I haven't always been the biggest fan of Uriel Heilman, but I have to say he does a great job in his JTA article "Who is Bibi trying to fool?". Heilman presents a basic fact that the much of the press has wanted to ignore: the incoming Israeli government does not support the two-state solution.
Heilman interviews Zalman Shoval, a foreign policy adviser to Benjamin Netanyahu and a former
Israeli ambassador to the United States, after he spoke with the Conference of
Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations in New York yesterday:
I put the question to him simply and directly, and asked him for a simple and direct answer in return: Does Mr. Netanyahu favor the eventual creation of a Palestinian state?
Shoval's response: Um… we'll get back to you on that.
"We're not going to rule out anything at this stage, but we're certainly not foing to determine anything at this stage," Shoval said. "We think it would be foolhardy today to agree to a set formula. There's no justification for a rush into a solution."
Except, perhaps, the prevention of more bloodshed on both sides.
Netanyahu has been careful to leave his options open. While he is on record against a Palestinian state — he fought the idea when his predecessor at the helm of Likud, Ariel Sharon, backed the notion in 2002, and when Sharon announced his plan to unilaterally withdraw Israeli troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip, Netanyahu resigned from the government in protest in 2005 (Bibi was finance minister at the time) — Netanyahu has been more cautious in the last couple of years.
He and his representatives often try to deflect the issue, depending on the audience.
Shoval told me: "The Netanyahu government does not see itself as a government which would lord over the Palestinians."
Think that means yes to a Palestinian state? Thing again.
"I want to state our position very clearly," Shoval said Thursday. "The two-state solution has become a mantra."
"As far as we are concerned," he said, "it's a formula that has to be judged by its practicability, and not ideology for or against."
"Netanyahu's approach to the Palestinians is pragmatic."
But what is it, exactly. To help build Palestinian institutions, "not instead of political negotiations, but as a conduit or corridor for political negotiations," Shoval said.
And then what?
Shoval and Netanyahu's formulations leave the door open for any number of options, including transforming Jordan into the Palestinian state — something many of Netanyahu's supporters favor — or giving the Palestinians limited control over their own affairs and calling it a day. The latter option seems more and more to be along the lines of what Netanyahu is thinking.
The 'Jordan option' for the Palestinians has been rejected again and again and again (there are more, but you get the point). It's not a remote possibility, and for Netanyahu or Israel to put it forward is really a stalling tactic serving Netanyahu's actual plan, which is to formalize an apartheid state in Israel/Palestine. Or as Heilman puts it – "[give] the Palestinians limited control over their own affairs and [call] it a day."
Notice this article does not make mention of bogeyman Avigdor Lieberman. This rejection of sovereignty for Palestinians is not a fringe right demand that Netanyahu is being forced to accommodate – it is the policy that he has advocated for years. It is the platform he ran on. The Obama administration is going to have to come to grips with the fact that its belief in an "inescapable" movement towards a Palestinians state is being destroyed by its supposed greatest ally.
I think the consensus, from Netanyahu to Clinton (ignoring Obama altogether) is that all favour a Palestinian state precisely to the extent to which it's non-viable.
It's like Major Major in Catch 22; people were only allowed to go into his office to see him when he was out.
Actually, the Jordanian sovereignty idea is not a bad one. Israel's main concern is air space and weaponry that could be aimed against them from the West Bank in a Palestinian state that has all rights of sovereignty – including weapons importation, etc. The Jordanian concept provides a more stable Jordanian government, a stable Jordanian peace treaty, a greater flow of access over a wider range for Palestinians, economies of scale, joinder with Palestinians in Jordan (the majority group there) and a lower chance of violence cross-border.
Egyptian sovereignty for Gaza provides a similar working formula.
Yes, this may have been pooh-poohed before. But it was de facto prior to 1967 and the 2-state solution will not work while there is still radicalization of the Palestinian leadership under Hamas. Clearly, the Palestinians have not been able to achieve anything other than violence and hatred over the past 40 years – maybe with the leadership of King Hussein and President Mubarek, they can achieve a better, more productive, more peaceful and less violent life this way.
Another excellent post by Adam Horowitz.
"Who is Bibi trying to fool?"
The same U.S. citizens that so many U.S. Presidents in the past have fooled, those being the same ones Obama is ever more looking like he is going to have to fool too given his weak-backboned approach so far.
