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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Wow. Zionism isn’t just racism… apparently it’s naked greed as well.
I’m concerned about calling pensions for the remaining holocaust survivors naked greed. With all due respect.
This money ain’t going to holocaust survivors. Are you dense?
I believe it is indeed justice to give those who suffered unfairly, by either having their property confiscated, forced to do slave labor, etc receive reparations, because reparations are the closest thing these people will ever get to justice.
Furthermore, these Jews that were forced into slave labor camps should be reimbursed. However, the money must go to the actual victims and not be reaped as a dividend by the state of Israel, unless the survivors specify so.
Yes, I agree. Both Palestinians and Jews are allowed to dwell on the past.
Agreed, wondering jew, “both Palestinians and Jews are allowed to dwell on the past.”
What they are NOT allowed to do is to invent and propagandize a dishonest narrative of the past that does not fully represent the reality of the behaviours of all parties involved.
“What they are NOT allowed to do is to invent and propagandize a dishonest narrative of the past that does not fully represent the reality of the behaviours of all parties involved”
Okay, let’s forget about the past and look forward to the future!
This is a rather ominous statement -
“Seizures of property from Jews continued through the 1930s, culminating in the Holocaust.”
Makes you wonder what is in store for the Palestinians.
The only problem with the reparations is that for the most part it does not get into the hands of the survivors. At the current rate of Holocaust survivors we should have over a million by 2015.
“The Nazis later sold the homes to their occupants, who are now the owners.”
Sounds familiar.
“At the current rate of Holocaust survivors we should have over a million by 2015. ”
Finkelstein claims in The Holocaust Industry that – “The Israeli prime minister’s office recently put the number of “living Holocaust survivors” at nearly a million.”
Somehow Phil ignored that the law was passed by the German government, not demanded by Israel, and that the Israeli estimate of funds due are less than the German estimate.
The article is more of an announcement, than “Jews dwelling on the past”.
Nuance.
You missed the point, Richard Witty, which is applying the Israeli retort “Palestinians
must stop dwelling on the past” to the fact of never ending German reparations for wrongs done to Jews 70 years ago.
Additionally, Phil’s article is supported by the never ending trial of alleged Nazi
war criminals, lately, e.g., the trial of a Ukranian POW who agreed to be trained as a camp
guard to avoid starvation, John Demjanjuk, who is now age 88 and wheel-chair bound
as he sits in court–the case raises interesting questions regarding holocaust trial
case law principles, and raises the issue by analogy about the complicity of Israeli
society with the occupation wrongs done, and being done to the Palestinian collective:
link to dw-world.de
And BTW, Demjanjuk has already been tried in Israel for allegedly being a notorious
honcho guard at a different camp–a completely false allegation as it turned out; the
present case in Germany against him relies on the simple fact of a ID photo indicating
he was a camp guard at this second camp location.
Israel is perfectly happy to receive more and increased reparations offered by
the German regime although those reparations are completely based on wrongs
done long ago. So the lesson there is Palestinians must stop dwelling on the past,
and Germans should too–both so long as the benefits go to Israel, while simultaneously nobody should dwell on wrongs done by Israel in the past–AND
on-going as I type here.
American — and Israeli– policy makers, legislators, and taxpayers should study this action of Germany’s very carefully: If it is just for Jewish victims of German warmaking to demand reparations and pensions, than it is equally just for Iraqi, Afghani, Lebanese, and Palestinian victims of American and Israeli warmaking to demand and receive reparations as well as sustaining pensions.
Incidentally, does this action of the Germans extend to others who were victims of the Germans, or only to Jews? Were Jews the only victims of the German war machine?
Points well taken, Psychopathic god–their are court suits in process now (being
stymied and ignored) both here and in some European countries alleging that
Shrub & Company are guilty of war crimes as defined from Nuremberg on. And, yes, for example, has there been any war crimes trials brought by the Roma, or the Polish government? Do they get any reparations from Germany?
Anyone remember what Roman Herzog told the Herero about reparations?
“Not a chance.”
Yet they seem to have billions to dish out, how odd.
The Herero case underscores the apparent limits to international reparations for genocide:
link to afraf.oxfordjournals.org
Native Americans just won a huge monetary case against the US for its mismanagement of Indian Affairs long ago:
link to democraticunderground.com
And let’s not forget Japanese Americans received compensation for wrongful
internment during WW2. Additionally, there’s been a stymied bill in congress for years now
seeking compensation for wrongfully interned German and Italian Americans
for the same USA wrong.
