Ali Abunimah responds to Jeffrey Goldberg’s interview with Jeremy Ben-Ami:
Here, Jeremy Ben-Ami describes a one-state solution as a "nightmare":
JG: But they’re by no means Zionists. Helena Cobban, who is going to be speaking on this blogger panel, is close to a one-stater, as far as I can tell.
JB: J Street officially will not use the term "One-State Solution." That is an oxymoron because it is a one-state nightmare. That is the thing we are most opposed to — moving in a one-state direction.
JG: A nightmare for practical reasons or a nightmare for moral reasons?
JB: A nightmare for the Jewish people. There would be no more Israel. One state is not a solution, one state is a dissolution.
Look at his words, it’s really amazing. He could be a white supremacist in the south contemplating the end of Jim Crow, or an Afrikaner talking about the end of apartheid. All this is apparently so unremarkable however when it comes to Zionists contemplating the end of Jewish supremacy. This, as well as J Street’s other recent actions, convince me more than ever that this organization will not be part of the solution. It is at best Kadima to AIPAC’s Likud/Yisrael Beitenu. Which means in effect no difference at all. I think there are some sincere people who may have been attracted to J Street, but ultimately there’s no Zionist solution to the Zionist problem, just like there’s no racist solution to the problem of racism.
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Jewish identity is not the same as Jewish supremacy.
How one is Zionist is a different question than either assimilation or national assimilation/suppression.
Jewish identity is not the same as Jewish supremacy
That is exactly what David Duke says in regard to the “white” race. He doesn’t advocate white supremacy (although he is often accused of that), he advocates white identity.
Do you empathize with Duke, based on your own need for identity within a predefined group?
Richard Witty’s ideas are endorsed by David Duke!
Isn’t that also what the self described “racialists” such as Jared Taylor’s American Renaissance also say? Shades of seperate but equal. Same ol’ same ol’ sounds good but it never was equal and the pretense required active ignorance. Icky.
You got it. No equal opportunity for all lays the tracks for Zionism.
Witty, when it comes to Israel the Jewish identity of the state is a form of Jewish supremacy. Check out the flag. And over 20 laws that give Jews special and exclusive rights over non-Jewish citizens of the state. I agree that Jewish identify doesn’t have to be supremacist, but in the current state of Israel (that Ben-Ami seems to support), it is.
The Israeli primary law includes simultaneously affirmations of:
1. Haven for Jewish people (You could call that prejudicial, supremacist would be an exageration).
2. Equal rights and equal due process under the law for all citizens and residents.
The term “supramecist” is an intentionally Pavlovian word, designed to stimulate adrenaline in dissenters, NOT to illuminate Israeli identity, policy, or proposal.
I LOVE the dual nature of the primary law. That the equal rights element of it is too often neglected definitely motivates my dissenting spirit, but towards reform, NOT towards elimination.
If you are motivated by compassion, then you would consider the consequences of the limited options available.
I severely criticize the Abunimeh formula for achieving equality, of hating and eliminating Jewish self-governance (Zionism) by emphasizing how evil that is (Jewish voluntary self-association), and then somehow urging mutual and universal acceptance to realize a civil single state.
I’ve suggested to him personally (which he’s trashed on), that a more direct line to a democratic civil state is through either/and the two-state solution to realize mutual acceptance accompanied by the formation of linking (rather than isolating) political and social institutions in both communities.
The angry BDS approach entirely conflicts with any assertion of intention for unity. It takes six steps backward for one thousand to one gamble of 1 step forward, and makes it more difficult to accomplish by the means undertaken.
He can’t personally seem to determine which is more important to him, his goal or his anger.
Its a necessary political clarification.
You haven’t either.
Witty, it’s called the basic law, and it in no way protects the rights of Israel’s non-Jewish citizens. That’s why they are trying to promote a constitution for the state (http://www.adalah.org/eng/constitution.php). For this advocacy they’re considered traitors against the state. Pretty tough to reform, huh?
Once again, Witty, you show your ignorance and your belief in fantasy Israel.
Adam’s right. They are not called “primary laws”, they are “basic laws” and they don’t do what you profess they do, otherwise there would not be legal inequality in Israel.
I posted these yesterday. Here they are again. From the official source, the Knesset.
Israel’s Basic Laws
Adam,
Your close parenthesis got included in your link so clicking on it doesn’t work. Try this for Adam’s link:
http://www.adalah.org/eng/constitution.php
The basic laws function similarly to a constitution. The Israeli supreme court weighs cases brought to it against the basic laws, similarly to the US supreme court rules whether application in cases are constitutional.
Israeli supreme court decisions are not regarded as binding general precedent to the same extent that US supreme court decisions sometimes is.
Your dismissal of them, is dismissal of reality though.
They certainly are designed to protect the rights of all residents (not only citizens).
As they don’t, they need reform.
The analogy of Jim Crow is a good one, with the message of the similar remedy. (NAACP emphasizing legal fights – as Betselem has, leadership of people like Phillip Randolph over multiple decades, in contrast to “leadership” of Stokely Carmichael – two steps forward, three steps back).
Rights protected by Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty
The rights protected by this law are detailed in several clauses:
Section 2: There shall be no violation of the life, body or dignity of any person as such.
Section 3: There shall be no violation of the property of a person.
Section 4: All persons are entitled to protection of their life, body and dignity.
Section 5: There shall be no deprivation or restriction of the liberty of a person by imprisonment, arrest, extradition or otherwise.
Section 6:
(a) All persons are free to leave Israel.
(b) Every Israeli national has the right of entry into Israel from abroad.
Section 7:
(a) All persons have the right to privacy and to intimacy.
(b) There shall be no entry into the private premises of a person who has not consented thereto.
(c) No search shall be conducted on the private premises of a person, nor in the body or personal effects.
(d) There shall be no violation of the confidentiality of conversation, or of the writings or records of a person.
However, several cardinal human rights are missing from this document, such as the Right for Equality, Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Protest, and others. These rights were given to the residents of Israel by general principles which existed before this Basic Law. Although these rights were intentionally left out of the law, some jurists, like Aharon Barak, see these rights are directly derived from the “right to dignity”. However, the Supreme Court’s rulings in the matter are inconsistent.
[edit] Guarantee of super-legal status
Due to these rights’ great importance, the Knesset chose to give this law a high legal status, proteced by several means.
Section 8 of this law asserts that “There shall be no violation of rights under this Basic Law except by a law befitting the values of the State of Israel, enacted for a proper purpose, and to an extent no greater than is required, or by regulation enacted by virtue of express authorization in such law.” (sentence in italics added in a 1994 amendment to the law). This clause became known as “limiting paragraph”, as it limits and restricts the Knesset in legislating laws contradicting this law.
Section 12 defends the law from Emergency Regulations, stating that the government cannot change this Basic Law, and thus cannot weaken the rights it protects, by the emergency regulations it can enact. As written: “This Basic Law cannot be varied, suspended or made subject to conditions by emergency regulations;”. However, when a state of emergency is in place, regulations can be enacted that restrict these rights: “notwithstanding, when a state of emergency exists, by virtue of a declaration under section 9 of the Law and Administration Ordinance, 5708-1948, emergency regulations may be enacted by virtue of said section to deny or restrict rights under this Basic Law, provided the denial or restriction shall be for a proper purpose and for a period and extent no greater than is required.” Thus, the protection from emergency regulations is not full, and is up to the government and supreme court’s judgement.
There is no constitution, in spite fo 60 years of trying, probably because a consituon without the affirmation of Jewish supremacy would defeat current governmentr policies in a court of law.
The Israeli government and IDF routinely ignore rulings by the Israeli supreme court, who’s authority would also be stipulated in a constitution. Any suggestino that the government and IDF are not answerable to the superme court would undermine the suggestion that Israel is a land of laws or a democracy.
weighs cases brought to it against the basic laws, similarly to the US supreme court rules whether application in cases are constitutional.
This paragraph in fact limits not the making of laws in contravention of this Basic Law, but the application of the Basic Law itself. Its a giant hole in legal protection when that legal protection goes against the “values of the (Jewish) State of Israel”, thus it provides scant protection for its minorities as long as their rights run counter to the interests of the Jewish state. There’s nothing particularly noble or grand about this law. If it was in the US Constitution it would have been laughed out two centuries ago as meaningless blather. And this Basic Law wasn’t enacted until 1992.
“I severely criticize the John Lewis formula for achieving equality, of hating and eliminating White self-governance (Biblical Separation) by emphasizing how evil that is (White voluntary self-association), and then somehow urging mutual and universal acceptance to realize a civil single state.” I totally agree Mr. Witty: we need separate but equal.
“The angry Martin Luther King approach entirely conflicts with any assertion of intention for unity.”
The Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) called MLK, “the most dangerous Negro in America.”
By the way: a large amount of jobs in Israeli society are based on military service, obviously Palestinian-Israelis are not eligible for these jobs. Also, in terms of Israeli citizens, 4 times as much money per pupil is spent on Jewish students as Arab students. The comparison to Jim Crow is quite appropriate; does this sound familiar? The Arab classes are overcrowded and dilapidated, underfunded, with a constant teacher shortage.
Amen, Adam. I would love to see the Palestinians, even Hamas, publicly commit themselves to peaceful transformation to a one-state solution on the American model based upon full equality of citizenship regardless of religion or ethnic backgound, with freedom of worship for all. No expulsion, no violence against Jews, no imposition of Islam or Islamic law – all the bugaboos claimed by the Israelis. Exactly how would Israel respond – by opposing equality? They would have to say the Palestinians are not sincere, and are trying to lull the Israeli Jews into a situation in which their throats can be slit in the dead of night.
You can read a deputy of the political bureau of Hamas backing the one-state solution here, but of course the Zionist response is to obfuscate anything of the sort.
I second the Amen, Adam. Great post.
No expulsion, no violence against Jews, no imposition of Islam or Islamic law
Screw Islamic law! If Israelis are not to be prosecuted, there will have to be an abscence of any law. So the price of one state is complete amnesty for Israeli murderors and torturers and war crimes perpetrators? And these will be useful and loyal citizens and be ready to do the one-State two-step?
So the price of one state is complete amnesty for Israeli murderors and torturers and war crimes perpetrators?
If that’s the price for peace it should be paid. Justice for the dead is less important than justice for the living and the unborn.
And these will be useful and loyal citizens and be ready to do the one-State two-step?
I think you nailed the heart of the problem. The laughable inability of the Israeli justice system to prosecute Jewish crimes against Palestinians hinders or arrests progress towards a peaceful solution of any kind. This does not stem from incompetence. It stems from the vicious racism that saturates Jewish Israeli society. I think that many Israeli Jews simply cannot bring themselves to support equal protection under law because they do not see Palestinians as being full human enough to warrant it. Until Israeli Jews (or another party) are willing to punish their “murderers, torturers, and war crimes perpetrators” for crimes against non-Jews as they would those against themselves, a one-state solution will be impossible.
I’m completely in favor of amnesty, as long as the law is thereafter equally enforced. This seems ludicrously unlikely at present without decisive external intervention, which is even less likely.
You’re back! Thank God.
The higharchy abbass daclan, are running amuck and pocketing mucho mula at the expense of the Palestinians, simply cause the USA aid to the “clearly” unelected party in weapons allowed them to do so. Money and corruption talk with volume
deafning the people misplaced by “the USA puppet abbass” zoning changes and building permits all made to benefit the corrupt..since when does a hotel 10 story go up next to a residential neighborhood, Abbass should be hung, as there is no doubt a money trail is in on this scham. A counter culture of divided families and seperation from what was once a whole community of Palestinians Christain and Muslim all together against the machine..now they are aginst one another ..it is only a matter of time, this cause is all but lost from vocabulary. Evil has won.
If you ever listen to the Palestinian Jews they say all the time that they were doing just fine and dandy before the Zionist invasion. Arab Palestine was for Arabs. So for all these problems and complications everyone keeps talking about…the Zionists brought with them every problem for everyone. It’s not the Palestinian question. It’s the Zionist question. The Zionists are the problem!
seansmom – The Palestinian Jews might have been doing fine before the Zionist invasion. (The Zionist invasion certainly began by 1918, so you can only speak to their children or grandchildren.) But they were a small group, that was mostly religious and submissive, who believed in kowtowing to the authorities rather than demanding political or full economic rights.
Today there are many Jews and they are not submissive. And even if they would avoid Zionism (if Zionism means that Jews must rule) you cannot go back in time to the religious submissive attitude of the Jews of the late 19th century. So it is more than Zionism that is the problem. Unless you advocate kicking out all Jews who are not submissive.
The reference/title Palestine was determined by the British Mandate of Palestine, in 1922 and included all the land lying to the west of the Jordan River; that is, all of what is now Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza Strip. The term “Palestinian” referred to all people residing there, regardless of race or religion. Those granted citizenship, were granted “Palestinian citizenship”. That included descendents of Judah who were there. For the most part Palestinians got along fine, and all enjoyed equal economic rights, until the Russian and European refugees began to arrive.
“… anyone with roots in the land that is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza is technically a Palestinian …”
(Source: The online encyclopedia; Jewish Virtual Library)
In other words, any Jew in Israel today, who descends from a jewish citizen in British mandated Palestine, is technically a Palestinian. Chew on that for a while.
The name Palestine didn’t come out of thin air! Historically Romans refered to the coastal area below the Jordan River as Palaestina. The name denoted an area as opposed to a government or nation and hung on right up through the nineteenth century when the area refered to as Palestine was defined as extending from the sea to the caravan route. Or as extending from the sea to the desert.
Etymology will only carry so far. There are other issues, namely the use of etymology by those who believe, and want the rest of the world to believe, that all those refugees who claim to be descendents of the Tribe of Judah are racially pure. But more than that, want the rest of the world to believe that they are in their entirety Israel and fully and only able to claim to be Israel in it’s entirety. That’s simply not the case. That they, (or whoever chose to name their settlement in the land of Palestine, Israel) chose the name Israel, implies that ALL the descendents from ALL the tribes of Israel are welcome there. And that would be just about everyone in the world. At least according to the word of the Bible.
Abraham’s son Isaac, had a son Jacob (who was renamed Israel), who had 12 sons (from whom came The Twelve Tribes Of Israel), one of which was Judah, from whom came the Jews. The first “Jew” was Judah, Abraham’s great-grandson. So what of all those other sons and grandsons and great grandsons? What of all those other descendents of Abraham and Israel? God promised Jacobs great grand-father Abraham, “All the land that you can see” and that his seed would be “like the dust of the earth” in number. A promise made to ALL of Abrahams descendents!
In other words, please avoid the temptation of assigning those who believe themselves to be direct descendents from the tribe of Judah the daunting task of being all of Israel, or exclusively entitled to the promise God made to Abraham. That’s not historically acurate. That’s no Biblically accurate. That’s not entymologically acurate. And, that’s not nice. No wonder they have so much trouble hanging on to what they think is exclusively theirs!
When you-all grow up enough to realize, entitlement to eternal marterdom is not necessarily a goal worth fighting and dying for, perhaps we’ll finally see peace in the Middle East. But I doubt that will happen in my life-time. Old habits die hard.
Now, just as back in the days of Abraham when his sons Ishmael and Isaac fought for control of that promised land, their descendents fight on. Battles have taken place within yards of what is believed to be Abraham’s grave. (located in Hebron in Palestine) I wonder what he would say to his descendents if he were to wake one day and walk outside.
In other words, Palestinian Jews were doing just fine before the Zionist invasion because they weren’t trying to ethnically cleanse their Muslim and Christian neighbors. Fancy that.
There is something between being an Uncle Tom and being a black separatist. You’re saying they were doing fine because they weren’t being black separatists. I’m saying they were doing fine because they were Uncle Toms.
And your depiction of pre-Zionist Palestinian Jews is just as much a stereotype as any other. Hopefully you are aware of that.
No one here is suggesting that Jews in Israel/Palestine should be treated as lesser beings. All we are demanding is that Palestinian non-Jews not be treated as lesser beings either. Jewish rule in Israel/Palestine has proven to be a moral disaster. Much better should be that the government act as the agent of ALL its citizens/inhabitants.
Also, the comparison to black separatists is inapt. The Zionists acted like white supremacists, or perhaps more aptly, like European supremacists, which is what the majority of them were. They looked down on both the native non-Jews and the native Jews, not because they thought them docile, but because they thought of them as dirty and backwards and primitive people. This is why the new Yishuv treated the old Yishuv with the same distain they had for the other Palestinians.
Just found something interesting. Mark Green, who campaigned, in Phil’s words, as “a blind supporter of Israel and opponent of Arabs,” is on J Street’s Advisory Council.
Mark Green who hosts the show Flashpoint?
Its fascinating to see the 1 state solution make a come back now.
During Intifada 1 most of the Palestinians that were non-violently resisting the brutal Israeli occupation were hoping that they would obtain equal rights to those of their Jewish counterparts.
Israel saw this as the “nightmare scenario” and thus paved the way for Oslo process and the eventual peace through a 2 state settlement. Unfortunately, we have seen that Israel has no intention to allow for the formation of a viable Palestinian state. This clearly means that Israel will eventually (in the near future) accept the one state solution, or have to commit a massive act of genocide. At the moment, Israel is merely squeezing the Palestinians into tighter and smaller bantustans, ghettoizing them, terrorizing them, and destroying their economy, in the hopes that more Palestinians will see their future in a place other than their historic homeland.
What I suggest to people who actually care about securing for themselves a “Jewish” state is to actually accept the fact that Israel is engaging in activities that are hindering such a development. Israeli supporters can’t continue to lie to themselves and state that “Hamas is preventing peace” especially considering that Hamas has continually agreed to a full peace with Israel multiple times based on the 67 borders.
Supporters of Israel, the choice is yours. If you guys don’t fess up and accept that Israel is the true obstacle to peace, then you will be forced to make two decisions: The One State solution guaranteeing equality for all (and the end of a Jewish supremacist state) or straight up genocide. The choice is yours.
So – the one-state solution is a dissolution (according to Ben Ami + most of israel) and the two-state “solution” is a sham (according to you, which I agree with along with a host of sanity afflicted individuals). So it’s between a rock and hard place, ain’t it?
Do you think there’s any chance Israelis will come around to see what must be done anytime in the next decade? I know I hold little hope for that because the entire state seems gripped by a weird kind of national psychosis to which no cure is in sight. I know it has something to do with arrested development, but that’s not much of a diagnosis. Sometimes I think that BDS + Goldstone injection may work as a kind of shock therapy. But at other times I remember that such therapies rarely work with individuals, much less with collectives. Ultimately, a patient must recognize the need for therapy before anything administered can be effective. otherwise, they’ll just skip the medicine when they think the storm has passed, or no one is looking (back to the arrested development theme…).
Sigh. Your diagnosis and pessimism are spot on, Danaa. Ultimately, if there is any solution at all, it will begin with pressure from outside and international isolation, whether the patient likes it or not. I don’t see this happening any time soon – or working, to the extent that it does happen – but we owe it to the Palestinians to try.
The problem is that many of Israel’s English-speaking supporters, you know, the ones many on here interact with don’t even live in Israel. They live their lives secure in the notion that somewhere across the ocean, there exists a land of milk and honey that can do no wrong and must be defended by bastions and moats. Many have never spent more than a month there, let alone speak the local language. So what kind of mental psychosis is that?
The same kind of mental psychosis whereby Christians send their money to televangelists. Different voice, same tune as the Zionist racket.
I’ll bite. The “two-state solution”, as envisioned by J-Street, is an oxymoron because it is a two-state nightmare. It seeks to perpetuate inequality between Jews and Palestinians in all of Israel/Palestine – to maintain the Jewish state’s military and economic supremacy over any eventual Palestinian state, and to maintain the supremacy of Jews over Palestinians within the Jewish state itself. Two states are not a solution; they are a sham. What part of “one man one vote” don’t they understand?
Shmuel – I would only add that two states might be a feasible short-term temporary step. I think that the unequal situation among Israel’s minority Palestinian civilians requires eventual redress. However, the situation among the Palestinians in the territories is far more acute. Citizens of Israel may be analogous to the American South of the 1950’s, but non-citizens are more like South African blacks during apartheid. I would favor whatever would alleviate this intolerable situation quicker. The two-state situation would be more acceptable to Israelis (although the settlements have made it difficult if not impossible to achieve). I would not condemn Palestinians in the territories to live like that until the ideal one-state solution becomes possible. But I do not see two states as a permanent solution. Ultimately, the state-mandated discrimination within Israel itself will prove morally unacceptable.
