One of the most important questions raised by the Goldstone Report is whether there was an intentional Israeli objective to destroy Gaza’s civilian infrastructure. As B’Tselem’s Executive Director Jessica Montell explained here in Mondoweiss:
We all know the extent of the destruction in Gaza: homes, mosques, schools, as well as infrastructure like chicken coops, flour mill, sewage treatment. B’Tselem has documented this – as well as the now most urgent problem that the siege still prevents rebuilding all that was destroyed. The more complicated issue is whether this destruction was systematic – i.e. willful, premeditated destruction of civilian targets with no military justification. Building this case depends not only on the extent of the damage and suffering, but on the motivations and objectives of the Israeli military.
Another Israeli organization has recently issued a report that aims to help with that very issue. The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel’s new report "No Second Thoughts: Changes in the IDF’s Combat Doctrine In Light Of ‘Operation Cast Lead’" covers similar ground to a segment of the Goldstone Report I posted recently, and demonstrates that Israeli military leadership spoke very openly about conducting a campaign of collective punishment in Gaza.
From the report’s summary:
The report, "No Second Thoughts: Changes in the IDF’s Combat Doctrine In Light Of ‘Operation Cast Lead’", demonstrates Israel’s application of a new combat doctrine during the hostilities in Gaza, which is based on two principles:
1. "Zero Casualties": The complete prioritization of avoiding IDF casualties while disregarding the increased risk to Palestinian civilians. The implementation of this policy is evident in the massive use of fire power, the use of white phosphorous weapons in densely populated areas, and in firing at Palestinians in the streets, with no discrimination between combatants and civilians, this even after the IDF would order the evacuation of residents from civilian homes.
2. "Dahiyah Doctrine": named after the residential Dahiyah district in Beirut, where the Hezbollah enjoyed support and also had its headquarters. The district was massively bombed by the IDF during the Second Lebanon War. The doctrine promotes targeting civilian infrastructure in order to cause widespread destruction and suffering among the civilian population so as to foment popular opposition to Israel’s opponents (namely Hamas and Hezbollah).
As a result of the implementation of these principles, the fighting in the Gaza Strip caused intentional and large-scale damage to civilian infrastructure as well as the killing of hundreds of non-combatant civilians (despite the absence of an official policy to intentionally kill civilians).
Read the full report after the jump:
The disgusting thing is how Israel is clearly determined to do whatever it can, by whatever means, to quash the accusations, demonize the accusers of the IDF’s crimes. The idea of seeking out the truth never enters their minds. For Israel, the truth is always the enemy.
This is the sorrowful part of conflicts in middle east reality. In the act of violently fighting in a combat zone, when one is in the business of killing each other, in anyone of the protagonist’s mind is only how to destroy the enemy and “never mind what the neighbors think…we will deal with that anyway after we survive…” What a tragedy….
Spoken like a true Hasbara troll. Yes, the Middle East is the problem with the Middle East.
Which was Obama’s initial response to Laila Abdelaziz’s question in Tampa a few days ago. He embellished the nonsense with “and it’s been so for centuries.”
I’m guessing Rahmbo fed him that little gem.
To describe Gaza as a combat zone is to suggest cattle have a fighting chance when they enter a slaugterhouse.
Here’s a good thumbnail sketch of the unbalanced real context which zamaaz ignores; and it’s only grown worse since the sketch was written:
link to blogs.myspace.com
The use of violence against civilians to teach them a lesson is inherently objectionable. The use of means of violence that hurt civilians in order to minimize casualties to one’s own troops is much more understandable.
All the evidence we have seen so far, the intentional targeting of civilians, especially civilians carrying white flags, the 200 ft wide star of David on one of the farms, running over cemeteries with tanks to the point where Palestinians had to not only bury their dead from Israeli shelling, but those who died weeks and months or even years earlier.
There was also the targeting of medics and ambulances and in one incident that will probably remained etched in my memory forever, the ICRC reported that one medical team found 12 bodies in a shelled house, and alongside them four very young children, too weak to stand, waiting by their dead mothers The medical team was only allowed access to the house 4 days after the Red Cross filed a request with the Israeli army to allow the medical team to drive to the house and rescue the survivors.
There was a calculated, intentional and massive targeting of anything Palestinian, including property and livestock. Why shoot and kill dozens of cows out on farm land? What’s the “security” justification there? There is none. And you know it.
