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In Israel/Palestine, Jewish attackers are arrested, Palestinian suspects are shot

Israel/Palestine
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If you are Palestinian, expect to be killed by Israeli forces at any time, even if you are an Israeli citizen. Reasons for the killing are not important. It is enough to be Palestinian in order for soldiers or police to feel that your death is trivial, especially considering that individuals are rarely, if ever, held accountable. To justify the killing, members of the Israeli forces may simply claim that the attacker tried to stab someone. Claims are not disputed by their superiors or anyone in government, irrespective of evidence to the contrary provided by human rights organizations, including international ones.

Attacking someone with a knife can be dangerous. However, in most of the recent cases in which Palestinians were killed, lives were not under immediate threat, justifying the use of lethal force. Under the UN Code of Conduct for Law Enforcement Officials of 1979: “[T]he use of firearms is considered an extreme measure. Every effort should be made to exclude the use of firearms.” The UN Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials similarly affirm, “intentional lethal use of firearms may only be made when strictly unavoidable in order to protect life.” Accordingly, the extrajudicial killings, like the ones regularly taking place against Palestinians, are in violation of international standards.

On Friday, 9 October 2015, 29-year old Isra’ ‘Abed from Nazareth was killed by Israeli police at Al-Affoulah bus station in Israel. After the killing, footage emerged showing Isra’ holding an object in her hand while surrounded by heavily armed police, who then shot at her repeatedly. A few days earlier, a video showed 19-year-old Fadi Alloun being chased by Israeli settlers and then killed by police in Jerusalem. In both videos it was clear that neither Isra’ nor Fadi posed an imminent threat to the lives around them at the time of their killing. Fadi was attempting to escape from settlers who were taunting him, and was apparently seeking the protection of the police when he was killed. Isra’ was pointing an object at the group of police from a distance.

In both videos, it is clear that lethal force was not necessary to control the suspect. Notably, no other means to apprehend were used before their killing.

Other examples of Palestinians killed by Israeli forces after they allegedly tried to stab soldiers include: the case of 21-year-old Anas Taha who was killed on 9 August 2015 near the village of Kharbatha Al-Mesbah in Ramallah; the case of 25-year-old Muhammad Amshah from Kufr Ra’i in Jenin who was shot dead at a checkpoint north of the West Bank city of Nablus on 17 August 2015; and the case of a 19-year-old woman named Hadil Al-Hashlamon who was killed on 22 September 2015 at a checkpoint called “56” in Hebron. Unfortunately, this list goes on.

According to Al-Haq’s investigations, in none of the above mentioned cases did the alleged attackers pose an imminent threat to the lives of the soldiers or other individuals in the area. Except in the case of Anas Taha who had attacked a settler and caused him light injuries, no one was injured. Even in this case, Anas was shot dead by soldiers who came to the area approximately ten minutes after the attack had taken place. They shot him dead from a distance while he was sitting on the ground and pointing the knife he used toward the sky. In all cases, suspects could have been easily controlled and arrested by the well-equipped Israeli soldiers or police.

In contrast to the treatment of Palestinian suspects is that of Israeli Jews who carry out attacks against civilians. On 9 October, an Israeli stabbed four Palestinian workers in Dimona,  a town in southern Israel. Two of them sustained moderate injuries while the others suffered minor injuries. The attacker was arrested by the police. Based on past experience, perpetrators of such crimes against Palestinians receive very lenient, if any, sentences. The murders of the Palestinian Dawabsheh family, for example, are known to the Israeli military but according to Moshe Ya’lon, Israeli Minster of Defence, they were not arrested in order to protect the military’s source of information.

On 30 July 2015 an extremist Israeli Jew, Yeshai Shlissel, stabbed six persons during a gay pride parade organized in Jerusalem. Two of the six were seriously injured, and one died from her wounds a day later. Israeli police controlled the attacker and arrested him. Notably, the attacker had just been released from jail, after serving a sentence for stabbing individuals at a gay pride parade 10 years prior.

The common denominator among Isra’, Fadi, Anas, Muhammad and Hadil is that they are all Palestinians. Even Isra’, who holds an Israeli citizenship, is Palestinian. Yeshai and the other attacker in Dimona are both Jews.

It has become clear that Israel is operating under a practice of shoot to kill Palestinians and ask no questions later. The murder of Palestinians is justified with the simple unfounded claim that he or she attacked using a knife. More broadly, when Palestinians are killed at protests, in their homes in Gaza, or on the street by Israeli forces (all of which we have seen in the past two weeks), there is rarely a transparent and impartial investigation as to whether the killing was legitimate.

The recent wave of incitement against Palestinians will make it even easier for settlers and Israeli soldiers and police to kill Palestinians and simply claim that it was justified. Given how well-armed settlers are, and Israeli government encouragement of force against Palestinians, we should all be deeply concerned for what may come.

About Tahseen Ellayyan

Tahseen Ellayyan is the head of the Monitoring and Documentation Department at Al-Haq, an independent Palestinian non-governmental human rights organisation based in Ramallah that was established in 1979 to protect and promote human rights and the rule of law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

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90 Responses

  1. John O
    John O
    October 15, 2015, 12:20 pm

    Are tasers issued to anyone in Israel?

    • thedirtydemocrat
      thedirtydemocrat
      October 18, 2015, 3:48 pm

      Naw it’s more fun killing than stunning for Zionazis. Besides the ammo is free from USA included in each shipment.

    • Mivasair
      Mivasair
      October 18, 2015, 3:52 pm

      Yes, for sure, there are tasers and many other non-lethal methods. Israel police have them, the border patrols have them. They prefer to kill. It is thought to serve as a deterent. Netanyahu’s government recently instituted the new policy of shooting to kill even stone throwers.

  2. a blah chick
    a blah chick
    October 15, 2015, 12:44 pm

    “The murders of the Palestinian Dawabsheh family, for example, are known to the Israeli military but according to Moshe Ya’lon, Israeli Minster of Defence, they were not arrested in order to protect the military’s source of information.”

    That whole “official” explanation stinks to high heaven. Ya’laon made it at a get together of Likud youth, not at a press conference. It seemed (to me) that the “announcement” was delivered in a very off hand way, as if they were putting out the word that they were no longer investigating but at the same time wanted some plausible deniability.

    Then there is the reason for not pursuing the killers (“we have to protect our sources.”) That has got to be the lamest excuse for protecting killers since that FBI agent ran interference for Whitey Bulger. Pul-leeeze! What do you have sources for if you’re not going to use them! My guess is that the killers are being protect for some other reason, possibly because their well connected.

