Ali Abunimah said at Hampshire College that the decadent period of Zionism has begun, in which Zionism loses the war for hearts and minds in the west, and delegitimization/BDS force Israeli introspection, and force Israel to change its behavior. Well this won’t happen till the New York Times becomes just halfway as honest with its readers as Anshel Pfeffer, in Haaretz:
[As for] Israel’s battle for international legitimacy…. [t]he reality is that in many countries, that battle is over, that battle has been lost. In some of the most "enlightened" nations of the Western world, identifying Israel as a racist, warmongering apartheid state is no longer a radical view, shared mainly by anti-Semites and "Arab lovers" – it has become the mainstream opinion..
[For] British reporters and broadcasters… Israel, as far as they are concerned, is a rogue nation – perpetually engaged in bloodshed, certainly no better than its Hamas adversary. We can continue to huff and puff as much as we like, but for the rest of the world, an arrest warrant against an Israeli politician isn’t a shocking news story, it is simply a fact of life.
When are American publications going to start telling their readers what an enlightened Israeli publication is telling its readers? And why aren’t they honest? Why are they protecting American readers? Who is pulling the strings? (You know how I answer that question!)
What conclusion are you deriving from the presence of an observation in Haaretz?
Haaretz is warning, and in many ways the warning is being heeded.
Israel yesterday officially reconciled with Turkey. That wouldn’t have happened unless Turkey believed that Israel was working for peace. The Spanish new head of the EU announced that the EU will put its weight into achieving peace in 2010 on the basis of the Geneva Accords.
It is policies that are losing legitimacy, NOT Israel itself.
If Israel were part of the EU (potentially part of the EU’s strategy to realize a peace in 2010), it would be the nation of the highest and most consistent GDP growth over the past five years, including the last two. It would be one of the top 14 in GDP among all EU members, 4th in GDP per capita (including Palestinian Israeli citizens).
There is a restoration of Israeli legitimacy that is occurring now, only a loss of legitimacy on the limited political question of relations to the occupied territories (complicated by the still civil war – deferred at least in violence – between the PA and Hamas).
Its a story that the reporting of the story, is the story. But, we live in a world of rumors, of stories being the story.
So, maybe that will self-fulfill and crash.
Great, so Israel is fantastic at making money by grinding the Palestinian people under their heels.
And the reconciliation between Israel and Turkey is being grossly exaggerated.
I’m really going to love it when people like you are blindsided with how events roll out in the next few years, Witty. It will be one of the few consolations I will enjoy.
Israeli “legitimacy” at work.
Witty your propaganda is amusing. Israel would not be the number 4 in GDP per capita among EU members. Not with GDP (PPP) or nominal GDP per capita figures. Behind Israel are only the new East European member states. One of the top 14 in GDP among all EU members? Funny. EU has 27 members of which several have a smaller population compared to Israel, Baltic states, Malta, Cyprus, Luxenbourg etc which causes the Israel’s position with a bigger population. Iran would be higher on the same list than Israel would be. Not to mention Turkey.
I do not understand from where you fanatical Israel supporters get your GDP data. Israel is not especially rich or advanced compared to western countries. Israel is in no way important or vital for EU in economical terms. Neither is it for Middle Eastern countries. Israel’s importance is solely based on the military and political disturbance it creates and USA’s support.
Claiming that Turkey and Israel officially reconciled yesterday is “positive Israeli thinking” after a one hour meeting between the presidents. Turkey has lately clearly signalled that it is “number one” in the region, not Israel. Turkey has also signalled that it doesn’t tolerate the instability Israel is creating in the region. Nothing in that aspect has changed. Let us notice it is the Israeli officials and politicians who visit Turkey and/or want to meet with Turks. Not Turks visiting Israel. That shows that Israel is now the underdog in the regional rivalry. Soon Israel and its supporters must understand that Israel is a small country with the muscles of a small country.
The numbers were from the CIA Handbook, on the web.
The point of multiple posts here is that Israel is regarded as illegitimate for the isolation of the Palestinians, but the truth is that Israel’s place in the European and general world is becoming more significant, not less so.
And, while it would be a great improvement in the world for Israel to complete the peace process, to live it fully, to consider only the political voice is to misrepresent.
It is easy for Phil to dismiss neo-liberals as rationalizing, but to do so is a wishing, not a seeing.
I am not particularly enamored of the technorati vision of the world, but on its merits.
On the relationship between Israel and Turkey, the relationship is more collaborative than rivalry. They are not threatened by each other, so much as work together.
