A Mondoweiss reader has sent along the following map that is used in the orientation materials for Birthright trips to Israel. For those who don’t know, Birthright Israel is a program that gives free 10-day trips to Jewish young adults between ages 18-26 to build a connection with Israel and "strengthen participants’ personal Jewish identity":
A few things stand out about the map. First are the terms Judea and Samaria to help designate the West Bank. These are the biblical terms for the West Bank, and most associated in the US with the Israeli settler movement who use the designation to imply the Jewish "birthright" to the land. At least the the map also says West Bank, which is maybe a nod to the supposedly "disputed" nature of the territory.
More odd to me is that Gaza is displayed in green, while the West Bank and Golan Heights are in light blue. This which would seem to indicate that Gaza is a foreign entity similar to Egypt, Jordan, Syria or Lebanon, and not part of the occupied territories.
The entire Birthright orientation manual is after the jump. The person who sent it along is also interested to hear Mondoweiss readers thoughts about the timeline and history sections (pgs 19-21) and the reading list (lots of Dershowitz) -
Once again, Abbas is deemed to be so insignificant, that even the Birthright crew has already overtaken the West Bank, and pushed out the indigenous population. Why bother with the charade of the “peace process?” A big shout-out to the American taxpayers, for making this slow-motion ethnic cleansing a reality.
While we’re on the topic of the US, MLK would be outraged by America’s indifference to and taxpayer assisted apartheid of the Palestinian people. Our country has lost its way — the illusion of having Obama as the leader of the free world is mere opiate to the masses, while 1.5 million are suppressed in the greatest genocide of our time.
Hey what can I say, it’s not George Washington day, it’s MLK day today! Er, I forget, is there an Abe Lincoln day, or a a Ben Franklin day? You know, where all federal workers don’t work?
I think it’s pretty disgraceful that enterprises like this pretty much reduce the honorable practice of Judaism to little more than a real estate swindle. I can’t imagine how hard it is for the honest, virtuous, upstanding Jews of the world to fight the ugly stereotype of Jews as miserly and conniving when there are swindlers like this not only turning the symbols of the Jewish faith into little more than a corporatized brand name, but also sucking all of the oxygen out of the media such that the latter is the only group that gets face time whereas the former are silenced.
I know that this isn’t what Jews are, but I pay attention. How’s this going to play out for Americans who look at crap like this and believe that this is all Judaism really amounts to?
“How’s this going to play out for Americans who look at crap like this and believe that this is all Judaism really amounts to?”
I already know the answer to that question. I’ve heard it many times, and it goes like this: “Gosh, you Jews are smart! We got a lousy tax exemption and freedom from any kind of itellectual or ethical accountability, but you got a whole freakin country in the most popular tourist destination in the world! Why didn’t we think of that!?! Say, can we get in on the action? We’ll call ourselves Christian Zionists!”
And BTW, chaos, I would hardly call a religion which twists the heads off of doves and sexuallymutuilates, just after birth, all their male members, “an honorable practice”, but as always YMMV.
Those Christian Zionists have it hard; they have to ignore what’s actually happening to Christian arabs. They make it look easy.
Egypt isn’t likely to be happy to see Israel foisting Gaza off onto them.
Unless, between them and Israel, they manage to exterminate the population.
Hey, shake n bake, Uncle Sam is helping! Else, what do you call that down n dirty wall
the US Corp of Engineers is master-minding to cut of Pal smuggling in of stuff like
food?
Predictable knee-jerk responses.
The blue in the map states names by which the areas are referred, and the light blue as distinct from the dark blue indicated to me that the lands are NOT assertively regarded as part of Israel, but under Israeli temporary jurisdiction.
The Gaza green was surprising, as that was the status until 1967. It might have been more accurate to ascribe another color entirely to Gaza.
I like the birthright program. My older son went on it, and was critical that it wasn’t serious enough, and proceeded to study with a Habad rabbi and is now a committed Habadnik (in a very enlightened and compassionate approach, that not all do).
My younger son will likely take the trip also, probably more for the trip itself and also the opportunity to check out Jewish and middle eastern music, melodies and scales that he includes in his band’s compositions. (Klezmer, Arab scales, mixed with world music).
At least Richard Silverstein embraces the Israeli multi-cultural music scene (even as he adopts cultural boycott. I’ve never understood the reconciliation of that short of what is convenient. If you are going to give something up, give it up.)
Note that the words “Palestine” or “Palestinian” appear nowhere in Witty’s post. That’s pretty telling, isn’t it?
Actually, Richard, your response was predictable. Kudos to you, for taking advantage of a US-taxpayer funded program to promote Jewish exceptionalism. You mean Judea, the West Bank and Sumaria are in a lighter blue than the rest of Israel? Oh, that changes everything.
It seems you’re a product of similar indoctrination — you have no ability to step back from your groupthink and realize that you are a glib participant in the erasure of the Palestinian people. How do you think Judea and Sumaria will turn into a dark blue on this map? Only if the ethnic cleansing is allowed to continue to its logical conclusion — decimate the citizenry, starve the children, force them to die of malnutrition or disease, or — to speed things up — cut off the smuggling tunnels and launch Operation Cast Lead 2.
Actually, Richard, your response was predictable. Kudos to you, for taking advantage of a US-taxpayer funded program to promote Jewish exceptionalism. You mean Judea, the West Bank and Sumaria are in a lighter blue than the rest of Israel? Oh, that changes everything.
It seems you’re a product of similar indoctrination — you have no ability to step back from your groupthink and realize that you are a glib participant in the erasure of the Palestinian people. How do you think Judea and Sumaria will turn into a dark blue on this map? Only if the ethnic cleansing is allowed to continue to its logical conclusion — decimate the citizenry, starve the children, force them to die of malnutrition or disease, or — to speed things up — cut off the smuggling tunnels and launch Operation Cast Lead 2.
Hey, hey, lets get vainly esoteric while Palestinians are starved to death (and murdered en masse by USA weapon gifts to Israel) with the full backing of the USA; the general attitude in many places especially in Israel
is that one is not allowed to disagree with chazon Ish in particular
and with gedolim in general. This is independent of the strength of
ones arguments.
There is a speech of Rav Schach in which he attacks the hesder yeshivot
for saying Hallel on yom haatzmaut. His argument is that Chazon Ish
didn’t say hallel and therefore anyone who does say hallel thinks
he is better than Chazon Ish and therefore a fool.
There is no attempt at any rational discussion merely calling of
names against anyone with audacity to disagree with Chazon Ish.
A similar situation cam up when Rav Schach attacked Chabad for
introducing chumrot into their Mikvaot. If Chazon Ish didn’t hold
of the chumra than no one is allowed to use that chumra because
it implies that he is better than Chazon Ish.
Do you personally feel that Rav Moshe was unique in his openess and that
is what made him into great posek that he was?
Should I ask Joe The Plumber?
Wow, Citizen, for a non-Jew (or so you claim) you do the lingo pretty damn good.
Shit, at this point I think you could “pass” better than me.
This is one of the few times I’ve hoped that a couple of paragraphs (the second and third) were actually cut-n-paste.
“Shit, at this point I think you could “pass” better than me.”
Assuming of course, I submitted to radical rhinoplasty and a good hard polling!
Hey, Mooser, just chalk it up to living in the Chicago area Jewish community for 30 years and being married to a Jew. What’s your excuse?
Don’t tell me you were in the US Army as a teen-ager. That might account for you. I know its not that, so what’s your story, so how have you managed to not quite be Dick Witty?
If you want to think that Dick Witty is representative of Jews, I can’t stop you. If you will insist, in the face of all evidence, that you can find some kind of “jewish” character traits, I can’t stop you. Good luck, and may your search be rewarded.
Do I remember wrong, or hasn’t it been rewarded in one area already? And if you do well in that area, you’re a fortunate man.
Nice little straw man response, Mooser.
“The blue in the map states names by which the areas are referred, and the light blue as distinct from the dark blue indicated to me that the lands are NOT assertively regarded as part of Israel, but under Israeli temporary jurisdiction.”
The notion that light blue is meant to indicate “temporary Israeli jurisdiction” strikes me as far-fetched. If the West Bank is indeed a different country, why not use a different color entirely (as was done for instance with the Gaza strip)? Why not mention the Palestinians? Why include the biblical names Samaria and Judea?
It seems clear to me this is an attempt to make young people see the West Bank as a natural and legitimate part of Israel. To me the light blue indicates an effort to suggest that the West Bank does indeed belong to Israel but the acquisition is still a work in progress.
If you are going to apologize for Israel, Witty, at least use plausible explanations.
Under “temporary Israeli jurisdiction” since 1967.
“‘I like the birthright program.”‘
Spoken like a true supermacist.
Too bad apartheid S Africa didn’t have its own US targeted Birthright program? BTW, who funds the Birthright program, and do they get US tax breaks? Are US taxpayers
basically paying for this zionist apartheid education?
Of course it is tax deductible, and you are paying for Apartheid
“This organization is tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. It is eligible to receive contributions deductible as charitable donations for federal income tax purposes.”
BIRTHRIGHT ISRAEL
So, in fact David Duke pays for it via his IRS return.
As I said before, and amply proved, depending on the affiliation you also get a good tour through portions of the OT settlements and businesses. Some even have credits on college courses for studying settlements.
Education.
link to forward.com
The “roots” section is propaganda incarnate.
And Dick’s son is a chabadnik. That explains a few **cough** things.
Dick Wittington’s son is a chabadnik? Oh, that’s rich.
Oh well, and wasn’t Phil a neo-conservative for a while, and not so long ago? What a world!
Yes, it is amazing what some people will do to keep what they perceive to be “family solidarity.” I found that out about the Hitch (Hitchens) a while back – many thought he went off his rocker when he jumped the progressive ship and became a bit of a right winger. We came to find out later that his son got hooked up with ultra right wing think tanks and media, so ‘daddy” suddenly went off his rocker too.
Wow, that does explain a lot if it’s true.
Witty has revealed himself to be a liar, we all know that. But he apparentally supports the settlements (under the cover of ‘enough!’) and has defended the crimes of the Hebron settlers by superficially referring to the disparity in population (as if it mattered – p.s. Dick, did you know those inbred freaks have their own private army and can carry weapons around too?).
Anyways, the link between Witty and Jewish fundamentalism/supremacy does not surprise me. Phil was a neocon you say? I don’t believe that.
“Phil was a neocon you say? I don’t believe that.”
If I am not mistaken, he snuck in under the “Scoop Jackson Democrat” rubric, was a Zionist and ambivalent about Clinton (those poor boys by the RR track…) and from there it was a short hop to neo-conservatism and support for the War on Iraq.
And then he saw he was mistaken, and started looking in other directions.
That’s what I gathered from his posts here, or a dream I had after eating two home-made Philly steak sandwiches with underdone green peppers. ( Good steak tho- we buy primal NY strips at the Cash n’ Carry, slice em into steaks and roasts and freeze ‘em. Saves lots money, too.)
