to this from Zionist sources.

        2) “One way to strengthen black-Jewish ties in this country is to help the cause of blacks in south Africa… Black-Jewish relations in this country [the United States], will suffer until Israel “categorically repudiates” its ties with the South African government…. We blacks cannot understand how people with your kind of history (can) allow the government of Israel, as distinct from its people, to have the kind of relationship it does with South Africa”.
        http://pdfs.jta.org/1989/1989-02-01_021.pdf

        3) http://books.google.com/books?id=d3P9AAItwS0C&pg=PA212&lpg=PA212&dq=tutu+gas+chambers&source=bl&ots=gcR-dlYDax&sig=SsFfO-unWu1eqE5bfWdjOSQxOh4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1TsyU6nUB7PF0AG29IHgBw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=tutu%20gas%20chambers&f=false

        (you can see some other gas chamber references in the same link or if you google).

        4) This one is harder because you are asking for a reference to my opinion. As far as the migration and the pressure the Jewish community is under in South Africa: http://www.danakaplan.com/Articles/SAfrican/Exodus%20International%20Migration.pdf

        5) http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/27/world/tutu-urges-israelis-to-pray-for-and-forgive-nazis.html

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        March 26, 2014, 8:26 am

        1) I can only find online references to this from Zionist sources.

        So you admit there is no evidence of these statements or allegations.

        2) “One way to strengthen black-Jewish ties in this country is to help the cause of blacks in south Africa…

        So there is no suggestion whatsoever that he advocated for American Blacks to take revenge on American Jews. No suggestion of any king of violence or confrontation at all in fact.

        Fail!!

        3) http://books.google.com/books?id=d3P9AAItwS0C&pg=PA212&lpg=PA212&dq=tutu+gas+chambers&source=bl&ots=gcR-dlYDax&sig=SsFfO-unWu1eqE5bfWdjOSQxOh4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1TsyU6nUB7PF0AG29IHgBw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=tutu%20gas%20chambers&f=false

        No reference whatsoever made about gas chamber. Fail!

        4) This one is harder because you are asking for a reference to my opinion.

        If you insist on malign asinine comments and claims, and cannot back them up, then you deserve to be ridiculed.

        As far as the migration and the pressure the Jewish community is under in South Africa

        Tutu bears no responsibility whatsoever for the plight of the Jewish community in South Africa.

        Another epic fail!

        As for number 5), your false claims have already been exposed as blatant lies and fabrications.

        Pathetic effort JeffB – they kind we’ve come to expect from hasbarats like you.

        Black-Jewish relations in this country [the United States], will suffer until Israel “categorically repudiates” its ties with the South African government…. We blacks cannot understand how people with your kind of history (can) allow the government of Israel, as distinct from its people, to have the kind of relationship it does with South Africa”.

    • The JillyBeans
      The JillyBeans
      March 25, 2014, 3:12 pm

      I don’t believe it’s the arab israeli’s who are developing the settlements. So Tutu has a point on which Israeli population to point fingers at.

      I think Tutu has a right to his anger, the Israeli government held hands with the apartheid RSA government for decades.

    • Stephen Shenfield
      Stephen Shenfield
      March 25, 2014, 3:12 pm

      Who are these Nazis Tutu is supposed to have led a prayer service for?

      By the way, holding Jews to an especially high moral standard is the traditional standpoint of the Jews themselves. How else could Jews be “a light unto the nations”? You may disagree, but as this is the traditional Jewish standpoint it is unreasonable for you to call it anti-Semitic.

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        March 25, 2014, 3:32 pm

        @Stephen

        Who are these Nazis Tutu is supposed to have led a prayer service for?

        The Nazis responsible for making the holocaust happen: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/27/world/tutu-urges-israelis-to-pray-for-and-forgive-nazis.html

        This was repeated a few other times but that was the most famous incident.

        By the way, holding Jews to an especially high moral standard is the traditional standpoint of the Jews themselves. How else could Jews be “a light unto the nations”? You may disagree, but as this is the traditional Jewish standpoint it is unreasonable for you to call it anti-Semitic.

        No it is not. In-groups get held to different standards than out groups when critiquing their own societies. They get to hold themselves to whatever standards they want. Out-groups have to apply neutral standards of fairness. That’s why I get to say I want to reject the “being a light unto the nations” as a Jewish standard and Tutu doesn’t get a vote. Tutu gets to apply Isaiah 42:6 to Jesus or his bride the church but not to Jews. Especially since he’s particular well known for advocating the doctrine that all God’s promises to the Jews were nullified by the new covenant it’s a bit hypocritical then apply that verse to Jews. By the same token I can only fairly evaluate Tutu ethically in terms I would apply to any other national political leader and don’t get blast him for his failures to measure up to the goals of African Nationalism and Communism.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        March 25, 2014, 4:09 pm

        Who are these Nazis Tutu is supposed to have led a prayer service for?

        The Nazis responsible for making the holocaust happen: link to nytimes.com

        Oh, for the love of pete, he did not “hold a prayer service for Nazis”; he said an intercessory prayer. It’s something completely different, an extremely common Christian practice and in no way improper. At all. Just because you are wholly ignorant of the practice doesn’t mean you get to just make up whatever crap you want about it. Don’t be such a dumbass.

      • libra
        libra
        March 25, 2014, 4:20 pm

        JeffB: That’s why I get to say I want to reject the “being a light unto the nations” as a Jewish standard and Tutu doesn’t get a vote.

        You may find this hard to believe Jeff, but we all get a vote on this one. And even more incredible, we finally agree on something!

      • Kris
        Kris
        March 25, 2014, 4:27 pm

        I am really disappointed in you, JeffB. You say that Archbishop Tutu “led a prayer service for Nazis,” thus implying that he supported the Nazis, and then it turns out that what Tutu really did was to tell the Israelis, on 12/27/89, that forgiveness is better than hating.

        From the article, “Tutu Urges Israelis to Pray for and Forgive Nazis,” to which you linked:

        “Archbishop Desmond M. Tutu of Cape Town, the Anglican Primate of Southern Africa, urged Israelis today to pray for and forgive those responsible for the Nazi genocide.

        ”Our Lord would say that in the end the positive thing that can come is the spirit of forgiving, not forgetting, but the spirit of saying: God, this happened to us,” the South African cleric said after visiting Jerusalem’s Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial.

        ”We pray for those who made it happen, help us to forgive them and help us so that we in our turn will not make others suffer,” he said in what he described as the message he would offer to the descendants of those who suffered the Nazi crime that took six million Jewish lives.

        “The comments were the latest in a series of statements that Israelis have found irksome on a four-day Christmas pilgrimage to the Holy Land by the South African cleric. He has condemned what he called Israeli oppression and compared Israel’s handling of the Palestinians to South Africa’s treatment of blacks.

