Shaul Magid is an esteemed professor of Jewish studies at Indiana University. The latest Forward contains his review of David Myers's book, Between Arab and Jew: The Lost Voice of Simon Rawidowicz, which ends with the paragraph below. Magid is active in Brit Tzedek.
Jack Ross writers: That last paragraph is all very well and good, but the full article reveals the larger context. It states that Rawidowicz was a "religious Zionist" critic of the binationalists Buber and Magnes and argued for a "role" for the diaspora but for a Zionist revolution within it. In other words, it seems that Rawidowicz was the earliest forebear of the Breira/contemporary Reform ideology.When we have in our affluent and tolerant Diaspora (where Jews are arguably treated better than at any time in historical memory) an eminent scholar from Harvard like Ruth Wisse, who writes in her book “Jews and Power” that the problem with Israel and the Jews today is that they are not militant enough, and when Martin Peretz, editor of The New Republic, proclaims that the message of Israel’s 2009 attacks in Gaza is “Don’t f–k with the Jews!” we need to seriously rethink where we have come as a people. And when Avigdor Lieberman and his quasi-fascist Yisrael Beiteinu party wins 15 seats in the Knesset and the centrist parties reject even symbolic repatriation and ignore the issue of civil rights in Israel, we should wonder if Rawidowicz’s fears in 1951 have come to pass. Survival is a wonderful thing, but selling one’s soul is a tragedy. We owe David Myers a debt of gratitude for giving us Simon Rawidowicz’s lost voice: a voice of reason, of tradition, of morality, especially at a time when we need to be brought back to our collective senses.
Since I am a Jew, I figure my survival is ultimately in the hands of God. I have to leave that up to Him. As for me, I'll be happy if I feel worthy of surviving.
That above all, is what was, at the time, and even more so now, so repellent about Zionism; the presumption, the assumption that we can, as Jews, do more for ourselves than God can, or is willing to do.
Religiously, not a fun position to be in. But people have been trying for ever to make Judaism a winning proposition, it's only human nature. What makes it so bad is that since 1967, we have raised an entire generation which believes that the Jewish religion is a religion of victory, and one in which God obeys us.
From that, we'll get nothing but trouble.
I guess there is a distinction here. Jews must survive in this world at all costs. Literally at all costs (to rebel jews and to goys, who don't have a say since they are not made immortal by God via continued generations on earth). The NAZIs always distinguished between other religions and Judaism as an "earth bound" religion, that is, one that essentially is not harnessed to pie in the sky, but pie on earth. Look around. How can anyone doubt this? Look at all of human history. Who ever had a better understanding of this zero-sum game than Hitler? Start at the top–Torah: The world divided into jews and non-jews. By G-D's fiat. Time to go beyond a God who would discriminate between peoples on the earth, whether interpreted as a horrible but dutiful burden, or an uplifting wing.
Harvard like Ruth Wisse, who writes in her book “Jews and Power” that the problem with Israel and the Jews today is that they are not militant enough,
The book she wrote, no doubt, while sitting in her study in the USA.
But at any rate, if we Jews are gonna be "more militant", the first thing we need to do, the place to start, is by getting organised! We need to know what our resources are! The only place to start is by registering all Jews, and noting the percentage of "Jewish Blood" in each registrant. From there we can go on to the question of what special distinguishing clothes or headgear would be appropriate. Maybe even a tattoo? Yes sir, militancy has been the saving of the Jews all through history, and militancy, the don't-fuck-with-us militancy which any peoples consisting of almost 14million people whose birthrate and attrition through leaving is making their numbers proudly shrink.
But we have to start by getting organised!
http://www.takimag.com/blogs/article/fear_of_the_smear
Israel
Fear of the Smear
Posted by Taki Theodoracopulos on March 12, 2009
I’ve said it before and will say it again: Fear of the smear is the Israeli lobby’s chief weapon. Here’s Charles Freeman Jr’s., Obama’s choice for a major intelligence post, reasons for dropping out: “The tactics of the Israel Lobby plumb the depths of dishonor and indecency and include character assassination, selective misquotation, the willful distortion of the record, the fabrication of falsehoods, and an utter disregard for the truth.”
