Jeffrey Goldberg has a very interesting dialogue here with his friend Ari Roth of Theater J in Washington in which he scolds Roth for his plans to mount a production of "Seven Jewish Children," by Caryl Churchill. The Goldberg-Roth dialogue is very long; I've appended my excerpt of the dialogue below.
Why do I find this so interesting? The general tone of the dialogue is not pleasant. It is Ari Roth being on the defensive and Goldberg bullying him effectively. So while Roth completely disses the Caryl Churchill play as "pernicious" under Goldberg's goading, he is never open with his friend about his reason for running the play, because he seems to me intimidated by the glib journalist.
Roth obviously wants to put the play on, and there is a good reason: because Gaza has shocked the Jewish community. You will see that there is an indication of Roth's Gaza upset in this dialogue, but he never does what he should do and confront Goldberg.
He doesn't say: You have been wrong on two very important judgments in the last few years: Tragically wrong on the Iraq war, wrong on Gaza. This is why you cannot be my guide, or my children's guide. You are a victim of the bad Holocaust-influenced teaching that Caryl Churchill is actually examining here.
You will see that at one brief moment Ari Roth, who says he loves Israel, finally says that he is "angry." I think he means he is angry about Gaza. A more worldly person than Goldberg, he knows many Jews are upset and angry. And he is also upset with the Israel lobby, as he hints when he says that organizational Jewish life is not struggling, as he is.
In Goldberg's bullying–and Goldberg is a very smart guy–you can see what I spoke about a couple of weeks ago in a post about My Tribal Minder. He is being Roth's tribal minder. He is reminding Roth about the limits of Jewish identity, and urging him to be loyal to the tribe. He invokes the Holocaust and very much as Gershom Scholem lectured Hannah Arendt about her failure to love the Jewish people, you will see that Goldberg instructs Roth of his obligation to love the Jewish people near the end, or to be accurate–"We
in the Jewish community are motivated to do things because we love
Israel" (which is a truly scary reflection on the Iraq War journalism Goldberg did for the New Yorker).
It is again too bad that Roth did not invoke more universalist principles and say that he sees a permanent war with the Arab world because of Goldberg's militant construction of Jewish identity. He did not say, "Franz Kafka said of you Zionists that you have the Maccabees forever in your mouths! It is too much militarism for me. Please do not tell an agonized artist, Caryl Churchill, to circumscribe her words– when the army you support is not circumscribing its use of white phosphorus on children."
Finally, it intrigues me that Goldberg gives so much room to this dialogue. Someone had to transcribe the tape, that's a lot of work. And why? Because, I believe, Goldberg is secretly fearful. He knows that American Jewish identity is changing, that American Jews are beginning to question Israel's belligerence. Journalist Roger Cohen, shamed by Gaza, is a great threat to Goldberg. Goldberg worries that Ari Roth is straying, and with him is going Jewish identity, and he must collar him now. The abridged dialogue:
AR: We're just trying to understand what she [Caryl Churchill is] saying. Okay?
JG: Why? Why bother?…I'll ask again. Why are you doing this?
AR:
I'm not endorsing it. This is a critical inquiry. And, unlike you, I'm
not saying that I'm not going to deem this play worthy of my attention….you know what our project
is up to in terms of how we love Israel and we wrestle and struggle
with it.
JG: The play's
motivation is to demonize the Jewish people. Or at least the Israeli
branch of the Jewish people. She's basically saying that Israelis are
obtuse to the point of criminality, morally obtuse to the point of
criminality and that they don't care about the lives of other people.
Maybe you'll say, Jeff you're such a tribalist it's
ridiculous, but my general position is that I don't need to listen to
Europeans lecture Jews on morality. I think they have a lot more
repentance to do. Why does Israel exist? Israel exists because Europe
persecuted its Jews! I mean, where's her examination of the British
fault? Where's her examination of European fault? The Jews are a
scapegoat for her…
AR: I wonder whether you're entirely
right about the character of Jews today. And whether we are as
self-flagellating as you think. …Look at how the Jewish community is organized
institutionally here. And look at how we're set up in Israel. Look at
how the Jewish institutions are set up in Britain as well. Do you see a
lot of self-flagellating going on?