But what does it matter? Once he headed done the anti-Zionist (for lack of a more exact word) Jews-only road, he was off in a whole new direction.
Hitchens has a son??
Some woman actually did THAT with Him?
ew.
Yes, it is true. Here is the scoop on another site –
“Look who’s Christopher Hitchens’ son!!
Alexander Meleagrou-Hitchens (born 1984) is an American think tank operative who undertook his higher education in London and has worked in US right wing and neconservative think tanks. Since 2007-9 he has worked – in particular on Islam – successively at Standpoint, Policy Exchange and the Centre for Social Cohesion.[1] He has also blogged at the Henry Jackson Society website.[2] He is the son of the journalist Christopher Hitchens….
Meleagrou-Hitchens has been closely involved in attacking allegedly extremist Islamic or anti-Zionist figures. He runs Standpoint magazine’s Focus on Islamism blog. ”
HITCHENS HULLABALOO
You live and learn every day, it appears that some will do anything in order to maintain family solidarity. It feeds a sort of ingrown process among the generations at times, unfortunately in some cases. We, in my family are the supposed pariahs to the extended, called shameful kapos (mom, dad, sister). It is like one big dysfunctional community when it comes to Israel. Sometimes you just don’t have the heart to tell them that you do not dive a damn. They are going to lose this generation and have already lost in many instances big time.
Gee, does Senator Lieberman have a son who’s been a grunt in the US Army, lumpy cookie-face and all? How far can you go?
Canaan must be returned to the Canaanites, and Israelite leaders severely punished for their practice of genocide.
A strange way of putting it, but if that Biblical nomenclature turns you on, at least your heart’s in the right place, or somewhere within spitting distance of it.
And yet it is most probable that the current Palestinians are descendants of all who have lived in the area – Jews, Canaanites (assuming the dubious reliability of the religious texts), Christians, and anyone else who lived in the area.
In effect Palestinians have been there before, during and after the Roman expulsions.
We will see if Zionists can not do to the Palestinians what Romans apparently did to the Jews.
When in Israel, do as the Romans did.
Those who claim themselves as “Palestinians” are Arabs who conquered and occupied the Land of Israel and kept it under Islamic foreign domination since 638 when they swept in to this area of the Middle East fulfilling the Muhammedanian charge to use the sword (eventually, they ended up at Vienna’s gates and in southern France) and up to 1917. Yes, there may have been some intermarrying with the Jewish remnant that managed to remain in the country, as well as Christians who, of course were Jews after all who opted out of the faith. As for Canaanites, I really don’t think there were any left by then. Yes, the Arabs now claim to be descendants of Canaanites, Jebusites and whatnot and even Ben-Gurion and Ben-Tzvi presumed as you do, Edwin, but the vast Jewish population now in Israel is the returning exiles from over 70 nations all over. And we don’t want to do anything like the Romans did to the Jews. They had a chance at a state in 1947 (and probably would have wiped out Israel in five years or so had they accepted that option). They had a chance at overthrowing Jordanian rule between 1949-1967 but except for a few Communists among them really didn’t do anything after Abdallah was assassinated by a Mufti follower. They had a chance at self-rule in 1979 but blew it. They had a chance at a state following the Oslo Accords in 1993 but blew it and began blowing themselves up, literally. They had a chance at 97% Second Camp David 2000-2001 and rejected it. They had a chance with Olmert & Livni in 2006-2009 at refused.
Maybe they really don’t want a state but prefer to play with bombs and just kill Jews?
The person who made this booklet available asked for opinions as to the timeline. I took a preliminary look at the timeline, which is obviously an extremely abbreviated history. I first looked to the all important 1947-1949 period. Not surprisingly, the timeline tells the usual Hasbara story of those years – the UN resolution of 11/29/47 (mistakenly given as 11/24); the end of the mandate and declaration of statehood on 5/14/48; and the invasion of five Arab armies and the beginning of war on 5/15. What stood out to me is that this version of these events has been shifting. The official line had been that the refugee crisis was caused by the invasion of Arab armies that launched the war. In recent years, some have noticed the chronological problem that several hundred thousand refugees already had fled their homes prior to 5/15. Much of this happened in response to the Deir Yassin massacre of Arab civilians by Jewish forces on 4/9, which was the most notorious but hardly the only such massacre. In order to blame “the Arabs” for causing the refugees to flee, it became necessary to accuse them of dire acts before the flight began. One could hardly say that the invasion of 5/15 caused prior flight of refugees. As usual, Alan Dershowitz has come to the rescue. Instead of talking about the events of 5/15/48 as starting the war, he has talked about the war beginning in 1947, which of course must have been the fault of “the Arabs” as well. Decades of carefully cultivated propaganda about the five (sometimes seven) Arab armies launching hostilities on 5/15 to strangle the newborn state in its crib has been subtly modified. I have seen the Dersh movie “The Case for Israel.” It is not easy to change history, especially from one lie to another, but the movie gives it the old college try. In the movie, Michael Oren now claims that the hostilities began on 11/30/47, the day after the UN resolution, when Arab forces began fighting in response to partition. This mirrors the old claim that Arabs began fighting on 5/15, the day after Israeli statehood was declared. Interestingly, the movie makes great use of Benny Morris, leftist turned rightist historian, who tells us that there was no deliberate overall plan to kill Arab civilians and provoke mass flight of refugees. Morris, whose rightward political shift has not been accompanied by an abandonment of all integrity, still acknowledges that Deir Yassin was only one of no less than 24 massacres of Arab civilians undertaken by Jewish/Israeli forces. But you won’t find that in the movie, of course. Anyway, the Birthright timeline simply doesn’t have space to account for these complexities, so it reverts to the simple 5/14 statehood and 5/15 Arab invasion story that has served so well in decades past.
The other thing I noticed in my brief look at the timeline was the claim that in 1982, “Operation Peace in Galilee” was “launched to end PLO attacks from Lebanon.” This was the first Lebanon War, in which 15 to 20,000 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians were killed, culminating in the Sabra/Shattila massacres perpetrated by Lebanese Phalangist militia under the approving eye of Israeli forces. The supposed cause of this war is one of the greatest achievements of Hasbara. It is widely believed that PLO attacks from Lebanon were the cause (as some believe that Hezbollah attacks against civilians were the cause of the 2006 War.) Even people who make an attempt at being even-handed, such as Jimmy Carter and Shlomo Ben-Ami, repeated this claim in their books. The truth, however, was portrayed accurately in contemporaneous accounts. There had been a cease fire in place for nearly a year, which the PLO had scrupulously honored. Israel, in the meantime, was busily preparing for war and itching to find an excuse. Finally, they got their chance when Shlomo Argov, the Israeli Ambassador to the UK, was shot and paralyzed in early June, 1982. Begin claimed that this was a violation of the cease fire and launched the war under the direction of Def. Minister Sharon. The effort to portray this as a defensive measure against PLO attacks began immediately, and many people today actually remember rocket attacks against Israeli civilians, which were non-existent, as precipitating the war. Interestingly, Michael Oren, in his book about the US relationship with the Middle East over the centuries, made the same “mistake,” and it was caught by an alert reviewer in the NYTimes in an otherwise favorable review.
As to the reading list, I have read The Case for Israel but only briefly perused The Case for Peace. The former is a book that literally lies on almost every page. It would take a longer book to dissect those lies. The latter contains an extensive denunciation of Finkelstein’s accurate accusation that Dershowitz not only lied in The Case for Israel, but also plagiarized it from Joan Peters, and alerts the world to the conspiracy between Finkelstein, Alex Cockburn and Chomsky. This was part of Dersh’s vendetta against Finkelstein that was probably responsible for his termination from DePaul U.
Pretty good review there David, isn’t it amazing how “history” mutates? Napoleon said history is several people getting together trying to figure out what lies they are going to tell (loosely).
Also, I noticed how you picked up on the “revolutionary moment” as conceived by Zionists. It is always interesting how they incite the issues that they later decry and than declare war, not unlike many other nations of course. Myths abound for murderous colonial states, it never fails.
Excellent review Samel.
See this is my problem with Phil’s inane quest to ‘reform’ the American Jewish community.
First off, it’s self-serving. It’s like the ‘save Israel from itself’ line.
When Israeli history is revealed to contain lie after lie after lie, I regard those who support Israel as liars as well. It might hold ‘emotional’ truth to them, but that’s like a delusion. It’s like how Witty has to go to such great lengths to lie. He has to use all this superficial rhetoric. So much diversion. So many equivocations. He has to do that, because facing the issue head on doesn’t help his case.
Like Emily Hauser, who made one post and then left as soon as people began to criticize her denial of the colonization of Palestine.
I guess it’s because the people writing and talking about this stuff are Jewish, that several conditions are imposed about how probing people will be.
I admit, even the other day when my dad (who is a Republican, voted for Bush twice and McCain…) asked me about all the books I was reading. Most are on I-P. I am reading a lot on the Christian Right too.
One book in particular caught his interest. It was Walid Khalidi’s picture-history book on Palestine. It shows all these pictures of Palestinian society before 48′.
Anyways, he asked me why I was reading this stuff. I didn’t even know where to begin.
It’s like how do you broach a topic that is presented soooooo superficially and dishonestly in the mainstream? People have a perception of Arabs and Muslims in general, in the framework of a Saturday morning cartoon.
I wasn’t unable to explain, but it took me awhile. It’s hard to talk about this topic because there’s simply SO much to talk about…
I guess I can’t imagine what it must be like for Phil to talk about this to his parents or friends who are Jewish. That social pressure is real. We can sit here and talk about it easily on the net, but it’s different IRL.
Cliff,
We AZ Jews all have our own reasons for wanting to engage other Jews, but the bottom line – whether you or I like it or not – is that nothing will change for Palestinians, unless we change a lot of Jewish hearts and minds in Israel and around the world (particularly in the US, of course). To pre-empt the fluff-peddlers, when I say engage, I do not mean pander, although we do need to choose our battles and adopt appropriate strategies.
I don’t know. My biggest problem in my family specifically, is either apathy (cousin) or apathy + right-wing (my dad).
Cousin is a smart guy/etc. but he just doesn’t care. I don’t understand how people cannot care about politics.
My dad will never read the books I recommend. He doesn’t really read. He’s a well-established doctor (most of my family is) but he, and ‘they’ do not talk about this stuff. Even though they all vote.
I guess, he’s always tired and can’t deal w/ reading stuff that isn’t related to his profession? Although he tells me, that after awhile the job is like clockwork. My aunt is an OBGYN and it’s the same thing, although she does have some harsh things to say about Jewishness.
Not antisemitic, but just ‘blunt’. I think it has to do w/ us being Indian and just being sort of detached from the bubble of American political culture.
Although, I feel very much a part of that bubble since I’m Americanized having grown up here. So I feel the taboos/etc.
And you can kind of pick up on the zeitgeist.
Anyways, I do agree that it’s important. I guess I don’t know what purpose it serves though. I’m very cynical about this stuff. I don’t give much credit to people who haven’t done their own research. And that’s most people. So if you factor in a tight-knit community with a tragic history, like Jewish people then it’s even harder to break through. It’s the ideology you gotta deal w/ and then the standards that apply to everyone (like, not know about the Nakba or something).