    One more point, hasbarists always go on about how morally superior Israeli Jews are, how they would never tolerate terrorists or baby killers in their mist. Well do you see any settlers giving up the Duma killers?

    • John O
      John O
      October 15, 2015, 1:58 pm

      “My guess is that the killers are being protect for some other reason, possibly because their well connected”

      My guess is that the “source(s)” and the killer(s) are one and the same.

      • a blah chick
        a blah chick
        October 15, 2015, 3:20 pm

        “My guess is that the “source(s)” and the killer(s) are one and the same.”

        That’s the theory that I’m leaning towards, but it still begs the question of why the security people would continue to shield them after such a terrible crime. If the source(s) knew of the attack but didn’t inform anyone then they can’t be trusted. If they didn’t know then how valuable are they? The IDF and the shin bet like to use the settlers as another arm of the occupation but even they must know that allowing them to emolate people is only going to cause trouble.

        Maybe I’m over thinking this and it’s all just another example of racist cluelessness.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 16, 2015, 8:07 pm

        @jo-abc
        just pretend that the three young (as the PA calls their own militants: youths) right-wing extremist Israelis being held in administrative detention for the foreseeable future don’t exist. Perhaps they are suspected of being the killers but there isn’t enough evidence to convict yet. Maybe talking about what the Shin Bt knows would tip off other right-wing Jewish parties. Or maybe these 3 know who committed crime but refuse to talk. The point is you don’t know and you act is if nothing has been done.
        When a Palestinian suspect is held in administrative detainee you cry “racist, supremacist, thug, and many more names then that. When Jews are held Israel is ‘doing nothing’

      • thedirtydemocrat
        thedirtydemocrat
        October 18, 2015, 3:50 pm

        Not really. They are the “brown shirts” of the Zionist gummint.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius
      October 15, 2015, 2:32 pm

      Exactly. One of the most tired hasbara lines is how ‘Palestinians celebrate baby killers, but in Israel (wherever that is, but never mind) the rule of law applies’. In fact, close to the opposite is true.

      I remember at the time of the arson attacks, the excuse being put forward by all the hasbara brigade was – yes, this is awful, but a) the attacks were not commit by the state but by ‘bad apples’ and b) all ‘moderate’ Israeli condemn it, and c) unlike in ”Arab countries” these killers will be arrested and face justice. None of the above is actually true. On the contrary, as many of us predicted at the time, once the initial media interest had moved on, the ‘search’ for the arsonists would be quietly abandoned. As indeed has happened.

  3. amigo
    amigo
    October 15, 2015, 2:01 pm

    Can you imagine the furor if “Jews “were gunned down in cold blood and those responsible claimed they were in danger so the suspect had to be “neutralised” .Nothing personal, just protecting ourselves from Jewish Israelis who historically , have a blood lust for murdering Palestinians.

    The media would be rife with suggestions as to how the suspect could have been controlled and arrested.No need to have shot him/her.We would never hear the end of it.

    Damn hypocrites.

    • pinnihakohen
      pinnihakohen
      October 16, 2015, 11:42 am

      If someone was coming at me with a knife, I’d be darned grateful if a nearby policeman gunned my assailant down. Wouldn’t anyone? And if someone were coming at me with a cleaver, and I had a gun, I don’t think I’d hesitate to shoot him.

      • italian ex-pat
        italian ex-pat
        October 16, 2015, 7:42 pm

        If I am a Palestinian and a Jewish settler comes at me with a cleaver, I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot him, either. Problem is, I DO NOT have a gun as I am not allowed to own one. And I doubt that a nearby policeman would come to MY defense.

    • thedirtydemocrat
      thedirtydemocrat
      October 18, 2015, 3:54 pm

      The “Jews” are not really Jews. They are Zionists that play Jews with the dreadlocks to make them look religious.
      They are no more Jews than I am God.

  4. Kay24
    Kay24
    October 15, 2015, 5:41 pm

    Joke of the day:

    Netanyahu calls Abbas a liar.

    Look who is talking. The man with the cartoon bomb. Heh.

  5. DaBakr
    DaBakr
    October 15, 2015, 10:16 pm

    thats right….expect to be shot for ‘no reason whatsoever’ except yielding a large knife and thrusting it not any bystander that can be stabbed. The running away -or after another victim- and possible getting shot. either wounded minority, moderately and dead. All three are reasonable actions to take when being chased by a raving lunatic -frustrated or not- 13-15 or 20s-30s or not with a large knife able to sever arteries and kill.
    Of course if you choose to believe Palestinian media outlets, Abbas, or and numerous Palestinian propagandists you absolutely ‘KNOW’ that those zionist ‘scum’ photoshopped ALL the dozens of videos and footage of numerous attacks with knives. Or you believe that Israelis shot and killed the 13 year old who stabbed-amongst others-a 13 year old chubby boy riding his bike. And of course-there is no incitement or lies coming from Abbas and his cronies at all.
    And happily-for MW readers-the Obama DoS has gone along with the Palestinian narrative or at least blamed Israel for ‘inciting’ attacks for changing a “status quo” that was never changed.

    But hey. We all get that in this conflict-upas down, right is left and wrong is right. Obama is in a fantasy land if he believes that pushing a 2-state solution is the way to push the two sides towards talks.

    and and fyi- there is an essay by an [asinine] Israeli JP ‘analyst’ claiming that before Obama’s second term and before Assad started killing his own people that the entire Syrian war could have been avoided if Israel was simply willing to return the entirety of the Golan to Assad who-get this-would in turn sever ALL ties with Iran, Hezbollah and Russia. If Obama and his State Dept. really believed that Assad could be trusted to keep his word-turn against his long time client Russia and Iran-let alone Hezbollah- they are complete nincompoops. First_israel will never return “ALL” of Golan so what ‘all’ means to Assad is a big question. Trusting a man -along with his wife and other close family- who initiated the slaughter of 100,000s of innocent men, women, children and historic treasures as well to maintain the Assad clan smarmy grip on power is not the man one should trust very far. Incremental? Possibly but the story went:
    before the ‘spring’ Assad told the US that Iran was “ok” as was Putin but it must be an immediate unconditional return of all Golan. Right. And two-three weeks later he up and decided the best way to deal with the small pockets of unrest was to bomb the sht out of his people.
    Imagine had Israel not taken out the reactor and Assad had that trump card up his sleeve.