JG: Yes.
AR: You do?…It's
not written as a diatribe. And so you have to allow for the art form of
theater to have its way with her text. That is what's going to happen,
that's what's happening in this rehearsal room. I struggle with the
play. God bless me. I'm a struggling Jew. You know?
JG: You
can't decontextualize it. I'm sorry. It comes out of a certain moment
and it comes out of a culture that has demonized Israel….
AR:
I'm saying it's Caryl Churchill's "Guernica." Come and debate this. And
how did Franco feel about "Guernica?" Who knows? He was angry too. I'm
angry….
JG: she wrote a play to
hurt Israel. And to hurt the Jewish cause. Her aim here was to hurt. We
in the Jewish community are motivated to do things because we love
Israel. Even if we criticize Israel, we criticize because we love….
AR: Do you think I'm helping to hurt Israel?
JG: You're the useful Jew. You've made yourself into the useful Jew.
There's nothing you like better than talking about people who are talking about people who are talking about imaginary people who are talking about real people.
"JG: You're the useful Jew. You've made yourself into the useful Jew."
Wait a minute, am I supposed to support Israel on a special-relationship-with-the-US basis, or a me'n-Israel-against-the-world basis?
Wait a minute, why shouldn't I do both? I shouldn't have it all?
I can't read it all! It is pitiful. If these people reflect our elite class, we have a subpar and unfit group of elites. What should any of this have to do with the lives of most Americans? Would these people even notice if the nation were falling apart? Really, would they? And if they did, would they know or care about what should be done? Pathetic!
This is the passage I found absolutely amazing. Mind you, I can understand that as a playwright or director you trust actors more than your intellectual understanding. They live language, they somehow are closer.
But it is so absolutely amazing, that Ari doesn't realize the very simple basic human fact. And no, Caryl Churchill doesn't need to study English "Jews" at cocktail parties to empathize with the larger situation.
Every, I repeat, every mother on earth no matter what her religion or nationality will feel exactly like this:
Why is this simple human wisdom so far from Ari, why does he need an actress to defend this line?
Really, really strange. The only explanation is that he are made to feel he is defending blood libel.
he is made, forced…
Goldberg comes across as being a bit unhinged. Or is it that defensive crouch again?
Defensive like cast lead…
I just wrote this earlier:
Until this negativist exceptionalist world-view changes, and the whole victim narrative is dropped, I don't see compromise.
The pro-Israeli victim and negative exceptionalist narrative rolls on.
Goldberg wrote to Roth:
"my general position is that I don't need to listen to Europeans lecture Jews on morality. I think they have a lot more repentance to do."
I.e., collective guilt.
I.e., given the distance of the Holocaust, *inherited* collective guilt.
I.e., *selective* inherited collective guilt given its absolution of the (disproportionate if not preponderant) number of jews among the Bolsheviks who murdered tens of millions of Christians.
Funny coming from a jew given the history of selective inherited collective guilt ascribed to them for the murder of Jesus Christ.
And Goldberg further wrote:
"We in the Jewish community are motivated to do things because we love Israel."
I.e., violate your loyalty to artistic integrity to deep-six a play because it might hurt Israel that you would otherwise produce no matter who else it hurt.
Wonder just what other "things" Goldberg is saying jews ought to do. Indeed, wonder if there's *anything* that he advocates that jews ought *not* do, other than those harming Israel.
A literal extravaganza of double standards. An open exhortation to behave in every manner that jews have been historically libeled for.
What a mensch.
Israel and the jews deserve a lot better class of defender. There's not a sentence that Eurosabra has written that doesn't kick this guy's ass.
It is beyond amazing that the simple language of this script causes so much evasion. Makes it pretty clear what's in the dozer fuel tanks.
