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Netanyahu: Jerusalem was always the capital ‘of the Jewish people alone’

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Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu claimed Jerusalem has always been the capital “of the Jewish people alone, not of any other people” at a Jerusalem Day ceremony on Ammunition Hill, in Israeli-occupied East Jerusalem on May 17.

“Jerusalem won’t become once again a wounded and bisected city,” he continued. “We will forever keep Jerusalem united under Israeli sovereignty.”

Netanyahu pledged to “continue to build and nurture [Jerusalem], to expand her neighborhoods.”

The prime minister has long insisted that Israel must control East Jerusalem. In the same celebration in 2010, he maintained that “We cannot divide or freeze a city as vibrant and creative as Jerusalem – we will continue to build and be built by it” and averred “We are the generation which was lucky enough to see our holy sites liberated and returned to our hands, and it is upon us to transfer this right to our children.”

Jerusalem Day, celebrated every year on the 28th day of Iyar, the second month in the Jewish calendar, commemorates what Israel calls the “reunification” of  Jerusalem.

Extremist Israelis mark the day every year by marching through the Old City of occupied Jerusalem chanting racist and anti-Muslim slogans like “Death to the Arabs.”

Journalist Charlotte Silver, reporting from the 2015 commemoration for The Electronic Intifada, interviewed Israelis who proclaimed “May they all [the Palestinians] die today, all together.” A young Israeli applauded Israel for liberating Jerusalem from “the donkeys.” Another expressed hope that the memory of the Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from Jerusalem will be “erased.”

Israeli leftists protest a Jerusalem Day march on 17 May 2015. (Photo: AFP/Gali Tibbon)

Israeli leftists protest a Jerusalem Day march on 17 May 2015. (Photo: AFP/Gali Tibbon)

Several hundred Israeli leftists protested the march, chanting slogans such as “Jerusalem will not be silent, outlaw racism.” The activists, largely from the left-wing organization Jerusalem Won’t Tolerate Racism, dubbed the demonstration a “march of hate,” and held signs reading “Jews and Arabs refuse to be enemies” (red sign in Hebrew above) and “We are against incitement. We are against racism” (purple sign in Arabic above).

Decades of Illegal Occupation

Israel militarily occupied East Jerusalem in 1967. For decades, the United Nations has insisted that this occupation is illegal. “Israel’s unilateral annexation of East Jerusalem and the surrounding West Bank hinterland contravenes international law. It is not recognized by the international community which considers East Jerusalem an integral part of the occupied Palestinian territory,” the UN maintains, citing Security Council resolutions 252, 267, 471, 476, and 478.

“Since 1967, Israeli measures have altered the status of East Jerusalem and affected the residency status of Palestinians, their access to basic services, and their ability to plan and develop their communities,” the UN continues.

“Israeli settlement activity in East Jerusalem is illegal and occurs at the expense of land and resources for Palestinian construction and development, placing residents at risk of forced eviction, displacement and dispossession,” the UN also notes. “As the occupying power, Israel is responsible for administering the occupied territory for the benefit of the protected Palestinian population.”

Attacked Journalists

Palestinian photojournalist Nidal Ashtiyeh was shot in the face by Israeli occupation forces on 17 May 2015. (Photo: Ahmad Talat Hassan)

Palestinian photojournalist Nidal Ashtiyeh was shot in the face by Israeli occupation forces on 17 May 2015.
(Photo: Ahmad Talat Hassan)

Israeli police assaulted and broke the cameras of Palestinian journalists who were filming the Jerusalem Day protests. The reporters say they had the proper accreditation to film the march, but were attacked anyway.

A journalist reported that Israeli police evacuated the area and refused to allow anyone except Israeli settlers in.

Just a few days before, on 15 May, Israeli occupation forces shot a Palestinian journalist in the face with a rubber-coated steel bullet. The man had been photographing a Nakba Day protest. He was wearing a gas mask, the glass of which the bullet shattered, wounding his left eye.

Ben Norton
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123 Responses

  1. pabelmont
    pabelmont on May 18, 2015, 3:31 pm

    Are broken cameras and broken heads sufficiently similar to broken glass that we may fairly call “Jerusalem day” (as celebrated ) a rebirth of “kristallnacht”? Seems mighty fascist to me.

    • hophmi
      hophmi on May 18, 2015, 4:49 pm

      Assuming the story is true, no, a few broken cameras are not akin to the burning and looting of dozens of synagogues over 2 nights and the murder of nearly 100 German Jews. American police officers have broken people’s cameras before, and I don’t recall anyone making that comparison.

      • Marnie
        Marnie on May 18, 2015, 11:51 pm

        What would it take for you to stop minimizing other people’s pain? “American police officers have broken people’s cameras before, and I don’t recall anyone making that comparison.”

        Of course, because American police officers and Israeli police officers/army are all in bed together now, getting nice and cozy with the new rules for crowd control – shoot to maim/kill. It seems that your interpretation of anything that happens to Palestinians is to say – meh, we had it worse. Your unwillingness, and that’s exactly what it is, its not that you can’t, you just won’t, but anyway your unwillingness to stop making excuses and comparisons, is the fear that Jews will lose their “Special Victim” status in the world. Unbelievable. N’Yahoo and his gang of murdering thugs aren’t victims, they’re perps and if the only way in their sick minds to assure they are never victims again is to keep their boots on the necks of Palestinians, who had absolutely nothing to do with the atrocities in EUROPA, then God help us that stand by and do nothing to stop this horror.

    • justicewillprevail
      justicewillprevail on May 18, 2015, 6:38 pm

      Yes, put these examples together with the daily smashing of cameras, homes, equipment, infrastructure, orchards, olive groves, burning of mosques, attacks on orphanages, the chanting of mobs, the encouragement of hate – and you have the equivalent of a long, continuing Kristallnacht. The timescale may be different, the effect is the same, or even worse. And yes, the comparison has been noted in other examples of hate and destruction accompanied by mobs of Israeli Jews. Hebron is a classic example of this Kristallnacht behaviour.

    • musings
      musings on May 20, 2015, 7:44 pm

      No. Not really. Because a shop window is something a person passing by can look in. But a camera lens shows the whole world. Both are crimes, but it’s a bigger crime to break the lens.

  2. Abuadam
    Abuadam on May 18, 2015, 3:43 pm

    Al Quds or whatever terminology you which to use existed at least 500 years before anyone heard of a people called Israelites (not jews, not Judaism, the tribe of Judah was only 1 of 13 Israelite tribes) appeared on the scene.
    Nothing in the archeological record even remotely supports Exodus; therefore they developed from the local Cananites, present day Palestinians.
    Sorta like falafel and humus being modern Israeli cuisine.

    • JeffB
      JeffB on May 18, 2015, 5:08 pm

      @Abuadam

      What evidence do you have that any population continuously inhabited Palestine for 2500 years? What ties do you have between today’s Palestinians and the Canaanites?

      • Marnie
        Marnie on May 18, 2015, 11:42 pm

        Herr JeffB –

        What evidence do you have to the contrary? What ties do you have to the ancient Israelites? What can you produce to support N’Yahoos assertions? The torah? Really?? The Palestinians have been caretaking the land for hundreds and hundreds of years. What’ve you or I or any other foreigner done?

      • Marnie
        Marnie on May 19, 2015, 1:50 am

        I got sidetracked Herr Jeff. The ancient Hebrews, if you go by the book, were cast out of the land. They had their shot, blew it and got kicked out. A lot of Jews in the land now have only one thing in common with the ancient Hebrews in my opinion, that being arrogance, idol worship and the belief in the power of might over right. No belief in God whatsoever. Alot of people here say they don’t believe in anything, etc., etc. Fine. But oftentimes they are the same people who claim sole ownership/entitlement of this land because of what a book they have no belief in whatsoever, claimed. Sounds like history is about to repeat itself. “Fasten your seatbelts, it’s gonna be a bumpy ride”.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on May 19, 2015, 2:51 am

        “They had their shot, blew it and got kicked out.”

        Mooser seems to share this view. Could you expand on it a bit, please, for the sake of the theologically disadvantaged?

      • zaid
        zaid on May 19, 2015, 5:47 am

        jeffb
        we have more evidence to connect us to Canaanites than you have to connect you to Hebrew tribes.

        actually when geneticists try to prove (but fails) that modern Jews are descendants of the ancient Jews they compare their genes to Palestinians and other Arabs………..funny.

        not that it is relevant anyway since who cares who was who 3000 years ago or so.

      • JeffB
        JeffB on May 19, 2015, 8:10 am

        @Marine

        What evidence do you have to the contrary [of a population continuously inhabiting Palestine for 2500 years

        1) Palestinians speak a language that evolved from an eastern Arabian peninsula dialect of Aramaic not one of the western ones. So at some point either the people were replaced or we had a major cultural invasion which transformed the people. They also worship an eastern Arabian peninsula God and other aspects that are fully consistent with them being descended from the Muslim invaders of the 6th and 7th century rather than a local population.

        When you look at their culture you see almost nothing that would have evolved had they been the earlier Bzantine and Jewish culture

        2) The Palestinians have no knowledge of the events that took place earlier in Palestine’s history. They quite literally lived next to treasures that remained buried until the Jews showed up again in the 19th century. If they were descended from the earlier inhabitants we would expect to see signs of them being aware of this. I’d suggest you look at MHughes976’s comment about the Vikings. That sort of passionate view of the history is precisely what you do see in a people that has continuously occupied a territory for 1500 years.

        3) We have secular recorded history supported by an archeological of several complete change overs of the society via mass expulsions and extermination. A counter theory is going to need to explain the archeology.

        4) Jewish history records multiple unsuccessful attempts at reestablishing themselves in Palestine. The early ones should have noted the continuity.

        As for the ancient book and getting kicked out… Marnie this is the kind of comment that makes me doubt you are an Israeli, you aren’t even familiar with Israel’s national culture. First off that sort of “good book” style of speaking is Christian, your identity is showing. Second the Tanakh ends with the restoration of Jews to Israel. They get kicked out and are back. So if you “go by the book” the are restored not exiled. The diaspora happens well after “the book” ends. Third God’s claim in “the book” is one of might. That is how he justifies himself as opposed to the other God’s. “The book” mostly preaches henotheism not monotheism which is even more obvious in the Hebrew that if you were an Israeli you would have read.

      • Marnie
        Marnie on May 19, 2015, 8:23 am

        @RoHa –

        I’m going by old testament expulsions for disobedience to the Lord that can be found in the book of Daniel for one, but I believe even Exodus discussed the punishment for disobedience being expulsion, taken into captivity and such.

        I looked at my post and wrote “A lot of Jews in the land now have only one thing in common with the ancient Hebrews in my opinion, that being arrogance, idol worship and the belief in the power of might over right” and then I listed 3 things. I’m mathmatically challenged as well.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 19, 2015, 10:48 am

        “Mooser seems to share this view. Could you expand on it a bit, please, for the sake of the theologically disadvantaged?”

        The “theologically disadvantaged” are, of course, all those who did not have a list of the Kings of Judah inscribed on their shirt-cuff or middy-blouse when they sat for the Scripture Knowledge examination.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 19, 2015, 11:02 am

        “JeffyB” if you are an atheist, as there is no God (Do I need to link, JeffyB, it’s all there, in your archive) what the hell difference does anything it says in the Bible make?

        So know we’ve got a lunatic Jewish atheist, a preservationist-for-profit, lecturing Marnie on her insufficiently Jewish manner-of-speaking? Okay.

      • JeffB
        JeffB on May 19, 2015, 12:02 pm

        @Mooser

        OK I’m going to try responding let’s see if you can maintain civility.

        “JeffyB” if you are an atheist, as there is no God (Do I need to link, JeffyB, it’s all there, in your archive) what the hell difference does anything it says in the Bible make?

        What difference does it make to what?
        Andrew: All flowers are blue
        Ben: Andrew said that all flowers are blue.

        If I were to say that Harry Potter went to Durmstrang in the series and not Hogwarts I’d be wrong despite the fact that Hogwarts, Durmstang and Harry Potter are all fictional. When we talk about the world of reality I don’t think the 1st exile happened. I don’t think Judaism existed yet. My opinion on the validity of the biblical narrative doesn’t change what the biblical narrative says. I’m not a narcissistic leftist who thinks the most important aspect of reality is how I feel about it.

        I don’t think Marnie is Israeli because she is simply too ignorant of Israeli culture. Judaism is part of Israeli culture. Whether HaShem exists or not is irrelevant to that point. Marnie’s religious education is Christian. Where would an Israeli have gotten a Christian religious education? Even if it was, how did she not pick up more Judaism?

        The Jewish people in Israel decided to move away from the communal atheist identity to become a neo-liberal religious society. In the abstract I would have voted the other way. But as a Jew I think integrating the Mizrahi successfully was vastly more important than getting over hangups about what you can carry in areas with different sorts of telephone wires on shabbat. So n on apostates I’ll repeat what I’ve said. I think joining an American peace movement to oppose the war in Iraq is very different than joining Al-Qaeda in Iraq. One is critique from within one is quitting being an American. I’m willing to tolerate Satmar’s as being Jewish even though they are in theory anti-Zionists because the rest of their life strengthens the Jewish people. JVPers who don’t do anything for Judaism, don’t have the offset. I have no problem with BDS being treated as the modern equivalent of accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. That also has nothing to do with HaShem it has to do with what it means to pledge fidelity.

        I think it is high time these “Jews” in JVP if they want Jewish credibility prove it. Stop asking them basic questions like whether they had a Bar-Mitzvah (which they still fail at). Ask harder things like why do some Jews light Shabbat candles 18 minutes before sunset and others 40 minutes? How close to shabbat can you relight the candle before shabbat. Whether they know that stuff or not determines whether they get to use the term “Jewish Voice for Peace” or “Non-religious self righteous anti-semitic Israel haters for Peace”.