    • Kris
      Kris
      October 15, 2015, 11:21 pm

      Why do you think that the Palestinians should accept the “status quo” of ethnic cleansing, occupation, and the pointless cruelty that Israeli Jews have perfected to almost an art form?

      I am always thinking about the many Palestinian students who lose their scholarships to study at universities abroad because the Israeli Jews won’t let them travel. Such amazing and unnecessary cruelty, who would imagine that anyone could do such a thing to young people starting out in life with their fragile dreams?

      The lives of my children have been so enriched by their excellent educations; when I imagine the heartbreak of those Palestinian students and their families over their lost opportunities, I begin to cry. The joy of being notified of the scholarships! And then the despair because of the pointless cruelty of Israeli Jews.

      I would never be able to forgive the destruction of my own children’s hopes, and yet the Palestinians are expected to accept this and so much more pain and destruction and loss at the hands of the Jewish Israelis.

      The Jews at the Warsaw Ghetto resisted, there were resistance movements all over occupied Europe during WWII, and it seems reasonable that the Palestinians are resisting, too. No doubt the Nazis didn’t like the methods the resistances used then, either.

      • Kris
        Kris
        October 15, 2015, 11:47 pm

        Is kids stabbing other kids a good strategy of resistance? Probably not. But it should be no surprise to anyone that people who are robbed of all hope will lash out in their overwhelming pain and despair.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 16, 2015, 11:41 am

        Anotherwords, they don’t even have the light sporting arms and pistols we consider it our right to own and use if ‘she done me wrong.’ Or if Grandma turns her back.
        Nobody will convince me the Palestinians are violent.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 16, 2015, 8:21 pm

        your just changing the subject to a different issue. and for sure your point is about a much larger issue then the current stabbing lunatics. I am sure you know very well that the “status quo” that I mentioned and that Abbas, Obama, Kerry and US DoS are talking about is the accusation that Israel has changed the rules for the Temple Mount. It has done no such thing. Jews were never banned from the sight except by Jordan and other Arab Muslims. Jews were, however, not permitted to openly pray there. And they still are not. But the extremist Arabs are constantly harassing Israeli Jews and Christians as well as some tourists who are doing nothing more but wandering around the plaza and if they are somehow contemplating prayer but silently-its ridiculous for Muslims to be outraged.
        No action has been taken by Israel that hasn’t been in the interests of preserving the Muslim control and well being of the mosques. Unconfirmed but generally acknowledged storied abound about a cell of ultra right-wing nut cases who wanted to bomb the mosques to ‘hasten’ rebuilding a 3rd temple but Israel stomped it out and the Arabs continue to react to any/every Jew on the mount as if they were coming to blow up the mosque. Its total BS. Netanyahu just reiterated last week that NO MK’s are to set foot in the compound. That IS the status quo referred to as “the cause” of the current violence-not the morality of the entire i/p conflict.

        and btw-the warsaw ghetto uprising is a pathetic analogy. the jewish inhabitants by that time were sick and mostly starving to death. Nobody was having babies either. The Palestinians have a healthy economy in the WB , their infrastructure is growing massively and so is personal wealth. The birth rate is very high as well. Its actually a pretty disgusting analogy but then you already knew that.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 16, 2015, 8:51 pm

        An FYI to any who are under the impression that it is easy for private citizens to own and carry arms within Israel you are sorely mistaken. It is MUCH harder to get a permit to own a handgun in Israel then the US and it takes a long time with psych eval. and safety courses. And this goes for ex-IDF as well. And whats more-if an Israeli citizen shoots an attacker they had better be damn certain the attacker was about to kill them or you’ll probably go to jail. In fact-if you kill an attacker and it was justified self-defense you can still get into big trouble if you shoot and kill with gun.

        And don’t be so foolish as to think the PA and its spawn: Fatah don’t have huge stashes of guns that could easily be made available to the new ‘knife shahids’ . But think about it…
        If the Palestinians started blowing up buses and restaurants again they would lose all credibility while charging youths with the task of knifing down “zionist supremacist Israelis’ is a public relations coup for the PA. The entire Arab world sees this as ;little kids standing up to the brutal IDF. Just like 100s of so-called journalists push, jockey and shove to take the next ‘beautifully framed, cropped and colourful ‘ photo of a ‘youth’ throwing stones, slinging a stone. biting a disheveled IDF soldiers hand. Its all a big PR -international press/ NGO andante legal game now. That is one fundamental difference between intifada 1 and 2 and now.

      • Kris
        Kris
        October 16, 2015, 10:24 pm

        @DaBkr:

        and btw-the warsaw ghetto uprising is a pathetic analogy. the jewish inhabitants by that time were sick and mostly starving to death. Nobody was having babies either. The Palestinians have a healthy economy in the WB , their infrastructure is growing massively and so is personal wealth. The birth rate is very high as well. Its actually a pretty disgusting analogy but then you already knew that.

        Only people who are starving to death are allowed to resist their oppressors? Israel famously put the people of Gaza on a “diet” designed to barely exceed starvation levels https://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-starvation-diet-gaza/11810 , maybe figuring that if they weren’t dying of starvation, they would have no reason to resist Israel’s jackboot on their necks?

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 16, 2015, 10:39 pm

        “In the Gaza Strip, a high proportion of people suffer from obesity. “Only 18% to 25% of the Strip’s residents have a normal weight,” he said. “The rest are suffering from obesity because of the nature of our life pattern, in addition to the unbalanced social lifestyle, bad eating habits, food traditions and dessert consumption.”

        Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/03/gaza-palestinan-obesity-diseases-diet-fitness.html#ixzz3omyn3muF

        Starvation or even hunger does not seem to be an issue.

      • annie
        annie
        October 16, 2015, 10:50 pm

        jon, i have been to gaza. if 75% of the people there were obese i would have noticed. do you seriously believe this?

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 16, 2015, 11:12 pm

        Annie,
        I have never been to Gaza. Al Monitor is not known for being terribly pro Israel.
        The expert quoted in the article is not from the health ministry, but is a dietician in the area.

      • annie
        annie
        October 17, 2015, 12:21 am

        allegedly a dietician from the area – yes i know i checked out their lame website. i’m done with your trolling.

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 17, 2015, 12:02 am

        @ Jon66 ““In the Gaza Strip, a high proportion of people suffer from obesity”

        Why are Israel’s apologists so pathetically ignorant?