Weiss: "It is Ari Roth being on the defensive and Goldberg bullying him effectively."
Yes, but the end result, the impression the interview leaves, is clear: Goldberg is a Jewish Zionist fifth columnist. The piece could have easily been entitled 'Two Jews have an argument about Israel not intended for American gentile ears.'
The mask is slipping on guys like Goldberg. Their true nature, malice and agenda is finally beginning to show through. That he even published this piece is evidence of how completely out of touch he is with the reality of the new zeitgeist.
And all the king's horses and all the king's men…
LeaNder,
as usual, you are acting as enabler, as co-dependant catering to sympathies for even the worst of the Jews. If you are Jewish, your motives are clear. If you are not, you're just another in a long line of naive left-liberals who have provided the Zionists the camaraderie and breathing room they have needed force open the gates of power, insinuate themselves upon the establishment, and put it to work on behalf of their murderous agenda.
People like you are a MAJOR part of the problem.
to love israel is to love jews is to love this:
“The Israeli soldiers(terrorists. 5ds), wherever they had been, had defecated in choice places. On books, furniture, clothes, and carpets; on bedroom floors; near toilet seats and in bathtubs; on school desks; and in shop windows, people found the rotting feces. Someone swore she knew of one house near the airport where the distraught housewife had discovered feces in her washing machine and dishwasher. One man, we heard, went to his office and saw on every single desk except his own the offensive, stinking pile. Triumphantly, he sat at his desk and gloated over his unhappy colleagues. Then he opened his drawer, and there, neatly lying among the files, was his bequest from the Israeli army.
“And so, after all the ruin and tragedy, after the destruction and pain, the dead and the dying, the lacerated bodies and blinded eyes, the burned and disfigured faces, the windows and orphans—after all this there was left only a great heap of excrement.
they leave their calling stink wherever they go: hebron, gaza, silwan, jerusalem, beirut, baghdad, everywhere.
cowardice. weak sphincters. at one time this condition was named, "A Sharon" and the usa during kissinger time airlifted millions of pooper scoopers. now heavy duty diapers are used. that is why jewish terrorist thugs walk funny.
Where is that rat bastard Witty to tell us that Hamas brought this upon Gaza and that to serve in the IDF is an honor?
Scumbag prick.
The Washington Post today has an article on the production of Churchill's play in Washington last night: 'Seven' Revels In Not Only Acting, but Interacting
The WAPO author Mr. Marks refers to the play as "this piece of agitprop."
No bias there. Read the play yourself. It's short.
Another antisemite raves (disproportionate if not preponderant) number of jews among the Bolsheviks who murdered tens of millions of Christians.
This is a line that gets repeated over and over here, as far as I have seen no one challenges it. I didn't. But repeated lies can become corrosive if not challenged.
Some facts. Yes there were many Jews in the early communist movement. Once Stalin consolidated control, his first victims were the Jewish comrades. Trotsky and Zinoviev and their followers were the most prominent but there were many others. The antiJewish purges began seriously in 1928 and continued at least until the 'Doctors plot' in Leningrad in the early 1950s.
The European fascists and nazis introduced the Jewish bolshivism lie in the 1920's and the American remnants of those movement still use it. Of course these fools are totally irrelevant in political discourse, but I do wish that Phil would ban this dreck from his site.
Churchill to Roth via email: "This leads me to your saying that the play faces charges that it shows “a terrible historical irony, that Jews once under siege are now laying siege.” I’m not sure why that is a charge. It seems a fact."
"Some facts. Yes there were many Jews in the early communist movement. Once Stalin consolidated control, his first victims were the Jewish comrades. Trotsky and Zinoviev and their followers were the most prominent but there were many others. The antiJewish purges began seriously in 1928 and continued at least until the 'Doctors plot' in Leningrad in the early 1950s."