I do agree though, that it’s important still. What I would prefer is the Arab American and Muslims community to be more united and visible. To emulate the activism of Christian liberation theology / peace movement during the 70s/80s in opposition to Reagan’s adventures in Latin/Central America.
Before political Islam, it was Christian peace movements that were the ‘spiritual enemy’ of the Christian Right (Greg Grandin’s book Empire’s Workshop).
And of course, the activism and organization of anti-Zionist Jews and groups like Jewish Voice for Peace is inspiring. I don’t say much about them, because I take it for granted. I bring up the Christian stuff since I don’t see it mentioned.
And I don’t talk about Arab/Islamic groups in the US because I don’t know much about them.
Probably not even on topic at this point, but I’ve been reading about the Christian Right and they are very organized. Chomsky was saying lately, that ‘we’ (the anti-war movement and such) should emulate their intensity and organized/etc.
I agree. I do feel like our side isn’t as organized and mobilized as of late.
You are very sure of yourself about issues and history that it is impossible to be sure of.
“What really happened”, didn’t. Not the story that Zionism tells, nor the story that you tell.
Both happened is more accurate.
Which means that some reconciliation of narratives in the present (a new present) is the name of the game, not a selection of narratives.
BOTH the great liberation of the Jewish people in Zion AND the nakba occurred.
How on earth did Zionism “liberate” Jewish people? What is liberating about acting out white racist fantasies, especially for American emigres, while carrying out occupation and ethnic cleansing? How is that a positive contribution is that to Judaism?
You should start a blog Cliff.
You seem to have a knack for identifying “identity” issues and exploring them in a very rational manner.
That’s right, Cliff, and notice Shmuel does it too! Okay, does anybody have the slightest bit of proof that you can persuade Zionists of anything? So why waste your time trying? Their own ideology forbids them from being persuaded by “outsiders” (I hope poor Phil doesn’t think he isn’t one).
Israel will do only what it is FORCED to do. ( Why, anything else would be, to use a Wittycism, “forced assimilation”!) Not persuaded. They are insensible to that.
As for the motives of anyone who goes on insisting Israel can be “changed”, I don’t have knowing.
But it’s gonna be fun when Phil runs straight up against the fact that the only methods of changing Israel involve things he is not willing to do? Will he sigh, and go back to being a Zionist, or will he “strap on the vest”?
Frankly, in either case, it’ll be Israel’s loss, but they won’t know it, or care.
I think Ali Abunimah made the point of addressing Israeli/Jewish fears without becoming hostage to them (if I’m wrong on who it was, someone please correct me).
I do try to change the “hearts and minds” of the Jewish community. I volunteer within it and even know a former employee of AIPAC. The lobby is mostly Jewish and it is the enabler of Israel. We must stop it because of the privilege we gain as Jews from Israel’s discriminatory policies and because Zionist/right-wing Jews are more likely to listen to us, whether we like this sort of tribalism or not. This is not about hand-wringing and crying about our lovely tradition that is being desecrated (that shit drives me nuts), it is about realizing “OK, it is mostly Jews who are responsible for the American Zionist lobby and as Jews we need to use our positions to try to change them.”
I also agree with the point about organization. The anti-war/pro-Palestinian movement is unbelievably fragmented, in many ways sectarian (i.e. Jewish groups vs. Muslim vs. Christian vs. Arab)
A few of us have noticed what you have noticed, DS; but thanks indeed for sharing
your analysis. We can only imagine how you would (rightfully) debunk Dick Witty’s hasbara version of
the cause and effect timeline for OP Cast Lead.
This is nothing new. A Russian friend of mine who immigrated to Israel in 1999 got this map:
link to fasttimesinpalestine.wordpress.com
(Scroll to the last photograph on the page.)
The West Bank isn’t marked at all. The only thing that’s marked (shaded in grey) is Area A, that 19% of the Palestinian territories that nominally come under Palestinian security control (but Israeli soldiers enter at will while Israeli civilians are prevented from entering by Israeli law). If this doesn’t get across the depth of Israeli illusion regarding “Judea and Samaria,” I don’t know what does.
Not new at all. I can remember when Begin became PM in the 70s and announced that ‘Judaea and Samaria’ were not occupied but liberated territories.
And when Shamir was PM, state TV and all official spokesmen were instructed to use the name Judea and Samaria (Yehudah ve-Shomron) rather than the neutral Gaddah Ma’aravit (West Bank).
Ironically, many now consider “West Bank” the more “politicised” of the terms.
No wonder Jordanians get nervous when Israelis use the biblical Rabbat Ammon for the city of Amman.
When I go back on visits, I’m always struck by the causal tone of the weather man/or woman when they say in Hebrew “15 degrees in Judea and Samaria, 10 in Jerusalem and 18 in Eilat”. To my ear it sounds like fingernails scratching a chalkboard.
Although, soldiers usually refer to the West Bank as “The Territories” (Ha Shtachim). I mean they wouldn’t want to say that they are committing all those egregious acts in Judea and Samaria as that would imply they are brutalizing Jews in colonies.
I’ve always wondered why the Samaritans don’t agitate for the return of all Samaria.
Funny thought! I suspect the reason is that they are an old and indigenous phenomenon and not a 19th century romantic nationalist European one.
I mentioned before that I have been on birthright. They don’t go to Judea / Samaria however. It was really apolitical from what I recall.
Yeah, and like I said before and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt BSD, it all depends on what affiliation you have to Birthright what group you go with. Do we need to rehearse this again, is you’re retention rate bad? Am I going to have to post a link to the previous conversation?
(Note in the link, that Shmuel is also having to re-post for BSD because he “forgets.”)
Note the Birthright graduates in the links, the videos, visiting settler businesses, and credits for studying settlements, etc.
POSTING REPEATS ITSELF
An interesting anecdote about Birthright, if anyone cares to read. They have a fantastic whitewashing strategy.
I took the trip (yes, I’m embarrassed now). At one point, we passed a group of Arabs on our bus and some idiot yelled “derka derka!” at them. Immediately the guides reprimanded him. At the time I thought they might have been peaceniks. What I realize now is that it’s a strategy to get American Jews, who never stay longer than a week, to believe that Israel is this wonderful society where there is no racism. That way they have “real stories” to tell people who think otherwise.
Forgot to mention that I believe this map is part of the same whitewashing strategy as their approach to open, vulgar racism from participants, Max Blumenthal videos notwithstanding.
JSC, well…you know how it is when you are home with the family as opposed to with mixed company, right? I find this to be a good rule of thumb.
‘derka derka’
I can’t stand that. That meme is so pervasive it’s disgusting. My sister told me when she was home for Christmas break, that some boys at school called her a terrorist and Muslim.
We’re Indian. Atheist, etc. Not that being Arab/Muslim is wrong, but obviously the context in which the idiot boy used it, was negative. Kind of like the crazy hill-billy at the McCain rally.
Oh and she goes to the same private high school I went to. Very nice school, top 10 or something private schools in the country (7 years ago at least). The built a lot of new buildings since then. New headmaster now. Old one brought tons of money in, and a lot of teachers use to gossip that that was the problem. That our education standards were dropping and we were focusing too much on sports.
However, if you open a brochure for the school, you’ll see a picture of multiculturalism and blah blah. It’s still a good school, but there are tons of problems beneath the surface.
Can’t blame the school exactly for that stupid kid though I guess. It just sort of contradicts the ‘brochure’ image of the school. (all ‘brochure’ images, really)
My son that became a habadnik had an experience at his then new junior high school from us moving to a new home, of an idiot writing all over his textbooks when he found out my son was Jewish, “Hitler should have finished the job”.
The response to that crap played on the scale of hundreds of thousands of incidents is Zionism. It doesn’t have to be expansionist, but it had and likely has to be.
Mr. Witty,
Pretty much every religious Jew has been called some name or heard some crap at some point, including myself.
Explain to me why Palestinians should pay for the that. Why should Palestinians pay because your son was insulted by some moron because he was Jewish? That really is the heart of the matter.
Tell the Palestinians whose entirely family was incinerated or burned alive from white phosphorus that “well my family suffered sixty years ago and someone picked on my son, so that means you have to burn.”
Or, you could tell the Palestinians kicked out of their lands in 1948 that well, because of something the Germans did, we’ve decided that no only will we colonize your land, we can’t coexist and you must be ethnically cleansed.
Try thinking from a different perspective for once and you’ll realize how horribly unjust Zionism and its implementation has been.
Apologies for the typos.
Ben-Gurion himself said something along the lines that I just mentioned, that Palestinians will always resist Israel because they will wonder why they had to pay for the crimes of the Germans.
“The response to that crap played on the scale of hundreds of thousands of incidents is Zionism. It doesn’t have to be expansionist, but it had and likely has to be.”
Not sure if you meant that last part the way it sounded, but the way it sounded was probably right–Zionist had to be expansionist. That is, given how people are, it was almost inevitable that a liberation movement that set its sites on land already inhabited by Arabs would turn expansionist and ugly and end up becoming intolerant and violent. It started fairly early on.
I don’t really think it HAD to be expansionist–there were some idealists who didn’t want it to be like that. But communism didn’t HAVE to lead to the Gulag. Some, perhaps many, communists were idealists. Given the circumstances, though, along with the unpleasant facts of human nature, it wasn’t too surprising that it turned out the way it did.
Exactly JSC
Memoirs : David Ben-Gurion (1970), p. 36
” I don’t understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations’ time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it’s simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out. “
It had to be (existence). It does not have to be expansionist.
That’s a fair point, Donald. There was the Magnes/Buber/Arendt/Einstein branch of idealistic, binationalists in the 1940s who considered themselves Zionists. Trouble is, no one listened to them.
It couldn’t exist without some expanding right at the start–there was no way to have a Zionist state without taking over some Arab land against their will. The denial of this is a big part of the problem.
The significance of the Balfour Declaration was that it was an attempt at having the British do their dirty work for them. It didn’t ultimately pan out that way.
Yeah, and nowadays their position wouldn’t even be considered “Zionist” now.
Funny how things work out that way. I’ve read Buber and Arendt on Zionism and they were just unbelievably prescient about how it would turn out.
Sure Witty, please, c’mon and tell us how the Jews in America had it worse than the Blacks or Indians or Asians.
So one incident of social antisemitism drove your son out of his mind? Gotta be a bit tougher than that if you want to be a Jew.
Amazing, isn’t it how lynching, slavery, Jim Crow, Alien Exclusion, Native American genocide, and a host of other ills in the US disappear when one disturbed youngster writes slurs one a fellow student’s notebook.
Of course, Witty you had the courage to report the act, so this obviously disturbed youngster could get some counseling? I mean, what if he wants to work in media some day?
Of course, I’m sure your son inherited the easy-going, openly truthful, and humanitarian personality which does so much to make the commenters here love you, and that’s why, except for that one anti-Semite, he was universally loved and respected by all. I bet he was a real excrescence.