“Native Americans just won a huge monetary case against…”
Oh crap, there’s a “t” in Native. I thought I was rich for a second.
Where did the $1.25 billion go that Bronfman got the survivors in 1998 from the Swiss Banks? The survivors said they have received nothing.
Fees and expenses dear boy, fees and expenses…
Where is the money? Bank Leumi.
link to pacificfreepress.com
You know, I get so tired of the “we are taking care of our survivors” nonsense out of Israel, and their ardent supporters in the USA. No horn blowing, but you have no idea how many have suffered waiting for help…many have died. Israel built monuments to the Holocaust and enhanced their own infrastructure, while the survivors were eating dog food to pay for their medications.
It took a lot of outcry, and the literal marching in the streets for things to be taken care of in Israel, the same has not happened here. You can kill two birds with one stone in this instance – if the Zionists will steal from the Holocaust survivors so that they nearly starve, what will they do to the Palestinians? The only interest they have in the survivors is the “image,” they personally do not give a shit about them – only when they are called on the carpet in public do they move, to avoid a PR nightmare. So they want the image, they want the moral authority of the survivors, so they can smother the suffering voices of the Palestinians, and steal more money in the name of the survivors.
THEY TREAT THE PALESTINIANS LIKE THEY TREAT THE HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS
Can my dog get paid to eat dog food like the Holocaust survivors in Israel?
…you know, even for you, yonira, that was pretty damn disgusting.
What wonderful economy, Phil.
I would go a step (or two) further in encapsulating Zionist attitudes to Palestinians: Palestinians Must Stop
lol Shmuel… if I may just pick a nit–the Palestinians Must Stop, that is true and fundamentally sound.
But Phil is on to something: what they must stop, above everything else, is dwelling… be it on the past or in East Jerusalem… they just need to stop dwelling. Or dwell somewhere else.
Agreed FC. Phil really nailed it. I just wanted to be clever too.
Stop dwelling, cont.:
Israel wants prisoners exiled in proposed swap with Hamas
JERUSALEM – Israel would approve a proposed prisoner swap deal with Gaza’s Hamas rulers if they agree to the deportation of some Palestinian prisoners selected as part of a trade for a lone Israeli soldier, Israeli media reported today.
Standard Israeli practice in these prisoner swaps. I recall hundreds of released Palestinian prisoners trapped in no-man’s land on the Lebanese border one winter, some years ago. If Hamas accepts this condition, where they will physically end up is no trivial matter. Neither Western nor Arab countries are likely to accept them.
Mir? Interstellar refugee camps?
How do you “deport” someone from their own homeland? Seriously, Modern Hebrew must be chock full of Orwellian double speak at this point.
By ignoring the Geneva conventions.
After all, Israel drove most of the Palestinian population from their own homeland, why stop at a few more?
Gideon Levy has a good op-ed in which he points out that if Israel didn’t keep tens of thousands of Palestinians in its prisons, the Palestinians would have less incentive to take prisoners of their own, for swaps.
The word they’re using is gerush, which has no connotation of repatriation or exile. Ironically, it is the same word used for the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492.
You know what pisses me off? How Arabic words are rendered in Western media into faulty definitions designed to demonize (jihad in its core definition means “struggle of faith,” not “holy war”) whereas Hebrew words are rendered into faulty definitions that are favorable. This is, in point of fact, why I decided to learn Arabic — I’m sick and tired of finding out just how much propaganda we are being spoon fed by the media who are getting their kibble from propaganda tanks like MEMRI.
Shmuel, it’s not my economy. I actually stole it from my tipster, who is a miracle of economy, but won’t let me use his name. Sensitive position. Phil
The talkbacks at Ha’aretz are interesting. A lot point out that Israel doesn’t represent all Jews or all survivors, no matter how it claims to. And a LOT of them point out how the survivors in Israel often live in poverty while the Israeli bank is fat from the money.
Finkelstein’s book has a lot on this.
“A lot point out that Israel doesn’t represent all Jews or all survivors,”
But, but, if Israel doesn’t do that what does it do?
Anyway, if you can read the comments in Ha’aretz you’re a braver man than I, or me, for that matter. They give me the creeps. I’m sure there’s a range of opinion represented, but still, ewww.
“Know thine enemy.”
The phobes we get around here are only pale imitations.
Yeah. I can’t stand to read more than a handful of those comments on Ha’aretz. Wow.
When I was a kid I used to poke at roadkill, too.