I think the crimes they mention were committed before Stalin took power, and may be a reason for the purges. Maybe I'm wrong, since the Jewish angle was not covered in any of my Eastern European studies.
In pre-WW1 Germany the Socialist Party, the SPD, was founded by the Jew Ferdinand Lasalle. The Jews Eduard Bernstein and Otto Landsberg were prominent leaders, its leading journalists were Jews as were its Socialist theorists Adolf Braun and Simon Katzenstein.
In the first government of Communist Russia there were only 13 ethnic Russian Commissars and more than 300 Jewish Commissars out of a total of 384 Commissars. The billionaire New York Jew Jacob Schiff was the revolution's chief financier. Jews were 1.7% of the population of Russia.
Of the 6 members of Lenin's first Politburo, three were Jews, Trotsky, Kamenev and Zinoviev.
The Jews had their own Jewish section of the Communist Party, the Evsektsiya
In 1919 when a Communist government was established in Hungary four of the five members of the directorate were Jews.
In Eastern Europe Jewish Communists provided the Soviet Union with leadership in East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania and Hungary. The Jew Bela Kun established the Hungarian Communist Party in 1919 and Jews predominated in the leadership. Out of 26 ministers and vice-ministers 20 were Jews. Kun was overthrown by French backed Rumanian forces after 100 days. Kun's sucessor, the Jew Matyas Rakosi was a mass murderer of Christians. The Jewish Telegraph Agency of May 14, 1997, said the Jews "…played key roles in ushering Communist rule into Hungary. In fact, during the brutal oppression of the early 1950s, the regime's top five leaders were Jews."
In Czechoslovakia an estimated 20,000 Jews out of an original several hundred thousand survived the Nazi occupation and death camps. Yet Jews were the major force in the Communist Party rule. The Jew Rudolph Slansky was secretary general of the party and Jews ran the ministries of foreign affairs, foreign trade, state planning and propaganda.
In Hungary Jews headed the ministries of state planning, industry and commerce and Radio Hungary. The Jew Mathias Rakosi was the head of the Communist Party, General Peter Gabor commanded the secret police, Joseph Reval was minister of culture and the regimes chief propagandist.
Between 7,000 to 10,000 Jews served in Joseph Stalin's "International Brigade" of 40,000 volunteers which fought against Franco's forces in Spain. A third of them were American Jews.
Jewish control of Communism was lessened in The Great Terror, Stalin's 1930's purges. Of the 10 million killed in the purges approximately 500,000 were Jews and made up a majority of the politically prominent of those who were executed. Stalin was planning another purge of Jews with plans for sending a considerable number to Siberia but he died before the plan was put into action.
At least eighteen generals in the Yugoslav Communist People's Army were Jewish. Approximately 75% of the officers of the Communist Secret Police in Polish Silesia were Jews.
The three communist leaders who dominated Poland between 1948 and 1956, Jacob Berman, Boleslaw Bierut, Hilary Minc, were Jews. Boleslaw Bierut had four villas and the use of five more.
The Atlantic should fire Goldy.
Bolsheviks were atheists. Some may have been born Jews, but Lenin, who had a Jewish grandfather, and Stalin were not Jews. Most of the early members of the Cheka and NKVD, who did the killing for the Soviets, were baptized and Catechized Orthodox Christians, as were Lenin and Stalin. Stalin studied to become a priest. The Czars and the Orthodox Church informed the Bolsheviks how to govern, not the shtetl. The current conflating of Jew and Bolshevik is some leftover John Birch Society twofer of fear.
@ syvanen,
It's a Leftist/Communist lie that Jewish Bolshevism is a myth. Read Solzhenitsyn, read Slezkine.
The real "dreck" are Leftists who paved the way to our current misery with their co-anti-Christian and anti-Western, internationalist Judeofascist partners.
Funny how the Left condemns fascism even as it has shared a bed with Judeofascists for decades.
Red fascists is what they all are. Totalitarians through and through. The scourge of Western civilization since their ideology slouched out of the East with blood on its hands and perpetual murder on its mind.