The only state in the region that has unconditionally rejected the existence of another state in the region is Iran.
Keep justifying that Israeli apartheid state, Witty. Your playing Jack Abramoff’s South African lobby for Israel is going to go over so very well. Look where Abramoff is today!
CIA – the world handbook doesn’t tell that Israel would be the 4th among EU states with GDP (PPP) per capita. Before Israel are Luxembourg, Ireland, Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, UK, Germany, Spain, France, Spain, Greece, Italy and Slovenia. Maybe Witty you have your own internet Mossad CIA handbook with own “facts”.
The notion that Israel is important and becoming more significant to EU and rest of the world is hilarious if we speak about the economy and what Israel produces. Nothing produced in Israel is vital to EU or the world and is or could be produced easily elsewhere.
Turkey is ten times bigger than Israel in population size and its economy is 4.5 times bigger than Israel’s. For Turkey to flourish it needs regional peace and stability. Israel’s business idea is based solely on regional instability and chaos, on which Israel’s disproportional political influence is based. Turkey has much trade with neighbours. Israel basically none.
Israel nukes and aggressive attitude are a threat to Turkey like they are to all in the neighbourhood, including EU. It is certain that the EU and other (China,Turkey, Indonesia etc) troops on Lebanese border monitor and gather information much more of Israel’s procedures, actions and forces than they monitor Hezbollah. Let’s remember the Israeli acts against German spy ships after Lebanon war.
The only state in the region that has unconditionally rejected the existence of another state in the region is Iran.
Come-on. Iran has not rejected the existence of Israel. The only one who de facto is rejecting the existence of a state in the region is Israel. If not why wasting billions (US money) in building settlements on another states side. Arabs, Palestinians and Iranians have several times informed that they can live with 1967 borders. The problem has been and is Israel, which pursues regional dominance.
Your apparently right on the numbers on the CIA factbook. I originally reviewed wikipedia EU statistics that quoted as sourced from the CIA handbook.
I misread.
Iran has never accepted Israel at 67 borders.
Israel is a significant contributor to European economy, with productivity statistics that are four to five times Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan. 2 1/2 times Turkey’s.
They are both important.
My point is of self-talk. Convincing oneself that politics is the only basis of relationship in the world.
Seriously, Witty. Like I keep saying, your pseudo-academic arguments that fall apart in a stiff breeze are one of the best constructs for supporting anti-Zionism that we have on this blog.
No wonder Hampshire College let you go, and no wonder BDS was a success there, if crap like this is the best you guys have.
BZZZZT! We’re sorry, but the correct answer to the question was, the Arab Peace Plan. Thanks for playing!
Although Turkey has recently dropped the chilly back it gave to Israel due to
the Gaza turkey shoot and will even send a Turkish rep to Israel sometime in the future; it maintains that its policy will continue to be one seeking
stability in the region; it has simultaneously told Israel it will not allow Israel air craft over its skies to spy on Iran, nor will it allow Israel aircraft to use Turkish
skies to attack Iran.
Much of Israel’s economic growth is thanks to the contributions of the wave of
highly educated Jews who poured in from Russia and to the myriad of ways
direct and indirect the USA has subsidized Israel–with such a special deal, imagine what the Palestinians could do–even without a country.
tHell, you should see what the Palestinians have done even without a country and any sort of special relationship from the US government. As far as a diaspora movement goes, frankly, they’ve come just as far as Jews ever have (minus an equivalency to AIPAC, but I’m loathe to consider it an “accomplishment” when i functions more like organized crime) in a fraction of the time. The city I live in has a beautiful mosque that was built up from a repurposed, abandoned public school and they run numerous small business across the city. I see Palestinian students at the university on a daily basis.
“Iran has never accepted Israel at 67 borders.”
That is, quite simply, a lie. Iran has repeatedly explicitly, as well as implicitly accepted Israel within the ’67 borders.
Similarly, India and Iran are cementing commercial relations link to time.com
Iran enjoys extensive medical exchange with Germany — German hospitals are at the forefront in helping the approximately 40,000 Iranians who still suffer ill effects from US-supported gas attacks on Iranian civilians.
Israel is expanding its militarization and participating with the US in weaponizing the Middle East. link to encyclopedia.com
When did Iran accept the Arab peace plan?
Witty writes:
Complete and absolute bullshit. How many times do I have to link to the info that you consistently misrepresent. Israel is a peon.