So, let’s not pretend this wasn’t intentional. It was intentional and it was executed on a barbaric scale.
Funny, that sounded like a glowing endorsement of suicide bombers, doesn’t it?
If the ultimate goal of the action is destroying a military target and if one uses means that hurt civilians because means that would not hurt civilians would endanger one’s own troops then it seems understandable. Suicide bombing has as its goal civilians (as a rule) rather than a military target which is entirely different.
Wondering Jew, I basically agree concerning targeting civilians …
But your argument rests firmly on the fact that Israel has an army, while the Palestinians never had one. The problem I have is that Israel controls the remains of the Palestinians territory, doesn’t allow them their own executive structure, is very heavily involved in their suppression. Plus Israel is a democracy, which suggests that the majority of the population supports this suppression. Elected the successive legislations that supported the further theft of land, and guards whoever takes what he wants “e.g. the outpost youth” with armed forces against an unarmed population. In this context your comparison: Israel – legitimate military forces, Palestinians – terrorists who attack civilians, does not quite work.
Look at how much time passed from the beginning of the occupation after 1967 and the War of Stones in 1987.
Oh? And if, say, a pizzeria contains even one soldier, can’t your argument be used to justify it as a military target? Isn’t that the logic used by the IDF during Operation Cast Lead (among other atrocities)? And aren’t most Israeli adults soldiers by dint of compulsory service? So if mosques and hospitals in Gaza are military targets, aren’t pizzerias and night clubs in Israel military targets by your logic as well?
I’m only applying what you said to both sides of the sword, incidentally. I believe what you said is bullshit for exactly the reason that I can make this argument with your words.
WJ, you’re basically invoking the Hiroshima Nagasaki Doctrine. The murderous Truman back then justified annihilating two entire cities and killing more than 250,000 civilians as a military necessity to spare the lives of US troops. And the propaganda back then was the same as it is now, the American public was lied to and told that the US is going to target two major Japanese military bases in those two cities.
Don’t assume for one second, that Israeli strategists haven’t studied history and learned how to fine tune their propaganda and murderous actions. Do you think Avigdor Lieberman’s comment about dripping a nuclear bomb on Gaza was a coincidence, an off the cuff comment? Someone in those closed door strategy meetings must have brought it up. It’s no coincidence.
And if your Hiroshima Doctrine is what you believe to be the ideal solution, then have at it, go wipe Gaza off the face of the planet and kill 1.5 million civilians.
But, don’t expect a scintilla of sympathy afterward from the world and especially from neighboring states. If Israel is destroyed in the process, it will all be your fault and the fault of those 94% of Israelis who support such atrocities.
Absolutely Chaos4700, the “reasoning” is patently laughable. The motive for such brutal and murderous treatment of civilians is not the question, it is the fact of the brutality and murderous treatment of the civilians. The motives do not matter to the dead and maimed, because they are still dead and maimed.
It is like saying – “in order to minimize the casualties to our troops, we will totally bomb an entire neighborhood, because we know that somewhere in there is the enemy.” Or like a soldier who has children standing in the way of fire against an enemy target – just shoot the kids, they are only in the way anyhow.
However, what it really reveals is the Israeli view that the Palestinians are not human beings, and they can be shot down like dogs (and even some animal rights activists would object to that). What it tells you is that a people who hold such views of other human beings do not deserve to be the fourth most powerful armed forces on the planet, and those who supply them are culpable. They not only deserve to be hit with every legal charge, they need to be disarmed and their power of occupation needs to be disbanded post swift.
At a forum convened by Richard Silverstein in Seattle in December 2009, Prof. Ian Lustick link to edmaysproductions.net explained that Jabotinsky’s Iron Wall doctrine, articulated by Jabotinsky in 1923, had as its purpose, its philosophical foundation, to pedagogically use overwhelming military force to, in Lustick’s words, “pound into the heads of the Arabs” that Jewish Israelis cannot be defeated; that the Arabs must submit to the loss of their land and sovereignty.
Military force as pedagogy.
pedagogy: the principles and methods of instruction.
The philosophical foundation upon which zionist Israel is constructed — zionist Israel’s “Federalist Papers” — is “the use of violence against civilians to teach them a lesson…” and is “inherently evil.”