        FACTS: (I know you hate ’em)
        Obesity can be caused thru malnutrition https://www.google.com/search?q=Obesity+can+be+caused+thru+malnutrition

        https://www.google.com/search?q=poor+sanitation+and+malnutrition Malnutrition can be caused thru poor sanitation

        https://www.google.com/search?q=Israel%20attacked%20sewage%20infrastructure poisoning the well, an old war strategy, also used by the US in Iraq

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 17, 2015, 12:14 am

        Talknic,

        Did you read either the EI article or the Al monitor one? The EI article says that Israel restricted total calories. Malnutrition can contribute to obesity, but inadequate calories do not. The EI article speaks about restricted calories, but does not have any data about malnutrition within the population.

        The Al Monitor article blames the obesity on poor food choices due to customs, etc. It does not mention malnutrition as being a cause.

        Your Google searches are not relevant to either the original post or my response.
        Malnutrition may be a cause of obesity, but there is no evidence that is the case in Gaza.

      • annie
        annie
        October 17, 2015, 12:19 am

        It does not mention malnutrition as being a cause.

        so what? are you seriously arguing nutrition is not a problem in gaza? some fresh water would be nice for starters. you’re such a troll jon.

      • Kris
        Kris
        October 17, 2015, 12:11 am

        Obesity in the U.S. indicates poverty, not adequate nutrition. In Gaza, where the quality of the food available is restricted by Israel, this is also no doubt the case.

        …This review focuses on the relation between obesity and diet quality, dietary energy density, and energy costs. Evidence is provided to support the following points. First, the highest rates of obesity occur among population groups with the highest poverty rates and the least education.

        Second, there is an inverse relation between energy density (MJ/kg) and energy cost ($/MJ), such that energy-dense foods composed of refined grains, added sugars, or fats may represent the lowest-cost option to the consumer.

        Third, the high energy density and palatability of sweets and fats are associated with higher energy intakes, at least in clinical and laboratory studies.

        Fourth, poverty and food insecurity are associated with lower food expenditures, low fruit and vegetable consumption, and lower-quality diets.

        A reduction in diet costs in linear programming models leads to high-fat, energy-dense diets that are similar in composition to those consumed by low-income groups. Such diets are more affordable than are prudent diets based on lean meats, fish, fresh vegetables, and fruit.

        The association between poverty and obesity may be mediated, in part, by the low cost of energy-dense foods and may be reinforced by the high palatability of sugar and fat. This economic framework provides an explanation for the observed links between socioeconomic variables and obesity when taste, dietary energy density, and diet costs are used as intervening variables. …http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/79/1/6.full

      • YoniFalic
        YoniFalic
        October 17, 2015, 1:03 am

        My sister and I no longer speak. After Operation Cast Lead I gave the question a lot of thought and concluded that any of the Jewish invader population is a legitimate target anywhere within Palestine either in the OT or within the Green Line.

        I told my sister that I could not fault the Palestinian that killed her and that she should leave.

        Approximately 70% of Israeli Jews have passports from another country. (We were born with American citizenship.) Unfortunately, my sister still suffers from Israeli school indoctrination and believes the crap that Jews returned to their homeland by stealing Palestine from the Palestinians.

        Racist Jews with no legitimate claim whatsoever invaded Palestine with the explicit goal of 19th century style genocidal colonialism in which the natives are either destroyed or driven out and replaced by Europeans and favored non-Europeans.

        Racist Jews put the genocide plan into operation in 1947-8.

        Racist Jews have been carrying out slow-speed genocide (Shulamit Aloni’s term) ever since with occasional outbursts of slaughter like Operation Cast Lead or Operation Strong Cliff.

        I can view the issue several ways.

        The Jews in the country they invaded and settled are like the Germans that invaded and settled in E. Europe during 1940s. Defining some of the invaders as protected noncombatants cannot be allowed as a means to stymie the resistance.

        The Jews in Israel and the OT are like the Algerian Pieds Noirs. Defining some of the invaders as protected noncombatants cannot be allowed as a means to stymie the resistance.

        The Jews in Israel are the beneficiaries of genocide committed and ongoing post Auschwitz and post International Ant-Genocide Convention. Defining some of the invaders as protected noncombatants cannot be allowed as a means to prevent undoing the results of genocide.

        The Jews are waging a demographic war in which native women and children are favored targets. (The T-shirts distributed during Operation Cast Lead still disgust me.) Killing invader women and children is proportionate response when jus in bello is not respected.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 17, 2015, 10:01 am

        Am I the only one here who thinks Yoni’s justification of infanticide makes me “uncomfortable”?

      • annie
        annie
        October 17, 2015, 1:02 pm

        no

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 17, 2015, 2:04 am

        Jon66 “Did you read either the EI article or the Al monitor one? “

        Yes. Newspaper articles

        Here … some facts http://www.who.int/hac/crises/international/wbgs/oPt_Review_of_nutrition_situation_June2005.pdf

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 17, 2015, 11:47 am

        Yoni, I sure like having you around here. And now I know what makes “Jon s” run.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 17, 2015, 11:53 am

        “then the current stabbing lunatics.”

        Anybody else in the world, except for the Palestinians, would have sold their eyeteeth for weapons, or literally sold the country to ally with a more powerful force. And all the young men would be going abroad for military training, instead of school, and weapons would be pouring into the country.
        I think they must be one of the most peaceful peoples in the world. I never really thought about it till last week, I just figured Palestinians were much like anybody else. But when I thought about it, no, they are almost miraculously peaceful given the circumstances.

        And you are complaining about rocks and kitchen knives?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 17, 2015, 1:20 pm

        “Am I the only one here who thinks Yoni’s justification of infanticide makes me “uncomfortable”?

        Do you read your comments before you send them in? No, we have no way of knowing how uncomfortable it makes YOU. We could, if we want, extrapolate how uncomfortable you are with infanticide from your comments on the killing of Palestinian babies by settlers.

        And of course, the word “infanticide” appears nowhere on this post except in your comment.

      • Kris
        Kris
        October 17, 2015, 6:59 pm

        @jon66: “Am I the only one here who thinks Yoni’s justification of infanticide makes me “uncomfortable”?

        How would anyone here know what makes you “uncomfortable”?

        I just reread Yoni’s comment, and can’t find “justification of infanticide” anywhere in it.

        Yoni did say,

        “The Jews are waging a demographic war in which native women and children are favored targets. (The T-shirts distributed during Operation Cast Lead still disgust me.) Killing invader women and children is proportionate response when jus in bello is not respected.

