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The instant Palestinians get support from someone who might gain power– out comes the anti-semitism charge

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New York Times to pro-Palestinian activists— Drop dead.

Up till now, the news reporting in the Times on the anti-semitism charges against the British Labour Party had been fair and the opinion pieces noxious, but now the news reporting is lining up with the noxious folk. Yesterday’s article datelined London, says that Jeremy Corbyn’s “anti-Semitism crisis” is “largely of his own making” and the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of anti-Semitism that Labour just reluctantly adopted is “internationally recognized.”

It remained unclear whether that would end months of bitter criticism of Labour from faith leaders and Jewish newspapers that has tarnished the party’s image.

There is no hint in this article about why Corbyn should care about Palestinian rights, or what Israel is doing to Palestinians that so animates the left. No, it’s apparently a blind fixation on Corbyn’s part: “he is in no mood to hide either his criticism of Israel or the support he has given to pro-Palestinian causes for decades.”

You would think all Corbyn’s accusers are perfect little innocents. And all Labour had to do to escape this crisis was kiss up to all the anti-Arab bigots.

For that is the central issue in the Western debate: The instant Palestinians start getting support from someone who might have real power, the anti-Semite accusation is wheeled out, everyone remembers Who The Real Victims Are, and Palestinians are shoved under the bus.

That is the whole point of these charges. The discourse of anti-semitism is currently the central issue in the Western world for anyone who favors Palestinian rights, and I just wish people would start constantly and consistently pointing to the elephant in the room, which is that these fake anti-Semitism charges are not innocent. They are racist against Palestinians.

We need to fight back and say: Stop with this bullshit of making everything center first on anti-Semitism, and stop using the fake anti-Semitism charge as a tool to crush Palestinian rights, because that is racism. That’s what this is about and in the mainstream the racists are getting away with it, with no challenge from the reporters.

It seems to me that if people want to define antisemitism this way, to mean that people who think Palestinians have rights are anti-Semites, then so be it. Let them have that word, and the word loses its impact. Genuine anti-Semitism will have to called something else, like Judeaophobia.

But we must not lose hold of the central point. All these IHRA-supporters, including well-meaning liberals, are anti-Palestinian racists and a good number of them are so stupid they don’t even realize it. We have to push back on their racism— their anti-Palestinian racism.

 

Donald
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104 Responses

  1. HarryLaw
    HarryLaw
    September 5, 2018, 12:59 pm

    Labours NEC has capitulated to the Israel lobby, notably momentum founder Jon Lansman who said of the IHRA definition minus four examples [concerning Israel] that this was the gold standard and encouraged everyone to vote for it, that was in July 2018 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/12/labour-antisemitism-code-gold-standard-political-parties
    “The only part of the IHRA working examples that is not explicitly referenced relates to claims about the state of Israel being a racist endeavor (this is a subset of an example, not a standalone one). Of all the elements in the IHRA examples, this is the one that runs the greatest risk of prohibiting legitimate criticism of Israel. It cannot possibly be antisemitic to point out that some of the key policies of the Israeli state, observed since its founding days, have an effect that discriminates on the basis of race and ethnicity”.
    He soon changed his mind and before the latest vote encouraged his NEC colleagues to support the definition with all examples.
    The question is, can a Labour party member including Corbyn say the state of Israel is a racist endeavor without being called an Anti Semite and excluded from the party?
    Chakrabarti was asked the question but did not answer properly, that question needs to be put to all members of the NEC, lets find out if it really is possible to criticize Israel.

    • Stephen Shenfield
      Stephen Shenfield
      September 9, 2018, 3:17 pm

      It is about time the archaic term “anti-Semitism” (with or without the hyphen) was abandoned. It originally referred to a doctrine of hostility to all “Semites” — including Arabs as well as Jews, both groups being considered barbaric Asiatics who had no rightful place in Europe. The anti-Arab component has long been forgotten, although it should be self-evident from the structure of the word (even if there is no Semitic race, there is a group of closely related Semitic languages). Anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian bigots are themselves anti-Semites in the original sense of the word. Nowadays, of course, “anti-Semitism” almost always refers to hatred of Jews alone. So, yes, let’s insist on “Judeophobia.”

  2. Kay24
    Kay24
    September 5, 2018, 1:12 pm

    Apparently Jeremy Corbyn’s party already caved in after feeling the wrath of the zionists:
    Labour adopts IHRA antisemitism definition in full

    “All 11 examples accompanying the IHRA definition were agreed by the NEC meeting at the party’s headquarters in central London, as the 40-strong party body attempted to end the long-running row about how to tackle alleged antisemitism within the party.

    A party spokesperson said: “The NEC has today adopted all of the IHRA examples of antisemitism, in addition to the IHRA definition which Labour adopted in 2016, alongside a statement which ensures this will not in any way undermine freedom of expression on Israel or the rights of Palestinians.”

    The spokesperson said Corbyn had made an additional statement to the meeting describing action being taken against antisemitism and expressing solidarity with the Jewish community and the importance of the protection of Palestinian rights.” The Guardian UK

    • Keith
      Keith
      September 5, 2018, 4:15 pm

      KAY24- “The spokesperson said Corbyn had made an additional statement to the meeting describing action being taken against antisemitism and expressing solidarity with the Jewish community….”

      This is self-parody raised to an art form. And this was the hope of the British Left?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 5, 2018, 5:05 pm

        “describing action being taken against antisemitism”

        Certainly Corbyn wouldn’t want to be crucified for BNP’s sins.

  3. eljay
    eljay
    September 5, 2018, 1:55 pm

    I’m amazed by the ease with which Zionists ab/use Jews, Judaism, the Holocaust and accusations of anti-Semitism as both sword and shield in the service of their colonialist and supremacist nightmare.

    Zionists are truly hateful and immoral people.

    • Brewer
      Brewer
      September 5, 2018, 9:04 pm

      They went to sea in a Sieve, they did,
      In a Sieve they went to sea:
      In spite of all their friends could say,
      On a winter’s morn, on a stormy day,
      In a Sieve they went to sea!
      And when the Sieve turned round and round,
      And every one cried, `You’ll all be drowned!’
      They called aloud, `Our Sieve ain’t big,
      But we don’t care a button! we don’t care a fig!
      In a Sieve we’ll go to sea!’
      Far and few, far and few,
      Are the lands where the Jumblies live;
      Their heads are green, and their hands are blue,
      And they went to sea in a Sieve.
      – Edward Lear

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        September 5, 2018, 10:17 pm

        When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.
        – Lewis Carroll

      • Eva Smagacz
        Eva Smagacz
        September 6, 2018, 6:13 pm

        The water it soon came in, it did,
        The water it soon came in;
        So to keep them dry, they wrapped their feet
        In a pinky paper all folded neat,
        And they fastened it down with a pin.
        And they passed the night in a crockery-jar,
        And each of them said, ‘How wise we are!
        Though the sky be dark, and the voyage be long,
        Yet we never can think we were rash or wrong,
        While round in our Sieve we spin!’
        Far and few, far and few,
        Are the lands where the Jumblies live;
        Their heads are green, and their hands are blue,
        And they went to sea in a Sieve.

  4. guyn
    guyn
    September 5, 2018, 4:48 pm

    They play with fire… and whatever happens it will not be their fault…

  5. JWalters
    JWalters
    September 5, 2018, 6:52 pm

    At root it’s a simple matter of being pro-Justice or anti-Justice. The Zionists are anti-Justice, and their word games cannot hide that fact forever. The facts are getting out, and their anti-Justice beliefs and actions are making increasing numbers of people sick of them. Eventually their money will be so poisonous that even politicians will not be able to stomach it.

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      September 5, 2018, 10:21 pm

      They are leveraging the goodwill of non Jews to give cover to the brutality of an ultra right wing Government which thinks it can run apartheid indefinitely. It boils down to
      “Say anything against Naftali Bennett and you are worse than a Nazi”
      This is incoherent.

  6. JaapBo
    JaapBo
    September 6, 2018, 2:13 am

    Just say it out loud: Zionism is racism, because it gives Jews superior rights to Palestinians in the Holy Land. This is the source of all Israeli and Zionist racism.