Your argumentation against the map is silly.
a) Judea & Samaria are the terms even the UN used in its 1947 Partition resolution.
b) Judea and Samaria are indeed the proper historical geographic names, Bible or not.
c) Gaza is green probably because that’s the Hamas color, no?
d) the blue of J&S is a different shade of blue and Gaza too so in any case so there is a differentiation.
You may call yourselves “progressives” but you sound like a parody of Bob Dylan’s “Talking John Birch Blues”:
Well, I was feelin’ sad and feelin’ blue,
I didn’t know what in the world I was gonna do,
Them Zionists they wus comin’ around,
They wus in the air,
They wus on the ground.
They wouldn’t gimme no peace. . .
So I run down most hurriedly
And joined up with the Birthright Society,
I got me a secret membership card
And started off a-walkin’ down the road.
Yee-hoo, I’m a real Birthrighter now!
Look out you Zionists!
…Well, I wus lookin’ everywhere for them gol-darned Zionists.
I got up in the mornin’ ‘n’ looked under my bed,
Looked in the sink, behind the door,
Looked in the glove compartment of my car.
Couldn’t find ‘em . . .
Aren’t you a settler?
Sorry, I don’t really give a shit what a thief has to say.
Did you come here to parade your criminality around while your goon army protects you? (from the people whose land you’ve stolen)
It’s the West Bank. It’s Gaza, and it’s Palestine.
No, I’m a revenant.
Neither do I give anything fecal about you. You happy now?
No, I don’t need any army. Truth is my most important weapon.
And it’s Eretz Yisrael.
If truth is the most important weapon, then why did you Zionists need to push out 800,000 Palestinians in 48′? Why not just tell them you had inherently more right to land, they had been living upon, already?
If truth is the most important weapon, then why did you Zionists need to indiscriminately kill civilians and destroy civilian infrastructure in Gaza? And then, refuse to cooperate in an investigation of war crimes? And then simply dismiss the entire report as ‘antisemitic’?
If truth is the most important weapon, then why do you need hasbrara? Why do you need PR handbooks to communicate Zionism to the rest of the world? If truth is the most important weapon, why do you subjugate an entire people. Discriminate against them, employ all manner of legal bullshit, crooked politics, and fascism to break their will?
It will always be Palestine, you phony.
You’re a vampire? That fits, the Zionist occupation of Palestine does resemble a bunch of bloodsuckers draining the lifeforce of the conquered population.
Whoa, Cliff, this guys a nutter, I’d stay as far away as possible.
My bible is truth, my truth is biblical; every bit of it, but especially the very scientific Eretz Yisrael, albeit piecemeal; we just need more blood and treasure from the USA goy masses; we’re gettin’ it; it’s a pleasure. Want some plastic legs?
@ymedad
Eretz Yisrael will fall down like Nazism, and believe me the process started already. You are destroying Israel. Your place is in the trash of history, you killer, you ZioNazi.
740,000 or so left during a war.
The expulsion occurred in the early 50′s with the denial of return and military expropriation of land.
The attempted ethnic cleansing of Jews from the region occurred earlier in the 20, 29, 36-39, 47 Arab uprisings.
Truth is the important weapon. Half-truths are the important deception. Try filling in your blanks.
Have you ever started in a conflict hoping to end it, then have it spin out and spin out and spin out. I’m sure you have, given the tone that you bring to this. I’m sure you’ve fought and escalated ad infinitum.
Your very sure of your story. Have you read Morris? Have you read history from a responsible non-dogmatic Zionist perspective? Or, is that another voice of “theives” that you feel no responsibility to understand clearly?
I’d recommend Sachar’s History of Israel, or Lapierre’s History of Zionism.
You gotta learn this.
I hope you heard Phil’s assertion that seemed to diverge from Blankfurt, Finkelstein’s and others, of the importance of persuasion of the Jewish community, and the impotence of bludgeoning, as gratifying as your “integrity” is.
I don’t think you’ve read too much of Morris, Witty, or not the parts where he talks about two dozen Israeli massacres in 1948 or where he rants about the need for superior cultures to ethnically cleanse the inferior ones. He is worth reading, though for two reasons–he does tell some of the unpleasant truth about Zionism and his own attitudes are openly racist, though he doesn’t seem to know it. Some of the Palestinians who fled their homes weren’t driven out explicitly, while others were, but as you apparently admit, when they weren’t allowed back all of it became ethnic cleansing.
Most rational lefties know there are atrocities committed by both sides–vicious riots in the 20′s for instance, by Arabs against Jewish civilians (though other Arabs helped save Jews, fortunately). In the 30′s both sides committed atrocities–the Zionists were planting bombs in Arab marketplaces. You can find some people (both Arab and Western left) who defend the supposed right of Palestinians to commit terrorist acts and I agree with you that they are wrong. We’d be allies on this if you held the Zionists to the same standard, but unless you’ve changed in the last week or so, you don’t.
And while violence against innocents is never justified, the Arabs in the 20′s were right to be outraged by Zionism and the Balfour Declaration–one would think any decent Zionist with hopes of living in peace and equality with the Arabs would have been ashamed of that document, rather than pleased by it.
I’ve read two books by Morris, most notably “Righteous Victims”.
He nor I deny wrongs, but we both deny the conclusion that the incidents and some specific strategies are the sole truth of the events at the time.
The kindness by some Arabs towards their long coexisting specific neighbors mirrors the kindness by some Jews towards Arabs that were being harrassed by Irgun. As Morris points out, it was orthodox Jewish neighbors of Deir Yassin that confronted the Irgun during their massacre.
I get Arab’s outrage, their impression that Zionists sought to remove them, but the consequence of their raging was that Zionists then needed to protect themselves.
The Balfour Declaration was a declaration of acceptance of the land as Jewish homeland. It itself was not a carte blanche to exclusivivity. The separation and expropriation came much later, and as a consequence of very violent conflict and specifically the duplicity of terror.
When that occurred after 1945, to holocaust survivors, it was experienced as remininiscent of their neighbors hating them in Hungary, France, Rumania, Poland, Germany, Russia. Their reaction was natural. And, the uninterrupted sequence of harrassment since, created/creates a verifiable culture of need for defense.
The extent and manner of relationship is a necessary dialog among Jews, and the humane should prevail. The suicidal “request” won’t.
Witty, you’ve shown over and over again that you don’t know truth and you often have an aversion to reading certain material prior to commenting on it so for you to lecture others here on the truth is ridiculous. This is nothing new.
The attempted ethnic cleansing of Jews from the region occurred earlier in the 20, 29, 36-39, 47 Arab uprisings.
You keep repeating this nonsense as if repeating it will make it true. It isn’t. There was no “attempted ethnic cleansings of Jews” either in the eruptions of violence in the early twenties, nor in 1929, nor in the 36-39 Arab Uprising, nor in 1947, except on a very limited scale by Britain in forcing the 400 something Jews out of Hebron during the 36-39 time period .
The earlier riots, in which both Jews and non-Jewish Palestinians were killed, can not seriously be called attempts at “ethnic cleansing” by either side, but were a predictable outcome of the planned expropriation of government by the Zionist foreigners. Foreign Jews were coming to Palestine with the intent to set up a government answerable only to them, and had already displaced Palestinian fellahin by enforcing JNF convenants that forbade any non-Jew from working on Jewish owned land.
There is no equivalence between what happened to the Jews in Palestine and what happened to the Palestinians before, during and after the 1948 War. Your position is morally bankrupt.
And your two recommended books, which you have recommended here ad infinitum, are from the 1970′s, which was prior to the unlocking of Israeli archives from the relevant period. (Assuming of course that when you wrote “Lapierre” you really meant Laquer.) Have you bothered to read anything since? Or did the one and only truth arrive in the 1970′s, making it unnecessary for you to read anything else?
You have no moral standing to lecture others on learning the truth when you have refused over and over again to read relevant material that conflicts with your approved fantasy.
“He nor I deny wrongs, but we both deny the conclusion that the incidents and some specific strategies are the sole truth of the events at the time.”
Actually, Richard, Morris defends ethnic cleansing. He says so in a link I provided to you a few weeks ago in terms that were racist both towards Arabs and towards Native Americans, whose ethnic cleansing he also defended. He’s consistent anyway. Apparently you refused to read the link or averted your eyes, though really, Morris’s views are no secret and you shouldn’t have needed me to tell you this. And you do deny wrongs–you defend the blockade and in this very post it’s unclear whether you admit that it wasn’t just the Irgun that committed massacres in 1948. I can’t say this for sure, since it’s been awhile, but I also think Morris becomes less honest about Israeli atrocities as one comes closer to the present. I think he gave a somewhat sanitized version of the 1982 war, but I’d have to go back and check. And his reaction to the Second Intifada seems hysterical, the sort of reaction one gets from a man who no longer sees the crimes committed by the home team. I’d be surprised if he wasn’t an apologist for the blockade on Gaza and the Gaza War, but I haven’t checked.
As for history–There was apparently a sense of racist contempt and violence on an individual level shown by Zionists to Arabs as far back as 1891, based on the letter by Ahad Ha’am quoted by Tom Segev. The Balfour Declaration promised political rights to Jews, not to Arabs, only claiming that the other inhabitants rights would not be violated, which is self-contradictory. Lobbying for such a declaration was not something you’d expect from a group trying to live in complete equality with its Arab neighbors–it looks a lot more like the Zionists trying to get the British imperialists to impose a Jewish state on the Arabs with or without their consent. There is no people on earth that would not have been outraged by such a thing. I’ve always thought it was some peculiar self-imposed blindness that prevented Zionists even up to the present from seeing how arrogant this was.
I agree that some of the Zionist atrocities were “natural” given the circumstances, though in the same sense that Arab atrocities were “natural”. They still are not excusable. It boils down to armed men murdering unarmed men, women, and children and it’s contemptible no matter what the background is. And yes, there have always been decent people on both sides, though by and large not in positions of power.
Donald, its not often mentioned, but another significant example of the ZIonist blindness to arrogance is the JNF covenants on all the land they purchased. These covenants, which forbade the resale of the land to anyone other than a Jew, also forbade the working of the land by anyone other than a Jew, when it began being enforced in the late teens and early twenties, led to the dispossession of Palestinian tenant farmers which in turn led to considerable Palestinian resentment. And yet Zionists will continue to claim that Palestinian anger and fear of a Zionist takeover are somehow inexplicable, as if they cannot possibly fathom how an ethno-religious restrictive covenant could be seen as a negative (unless of course that covenant was restrictive AGAINST Jews instead of for them).
And then I could go on about the Zionist inspired “conquest of labor”, where Jews were urged to employ only other Jews, Arab produce was boycotted and intentionally spoiled in the marketplace, and Zionist labor unions continually petitioned the British to hire more Jews and fewer Arabs, and to pay the Jews more than they paid the Arabs. All of this, and the Palestinians are expected in retrospect to consider Zionism just a big friendly gesture. It sounds to me like swallowing Zionism leads to an empathy impairment.
