Genius appearance by Glenn Greenwald on MSNBC here. Arianna Huffington, fresh back from Israel, is a militant talking points mama. "Iran is challenging the existential presence of Israel," she says, and denying the Holocaust too. Iran has threatened to bomb Israel. (Has it? I don’t believe so.) Greenwald says, A lot of people make threats, John McCain sang songs about bombing Iran during his campaign. Then Greenwald makes the following points:
–Israel refuses to belong to the Nonproliferation treaty, refuses to allow the IAEA to examine its stockpile,
–Iran has invaded and bombed no one in the last couple centuries, while the US has invaded and bombed and occupied both its neighbors, and Israel has attacked Syria, Lebanon and "slaughtered" large numbers of people in Gaza.
Who’s the real threat in the region? he asks. Wonderful to see this making the cable shows. Where is Chris Matthews?
Iran certainly threatened to bomb Israel, but not with words.
It ran missile tests on Yom Kippur with Tel Aviv range rockets, two days after announcing that it had the second Qum refinement plant.
Greenwald cites talking points as you refer.
“Its not fair”.
“What are the consequences, if….”
“That doesn’t matter, its not fair”.
(Sure it does matter. Better that things are unfair but without war.)
Oh, I forgot, Witty. You expect the while gentile world to come to a screeching halt during Jewish holidays.
And of course, you completely ignore the fact that the US and Israel have both repeatedly threatened to bomb Iran with words long before those missile tests.
So how do you cope with the situation that things are unfair and we have war? Because since the day they declared independence, Israel has been in a continuous state of war with the Palestinian natives.
Dont waste your time, Chaos.
I know but it’s just so hard for me to pass that up. It’s like I’m a white blood cell and I perceive Witty’s comments as a pathogen to the debate here.
It was certainly intentionally timed, to send a message, a message of “deterrance” or a message of “threat”.
Which do you think was conveyed?
When Iran wants to send a message, it tests a missile and nobody dies.
When Israel wants to send a message, it sends a thousands of airstrikes and hundreds of children are slaughtered.
I find it a little hard to come down harshly on Iran, considering.
Exactly, and that is why Witty FAILS every single time w/ commentators here. We’ve seen your stale, tired, hasbara OVER and OVER.
Chaos summed it up perfectly. He compared what Israel does to what Iran does.
Both ‘rattling’ the cages so to speak. And the former goes out and kills 1400ish people in 22 days. With virtual diplomatic immunity. With complete support from the Western world and the mainstream Western intelligentsia.
Witty, you are a phony.
When Hamas sends a message, civilians are shelled.
Israel’s message was rationally, “enough”.
I’m glad it stopped. Its a tragedy that they couldn’t just decide to do that themselves, instead baited to the inevitable overreaction.
Such is escalatory war. Better that WE not do that.
“When Hamas sends a message, civilians are shelled.”
And how many died, Witty? How many died?
You know I don’t like to say this, but you really are an evil person, Witty. You personify the old Zionist belief that a hundred Palestinian lives aren’t a Jewish fingernail.
More than was necessary or desirable. And, as it directly resulted in the necessary Israeli military response, a great deal died, Chaos.
It can always be claimed that somethign it “timed” to send a message. And what may I ask, is wroinig with sending a message of “deterrance”? Are you not in favor of countries having the right to defend themselves?
“When Hamas sends a message, civilians are shelled.”
Civlians are shelled even when Hamas are not sending a mesage. Palestinian civlians that is. Israel fired 7,700 shells into Gaza over the 12 months after it withdrew.
Israel’s message is always, “we dare you”.
RW, in June 2008, Israel ran war games to demonstrate to Iran that it intended to launch a first strike. This is exactly what Glenn Greenwald was referring to when he said that if a mere test fire of a missile is a war crime, then Israel is a greater threat.
From the Boston Globe, link to boston.com
witty quote … “Better that things are unfair but without war.”
witty has it occurred to you that wars usually take place when things are as unfair?? think about it…. i don’t know if you have…
Stop lying Ricahrd,
Iran NEVER threatened to bomb Israel. They never used the word “bomb” or threatened to attack Israel.
Yom Kippur is of no consequence to Iran, and as Greenwald pointed out, every country conducts missile tests.