    And it follows that we demand equality for Palestinians and Jews, which means:
    – equal rights and no discrimination for the Palestinian citizens of Israel
    – the right of return for Palestinian refugees (because Jews, who aren’t even refugees, have that right)
    – a Palestinian state (if a one-state-solution is not chosen) that is fully equal in rights to Israel, and not a “state-minus” like Israeli leaders have claimed

  7. Brewer
    Brewer
    September 6, 2018, 2:14 am

    Well I’ll be hornswoggled. Could this be the same guy?:

    “Multiculturalism promotes segregation, stifles free speech and threatens liberal democracy, Britain’s top Jewish official warned in extracts from his book published Saturday. Jonathan Sacks, Britain’s chief rabbi, defined multiculturalism as an attempt to affirm Britain’s diverse communities and make ethnic and religious minorities more appreciated and respected. But in his book, “The Home We Build Together: Recreating Society,” he said the movement had run its course. “Multiculturalism has led not to integration but to segregation,” Sacks wrote in his book, an extract of which was published in the Times of London. “Liberal democracy is in danger,” Sacks said, adding later: “The politics of freedom risks descending into the politics of fear.” Sacks said Britain’s politics had been poisoned by the rise of identity politics, as minorities and aggrieved groups jockeyed first for rights, then for special treatment. The process, he said, began with Jews, before being taken up by blacks, women and gays. He said the effect had been “inexorably divisive.” “A culture of victimhood sets group against group, each claiming that its pain, injury, oppression, humiliation is greater than that of others,” he said.”
    https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Sacks-Multiculturalism-threatens-democracy

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      September 6, 2018, 8:03 am

      Under neoliberalism all the money goes to the rich . This is the problem. Multiculturalism is neither here nor there.

  8. Donald
    Donald
    September 6, 2018, 7:15 am

    “All these IHRA-supporters, including well-meaning liberals, are anti-Palestinian racists and a good number of them are so stupid they don’t even realize it. “

    Rereading that sentence, it is probably unfair. Liberals who get their information from the mainstream press are likely innocent dupes in most cases—they would have little reason to suspect that some of the IHRA examples would make it impossible to criticize Israel’s actions towards the Palestinians without being called an antisemite.

  9. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    September 6, 2018, 8:09 am

    Using the term “antisemite” to defend human rights abuses is supposed to protect Israel but it won’t work for long.

    There is just too much sewage seeping out of Israel.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      September 6, 2018, 10:07 am

      @maghlawatan

      “Using the term “antisemite” to defend human rights abuses is supposed to protect Israel but it won’t work for long. There is just too much sewage seeping out of Israel.”

      Agreed!!

      Your comment brings to mind the following:

      Jan 19, 2018 – Haaretz
      Opinion: “In Israel, Growing Fascism and a Racism Akin to Early Nazism” by Zeev Sternhell.**
      EXCERPT:
      “I frequently ask myself how a historian in 50 or 100 years will interpret our period. When, he will ask, did people in Israel start to realize that the state that was established in the War of Independence, on the ruins of European Jewry and at the cost of the blood of combatants some of whom were Holocaust survivors, had devolved into a true monstrosity for its non-Jewish inhabitants. When did some Israelis understand that their cruelty and ability to bully others, Palestinians or Africans, began eroding the moral legitimacy of their existence as a sovereign entity?”

      https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-gaza-border-killings-expose-israel-s-true-mentality-1.6032716
      Opinion: “Gaza Border Killings Expose Israel’s True Mentality
      And Bezalel Smotrich, like the cynical face of Avigdor Lieberman, reflects our own face, the face of Netanyahu’s advance guard for the West.”
      By Zeev Sternhell Apr 27, 2018 – Haaretz

      ** Zeev Sternhell is a Polish-born Israeli historian, political scientist, commentator on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, and writer. He is one of the world’s leading experts on fascism. Sternhell headed the Department of Political Science at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

  10. CHUCKMAN
    CHUCKMAN
    September 6, 2018, 2:20 pm

    Yes, it has been a very sad spectacle.

    The real problem is people using the accusation as a cheap attack, a way to libel a decent man and influence a party, and doing so regularly over a considerable period of time.

    Where was all this “anti-Semitism” hiding in Tony Blair’s day?

    Or even after?

    It just suddenly exploded into existence under Corbyn? Like a parody of Athena suddenly erupting from the head of Zeus?

    No reasonable person can believe that. It’s a bizarre notion.

    No, what has changed since Blair’s day is simply this.

    A leader who helped kill about a million people and destroy a society, lying continuously about what he was doing, and received the Israel Peace Prize plus many handsome sinecures for his efforts, stopped being leader.

    Another man, a decent man who is fair-minded about the Middle East, as he is about many other matters, became leader.

    So, all stops were pulled by interested parties in doing something about it.

    He’s been attacked from the beginning. He had to win his leadership vote twice. The attacks, here or there, seem to fade a bit, then, wham!, they’re back, this recent round perhaps the worst ever.

    Well, you can have whatever kind of country you like, but this way of doing things is shabby and dishonest and can produce nothing good.

    Much as some of Theresa May’s incompetent efforts and unwarranted attacks, all damaging and utterly without evidence.

    As a young man, I always thought of Britain as more honorable political society than the United States with its folks like Senator Joseph McCarthy or FBI Director J Edgar Hoover or blood-drenched liar, Lyndon Johnson.

    But either I was naive or Britain has changed, and changed greatly for the worse

  11. amigo
    amigo
    September 6, 2018, 4:01 pm

    “Anti-Corbyn MP faces removal vote for fabricating anti-Semitism charge”.Electronic Intifada.

    “The chair of Labour Friends of Israel is facing a no-confidence vote tonight, Thursday, The Electronic Intifada has been told by activists in North London.

    Labour Friends of Israel is a lobby group which privately admits to working “really closely” and “behind the scenes” with the Israeli embassy.

    The group’s chair, Joan Ryan, is facing removal for undermining her own Labour Party during last year’s general election, and for fabricating a charge of anti-Semitism against a Palestine solidarity activist in 2016.

    A motion calls for the local party to express “no confidence in our MP Joan Ryan and seeks the removal of the party whip and an open selection process for our next parliamentary candidate.”

    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/anti-corbyn-mp-faces-removal-vote-fabricating-anti-semitism-charge

    There is a video taken by the AJ undercover investigator showing these Israel Firsters at work.

    • amigo
      amigo
      September 6, 2018, 7:48 pm

      Some good News .Joan Ryan MP, ( Chair of Labour Friends of Israel ) loses vote of no confidence and immediately calls the members , Trots/Stalinist’s/Communists and assorted Hard Left.

      What a piece of work.

      https://twitter.com/joanryanEnfield/status/1037827090723340289

      Check the twitter responses, they are brilliant.One tweeted –“Taxi for Ryan”.

      • annie
        annie
        September 7, 2018, 8:38 am

        great news amigo.

  12. gracie fr
    gracie fr
    September 6, 2018, 4:51 pm

    Ah! this first affair is a nightmare for those who know its true details!And the instructions were made thus, as in a 15th century tale, shrouded in mystery, with a savage complication of circumstances, all based on only one childish charge, this idiotic affair, which was not only a vulgar treason, but was also the most impudent of hoaxes, because the famously delivered secrets were almost all without value. If I insist, it is that the kernel is here, from whence the true crime will later emerge, the terrible denial of justice ….. I would like to touch with a finger on how this miscarriage of justice could be possible, how it was born from the machinations of (Commander Du Paty de Clam), how (General Mercier, General De Boisdeffre and General Gonse ) could be let it happen, to engage little by little their responsibility in this error, that they believed a need, later, to impose like the holy truth, a truth which is not even discussed. At the beginning, there is not this, on their part, this incuriosity and obtuseness. At most, one feels them to yield to an ambiance of religious passions and the prejudices of the physical spirit. They allowed themselves a mistake
    But here Dreyfus is before the council of war. Closed doors are absolutely required. A traitor would have opened the border with the enemy …… The nation is struck into a stupor, whispering of terrible facts, monstrous treasons which make History indignant; naturally the nation is so inclined. There is no punishment too severe, it will applaud public degradation, it will want the culprit to remain on his rock of infamy, devoured by remorse. Is this then true, the inexpressible things, the dangerous things, capable of plunging Europe into flames, which one must carefully bury behind these closed doors? No! There was behind this, only the romantic and lunatic imaginations of Commander Paty de Clam. All that was done only to hide the most absurd of novella plots. And it suffices, to ensure oneself of this, to study with attention the bill of indictment, read in front of the council of war.
    from

    J’accuse….Emile Zola

  13. hophmi
    hophmi
    September 6, 2018, 10:55 pm

    As usual, Donald Johnson is an antisemitism denialist. 40% of British Jews are considering emigrating if Corbin becomes PM. Don’t you dare tell me (or anyone else in the Jewish community) what antisemitism is. You are way out of line.