David,
The problem in the Territories is certainly far more acute, and must be addressed immediately, by whatever means. Even two-states is too much of a pipe dream at this point however, to offer the Palestinians any real relief. That is why the entire issue must be addressed from the perspective of international law and human rights – which would seem to point to a single democratic state as a final goal. The two-state idea is not justice or human-rights oriented, and so has little to offer even in the short term. Palestinians must first be recognised as human beings with equal rights to Israelis. The first shaky steps toward two states (Oslo) merely made things worse for the Palestinians. I agree that a Palestinian equality-based initiative could go a long way.
Don’t worry. Lieberman will work out the kinks involved in Transferring Palestinians out of Israel soon.
J Street is only perpetuating the Zionist campaign of deceit by advocating a phony peace process aimed at a “two state solution” that is neither a state nor a solution but a system of Arab Bantustans enclosed in an apartheid ghetto.
My question/comment above was addressed to shmuel, in view of JB’s comment. The interface here is really something….
Its laughable what you anti Israel people think.
The Palestinians cant even live among themselves.
How do you think Jews would live with people and their radical islamic agenda.
The Arabs have 21 countries including 80% of the Mandate borders.
Jews are barred from living in Jordan and the Arab Gulf states.
Do any of you complain about that? No
Shavua tov, Nomi. Hope you had a good Shabbat. Look around a little. Read some of the comments, and you’ll soon see that this forum needs something a little more sophisticated than the old “the Arabs have 21 countries” line.
Animals on two legs, aren’t they? How dare they occupy space where Jews might want to live!
Isn’t it a shame any of them were left alive in 1946, how much better and simpler it would have been!
What’
What’s laughable (as well as sad) Nomi is your ognarnce of the fact that Palestinians live among themselves for millenia and got along fine with the very few Jews who lived among them. The radical islamic agenda didn;t exist trhen becasue the Jews were not behaving like murderous barbarians.
Israel have at least as many countries to move to should they decide. In fact, most of the Jewish immigrants after WWII didn’t want to go to Palestine, but the US, Europe and other countries.
Israel are deporting Israeli born children of Arab background from Israel as we speak. Do you complain? No.
Nomi – Perhaps you could lead a campaign on behalf of all Jews the world over who wish to emigrate to Jordan and acquire citizenship but are prevented from realizing their dream by this anti-Jewish law. Does anyone know if there really is that law, by the way? I’ve seen it touted by Dershowitz, which renders its accuracy extremely questionable.
I’m not an expert on Jordanian citizenship law, but having read Dershowitz’s claim and the “evidence” he uses to support it, I believe his claim is false. The only “evidence” Dersh cites is the 1950’s era law that gave citizenship to any Palestinian, not Jewish, who had lived in what was once Palestine. Since these were the ones who had become stateless because of Israel’s ethnic cleansing, and no Jews were stateless, having Israel as their State, this law makes perfect sense in that context. However, to Dersh, this indicates a horrible anti-semitic plot on the part of Jordan. But that’s all the “evidence” he has. If he had something stronger than that he would have laid it on the table. He’s a lawyer and he knows how to make the strongest case, but this is all he has.
As for Nomi’s broader contention that no Jews can live in Jordan, that is categorically wrong. I remember reading a few years back about a Jewish woman who had set up a company there employing local Jordanian women in textile production.
Update: The Hasbara Buster has done a good job refuting Dershowitz’s claim here:
http://thehasbarabuster.blogspot.com/2009/08/another-lie-dershowitz-told-you.html
Right, Nomi, and Holland is Germany, France is Belgium, and England is Ireland.
רק אדם נחות ונאלך חושב במוסגים שטחיים ומטופשים כאלה
As the translator in The Great Dictator would have said: Nolan has just referred to the intelligence and character of Nomi998 and the quality of her arguments :-)
Witty suffers from Tom Friedman syndrome. For years, Friedman advocated his personal vision of how the Iraq war should be fought. If you opposed the actual Iraq War, you were wrong according to Friedman. And if you favored the actual Iraq war you were also wrong in Friedman’s cosmos. If you drew the conclusion that Friedman’s war was not on the table, then Tom considered you unserious and morally deficient.
I would not rule out that one could construct a Zionism which did not involve Jewish supremacy, but after 60 years of the Jewish state we have to consider the substantiations of Zionism that now underpin the current political constellations in Israel. All of them are supremacist. That is why someone like the Magnes Zionist ends up having to support Hadash.
I would also not rule out that a theoretical Communism could be constructed that was not oppressive and not authoritarian, but after so many failed real-world attempts at Communism can one still ignore the high probability that there are fundamental flaws in Communist ideology?
Witty’s Zionism may be theoretically everything he claims, but it is irrelevant to the real Zionism. It’s his own personal little Zionism. If I’m wrong, then Richard should make aliyah and proselytize among the faithful instead of to us. If he is right, there might be a Nobel Peace Prize in it for him.
Zionism is broader than one interpretation.
It is an ideology, whose application is varied.
Witty – you need to read Avishai’s “The Tragedy of Zionism” from cover to cover. Don’t let the name dissuade you – it’s a first rate account of how zionism came about, with all its myriad of players and politics, both before and after the founding of the state. After you read it, we can discuss the “tragic” part.
Yes yes. Cling to that Zionism is varied nonsense. Whatever helps you sleep at night. It’s always nice to see an a child outgrow his blankie and move on to something else for reassurance.
Zionism is as Zionism does Witty.
Like all religions or ideologies, it began as a noble idea that has been corrupted and sabotaged by right wing extremists.
Zionism is a broad worldview. There is no such thing as “Zionism does”.
Individuals and groups do.
zionism is in fact the opposite of what you suggest witty.. it is a very narrow worldview…
Really, Witty? You going to apply that same generous viewpoint to Nazism, too, Witty?
And the Crusades did not involve Christianity, and the pogroms of old Russia did
not involve anti-semitism. Mere ideologies, all, harmless as a book in the head. Joshua never lived either.
James Bradley, this is who you want a 1 state solution with.
Are you serously that crazy?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1210668634777&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull
Zahar: ‘We will persecute the Zionists’
May 14, 2008
I’ll bet James is sane enough to understand the fact the man you quote doesn’t speak for the millions you ascribe his words to.
And your point nomi? Zionism today means that Jewish people have the right to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians. Zionism as its practiced today means that women, children, and babies are allowed to be burned to death with white phosphorus. Zionism today means that Israel has a right to brutally occupy the Palestinians, and subject them to a medieval siege. Zionism today means that Israel has the right to use one of the most powerful military machines on the planet to drop 2 ton bombs on people armed with rocks and home made rockets.
In any case, NO where do you see Zahar saying that “they” will persecute the Jews. Furthermore, quoting Zahar the most hardline member of Hamas is akin to quoting Israels FM Avigdor Lieberman as the voice of Israel.
You should be quoting the leaders of Hamas like, Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Meshaal who have been stating for quite a few years now:
Does a besieged people that is waiting breathlessly for a ship to come from the sea want to throw the Jews into the ocean? Our conflict is not with the Jews, our problem is with the occupation,” Haniyeh said.
and:
“There’s no doubt that both the Arab world and Hamas will accept Israel’s right to exist in peace within 1967 borders,”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html
And there you have it Nomi. The problem is the brutal occupation. This conflict has nothing to do with “Anti-semitism.” It has all to do with a brutal military occupation, and the after effects of a brutal ethnic cleansing.
Once you understand that, then, and only then will you be able to find a real solution to the conflict. Don’t sit there and think for a second that somehow the group armed with rocks and home made weapons, is somehow an obstacle to peace.
James Bradley- You didn’t give the entire quote: He (Haniyeh) said “the Hamas government had agreed to accept a Palestinian state that followed the 1967 borders and to offer Israel a long-term hudna, or truce, if Israel recognized the Palestinians’ national rights. ”
Firstly a hudna is not recognition, but a truce. (I think we’ve had this “discussion” before. But apparently without sufficient resolution for you to continue to partially quote Haniyeh and assume you are not somehow misquoting him.)
Secondly, what do you think he means by “If Israel recognized the Palestinians’ national rights.” I interpret it to mean the “right of return”. Do you have another interpretation?
A truce is the first step to calm, peace and then recognition.
And seeing as Israel refuses to recognize a Palestinain state, why should they be forced to recognize Israel? Araft recognized Israel, and all it did was get him killed.
WJ – your statement seems to imply that there is something wrong with asserting the Palestinian right of return.
If your case is so strong why do you stoop to falsehoods?
The Palestinian “right of return” is something which many Palestinians and their supporters advocate and most Israelis and their supporters oppose. To declare that Hamas is willing to recognize Israel if it returns to the borders of 67, while omitting the “right of return” issue, is to express a falsehood for it means that there is another vital issue that Israel is supposed to agree to before Hamas will “recognize” Israel.
There is nothing wrong with the concept of a hudna. There is a falsehood involved when one forgets to mention it and instead uses the terminology that Hamas has agreed to recognize Israel.
If your case is so strong, why do you stoop to falsehood?
Shingo – Rumors have it that Arafat was killed by AIDS. Why include Arafat’s death when it is the PLO that refuses to release the autopsy report?
If your case is so strong why do you stoop to innuendo?
To James Bradley: “Furthermore, quoting Zahar the most hardline member of Hamas is akin to quoting Israels FM Avigdor Lieberman as the voice of Israel.”
I agree, but quoting Avigdor Lieberman as the voice of Israel is something that this web site does constantly.
To James Bradley- You said, “Don’t sit there and think for a second that somehow the group armed with rocks and home made weapons, is somehow an obstacle to peace. ”
This is utter nonsense. If there is a Palestinian state don’t you think they will have the ability to ship in some weapons that are not home made? So their attitude is certainly relevant, not just their current lack of weaponry.
If your case is so strong why do you stoop to such faulty arguments?
What falsehoods am I stooping to?
As the head of Hamas has stated, the demand for recognition is just a stonewalling tactis by Israel. Since when has Israel cared abotu world poinion, much less what the Arabs think? After all, Netenyahu refuses to accept a Palestinian state outright.
When Arafat recognized Israel, nothgin changed. No Palestinian state emerged.
Arafat was not killed by AIDS. He dies wile under house arrest by Israel, who controlled the food he ate and the air he breathed. An advisor to Sharon stated that Israel murdered Araft. I mention Arafat becsue he is an example of how Israel treats those that appease them.
The autopsy was carriedout by Israeli appointed pathologists.
Shingo – Why do you stoop to conspiracy and falsehood if your case is so strong?
Arafat’s autopsy was conducted in France. You claim that the pathologists were Israeli appointed? You weaken your cause with such a conspiratorial outlook.
If Hamas doesn’t want to recognize Israel and wishes Israel to withdraw without such a recognition, maybe this is reasonable, maybe not. But to claim that Hamas has offered to recognize Israel is a lie, if those are the facts.
wondering jew,
Why do you feign ignrance?
Former Longtime Confidant Accuses Ariel Sharon of Assassinating Yasser Arafat
http://altnews.com.au/drop/node/3945
Furthermor I never claimed that Hamas has offered to recognize Israel per se, but that by supporting a 2 state solution, it recognizes there is a state called Israel. Meeshal said as much to Sy Hersh in an interview.
You are just splitting hairs.
Shingo -splitting hairs with an ax is a zionist specialty (actually, it’s jewish, but I don’t wish to wake mooser up from his slumber just now). By drawing attention to the hair shreds, while waiving the holocaust/anti-semitism ax, they hope we’ll forget about the other ax(es).
WJ is a perfect example; instead of discussing the possibilities that come with a truce and weighing conditional/counter-conditional recognition offers, he concentrates on the fact that a hudna does not equal recognition. While, denying even the possibility of recognition to the other side and decimating their numbers by any means the they think the world will put up with.
My conclusion: if hair-splitting and putting-carts-before-horses is more important than negotiating towards peace, then I’m right to conclude that perhaps peace is not really on the agenda. Winning an argument is.
Danaa- Please don’t refer to me in the third person. It’s rude.
Shingo- Your honesty on this thread has been quite lacking. You first claim that no Jews were kicked out of the West Bank in 1948 and then you say that it wasn’t the formal policy. This type of backtracking does not make for an honest conversation.
Danaa – My initial reaction was to James Bradley’s assertions regarding Hamas’s positions. If you feel that I wasn’t attacking his ideas frontally, I will do so now.
Personally I would negotiate with Hamas and I would agree to a 61 year hudna in exchange for withdrawal from most of the post 67 territory they would demand.
The exceptions would be those made by Yossi Beilin in his negotiations with Yasser Abed Rabbo in the Geneva “Accord” agreement of 2003. (Actually I understand from statements made by Dan Meridor that the offer made by Olmert to Abbas last year were better for Israel than those negotiated by Beilin and I would prefer the best deal possible for Israel. But because Olmert’s offer is not public and Beilin’s offer is public I choose to cite Beilin’s.)
The fact remains that I was not elected as Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu was. The policy of the state of Israel is not to negotiate with Hamas. I understand this policy and I can defend it, though it is not my own.
I feel that assertions made on this site or anywhere else should be as true as possible. Slips of the tongue (to use a phrase) can be permitted, but blatant lying even if it is hair splitting should be avoided as much as possible. Otherwise people are not on the same page.
You’re such a whiner, WJ. If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Chaos- I don’t see any reason why a discussion cannot be civil? Do you?
Nice fig leaf, WJ… but it doesn’t cover up as much as you think it does. Why should we be civil? You’ll just turn around and knife someone in the back for their courtesy the next chance you get. You always do.
Sorry Wandering Jew but you fumbled again.
Hamas did not call for a hudna, they called for a FULL peace based on the 1967 borders. Jimmy Carter even went to Damascus to hear it for himself from Khaled Meshaal.
“There’s no doubt that both the Arab world and Hamas will accept Israel’s right to exist in peace within 1967 borders,” Carter said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/21/israelandthepalestinians.usa
Furthermore, Hamas accepted the Arab Peace Iniaitive of 2002, 2007, and 2009, multiple times.
The Intiative called for the formation of a Palestinian state BASED on the 1967 borders and for a committe to oversee what can be done for the refugee’s. Finally, Israel would receive full recognition from all Arab states and Iran, and that would be the end of the conflict.
Hamas, the most extreme group amongst the Palestinians agreed to a full peace that would leave them with only 20% of their historic homeland. This is despite the fact that if Justice were to actually be served the Palestinians all of them would be allowed to return to their homes in what is now the apartheid state of Israel .
OH btw Israel refused the peace proposal all 3 times. And don’t try to pretend a group armed with home made rockets is a threat to Israel, seriously the joke is getting old.
Wondering Jew
Firstly, while I disagree with you much of the time I do respect your honesty. In teh matter of Jews being kicked out of the West Bank in 1948, Richard described it as ethnic cleansing, which I dispute, because the action, while inapropriate, was not part of a pre-determined plan to purify the West Bank of Jews. On the other hand, Israel’s enthnic claeasing of 750,000 Palestinians was undoubtedly part of their pan to create a Jwish state with a Jewish majority.
I also take exception to comparing the removal of a few thousand Jews, with the removal of 750,000 Palestinians. Both acts are to be condemend but to compare them is as inapropriate as comparing any massacre to the Holocaust.
If schmucks like you advocate for the prosecution of Palestinians as terrorists for resisting a violent occupation, then surely prosecuting Zionist war criminals should agree with your [morally bankrupt world view].
wj
Isn’t that a “do as I say, not as I do” kind of statement by you after mentioning rumors of AIDS?
Does a single state result in equality?
“Does a single state result in equality? ”
No, but it does remove the last facade of of equality existing.
Well, Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians thus far prove that Israel will always subvert Palestinian governance, economy and territory. So the two-state “bantustan” approach will definitely not result in equality.
Does a single Witty result in honesty?
Shmuel, i have read theposts and you have less then 1% support in Israel.
The 1 state solution was tried by a Kurd named Saladin who won the wars and opposed a Kurdish state. Instead Saladin wanted a 1 state solution with the Arabs.
How did that work out for the Kurds?
Kurds cant vote, own land or be citizens in Syria.
All the Kurdish land in Syria was taken by the Syrian dictator in 1962 and renamed in Arab names.
200,000 Kurds gassed and murdered by the Iraqi Arabs during late 80s early 90s.
So if you want to follow the Kurds step, go live in an Arab country.
Jews do not want to be ruled by Arabs.
“Shmuel, i have read theposts and you have less then 1% support in Israel.
But most Israelis support the policies that will make a 1 state solution innevitable.
“All the Kurdish land in Syria was taken by the Syrian dictator in 1962 and renamed in Arab names.”
That counds exactly like Israel circa 1948. You probably didn’t realize the irony of bringing up that point.
“200,000 Kurds gassed and murdered by the Iraqi Arabs during late 80s early 90s.”
During wars and uprisings yes. And what’s more, the US provided the arms to do it, and turned an blind eye. Again, the same way the US provie Israel the arms to kill Palestinians, and turn a blind eye.
Are we seeing a pattern here?
“Jews do not want to be ruled by Arabs. ”
What yhou mean, is Zionists don’t want to be ruled by Arabs. Jews didn’t mind until 1948.
And the Jews that did mind, the Zionists assassinated, so.
“Jews do not want to be ruled by Arabs.”
Then make your way to the Goldenah Medina!
“What Jews want.” This, of course, is all that matters.
The fact that Arabs might not want to be ruled by Jews doesn’t matter at all. Nor does the inconvenient fact that the Arabs were living in Palestine before the Zionist Jews showed up with their plans to rule the Arabs and expel the ones who didn’t like it.
So let me get this straight, Nomi. A Kurd named Saladin got together with some Arab folk in the 12th century and tried to establish a single, secular democratic state with a good, solid, modern constitution and anachronistic political and human rights for all, and not eight hundred years later, some other Arab folk – in two separate countries! – stab his people in the back. Good thing we have someone with your deep knowledge of history and keen powers of analysis to warn us against making the same mistake as poor old Salah ad-Din. Who knows the dangers we could find ourselves in, in less than a thousand year’s time. Better to keep oppressing the Palestinians, threatening the Iranians, and pissing on the rest of the world. Much better strategy for long-term survival. If only Salah had done the same, there wouldn’t have been a problem in I/P, because we’d all be living in peace and prosperity under Kurdish rule.
Shmuel, go move to Gaza and see how long you have to live.
http://israelinsider.ning.com/profiles/blogs/hamas-tv-jews-are-enemies-of
Hamas TV. Jews are the enemies of Allah and should be killed.
“Shmuel, go move to Gaza and see how long you have to live.”
What, and risk being bombed or have white phosphorous dumped on you by Israel? Be starved by Israel and shot at for getting with 300 metres of the wall?
No thanks.
Amira Haas lived for many years in Gaza, quite safely.
“Amira Haas lived for many years in Gaza, quite safely.”
Irnoclaly whe was arrested in Israel for going into Gaza by Israel, not by Hamas.
Its so easy to debunk you nomi.
First of all you linked us “Palestinian Media Watch” a propaganda site that often mistranslates things on Palestinian TV to further your racist world view.
Second, the person on TV speaking wasen’t even from Hamas, he was from Saudi Arabia. Thus, not representative of Hamas’s position which is that:
“Our conflict is not with the Jews, our problem is with the occupation,” Haniyeh said.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html
Finally, the scholar in question is a known nutter, who actually called for Saudi Arabia to bomb Hezbollah. This guy is not representative of the opinion of the ordinary Arab who differentiates between Zionism (sahyown) and Jew (yahood). In fact, the Qur’an actually honors the Jews as people of the book (ahle Kitab).
Qur’an 2:62:
And those who believe, and those who are Christian, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and anyone else who believes in God and does good deeds, that they shall have their reward from their lord nor shall they grieve.
Thus any “Islamic scholar” who argues that the Jews are less is not taken seriously in real Islamic circles. In fact if you look at Islamic history, you’ll find that when Europe was persecuting Jews in pogroms, it was large parts of the Islamic world that was welcoming them into their universities, into their government, and even into their judiciary.
And, another potentially taboo question.
Does equality result in optimal self-governance?
If the world were one single state (no national states), would that yeild more self-governance than national states?
Is there such a thing as optimal self-governance?
Stop flaying about Witty.
Yes,
If the two peoples of Israel and Palestine regard themselves as fundamentally two distinct peoples, and the populations are in close parity, then a single state (without a dominant predominately civil party leadership) results in 51% dominating/even oppressing the 49%.
In contrast, the two-state solution with 10 and 20% minorities in each, that choose to remain there, then at most 20% are dominated.
That is MORE OPTIMAL than an ideological fantasy.
If you want to work for an approach that enhances the character and relationship of the two states, that strikes me as rational and progressive.
The single-state approach strikes me a regressive, and through the path of vague BDS more fascistic than progressive.
If both states have dual primary laws/constitutions that include both national right of return and equal due process under the law, then the 20% have equal rights.
Both Israel and Palestine need to work to get to that status.