In short, by way of also presenting Obama with a subtle statement telling him to go to hell with any idea of a two-state solution, Bibi's just doing Obama a favor. The same way that past Israeli governments have pretended to agree to this or that or a two-state solution so as to provide hapless U.S. Presidents a way to deny that they are hapless and to pretend that a peace agreement is possible. Which of course then saves those Presidents from having to admit that the U.S. is subsidizing Israel's gobbling up of those territories.
After all it wouldn't hardly do for the Israelis to come out and openly say they don't care about peace since they've got unfinished gobbling to do. Would put a President in a terrible bind.
Otherwise of course no-one is fooled. The Israelis know they are gobbling, the rest of the world knows the are gobbling, every U.S. citizen who has paid a molecule of attention knows they are gobbling, and for damn sure the Palestinians knows they are gobbling.
But if you want to give a U.S. President an "out" so that he or she doesn't dream of putting actual pressure on Israel, you have to give them some sham to hide behind.
Israel's cabal here just essentially spit in Obama's face with this Freeman thing, and by not fighting back the writing would seem to be on the wall. Only a matter of time before Obama will be saying "thank you sir, may I have another?"
fascinating fact. haaretz is talking about prisoner exchange that includes marwan barghouti. he would probably sweep any election among all palestinians. maybe there is still hope for 2 state. what will bibi do?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1070733.html
Why is it a pre-condition for Hamas to have to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, when Israel has no similar pre-condition to agree to Palestine's right to exist? Ah, yeah, it must be the pretzel logic of the AIPAC brigade.
Rick Pinto – Hamas explicitly states that Israel has NO right to exist and that it must be wiped out. Here's a bit of Hamas' thinking (Israel does not have this thinking regarding the Palestinians):
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
"Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:"
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)."
'Nuff said. Now, really, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"? If you believe in that nonsense, then there is no helping you. How can you negotiate with anyone who cites a libelous and fraudulent document created by Russian anti-semites?
And, if Hamas, in its charter, states that Jihad is the only way, that negotiation is useless and that Israel must be obliterated (none of which Israel subscribes to), why on earth should Israel negotiate with them unless and until they agree to the contrary. If Hamas wants perpetual war, why are you so against the Israeli's giving it to them? It is really silly and uninformed to think that Hamas can be negotiated with when they have not abandoned their constitutional belief that negotiation is useless.
Once again I ask the question
that you folks seem so afraid to answer,
Why do Jews need an exclusively Jewish State called Israel?
If its for the purpose of protecting the Jews of the world from
harm,please detail for me,just what concrete movement of people from what nations,would descend upon the Jewish people and try to destroy them, if there WERE NO ISRAEL.
And please refrain from saying that: "Because Israel exists so Israel should exist…"
The people of the world need a serious reply, not mantras and circular reasoning..
What rubbish, Harcourt.
You're completely out of your league here, son…
What the phuck are you peddling, Harcourt? Not reality. Not the truth. What is it?
I think Mr Harcourt is shrouded in the delusion that Jack Ross refers to in the following post. I just wish he didn't take up so much space.
"Israel does not have this thinking regarding the Palestinians."
Fenton, are you serious? Wiping out the Palestinians has been Israel's policy since David Ben-Gurion gave the order in 1948 to expell all Palestinians from Israel. You forget Operation Dalat — "Wipe them out."
More recently, Sharon's policy of colonization of the West Bank through the settlements, check points, the separation wall inside the West Bank, encouraging Palestinian emigation, particularly for Palestinian Christians, are all tactics to remove the Palestinians from their land. Israel has not and will not succeed. Until Israeli leaders wake up to this fact and begin negotiating honestly, they are doomed to the same results. Can you blame Palestinians for defending their land, homes and families?
Re: Catch-22. I saw Joseph Heller on the "Great Books" series on cable describe it thusly:
"Catch-22 means that people have the right to do to you anything that you cannot prevent them from doing to you."
That's-a some catch.
how bout the new jersey or minsk option for jews
It's like Major Major in Catch 22; people were only allowed to go into his office to see him when he was out.
Two Catch 22 references in two days, Rowan. That book has been on my bookshelf for years. I started it once, and never finished.
I'm heading down the shore later today for the weekend (New Jersey parlance for going to the beach, although, given the temperatures, I won't actually be going to the beach itself, rather staying in a coastal town).
I'm going to grab Catch 22 off my shelf and try it again.
Actually, the Jordanian sovereignty idea is not a bad one.
For who?
