AC writes:
Take a look at this critique of Waltz with Bashir by Gideon Levy in Haaretz. Look at his diction -- bloodthirsty soldiers, shelling women and children, propaganda, fraud and deceit, the lines about the Holocaust
and victims -- and unrelentingly scolding tone.
Now tell me: if such a
piece a were written and seen by someone in the U.S., or anywhere
outside of Israel
in the "west", for that matter, and even if it was seen by a critic of
Israel, or even an anti-Zionist, would they not be taken aback by it in
the slightest way, and be ever so hesitant about endorsing or
publishing it for its "harsh" or "carping" or "obsessive" or "bitter"
or "acrid", and therefore possibly antisemitic, nature? Would they not
contemplate editing it for a gentler choice of words, especially
regarding the Holocaust and victims? It's not inconceivable that this
would be the case, is it? But not in Israel, and not for Gideon Levy.
As for the movie itself, the piece says it all.
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We shoot, we cry.
We enable proxies to shoot too.
The Shoah is the only shoe the world's inhabitants need wear.
Nice animation.
Oscar comes.
What a lame critique of a movie. I haven't seen the film yet.
My impression of Gideon Levy's "review" and Phil's "As for the movie itself, the piece says it all.", is that you seek to condemn artistic expression, to CENSOR it.
FEW anti-war films were set in the current. Knowledge of the current is at best speculative. The dominant accurate conclusion is "I don't know".
Anti-war films witness. From what I've heard of Waltz with Bashir, it DOES tell a story, an emotional, a repentant one.
Repent for your own sins already. The pot shots are distracting.
Gilad Atzmon – Sabra, Shatila and Collective Amnesia | Palestine Think Tank
@ witty
"What a lame critique of a movie. I haven't seen the film yet."
LOL. How do you know its a lame critique of the movie since you have not seen the movie?
Brevity is not ipso facto lame. It has been cutting edge.
So, support your statement, witty.
"To say that Palestinians are absent in Waltz with Bashir, to say that it is a film that deals not with Palestinians but with Israelis who served in Lebanon, only barely begins to describe the violence that this film commits against Palestinians. There is nothing interesting or new in the depiction of Palestinians — they have no names, they don't speak, they are anonymous. But they are not simply faceless victims. Instead, the victims in the story that Waltz with Bashir tells are Israeli soldiers. Their anguish, their questioning, their confusion, their pain — it is this that is intended to pull us."
We shoot, we cry, we shoot some more, we cry some more, we shoot even more, we cry even more. And that makes us virtuous even as we shoot and kill and maim and destroy.
And we make sure to let the world know on no uncertain terms that WE are the true victims of this piece, not the nameless, faceless tens of thousands whom we keep shooting and shooting and shooting.
And we blame our victims for victimizing us by forcing us to victimize them.
"We can forgive the Arabs for kill our children, but we can't forgive them for force us to kill theirs." Golda Meir
What a bunch of sociopathic narcissists.
What a sick scam!
I saw the movie, Witty, and while I'd be a bit less harsh than Levy, he's making a legitimate point. And why is it that you will leap to the defense of a Dershowitz, but you condemn Levy's movie review when you haven't even seen the film yourself? Does that make any sense? I know you mean well, but you really need to take the blinders off.
The biggest problem with the movie is that it goes into gruesome realistic detail about what the Christian Phalangists did–it becomes a virtual documentary at that point, even, as Levy says, putting in actual footage of Palestinian women screaming over their dead. But when it shows Israeli violence it's aesthetic, beautiful, abstract, but ultimately cartoonish. The sequence showing Israel's bombing is literally little more than a joke. The film does show Israeli soldiers killing an Arab family in a car, but it's an accident. Tragedy of war. I don't doubt such things happened by accident, but are we to believe that's the worst things Israeli soldiers did? Then in another scene Israeli soldiers shoot an Arab boy, but in that case it's justifiable, because he was shooting RPG's at them. Again, presumably such things happened, but is that the worst Israeli soldiers did? There's also a scene of Israeli soldiers just driving along, firing bullets in all directions at random, but it's hard to know if this scene was meant literally (wouldn't they run out of bullets fairly soon?) and there are no consequences shown.
Where is the realistic depiction of Arab families blown up by the Israeli bombing of Beirut and other places? Nowhere. The film only depicts Israeli soldiers as victims–I don't necessarily object to this, as some of them no doubt were just 19 year old kids placed in a horrible situation, but is that the full story? And it's borderline dishonest of the film when it is only explicit about brutality committed by the Christian Lebanese.
