Israeli officials blame a Palestinian Authority diplomatic campaign orchestrated "to coerce Israel into accepting statehood."
The US State Department blames the Goldstone report.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will seek cabinet approval on Sunday for a new map of national priority zones that will grant 110,000 settlers – most of whom live outside the major settlement blocs – the economic benefits conferred on residents of these zones. . .
Designation as a national priority zone entitles a town to additional state funding, which can be spent on programs ranging from professional retraining courses to extra classroom hours and cultural activities. Netanyahu’s proposal allots a budget of about NIS 1,000 per person for these benefits, meaning his government will be earmarking an additional NIS 110 million for the settlements.
The proposal the cabinet will be asked to approve on Sunday states that its main purpose is "to encourage population dispersal in the State of Israel and increase the population of the periphery and of areas near the border." Another goal is to "preserve and bolster Israel’s national security stamina."
Some settlement freeze. The best comment on the proposed new "priority zones" comes from Israeli Knesset member and National Union Party member Michael Ben-Ari:
"The message from here is very clear. . .The Jews have been exiled enough. If there is a people that has to be evacuated and should not be here, it is not the Jewish people."
Chomsky says Israel is Uncle Sam’s lackey; they work together to evil in the world, yet Chomsky ignores Israel’s thumbing its nose at Obama’s settlement freeze in his conclusion, and he asserts that we didn’t send arms to Israel just prior to the Gaza turkey shoot at Israel’s demand, but rather Uncle Sam was just sending arms to Israel for its own use; Israel is still, in Chomsky’s eyes, only the tail of the USA dog.
link to palestinechronicle.com
I think there is something to be said for the notion that the war machines of the US and Israel have become so entertwined, politically as well as economically, as to be indistinguishable as fundamentally separate agencies.
We really have to confront the fact that our policies of prisoner detainment, torture and show trials function exactly like Israeli treatment of Palestinians.
Actually, the US was trained by Israel as to how to handle things. Gee, you’d think there was some difference between the the USA Constitution and Israel’s lack of same.
That’s potentially a good point. One would like to know just how many of these “defense contractors” served in the IDF at some point.
Indeed, but you don’t even have to go that far in your search; the US government generally and US military specifically
has tons of IDF consultants as to both domestic and foreign policy.
The slogan for Obama’s administration after the fact will not be “yes we can,” but “we tried.” I think it is awfully naive of you and others to think that Obama got a “thumbing of the nose” from Israel, it introduces a dynamic hoodwink on your part and Obama – hoodwinked by Israel. When it at best is nothing but a “good cop bad cop” scenario.
I do not think this is what is going on at all (above), but it is nothing but a silly ruse concocted to make people think the Obama administration was overcome, and adds fuel to the fire of the vast “power” of Israel (not that Israel has no pull, but it is more of a confluence of interest rather than a leading around of the US administration by the nose) . The true pull is in that old system of elites of which a portion is Zionist, you could even say a predominant portion in the sense that the activity that occurs between this cadre and the administration is high profile, and requires an activity of open participation (rather than others which are more low profile).
In reality there is no difference in what is taking place here than what took place in Europe, when the crowns and various parliaments did what they could for their dominant moneyed classes. Just like when the UK (as an example) knighted its Lord’s, Dukes, and Duchesses with a quest of exploitative colonialism so they could enrich themselves and the privatized coffers of the kingdoms, while the peasants ground in misery. There is ostensibly no difference accept outward appearance between kingdoms of old, feudalism, and now capitalism.
However, many of you people here do not want to address the real situation, you would rather act like there is some violence to the system is taking place, rather than the mere function of the corrupt system. So you project these scenes that are prepared for your consumption, and will continue to do so until you grow up. If you refuse to address what I am talking about, and have been talking about the debacle will continue! It will get worse, because in case you know it or not, entire empires have fallen just because these governments which were built as franchises to the elite will continue until they hit the proverbial wall. The end will come, what will happen in the meantime is either people who misunderstand what is taking place being by far the worse victims, or they will rise up with a clear understanding of what is taking place and take their country (you notice I did not say “take back,” that is because this same bullshit has been going on since this country’s inception!). Wake up
So, what and how do U tell us that we should supp0rt whom?
Nice quip Citizen, before I answer, do you see the validity of anything I am saying or not?
Yes, VR I see the validity of all you are saying. Things remain the same in essence; while it’s true that most people are no longer literally serfs, simply legal property of the Lord, in the context of today, they remain de facto serfs;
this is the socio-economic condition that is actual.
Phil,
Here’s another senator bringing good singing cheer to these holiday times. brought to you by your favorite paper, the nytimes.
The canon of Hanukkah songs written by Mormon senators from Utah just got a little bigger.
