How long can MSM hold out against the savage poetry of citizen journalists?

by on January 21, 2009 22

17 Last week I had a conversation with a friend in the mainstream media about whether the bloggers in Gaza are reliable. Of course he has a point. But at a time when there were few mainstream reporters in there: please. Above is an unsigned photo from Hebron in the West Bank posted on January 16 on Flickr, by The International Solidarity Movement.  (My friend Mohammad of Canada sent it to me.) It purports to show a 17-year-old Palestinian demonstrator killed by the Israeli army. To me it is a staggering photo. As beautiful as the famous Eddie Adams AP shot of the  Vietnamese lieutenant shooting the man in the head from the 60s, or the Robert Capa image of the Spanish civil war soldier killed in the 30s. I know, this picture it is not as composed as either of those shots. Here the beauty is about demonstration, resistance, state terror, international observers. And what is in his hand? Is ISM right about the 17-year-old? I don't know. I know that they are right about the larger situation. Here is another shot for you, from Eva Bartlett of ISM, who was in Gaza. Hospital It is said to be a photo of Al-Quds Hospital in Gaza City, following an Israeli shelling. Is it accurate? I believe it is. I believe that Eva Bartlett took her role as a documenter of horror as seriously as any reporter ever has, and god bless her. Consider the incredible poetry of that shot. A hospital. The destruction of poor people's hospitals, in which American Jewish leadership was ardently implicated. Need anything more be said? (Phil Weiss)

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.
Posted in Israel/Palestine

{ 22 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. My tax dollar at work says:
    January 21, 2009 at 10:32 am

    Richard Witty wants you to know that both of these photos are clearly doctored by Hamas symps and that Israel has only been handing out food and water to the starving.

  2. citizen says:
    January 21, 2009 at 10:32 am

    Some day the same old photos and movie images will be reprocessed via the History Channel for a variety of shows. Then, it will be Palestinians, not european Jews holding center state. The AIPAC-MADOFF USA will be the evil, as in Obama's benediction–white gentiles will take the hit, not ashkenazi jews. They will have moved on, as they always do–at least those of them leftover from
    Hitler's ovens. History will repeat itself. Two diverse narratives will follow, as they always do.

    Has anyone ever read a history book that takes decent account of the very real and practical fear Germans and other europeans had during the Weimar period, of communism, so much top-heavy in jewish actors? They actually took over whole German states back then, though most Americans have no clue. At most they saw the movie Cabaret. And barely a few of them, at that.

  3. Richard Witty says:
    January 21, 2009 at 10:37 am

    They're not clear.

    Only one predisposed to conclude could possibly bear any conclusion from either of the photos.

    They could be conflict between Hamas and Fatah, conflict between Hamas police and street wars.

    Don't get wierd on this Phil.

    Would it be valid evidence if you were the accused?

  4. Me says:
    January 21, 2009 at 11:00 am

    @Witty:

    Well, a picture with people ducking could also be from a fire excercise in North Dakota yet some source could say it's from Sderot.

    Would it be valid evidence if you were the accused?

  5. Colin Murray says:
    January 21, 2009 at 11:11 am

    Richard, this isn't about evidence for a court of law, it's about fools sewing with fire and sword, and anxiously glancing around wondering who will stand with them come time of reaping.

  6. citizen says:
    January 21, 2009 at 11:19 am

    Witty doesn't know s_from shinola about law. He's an accountant. They excel in hiding money under differently named shells.

  7. Richard Witty says:
    January 21, 2009 at 11:27 am

    What is it a picture of?

    I can't tell, can you?

  8. Colin Murray says:
    January 21, 2009 at 11:36 am

    I wish I knew Hebrew. Alas, I do not so I'm posting this link in case someone gets a hankering to share the details with the rest of us. I just saw it this morning, but can't remember which site had it linked.

    http://www.wanted.org.il/tzipi_livni.htm

  9. Me says:
    January 21, 2009 at 11:48 am

    "What is it a picture of?

    I can't tell, can you?"

    Man, you are some slow person. The point here is wether you believe the person who made the picture when said person tells you what the picture is of.

    And now, admit it, you don't trust someone who sympathizes with Palestinians, he might be a Jew-eating monster.

  10. Craig says:
    January 21, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    Witty's attitude is characteristic of dishonest partisans. When there is a claim of wrongdoing against Israel, he demands absolute proof on a level seldom found outside of mathematics textbooks, but at the same time he is amazingly credulous about the claims made by Israel.

  11. Eurosabra says:
    January 21, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Where are the "wanted" posters of Haniya and Mashaal, even if only for their crimes against Palestinians?

    The only consolation I have is that in the case of an overwhelming Islamist victory, the anti-Zionist left will experience death and dhimmitude as well.

    We are NOT Boers or pieds-noirs, and the sooner Hamas understands that, the less suffering for all. (Ditto for the State of Israel refining its understanding of Palestinians.)

  12. Richard Witty says:
    January 21, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    You guys are gullible.

  13. Eurosabra says:
    January 21, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    The publishers of the wanted posters are a bunch of literalists, who could indict EVERY major Arab figure in the dispute, but only go after Israelis.

    "Wanted: For Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes, Sayid Hassan Nasrallah."

    1)Bombardment of civilian populations.
    2)Placing military installations in civilian areas, to attempt to render them immune.
    3)Coercively maintaining military installations in civilian areas.
    4)Aggressive war in violation of the restrictions of UNC Chapter 51, UNSCR 425, UNSCR 1701.
    5)Ordering the murder of a Lebanese Air Force Helicopter pilot.

    etc. etc. etc.