But, BDS and contempt for the rights of peoples’ to self-define and self-govern, is not it.
But your zeal elsewhere, and actually succeed at helping people.
Its not contempt for “self-government”, its contempt for denial of self-government. I don’t get to treat you like a second-class citizen or worse by claiming I’m “self-governing”. Any nation should be the nation of all its citizens and treat all its inhabitants with basic human rights. Anything else is NOT “self-government”, its bigotry.
And why is it OK for 20% to be dominated and treated as second class Would you accept the same kind of treatment in the US? Can we all “self-govern” as non-Jews and treat you the way that Palestinians are treated within the green line, or in the occupied territories? Can I demolish your house and build some nice gentile-only condos there? Really? Is that what you want?
Yeah, the principle of one vote per person is really regressive, Witty, and David Duke is all for optimal self-governance too.
Not when it has campaign finance laws like the USA has. It’s then a plutocracy. Any doubt? Look at how the two political parties hold the hasbara line, and how the banking and insurance industries rule.
Richard Witty, even Czech and Slovakia couldn’t live with each other and broke up as 2 states.
The 2 state solution between Czech and Slovakia has worked out nicely.
The foundation of Palestinian ideology is the denial of Israel’s right to exist.
Its the main reason why they rejected peace from Barak and Olmert.
For all the anti Zionists on here who cant seem to understand what i’m talking about on here.
Let me make it simple for you.
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part7.html
“Be gone. Die anywhere you like, but don’t die here.” PATV Aug. 26, 2006
PA TV program on Jaffa (Tel Aviv):
“It is time for you [Israelis] to be gone. Live wherever you like, but don’t live among us. It is time for you to be gone. Die wherever you like, but don’t die among us. We have the past here. We have the present, the present and the future. So leave our country, our land, our sea, our wheat, our salt, our wounds. Everything. And leave the memories.”
These words of hate are the parting moments of yet another program on Palestinian Authority television calling for the destruction of Israel. The words, calling for the expulsion of every last Israeli from Israel, are spoken while the screen is showing Jaffa-Tel Aviv, Israelis and Israeli flags. Official PA TV has aired this twice in recent months.
The program about Jaffa opens with a revision of history, by casting the ancient Canaanites as Arabs. By doing this, the more than 3,000 years of Jewish history in the area are pre-dated by a fabricated Arab history. (The Arab Conquest actually took place in the seventh century of the Common Era.)
Jaffa, a part of Tel Aviv, is defined as a Palestinian city, and all of Israel’s coastal cities, Acre, Haifa, Caesarea, Ashdod, Ashkelon and Jaffa, are said to be situated in what is “known today as Palestine.” According to this PA program, Israel is already non-existent.
The final words of this television program are those of Israeli-Arab poet, Mahmoud Darwish, calling for the expulsion of every Israeli: “Die wherever you like, but don’t die among us.”
“Jaffa, a part of Tel Aviv, is defined as a Palestinian city, and all of Israel’s coastal cities, Acre, Haifa, Caesarea, Ashdod, Ashkelon and Jaffa, are said to be situated in what is “known today as Palestine.” According to this PA program, Israel is already non-existent.”
Yes they were Palestinian cities and Jaffa was the largest and bussiest. It was stolen from the Palestinians as they were driven from their homes.
Israel has never paid compensatnio or allwed the residents to return, so it’s not surprising that the Palestinians don;t recognize these as Israeli towns.
“The final words of this television program are those of Israeli-Arab poet, Mahmoud Darwish, calling for the expulsion of every Israeli”
Shoudl we follow that up with statements by Israeli Rabbis who called for the extermination of Palestinians?
THOSE WHO PASS FLEETING WORDS
0 those who pass between fleeting words carry your names, and be gone
Rid our time of yours, and be gone
Steal what you will from the blueness of the sea and the sand of memory
Take what pictures you will, so that you understand That which you never will:
How a stone from our land builds the ceiling of our sky.
0 those who pass between fleeting words
From you the sword–from us the blood
From you steel and fire–from us our flesh
From you Yet another tank–from us atones
From you tear gas–from us rain
above us, as above you, are sky and air
So take your share of our blood–and be gone
GO to a dancing party–and be gone
As for us, we have to water the martyrs’ flowers
As for us, we have to live as we see fit.
So leave our country
Our land, our sea
Our wheat, our salt, our wounds
Everything, and leave
The memories of memory
those who pass between fleeting words!
–Mahmood Darwish, written in March 1988, during the first intifada
And here is a remembrance of Darwish written by an Israeli Jewish poet, Haim Gouri.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1011812.html
And an interview with Darwish in Haaretz in 2007:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/881350.html
Sorry, missed the second stanza:
Those Who Pass Between Fleeting Words
O those who pass between fleeting words
Carry your names, and be gone
Rid our time of your hours, and be gone
Steal what you will from the blueness of the sea and the sand of memory
Take what pictures you will, so that you understand
That which you never will:
How a stone from our land builds the ceiling of our sky.
O those who pass between fleeting words
From you the sword – from us the blood, From you steel and fire .. from us
our flesh From you yet another tank — from us stones,
From you tear gas .. from us rain
Above us, as above you, are sky and air
So take your share of our blood — and be gone
Go to a dancing party — and be gone
As for us, we have to water the martyrs› flowers
As for us, we have to live as we will.
O those who pass between fleeting words
Pile your illusions in a deserted pit, and be gone
Return the hand of time to the law of the golden calf
Or to the time of the revolver›s music!
For we have that which does not please you here, so be gone
And we have what you lack: a bleeding homeland of a bleeding people
A homeland fit for oblivion or memory
O those who pass between fleeting words
It is time for you to be gone
Live wherever you like, but do not live among us
It is time for you to be gone
Die wherever you like, but do not die among us
For we have work to do in our land
We have the past here, we have the first cry of life
We have the present, the present and the future
We have this world here, and the hereafter
So leave our country, our land, our sea, our wheat, our salt, our wounds
Everything, and leave the memories of memory
O those who pass between fleeting words!
Mahmoud Darwish, 1988
I shudder to think what you would do with Shakespeare.
“The foundation of Palestinian ideology is the denial of Israel’s right to exist.”
My Gosh, who could have forseen that! Amazing what land-stealing and murder does to people. Why don’t they just all form string quartets, instead?
And, well, I don’t know, but it is all right to get a little irritated with Zionist solutions which require turning back time?
Whats being said in the Palestinian media.
This is why Ben Ami realizes the insanity of a 1 state solution.
Look people, its harder to be more left then Ben Ami, but you people are proving me wrong.
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part7.html
“All of Israel is Palestine”
Denying Israel’s Right to Exist and Anticipating its Destruction
“All of Israel is Palestine”
That is actually correct. Israel was always defined territory inside Palestine.
Read some history. It might alleviate your profound ignorance.
Actually, that’s what’s being said in the Israeli media. Check the source of your link. Its an Israeli media propaganda group that is known for erroneous translations. Is that what’s happened here? I don’t know. But the source is very suspect.
I bet if we looked in the Israeli media we’d also find other instances where Israeli Jews are saying similar hateful things. Does that mean that all Israeli Jews are hateful people that cannot be treated like other human beings, or does your racist condemnation of all Palestinians because of the alleged statements of some become a hypocritical pass on your part when it comes to Jews. After all, if you are going to condemn a whole religious, cultural, or ethnic group because of the hatefulness of individuals, then why not admit that you are no different from the people you quote (or misquote) and condemn.
Palestinian Media Watch (PMW) just like MEMRI, is a propaganda outfit.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker
The sickening part is that US tax payers subsidize these groups. Its also a tax deductible to donate to them.
“To anyone who reads Arabic newspapers regularly, it should be obvious that the items highlighted by Memri are those that suit its agenda and are not representative of the newspapers’ content as a whole.
The way to refute Memri or any other site is not merely to call them propaganda. First you can discredit the person who is being quoted as not being representative of the wider Palestinian, Arab or Islamic consensus. Second you can discredit the translation by learning Arabic and translating more accurately.
As far as cherry-picking negative quotations- that is a habit that is regularly indulged in on this web site as well. Which means that this web site, in particular the comments section, is as propagandistic as Memri.
WJ, these groups have been caught lying! Rather overtly.
Chaos – please cite the cases in which they were caught lying. It is not enough to assert it.
There are many interviews and news items that I’ve seen on Memri that are not available to me on any other source. I cannot toss them out without a replacement. Do you have any other suggested source that translates Arab or Farsi television interviews that you find fairer?
You could do what I’m doing and learn Arabic yourself.
has anybody else noticed that Nomi the novice went to get reinforcements?
I guess someone took it seriously when a poster here threatened to confiscate Nomi’s copy of hasbara talking points.
They supplied here with links.
Link on, Nomi, we’re riveted.
Nomi998 of the Hungarian violin: ♫ ♫ ♫
Notice how no one can respond to my comments cause they know i’m right
.
Nothing will change for the Palestinians, because its not about their state, its about destroying Israel. The Pals live in bad conditions, because their leaders keep them in it. Its not in the Palestinian leaders best interest to normalize life for their people. If they did, there would be no need for them.
No one is responding to your comments for the reason Shmuel laid out…and we’ve covered your areas of comment for months before you knew this site existed. In other words, darling, you bore us.
No one is responding, excpet me, because your statements amoutn to insisting the earth is flat. The world has moved on and you’re stuck with deacde old talking points. Even Witty think you’re off the chart.
Nomi, did you go back and read all the comments you posted yesterday when you took your daily troll through Mondoweiss? They were all responded to, and your lies and distortions were corrected for the record. I’m sure the same will happen today, because Mondoweiss is interested in truth, and as such your hasbara won’t be allowed to have the last word.
Now, you may stick around and take your medicine, or you may go troll somewhere else. I’m sure there are many other sites you have on your list. Your medicine will be waiting for you when you get back.
I’m always curious: Are you being paid for your work, or is it a hobby?
Wait a minute. Are you getting college credit for this?:
HIS 100 (3 credits) Communication of Persuasion – Israel Advocacy
Hasbara is the Hebrew word often used to officially describe or explain the government of Israel’s policies abroad. This course in Israel advocacy will analyze the history and subtleties of Israel’s diplomacy. Often lamented by viewers of the BBC, CNN, or other media outlets, Israel’s Hasbara has undergone a maturation of sorts and politicians and government ministers are looking to increase the training of students to promote Israel’s cause in an effective and clear manner on a local level of influence. Through reviewing the history of modern Zionism and studying current trends in Middle East, students will gain a greater insight to the complex and challenging war of words. Defending Israel on a college campus isn’t always easy but it is quite necessary. In this course, students will learn the techniques of debating and analyzing the nuances of anti-Israel arguments to properly fight back stereotypes and prejudices. Using current events and up to date arguments from US and UK college campuses, students will use their knowledge and skills to debate and respond to internet talk-back sites, role play TV interviews with anti-Israel persons, and meet with professional representatives of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Israeli army. Weekly topics to address include: the Separation Fence vs. Apartheid Wall, Equality in Israel for the sexes, Israel as Aggressor, Colonial state, or Jewish safe haven, Israel and the UN – a paradox, Refugees and immigrants, Anti-Semitism as Anti-Israel and more.
http://academics.ajula.edu/Content/ContentUnit.asp?CID=1733&u=6822&t=0
Great link, Dan!
====================
I don’t think he is off the charts when implying or stating directly that many pro-Palestinians and solidarity, secretly or overtly desire Israel’s demise.
We disagree with generalization. I believe that most Palestinians desire reconciliation, and the fanatics distort the desire of Palestinians.
We choose different approaches to identify and appeal to those that can see reason and work for mutual aid.
I don’t think she is off the charts when implying or stating directly that many pro-Israel and Zionists, secretly or overtly desire the Palestinians’ demise.
We disagree with generalization. I believe that most Jews desire reconciliation, and the fanatics distort the desire of most Jews.
OR
I don’t think he is off the charts when implying or stating directly that many pro-Palestinians and solidarity, secretly or overtly desire Israel’s demise.
In other words, Palestinians (and others) gathered in groups working collectively for their betterment are at best dangerous to Israel, at worst terrorists. Individually, most are ok. So, they ought to abstain from groupings. Not coincidentally, this is the easiest way for Israel to manage them and achieve its goals going forward.
Incidentally, when Jews gather together in solidarity for Israel it is the greatest thing on earth, to be recognized and commended, Jewish self-determination by Jews, for Jews, Jewish self-governance, an absolute.
Double standards anyone? Supremacism?
“secretly or overtly desire Israel’s demise.”
It depends on what you mean. Some people think that the whole area should be a secular democracy, with equal rights for all–that is “wishing for the demise of Israel” in the sense of wishing for the demise of Israel as an apartheid-like state. Whether this is a practical goal or not is debatable. I’d be in favor of it, long term, but suspect that in the short term the best way to go is the two state solution, if it were close to what was discussed at Taba. Then, with a buildup of trust, maybe people would see unification as good for both sides–plenty of Jews would want to live in the West Bank and plenty of Arabs would like to live where their homes used to be. Right now a two state solution seems as distant as one state.
I’ve also bumped into lefties who fit your stereotype of the far left, who seem to enjoy revenge fantasies and who defend Palestinian terrorism of all sorts as legitimate self defense. This attitude is childish at best. There’s zero chance of these people having influence in the US, I think, unless we undergo some huge cataclysm that would make the I/P conflict the least of our worries.
I’ve run into plenty of “liberal Zionists” who seem more interested in reflexively defending Israel from accurate criticism that hurts their feelings. This is as deplorable as someone defending suicide bombing. And unfortunately it is an extremely common attitude, one which dominates our culture.
You obviously haven’t noticed that people are mocking all your comments because they are pathetically ridiculous.
The intellectual decline of Israel is obviously worse than previously reported.
The Arab governments who perpetuate the incitement of Muslims against Jews, with conspiracy theories that Jews are secretly behind every incident that negatively affects them. This is a pitiful self-serving attempt to deflect blame from their pathetic society.
Yes Nomi,
When US made bombs are dropped on you from US made jets, piloted by ISraeli pilots, then it’s a reasonable conclusion that Israel is behind the pain.
And speaking of a pathetic society, there are more Israeli’s leaving Israle than there are arriving and those that are leaving are the skilled workers. Were it not for US money, Israel would be a 3rd world country.
hey Nomi, did you know jews were behind the bombing of USS liberty?
And then there was also the Lavon affair. Just one glaring example of Zionist Jews using terror to false flag against Jews in other countries. Because you don’t have to pay them as much to emigrate when they’re framed for crimes you committed!
Every single Jew in the parts of the Mandate seized by the Arabs was expelled from their homes. No exceptions. They even dynamited the entire ancient Jewish quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem in an attempt to wipe out the history of Jewish residence there. They also made it illegal for a Jew to live in the areas of the former Mandate that they controlled, including the West Bank, Gaza and Jordan.
It was probably the most thorough and well documented ethnic cleansing in modern times.
Christ, where is Mooser when we need him. Basically, Nomi998, STFU. You’re blowing smoke out your ass.
http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/a-land-without-a-people.html
Jeez, guys, it’s not all Honda VTRs and Hammond Organs around here at Moosehall! A living I have to earn once in a while. My wife I have to spend time with.
As if you needed me to come up with with cogent, factual and well linked replies to Hasbara! I just provide a little much-needed persiflage once in a while, and I’m hilarious when the subject is intermarriage.
That Lawrence of Cyberia link is excellent, and it tells the story pretty plain. Just don’t skip the typewritten list from the British Colonial Police (?) detailing how the Zionists simply shelled and mortared the “Arabs” out of whole quarters of the city.
No Jews were expelled from their homes.
And it is Israel that is attempt ingto wipe out the history of palestinian residence there.
There were no lawn makingit illegal for Jews to live in the areas of the former Mandate that they controlled.
It is not documented at all because ti never happened, which explain why you haven’t even tried to post a link.
There is currently a law in the West Bank that imposes the death penalty on any Palestinian that sells land to a Jew.
It came up in a Haaretz article a year ago describing the contreversy around that law being prosecuted summarily rather than through judiciary.
The judiciary has not enforced it in years, but it is still on the books.
Shingo- Are you denying that there were Jews in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem that were expelled? Are you denying that there were Jews in Gush Etzion who were killed in cold blood or expelled?
I am not denying Jews were expelled from the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, but it was not part of a cmapaing to rid the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem or Jews.
The so called “suffering of the Palestinian people”. They chose the path they are on when they launched their terrorist campaign. They must walk down that path. Israel`s hands are clean, all it has done it protect its people from the murderers who hide in amongst their own civilian population.
Israel launched a massive terorist cmapaign leading up to 1948. You may have heard of the Irgun and the Stern gangs? They blew up hotels and murdered British coldiers, leaving they bodies boobie trapped.
The leaders fo those gangs were honored by being elected to lead the ecountry. Tzipi Livni’s dad was one of them and her career has benefited.
You see Nomi, Israel stands as role model to terrorism. It’s existence proves that terrorism works. IDF solderis who go home at night or weekends hide amongst their own civilian population too. Anothe rtrick the Palestinians have learned from Israel.
Please read the history.
There was a wave of Arab terror on Zionist settlers from 1936-1939, which is when the Irgun and Stern Gang came into any relevance.
In WW2, the then leader (contested) of the Palestinians (the mufti) was exiled by the British for anti-British activities and collaboration with the nazis.
Following WW2, a three-way civil war emerged, between Palestinian and pan-Arabs, Great Britain and Zionists. (There were multiple factions within each that also violently differed with each other.)
The Irgun and Stern Gang terror was real, and was directed against Great Britain as occupier (on the way out) and Arab factions and civilians periodically.
The accusations of ethnic cleansing as Zionist permanent agenda is very questionable. There were certainly some (a few thousand) that regarded it as an agenda of theirs. The most compelling analysis that I’ve read is that the majority of ethnic cleansing was during the 1947 civil war, and 1948 formal war.
The effort for ethnic cleansing was ALSO attempted of Jews in 1920, 1929, 1936-39, 1947-8, and was “successfully” completed in Hebron, Safed, and partially in Jerusalem by Palestinians. (The Jewish population of Hebron in 1948 was 0, after 2000 years of prominent Jewish presence. THAT is ethnic cleansing.)
The reality though is that Israel is 20% Arab, while prior to the Israeli settlement project (mostly illegal, not entirely), the Jewish population of the West Bank and Jerusalem was maybe 2000, all in Jerusalem (except for the surreptitious practioners that are outwardly Muslim).
Its a hot word. Genocide, ethnic cleansing. “We are victims only.” True, and not true.
Reform is needed, NOT revolution.
“There were certainly some (a few thousand) that regarded it as an agenda of theirs. The most compelling analysis that I’ve read is that the majority of ethnic cleansing was during the 1947 civil war, and 1948 formal war.”
If that “few thousand” includes the leadership, like Ben Gurion, then yes. I don’t know what the rank and file Zionists thought.
And yes, both sides practiced ethnic cleansing in 1948. Both sides committed massacres. What was long kept a secret in the West was the fact that the Israeli side were guilty of this and on a systematic basis, not limited to what Irgun and the Stern Gang did. I mentioned Sharon’s massacre once (referring to Kibya in 1953) and from her comment, which didn’t make sense to me at the time, I later figured out she thought I meant Deir Yassin, because that’s the only massacre she knew about. It was the only one discussed in the West. What’s interesting about this is that the lie was so transparent–it should never have taken decades for Americans to find out the truth .
” I mentioned Sharon’s massacre once (referring to Kibya in 1953) and from her comment, ”
I left out a phrase–I was talking to a friend who’d seen Tom Segev’s book “One Palestine, Complete” on my shelves and started saying some classically ignorant pro-Israeli remarks. The conversation was mutually confusing, because I didn’t realize at first how little she knew–she was presenting herself as well-read, but it must have been all of the standard pro-Israeli stuff that people used to accept without question. She’d also seen Michener’s novel “The Source” on my shelf, which has some truly absurd chapters on the I/P conflict and she praised it.
Please stop re-wrtiing history.
There was no wave of Arab terror on Zionist settlers from 1936-1939. There were mutual attacks on each other. The Irgun and Stern Gang existed not becasue of so called Arab terror, but becasue of Zionist goals of removing the Palestinains and achiving a Jewish majority.
The mufti was appointed by the British for anti-British activities and collaboration with the nazis.
There were 2 wrs that emerged post WWII. The Zionists against the Palestinians to drive then our and against the British, because the British were policing the territory.
The facts of ethnic cleansing as Zionist permanent agenda is beyond question. There are literlaly hundreds fo quotes from Zionists speaking openly about how such plans were necessary to achieve a Jewish state. What you deliberately ignore is that the thousand that regarded it as an agenda were the most influential, incliudign Ben Gurion.