        ”If I met your Prime Minister, I would make exactly the same point,” he told reporters. ”I would say to him that I cannot myself understand people who have suffered as the Jews have suffered inflicting the suffering of the kind I have seen on the Palestinians.”

      • Kris
        Kris
        March 25, 2014, 4:32 pm

        ”I would say to him that I cannot myself understand people who have suffered as the Jews have suffered inflicting the suffering of the kind I have seen on the Palestinians.” –Archbishop Tutu

        For me, this is it. Every time I look at one of my Progressive-Except-Palestine Jewish friends, this is what I think.

      • lonely rico
        lonely rico
        March 25, 2014, 8:05 pm

        @kris is disapponted in JeffB.

        You say that Archbishop Tutu “led a prayer service for Nazis,” thus implying that he supported the Nazis . . .
        whereas in fact –
        “Archbishop Desmond M. Tutu of Cape Town, the Anglican Primate of Southern Africa, urged Israelis today to pray for and forgive those responsible for the Nazi genocide.”

        This is more than disappointing, it’s a disgusting personal attack based on a lie.

      • LeaNder
        LeaNder
        March 26, 2014, 12:07 pm

        You say that Archbishop Tutu “led a prayer service for Nazis,” thus implying that he supported the Nazis, and then it turns out that what Tutu really did was to tell the Israelis, on 12/27/89, that forgiveness is better than hating.

        I learned that the hard way, took me a while that hate is not such a good idea.

        I have to admit two things, this book brought to the limits of my desire to understand Jewish history and trauma, admittedly. But yes, I read it all, the whole psycho-ethnic journey over the centuries.

        But isn’t what Tutu tries to
        do in this context pretty similar to Avner Falk’s central thesis that there may be a Jewish denial to mourn.

        I write this as someone who, I realize by now has wasted a lot of her “life time” by chasing the “Nazi goasts”, …

        ”If I met your Prime Minister, I would make exactly the same point,” he told reporters. ”I would say to him that I cannot myself understand people who have suffered as the Jews have suffered inflicting the suffering of the kind I have seen on the Palestinians.”

        “If you were the prime minister” you shouldn’t say the same, for the very simple reason that you are no Christian priest, and without this basic context your statement would be simply the mirror face of JeffB’s rather frequent claims to be able to “speak for the Jews”, as many here have pointed out already. And lately it seemed to have produced a certain effect, in other words stop him from doing it again that frequently.

      • amigo
        amigo
        March 25, 2014, 4:33 pm

        “The Nazis responsible for making the holocaust happen: link to nytimes.com .jeff b

        Poor jeffy boy thinks the bishop advising forgiveness is pro nazi.

        Tutu Urges Israelis to Pray for and Forgive Nazis
        By ALAN COWELL, Special to The New York Times
        Published: December 27, 1989

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        Archbishop Desmond M. Tutu of Cape Town, the Anglican Primate of Southern Africa, urged Israelis today to pray for and forgive those responsible for the Nazi genocide.

        ”Our Lord would say that in the end the positive thing that can come is the spirit of forgiving, not forgetting, but the spirit of saying: God, this happened to us,” the South African cleric said after visiting Jerusalem’s Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial.

        ”We pray for those who made it happen, help us to forgive them and help us so that we in our turn will not make others suffer,” he said in what he described as the message he would offer to the descendants of those who suffered the Nazi crime that took six million Jewish lives.

        The comments were the latest in a series of statements that Israelis have found irksome on a four-day Christmas pilgrimage to the Holy Land by the South African cleric. He has condemned what he called Israeli oppression and compared Israel’s handling of the Palestinians to South Africa’s treatment of blacks.Cowell

        So you would be against Palestinians praying for and forgiving Jews who steal from /oppress them and murder their sons/daughters/brothers/sisters/Fathers and Mothers.

        Are you really that dumb jeff or is it just desperation,

      • amigo
        amigo
        March 25, 2014, 4:41 pm

        “Especially since he’s particular well known for advocating the doctrine that all God’s promises to the Jews”jeff b

        God,s promises to the Jews???.

        What are you on about.Source please and not Joan Peters or any such claptrap.

        Give us a legal document signed by an earthling of sound mind and in control of his/her mental faculties.

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        March 25, 2014, 10:06 pm

        @Amigo

        God,s promises to the Jews???.
        What are you on about.Source please and not Joan Peters or any such claptrap. Give us a legal document signed by an earthling of sound mind and in control of his/her mental faculties.

        Amigo. You and I don’t believe in God. Tutu does. He’s the one who is on about it and the source for those promises is the bible.

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        March 26, 2014, 12:39 pm

        @amigo

        Jeff, You and I do not believe in God. Zionists do.They are the ones claiming that this “God” entity gave them the land and you support that claim.

        See the problem with your argument.

        No. I support the claim to the land not the God. I think the Zionism / Haganah / IDF gave them the land.

      • justicewillprevail
        justicewillprevail
        March 25, 2014, 4:51 pm

        The usual predictable rubbish from Jeff, a litany of slurs that zionists tell themselves in order to avoid the uncomfortable and inconvenient truths. The Archbishop did not ‘lead a prayer service for Nazis’, lurid as that sounds. Apparently you don’t even read your own links. He invoked the Christian concept of forgiveness, extending it to include all humanity, even the worst, for a very honourable aspiration: “‘We pray for those who made it happen, help us to forgive them and help us so that we in our turn will not make others suffer” – ie his point being that if you cannot move on from the horror, and learn from it, you will repeat it (a point well made to Israel and its treatment of Palestinians). You might not understand that (obviously you don’t), you might disagree with it, but the cheap and shallow implication that you are desperate to pin on him that somehow he prayed for Nazis is typical of your dishonest attempt at slander. Notice what else he said whilst in Israel:
        “I cannot myself understand people who have suffered as the Jews have suffered inflicting the suffering of the kind I have seen on the Palestinians…
        The land that gave birth to the Prince of Peace is wracked by violence, hatred and hostility”. That is part and parcel of his overall point, which you of course refuse to recognise or understand. Like all zionist propagandists you leap on, and distort, one part of what he said, and utterly ignore what else he said. The only thing you are interested in is trying to discredit a man who has been utterly consistent and brave in his life and beliefs, and has not been afraid to speak out in favour of them. He has more credibility than any routine zionist muckraker will ever have. His own experience of apartheid gives him real insight into what he saw in Palestine, however much you sulk about it.
        The charge of anti-semitism is absolutely routine for zionists to make, as a cheap attempt to smear a person who has the courage to say what needs to be said. As such it is baseless. Repeating the fake outrage and slurs of the professional zionist lobby doesn’t actually constitute an argument or evidence, although you have no qualms about that. Your charge sheet is nonsense from top to bottom, and not for the first time. Do you really expect anybody here to believe this rubbish?

      • James North
        James North
        March 25, 2014, 5:06 pm

        JeffB: Fess up. You were just trolling about Archbishop Tutu, et al. You don’t really expect us to think that you believe what you said?