Zionist Israel is posited on a foundation that is inherently evil.
So that’s the Jewish light to the animal Goy world….nice to know.
It is like saying – “in order to minimize the casualties to our troops, we will totally bomb an entire neighborhood, because we know that somewhere in there is the enemy.” That is exactly what happened to Dahiyah, as can be seen from before and after photographs
link to i160.photobucket.com
link to blogreut.files.wordpress.com
Except that in the case of Dahiyah, there were no Israeli troops anywhere in the vicinity. It was carpet bombing for the sake of it. Somewhere in there may have been the enemy.
It was hitting on the families of the Hezbollah militia while the men were entrenched near the Litani.
Tuyzentfloot: the IAF [was hitting] on the families of the Hezbollah militia while the men were entrenched near the Litani. This is intentional targetting of innocents, no doubt about it
The bombing was hitting fatherless families. Good stuff that.
And the Israelis never even got near the Litani river that time (2006). They may try harder next time.
According to your argument then the families of all members of the IDF are legitimate targets. Given that the IDF is a conscript army and most Israelis serve in it at some time and are then in the reserves for a long time afterwards that means that the majority of Israeli civilians are legitimate targets according to your argument.
History suggests that Israel won’t be able to maintain a qualitative and quantitative military advantage over their neighbours for ever and once they lose it, they will reap the rewards for past actions.
Yes, your logic is impeccable. The sole question as a practical matter is how long will the USA masses (98% Gentile) enable Israeli uber alles at their own expense in terms of life and treasure? Forever apparently.
“Unfortunately, I think that selective use of killing civilians has been very much on the agenda for fighting terror,” said Yaron Ezrahi, a political scientist at Hebrew University who has been lecturing at defense colleges. “The army believes that a weak spot of Israeli deterrence is its strong commitment not to kill civilians, and there has grown the sense that it might have to temporarily overcome that weakness in order to restore deterrence.”
link to nytimes.com
I met an Israeli ex-soldier named Moshe on an overnight boat here, who told me of his experience as a sniper in Hebron. A small boy, with a carrier bag, crossed an open square during a temporary curfew. The sniper was ordered to shoot, and did, killing the boy with a single shot. It turned out that the bag was filled with oranges being taken to the boy’s grandmother.
The next day Moshe was deliberately assigned sniper duty at the boy’s funeral, “to toughen him up“. He spent an hour viewing the scene with his rifle ‘scope. No-one needed to be shot, but he was heavily affected by seeing the grieving mother at close range.
Moshe had also been in a special explosives squad in Tyre in Lebanon and had lost two fingers as the result of a botched bomb disposal activity. His squad set an IED outside the home of a known Hizbollah activist. When a car drew up, Moshe identified the brother of the activist, not the wanted man himself, with his family. He was ordered to “Kill them anyway. The only good Arabs are dead Arabs“, which he did.
—————————————-
Captain R. claimed in court, “I didn’t think of anything except of my duty to push back the terrorists, push back the treat,/b>[sic], and make sure that the contact line is not broken, as it had happened in Morag.” Every word is carved in stone. Except there were no terrorists, no threat, and no contact line that was about to be broken. We are left with a dead 13 year old girl, and an acquitted Captain.
link to breakingthesilence.org.il
Unfortunately, a problem with this report is that we are given no identity for the girl, or where she was killed, and no information about the context of the killing of the girl. Presumably the author of the report could go to jail if he revealed such secrets.
Yes, the ‘most moral army in the world’ does knowingly kill civilians indiscriminately, and often. The Israeli Air Force kills even more civilians, even more indiscriminately
The identity of the girl is well known. She was Imam al-Hams, age 13, on her way to school in Gaza in 2004 when she was fired on by Israeli troops. “Captain R” then shot her in the head at point-blank range to “confirm the kill.”
link to haaretz.com
The Israeli Air Force is an integral part of the IDF. It has indiscriminately killed more Gazans (and Lebanese) than anyone else.
Just put yourself in the place of any of the gung-ho fighter/bomber pilots, the Apache helicopter pilots, and the drone pilots in front of computer screens.
They are given computerised target coordinates, so they have no idea at all whom they are hitting (except for the sedentary drone pilots, who can see in real time, what they are doing).
The rest get in, do their stuff, and get out, as quickly as possible
The Gazans have absolutely no air defences
It’s not surprising that no IAF members have joined ‘Breaking the Silence’ They had no idea that they were doing anything wrong.