      • Marnie
        Marnie on May 19, 2015, 12:19 pm

        I love it when people with no religion question my authenticity – thanks for the chuckles Herr Jeff. I’m not Jewish enough, so what. I don’t sound Israeli huh? Thanks! I work very hard at it. Want to know what you sound like to me (no, you really don’t). This restoration you talk about is at whose invitation Herr Jeff? The first invitation, to be a “peculiar treasure”, per the book, was at the behest of the Almighty. This second adventure – this land theft and murder, was not at the invitation of the Almighty. It was might versus right and that makes it wrong. As far as everything else you claim, that’s all it is and it doesn’t mean dick.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 19, 2015, 12:38 pm

        “Third God’s claim in “the book” is one of might. That is how he justifies himself as opposed to the other God’s.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-jerusalem-capital/comment-page-1#comment-769022

        OK, here we go; a little trip through the archive

        “BTW I’m an atheist and not shomer shabbas”

        Dude, I’m an atheist Jew. My daughter’s boyfriend’s parents run their own little synagogue for about 200 people. While they would never call themselves this I think both of them are atheists: they believe in Judaism but not the ability of the Jewish God to affect material reality.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jeffb?keyword=atheist#sthash.IfNItrbB.dpuf

        “It is a true tragedy for Palestinians that their society was destroyed to make room for Israel. God (I’m also an atheist, being metaphorical here)” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jeffb?keyword=atheist#sthash.IfNItrbB.dpuf

        Q: Religious background A: “2) Jewish atheist.”

        “Abigail…. I’m an atheist.”

        Whoo-boy! “My atheist wife and atheist me had no problem getting an orthodox rabbi who was willing to marry us (didn’t end up being the way we went but..) because we had not engaged in an act of apostasy.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jeffb?keyword=atheist#sthash.IfNItrbB.dpuf

        “Because we had not engaged in an act of apostasy!” You denied her your ‘essence’?

        “As far as atheists. An atheist can acknowledges the state religion and be supportive of it, even if they personally don’t believe in the existence of God. For example myself.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jeffb?keyword=atheist#sthash.IfNItrbB.dpuf

        Plenty more from “JeffyBs” archive. So we have an atheist Jew who delights in judging others on their Jewish manner. Somebody should really read the ADA to the Mods. It’s not fair to take advantage of a person like this.

      • just
        just on May 19, 2015, 1:00 pm

        The original Kook may be dead, but it seems that lots of other kooks have eagerly taken his spot.

        Take for instance, JeffB @ 12:02 right here, on this thread.

        Anyway, thank you Marnie & Mooser,

      • Marnie
        Marnie on May 19, 2015, 1:07 pm

        Herr Jeff –
        I couldn’t respond anywhere else. I have to interject something that is probably a truth for a lot of converts. So much of what was taught to us in classes was not torah but so-called traditions and customs and a lot of crap from the talmud, which I don’t accept nor do I have to. With people like yourself, an atheist snob who sits in judgment of me because I don’t sound Jewish – what is that, exactly? You might not mean to Herr Jeff, but you sound like a bitch.

        Thanks Mooser and Just –

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 19, 2015, 1:14 pm

        “Third God’s claim in “the book” is one of might. That is how he justifies himself as opposed to the other God’s.” “JeffyB”

        Oh yes, “Jeffyb” He is a Mighty God. But not mighty enough to make you believe in Him! Why, that makes JeffyB mightier than god!!! Yes, God can fool the dumb and weak into believing in Him, but not “JeffyB!” “JeffyB” is too smart for that.

        And since JeffyB is smarter than God, he is the perfect person to explain God and religion to us.

      • zaid
        zaid on May 19, 2015, 1:51 pm

        jeffb

        Stop distorting history.

        1-Arabic is a western Semitic language . actually Arab is a Semitic word meaning West (Gharab). meaning people from west of the river (western Levant) like Palestine.
        the Aramaic-speaking Nabataeans (palestine and jordan) develop the Arabic script in 350 D

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages#/media/File:Semitic_languages.svg

        https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/semitic-tree.jpg

        2-Arabs of Arabia are originally Canaanites or proto Canaanite.

        3-Modern Palestinians adopted Arabic (arabized) after the spread of Islam such like the Egyptians,Algerians Mauritanians and even Somalians. Arabic speaking nations are a highly heterogeneous collection of peoples with different ancestral origins.

        The Arab League defines an Arab as:

        An Arab is a person whose language is Arabic, who lives in an Arabic-speaking country, and who is in sympathy with the aspirations of the Arabic-speaking peoples

        4- modern Palestinians are a mixtures (not a pure race) which elements from Arabia and Canaan and others are significantly present.

        4-modern Jews are not descendants of ancient Jews.

        http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/5/1/61

        5-why does ashkenazi Jews compare their genetic makeup to Arabs and Palestinian when trying to prove that they are Semitic and indigenous to the area and not European.

        6-Biblicaly Jews are western Semites (abraham)….assuming the bible counts anyway.

        7- having said that it is irrelevant who was who 3000 years ago such like it is not relevant in all other countries.

        8- Pre Islamic Arab gods spread from Palestine to Arabia, mainly from Nabateans ,Moabites,even greek……examples are the god Manat , Al Uzza , Dushra , Al Qaem.

        actually the Jewish religion are easily traced to Mesopotamia (Iraq).

      • lysias
        lysias on May 19, 2015, 2:02 pm

        All the apparent inconsistencies are resolved if we drop the assumption that it is only one person who is using the “JeffB” moniker.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 19, 2015, 2:52 pm

        “All the apparent inconsistencies are resolved if we drop the assumption that it is only one person who is using the “JeffB” moniker.”

        Or maybe it’s one person who is, well, nuts. I think that is much more likely.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on May 19, 2015, 3:36 pm

        “Or maybe it’s one person who is, well, nuts. I think that is much more likely”

        I just about managed to swallow that mouthful of wine before I read that or it would have been all over the screen. That one killed me. Just too funny (too freaking true as well)

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 19, 2015, 3:10 pm

        “Thanks Mooser and Just –”

        Nobody can tell you how to be Jewish. Do it any way you want to.

      • just
        just on May 19, 2015, 3:14 pm

        Bingo!

        Thanks , Mooser @ 3:10!

      • JeffB
        JeffB on May 19, 2015, 4:24 pm

        @Zaid

        Look at your own graph. Where is the tree for Aramaic. Where is the branch for Arabic. Your graph agrees with me.

        As for genetics and Ashkenazi Jews I agree with you. Though a shockingly large percentage of your side disagrees. Jews obviously interbred with the European populations so that they now look European. And I don’t care about genetics. That doesn’t however mean they aren’t descendants of ancient Jews. Consider a population X that is 1% of given population. Allow X’s females to interbreed with the broader population 30% of the time randomly and intrabreeds 70%. Virtually none of their genetics is going to remain but they are still descended from the original population. X generation 1 fathers X generation 2… That’s the situation in America. Most Americans are descended from Americans and that was true in every generation yet little of the American DNA is from the Pilgrims.

        As for the Palestinians being the original population:
        either they are the original population or they are a mixed group formed from different waves of peoples. They can’t be both. You are contradicting yourself.

        Finally in terms of it not mattering. I’m fine with it not mattering. I agree 100% with you on this! I hate this racist anti-colonialist crap about tracing back origins. Stop calling Israel “Palestinian land” and agree that land belongs to whomever lives on it now. The neighborhoods my grandparents lived in became black and now are hispanic. I don’t call those parts of the city “Jewish land”. So please go there.

        But as long as BDS insists on using a racial definition of land and denies the equality of all people, then we have to get into the mud of racism to debate it.

      • Misterioso
        Misterioso on May 19, 2015, 4:38 pm

        JeffB

        When in doubt, consult a real expert:

        To quote Professor Ilene Beatty, renowned historian/anthropologist and specialist on the Holy Land: “[Being of] Canaanite origin, Palestinians have priority; their descendants have continued to live there, which gives them continuity; and (except for the 800,000 dispossessed refugees [of 1948 and the hundreds of thousands subsequently expelled]), they are still living there, which gives them present possession. Thus we see that on purely statistical grounds they have a proven legal right to their land.” (Ilene Beatty – Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan, 1957)

        It should also be noted that thus far, no archaeological evidence or more importantly, writings of contemporaneous civilizations have been discovered that prove the Exodus from Egypt took place or that David and Solomon ever existed.

        BTW, the Jebusite/Canaanites, ancestors of today’s Palestinians, founded Jerusalem around 3000 BCE. Originally known as Jebus, the first recorded reference to it as “Rushalimum” (or “Urussalim”) appears in Egyptian Execration Texts of the nineteenth century BCE, nearly 800 years before it is alleged King David was born.

      • JeffB
        JeffB on May 19, 2015, 4:41 pm

        @Marnie

        I couldn’t respond anywhere else. I have to interject something that is probably a truth for a lot of converts.

        So after all the huffing and puffing I was right about the Christian education. Moving on.

        So much of what was taught to us in classes was not torah but so-called traditions and customs and a lot of crap from the talmud,

        Yep that’s right. The Talmud is the central religious text for Judaism. The Pentateuch (I’ll use the Christian term for the clarity) is the original source text for the Mishnah which then gets further built upon. All that stuff that Luther taught you about layers of tradition and sola scriptura is even more true of Judaism than Catholicism.

        The religion you are preaching is Karaitism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism

        which I don’t accept nor do I have to.

        You do if you want to call your religion Judaism. And more importantly that’s the sort of distinction an Israeli would be aware of because lots of Karaites live in Israel.

        With people like yourself, an atheist snob who sits in judgment of me because I don’t sound Jewish – what is that, exactly?

        The religion you took an oath to join, which included an oath of loyalty. You want to quit have at it. Jesus is forgiving and welcomes his sheep back. Just stop claiming to be what you aren’t. You want to be the resident Israeli you need to know Israel. You want to claim to be a Jew you need to know Judaism. You want to be another Christian on here who hates Israel and Jews there are plenty of those.

        ____

        FWIW I am a big fan of liberal conversion policy. But one of the things Christians are much better at than Jews with their converts is helping them come to terms with the theological concepts that are no longer part of their faith when they switch over. For you that should have included sola scriptura. You can rightfully blame the Jews for the fact that didn’t happen. But the fact that it didn’t happen doesn’t mean that your interpretation is worth squat compared to the Jewish scholars who spent a lifetime studying. There is no holy spirit guiding you to the essentials of the faith in this religion.

        I’ll let you get the last word in.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 19, 2015, 5:14 pm

        “The religion you took an oath to join, which included an oath of loyalty.”

        “JeffyB” are we the unluckiest religion, or what? Plagued by disloyalty and phonies who would disavow Judaism’s real-estate interests.

        Gee, Jeffy, what percentage of self-declared Jews are worthy of the awesome inheritance of Judaism? And remember, “JeffyB”, the more people you excommunicate, the more Judaism is left for you! Your share of the reward and the reparations will be all the greater, for each person you kick out.

        Oh, and BTW, “JeffyB” the “oath of loyalty” Marnie supposedly took? I don’t want to shock you, but it wasn’t an oath to be loyal to you. Hard to figure, I know, Jeffy, but there it is. Must be some break-away sect or something.

      • gamal
        gamal on May 19, 2015, 6:00 pm

        Jeffallah
        of course you will know that Abuadam is merely a version of that ( also a well known West Semitic loan word in Sumerian), Ugaritic term Ab adam, an ephiphet of El, or God, ie Father of Man, it appears your atheism may have been a touch hasty. He forgives if you stop bullshitting.

        Zaid

        here is some rather funny scholarly bitching about Genesis and Atra Hassis and Enku and Ninhirsag and of course Nin-ti, created as the Physician, first woman, to heal the sick organ or sore rib of Enku, the primordial woman translates from the Sumerian, as lady of the rib or as ti has another meaning “The Lady Who Gives Us Life”, I always liked that, we’d be lost without Mummy.

        I studied Inscriptions from before the Flood. (I thought David Toshio Tsumura’s bit was hilarious, i may be a bit perverse, bickering scholars are funny to me) at the link you may even look inside.
        https://books.google.ie/books?id=g5MGVP6gAPkC&lr=&redir_esc=y

      • Hostage
        Hostage on May 19, 2015, 8:28 pm

        Netanyahu: Jerusalem was always the capital ‘of the Jewish people alone’ – … What evidence do you have that any population continuously inhabited Palestine for 2500 years? What ties do you have between today’s Palestinians and the Canaanites?

        Let’s turn that question around and ask what evidence Netanyahu has of any ties to the Crusader Kingdom and the Jewish people? The Ingeborg Rennert Center for Jerusalem Studies at Bar-Ilan University claims that when the Crusaders selected Godrey de Bouillon as the city’s ruler, he received the title ‘Advocate of the Holy Sepulchre’ and established Jerusalem as the capital of the country – ‘The Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem’ and also that:

        This was the first time in over one thousand years that Jerusalem functioned as the country’s capital.

        http://www.biu.ac.il/js/rennert/history_9.html

        Is Mileikowsky/Netanyahu/Nitai a member of the Teutonic Knights, the Knights Templar, et al?

      • Marnie
        Marnie on May 20, 2015, 1:21 am

        JeffB/Ginger/Miriam 666 and other as of yet to be revealed sock puppets – let’s just see if you’ll be able to leave me the last word, as promised (doubt it. “Read. And Weep!”)

        “So after all the huffing and puffing I was right about the Christian education. Moving on.” Actually hon, I didn’t have a formal christian education so no gold star for you. As usual, you’re the only one huffing and puffing. I have stated quite clearly, more than once, that we converted. Moving on yourself. I know the Karaites, obviously. We’ve had this conversation before, considerably less polite due to the lack of moderation on the other site. You don’t accept me as Jewish. I did not take any oath of allegiance to zionism or especially the likes of you. For a number of years I’ve seen the religion I studied and chose held hostage by a very dangerous nationalist movement which has no base in Judaism at all. It is the very opposite of the religion that preaches kindness and fairness to the stranger, the fatherless, the orphan, the widow and to remember always where you came from. This thread is not about whether I’m Jewish as I claim (not by birth – have been quite clear in this regard) or your a-ha! jive regarding me. It’s about that crazy SOB in the picture above and how he and his hate-filled cohorts, are destroying the country. History does repeat itself for sure.