“Genius appearance”?
He sounded like a hysterical ideolog to me.
Arianna sounded convincing if anybody.
…and that, boys and girls, is how you spot a fake liberal.
Chaos,
I used to much enjoy your wit and wisdom on the huff.
I got banned two days ago straight after posting the msnbc link of dame Arianna with her fresh hazbara-holiday glow, talking I-ran this and I-ran that; clearly and most unusually, stumped by good old Glenn Greenwald’s sanity and force of argument.
So I’m out coz it seems I committed an ‘ad hominem’ against brand Arianna.
What a robot she turned out to be.
Really? Why don’t you analyze Arianna’s rhetoric for us?
What kind of comment is that anyway? You don’t explain WHY he’s hysterical as you describe. Then you make your simple, typical, one-liner.
Explain to us.
Was it when her justification for pressure was IRAN’S (meaning EVERYONE, she didn’t specify) ‘Holocaust denial’?
How insane is that? The PA is led by a guy who wrote his doctrinal thesis on denying the Holocaust happened.
“He sounded like a hysterical ideolog to me.”
You mean he made perfect sense?
“Arianna sounded convincing if anybody.”
Greenwald wiped he floow with her.
I’m a huge GG fan and think he did a great job on this appearance, but I think he missed the opportunity to challenge the notion that Iran actually threatened to use force on Israel. While the correct translation of Ahmadinejad’s words is the subject of endless controversy, at worst he said that he hoped that Israel would disappear. He never threatened to use Iran’s military to achieve that end, unlike Israeli leaders’ far more explicit threats of force against Iran. Ahmadinejad has also said repeatedly that the future of Palestine/Israel should be determined by the people who live there, regardless of their religion, which he apparently assumes would result in the end of Israel as a Jewish state. I have never seen anything inconsistent with his claim that the demise of Israel he seeks is a peaceful transformation to a state of equal citizens, and not violent genocidal destruction by a foreign military. It’s easy to see why Netanyahu and co. scream about the latter; it’s hard to recruit opposition to equal citizenship and self-determination, much less incite the hysteria that is prerequisite to launching an attack on Iran.
And while Phil is understandably encouraged by Greenwald’s appearance on MSNBC, let’s hope it’s not an aberration. I’ve been reading him for quite some time but never saw his face before.
I suspect that was a strategic choice on Glenwald’s part. When you’re dealing with a hostile forum — and that was a hostile forum, the host allowed Johnathan (didn’t catch his last name) to accuse Greenwald of endorsing Iran seeking nuclear weapons… when there’s no real evidence that it is… and then turns around and smacks Greenwald for accusing the other two of characterizing Iran as an evil threat (which they were) — you’re better off attacking the faulty line of rationale, oddly enough, than the outright lie.
That is to say, Greenwald made the case that even if Iran did threaten Israel with force, that doesn’t put Iran on any different footing than Israel or the US. So it doesn’t matter if that’s true or not, the reasoning is faulty either way.
I think from a tactical perspective it is easier to explain that Ahmadinejad doesn’t have the authority (let alone the means) to strike Israel. Just liken him to Biden.
That is way too entertaining on so many levels.
If that was a hostile forum, then he is a very lucky young man.
The forum gave him time without interruption, and without insult at him.
The moderator correctly pointed out his false use of “YOU” said.
Radical.
…and the moderator totally failed to point out that Greenwald did not, in fact, support Iran getting nuclear weapons as his rhetorical opponent stated as if it were matter of fact.
Nice to know you and that moderator have the same conspicuous strain of hearing problems.
Radical?
You are no one to deem another ‘radical’.
The POINT, Witty, was that everyone there was insinuating that Iran was UNIQUE within the context of this issue.
It is NOT. Iran is only a threat to US-Israeli hegemonic goals in the region.
Iran would NEVER first-strike Israel or the US w/ a daisy, let alone a damn nuke.
Only liars and Israel firsters (Citizen is absolute right to call you a Jew who is ‘protected by goy cops’ – that is the level of your commitment to the country you live in) are rooting for a war w/ Iran and more conflict.
Iran has a deniability position, not a “no first strike” one.
Please consider Hezbollah shelling and Hamas shelling, with Iranian training, funds, encouragement if not orders.