The so called ethnic cleasing of Hebron wasn’t even perpetrated by the Palestinians, but by the British. The Jewish population of Hebron was only a few hundred anyway, and nothing like the 750,000 that Israel perpetrated in 1948.
Reform is often only realised after revolution.
Donald,
Yes, this is a problem I have noticed too. Where does one start, when there is so little real knowledge and a lot of misinformation. I know where my journey started and where it lead but how does one lead others there without overwhelming them with information, or without leaving out a step and losing them along the way?
Nomi: Israel`s hands are clean, all it has done it protect its people from the murderers who hide in amongst their own civilian population.
Israel’s hands are clean?? I think Richard Goldstone might vehemently disagree. Are you denying that the Dahiya Doctrine was invoked in Operation Cast Lead?
There were anti-Jewish riots in Hebron in 1929, and about 69 Jews were massacred. This following some rather provocative demonstrations by Zionists in Jerusalem laying claim to a Muslim holy place. The Jewish population of Hebron at the time was maybe 700. Some 20 Palestinian Arab families opened up their homes to shelter the Jews from the mob and over 400 of them took that shelter, the incident has often been cited as an example of the unremitting hatred of Palestinians for Jews. Later, the British evacuated the Jews from Hebron.
Lynn 117- “the rather provocative demonstrations by Zionists in Jerusalem laying claim to a Muslim holy place” was a demonstration by the Kotel (aka the Western Wall aka the Wailing Wall) when the “Zionists” put up a mechitza (partition) between the men and the women to enable prayers on Yom Kippur. It is a Muslim holy place to the extent that Muhammad in his “dream” night journey tied his donkey there.
Actually, WJ, the provocative incident was the raising of the Zionist flag at the Mosque of Omar. (The incident you are referring to happened nearly a year before the riots, in September 1928. )
Also, the number of dead in the Jerusalem rioting was roughly equally distributed between Arabs and Jews, yet it is continually referred to by Zionists as if it was merely an incident of Arabs rioting and Jews being the perennial victims.
tree- You are correct. The incident I mentioned happened the previous September. But the incident you cite seems to be fictitious.
On 15 August 1929, several hundred members of Joseph Klausner’s Committee for the Western Wall, among them members of Vladimir Jabotinsky’s Revisionist Zionism movement Betar youth organisation, under the leadership of Jeremiah Halpern, assembled at the Western Wall in Jerusalem shouting “the Wall is ours”.[6] They raised the Jewish national flag and sang the ballad of yearning for freedom and self-determination, “Hatikvah” (”The Hope”), which is the Israeli national anthem.
Of course, my source is Wikipedia, which is known (on this site) for being biased. But please if the incident you reported as the provocation is real, please cite some other site.
Your incident cited from Wikipedia (with Segev’s “One Palestine Complete” as source) is the same as the incident I referred to, although I used Vincent Sheean’s “Personal History” as a source. Sheean was an eyewitness to what happened during that fateful August. He was a reporter who was originally contracted by the Zionists to report on their efforts in Palestine and was very sympathetic to their cause, but, around the time of the tension, became disillusioned with the Zionists.
My error was in using his description of the Mosque of Omar, which was, especially in the past, often used to describe the Dome of the Rock, but is an incorrect term, as the Mosque of Omar is at a different location, opposite the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
Myself, I find Wikipedia entries somewhat spotty. Some are pure hasbara, some are very accurate to the history I have heard, some are in between. I’d rate that particular entry as fairly accurate, but just slightly biased towards the Zionist version of events.
tree- Both the Mosque of Omar and the Dome of the Rock are up on what Jews call the Temple Mount (and what Muslims call Haram-el-Sharif). The Kotel (Western Wall) is a retaining wall of the mount and is topographically lower than the Temple Mount, some 20 to 40 feet lower. The Church of the Holy Sephulcre is not in the area (meaning that it is about half a kilometer away.) My understanding of the episode is that the Jews at the Wall started dancing and waving the flag. I guess they might have placed the flag high up on the wall and that would be raising the flag (as written in the article) rather than waving the flag.
No, WJ, the Mosque of Omar is opposite the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The Al-Aqsa Mosque is part of the Noble Sanctuary, but the Mosque of Omar is not.
And the Western, or Wailing Wall, was considered part of the Noble Sanctuary, which was administered for centuries as a a Muslim waqf.
My understanding from reading both Segev and Sheean on the incidents that lead up to the rioting is that they were mostly political in nature, the clash of Zionists and Palestinians with competing political desires, and the religious aspect of it was merely provided a flashpoint for the mounting anger. According to Segev, the Zionists made political speeches at the rally as well as waving the flag. It was not merely a religious observance. And the riots that followed within the week were not really religious in nature but were more a result of political tensions caused by the friction between the interests of the native Palestinians and the Zionist project inserted into their midst. It was not a simple case of religious persecution of Jews, which is what the Zionist narrative attempts to make it out to be.
“”Israel`s hands are clean..”" you are not paying attention my friend… spreading ignorance here won’t work…
We can show sympathy to Palestinians who were hurt because they were victims of their own leadership.
That’s like arguing that the residents of Sderot are avictims of their own leadership.
Tzipi Livni said that a logn ceasfire was not in Israel’s strategic interests, so she was effectivley saying that Israe’s strategic interests are more imporatant that the residents of Sderot.
Yes, keep blaming the victims Nomi.
Its getting really old.
we’ll have to show sympathy to you given how you’re a victim of your leadership as well…. i hope it isn’t contagious, although witty seems to have it too…
Question for Palestinians?
Can you marry a non-muslim and live safely in your town?
Can homosexuals freely walk around in your town?
Can you freely walk around and protest suicide bombings in your town?
Can an Arab woman walk around in a swimsuit without fear in your town?
The list goes on and on.
Sorry left wing Jews, we do not want a 1 state solution.
We are not that insane.
“Can you marry a non-muslim and live safely in your town?”
Is Israel runnign adds warnign against Israeli Jews doing the same thing?
“Can homosexuals freely walk around in your town?”
Can they in Israel? No.
“Can you freely walk around and protest suicide bombings in your town?”
Israel protesters get shot in Israel and the West Bank.
“Can an Arab woman walk around in a swimsuit without fear in your town?”
Can an ornthodox Jewsish woman do so in an orthodox Jewish town on the Sabbath?
Sorry you see Nomi, Jews and Palestinians are no so different after all.
MRW,
Myth Of The Palestinian People
http://middleeastfacts.com/Articles/myth-of-the-palestinian-people.php
That has all been debunked by the Zionist founders:
Soon after the first Zionist Congress in 1897, Basel (Switzerland), a Zionist delegation was sent to Palestine for a fact finding mission and to explore the viability of settling Palestine with European Jewry. The delegation replied back from Palestine with a cable:
“The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man.” (Iron Wall, p. 3)
“Whatever became of the slogan: A people without a land returns to land without a people? The simple truth was that Palestine was not an empty land, and the Jews were only a small minority of its population. In the days of the empire building, the Western powers had dismissed natives as an inconsequential factor in determining whether or not to settle a territory with immigrants. Even after the [1st] world war, the concept of self-determination . . . . was still reserved exclusively for the developed world.” (Michael Bar-Zohar, p. 45-46)
In 1891 Ahad Ha’Am opened many Jewish eyes to the fact the Palestine was not empty, but populated with its indigenous people when he wrote:
“We abroad are used to believe the Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed ….. But in truth that is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains …. are not cultivated.” (Righteous Victims, p. 42)
Israel Zangwill, who had visited Palestine in 1897 and came face-to-face with the demographic reality. He stated in 1905 in a speech to a Zionist group in Manchester that:
“Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ….. [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7- 10, and Righteous Victims, p. 140)
And so on…
Listen, sweetheart, go sell stupid someplace else. The people on this board have degrees up the ying-yang, and probably read more in a day than you read in a year.
Shingo, you say No Jews were expelled from their homes.
Every Jew in Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem was expelled from their holmes in 48.
Thats how it became Juderein, which is what the Arabs want for Israel today.
How many Jews live in Jordan?
Can you answer that mr Genius?
“Every Jew in Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem was expelled from their holmes in 48.”
No they weren’t, but 750,000 Arabs were expelled from their home.
“How many Jews live in Jordan?”
How many Jordanians live in Israel? 25,000 Jews live happily in Iran.
Shingo,
Jews were ethnically cleansed from the West Bank.
Its important to get your facts straight if you are to argue.
Richard,
Jews control the West Bank, so no, there was no ethnic cleansing of Jews from the West Bank.
It’s important you get your logic stringht if you are to argue.
Shingo,
Richard’s got a point here. As best as I can figure the numbers, somewhere between 2500 and 12,000 Jews left the area that came under Jordanian control after the 1948 war. There were about 2000 or so Jews who lived in East Jerusalem at the time. Most Jews lived in West Jerusalem at the time of the war. There were also an unknown (by me) number that lived in other parts of what became known as the West Bank. Since the census report that accompanied the Partition Plan mentioned that there were only 10,000 Jews total living in the area that was to become the Arab State, and that Israel took some of that land in the war, its highly doubtful that the numbers are any higher than 12,000 and are probably much lower. And of course, this is in comparison to 750,000 or so Palestinians who were expelled or forced to flee. But Richard is technically right on this point. Jews who were forced to leave their homes were enabled to return in 1967. Palestinians still have not been allowed to return.
Tree,
I respect your argument, however, weare comparing the actions of Palestinians during war compared to the actioning of a plan that the Zionists had in place for over 50 years. The Palestinians did not drive out the Jewish inhabitants of East Jerusalem to achieve a pure Palestinian region, but rather, targetting Jews who they pereceived as immigrants who’s goal it was to remove Arabs.
We are comparing the actions of Palestinians during war compared to the actioning of a plan that the Zionists had in place for over 50 years. The Palestinians did not drive out the Jewish inhabitants of East Jerusalem to achieve a pure Palestinian region, but rather, targeting Jews who they perceived as immigrants who’s goal it was to remove Arabs.
Incredibly important distinction. The Zionist action was premeditated. The Arab action was a reaction to the Zionist action.
This point is conveniently ignored by Zionists over and over and over again. We’ve seen it most recently with the Gaza massacre. Was the overwhelming use of military force justified to deter the rocket attacks? Wrong question. The use of force was premeditated and didn’t hinge on whether or not there were any rocket attacks. It was going to be carried out regardless, with rocket attacks used as an excuse.
If rocket attacks are needed to warrant an Israeli action, then rocket attacks will be generated by provocation or carried out by the Israelis themselves. This cannot be emphasized enough. Zionist and Israeli violence, from its earliest days, has almost always been entirely premeditated, with specific goals in mind. Arabs have almost always been reacting to Zionist/Israeli violence. And then the sequence of events gets turned around for public consumption. Even a cursory review of the history of the conflict makes this abundantly clear.
And I respect yours. And I am also aware that the Samaritans in the West Bank were never forced to leave their homes there.
http://wwrn.org/article.php?idd=31706
How many Jews live in Brooklyn Nomi…lol Answer that genius…lol
There were a few Samaritans who survived the purges and force conversions by the Jewish regime of 2000 years ago, also the Christian one that followed. Apparently, they lived fairly happily under the Islamic reigns.
As I understand it, the Israelis officially confiscated the property (land, furniture, tools, businesses) of the Palestinian Arabs they’d just forced out, and turned it over for Jewish-only use. The Jordanian government took custody of the property of the Jews they evacuated, but never officially changed its ownership pending the return of the property owners, which was waiting on return of the Palestinian refugees.
I’m going to push the “report abuse” button on old nomi. Anyone care to join me? I hate to use it, because I value free speech oh so much, and I always think of all the Israeli-centric sites that ban commenters from trying to impart some truth to the conversation – surely, I don’t want to become like them. But there’s obviously no attempt to engage in the conversation here. It’s intentionally disruptive.
Dan Kelly, your afraid of a debate. That is the problem.
The left are like Arab dictators. Anyone that challenges them, they bar them.
Actually, Arab dictators are suported by the US, who also happen to be supporting Israel.
That tells you a lot about Israel.
and the usa…..
lol. I’m “the left.” Guess I was confused about myself when I voted for Ron Paul.
Incidentally nomi, although I did push the abuse button and reported you, I then went back and pushed it again and retracted my report. I had said that your comment didn’t fit into the parameters of the thread, but in reading it again, it did. That said, don’t insult anyone’s intelligence by depending you’re here for “debate.” You are here to disrupt, and that’s all.
As for “debate,” that’s also essentially a meaningless endeavor. How about conversation? That requires listening to the other side, internalizing what they say, being thoughtful. Are you capable?
Geez, I feel like Richard Witty after that litany.
Nomi, you’re yet another hasbara-bot, an obvious newbie to Mondo, and it’s like you dropped onto the site from the trackback on JewPI . . . we’ve seen your type come and go over the last few years.
You’re truly out of your depth on this site. On a single post, you’ve spewed a dozen venom-filled Zionist talking points that may have worked way back when George W Bush had a 90 percent approval rating in Israel and the “Clean Break” neo-cons had taken control of America’s military might.
So you come in, spew hasbara that fools no one, you provide links to hasbara-log rolling sites that appear to have been set up for the sole purpose of Nabka-denial, and you get repeatedly shouted down by some high-information, highly intelligent progressive thinking people.
You’re not going to get any satisfaction here.
Shingo, which Arab dictators are supporting Israel?
Please tell me one?
Wrong question Nomi, it should be – Nomi, tell me one “Arab dictator” that does not support Israel…LOL Where did this mentally deranged fellow come from? hehe
“Shingo, which Arab dictators are supporting Israel?”
You have the the wrong way around. It is Israel that supports Arba dicatators eg. Egypt.
Shingo, Iran isn’t an Arab country.
The Jews were treated good in Iran when the Shah was in power.
But since the Shah was overthrown in 79, the majority of Jews have left Iran.
It must suck to lose all those rent-seeking opportunities.
You are so right, America Fust-Cless! Lassies Fair Capatilism is the root of all evil! Socialism for all, and now that Obama is President we may well get it.
I’m with you, Fusty.
Jeez, talk about double standards!
About 30,000 Jews live in Iran now and have no desire to leave. Things aren’t perfect, but it’s their homeland, and they live free from oppression.
They are hoping that Israel doesn’t bomb Iran, or drive the U.S. to do so.
Based on the regard the Zionist movement had for the majority of Jews in Europe during WWII, I would be worried if I were them.
In one of Tehran’s six remaining kosher butcher’s shops, everyone has relatives in Israel.
In between chopping up meat, butcher Hersel Gabriel tells me how he expected problems when he came back from Israel, but in fact the immigration officer didn’t say anything to him.
“Whatever they say abroad is lies – we are comfortable in Iran – if you’re not political and don’t bother them then they won’t bother you,” he explains.
His customer, middle-aged housewife Giti agrees, saying she can easily talk to her two sons in Tel Aviv on the telephone and visit them.
“It’s not a problem coming and going; I went to Israel once through Turkey and once through Cyprus and it was not problem at all,” she says.
Gone are the early days of the Iranian revolution when Jews – and many Muslims – found it hard to get passports to travel abroad.
“In the last five years the government has allowed Iranian Jews to go to Israel freely, meet their families and when they come back they face no problems,” says Mr Mohtamed.
He says there is also a way for Iranian Jews who emigrated to Israel decades ago to return to Iran and see their families.
“They can now go to the Iranian consul general in Istanbul and get Iranian identity documents and freely come to Iran,” he says.
The exodus of Jews from Iran seems to have slowed down – the first wave was in the 1950s and the second was in the wake of the Iranian Revolution.
Those Jews who remain in Iran seem to have made a conscious decision to stay put.
“We are Iranian and we have been living in Iran for more than 3,000 years,” says the Jewish hospital director Ciamak Morsathegh.
“I am not going to leave – I will stay in Iran under any conditions,” he declares.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5367892.stm
Dan Kelly- The Jews in Iran are “free from oppression”. And this you base on what? One article in the BBC? Recently Roger Cohen visited Iran and reported a similar story. But then it was revealed that he was accompanied by a government appointed guide who served as his translator. No possibility for distortion there, hey?
There were 80,000 Jews in Iran before the revolution and 25,000 Jews there today. They certainly should be welcome to stay for there were Jews in Iran a thousand years before Islam was even born. But please do not ask us to swallow Iranian propaganda about how good it is there for them. They are a hostage population and their responses to a reporter should be suspect.
“The Jews in Iran are “free from oppression”.”
If they were oppressed, they would have taken the cash incentive to migrate to Israel. What other explanation do you have?
How about statements from the Irnanian Jews that they are well treated?
That cash incentive being offered in prior years, incidentally, is why the number of Iranian Jews dropped precipitously after the Western-backed Israel-friendly shah was toppled.
How about statements from the Irnanian Jews that they are well treated?
They are ignored, because they don’t serve the goals of Zionism.
Or, we are told of “government appointed guides” and other such things, in an attempt to make it out to be one big Iranian conspiracy.
There are other reports of the desire of Iranian Jews to remain in their homeland, Iran. I don’t know if WJ would believe them either, unless they came directly from the Isreli government or something.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/881714.html
Nomi, why don’t you ask the Jews who are living in Tehran while they are Iranian chanting their early morning selichot prayers? There are about 25,000 in Iran who do not feel they are threatened. Ayatollah Khomeini years ago made a distinction between Zionism and the Jewish religion.
Perhaps you should take the advice of Dr Moresadiq (Iranian Jewish community) who said – “There can be no doubt about the reality of the holocaust or Hitler’s racism. But these facts do not allow anyone to take their revenge on others. Palestinians should not pay the price of the crimes of Hitler.”
Nomi,
Your attacks are on religon, not land, so the fact that Iran is not an Arab country is irrelevant.
The Jews were always treated well in Iran. IN fact, the 25,000 that live there today refuse to leave, in spite of bribes by Israel to move to Israel.
The majoroity of those that left did so during the 1979 Revolution, but the rest remained.
v, tell me the Arab dictator that supports Israel.
Just name one.
Jews are barred from living in Jordan.
The State controlled Egyptian media looks like Der Stumer against Israel.
http://www.adl.org/egyptian_media/old_egyptian_media_print.asp
Nomi unfortunately you are hooked on simplistic pap from hasbara tanks, the support or non-support for Israel is not simply the sentiment of the people of a country (also, why should the people of these countries support what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, not even I support it, nor should anyone with one moral fiber in their body). The leadership of the countries is totally antithetical to the people of the countries – what Jordan does in its leadership is grovel at any overture of Western hegemony, so does Egypt, and that includes support for Israel. Saudi Arabia supports the supremacy of Israel because it is a client state of the West, so does Kuwait and actually it is quite a large list – they do not go by the sentiment of their people. They allow their peoples views because they are weak, being mere puppets of other power, yet clandestinely follow the “party line.” Once again, you are two simplistic – but that is what is required of individuals that swallow spurious propaganda.
If you want to talk about Jordan this process of the support of Israel while the people rage against it goes way way back. It can be seen by King Hussein who visited Golda in the night to warn her that an attack was pending.
Jews are NOT barred from living in Jordan. You aren’t listening and aren’t reading.
http://thehasbarabuster.blogspot.com/2009/08/another-lie-dershowitz-told-you.html
Hosni Mubarak supports Israel.
King Abdul Aziz supports Israel.
King Abdullah supports Israel.
Wow.. thats like all of Israels neighbors except Lebanon and Syria….
Oh and btw Syria is trying to normalize relations with Israel. The only thing Syria wants in return is a return of territory Israel stole from them.
In fact when Israel gave back territory to Egypt, it got peace with Egypt. When Israel promised to stop bombing Jordan, it got peace from Jordan. Wow.. amazing how a few concessions can go so far.
In addition to what V said, the Arab League recently came out with a peace proposal that pretty much accepts Israel as long as it ends the occupation of Palestine, Syria’s Golan Heights and southern Lebanon, a just solution to the Palestinian Refugee problem and accepts an independent and sovereign Palestinian State along the 1967 borders then the Arab league would consider the Arab-Israel conflict over and enter into a peace treaty and this would result in comprehensive peace for all states in the region and the normalization of relations with Israel. This peace plan was initially proposed in 2002 and remains on the table for Israel.
Morocco, a constitutional democracy has good ties with Israel (long before it most Arab countries) and has very good relations with America dating back to its establishment when Morocco was the first country to offer them recognition. In any case, the US supplies aid and military intelligence.
Whatever Egyptian media says about Israel, its president is very very pro-Israel even if its people are not. One should note that Egypt -after Israel- receives the largest aid and that does influence them.