The fact that the beast attracted soulless swine like Bush, the Neocons, and the Neolibs, and charlatans like Hagee and Falwell is no surprise. But the beast has been slouching towards murderous satisfaction for decades, putrefying Western and Christian values as it comes.
Reagan never killed the beast, he only wounded it, and was promptly betrayed by his Judas “heirs.” And now it has co-opted the machinery he built to destroy it.
JewsWereNotAlone.
You are spewing lies. To say of 300 Russian commissars in 1919 only 13 were ethnic Russian is a total hoot. My grandfather personally knew two, but they were neither Jewish or ethnic Russian, but were Finns.
Anyway, it looks like I may have opened a floodgate to early 20th century fascist antisemitc lies. Sorry to the others, but maybe this could be the incentive for Phil to purge these idiots. If not, someone might start posting the contents of Henry Ford's antisemitic rag from the 1920s.
Actually ED…most understand that Reagan WAS "The Beast"…a psychotic murderer and embarrassment to humankind.
Ed, I only read the first line. And I knew it was you.
I have to think about what visualization I need now. I think this will do:
BTW JewsWereNotAlone lifted his little essay directly from a site named:
wake-up-america.net/jews_and_communism.htm
Which describes in general the evil Jewish conspiracy that is over running the US. Hey fool, why not just link the article and don't clutter this site. Are you ashamed of it, perhaps?
And Ed, you are definitely in this camp of ultrarightwing antisemitism, spewing lies from the early 20th century. You should be first on any purge list Phil employs.
American Jews need to wage unrestricted warfare against the synagogues and the rabbis.
This is where the pro-israel pathogen breeds.
I especially applaud mondoweiss for recently exposing one of these houses of shame and its repellent fuhrer. All of these synagogue cult meetings need to be taped and posted online so these monsters are exposed.
@ tommy
"most of the early members of the Cheka and NKVD, who did the killing for the Soviets, were baptized and Catechized Orthodox Christians"
Over 38% of those holding senior leadership in the soviet security apparatus were jews.
link to ynet.co.il
@ syvanen. I see you can't dispute the facts I showed.
Now, please dispute that source and the data there, if you can–calling me names or similarly disparaging the source means you have to actually do more than that if you wish to be credible here.
syvanen, I did occasionally. These matters are repeated by Ed and Joachim ad nauseam. In Ed's case, I think it is safe to assume no deeper knowledge, but Joachim claims to have extensive expertise on the sources. He once offered me a reading list of his sources, 20 pages something? Or more? Some Russian. But I decided to contact an historian on Russian history I respect deeply.
Concerning Germany, the Nazis had set their sight away from the usual directions of the colonialist forces towards the wide plains of Russia, and they were quite busy to merge two enemies into one: The communists (they wanted their land) and the Jews. In the process of manipulating the masses they falsified the presence of Jews among communist commissars, and they had a little help from Russia's White forces. It's quite funny to watch how this is done. The numbers contradict each other but they always are towards 90%. The aim shows always clearly. The "Jews" must be the vast majority. here just one page to give you an impression.
But of course it's wrong to deny a strong Jewish presence in leading posts. You have to realize the vast majority of Russians were peasants. Jews at least were able to read and write. So all they did was bend reality their "propagated" way.
Ed's right Alexander Solzhenitsyn broke the last taboo by showing how jews were at least as much to blame if not much more for the millions who died and/or were sentenced to the gulags during the Bolshevik era–they were very much a key part of Stalin's willing executioners. Too bad nobody has the
balls to publish his last major work in English. But there is a composite of his works with the essence of his story on this published in English.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/25/russia.books
Even if a large minority of 38% of all Bolsheviks were born Jews, the other 62% were born Christians. Blaming the Soviet Holocaust on the Jewish Bolsheviks is not historically correct. Lenin and Stalin are the main culprits for the Soviet disaster, as are the Czars and Orthodox Church that preceded them. Many of the original Bolsheviks ended up being persecuted in the Show Trials, including the Jewish ones.