Excellent reply, Donald. If I were able to summon up the energy to decipher Witty and answer him, I would have said the same thing.
I’ve read most of Morris’ recent articles, including leftist analysis, and I’ve never seen him “advocate” for ethnic cleansing. The largest extent of his “racism” that I’ve read is that he stated that separation may be the least violent approach in the long run.
There is certainly conflict implied in the Balfour declaration, especially as presented at the same time as conciliatory negotiation with the Arab world. Two contradictory promises, with some basis of mutuality and some implication of exclusivity.
The fears are rational, the externally motivated ravaging of ancient Jews is not. Its only cruel, only racist.
The characteristic that makes the horrors less likely in the future are mutual humanization. And, that is a different approach than yours.
We differ on willingness to judge. You prefer to excuse Hamas shelling, as less significant than Israeli wrongs, to defer judgement, whereas I name it as at least very poor judgement, and communication of intent to war.
I defer judgement on whether 1948 cruelties were the lesser of wrongs, or the greater. Judgement on that is too opportunist, too self-serving.
Deferring judgement is more humane, expecially when one honestly does not know.
Ah, the great and beneficent Witty, who cannot judge!
He can judge whether Hamas tunnels were defensive or not (they weren’t, he judged), and whether BDS is an appropriate strategy or not (it isn’t, he judged), and he can even judge what your attitudes and emotions are (and they are always WRONG, he judges), but please don’t ask him to make a judgment on whether the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in 1948 was wrong. That would be just too judgmental, when he can much more easily defer judgment until the next millenium on such a question and then pompously pronounce himself a better man than you (again, making another judgment). See if you avoid making all these complex moral judgments it frees one up to make the numerous petty judgments that Witty fills his posts with.
“I’ve read most of Morris’ recent articles, including leftist analysis, and I’ve never seen him “advocate” for ethnic cleansing. The largest extent of his “racism” that I’ve read is that he stated that separation may be the least violent approach in the long run.”
Unfreakingbelievable. This came up just a few weeks ago and I provided the link. Here it is again, just below. And how anyone supposedly well-read could have missed the controversy over Morris’s excuses for ethnic cleansing–well, actually there is one excuse, because in the supposedly liberal American press, such as the NYT, they generally don’t refer to his nakedly racist remarks. Anyway, here they are again. Bother to read them, as you would say.
link
“The fears are rational, the externally motivated ravaging of ancient Jews is not. Its only cruel, only racist.”
True. The fears of the Arabs were entirely justified, but killing innocent Jews was not. I agree with your judgment here.
“The characteristic that makes the horrors less likely in the future are mutual humanization. And, that is a different approach than yours.”
We’ll see what you mean by this in a few more lines.
“We differ on willingness to judge.”
Not so far. We’re both willing to judge the murder of Jews by Arabs as brutal and inexcusable.
“You prefer to excuse Hamas shelling, as less significant than Israeli wrongs, to defer judgement, whereas I name it as at least very poor judgement, and communication of intent to war.”
You are making this up. I’ve told you my position on Hamas’s shelling–it was stupid and immoral. I don’t think it was the cause of the war–Israel caused it. But Hamas’s rockets were war crimes, as Goldstone said. You simply pay no attention to someone’s position if it interferes with your demonizing, do you? Makes it easier to win arguments inside your own head.
“I defer judgement on whether 1948 cruelties were the lesser of wrongs, or the greater. Judgement on that is too opportunist, too self-serving.”
Here it is–my judgmentalism is my willingness to condemn Israeli massacres, whereas you in your wisdom defer judgment, since it is a case of Zionists killing mere Arabs, not so obviously a crime as Arabs killing Jews. This is what you mean by humanization–you condemn without any hedging the massacre of innocent Jewish lives, but defer judgment on the massacre of innocent Arab lives.
Witty is a liar. Big surprise. He is most likely being paid to troll this blog.
Oh, I doubt he’s paid. I think Richard is sincere in the bizarre way one often finds with ideologues incapable of dealing with how reality impinges on their dreams. He hasn’t yet responded to my post or acknowledged that he’s wrong on Morris or my position on Hamas rockets–he has, btw, made that identical false accusation before, been corrected before, and repeats the untruth almost by reflex. He’s unlikely to confront the fact that to him, “humanization” means condemning Arab atrocities against Jews while withholding judgment on Jewish atrocities against Arabs, or that if you do the latter you are being judgmental, but not if you do the former. His history suggests that rather than honestly admit his mistakes and try to do better, he will just run away to another thread and repeat the same false accusations and claims ad nauseam.
“ZioNazi”? Please, wipe the foam off when you write that, or whatever else exudes from you.
ZioNazi is the perfect description of thieves like you. I can recall you the list of the atrocities you committed on the name of ZioNazism
link to youtube.com
Settler, American variety. Lives in Samaria.
Bet he’s not ready to give it back to the Samaritans.
Did they miss the part where our hero volunteered to be a grunt in the USA military?
Silly. Samaritans live in Gerizim Mountain and Bat Yam in Israel. There sort of Jewish and we have no need to give it “back” because the Samaritans are already there enjoying life. But of course you knew that and also that the Samaritans split off from the Jews while we were in exile in Babylon, right?
Honsi Mubarak wouldn’t be pleased to hear that Egypt is colored “Hamas green”.
But then, all them Ayrab are the same, nu?
Wow! A celebrity troll!
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I see Elmer Fud from the OT has come to visit us, only he is not hunting for wabbits…
A fair example of “Jewish geography” for (would be) true believers compared to just plain geography that the rest of the world knows.
Yes, I remember this kucker being interviewed on hard talk, as he stuck his foot in his mouth and kicked, here he is on youtube –
CELEBRITY TROLL
Fascinating interview. I was rather impressed by our friend, ymedad. His comments here are idiotic, but he did very well on the interview. He was perfectly calm and articulate in answering tough questions posed to him by a challenging and intelligent interviewer who came very well prepared. The fact that virtually every single statement ym made could be refuted, and most were blatantly dishonest, should not detract from his performance. He wanted to project an image of a reasonable man with reasonable opinions, and I think he succeeded. Most settlers would have lost their cool at an interview like this, or at least looked as foolish as the woman in the Bob Simon 60 Mins. segment. I can see how ym has become a spokesman for the settler movement. He should not be underestimated. Of course, most visitors to this website would see through his bullshit, but we are not his target audience.
I do wonder why he bothered to comment on this website. He could not have reasonably hoped to convince anyone here, especially with his sophomoric lyrics to a Dylan song, and his creepily comic “I don’t need any army. Truth is my most important weapon. And it’s Eretz Yisrael.” And what the hell is a revenant, anyway? What a curious self-description.
A revenant is one who comes back. From the Latin, re-venire.
He’s trying to evoke the Return of the Chosen People, but unfortunately the word has come to mean one who comes back from the dead, ie a vampire.
Israel as a vampire state?
Oh, and I believe he was trying to impress the readers of his blog, who must be easily impressed. Look what our Fearless Leader did, he went and counted coup on the anti-Zionists in their own lair.
David,
Medad is impressive, and indeed needs to be taken seriously – when he’s not just being an idiot. I think Magnes Zionist has managed to strike a good tone in dealing with his mostly cogent comments on that blog. I admire MZ’s patience though. Medad wouldn’t be able to handle a forum like this, but obviously felt the need to crow about his “exposé” of Mondoweiss on his own blog.
As for the map itself, it’s not the worst part of the booklet. It’s inconsistent (not marking area A in the WB the same as Gaza), and makes a clear political statement in marking Gaza like an Arab country (clearly separate from Egypt, but politically no dfferent from it, or Jordan, Syria, or Lebanon), although still legally under Israeli occupation. The distinction between Gaza and the WB may serve the purpose of distinguishing between “legitimate” Fatah rule and “illegitimate” Hamas rule, or the lack of interest most Israelis have in Gaza altogether, or just another simplification on an intentionally simplified map. The WB and the Golan are correctly distinguished from Israel, with a subtle message in the fact that the colour differentiation is only slight. Birthright is aware of the criticism it has come under for promoting a right-wing agenda and has clearly tried to be “apolitical” (in the Israeli sense of not favouring either a right or a left-wing Zionist perspective) in using both “West Bank” and “Judea/Samaria”.
I have a friend who is an expert in political cartography (both subtle and less subtle), and I’m sure he would be interested in this map, which really says a lot about Israeli views, propaganda and perceptions of “consensus” and what constitutes being “apolitical”.
BTW Medad’s feigned innocence regarding the historical accuracy of the names Judea and Samaria is irrelevant, because the terms provide a level of information inconsistent with the rest of the map, which does not show the names of regions (such as Galilee or Negev), but only broader, political designations. He of course knows very well that the artificial and clumsy name “Judea and Samaria” was introduced for entirely political reasons, in order to avoid using the term “West Bank”.
I just noticed that there is another regional designation: “Sinai”. This could be an attempt to distinguish it from Egypt – or it could just be a way of showing the birthrighters where a region they may have heard of is, in a generally inconsistent map.
Thanks. Even a back-handed compliment is better than most of the back-assed dribble here.
So ymedad,
When are you going to lighten up this blog with your pearls of wisdom?
“Lighten”? Even I would have difficulty. But let’s liven up things:
link to myrightword.blogspot.com
I had a look at your blog.
Sadly, you haven’t failed to dissapoint. In the 1920′s everyone in the Palestine was regarded as Palestinian, so the carnard that there were no Palestinians is a sad and patheic effort on your part.
That aside, the majority fo the land was owned by Palestinians, with only 7% belonging to Jews.
You’ll have to do better I’m afraid.
BTW Yisrael , I had a look at your interview on Youtube and with all due respects, you did come off shall we say, looking rather deluded.
For example,
1. Menachem Begin, Yitzek Shamir (2 terrorists that were elected to office) and Moshe Dayan, all admitted that Israel started the 1967 war.
2. Judea and Samaria have never neen internationally recognized geographic terms.
3. If there wa any truth to your assertion, that the entire civilized world a century ago recognized the Jewish birthright to Palestine, then the 1947 partition woudl hnever have been created and and Israli founders would never have accepted it.
4. There was never a Jewish state before 1948. There is no archeological record of such an entity and no, a few shards of pottery are not evidence of the existence of an entire civilization.
You get the idea…
Medad, if it was me you were thanking, there is no “you’re welcome.” I “complimented” your performance in the interview, but the same way I might compliment Hitler’s oratory skills, or Dillinger’s bank-robbing skills, or an art forger’s painting skills. I think you are a racist criminal, and people like you are responsible for inflicting and perpetuating misery on masses of people. I will apologize for one thing: I’m sorry I wrote my comment in such a way that you found reason to thank me.