Most Arab governments may say they are not pro-Israel but when it comes to organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah, they are reluctant to condemn Israel’s reaction even if they do eventually criticize Israel. The reason why they do not like Hamas and Hezbollah is not because of ideology (especially with Saudi Arabia) but the fear of armed militias attempting to overthrow what they consider an unjust rule.
amyro89,
That peace proposal isn’t all that recent, but at least 6 years old.
Israel have rejected it repeately, with Lieberman describing it as dangerous. So we now know that peace is dangerous to Israel.
Dan Kelly,
Based on the regard the Zionist movement had for the majority of Jews in Europe during WWII, I would be worried if I were them.
Please tell me which country was going to give refuge to Jews during WW2.
Answer ZERO.
Reinhard Heydrich said in the early 40s, we allowed the Jews to immigrate, but nobody would take then in. Its because the world agrees with our policies.
The Brits trying to appease the Arabs gave out the White paper.
The Zionists did everything to fight this white paper.
If you want to know about Zionists caring about Jews.
Why dont you learn about Entebee.
There was refuge for those who wanted it. Efforts in the U.S. to provide refuge were thwarted by the World Zionist Organization, who saw any change in immigration laws as a threat to the colonization of Palestine. Rabbi Wise was instrumental in this. The story repeats itself in Britain, and elsewhere.
I’m sure you aware of Zionist collaboration with Nazis, so I won’t go into it.
The Zionists’ concern was with the establishment of a future Jewish state in Palestine, first and foremost. How much concern they had for the suffering of Jews at the time is debatable. Many of their actions and words indicate a passive attitude at best.
I’ll ignore the bad phrasing for the moment, but your statement is a bald-faced lie. Over 400,000 German Jews were able to escape Nazi Germany before the War. Only 50,000 of those went to Palestine, despite the fact that the Nazis allowed the Zionists to recruit and train young Jews in Germany before leaving for Palestine. Most German Jews went elsewhere, including the US, other European countries, Latin America, and the non-Palestinian Middle East.
And the Jewish Agency in Palestine often times turned down German applicants if they didn’t fit the needs of the Yishuv, or if they weren’t considered “good human material”, in their words. Read Segev’s “The Seventh Million” and Grodzinsky’s “In the Shadow of the Holocaust” , both Israeli authors.
And if you want a really admirable example of what to do when populations are threatened , read about Denmark and Sweden and the Jewish boat rescue. So, really, its the height of ignorance to claim that Jews had nowhere else to go. Many of them did have someplace to go, and most of them chose not to go to Zionist Palestine.
“Why dont you learn about Entebee. ”
Yes, as it turns out, Entebeewas another Israeli sponsored false falg operation to undermine the peace process.
U.K. file on Entebbe contains claim that Israel behind hijacking
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/865937.html
Shingo, amazing story . . . I hadn’t heard that before. Much of the last century’s history in the Middle East has to be reconsidered with the possibility that many of the most outrageous acts of aggression were actually false flag operations. After the attack on the USS Liberty, nothing is beyond the realm of possibility.
And Israel was also behind the Klinghoffer event. They offed him for PR benefit with wavering American Jews.
I write this article for the same reason I wrote my book: to tell the American people, and especially American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate
willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called “cruel Zionism.” I write about it because I was part of it.
Please read the amazing Naeim Giladi, a Jewish man from Iraq:
http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-of-iraq.html
Dan Kelly, this is why you want me barred cause you afraid of a debate.
You left out some information Dan Kelly.
Giladi’s position that the bombings were “perpetrated by Zionist agents in order to cause fear amongst the Jews, and so promote their exodus to Israel” is shared by a number of anti-Zionist authors, including the Israeli Black Panthers (1975), David Hirst (1977), Wilbur Crane Eveland (1980), Uri Avnery (1988), Ella Shohat (1986), Abbas Shiblak (1986), Marion Wolfsohn (1980), and Rafael Shapiro (1984).[4] In his article, Giladi notes that this was also the conclusion of Wilbur Crane Eveland, a former senior officer in the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) who outlined that allegation in his book “Ropes of Sand” [1].
Alternatively, historian Moshe Gat argues that there was little direct connection between the bombings and the exodus of Jewish refugees. Gat questions the guilt of the alleged Jewish bombthrowers who were found guilty in an Iraqi court of having perpetrated one of the bombings. He cites a rumour that a Christian Iraqi army officer “known for his anti-Jewish views”, was initially arrested for the crime, but was evidently not charged despite the large number of explosive materials matching those used in an earlier synagogue bombing that were allegedly found in his home. He further cites a long history of anti-Jewish bomb-throwing incidents in Iraq.[4]
Israeli officials of the time and in particular Mordechai Ben Porat and Shlomo Hillel , prominent figures at the Iraqi Zionist underground, vehemently deny the charges. An internal investigation conducted in Israel in 1960 found no proof of an order to execute such an attack. More possible responsible parties have been suggested, such as the Iraqi CID and the Muslim Brotherhood.
There is however, little in the way of completely definitive evidence either way. Jewish studies scholar, Philip Mendes suggests that, “It therefore remains an open question as to who was responsible for the bombings,” claiming that “memories and interpretations of the events have further been influenced and distorted by the unfortunate discrimination which many Iraqi Jews experienced on their arrival in Israel (Black Panthers 1975:132-133; Shohat 1988; Swirski 1989; Massad 1996).” He does say, however, that Gat argues “convincingly” that there was “was little direct connection between the bombings and exodus.” [4].
Historian Dr. Yosef Meir, a noted Iraqi Zionist underground operative, argues in a rebuttal article that while there is a direct connection, the culprits are the Iraqi government or Arab nationalists. He points to the fact that the bombings in question occurred after the Citizenship relinquishment act of 1950 had already expired and therefore no Jews could register for exit. He also notes that the two zionist operatives hanged were never charged with the masouda shem-tov bombing, but rather three unrelated bombings which occurred later. On the other hand, he lists the motives of the government and the pressure it exerted on “Near-East” (the company performing the airlifts). Yosef Meir’s criticism points to circumstantial evidence that the Zionist movement had no motive while the Iraqi government and Arab nationalists did, and accuses Giladi of withholding this information on purpose, calling it “an obvious attempt to mislead readers.”[5]
Giladi also mentions Mordechai Ben Porat , a former Israeli Member of the Knesset, and a Cabinet minister, who was a key figure in the Zionist underground, as having been cited as one the figures responsible for the bombings by one of the Iraqi investigators into the bombings, in a book entitled “Venom of the Zionist Viper”. Ben-Porat was one of several Israeli undercover Mossad agents arrested in Baghdad after the explosion; he was able to skip bail and flee to Israel.[6] Mordechai Ben-Porat has vigorously denied this allegation, which he characterizes as akin to “blood libel”, and which prompted him to write his 1998 book, “To Baghdad and Back”.[7] In it, Mordechai contends that the false charge against him was conceived at Iraq police headquarters.[7] The affair has also been the subject of an anti-libel lawsuit by Ben Porat against a journalist who published Giladi’s accusations. The lawsuit has been settled out of court with the journalist publishing an apology.[8]
For his 2006 book Occupied Minds, British journalist Arthur Neslen interviewed Yehuda Tajar, a Mossad agent who spent ten years of a 25-year prison sentence in Iraq, after being convicted for the explosions. Tajar insists that, although his undercover cell was prepared to carry out such acts, they did not in fact do so. The actual explosions, he claims, were the work of the Muslim Brotherhood. After several members of the cell were arrested, however, those still at liberty carried out
Nomi, if you insist on cutting and pasting spurious hearsay from propaganda sites (which seems to be you’re forte) at least have the courtesy to link the cesspool from which you dipped.
Nomi, I could have gone to Wikipedia and read that myself, thank you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naeim_Giladi
For the record, Wikipedia is Zionist-occupied territory.
Yes that is why I call it icki sticky wiki pedia -
PRO-ISRAEL GROUP PLANS TO RE-WRITE HISTORY REGARDING PALESTINE ON WIKIPEDIA
“sticky wiki.” I like that.
The organized attempt in March 2008 to infiltrate Wikipedia with 50 hasbara-spewing “editors” is as breathtakingly audacious as the Frank Luntz-authored “How to Manipulate the Mainstream Media” document sponsored by The Israel Project.
Here’s the exchange of emails documenting CAMERA’s efforts to manipulate Wikipedia’s coverage of history in the Middle East. http://electronicintifada.net/downloads/pdf/080421-camera-wikipedia.pdf
Foprmer Mossad agent, Victor Ostrovsky, in his Book, “By way of Deception”, detailed many “false flag” operations (committing crimes and then making it look like others were responsible, such as Palestinian militants, for Israel’s political advantage), extensive espionage inside the United States, extra-judicial assassinations around the world, just to name a few.
This included bombings and blaming them on the Muslim Brotherhood. He stated that “Mossad regards the whole world outside of Israel as a target, including Europe and the United States.”
Ostrovsky points out that “the Mossad does not seem to care how devastating it could be to the status of the Jewish people in the diaspora if it were known. The answer you get if you ask is: “So what’s the worst that could happen to those Jews? They’d all come to Israel? Great.” This is yet another example of how the Zionist agenda actually knowingly helps to create a climate for what is termed as “anti-Semitism”, to try to legitimize the existence of an exclusive Jewish state, even at the expense of others, such as the Palestinians, whose land has been largely expropriated.
Here’s a bit more regarding waging war by way of deception in the context of the USA
where Israel operates in plain sight:
http://aljazeera.com/news/articles/39/How_Israel_wages_war_in_plain_sight.html
Nomi – nice cut and paste job here. You get B for this mid-term paper quoting debunkers of the case for israel’s campaign to hasten jewish expulsion from arab lands. However, you should have tied the case together better, distinguisihing between the different countries – egypt was not the same as Iraq, which was not the same as what happened to the yemenite jews. also the citation of Tajar’s dubious claims about muslim brotherhood need reinforcement. After all, he had a dog in that fight.
Here’s another angle for you to contemplate: these poor mizrahi jews were brought to Israel where they were relegated to second class citizenry for decades. They suffered horrendous discrimination and still do. Their culture and religious customs were obliterated, as was their history. Most of them could have stayed in their home countries where they could have thrived, serving as bridge to the arab countries. But instead, they became – and still are despised minorites in Israel, and can no longer go home to their own countries. The air lifting to Israel of the arab jews to serve as demographic canon fodder is one of the most disgraceful episodes in that country’s history (which is hardly short of disgrace). A day will come and the mizrahi descendants will wake up and sue israel for breach of trust and alienation from culture. I shall be eagerly awaiting that day.
v, Saudi Arabia boycotts any Israeli product.
Saudi Arabia’s state controlled media is just as racist against Israel as the Nazis.
They come up with crazy theories that Israel was behind 9/11 and terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia.
Jordan attacked Israel 3 times.
Tell me V, did Dr Moresadiq condem the brutal crackdown against the peaceful Iranian protests against the stolen election in 2009.
Actually, Israel attacked Jordan a hundred times more than Jordan attacked Israel. Just look at all the bombing runs Israel did on Jordan during the 1950’s.
As for Saudi Arabia… they are the ones who are allowing Israel to use its airspace to bomb Iran. In fact Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan, all aid Israel in its attempt to squash the Palestinians. If Saudi Arabia actually gave a crap they could just cut off the oil and get some real concessions.
Finally, I love how you talk about other countries, that are not directly involved int he Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Please try to stay on topic here Nomi. If Saudi Arabia, Burma, North Korea, etc do some messed up crap, thats their business, and it has no relation to the I/P conflict.
Nomi it is always convenient to attack place with events unrelated to the subject or just plain speculation, or historical ignorance – of which you seem adept…lol
Actually, the only time Jordan could remotely have made what could be considered an attack on Israel was in June 1967, when it joined a war that had been started by Israel against Egypt.
At the time, Jordan had a mutual defense pact with Egypt. So the Israeli attack on Egypt really was in a sense an attack on Jordan too. Jordan lobbed a few shells or something at Israel, it really wasn’t much of an attack.
V, you say Palestinians should not pay the price of the crimes of Hitler.”
There leader Hajj Amin Al Husseini was in cahoots with Hitler.
Palestinians are paying the price for their crimes against Israeli civilians.
Seriously if you were Israel and Arab homicide bombers were blowing up buses, shopping malls, disco’s, pizzeria’s, hotels and any other area they can kill Jews. How do you think Israel should respond?
Can you ever say something thats not a lie Nomi?
The Mufti was interested in Germany because the mufti wanted to end the British occupation of Palestine.
In fact it was the Stern Gang that was actually in cahoots with Nazi Germany.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FzmvniIUmc
Learn your history before you keep repeating your debunked propaganda. I can’t believe you actually tried to link the Palestinians to the holocaust… how low can you go?
James Bradley- You are wrong about the Mufti. I realize this quote is from Wikipedia, but please refute it with an alternate source, if you can.
Back in the summer of 1940 and again in February 1941, al-Hussayni submitted to the German government[113] a draft declaration of German-Arab cooperation, containing a clause:
Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (völkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy.[114]
He recruited Muslim volunteers for the German armed forces operating in the Balkans. Beginning in 1941, Al-Husayni visited Bosnia, and convinced Muslim leaders that a Muslim S.S. division would be in the interest of Islam. In spite of these and other propaganda efforts, only half of the expected 20,000 to 25,000 Muslims volunteered.”[136] Al-Husayni was involved in the organization and recruitment of Bosnian Muslims into several divisions of the Waffen SS and other units.
According to this the Mufti was up to his neck in involvement with the Nazis. Now that you have demonstrated your devotion to the whitewashing of the mufti’s career, I will take your whitewashing of the position of Hamas with a few extra grains of salt.
wondering jew,
The Mufti was irrelevbatn oas of 1939, so any of his stupid ideas were inconsequential. The Palestinians had already ceased to recognize his authority or relevance.
He tried to rally the Palestinians to fight the Bririch, but the ignored his calls and fought with the allies. In fact, more Jews joined Hitler’s cause than Arabs.
You’re barking up the wrong tree.
WJ – The problem with Al-Husseini is not so much with his pro-German views and activities (well-documented) as with the actual importance of his role – regarding both the Palstinians he purported to represent, and the German war/genocide effort – and the ways in which it has been instrumentalised in Zionist historiography and politics. See Idit Zertal, Death and the Nation, ch.3 – particularly the section headed “Arabs=Nazis”.
WJ,
You claim that your quote disproves what Bradley says, but I don’t see where it does. Frankly. with the coordinated attempts to blame the Mufti, and thereby the Palestinians for everything Hitler, the quote itself has to be taken with a grain of salt. As does the rest of the entry. But even if all of it is true it merely points out that the Mufti was interested in an agreement with Germany that would guarantee an independent Palestine, free from British or Zionist control. Really not much different from the Stern Gang’s proposal of support in return for an independent Zionist state. Both Husseini and Stern were seeking independent power free from British control. I don’t find either case to be particularly shocking, nor were either very important to the scheme of things. Husseini was already a side-lined figure, and the Nazis simply ignored the Zionist offer as far as I know.
Besides, you seem to take a grain of salt whenever someone disagrees with your position. There’s nothing wrong with that, per se, but its really rather disingenuous to claim that its a special case with Bradley when its not. I wouldn’t say that Bradley’s single statement “demonstrated {his} devotion to the whitewashing of the mufti’s career.” I think that statement of yours was over the line and an attempt to smear all of Bradley’s posts here. You have made incorrect statements here yourself. Does that mean that you have demonstrated your devotion to whitewashing Zionism? Does that mean that all your statements should be viewed as whitewashing and taken with a grain of salt?
I think Israel should reflect on the fact Nomi that it did the same exact terrorist attacks which were more numerous and ferocious at its inception to the Palestinians. You are at at a site Nomi where you are in over you’re head for such dumb regurgitation’s from hasbara mentors. In fact, I have visited many of the sites and challenged them to public debate, they declined, you’re mentors have more sense than you do.
Not only was the Mufti only one man, he was appointed by the British to lead the Palestinians AND he was exiled by 1939. Furthermore, the Palestinians themslves rejected his calls for a johad against the British becasue they had been promised independence by the British.
In fact, more Jews allied with Hitler than Palestinians, 150,000 joined his Nazi military.
Shingo – Regarding the mufti, I was attacking a whitewash of him, not blaming the Palestinians for his acts and words.
And please provide a source for this: 150,000 Jews joined Hitler’s Nazi military.
You didn’t know? Whose history is whitewashed now, huh?
Wondering Jew,
” And please provide a source for this: 150,000 Jews joined Hitler’s Nazi military.”
Here you go.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html
“Palestinians are paying the price for their crimes against Israeli civilians.”
And Israelis are not paying the price for their crimes against Palestinian civilians. In fact, they continue torewarded. If you were Gaza and Israeli planes bombing buses, schools, hospitals, homes and any other area they can kill Palestinians, as well as using children in the West Bank as target practice by the IDF, or bulldozoing homes, evicting Palestinians from homes they’ve had for centuries and arresting them arbitrarily, do you think the Palestinians should respond?
I know if I were in Palestine and Russian immigrants were stoning my children and throwing wine on my elders and literally pushing people out of their homes — or bulldozing them — and were setting farms on fire and building concentration camp style walls around my community… I know how I’d respond.
Israel slaughters civilians at a rate at least twelve times anything the Palestinians have ever collectively mustered.
Of course, you’re conveniently ignoring the Zionist attempts to ally themselves with Hitler throughout 1940-41.
Tree, According to Al Arabiyah, In Jordan selling land to Israelis or someone acting on their behalf was illegal and punishable by death prior to1995. A milder statute that took its place still bars Israelis from buying, or leasing, Jordanian land.
“[I]t is impermissible for foreign persons or corporate entities that do not hold an Arab nationality to purchase, lease, or own directly or indirectly any immovable property in the kingdom” according to the Law on Economic Boycott and Banning Dealing with the Enemy (Article 6) without an exception approved by high level political authorization.
So your wrong about what you said that Jews can buy land in Jordan.
No, you are wrong Nomi, you and you’re reticulated third party pack of liars, why don’t you go to original documentation like any other legitimate person who cites? Do you want to know why? Because you masticate garbage and then try to spew it here, it won’t work.
In Israel, loand blonging to Arabs is routinely given to Israeli Jews and the inhabitants evidected, so Israel’s laws today are as bad as Jordan’s were prior to 1955.
It sheds a light on who is the backward nation.
Perhaps you ought to mention this to the Israel Land Fund, who, according to Arutz Sheva, is planning on buying land in Jordan with the help of European Jews.
The plan is in its early stages, and no properties in Jordan have been bought to date. Purchasing would likely take place with the help of Jews in Europe, King said, as Israelis are prohibited from buying land in Jordan under Jordanian law.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132492
Or perhaps even better, you should realize that you’ve been lied to by other hasbarists who claim that Jews can’t purchase land in Jordan. Maybe you should wonder if they haven’t lied to you about other things as well.
And as a further note, Jordanian law prohibits sale to any foreigner from a country that prohibits sale of its lands to any Jordanian citizen. Guess which Middle East country prohibits sale of its lands to any foreigner who is not a Jew? Hint: Its not Iraq or Iran.
Cr@p. Only the paragraph before the link was intended to be in italics as it is a quote from AS. The rest is me.
On to the subject at hand while we ignore the flea in the ointment.
You cannot address any situation in Palestine without addressing Zionism, changing its face will do zero. To ignore what is done by this pervasive ideology is like treating a fatal disease with an aspirin.
I have used this illustration before (elsewhere) about the bombing of Hiroshima. When you view the destruction you have to go to the source. Dealing with Zionism by Zionism, is like someone entering Hiroshima after the bomb and seeing looters – than blaming the entire tragedy on the looters in the aftermath!
Seriously, do Zionists not know what “Reply” means? Do they not know how that button works? Really?
Oh, right. You can’t spam a conversation into oblivion if you don’t keep starting new topics. Makes fleeing from rebuttal easier too.
I’ve been leery of J Street but tentatively hopeful. This just shows how irretrievably corrupt Zionism has become.
James Bradley, Chaos4700 and amyro89 you seriously need a history lesson.
The Golan Heights was never part of Syria before 1946.
The Golan was part of the British mandate borders of 1917 that was supposed to go to Israel.
Great Britain made a deal with France and illegally gave the Jewish Golan to the French who then gave it to Syria in 1946.
Syria controlled the Golan for only 21 years, half the period it has been under Israeli rule. Almost half of the Golan was purchased by Rothschild and later robbed by the Syrian government in 1946. Jews settled in the Golan as early as 1886 but they were expelled, massacred in 46.