      • zaid
        zaid on May 20, 2015, 4:57 am

        Jeffb

        1-No my graphs does not agree with you.

        you said:

        “Palestinians speak a language that evolved from an eastern Arabian peninsula dialect of Aramaic not one of the western ones.”

        a-My graphs shows that Aramaic and Arabic are both western Semitic and not eastern as you claim (your claim is false).

        b-My graphs does not show that Arabic evolved from Aramaic (your claim is false).

        c-Aramaic has nothing to do with eastern Arabian peninsula. (your claim is false).

        d-Aramaic is also western Semitic.(your claim is counterproductive).

        https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/semitic-tree.jpg

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages#/media/File:Semitic_languages.svg

        2- I never claimed that Palestinians are pure Canaanites and it is clear in my comment.
        I believe that Palestinians have mixed racial background and they are definitely more Canaanites than modern Jews. (straw man argument).

        3-Regarding the myth of the exile and the myth of modern Jews being descendants of ancient Semitics :

        “No population remains pure over a period of thousands of years. But the chances that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient Judaic people are much greater than the chances that you or I are its descendants” shlomo sand.

        “I was not raised as a Zionist, but like all other Israelis I took it for granted that the Jews were a people living in Judea and that they were exiled by the Romans in 70AD. But once I started looking at the evidence, I discovered that the kingdoms of David and Solomon were legends. Similarly with the exile. In fact, you can’t explain Jewishness without exile. But when I started to look for history books describing the events of this exile, I couldn’t find any. Not one. That was because the Romans did not exile people. In fact, Jews in Palestine were overwhelming peasants and all the evidence suggests they stayed on their lands”. shlomo sand

        http://www.haaretz.com/general/shattering-a-national-mythology-1.242015
        http://www.rense.com/general85/myth.htm
        http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/14/whatever-happened-to-shlomo-sand/

        4-As for Jews and their origin, despite attempts to link modern Jews to ancient ones, the scientific research is drawing a different picture that emphasizes on the European origin of Jews (ashkenazi).

        5-Good that we agree that genetics is irrelevant , but unfortunately these genetic/historical myths was/is the foundation in which the estate of Israel were founded which caused/causes suffering upon Palestinians.

        6-the rest of my comment you choose to ignore.

        Stop distorting history /science.

      • JeffB
        JeffB on May 20, 2015, 11:22 am

        @Zaid

        I said Arabic came from the east not Aramaic. Your own graph has Aramaic (the language spoken in Palestine in the 1st century) being a Northwest semitic language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Semitic_languages . Your chart has Arabic not evolving from Aramaic.

        That’s the point. The languages are not continuous with one another there is a linguistic break. Now you chart doesn’t show this but Arabic evolved out of Ancient Northern Arabian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Arabian spoken in what is today Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia.

        The Arabic the Palestinians spoke did not evolve from Aramaic. And your own graph shows this. What perhaps is confusing you is the labels. So I linked above to articles defining those terms on your graph.

        I never claimed that Palestinians are pure Canaanites and it is clear in my comment. I believe that Palestinians have mixed racial background …

        The claim is they are original to the region and were there for 3000 years. That’s the thesis that your side is defending. That there is a continuous pure ethnic group directly descended from the inhabitants 2000+ years ago with little or no external breeding. If you willing to concede that no continuous ethnic group was there for 3000 years than you disagree with the BDS claim of them being indigenous in some long term historical sense. The strong claim is that Palestinians are the real Jews and the people who claim to be Jews have 0 tie to the region. Once neither one has perfect descent from the Judaeans and they are both just mixed then we can move past the whole “indigenous people” nonsense.

        As for Shlomo Sand he is full of crap. The Roman histories are loaded with references to exile as our the Jewish as are the Christian. His theory makes no sense. If Jerusalem were still standing how did the Romans come to believe they were rebuilding a new city where the ruins were in the 120s? If Jews were still living there (Aelia Capitolina) why did the Romans, Jews and Christians all agree Jews were subject to pain of death for being there? How did that belief emerge? Why do the lists of citizens have Greek names? When they are constructing the monuments to pagan gods we can still find today in Israel, how are the Romans not noticing themselves being attacked by Jews living in the area? Or pick Masada. If the Romans didn’t conquer Masada than how did the Babylonian monks establish a church there without the Jewish zealots noticing?

        People do not hallucinate wars. Can I believe that a bunch of Herodian subjects living in Palestine with no particular ties to Judaism may or may not have remained after the Jewish civilization was pushed out. Sure that’s possible. But then you still have the Jewish civilization of Palestine going into exile. What Sand is doing is using a cheap equivocation between populations and cultures where he is defining the term “Jew” to mean different things in different places.

        despite attempts to link modern Jews to ancient ones

        OK so in your theory where the ancient Jews converted off to Christianity what year exactly did another group of pagans (or where they Christians or Muslims) decide to resurrect this dead religion and join it? Where did this happen? How did they create literary continuity? How did this group of fake Jews spread Judaism all over the world?

        Good that we agree that genetics is irrelevant but unfortunately these genetic/historical myths

        I think genetics is irrelevant. History / culture is a different story. I do think people’s live on land and cultures live on land. I think there is a difference between today’s France and today’s Germany. That being said, I think all people should be invited to participate in the society whose territory they born into. The BDS movement stands firmly with the anti-colonialism and embraces permanent racism as policy. So if you are disagreeing with the division of people into natives / legitimate residents (i.e those born of the right ethnic group) and invaders / occupiers (those born to the wrong group) then you are disagreeing with BDS not agreeing with it.

        I don’t know which point of yours I skipped. Just reference it here.

        As far as the cause of Palestinian suffering. There are many. Some are Israel’s fault. But the primary one is the Palestinian delusions which you are feeding. Today the country that exists on Palestinian territory is Israel. For likely centuries to come the country that exists on Palestinian territory will be Israel. If they want to live there they need to become Israeli. These myths that they are a 3000 year old people that has always lived on the land makes them fail to understand the history of Palestine is civilizations being destroyed and replaced not continuity. They don’t help because they create a sense of false hope that is likely to lead to disaster.

        Take it from the Jews who also believed that God would rescue them from the superior forces of the Romans.

      • annie
        annie on May 20, 2015, 1:00 pm

        The claim is they are original to the region and were there for 3000 years. That’s the thesis that your side is defending. That there is a continuous pure ethnic group directly descended from the inhabitants 2000+ years ago with little or no external breeding. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-jerusalem-capital/comment-page-1#comment-769271

        “The claim”? “the thesis”? what/whose claim/thesis jeff? who, besides you, said palestinians were a “pure ethnic group … with little or no external breeding.“? according to you this is “the Palestinian delusions which you are feeding” but who’s feeding this crap? only you for the benefit of arguing against it. that’s called a strawman you little paper tiger. and a pathetic one at that.

        and you said this, right?:

        Jews obviously interbred with the European populations so that they now look European. And I don’t care about genetics. That doesn’t however mean they aren’t descendants of ancient Jews……either they are the original population or they are a mixed group formed from different waves of peoples. They can’t be both.– See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-jerusalem-capital/comment-page-1#comment-769271

        so which are they (jews)? the original population or a mixed group from different waves of people. according to you they can’t be both.

        pure ethnic group directly descended from the inhabitants 2000+ years ago with little or no external breeding. If you willing to concede that no continuous ethnic group – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-jerusalem-capital/comment-page-1#comment-769280

        in case you think anyone here is an idiot and didn’t notice how you morphed “pure ethnic group directly descended from the inhabitants 2000+ years ago with little or no external breeding” into “continuous ethnic group” i’ve got a bridge to sell you from the sahara.

        or do you plan on arguing jews do not constitute a continuous ethnic group because they are not pure nor directly descended from the inhabitants 2000 years ago with little or no external breeding? according to you — can’t have it both ways!

        see how easy this is?

        The BDS movement stands firmly with the anti-colonialism and embraces permanent racism as policy. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-jerusalem-capital/comment-page-1#comment-769280

        by all means quote them directly. they have a web site y’know. oh, you can’t. you’re content to spew paragraph after paragraph of unsourced garbage (lies) masquerading as argument. it’s no argument jeff.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 20, 2015, 12:40 pm

        Clean-up! Logorrhea on Aisle 11! What a mess!

      • just
        just on May 20, 2015, 3:10 pm

        +100, Mooser!

      • zaid
        zaid on May 20, 2015, 4:44 pm

        Jeff b

        You are an annoying person,what is wrong with you!!!do you know how to have a coherent conversation!!!why do you keep changing your points and contradicting yourself!!!

        If you don’t know about the subject and you cannot back your points with consistent references then don’t continue with the conversation.

        You wanted to prove that Palestinians are not indigenous to Palestine then ended up not only proving that Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine but actually all Arabs were originally from there and they have more legitimate claim to the land than modern Jews (ashkenazi) who as we see from genetic research that i cited have nothing to do with ancient Hebrews, and in reality are Europeans.

        Now my response:

        you said:

        “I said Arabic came from the east not Aramaic. Your own graph has Aramaic (the language spoken in Palestine in the 1st century) being a Northwest semitic language. link to en.wikipedia.org . Your chart has Arabic not evolving from Aramaic.”

        I never claimed that Arabic evolved from Aramaic……..YOU DID!!!!!!

        here is your words:

        “Palestinians speak a language that evolved from an eastern Arabian peninsula dialect of Aramaic not one of the western ones”.

        Arabic evolved from western Semitic languages which clear in the chart , and this with the similarity of Arab pre Islamic god’s with western Levant god’s is a prove that Arabs of Arabia are originally Canaanites or proto Canaanites. so they have a legitimate claim to the land were they originated from.

        And by the way the Arabic script evolved from Aramaic, and No, Palestinians spoke several languages in the1st century and not only Aramaic.

        you said:

        “That’s the point. The languages are not continuous with one another there is a linguistic break. Now you chart doesn’t show this but Arabic evolved out of Ancient Northern Arabian link to en.wikipedia.org spoken in what is today Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia.”

        Continuous what!!!! who cares!!! Palestinians adopted Arabic after the emergence of Islam (after the establishment of the caliphate),like a lot of nations including Egyptians,Algerians,Syrians,Mauritanians and even Somalians…etc

        and by the way the Arabic alphabet and pre Islamic religion came from the Nabateans who are themselves Canaanites who spoke Aramaic.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans

        check this :

        “The Aramaic script was widely adopted for other languages and is ancestral to both the Arabic and modern Hebrew alphabets.”

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language

        and this:

        “Arabic is a Central Semitic language, closely related to Aramaic, Hebrew, Ugaritic and Phoenician. The standardized written Arabic is distinct from and more conservative than all of the spoken varieties, and the two exist in a state known as diglossia, used side-by-side for different societal functions.”

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages

        you said :

        “The Arabic the Palestinians spoke did not evolve from Aramaic. And your own graph shows this. What perhaps is confusing you is the labels. So I linked above to articles defining those terms on your graph.”

        what does this have to do with your points or mine!!!! my point is that Arabic is western Semitic language and this doesn’t contradict this notion.

        you are the confused person here. You stepped on your own into mine field….blame yourself.

        having said all the Above, i have to remind you that modern Palestinians are not descendant of Arabs (of Arabia) who came to the Levant during the Islamic conquest. but are a continuation from the people who lived in Palestine through the ages and yes they mixed with others who came to this land throughout the history. and they changed their religion and language several times.

        We Palestinians don’t need to prove our link to the land just like Chinese people do not need to prove their link to china, because 1- we live here. 2- we look Semite. and even the Arabs who mixed with us upon the emergence of Islam have a link to the land since they themselves are originally western Semitics.

        it is the zionists who have to try to legitimize and prove a link to Palestine who frankly failed to do that despite several attempt to distort genetics/archaeology/history.

        Jews were never exiled from palestine and the only exile that happened to jews is the one that the palestinians endured in 1948.

        I am actually a little bit embarrassed to be talking about this origin thing since no nation on earth still do that and it is as i said irrelevant who was who thousands of years ago and the talk about genetics borders on racism but unfortunately the Zionist propaganda army forces us to go down this stupid road.

        We Palestinian want to be treated justly in our land because we belong to it and we are humans and we deserve that and that is it. and we don’t suffer an identity issue and are not in a ridiculous search for our ancestors and Islam gives race as much importance as it give to the dust on our feet.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on May 20, 2015, 5:16 pm

        “We Palestinian want to be treated justly in our land because we belong to it and we are humans and we deserve that and that is it. and we dont suffer an identity issue and are not in a ridiculous search for our ancestors and Islam gives race as much importance as it give to the dust on our feet.”

        Wonderfully stated Zaid! +100

        Respect to you Zaid and all other commentors attempting to argue with JeffB. I don’t know how you all do it. However I think it’s a dangerous game which may lead to serious brain damage or at the very least some kind of nervous disorder. There are theories that JeffB is more than one person or as Mooser says one very nutty person.

        I actually think he’s a robot! Think about it. All those hi tech industries have come up with a cyborg Internet troller preloaded with every single bit of hasbara that’s ever been written. The cyborg is programmed to respond almost instantly with these non stop unbelievably long replies which most of the time don’t make any real sense and have loads of contradictions. The cyborg’s job is to wear you down, tire you out, argue every single tiny point at length. It never stops, it’s relentless, it keeps going and going and going. The aim is to cause the poor innocent commenter on the other side to give up all hope or to induce serious brain damage

        Yes folks, this is their latest weapon and it’s being rolled out on all anti zionist sites.

        Or Mooser might be right; he might just be totally nuts.

      • annie
        annie on May 21, 2015, 12:25 am

        brilliant Zaid!

      • gamal
        gamal on May 20, 2015, 5:26 pm

        Jeff, thats a Jewish name? Actually its middle French for the old German Gottfried, so you are a middle French Old High German posing as a Jew, figures.

        All excommunicated Jews are hereby re-incorporated, it had to be a hoax, bloody Germans.

      • Shmuel
        Shmuel on May 20, 2015, 5:54 pm

        All excommunicated Jews are hereby re-incorporated

        With full honours?

      • gamal
        gamal on May 20, 2015, 6:14 pm

        “With full honours?”

        Yes Pro Rata Ad Infinitum and time served.

        Can you imagine the suffering of even temporary Gentility.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 20, 2015, 11:36 pm

        “I’ll let you get the last word in.” “JeffyB”

        Wow, c’mon, “JeffyB” you must have known you were lying when you said that.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 21, 2015, 12:37 am

        “I actually think he’s a robot! Think about it. All those hi tech industries have come up with a cyborg Internet troller”

        I don’t know, “Bornajoo”. I watch all those “How it’s Made” videos, and robots can put together cars, and assemble computers, and make chips. “JeffyB” can’t even construct a sentence, let alone put together an argument. Robots also have a “log” which records every action they take. “JeffyB” isn’t even aware he has an archive.
        He’s no robot. He’s just one very sad man.