DS: don’t feel so bad. Even people with inflated egos like you make mistakes.
a. not exactly. and btw, Arabs only owned about 15% of the land in the area.
try this:-
the Muslim-Christian Association’s president insisted that “Palestine or Southern Syria-an integral part of the one and indivisible Syria-must not in any case or for any pretext be detached.” The Muslim-Christian Association held a Congress in early 1919 and declared that Palestine, a “part of Arab Syria,” is permanently connected to Syria through “national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic, and geographical bonds,” and resolved that “Southern Syria or Palestine should not be separated from the independent Arab Syrian government.” Musa Kazim al-Husayni, Head of the Jerusalem Town Council (in effect, mayor) told a Zionist interlocutor in October 1919: “We demand no separation from Syria.” The slogan heard everywhere in 1918-19 was “Unity, Unity, From the Taurus [Mountains in Turkey] to Rafah [in Gaza], Unity, Unity.”
Palestinian interest in Pan-Syrian unity peaked during the early months of 1920. One speaker at the General Palestinian Congress suggested that Palestine stood in relation to Syria as Alsace-Lorraine to France. The Congress passed four resolutions. The first of them noted that “it never occurred to the peoples of Northern and Coastal Syria that Southern Syria (or Palestine) is anything but a part of Syria.” The second called for an economic boycott of the Zionists in “all three parts of Syria” (meaning French Syria, Mt. Lebanon, and the Palestine mandate). The third and fourth resolutions called for Palestine “not to be divided from Syria” and for “the independence of Syria within its natural borders.”
The crowning of Faysal as King of Syria in March 1920 elicited great enthusiasm among the Arabs of Palestine. Participants in a mass demonstration in Jerusalem carried pictures of Faysal and called for unity with Syria. Amin al-Husayni, just back from Damascus, incited the crowds with (false) news that the British government recognized Faysal as ruler of Palestine as well as Syria.
Why did Palestinians accept Southern Syria and submission to Damascus? In large part because this was their traditional identity; also because they thought they would gain from connections to Damascus. The Palestinians regarded Faysal as the only Arab leader capable of resisting the Jewish influx into Palestine; as a group of Palestinian expatriates observed, “If Syria and Palestine remain united, we will never be enslaved by the Jewish yoke.”
What “idea”? That you know next-to-nothing about history? That you can’t spell? That your sentence structure is problematic?
1. When/where? Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran, moved troops into Sinai.
2. Says who? Check out every single book of geography and come back.
3. The WZO accepted the 1922 partition already so why should those moderates have not accepted the 1947. Weizmann & Ben-Gurion said better a little than nothing.
4. Sure there was. What were the Babylonians and later Romans fighting – a Jewish sports club?
Whatever I know about history, it is based on facts, not Zionist propaganda. Confuse history with fairy tales ymedad.
1. Egypt’s closure of the Straits of Tiran affetced 5% of shipping to Israel,though if you want to argue that a blockade is an act of war, you’ve just given ample reason why Hamas should be firing rockets into Israel.
Perhas you might want to label Menachem Begin a left wing extrmists, but he according to him,
“The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with him.”‘
2. I did check out every single book of geography and come back. Still no such thing as Judea and Samaria.
3. If the WZO accepted the 1922 partition, then that puts to rest your moonba theory that the League of Nations recognized the area of Jordan to the sea as being an Israeli homeland.
You might want to get your story straight, unless you enjoy contradicting yourself.
4. Following 70 years of intensive excavations in the Palestine, archaeologists have found out:
a) The patriarchs’ acts are legendary
b) the Israelites did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, they did not conquer the land.
c) Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon, nor of the source of belief in the God of Israel.
This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom.
These facts have been known for years, but Zionists liek you are a stubborn people and don’t want to hear about it.
Sorry to burst your hermetically sealed Zinist bubble, but the sooner you face reality, the better it will be for you.
a. Arabs only owned about 51% of teh land (not 15%), though perhaps that’s what you mwant?
b. I take it your rant about the Muslim-Christian Association is your way of letting us know you had no luck finding a map of Souhern Syria.
In any case, the Muslim Christian Association was a British creation that did not speak for the Palestinians in the region.
But don”t let the facts get in the way of your little conflation.
Got anything better?
In fact the World Zionist movement’s map of the “Greater Israel” presented to Theodor Herzl included Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and a greater part of Egypt and Iraq.
link to sweetliberty.org
Which one? And in any case, neither Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq actually existed then. Even until 1921-22, “Palestine” was considered to be but Southern Syria – by the very Arabs resident in the area.
Israel didnt exit in 1921-22 either. In fact, the majority of the Jewish population in palestinew were opposed to the concept fo a Jewish state.
Please provide a map that designated Palestine as Southern Syria.
Try this book: A Guide-Book to Northern Palestine and Southern Syria.- Palestine Pocket Guide-Books. Vol. 3 by H. Pirie-Gordon
The book refers to a a Southern Syria and a Northern Palestine, but makes no mention that Palestine was Southern Syria.
You’ll have to try harder.
One comment I would make about the pamphlet in my very quick perusal is the reading list is rather antiquated. Non-fiction books about Israel to read ? Three, the autobiography of Golda Meir, a biography of Yitzhak Rabin by his granddaughter, and an autobiography of Ariel Sharon. Imagine going on a tour of the US and being told that if you want to learn more about the US you should read biographies of Eleanor Roosevelt, Jimmy Carter and George Bush. Yeah, that would be helpful.
Fiction books, likewise old. Exodus, O Jerusalem, and a Michener novel.
Was the Michener novel “The Source”? Because I can see why any hasbarist would recommend that one–every hoary cliche about the origins of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is there in Michener’s excruciatingly clumsy prose. There’s even an Uncle Tom-like Arab character* to give what is supposedly the view of a sensible Arab. I’ve never read “Exodus”, but I doubt it’s much worse than “The Source”.
* I sorta hate using that term “Uncle Tom”, because the fictional character is actually heroic, nothing like the submissive coward the term has come to mean.
Yep, it was “The Source”. I’d never heard of it, but I’ve always thought of Michener as highly overrated in his day, which was numerous decades ago.
“Uncle Tom”, because the fictional character is actually heroic,”
I know, I know, and the other one that gets me is “The Ugly American”. The “ugly American” is the frickin’ hero of the book, as opposed to the “pretty Americans” from the State Department and military. The book is not even 200 pages.
RE: Birthright map gives the West Bank to the settlers and Gaza to Egypt
MY COMMENT: Well, that’s “mighty white of them!” London School of “Economics” graduate, Elliott Abrams, would approve.
link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org
Palestinian Maps Omitting Israel
Funny how all the Israel haters on here are silent about this.
I don’t blame the Palestinians–they were ethnically cleansed from their homeland. They might settle for 22 percent of what belongs to them, but there’s no reason for them to pretend it wasn’t all their land before they were forced out.
There’s a big difference. The most obvious being that Israel is occupying Palestine, not the other way around. So when they make a map that shows them owning all that land, it is much more distressing than when the occupied do so.
‘Israel haters’! Yes! And we want to push the Jews in the sea, ‘destroy Israel’, and all that song and dance.
Israel haters, oh my gosh another ZioNazi who try to convince us with their Hasbara tools.
Barush, your propaganda shit doesnt work for the people here, we know what Jewish Virtual Library is, we know all your Hasbara tools man.
The question i would like to ask you why are you silent to the massacres committed by your country? Why are you silent when babies are massacred? Do you want me to recall you Igrun crimes toward Pals? what about Bahr el Baqar primary school destroyed in Egypt in 1970, the 46 kids massacred by pogroms like you? Why are you silent when your NazIsrael sprayed children with WP last year? Why your Jewish Library is silent about this? Whats your religion Baruch? How can any religious beliefs justify all these atrocities? Wake up!!!!!!
This is typical of the depths to which Zionist propaganda sinks, an entire internet packed full of lies that they drag out and wave around to justify Israeli crimes against humanity.
Map of Greater Israel as claimed by WZO circa 1918, right after WW1 ended:
link to palestineremembered.com
JSC, you say.
Tell the Palestinians whose entirely family was incinerated or burned alive from white phosphorus that “well my family suffered sixty years ago and someone picked on my son, so that means you have to burn.”
Your facts are wrong. Israel targeted Hamas who fired and hid behind civilians.
As long as the Arabs continue their dealth cult policy, their civilians will be killed.
This is why its urgent that JSC tell the Palestinians leaders to stop using their civilians as human fodder.
You say,
Or, you could tell the Palestinians kicked out of their lands in 1948 that well, because of something the Germans did, we’ve decided that no only will we colonize your land, we can’t coexist and you must be ethnically cleansed.
Totally false. There was a war the Arabs started to ethnic cleanse all the Jews from Israel.
The greater Syrians, otherwise known as the Palestinians were told to leave their holmes cause they would be in the way when the Arab armies annihilated the Jews. When the annihilation of the Jews happened the Greater Syrians were promised to get all the Jews holmes and spoils of war.
JSC the real ethnic cleasing happened when the Arabs forced the Jews from the Arab countries.
www.hsje.org/jews_kicked_out_of_arab_countrie.htm
There was no meaningful or ANY at all evidence found of ‘human shielding’ by Hamas.
There was by evidence that Israeli soldiers used Palestinians for human shields:
Oh and on Israeli allegations against Hamas:
I have seen the videos of Hamas and Fatah fighters grabbing children off the street to use as human shields, their use of ambulances to transport arms and terrorists, and the use of mosques, schools and hospitals as military installations.
Hamas and Fatah started the war. Hamas and Fatah have called for the genocide against Jews. They are responsible
Well, that’s certainly compelling, Baruch Rosen. I have completely changed my opinion as a result of your methodical, detailed analysis, so complete and well-documented. You are an inspiration to us all.
I urge everyone at this blog to immediately stop what you’re doing, and read what Baruch has written. Ponder his words, meditate on them, rewrite them in iambic pentameter, set them to music, hire jugglers and dancing bears to act them out. Soon you will see them as I do–PURE GOLDEN TRUTH.
And the Troll of the Day Award goes to Baruch, with an honourable mention to Julian for “the Arab world attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel”.
Baruch you are not just a liar but a coward!
‘Johnnie’ technique, that Israel is teaching to their soldiers, which means using Johnnies ( Palestinians ) as human shields, and blocking the mainstream media from reorting it. It would damage their narrative that the IDF are forces of good fighting the Hamas, forces of evil.
Here’s several reports of the IDF using ‘Johnnies’ as human shields:
One of the first cases that was reported, during Operation Defense Shield, beginning in 2002. Other actions included “Torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees”
www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/143/
In 2005, the High Court of Justice rules against thee use of humans as shields, despite IDF actions
link to btselem.org
…
IDF APPEALS High Court ruling:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm
Despite ban on this practice, IDF continued it:
www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060
Give Pals 1% of your weapons so they can defend themselves but of course you wont because you are a coward.
“‘I have seen the videos of Hamas and Fatah fighters grabbing children off the street to use as human shields”‘
I’m sure that’s what you were told Baruch…sadly, those videos have no date to show when that took place or where. None were from Gaza, becasue the IDF banned foreing journalists from entering Gaza – in vilation of their own Superme Court.
“”Hamas and Fatah started the war.”‘
False.