      • amigo
        amigo
        March 26, 2014, 11:29 am

        “Amigo. You and I don’t believe in God. Tutu does. He’s the one who is on about it and the source for those promises is the bible.”jb

        Jeff, You and I do not believe in God. Zionists do.They are the ones claiming that this “God” entity gave them the land and you support that claim.

        See the problem with your argument.

      • talknic
        talknic
        March 25, 2014, 5:00 pm

        JeffB “The Nazis responsible for making the holocaust happen”

        Actually he led a prayer service for people to find forgiveness and no matter how hard morally bankrupt zionutters try to paint it as a negative, it’s a basic and positive Christian tenet which doesn’t in any way condone what the perpetrators have done.

        Try again JeffBoy, let’s see how low you’re willing to stoop, how many of the basic tenets of Judaism you’re willing to trash in defense of the Jewish state’s illegal policies

      • Antidote
        Antidote
        March 25, 2014, 5:17 pm

        If Tutu’s Christian plea for forgiveness is (mis)represented as anti-semitic and pro-Nazi, what’s Jeff’s opinion on Jewish forgiveness projects?

        http://theforgivenessproject.com/stories/eva-kor-poland/

      • amigo
        amigo
        March 26, 2014, 12:05 pm

        Jeff B, “Amigo. You and I don’t believe in God. Tutu does. He’s the one who is on about it and the source for those promises is the bible.”

        If you do not believe in God then what,s this crap about a book Jews claim God gave them.

        You are truly losing it jeffy boy.

      • Donald
        Donald
        March 25, 2014, 5:11 pm

        ” A prayer service for Nazis” turns out to be Tutu doing exactly what as a Christian leader he’s done all his life–advocated forgiveness even for the most evil of men, though he also says those guilty of evil should acknowledge it. Here he is talking about it in a South African context–

        link

        So it turns out that what JeffB refers to as Nazi sympathy is actually just Desmond Tutu practicing forgiveness and urging others to do what he tries to do himself-forgive the unforgivable. You might think he’s asking too much, but it’s not more than he asks of himself. Unbelievable that someone could take this and twist it into something evil. At worst one could argue that someone like me, who has never lived under oppression, shouldn’t say something like that to Israelis regarding the Nazis, but Desmond Tutu has lived under apartheid, and yes, he does have some personal credibility here that I don’t have.

        On holding Jews to higher standards, I disagree with Tutu, but then that’s because I think Christians and Jews should both give up the pretense that their standards are higher than others. Or more accurately, Christians and Jews often profess high standards of morality, but it’s only the very rare people like Tutu who come anywhere close to living up to it. So yeah, it’s unfair to expect Israelis to be better than others. But if Israelis and Israeli defenders do claim to be moral paragons, as many do, yes it is perfectly fair to point out that Israel is in reality no better than apartheid South Africa and should stop pretending otherwise.

      • Donald
        Donald
        March 25, 2014, 5:14 pm

        Just in case people don’t click on the link I provided, here’s that monster Desmond Tutu speaking about forgiveness in a South African context. This is obviously what he was trying to tell the Israelis, and of course JeffB sees this as Nazi sympathy–

        “To forgive is not just to be altruistic. It is the best form of self-interest. It is also a process that does not exclude hatred and anger. These emotions are all part of being human. You should never hate yourself for hating others who do terrible things: the depth of your love is shown by the extent of your anger.

        However, when I talk of forgiveness I mean the belief that you can come out the other side a better person. A better person than the one being consumed by anger and hatred. Remaining in that state locks you in a state of victimhood, making you almost dependent on the perpetrator. If you can find it in yourself to forgive then you are no longer chained to the perpetrator. You can move on, and you can even help the perpetrator to become a better person too.

        But the process of forgiveness also requires acknowledgement on the part of the perpetrator that they have committed an offence. I don’t like to talk about my own personal experience of forgiveness, although some of the things people have tried to do to my family are close to what I’d consider unforgivable. I don’t talk about these things because I have witnessed so many incredible people who, despite experiencing atrocity and tragedy, have come to a point in their lives where they are able to forgive. Take the Craddock Four, for example. The police ambushed their car, killed them in the most gruesome manner, set their car alight. When, at a TRC hearing, the teenage daughter of one of the victims was asked: would you be able to forgive the people who did this to you and your family? She answered, “We would like to forgive, but we would just like to know who to forgive.” How fantastic to see this young girl, still human despite all efforts to dehumanise her.”

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        March 25, 2014, 10:27 pm

        @Donald —

        What does Tutu have to forgive the Nazis for? They didn’t do much of anything to Xhosa. What’s he got to forgive them for? So who is he to say “we forgive them”. He doesn’t get to decide if Jews do or do not forgive them. So instead of being a Neo-Nazi he’s a self appointed minister to the Jews who thinks he has the right to lead them in prayer like they are some sort of congregation? That’s your defense? And to compound it, this prayer was done in Israel, at a time when many holocaust survivors still live.

        The person who had the right to speak for the Jews was David Ben-Gurion. And the forgiveness prayer came from him that that German’s apology would take for the form of aide to Israel and actual Nazis if they were caught would hang. That’s what the guy who had the authority to speak for Jews said. And he didn’t agree with Tutu.

        How does your version make his statement any better? It turns Tutu into an arrogant prick who is lying to God and raising up false prayers in the name of a congregation that rejects as their minister. Jews don’t pray to Jesus it is blatant unequivocal idolatry for them. So even if that’s what he meant the prayer was truly offensive.

        The appropriate response to having offended people, which he clearly did would be to apologize not to lecture Israelis on their moral failings. He isn’t their minister. He doesn’t get to play minister. The state he should be ministering to is South Africa.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        March 26, 2014, 8:34 am

        So instead of being a Neo-Nazi he’s a self appointed minister to the Jews who thinks he has the right to lead them in prayer like they are some sort of congregation? That’s your defense?

        he has never led Jews in prayer, so you are already making a false claim before you even get to the crux of your argument. He urged Jews to pray, which is an entirely different matter.

        And to compound it, this prayer was done in Israel, at a time when many holocaust survivors still live.

        No prayer was done in Israel.

        The person who had the right to speak for the Jews was David Ben-Gurion.

        David Ben-Gurion said that it was preferable for more Jews to perish in the German crematoria than for Jews to make their way to England. And he never made any reference to Tutu, so he did not disagree with Tutu.

        Jews don’t pray to Jesus it is blatant unequivocal idolatry for them

        Which goes to show you were talking rubbish when you claimed Tutu was leading Jews in prayer.

        The appropriate response to having offended people, which he clearly did would be to apologize not to lecture Israelis on their moral failings

        Why not, when their moral failings have led to 65 years of human rights abuses, apartheid and ethnic cleansing. Why should Tutu apologise for pointing out such repugnant policies?