    • JeffB
      JeffB on May 20, 2015, 3:46 pm

      @Annie

      You are right those positions you created contradict. I think you are missing the argument I made though which is a bit more nuanced so I’ll clarify by adding some language.

      1) A people can only be genetically descended from an ancient people if they severely limit breeding with external groups. For example the population of Iceland over the last 1000 years meets this criteria. Weak genetic continuity would be a population with almost any input from an original ancient people.

      2) A people can culturally descended from an ancient people if they maintain cultural continuity at each generation. That is while there can be evolution there are no sudden breaks. So for example I’ll culturally descended from revolutionary Americans even though 0% of my genetics came from them.

      3) The Palestinians claim to be genetically descended from the Canaanites (and also the Judeans). I claim (3) is impossible because we know the population of Palestine underwent massive shifts. They may have weak genetic continuity however.

      4) The Palestinians claim to be culturally descended from the inhabitants of Judaea. I claim (4) is impossible because their culture shows signs of hard breaks, particularly in the area of language.

      5) Zionists claim that modern Jews are culturally descended from Judaea. I agree with this claim. I think the documentary evidence is unambiguous on this point.

      5′) Zaid in particular was offering an alternative theory that there was no cultural or genetic continuity. That Jews with no cultural connection to Judaea created a myth around Judaea. In particular that there was no diaspora at all it never happened. I’m arguing that this version of events is far too oversimplified and falls apart due to the literary continuity.

      6) Some Zionists claim genetic continuity. I only believe in weak genetic continuity.

      6′) I believe however that if one were to measure a degree of genetic continuity with the population from Judaea, modern Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, would score higher than modern Palestinians. Though again both would score poorly this is simply a relative comparison.

      So that’s the thesis. I’m not presenting evidence in this post. I do think the Palestinian case is easily torn apart from the archeological evidence of non continuity. But I’m not doing this with you since you don’t seem to care much about ancient history nor is this one of your beefs with the Jews.

      As for BDS embrace I learned it was fashionable from Mondoweiss. I didn’t come here thinking you all were into Ernest Renan’s Republican Racism, or that it was part of BDS mythos. That was a discovery when I got here. I don’t know the source if I had to guess I think it leaked over from Arab propaganda ex: “Israelis have no history in the Land because they are Khazars, who are not connected to the land…” – Al Hayat Al Jadida, June 16, 2003. And they picked it up from Soviet anti-Zionism who got it from the Nazis. Salaita, to pick someone you are familiar with, loves to talk about how Jews are disconnected from Palestine unlike the Palestinians…

      If you here discussion of Khazars. Lots of references to Shlomo Sand or Arthur Koestler then Renan’s theory about Jews is what you are dealing with. You don’t want it to be part of BDS, you run a prominent site do something about it. I’ll point it out to you on other threads as it comes up. It is a regular theme here.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 20, 2015, 11:43 pm

        “And they picked it up from Soviet anti-Zionism who got it from the Nazis”

        Soviets and Arabs and Nazis, Oh my! Soviets and Arabs and Nazis, Oh my!

        “JeffyB”, why do your posts invariably conjure up a vision of a little wooden bird who comes out of a clock and says “Cuckoo! Cuckoo!”?

      • RoHa
        RoHa on May 21, 2015, 12:31 am

        “And they picked it up from Soviet anti-Zionism who got it from the Nazis. ”

        Actually, Lenin was condemning Zionism as “bourgeois nationalism” before the Nazis had figured out what colour shirts to wear. Did the Nazis ever condemn Zionism?

        But the Soviets were the first to recognize Israel, and stood back while the Israelis got weapons from Czechoslovakia. That’s really deep rooted anti-Zionism.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer on May 21, 2015, 12:47 am

        @Mooser

        That is an outright slur on the utility of cuckoo clocks. They can be right at least twice a day.

        JeffB, not anywhere near as frequently.

      • annie
        annie on May 21, 2015, 1:01 am

        BDS mythos. … And they picked it up from Soviet anti-Zionism who got it from the Nazis. Salaita ….

        ;) you are sooo desperate jeff.

        You are right those positions you created contradict

        actually i quoted you contradicting yourself. i’m not missing your argument, i am debunking it while easily demonstrating your hypocrisy at the same time. you on the other hand are not countering it or addressing my questions — your just engaging in diversion BS, like this:

        I’m not presenting evidence in this post. I do think the Palestinian case is easily torn apart from the archeological evidence of non continuity. But I’m not doing this with you ..

        shorter jeff:

        ‘yada yada pt #1 – #6 unsourced, diversion, evasion, and that’s my opinion.’

        got it!

        and what, pray tell, is this:

        The Palestinians claim to be culturally descended from the inhabitants of Judaea. I claim (4) is impossible because their culture shows signs of hard breaks, particularly in the area of language.

        you are a coward jeff. your argument is so weak and pathetic you’re afraid to post it under “reply” and continue to spam the thread by not posting underneath the comment you are responding to so as to create a break in the dialogue and make it difficult for people to follow the conversation.

        fyi ziad addressed this stupid allegation of yours …Palestinians adopted Arabic after the emergence of Islam – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-jerusalem-capital/comment-page-1#comment-769407

        you do not counter any arguments (nor acknowledge your hypocrisy wrt “They can’t be both.”), you just double down on your opinions. what’s good for the goose is good for the gander jeff. you got no argument. i’m not interested in speculative opinion from a robot hasbrat.

      • gamal
        gamal on May 21, 2015, 6:02 am

        Jeffrey, as a German you may not have had access to the Jewish Virtual library, link below, the point about names is that of course the Nabateans (its complicated) were Arabs/Canaanites who spoke Aramaic, how do we know they was Arabs, their names, their kings often went by “Aretas” which just the Roman for Harithat, there is no more Arab name than that, sorry.

        “According to the generally accepted division of the Semitic languages , Arabic (also called, more appropriately, North Arabic) belongs to the southwest Semitic branch, although some scholars affiliate it with central Semitic. The affinity between Arabic and Hebrew (which belongs to the northwest Semitic branch) is conspicuous and finds its reflection also in the genealogical tables of the Bible.” Much more at:

        http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/Arabic.html

      • zaid
        zaid on May 21, 2015, 8:27 am

        Jeff B

        you said:

        “A people can only be genetically descended from an ancient people if they severely limit breeding with external groups. For example the population of Iceland over the last 1000 years meets this criteria. Weak genetic continuity would be a population with almost any input from an original ancient people.”

        The physical features of modern population of Iceland is the same as they were 1000 year ago, but Jews are not, so it s neither they have weak genetic continuity(not genetic descendant as per your definition) or they have none because they are as much Semite as Obama is Chinese, and this is the case of course.

        Zionist (not you) Jews claim that they severely limited their interbreeding but then they have two problems:

        1-how to justify the physical/genetic similarity between them and their host nations.
        2-how to justify the huge physical/genetic difference between European Jews and middle eastern Jews .

        so they have a dilemma, it is neither they never significantly interbred with others which then puts them in an difficult position to justify the two points i mentioned above . or they have to admit that through time they severely intermarried with others which under your definition cannot claim to be genetically descendant from the ancient Hebrews.
        beside that if they claim Palestine due to weak genetic presence then they have to grant the Palestinians and the European whom they interbred with the same rights to Palestine. (huge number of people).

        You said:

        “A people can culturally descended from an ancient people if they maintain cultural continuity at each generation. That is while there can be evolution there are no sudden breaks. So for example I’ll culturally descended from revolutionary Americans even though 0% of my genetics came from them.”

        Unless the mountains, rivers and sand of Palestine speaks a specific language and have a certain culture or religion, Cultural continuity is irrelevant when claiming a right to a land.

        you said:

        “The Palestinians claim to be genetically descended from the Canaanites (and also the Judeans). I claim (3) is impossible because we know the population of Palestine underwent massive shifts. They may have weak genetic continuity however.”

        I was very clear from the beginning. I believe that Palestinians are not a pure race but rather the descendant of the ancient inhabitants of Palestine with influx from other nations (mostly from nations that are originally from the same place).

        the early Muslims didn’t expel anyone from their land in Palestine or anywhere else and their civilization focused on spreading the religion and not spreading a certain race…so the massive shift that you claim only happened in your mind and latter in 1948 by the zionists.

        by the way Arabia had at that time (and still) a very small population compared to the Levant or Egypt and they couldn’t dominate (by spreading population) any region because of this.

        You said:

        ” The Palestinians claim to be culturally descended from the inhabitants of Judaea. I claim (4) is impossible because their culture shows signs of hard breaks, particularly in the area of language.”

        Nonsense.!!!
        Do you really believe the rubbish you write, seriously!!!

        Have you ever heard of the Greek , Roman,Islamic Empires!!!!!
        don’t you know that these civilizations spread their culture,religion and Language.

        Do you really believe that all nations that speaks Arabic are Arabs !!!!!
        Egypt!!!!! Morocco!!!!Somalia!!!!Mauritania!!!!Algeria!!!!!
        where did the inhabitants of those countries go when Islam came , Did Islam wipe them all out!!
        And why do these nations look different from one and other and have different genetic makeups!!!!
        Do you have Evidence for what you claim!!!!

        I think it is Carl Sagan who said ” extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.

        here is an example for what i say :

        Morocco is an Arab country with an Arabic speaking population (All Arabs All Muslims).

        From:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_genetics

        “The genetic proximity observed between Moroccans and Southern Europeans is due to the fact that both these groups shared a common ancestor”

        “Recent studies make clear no significant genetic differences exist between Arabic and non-Arabic speaking populations, The human leukocyte antigen HLA DNA data suggest that most Moroccans are of a Berber origin and that Arabs who invaded North Africa and Spain in the 7th century did not substantially contribute to the gene pool”

        “The different loci studied revealed close similarity between the Berbers and other north African groups, mainly with Moroccan Arabic-speakers, which is in accord with the hypothesis that the current Moroccan population has a strong Berber background.[37]”

        Now my friend tell me how your nonsense will explain this cultural shift!!!!
        tell me how is Palestine different!!!

        You said:

        “Zionists claim that modern Jews are culturally descended from Judaea. I agree with this claim. I think the documentary evidence is unambiguous on this point.”

        To the contrary ,All scientific evidence points to the opposite.
        an the more we learn and research ,the more your theories crumble.

        You said:

        ” I believe however that if one were to measure a degree of genetic continuity with the population from Judaea, modern Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, would score higher than modern Palestinians. Though again both would score poorly this is simply a relative comparison.”

        No it wont .

        Actually Jeff when Zionist Geneticists try to prove that jews have genetic link to israel, they compare their genes to …………………PALESTINIANS AND ARABS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        and if they have similar genes they will say…..”see…. we are real jews”.

        Pathetic!!

        You said:

        “So that’s the thesis. I’m not presenting evidence in this post. I do think the Palestinian case is easily torn apart from the archeological evidence of non continuity. But I’m not doing this with you since you don’t seem to care much about ancient history nor is this one of your beefs with the Jews.”

        You dont have one.
        and what the hell is archaeological evidence of no continuity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        You said :

        As for BDS embrace I learned it was fashionable from Mondoweiss. I didn’t come here thinking you all were into Ernest Renan’s Republican Racism, or that it was part of BDS mythos. That was a discovery when I got here. I don’t know the source if I had to guess I think it leaked over from Arab propaganda ex: “Israelis have no history in the Land because they are Khazars, who are not connected to the land…” – Al Hayat Al Jadida, June 16, 2003. And they picked it up from Soviet anti-Zionism who got it from the Nazis. Salaita, to pick someone you are familiar with, loves to talk about how Jews are disconnected from Palestine unlike the Palestinians…

        If you here discussion of Khazars. Lots of references to Shlomo Sand or Arthur Koestler then Renan’s theory about Jews is what you are dealing with. You don’t want it to be part of BDS, you run a prominent site do something about it. I’ll point it out to you on other threads as it comes up. It is a regular theme here.”

        It always amazed me that Zionist refuse to address the Khazar Jewish Empire which were more than ten times the size of the ancient hebrew states and lasted half a millennia , despite the historical,archeological and genetic evidence.

        not a single word, it is like a taboo . really unbelievable.
        I think the answer is because it demolishes zionisim completely .

        I can see that you are trying to move away from genetic/origin to the so called cultural descendancy ,but sorry i don think that cultural decendancy is enough to claim palestine and it is definitely not an excuse to treat the indigenous palestinians the way israel does.

        Palestine have had large number of religions,civilization,cultures,languages before and after the jews so there is no way to justify stamping palestine with the jewish stamp.

      • just
        just on May 21, 2015, 10:24 am

        Well done, zaid.

        Thank you.

    • Kris
      Kris on May 21, 2015, 11:28 am

      Bornajoo: “I actually think he’s a robot! Think about it. All those hi tech industries have come up with a cyborg Internet troller preloaded with every single bit of hasbara that’s ever been written. The cyborg is programmed to respond almost instantly with these non stop unbelievably long replies which most of the time don’t make any real sense and have loads of contradictions.”

      This is very possible. There are robocallers in use that carry on “conversations” that are almost convincing.

      “Meet the Robot Telemarketer Who Denies She’s A Robot.” http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/12/10/meet-the-robot-telemarketer-who-denies-shes-a-robot/

      And here we learn that “Samantha West,” the robot telemarketer, isn’t a robot, she’s a computer program:
      http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/12/17/robot-telemarketer-samantha-west/

  3. just
    just on May 18, 2015, 4:14 pm

    It was an especially ugly day in Jerusalem. The Occupiers led by Netanyahu, the illegal “settlers”, and their supporters defiled the beautiful city, abused the Palestinians, and disgraced themselves.

    Meanwhile, Netanyahu and Rivlin eulogized and gave praise to the wholly despicable Levinger:

    “President Reuven Rivlin attended and was among those who eulogized Levinger, who founded the Gush Emunim settlement movement in 1974 and started the present-day Jewish community in Hebron.

    “Hebron is a sister city to Jerusalem — that is what David Ben-Gurion wrote in a letter to the people who recreated the Jewish community in Hebron and to you, the leader, Rabbi Levinger,” the president said, referring to Israel’s first prime minister.