You doubt that such things actually happen? Because of your personal experience in killing people?
Chris, your reading comprehension is ZERO. where in all his comment did witty's critic say he doubted such things happened. He doubted that such things were the only thing that happened. Go get a GED or something useful.
Chris, as ahmed and any other person capable of reading would have noticed, I said exactly the opposite of what you think I said.
That's it, Ahmed? That's all you could find to criticize?
Shirin | February 21, 2009 at 01:54 PM Agreed.
ahmed.
You gave me a chuckle. Go get a GED or something useful. Aint it the truth? He's profoundly stupid, and incapable of basic logic.
I criticize the tone in Levy's "criticism". I consider it LAME to contest the politics in nearly any artist's presentation, if sincere.
What kind of censorial world does Phil or Levy propose if an artist's subjective interpretation is subject to such condemnation.
THEY should get off their own asses and write, direct, fund, cast, film, edit, distribute, promote, their own work.
Phil has a book that has been suggested to him might make a good film, and he's been waiting what 10 years for a contract even?
It takes that long.
Its trivial on Levy's part.
My critic, and (Levy),
I hope that the CHOICE of presentation of experience in the film, is itself a statement of the author's consciousness.
That is what he is describing.
Do you get offended when films about politics are cast through western eyes? "The Last King of Scotland" for example. or "A Dry White Season" (a great anti-apartheid film, by a great anti-apartheid author, Andre Brinke).
I do, yet, at the same time recognize that perspective is part of the art, and polemic is usually NOT ART, for its absence of perspective.
He's profoundly stupid, and incapable of basic logic.
Posted by: MRW. | February 21, 2009 at 03:57 PM
I would take this as truth that Phil's unemployment, as well as his poor social skills, has led him to heavy drinking. Additionally, it rather seems that Phil has decided he can't even take on a lightweight such as myself.
My comment at February 21, 2009 at 03:57 PM was about Berel, who is so unschooled he can't handle basic HTML. So much for Jewish smarts.
Witty–
As I said, I would be less harsh than Levy in criticizing the film. I had mixed feelings about it–it was good in many ways and maybe it was an honest depiction of how he and his friends experienced the war. Still, they didn't seem to see many Arab civilian casualties–there was the shooting up of the car and the boy that was shooting at them (who they shot) and other than that, one soldier was haunted by the suffering of some racehorses and another by the dogs he shot. I'm an animal lover myself, but you'd think that in a war where there were maybe 10-20,000 civilian dead and tens of thousands wounded, there'd be more notice of human suffering (aside from what the Phalangists caused).
And again, Witty, my other point was that you leap to defend Dershowitz's opinion on the grounds that you can probably express better than I can remember, but then Levy is just giving his opinion of the flaws of this film–why isn't there value in that?
he can't handle basic HTML. So much for Jewish smarts.
Posted by: MRW. | February 21, 2009 at 07:43 PM
And there we all went thinking that Weiss was a smart Jew, when all he is is a small time failure. Can't even handle the html on his own site.
I definitely believe that Dershowitz is partially accurate in his comments, and that its up to thinking persons to distinguish truth from impression from speculation from lie.
To fail to undertake that is intellectually lazy.
You gave me a chuckle. Go get a GED or something useful. Aint it the truth? He's profoundly stupid, and incapable of basic logic.
—–
But isn't it chris berel, Esq.? What kind of law can he practice without even a GED? Next you'll be telling me he makes up a ton of other shit too. Does that make him a "shanda fur die goyim"?
I remember seeing on cable the movie "Kippur" on the 1973 Yom Kipper War and while moderately interesting, the Arab characters were cardboard cut-outs; inconsequential in every way.
The "shoot and cry" comments made me think of this movie.
I see one of Phil's smarter friends, Lance, has joined in. No wonder Phil can't get a job.
chris berel, as usual attacks the messenger, not the message. Tell us, dear chris berel, why you think
LanceThruster's opinion of the movie Kippur is not insightful. Show how the Arab characters therein
are more than card board cuts out as compared to the other characters.
I saw the movie. I didn't see any Syrian soldiers or vehicles at all. The only enemies presented were the confusion, disorder, low moral and lack of information and command within parts of the Israeli army. And the occasional stray bullet or missile.