        You are seriously deranged as well as a pathological liar.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        March 26, 2014, 11:09 am

        “So instead of being a Neo-Nazi he’s a self appointed minister to the Jews who thinks he has the right to lead them in prayer like they are some sort of congregation? That’s your defense?”

        So, in other words, you admit your lies and slander against this great man. Too bad you don’t have the character to come right out and admit it.

        And further, Tutu was doing no such thing. He was offering his advice as a spiritual leader. And too bad the Israelis rejected it and continued to act in the evil manner they had up to that time or worse. Had they listened to Tutu, the world would be a much better place.

      • Donald
        Donald
        March 26, 2014, 11:38 am

        “What does Tutu have to forgive the Nazis for? They didn’t do much of anything to Xhosa”

        He’s suggesting a general principle. Tutu is suggesting that morality is universal and forgiveness is a good practice for everyone. You don’t want to understand this because you’d rather pretend that Tutu is some Nazi-sympathizing inconsiderate monster. Have fun with that.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        March 25, 2014, 5:13 pm

        You are lying JeffB. He said nothing about praying for Nazis. Your link only provides accusations from those accusing Tutu of doing so.

        So that’s a fail.

        And we are still waiting for those credible sources that Tutu has coed for attacks or revenge against Jews.

      • justicewillprevail
        justicewillprevail
        March 26, 2014, 11:02 am

        JeffB – talking of arrogant pricks….

        Tutu has more moral credibility and the right to preach his humane message than you will ever understand in your tiny bigoted corner of the universe

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        March 26, 2014, 4:59 am

        “In-groups get held to different standards than out groups when critiquing their own societies. They get to hold themselves to whatever standards they want.”
        You mean like in Germany from 1933-1945? I believe some out groups put a pretty harsh stop to that in-group solidarity, didn’t they?

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        March 26, 2014, 12:48 pm

        @Donald

        Donald says:
        March 26, 2014 at 11:38 am
        “What does Tutu have to forgive the Nazis for? They didn’t do much of anything to Xhosa”

        He’s suggesting a general principle. Tutu is suggesting that morality is universal and forgiveness is a good practice for everyone. You don’t want to understand this because you’d rather pretend that Tutu is some Nazi-sympathizing inconsiderate monster. Have fun with that.

        I understand exactly what you mean. But he said “we” not “you”. He has nothing to forgive the Nazis for. He never should have voiced a “we” in that prayer, he’s not part of whom the Nazis went over. He has no claim to that at all, the same way Israelis don’t have claim to the Nation Party. If he wants to offer prayers of forgiveness he can do that towards the National Party.

        And moreover you miss the main point: He is not a Jewish Rabbi. Who cares what he thinks Jews should be doing religiously! No one asked him. What he was doing was offensive and when told it was offensive he kept it up. Which means his intent is to offend.

        Besides I think it is a little odd for a BDSer, an organization which calls for destroying a people because you don’t like stuff their grandparents did to lecture me on forgiveness. If it is a general principle then forgive the Nabka and go work on something else.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        March 26, 2014, 5:25 pm

        He has nothing to forgive the Nazis for. He never should have voiced a “we” in that prayer, he’s not part of whom the Nazis went over.

        The Nazis didn’t only inflict crimes against Jews but pretty much the entire world, so now Jeff, the 1939-1945 period does not belong to the Jews.

        He is not a Jewish Rabbi. Who cares what he thinks Jews should be doing religiously! No one asked him.

        He is not saying anything about what inks Jews should be doing religiously. The reference to prayer is a lose one that does not require a particular religious character to partake in. When people thank others for their prayers, they do no specify which religious denomination.

        He was not speaking as a religious figure but as a political one and a humanitarian activist. Again, you have been exposed making a false allegation, which originally claimed he set out to defend Nazis. You even said he led Jews in prayer. All of these claims are outright lies.

        Besides I think it is a little odd for a BDSer, an organization which calls for destroying a people because you don’t like stuff their grandparents did to lecture me on forgiveness.

        BDS has no intention of destroying a people unless you insist that ending the occupation and respecting human rights will destroy all Jews everywhere, in which case, that would make you something akin to a satanist.

      • talknic
        talknic
        March 27, 2014, 7:12 am

        JeffB “He never should have voiced a “we” in that prayer, he’s not part of whom the Nazis went over”

        Millions of non Jews, including Christians were slaughtered by the Nazis.

        “He is not a Jewish Rabbi. Who cares what he thinks Jews should be doing religiously!”

        He wasn’t talking to Jews.

        “What he was doing was offensive and when told it was offensive he kept it up. Which means his intent is to offend.”

        Uh huh. Israel has been told HUNDREDS of time to comply with International Law, it hasn’t. Which means Israel’s intent has been to break international Law, resulting in tens of thousands of deaths. Has Desmond Tutu’s call for forgiveness killed anyone?

        ” I think it is a little odd for a BDSer, an organization which calls for destroying a people because you don’t like stuff their grandparents did”

        A) A call for Israel to comply with its legal obligations is not a call to destroy a people. It’s a call to end illegal policies and stop destroying a people.

        B) BDS is based on what Israel is doing TODAY

        “If it is a general principle then forgive the Nabka and go work on something else

        Nazi Germany perpetuated the Holocaust. Non-Nazi Germany today pays and pays and keeps on paying. But I get your point.. You want forgiveness for what Jewish Israelis did to the Palestinians but no forgiveness for anyone else…cute

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 27, 2014, 9:40 am

        “Millions of non Jews, including Christians were slaughtered by the Nazis.”

        But they don’t count, talknic.

      • ritzl
        ritzl
        March 27, 2014, 7:42 am

        @JeffB-

        He is not a Jewish Rabbi. Who cares what he thinks Jews should be doing religiously! No one asked him.

        What a demented view of the world and the way it aspires to work to the betterment of us all.

        So when Rabbi Hillel says, “What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.” I, as a non-Jew should somehow find that offensive? I don’t for one second believe that anyone would consider that sentiment offensive, no matter who it comes from or under what circumstances. Pretty much words to live by.

        I guess that’s the difference between you and so many others here. This conflict in a nutshell. Israel, despite all its feigned piety, doesn’t do the Golden Rule, at all. Never has.

        I suspect that’s why Tutu’s simple reiteration of forgiveness is so upsetting to you all. It reminds you of the spiritual basics you’ve abandoned to pursue an ongoing colonization project at other’s extreme expense.

    • Kris
      Kris
      March 25, 2014, 3:32 pm

      I often learn more from the comments on mondoweiss than from the articles. So I, too, would appreciate your providing links to primary sources for your amazing claims against Desmond Tutu, whom most of the world reveres.

    • tree
      tree
      March 25, 2014, 3:37 pm

      First off if you don’t like your heroes being insulted then maybe you get some idea about why Jews find BDS (which Tutu advocates) offensive. The people that Tutu attacks are just as precious to the Jews as Tutu is to the South Africans and worldwide human rights activists.

