From Phil Weiss: Last night I posted a comment by my new friend Mohammad on Gaza in which he called it "genocide." I felt somewhat uncomfortable with the word, but I am trying to get this blog open to Muslim/Arab voices, people I have little familiarity with, and that means allowing people to say what they think.
One of my character flaws/advantages is that I get crushes on other people and trust them. Some times this leads to insight. The reasons I have been making room for Mohammad here are that at 41, he has an open heart, rich experience and analytic capacity. He served in the Iranian army during the Iran-Iraq war. He is now a grad student in Canada and an artist and gallery curator.
This morning I sent Mohammad a note challenging him about "genocide." Why did you use that word? How does what has happened in Gaza compare to all the blood Muslims have drenched the sands of the Middle East with? What about what you guys did in the Iran-Iraq war? Here's his response, dashed off in a few minutes before he ran to class:
I am like you interested in introspective
discourse rather than propaganda. I think the whole 60 year process has
been a genocide. But you are right, this 22 day war in isolation and
looked at on its own does not qualify as genocide. Now having said
that, we should not allow semantics to take away from the depth of the
tragedy called the Gaza
war. When IDF soldiers gather 100 members of an extended family and
shove them in a building and "bulldoze" the building over their head
killing most of them, what should we call that?
About the Iran Iraq war,
as someone who was there for 2 years and saw things with my own eyes, I
testify to the humanity of the Iranian side. Saddam, a secular military
dictator surely will qualify as someone 100 times worse than IDF. My
cousin (from my father's side) who joined the Islamic resistance to the
Iranian invasion on the first day of Iran Iraq war was captured and apparently (eye
witness) died under torture in POW camps. Saddam would separate the
captives based on being from the conscripted army or volunteer force. If they found out you are from the volunteer force, you would be treated like Nazi Germany treated the French or Jewish resistance forces. The conscripted army was treated based on some form of Geneva Convention POW rules.
I don't wanna sound pro Iran,
but Iran fought that war mostly by being mean to their own side,
organizing young volunteers to walk over minefields to open up a front,
allowing 14 year olds to join the volunteer Islamic militia (called
Basij). We would cringe at the idea that these fuckers are taking
thousands of young people to a war in which most of them would never
come back. But our treatment of Iraqis wasn't as bad as you may have heard.
Fighting
the anti Iran propaganda needs another whole person. I have decided
that helping Palestine is more important than fighting the unfair
propaganda about Iran, its revolution and its regime. If Palestine
wasn't such an urgent call, I would totally dedicate my life to
rewriting the history of the Iranian revolution.
Please
edit the word genocide out of my text if this is creating tension or
doubt about your objectives–even though I may think in quality what Israel did in Gaza (first siege, then total war) may qualify as such. Another thing to remember is pro Israeli guys love the language game. The strategy is to exhaust us in a game about words. I would like to know what do you think.
respect and peace, Mo
Yeah, genocide isn't the right word if it means literally killing. But Israel's strategic goal is to kill the Palestinians as a people with national claims, and smashing Gaza's nascent institutions and infrastructure is part of that. If the Israelis could force the emigration of every Palestinian with a university degree, or perform the equivalent of what Stalin did in the Katyn Forest, they wouldn't hesitate.
The Holocaust was for the most part both the result of legitimate fear of the Soviet Union perceived (not unreasonably according to Yale Jewish studies Professor Benjamin Harshav) as an expression of Judeobolshevism and also a consequence of a desire for collective revenge on the part of victims of attempted communist coups in German and Hungary as well as of genocidal (often Jewish Bolshevik planned and organized) Soviet policies.
Poles had strong memories of the Jewish Bolshevik commanded Soviet army that attempted to overrun Poland and that was defeated by Pilsudski in the battled called the Miracle of Warsaw.
The Holoexaleipsis of which the Nakba is only a part is much more correctly described as the archetypal genocide.
Holocaust and Ashkenazi Genocidalism
Summary: Holocaust and Ethnic Ashkenazi Genocidalism
"To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history; but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist."