    • eljay
      eljay
      September 7, 2018, 8:17 am

      || hophmi: … Don’t you dare tell me (or anyone else in the Jewish community) what antisemitism is. … ||

      Curious: Do non-/anti-Zionist Jews in the Jewish community get to tell you (or anyone else in the Jewish community) what anti-Semitism is, or are you Zionists solely in charge of defining anti-Semitism even as you continue anti-Semitically:
      – to conflate all Jews with Zionism and Zionism with all Jews; and
      – to “single out” the “Jewish State” for special treatment?

    • annie
      annie
      September 7, 2018, 8:20 am

      Don’t you dare tell me (or anyone else in the Jewish community) what antisemitism is.

      why? or else what?

      You are way out of line.

      no, you’re way out of line. and in my book, you have no credibility.

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      September 7, 2018, 8:59 am

      @hophmi

      Yes 40%. Which, apparently, is 14% less than in 2015.

      If they want to go then they should go. Unlike citizens of Palestine, in Gaza and the West Bank, who are held in what is effectively a prison by the racist regime of Israel, UK citizens are not denied the right of free movement.

      I would imagine their countrymen would prefer they stay but it’s simply their choice to make.

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      September 7, 2018, 9:42 am

      Hoppy,

      Standing up for decency in ISR/pal is not anti Semitic
      40% of UK Jews planning to leave ? Pull the other one

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        September 7, 2018, 10:53 am

        I also think that the Israeli decision to kill the 2SS has had unforeseen consequences for UK Zionists. Apartheid looks awful naked.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 7, 2018, 4:00 pm

        “40% of UK Jews planning to leave…”

        My God! Britain will collapse! How will anything get done?

    • Keith
      Keith
      September 7, 2018, 10:36 am

      HOPHMI- “Don’t you dare tell me (or anyone else in the Jewish community) what antisemitism is.”

      I beg thee to forgive thy humble servant, Lord Hophmi. I don’t know what has gotten into Donald to cause him to act so uppity! Perhaps he is under the spell of the evil Mondoweiss!

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      September 7, 2018, 11:38 am

      hophmi: “Don’t you dare tell me (or anyone else in the Jewish community) what antisemitism is.”

      Why? Would it shock them to find out that what antisemitism really is contrary to the Zionist manipulation of what it should be when it comes to their Apartheid project?

    • Donald
      Donald
      September 7, 2018, 11:51 am

      I am actually glad you showed up with that objection, hophmi, because I thought later about some things I could have said. You won’t agree, but it would clarify things.

      So Brian Klug wrote this piece about antisemitism on the pro-Palestinian left, but he was specific about what he meant.

      https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/blog/zionism-antisemitism-left-today/

      He uses the example of a friend of his who he calls by a fake name, “Daphne”, who was treated in an antisemitic and unfair way by some leftists at a meeting. Assuming the story happened as told, and I don’t doubt it, he is right. That was antisemitic. They weren’t listening to what she said and agreeing or disagreeing with the substance. They were stereotyping her.

      But when people define antisemitism as saying Israel is a racist state, sorry, that is propagandistic BS. There is a fallacy in the notion that only members of group X can define what bigotry against group X is. If something is bigoted, it should be possible to explain to an outsider why it is bigoted. In the case of the IHRA definition and examples,some of them revolve around Israel and as it happens, there’s another group of people–they are called Palestinians–who have some experience of what Israel has done to them. Israel has behaved like a racist state from its birth. It couldn’t exist in its present form without racist policies, without racist ethnic cleansing, without racist laws of return that apply to Jews and not Palestinians, without racist practices of apartheid on the West Bank and without a racist and murderous blockade of Gaza. Now it seems that to avoid being called antisemitic, the Labour Party has to kowtow to the views of people whose feelings are hurt because they have wrapped their identity around a nation which practices racism in the ways just described. Notice I didn’t say “Jews”. Because not all Jews feel that way, obviously. Being an Israel apologist is a choice, and being Jewish doesn’t mean your political choices get to be protected from scrutiny and criticism.

      If you want to define antisemitism to include “anything which upsets the feelings of people who don’t want to hear about Israeli oppression of Palestinians”, then go right ahead and make a mockery of the meaning of the word. If people want to discuss real hatred or bigotry against Jews, they will have to start using other words. But the people who pushed the IHRA definition and all of its examples are people who obviously don’t think Palestinian human rights are important when compared to their idol worship of some country.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 7, 2018, 2:26 pm

        “Don’t you dare tell me (or anyone else in the Jewish community) what antisemitism is.”

        Exactly, “Hophmi”. We know what anti-Semitism is! But if these tummlers can’t figure it out, I’ll explain it to them.

        Let’s look at how how basically anti-Semitic the US government is:

        In order to oppress the Jew, and destroy Jewish leadership, each Jews is considered an individual US citizen, with no recognition of Jewish peoplehoodness!
        There is, as a result, no recognition of Jewish leaders. Each Jew must face the government alone. Is that fair?

        Jewish people can be accused, indicted and tried by non-Jewish courts. For breaking non-Jewish laws!

        And worst of all, there is no recognition of Jewish marriage laws, in fact, they are legally unenforceable. And no bars are placed on Jews marrying not-Jews! And so the US refuses to help ensure the continuation of the Jewish people. That’s just like helping to exterminate the Jewish people as far as the result goes!

        And you know what really gets me angry? The US extended recognition as a separate people to African-American slaves, and Native Americans, and others, but refused to treat the Jews as anything but individual people! Why don’t we get what they got?

        ‘Our Jewish rights are gone with the breeze,
        After we came here, oer’ the billowy seas,
        Only as citizens do we exist here,
        And if that ain’t anti-Semitism,
        Judge, gimme the chair!’

      • gamal
        gamal
        September 7, 2018, 5:16 pm

        Honestly Donald sometimes people kind of embody their delusions, for me western delusions,
        i can hardly be bothered anymore…

        “He uses the example of a friend of his who he calls by a fake name, “Daphne”, who was treated in an antisemitic and unfair way by some leftists at a meeting. Assuming the story happened as told, and I don’t doubt it”

        Why would you? the anti-semitism of the left is the latest thing, hip in a square kind of way

        “he is right”

        what when he elaborates

        “And yet things are not quite that simple. Let me tell you about an experience that a friend of mine has just told me about. I’ll call her Daphne. (Not her real name.) Daphne is a lifelong socialist and a Jewish anti-Zionist fiercely opposed to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank. She is also a member of the Labour Party. At a well-attended CLP meeting a few weeks ago, she proposed a motion criticising Ken Livingstone for the remarks he made linking Nazism and Zionism”

        they are not both virulent forms of western racism?

        “Daphne’s view was that Ken (in her own words) “should not have invoked the name of Hitler as he did”. She put it to me this way: “The history of the holocaust is part of the identity of all Jews, whatever they may feel about Israel”. ”

        which means what?

        ” I don’t want to open up the can of worms over whether Ken should or should not have said what he said: it’s neither here nor there for my purpose in telling this anecdote”

        you see Donald as an arbiter of what is or isn’t racism you don’t smell a …fish “can of worms” oh yeah let’s move quickly on, are you getting outraged, I feel an anti-racist frenzy coming on…

        ” Whatever you think of the position Daphne took” thats an old fish, old fish whatever you think..

        “the point is this: it had nothing to do with Ken’s views on Israel and she made this clear when she proposed the motion”

        honestly i thought better of you Donald

        “Nevertheless, “Everyone who spoke against the motion” (I’m quoting Daphne) “suggested that it was part of a plot by Israel or that it was an attempt to prevent discussion of Israel”. ”

        Palestinians are very prone like all Arabs to “plot” theories, thank you for that confirmation that their supporters have aquired that characteristic, over supporting Palestinians is just as bad as…well being racist

        ” Daphne was made to feel, in her own words, “an agent of the Israeli state”.”

        I wish leftists wouldn’t do that

        “Her opponents didn’t address her arguments. “They didn’t try to defend what he said,” Daphne told me”

        that’s scandalous, I have to be honest I often just wish to explete when I read the weak shit some murderous imperialists come out with Donald, didn’t try to address her arguments? grow up man.

        “They were “only interested in discrediting those behind the motion … by linking it to Israel or right wing manoeuvring in the Party”. In effect, her opponents “shut down discussion”. “I felt I was being silenced,” she said”

        yes all arguments are equal, “silenced” by Palestine, fear of a black planet too..