Israel's main concern is air space and weaponry that could be aimed against them from the West Bank in a Palestinian state that has all rights of sovereignty – including weapons importation, etc.
One of Palestian's concerns is air space and weaponry that could be aimed against them from the Israel in a Jewish state that has all rights of sovereignty – including weapons importation, etc.
The Jordanian concept provides a more stable Jordanian government, a stable Jordanian peace treaty, a greater flow of access over a wider range for Palestinians, economies of scale, joinder with Palestinians in Jordan (the majority group there) and a lower chance of violence cross-border.
Why not withdraw from the stolen land in the West Bank and let Palestinians there vote on whether to join Jordan or not? Of course I mean with their land, merging the West Bank with Jordan. Readers, when Zionists talking about the Jordanian solution, they mean all the Palestianians leave their homes in the West Bank and move to Jordan.
Egyptian sovereignty for Gaza provides a similar working formula.
The Egyptian government doesn't want Gaza. This 'solution' is dead on arrival. And of course you've neglected to mention what GAZANS might want.
Yes, this may have been pooh-poohed before.
Reaaallly!! I wonder why.
But it was de facto prior to 1967 and the 2-state solution will not work while there is still radicalization of the Palestinian leadership under Hamas.
No solution will work while there is still radicalization of every major political party in Israel, where fascism is fast becoming the norm.
Clearly, the Palestinians have not been able to achieve anything other than violence and hatred over the past 40 years – …
Clearly, Palestinians have been screwed every time they engaged in peace negotiations with Israel, when Israel has deigned to sit down at the table at all. Peace talks got Fatah less than nothing. There is a clear temporal correlation between peace talks with Israel and acceleration of Israeli ethnic cleansing and colonization in the West Bank. It has been "Hey, we are bothering to talk with at all, be grateful you sniveling untermenschen and ignore the bulldozers destroying your houses, the theft of your land under 'security measures', and the implantation of more colonies filled with gun-toting lawless religious lunatics. Israel has NEVER been willing to sit down and negotiate with Gazans. They are pissed that their colonization efforts failed, being withdrawn in 2005, and they quite vindictive about it.
… maybe with the leadership of King Hussein and President Mubarek, they can achieve a better, more productive, more peaceful and less violent life this way.
King Hussein and 'President' Mubarek are brutal dictators, propped up with American Zionist support at the behest of Israel. Why would Palestinians want to live under them when they can live under their own democratically elected government?
It is really silly and uninformed to think that Hamas can be negotiated with when they have not abandoned their constitutional belief that negotiation is useless.
This is an oft-repeated lie. Israel expects Palestinians to do what they themselves are unwilling to do BEFORE any negotiations begin so that Palestinians will have no 'bargaining chips' at the table. They may be serfs and helots, but they aren't stupid.
The true story behind this war is not the one Israel is telling
The Gaza Bombshell
HAMAS and Israel: Conflicting Strategies of Group-Based Politics, Strategic Studies Institute
United States Army War College
U.S. Pours Gasoline on Gaza Fires
First, Destroy the Archives 9/11 Nablus
Who Profits? Exposing the Israeli Occupation Industry
If Americans Knew
Israel spies on the USA part 1
5 Israelis detained for `puzzling behavior' after WTC tragedy
The High-Fivers, More proof the Israelis were shadowing the 9/11 hijackers
High-Fivers and Art Student Spies, What Did Israel Know in Advance of the 9/11 Attacks?
Readers should ask themselves why the American government so often supports Israeli actions that have either absolutely nothing to with us or are strongly damaging to our own interests. Then ask why coverage in the MSM is so biased away from any assessment of American interests, instead being mouthpieces not just Israeli government, a foreign government, but for radical Israeli political parties, Likud and worse. We were attacked on 9-11 in no small part because of American government support, at the behest of the Israeli Lobby, for Israeli ethnic cleansing, colonization, and war crimes. This atrocity necessitated our attack of Afghanistan, a war we would not have had to fight if Israel-first partisans had not been fleecing us. The Iraq was an even more egregious case of the Lobby betraying America. Zionist neoconservatives made the case for war with lies, told within government and the media, in order to get us to smash a nation that had done nothing to us. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq before we invaded. Israel is not an ally, and the Israeli Lobby in America are traitors who will use you and yours like food animals for as long as they can. Readers, don't take my word for anything. Look for yourselves. If you are a loyal American, you will not like what you find.
The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy by John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt
Harcourt,
The Likud manifesto "flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs".