Once again, here it is from the EU Trade Commission.
Turkey’s trade with the EU.
link to trade.ec.europa.eu
Israel’s trade with the EU.
link to trade.ec.europa.eu
You are simply dead wrong, Witty. Once again.
When Organisation of Islamic States, which includes Iran, adopted Arab League Peace Initiative.
See: link to haaretz.com
There are dangers for Israel in accepting EU membership, IF Palestinian State was to get membership as well.
Freedom of movement inside the EU means that anybody can live and work in any part of the EU. What does it mean for Palestinian refugees, including so called internal refugees? They could apply for work in any part of EU, including Israel. The Member Country’s Supreme Court, when it comes to Human Rights can be trumped by the European Court of Human Rights. It would be illegal to define Jewishness along the bloodlines (indisputably racist) as opposite to practising of religion. What percentage of Ashkenazi Jews would start exploring their roots in Eastern Europe and Germany?
Many Israeli would hope that on opening the borders, the Gaza and bantustans of West Bank would empty into the Europe. But I wonder.
Israel cannot join the EU. The fact is, the core policies of Israel (and of Zionism) conflict with everything the EU stands for.
“Israel cannot join the EU”.
On paper it probably could by repudiating some of the more “in-your face” legislation favouring Jews over non-Jews.
But if Israel thought that they can outmanoeuvre EU biurocracy by maintaining apartheid through the back door administrative orders and by-laws, I think they would meet their match. It was, after all, German and French bureaucrats that created the system that was meant to overcome administration of ANY future nation that was meant to join. And they cut through the bs like a knife through the butter.
They should abandon the features that are describable as “apartheid”.
Partially, so that they can be equal partners in the EU.
It is one of the split psychologies of Netanyahu. He can’t figure out whether he is a free marketer or a nationalist.
It would be a good precedent for the world, to create a Mediterranean trade zone, that included Spain, Italy, France, Greece, Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, North Africa.
Those countries would pick up their economy and integrate the societies.
Huh, you left Palestine off your list. Almost as if… Palestinians are completely invisible to you, Witty.
Anyway, removing the apartheid characteristic would require Palestinians to have their right of return honored so that they could move back to the homeland from which they were displaced by the Nakba. Still agree to EU membership for Israel?
The MFTZ membership and prospective membership–a significant number
have no diplomatic relations with Israel; since the initial stages of the envisioned MFTZ require an increasing matrix of agreements (quite a few already on-going since the late 1990′s, many more to go–although the original projected date for finished formation is
2010), seems that’s a problem. And BTW a Palestinian entity is included.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Listen up, here’s a little reality check:
European politicians are petty, spineless bureaucrats – but they are not mind-numbingly stupid. Thus, they will definitely not let Israel join in the forseeable future. There’d be absolutely no benefit involved for the EU, and the negative effects would be enormous – even if Israel magically transformed from rogue state into a poster child for regional integration tomorrow, it would still be a major political liability. (I’m leaving all the legal hurdles which would be impossible for Israel to overcome here – it won’t even come to these being discussed.)
Same, by the way, applies for NATO.
step away from the Christmas punch bowl, Witty; Turkey is strengthening its ties and commercial relationships with Iran — yes, THAT Iran — link to raceforiran.com
Turkey’s prime minister Erdogan may have walked off the stage in disgust at Israeli leader Shimon Peres, but he greeted Iranian Pres. Ahmadinejad warmly, and conducted an extended dialogue with the Iranian leader on Turkey-Iran relations. Iran is a major market for Turkey’s produce, and Turkey relies on Iran for supplies of petrol products for heating. Thus, the measure sponsored by zionist Howard Berman, to strangle Iran’s energy capacities, is especially hateful, as well as counterproductive: it will harm Turkey, an American ally (consistent with the Lustick analysis posted elsewhere on Mondoweiss).
India and Iran are also strengthening their relationships, and China, of course, is firmly in Iran’s camp.
Israel is the pariah, Witty; the rest of the world knows that; Americans are told otherwise, but they’re getting wise to the hasbara.
Wouldn’t Israel be well advised to behave in a way that doesn’t piss off the rest of the planet?
In 1997, Elliott Abrams published a book entitled, Fear or Faith: How Jews Can Survive in a Christian America, which explained his strong commitment to Zionism; chastised Jews who marry Christians; and lashed out at American Christians for what he regarded as their insufficient support for Israel.