        “I shall pick up just two points from Daphne’s story. First, the fact that her opponents “shut down discussion”. How ironic! We are familiar with situations in which critical discussion of Israel is shut down by people crying ‘antisemitism’.”

        how ironic, did she not bring her best argument? left the good one on the bus? Palestine always shutting down the discussion.

        Donald this does you no credit, you write better than him, it’s nonsense, come on man, really, it’s true you can never trust a white guy, don’t deny it, it’s how I feel, but not all feelings are equal are they?

        forgive me i love the “i know all about racism” implication, perhaps you could write a post for us black fellas so we could get up to speed.

        ( i mean it, forgive me, but the truth is i can’t say what i really want to, we have to watch ourselves, not you, you have the audacity to talk about being silenced, shame on you Donald) drunkeness isn’t an excuse but it may reflect on the quality of my “argument”, what’s your excuse? Mr. Johnson, the weed isn’t control the whiskey too well.

      • Keith
        Keith
        September 7, 2018, 6:30 pm

        DONALD- “Assuming the story happened as told, and I don’t doubt it, he is right. That was antisemitic.”

        I read your link and came to a different conclusion. You just don’t get it, do you? “Daphne” wants to rebuke Ken Livingstone for something he said which she misrepresented. (I have a quote in the archives which I cannot retrieve) Has “Daphne” ever suggested that Dame Hodges be rebuked for anti-Gentilism for calling Jeremy Corbyn a “fucking anti-Semite and a racist.”? All of this anti-Semitism hysteria by this powerful and privileged group reeks of anti-Gentilism. This ongoing depiction of Jewish victimhood by BOTH Zionist and anti-Zionists indicates a broad acceptance of Jewish myth-history by anti-Zionist Jews. Both seek to control the discourse to their benefit, determining what is acceptable for a non-Jew to say. Anti-Semitism to be defined by Jews with consequences to follow.

      • Keith
        Keith
        September 7, 2018, 6:50 pm

        DAPHNE- “The history of the holocaust is part of the identity of all Jews, whatever they may feel about Israel”.

        GAMAL- “which means what?”

        Which means that “Daphne” accepts the Zionist definition that the Holocaust was a historically unique event and that the Holocaust marks the climax of an irrational, eternal Gentile hatred of Jews. This is the meme which the Zionists successfully promoted following the 1967 (six day) war. “Daphne” is a Judeocentric anti-Zionist. A certain anti-Gentile bias is inherent in such a belief system. This tends to color her perceptions of events. It also obviously colors Brian Klug’s analysis of events.

      • annie
        annie
        September 7, 2018, 7:14 pm

        thanks so much for writing this excellent article donald. i can’t believe the labour party succumbed to this blatant harassment. and i think everyone is fully aware it won’t stop anything, just make it worse. they won’t be satisfied until corbyn is out of leadership — which is not going to happen for a long long time. and the blame should fall squarely where it belongs, which, unfortunately will exacerbate antisemitism. do they care about that? not in the least.

        as for the daphne story, i’m not that impressed. don’t political parties have more pressing issues to deal with than allegations of anti semitism? matters of state?

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        September 7, 2018, 7:34 pm

        Annie

        I don’t know if this adoption of a bullshit definition will make any difference. Israel will continue to be judged based on what it does. Israeli policy in Gaza is evil and will continue to be so. Jews who support Israel drunk or sober are going to encounter turbulence going forward. Apartheid has been described as a great evil and support for Israel means support for that. I don’t think Zionists have thought much about what is coming -maybe their arrogant sense of entitlement has blinded them to the wider world.

      • annie
        annie
        September 7, 2018, 8:07 pm

        Israel will continue to be judged based on what it does.

        right now they are knee deep in massively screwing with the internal politics of a foreign country via a blatantly humongous ad hominem attack on a beloved leader that risks torpedoing labour’s chance of changing policies that effect the lives of millions of citizens — even those who don’t even follow or care about palestine, or gaza for that matter. “their arrogant sense of entitlement” is a very fit description. the whole country is drowning in headlines about anti semitism for what’s going on years. that’s enough to turn off a lot of people.

      • Donald
        Donald
        September 7, 2018, 8:18 pm

        Annie, Keith, and gamal—

        I liked the Klug piece because he is trying to be nuanced. Yes, most of the focus should be on the racism against Palestinians that is part of the IHRA definition if you include the examples involving Israel. It is clearly a way of making any serious criticism of Israel antisemitic by definition. This is sheer racism against Palestinians disguised as fighting bigotry against Jews, which is what is so hypocritical about it. So that is what my post is about and most of my comment to hophmi. I didn’t write a whole piece about “ Daphne”. Klug has written other pieces on the IHRA examples where he sided with Corbyn’s position. I personally think he should be harder on the pro IHRA people, which I think I said in another piece, unless I chopped it out. Can’t remember.

        But it isn’t a zero sum game and people should be uncompromising in their criticism of Israel while trying to be sensitive on a subject like the Holocaust. This seems obvious. Of course there are going to be people who see bigotry in the criticism of Zionism, but that is where you don’t back down and instead point out that they are the ones being racist.

        As for Daphne, it is common for people on emotional political issues to see any dissenter as some sort of traitor who is really on the other side. It’s a dumb reaction, imo.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 7, 2018, 9:17 pm

        ” don’t political parties have more pressing issues to deal with than allegations of anti semitism? matters of state?”

        What matters of state? Brexit? The NHS? NATO vs. the dreaded Russians? Education? Transport? Royal Navy vs. Chinese Navy?

        Naaah. Concentrate on the only important issue.

      • Donald
        Donald
        September 7, 2018, 10:24 pm

        “Daphne” wants to rebuke Ken Livingstone for something he said which she misrepresented”

        I missed seeing this comment earlier.

        If it is the case that she misrepresented Livingstone she should have been criticized for that and not as an agent of Israel.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        September 7, 2018, 11:46 pm

        Donald,

        I see here that

        Daphne is a lifelong socialist and a Jewish anti-Zionist fiercely opposed to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank. She is also a member of the Labour Party.

        she proposed a motion criticising Ken Livingstone for the remarks he made linking Nazism and Zionism

        Well,
        1. the linking was made by the Zionist leadership (at least) during the war. We have a couple of political agreements and a firm offer of armed alliance against the Allied! Try to beat that.
        2. The link is very explicitly between the Nazis and the Zionists. This …lady’s beloved fake nation or sincere religion is nowhere mentioned. Certainly not by Ken Livingstone, whom we have known as a fierce anti-racist combatant all these years. Unlike this “Daphne”.

        “Daphne’s view was that Ken (in her own words) “should not have invoked the name of Hitler as he did”

        That is the guy the Zonists offered an alliance against the Allied when WWII was in full swing. That’s the guy they made a deal with, to save the rich German Jews’ fortune. What other aliases did he use, so he won’t be called who he is?

        ” Daphne was made to feel, in her own words, “an agent of the Israeli state”.

        And very appropriately so. If she’s doing it knowingly or out of stupidity I can’t know. But certainly when someone who presents himherself as “anti-Zionist” and “fiercely opposed to Israel’s occupation” to a tiny part of Palestine, and then uses specious arguments to take down a stout defender of Palestinian resistance, every with a brain cell knows who she’s working for!

        I don’t want to open up the can of worms over whether Ken should or should not have said what he said: it’s neither here nor there for my purpose in telling this anecdote

        You sure opened it anyway. Why shouldn’t he say what is absolutely true and established?

      • Keith
        Keith
        September 8, 2018, 12:22 am

        DONALD- “I liked the Klug piece because he is trying to be nuanced.”

        Surely you jest. What seems obvious to Gamal and me seems to be incomprehensible to you. Such is life!

      • Keith
        Keith
        September 8, 2018, 12:52 am

        DONALD- “If it is the case that she misrepresented Livingstone she should have been criticized for that and not as an agent of Israel.”

        Is it possible to be this obtuse? There is no anti-Semitism problem in the UK. There is no anti-Semitism problem in the Labour Party. Raising the issue supports the Zionist agenda. Refusing to acknowledge the “problem” of anti-Semitism is the sane approach. “Daphne” represents the ongoing emphasis on anti-Semitism by the Jewish elite who derive benefit from victimhood. Her testimony lacks credibility. This whole anti-Semiticism issue is a PRETEXT to get at Corbyn and other Labour Party progressives, nothing more. All of these tribal anti-Zionists should be kicked out of the Labor Party. And if that results in a loss of funding, so be it. Why Jewish supremacists focus on bogus claims of anti-Semitism is lamentable but understandable. Why you give any credence to this BS is a bit of a mystery.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 8, 2018, 3:38 am

        Mooser: “Let’s look at how how basically anti-Semitic the US government is:”

        You are missing something:
        “Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded;
        Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide laws;”
        https://www.congress.gov/bill/102nd-congress/house-joint-resolution/104/text

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 8, 2018, 8:21 am

        || Donald: … So Brian Klug wrote this piece about antisemitism on the pro-Palestinian left, but he was specific about what he meant.

        https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/blog/zionism-antisemitism-left-today/ … ||

        Good article. Thanks for the link.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        September 8, 2018, 9:21 am

        Donald: If it is the case that she [Daphne] misrepresented Livingstone she should have been criticized for that and not as an agent of Israel.
        ———————————————–

        Btw, Klug never says that Daphne was criticized “as an agent of Israel.” According to Klug:

        Daphne was made to feel , in her own words, “an agent of the Israeli state”.