The Golan is where the tribes of Dan and Menashe settled, and Israeli kings ranging from Saul to Herod ruled there. The Golan saw consecutive Jewish settlement for 800 years; 300 Jewish communities from the time of the Mishna and Talmudwere discovered there, along with the remnants of 27 synagogues. Later, 1,000 years of desolation followed, until the Jews returned. The Golan belongs to us because it is the estate of our forefathers and not only by the power of occupation in a defensive waragainst an aggressor, like America in Texas and Polandand former German territories.
“Great Britain made a deal with France and illegally gave the Jewish Golan to the French who then gave it to Syria in 1946.”
The British controller Palestine and gave half of it to Israel. Was that legal or not?
So when the British gave the Golan heights to France, who in turn, gave it to Syria, that is every bit as legal as the creatino of Israel and no, seeing as Israle never existed at the time, it was NEVER therefore, part of Israel.
“The Golan Heights was never part of Syria before 1946.” This is absolutely true, in fact, Syria wasn’t part of Syria before 1946, the year of Syria’s independence.
“Almost half of the Golan was purchased by Rothschild” According to the Jewish Virtual Library, Rothschild purchased 18000 acres, or 73 square km. The Golan heights is 1800 square km.
Saul (assuming he existed) wasn’t Israeli. He wasn’t even Jewish, as the religion is today, polytheism was the rule then. The Golan was, apparently, part of a later Jewish conquest by the Hasmoneans (circa 100 BCE), who forced the inhabitants to convert. The length of the ancient Jewish reign was maybe 200 years total? Out of its 8000 year history. The people whose forefathers actually lived there in ancient times later became Christians, Muslims or Druze. There was no desolation, unless you count the 130 or so villages and towns razed by Israel after its conquest.
I fully understand the power religious myth has over people. But it’s myth, not historical fact, although I guess religious fanatics take it as such.
Proof Golan is historically Israels.
Brilliant article
http://xrl.us/bmfrf
“http://xrl.us/bmfrf”
Pure fluff and historical BS.
This article buys into the belief that modern Israel is based on the mythical Kingdom of Israel when in fact, modern Israel has not connectino to it whatsover.
And of course, it’s my responsibility as an American Citizen and a Jew to see that the “Kingdom of Israel” is raised anew to rewrite the last, unfortunate parts of the Old Testament? So Jesus can come?
Forget it, and be careful what you wish for.
Any Israel-Syria deal must be based on Hatay Model.
Turkey won Hatay (Alexandretta) province back in 1939 in a war with Syria.
4 years ago, a historic event happened in the Mideast that for some reason James Bradley, Chaos4700 and amyro89 will not talk about.
The Syrian regime recognized for the first time the Alexandretta (Hatay) region as sovereign Turkish territory after dozens of years where Syria strongly demanded Turkish withdrawal from this area.
The Syrian position was for years an uncompromising demand to “return” the area to Syrian sovereignty. Syria educated its citizens and children to view it as Hatay as part of Syria. All Syrian maps showed Alexandretta as part of Syria
For dozens of years, Turkey was unwilling to discuss any kind of compromise in Alexandretta. It never expressed a willingness to cede Alexandretta in exchange for peace. It never negotiated a withdrawal from Alexandretta. Its attitude was clear and simple – Alexandretta is ours. Period.
For dozens of years, Turkey showed determination in safeguarding its national objectives and strategic interests. It turns out that the stubbornness and patience paid off. Syria recognized reality and in contradiction to its pledges for dozens of years when it renounced its claim for Alexandretta.
Syria came to the right conclusion only peace for peace will bring peace.
We hope Syria will come to that conclustion on the Israeli Golan Heights.
Syria will have to recognize reality and accept Israeli sovereignty in the Golan. Turkey waited patiently for 70 years. Israel may have to wait less.
It would be appropriate for Israel to adopt the Turkish model and respect its sovereignty in the Golan just like Turkey respected its sovereignty in Alexandretta. Just like the Turks, Israel too must show determination and patience. We should not discuss the Golan, negotiate over the Golan, or agree to create any kind of link between the Golan and peace with Syria. Just like Turkey, Israel must say that the Golan is ours. Period.
The Golan has never been part of Israel.
Israel was created by the British as part of British mandate Palestine. The Golan was part fo Syria before Israel was created, therefore Israeli never had any sovereign right to the Golan.
Israel has never claimed the Goln to be part fo Israel. It’s proably best that you accept reality.
How long can James Bradley, Chaos4700 and amyro89 be silent on Syrian fascism?
A must read article.
http://www.kurdmedia.com/article.aspx?id=15139
Campaign for the international recognition of human rights of half a million Kurds “Buried Alive” in Syria
10/13/08
Tree, there are 1.3 million Arabs in Israel and ZERO Jews in Jordan
So whose about aparthied? I’ll let you guess
Nomi,
How many Jordanians are in Israel?
You don’t understand the meaning of apartheid, do you? It is having two sets of rules that the populations have to live by, determined solely by ethnicity. There are 5 million Palestinians living under Israeli control. The majority of them are denied their basic human rights by Israel. Some of them are merely treated as third class citizens. All of them are treated the way they are by Israel because they are not Jewish. Israel for the most part treats its Jews fine, but most Palestinians live under different and much more oppressive rules than your average Israeli Jew. This is apartheid.
Plus in regard to Jews being in Jordan, who wants to go to Jordan? Especially in light of the fact that they might be indiscriminately bombed by Israel? LOL
The Zionist regime has no intention of accepting a two-state solution – as it know that would be the final nail in its coffin based on the following three reasons:
1. When the UN Security Council recognizes the new ‘Palestinian State’ as a sovereign entity – it, automatically, would grant the new state the right to establish its own army, air-force and navy – to defend its territory, control its waterways and protect natural gas reserves found there. Both Tehran and Moscow and the fellow Islamic Resistant group, Hizb’Allah – would be more than happy to assist the new state to establish and train a modern armed force for their own national interests. Zionist regime will never let this happen. What it’s contemplating is a Palestinian police force, which the Israeli forces can run-over any time Tel Aviv wants without much damage to its Zionazi soldiers as was the case during recent 23-day Israeli attack on Gazzah.
2. According to UN Resolution 181 (II) of 1947 – British mandated Palestine was partitioned into two independent States – one Jewish (54% of land for 38% Jewish population) and the other Arab Palestinian with Jerusalem internationalized. However, the Jewish terrorist militias, belonging to Stern and Irgun (now Likud) and others – occupied 77% of Arab Palestinian share and a large part of Jerusalem (West) as result of 1948 war. In 1967, Israeli army occupied the entire remaining part of Arab Palestine including the West Bank and Gazzah Strip (occupied by Jordan and Egypt in 1948) and Arab East Jerusalem. Security Council Resolution 242 (November 22, 1967) called on Israel to withdraw from Arab territories it had occupied in 1967 including East Jerusalem – which it never did. As part of the “two state” solution – Israel not only has to dismantle all Jewish settlements in the West Bank and around East Jerusalem – but also have to pay compensations to the Arab inhibitants of West Jerusalem, whos were robbed of their lands, homes and businesses by the invading European Jews in 1948. Zionist regime will never like to have those facist armed Jew settlers into its own borders as they’re no different than terrorist of Irgun and Stern – though thanks to America’s powerful Jewish Lobby – Washington would not mind paying billions of dollars as compensation on behalf of the Zionist regime.
3. Under international laws – Zionist regime is required to allow over four million native Palestinian Muslims and Christians living in refugee camps or foreign countries – who themselves or their parents – were born in the area now called Israel. The return of these Palestinians would certainly destroy Israel as the Jewish demographic country – the ideology the Zionist Jews have been implementing since 1948.
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/obama-and-the-palestinian-state/
That is a new low Rehmet.
Actually, almost everyone here has heard all of your “history” and also knows as well what the real history is. That’s your problem and why you are not making any headway here. We’ve heard all your cr@p ad nauseum and we know enough to know that it is selective truth at best and downright racist lies at worst. And why is it, do you suppose, that I can take a random line you’ve “written” without attribution and find the exact same words written from some hasbara site? Can’t you at least be honest enough to cite who you are quoting if you can’t be trusted to use your own words?
Rehmat, let me respond to your lies.
First, the Arabs have 80% of the British mandate borders. The Jews have 20%
spoils.
In 1922, to reward Hashemites who supported the British in WW1, the British chopped off almost 80% of the original Mandate borders and handed it over to the Hashemites.
Since all of this land reward consisted of Palestine across (east of) the Jordan River, the East Bank became known as the Emirate of Transjordan. Thus arose the name “West Bank”–formerly known for thousands of years as Judea and Samaria–located on the opposite shore.
When Transjordan illegally seized the non-apportioned territory of the Mandate on the “West Bank” in 1948 (where Jews, Arabs, and others were legally allowed to live), when it joined other attacking Arab states to try to nip a reborn Israel in the bud, it further emphasized this designation to distinguish its newly conquered territory from the original 1922 Emirate.
Jews lived and owned property in Judea and Samaria for thousands of years. Massacres by Arabs in the 1920s and 1930s took their tolls as did previous ups and downs of Jewish history under various imperial conquerors which succeeded each other since the fall of Judea to Rome some two thousand years earlier.
However, as soon as Transjordan seized Judea and Samaria, it declared that no Jew could live there. Places such as Hebron, Beth-El, Shilo, Bethlehem, Shechem, and so forth are known to the world via the Hebrew Bible. Most Arabs came into the area after their own imperial conquests in the 7th century C.E. They ruled, first out of Damascus and then out of Bagdad, for a few centuries and were then conquered themselves by the next of Judea’s imperial settlers and colonizers.
After 1949, when Transjordan seized the “West Bank,” while no Jews were allowed in the territories, Arabs poured
To further its Judenrein policies, Transjordan–now holding both banks of the River– renamed itself Jordan and proceeded to destroy dozens of synagogues, cemeteries, and so forth in adjacent Jerusalem and elsewhere dating back numerous centuries and showing the Jews’ continuous connections to the land.
Look at what came after Israel’s total withdrawal from Gaza years ago to see what a total Israeli withdrawal from the “West Bank” will mean for Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, Ben-Gurion Airport…
Then no recognizing a 22nd state for Arabs–and their second , not first, one in “Palestine”.
Judea and Samaria are literally a stone’s throw away from Israel’s heartland, are an integral part of Jewish history, and are positioned to allow a hostile army entering from the east to cut Israel in half.
That’s a nice fairy take Nomi,
But most of it has no basis in historical fgact.
Judea and Samaria might be part of Jewish history, but never related to Israel.
Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza did not result si nindepence, freedom or self deterinatino for the residents of Gaza. I fact, Zertal and Akiva Eldar described it as such:
“After Israel withdrew it’s forces from Gaza, in August 2005, the ruined territory was not released for even a single day from Israel’s military grip, or from the price of the occupation that the inhabitants pay every day. Israel left behind scotched earth, devastated services, and people with nearly a present or a future. The Jewish settlements were destroyed in an ungenerous move by an unenlightened occupier, which in fact continues to control the territory and kill and harass it’s inhabitants, by means of it’s formidable military might.”
Israeli only withdrew it’s settlers to recolate them in the “West Bank”, which they considered more valuable.
Last but not least, the Palestinians have alwasy been there, in fact as Shlomo Zand has revealed, they are the descendents of the ancients Judeans, as is proved by the fact that 85% of them have a genetic connections to the original Judeans. They were assimiliated and converted to Islam when Palestine was conquered.
Rehmat, the Palestinians are refugees cause the Arabs keep them as refugees.
You know its good propaganda. It shows how the Arabs love their people.
The Arabs have 21 countries including 3 out of the 4 largest countries in Africa which they stole from the Berbers and Blacks. Yet the Arabs have refugees.
When the Arabs kicked out all the Jews from the Arab countries, Israel took in every single one of those refugees.
The refugees were created by Israel, not the Arab states. The homes of the refugees are in Israel, not the Arab states.
They are not the Arab people, but Palestinians and those 21 countries are not their homes.
Also, the Arabs did not kick out all the Jews from the Arab countries. Those Jews migrated to Israel who took them in because it was necesary for Israel’s popualtino to grow.
Shingo, get a history lesson.
The Golan was never part of Syria before 1946.
Read the articles i posted. It shows the Golan always belonged to Israel.
So, let me ask you a question, Nomi. Why is it that you choose to believe the “history” that you do? Do you even acknowledge that there is another history which is totally at odds with the one that you have embraced without question? Have you ever read anything that didn’t come from an opinion piece at Arutz Sheva, where you seem to be lifting much of your material. Do you really think an opinion piece at a rabidly partisan site is a good source of historical information?
Do you think that we should agree with you just because you cite such partisan rhetoric?
Nomi,
Get your logic straight. The Golan was given to Syria in 1946. Israel was created in 1948, after Golan became part of Syria.
Your articles are a joke.
Dan Kelly, you say, There was refuge for those who wanted it.
What country was going to give them refuge?
You say the U.S. Did you ever hear of the Voyage of the St. Louis ship in 39? The U.S did everything to make sure no Jewish refugees from that ship got in the U.S
The ship was sent back to Germany and most of the Jewish people on the ship were murdered by the Nazis.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/stlouis.html
Even when the war was over Roosevelt and Eisenhower did everything to make sure no Jews could enter the U.S. Your looking pretty stupid with your facts Dan Kelly.
No wonder you want to bar me from posting.
Read some history.
Consider the experience of Sgt. Richard Paul, a reporter for Yank, an army magazine for soldiers. In October 1944 - six months before Obama’s great-uncle entered Ohrdruf Sgt. Paul submitted an article about the mass murder of the Jews in Auschwitz, the editors of Yank turned it down, saying it was “too Semitic.” They told him to rewrit it so that it “did not deal principally with Jews.” The army’s other magazine, Stars and Stripes, was no different. It was not until April 1945 that Stars and Stripes finally published articles about Nazi atrocities and concentration camps, and even then, the articles did not mention Jews.
The average GI reading Stars and Strips had no way of knowing that Jews were the main victims of the Nazis. The line followed by Yank and Stars and Stripes was unfortunately consistent with the approach of the Roosevelt administration as a whole. Calling attention to the fact that the Jews were being singled out for persecution would have increased pressure on the US government to grant them refuge - something President Franklin Roosevelt did not want to do.
The chiefs of the US Office of War Information instructed their staff that coverage of the Nazi mass-murders would be “confused and misleading if it appears to be simply affecting the Jewish people.” A meeting of the American, British, and Soviet foreign ministers in Moscow in October 1943 issued a statement threatening postwar punishment for Nazi war crimes against conquered populations.
It mentioned “French, Dutch, Belgian or Norwegian hostages …Cretan peasants … the people of Poland” but not Jews. In a similar spirit, General Eisenhower himself removed all references to Jews from a leaflet the Allies air-dropped over Europe in September 1944, threatening to punish anyone who collaborated in Nazi atrocities against civilians. Even President Roosevelt’s 1944 message commemorating the first
anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto revolt - a rebellion by Jewish fighters - did not mention the Jews.
Arthur Szyk, the famous artist and Holocaust rescue activist, remarked bitterly that Europe’s Jews were being “treat[ed] as a pornographical subject you cannot discuss it in polite society.” On several recent occasions, President Obama expressed regrets about some past US policies and their impact abroad. Perhaps his visit to
Buchenwald, and his memories of what happened to his great-uncle, will inspire the president to say a few words about the Roosevelt administration’s appalling policy toward Europe’s Jews during the Holocaust and about the lessons to be learned, in order to help stop genocide today.
Nomi, We’ve gone over this before. The St Louis passengers ended up being taken in by four European countries, England, Belgium, France and the Netherlands. While the ship eventually returned to Germany, there were no passengers on it when it returned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis
Of the 900 German refugees, estimates of those who eventually died during WWII range from 227 to 365, meaning that the majority of the passengers survived the war. You’ve got this wrong. Perhaps you should consider questioning your sources as they are lying to you.
And, BTW, according to Tom Segev, Israeli historian/journalist, the Jewish Agency refused a request from the Joint Distribution Committee to allow the St Louis passengers to be given certificates of immigration into Palestine.
Shingo, you say Entebee was another Israeli sponsored false falg operation to undermine the peace process.
Read the article.
It says, a British government file on the incident quotes the unnamed source as telling a British diplomat in Paris that Israel was behind the hijacking. The claim is not known to be backed up by corroborating evidence, and the file does not make it clear whether the British government took the claim seriously.
An unnamed source. I love these unnanmed sources.
Maybe the unnamed source thinks 4000 Jews didn’t show up at the World Trade Center or the Jews killed JFK.
Remember the British will do anything to appease the Arabs.
The British just freed the Lockerbie bomber to make an oil deal with Libya.
I can see the British saying next, Israel was behind the bombing of Pan Am 103 and Shingo will post an article saying another false flag by Israel.
Shingo you prove more and more how loony the left is.
Nomi,
It’s not me suggesting that ntebee was another Israeli sponsored false falg operation, it was UK document.
“I love these unnanmed sources.”
Yes you do when they agree with you which is why for the rest of your post, you fly of fon a tangest of straw men about 911. Typical Zionist reaction when your propaganda has been debunked.
Shingo, Olmert for months told Hamas to stop firing missles at Israel.
What do you expect Israel to do is someone was firing thousands of missles at them.
No missles, no Israeli response.
If Germany was firing thousands of missles at England, you think England would not respond.
You say, using West Bank as target practice by the IDF,
No they go in the West Bank to stop terrorists who plan to blow up Israeli civilians on buses, shopping malls, pizzeria’s and hotels.
You probably believe their was a massacre in Jenin in 2002.
Read this article and you will understand what Israel is doing.
http://www.aish.com/jw/mo/48942341.html
Nomi,
“Olmert for months told Hamas to stop firing missles at Israel.”
And for 4 months Hamas did stop firing missles at Israel until Israel broke the ceasfire on November 4th.
So no missiles, and still Israeli raid.
“You say, using West Bank as target practice by the IDF”
Children in the West Bank, yes.
“No they go in the West Bank to stop terrorists who plan to blow up Israeli civilians on buses, shopping malls, pizzeria’s and hotels.”
Nazis used the same propaganda. No, the IDF go in the West Bank to protect settlements and to make like unbrearable for the Palestinians.
“You probably believe their was a massacre in Jenin in 2002.”
There were many killed by the IDF. No idea if they were all burried in one grave.
“Read this article and you will understand what Israel is doing.”
I save reading fiction for bed time. Those lies were debunked a long time ago.
Poor James Bradley.
At the Nuremberg Trials, Eichmann’s deputy Dieter Wisliceny (subsequently executed as a war criminal) testified:
Hajj Amin Al Husseini was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. … He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.
Rubbish. There was no such testimony or Zionists woudl have found an English translation.
Al Husseini wasn’t even tried for war crimes, because there was no evidence found against him.
And during the so called collaboration, he was already in exile and had no role in Palestinian affairs.
You have to admit its one of the crazier hasbara points. One the one hand, Hitler was a madman who clearly intended to kill all the Jews, and anyone who didn’t recognize that well before WWII is just an anti-semite, but, on the other hand, Hitler was going to go all soft and gooey and needed the Mufti to convince him to kill Jews. Or was it that Hitler only got the idea to kill all the Jews from the Mufti? But then how could Hitler have been so obviously intent on killing all the Jews if he needed the Mufti? Its really a dangerous hasbara play, because it asks one to question the official sacrosanct Holocaust narrative in order to smear the Palestinians. Hey, if the narrative can be tossed on its head so easily just to make a racist point, maybe the narrative isn’t really as sacrosanct as we think?
Shingo why argue with someone who is just cutting and pasting Zionist propaganda. This last one was copied from:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php
Shingo, my articles rebuke your false statements.
Wriong Nommi. Your articles are false in themsleves and have been exposed as such a ling time ago.
Try harder.
James Bradley, you say, And your point nomi? Zionism today means that Jewish people have the right to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians.
No, but when 5 Arab armies attack you and you defend yourself this is called self defense.
You say,
Zionism as its practiced today means that women, children, and babies are allowed to be burned to death with white phosphorus.
Wrong, the Palestinians fire behind women and children wanting dead civilians.
As Alan Dershowitz brilliantly wrote about.
DERSHOWITZ: Hamas’ dead baby strategy
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/…/hamas-dead-baby-strategy/
You say, Zionism today means that Israel has a right to brutally occupy the Palestinians, and subject them to a medieval siege.
There is no such thing as a Palestinian people. Israel existed 1500 years before Mohammad was born. No such state called Palestine ever existed in history.
To make it simple, please tell me one Palestinian President before 1993?
Its not looking good James.
Then you say, i should quote Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Meshaal.
Yes they want half of Israel for now. You know the stages plan and for Israel to take in 5 million Arabs.
Thats the peace you want for Israel.
You are a loon!
Does a besieged people that is waiting breathlessly for a ship to come from the sea want to throw the Jews into the ocean? Our conflict is not with the Jews, our problem is with the occupation,” Haniyeh said.