If party manifestoes that deny the other state's right to exist matter so much that a govt can be boycotted and a whole people blockaded because of it, then we should boycott Likud-led govts just like we boycott Hamas-led ones. But if we don't boycott Israeli govts because of what their party manifestoes say, then there is no principled position for boycotting Hamas, regardless of how many clauses of their charter you cut and paste here.
Mutual recognition comes at the end of the negotiating process, when everybody has defined what exactly is the political arrangement that both sides are agreeing to recognize. Making it a precondition that one side (and only one side) recognize in advance the other side's "right to exist" – or rather its right to exist as a regime that discriminates between its subjects on ethnic grounds, which is what "right to exist" is code for in this case – is just theater to disguise the fact that Israel still has no intention of reaching a genuine accommodation with the Palestinians, but still doesn't want to be seen as the rejectionist party in the equation.
Dan,
I loved Catch-22! It might help you to know that although it is ostensibly about a fictitious air squadron in the waning days of WWII, it is really a commentary on the 1950's, when it was written, including its politics (McCarthyism, HUAC, Alger Hiss, etc.), capitalism and the advertising business of the time(in which Heller was employed, I believe). If you know anything about the history of the 50's you will catch the veiled references. It is also a great book about the use of language to obscure and abuse. I haven't read it in decades but I think that its still highly relevant today.
Harcourt mirror-imaged:
"….. the 2-state solution will not work while there is still radicalization of the Israeli n leadership under Hamas. Clearly, the Israelis have not been able to achieve anything other than violence and hatred over the past 40 years – maybe with the leadership of Mustafa Barghoutti, supported by King Hussein, they can achieve a better, more productive, more peaceful and less violent life this way."
Heil to an Israeli-Jordanian federation!
perhaps seeing what intellectual/political/ethical midgets israel produces for "leaders" it's time to go back to fundamentals and select something new from among their neighbours? It's interesting to watch this mysterious process where Israel becomes less and less jewish – the more it proclaims itself to be so – even as palestinians – and Arabs surrounding Israel – are becoming more so by the day.
Tree,
Thanks! I'm looking forward to it. In recent years I have sometimes had trouble reading fiction, and the fiction I do read is more on the "reality-based" side (Huxley and others – I recently finished B.F. Skinner's Walden Two, which I absolutely loved).
I was going to just read a typical paperback mystery (I had in mind a "Spenser" novel by Robert B. Parker, which I used to read years ago), but I think I'll indulge in something a little meatier, thus Catch 22.
LOL. As I said – WAY out of your league, dear Harcourt.
Well done to all for some excellent comments…
I really don't care what the "Gazans" and the "West Bankers" want anymore. They have voted with disgusting violence. If there were peace with a Jordanian and Egyptian solution – why not do it?
No one is really offering anything other than a knee-jerk reaction why it won't work. I.e., the Israelis want to wipe out the "Palestinians". That's hogwash. I'm out of my league here because I don't have the fundamental idea that everyone else here has – that is, I don't have a massive hatred and distrust of Jews and a massive whitewash attitude regarding Islamofascism.
Dana – Very interesting comeback, but absolutely devoid of reality.
While the Israelis have had to use a lot of their capital to deal with defense-related issues over the years, they have also managed to become one of the pre-eminent states for developing technology that benefits the world.
Here are a few achievements:
Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship — and the highest rate among women and among people over 55 – in the world.
Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."
Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.
Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.
Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.
Medicine… Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentationfor breast cancer.
An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.
Israel's Givun Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, the camera helps doctors diagnose cancer and digestive disorders.
Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.
Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions.
Israel places first in this category as well. A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the ClearLight device, produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct — all without damaging surrounding skin or tissue.
An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern California's Mojave desert.
These are just a few of the accomplishments, here are a few more:
srael the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's population, can lay claim to the following:
Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel. The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.
Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor are produced in Israel.
The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel. Voice mail technology was developed in Israel. Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.
The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.
Here's more: A country minuscule in size and barren of natural resources, Israel has succeeded in defending herself from a barrage of existential military threats while becoming a leader in the global economy. Great in intellectual capital, Israel has developed the world's largest solar power plant (from which PG&E has agreed to purchase 553 megawatts of power, enough power for 400,000 Bay Area homes), as well as the world's largest water desalination plant. She has the greatest number of companies listed on the NASDAQ other than the United States and Canada, has raised the greatest amount of venture capital funds second to Silicon Valley, and has the greatest number of scientific research papers published per capita.