        Is this what you’re talking about? Yoni seems to be saying, basically, “What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.” Another way of putting it would be to say that everyone should play by the same rules. That’s why there is international law, but Israel is somehow exempt, at least in its own eyes, from observing international law, so Palestinians may feel that the game is rigged.

        It would be helpful, when you are commenting about someone else’s comment, if you would copy and paste the part of the comment you’re referring to, so we can all be on the same page.

        As you must know, if you are really a healthcare professional, clear and precise communication is extremely important in improving efficiency and preventing undesirable outcomes.

      • YoniFalic
        YoniFalic
        October 17, 2015, 10:27 pm

        Here are some of the T-shirts that helped me realize I served evil when I was in IDF uniform.

        The top two were especially disturbing to me.

        http://www.meezaan.org/eng/?mod=articles&ID=86&fb_comment_id=479313525423565_768271146527800#f13e52531

        How can we be surprised by the Palestinian resistance to murderous invaders such as I was when I believed Zionist nonsense?

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        October 17, 2015, 11:31 pm

        @jon66

        No.

        How does ayelet shaked make you feel?

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 18, 2015, 10:32 am

        OG

        I’m unfamiliar with the specifics of what she has justified. But if it’s the intentional murder of civilians than I oppose that as well.

      • Leahj
        Leahj
        October 20, 2015, 12:53 pm

        DaBakr, “It is MUCH harder to get a permit to own a handgun in Israel then the US ”

        That certainly doesn’t apply to settlers in the Occupied Territories. The Israeli government strongly encourages them to have guns.

    • talknic
      talknic
      October 16, 2015, 10:14 am

      @ DaBakr

      Do you really expect people who have lived their entire lives under the jackboots of Israeli occupation not to break?

      Take your pathetic whining to the Zionist Federation who for over a century have been hell bent on colonizing Palestine. Go bitch to the Israeli Government who for almost 68 years has been slaughtering people and stealing territory “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”

      You’re barking up the wrong tree you stupid propagandist Get the f&ck out of all non-Israeli territory, take the illegal settlers and go live in Israel.

      “Imagine had Israel not taken out the reactor and Assad had that trump card up his sleeve”

      That’d be the alleged Israeli propaganda manufactured reactor for which the IAEA has found absolutely no evidence.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 16, 2015, 11:18 am

        “Gaza’s Hamas rulers praised the Jerusalem attacks, according to the AP. Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri reportedly said it “praises these heroic operations in Jerusalem and greets the heroes who carried them out.”
        http://www.ibtimes.com/jerusalem-attacks-least-3-israelis-killed-after-palestinians-stab-open-fire-bus-hamas-2138899

        “What kind of a screwed up Govt deliberately encourages its civilians to endanger themselves?” – talknic http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/condemn-or-not#comment-800119

        “Complaints should go to the Zionist Federation and Israeli Government, who encourage civilians to break GC IV thereby endangering themselves and in this case their families.” – talknic http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/condemn-or-not#comment-800078

        “If you deliberately take your wife and children to stand in the middle of a traffic lane on a freeway …. go figure” – talknic

      • annie
        annie
        October 16, 2015, 11:55 am

        jon, i took the liberty of adding the links to the comments you cherry picked for your juxtaposition exercise. however, there is a fundamental difference in the circumstances/context of the actors.

        hamas, unlike israel in these instances, are not deliberately placing their civilians in a circumstance that puts them in danger. they do not hold the key nor have the power to end the oppression of their people.

        the government of israel is using their citizens to ethnically cleanse palestine — as has always been the case. they are the oppressors. but i will answer the question.

        the kind of Govt that deliberately encourages its civilians to endanger themselves is a government that knows it’s people would become hunted down until they were all imprisoned, slaughtered, ethnically cleansed, or extinct unless they defended themselves (give me liberty or give me death) . this is why resistance to occupation is not illegal but using citizens to colonize land is a war crime. one is fighting for survival, the other is engaged in an offensive operation.

        hence, the two cannot be compared. you cannot pretend israelis are the victims here and ascribe to them or their government the defense/resistance of the oppressed. there is only one oppressor in this conflict and one oppressed. you’re representing the oppressor. therefore, your juxtaposition is inapplicable. the apartheid government ruling the entire region is israel. don’t pretend it is hamas.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 16, 2015, 12:39 pm

        Annie,

        Knifing civilians is a crime. Stabbing a 13 year old on a bike or a 72 year old waiting for a bus is not legitimate resistance.

        If a government encourages civilians to commit a crime or war crime, why is the government responsible for the death of the criminal in one circumstance but not the other?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 16, 2015, 12:55 pm

        “That’d be the alleged Israeli propaganda manufactured reactor for which the IAEA has found absolutely no evidence.”

        Unlike Israel’s illegal uncontrolled nuclear arsenal, which meets all NPT requirments by putting nuclear weapons in the hands of fanatic IDF settler-officers guided by Rabbis.
        Oh, you don’t think that is true, “Dabakr”? Okay, what is Israel’s launch policy? Who has control over the weapons?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 16, 2015, 1:00 pm

        “the government of israel is using their citizens to ethnically cleanse palestine — as has always been the case.”

        And the fact that Israel can get away with using civilians (what nation’s “citizens” they are is another question, too) to do this, is to me, the greatest and most sadly eloquent and irrefutable testimony to Palestinian non-violence and efforts to live in peace..

      • eljay
        eljay
        October 16, 2015, 1:47 pm

        || Jon66: … Knifing civilians is a crime. Stabbing a 13 year old on a bike or a 72 year old waiting for a bus is not legitimate resistance. ||

        Criminals should be arrested, tried and, if found guilty, held accountable for their actions. There’s nothing just or moral about Occupation forces / engaging in arbitrary assassinations or attempts at vehicular manslaughter.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 16, 2015, 5:03 pm

        Generally speaking I agree. So how can someone justify the murder of Israelis outside a bus stop or walking in the Old City even if you think they are ‘criminal’?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 16, 2015, 2:07 pm

        “If a government encourages civilians to commit a crime or war crime,”

        A crime and war crimes like illegally settling in an illegally occupied territory, and this sponsored by the government. Is that what you are talking about?

        Yup, if the government of Israel encourages citizens to commit crimes and war crimes, the consequences may come back on them, the “civilians”. But Israel doesn’t care about that, there’s more than enough Jews to waste.