My calling the conflation of Jew and Bolshevik John Birch may be considered an epithet, but I think that is the political organization that has traditionally feared both in America.
Whatever, LeaNder, do you dispute the following claims? Are they just a bunch of spewed lies?
"In pre-WW1 Germany the Socialist Party, the SPD, was founded by the Jew Ferdinand Lasalle. The Jews Eduard Bernstein and Otto Landsberg were prominent leaders, its leading journalists were Jews as were its Socialist theorists Adolf Braun and Simon Katzenstein.
In the first government of Communist Russia there were only 13 ethnic Russian Commissars and more than 300 Jewish Commissars out of a total of 384 Commissars. The billionaire New York Jew Jacob Schiff was the revolution's chief financier. Jews were 1.7% of the population of Russia.
Of the 6 members of Lenin's first Politburo, three were Jews, Trotsky, Kamenev and Zinoviev.
The Jews had their own Jewish section of the Communist Party, the Evsektsiya
In 1919 when a Communist government was established in Hungary four of the five members of the directorate were Jews.
In Eastern Europe Jewish Communists provided the Soviet Union with leadership in East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania and Hungary. The Jew Bela Kun established the Hungarian Communist Party in 1919 and Jews predominated in the leadership. Out of 26 ministers and vice-ministers 20 were Jews. Kun was overthrown by French backed Rumanian forces after 100 days. Kun's sucessor, the Jew Matyas Rakosi was a mass murderer of Christians. The Jewish Telegraph Agency of May 14, 1997, said the Jews "…played key roles in ushering Communist rule into Hungary. In fact, during the brutal oppression of the early 1950s, the regime's top five leaders were Jews."
In Czechoslovakia an estimated 20,000 Jews out of an original several hundred thousand survived the Nazi occupation and death camps. Yet Jews were the major force in the Communist Party rule. The Jew Rudolph Slansky was secretary general of the party and Jews ran the ministries of foreign affairs, foreign trade, state planning and propaganda.
In Hungary Jews headed the ministries of state planning, industry and commerce and Radio Hungary. The Jew Mathias Rakosi was the head of the Communist Party, General Peter Gabor commanded the secret police, Joseph Reval was minister of culture and the regimes chief propagandist.
Between 7,000 to 10,000 Jews served in Joseph Stalin's "International Brigade" of 40,000 volunteers which fought against Franco's forces in Spain. A third of them were American Jews.
Jewish control of Communism was lessened in The Great Terror, Stalin's 1930's purges. Of the 10 million killed in the purges approximately 500,000 were Jews and made up a majority of the politically prominent of those who were executed. Stalin was planning another purge of Jews with plans for sending a considerable number to Siberia but he died before the plan was put into action.
At least eighteen generals in the Yugoslav Communist People's Army were Jewish. Approximately 75% of the officers of the Communist Secret Police in Polish Silesia were Jews.
The three communist leaders who dominated Poland between 1948 and 1956, Jacob Berman, Boleslaw Bierut, Hilary Minc, were Jews. Boleslaw Bierut had four villas and the use of five more."
Between 7,000 to 10,000 Jews served in Joseph Stalin's "International Brigade" of 40,000 volunteers which fought against Franco's forces in Spain. A third of them were American Jews.
That's a clever trick. So the International brigade that drew forces from all over Europe was joined by 40.000 Russian volunteers? Or do you simply merge them all into Stalin's forces no matter which European country they came from?
Now, this would interest me most. Could you elaborate. Give me your source/s?
And: Do you think, Franco was good for Spain?
the Czars and Orthodox Church
Not about the Czars, but you are right there, but concerning the holy Orthodox Church, I can highly recommend this essay to you:
"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion an the Myth of a Jewish Conspiracy in Post-Soviet Russia"
You'll find it here, beneath Downloads, careful it's not bold.