More: The incoming Obama administration is "closely monitoring" the innovative electric car project being developed by Israel's Better Place company, "and may be adopting it," Idan Ofer, chairman of Better Place, has told The Jerusalem Post. Better Place, established 14 months ago by entrepreneur Shai Agassi, aims to switch cars worldwide from the pump to the plug, using battery-powered electric vehicles that would recharge at parking meter-style "charging spots," on a grid powered by renewable energy. Israel, Denmark and Australia are formally committed to the idea. Earlier this month, the Japanese government invited Better Place to work with its local car manufacturers on a first electric car venture. The state of Hawaii signed up to a pilot program last week. The Renault-Nissan vehicles will cost about the same as conventional cars for now, but will ultimately be cheaper, said Ofer. He said they have comparable acceleration, can reach comparable speeds (of 150 to 180 kph) and can run 150-200 kilometers on a single battery.
What exactly is it that the Palestinians (or the Jordanians or the Egyptians or the Syrians or the Lebanese have brought to the world over the last 100 years? The bomb belt? Honor killings? Haute Burka? Murders of homosexuals? Repression of free speech? Diversion of UN funds to Arafat's Swiss bank account? Murders at the Olympics? Murder of a paraplegic on a cruise ship? Hijackings? The answer is nothing worthwhile other than revolutionary anger.
So go spin your wheels, Dana. Israelis are busy with a philharmonic, ballet companies, authors, musicians, scientists and real plans to end global warming and reliance on oil. The business of defending themselves against non-productive murderers is just one of the jobs they have to do.
Palestinians could be doing the same thing with the billions of dollars the world is providing them. Except that most of that money goes to fund hatred and killing sprees.
And Father Ted, with all due respect, Anwar Sadat made a decision to recognize Israel and then the negotiation started. The same with King Hussein of Jordan. They did not come to the table with angry statements that they were going to annihilate the Jews and complete Hitler's task. The latter is the talk coming from Islamofacists today.
More mirror-imaged harcourt:
"I'm out of my league here because I don't have the fundamental idea that everyone else here has – that is, I do have a massive hatred and distrust of Arabs and a massive whitewash attitude regarding Judeofascism"
To paraphrase a great late lawyer; "if the glove don't fit….you must quit"
Dana – You do parasitic mimicry well; originality – not at all. It is not surprising that you support the murderer OJ Simpson and his lawyer's simple-minded rationale for acquittal. It is basically your argument about the Palestinians – i.e., that Jew Goldman and his lobbyist Nicole got what they deserved from the innocent OJ who had "root causes" for doing what he did (even though we all pretend he didn't do it).
I certainly have no hate or distrust of Arabs – only those who believe that mass murder is the means to wipe out the Jews and the Christians.
dan kelly – I dread to see the many great quotes you'll come back with after communing with catch-22 for a whole week-end. Like crime and punishment – a work that'll never go out of fashion – at least as long as humanity remains firmly committed to the pursuit of folly as its prime directive (which is what causes some primates to go nuts – seeing what all that fine evolution has come to….). Enjoy the [re-] read….
Thanks dana!
I really don't care what the "Gazans" and the "West Bankers" want anymore.
And you expect people to show consideration for Israeli needs?
They have voted with disgusting violence.
How exactly have they 'voted' with violence? Do you mean their resistance to ethnic cleansing and colonization? Some Palestinians have engaged in terrorism as part of this resistance, and the Israeli government does exactly the same. Moreover, the Israeli government started the whole large-scale terror show off with the Nakba in 1948. The notion that Arabs are violent and Israelis are peaceful is nonsense. The Gun and the Olive Branch: The Roots of Violence in the Middle East
If there were peace with a Jordanian and Egyptian solution – why not do it?
You are making crucial mistakes in thinking that either the Jordanian or Egyptian governments wants sovereignty over Palestinian areas, or that Palestinians wouldn't rather have a democratic government on their own land. Each Arab government has its own interests, and mostly they do not coincide with Palestinian national aspirations.
No one is really offering anything other than a knee-jerk reaction why it won't work.
Only some Zionists are interested in this solution. There will never be peace until Palestinian either have equal rights with Jews in Israel or a succeeding state, or have their own state. Why should serfs and helots cease resistance? Would you?
I.e., the Israelis want to wipe out the "Palestinians". That's hogwash.