“Anything I can do for the Jewish people, I will do,” Mr. Oren Hatch said in an interview before heading to the Senate floor to debate an abortion amendment. “Mormons believe the Jewish people are the chosen people, just like the Old Testament says.”
link to nytimes.com
At one point, Mr. Hatch unbuttons his white dress shirt to expose the golden mezuzah necklace he wears every day. Mezuzahs also adorn the doorways of his homes in Washington and Utah. Mr. Hatch keeps a Torah in his Senate office.
“Not a real Torah, but sort of a mock Torah,” he said. “I feel sorry I’m not Jewish sometimes.”
He said his ultimate goal would be for his idol, Ms. Streisand, to perform one of his songs. “It would be good for her and good for me,” Mr. Hatch said, while acknowledging that given her outspoken liberalism, that union might require another miracle.
-is this guy for real? Stick to law making and voting for the Iraq war, you wannabee. Stand up comedy is for the pros. He doesn’t even need to lap-up the AIPAC doggie water at his ripe old age of 75. He’s going in for a second plate. What a douche-bag, straight-up douche-wad!
Real life is much more absurd than Curb Your Enthusiasm. We need a new episode
with Mr. Hatch. It could start with a dream involving a Hatch character having senile dreams of fucking Ms Streisand in the long nose with his you know what; she could
breathe on his senile balls huskily, for the sake of the continuity of her people. Witty could play a supporting character, pretending he was a “bad boy.”
So basically… according to the US and Israel, everyone else is to blame except for the US and Israel. Huh.
As far as I know, the PA has never insisted on the Goldstone report going forward in the UN as a precondition for talks with Israel on Palestinian statehood.
It’s two separate issues–well, not really, but you know what I mean–they can be dealt with separately.
Actually, as I recall, the US twisted the PA’s arm to force them to insist that the UN stall the inquiry, and the PA nearly had a mutiny on its hands for bowing to American hegemonic pressure.
I sincerely believe that the United States has become the primary source of destabilization for I/P. And we have demonstrated it several times over at this point.
Yeah, I know Abbas came around after a revolt in his own party, but still never insisted on an inquiry as a precondition.
It goes without saying that the diplomatic and military backing the US gives Israel is the greatest source of destabilization. I would agree that the US involvement in negotiations is overall a negative and obviously can’t be separated from the overall support given Israel by the US.
True, your point stands. It was not my intent to sound like I was trying to contradict it and I apologize if it came off that way.
My point is that it isn’t just our support of Israel but the US’ deliberate attempts to sabotage Palestinian sovereignty, stability and prosperity. The United States isn’t merely propping up Israel — we are also punching Palestine in the gut. And I think the rest of the world is starting to notice that.
How about those US trained Palestinians from Jordan in Jerusalem? The US has a fake Arab village over there where we train them in how to fuck their own kind.
That too. Shame on me for neglecting that factor and thanks for bringing it up.
“My point is that it isn’t just our support of Israel but the US’ deliberate attempts to sabotage Palestinian sovereignty, stability and prosperity. The United States isn’t merely propping up Israel — we are also punching Palestine in the gut”
Of course, they’re one in the same –you can’t support Israel without crushing Palestine. Every Zionist understands this perfectly.
Unfortunately, a lot of humanists/activists/intellectuals have a hard time swallowing this fact and construct some very convoluted arguments to justify Israel while expressing support for the Palestinians.
Oh, I never thought you were trying to contradict me, but even if you were, no apologies needed.
Yeah, I agree with you–in an ideal world, the US would withdraw as a negotiating “mentor”, AND withdraw as the political, economic, and diplomatic protector of Israel. Not saying the outcomes would be good for the Palestinians, but they would be no worse.
Never understood the quibbles about whether or not the US could be this mythical “honest broker”. It’s not and never has been and never will be. The “moderate” arab regimes–saudi arabia, egypt, jordan, etc.–welcome the fig leaf of US involvement in the negotiating process because the “US is the only one who can put pressure on Israel”. The reality of course is that the US only puts pressure on Palestinians–and those states know it.
You have a point. Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt would all fear a democratic Palestine almost as much as Israel would.
I think you are right; freedom for Palestinians might make the Arab Street
wake up to their own miserable lives in those Arab states you mention. You could add Syria, no?
True. I was thinking in terms of countries the United States supports, but Syria’s government counts among the regimes that would fear a genuine example of democracy.
The settler movement and the settler solidarity movement is nearly solely to blame for the cessation of peace talks.
Thank god there’s no settler government, settler army and wealthy foreign settler benefactor to pay for their violent crusade. If that were case, the ‘settler movement’ would really be intractable.
The settler movement is intractible.
The only possibility for winning a war with Israel, whether by BDS or military, is through Israel dividing severely as a result of settler lawlessness.
Those that desire that would encourage it, comparable to the irony that some have suggested of letting Israel annex all of the West Bank, thereby pressing the one-person one-vote theme.