The Taliban in Afghanistan has just honored one of their own who shot down a US drone…
This really can’t be repeated enough. It’s one thing if Israel was using its vaunted air force against a nation with an actual military capacity, even if it is inferior and not bolstered by American foreign aid. Instead Israel uses the best air superiority that American taxpayer money can buy to attack mosques, hospitals and schools.
Israel’s concerns for the safety of its troups, its youth, is laudable.
The application of the Dahiya doctrine is a desparate approach, borne of frustration in dealing with Hamas and other revolutionary factions. Proportional preventative approaches have not worked, as Hamas and other factions have sought to stick to it to the Israelis, Israeli civilians. The only setting in which rocket-fire on civilians stopped, was where the threat of extensive harms existed.
It is good that Hamas has recently changed its mode of operation to protection of Gazan civilians (by restraint of rocket-fire, and even the restraint of size of demonstrations illustrated by the limitations placed on the size of the Gaza march). Last December, it instead adopted the militia approach, the terror approach, and opened a state of war, then hid its own people, so that the ONLY individuals exposed to violence were civilians.
Protecting their militiamen also makes sense, hiding instead of fighting, and instead illustrates the horribly poor judgement of the youthful and revolutionary fighters.
Both Israel and Hamas/Gaza ignore the fundamental reality that both communities are there to stay, that the fantasy of “drive them out” is a fantasy.
And, that the willing dog-fights for internal power within Palestine pale compared to the need to establish a viable Palestine at all. Instead of making peace genuinely, they just keep the war going on and on and on.
A third party is needed in Gaza, an alternative. Either that or acceptance of Fatah’s leadership.
We’ve swapped some of the words in Witty’s post with some other analogous words. Let’s see if we can tell the difference!
Who keeps the war between Palestinian factions going on and on and on? Oh that’s right. Our State Department does.
link to vanityfair.com
If anyone else wants to eviscerate Witty’s justification of the unjustifiable, please step in. I need to take a break and go vomit now after reading his post. Thanks.
Spoken like a true “revolutionary”.
“our state department does”.
“He made me do it”.
I take it you only read the headline fo the link I posted, considering you don’t seem to know what the article actually contains.
So they don’t make business majors do their homework? And they call Liberal Arts “soft” academics. If your academics were any softer, Witty, it would blow away in a stiff breeze.
At least Richard has the career prospects of a liberal arts major.
Oh! And while we’re on the topic of “He made me do it,” how about the spoutings of your favorite bitch queen, Witty?
Bah. The last thing I need is competition. :)
Fatah lost the election, a fact that you continue to ignore. It is Fatah that should have accepted Hamas’s leadership.
Or don’t you believe in democracy? (answer: only for Jews)
“Israel’s concerns for the safety of its troups, its youth, is laudable.”
No, it is not right to force their youth to commit occupational injustices on the slow train of genocide. Secondly, the attempt to frame the wanton murder and wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians to “protecting the troops” is to be condemned, and those who support it are also to be heartily condemned – out of hand.
I don’t know who you think you are Witty, perhaps you are trying to be one lonely condemned voice in identification with Zionist atrocities, so you can pine away as part of a “persecuted people.” Those days are long past, and all you are is a participant in the blood curdling injustice of dominants. You have no underdog status, neither do the Israelis, you are bullies and brutes, mindless and senseless, and worthy of condemnation.
Witty just has not ever talked to any German in the former occupied Third Reich lands–you have to know Dick Witty never served in any Army. Witty’s just a nerd
who’s been protected his whole live by US Gentile police and Army, the very same people he would never let his own children marry if he had a vote. He is a typical type that plays the underdog when obviously he’s been the beneficiary of the contrary.
That’s his whole dispute with his childhood buddy, Phil.
“Nerd” implies the Witty is book smart. He isn’t even that. Ever see him address the content of any links that refute the crap he spews? He’s little more than a second rate propagandist with a finance degree.
RW, christian fundamentalists who blow up abortion clinics make more sense than you do. At least one can understand they believe they are saving more lives than they extinguish through their activities.
Regarding the I/P if you substitute “Palestinians” for “cattle” everything you say makes SOME sense (although you would probably still have the folks from PETA on your ass).