I agree this is nonsense. I have seen no evidence that Israelis want to wipe out Palestinians. They have made great efforts to hinder the development of civic and social culture in order to prevent a Palestinian nation from being recognized as such by the outside world, with concomitant recognition that they have a right to their own state too. This is of course not the same thing as trying to kill them all.
I'm out of my league here because I don't have the fundamental idea that everyone else here has – that is, I don't have a massive hatred and distrust of Jews and a massive whitewash attitude regarding Islamofascism.
There are antisemitic posts on this site, and there are also equally racist posts by Jewish Arab-haters. However, do not make the mistake of assuming that hostility to Israel or Zionism is antisemitism. That is nonsense. I hate neither Jews nor Zionists, nor do I distrust Jews. I do, emphatically and without apology, distrust American Zionists. They have repeatedly shown that their first, and for some only, loyalty is to Israel, and brazenly betray America for foreign interests. It is an ugly thing to say I know, but is no less true for that. The treason is ugly too, and it came first. Israel is not the 51st state in the United States of America. Israelis are not 'the good guys', and no longer can make a shred of a moral argument for our support, and certainly can't make a political argument when American interests are mostly fundamentally opposed. Why should we make any sacrifices for people who frak us over? Would you?
I wish this conflict did not exist, not only in Israel and Palestine, but here in America between Zionists and the rest of us. Jews are an integrated successful part of American society, and it would be tragic if that changed from backlash against Zionist treason. The Lobby is real. The massive disparity between fundamental American interests values and those of the Lobby is real. How do you think it will play out over the next 10-50 years? Is there a chance that when change comes it won't be ugly? If there is it will be because of courageous Jewish journalists and leaders trying to educate and organize against colonial Zionism.
Colin:
You say: "I do, emphatically and without apology, distrust American Zionists. They have repeatedly shown that their first, and for some only, loyalty is to Israel, and brazenly betray America for foreign interests. It is an ugly thing to say I know, but is no less true for that."
Sorry, Colin, but the above is anti-Semitic claptrap. And, unless you believe that American Catholics are "brazenly betraying America" for their loyalty to the Vatican, or that Texans are "brazenly betraying America" for their loyalty to the Saudi regime that funds many of their jobs, or that Indians are "brazenly betraying America" for their support of India and the encouragement of a US alliance, or that Hispanics are "brazenly betraying America" for their interest in ties with Latin and Central America, or that the NRA is "brazenly betraying America" for their senseless campaign to keep heavy weaponry on the streets of American cities, or that the Farm Belt States are "brazenly betraying America" for their support of ethanol instead of more sane alternative energy sources, etc.
The United States gets a great deal from Israel – in addition to the security relationship, we have been on the receiving side of medical, pharmaceutical and technical breakthroughs and inventions achieved by the Israelis.
We are in alliances with NATO countries and with Turkey – are we "brazenly betraying America" by supporting ties with Turkey or with England or with France or with Spain?
How, exactly, Colin, has Israel "betrayed" us?
By the way, Zionism is not "colonialism". If it is, then so is any Arab that is outside of the Arabian peninsula. Or haven't you read about the Arab conquest?
@Fenton – How about mentioning that Israel is a lender nation while at the same time accepting massive amounts of US aid while the US deals with its own financial troubles.
Can't Israel be so prosperous on its own dime?
harcourt: "I certainly have no hate or distrust of Arabs – only those who believe that mass murder is the means to wipe out the Jews and the Christians."
I was ever so tempted to do some more "parasitic mimicry", but this time thought your words merit a stand-alone. Regarding mass murder – seems to me that of late, it's israel that's been at it. Case in point: the recent toll of gaza – over 900 civilians murdered, 235 policement and 250 or so, hamas fighters. Counting police as civilians that's a great ratio of nearly 5:1 civilians to "terrorists". But then, to you – intent is everything – going all the way back to the late great Amaleks (may they rest in peace?)
Perhaps you should add an item to israel's achievements: the art of maximizing collateral damage? and better yet, the art and craft of hasbara explaining why "maximizing" is really "minimizing' (using, of course, the wise and timeless criteria of hachmei helem). Be that there was a nobel price in that discipline – surely israelis would be running away with the lion share.
BTW, were you to look at the achievements of US jews and contrast them with those of israelis (most of whom barely even qualify as "Jews" but we'll ignore that for a moment) you'd be amazed at the relative proportions. Not only that, but in the US, jews enjoy greater security, greater prosperity, greater mental/physical health, cleaner conscience and generally greater civility and social acceptance than in Israel. In fact, by any criterion you choose (except Chelem's), I can prove to you that America is the true promised land of the jews. Wanna try a debate on this score? (and we don't even have to bring any Arabs into the debate).