Yes, yes, yes, Witty. Keep extolling to us how al Qaeda — oh, wait, sorry, I mean Hamas and Hezbollah, are in cahoots with that evil mastermind Saddam Hussein — oh! Sorry. It’s Mahmoud Ahmedinejad this time around, isn’t it?
Chaos,
Respond to what I say when you are talking to me, not the “mass media”.
“The forum gave him time without interruption, and without insult at him.”
On the contrary.
It’s interesting to note, in this context, how Greenwald’s slap-down of Huffington ended: the “moderator,” a MSNBC hack, intervened on the pretext that Greenwald had somehow impugned the “integrity” of the media by accusing them of demonizing Iran – while, at that very moment, unbeknownst to Greenwald, MSNBC was running scary captions underneath his image as he was speaking: “Iran: Defiant and Dangerous”!
What hypocrites!
“Please consider Hezbollah shelling and Hamas shelling, with Iranian training, funds, encouragement if not orders. ”
Yes it’s considered and it is dismissed as Israeli propaganda.
During the 2006 war, Hezbollah killed mainly IDF soliders, while Israel killed mainly civlians.
It’s also important to reiterate Iran’s No First Strike policy.
Yes, Glenn is one of the best ever, which is why he ranks usually at the top from among all the bloggers. You must however, have missed his appearances on, eg, Rachel Maddow’s show (twice, I think). He also appeared several times on Democracy Now and a couple of other shows I forgot now.
Agree that Glenn did great– very succinct and crisp and forceful. Since he’s a great guest, there ought to be a way to lure him away from Brazil, so in the future he can be in the studio and not doing a blogginheads thing from his living room. It might make the difference of tens of thousands of lives.
Glenn left the Upper East Side of Manhattan for Brazil on purpose; he speaks Portuguese, and he probably made multo bucks from his books. I think being out of the country gives him a perspective. He has certainly become much more vocal about international matters since he left. While he was here, he was more of a national news guy.
As I understand it, Glenn is homosexual and his SO (marriage partner) is Brazilian. Laws in the US that prevent him from bringing his partner here, and having his marriage recognized in the US is what keeps him returning to Brazil. This is not a big secret. He has discussed some of this before in his Salon column, I think.
Why would he want to leave Brazil. Great music and art, it’s an emerging nation, unlike America sinking into the La Brea Tar Pits.
And the wonderful, fabulous, Brazilian joie-de-vivre. I loved the Brazilians in NYC. They were hysterical. You’d invite them to a party on Friday night, they’d forget, show up laughing on Saturday night with bottles of Brazilian booze (can never spell it), and life would go on.
Cachaca? Though if you’re bringing a gift, Remy is appreciated.
Cachaca. The best drink ever invented. Until you’ve had four and you’re talking to the patterns on the linoleum, or someone’s ankle.
And now Brazil got the Olympics too. Good choice, IMO. Probably everyone else’s too. Ole!
As I wrote elsewhere on this site, the utter insanity by Huffington et al to say that because a nation refuses to accept another nation’s history that that is the basis to bomb the non-believer. Utter balls out fucking insanity. Especially when nukes are involved.
We are a nation of idiots to buy that drivel. Russia and the US threatened each other during the Cold War, but no one would have talked about a pre-emptive strike against Russia. Israel has become insane, and an enormous danger to the world. I dont give a shit what religion Israel has, the 60-year-old country is an amateur on the world scene and needs to corralled and contained.
It might be insanity MRW, but it’s well-funded insanity.
You got that right. I, however, think there is a gigantic sleeping tiger under the rug of America. And that is what will awaken if we bomb Iran, or have anything to do with it. Arianna is rich; she part of the media control now, especially since coming on board with Israel’s message; she is also not in touch with what is lurking under that rug.