      And yet another self-appointed spokesman for “the Jews” stands up. Jews per se don’t necessarily find BDS “offensive”, and even some of those Jews who buy into Zionism don’t find BDS offensive so why talk as if they do? And “the Jews” as a monolithic group with but one opinion don’t exist, except in anti-semitic viewpoints. But that doesn’t stop JeffB from expounding as if he were an expert on what every Jew thinks. I swear some of the worst anti-semitic statements come from avowed Zionists.

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        March 25, 2014, 10:10 pm

        @tree

        And yet another self-appointed spokesman for “the Jews” stands up. Jews per se don’t necessarily find BDS “offensive”, and even some of those Jews who buy into Zionism don’t find BDS offensive so why talk as if they do?

        Because when one uses a term that applies to a very large group of people you are speaking of their institutional representatives. About 1/2 the Jews on the planet live in Israel. They vote in elections on policy and overwhelming for Zionist parties. The other 1/2 mostly live in America. They are almost all Zionist.

        There are subgroups within any population who have different opinions on anything. But group opinion is statistical and normative. And the Jewish community both statistically and institutionally is Zionist.

      • talknic
        talknic
        March 26, 2014, 9:53 am

        JeffB “when one uses a term that applies to a very large group of people you are speaking of their institutional representatives. About 1/2 the Jews on the planet live in Israel. They vote in elections on policy and overwhelming for Zionist parties. “

        OK have it your way pal. So when we read the hundreds of UN/UNSC resolutions telling us Israel is in breach of Laws, a UN Charter and relevant conventions adopted by the UN in large part because of the disgusting behaviour of the ^&^%$ Nazis, it becomes rather obvious that about 1/2 the Jews on the planet who live in Israel and vote in elections on policy and overwhelming for Zionist parties, are behaving like ^&^%$ Nazis!

        You really know how to wade around in elephant sh*te!

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 26, 2014, 10:23 am

        >> About 1/2 the Jews on the planet live in Israel. They vote in elections on policy and overwhelming for Zionist parties. The other 1/2 mostly live in America. They are almost all Zionist. … the Jewish community both statistically and institutionally is Zionist.

        It’s a shame that “almost all” Jews are in favour of Jewish supremacism.

        I wonder how many of them favour other forms of supremacism, including any that would relegate Jews to second-class (or lower) status.

        I wonder how many of them would quickly and conveniently become “born-again” believers in justice and equality if /when the blowback against Jewish supremacism were to turn ugly.

        (Zio-supremacists appear not to comprehend that while Jewish supremacism is great fun when Jews get to do all the stealing, colonizing, killing and general fucking up of other people’s lives, it’s much less appealing when Jews are the ones being fucked up by others.)

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        March 26, 2014, 6:34 pm

        @eljay

        It’s a shame that “almost all” Jews are in favour of Jewish supremacism.

        They aren’t. That’s just a charge you like to make and repeat over and over and over again. In reality they are in favor of Jewish equality that Jews enjoy the same national rights as other people and Israel for Israelis be as non offensive as Japan for the Japanese or Mexico for Mexicans. That you want to pretend something different doesn’t make it so.

        I wonder how many of them would quickly and conveniently become “born-again” believers in justice and equality if /when the blowback against Jewish supremacism were to turn ugly.

        If things that ugly they will be dead, they won’t believe in anything. The Jews are going back to just being a normal society. When they lose, they lose: game over, give up your seat for the next player. No more hanging on for thousands of years desperate. I think Zionism is fine but if I’m wrong one of Zionism’s last gifts may be a good death for the Jewish people. But certainly these threats like the one you just made that if Jews don’t like enough boots things might not be good anymore are something that Israel has saved them from.

        (Zio-supremacists appear not to comprehend that while Jewish supremacism is great fun when Jews get to do all the stealing, colonizing, killing and general fucking up of other people’s lives, it’s much less appealing when Jews are the ones being fucked up by others.

        The understand it plenty well. They had 2000 years of it. So now they have Jewish ICBMs to make sure that never again are they on the receiving end.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        March 27, 2014, 9:48 am

        @ JeffB

        “The understand it plenty well. They had 2000 years of it. So now they have Jewish ICBMs to make sure that never again are they on the receiving end.”

        The self-proclaimed Aryans had the V1, 2 rocket missile which London never foiled. Where are they today? Well their offspring have been paying reparations to Jews for decades. So, some material hope for Palestinians?

      • eljay
        eljay
        March 27, 2014, 9:49 am

        >> They aren’t. That’s just a charge you like to make …

        No, that’s what you said: “About 1/2 the Jews on the planet live in Israel. They vote in elections on policy and overwhelming for Zionist parties. The other 1/2 mostly live in America. They are almost all Zionist.”

        >> In reality they are in favor of Jewish equality that Jews enjoy the same national rights as other people and Israel for Israelis be as non offensive as Japan for the Japanese or Mexico for Mexicans.

        Japanese and Mexican are bureaucratic nationalities granted to all citizens of Japan and Mexico, respectively. “Jewish” is not a bureaucratic nationality. “Jewish State” is not like Japan or Mexico, no matter how much you like to pretend it is or can ever be.

        >> But certainly these threats like the one you just made …

        I made no threats, fool.

        >> The understand it plenty well.

        No, they don’t understand it well enough. And they don’t seem to care that blowback will hurt not just their hateful and immoral selves, but also Jews who happen to be just and moral people – Jews very much unlike you.

      • tree
        tree
        March 26, 2014, 3:52 pm

        Because when one uses a term that applies to a very large group of people you are speaking of their institutional representatives.

        No, when you use a term like “the Jews”, you are creating or perpetuating a stereotype, whether positive or negative. You are not “speaking of their institutional representatives”, nor are you making statistical references. To spout stereotypes instead of specifically speaking of “institutional representatives” (who, in the case of American Jewish organizations are not elected by all American Jews, or in some case not even elected at all) is lazy thinking and lazy speaking. Likewise, when you are making statistical references you use terms like “majority”, “plurality”, etc.; you do not use the term “the Jews” as if they are a monolith.

        For example, statistical studies show that the majority of Israeli Jews hold racist beliefs. However, to say that “the Jews” hold racist beliefs would be a lazy stereotype. But, on the other hand, just to show your own bias in regards to when you use the term “the Jews”, a majority of Israeli Jews believe that there is apartheid in Israel. However, I have never seen you claim that “the Jews” agree that there is apartheid in Israel. You only use the term “the Jews” when what you are ascribing to the whole lot of them is an opinion that you agree with.