Is anyone struck by the prescience of Witty’s second paragraph fueling the panicky, shoddy straw man comparison in the second?
The straw man comparison in the third, I meant to say, sorry. Additionally, note that Witty is willing to blame the settler movement but his response is that they have to be coddled or else his precious Israel might fall apart at the seams. No such kid gloves treatment for Hamas of course — or anyone unfortunate enough to be within a kilometer of where the IDF claims a Hamas militant might be. His Jewish supremacy shines true.
Not coddled, but skillful compelling dissent.
…like protecting fundraisers and charities that raise money for settlement construction? If that’s your idea of consent I’d hate to see what you’d be capable of if you were being openly complicit.
Are you seriously suggesting that the settler issue can be solved through persuasion? I ask because your syntax is so muddled it is difficult to know what your point(s?) is(are?).
I think persuasion efforts are more likely to be successful than solely external pressures.
NONE respond favorably to the implication of external pressure. Look at the headlines of major Israeli papers relative to Obama. They are not considering that his reasoning may be best for the world and for them, but that he is imposing, how dare he.
Same as the motive for Islamic resistance movements. They resent the intrusion.
And for how long did colonization of the West Bank halt during the Oslo Accords, Witty? How far did the rate of new construction drop, during and after?
Witty thanks for the reply. I can see Julian chuckling in the corner thinking “Persuasion, Oh Really!”
“The only possibility for winning a war with Israel, whether by BDS or military, is through Israel dividing severely as a result of settler lawlessness.
Those that desire that would encourage it, comparable to the irony that some have suggested of letting Israel annex all of the West Bank, thereby pressing the one-person one-vote theme. ”
Witty, do you know why Israel would cease to exist in its current makeup if a one person one vote were allowed? It would not cease to exist as it currently does because it is no longer “exclusively Jewish,” if the one man one vote were allowed it would cease to exist as it currently does because it is NOT a democracy.
Of course, there is a proviso that you have to make to call it exclusively Jewish (Israel), and that is that how Zionism is currently predominantly practiced in Israel is Jewish. I do not consider it Jewish, that is Zionism, I consider it to be a cult how it is currently practiced predominantly in Israel. That is why I have no qualms about it ceasing to exist in its current condition.
If as you say, Witty, that the settlers are responsible for the cessation of peace talks, what would you suggest as the next step if persuasion fails? And persuasion would require that the Israeli government cease enabling the settlements. In other words, articulate a vision that settlement is not in Israel’s interests.
If rational discourse–as I take it would be your form of persuasion–fails, what then?
Would not BDS be an effective tool of persuasion in that scenario?
And the American strategy in both Iraq and Afghanistan both essentially ignore the respective natives’ objection to occupation. The USA government (donkeys or elephants)
never asks itself, what if the USA was occupied by foreigners “in the best interests” of the USA citizens? Imagine what USA citizens would do. But we can’t imagine walking in the shoes of average Iraqis or Afghan natives. Playing chess is not the same as reality.
Given the negative attitude of the Palestinian voting public towards the Netanyahu government (for good cause) there is no incentive for Abbas to negotiate. But peace process for the sake of process seems to be besides the point by this point of time. If reaching peace is the goal, then secret peace talks would serve the same purpose as public peace talks.
WJ? The slaughter of Palestinians that was Operation Cast Lead happened in the government that preceded Netanyahu. You know — the so-called “moderate” one.
It isn’t that Palestinians can’t negotiate with the current Israeli government. It’s that they can’t negotiate with any Israeli government that has ever existed.
Unfortunately, Israeli governments seem to do everything possible to torpedo even the peace accords that they make. With the prospect of peace with Syria threatening, Netanyahu insists on submitting any agreement to a popular referendum to be rejected.
What about the peace accord with Egypt that was signed in 1979?
Perhaps in those days there was actually a desire for peace. Egypt, after all, had an army, an air force, was capable of attacking Israel on its own territory.
You mean the same Camp David Accords that require that Israel comply with UN 242? Which Israel is actively flouting? You’re citing a treaty in which Israel is actively breaking the terms of it as your defense?
It was certainly easier to reach peace with Egypt than with Syria or the Palestinians. Firstly because the Sinai forms a large buffer zone, whereas there is very little territory between Damascus and Northern Israel. And as far as the Palestinians are concerned, there is no buffer zone at all.
The conflict with the Palestinians is commonly seen as a zero sum existential question.
Certainly there was very little emotional/historical attachment to the Sinai when compared with the West Bank.
Certainly the last 30 years have been dispiriting to the peace movement in Israel.
A leader with the credentials (and historical vision) of Menachem Begin, would be hard to find.