      • Kris
        Kris
        October 16, 2015, 2:08 pm

        @jon66: “If a government encourages civilians to commit a crime or war crime, why is the government responsible for the death of the criminal in one circumstance but not the other?”

        I’m having trouble following your question. Do you mean: “If Hamas “encourages” Palestinians to stab Israelis who are illegally in Palestinian territory, acting as willing human shields in Israel’s illegal program of ethnic cleansing, why don’t we condemn both Hamas and Israel?”

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 16, 2015, 2:43 pm

        Kris,
        The question is not comdemnation.
        Rather, when the father and mother were executed while driving in the West Bank, the assertion was that Israel was responsible for their deaths because it was Israel that made them ‘criminals’.
        Hamas and others have encouraged Palestinians to become ‘criminals’ by attacking unarmed civilians. Shouldn’t we them hold Hamas etc. responsible for the deaths of these attackers?

      • Kris
        Kris
        October 16, 2015, 3:26 pm

        Jon66, I’m trying to understand. Is this what you mean:

        1. Israel encouraged the Jewish parents to participate in stealing Palestinian land by being “settlers,” and as a result, they were killed by a Palestinian.

        2. Hamas has encouraged Palestinians to fight back against Jewish Israeli “settlers” who are stealing Palestinian land.

        Therefore, just as Israel was to blame for the deaths of the Jewish Israel “settlers” while they were committing a crime, Hamas is to blame for the deaths of the Palestinian attackers while they were resisting that crime.

        Maybe what you are asking is whether or not Palestinians have a right to resist Israel’s ethnic cleansing?

        I hope one of the lawyers who comments here will take pity on us and explain who is allowed to resist, and how.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 16, 2015, 4:44 pm

        Kris
        It’s not that I agree with the sentiment, but at the time the husband and wife were killed in the West Bank, their murder was defended as a response to ‘criminals’ and the fault of their government for putting them in harms way. I am trying to understand the logic of that sentiment.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        October 16, 2015, 3:57 pm

        Jon666,

        Stop the whining. By starting a war of aggression against the owners of all sovereignty over the territory of Palestine, the invader Zionist entity has made itself responsible for any damage to both the invaded population and its own. Period. The war has not been terminated; no negotiation was ever started on the basis of a clear, uncoerced approval by a majority of all Palestinians.
        The two civilians are not “civilians”. One was an elite military unit commander and his elimination is a good thing. Both were certainly illegally in occupied territory, encouraged thereto by the Zionist entity government.
        Whatever your ideas about resistance, it is an imprescribable right of the occupied population to resist by all means judged appropriate.
        Also, given that the Zionist entity targets and murders civilian populations by the entire neighborhood, in wars of pure aggression (as it has NO “right to defend itself”) no matter if even under UN protection, and sneeringly calls it “collateral damage” it has thereby forsaken every right to protest against any damage to any civilian anywhere in Palestine.
        Hamas, by the way, is not the government of a state. It is just a political party. Its job, if it wants to fulfill it well, is to support, encourage and help any resistance, opposing it only for reasons of efficacy.
        I just can’t understand all the whimpering here[..]. When you know you are illegally immigrating or remaining illegally on other people’s lands, and your own government officially puts you in harm’s way by justifying genocidal murder as “collateral damage” it means you have a problem.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 16, 2015, 8:17 pm

        Echi
        You are wrong.
        Even if they were criminals they should not have been murdered. If he was not on active duty he was not a legitimate target. The means of resistance are not unlimited. If they were criminals, who sentenced them to death.
        Secondly, even if Israel is in violation of the GC, it does not excuse violations by others. Reciprocity is not required.
        Hamas is more than just a political party.

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 16, 2015, 5:45 pm

        @ Jon66 October 16, 2015, 4:44 pm

        “… at the time the husband and wife were killed in the West Bank..”

        They were there ILLEGALLY, assisted by the Israeli Government.

        ” their murder was defended..”

        It wasn’t by anyone here..

        ” as a response to ‘criminals’ and the fault of their government for putting them in harms way”

        The Israeli Government does encourage illegal settlement

        “I am trying to understand the logic of that sentiment”

        You’re not trying to understand. You can’t afford to, your whole stupid denialist propaganda shtick would fall apart

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 16, 2015, 5:46 pm

        Jon66 “Hamas and others have encouraged Palestinians to become ‘criminals’ by attacking unarmed civilians”

        Evidence … verbatim .. thx

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 16, 2015, 6:10 pm

        Meanwhile, a Hamas spokesman in Gaza and a member of parliament called on all Palestinian factions to join the “Jerusalem intifada.”

        In a Friday speech broadcast on the Qatar-based al-Jazeera network and picked up by MEMRI, Mushir Al-Masri is seen also brandishing a knife and shouting: “This is our choice, the knife is our choice!”

        The “blessed knife,” he goes on, “symbolizes the battle of the West Bank and Jerusalem.”
        http://www.timesofisrael.com/gaza-cleric-calls-on-palestinians-to-stab-jews/

      • eljay
        eljay
        October 16, 2015, 6:13 pm

        || eljay: Criminals should be arrested, tried and, if found guilty, held accountable for their actions. There’s nothing just or moral about Occupation forces / engaging in arbitrary assassinations or attempts at vehicular manslaughter. ||

        || Jon66: Generally speaking I agree. So how can someone justify the murder of Israelis outside a bus stop or walking in the Old City even if you think they are ‘criminal’? ||

        I don’t know. So how can someone justify Occupation forces / engaging in arbitrary assassinations or attempts at vehicular manslaughter? The proper response to acts of injustice and immorality is justice, accountability and equality, not random acts of murder or attempted murder undertaken by representatives of the state.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        October 16, 2015, 6:29 pm

        “Hamas and others have encouraged Palestinians to become ‘criminals’ by attacking unarmed civilians”

        In this case, the Israeli turned out to be a reserve IDF Officer, if I remember right.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 16, 2015, 7:51 pm

        Correct.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 16, 2015, 8:28 pm

        @tk

        lol. that “alleged” reactor is somehow known by every foreign minister in NATO, the intelligence networks and the governments of ALL the most powerful nations on earth-plus say- dozens more. They know who supplied the plans. Who helped pay for the materials and they know exactly what kind of facility it was going to be. But then you are painfully unaware of even the nose on the end of your head so its not surprising you would deny Assad, the tyrant Mullahs of the Islamic Republic as well as the Pakistani Khan and Kim il Jong. You obviously are clueless about a lot of things staring you right in the face. I have read the numerous ‘denials’ and they are a joke considering the kind of humans Assad, his wife and family are.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        October 16, 2015, 8:53 pm