        You don’t speak for all Jews, and it only shows your lack of an independent identity that you feel the need to back up your prejudices with the supposition that they are an integral part of your identity as a Jew. They aren’t. There is nothing about being an individual Jew that forces you to defend Zionism. Its a personal choice of yours. Just as it was a personal choice among white southerners in the Jim Crow era to support white supremacism, and a personal choice among white South Africans to support white supremacism in Apartheid South African. It was the easy and cowardly choice but it was a choice nonetheless, just as Zionism is a choice, and lazy and cowardly one. The fact that so many people can make bad choices does not make those choices worthy of respect, even if they are held by a majority, or by “institutional representatives”. There was nothing “anti-white” about striving for equality and justice in the US and South Africa; just as there is nothing “anti-Jewish” about striving for equality and justice in Israel/Palestine. On the contrary, to claim that equality is “anti-Jewish” is to defame both Jews and equality.

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        March 26, 2014, 6:14 pm

        @tree

        Under your theory talking about “the Jews” having opinions is impossible. Obviously that’s not what’s meant. You may object to the term for both institutional and majority sanction but it is the norm. I’m not stereotyping when I say “cats like tuna” even though my friend’s cat doesn’t and prefers donuts. For “cats like tuna” to mean anything there needs to implications from the hearer of majority, overwhelming… which I’m leaving ambiguous and they are discerning from context.

        For example, statistical studies show that the majority of Israeli Jews hold racist beliefs. However, to say that “the Jews” hold racist beliefs would be a lazy stereotype.

        I think the Jews in America mostly don’t hold racist beliefs (note the implied majority here). I’m not sure if the majority of Israelis do, though I think they are worse than American Jews on this issue (note context).

        So assuming you were right (which I’m not granting) it might be fair to say “Israelis are racists” or even “Israel is racist”.

        You only use the term “the Jews” when what you are ascribing to the whole lot of them is an opinion that you agree with.

        Not true. For example… “Jews don’t like symphonic metal” is statistically true but not true of me. Or more seriously “20 years ago Jews supported the 2SS” again true statistically, institutionally…. not true of me. Or on a religious topic
        “Jews are strongly opposed to Messianic Judaism” is true but statistically and institutionally and I think the majority of my coreligionists are dead wrong on that issue.

        There is nothing about being an individual Jew that forces you to defend Zionism

        Force, no. Makes it statistically more vastly likely, yes. There is nothing about being an American that forces me to defend democracy as a system of government over having tribal chieftains in some vague sense. In some specific sense American society, like any stable society, is constructed in such a way that as a member I’m likely to develop politically opinions mostly in accord with that society.

        just as there is nothing “anti-Jewish” about striving for equality and justice in Israel/Palestine.

        Equality or justice? Not the same things at all? If the issue were striving for equality you’d be more interested in discussing equality with Israelis who also believe in equality or other people who believe in equality.

        There was nothing “anti-white” about striving for equality and justice in the US and South Africa;

        The USA civil rights movement was a movement to help black people assimilate into America’s white society not to destroy it. So of course that one wasn’t anti-white. The people who were enthusiastic about the fall of South Africa hated white Africa. They most certainly were anti-white. And the movement against Zionism, BDS, is absolute a desire to destroy the Jewish society in Palestine not merely to aide in equality or justice. If it was about equality or justice alone there would be more enthusiastic response to extending citizenship to the Palestinians ex. Caroline Glick’s proposals.

    • Sycamores
      Sycamores
      March 25, 2014, 4:46 pm

      Jews find BDS (which Tutu advocates) offensive

      have you the ear of all the Jews in the world?

      the only people who would have issues with what Tutu advocates are those who support apartheid in israel.

      i too would like to see your sources to all the claims you made against Desmond Tutu. i did a quick search trying to find sources to your claims but couldn’t.

      if you can’t give sources what do that make you?

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      March 25, 2014, 5:17 pm

      Jews find BDS (which Tutu advocates) offensive

      Not when directed at states like Iran they don’t.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      March 25, 2014, 8:32 pm

      I certainly think it is fair to say that if Tutu and not Mandela had been the first president of South Africa, South Africa today wouldn’t have a Jewish population.

      That’s absolute rubbish. The Jewish population in South Africa were among the strongest opponents of apartheid. Tutu has never said anything inflammatory, man spirited or derogatory about Jews. You’re just speweing out the usual BS that Israel = Judaism and Jews.

      There is not a single credible source that cites any such statements from Tutu.

      • adele
        adele
        March 25, 2014, 10:39 pm

        Shingo,
        one of the most beautiful aspects of the anti-apartheid movement was the diverse community of activists it engendered within South Africa itself, and many in the leadership were Jewish South African nationals. The fact that JeffB attempts to slander, sully and distort that history and the people involved in that struggle reflects his true values (or rather lack of any).

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        March 26, 2014, 8:38 am

        The fact that JeffB attempts to slander, sully and distort that history and the people involved in that struggle reflects his true values (or rather lack of any).

        Very true.

        We have all seen the wonderful statements by Mandela in his Town Hall interview with Kopell making this very argument is such powerful terms. He pointed out how as a lawyer, it was Jewish legal firms that hired him, not white South Africans and the gratitude he had for their humanity.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 26, 2014, 4:32 am

        I certainly do not remember reading anything of that sort in the British press. I was living in Britain during the relevant period and playing close attention to the news.

        If he had said anything anti-Jewish, you can beet your boots his opponents (and there were plenty in high positions in Britain) would have made sure it got plenty of coverage.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        March 26, 2014, 8:46 am

        If he had said anything anti-Jewish, you can beet your boots his opponents (and there were plenty in high positions in Britain) would have made sure it got plenty of coverage.

        Exactly Roha.

        It would have been meticulously documented and archived and easily sourced from mainstream news sources. The fact it exists nowhere except Zionist propaganda sites is evidence is it is pure BS.

    • eGuard
      eGuard
      March 26, 2014, 5:13 am

      JeffB your heroes being insulted

      This was not an “insult”. Stopped reading your post after that.

    • weiss
      weiss
      March 26, 2014, 7:05 pm

      Get real you Fascist… Extremists like YOU incubate more anti-semitism than the Nazis and K K K combined.

      This Jew and many like myself are onto your game.

      All the Hasbara Shekels in the world cant stop the truth:

      The persecuted have BECOME the persecutors…

    • traintosiberia
      traintosiberia
      March 26, 2014, 9:50 pm

      Mufti was a great person. He was an intelligent Palestinian patriot . He was repeatedly mischaracterized by the Zionist who twice tried to kill him. The putative killer from the Stern gang died in Iraq by German fires . He patiently waited until 1930 for a change in the British immoral and illegal plan and waited to hear from the Zionist about a possible legal framework of understanding and working towards a binational state with no further immigration of the Jews .after 1930 . He started agitating only after repeated deceptive and coercive moves by British and by the Zionist. He was accused by Eichmann ‘s Jewish handler of Eastern Europe of being involved with Nazi but England never accepted those falsehood and never tried to frame him as the Zionist had hoped for.
      Mufti was a disappointed ,hurt and forsaken man . But he later realized that the worst mistake on his part was not to initiate armed conflict in 1919 when the Zionist were vulnerable and British was weak .