Oh yes, just one other quality-of-life criterion that Jews in America enjoy far more than their so-called co-tribalists in israel: respect. If you don't believe me, go to Israel, learn hebrew then listen to what your would-be compatriots have to say about American jews and their money-throwing-around ways (sorry, English doesn't count – this waspy language does not lend itself well to the kind of spiteful vitriol that is part of daily discourse in that lovely little country by the blue, blue sea…).
PS can you please get your hasbara handlers to send us the A-team for a change?
"The United States gets a great deal from Israel – in addition to the security relationship, we have been on the receiving side of medical, pharmaceutical and technical breakthroughs and inventions achieved by the Israelis."
got any oil for sale?
Sorry, Colin, but the above is anti-Semitic claptrap.
No, it is not. It is unabashedly anti-Zionist and anti-Israeli. Zionists conflate Judaism and Zionism to cloak themselves in the armor of the threat to label opponents antisemitic. There is antisemitism in the world, and it is separate from and dwarfed by anti-Zionism and anti-Israelism which has a firm and just moral foundation. Jews who don't understand that the rising anger in much of the the world is from Israel ethnic cleansing and colonization, and not some global antisemitic conspiracy, are going to find themselves increasingly isolated. Go out and talk with people, face-to-face if you can, who are opposed to Israeli government policies and the Lobby's activities. Judge for yourself whether they hate Jews or merely oppose Israeli and Zionist-driven American government policies that damage America.
And, unless you believe that American Catholics are "brazenly betraying America" for their loyalty to the Vatican, or that Texans are "brazenly betraying America" for their loyalty to the Saudi regime that funds many of their jobs, or that Indians are "brazenly betraying America" for their support of India and the encouragement of a US alliance, or that Hispanics are "brazenly betraying America" for their interest in ties with Latin and Central America, or that the NRA is "brazenly betraying America" for their senseless campaign to keep heavy weaponry on the streets of American cities, or that the Farm Belt States are "brazenly betraying America" for their support of ethanol instead of more sane alternative energy sources, etc.
There is a fundamental difference between American Zionists and every interest group you have listed. None but the Lobby have a stranglehold on foreign policy with respect to their interests. None but the Lobby fleece American taxpayers to pay for foreign ethnic cleansing and colonization which blowbacks onto America in death and destruction of our innocent people: 9-11 -> Afghanistan, Iraq, and the ridiculous 'war on terror'. The activities of the Lobby are largely culpable for the first two, and wholly culpable for the last two. Neoconservative Zionists lied us into them and broke lots of laws doing so.
There is no Catholic lobby to fund Vatican ethnic cleansing and colonization. Texas aren't brazenly betraying America because they have no loyalty to Saudi Arabia: some of them do business with them; they don't subsidize Saudi Arabian ethnic cleansing and colonization. Indians and Latin Americans who lobby for their respective regions don't ask for and get subsidies for ethnic cleansing and colonization. Neither the NRA nor Farm Belt states get US government support for ethnic cleansing and colonization. Other lobbies for foreign governments have to register with the USG. AIPAC and similar organizations are obliged to by law as well of course, but for them the law is not enforced.
The United States gets a great deal from Israel – in addition to the security relationship, we have been on the receiving side of medical, pharmaceutical and technical breakthroughs and inventions achieved by the Israelis.
We get absolutely nothing from our 'security relationship' with Israel accept hindrance in pursuing American interests. We do, as you indicate with your phrase 'medical…', have commercial relations with Israel. They are mutually beneficial, and their existence in no way justifies American subsidization of Israeli ethnic cleansing and colonization. It's not like we should 'pay' for the privilege of trading with Israel by subsidizing its ethnic cleansing and colonization.
We are in alliances with NATO countries and with Turkey – are we "brazenly betraying America" by supporting ties with Turkey or with England or with France or with Spain?
None of our ties with these, or any other, countries involves subsidization of ethnic cleansing and colonization which damage our interests.
How, exactly, Colin, has Israel "betrayed" us?
Israel has not betrayed us. It is a sovereign nation whose representatives look out for their own interests. It is American Zionists who have betrayed the rest of America by involuntarily involving the rest of us in Israel crimes. I can believe that some Zionists truly do see American and Israeli interests as identical because that is what they are told over and over. But they are manifestly not. However, many if not most active members of the Lobby work in the full knowledge that they are acting against American interests and for what they perceive as Israeli interests.