        Made to feel…” refers to Daphne’s emotional reaction to the criticism she received, not an objective description of that criticism.

      • Donald
        Donald
        September 8, 2018, 9:34 am

        Thanks eljay.

        Keith wrote—

        “Is it possible to be this obtuse? “

        Well, both of us are saying this about the other.

        Here is my position. We should be relentless in pointing out the racism of the people pushing the IHRA definition of antisemitism because they are really trying to shield Israeli crimes. This is the elephant in the room, the racism that goes unmentioned in mainstream coverage. We agree on this part.

        Where we diverge— I don’t think that people like Daphne are horrible tribalists and think it is insane to expel her from Labour. She might be wrong about whatever Livingstone said. This could be because she was misinformed— that is easy to believe given press coverage of this type of issue. Or she might be really sensitive on the subject of the Holocaust and reacted unfairly to Livingstone. Or for all I know, she might have said something perfectly reasonable. That doesn’t mean she is insincere in her antiZionism. People who have had entire branches of their family exterminated in the Holocaust might look at things differently from you—we aren’t talking about something that happened 1000 years ago.. It doesn’t mean Daphne is part of what is a plot by Blairite neoliberals to destroy Corbyn. I am not being sarcastic about the Blairite neoliberal plot. The New York Review piece I trashed recently basically said it was a war between the two factions and obviously that part of the piece was right. My point is that it might be convenient to assume every single person falls neatly into one of the two boxes, but real people are often more complicated.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        September 8, 2018, 9:46 am

        Donald, what’s your reaction to this passage by Klug:

        All too often, when a Jewish person — even an anti-Zionist anti-Occupation Jew — says they feel uncomfortable (or worse) with the way in which Jews or Israel are spoken about, the knee-jerk reaction is to scoff and to cry ‘Zionism’. We wouldn’t treat members of other racialised minorities this way. Then why the Jews?

        Half the article seems to be a plea for “safe spaces” for Jews where they can avoid feeling “uncomfortable” and be treated with special deference like any other oppressed minority (which they are not.)

      • Donald
        Donald
        September 8, 2018, 9:58 am

        “People who have had entire branches of their family exterminated in the Holocaust might look at things differently from you”

        That is the central point. When people talk about antisemitism in, say, the Middle Ages it seems largely academic. 1000 years ago or a bit longer many or most of us whose ancestors were in Eurasia and much of Africa will find our family trees crossing, and probably all of us have ancestors who were oppressing some of our other ancestors.

        But the Holocaust— there are still survivors around. There is no zero sum game here. One can condemn Zionist racism and understand that the Holocaust is a festering wound for people today, unlike some massacre that happened in the Crusades.

      • Keith
        Keith
        September 8, 2018, 11:16 am

        BRIAN KLUG- “People who have had entire branches of their family exterminated in the Holocaust might look at things differently from you”

        DONALD- “One can condemn Zionist racism and understand that the Holocaust is a festering wound for people today….”

        Over 60 million people died during WW II. That is a lot of “festering wounds.” Curious that only one extremely successful group gets to exploit their WW II experience. This “festering wound” seems to be getting worse, not better, as time goes by. In fact, the notion that the Holocaust was unique and marked the climax of irrational and eternal Gentile hatred of Jews was not prominent until after the 1967 (six day) war, after which the Zionists promoted the meme and aggressively exploited the Holocaust.

        “In the aftermath of World War II, the Nazi holocaust was not cast as a uniquely Jewish – let alone historically unique – event. Organized American Jewry in particular was at pains to place it in a universalist context. After the June war, however, the Nazi Final Solution was radically reframed.” (p42, “The Holocaust Industry,” Norman Finkelstein)

        The point being, Donald, is that the Holocaust does not gives Jews, even anti-Zionist Jews, any sort of privilege regarding censoring the speech of others. Nor does it justify Jewish hostility to non-Jews. And continuing to acquiesce to Zionist inspired myth-history is a losing proposition. And to continue to highlight this issue for 3 years tends to de facto reinforce this Zionist meme. Best to tell “Daphne” to shut the f*** up and move on.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 8, 2018, 1:12 pm

        “You are missing something”

        Oh, please! That resolution is all window dressing, full of mayonnaise. Where’s the horseradish?

        The fact is “Talkback” the damage is done, and is irreparable. The American Constitution has destroyed the Jewish people in America, by forcing that fatal poison, individual liberty and equality under the law on us.

        Damn the USA. It forced on Jews the condition they wouldn’t even force on African Americans and Native Americans!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 8, 2018, 1:20 pm

        “Daphne was made to feel , in her own words, “an agent of the Israeli state”.

        Good, her consciousness is being raised.

      • catalan
        catalan
        September 8, 2018, 4:46 pm

        “Curious that only one extremely successful group gets to exploit their WW II experience.”
        Keith,
        Nobody is “exploiting” anything. The rate of death among Jews, especially civilians, is the highest of any other group. Rate, not absolute amount. So virtually all Lithuanian, polish, Greek, Belorussian and Hungarian Jews were killed even though there were plenty of non Jewish Belorussians, Lithuanians, and Poles left after the war. Other groups, notably the Russian political commissars suffered extreme casualties too – but note that they were mostly adult men; and that komissars represented a small percentage of the total population. You are also lumping civilian and military deaths. The percentage of Jews among total civilian deaths is remarkably high given their small overall percentage.

      • Donald
        Donald
        September 8, 2018, 7:06 pm

        “Donald, what’s your reaction to this passage by Klug:

        All too often, when a Jewish person — even an anti-Zionist anti-Occupation Jew — says they feel uncomfortable (or worse) with the way in which Jews or Israel are spoken about, the knee-jerk reaction is to scoff and to cry ‘Zionism’. We wouldn’t treat members of other racialised minorities this way. Then why the Jews?”

        ———————————-

        It depends on what was being said. In some cases I would probably side with the critics and in others I might think Krug had a point. If the Jewish person felt uncomfortable because Israel or Zionism were being criticized, I don’t think I would care. Krug includes Israel in that, so I would have to know what sorts of things he had in mind. But most of the time I probably wouldn’t sympathize with someone upset because Israel was criticized. If it was something like what Daphne claimed, I would feel more sympathy with her. Assuming her description of what happened is accurate, of course. As you say, we are going by her description and how she felt.

      • Keith
        Keith
        September 8, 2018, 7:40 pm

        CATALAN- “The rate of death among Jews, especially civilians, is the highest of any other group.”

        “Is” the highest? Currently, objective data demonstrates that Jews are a beleagured minority? Why don’t you update your data to reflect current reality. Will an honest rendition of statistics demonstrate that Jews suffer more violence than Gentiles? Are more frequent victims of police brutality? Have been held down in a permanent underclass? Are a disproportionate group in the prison population? The data would show the opposite. Jewish wealth and power exceeds most (all?) other non-Jewish groupings. Continuing to claim victimhood based upon events during World War II is a rather obvious exploitation of the Holocaust. And you might want to read “The Holocaust Industry” by Norman Finkelstein for more detail.

        “From a purely instrumental standpoint, the Shoah proved the greatest asset ever acquired by Zionism, one seduously cultivated over the years.” (p66, “Overcoming Zionism,” Joel Kovel)

      • catalan
        catalan
        September 8, 2018, 8:39 pm

        “Jewish wealth and power exceeds most (all?) other non-Jewish groupings. “ Keith

        Keith,
        Wealth is objective, power is subjective. There are plenty of wealthy non Jews with China leading the list of new billionaires. About the Jews, they were literally annihiliated from most of Europe by the Nazis and their helpers (at a 90 percent rate in the main areas of the Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, and Bielorussia. ). There are a few mostly elderly Jews left in these places hardly powerful billionaires. This article

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_during_World_War_II

        provides the percentage of death among Jews. 96 percent of Lithuanian Jews were killed.
        Perhaps you speak of American Jews. I will grant you that they did well. But you are mixing topics and using too broad of a brush for a focused discussion.