The Christian Zionists may nurse their religious fantasies of the Messiah returning to Israel (and all the Jews converting in gratitude), but if Iran is bombed and these JesusZios have to pay $5-$10/gal for gas, and their food costs go through the roof because no one can pay to transport it, and treasury dollars are diverted to make Netanyahoo King of the Hill in a war where American soldiers die while more American citizens starve this winter and die from lack of heat, you can kiss the Jesus war goodbye for a good number of these Evangelicals. There is a big backlash against the warring JesusZios inside the fundamentalist Christian Church right now. I predict a backlash against Israel would turn into seething anti-semitism here. When people are living in tents and under bridges and in shelters, lacking proper food and sanitation, they are not likely to give a good goddam for linguistic niceties of distinguishing between Israeli citizens or the Jewish appellation that Netanyahoo insists the Palestinians recognize all Israelis as.
I do fear that might be the consequences, myself. The false charges of anti-Semitism that get thrown around worry me because they give shelter to real anti-Semites. And right now, the white quasi-Christian right wing militancy is the elephant in the room of the United States that nobody is talking about.
Is there the backlash you mentioned already in progress? I haven’t seen signs of it but then again, I don’t exactly have a perspective that lets me look very deeply into the fundamentalist Christian community.
Yeah, there is a backlash. Here’s an ex-Evangelical who’s doing it. link to
Also Ron Parsley, and the guy who used to work for Bush on the faith-based initiative who quit and squealed.
I make the rounds checking these guys out. I also keep my finger on the JesusZios via jewsonfirst.org.
These types of fanatical asses have not learned since the Puritans were tossed out on their collective ear from Parliament! Same shit different day
“Is there the backlash you mentioned already in progress? I haven’t seen signs of it but then again, I don’t exactly have a perspective that lets me look very deeply into the fundamentalist Christian community. ”
From my personal vantage point, I have seen no backlash yet in that particular community. But I have seen clear evidence of it in the comment sections of some publications such as The Washington Post (which does not exercise strict censorship).
v…, not really complaining, but the above reminds me that Jews are not the only people who are targets of sweeping bigotry, extending over centuries. Nor the only people who have been victims of pogroms with a religious “justification”.
I got it! Someone called Israel the “World’s Oldest Victims” yesterday. I thought we needed an “R” word in there so that the acronym is WORM.
Here it is: the World’s Oldest Reckless Victims.
I have to ask… where are you getting the ‘M’ from exactly?
Duh…..it sunk into my head as a “M” last night, and I didn’t look. I didn’t think. You’re right; how stupid of me.
MRW, I’m getting WORVied about you!
The other thing that is amazing about the video is when Glen stated “…suggesting that Iran is this evil force for doing things…” Than he was overridden verbally and interrupted by the host. While ALL of the time this conversation is taking place the have this missile test being played over and over and over again. Who the hell do they think they are kidding? All of the MSM is a garbage dump for these types of stunts and than quick backtracking denial, it is like one big compost heap – and not for good either, all it incites is hatred and fear for an emotional ejaculatory effect.
The MSM constitute a giant propaganda machine controlled by Israeli interests.
Meh. I think it’s a bit more complicated than that, but for all intents and purposes, the core of your statement is correct — Israel sings, and the mainstream American media dances to it.
The thing that really really struck me is how they played that missile test over and over and over again, and how the missile test was being framed as some sort of overt crime or attack… and Glen has to point out that if missile tests were crimes, then the US and Israel would have to be at the front of the docket for prosecution.
So few voices of truth and sanity in the media like that anymore…
And never showing clips of the recent Israeli war games, explicitly designed to model an assault on Iran.
v. you are spot-on here! The camera kept swooping in on the graphic on the desk of the missile launching (which was referred to by the guy who came in and accused Glenn of ignoring reality) over and over. And how about the choice of the name of the segment? IRAN: DEFIANT OR DANGEROUS? Um, what kind of choice is that? That said, the fact that Glenn got so many good points in was astounding. The host failed to follow Zionist protocol, by cutting Glenn off too late in the segment. Good God, he even managed to get the Goldstone Report mentioned on MSNBC! Gotta make certain that’s edited out for the West Coast audience.
The name of the segment was actually “IRAN: DEFIANT BUT HOW DANGEROUS?”
Displayed on the desk (next to the repeating missile footage) is however the intriguingly different “title”: “IRAN: DEFIANT BUT DANGEROUS?” — with the “how” ommitted (and also the question mark barely visible!) Innocent mistake? Or do they really play these games?!
If someone attacks you via a war crime (missiles at civilians), how do you recommend responding?