Let me ask you this – do you think people blow themselves up in crowded restaurants simply because of indoctrination or do you think it might be the most desperate, symbolic act imaginable from a desperate, desperate people that have NOWHERE LEFT TO TURN??
Yes, the point is that terrorist who blow themselves up indicate by doing so that
they have nothing else to offer–it is a sign of economic and military weakness in reality that they acknowledge by their sacrifice.
”The application of the Dahiya doctrine is a desparate approach, borne of frustration in dealing with Hamas and other revolutionary factions”
That should read, the application of the Dahiya doctrine is a desparate approach, borne of fear that Hamas and other revolutionary factions were adhereing very strictly to the ceasefire and that there was a risk of these groups being preceived as moderate and reasonable. This is why Tzipi Livni told the world that a long ceasefire was not in Israel’s strategic interests.
”’It is good that Hamas has recently changed its mode of operation to protection of Gazan civilians”
Recently as in July 1008 you mean? Of course, this hasn’t made one iota of difference to Israel’s conduct, who continue to bomb and shell Gaza, proving once again that moderate behavior (ie. non militant) yields no rewards.
”Both Israel and Hamas/Gaza ignore the fundamental reality that both communities are there to stay, that the fantasy of “drive them out” is a fantasy.”
Another lie. Hamas do support a 2 state solution along 1967 border. Hamas do acpe the Arab Peace Initiative, which offers to recgonize Israel as per those 1967 borders.
It is Israel alone that ignore the fundamental reality.
”A third party is needed in Gaza, an alternative. Either that or acceptance of Fatah’s leadership. ”
In other words, Gaza should not be entitled to democracy. The Palestinians have to accept a leadeship that is acceptable to Israel.
Are you a fascist by any chance Witty? Do we get to pretend that Likud doesn’t exist?
Most of this post was your usual apologetics for Israeli cruelty coupled with your desire to put all of the blame for the conflict on those dastardly Ay-rab extremists. I particularly enjoyed the part where Hamas is blamed explicitly for exposing civilians to “violence”, but no moral blame is attached to those who actually inflicted the violence. That’s a classic sign of bad faith. And there’s nothing about the siege or the occupation–it literally doesn’t occur to you that this is violence and brutal coercion inflicted on Palestinians every single day. So maybe that’s not bad faith–it’s an unconscious inability to understand the harm your side inflicts on others. No, on second thought, that’s willful bad faith.
Still, there was one decent sentence in all the moral muck–
“Both Israel and Hamas/Gaza ignore the fundamental reality that both communities are there to stay, that the fantasy of “drive them out” is a fantasy.”
That’s true.
Well, no, on third thought even that sentence has problems–it’s exaggerated. There are people on both sides who recognize that they have to live together somehow. This might be the first time I’ve ever seen you being too hard on both Hamas AND Israel.
Dershowitz: Goldstone is a traitor to the Jewish people … in today’s Ha’aretz..
link to haaretz.com
I find dershowitz to be the zionist equivalent to Goering.
Goering was a faithful believer in (economic-military) Might Makes Right. Hence he committed suicide. He was not wrong, as anyone who parsed the flabby Nuremberg
legal procedure and evidence can attest–it was a kangaroo court, especially since since Stalin’s activities were not addressed. OTH, the West did what it could via ethical principals yet saddled with Stalin as an ally. It seems, by logical deduction,
jimby, that you are right–Dershowitz is the = of Goering in his philosophy. What kills me is that the USA gives its lives and treasure for Israel uber Alles–and the American people in general do not even know it. Think about it. How many USA citizens of German ethnicity in the USA? How many of Jewish ethnicity? And, yet we have…. I guess it would not matter to those who don’t look at what their IRS taxes go for, or what their kids are fighting in the Middle East for…
Here’s another story about the “most moral army in the world” that grinds your gears.
From today’s Haaretz:
Israel closes case of U.S. activist hurt during West Bank protest
link to haaretz.com
Hey, who cares? Just another American. How could he possibly be as important as Senator Lieberman? Fuck Rachel Corrie too. You go, American goys. Idiots.
The US State Department… fucking over everybody who can’t apply for Israeli citizenship. Couldn’t be bothered to care about real American citizens when there are lucrative business deals and campaign dollars at stake. I barely feel sorry for them anymore that they have Blackwater watching their backsides.
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