      • JeffB
        JeffB
        March 27, 2014, 9:33 am

        @traintosiberia

        He patiently waited until 1930 for a change in the British immoral and illegal plan and waited to hear from the Zionist about a possible legal framework of understanding and working towards a binational state with no further immigration of the Jews

        The whole point of the 1920s Zionist colonies in Israel was to make room for a mass migration, particularly of Eastern European Jews. That was the reason those colonies existed. Why would they ever agree to not do what their very purpose was? That’s like asking a plant not to make sugar.

        He was accused by Eichmann ‘s Jewish handler of Eastern Europe of being involved with Nazi but England never accepted those falsehood and never tried to frame him as the Zionist had hoped for.

        Frame him? He was an open advocate of an Arab Axis alliance. Frame him of what, doing what he openly publicly advocated?

        But he later realized that the worst mistake on his part was not to initiate armed conflict in 1919 when the Zionist were vulnerable and British was weak .

        I think you mean 1916. 1919 the war is over and moreover the British are now experienced in the use of gas and are using it against colonial revolts. The British would have easily crushed a colonial revolt.

        Stopping Zionism is a different thing than stopping the British. Certainly if the Palestinians of 1919 had been aware of what would happen in the early 1930s as Jews fled Nazism for Palestine they would have reacted much more forcibly the anti-Jewish movements of the teens and twenties would have had broad support and likely would have won. And the British certainly would have sold out their Jews no problem 1919 on to have peace with the natives. So yes it was a big mistake in theory.

        In practice Syrian pan Arab nationalism hadn’t migrated down to Palestine yet. I’m willing to be rather harsh about Palestinian leadership’s bad mistakes but it is very hard to see how they pull all that together in time. Think about it this way. You can’t have even the beginnings of pan-Arab nationalism until the Young Turks and that’s 1908. 11 years to go from seed to fully grown tree? That’s asking a lot. You are being a bit harsh on your guy.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        March 27, 2014, 10:53 am

        “Mufti was a great person.”

        Oh, I disagree. Whether he was an intelligent man and a patriot is beside the point. He was not a great person, at all. In fact, he was a pretty horrible person. That being said, his being a horrible person has nothing to do with the righteousness of the Palestinian cause. He was horrible, but even worse are those who try to use him to discredit the fight for Palestinian rights, liberation and freedom.

  9. Phan Nguyen
    Phan Nguyen
    March 25, 2014, 3:34 pm

    In 1989, before the end of South African apartheid, Tutu made a trip to Palestine/Israel.

    Protesters wrote “Tutu is a Nazi” on the wall of the Israeli Ministry of Religious Affairs, where he had visited, while others wrote “Black Nazi pig” on the walls of St. George’s Cathedral in East Jerusalem, where he was staying.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/27/world/tutu-urges-israelis-to-pray-for-and-forgive-nazis.html

    • The JillyBeans
      The JillyBeans
      March 25, 2014, 4:11 pm

      Brings to mind an old american slavery spiritual song that begins…”nobody knows the trouble I’ve seen, nobody knows but Jesus, nobody knows the trouble I’ve seen…”

      I’m still transfixed by PM Rabin’s assassination. It was a shocking lightbulb moment for me.

  10. mijj
    mijj
    March 25, 2014, 4:23 pm

    Neo-Nazis are the guys Israel supports in Ukraine, surely?

    • puppies
      puppies
      March 25, 2014, 6:22 pm

      @mijj – Better. Nazis are the guys Zionists support in Israel.

  11. Daniel Rich
    Daniel Rich
    March 25, 2014, 6:20 pm

    It took me 2 decades and 2 days after his funeral for me to realize that my [biological] father always referred to them as ‘Germans,’ never ‘Nazis.’ Because of that, I’ll never know why he did so… as he had every right to call them any name under the sun…

    I guess the former German Chancellor must be proud of that fact that his image or ‘previous being’ still evokes that much emotion today.

    “You told a lie… No, it was my imagination…”

    German Chancellor demands freedom for Palestinians

    It is all in the eye of the beholder.

    • Eva Smagacz
      Eva Smagacz
      March 26, 2014, 4:23 am

      Daniel,

      My family never used “Nazis” either. They were Volksdeutsch, Germans, Wehrmacht, Gestapo. Real people on the ground.

      • Daniel Rich
        Daniel Rich
        March 26, 2014, 4:50 pm

        @ Eva Smagacz,

        Off topic: it also reminds me of my [our] first trip into ‘commie’ land [Czechoslovakia], the kids my age were…, well, kids my age. I didn’t see any ‘blood red ‘ monsters either.

        My [biological] dad warned me “…to be aware of ‘propaganda,’ as any side abuses it to its own advantage.'” He followed his gut [and became a sole survivor], so I will heed his recommendations and advise.

  12. quercus
    quercus
    March 25, 2014, 7:02 pm

    Did anyone not see how truly bizarre the statement “most Jews are darker than Palestinians, who are mostly white”? Most Jews are not ‘white’. The Ashkenazim are …..?

    This is just about the most insane statement I’ve read. Truly, the world seems to have lost its mind.

    • German Lefty
      German Lefty
      March 26, 2014, 9:23 am

      Did anyone not see how truly bizarre the statement “most Jews are darker than Palestinians, who are mostly white”?

      Well, Palestinians are Arabs. And I was taught at school that Arabs belong to the white people. Jews, on the other hand, can be of any race. Therefore, SOME Jews are darker than Palestinians.
      Any way, this doesn’t really matter. Even if MOST Jews were actually darker than Palestinians, would this magically make Zionism okay? No, of course not. Ethnic cleansing and oppression are NEVER justified, no matter if the perpetrators happen to be dark-skinned or light-skinned. Also, dark-skinned people are just as capable of racism as light-skinned people.
      A racist can have ANY skin colour. A victim of racism can have ANY skin colour.

    • traintosiberia
      traintosiberia
      March 26, 2014, 11:00 pm

      Didn’t the Israeli envoy remind the Australian government how these two were alike in exposure pf ommon threat to ethnicity ? Australia is facing yellow peril and Israrl the darker Palestine .
      Later Israeli Firster in US , a congressman from NY would remind Indian gov how Israel was surrounded by 200 million Muslim and India was in habituated by 200 million Muslim.

  13. Kay24
    Kay24
    March 25, 2014, 10:18 pm

    All this hatred and insults aimed at Rev. Tutu, is simply the hasbara types trying to discredit him, because he referred to ISRAEL (not Jews) as a nation practicing apartheid policies. Oh the feigned outrage, and the usual lack of respect for any leader, including Jimmy Carter, who has the courage to speak out against the occupation and disgusting treatment of helpless human beings. The apologists are told that he must be silenced, and then the hatred shows.
    Any intelligent person will know that Rev. Tutu, having gone through years of suffering, can recognize apartheid policies when he sees them.
    He never criticized the Jews, nor their religion. He certainly criticized Israel, that deserved much more than what he said.