Say, if you were a state responsible for the safety of your citizens?
The classic Gleiwitz scenario in effect. Hats off to you, Witty, you win the ultimate irony award.
If someone drives you out of your homeland, using extreme violence, resulting in the massacring of entire villages. If someone ethnically cleanses 600-800K of your people from your homeland as well as you and your family. If someone continues this ethnic cleansing right up until the present.
If someone mocks your religion and your identity. If someone says you don’t exist. If someone openly discriminates you. If someone violates you basic human rights with impunity. If someone refuses to treat you like a human being.
If someone kills you at a ratio of 5+ to 1 (civilians in general) and 10 to 1 (kids). If someone occupies your land. If someone with the 4th most powerful military in the world is oppressing you but behaves like a victim.
Then how do you respond?
Witty, you are a phony.
In Israel’s shoes, what would you do?
That question allows you to demonstrate your superior proposal. Rise to it, don’t shrink from it.
“If someone attacks you via a war crime (missiles at civilians), how do you recommend responding?”
The same way Hamas and Hebolah did, by firing back.
“Say, if you were a state responsible for the safety of your citizens? ”
A civlian and responsible state would not instigate wars that put citizens at risk. Israel is not one of those.
Glenn was great although having those misiles going off and the inflammatory words in those boxes going by while he was blowing holes in the unsubstantiated claims that are repeated about Iran was surrea.
On the other hand Arianna Huffington repeating the debunked claim that Iran ‘wants to wipe Israel off the map” Christ does she read? Professor Juan Cole debunked that false claim several years ago. Direct translation “zionism will vanish from the page of history” to “Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map” did Arianna get her script from Bill Kristol or what?
Glenn ripped it up.
Chris Matthews was the first to ask “will Israel attack Iran’ Matthews also was one of the only MSMer’s to challenge Bill Kristol , Frum, Ledeen and the rest.
But has not touched the Goldstone report, or had Flynt Leverett, Scott Ritter of Juan Cole on to discuss Iran. Come on MSNBC…you finally had Glenn on now bring on the rest of the informed and brilliant Leverett, Ritter and Cole
Arianna sounds like she is carrying water for the Israeli firster warmongers
She is, dude. She has been co-opted by Zionist private equity money. Fred Harman of Oak Partners is a well-known Israel-firster and the $25 million Arianna got to boost HuffPo was basically signing her soul of neutrality away. HuffPo has had a significant shift toward pro-Zionist views ever since the funding.
link to techcrunch.com
Thanks for that link, Oscar. I’ve been looking for that.
here’s a question – what would you (or any of us) do for a cool 25M? we know what we would like to do, but that’s not the same as it being forked over.
Still, arianna has not been poor for some time. In here cae, I’d say she sold her soul for a pocketful of change.
This is a quote from the Iranian foreign press service, whose JOB it is to translate into English. If they got it wrong, then Iran got it wrong. It was not a mistranslation perse as in “innaccurate”, but a choice on their part what to release to the world.
In repeating the falsehood, “he never said that”, you enable (in the addictive) sense Iran’s saber-rattling.
Its not necessary to do that to be able to dissent, or to propose alternative relations with Iran. It is necessary to see clearly though.
link to web.archive.org
Tehran, Oct 26 – Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Wednesday called for Israel to be “wiped off the map”.
“The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world,” the President told a conference in Tehran entitled ‘the world without Zionism’.
“The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land,” he said.
“As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map,” said Ahmadinejad, referring to the late founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Imam Khomeini.
Addressing some 4,000 students gathered in an interior ministry conference hall, Ahmadinejad also called for Palestinian unity, resistance and a point where the annihilation of the Zionist regime will come.
“The Islamic umma (community) will not allow its historic enemy to live in its heartland,” he said.
Regarding the Zionist regime’s retreat from the Gaza Strip he said, “we should not settle for a piece of land”.
“Anyone who signs a treaty which recognises the entity of Israel means he has signed the surrender of the Muslim world,” Ahmadinejad said.
“Any leaders in the Islamic umma who recognise Israel face the wrath of their own people.”
Regarding the prolonged conflict between the Islamic Ummah and the Zionist regime, Ahmadinejad said “It dates backs hundreds of years. Sometimes Islam has advanced. Sometimes nobody was winning. Unfortunately over the past 300 years, the world of Islam has been in retreat”.