Who shall remain nameless, but you know who you are.
Like the Communists and all passive-aggressive political movements, the Zionists couch their slow genocide in a lot of obfuscatory rhetoric and condemnatory “human rights” rationales. They are only pursuing “security,” the Jewish people have a right to “self-determination,” and “dignity,” the Arabs and Muslims are “intolerant” and “fanatical.”
But as it turns out, the Zionists (and Leftist) are even more black-hearted than those they are attempting to displace, only more clever at covering up their malice and hatred behind layers and layers of spin, propaganda, and self-righteous finger pointing.
I wonder of the harsh Gaza operation wasn't designed to make the slow strangulation of the West Bank, which will be escalated in the coming months, mild by comparison. "Oh benevolent Israelis, thank you for not doing to us what you did to the Gazans," they hope the hope the West Bank Palestinians will say — from Jordan.
Obama's inauguration speech condemned tribal thinking. That gives me hope–for now.
BTW, former MK Shulamit Aloni called Israeli actions in the OT retzah am itti in Haaretz back when I was still working on EU contracts there (to wit, before December 2002).
Retzah am itti is slow genocide in English.
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
I have been giving some thought recently to this question, and I do not see how Israeli actions can be construed as genocide, even from the point-of-view of attempting to destroy national identity. I realize that I am grossly generalizing, however I observe a penchant for exaggeration by some Arabs when it comes to the I/P conflict, at least historically. I invite Arab readers, or others with more insight than I have, to correct or provide more context.
Exaggeration is counterproductive when trying to bring truth about the I/P conflict to Americans. We have been culturally imprinted with the notion of genocide as physical extermination by the efforts of American Jews to spread awareness of the Holocaust. These efforts have been rigorously correct, with no exaggeration or falsehood, and are the metric against which many Americans, consciously or unconsciously, measure claims of genocide by others. Careless use of language only undermines acceptance of the reality of the crimes that the Israeli government is committing: crimes against peace, crimes against humanity, and war crimes. See also the United Nations Charter and the Nuremberg Principles.
Israel's practices toward the population in Palestine did not begin with the recent devastating assault on Gaza, and their aim is abundantly clear. In his patient attempts to communicate about something which staggers our minds, I think Phil's kind friend shows a hugeness of spirit which those who quibble about these words would do well to emulate.
Obama today, on the USA at this moment in history, the assimilationist template:
"We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth; and because we have tasted the bitter swill of civil war and segregation, and emerged from that dark chapter stronger and more united, we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; that as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself; and that America must play its role in ushering in a new era of peace."
Not to worry, Richard Witty will quibble–he is the light to the world.
You say that's a really small light? I agree.
@Colin Murray,
The Israeli government has not only met “any” of the conditions on the UN Article Two list, it has met ALL of them.
The Israeli government and its Jewish Zionist appendages have engaged in a systematic effort to quite literally wipe the Palestinians off the map for decades — right down to regularly denying there is even any such people as “the Palestinians.” They’re all Arabs, say the Jewish Zionist propagandists — in order to get out from accountability from the conditions of the very list you cite.
Re-read your list, and please explain which conditions the Zionists are NOT guilty of.
The Zionists and their legions of propagandized useful idiots seem to believe that the Holocaust gives all descendants of organized Jewry a free ticket to pillage and murder into perpetuity.
It's akin to the serial killer descendant of a murder victim arguing his latest murder is a consequence of the ill treatment visited upon his long gone ancestor. It's patently absurd, and would be completely dismissed on its face if not for Jewish Zionists the world over arguing that, in Israel's case, such a pleading is totally rational, meritorious, and even essential. And now, after decades of this, they've got plenty of indoctrinated gentile idiots carrying their water, from Christian Zionists right on through to bleeding heart liberals.
There is nothing resembling genocide of the Palestinians as a whole, nor of Gazan Palestinians.