    “It is hard to say goodbye to you,” Rivlin continued, noting the juxtaposition with Jerusalem Day, when Israelis celebrate the military victory of the 1967 Six Day War.

    “It is said that you were not a man of consensus, and that is true,” he said, according to the Ynet news outlet.

    Born in 1935 in Jerusalem to a family of German origin, Levinger studied in his youth under Rabbi Tzvi Yehudah Kook, the spiritual father of religious nationalism.

    Shortly after the Six Day War, in which Israel captured East Jerusalem and the West Bank, Levinger and a group of like-minded people decided to settle in the territory. Their goal was to create a Jewish presence in Palestinian cities which are important sites from Jewish history, such as Hebron and Bethlehem.

    In a written letter of condolence to Levinger’s family, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he was “saddened” by the rabbi’s death, also noting the symbolism of its timing.

    “Rabbi Levinger’s name will be forever linked with the movement for renewed Jewish settlement in Hebron and other areas of the country where our patriarchs walked thousands of years ago,” he said. “He was an outstanding example of a generation that sought to realize the Zionist dream, in deed and in spirit, after the Six Day War.”

    Netanyahu continued, “Our return to the holy places of our people in the defensive war and war of deliverance 48 years ago stirred our hearts. Our eternal capital Jerusalem was a united city once again. Rachel’s Tomb and the Cave of the Patriarchs, where our patriarchs and matriarchs are buried, again became centers of prayer for myriad Jews. I am proud of the fact that they are included in the government’s list of national heritage sites, given their religious and educational importance of the highest order.

    “There is great symbolism that Rabbi Levinger passed away on the eve of Jerusalem Day; he leaves behind him a well-established legacy and many students who are dedicated to taking root in our Land.”

    Rabbi Dov Lior, the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba-Hebron, said in his eulogy for Levinger that “a great deal of what we were privileged to receive in the liberation of Jerusalem is the work of Rabbi Moshe, who pushed and worked for the redemption of portions of our country,” Israel National News reported.

    Daniella Weiss, former mayor of Kedumim in the West Bank and an activist in the settler movement, said, “The rabbi taught us not to leave a single piece of land without Jews. I met many people who tried to solve the riddle of the rabbi — whether he was a man of thought or a man of action. The answer is that he was both,” she said.”

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/settler-leader-rabbi-moshe-levinger-buried-in-hebron/

    I found out from reading Kate’s compilation today that

    “Levinger openly praised the perpetrator of the Hebron massacre of 1994, Baruch Goldestein, calling him a great saint. When reminded that 29 innocent human beings were murdered by Goldestein said “I am sorry for the death of 29 flies as well.” Levinger said on several occasions that Palestinians ought to be given three choices, either enslavement by Jews as water carriers and wood cutters, or expulsion, or physical extermination.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/abolish-jerusalem-settler#sthash.I68EvzR1.dpuf

    What we saw yesterday was/is very much in line with that rabbi’s way of thinking/preaching.

    Thanks, Ben.

    • Shmuel
      Shmuel on May 18, 2015, 4:37 pm

      “Levinger openly praised the perpetrator of the Hebron massacre of 1994, Baruch Goldestein, calling him a great saint.”

      Levinger not only praised murderers, but was a murderer himself. He was a violent thug of a man, backed up by all Israeli governments, the Israeli army and the Israeli “justice” system — even when they were slapping him on the wrist.

      Someone should remind “moderate” President Rivlin of his warm words for this racist criminal who once bemoaned not having had the “privilege” of killing an Arab (referring to a man he actually had murdered), next time he goes for a photo-op in Tamra or Umm al-Fahm.

      • tree
        tree on May 18, 2015, 5:06 pm

        To expand on Shmuel’s comment about Levinger:

        In 1988, Levinger was indicted on two separate criminal charges involving events in Hebron. On September 30, 1988, Levinger, who had been hit a week before by a rock, was attacked by stoners who smashed his windshield, injuring his son. He reached an Israeli checkpoint. Levinger pulled out his pistol, turned round and went back down the streets shooting at shop windows, killing Palestinian store owner Hassan Abdul Azis Salah.[9] A customer was also wounded. Levinger claimed he had been surrounded by Palestinians who threatened his life,[9] and only to have shot into the air to defend himself against stone throwers. In a press conference following the shooting, Levinger said, “Regarding the actual deed, I will respond when the time comes. I have already said that as far as the substance of the case goes, the State Attorney’s Office knows that I am innocent and that I did not have the privilege of killing that Arab. Not that I may not have wanted to kill him or that he did not deserve to die, but I did not have the privilege of killing that Arab.”[10] He was charged with “manslaughter, causing bodily harm in aggravated circumstances and intentionally damaging property”.[11] His trial began in August 1989, despite protests by 13 right-wing Knesset members and hundreds of supporters.[12] Levinger pleaded not guilty to the charges but accepted a plea-bargain to the lesser charge of negligent homicide.[13] He was sentenced to 5 months imprisonment and 7 months suspended, of which he served 92 days.[14] During his imprisonment, he was given leave to attend a public event in Hebron.[15] On his release in August 1990, he told Israel Radio, “If I’m in a situation of danger again, I’ll again open fire. I hope that next time, I will be more careful and I won’t miss the target.”[16]

        In another case, which related to an event five months before the first, he was alleged to have assaulted a Palestinian woman and her two children after other Arab children had “made fun of” his daughter. At his trial in May 1989, the magistrate dismissed the evidence of the Arab witnesses on the grounds that they were interested parties and wanted to see Levinger in prison for ideological reasons, and also dismissed the evidence of two IDF soldiers who testified to the assault.[17] Six weeks after Levinger’s release from prison on his separate negligent homicide conviction (see above), the Jerusalem District Court overturned his acquittal on the earlier assault charges.[18] He was sentenced to 4 months imprisonment, plus an additional 10 days for an outburst in court.[19] He served about two months. On his release in March 1991, he said “Over the years, I’ve carried out dozens of actions and all of them were against the law. It was worthwhile to violate the law, as all these actions advanced the whole Land of Israel.”[20]

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Levinger

        And that’s just a portion of his criminality. A thoroughly hateful man who was coddled by the Israeli government because he was Jewish and his violence and criminality furthered racist Israeli policies.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 18, 2015, 5:11 pm

        Okay, okay Rabbi Levinger is a sociopathic thug. But he’s no “apostate”!

      • just
        just on May 18, 2015, 5:24 pm

        Thanks Shmuel and tree.

        Like I said before, “The world is rid of a very bad human. It’s a shame and a crime that he influenced so many to follow his evil ways while he was here on earth. I trust that his afterlife is already decided.”

        It’s also a telling disgrace that the “leaders” of Israel celebrated him.

      • Shmuel
        Shmuel on May 18, 2015, 5:24 pm

        Okay, okay Rabbi Levinger is a sociopathic thug. But he’s no “apostate”!

        Right about now his heavenly-court-appointed defence counsel is asking him: ‘So what part of YOU SHALL NOT MURDER didn’t you understand? If the Holy One had wanted to say “You shall not murder JEWS”, there was plenty of room left on the tablets!’

      • just
        just on May 18, 2015, 5:26 pm

        +10, Shmuel!

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 19, 2015, 10:51 am

        Shmuel, don’t get on my case. Talk to “JeffyB” about it. He’s the Lord High Excommunicator, and the Chief Preservationist.

      • Shmuel
        Shmuel on May 19, 2015, 11:00 am

        Talk to “JeffyB”

        Why on earth would I want to do that?

      • eljay
        eljay on May 19, 2015, 11:06 am

        || Mooser: … Talk to “JeffyB” about it. He’s the Lord High Excommunicator, and the Chief Preservationist. ||

        If the increasing volume and verboseness of his posts are any indication, he’s now also the Head Zio-supremacist at Hasbara Central. Congrats on the promotion, dude! :-)

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 19, 2015, 12:03 pm

        “If the increasing volume and verboseness of his posts are any indication”

        I’m not sure if “JeffyB”s posts have changed in any way. My guess is that something has hardened the Moderator’s hearts.

        JeffyB seems to be crowding the rest of them out. There’s not much for a “liberal Zionist” or a “classic Left” Zionist to say once JeffyB takes the field. Must be wonderful for actual Israelis to know they have champions like JeffyB, ceaselessly striving to enhance Israel’s glory, from the safety of the US.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 19, 2015, 12:27 pm

        “Why on earth would I want to do that?”

        Holey Maloney! Shmuel’s link is to a Mondo thread in 2013!! And there they all are, and not a one of the Hasbaratchniks has changed their tune or their approach an iota. It’s all there, including commenters being driven away.

    • Marnie
      Marnie on May 19, 2015, 2:20 pm

      @lysias –
      “All the apparent inconsistencies are resolved if we drop the assumption that it is only one person who is using the “JeffB” moniker. ” I think you’re absolutely right. JeffB has that same maiden aunt/schoolmarm tone as another troll, or is the feminine trollop or trollette?

    • jon s
      jon s on May 20, 2015, 2:47 am

      So JeffB doesn’t believe that there’s a God, and Lysias doesn’t believe that there’s a Jeff.
      Great.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 20, 2015, 10:50 am

        “So JeffB doesn’t believe that there’s a God, and Lysias doesn’t believe that there’s a Jeff.”

        @ Jonsilla:
        You haven’t got the balls to argue with “JeffyB. Never even tried to correct him.
        The “classic Left” in Israel just bends over and spreads ’em for a guy like “JeffyB”
        He’s the top in Israel, and your Left is drek, a worthless check.
        Zionism doesn’t need you, but Zionism can’t go a day without “JeffyB” . So shut up. And ask JeffyB what he wants you to do, and then do it, chump. With a smile.

        Isn’t that great, “Jon s”? A lunatic American Tea Party Zionist means more and is in closer accord with Zionism than you, a guy who lives in Israel. I hope you enjoy being “JeffyB’s” boy, “Jon s”. You were made for the job.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 20, 2015, 11:32 am

        Hey, “Jonsilla” how do you like being replaced as the resident mayven on the Jewish religion and Jewish history? After all, we know better than to take any advice from “apostates” like you.

        Nope, from now on “JeffyB” is the big-deal religion and history teacher around here:

        “Rabbinic Judaism, which calls itself “Judaism” today because there are no other forms widely practiced. Judaism being a cultural preservation movement is a religion of practice not belief.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jeffb?keyword=practice#sthash.NLtkTTyU.dpuf

        “Finally Judaism (and this is pretty much across the board, regardless of strain) is not a religion of belief, it is a religion of practice. It isn’t like Christianity where saying believing stuff matters much. It is a question of doing stuff.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jeffb?keyword=practice#sthash.NLtkTTyU.dpuf

        And what is the result of all this “practice”:

        “It might very well have been morally preferable for Jews to have just disappeared in the 2nd century. But they didn’t and they formed a system designed to last. And how they got their country back.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jeffb?keyword=practice#sthash.NLtkTTyU.dpuf

        And all without one peep from you, “Jon s” . So go back in your hole, and wait patiently until “JeffyB” gives you permission to speak.

  4. mijj
    mijj on May 18, 2015, 4:28 pm

    .. also, Jews invented the number “3”.

  5. JWalters
    JWalters on May 18, 2015, 6:31 pm

    Netanyahu doubles down on the Bible as his justification for killing and expelling non-Jews. One of the core claims in the Bible is that Jews are God’s favorite people. This enshrining of bigotry is not a lamp unto the nations, it is a plague unto the nations.

    This sanctified bigotry is used to justify predatory behavior toward non-Jews. War profiteering is the worst case. Huge war profits have funded the massive campaign of deception and emotional manipulation that has suckered Jewish Americans into rushing to the defense of these sociopathic predators. Thus these gullible innocents will suffer in the blowback. Many key historical facts, routinely covered up with lies, are given in “War Profiteers and the Roots of the War on Terror.”

    Jewish Americans need to find out the facts and free themselves from the bondage of those who worship the golden war. Netanyahu is from the financial community, and understands his job is to keep provoking conflict.

  6. Bornajoo
    Bornajoo on May 18, 2015, 6:47 pm

    “The world is rid of a very bad human. It’s a shame and a crime that he influenced so many to follow his evil ways while he was here on earth. I trust that his afterlife is already decided.”

    Well said Just!

    (Unfortunately still quite a few bad humans left)

  7. Kay24
    Kay24 on May 18, 2015, 6:54 pm

    It is pathetic that the zionists must keep re-writing history to support their on going occupation and land grabs. Here we see the head of the zionists trying hard to convince the world that what they steal is actually theirs. This wonderful article by Prof. Cole gives us facts about who really founded Jerusalem and the history afterwards. The zionists are liars, thieves, and keep justifying their endless crimes by quoting biblical verses and changing history, just to keep their crimes acceptable. Lame.

    Who does Jerusalem belong to?
    http://www.juancole.com/2015/05/does-jerusalem-belong.html#comment-323232

    • just
      just on May 18, 2015, 7:09 pm

      Thanks for linking to Prof Cole’s excellent article, Kay24!

      (I had just finished reading it)

    • JWalters
      JWalters on May 18, 2015, 7:39 pm

      Another thank you for linking to that excellent article. The world needs a flood of facts to ward off the lies of the war profiteers.

      • Kay24
        Kay24 on May 19, 2015, 8:19 am

        You are welcome, Just and JWalters.

        Unfortunately, the majority do not bother to do some research and find out the truth.

        Especially in the US, the zionists bank on the fact that the media owned by their minions, will keep doing the American people disservice by not getting experts to dispute the lies spewed by those zionists. For them, the less the American people know about the real facts, the better to keep the charade going.

      • annie
        annie on May 21, 2015, 1:30 am

        thanks kay. just read your excellent history of jerusalem link.

    • JeffB
      JeffB on May 19, 2015, 12:24 am

      @Kay24

      The Juan Cole article misses huge important chunks of Jerusalem’s history like Aelia Capitolina. It is far from factual. FWIW Jews don’t claim to be the original inhabitants of Jerusalem. This is the semi-official timeline: http://www.tod.org.il/en/exhibition/permanent-exhibition/ .

      • Walid
        Walid on May 19, 2015, 12:00 pm

        Timeline-wise, it’s obvious that the Arab/Moslems are the ones that held on to Jerusalem the longest. Religiously though, the Moslem claim is just as authentic as the Judaic one.