But Witty, you defend Dershowitz, but jump all over Levy. Why? There's obviously a lot of truth in what Levy says–the reason Waltzing with Bashir is getting so much favorable comment is precisely because it doesn't condemn the Israelis very harshly. Maybe it does reflect the personal experience of the filmmakers, but it also lets Israel off the hook–the vast majority of Lebanese civilian casualties in the 1982 war were inflicted by Israel, and not by their Christian Lebanese allies. Possibly many Americans watching the movie won't know that going in, and the movie certainly doesn't tell them. You can say it's not the job of the filmmakers–fine. But I think it is the job of someone commenting on the film to point this out and yet you object.
Alice – I think the only Arabs were dead or invisible (wasn't there some in the trench scene towards the end?) That was my point; that the other side wasn't even dealt with except as some nebulous opposition to the noble Israelis. If my memory does not serve me well and they weren't shown at all in the movie, I thank you for the correction.
Kurt Vonnegut once said he got upset at the fact that secondary characters could be brutalized and killed in any fashion just to move the plot along. I think it scared him that in real life, so many people are relegated to those "secondary" roles.
I think the Israelis and Zionists see the whole world as secondary characters, constantly in the way of getting what they want.
berel, your ceaseless attempts at put-downs are par for the course for those unable to craft a coherent argument on anything. As another has pointed out, you are far too dense to be much of a Hasbara parrot (though how smart are Hasbara parrots, really?), but you are clearly a wanna-be sayan; ready to do your part for the motherland?/fatherland? except actually moving there and killing some 'Rabs yourself to keep the Jewish state Jewish.
That's some great dedication there, berel.
Heckuva job!
The reason Syrian soldiers do not figure in Kippur is because the Gittai character's unit is a helicopter medevac unit, and the war is seen from their p.o.v., thus they are always evacuating wounded AFTER contact is broken or on the fringes of contact with the enemy, where only the stray shell, missile, or bullet crops up. The trench in the scene where they are reunited with the war-mad commander from Metullah is actually filled with dead ISRAELI soldiers. If Gittai wanted propaganda points, he would have depicted them as some Israeli POWs were actually found on Mt. Hermon, blindfolded with hands bound and a bullet in the back of the head.
Syrian infantry did not figure in the war except in the early and late going, and 1973 on the Golan is considered a prime example of a type of vehicle-dominated war whose day was at its zenith in '67, and already non-feasible in the Sinai, and even more passe today.
Eurosabra – Your description of the film seems accurate (though I thought there were also Arab dead in the trenches from hand to hand combat – it's been awhile), I only remember thinking that from the film's point of view, the only people that counted were Israelis (even if just the focus of the story being told).
As for your legitimate outrage over prisoner executions, you act as if that is only a one-sided occurance. I wonder if Israel will ever do films on its war crimes. I'd love to see one about the murder of US sailors on the USS LIberty to set straight the many lies told by a number of parties over the years.
From WRMEA.com: As Evidence Mounts, Toll of Israeli Prisoner of War Massacres Grows
Former soldiers' recollections of the massacres they committed gained momentum, and soon a host of war crimes previously known only to the participants came to light in the mainstream Israeli press. Israelis admitted that in the 1967 Six-Day War, the IDF executed Palestinian POWs who were fighting in the Egyptian army, a thousand unresisting Egyptians, and dozens of unarmed Palestinian refugees.
Correct LanceThruster. The Israeli massacre of Egyptian POWs is the most probable immediate reason why the Israeli jets intentionally attacked the USS Liberty, an intelligence ship easily recognized by its form and flag. Israel also figured so long as they
sunk it, they could blame that loss on Arabs, killing two goyische kopfs as it were, with one stone. Too bad the ship was not sunk, and all sailors murdered both in the water and on deck. Johnson is forever a traitor, as is the US Navy administration, especially McCain's Father. This is the single instance in USA naval history where our government never got to the bottom of it, but instead, covered it up. Things have gone downhill ever since in terms of an alleged USA regime acting in behalf USA interests.
Citizen – That's the way I heard it. The Liberty could implicate the IDF in the murder of teh Egyptian prisoners, and the total destruction of the Liberty would work as a false-flag attack and draw the US into the war against Egypt.
Liberty was a drinking ship and an embarrassment to the Navy, and the USN was happy to sweep an unfortunate accident under the carpet.
Right, Eurosabra, keep drinking your vodka. Anyone else who wants to know the truth just go the ship's survivors web site and learn–from actual US patriots who were there. See if you hear about a "drinking ship" and "unfortunate accident." You will see it was a clear case of the USA interest not being the same as Israel's. That's why it was covered up so quickly by the zionists in our land and their whore goy congressmen and their all cowboy-hat president.