And unlike the second attempt at Camp David in 2000, camp David 1978 saw an American president who was extremely well prepared, whereas Clinton was more or less flying by the seat of his pants.
The loss of men in the 73 war was a factor as well, but I think the other factors that I mentioned are also quite important.
Um, that’s nice and all. You didn’t speak to the fact that Israel is still violating UN 242 and, therefore, breaking the Camp David Accords.
Um, the Palestinians have nothing to offer the Israelis other than their will to resist, WJ.
Egypt is a State w/ an army. It wasn’t the best army in the world but it wasn’t a pushover.
Egypt could bargain.
The Palestinians can’t. That’s why there isn’t peace. It’s a relationship of Master (Zionists) to slaves (Palestinians).
And though I perceive WJ’s feint as a distraction, to add to Cliff’s response: Israel also bargained with Egypt only under threat from Carter to pull aid, and then the Accords only happened with extreme generosity in foreign aid money lavished on both Israel and Egypt.
The Camp David accords were signed in September of 78 and the peace with Egypt was signed in March of 79. Although the camp david accords included references to the West Bank, I am not aware that the peace treaty with Egypt was signed with any statement making it dependent on behavior other than that between the two countries of Egypt and Israel.
And since then, Egypt has been bought off by the US.
I think you underestimate the attachment to the Sinai. The point, however, is that Begin signed the agreement with Sadat and neither of them put the peace agreement to a referendum – neither of them gave the populace a right of veto.
The slimeballs currently running Israel introduced the referendum requirement in the belief that the fanaticism among the population will veto any treaty or peace agreement. Then they will flutter their eyelashes innocently and say, “well, you can see that we tried to make peace but our hands are tied.”
Do you deny that Israel is in violation of the Camp David Accords?
WJ I usually disagree with you but your summary with unlike the second attempt at Camp David in 2000, camp David 1978 saw an American president who was extremely well prepared, whereas Clinton was more or less flying by the seat of his pants.
I agree completely. I do believe that the Oslo process could have achieved its goals if Clinton had been a more competent. His biggest failure was to trust Dennis Ross to handle the very delicate issues during the 2000 negotiations. As has been well documented, Ross was working for the Israelis the whole time. It was so disheartening to see Obama let Ross back inside his team last winter. I was one of the hopefuls but at that point I began to worry big time. It has only gotten worse.
The original deal was to include self-determination of the population of Gaza, which Begin immediately refused to consider – to the regret of subsequent governments.
I think you underestimate the Israeli public, which would probably okay a treaty giving up the Golan. (It’s not 100%, closer to 51-49%. Not that I think a referendum is a good idea. I just think that it’s winnable. I think the referendum idea makes it more likely that Netanyahu will approve, because he can pass the buck to the people and he can say, it wasn’t me who gave the Golan away; the people approved it. I just saw “Michael Collins” and the Irish people approved the 1922 treaty with England.) (Remember it won’t be just Likud voting. It would be everyone including Palestinian Israelis aka Israeli Arabs.)
Are you aware of the quantity of water that is being pumped out of the Golan Heights to fuel Israel’s exorbitant water usage? I think you are mistaken — giving up the Golan Heights would require Israelis to live modestly, and I don’t think they’ve demonstrated any capacity for restraint whatsoever.
Incidentally, keep changing directions like a go-kart without a steering wheel, WJ. It’s only making your position demonstrably weaker and making my job easier.
This is very important. Look at the proportion of US foreign aid to Egypt (on condition they don’t fuck with Israel) and to Israel (no conditions) that was Carter’s hole card. As it turns out, I think the USA taxpayers have taken a real hosing along. And there’s no prospect of anything except more of the same at best. Oh well, on a parallel note, I see Obama’s Afghanistan surge would pay for universal health care for all Americans; note that Israel already has universal health care….
I’ve been trying to understand the issues involved here. Why would they have a settlement freeze and encourage them at the same time?
I’m a bit new to this…
Do you guys think it will happen that all settlers will be removed from Judea / Samaria / West Bank areas?
Simple. It’s because the “settlement freeze” rhetoric are all lies. It’s so Israel can say, “Well we tried a settlement freeze and nothing changed!” and of course, nothing changed because they actually kept building settlements. The same thing happened during the Oslo negotiations, and the failure of the international community to call Israel out when they lie and break promise lead to the failure of those talks as well.
There has been no settlement freeze for over 40 years, despite the fact the USA has called for it all that time as the elementary move to start real sincere peace negotiations in the region. Israel has always and still moves to put more facts on the ground” so that any eventual peace on the table is prime with those negotiating chips.
The USA has allowed this all along. Bush 1 tried to stop this priming of the peace pump, but he was punished for it; and Bush2 learned that lesson; he simply rubber-stamped Israel’ s whims accordingly. Obama has learned that lesson. Hence his
failure to put any teeth into his Cairo speech.