Jews and Moslems seem to be collectively blamed for what individuals have done. Ferdinand Lasalle is identified as a Jew and a communist. All European Jews are then identified as communists. Osama bin Laden is identified as a Moslem and a terrorist. All Moslems are suspected of being terrorists. Hitler and Stalin are never identified by the religion of their birth, which was Christian, and Christians somehow escape being identified as mass murderers.
So now lurker is cluttering up this thread with another cut and paste from:
wake-up-america.net/jews_and_communism.htm
definitely an antisemitic site. Phil purge these idiots, they offer nothing but paste ups of other peoples lies.
I see neither syvanen nor LeaNder did much to actually dispute all the specific claims covered by lurker. I guess I will have to look them up myself, one by one. Might be interesting. Pretty interesting blog you people have here.
What do the Protocols have to do with the data claims lurker posted? LeaNder, are you saying those
are not facts, all just lies, fiction like the Protocols? We don't get much information on this subject in
USA colleges or universities.
There seems to be a lot of people who don't know how to read here.
Being the guy who started the spitting on this thread as re the Bolsheviks and jews I'll first repeat what Goldberg said that I was responding to:
"my general position is that I don't need to listen to Europeans lecture Jews on morality. I think they have a lot more repentance to do. "
Now, firstly, how come it is that Goldberg's blanket laying of blame on "Europeans" generally isn't being noted as racist or bigoted by those so prickly about anti-semitism here?
Secondly, it was *precisely* that blanket laying of racist/bigoted blame that I *was* obviously condemning by my comments about jews being heavily involved in Bolshevism which killed millions. That is, it's no more valid for Goldberg to hold all "Europeans" guilty for the Holocaust than it is to hold responsible any jews who were *not* involved with the Bolsheviks for the crimes of the jews who were.
And as regards the validity of my comments about jews being over-represented in the Bolshevik ranks at times (esp. at the start and up until the Great Terror of '37) if not indeed dominant in them at times and in the most important posts (esp. the secret police, and again especially early on), I would assert that it would be almost impossible to find a historian that would deny this. Read the great (jewish) Richard Pipes, the (philo-semetic) Paul Johnson, Martin Malia …, Hell, read anyone.
Again, that's not to blame any jews whatsoever for those jews who *were* involved. Again the exact opposite was my point because in fact it was Goldberg who was asserting the idea of such collective guilt by all "Europeans."
Even despite the inability of some alleged readers here to do just that it's therefore refreshing to see them react so strongly to their *misperception* that one can blame any jews for what some jews have done. That is, nothing could more clearly agree with my point about the insidious error if not evil of what Goldberg asserted.
LeaNder, syvanen and a few other Left-atheists on this site (and not a few among the larger left liberal "community") are apparently hell-bent on midwifing the next Trotsky, the next Stalin. They remind me of the diverse Satanic cult in 'Rosemary's Baby,' smoothing the way with their teamwork of lies, hypnosis, subterfuge and denial.
Some facts. Yes there were many Jews in the early communist movement. Once Stalin consolidated control, his first victims were the Jewish comrades. Trotsky and Zinoviev and their followers were the most prominent but there were many others. The antiJewish purges began seriously in 1928 and continued at least until the 'Doctors plot' in Leningrad in the early 1950s.
An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people. His Jewish deputies established and managed the Gulag system.
Of course, we had to skip the millions killed by "Stalin's Jews" and go right back to 'victim' narrative. How predictable.
There seems to be an ever-growing attempt to flood all these threads with claims that conflate Jews with Leftism. Whether historically true or false, this is seldom relevant, since the whole point of neo-conservatism, which I regard as to some extent a US-Jewish reaction to the electrocution of the Rosenbergs, was to say, "all right, we shall be Rightists instead, it makes no difference to us, we're a versatile bunch." Also, Trotskyism facilitated this, by remaining Leftist in form and becoming Rightist (anti-Communist) in content.