Yes, but what else is new? Mr Freeman, as a seasoned diplomat, should know that no one who does not genuflect to Israel will be safe from the smear. As everyone knows, the insidious manner in which Israel has manipulated the domestic and foreign policy of the U.S. to produce support for its policies constitutes nothing less than direct interference in the government of a sovereign state.
As everyone knows, but is much too scared to publicly admit it in this day and age of nuclear nonproliferation, the undeclared nuclear arsenal of Israel stands as perhaps the most egregious example of how an Israel-only standard destabilizes the Middle East. It is the Israeli nuclear weapons program that is the core of instability for this very volatile region.
Yet only recently, a buffoon like the mustachioed John Bolton—who knows which side his bagel is buttered on—argued in the Wall Street Journal that any outreach to Iran—except landing the Marines—was useless. Bolton, like other sofa Samurais, the Kristols, Podhoretzes, Perles, Frums and Krauthammers—all Israeli Firsters—wants more young Americans to fight abroad in order to make Israel safe to kill unarmed Palestinian women and children. Bolton is a buffoon and a protégé of that other great warrior Dick Cheney, probably the greatest physical coward ever to slime the seat of the vice president.
Still, the only reason Israel’s economy exists is because of American aid. Yet Israel has grown so accustomed to American largesse, it has for a long time felt free to interfere in America’s domestic agenda and ruin American lives the moment they don’t play ball. The fact that a son of an Irgun terrorist is Barack Obama’s chief-of-staff is proof enough that from the president down, no one’s safe. The only way to stop this is to call off the free ride. The grip Israel has on Uncle Sam’s throat has finally become a stranglehold. The rest of the world knows this, but somehow the average American remains brainwashed about that tiny brave country resisting Arab hordes.
Yeah, and pigs do fly. The Lobby is now busy trying to keep Iran in the hot seat. It managed to get two idiots to commit to a catastrophic war in Iraq. Ditto in Afghanistan. Will Iran be the third success for Israel’s Lobby?
"Don't fuck with the Jews," say the chicken hawks of Jewish America & their whore goy partners. Every average American knows deep in the heart this is BS, and that they are paying for it both financially and with their young troops. One day these chickens will come home to roost, as they always have throughout history. Look at the USA's economic and foreign stance today; look at how the world views it. How long will it be before this violently changes–merely to repeat the historical process? We are already paying, we will pay more–then the time will come which will make later generations study why this was so, to no avail.
Calls for investigation into Gaza attacks
Israel’s war crimes
Israel blamed its earlier wars on the threat to its security, even that against Lebanon in 1982. However, its assault on Gaza was not justified and there are international calls for an investigation. But is there the political will to make Israel account for its war crimes?
Easy answer Oscar: No. (Except from Costa Rica.)
Why is there no political will? Because no actual war crimes were committed. There was a misdomeaner or two, but that was about it.
All governments recognize israel's right to kick the shit out of Hamas. They just can't say so for fear of losing Arab oil.
For a nation who sees that "all governments recognise" their "right" to commit massacres, they sure do cower in fear when traveling overseas because they don't want to be arrested.
@ Mooser: "What makes it so bad is that since 1967, we have raised an entire generation which believes that the Jewish religion is a religion of victory, and one in which God obeys us."
I was thinking about this today: the Torah/Old Testament, in my opinion, should (among other things) be interpreted as a series of chastening morality tales…about obedience to God, about the dangers of hubris, about the importance of humility and respect, about the inability to fool God, about the fate of those who blatantly disobey moral and ethical strictures, etc. Do you think it was in 1967 that Jews started interpreting their religion as a morality tale in racial triumphalism? It seems to me totally impossible to square the Torah's morality tales with the kind of arrogant, supremacist, greedy and selfish behavior exhibited by a significant percentage (majority?) of Jews today, particularly many American Jews, but also racist Israeli ones.