Thats funny potsherd, that is the exact feeling I get when I blog on here, just like I am poking at roadkill, most of the time the stench is unbearable.
Zionists are such good people! No wonder they get invited to all the parties.
Hopefully, Phil will ban OhioJoes and the stench will dissipate.
I wouldn’t count on it but frankly, potsherd, considering that psychopath is one of the most vocal defenders of Zionism on the boards? Really, ultimately, his antics are a “gimme” to the rest of us.
Let us hope this time around reparations are paid to the survivors themselves and the money is not grabbed by the State of Israel. See this Ynet story, from where I quote: When asked what she thought of the Israeli government’s attitude towards Holocaust survivors, she [a survivor] said: “I would not want what I think to appear in print.”
When the survivors made aliyah they should have suspected that the State that stole the Palestinians’ land and assets through the “Absentee” Property Law would eventually swindle them too.
I can see why you didn’t even post the title. ~How embarrassing.
Did Japan ask the US for money 60 years after Hiroshima/Nagasaki?
This smells or desparation, or possibly it’s just another day for the
Zionist welfare machine.
Did the Germans ask for reparation money after Dresden?
The Palestinians did nothing comparable to either Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany.
If I remember correctly, the “Claims Conference” kept the money, and delayed payment to holocaust survivors
link to ynetnews.com
I would question the reported number (in the above article) of 725,000 Israeli pensioners still affected. But I wouldn’t, of course, query the the Holocaust Industry’s facts of 6 million Jews killed.
Work out the figures:
725,000 Holocaust survivors = 10% of Israel’s population (which includes 20% Israeli Arabs) – so the proportion is a bit greater
The US claims 25M seniors (7.7% – who can claim Medicare (out of 300M )
link to highbeam.com
And that’s all seniors, not just survivors.
So the claimed numbers just don’t match up.
By definition, they must be aged 65 or more to have had anything to do with the holocaust. How many of them haven’t survived the past 65 years? G#d knows, and Israel is certainly not going to tell us.
Israel must be hoping that the surviving survivors don’t survive much longer. Then it can keep the money for itself.
I would agree with Chaos4700 that this is naked greed.
“I would question the reported number (in the above article) of 725,000 Israeli pensioners still affected. But I wouldn’t, of course, query the the Holocaust Industry’s facts of 6 million Jews killed.”
Didn’t Leonard Dinnerstein say only 40000 ‘survived’ (60000 walked out of the camps, 20000 died within a week) ?
Just like “anti-Semitic,” the definition of Holocaust surviver keeps expanding.
“I would question the reported number (in the above article) of 725,000 Israeli pensioners still affected. But I wouldn’t, of course, query the the Holocaust Industry’s facts of 6 million Jews killed. ”
Why wouldn’t you question the 6 million figure? There’s no doubt that millions died, but there is enough reason to believe that 6 million is inflated or arbitrary.
Here is another aspect of the Holocaust industry and Jewish self-absorption with the past, the theft of the “Arbeit Macht Frei” sign from the Auschwitz gate.
Instantly, the pundits began to shriek that it was an act of anti-semitism, meant to deny the Holocaust, destroy the Jews, blah blah blah.
Such as Noah Klieger at Ynet: link to ynetnews.com
Of course now we learn that the motive was money, that the thieves meant to sell the sign to a collector of Nazi memorabilia.
Anyone else struck by how… er, militant, Noah Klieger’s response is? Especially at the end? Pretty horrible irony.
Also? Do Israelis want Jewish history to be immortalized by that sign? Shouldn’t Judaism be defined by, oh I don’t know… the Torah? Or better yet, how about famous Jews throughout history who have contributed greatly to human culture and knowledge? No, instead, they want to make Nazi memorabilia out to be defining symbols of Judaism.
There’s something deeply sick about that.
The Serbs do this, too – they dwell obsessively on their defeat by the Turks at Kosovo, then go out and slaughter other people.
“There’s something deeply sick about that.”
Have “Jewish leaders” (excuse me while I gargle) ever gotten over the idea that they are intermediaries between captive or circumscribed Jews and a hostile Gentile world? Oh well, I guess everybody looks back to their glory days.
If you go on Google News and search for “Auschwitz,” the number of stories about the missing sign in the American press is 2,294. The number of stories in Poland: 27.
I was reading Chris Floyd’s excellent critique of Obama’s Nobel speech in which the self-described heir of Martin Luther King’s legacy claims that non-violence couldn’t have stopped the Nazis.
It all comes back to WWII.