You keep telling us about the brillint articles, but they ar righr wing propaganda. WorldnetDaily? Please!!
Dershowitz’s brilliant article? Yeah, from a man exposed as a plagiarist.
The land of Palestine was a thriving community before Israle built it up. In 1916, Jews were 10% of thepopualtion and by 1948, Jews only owned 7% of the land. 50% belnged to Arabs.
The Palestinians were already there and had been for many centuries, and didn’t immigrate there.
Well, Nomi1998, first let me agree with you regarding Entebbe. It was no more of an Israeli false flag operation than was the hijacking of three airliners by the PFLP in 1970 who were determined both to free Palestinian prisoners illegally held in Israeli jails and to stop Hussein in Jordan from launching Black September which was lready in the works before the hijacking.
As for the rest, your source, the Jewish Virtual Library is run by a former AIPAC paid propagandist, Mitchell Bard who is still putting out Zionist propaganda for his other group, the American-Israel Cooperative Enterprise (AICE).
Efforts both to bring Jews to the US as well as to rescue Jews in Germany were either opposed or sabotaged by mainstream Zionists (see Ben Hecht’s “Perfidy,” since they placed building a Jewish state before saving the lives of non-Zionist Jews who they held in contempt. There are more than enough sources for that which are no doubt available on line.
But even if everything you and other Zionist apologists say is true about the Jews having no other place to go (yet, amazingly, within just a few years being able to wrap the US around their fingers!) , why should the Palestinians have been forced to give up their country as a price for crimes with which they were not involved? ( And please no more of that Mufti crap. The average Israeli is closer to Sharon than the vast majority of the Palestinians were to the Mufti.)
Now, here’s something to consider. There is ample evidence from speeches and documents from those times that the Ba,lfour Declaration was a reward to the Zionists for having helped induce Pres. Wilson to break his word and enter WW One on the side of Britain at a time it was losing and was close to suing for peace.
Had the Germans not lost the war, there would have been no punitive Versailles treaty, consequently Germany would not have faced the conditions that produced Hitler and the Nazi Party, and with no Hitler, there would have been no holocaust, and therefore, no Israel. An irony of history, is it not?
Now, dear Zionists. And Witty, too, if you’re still sayaniming, tell me: what would you prefer? Those dead Jews and their progeny among the living or a Jewish state?
Shingo, The British goverment themselves said they didn’t believe the Entebee document. The fact you think Israel was behind the Entebee shows what a nut job you are. With all the lefties in the Israeli goverment over the years, dont you think one of them would have verified this story.
Entebee showed how much zionism will do anything to save Jews all over the world.
Do explain how “all the lefties in the Israeli goverment”, have distinguidshed themselves from the right wing in policy and actions?
“Entebee showed how much zionism will do anything to save Jews all over the world.”
Really? You mean like when Ben Gurion said it was better that Jews burned in ovens than for Israel not to be created?
Indeed Nomi, but who will save the world from Zionists?
Jeffrey Blankfort supporting the Entebee hijacking. Thats no shock!
2nd you need to get your facts right.
King Hussein offered to make Arafat his Prime Minister in 1970.
Arafat double-crossed Hussein by trying to overthrow his goverment.
Arafat was supported by Syria and the Soviet community block.
There’s a brilliant article called the day Arafat was offered power which details what Arafat did to King Hussein.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27677
Then you say,
As for the rest, your source, the Jewish Virtual Library is run by a former AIPAC paid propagandist, Mitchell Bard who is still putting out Zionist propaganda for his other group, the American-Israel Cooperative Enterprise (AICE).
Show me one thing Mitchell Bard has said thats false?
Its like Memri and Pal Media watch.
Show me one statement where they misquote an Arab.
On WW2, Zionists tried to save Jews, but there was no country that would give them refuge. It proves more and more how important Israel is. It proves why we should not allow radical fringe Jews like Blankfort who want to eliminate Israel to make Israel the 22nd Arab country.
Then you say, why should the Palestinians have been forced to give up their country as a price for crimes with which they were not involved?
For the umpteen time, there was never in history any state called Palestine governed by Palestinians.
Read the Myth of the Palestinian people for a history lesson.
http://middleeastfacts.com/Articles/myth-of-the-palestinian-people.php
You say,
Now, here’s something to consider. There is ample evidence from speeches and documents from those times that the Balfour Declaration was a reward to the Zionists for having helped induce Pres. Wilson to break his word and enter WW One on the side of Britain at a time it was losing and was close to suing for peace.
The Balfour declaration did nothing for Jews.
When did the Brits create a Jewish state?
The British created an Arab state with 75% of the mandate borders in 1922. ( Jordan)
The Brits never created any Jewish state and gave out a white paper to support the Arabs in 39.
You say,
Had the Germans not lost the war, there would have been no punitive Versailles treaty, consequently Germany would not have faced the conditions that produced Hitler and the Nazi Party, and with no Hitler, there would have been no holocaust, and therefore, no Israel. An irony of history, is it not?
Total bull. The Jews were going back to the land that was historically there’s.
The Jews built up the country and thats why the Palestinians immigrated there cause of all the economical opportunities the Jews created late in the Ottoman empire and during the Mandate.
Now get back to making up your pallywood lies.
“… but when 5 Arab armies attack you and you defend yourself this is called self defense.”
The Arab states were responding the terrorist atatcks by the Irgun and Stenr gangs, who were terrorising Palestinans, so yes it was self defense in the same way Israel claims it ot be.
“Wrong, the Palestinians fire behind women and children wanting dead civilians.
As Alan Dershowitz brilliantly wrote about.”
Dershowitz is a lying shill and Isaeli propagandist who has been exposed as a plagiarist. What’s more, it was the IDF who were expose das using human shields.
There is no such thing as a Palestinian people.
Non sequiter. It doesn’t matter what you decide to call them, the Palestinians do exist, ahd were the indigenous people of the land as is proved by statements from Ben Gurion in 1936, who stated in a meeting with his Mapai party:
” …. the [Palestinian Arabs] fear is not of losing land, but of losing the homeland of the Arab people, which others want to turn into the homeland of the Jewish people. The [Palestinian] Arab is fighting a war that cannot be ignored. He goes out on strike, he is killed, he makes great sacrifices.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 18)
“Israel existed 1500 years before Mohammad was born.”
So what? When the Jews came to Palestine, it was already inhabitted. Town like Jericho pre-date Judaisn by 3-4 millenia.
No such state called Palestine ever existed in history.
Neither did a ste of Israel. A small groups of cillages maybe, and ther eis no histofcal record of any kingdom.
“To make it simple, please tell me one Palestinian President before 1993?”
The Palestinians had a cosntitunio as early as 1914. Israel still don’t have one.
“Yes they want half of Israel for now.”
No they want Palestine as defined by the 1967 borders.
“Does a besieged people that is waiting breathlessly for a ship to come from the sea want to throw the Jews into the ocean?”
No one has said they wantto throw Jews into the sea.
“Our conflict is not with the Jews, our problem is with the occupation,” Haniyeh said.
Perfetly reasonable. There are 35 UN Resolutions against Israel to end the occupation.
Shingo here is Ben Gurion talking about the Jews and Holocaust.
Here is the real quotes by Ben Gurion.
http://books.google.com/books?id=7Qh6zMqGKNcC&pg=PA332&lpg=PA332&dq=Ben+Gurion+Jews+burned+in+ovens&source=bl&ots=v28wjs-HU6&sig=YqeH17-oejlCmdRQwPcQ5zzs3O0&hl=en&ei=177jSpn_E46ZlAeskvCKBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Nomi998,
Here is another real quote by Ben Gurion.
“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.” — David Ben-Gurion
More Ben-Gurion quotes:
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves .. politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
(David Ben-Gurion, 1938)
“If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: We have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it’s true, but 2,000 years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: We have come here and stolen their country.”
(David Ben-Gurion, 1956)
“A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning … We shall bring into the state all the Jews it is possible to bring … We shall establish a multi-faceted Jewish economy – agricultural, industrial, and maritime. We shall organize a modern defense force, a select army … and then I am certain that we will not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country, either by mutual agreement with our Arab neighbors or by some other means. Our ability to penetrate the country will increase if there is a state.”
(David Ben-Gurion, 1937)
“If Jews will have to choose between the refugees, saving Jews from concentration camps, and assisting a national museum in Palestine, mercy will have the upper hand and the whole energy of the people will be channelled into saving Jews from various countries. Zionism will be struck off the agenda not only in world public opinion, in Britain and the United States, but elsewhere in Jewish public opinion. If we allow a separation between the refugee problem and the Palestinian problem, we are risking the existence of Zionism.”
(David Ben-Gurion, 17 December 1938)
“What is necessary is cruel and strong reactions. We need precision in time, place, and casualties. If we know the family, we must strike mercilessly, women and children included. Otherwise, the reaction is inefficient. At the place of action, there is no need to distinguish between guilty and innocent.”
(David Ben-Gurion, 1 January 1948)
“To maintain the status quo will not do. We have to set up a dynamic state bent upon expansion.”
(David Ben-Gurion, 1954)
“We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return!”
(David Ben-Gurion, 18 July 1948)
Shingo, There were also U.N resolutions against Israel condemming them for arresting Eichmann in 1960, the Entebee rescue and bombing Iraq’s nuclear facility in 81.
Hamas think all of Israel belongs to them.
Can you read Shingo?
http://www.arabicnews.com/advertisements/anfog/anfog_pop.html
Haniyeh: Palestinians never to recognize Israeli legitmacy.
They also think Israel is taking in 5 million Arabs.
Then again, when you deal with Hamas who straps bombs on their children for 72 virgins, you realize what sickos they are.
“Shingo, There were also U.N resolutions against Israel condemming them for arresting Eichmann in 1960, the Entebee rescue and bombing Iraq’s nuclear facility in 81.”
A non sequetir. They didn’t arrest him, they tried and excecuted him, rather than hand him over tothe Hague.
“Hamas think all of Israel belongs to them.”
So what? Omert and all Israelis think all of Israel, from Jordan to the sea, but some have said they also support a 2 state solution. Even is Palestine were to be created, Israelis wouldn’t recognizr it’s legitimacy.
“They also think Israel is taking in 5 million Arabs.”
They think it or want it to happen?
“Then again, when you deal with Hamas who straps bombs on their children for 72 virgins, you realize what sickos they are”
As opposed to dealing with Israel, who drops cluster bomsb and white phsohorous on children, who are so enlightened.
Actually Nomi, Hamas called for an end to suicide bombing. Furthermore, they weren’t bombing for Allah, they were bombing as a response to the brutal military occupation Israel put them through. If they were bombing for Allah, then why aren’t Muslims all over the world strappin bombs onto themselves and coming to the state of Israel?
Hamas in call to end suicide bombing:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/09/israel
Meanwhile, Israel has refused to stop dropping 2 ton bombs on Palestinian elementary schools.
Shingo you have no credibility.
You opposed Israel killing Yassin and Rantisi.
You leftist fools are looking pretty dumb talking how Israel was going to be hit with massive terrorism after this murderer Yassin was killed.
Terrorism is down 90% since these sadists Yassin and Rantisi were killed.
Nomi998,
Not only do you have no credibility yourself, you are also a liar. I never even mentioned Yassin and Rantisi, let alone opposing their killings.
Terrorism might be down 90% since these sadists Yassin and Rantisi were killed, but the killing of Palistinians and home demolitions is not.
Shingo, you say, Former Mossad agent, Victor Ostrovsky, in his Book, “By way of Deception”, detailed many “false flag” operations (committing crimes and then making it look like others were responsible, such as Palestinian militants, for Israel’s political advantage), extensive espionage inside the United States, extra-judicial assassinations around the world, just to name a few.
Victor Ostrovsky also claimed the mossad killed JFK.
He also claims the mossad hatched a plan to kill President George Bush in 1991.
Thats why its good i can post on here.
I can show what wackos you people are.
“Victor Ostrovsky also claimed the mossad killed JFK.”
Do you believe Lee Harvey Oswald did it alone?
“He also claims the mossad hatched a plan to kill President George Bush in 1991.”
For all we know that could be true, and consitent with his testimony that Israel sees the entire world as an adversary, including the US.
Keep digging flatg earther.
Futher to Ostrovsky, if he was such a liar is whako, why did the Mossad they to suppress his book for 20 years?
Sorry Nomi. The mossad did take out JFK. israel was the only country to gain from his assassination, and that jack ruby incident was just too obvious. The evidence is admittedly circumstancial, but no one else had as strong a motive (Kennedy was determined to get Dimona inspected and aipac precursor registered as foreign agent, among other things. ben gurion hated him with a passions – one of these days their acrimonious letter exchanges will be de-classified….). This is the only scenario that makes sense, and explains the cover-up too. I am not denying mossad may have had help from mafia figures, but that’s all in a day’s work.
Welcome to the world of conspiracy theories – this is just to get you started. If you are interested, I can give you links but you are not really interested, are you? Thanks for the opportunity to put this out there….
Danaa- And here I was taking you seriously for about a minute and a half. This is not circumstancial evidence. This is evidence of motive, with no evidence whatsoever beyond motive. And no one else had as strong a motive- not the anti Castro Cubans, not the mob, not J Edgar Hoover. No one? I will not take you seriously any longer.
WJ – then read Michael Collins Piper’s “Final Judgment: The Missing Link in the JFK Assassination Conspiracy,” if you can find it, which goes into the exhaustive detail you deride both Danaa and Blankfort for not providing. Amazon link: http://z.pe/ymT
Piper describes how it was done, the players, and the hidden links. As a reviewer points out, even Barry Chamish called Piper’s book credible.
MRW – “Even Barry Chamish”? That’s hardly a recommendation.
Gotta agree with Shmuel here. The book may have some validity, but a recommendation from Mister Conspiracy Theory, Barry Chamish, really doesn’t help.
I dont know anything about Barry Chamish other than that he’s an Israeli journalist.
Shmuel, tree, what’s his story? I mean, what is he a conspiracy theorist about? [Dont need to write me a tome, no need for you to waste your time, just a headline.]
MRW, Chamish is a Canadian-Israeli who peddles conspiracy theories involving just about every Israeli leader (including Netanyahu and Sharon), a few American pols, the Vatican, freemasons and UFOs. The theory that made him famous however – and a darling of the looniest Israeli and Jewish wingnuts – is the one about how Peres really murdered Rabin (and a few others). He is off-the-scale right-wing and believes that all crimes attributed to right-wing Jews are frame-ups, organised by radical lefty anti-Semites like Ariel Sharon.
Shmuel pretty much sums it up. Chamish is also known for taking the Ringworm story, which is a legitimate story of Israeli experimenting with Xrays in the treatment of ringworm with Mizrahi children in the 1950’s, and turning it into a wild Mengele-type conspiracy story complete with payments from American machine manufacturers or some such. Again, his endorsement doesn’t mean that the book lacks credibility, but his endorsement certainly doesn’t add any credibility either and would be taken as a negative by some.
Ohhhhhh…”radical lefty anti-Semites like Ariel Sharon.” Wow. Ha.
I had no idea. Thanks, Shmuel.
WJ – I read excerpts from Piper’s book too (thanks MRW for bringing it in – it escaped my mind entirely) and found the case for mossad being behind it all (with help from “special” friends) more convincing than any other theory I read or seen, including the lone gunman. it’s the only theory that explains jack Ruby BTW, something the warren commission did not deal with much. But even before I became aware of the book the scenario occurred to simply from following the tried and true sherlock holmes dictum:
“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth”
And yes, the Qui Bono played a major part in me coming to the conclusion that mossad is the most likely culprit. When all was said and done, Israel benefited the most with LBJ taking a sharp turn from Kennedy’s policies, which ben gurion – and then Eshkol absolutely hated. The Cubans did not benefit at all (and revenge made no sense in their case). There was also hardly any benefit to the mafia or to J Edgar Hoover – and neither of these entities were in the habit of doing things without clear benefit. Though I wouldn’t put it past Hoover. Who knows, he may have colluded by inaction (the Let-It-Just-Happen conspiracy?).
Now you are quite welcome to not take me seriously. It offends me not. My comments are not offered by way of an audition for Most-Serious-Commenter-Ever prize. But I do consider myself a pretty good arm-chair detective. Piper’s book is speculative as was the warren commission conclusions as was anyone and everyone else. It’s up to each of us to pick the evidence/conclusion most credible to them since none of us are in possession of the full facts. You can join us all in speculating or not. Your choice.
BTW – if you really want to discount my opinions henceforth, here’s some great ammunition for you – I actually believe (about 63% of the time +/- 5%) that we really are simulations, each acting out their program, as individuals and collectives – all playing part in an educational project that future teenager versions of us are playing (our universe is the “teenage boys’ game, BTW. The “girls blew up their universe ages ago….). Now this helps explain everything including the role of the Jews and our fondness for conspiracy theories (it’s a built-in meme us being built in the image of the “creator(s)). Since it is impossible to prove or disprove anything from inside the box, I consider this my personal Matrix religion, and it being a religion requires only faith, not proof. It’s really fun – you should try it sometimes…trust me – everything will suddenly make total sense. On the other hand, I’m not sure you’ll like some of the corollaries…oh well
PS since you are ready now to dismiss me summarily does it mean I don’t have to respond to your comment above? this conspiracy stuff is so tiring!!
Danaa – As the pool player ghost played by Jonathan Winters said on the Twilight Zone episode – “Anything is possible, some things are just more likely than others.”
As a rule I try to avoid JFK conspiracy discussions for 11 months of the year, allowing myself only November as JFK Conspiracy Discussion Month, but I guess I can allow myself some slack since we are only a few days away from November.
The involvement of the Secret Service in the assassination is proved to me by the behavior of the driver of JFK’s car, slowing down when he heard gunshots, riding in a straight line, and only speeding up after turning around and checking to see that JFK’s brains were coming out of his head. I don’t see how Israel’s Mossad could have been close enough to the US Secret Service at the time to be in on it. Cooperation between the Mossad and the US Secret Service would have to be shown as more probable than not for me to consider Israel’s motives as central to the killing.
As far as taking your comments seriously: There are certain names whose comments I avoid as a rule due to past history of negativity. Yours is not one of them.
I used to frequent a park in my old home town where political discussions were common, but since I moved I have not found a park in my vicinity to fulfill a similar need. So this web site serves that purpose. Some of the people in the old park were filled with hate and I knew that dealing with them would yield only toxicity and very little light. Such is the case with some of the commenters here. You are not one of them. You will have to up your toxicity if you want to avoid my comments.
You too, tree.
I have an Israeli friend who swears by him — and I never bothered to check his assertions out — which NOW tells me something. :-)
[Even though, for the record, I get called a conspiracy theorist all the time -- so that label flies over my head -- because I wont buy the official 911 story about jet-fuel fire bringing the towers down. Not that I know who the hell did it, I dont, and I have no theories either. But you gotta be brain-dead, and have never passed a high-school science test to buy that story...especially when the senior legal counsel for the 911 Commission, John Frank, published a book three weeks ago that said the commission was lied to by the government and NORAD, again, without saying what the truth is...and he was pissed. Bob Kerrey said you couldn't be more credible than Frank. Think I'll give my accusers the book for the holidays. :-)]
Thanks, tree.
Victor Ostrovsky is highly believable. His first book was co-written with Claire Hoy, a veteran Canadian parliamentary journalist who has the stature of a David Gergen in Canada. Israel sought to have the US Supreme Court stop publication of the book. It didn’t succeed.
No one reading Ostrovsky’s books can come away thinking he’s a wacko. His books knock your socks off. They’re sober and detailed.
During our successful lawsuit against the Arab Defamation League AKA the ADL, our attorney, Pete McCloskey brought Ostrovsky to California for a deposition. While the ADL’s lawayers were friendly to me and my two colleagues who were suing the ADL for having illegally spied on us (see http://www.adlwatch.org), they looked ready to kill Ostrovsky and had the nerve to demand that he give THEM, the ADL, the papers he had taken with him when he left the Mossad. If one wanted further proof that the ADL works for Israel, that was it. Fortunately, they didn’t get their way.
Now, as to Mossad being behind the JFK killing. I discounted that when I first read it but subsequent investigation and the release of State Dept and White House correspondence from that time, added to other available evidence would make Israel the prime suspect if cui bono was the criteria.
First, both publicly and privately, JFK supported Res.194, the Palestinian right of return either through repatriation or compensation, but the choice would be THEIRS, not the Israelis. That was one red line that Israel would not allow to be crossed.