        @annie:

        I don’t exactly see how adding the links to j comments changes much if anything. Either in fact or in context. I don;t see the “cherry picking” either. (though I don’t deny that ‘ cherry picking’ is often employed by both sides to justify conduct)

        But I do understand that you view the Hamas in a completely different light then the majority of Israelis (and I would bet most Americans too)

      • annie
        annie
        October 16, 2015, 11:15 pm

        dabakr, i think it’s helpful when reading a quote to read it in context. therefore when quoting someone from another thread i leave the link. in fact you have to make an effort here to erase the link since it appears automatically when you copy paste.

        in following the links (to talknics quotes jon cherrypicked) you can find the original conversations to so i would advise following them because this is a repeat conversation we had the other day initiated by guess who? that’s right, jon again. this was my comment right below:

        . You seem to be saying that it’s OK to target the civilian population of a country if you are at war with the country.

        no, he was pretty clear on what he was saying:

        “the Zionist government is responsible as the military occupier.”

        if the military is shooting civilians then they are responsible if their own citizens get targeted as a result. this is the price you pay as a society by keeping people locked up so you can steal their land and resources. it’s israel’s fault and responsibility, every death.

        just like when you commit a crime with a deadly weapon the ensuing deaths are considered your responsibility.

        I do understand that you view the Hamas in a completely different light

        read Kris @ 3:26 pm, the whole thing — Maybe what you are asking is whether or not Palestinians have a right to resist Israel’s ethnic cleansing?

        note how jon references the argument as israel gov putting them [settlers]in harms way? he doesn’t get it. the settlers are being used to carry out a war crime, a crime against humanity. they are not merely “in harms way”. their presence is, in itself, harm — an act of violence against the palestinian people. whereas, palestinians have a right [and a choice] to resist the occupation of their people and colonization of their land. the 2 cannot be compared.

        i suggest heading over to the thread where this was discussed extensively the other day and reading it there. i have no interest in having the conversation again. i said what i had to say already.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        October 16, 2015, 10:31 pm

        Jon66

        The whole point is that “murder” does not apply in these cases. Murder is a term you may well use for any assassination by the illegitimate Zionist entity that has no right to be there or even “protect itself”, or to Obama’s droning, etc. That is murder, premeditated, against protected persons. Which the entire Palestinian population are.

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 17, 2015, 12:05 am

        Jon66 “In a Friday speech broadcast on the Qatar-based al-Jazeera network and picked up by MEMRI”

        Memri is a propaganda outfit catering to useful fools

      • Bumblebye
        Bumblebye
        October 17, 2015, 8:38 am

        @ jon666
        “So how can anyone justify…”

        Maybe pointing out that Palestinians have zero recourse to *any* law that would uphold their rights, rather than ride roughshod over them and even *criminalize* their existence? Maybe a lifetime of that, however short it’s been, is too much to take. Even 13 years of watching friends, relatives, neighbors being humiliated on a daily basis, arrested and beaten, ethnically cleansed to make way for people who show nothing but hatred and contempt for you and yours as they steal from you with impunity…how would you deal with such a situation jon – or your 13 year old self? These people perpetrating these crimes against Palestinians 24/7 don’t have the legal right to do so, but have all the powers to write their own rules, laugh contemptuously in the face of international law, and act with endless impunity.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        October 18, 2015, 10:01 am

        jon66,

        Once more, your whimpering is past absurd. You guys (just to underline your personal responsibility) started a war and don’t want to call it off, and you have the crust to complain of being in war? Eat it.

    • eljay
      eljay
      October 16, 2015, 10:27 am

      || DaBakr: … But hey. We all get that in this conflict-upas down, right is left and wrong is right. … ||

      That certainly is the Zio-supremacist position:
      – your past and on-going (war) crimes constitute “morality”;
      – your oppressive, colonialist, expansionist, belligerent, intransigent and religion-supremacist state is a “moral beacon”; and
      – even as you continue with impunity to steal, occupy, colonize, oppress, torture and kill, you are the victims. :-(

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      October 16, 2015, 12:19 pm

      DaBakr

      For your edification:

      Kill ratio of Israeli & Palestinian children: “Counting the kids. From 2000 until today” website:

      http://www.countthekids.org/

      For every Israeli kid killed since 2000, 15.1 Palestinian kids have been killed.

  6. Jon66
    Jon66
    October 16, 2015, 6:35 pm

    Talknic

    Another example;
    The terminology of international law with respect to legitimate targets is usually “protected noncombatant” and not civilian. A civilian that repairs tanks for battle is a legitimate target. A POW is a protected noncombatant.

    Eitan Henkin was a military officer participating in criminal colonization on the model of 19th century style genocidal colonization. It is hard to argue that he was not a legitimate target for the resistance. Naama Henkin was not a military officer, but she was participating in criminal colonization of the model of 19th century style genocidal colonization. It is hard to argue that she was not a legitimate target for the resistance.

    Designating the killing of criminal invaders anywhere in Palestine (including the part that is called pre-1967 Israel) seems wrong by historical precedent. No one uses terrorism to describe the assassination of Heydrich in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia even though the division of Czechoslavokia had international de facto and de jure recognition from the UK, Italy, Poland, and Hungary.

    In Czechoslavokian and Czech Republic law 17 September 1938 is considered the start of an undeclared war between Czechoslovakia and Germany. Likewise, once the racist genocidal Zionist state is replaced by a single Palestinian state, 11 December 1917 will probably be considered the start of an undeclared war between racist genocidal invaders from Eastern Europe (et alii) and the native population.

    From that perspective the Jewish invader population anywhere in Palestine is no different from the German invader population anywhere in Eastern Europe during the 1940s.

    Because one front of the undeclared war is demographic, attacks on any invader anywhere in Palestine must be considered completely legitimate and not terrorism.

    – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/condemn-or-not#comment-800119

    • DaBakr
      DaBakr
      October 16, 2015, 9:05 pm

      actually-the terminology of international law as it applies to the ‘territories’ or Samaria and Judea has not been definitively decided, defined or adjudicated by relevant bodies if the arena of international law. Of course there are ‘world bodies’ such as the UN and its off-shoots who have predetermined what they ‘believe’ is international law (e.g. Jerusalem and the consistent qualifier in US press that ‘most nations hold that the occupation of east Jerusalem is illegal under international law’. That doesn’t really mean anything as much as it simply implies a viewpoint. Ditto for the ‘un-annexed’ Samaria/Judea/West Bank’. Its just not been decided and there are very good legal strategies to find that Jerusalem is not ‘occupied’ and that Jews have a legal right (in only some-not all instances) to live and settle in the WB. Most anti-Zionists simply pooh-pooh this idea as a desperate hail mary idea. I would seriously doubt that.