“One hundred years ago the last trench of Islam fell, when the oppressors went towards the creation the Zionist regime. It is using it as a fort to spread its aims in the heart of the Islamic world.”
“This is a quote from the Iranian foreign press service, whose JOB it is to translate into English. If they got it wrong, then Iran got it wrong.”
Yes they got it wrong.
Here is the correct word for word translation by Juan Cole, an expert is Farsi.
‘I have a suggestion for my readers. Every time you see a newspaper article that alleges that Ahmadinejad said that Israel should be wiped off the face of the map, please write the editor. Say that this idiom does not exist in Persian, and that what Ahmadinejad actually said was, “This occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time.” And you can cite me.”
link to juancole.com
Here is the transcript from El Baradei’s press conference in Iran today
he does sort of target Israel here
Transcript of the IAEA Director Generals remarks at the Joint Press Conference with the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran 4 October 2009
link to iaea.org
Israel and the United States threaten to bomb Iran all the time. Iran is targeted with the world’s most dangerously accurate nuclear ballistic missiles. Iran, unable to bomb or strike Israel and the US cannot threaten, and has not threatened to bomb Israel. Iran has threatened to retaliate if bombed, attacked or invaded, because it receives so many threats from US and Israeli politicians, as any nation would.
Threatening can be nonverbal, like when Israel makes bombing runs that mimic the miles and flight patterns they would have to use to bomb Iran, but Iran has not made any military threats against Israel. Iran not only does not have the capacity to bomb Israel, it lacks the will, being an unaggressive nation. Iran has never used offensive action since the Revolution, and lacks any capacity, as well as not demonstrating any desire, to expand its influence or acquire additional territory with arms like Israel and the US.
Iran’s defense of its revolution and of militarily oppressed peoples within its sphere of influence threatens the strategies of Israel and the US to dominate the region, which is why the alarm about a ‘threat’ from Iran is rung so mendaciously. The greater the threat to the rulers’ plans, the louder the message about a fictitious existential threat to the nations they control. What is remarkably fascinating is people who are well educated and/or have attended prestigious learning institutions, invest a good part of their selves into these lies. People who should be aware of the horror of the policies of their democratic countries wholeheartedly approve of them, and obstruct any attempt to question the legitimacy of the platitudes so carefully crafted to manipulate them.
Great piece, tommy.
“Arianna sounds like she is carrying water for the Israeli firster warmongers.”
Well of course she does Kathleen (not just “sounds like”), that is where most of her money comes from. Check her funding sources.
I know I read that article by Justin Raimando
link to original.antiwar.com
But comments over at Huff Po have really opened up over there on the I/P conflict far more than at Crooks and Liars (blog clog when it comes to the I/P conflict, Goldstone report etc) This topic is also basically closed down at Firedoglake. Oh a few post at Seminal but the heavy hitting bloggers over there Jane Hamsher, Marcy Wheeler will basically not touch this issue.
But comments over at Huff Po have been coming on strong and well informed.
But Arianna still carrying the I lobbies water
Has that been your impression lately? Comments were pretty accessible before January of this year, and in my opinion Huffington Post shifted rather noticably in the wake of Operation Cast Lead — to the point where at least one favored (and particularly vicious) commentor would literally net 40% or more of the approved comments and contrary voices would be shut out of the debate.
Admittedly, I gave up on Huffington Post. The moderators were letting some incredibly nasty anti-Arab epithets fly right through comment moderation and I finally got so disgusted with how hard they smacked down on anti-occupation posters (and a number of us got some sideways comments in about that, to let each other know we were all seeing it)
OK Kathleen, than what do those right on passionate people have to do? I mean when the spokesperson for the blog gets up on national TV like this and does nothing but bark neocon? Do they want to be affiliated with a site who’s spokesperson says things like we just watched? You say its a great source, and certainly those who post the truth are uncompromising – why give her the satisfaction of such great posting while she does everything in her power to tear it down with her appearances? Just some questions.
the best way to respond to hissy posts zionist position is to boycott the site… she’s a propaganda outlet for zionism… why support that unless you are for zionism??