Mooser, you write "From that, we'll get nothing but trouble." Do you believe certain arrogant Jews are headed for yet another chastening wrath? If it came, would it be deserved?
How does Taki get away with saying the truth out loud like this? I'm surprised the New Republic doesn't send some Israeli-trained intern over to his house some night to permanently delete his password.
Wonderful turn of phrase by Taki–"a buffoon like the mustachioed John Bolton—who knows which side his bagel is buttered on?"
There's no right to excessive force (beyond "misdemeanors").
There is a right, more than a right, a respect for effective defense against terror.
One big disappointment for the world at large, is the frustration of how to turn Hamas, how to convince them to accept rather than aggress.
Their worldview is not accurately described as national resistance. If it were, then there would be a path to negotiate.
Torah describes the conditions by which Jews will be rewarded, and/or punished. "IF you keep my commandments, I will give you the rain in its time.."
It is a self-reflective, self-critical approach.
Koran includes self-reflection, but also includes expansion and continuity of the waqf (broken by the presence of non-Islamic link in the long geographic chain). It includes elements that alternates between contempt and respect for Jews and Jewish life.
Islam similarly has very divisive definitions of us/them.
Its an opportunistic and frankly false description of Judaism to regard privilege as descriptive.
If all the jews were like Chris Berel, I would probably be an anti-Semite. He/she has all the worst traits known to the human race: hateful, smug, shallow and ignorant.
@Ed:
I was thinking about this today: the Torah/Old Testament, in my opinion, should (among other things) be interpreted as a series of chastening morality tales…about obedience to God, about the dangers of hubris, about the importance of humility and respect, about the inability to fool God, about the fate of those who blatantly disobey moral and ethical strictures, etc. Do you think it was in 1967 that Jews started interpreting their religion as a morality tale in racial triumphalism? It seems to me totally impossible to square the Torah's morality tales with the kind of arrogant, supremacist, greedy and selfish behavior exhibited by a significant percentage (majority?) of Jews today, particularly many American Jews, but also racist Israeli ones.
Ed, funny you bring this up, as I was just reading some of Joachim Martillo's writing, and this subject is broached in Maurice Pinay's response to one of Joachim's post. This subject is, admittedly, well over my head, but I wonder if this may in some way pacify your curiosity:
"I'm not certain that Fr. Coughlin's failure to distinguish in the area you've specified is an indication of race-based hatred of Judaic people. He would often set what he viewed as bad "atheistic Jews" against "religious Jews" whom he seemed to believe to be generally good which would suggest that race wasn't the issue. To me this also indicates a lack of understanding of the religion of Judaism on his part.
This misunderstanding is a common one among Catholics, most of whom believe Judaism to be the religion of the Old Testament with no knowledge or consideration for the rabbinic texts and traditions that Judaism is based in.
So, is it because Judaism as practiced isn't actually based solely on the Old Testament/Torah, rather is steeped in various rabbinical texts and interpretations, and the subsequent traditions they have engendered?
Stephen Walt: New Father Coughlin??
Ed: "…significant percentage (majority?) of Jews today…
Why do you think that?
I believe there are about 6 million Jews in the US. According to Jeffrey Blankfort only about 1/3 represent 'the Lobby' with all its tentacles etc… But admittedly, if true those 2 million politically motivated activists are damn well organized. They provide money and the organizational infrastructure that, I believe, is far far superior even the Democratic Party itself.
Plus, you know this, 'the Lobby' is massively active and extremely powerful in at least 4 'major' States — New York [the atm of politics], Florida, California and Pennsylvania. These guys want to vet and plant as many politicians flavorable to their cause as possible — and let's face it they've succeeded.
Glenn Greenwald about the NY AIPAC Scene
Boy! and do these guys want RESULTS.