      • JeffB
        JeffB on May 19, 2015, 2:38 pm

        @Walid

        Timeline-wise, it’s obvious that the Arab/Moslems are the ones that held on to Jerusalem the longest

        I’m going to nitpick a bit but I agree with you that the Muslims have a real claim that needs to be honored.

        OK now onto to details. In terms of max time I’d give it to the Pagans. :) But unless they throw their hat in the ring I’ll grant you more time than the Jews. But I’m rare that way since I don’t think there was a 1st temple and most Jews do. Most Jews are going to say about 1400 years and then Jews narrowly win.

        traditional view:
        Jews: 1300 BCE – 69 CE + 1967-2015 = 1417 (for me it is about 717)
        Pagans: 3000 BCE – 1300 BCE + 69 CE – 313 CE = 1944 years(I’d put it at around 2000 BCE – 600 BCE +… ) so 1644)
        Christians 313 CE – 638 CE + 1099-1244 (some breaks) +1914-1948 = 504
        Muslims: 639 – 1099 + 1244-1914 + 1948-1967 = 1149 years

        Regardless the Muslims and Christians have a legitimate claim. IMHO the Jews seems like a nice neutral 3rd party between Christian and Muslims so even if I weren’t Jewish I think the Jews make sense from a geo-political standpoint. A Christian / Muslim religious war is far more dangerous to the world that almost any other potential conflict. And the Christians are getting refocused on the temple and the 2nd coming again.

        Religiously though, the Moslem claim is just as authentic as the Judaic one.

        It is. The issue is that for Muslims Jerusalem is a secondary site it was never of anywhere near the level of importance it was for Jews. Jerusalem for Judaism is arguably more important than Mecca for Islam. I think you all are more on par with conventional Christians, though for Christian Zionists it is far and away #1.

        Me personally if I were dictator of Israel and we have to have a temple I’d go for the Samaritan solution say the temple goes on Mount Gerizim and grant the Muslim’s sovereign authority over Al-Aqsa (including right to issue visas…). I’m willing to fight a war for Jerusalem. I’m not willing to fight a war for Al-Aqsa. Moreover I have a tough time believing Jews actually want to go back to mass religious animal sacrifices. So I kinda like the Al-Aqsa being there, it gives us a religiously acceptable out. I would fire the Waqf Ministry though and put someone who less of an ass in charge. Al-Aqsa needs to be a site in Israel, and that means the Israeli government needs to be able to work with them on issues like: security, transportation, safety…

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 19, 2015, 4:19 pm

        “Me personally if I were dictator of Israel….”

        You’re not? Gosh, from the way you talk, I never would have guessed. I thought you were all that and a Chef Rabbi into the bargain.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on May 19, 2015, 6:53 pm

        “Religiously though, the Moslem claim is just as authentic as the Judaic one.”

        Using the internationally recognized RoHa Scale for Holiness, we have established that the Muslim claim is much stronger.

        http://mondoweiss.net/2011/04/no-brainer-temple-mount-is-holier-to-us-than-them-so-its-ours#comment-306303

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 20, 2015, 11:34 am

        ” I’m willing to fight a war for Jerusalem.”

        From SoCal? Yeah, okay “JeffyB.”

      • annie
        annie on May 21, 2015, 1:41 am

        Jews seems like a nice neutral 3rd party between Christian and Muslims – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-jerusalem-capital/comment-page-1#comment-769420

        ??? nice? neutral? 3rd party between Christian and Muslims? what are you smoking dude?

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer on May 21, 2015, 1:56 am

        @Annie
        “??? nice? neutral? 3rd party between Christian and Muslims? what are you smoking dude? – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-jerusalem-capital#comment-146712

        Thank you! I forgot I read that.

        In all fariness though who else would you want to determine which zealots would attack civilians aided by police or occupation forces.

        Neutral as my ass after 500 heads of cabbage.

    • Kay24
      Kay24 on May 21, 2015, 6:59 am

      Lol Oldgeezer, that was quite descriptive. The world did see just how “nice” the Jews can be in Gaza last year…nothing seems to satisfy them, they are given an inch, and they take miles and miles by theft.

  8. JLewisDickerson
    JLewisDickerson on May 18, 2015, 7:35 pm

    RE: the photo of Netanyahuhu ttending the Jerusalem Day celebration at the Mercaz Harav yeshiva in Jerusalem

    MY COMMENT: I can’t help but notice that the way Netanyahu is often obviously/visibly flanked by a couple of security guards is quite characteristic of authoritarian regimes and their “despotic control”*.

    * DESPOTIC CONTROL – http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/shields-adelson-foreign#comment-763336

    • JLewisDickerson
      JLewisDickerson on May 18, 2015, 7:48 pm

      P.S. RE: “authoritarian regimes and their ‘despotic control’” ~ me (from above)

      SEE: “Security officers, driver for LV Sands CEO file lawsuits alleging violations of overtime law”, By Steve Green, VegasInc.com, June 11, 2011

      [EXCERPT] . . . [Israeli-born] Zohar Lahav, vice president for executive protection for the company [i.e., Sheldon Adelson’s Las Vegas Sands], was also named as a defendant.

      The suit says Ness, a former Secret Service officer assigned to the White House who received overtime pay in that job, was well acquainted with the obligation of employers to pay overtime to qualified and eligible employees.

      The suit says that when Ness confronted Lahav about this, Lahav angrily replied to the effect: “I don’t care what the law says! You work for me. I don’t pay overtime.”

      Ness was eventually singled out, discriminated against and ultimately fired for his request for overtime, which the lawsuit alleged was unlawful retaliation under the Fair Labor Standards Act.

      He was also fired for raising “concerns about the violation of other laws,” including Lahav’s insistence that Ness and others carry and transport firearms in violation of state law, that they transport a large bag of pharmaceutical drugs in foreign nations and that they operate an unregistered X-ray screening machine without appropriate health, safety and security safeguards, the suit alleges.

      “Although Lahav stated that Ness was being fired for countermanding a policy directive, that was simply a pretext,” the suit charges.

      “Ness was terminated because he raised serious questions regarding the violation of federal and state laws which the defendants in general — and Lahav in particular — viewed with disdain and contempt and he refused to engage in the requested illegal conduct,” the suit charges. . .

      ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.vegasinc.com/business/legal/2011/jun/11/lawsuits-accuse-lv-sands/

    • Marnie
      Marnie on May 19, 2015, 5:29 am

      He’s afraid the people will love him to death maybe?

      • JLewisDickerson
        JLewisDickerson on May 19, 2015, 10:37 pm

        Actually, I think Netantahyu is pretty much a megalomaniac who ‘gets off’ (in the psychological sense) on always having a highly visible security entourage.

        SEE: “Bibi: Israel Will Raise ‘David’s Sword’ Against Iran” ~ By Richard Silverstein, Tikun Olam, 9/28/11

        [EXCERPT] . . . But the most interesting and frightening element of the interview was his [Netanyahu’s] comments about Iran. Other reporters have been noting that Bibi lately has been waxing apocalyptic and mystical about the possibly oncoming war with Iran. In this interview he says:

        Iran’s nuclear programs are turning it into an existential danger to the State of Israel. The question is not just what Israel is doing to stop it, but what the world is doing. The awareness by the world community that Iran is progressing on a track toward developing a nuclear weapon obligates it to act so that Iran does not get this weapon. With every day that passes, Iran gets closer. The obligation of the international community to act grows as the fear [that Iran progresses toward a bomb] does.
        You must keep in mind: that we aspire toward peace; but at the same time we must wield the sword of David to defend the Jewish State.

        Of course, in Bibi’s skewed world-view, David’s sword was raised only to defend his people, not in aggression against a victim. But we should keep in mind that David’s sword slew an Israelite enemy and led to the killer’s annointment as King of Israel. . .
        . . . Bibi (and to a lesser extent, Barak) have a very complicated complex that is little short of messianic and frightening. In the past, I’ve written dismissively about Bibi saying he has no principles and that even his so-called Jewish values appear to be manufactured. Now, I’m not so sure. And I don’t know which is worse, a megalomaniac with no principles or values; or a Jewish megalomaniac with religious-nationalist principles and values. They both scare the living hell out of me. . .

        ENTIRE COMMENTARY – http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2011/09/28/bibi-israel-will-raise-davids-sword-against-iran/

  9. Nevada Ned
    Nevada Ned on May 18, 2015, 9:07 pm

    I first heard of Rabbi Levinger when the journalist Alex Cockburn wrote about him many years ago. Looks like a religious extreme nationalist.

    I know the situation is serious, and not funny. But still….did you see in the material above where Rabbi Levinger studied under another Jewish fundamentalist, Rabbi Kook?

    Yes, that was his real name. Rabbi Kook.

    I know it sounds like a character in a bad novel.

    But that was his real name.

    Why?

    Because he was one.

    A kook.

    Levinger and Kook were two excellent arguments in favor of atheism.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on May 19, 2015, 12:06 pm

      “Levinger and Kook were two excellent arguments in favor of atheism.”

      Really? Well, where would you place “JeffyB” on the advertisement-for-atheism scale? He claims to be (along with his wife!) an atheist, and found Orthodox Rabbis easy to fool.

      • JeffB
        JeffB on May 19, 2015, 10:58 pm

        @Mooser

        That’s a lie and quite offensive to boot. Cut it out.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus on May 20, 2015, 1:50 am

        JeffB,

        Really, you are invaluable! I’m so happy I didn’t skip this comment of yours as I of course do all other interminable regurgitations.
        So you are complaining of “lies” and something being “offensive”?
        You, the.. I can’t say the inventor, of course, but surely the most conspicuous practitioner of both.
        There should be some limit, no?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 20, 2015, 11:10 am

        “That’s a lie and quite offensive to boot. Cut it out.”

        Really? As far as I’m concerned it’s pretty much fardinen a mitzveh. What do you plan to do about it?

  10. italian ex-pat
    italian ex-pat on May 19, 2015, 9:56 am

    I’m ashamed to confess I haven’t yet learned how to ‘link’ to an article. It might be easier with a computer, but I’m using a tablet.

    Anyway, I just wanted to direct anyone interested to an op-ed in today ‘Comments’ section of the NYT, by (of all people) a former head of the US Jewish Congress, Henry Siegman, denouncing Israel in general and Netanyahu in particular for their opposition to a Palestinian State. It may be true that the Times is too soft on Israel, but publishing this op-ed would seem to contradict that. Too bad it’s not open for comments by readers – probably knowing it would be bombarded by accusations of anti-semitism and poor Henry of being a self-hating Jew.

  11. JimMichie
    JimMichie on May 19, 2015, 11:06 am

    Whom Does Jerusalem Belong To?

    Posted on May 18, 2015

    By Juan Cole

    Far right Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu commemorated Israel’s “Jerusalem Day” with a speech in which he said, “Jerusalem was always the capital of the Jewish people only, and no other,” and warned that Muslim terrorism menaced it.
    Jerusalem, Daru Shalem, was founded sometime between 6500 and 5500 years ago, by the proto-Canaanite people long before Judaism existed. It was dedicated to the god of dusk, Shalem.
    The first mention of it was after 2000 BC, again, before Judaism existed, in an Egyptian text.
    So I think we may conclude that the City of Shalem the god of dusk was probably the capital of a lot of peoples long before there was any religion called Judaism.
    Roughly 1500-1200 BC, Jerusalem was ruled from Memphis in Egypt by the pharaohs, but the Canaanites remained their proxies.
    Petty Canaanite kings continued to dominate the region after Egyptian control lapsed. Some of them over time gradually adopted practices later associated with Judaism, but many other streams of Canaanite belief remained. Probably there were petty tribal chieftains named David and Solomon after 1000 BC, but Jerusalem appears not to have been populated 1000 to 900 BC. and so they didn’t have a palace there.
    Whatever the character of the various Canaanite tribal confederations in Palestine, including the proto-Israeli, in 900-770 BC, in the latter year the region fell to the Assyrians.
    In 597 BC the Babylonians conquered Palestine and later transported at least some of its population to Babylon. Likely it was there that the Jewish religion became fully elaborated.
    In 539 BC, Babylon falls to the Iranian Achaemenid Empire, which emancipates the Jews. The Achaemenids rule most of the civilized world, from Egypt to what is now Pakistan. Palestine is ruled by Iran for nearly 200 years, until 330, when Alexander defeats the Achaemenids.
    The Greek Ptolemaic dynasty held sway over Palestine until 198 BC, when the Seleucids conquered it.
    In 168 the Maccabean Revolt established a small Jewish state in the area. Aside from the Israeli clans of the pre-Assyrian period, this was the only premodern Jewish state to have Jerusalem as a capital. Even so, they were vassals from 40 BC to the Iranian Parthian empire. Herod became a vassal of the Romans in Palestine in 6 of the Common Era (AD).
    Jerusalem was Roman/ Byzantine until 614 CE, when the Iranian Sasanid Empire again conquered it.
    In 629 the Byzantines took it back.
    The Muslims conquered Jerusalem in 638 and ruled it until 1099, when the Crusaders conquered it it. The Crusaders killed or expelled Jews and Muslims from the city.
    The Muslims under Saladin took it back in 1187 CE and allowed Jews to return.
    So I think probably Jerusalem was the capital of, like, the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem. for several decades.
    Muslims then ruled it until the end of World War I, or altogether over a millennium.
    So Iran ruled Jerusalem altogether for some 250 years, and the Crusaders for about 200 years, and it was the capital of lots of peoples, including Canaanite kingdoms and the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. It was also often a provincial capital under Muslim empires.
    In the Sykes-Picot agreement between France and Britain during WW I, which shaped the Middle East, Jerusalem was awarded to Russia.
    Lenin was outraged when he found the agreement in the Romanov palace after the 1917 October Revolution, and he had it published. He withdrew Russia from the war and forewent the prize of Jerusalem.
    The city was awarded the British by the Versailles Peace Conference, as part of the British Mandate of Palestine.
    In the 1947 UN General Assembly partition plan for Palestine, Jerusalem was designated a “Separate Body” to be administered internationally. It was not awarded to Israel by the UN. Although propagandists for Israel are always going on about how they accepted the UN partition plan, they did not, of course. They conquered a lot of territory that the GA did not award them, including West Jerusalem.
    It was Jewish settlers in British Mandate Palestine who used violence to grab part of the city, disregarding international law and agreements. The city was mostly populated by Palestinians in any case, what with being a Palestinian city and all.
    In 1967 the Israeli army took East Jerusalem, and ever since has squeezed the Palestinian population, driven them into poverty, usurped their property, and surrounded them by squatter settlements. There is no warrant in any part of any international agreement or law for the Israelis to behave this way toward the people who inhabited Jerusalem for over a millennium (and who are in any case almost certainly descendents of Palestinian Jews who converted to Islam). Violence is still a big part of the way Israel rules East Jerusalem, so Netanyahu warning of Muslim violence is rich.
    Muslims consider Jerusalem the third holiest city of Islam. Despite Westerners constantly telling them they have no right to do that, they seem pretty attached to the doctrine. There are 1.5 billion of them, and their nerves are raw after centuries of Western colonialism during which they were told their religion was useless and backward. The occupation of Jerusalem was given by al-Qaeda as one reason for its attacks on New York and Washington, D.C. The insistence of Jewish extremists on angering the Muslim world by invading the Aqsa mosque from time to time, and threatening to demolish it, is like those old Warner Bros. cartoons where the foolish little boy keeps teasing a tiger in its cage.