      • Donald
        Donald
        September 9, 2018, 12:08 am

        “The rate of death among Jews, especially civilians, is the highest of any other group. Rate, not absolute amount. So virtually all Lithuanian, polish, Greek, Belorussian and Hungarian Jews were killed even though there were plenty of non Jewish Belorussians, Lithuanians, and Poles left after the war.”

        It’s rare that I agree with catalan, but this is a non controversial point. Though I don’t know the Roma death rate.

        We got into the Holocaust discussion in part because “ Daphne” in the Klug article said Jews were sensitive about the topic. Duh. I don’t know how universal that is but it is beyond obvious that this would be the case of a great many. I had a Jewish friend ( he died young a few years ago) who had family in Eastern Europe, the key word there being “ had”, as virtually all were wiped out. It just seems like common decency to try to avoid giving unnecessary offense on that subject and you can do that without allowing it to be used as justification for oppressing Palestinians. And it also seems to me that Daphne was probably treated unfairly by that group, though of course we only have her side of it. But it sounded plausible to me, because people involved in heated political arguments often behave like jerks. We all have that tendency, one way or another. She could have been corrected on whatever misrepresentation she was guilty of without being assumed to be a Zionist, which she isn’t.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 9, 2018, 1:25 pm

        “We wouldn’t treat members of other racialised minorities this way. Then why the Jews?”

        ROTFLMSJAO!! I guess it depends on if you have been “racialised” by society, and are seeking equality and respect, or if you are trying to “racialise” yourself, on your own terms, and to your own advantage.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 9, 2018, 1:54 pm

        “Perhaps you speak of American Jews. I will grant you that they did well” “catalan”

        Yes, yes, did real good. But the 2008-9 financial collapse wiped a tremendous amount of that out. Nobody likes to talk about it, but it hit us especially hard, due to many factors.

      • Stephen Shenfield
        Stephen Shenfield
        September 9, 2018, 3:03 pm

        What Mooser says about the US also applies to the European Enlightenment, starting with the French Revolution. “To the Jew as an individual, everything. To the Jews as a group, nothing” (Napoleon). When the French revolutionaries offered civil and political rights to Jews as citizens, the rabbis opposed it as a threat to their control over the Jewish communities. But the revolutionaries insisted on giving the Jews individual rights, whether they wanted them or not!

      • Keith
        Keith
        September 9, 2018, 5:48 pm

        CATALAN- “Wealth is objective, power is subjective.”

        Are you joking? The very essence of capitalism is the monetization of power. Money is power, economic power in fluid form, the primary instrument of social control. Wealth bestows power. How the wealthy choose to use (or not use) that power is the only variable. Jewish Zionist fat-cats like Sheldon Adelson, Haim Saban, Robert Singer, George Soros, etc., have chosen to use their power in support of Israel as a Jewish state, and of protecting the privileged status of Jews in the US and elsewhere. Well funded Jewish organizations such as AIPAC and the rest of those in the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations also pursue a Zionist agenda. They all contribute in influencing the electoral process to promote those who share their agenda. They also act directly in the political economy to promote their agenda through numerous NGOs and think tanks, financing Birth Right tours and settlement construction, and by saturating our society with Holocaust movies, museums, books, curricula, programs and, recently, the passage of laws and guidelines intended to silence criticism of Israel and the discussion of Jewish power in the political economy. And based upon the recent articles by Norman Finkelstein on Mondoweiss, we can assume that British Jews are at least as relatively privileged as their American counterparts.

        This is the reality you try to obfuscate by always steering the discussion back to the Holocaust, even going so far as to imply that the death of high percentages of European Jews killed by the Nazis somehow privileges British Jews to pass laws and establish rules favorable to themselves, even though Britain provided refuge to Jews fleeing the Nazis. That the percent of Lithuanian Jews killed in World War II is more relevant to the issue under discussion that the ongoing smearing of Jeremy Corbyn by his opponents is yet another attempt to drown us all in the Holocaust. Is not Britain’s support of empire and Saudi Arabia in the ongoing slaughter in Yemen more relevant to contemporary British politics than the historical fate of the Lituanian Jews? Is not the reality of neoliberal globalization on the lives of the majority of the citizenry more important that bogus charges of anti-Semitism in support of the very forces of the ongoing impoverishment of the 99%? And has not the spectacular success of Jewish Zionists caused organized Jewry to move far to the right? A quote from Norman Finkelstein.

        “In the pages that follow, I will argue that “The Holocaust” is an ideological representation of the Nazi holocaust. Like most ideologies, it bears a connection, if tenuous, with reality. The Holocaust is not an arbitrary but rather an internally coherent construct. Its central dogmas sustain significant political and class interests. Indeed, The Holocaust has proven to be an indispensable ideological weapon. Through it deployment, one of the world’s most formidable military powers, with a horrendous human rights record, has cast itself as a “victim” state, and the most successful ethnic group in the United States has likewise acquired victim status. Considerable dividends accrue from this specious victimhood – in particular, immunity to criticism, however justified.” (p3, “The Holocaust Industry,” Norman Finkelstein)

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      September 7, 2018, 12:18 pm

      Don’t you dare tell me (or anyone else in the Jewish community) what antisemitism is

      It’s pure bullsh|t, used to beat the people you crazies don’t like. If it’s meant to describe prejudice for the fact of being born nominally Jewish, it doesn’t deserve a fancy name but that of “racism”, like for any form of racism.

      If it’s anything else, it’s not directed at any inborn characteristic, so it is free speech discussing some acquired thing that can be disacquired, always open to criticism.

      Yapping orders won’t change that.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      September 7, 2018, 12:50 pm

      . “40% of British Jews are considering emigrating if Corbin becomes PM.”

      “Hophmi”, is that a threat, or a promise?

      “Don’t you dare tell me (or anyone else in the Jewish community) what antisemitism is.”

      And if you do, the IHRA will haul your ass into court!

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      September 7, 2018, 9:27 pm

      Why do only Jews get to decide what is and what isn’t anti-Semitism? Shouldn’t we anti-Semites have a say, even if only about the spelling?

      I would say that modern, Twenty-first Century, anti-Semitism is a matter of treating Jews like everyone else, and denying them special privileges.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        September 8, 2018, 4:36 am

        The UK health system, the NHS , has had an annual average cost increase of 3.7% in 70 years due to aging , cost of medical advances and cost of treating people who would otherwise be dead. Since 2011 cost increases have been capped at 1%, meaning rationing and a poorer service. This is now reflected in poorer life expectancy. The UK has poor public health and many inequalities that drive disease.

        To put the interests of Israel ahead of the life expectancy of UK citizens is venal . It is also typically Zionist.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 8, 2018, 1:27 pm

        ” Shouldn’t we anti-Semites have a say, even if only about the spelling?”

        “RoHa”, if it will help change your self-conception, might I say that I, too, prefer the simple, whole word “antisemitism” without the hyphen or that stupid capital on “Semitism”.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 8, 2018, 5:47 pm

        Ahh, the changes I’ve seen. Why, I remember when I was a kid, antisemitism was something Jewish people were afraid of, or anxious about. But now it’s something we make others afraid of or anxious about, and all without a single Jew being harmed in the making of all this antisemitism.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 8, 2018, 10:09 pm

        I would prefer it. It would certainly be easier to type, and follow the pattern of “anticlockwise”, “antihistamine”, and “antimacassar”.

        But we do also have the pattern of “anti-Arab”, “anti-British”, “anti-Chinese”, and so forth. That is because we know who the Arabs, the British, and the Chinese are. Should we allow these mysterious Semites to keep their capital letter, or should we downgrade them along with Macassar oil?

        I say “downgrade”, but will the OED agree?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 9, 2018, 1:37 pm

        “Anticlockwise”? A female relative who lives above the Equator?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 9, 2018, 10:51 pm

        Same as “widdershins”.

        I believe you Americans say “counterclockwise”, just to be contrary.