And this is where American imperialism and Zionism intersect–the foundational myths of the “Pax Americana.” That absolutist notion of good vs. evil is so important that the media will bend over backwards to drag events from 70 years ago into the current events cycle.
cultures are like flames – they dance about in real time, but the leadership at any given time chooses a narrative to define their people and their objectives and none has been so consistent in the modern era as the zionist narrative – we are the World’s Official Victims (WOV) and, as such, are entitled to perform any heinous crime against others because we were victimized once, long ago … okay, several times … long long ago (but, hey, when you’ve been around over 5800 years you can stack up the defeats into nice pile of victimhood).
just in the past 20 years many millions of human beings have been mercilessly slaughtered by other human beings for a variety of reasons, and they haven’t made an industry out of their suffering or used it as the backbone of the narrative of their culture and their people. The flame dances, it is every-changing and conscious thinking caring people are attuned to its nuances and its movement and don’t become locked into a snapshot of its existence.
some estimates put Congolese deaths at between 5-8 million people – more than the jews killed in WWII … how many hundreds of thousands were killed in the Balkan wars? … over 1 million dead in the Rwandan massacre … on and on it goes, but zionists derive such attention, such political power, such influence, such a shield of propaganda cover for their own atrocities through their armor of Official Victimhood that it is just sickening.
… perhaps the world should agree upon a time-limit for claiming victimhood – you get one, maybe two generations (so 20 to 40 years max) then you’re politely asked to move on already and get on with your lives as SURVIVORS who made it and are starting their own renewed narrative with a new beginning … the flame of culture dances to a new time with new goals and a new vision
You know, if “the Jews” (and we’ll let the exact composition of that agglomeration alone for a moment) had instead commemorated the Holacaust as an epitome and nadir of all the crimes against the powerless, no matter who…
too true Mooser, just look at Holocaust memorials and museums – a real hierarchy of suffering – because it is so politically useful to marginalize the suffering of others (Armenians, Catholics, gays, gypsies, political opponents, etc.) when your official victimhood is at stake
Which generation are on the Palestinians on then Radii?
Um… your grammar seems to be a bit more unintelligible than usual. Past your bedtime?
good point, please forgive me. I start drinking more heavily during the holidays.
If your prior posts are to be gauged, you may want to dial back just a tad. Wouldn’t want you to get alcohol poisoning or cirrhosis of the liver.
More naked greed:
Boston Provident Trader Ezra Levy Arrested for Theft
link to bloomberg.com
AF? There needs to be more information that actually connects this guy with Israel other than the fact that he merely has a Jewish-sounding name. To me, as bad as this looks, without more concrete information, it simply looks like one singular greedy fraudster.
Might the Catholics finally be getting some backbone?:
Jewish anger as Pope Benedict moves Pius XII closer to sainthood
link to guardian.co.uk
Sadly, Jimmah crawling in the other direction:
Jimmy Carter to U.S. Jews: Forgive me for stigmatizing Israel
link to haaretz.com
I can tell you right now, nothing is going to drive a wedge between Catholics and Jews faster than the Jews presuming they can dictate to us who gets sainthood and who doesn’t.
Carter’s move doesn’t exactly surprise me and it’s hardly any sort of reversal. I like the man overall, I think he’s honorable and honest… but one fault I find with him is that he’s too willing to make moral equivocations, especially for the sake of a unity and cooperation that just is never going to be attainable with fanatics like Zionists. I can respect that the guy’s a peacemaker but he’s going to get his hand bitten every single time by Israel and their cohorts.
I hope you’re right about Catholics, Chaos. Right now, all the intercultural exchanges go in one direction, with Catholics apologizing thus, and Jews demanding more. That’s been true at the Pope-Head Rabbi level all the way down to all sorts of US localities. I know the Vatican has made specific criticisms of the occupation, but as with the Obama administration it never has “teeth”: Israel is wrong, but there may be consequence to being wrong. “Moral suasion” hasn’t worked too well.
I meant NO consequence!
Well, it’s one thing when what’s being dealt with is merely matters of immediate or relatively secular concern (and that double standard is one of my complaints about the Catholic Church, among others, incidentally) but the idea of anyone interfering with the process of canonization is unconscionable — let alone parties from outside the Catholic Church. For one thing, it mirrors on the sort of “renounce your faith” persecutions that the early Church suffered and that virtually all of the early saints were martyred for.
Putting pressure on the Catholic Church is one thing, but demanding renouncement of symbols of the faith? That’s a whirlwind that overzealous Jews will be reaping.