    • zaid
      zaid on May 19, 2015, 3:37 pm

      +1 jim

    • Mooser
      Mooser on May 19, 2015, 5:31 pm

      “It was dedicated to the god of dusk, Shalem.”

      Having a “God of dusk” is a very good idea. I thoroughly approve.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on May 20, 2015, 12:33 pm

        Dusk was amazing yesterday. This far north, the dusk is very, very long in the spring-summer months. It can last almost all night. And yet the thought of deifying the dusk never even occurred to me! Well, those dark days are over and I’ve seen the twilight? It’s a new dawn of…geez, that won’t work either.

  12. michelle
    michelle on May 19, 2015, 1:25 pm

    .
    Israel alone
    Israel alone
    Israel alone
    alone
    alone
    alone
    .
    .
    .
    this is an abuse of Jewish people
    this is anti-whateverism
    .
    G-d Bless
    .

  13. Marnie
    Marnie on May 20, 2015, 1:50 am

    JeffB/GingerE/Miriam666

    “Just stop claiming to be what you aren’t. You want to be the resident Israeli you need to know Israel. You want to claim to be a Jew you need to know Judaism.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bQnxlHZsjY

  14. aiman
    aiman on May 20, 2015, 5:04 am

    Thanks for stating the truth, Mr Netanyahu, and making liberal Zionists squirm even you both are equally adept at “mowing the lawn”. You are indeed the king of all Zionists. You should be heard by all men and women so we can thrust full-scale economic sanctions on your entire so-called country and all tribal enterprises abroad that aid you and foment war to profit your state and cause panic/pain/poverty and death for “unworthy” innocents.

  15. Accentitude
    Accentitude on May 20, 2015, 7:08 am

    So Netanyahu believes that according to history, that Jerusalem was established as the Capital of the Jews….and THEN they built the state state of Israel around it to justify its role as a “capital”. I go where the Embassies are. Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. No one who isn’t Israeli disputes that.

    • JeffB
      JeffB on May 20, 2015, 11:46 am

      You mean other than the USA? Under USA law “Since 1950, the city of Jerusalem has been the capital of the State of Israel.” http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Embassy_Act_of_1995

      • eljay
        eljay on May 20, 2015, 12:04 pm

        || JeffB: … Under USA law “Since 1950, the city of Jerusalem has been the capital of the State of Israel.” link to en.wikisource.org ||

        And, yet:

        Embassy of the United States, Tel Aviv

        . . . There is controversy surrounding the Tel Aviv location of the United States embassy because … [the] United States does not recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

      • annie
        annie on May 20, 2015, 12:24 pm

        Under USA law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Embassy_Act

        not, which is why the law has never been implemented.

        Constitutional separation of powers[edit]

        Under the Constitution of the United States the President has exclusive authority to recognize foreign sovereignty over territory.[23] The Justice Department Office of Legal Counsel concluded that the provisions of the Embassy Relocation Act inveighed exclusive presidential authorities in the field of foreign affairs and are unconstitutional.[24]
        U.S. presidents Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and now Barack Obama have alluded to or explicitly stated the belief that Congressional resolutions attempting to legislate foreign policy infringe upon the Executive’s authority and responsibility to carry out sound and effective U.S. foreign relations.
        Regarding the status of Jerusalem specifically, President Bush had deemed Congress’ role as merely “advisory”, stating that it “impermissibly interferes with the President’s constitutional authority”.[25] The U.S. Constitution reserves the conduct of foreign policy to the President and resolutions of Congress, such as the ones found in the Authorization Act of 2003 that included the Jerusalem Embassy Act’s provisions, makes the arguments in favor of legislating foreign policy from Congress extremely problematic if not arguably invalid for that Constitutional reason.

        so sad for israel we have 3 branches of government and their only in full control of one of them.

      • JeffB
        JeffB on May 20, 2015, 2:35 pm

        @Eljay (and Annie)

        Wikipedia is oversimplifying. They are also missing news, which is unusual for them. The 1995 included a provision allowing the president to issue a 6 month waiver if they felt it was in the USA’s interests. Every president has issued a waiver every 6 months. Which clearly was not Congressional intent.

        There have also been several bills to repeal the president’s authority to issue 6 month waivers.
        this term: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/114/text
        last term: https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/2846
        etc…
        These have failed before and this one might fail again, hard to tell.

        There is a test case is before the Supreme Court to determine whether the President’s waivers do anything other than waive moving the embassy:
        http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/zivotofsky-v-kerry/
        wikipedia provides a so-so summary of the status: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zivotofsky_v._Clinton
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zivotofsky_v._Kerry

        Here is a legal brief covering the broader issues: http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1500&context=ilj

        In summary. The MW position is that the president has sole authority (I love how the MW liberals are taking positions to the right of Dick Cheney on these separation issues) In Zivotofsky v. Clinton (2012) the Supreme Court held that to be false. The Court finds this is a legal and not merely a political question.

        This is a nasty case for the courts. I think most people including the court don’t want the court being the decider here. Ultimately if they decide for the President they massively expand executive power at a time when it runs amok. The convert the President from a mere agent of Congress, though one who by necessity been given a great deal of discretion to a sovereign. If they decide for Congress they potentially trigger a foreign policy crisis over some 12 year old’s passport. As Kerry’s lawyer put it, ““It won’t be one branch of the United States government saying that this should happen. It will be two branches of the United States Government saying it should happen.Foreign governments, foreign peoples will not be able to have complete confidence that the position that the president announces on behalf of the United States is, in fact, the position of the United States.” Which FWIW I think it absolutely true. The President’s position become untenable.

        They could decide the case narrowly. Kennedy seems to have a weird compromise in mind: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/supreme_court_dispatches/2014/11/supreme_court_zivitofsky_v_kerry_case_can_a_u_s_passport_call_jerusalem.single.html

        Anyway you can go back to the character attacks and other such nonsense that characterizes BDS. But the fact is at the very least the Secretary of State’s attorney in his argument indicated he believes that Congress recognizes Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel.

  16. JeffB
    JeffB on May 20, 2015, 6:34 pm

    @Zaid

    I’m going to move this out to a new thread.

    You are an annoying person,what is wrong with you!!!do you know how to have a coherent conversation!!!why do you keep changing your points and contradicting yourself!!!

    I think what’s wrong from my perspective is you are getting confused regarding terminology. I think you are actually agreeing with my factual points and seeing a disagreement where there isn’t one. More on that below.

    You wanted to prove that Palestinians are not indigenous to Palestine

    I wanted to prove that Palestinians are not descended from Canaanites. My argument is they are mostly descended from a broader group of Levant people that freely circulated throughout the Levant. I also think that there was a mass migration to the Levant (and thus to Palestine) during the 7th and 8th century which completely transformed the culture.

    then ended up not only proving that Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine but actually all Arabs were originally from there

    Ah no. The Arab population is mainly from the eastern Arabian peninsula.

    and they have more legitimate claim to the land than modern Jews (ashkenazi) who as we see from genetic research that i cited have nothing to do with ancient Hebrews, and in reality are Europeans.

    You are using an inconsistent definition of “from Palestine”. But the Jewish thing is going to come down to the diaspora. You deny the Roman-Jewish wars and there is no connection for European Jews.

    “I said Arabic came from the east not Aramaic. Your own graph has Aramaic (the language spoken in Palestine in the 1st century) being a Northwest semitic language. link to en.wikipedia.org . Your chart has Arabic not evolving from Aramaic.”

    I never claimed that Arabic evolved from Aramaic……..YOU DID!!!!!!

    Actually I said the opposite. My key point that you are agreeing with is that Arabic did not evolve from Aramaic. That’s critical because I’m asserting that Aramaic was the language spoken in Palestine in the 1st century. Arabic is the language of the Palestinians. If there was a language change that did not result from evolution, then you are very likely looking at either a population replacement or a mass immigration of another group.

    here is your words:
    “Palestinians speak a language that evolved from an eastern Arabian peninsula dialect of Aramaic not one of the western ones”.

    That is correct I did say that.

    Arabic evolved from western Semitic languages

    And here is where you are getting confused. You are mixing up a geographical classification of where things are on the Arabian peninsula with a linguistic one of where things are relative to the entire family of languages the semites spoke. Armenia is in West Asia, it is also east of most places in Europe.

    Let’s try this without east or west references. You tell me where you disagree.

    1) There was a family of Syro-Palestinian languages which included Aramaic.
    2) Modern Standard Arabic evolved from Quranic Arabic which evolved from “Ancient North Arabian”
    3) Ancient North Arabian was spoken in what is today Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia. It was not spoken in Palestine. Ancient North Arabian did not evolve from Aramaic nor did Aramaic evolve from it.
    4) Modern day Palestinians speak a dialect of Modern Standard Arabic

    ergo you had a language flip in Palestine at least once between the Aramaic speaking culture and the Arabic speaking culture.

    Palestinians spoke several languages in the1st century and not only Aramaic.

    I would agree there was also quite a bit of Greek. But I assume you meant something else. So your floor.

    Continuous what!!!! who cares!!!

    That’s the entire debate you joined. Ask Abuadam why he cares so much.

    Palestinians adopted Arabic after the emergence of Islam (after the establishment of the caliphate),like a lot of nations including Egyptians,Algerians,Syrians,Mauritanians and even Somalians…etc

    OK now in your theory was there a population migration from the east? If not how did this happen and why?

    having said all the Above , i have to remind you that modern Palestinians are not descendant of Arabs (of Arabia) who came to the Levant during the Islamic conquest

    That’s the point in question. We are disagreeing on this. I’m arguing that the language flip is one of the key pieces of evidence proving the mass migration. If you want to argue a mass migration didn’t happen then you need to explain the language flip. And for that matter the conversion to Islam.

    and they changed their religion and language several times.

    And how did that happen?

    We Palestinians doesn’t need to prove our link to the land just like Chinese people don’t need t prove their link to china, because 1- we live here. 2- we look Semite

    You are the one who jumped into a debate where that was the point in question. You don’t want to prove that’s fine. But I’m not going to accept it given all the evidence to the contrary.

    and even the Arabs who mixed with us upon the emergence of Islam have a link to the land since they themselves are originally western Semitics.

    They do not have a link to Palestine. If you are going to disqualify the Jews for interbreeding with Europeans than the same logic applies to the Palestinians. Either you make a claim for racial purity or you don’t.

    Jews were never exiled from palestine and the only exile that happened to jews is the one that the palestinians endured in 1948.

    I gave you a bunch of questions regarding your theory in the last post you didn’t answer. If there is no exile you have a lot of history to explain away.

    I am actually a little bit embarrassed to be talking about this origin thing since no nation on earth still do that

    I agree it is embarrassing. I think anti-colonialism is disgusting racist. We don’t disagree on this point.

    and it is as i said irrelevant who was who thousands of years ago and the talk about genetics borders on racism but unfortunately the Zionist propaganda army forces us to go down this stupid road.

    No it doesn’t. One could just accept something like the USA definition. That anyone born is America is legitimately American. Then essentially all the Israelis, Jews and Palestinians, born in Israel are legitimate Israeli and this racist crap goes away. But as long as you want to talk about “indigenous” vs. Zionist then you go right into the racist muck. That’s not my doing.

    We Palestinian want to be treated justly in our land because we belong to it and we are humans and we deserve that and that is it.

    I agree with you on being treated justly. No argument there. I believe that everyone born in Israel deserves to be treated justly and that Israel should be an inclusive identity. I’d love it if (and when because I think the Israeli-Arabs are doing this) Palestinians sought to become Israeli and join the society fully as equals. I’d love if 150 years from now most Israelis are descendants of both Palestinians and Jews. You aren’t contradicting Zionism in asking for equality you are embracing it.

    You want to talk about negotiating sane sensible win-win joint solutions I agree with you. You may want to talk about living together in peace and justice, I agree with you. But that’s not BDS. BDS is about the quest for “justice” for past wrongs and not living in a peaceful just society of mutual benefit. BDS is about destroying Israel not making it a good society for both people. And when you get down to it, the whole point of the thread you jumped in on was a BDS apologetic about how the untermensch (Jews) and their weisse jude allies (Christian Zionists) need to be defeated to avoid the rassenschande that Zionism aims to create in Palestine. The very concept of BDS is Jud Süß that by engaging in trade on equal terms with Jews (whom they call Zionists) the pure peoples of the rest of the world get morally polluted…

    You are obviously offended by racism. You believe it is a good thing when disparate groups interbreed and form one joined people, what the BDSers think of but wouldn’t directly call rassenschande. You are taking pride in interbreeding / rassenschande when it comes to Palestinian history, rejecting their whole thinking (even if we are disagreeing a bit on that history). Then drop the vestiges of racism which require you to deny obvious history and instead embrace the multiple cultures that formed Palestine.

    Islam gives race as much importance as it give to the dust on our feet.

    Agreed Islam rejects race. Islam has a terrific track record on issues of racial equality. Better than any other major religion. But Pan-Arabism, Ba’athism and liberal anti-colonialism makes race central to the identity. And because of this BDS makes race central to its thinking. That’s your side not ours.

    You seem like a better person than your philosophy.