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 17, 2015, 12:24 am

        @ DaBakr “actually-the terminology of international law as it applies to the ‘territories’ or Samaria and Judea has not been definitively decided, defined or adjudicated by relevant bodies if the arena of international law”

        A) The relevant bodies don’t use the antiquated terms Samaria and Judea .

        B) The ICJ has passed an opinion on the matter whereby it is very clear that were they asked for a judgement they’d not favour Israel

        “Of course there are ‘world bodies’ such as the UN and its off-shoots who have predetermined what they ‘believe’ is international law (e.g. Jerusalem and the consistent qualifier in US press that ‘most nations hold that the occupation of east Jerusalem is illegal under international law’. That doesn’t really mean anything as much as it simply implies a viewpoint”

        Whatever crap you need to regurgitate eh?

        “Ditto for the ‘un-annexed’ Samaria/Judea/West Bank’. Its just not been decided and there are very good legal strategies to find that Jerusalem is not ‘occupied’ “

        It has been occupied since Israel said it was you stupid stupid person

        12th Aug 1948 … the Provisional Israeli Government proclaimed Jerusalem Declared Israel-Occupied City- by Israeli Government Proclamation 12 Aug 1948

        “and that Jews have a legal right (in only some-not all instances) to live and settle in the WB”

        Israelis do not. You’re spouting crap!

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      October 16, 2015, 9:33 pm

      Jon66,

      So what’s contrary to fact in this text? With detail, please, not just Zionist indignation.
      Look:
      “No one uses terrorism to describe the assassination of Heydrich in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia…” but the Nazis sure did.
      In the current case, it’s the Zionists who are using the same term against every logic.

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 16, 2015, 10:02 pm

        Killing Heydrich is not the same as stabbing a 13 year old.

    • talknic
      talknic
      October 17, 2015, 12:12 am

      @ Jon66 “The terminology of international law with respect to legitimate targets is usually “protected noncombatant” and not civilian”

      Citation please …. thx

      A civilian that repairs tanks for battle is a legitimate target. A POW is a protected noncombatant etc etc etc …. attacks on any invader anywhere in Palestine must be considered completely legitimate and not terrorism. “

      You’ve dug a fine hole …

  7. Mayhem
    Mayhem
    October 16, 2015, 10:35 pm

    Israeli Arab journalist Lucy Aharish calls a spade a spade
    [youtube:8rYCQjQkRGs>
    P.S. Can somebody please tell me how to embed a video properly?

    • Marnie
      Marnie
      October 17, 2015, 12:34 am

      Lucy Aharish is nothing but a useful tool for the zionist state and is traitor to her people. She knows she how she has to behave to keep her bread buttered and she plays her part as the token Arab to a T, as evidenced by the praise she receives from Mayhem – “calling a spade a spade”. Oh, if only all Palestinians would cease and desist and accept the fate declared for them by the zionist state – Occupation now, occupation tomorrow and occupation forever.

      • Mayhem
        Mayhem
        November 4, 2015, 9:37 pm

        @Marnie, by corollary one can then argue that Philip and Adam are traitors to their own people.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      October 17, 2015, 11:10 am

      “P.S. Can somebody please tell me how to embed a video properly?”

      It’s easy, “Mayhem”! And who among us here, I ask you, isn’t eager to do you a favor? Okay, you’ll need to know your ISP, so you start by finding the borders of the country you live in….. Okay, write back when you do that, and we’ll go over the rest.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius
        October 17, 2015, 2:16 pm

        Very good Mooser.

        Very good indeed.

      • just
        just
        October 17, 2015, 2:43 pm

        Ditto that, MDM!

        Thanks, Mooser.

      • Mayhem
        Mayhem
        November 4, 2015, 9:39 pm

        @Mooser, no doubt you would ask a little old lady who needed help crossing the road if she was a Zionist and if she would answer yes I hesitate to think what you might do next.

  8. echinococcus
    echinococcus
    October 16, 2015, 10:40 pm

    Begging the question. You start by calling “murder” where the discussion is that the term murder is improper.

    • Jon66
      Jon66
      October 16, 2015, 11:24 pm

      I think this is another area in which we will disagree. I don’t see the legitimate reason and necessity of killing this husband and wife. Even if they are criminals as you say, they were not tried and convicted. If guilty, was it a death penalty offense?

      • talknic
        talknic
        October 17, 2015, 3:20 am

        @ Jon66 “I don’t see the legitimate reason and necessity of killing this husband and wife”

        Neither does anyone here … but there are those who can that a few of millions of people who’ve lived their WHOLE LIVES under occupation might go ballistic. That’s why GC IV exists, including to protect the civilians of the Occupying Power from becoming victims of their governments idiotic, thieving, settlement policies

        “Even if they are criminals as you say, they were not tried and convicted. If guilty, was it a death penalty offense?”

        Uh oh! You’ve dug another fine Ziohole … Same rules for Palestinians many of whom have been merely merely protesting, sans violence, a LIFE TIME under occupation, dispossession and illegal acquisition of their territory by the so called Jewish state?

      • Jon66
        Jon66
        October 17, 2015, 9:11 am

        Of course the same rules should apply and I don’t deny that they are sometimes ignored by Israel as well. Personally, I would like to see all the killing stop and a reasonable proposal accepted by both sides. I may approach this from a different perspective, but I don’t believe that the status quo is healthy for anyone. Too much rhetoric and not enough practical solutions.

      • annie
        annie
        October 17, 2015, 4:01 pm

        a reasonable proposal accepted by both sides.

        jon, snap out of it. there is no balance of power here — get it? this whole both sides lingo is a joke. there is only one side in this equation with power, and they are not about to give it up. any movement they make is intended to queeze the life out of palestine. even when it appears they are loosing the reins it is only to get a firmer grip. the only solution to this issue is outside intervention — which israel will not allow. that mean imposing a solution on israel. period!

    • annie
      annie
      October 17, 2015, 12:08 am

      jon, if you have more to say on specific comments (re discussion) in the condemn or not to condemn thread could you take it up over there please? thanks. the thread is still active.

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