  14. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    September 7, 2018, 7:41 am

    @amigo
    “Some good News .Joan Ryan MP, ( Chair of Labour Friends of Israel ) loses vote of no confidence and immediately calls the members , Trots/Stalinist’s/Communists and assorted Hard Left”

    She didn`t call them “Anti- Semites”. Probably phoned up the Israeli Embassy and was advised to back off on this for the moment. I get a sense that now that the NEC has given them their kosher pound of flesh ie the IHRA definition they may be a little a little bit confused as to what to do next:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRJby3PCfbo

    Worth pointing out that the “noble” Ms Ryan has a chequered history in certain areas to put it mildly:
    “A former Labour MP who claimed expenses for a second home when her constituency was just 14 miles from Westminster has been chosen by her party to fight the next election”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/10138520/Labour-reselect-Joan-Ryan-former-MP-criticised-over-expenses.html

    Such a bind living so far from “work” she just had to get a second home to be nearer her desk. Worth mentioning of course that one of her least favourite “Anti-Semitic Trots” actually cycles to Parliament from his North London constituency:
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/campaign-buy-jeremy-corbyn-bicycle-7177576

  15. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    September 7, 2018, 10:09 am

    @Hophmi
    ” 40% of British Jews are considering emigrating if Corbin becomes PM.”

    I hope that they have the good grace to return all their Knighthoods/Damehoods/Lordships when they leave and also give up their right of return to their modern historic homeland.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      September 7, 2018, 8:59 pm

      Knighthoods, etc., for Jews in famously anti-Semitic Britain? Surely you jest!

      You might just as well say that the Chief Rabbi will be treated as one of the Lords Spiritual and have a seat in the House of Lords.

      Fantasy!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 8, 2018, 1:39 pm

        “Knighthoods, etc., for Jews in famously anti-Semitic Britain? Surely you jest!”

        Jews as Knights? Forsooth, ’tis a sorry plight,
        that renders my attitude bluish. We don’t wanna be no knights, that’s no job for a boy who is Jewish!
        All day with the mighty sword, and the mighty steed and the mighty lance. All day with that heavy shield, and a pair of aluminum pants!

  16. Donald
    Donald
    September 7, 2018, 11:56 am

    oops. I almost double posted.

  17. catalan
    catalan
    September 7, 2018, 12:32 pm

    I think that for something to be offensive someone needs to get offended. I don’t get offended if someone doesn’t like Jews (because they are rich, or Bolshevik, or Zionist). All attempts of policing thought are doomed; thus, I think that all ideas, including racist ones, do belong in the public space.
    The Nazis didn’t happen because of antisemitism; but because of totalitarianism. The best defense against genocide and so on is a system of good checks and balances, respected judiciary and an apolitical army. That prevents both right and left extremes: so Danish socialism is different from the Venezuelan one because Denmark has checks and balances and Venezuela has the former truck driver Maduro as a “dear leader” (authoritarianism).
    We just have to accept that human beings will rarely like everyone equally (thus we are all “racists”). But the result of that need not be the Holocaust. Thus, I like more open antisemitism than the one that’s so lost in semantics that it gives you a headache.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      September 7, 2018, 3:56 pm

      “catalan” if you are reincarnated as a fish, it’ll be a flounder.

      • catalan
        catalan
        September 7, 2018, 4:43 pm

        “catalan” if you are reincarnated as a fish, it’ll be a flounder.” Mooser
        This is from someone who believes that their choices of chocolatiers and soft drinks will help Hamas and that Lana Del Rey cancelling a concert will “force” the Israeli government to invite 10 million Arabs to settle, with benefits.
        Therefore, it’s hard to feel insulted.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        September 7, 2018, 6:16 pm

        Catalan

        LDR won’t move the needle but she is a sign that Israel smells funny. If I were you I would be more concerned about the London Fly posters and the hysterical reaction to them. A lot of not necessarily political people thought Israel wanted a 2 state solution and are pissed off with Israel’s decision. Even Max Hastings turned off Israel in 2014. Perhaps the best thing is that Israel now is no longer bipartisan. It is going to be an election issue. The occupation is not acceptable and neither is whining about antisemitism. It’s a pity Israel was never run on Jewish lines.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        September 7, 2018, 7:47 pm

        If you really believe that anyone

        believes that their choices of chocolatiers and soft drinks will help Hamas and that Lana Del Rey cancelling a concert will “force” the Israeli government to invite 10 million Arabs to settle, with benefits

        then you are way beyond even your apparent intelligence level.

    • Keith
      Keith
      September 7, 2018, 5:06 pm

      CATALAN- “Denmark has checks and balances and Venezuela has the former truck driver Maduro as a “dear leader” (authoritarianism).”

      I find it curious that you continue to sneak in imperial propaganda regarding the empire’s “enemies.” Yet, this is consistent with your support for Zionism. After all, Uncle Sam is soaked in South American blood. This probably appeals to your inner Sabra.

    • annie
      annie
      September 7, 2018, 7:55 pm

      The best defense against genocide and so on is a system of good checks and balances, respected judiciary and an apolitical army.

      none of which israel has.

      Thus, I like more open antisemitism than the one that’s so lost in semantics that it gives you a headache.

      yet you don’t brag about supporting apartheid and slaughtering protestors. rather hypocritical of you.

    • eljay
      eljay
      September 7, 2018, 8:03 pm

      || catalan: … The best defense against genocide and so on is a system of good checks and balances, respected judiciary and an apolitical army. … ||

      Uh-oh. The non-Jews of geographic Palestine are in big trouble.  :-(

    • catalan
      catalan
      September 7, 2018, 8:12 pm

      Annie,
      Actually I am not as crazy about Israel’s system; but I just don’t see the alternatives offered by you as viable – for example a single state where everyone gets along; or a return of 12 million people to Israel; and for that matter the methods chosen by you I see as beyond ludicrous – like “boycotting” Dr Pepper or cheering concert cancellations.
      Perhaps the younger people there will find some more satisfactory way forward. More likely we are looking at a permanent conflict (or just beyond my life expectancy).

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 8, 2018, 2:47 am

        catalan: “… and for that matter the methods chosen by you I see as beyond ludicrous – like “boycotting” Dr Pepper or cheering concert cancellations.”

        Catalan and his constant need to belittle BDS, because he either can’t grasp or won’t cope with its success:

        BDS success stories
        More than the achievements of the economic, academic and cultural boycott, BDS has succeeded in undermining the greatest asset of Israeli public diplomacy: Israel’s liberal and democratic image in the world.
        https://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page/.premium-bds-success-stories-1.6455621

        BDS: how a controversial non-violent movement has transformed the Israeli-Palestinian debate
        https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/14/bds-boycott-divestment-sanctions-movement-transformed-israeli-palestinian-debate

      • catalan
        catalan
        September 8, 2018, 8:41 am

        “Catalan and his constant need to belittle BDS, because he either can’t grasp or won’t cope with its success:” Talkback
        It will be a success when there is a Palestinian state, the blockade is lifted, the refugees and their descendants return and the laws of Israel get changed. These are the goals of BDS so a success means meeting those goals and not an article in the Guardan or Haaretz. Let’s see how much Dr Pepper needs to not be drunk and how many Nestle bars do not get eaten for the Gaza blockade to get lifted. However, if your definition of success is having articles written about you by the left wing press then you are indeed successful and I wish you many more such articles. I wonder if the people Gaza care that much about the two articles that you so revere; I would have thought that they want the blockade lifted. And it was Annie that tweeted about boycotting Nestle, Wonderbra and Dr Pepper. Why is mentioning that “belittling”?

      • annie
        annie
        September 8, 2018, 10:18 am

        don’t make up stories (lies) about non existent tweets catalan.

        as for your strawmanning (yes, that is what it’s called when you pretend the publication of an article [if your definition of success is having articles written about you]is the so called success rather than the information in the article and then argue against the strawman instead of the information in the article), unimpressive.

        BDS has succeeded in undermining the greatest asset of Israeli public diplomacy: Israel’s liberal and democratic image in the world.

        just say israel’s image is not important. the more you say it, the less convincing it becomes.

        I would have thought that they want the blockade lifted.

        what was it you were saying about appreciating openness about ones bigotry? or is this you being ‘lost in semantics that giving us a headache.’ your sadistic tendencies are showing again.

      • catalan
        catalan
        September 8, 2018, 11:00 am

        “don’t make up stories (lies) about non existent tweets catalan.”
        You retweeted two weeks ago a listing of companies which included Wonderbra, Victoria Secret, Dr Pepper, Nestle and others. An article is just that that – an article. The Guardian and Haaretz are liberal and therefore making mountains out of molehills, “the public image of Israel” and so on pompous BSing in which journalists specialize. The numbers are clear – Israel has higher GDP per capita that France and England, it has higher life expectancy than almost the whole world, and it is higher on the happiness scale than almost the whole world. As to your “sadistic” swipe at me – to you the whole world is “sadistic”, you overuse the word and render it meaningless. Go ahead, try to use an iron rod to stop a customer from entering Walmart and see how that works out for you!