As another poster commented in another thread, there have been MUCH WORSE actions taken against Palestinians by Lebanese, Syrian, and Jordanian governments, than anything that Israel has done.
It doesn't make intentional violence against civilians excusable, by any.
It does speak to the question of exageration and condemnation.
Its not spin to see clearly, completely, from more than a single perspective.
If you convince yourselves that exagerated language is effective at changing decisions or attitudes, then you will be convincing yourselves to be INNEFFECTIVE.
The word genocide has a precise international definition which includes "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part"
Israel's treatment of Palestinians which is intent on making life unbearable and eventually eradicating them as a people– fits that definition. What Moslems have done in the past has no bearing on the question.
And the pro-Israeli crowd makes no bones about what they're doing.Dershowitz, in his book, defends "mass transfer" (aka ethnic cleansing) of Palestinians as a form of "equal opportunity" for Jews, and Benny Morris refers to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians as simple a case of "breaking a few eggs".
Remember:
"There are no such things as Palestinians"
Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir
The Guardian's on a roll, folks. Another great piece here:
link to guardian.co.uk
citizen, the reference to "tribalism" made my ears perk up too. It's not a very common term in American popular discourse, and I suspect it was introduced intentionally.
It'd be interesting to hear if Phil's well-tuned ears detected any special significance in its use.
thank you everyone. Whats important is reall positive break from the past realities of Palestinians. What is secondary is us and our emotional investent in absolute truth and Justice. Our language should in no way make Philip's readers defend Israel. What we need to all agree is that the actions of Israel in Gaza in the latest war are indefensible.
Is the reference to "tribalism" meant to be the beginning of an American discussion of Zionism?
I doubt it, but we can hope.
Obama's speech was hypocritical and ridiculous in so many ways I don't even know where to start from.
So cliche, so shallow, so chauvinistic… so stupid… and so arrogant.
And what was all this emphasis throughout the inauguration ceremony on "peaceful transition" ?? Like no other country in the world has that? Like the U.S is unique in that respect??? Americans are so full of it. And Obama is a typical American in that respect (and in many other ways as well). And spare us all the talk about leading. America is no longer in any position to lead, nor will it ever be in the position to lead again. That is good news for the world. Americans must take a lesson or two in humility — no, not the type that Obama claims to represent!! REAL humility, as opposed to the semblance thereof.
Witty understands the Jewish Zionists have an excellent grift going on, an incredible MLM Ponzi scheme built upon hypnosis, propaganda, emotional blackmail and a lot of dead innocents, and he doesn't want it to slip away. He apparently views it as an heirloom to be handed down to future generations of Jews. Some kind of fraudulent welfare entitlement that can be cashiered indefinitely so long as the band of grifters maintain their stories.
It's never a pretty site when charlatans exploit faith, religion and good will for material and monetary gain, but Zionism is what it is, and now the murderous scheme is finally coming to an end. Well, it was great while it lasted. You all had a good run, but now it's time to pay the piper.
Buck up, Witty. There’s always another game coming down the pike.
I worked off and on for 10 years in the OT.
As far as I am concerned, the Zionists have been in violation of article II a-d since 1947, and I can trace "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, [the Palestinian] national, ethnical, racial or religious group" all the way back to 1881 in mainstream Zionist literature.
In fact, Zionist literature makes proof of intent far clearer in the Zionist than in the German Nazi case.
In addition Rafael Lemkin explicitly stated that he considered the treatment of Ostdeutsch populations after WW2 to have been genocide. By that standard Zionist commission of genocide is undeniable.
In other words, if Zionist treatment of Palestinians is not counted as genocide, the Convention is meaningless.
This Guardian article in combination with the ongoing effort of groups shilling for US Israel advocates to prevent humanitarian aid from reaching Gaza (see Ethnic Ashkenazim Against Zionist Israel: Concerns raised about potentially fraudulent "Citizens Group" in Boston) suggests a well thought out and already laid out plan to create chaos and death in Gaza especially because my business associates tell me that no money will be released for Gaza reconstruction until Hamas is eliminated.