By the way, Zionism is not "colonialism". If it is, then so is any Arab that is outside of the Arabian peninsula. Or haven't you read about the Arab conquest?
I surely have. They took place between 400 and 800 YEARS ago. They most certainly were colonial and imperial conquests. While Zionism cannot be called imperial because Israelis have definitely not exhibited any desire to actually rule anyone else, it most definitely is colonial because that is how Israel expands its borders. It has colonies in the Golan and the West Bank, upon whose ground Arabs were swept clean. Look up the definition of 'colony' in the dictionary of your choice.
While I apologize for none of the points I have made, I do apologize if I have come across as snide. Sometimes I fail to maintain my target goal level of civility. Are you a new poster? If you are interested in the truth about what is going on this site will expand your mind. Do your own thinking and challenge everyone. Don't be bashful. If you are a right-or-wrong apologist, you'll find some fellow travelers here too.
@dana
Your numbers are fabricated by Hamas. Oh, and the "police officers" (aka Hamas terrorists on their day jobs) are the Palestinian equivalent of the SS or the Gestapo. They are not civilians.
Israel has released a list of 1200 identified dead. The number of identified dead who were members of Hamas or other terrorist groups was 580 (identified by name and affiliation). The total number of dead who were women or men over 65 or under 16 is about 300. Some of whom were combatants, such as female suicide bombers, child soldiers illegally working for Hamas, etc.
The remaining 320 or so were men between the ages of 16 and 64. Israel estimates that 2/3 of them were terrorists.
Most recent numbers I have seen in news reports say that Israel has identified 700 Hamas men killed in the war.
So the number of civilians killed in the recent war in Gaza is about 400, not 900. In urban warfare against a terrorist enemy that wants civilians to die for propaganda reasons, even 900 out of 1200 would be a reasonable ratio of civilians to soldiers. 400 out of 1200 is spectacularly low.
@dana
As to the Jews in America being safe, etc. etc.
As an American Jew I don't worry that America will begin attacking the Jews. My worry is that another genocide against Jews will begin elsewhere and America and the rest of the world will do exactly what they did when the Jews of Eastern Europe and Germany were being exterminated. That is, yawn, and send the few who managed to escape back to die in the gas chambers. Go read about the St. Louis (ship carrying Jews fleeing the Holocaust in 1939, turned away by America) and then tell me how the Jews don't need a homeland.
Tell your Hamas handlers to send their A-team
Colin, considering, you were just accused of being an antisemite or harboring antisemitic sentiments, I think you were very civil.
To me that was a strong and forceful reply, and in these cases I expect them. Snide? I wonder if anybody reads it like that. Considering this:
Sorry, Colin, but the above is anti-Semitic claptrap.
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Dana, I liked your responses too. By now I reflectively scroll on, when I am lectured about Israel's cultural achievements, which I suppose are meant to leave us awestruck.
Dana, great post, disregard the naysayers, they are doing the best they can with what they've got. :-)
If they sound petulant and defensive, it is only because they don't have much to work with. I can relate to that, as I know from personal experience that it is very difficult to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. :-)
"…the incoming Israeli government does not support the two-state solution."
And what Israeli government HAS supported the two-state solution? Oslo was nothing but a mechanism to buy time to confiscate more land, build more colonies, and establish more facts on the ground. Colonization activities were escalated even as the Oslo negotiations were going on.
There has never been an Israeli peace partner.
"Israel's main concern is air space and weaponry that could be aimed against them from the West Bank in a Palestinian state that has all rights of sovereignty"
What complete rubbish. Israel's main concern has nothing to do with that. It's main concern is with eventually having full possession of the West Bank and East Jerusalem without the people who presently live on it.
"maybe with the leadership of King Hussein and President Mubarek, they can achieve a better, more productive, more peaceful and less violent life this way."
LOOOOOOOOOL! With the leadership of King Hussein! Now THAT's GOOD.
Can we get someone serious in here, please?
"Hamas explicitly states that Israel has NO right to exist and that it must be wiped out."
That is a lie. Hamas has explicitly accepted the two-state solution with Israel existing inside the pre-1967 boundaries.
"King Hussein and 'President' Mubarek are brutal dictators"
Ummmmmmmm – King Hussein has been dead for years?