1. Israel started the war on November 4th, 2008 when they broke the ceasfire.
2. Fatah weer not involved in that “war
3. It was not a war but a massacre.
Now its urgent that Ronnie Kasrils, Gerald Kaufman, Shulamit Aloni, Gideon Levy, Amira Hass and Uri Averny must speak out against Palestinian Islamo Nazism.
link to israelnationalnews.com
PA Defends Right to Publicly Honor Terrorists
Hana Levi Julian
1/15/10
The Palestinian Authority government is defending its practice of honoring terrorists who murder Israelis by naming public places and events in their honor.
A city square in Ramallah was recently named after Dalal Mughrabi, the lead terrorist in a murderous attack on an Israeli bus traveling on the Coastal Road during the 1970s. Mughrabi, who was killed during the incident, led a team of several other terrorists in murdering 37 Israelis after hijacking the bus in 1978.
Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu harshly condemned the action as incitement and this week protested to the United States, pointing out the continued hate and violence promoted by the PA through such events.
“It is not only missiles and rockets that endanger security and push peace further off,” Netanyahu noted. “Words can also be dangerous. Whoever sponsors and supports naming a square in Ramallah in honor of a terrorist who murdered dozens of Israelis on the Coastal Road… encourages terror,” he said in a broadcast on IDF Radio.
According to the media watchdog Palestinian Media Watch (PMW), however, PA Minister of Culture Siham Barghouti defended the practice one day later in an interview with the PA-backed Al-Ayyam newspaper.
“It is our right to preserve and maintain [the memory] of our fighters who sacrificed their lives for our sake and for the sake of the Palestinian cause,” he told the paper. “Honoring them in this way is the least we can give them, and this is our right.”
Barghouti was supported in his claim by Salim Salama, a member of the El-Bireh City Council, who added that “naming this square after Dalal Mughrabi is the commemoration of the symbolic figures of our struggle who have given their lives during the long struggle, and it is our right to commemorate them in our culture.”
We’ll see you praying at the shrine to Baruch Goldstein.
link to timesonline.co.uk
Not to mention the fact that Israel’s cities are filled with streets, squares and monuments dedicated to and named after the “Olei Hagardom” (including those responsible for attacks against innocent civilians) and other Irgun and Lehi “heroes”. But Netanyahu said it all: “It’s very important to make the distinction between terror groups and freedom fighters, and between terror action and legitimate military action”. A keeper if there ever was one.
BTW do you think Arutz Sheva correspondent Hana Levi-Julian might be our very own “Julian”?
Always thought Julian was a guy. The crudeness/cultural insensitivity and flat-out bigotry/racism in his posts just seemed to have a chauvinist character to it.
That and the person you are referring to, seems to be a writer. They both have similar politics, I’m sure. However, Julian never says anything. He just quotes right-wing articles as gospel.
Excellent find, Cliff. I had previously noted that the “we warned them” excuse dates at least as far back as Deir Yassin in April 1948, but this traces it back even earlier. I am a little puzzled by Netanyahu’s speech. He acknowledges how silly it would be for Hamas or Hezbollah to issue such warnings and expect evacuation and blame Israelis for failing to heed those warnings. But the only distinction he seems to offer between Israeli warnings and H&H warnings is that we’re the good guys and they’re bad. In fact, as I have previously argued, Hezbollah at least did issue warnings of a sort during the 2006 War, claiming in advance that its weapons could reach a particulat city or town, including Haifa I believe. Did anyone advance the argument that Israel was at fault for failing to evacuate those cities identified by Hezbollah? How ludicrous that would have been!
One other thing. The Irgun statements express dismay over the deaths of 90+ people. What were they hoping for? Symbolic destruction of an empty building? That’s absurd. They were trying to kick the British out. How would destroying an empty building convince the Brits that they should leave? It would have only convinced them that the Jewish underground was too chickenshit to actually kill people. Obviously killing was the intent. These themes repeat themselves. This one is reminiscent of Ariel Sharon’s raid on Qibya, Jordan in 1953 when he blew up dozens of houses in the middle of the night and killed 69 innocent civilians. I don’t think there was any claim of a warning, but there was a claim that the IDF Unit believed that the houses were empty in the middle of the night, and they were truly surprised by the death toll. Fast forward to Qana Lebanon 2006, and the killing of 29 innocent civilians when an aprtment building was bombed in the middle of the night. “We had no idea people were actually sleeping inside. We are deeply saddened by the tragic loss of innocent life.” What if Hamas were to say, at the height of the shelling on Sderot, “We thought the Israelis abandoned the town. All we wanted to do was inflict damage on empty buildings to prove our point.” The point is that Israel regularly issues such outrageous excuses and rationales because important people — their own citizens and perhaps more importantly Americans of influence and power — either believe them or pretend to.
“The point is that Israel regularly issues such outrageous excuses and rationales because important people — their own citizens and perhaps more importantly Americans of influence and power — either believe them or pretend to.”
It’s very effective–the key is that the people you want on your side have to be predisposed to believe such nonsense and then you can offer up the most ludicrous rationalizations and they’ll lap it up. It’s not just the Israelis, of course–probably every major human rights violator does it.
I know people personally who eagerly believe the propaganda.. And of course we’ve got a liberal Zionist right here who swallows at least part of it and what he doesn’t swallow he “suspends judgment” about. All an Israeli has to do is offer some sort of excuse and it means you can’t condemn his actions.
“‘PA Defends Right to Publicly Honor Terrorists”‘
Israel voted 2 terrorist leasder to the office of Prime Minister.
Israel celebrated the 60th annovefrsary of the bombing of teh King David Hotel, a terrorist attack.
Israel is founded on terrorism by terrorists, and honors terrorism.
What Olmert proved, the Palestinians refused to end the conflict as long as it meant that they would have to accept the legitimacy of Israel as a sovereign, permanent country and neighbor. Only when the Palestinians extremist/rejectionist/supremacist attitude changes will peace really be possible.
The Palestinians are being occupied and colonized.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine began before the declaration of Israeli Statehood.
Zionists do not simply ask for acceptance of Israeli as a ‘fact’ – they accept the ‘right’ of Israel to exist.
Israel is a State. A State that was founded only through the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Palestinian Arabs.
It was only through the ethnic cleansing of Historic Palestine, that a Jewish State could be created.
Palestinians have been patient all these years while Israel has been massacring them. All these years, while they have been persecuted and treated like animals.
All throughout this conflict Zionists have been ruthless and cruel in their conquest of Palestinian land.
It’s only when justice is done and the criminal Zionist State is held accountable for it’s lies and atrocities, that peace can be possible.
What should Palestine accpet legitimacy of Baruch? Israel has no borders, therefore it is not a state.
Shingo, you are half-right. Israel had no permanent borders because the Arab states refused to sign a peace treaty. There were only armistic lines. But with the Egypt and Jordan peace treaties we do have internationally recognized border on the east and south and semi-recognized on the north when the UN told off the Hezbollah Sheb’a Farms claim. We’re getting there. Patience. And we are a state and even a UN member. Please, don’t cry.
ymedad when did Israel ever recognize its internationally recognized (the so called green line ) borders? Why Arabs offered Israel peace initiative in 2002 if they are not interested in peace?
Yes ymedad you are the only state among the UN member that never respected the UN resolutions.
“‘Shingo, you are half-right. Israel had no permanent borders because the Arab states refused to sign a peace treaty. “‘
You are less than half right ymedad. The armistic lines are internatinally recognized as borders by the UN. The only internationally recognized border to the east is the Jordanian border. It is not recognized as an Israelil/Jordanian border.
Wer’re not crying ymedad. As you were informed in your interview, you parasited in the occupied territories are becomming too much fo a liability for Israel and will be dealt with sooner or later.
Palestinian Authority Muslims are taught murdering Jews is the highest goal in life and attains paradise: link to pmw.org.il
How long can Citizen, Potsherd, VR, Cliff and Donald be silent on these Palestinian racists?
One characteristic of a racist is promulgating lies to smear the Other.
Here we have a racist hatemonger spreading lies to incite hate.
And he, BR, the racist hatemonger draws his support from an Israeli NGO dedicated to telling the world
how the nasty Pals teach their kids blind hate.
Yes, what we need is the messages fo love Israeli children are taught:
link to images.google.com.au
The Palestinians have DEMONSTRATED they do not want peace.
The goal of Fatah (in their own words) is very clear on their website:
link to e-fateh.org
Article (12) – total liberation of Palestine and the liquidation of the Zionist state economically and politically, militarily and culturally.
Article (13) – the establishment of independent democratic Palestinian state with full sovereignty over all Palestinian territories [no two state solution anywhere in the goals of Fatah]
ALL Islamic nations only use Israel as a foil to divert attention to the corrupt rule. If Israel wanted Mogadishu as it Capitol suddenly there would be uproar throughout the Islamic world because Muhammad’s horse slept there.
‘All Islamic nations’ is a typical meme amongst racist, bigoted and hateful Zionists like Baruch.
Fatah and the PA are puppets of the Israeli and American leadership.
And once again, anything the Palestinians might say or do should be judged universally but put in the context of the relationship between the parties involved.
The Palestinians were the majority. Jews were not. The partition was an injustice. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine began before the declaration of Israeli Statehood. The Zionists planned out the ethnic cleansing and immediately refused the right of return for refugees. They continued their massacres of innocent Palestinians after the 48′ War. The theft of Palestine continues on to this very day.
It is easy to counter your bullshit by simply finding similar things said by Zionists.
Translation: Any meaningful Palestinian State will not be tolerated. Only when Zionists and Western imperialists subjugate the Palestinian people and maintain indirect and all relevant control over Palestinian governance will there be a ‘peace’ [second-class citizen-ship for Israeli Arabs, impunity for Jewish extremists inside and outside Israel who will target Palestinians, etc.].
Crazy rant from a Chabad Rabbi – gee, in light of the 2008 Gaza massacre, I wonder if this stuff is already happening?
Baruch, I know how you love to play the victim, but it’s Israel that’s in Palestine, and not the other way around.
Likud Charter:
link to knesset.gov.il
Oh and Yahoo said:
link to edition.cnn.com
Translation: Subjugation with benefits.
“‘ALL Islamic nations only use Israel as a foil to divert attention to the corrupt rule”‘
So does Israel. How many Isaeli PM’s have been invesigated for corruption?
If you read the Likud Charter, not that it is necessary, it is clear that Israel is not a democracy as advertised, but a theocracy, ie. a government whose legitimacy is based on religious principles.
@Baruch Rosen:
PA Defends Right to Publicly Honor Terrorists
Israel publicly honors Jewish terrorists who blew up marketplaces, trains and cafés with the sole aim of murdering and maiming civilian men, women, toddlers and elderly citizens. See here and here for the evidence.
Another thing about Baruch Rosen, who seems to have the time to lecture us but not reply to our responses. I did a very quick and incomplete (damn my day job!) perusal of the websites he links. The Jewish Virtual Library shows a map that does not distinguish between Green Line Israel and the territories, but seems to be a topographical map showing physical features of the land, the kind of map that typically has no political boundaries. Also, does the JVL have an expose of Israeli maps that fail to distinguish between Israel and the territories? I doubt it.