Nevertheless, ironically, it remains the case that the only escape from 'the Jewish condition', the Jewish stigma, in capitalist class society, is in fact Leftism — but it has to be the real thing, not some 'liberal progressive' sham.
The crux of the Russian Jew-Communist accusation I disagree with is that somehow it was the combination of Jewishness and communism responsible for wrecking incredible numbers of lives. The murderers were informed by their ideology, the Czars, the Church and the violence of the Russian culture more than any Zionist influence. None of the motivation for the killing was to establish and expand Israel, or exalt the Jews. That European Jews were drawn to communism probably had more to do with their being more urban, educated and persecuted than it did to Zionism.
That European Jews were drawn to communism probably had more to do with their being more urban, educated and persecuted than it did to Zionism.
So you're saying they were forced to as victims?
You don't say.
What do the Protocols have to do with the data claims lurker posted? LeaNder, are you saying those are not facts, all just lies, fiction like the Protocols? We don't get much information on this subject in USA colleges or universities.
This wasn't for you, this was for tommy, responding to this:
Lenin and Stalin are the main culprits for the Soviet disaster, as are the Czars and Orthodox Church that preceded them.
He might in fact be interested, you know. As this is a very interesting author. And tommy seems be more interested in historical facts than in ideologically distorted fact concurring with grand fiction. The point is: traditions in the Russian Orthodox Church and yes there are deep links to the Czar.
are apparently hell-bent on midwifing the next Trotsky, the next Stalin.
You never paid attention to my pen name:
LeaNder
meaning: No Leader
thank you.
Are you mirroring???
Some Facts…
Three of the five Russian representative at the Second International were Jews (Pavel Axelrod – Where have we heard that name before – Julius Martov and Leon Trotsky). Considering Jews were 1.7% (I'm assuming Lurker's number is correct) of the population of Russia at that time it's fair to say they were very well represented. There was also the Jewish Labor Bund, not to be forgotten.
In the Illustrated Sunday Herald on February 8 1920 Winston Churchill wrote: There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistic Jews. It is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Personally I don't care for Churchill, but was he lying?
As far as Stalin's purges of the Jews; revolutions often eat their young. Consider what happened to the 'Capitalist Roadsters' (those party members that didn't agree with the gang of four) under Mao or the Jacobins under the Girondists. But the Jewish purging does not negate the fact that they were instrumental in bring the Soviets to power. Stalin was a nationalist, Trotsky and his group were internationalist which is why the New York Capitalists and the lower East side backed him. It was a power struggle and Stalin won that round.
Not all neocons are Jews but…
Mikhail Bakunin sounds like a rather interesting fellow. I think I'm starting to understand the left better.
@ Rowan: "Nevertheless, ironically, it remains the case that the only escape from 'the Jewish condition', the Jewish stigma, in capitalist class society, is in fact Leftism — but it has to be the real thing, not some 'liberal progressive' sham."
I don't see much Jewish stigma in the ethically perverted, morally bankrupt hyper Capitalist society that is contemporary fallen America. I see a lot of Judeophilia. I see a lot of Jewish Zionist racketeering, profiteering, and exploitation, perpetrated along with their atheist-Left and atheist-Right accomplices of similar hustler mentality.
I DO see a lot of stigma of that “type” in historic Christian societies of Western civilization, which is why Western civilization has heretofore been so successful.
The further it has gotten from “persecuting” (which is left-speak for bringing to law, order and accountability) the subversive “revolutionary” outlaws, the further it has fallen from grace and prosperity.
Until it gets its head right, it will continue to fall.
I see that you are now lecturing on authentic Leftism, Rowan, but weren't you recently advertising yourself as a Muslim? Aren’t Leftists staunch atheists who seek to snuff out religion? I guess hustlers change identities like hats.
Zero principles, zero integrity: the mark of a bankrupt, hustler’s ideology. And the hustler ideology is destined for the ash heap of history. You all are just wasting humanity’s time and blood with your infantile games.