So, that leaves about 4 Millions Jews that have probably never heard of the 'The Lobby'… Don't really have one view on Israel one way or the other, and probably aren't even interested in politics. I don't believe American Jewish Committee polls, however, Rosenberg's outfit did a poll [I believe last election] on the Jewish Community and their thoughts — I'm willing to believe his poll that the majority of the Jewish Community are not hawks — and can you really blame them wanting to go against the rabid vipers among their own Community… They are VICIOUS…
Doves Outnumber Hawks in Jewish Community
But those '2 million' you're gotta give it to them — they are damn good at what they do — some of them infiltrating peace groups and political progressive grassroot groups [e.g. the PDA -- noticing their 'changed' mission statement] — but remember they've been at this stuff for decades. Some of us political junkies are only just finding 'now' how embedded these Israel Firsters are in the political system.
Richard Witty–
Typical. You are bothered by what you perceive as criticisms of Judaism, and then you counter with a two sentence condemnation of Islam and the Koran.
And in other news regarding this thread, I don't know what to make of citizen's post. Was he citing Adolf freaking Hitler and the Nazis as authorities on Judaism? Am I reading that right? What's next? Pol Pot's helpful hints on how to win friends and influence people?
Typical. You are bothered by what you perceive as criticisms of Judaism, and then you counter with a two sentence condemnation of Islam and the Koran.
Never ceases to amaze.
we have raised an entire generation which believes that the Jewish religion is a religion of victory, and one in which God obeys us…
There's a certain style of kabbalah — and I imagine that the combination of Chabad and Rav Kook have had a lot of effect in actualising this, especially among the settlers, who are now moving from mafdal to hardal (I don't mean mustard) styles of expressing it — which stresses the tradition that every night at midnight, JHVH rises and roars with grief over the ruins of the Temple. Note grief. The point I think is that JHVH is Israel's husband. Sometimes when you watch e.g. the IDF chaplains conducting services, you rather think he is a henpecked husband.
Wisse is very nasty, very racist, and not much of a scholar.
"Do you think it was in 1967 that Jews started interpreting their religion as a morality tale in racial triumphalism?"
The founders of the Zionist movement were largely secular ethnic-nationalists, as are most Zionist Jews still today.
As for religious Jews, many learn from Tanakh (what Christians call the OT, Torah being the first five books) the noble ideals you attribute to it. I spent a couple years of my youth doing exactly that, going to non-Zionist synagogue every Saturday with my neighbors who looked after me while my father had to work. However, there is also Rabbinical teachings, which some sects of Judaism effectively take as authoritative over Tanakh. This starts all the way back with the Babylonian Talmud, and sections of that condone extreme bigotry and all sorts treachery against non-Jews.
Assuming you possess the intellect to comprehend that only a small subset of Jews adhere to such devious teachings, and hence won't be taken by the Judophobia of the author of the book I am about to recommend along with that of the website it is on, see here:
http://www.come-and-hear.com/dilling/chapt04.html
@ Dan,
I'm aware of the Talmud — probably no more or no less than most Jews. Unlike them, I'm biased against it (even as they're biased for it.) But my point is, most Jews take their lead from the more widely known and interpreted scripture — the Old Testament/Torah. As do most Christian Zionists. Now, the Old Testament has today become interpreted as some racialist manifesto — by both. I think Mooser's date of '67 might well be when this interpretation took effect.
Mooser says: "we have raised an entire generation which believes that the Jewish religion is a religion of victory, and one in which God obeys us."
That sounds like George W. Bush's Christian Zionist ideology…and certain Americans’ Middle East super-power manifest destiny delusions.
These people are high on the adrenalin of war, or want to start wars to get the adrenalin high. There's not a religious impulse or conscience in their entire bodies.
"Judeo-Christians." Laughable. More like methamphetamine junkies. Losers…and it shows.
@ Witty, I respect my holy book and at the same time using basic common sense and humanity. Can you do the same with yours?