    Occasionally there is an Israeli "projet de loi" to make giving evidence to the Hague about other Israelis a criminal offense. I hope that this gets handled by the civil/criminal code right away, for fear of what Israelis will do to KAPOS if/when any Hague Aktion comes to pass.

  14. Colin Murray says:
    January 21, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    How many images are there in which can one tell everything that is going on? That's why there there is such a thing as 'metadata'. Implicit in your questions is that this source is lying until proven otherwise. Should we neutrals apply this standard to Palestinians and not to Israelis? No.

    You have appeared to me quite willing to take everything out of Israeli government and diaspora media at face value. Do you not see a double-standard here? Have you even looked at the ISM site?

    Richard, Richard, Richard :shaking head in bewildered admonishment:, the killing of Palestinian minors and young men is a regular non-event during the quietest of times. It may indeed turn out to be a fake, but such a killing is far from implausible now, and in the context of Haaretz reports of IDF use of live ammo against demonstrators in the West Bank, I will assume that it is accurate until proven otherwise. I suspect your objection is that a poignant image has been captured that may encapsulate colonization and occupation in the minds of 10's of millions of people around the world.

  15. Colin Murray says:
    January 21, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    "We are NOT Boers or pieds-noirs…"

    You are so far down in the forest undergrowth, you cannot see the under canopy, much less the forest. No, you are not Boers or pied-noirs, you are Zionists. Are there substantive differences? Please explain them.

  16. LeaNder says:
    January 21, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    The thing in its hand looks like a bucket to me. Shape and the way he holds it suggest this. Is he in the process of falling or did he only slip over something, choose his steps carelessly? The image itself surely leaves doubt.

    This would really need serial shots and ideally shots from different perspectives with the person aiming.

    I am sure, if he is shot, the Israeli intelligence/military will have the best documentation of the event.

    There surely is a mindset out there that would be pleased if the last person on earth wouldn't trust a single Palestinian or Solidarity movement photo. As if they felt with the image they could wipe out the whole godawful reality in Palestine, at least no one would see it. I had peculiar encounters with someone trying to convince me that close to 100% of photos like the one below are antisemitic, faked or have only propaganda reason. I know, I trust the story of this artist much more than the person, who tried to convince me of the hidden reasons he has.

  17. Eurosabra says:
    January 21, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    There is the indigenous Jewish population of Palestine, and the fact that a near-majority of Jews in Israel are descendants of Jews of Arab, Kurdish, and Berber language and culture. Fateh's Charter recognizes the first ("Jews resident before 1917 are Palestinian") but except for one article ("Time to meet the Mizrahim?") secular Palestinian nationalism has yet to deal with the second.

    I am assuming that national categories matter, because if they don't, then a Kahane Chai solution is as legitimate as a Hamas one if we're speaking of a religion-based solution. It just becomes "Who/Whom?"

    Most "national" solutions in Israel-Palestine are an attempt to draw lines of citizenship to suit the particular advocate's goals. And since Israel exists as a state, and Palestine has proto-state structures, a two-state solution is currently most likely to preserve two communities.

    Any breakdown of order sufficient to destroy state structures is going to lead to an imposed solution which is likely to be illiberal. Croatia is an example. The US is not really willing to see its allies overrun. You may intend to re-define Israel as a non-ally, but to me as a Jew "a stranger everywhere and nowhere at home" is nothing new. Of course that is also partly because I am one of the few Israeli Jews who has always lived with Palestinians. Embracing that ambiguity (as Jerusalem Palestinians have functionally done, whatever their claimed loyalties) is one way out for those of us who actually *come from there*.

  18. LeaNder says:
    January 21, 2009 at 1:29 pm


    What is it a picture of?

    I can't tell, can you?

    Richard, this is definitively nonsense. What do you associate with the smoke in combination with the movements of these obviously young guys? Does it suggest a carnival to you, with the smoke being firecrackers? And the guy in the left foreground playing a Palestinian?

    Or is this your angry crowd the fear for every balanced person on earth? So we have to study the genetic roots to get rid of this ancient emotion that ALWAYS causes harm?

  19. LeaNder says:
    January 21, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    You guys are gullible.

    So many liars that "feign" to report form experience. Behind the photo above is a witness, remember? Like Patrick Lang in an article on the IDF groundforces:

    In Beit Suhur outside Bethlehem, I have seen IDF troops shoot at Palestinian Christian women hanging out laundry in their gardens. This was done with tank coaxial machine guns from within a bermed up dirt fort a couple of hundred yards away, and evidently just for the fun of it. In Bethlehem a lieutenant told me that he would have had his men shoot me in the street during a demonstration that I happened to get caught in, but that he had not because he thought I might not be a Palestinian and that if I were not the incident would have caused him some trouble. I have seen a lot of things like that. One might say that in war, s–t happens. That is true, but such behavior is indicative of an army that is not well disciplined and not a completely reliably instrument of state policy. In my travels in the west Bank in March of 2008, it was noticeable that the behavior towards Palestinian civilians of IDF troops at roadblocks was reminiscent of that of any group of post-adolescents given guns and allowed to bully the helpless in order to look tough for each other. I think the IDF would be well advised to grow some real sergeants.

  20. morris says:
    January 21, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    I got a post hacked today
    had to replace it, it must have been good!

    Behind the scenes, Israel lost America in the middle of Gaza

    http://morris108.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/behind-the-scenes-israel-lost-america-in-the-middle-of-gaza/

  21. Richard Witty says:
    January 21, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    The comments got jumbled out of sequence.

  22. anon says:
    January 21, 2009 at 7:01 pm

    Phil, there was some controversy over the Kapa photo of the Spanish Civil War, it may have indeed been choreographed.

    Irony hey, Kapa was jewish too.

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