“Where Catholics and mainline Protestants still fall short is in their failure to understand the relationship of most Jews to Israel,” Abrams wrote. He singled out a 1990 statement by the United Church of Christ that Abrams asserted “was remarkably ungenerous when it came to Israel.”
Abrams cited a passage in the statement in which the Protestant church expressed sympathy for Jews who had suffered centuries of persecution but also noted disagreement among its members about whether Jews had a special claim on the Holy Land because of the supposed covenant with God described in the Jewish Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament).
“We appreciate the compelling moral argument for the creation of modern Israel as a vehicle for self-determination and as a haven for a victimized people,” the United Church of Christ statement said, before tempering that sentiment with sympathy for Palestinians.
“We also recognize that this event has entailed the dispossession of Palestinians from their homes and the denial of human rights,” the church statement said.
Abrams objected to this placing of Israeli and Palestinian concerns in the same passage, what neoconservatives often decry as “moral equivalence.”
“Indeed,” Abrams wrote, “at some points the statement referred to ‘the State of Israel-Palestine’ and used the term ‘uprising’ to refer to Arab activities most Israelis see as terrorist violence against them. This was at best a dry evenhandedness and conveyed no sense of joy at contemplating Israel restored.”
Abrams also criticized the Lutherans and the Presbyterians. “In fact, one can search very long among mainline Protestants statements to find a sympathetic word about Israel,” he wrote. By contrast, he cited favorably a comment by Rabbi Mordecai Waxman, who declared:
“The existence, significance, and meaning of the State of Israel to the Jewish people cannot be overestimated. In the Jewish theological and religious assessment the State represents a fulfillment of Jewish history, a validation of the ongoing covenant [with God], and the major creative response to the Holocaust. …
“Christians apparently cannot share this vision nor the psychology and history which have created it.”
more link to consortiumnews.com
Then there is Rapture Ready:
Israel is the key to all end-time prophecy. Keep your eye on Jerusalem.
Today we are pleased to introduce you to a guest columnist and dear friend, Sarah Stern of EMET, a Washington D.C.-based think tank. Sarah is one of the brightest lights in the pro Israel movement.
link to raptureready.com
Seems Abrams apparently cannot share the morality of the shared Golden Rule, whether phrased in term of Christian commission or Jewish omission.
Looks like Europe’s getting a better picture of just how “legitimate” Israel intends to act, as a nation. France certainly has.
Stuff they won’t tell you in the American media but is making more and more waves in Europe.
Unfortunately, Sarkoszy is an Islamophobic suckup to Israel. It’ll take a bigger outrage than that one to turn him.
Even without Blair in office, the Brits are still suckups to the US, which is to say Israel, and the Germans are driven by Holocaust guilt. They’re making the Israelis a fleet of submarines that are probably armed with nuclear missiles to attack Iran.
Sarkoszy is also a disgraceful embarrassment of a politician. I’m not intimately familiar with French politics, and perhaps I am still rather naive, but I don’t expect Sarkoszy to be around much longer.
I’m torn about Germany. They’re doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. It does sicken me that Israel continues to guilt Germany (and the rest of the world) into throwing so much charity their way and then they turn around and say, “See! Look at how modern we are! Our economy is the envy of the world!”
No it’s not, because the rest of the world is actually too self-respecting to behave like that (and those that aren’t haven’t managed to buy the US Congress and the Presidency).
RE: When are American publications going to start telling their readers what an enlightened Israeli publication is telling its readers?
A: NEVER
And why aren’t they honest?
A: They would make considerably less money if they covered news that when aired/published might upset their advertisers* (or donors in the case of PBS/NPR). In the case of conglomerate-owned news, a report on ABC News (owned by Disney) that is perceived as being critical of Israel might result in a boycott of Disney (especially by the ‘fundies’). Similarly, NBC is owned by GE which also owns one of the biggest U.S. defense contractors (Raytheon). Do you really think ABC News would criticize the military (or even U.S. foreign policy) or the military/industrial complex and thereby risk causing a substantial loss of revenue to one their parent company’s most important industries? Consequently, the emphasis is on fluff pieces and other ‘infotainment’ (i.e., Tiger Woods) to the exclusion of ‘hard news’ that might antagonize advertisers and other key constituencies (like the NRA, AARP, AIPAC, etc). Virtually no one in the ‘MSM’ has any interest in becoming a “conscious (or unconscious) pariah”.
*Advertisers become upset when prospective consumers call/write and say they will not buy their products because of a news story critical of Israel on a program supported by their ads.