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        September 8, 2018, 11:36 am

        catalan: “Let’s see how much Dr Pepper needs to not be drunk and how many Nestle bars do not get eaten for the Gaza blockade to get lifted. ”

        Yep, you still don’t get that it’s not about Dr. Pepper or Nestle bars, but about the arguments it uses which undermine Israel’s image as a liberal democracy on which its international support is based upon. Including the fact that it brought Israel to react in an anti-democratic and anti-free-speech counter-campaign.

        In sincerely wish that every Zionist wouldn’t get it until it is too late. But contrary to most of its thick supporters it sees BDS as an existential threat to the Jewish state. But please continue thinking that it is about Dr. Pepper, Nestle or the Wonderbra. Israel needs you!

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        September 8, 2018, 4:06 pm

        Having read a number of “Catalan”s postings, I’ll bet anything he isn’t pretending. He really doesn’t get it. That is neither her nor there,though: Zionists don’t need to understand it. They aren’t invited to participate to the boycott, which will do much better without them in any case.”Catalan” will understand right away, if he ever has a business and get boycotted and (law-abidingly) picketed.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 8, 2018, 6:24 pm

        “Israel is…” “catalan”

        …not a place you can abscond to with no fear of extradition. You don’t want to let your imagination run away with you, “catalan”.

  18. Mooser
    Mooser
    September 7, 2018, 5:03 pm

    “Therefore, it’s hard to feel insulted.”

    “catalan” you don’t need to tell me that. I could see right away that it was going to be difficult to insult you.

  19. Boomer
    Boomer
    September 8, 2018, 6:59 am

    Thanks for a good analysis, Mr. Johnson. I don’t find any reason to disagree with the fine points you make. At the same time, it seems to me that the Zionists have won. They control the facts on the ground in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank. They likewise control the mainstream media narrative, public discourse and government policy in the US (and, it seems, in the UK). Some will say that I must be an anti-semite of the Protocols school, if I am willing to say such a thing. But more importantly, I know that I can’t accomplish anything to change that reality. “Push back” is a worthy endeavor, no doubt. I hope that you and others, younger, more influential than I, can accomplish something.

    • Donald
      Donald
      September 9, 2018, 12:18 am

      “At the same time, it seems to me that the Zionists have won”

      Seems like they won this round, but I don’t know British politics and so don’t know if the pro Palestinian side can do something about what has happened.

      I was hoping Labour would not cave in on the IHRA examples, because it would eventually force the US press to cover it more thoroughly. Up until the most recent story, I thought the NYT was actually pretty fair in its coverage, but I only saw a couple of earlier stories along with a couple of opinion pieces ( which stunk). A continued fight would have meant more coverage here and more chances for people to see someone standing up for Palestinian rights. It seems like there is less chance of that now.

  20. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    September 8, 2018, 7:12 am

    @catalan

    “Thus, I like more open antisemitism than the one that’s so lost in semantics that it gives you a headache”

    Ah you mean like the IHRA definition.

    “Semantic Anti – Semitism” – it definitely has a ring has a certain ring to it

  21. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    September 8, 2018, 11:08 am

    For a true appreciation of the honour,integrity and intellect of Jeremy Corbyn especially for those MW `ers out there who are less knowlegeable about the man. Compare with the rabid repetitive attack dogs on the panel. He is quiet assured logical and respectful in his conduct and in his responses. They are loud , aggressive and bombastic. Worst offender is the creepy Blairite Chuka Ummuna who happily is called to account for veering wildly off the A/S Panel subject to have his own individual (revived)l leadership bid ? pop at the Momentum group within the Labour Party Movement. Even the slippery Keith Vaz as chair calls him out on that one.

    https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/89a8f38d-0676-4873-b388-46666415e8bf

    Again for M`Weissers who may not be aware Momentum is a new group within the Labour Movement whose members are largely young very active and yes significantly Anti – Zionist.
    https://peoplesmomentum.com/about/

    Ummuna is an interesting individual if only because he is listed as a Friend of Israel MP:

    And would you believe it is also listed as a Labour Friend of Palestine MP:
    https://www.lfpme.org/supporters

    Having his cake and eating it ? Hedging his bets ? A mole of some kind? Some questions should be asked by Party Members in his constituency at the very least.

  22. montereypinegreen
    montereypinegreen
    September 8, 2018, 6:23 pm

    It doesn’t matter any more to bigots that the term “anti-Semitism” is used. The charge just a facade and a dog whistle to anti-Arabs everywhere. Does anybody seriously believe the State of Israel is in existential danger any more? Hard to believe when it possesses nuclear weapons and was able to “take out” the Iraqi reactor.

    It’s all about the mega-bucks that influence Congress and the mega-bucks the defense industry makes by doing so. “Anti-Semitism” is a dog whistle to whip up hate, just like our would-be dictator used “birth certificate” to whip up hate against an African-American president.

  23. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    September 9, 2018, 6:53 am

    The “most moral” are at it again in pursuit of their racist Zionist dreams
    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/video-shows-16-year-old-gazan-shot-by-israeli-soldiers-while-waving-hands-1.6463970

    Well Mr.Mann,Mr Ummuna Ms Hodge, Ms Ryan,Ms Ellman I wonder what you would have to say about this if asked. Let me think “right to defend” “right to secure borders” Puke Puke. And Ms Smeeth no doubt you would be brimming with tears (crocodile or otherwise) at the thought of what this 16 year could have done to your beloved fellow Zionists if that courageous IDF soldier had not morally neutralised him.

    Remember those who support endorse ignore cold blooded murder are if anything worse than the murderers themselves. Just like those who supported endorsed or ignored the Holocaust.

  24. gamal
    gamal
    September 9, 2018, 7:13 am

    for those interested in the minutiae of CLP politics:

    “Now the SKWAWKBOX has an exclusive account from the youth member subjected to the death-threat and attempted assaults of the events – and what took place before. The member in question has asked not to be identified:

    I was the youth member threatened by one of Joan Ryan’s allies in the hall for death threats (which I had to call the police for) and before the meeting, her allies were standing outside with cameras harassing members who were entering with chants such as “NO TO CORBYN, YES TO RYAN”, waving the flag of Israel. One of the the protesters, who had a camera, was apparently from the recent BBC programme “We are British Jews”. ”

    https://skwawkbox.org/2018/09/08/excl-victim-of-attempted-assault-death-threat-by-ryan-supporter-speaks/

    as to the ihra nonsense never has a victory been more pyrrhic, you have to hand it to Joan just a stream of insane right wing slurs hurled at her own party, i guess no one was offended in any meaningful way.

  25. inbound39
    inbound39
    September 10, 2018, 3:16 pm

    I am 64 years of age and non Jewish. I have always prided myself as not being racist. I come from racist parents and I appreciate my racist fathers advice he gave me that if I wanted to speak from authority on religion then I needed to read the King James version of the Bible cover to cover and he gave me his own. He asked me later if I had read it and is said I had. He gave me his own personal copy of the King James Bible he was given as a child. I still have it.

    I never really knew of nor had I heard the term anti semitism until I was in my Forties when I began to take a serious interest in what was happening in Palestine. My father told me as a child that if something was truly wrong you would feel it in the pit of your stomach and you would feel sickened. I felt that feeling everytime I read about Israel and Palestine. I felt that when I read about American Indians and their fate. I felt like that when I read about Scotland and their fate under England and its laws.

    I feel extremely nauseated when I read about Zionism as I also feel when I read about Nazism. According to records 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. 25 million Russians died in WW2. Israel the Jewish State plays the Holocaust card and gets billions of dollars in aid to purchase weapons that it uses to ethnically cleanse and kill Palestinians so it can have a land free of Palestinian Arabs. It also is allowed impunity with regard to international law and Human Rights and UN Resolutions. I have never seen Russia speak about incessantly their losses in WW2. Nor do they expect billions in Aid or weaponry to drive religious types or races out of their country nor do they expect impunity. Russia gets on with life and makes the best of its nation under its own steam. Little to no help from anyone.

    The IHRA Deinition of Anti Semitism proposed by Zionism is simply a get out of jail card for them and is useful in shutting down talk they disagree with. I am not racist. If something is wrong and I feel that feeling in the pit of my stomach I will say it,IHRA Definition or not. I can trust my gut. It has kept me safe and kept noxious people out of my life for years. I talk to and try to understand all peoples. Some do not want to be understood. Zionism keeps shifting the goals so I do not trust it one bit and it nauseates me.

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