Second, JFK was adamant about Israel not getting nuclear weapons and was furious at being decived by Ben-Gurion. Stopping Israel from getting nukes was another red line that Israeli would not allow to be crossed. (See Avner Cohen’s Israel and the Bomb)
Finally, for more than a year, JFK’s Justice Dept, under brother Bobby, was trying to force the American Zionist Council, which was the umbrella lobbying group, to register as a foreign agent which would have greatly restricted its activities in the US. Another red line, or let’s call them strikes. A good case can be made that therefore JFK was seen as a threat to Israel and had to go. The Zionists had already gotten away with murdering Count Folke Bernadotte and Lord Moyne. Nothing was going to stop them. After Kennedy came LBJ who was in their pocket, who let them get away with murdering 34 US sailors and wounding 171 more, and there hasn’t been a president since who has had the courage to take them on. Bush Sr. made a brief effort but eventually folded when it came re-election time.
So today their agents are all over the country, dominating the media, in every level of government, including the White House, or running tax-exempt organizations that either lobby for Israel or subsidize settlement building in the West Bank or East Jerusalem, a veritable fifth column waiting to be exposed to an angry public.
Jeffrey Blankfort- Did Israel have motive to kill JFK? Yes, I think you have proven that. Did they have means and opportunity? No, you made no attempt to prove that.
Jimmy Carter wasn’t willing to take on Israel? Zbig Brzezinski might disagree with you. Gerald Ford didn’t announce a reassessment? Ronald Reagan didn’t sell AWAC’s to Saudi Arabia?
Your history is distorted. (understatement)
I’m going to repeat my post to you above, WJ.
You want the answers? Read Michael Collins Piper’s “Final Judgment: The Missing Link in the JFK Assassination Conspiracy,” if you can find it, which goes into the exhaustive detail you deride both Danaa and Blankfort for not providing. Amazon link: http://z.pe/ymT
Piper describes how it was done, the players, and the hidden links. As a reviewer points out, even Barry Chamish called Piper’s book credible.
Hajj Amin Al-Husseini after the 5 Arab armies attacked Israel in 48 :
“I declare a Holy War, My Muslim Brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!”
Yugoslavia requests extradition from Egypt of Amin Al-Husseini for War Crimes [xl] , and Crimes against Humanity. Egyptian government refuses to release him.
On the day that Israel declared its independence (May 15, 1948 ), Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, at Cairo press conference, (reported in the New York Times, May 16, 1948) declared “jihad”, a holy war.
He stated, this will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades”.
“I declare a Holy War, My Muslim Brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!”
He also declared war on the British, and the Palestinians ignored him.
“Yugoslavia requests extradition from Egypt of Amin Al-Husseini for War Crimes [xl] , and Crimes against Humanity. Egyptian government refuses to release him.”
The charges were dropped.
MRW, ofcourse you like Victor Ostrovsky.
You probably like Amira Hamas, Gideon Levy, V, Shindo and every other radical there is.
Amira Hamas Nomi? You Zionist facists really know how to turn on your own when they break ranks don’t you? Who said that independent thought was encouraged in Israel?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni
Many Palestinian Arabs refused to fight in 1948 because of their hatred for al-Husayni.[99]
One recounted that”
“… when Abd al-Qader appeared in the village of Surif, in the Hebron district, to speak before the village elders, there were some who said to him: ‘You murdered eighty mukhtars and you should be fought before we kill the Jews’. Abd al-Qadar replied that he killed traitors. He was told: ‘You are a criminal and you uncle (Hajj Amin) is a criminal and you are all an assembly of traitors’.[100]
Well Nomi you have all of the makings of a fine nut, a Zionist wacko. From believing in ancient fairy tales that give you some sort of divine right, to history skewed beyond recognition. You are the perfect example of intellect truncated by blind ideology, a seed picker from the worst sites run by hacks to weave you’re preconceived prejudices and delusions. Too bad you have chosen to anesthetize yourself with utter nonsense, but it is you’re choice, and you have come here and proved absolutely nothing – just like some others who have come and declared victory when they have crashed and burned for promulgating common, repetitive lies .
Nasser’s Egypt became a safe haven for Nazi war criminals, among them the SS General in charge of the murder of Ukrainian Jewry; he became Nasser’s bodyguard and close comrade. Alois Brunner, another senior Nazi war criminal, found shelter in Damascus, where he served for many years as senior adviser to the Syrian general staff and still resides today.
Sami al-Joundi, one of the founders of the ruling Syrian Ba’ath Party, recalls: “We were racists. We admired the Nazis. We were immersed in reading Nazi literature and books… We were the first who thought of a translation of Mein Kampf. Anyone who lived in Damascus at that time was witness to the Arab inclination toward Nazism.”
What war criminal’s were seeking haven in Egypt, or is there only one?
Another one in Damascus? You’re clutching at straws Nomi. Many so called Nazi war criminals were given safe haven in the US after all. You seem pretty comfortable about that. I gues Ameircan money and weapons has bought your silence.
Come on, dig some more garbage out of Dershowitz rear who had Nazi paratroopers dropping from the skies and supposedly poisoning drinking wells. Like the Mufti was Hitlers right hand man, complete nonsense pulled out of thin air – but you eat it like it is a sumptuous meal. Like the nonsense of all the Palestinians having pictures of Hitler in the homes, what a crock.
Actually you should have followed where the Nazi machine did go to, the USA – now say something bad about America. The men who has the whole Nazi fighting machinery oiled, and the psyops worldview warfare and than ingested it –
THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME
Or the fact that IBM lent its “expertise” for the process of the Final Solution –
IBM AND THE HOLOCAUST
Not to mention fucking Wall Street that financed both sides. No, you have to make stories up that are complete fabrications.
v, i have rebuked all the lies on here.
I have also shown how important it is that Israel never allow the Arabs to take over Israel. Either through terrorism or the stages plan.
http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/publications/dispatch/betweenthelines/Article-27.html
The Late Faisal Husseini: Oslo Is A Trojan Horse
In Husseini’s last interview with the the popular Egyptian newspaper el Arav in 2001.
Husseini said, it is the obligation of all the Palestinian forces and factions to see the Oslo Accords as “temporary” steps or “gradual” goals, because in this way, “We are setting an ambush for the Israelis and cheating them.”
He also differentiated between, “strategic,” long term, “higher” goals, and “political,” short term goals dependent on “the current international establishment, balance of power, capabilities, and variable considerations that change from time to time.” Nevertheless, the Palestinians have been forced to temporarily concentrate on “gradual diplomatic goals.” However, the main goal is the “liberation of all Palestine from the river (Jordan) to the sea (Mediterranean),” even if this requires a struggle that will continue “1,000 years, or generations upon generations.”
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3103391,00.html
Hamas says diplomacy failure, promises to ‘liberate’ Palestine from Mediterranean to Jordan River.
Ynetnews.com
Nizaar Rian, a senior Hamas leader in Gaza, told supporters Thursday diplomacy with Israel was a ´failure and encouraged them to redouble efforts to ´liberate Palestine.
All of Palestine, from the river to the sea, will be liberated by the mujhadeen (martyrs) and their rifles, not by pointless diplomaticmeetings, he said.
No Nomi, like other imbeciles you claim victory in complete defeat, you earned this dark knight –
BOLDNESS IN COMPLETE DEFEAT, DELUSIONAL
You are no better than a puppet on a string with no brain, and you dance to the tune of lying mentors. Not one ounce of decency or shame for such a lying screed.
“I have also shown how important it is that Israel never allow the Arabs to take over Israel.”
Important if you believe in mtiainign an apartheid state, true.
“The Late Faisal Husseini: Oslo Is A Trojan Horse ”
Your link is broken and Faisal Husseini had no credibility within the PLO anyway.
“Nizaar Rian, a senior Hamas leader in Gaza”
And how does Rian’s comments difer from Lieberman, who described the peace process, and peace itself, as dangerous?
Isn’t it disgusting, though, really? That Arabs must never be allowed to take over the land… take it back really… from the European colonists who took it from them by violence and terror in the first place?
This attitude is lebensraum, plain and simple. The victims of last century have come the monsters of this century.
Shingo, you say, they didn’t arrest Eichmann, they tried and excecuted him, rather than hand him over tothe Hague.
The U.N condemmed Israel for kidnapping Eichmann from Argentina.
They said it was against international law to kidnap Eichman. The U.N and all the Arab countries said Israel had to return Eichmann to Argentina.
If Shingo was around back then, he would have demanded Israel send Eichman back to Argentina.
You say, send Eichmann to the Hague.
The U.N would not have prosecuted Eichmann.
They would have sent him free back to Argentina.
Justice was served by Israel for killing this Evil Killer Eichmann.
Nomi,
Yes, kidnapping is illegal under circumstances, even Nazi war criminals, so Israel broke the law. He should have been handed to Argentine authorities.
How do you know the U.N would not have prosecuted Eichmann, or sent him to the ICJ? There is no evidence that they would have sent him free back to Argentina.
Justice was served, but Israel did break the law.
Well Nomi, I am just wondering since you and the Zionists are so hot on Nazi war criminals, how come you did not go after those “obvious” ones in Syria and Egypt that you talk about – you know, the ones that are livng there to “this time” (11:39PM). You want to know why? Because it is bullshit.
Chaos4700, you say.
Isn’t it disgusting, though, really? That Arabs must never be allowed to take over the land… take it back really… from the European colonists who took it from them by violence and terror in the first place?
This attitude is lebensraum, plain and simple. The victims of last century have come the monsters of this century.
WOW this is good. Israel should just lay down like dogs and let the Arabs kill them all as their leaders and sermons tell them to do.
If Israel defends itself, this is racism according to Chaos4700.
Chaos4700 says nothing about the Syrian racist policies against the Kurds.
Actually, what Israel should do is STOP KILLING CHILDREN. Among other things.
Seriously, replace “Israel” with “Germany” and “Arabs” with “Jews” and you could have been Goebbel’s protege. You are exactly why the term “Zionazi” is relevant.
“Chaos4700 says nothing about the Syrian racist policies against the Kurds.” Oh, is that who Israel is emulating you twit?
Hey guys we have another no brainer cut and paste idiot…LOL
Isn’t it amazing? The Zionist capacity to make human shields out of any tragedy is as staggering in size as it is appalling in its self-centering.
The idea of a one state solution is appealing until one opens one’s eyes and views the reality of Lebanon, for example. Do you, Adam Horowitz, feel that Lebanon is so enticing that the Jews of Israel should wish to repeat the experience that we see happening there?
This would be the same Lebanon that Israel has invaded and bombed and waged assassination campaigns within… how many times now, exactly?
Gee, I did not know Israel had a history of being attacked by Western Hegemony like Lebanon and split into factions by subversion. Is that why you chose Lebanon wondering jew? Does Israel also make its airline stewardess dye their hair blond? Let alone what chaos said about the numerous invasions, and also subversion by Mossad agents to make tension spike.
All right, I’ll leave Lebanon out of the discussion.
The proposal for a one state solution is utopian and blind to reality. Name one country that was amalgamated after eighty years of conflict and turned into a workable society.
South Africa suffered under apartheid, and they’ve worked pretty well at getting over their differences.
I love how you nutjobs like to refer to places like Yugoslavia to try and dismantle the 1 state solution.
What about 700 years, lets not forget Ireland –
TIOCFAIDH AR LA
James Bradley- apparently civility is not your forte tonight either.
South Africa has a ratio of approximately 9:1 of blacks and mixed to whites. With such a proportion a one state solution might be possible. Meanwhile the ratio of Jews to Palestinians is approximately 1:1 and that is not given to a one state solution.
v..- I’m not sure what you are alluding to in reference to Northern Ireland. Currently it seems that Northern Ireland is still a part of Great Britain. What this has to do with the proposed one state solution in Israel/Palestine, I don’t know. When Northern Ireland disassociates itself from Great Britain let me know.
Neither Hamas nor Fatah are currently promoting a one state solution. It is merely people on the sidelines promoting it. When either Hamas or Fatah get serious about a one state solution let me know. In which case I have an idea for them. Give a green light to East Jerusalem Arabs to become Israeli citizens. At this point of time it is prohibited by official Hamas/Fatah policy. When they change that policy we will know that they are serious about one state. Until then it is not serious.
How would you suggest Hamas and Fatah pomoting a one state solution beyiond stating that they support it?
Meeshal, Hamas’ most senior politician, has given suport for it. How coudl you describe him as a person ” on the sidelines”. Whiel Isrlae have dismissed the concept entirely,k how do you sugegst Hamas or Fatah get serious about any solution?
It is not Hamas/Fatah policy that is preventing East Jerusalem Arabs to become Israeli citizens, but Israel. For cryhign out loud, Israel is deperting children born in Israle in case they inter marry with Jews.
As always, as with Richard, it’s always up to the Palestinians to prove they are serious and convinve the Israelis who are blameless and have no reason to address their own policies.
WJ, you’re a joke! Your argument was thoroughly trounced and you lash out wildly for any sort of flimsy rationale that you can cling to.
This would be the same Hamas and Fatah that the US State Department orchestrated a civil war for?
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804
You should have quite while you were not so terribly behind. The fact that your argument keeps tipping over under the burden of its contrived nature is entertaining, though, at least.
WJ – The proposal for ANY solution in I/P is utopian. I believe the two-state solution (as it has been presented so far) however, is even less realistic than the one-state, because it is “utopian” only for one side – seriously addressing Israel’s security concerns and desire to maintain Jewish hegemony within the Jewish state, but failing to adequately address Palestinian security, the rights of refugees, Palestinian sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the rights of Palestinian citizens of Israel.
As I have explained in previous discussions here, I don’t believe either solution is realistic, but aspiring to a one-state solution establishes the principle of complete equality and democracy as a basic approach to the entire situation, affording immediate benefits, whether or not a comprehensive solution is ever achieved.
I am not surprised that you do not follow me regarding the parallels between Ireland and the Israeli-Palestinian issue.
“As Israeli Jews did to Palestinians, Protestants institutionalized their own culture and religion as the official creed and violently suppressed expressions of nationalist identity. In the words of its first prime minister, Northern Ireland’s seat of government at Belfast’s Stormont Castle was a “Protestant parliament for a Protestant people.” Catholics faced systematic discrimination in jobs and housing.
Nationalists launched a civil rights movement in the 1960s inspired by the one in the US. Protestant unionists violently resisted demands to share power and reform, but the numerical growth and assertiveness of the nationalist Catholic population within Northern Ireland made such intransigence untenable.
In 1972, Britain sent in troops and imposed direct rule. During 30 years of “The Troubles,” 3,700 people died at the hands of the Irish Republican Army (IRA), Protestant militias, British forces and others.
The Mitchell-led Belfast Agreement ended formal Protestant hegemony in favor of equality, mitigating partition’s injustices. It promised that government power “shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people” and guaranteed “just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities.”
Decades of bloody conflict left deep social divisions. But a framework for nondiscriminatory democratic governance has allowed nationalists and unionists within Northern Ireland to begin to shed their siege mentalities. While formal partition of Ireland remains, it is disappearing on the ground as anyone can live, work and move freely, and official cross-border bodies are integrating the infrastructure and economies of the two jurisdictions on the island of Ireland.
The power-sharing executive in Belfast, led by staunchly nationalist Sinn Fein (closely affiliated with the IRA) and the hardline Democratic Unionist Party, was once as inconceivable as a government made up of members of Hamas and Israeli politicians would be today. US diplomacy played a key role by putting pressure on the stronger parties –the British government and Protestant unionists — in favor of the weaker nationalist side. Instead of shunning Sinn Fein the US, prodded by the Irish American lobby, insisted it be brought into the process.
By 2010, Palestinians will outnumber Israeli Jews in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip combined. The two groups can no more be totally separated than Protestant unionists and Catholic nationalists in Ireland.
Like Irish nationalists, Palestinians will never recognize the “right” of another group to discriminate against them. Like Protestant unionists did, Israeli Jews insist on their own state. Israel’s “solution” is to cage Palestinians into ghettos — like Gaza — and periodically bomb them into submission just so Israeli Jews, their relative numbers dwindling, can artificially maintain a Jewish state.
If Mitchell is allowed to apply Northern Ireland’s lessons, then there may be a way out. But he goes to Jerusalem with few of the advantages he brought to Belfast. The Obama administration remains committed for now to the failed partition formula of “a Jewish state” and a “Palestinian state” and maintains the Bush administration’s misguided boycott of Hamas, which overwhelmingly won Palestinian elections in 2006. And the Israel lobby — much more powerful than its Irish American counterpart — warps US policy to favor the stronger side, an intransigent Israel committing war crimes. If these policies don’t change, Mitchell’s efforts will be wasted and escalating violence will fill the political vacuum.”
CAN MITCHELL TURN JERUSALEM INTO BELFAST?
There are plenty of illustrations WJ that can be applied well to the Palestinian Israeli issue. Like what happened in Belgium, the cantons in Switzerland, in fact the only limitation, because there is no drought of examples of working these issues out in a peaceful one state scenario, the limitation being the will of Israel to implement the lessons. Or, a complete ignorance of the history of nations being clung to disingenuously.
This bears repeating.
Personally, whenever I see or hear of Israeli Jews joining with Palestinians to protect Palestinian rights I have hope that eventually the majority in Israel can reach that same state of understanding and mutual respect. Call me a dreamer.
V….great exposition of the Ireland solution and what allowed it to come about.
One factor you left out is that BOTH parties tired of the status quo, which involved perpetutal state of conflict. Unfortunately, Israelis have not reached that point yet because for most of them, the status quo works just fine, and the price they pay is acceptable (slight loss of prestige? big deal…). Their military leaders (the only kind they have) work hard to assure that the price paid will remain low at home, while the politicians try to contain the damage abroad.
That is why BDS is highly significant as is the Goldstone report. Both represent a tangible cost of continuing education, a cost that neither military notr politicians can readily derail.
But it’ll take a lot more time for BDS to work its way through. And during that time the palestinians will increasingly suffer. I see danger in allowing too much time to pass before serious resolutions can be pursued. It is for that reason that I believe the palestinians themselves need to bring out the ultimate ammunition: agitating for equal right in a single democratic state. For this Abbas is not the right leader, for obvious reasons. His instincts are all wrong and can’t be repaired. The same may be true of zionists, including j streeters.
I wish the palestinians took the irish lesson to heart. It kind of shows the way….just as you described.
Yes, Danaa, its a great exposition, and I think you have added some important points about the need for BDS. It may cheer you to know that v’s quoted exposition comes from Palestinian-American Ali Abunimah, who is a supporter of the one state solution and has written One Country: A Bold Proposal to End the Israeli-Palestinian Impasse
That’s an interesting and relevant point WJ (unlike silly talk about the “Saladin precedent”). Lebanon is a very troubled society, and not only because of Israeli interference or the Palestinian refugee problem – although these things have contributed significantly to the country’s instability. I think we have a lot to learn from Lebanon’s experience – particularly in terms of power-sharing between communities. Although a degree of cultural autonomy for the respective communities is important, its structural translation into political power bases seems to have been a big mistake. The most important thing to keep in mind, whether we are discussing one state or two states in Israel/Palestine is that the solution most likely to succeed (knowing full well that neither actually stand much chance) will be the one that offers the greatest possible equality to Jews and Palestinians.
Since Wandering Jew asked me about Carter and Ford, I suppose an answer is required. Carter did take on Begin when Israel invaded Lebanon in 1978 and told the old terrorist three months later that if Israel would not withdraw aid would be suspended and Begin withdrew. But after Camp David when Begin announced that he would build more settlements after promising Carter that he wouldn’t and Carter complained, Begin told him to take a hike. When Andy Young was exposed by the Israelis after having met with PLO rep Zehdi Terzi, he had to throw Young to the wolves. (Young has since learned who is the boss in this part of the world and he refularly genuflects to Israel when asked to do so).
As for Ford, yes he threatened a reassessment of US-Israel relations, and on Kissinger’s advice held back delivery of some weapons for six months, but after AIPAC got 76 senators to sign a letter telling Ford not to meddle with Israel, the old gum chewer backed down. It wasn’t the first time that the lobby got three quarters of the senate to do their bidding and it certainly wasn’t the last as Obama found our before he met with Netanyahu.
Back in 1907, the muckraking journalist, David Graham Phillips wrote a book entitled The Treason of the Senate which exposed the corruption and selling out to the large corporations by that group of gangsters who at the time were elected by the vote of state legislatures and not the people.
Today, we need another book, and we’ll call it The Treason of Congress. On Monday those bastards will be voting on a resolution to censor the Goldstone Report. Wonder if even one of them has read it?
Jeffrey Blankfort distorted history again. Ford’s threat of reassessment of policy led to the second disengagement agreement between Israel and Egypt, signed on September 4, 1975. The gum chewer did not back down, he succeeded.
It seems that Jeffrey Blankfort is a propagandist rather than a historian. One shoul