It is pure Catch-22 because even if Hamas were to eliminate itself (and I doubt it is), Hamas is the only organization that has proven capable of managing Gaza especially in disastrous situations like the aftermath of Israel's murderous aggression.
"As another poster commented in another thread, there have been MUCH WORSE actions taken against Palestinians by Lebanese, Syrian, and Jordanian governments, than anything that Israel has done."
This is simply a lie. Witty, give it up. You want people to be fair and condemn Arab atrocities–I agree. But you can't seem to stop your reflexive apologies for Israeli crimes.
But Witty won't give it up. Which is odd, because you'd think he'd have a more receptive audience for his bullshit elsewhere.
I'm a truth-teller.
I am reposting my comments about genocide:
(…) I am gripped by the sense of urgency, that the calm tone of your post does not possess.
I am convinced that the way society moves from disdain towards its minorities or its neighbours to the actual policies of genocide is a gradual progress that can be quantified and studied.
It is not unlike the degeneration of the relationship into the domestic violence and abuse, which tends to get worse if unchecked.
Israel has already crossed the line where it is acceptable for its voters to kill and starve Arabs. This is not an outlier as Lebanon 2006 was followed by Gaza 2008.
We are now in the territory where it is not a question of IF and WHEN to kill Arabs. It is a question of HOW MANY.
There are now hundreds of discussions taking place in the Israeli homes where the question of HOW is being discussed.
I do not see this as any different then the discussions taking place in Ottoman Empire in 1914 about "Armenian Question"or Rwana in 1993 about "Tutsi Problem" or Russia in 1918 about "Don Cossacks Question".
There is a well defined psychological phenomenon of denial in the population that is responsible for genocide that does not allow it to see the mass murder, acknowledge mass murder and act against mass murder leading straight to the negation of mass murder having take place.
I believe that Israel is in total denial of its own precarious position as a society very close to the point of starting a genocide.
Mohammad's comments are fascinating, and I hope he will be a regular contributor here.
"Genocide" (like "hate," "anti-semitism" and "racism") is one of those words I avoid using because its meaning has become so nebulous.
If you are speaking of "destruction of a people," then yes, Zionists have been very explicit about their goal of destorying the Palistinians as a people. This goal does not require physical extermination. The Zionists's favored techniques have been expulsion, imprisonment in ghettos, and the systematic destruction of any viable Palistinian leadership.
So why is the Arab population of Israel growing Israel is committing genocide.
Look at Rwanda etc. Should be pretty easy with todays technology for Israel to kill a million Arabs in a week.
In modern warfare 1300 dead in 3 weeks is extremely low. If Israel were really targetting civilian the dead would be 130,000 not 1300
Zionist racists like Michael are so tiresome.
The Jewish population of German controlled territories grew between 1933-1941.
By Michael's boring racist Jewish Zionist logic the German Nazi government was not engaged in ethnic cleansing.
Of course someone with half a brain might look at the distribution of Jewish or Arab population.
What was the logic of the ADL?
Genocide denial is genocide incitement. Therefore, Ahmedinejad commits crimes against humanity.
Doesn't it sound like great logic to use to justify the arrest of apologists like Michael once Americans wake up to how they have been conned and ripped off by Jewish Zionists?
The "Arab" population of Israel is "growing" because the Israelis can't figure out a way to stop it but these "Arabs" are subject to endless discrimination and there is constant talk about ethnically cleansing them too. Israel tolerates them as a token existence for menial labour as long as they don't challenge the ethnic supremacy of Jews in Israeli law and government, and if given half a chance, Israel would wipe them out too. Wasn't it Lord Curzon who said that the Zionists planned on turning the native Palestinians into "hewers of wood and fetchers of water"??
Incidentally, the "arabs in Israe" are PALESTINIANS. Israeli rhetoric can't refer to them by that name since Palestinians aren't supposed to exist, so they use the generic "Arab" instead.