    • Naftush
      Naftush
      March 26, 2014, 9:29 am

      The Rev. Tutu’s years of suffering as such do not validate his views. At the risk of invoking Godwin’s law, one finds that the Holocaust affected survivors’ beliefs on all sorts of issues in all sorts of ways. However, a survivor who calls someone a Nazi on the basis of h/her having been a survivor deserves no more slack than a non-survivor would.

      • Daniel Rich
        Daniel Rich
        March 26, 2014, 5:04 pm

        @ Naftush,

        For the record; my [biological] dad always referred to ‘camp survivors’ as he saw them as the real [and only] victims of horrendous atrocities. A ‘holocaust survivor’ is anyone [of Jewish descent] who lived in Germany or German occupied territories, including North Africa during 1939-’45.

        If you compare that to the horrendous horrors of Mauthausen [for example], real ‘camp survivors’ [regardless of their age, race, creed, color, sex, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, marital status, and socioeconomic status – I borrowed this bit] are entitled to our utmost sympathy, warmth and understanding.

  14. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    March 25, 2014, 10:39 pm

    Tutu was attacked for what he says, not for the color of his skin. How is that racism? Unless you cite someone white who says the same things as Tutu, but for which that person is not called a Neo Nazi. Raising the racism accusation seems bogus, no?

    • tree
      tree
      March 26, 2014, 1:04 am

      Did you bother to read the NY Times article?

      Earlier, others had written: ”Black Nazi pig” on the walls of St. George’s Cathedral in Arab East Jerusalem, where the Archbishop was staying.

      You don’t consider that a racist statement?

    • eGuard
      eGuard
      March 26, 2014, 5:15 am

      yf, how did you know?

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      March 26, 2014, 5:18 am

      @ yonah fredman
      Did you read all of what he said, including the excerpts above in this thread? You think that’s sentiment one should be attacked for saying?

    • amigo
      amigo
      March 26, 2014, 11:12 am

      “Tutu was attacked for what he says, not for the color of his skin.” yf

      So you too did not read what he really said but are re-lying on your fellow ziofreak for your “Right facts”.

      Why don,t you zionist idiots give up the lies and propaganda.You are going down with a whimper.Just a matter of time.

  15. kalithea
    kalithea
    March 26, 2014, 1:25 am

    Just as Holocaust denial is considered anti-Semitism so too should Nakba denial. The Holocaust should not be milked to gain an edge in an argument that deals with the suffering of people in the present; it’s an immoral manipulation. Calling Rev. Desmond Tutu a neo-Nazi is the lowest form of ignorance.

  16. Sherri Munnerlyn
    Sherri Munnerlyn
    March 26, 2014, 9:16 am

    It is not only black South Africans who speak out against Apartheid in Israel.

    I was just listening to this you tube video and hearing white Jewish South African Denis Goldberg speak out against Apartheid in Israel. He endured Apartheid in South Africa and was imprisoned as a member of the ANC 22 years for his role in opposing Apartheid in South Africa.

    Watch “Former ANC Rivonia Trialist, Denis Goldberg speak…” on YouTube
    Former ANC Rivonia Trialist, Denis Goldberg speak…: http://youtu.be/NYslBp9-a-Y

    Who is better to speak out against Apartheid today then those who have lived under Apartheid, whatever their skin color or ethnicity may be, be it Desmond Tutu or Denis Goldberg.

  17. Talkback
    Talkback
    March 26, 2014, 9:23 am

    So what? On could call Misha Bercovich a “neo-Nazi” for supporting annexation (Jerusalem, Golan Hights); settling in occupied territories; expelling peoples or revoking their residency because of their faith/heritage to maintain a certain national character; collective punishment; “targeted liquidation”, prolonged administrative detention, torture even against children, dispossession, restricting movement and allowing people to live only in enclaves, differentiating between Israel’s nationals and its citizens, … I could go on and on and on …

    Well, he doesn’t support crimes against Jews, I’ll give him that.

  18. a blah chick
    a blah chick
    March 26, 2014, 10:24 am

    “…you don’t like your heroes being insulted…”

    Who does?

  19. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    March 26, 2014, 11:28 am

    “When I asked organizers from the Hillel Center to rebuke the ignorant comment, OSU Hillel organizers instead deleted all traces of the comment.”

    The fact that the Hillel Center was not willing to publicly rebuke this comment will be hopefully examined by the university

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      March 26, 2014, 4:11 pm

      So, we are left with Hillel’s decision to rebuke or not? I won’t hold my breath for a rebuke.

  20. weiss
    weiss
    March 26, 2014, 7:10 pm

    This is a democracy? This is Mississippi circa 1961. You don’t like the term “apartheid?” Well, here’s Nobel peace laureate Desmond Tutu in a statement he made Sunday for the opening of Israel Apartheid Week:

    “I have witnessed the systemic humiliation of Palestinian men, women and children by members of the Israeli security forces. Their humiliation is familiar to all black South Africans who were corralled and harassed and insulted and assaulted by the security forces of the apartheid government.”

  21. Basilio
    Basilio
    March 27, 2014, 1:28 am

    The poster states that Jews have done things for black rights world-wide. How exactly? Yes, some Jews in various countries have fought against discrimination, but he doesn’t represent the spirit of those Jews, and, I hate to break it to him, but Sephardic Jews and Dutch Jews were some of the biggest slavers of the New World. I They sold so many black people into slavery. I used to think it was just some BS story made up by the Nation of Islam, but the story has wheels. It happened. People speak of how Arabs dealt in slavery, but so did Jews. And Desmond Tutu is very much against prejudice and racism. Unfortunately, some Jews don’t want to see the racism that’s right in front of their face, just as some Arabs sought to ignore what the Sudan was doing to non-Arabs. That’s not the world we need. We need a world that’s more open and universal.

    Who calls Desmond Tutu a neo-Nazi? One of the senior members of the ANC is a Jew, but he wouldn’t like that poster at all; he’s critical of Israel. And this idea that most Jews are darker than Palestinians must be some kind of joke. There are so many Russian, Polish, German, and Italian Jews in Israel.

  22. just
    just
    March 27, 2014, 6:16 am

    This Desmond Tutu?

    “South African Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu on “the God of surprises” — how his understanding of God and humanity has unfolded through the history he’s lived and shaped:

    “There’s no question about the reality of evil, of injustice, of suffering, but at the center of this existence is a heart beating with love. You and I and all of us are incredible. I mean, we really are remarkable things. That we are, as a matter of fact, made for goodness.””

    http://us4.forward-to-friend.com/forward/show?u=c4ce343e5cb83e8b16dffbf08&id=c58b0c25ce

    A great human. Too bad that Misha the Racist does not know this.

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