Dan Kelly, I occasionally visit events at the Boston College Center for Center for Christian Jewish Learning. I am always amazed by Catholic misconceptions about Rabbinic Judaism and about modern Ethnic Ashkenazi history.
I first watched the Center in action in the context of the controversy over the Passion of the Christ. The Catholics were worried about the theology of Jewish responsibility for deicide while the Jews were really only concerned with controlling the discourse about classical Greco-Roman Judean and Galilean history. The Catholic participants were generally convinced that Jesus practiced Rabbinic Judaism, which did not even exist in his time period!!!
Because my interest is political economy, I tend to place less importance on misconceptions about Rabbinic Judaism, but I am impressed how similar are the complaints of non-Ashkenazi David Shasha about Eastern European Judaism and those of Catholic traditionalist Morris Pinay about Judaism in general seem to be.
In truth, Pinay is mostly discussing Ashkenazi Judaism, which is typically the only Judaism, with which most non-Jews are familiar.
Because I attribute the differences between Ashkenazi Judaism and non-Ashkenazi Judaism to the very different political economic environments that the Polish Catholicism (later Russian Orthodoxy) and Arabic/Persian/Turkic Islam provided, I could argue that Catholic misconceptions about modern Rabbinic Judaism are really misconceptions about ethnic Ashkenazi history.
BTW, if the review of Magid's book, which I have not read, is fair, I am not sure that he really understood the (relatively minor and insignificant) argument between the Kulturalisten and the Political Zionists. Diaspora Zionist Culture already reached its final form by 1914, and there has not been much change since.
Avigdor Liberman represents the predominant current of Zionist thinking that goes right back to 1881. He just differs from other Zionists in being more open about the Zionist worldview.
The issue in 1948 was exactly the same as now. If the ethnically cleansed Arabs had returned to the areas under Zionist control, the population ration would have been 600,000 Jews:8-900,000 Arabs.
If all the European DPs had emigrated to Zionist controlled Palestine, the ratio would have been 900,000 Jews:8-900,000 Arabs, but within 5-10 years at least 200,000 Jews would have emigrated while the Arab population would have grown by around 2-300,000.
The Zionist leadership knew exactly what it was doing when it ethnically cleansed the native Palestinian population and did not allow it to return.
I believe that the Zionist leaders actually had intended mass murder and not expulsion, but Palestinian flight forestalled the killings.
"The Catholic participants were generally convinced that Jesus practiced Rabbinic Judaism, which did not even exist in his time period!!!"
Actually, Rabbinic Judaism evolved from the Pharisees which Jesus butted heads with. Here is an entry from the Jewish Encyclopedia which explains how Talmudic Scribes labels him a bastard child:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=254&letter=J&search=jesus#1017
There is more information on the subject in the book I linked in my previous post.
"I believe that the Zionist leaders actually had intended mass murder and not expulsion, but Palestinian flight forestalled the killings."
There is plenty of historical record on their plans and the execution there of which shows expulsion was the goal, only killing to insight flight. Here is one notable source:
http://books.google.com/books?id=pFxrGQAACAAJ
Without a Talmud there is no Rabbinic Judaism. The Jerusalem Talmud was probably completed sometime in the fifth century while the Babylonian sometime in the 8th century. I would argue that Rabbinic Judaism does not crystallize until the 10th century.
As for killing versus expulsion, one can look at German Nazi sources even in 1942, 43, and 44 and be convinced that expulsion was the goal. It requires careful analysis of the data in toto and an effort to understand who was targeted with which materials to show that murder was intended.
The seeds of mass murder were already planted among the Zionist colonists in the 30s when Zionists implemented a program of targeted assassinations.
I am fairly certain that by July 1947 the Zionist leadership was trying to bring its efforts to fruition so that Zionist militias would kill massive proportions of Palestinians.
For example operation names even back to November 1947 were chosen with connotations of mass killing (like biur hametz).
In addition, the Zionist media in Palestine tried very hard during the early 1940s to create an equivalence between Palestinians and German Nazis.