Even worse, Rosen cites to the pmw website maintained by the dishonest Itamar Marcus. What is truly outrageous about it is that Marcus strongly implies that the Palestinians train their youngsters to be suicide bombers and say that they died for Allah. But the website does not actually say that these kids died as suicide bombers, because they didn’t. I did not do an exhaustive review, but found that some, and perhaps all, were shot to death by the IDF at demos, and those left behind tried to console themselves by calling these victims martyrs who died for Allah. They were victims of the IDF policy of shooting “adults” who appeared to be 12 years old or older. For people like Marcus and Rosen to spin this atrocity in Israel’s favor is disgusting.
You guys are some of the best Zionism de-bunkers I’ve ever seen.
i agree with Mooser. if i was Abbas i would hire you all guys in order to rebuild Palestine and stop the cancer (the Zionism i mean).
Excellent youtube for you guys:
link to youtube.com
One of the criticisms that we had on this video is that the sources of quotes were not disclosed. Of course the Israelis and the supporters claim that they were taken out of context. Here is the list of quotes used in the video, their sources and the context:
1. “There is a country which happens to be called Palestine. A country without people”
Chaim Weismann, 1914
In Context:
“In its initial stage, Zionism was conceived by its pioneers as a movement wholly depending on mechanical factors: there is a country which happens to be called Palestine, a country without people, and, on the other hand, there exists the Jewish people, and it has no country.
Source: Nur Masalha, Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 6
2. “… we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it”
Moshe Sharett, 1914
In Context:
“We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it, that governs it by the virtue of its language and savage culture …..”
Source: Benny Morris, Righteous Victims, p. 91
3. “we must expel all Arabs and take their places”
David Ben-Gurion, commenting on the proposed Peel Commission Partition plan in 1937
In Context:
“We must expel Arabs and take their places …. and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal.”
Source: Nur Masalha, Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 66
4. “I don’t see anything immoral in it”
David Ben-Gurion, 1937
In Context:
“With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement] …. I support compulsory transfer. I don’t see anything immoral in it.”
Source: Benny Morris, Righteous Victims, p. 144
5. “There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population”
Moshe Dayan, 1969
In Context:
“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.” Source: Address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969
6. “Everyone has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours”
Ariel Sharon, 1998
In Context:
“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours… Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
Source: Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
7. “If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms Israel…” …”This is natural, we have taken their country”
David Ben-Gurion, 1973
In Context:
“I don’t understand your optimism.,” Ben-Gurion declared. “Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them?
Source: Nahum Goldman, The Jewish Paradox, p. 99
8. “There is no more Palestine. Finished.”
Moshe Dayan
In Context:
“There is no more Palestine. Finished . . .” [does it really need a context?]
Source: Avi Shlaim, Iron Wall, p.316
9. “No one has the right to put the Jewish people and the state of Israel on trial”
Ariel Sharon, 2001
In Context:
“Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.”
Source: Quoted in BBC News Online, 25 March, 2001
Thanks for the quotes. I’ve heard of most of them before, but it is nice to have them in one place for easy electronic recall. I did not check myself, but I doubt the accuracy of the Sharett quote date. He would have been awfully young in 1914 and I don’t think he was at all prominent then. He himself is somewhat of a treasure trove. Unlike his contemporaries, he was often plagued with doubt and scruples, and kept a diary that chronicles them. I’ve only read select quotes from the diary and should read the whole thing some day, but I’ve never seen it. Btw, Anna Baltzer’s book has an excellent collection of similar quotes.
I just checked my copy of Righteous Victims, and if the 1914 date is wrong it is Morris who made the mistake. However, in the context in which Morris mentions it, the growing hostility towards Zionism in Palestine in the wake of the Balfour Declaration, the date seems accurate. Here’s a fuller quote from Morris. {Note: In the prior paragraph Morris quoted Ben-Gurion in a 1919 Yishuv meeting. Shertok later changed his name to Moshe Sharrett.)
Shertok, Ben-Gurion’s cheif aide in the years prior to statehood and Israel’s first foreign minister, five years earlier had written in a similar vein>
“We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from a people inhabiting it, that governs it by virtue of its language and savage culture… Recently, there has been appearing in our newspapers the clarification about “the mutual misunderstanding” between us and the Arabs, about “common interests:[and] about “the possibility of unity and peace between the two fraternal peoples.”…[But] we must not allow ourselves to be deluded by such illusive hopes…for if we cease to look upon our land, the Land of Israel , as ours alone and we allow a partner into our estate-all content and meaning will be lost to our enterprise.”
(All ellipses, etc, are from Morris.)
I think that the extended quote, in context, makes it even more damning.
Yes it is perhaps more damning, and maybe the mistake was mine. Shertok was 20 in 1914, and quite possibly did write this at the time, although I don’t think anyone will ever quote something I wrote at that age.
To be honest, I thought you were correct when you questioned the date, and only looked up Morris to look the correct date and relate it here. I too was surprised to see such an early quote from Shertok.
It seems like Shertok (Sharrett) became more questioning of the whole “enterprise” in his older years, although unfortunately not enough to be anything concrete about it other than to put his doubts on paper.
C*p, I SO need an edit feature. Meant to say “not enough to DO anything concrete”…, of course. (And “look up” instead of “look”)
i will interested what the Zionists say about these quotes? do they deny them? Why the world is just ignoring all these evidences that Zionism is purely a colonial enterprise?
link to youtube.com
thanks, cliff; inspiring video clip. in return, here’s a short clip making a clear point about the lead up to the Gaza turkey shoot Dick Witty has tried to muddy at least ten times over the last year on this blog–make sure you hear the guy interviewed at the end of it:
link to youtube.com
aparisian, on the day that Israel declared its independence, the Arab League Secretary, General Azzam Pasha declared “jihad”, a holy war. He said, “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades”.(1) The Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini stated, “I declare a holy war, my Moslem brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!”
aparisian, explain these comments?
link to avideditor.wordpress.com
“On March 31, 1977 the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. His statements were also later published in the Boston Herald and you’ll find them at various Internet sites as well. Here’s what he said:
‘The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.
‘For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”
aparisian, more comments for you to explain?
link to israelmatzav.blogspot.com
Azmi Bishara: There’s no such thing as ‘Palestine’
I wonder how many of you remember Azmi Bishara, the former Knesset member who walked into the Israeli embassy in Cairo in April 2007 and resigned from the Knesset after he got word that he was about to be indicted for treason for helping Hezbullah aim rockets during the 2006 Second Lebanon War. Bishara has not come back to Israel since.
Here’s an interview with Bishara (in Hebrew) from Israel’s Channel 2 television that took place approximately ten years ago. A fuller translation than what you are about to see will follow the interview.
And here’s a more complete translation than what you saw on the screen:
In an Interview with Yaron London (Israel’s Channel 2, recorded about a decade ago), Bashara said:
“I don’t think there is a Palestinian nation. I think there is an Arab nation, I think that this (the term “Palestinian nation”) is a colonial invention. Palestine, up to the end of the 19th century was southern Syria.
Yes folks, I keep telling you, there’s no such thing as ‘Palestine’ or a ‘Palestinian.’ Even the Arabs themselves occasionally acknowledge that truth when their guard is down. Here’s another example.
In an interview given by Zuhair Mohsen to the Dutch newspaper Trouw in March 1977, Mr. Mohsen explains the origin of the ‘Palestinians’:
The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
So why does everyone expect Israel to cut out half of its guts to create a real state for an imaginary people? Why does everyone expect Israel to endanger its own security to give a state to a people that does not exist?
I don’t get it, even if it were true – it doesn’t change history. Palestinians, Arabs, Klingons – doesn’t matter.
They were living there. You could not have your ‘Jewish State’ without getting rid of them. The 48′ War was fought mostly inside the Palestinian side of the Partition.
The ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Palestinian Arabs began before the declaration of Zionist Statehood.
A State is a political entity. It has no inherent and arbitrary ‘right’ to exist.
People do however. Unless you’re a racist and fascist that is – are you Rosen?
The question of Palestinian identity is much less controversial than ‘Jewish’ identity within the framework of Zionism.
For example, there is no ‘Palestinian race’. Palestinian identity is a nationalistic identity.
It has evolved over the decades and there is surely such a thing as a ‘Palestinian people’. Just as there is an ‘Israeli people’.
Both are nationalistic. However, it’s only the Jewish State which claims to be a ‘homeland for Jews’. Why? The Zionists didn’t always have their eyes set on Palestine. They had looked elsewhere. Wasn’t the Congo one of their choices? Do you have deep religious and cultural ties to the Congo, Rosen? Are the Congolese antisemitic and hell-bent on ‘Israel’s’ destruction?
Anyone w/ some sense can realize that whatever a person calls themselves, they have rights.
As another poster here has said (‘RoHa’, is his/her handle I believe) -
If self-determination is defined by territory. Then Jews have no right to self-determination.
That requires territory. And Palestine was home to a majority Arab population with a minority Jewish population. Furthermore, Jews owned drastically less land and property.
Jews live all over the world. Does a Jew in New York have a ‘right’ to make a State on top of the United States, simply because he is a ‘Jew’ and belongs to a ‘Jewish people’?
Self-determination is defined by the territory and the people who reside there.
Most of the people in that region were Arabs. They got pushed out. Who cares what they call themselves? It’s still their land and their homes. They now identify w/ the ‘Palestinian’ nationalistic identity.
I’m sure Israeli Jews identify as Israeli Jews and not as Australian Jews.
The point is that, the thing that separates the two Jews, is the nationalistic identity. The State.
They can lose Israel, and keep their Jewishness. It’s then much more important to question what a Jew exactly is, and how that relates to Zionism.
Whereas, no one is saying Palestinians are a ‘race’ or ‘religion’.
Please review, page 18 of the Hasbara Handbook: Promoting Israel on Campus.
All that has happened is that the people who never had to justify their actions morally or logically (only with force) – are now reacting to a people who lost everything but have always had truth and justice on their side.
Why does Zionism require megaphone? Why does it require so much organized PR efforts and ‘hasbara’?
Because it’s bullshit. You’re a European colonist. Today you’re Jewish. Yesterday, you were Puritan. Tomorrow, you could be a Scientologist for all we care. The only commonality is that you destroyed indigenous society whose land you coveted.
You’re nothing but a common criminal. A thief.
As posted on the site above.
Its not looking good for Left wing Jews.
If the Palestinians wanted a state, they could have it today. They have repeatedly rejected an end to the conflict with Israel if the price is acceptance of Israel’s permanence. For them, its a struggle that has only a winner and a loser and as long as they are on the losing side, they will not agree to any peace terms with Israel, not even as generous as the offer presented to them by Ehud K. Olmert. There is indeed no such thing as Palestine – and that is what the rest of the world and sadly, a number of deluded Israeli Jews refuse to get.
For the Palestinians, the sine qua non as for the last 60 years remains the destruction of Israel.
Compelling and rich.