    ___

    Anyway hopefully this makes clear the point on Aramaic and Arabic.

    • Walker
      Walker on May 20, 2015, 11:03 pm

      JeffB:

      1) Palestinians speak a language that evolved from an eastern Arabian peninsula dialect of Aramaic

      zaid:

      1-Arabic is a western Semitic language

      JeffB:

      Look at your own graph. Where is the tree for Aramaic. Where is the branch for Arabic. Your graph agrees with me.

      zaid:

      I never claimed that Arabic evolved from Aramaic……..YOU DID!!!!!! . . . Arabic evolved from western Semitic languages which clear in the chart

      JeffB:

      Actually I said the opposite. My key point that you are agreeing with is that Arabic did not evolve from Aramaic.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on May 21, 2015, 12:01 am

      “And because of this BDS makes race central to its thinking. “

      No “JeffyB”, just central to yours.

      (Ach! These cases of scribendi furiouso and monomania associated with the Ziocaine Syndrome are so sad.
      Er drayt sich arum vie a fortz in russell)

    • zaid
      zaid on May 21, 2015, 12:19 pm

      Jeff B

      Let it go Jeff….Just let it go.

      You said:

      “I wanted to prove that Palestinians are not descended from Canaanites. My argument is they are mostly descended from a broader group of Levant people that freely circulated throughout the Levant. I also think that there was a mass migration to the Levant (and thus to Palestine) during the 7th and 8th century which completely transformed the culture.”

      Evidence please??

      Actually it is easy to distinguish between eastern and western Semitic people through language,script and religion. and Arabs (of Arabia) and Palestinians are clearly western Semitics (Canaanites or proto Canaanites). and that is why i showed you the language tree from the beginning.

      You said:

      “Ah no. The Arab population is mainly from the eastern Arabian peninsula.”

      Not true, but even if it was true …what is your point….you cannot deny that they are originally from the west of the Levant…..check the language tree/religion/genetics.

      By the way most of the Arab population of Arabia reside in the west like Mecca,Medina,Tabuk Madaen saleh,Jeddah,Najran…etc and the eastern part grew by population only after the discovery of oil.

      You never get anything right do you!! it is like you are missing on purpose!!

      You said:

      “I said Arabic came from the east not Aramaic. Your own graph has Aramaic (the language spoken in Palestine in the 1st century) being a Northwest semitic language. link to en.wikipedia.org . Your chart has Arabic not evolving from Aramaic.”

      Are you Squint!!!!!

      I said Arabic evolved from western Semitic language.look at the chart……… W……E……S…….T put the letters together you will have ……………..WEST

      Why do you keep mentioning Aramaic!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      “Actually I said the opposite. My key point that you are agreeing with is that Arabic did not evolve from Aramaic.”

      I swear by Allah, Jesus,Muhammad, Buddha,Zeus ,Thor and Michael Jackson THAT I DONOT BELIEVE THAT ARABIC EVOLVED FROM ARAMAIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      You said:
      ” That’s critical because I’m asserting that Aramaic was the language spoken in Palestine in the 1st century. Arabic is the language of the Palestinians. If there was a language change that did not result from evolution, then you are very likely looking at either a population replacement or a mass immigration of another group.”

      Or simply they embraced it because of the Islamic caliphate.
      Like dozens of countries.

      Do you really believe that all nations that speaks Arabic are Arabs !!!!!
      Egypt!!!!! Morocco!!!!Somalia!!!!Mauritania!!!!Algeria!!!!!
      where did the inhabitants of those countries go when Islam came , Did Islam wipe them all out!!
      and what about the Christians in the middle east where did they come from!!!!! and why do they look exactly like their Muslim countrymen!!!!!!
      And why do these nations look different from one and other and have different genetic makeups!!!!
      And how could Few Arabs from the scarcely populated (desertland of arabia) populate and dominate the entire middle east!!!!!
      Are you telling me that because they speak Arabic Sudanese,Eritreans and Somalians are originally from Arabia and not from Africa and their black skin is just a coincidence!!!!!
      Do you have Evidence for what you claim!!!!

      I think it is Carl Sagan who said ” extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.

      here is an example for what i say :

      Morocco is an Arab country with an Arabic speaking population (All Arabs All Muslims).

      From:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_genetics

      “The genetic proximity observed between Moroccans and Southern Europeans is due to the fact that both these groups shared a common ancestor”

      “Recent studies make clear no significant genetic differences exist between Arabic and non-Arabic speaking populations, The human leukocyte antigen HLA DNA data suggest that most Moroccans are of a Berber origin and that Arabs who invaded North Africa and Spain in the 7th century did not substantially contribute to the gene pool”

      “The different loci studied revealed close similarity between the Berbers and other north African groups, mainly with Moroccan Arabic-speakers, which is in accord with the hypothesis that the current Moroccan population has a strong Berber background.[37]”

      Now my friend tell me how your nonsense will explain this cultural and linguistical shift!!!!
      tell me how is Palestine different!!!

      You said:

      “And here is where you are getting confused. You are mixing up a geographical classification of where things are on the Arabian peninsula with a linguistic one of where things are relative to the entire family of languages the semites spoke. Armenia is in West Asia, it is also east of most places in Europe.”

      WTF is this!!!!!!!!!!!!

      @bornajoo
      I think your cyborg is overheating…………..maybe the fan is broken.

      You said:

      “1)There was a family of Syro-Palestinian languages which included Aramaic.”

      ooooh my god Aramaic again!!!!!

      Yes my Khazar friend, there was, and Arabic evolved from this family of WESTERN SYRO-PALESTINIAN languages.

      “2) Modern Standard Arabic evolved from Quranic Arabic which evolved from “Ancient North Arabian””

      No, wrong again………… modern Standard Arabic IS Quranic Arabic.

      Yes Ancient North Arabian is the mother of Quranic Arabic and itself evolved from SYRO-PALESTINE languages.

      “3) Ancient North Arabian was spoken in what is today Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia. It was not spoken in Palestine. Ancient North Arabian did not evolve from Aramaic nor did Aramaic evolve from it.”

      Usually palestine is included in the word Syria. but anyway even if it wasnot ..what is your point.

      “4) Modern day Palestinians speak a dialect of Modern Standard Arabic”

      Really….I didnot know that !!!!!!!!!! i thought we speak Frensh

      “ergo you had a language flip in Palestine at least once between the Aramaic speaking culture and the Arabic speaking culture.”

      Due to the spread of Islam and probably gradually since Aramaic and other languages are still used in Palestine and Syria.

      You said:

      “Palestinians spoke several languages in the1st century and not only Aramaic.

      I would agree there was also quite a bit of Greek. But I assume you meant something else. So your floor.”

      Arabic was present (south of palestine, Negev and in the west bank) though not wide spread.

      You said:

      “OK now in your theory was there a population migration from the east? If not how did this happen and why?”

      No there wasnot.
      from where would the Arabs bring all the people to populate the middle east!!!! and what happened to the indigenous people.

      You said:

      “That’s the point in question. We are disagreeing on this. I’m arguing that the language flip is one of the key pieces of evidence proving the mass migration. If you want to argue a mass migration didn’t happen then you need to explain the language flip. And for that matter the conversion to Islam.”

      early Islamic caliphate spread it.

      You accept that people converted to islam through time, but you cannot accept that people changed their language through time!!!!!

      You said :

      “and they changed their religion and language several times.

      And how did that happen?”

      Same way Christianity,Judaism,Buddhism spread.
      Same way Islam spread in Syria,Egypt Africa and Indonesia…are they all Arabs

      Gradually through time they adopted Arabic and Islam. encouraged by the caliphate (promoted).

      nations change language and religion !!!!!!!what is the problem.

      In Africa a lot of nations speaks french and have western names and religion………can you explain why??????

      You said:

      “You are the one who jumped into a debate where that was the point in question. You don’t want to prove that’s fine. But I’m not going to accept it given all the evidence to the contrary”.

      No i just responded to your question to abuadam

      “What evidence do you have that any population continuously inhabited Palestine for 2500 years? What ties do you have between today’s Palestinians and the Canaanites?”

      You said about Arabs:

      “They do not have a link to Palestine. If you are going to disqualify the Jews for interbreeding with Europeans than the same logic applies to the Palestinians. Either you make a claim for racial purity or you don’t.”

      Arabs have link to Palestine more than Jews could dream of and Palestinians are the Ultimate owners of Palestine. as proven by their religion,language,physical looks and genes.

      But I am not making claim to the land based on my genes, I claim the land just like Chinese claim china and Nigerians claim Nigeria.

      It is zionist like you who invaded my land on the pretext of claimed ancestry who are doing that.

      You said:

      “If there is no exile you have a lot of history to explain away.”

      No i dont.

      A Canaanite looking man like George Habash , Khaled Mechaal, or Marwan Barghouthi who lives or where expeled from Palestine during the Nakba, doesnot need to prove anything to anyone.

      Just like Jakie Chan doesnot need to prove he is from Honk Kong and just like Mandela never needed to prove he is from Africa.

      It is European looking people with blonde hair and blue eyes like Tzepi Levni and Ayalet Shaked who need to prove that they are Semites and not us.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marwan_Barghouti#/media/File:Marwan_Barghouti.jpg

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Mashal#/media/File:Khaled_Meshaal_01.jpg

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Habash#/media/File:George_Habash.jpg

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayelet_Shaked#/media/File:AYELET_SHAKED.jpg

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzipi_Livni#/media/File:Tzipi_Livni_Conference_f.JPG

      Dont you people have eyes..seriously!!!!

      Imagine Japanese people invading Gabon or Ivory Coast and claiming that they are returning to their ancestors land , and claiming that they were black before, but with intermarriage they changed!!!!!!!! and then expel the Black nations of Gabon and Ivory coast because they are actually from France because they speak French.

      I am not making this up…. Gabon and Ivory coast speaks french.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ivory_Coast
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Gabon

      I am sure Jeff will explain this language Flip to us.

      You said:

      “You want to talk about negotiating sane sensible win-win joint solutions I agree with you. You may want to talk about living together in peace and justice, I agree with you. But that’s not BDS. BDS is about the quest for “justice” for past wrongs and not living in a peaceful just society of mutual benefit. BDS is about destroying Israel not making it a good society for both people. And when you get down to it, the whole point of the thread you jumped in on was a BDS apologetic about how the untermensch (Jews) and their weisse jude allies (Christian Zionists) need to be defeated to avoid the rassenschande that Zionism aims to create in Palestine. The very concept of BDS is Jud Süß that by engaging in trade on equal terms with Jews (whom they call Zionists) the pure peoples of the rest of the world get morally polluted…”

      !!!!!!!!!!rassenschande !!!!!!!Jud Süß!!!!!!!!!!weisse jude………

      ………………….Nice He is speaking ARAMAIC now???

      You said:

      “Agreed Islam rejects race. Islam has a terrific track record on issues of racial equality. Better than any other major religion. But Pan-Arabism, Ba’athism and liberal anti-colonialism makes race central to the identity. And because of this BDS makes race central to its thinking. That’s your side not ours.”

      The Arab League defines an Arab as:

      ——–An Arab is a person whose language is Arabic, who lives in an Arabic-speaking country, and who is in sympathy with the aspirations of the Arabic-speaking peoples———-

      Even the bathists and pan arabist are not searching or trying to establish a mythical ancestry to steel other people lands.

      Finally you said:

      “Anyway hopefully this makes clear the point on Aramaic and Arabic.”

      F*ck You

      • eljay
        eljay on May 21, 2015, 12:57 pm

        || zaid: Jeff B Let it go Jeff….Just let it go. ||

        zaid, Jeff “morality=goal+methods” B is a hard-core Zio-supremacist and MW troll/spammer, and he has clearly found which one(s) of your buttons to push. He’s toying with you, and you’re expending a lot of energy (and, it seems, accumulating much frustration) responding constructively to his taunts.

        You might have to be the one to let it go, if only for your own sanity. Peace. :-)

      • zaid
        zaid on May 21, 2015, 2:55 pm

        @eljay

        Actually i was laughing while writing.

        but you are also right maybe i should ignore his trolls.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo on May 21, 2015, 3:33 pm

        Good advice eljay!

        Zaid, you are arguing using excellent logic, reason and factual evidence against a zionist robot! Do you remember the Terminator? He will keep coming back and back, relentlessly with his endless hasbara trolls. In my opinion you must do yourself a favour and ignore this robot/nutcase (jury still out on that one)!

        You deserve a few medals for the effort though!

      • Walid
        Walid on May 21, 2015, 3:13 pm

        Zaid, the language spoken at Maaloula is NOT the language spoken by Jesus; but this is a well-kept secret to keep the tourists coming. The language of Jesus wasn’t even the Syriac, as pretended by the Lebanese Maronites, but that too is a bogus marketing ploy. Jesus spoke a form of Aramaic that has since become extinct. Jesus wouldn’t have understood what the people of Maaloula are saying.

      • eljay
        eljay on May 21, 2015, 3:22 pm

        || zaid: @eljay Actually i was laughing while writing. … ||

        It’s good to know he wasn’t succeeding at driving you insane. :-)

  17. Mooser
    Mooser on May 21, 2015, 12:11 am

    “I think anti-colonialism is disgusting racist.” “JeffyB”

    Sure, just like Roe vs. Wade, and all those Civil Rights laws. Ruined everything in America!

    I’m moving this to a new thread….” “JeffyB”

    Because you just stepped in it good and hard, over Jerusalem’s recognition by the US “by law” as Israel’s capital?
    And you’re still taking that insufferable officious and condescending tone? “JeffyB” I gotta ask you, are you nuts?

  18. Mooser
    Mooser on May 21, 2015, 12:25 am

    The USA is free because not merely because of our values but because of our military providing a shield to the west. We can be free because the CIA is murdering Al-Qaeda in Pakistan. Israel can be free because through violence and terror Hamas and al-Aqsa Martyrs were stopped. I want a democratic Israel. But I know that the only currency that you can pay for land in is blood. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jeffb?keyword=intermarriage#sthash.azdKM2n3.dpuf

    There’s some prize JeffyB for ya, a golden oldie from the vault. Of course, it’s not JeffyB’s blood at stake, but what would Israel do without altar knockers like JeffB? Ah, how blessed is Israel, with friends like JeffyB calling for blood.

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