Hebrew educational material especially after the Thawra focused on Joshua as a hero to be emulated.
While I respect Ilan Pappe, I do not always agree with him.
Without a Talmud there is no Rabbinic Judaism. The Jerusalem Talmud was probably completed sometime in the fifth century while the Babylonian sometime in the 8th century. I would argue that Rabbinic Judaism does not crystallize until the 10th century.
As for killing versus expulsion, one can look at German Nazi sources even in 1942, 43, and 44 and be convinced that expulsion was the goal. It requires careful analysis of the data in toto and an effort to understand who was targeted with which materials to show that murder was intended.
The seeds of mass murder were already planted among the Zionist colonists in the 30s when Zionists implemented a program of targeted assassinations.
I am fairly certain that by July 1947 the Zionist leadership was trying to bring its efforts to fruition so that Zionist militias would kill massive proportions of Palestinians.
For example operation names even back to November 1947 were chosen with connotations of mass killing (like biur hametz).
In addition, the Zionist media in Palestine tried very hard during the early 1940s to create an equivalence between Palestinians and German Nazis.
Hebrew educational material especially after the Thawra focused on Joshua as a hero to be emulated.
While I respect Ilan Pappe, I do not always agree with him.
According to international law, the Geneva conventions and just about any legislation regarding the conduct of nations during war – Gaza was one massive war crime against a defenseless population.
Israel purposely, deliberately targets civilians.
That is a fact.
Note that the Talmud is notorious for containing the antidote to any prescription and visa versa. It can be read on many levels and context may be more or less useful, depending on your adaption agenda–and always has been so used. Dershie himself said so, along with a long line of orthodox rabbis–also Julius Streicher who viewed it equally adaptable, and who in turn (at Nuremberg) was accused of cherry picking it for his own ends and ignoring context.
Addressing those people listed below: link to jewishtribalreview.org
@ Citizen ("Who ever had a better understanding of this zero-sum game than Hitler? Start at the top–Torah: The world divided into jews and non-jews. By G-D's fiat. Time to go beyond a God who would discriminate between peoples on the earth, whether interpreted as a horrible but dutiful burden, or an uplifting wing.")
@ kylebisme & the url he/she references.
@ Dan Kelly ("So, is it because Judaism as practiced isn't actually based solely on the Old Testament/Torah, rather is steeped in various rabbinical texts and interpretations, and the subsequent traditions they have engendered?")
@ Joachim Martillo ("Without a Talmud there is no Rabbinic Judaism.)
@ Richard Witty ([Koran and ]"Islam similarly has very divisive definitions of us/them.)
Here's the url again–the article is rather long. The reward is it provides much useful historical context
for this thread, and many others on Phil's blog and the comments to it:
link to jewishtribalreview.org
The record seems fairly clear that many (not all) who know Judaism well, including Jews and gentiles, and practitioners and critics, seem to approach it as an “evil” cult (per the traditional Western/Christian definition of evil), whereas “evil” Jewish cultists don’t subscribe to that definition of evil and their critics do. Israel seems under the sway of Jewish cultists, and Zionism is probably an authentic manifestation of Jewish cultism.
I'm not sure how this squares with the "secular" founders of Zionism, other than to believe that they were, in fact, practitioners of Jewish cultism, or the cult of Judaism, if you prefer.
Where else could you read such vomiteious antisemitic crap?
It appears that Phil's Phools are fulfilling Stormfront's wettest dream.
From Mondoweiss's foremost expert on wet dreams.
I don't believe you have grasped the full depth of Rawidowicz's thought. Try this essay: https://www.policyarchive.org/bitstream/handle/10... "Jerusalem is the point of destination, the end of the journey; Babylon is transition, the journey itself. Babylon is the agent of fomentation, the gadfly that ferrets out the permanent that lies concealed within destruction. Babylon represents not complancency and satisfaction with the status quo but an inner struggle against the status quo."