Protest in Beirut against Egypt’s "Wall of Shame" on the border with Gaza.
I want to focus attention on an issue that hasn’t gotten enough press. The Mubarak regime is building a subterranean steel wall on the border with Gaza. Conservative estimates put the depth of the wall at 18 meters (nearly 60 feet). The BBC reports that American engineers designed the wall panels, which were constructed in America.
30-meter-deep holes are being bored into the ground on the Palestinian side of the wall. Egypt will pump salt water from the Mediterranean Sea into the earth to destroy the tunnels – the lifeblood of the besieged Gazan Palestinians. Soil quality will be degraded and the Coastal aquifer, Gaza’s source of potable water, may well be destroyed.
The deranged Obama-Netanyahu-Mubarak cabal seems to be possessed of a biblical rage. Dare to defy the divine edict? We will crush your men, women and children underfoot. Refuse to starve? We will raze your cities, poison your wells, and salt the earth. Their grandiosity – think of it, they’re building an 18-meter-deep steel wall(!) for 11 kilometers – beggars belief, and beggars Gazans.
Protests have erupted across the Arab world and Europe targeting Egyptian embassies and consulates; I attended one yesterday in Beirut. But the Egyptian regime isn’t responsive to popular pressure, so a group of activists here in Lebanon have begun a movement to draw attention to the Egyptian company assembling the wall – Arab Contractors. Our hope is that details emerge, other companies can be targeted. I reported on our first press conference for Electronic Intifada.
We spend so much time on the Zionists in Israel, Egypt and America and their actions today that the big picture sometimes loses focus. The most powerful state in the world – and its regional lackeys – are targeting the people in Gaza for… what? For starvation? For extermination? What is Mr. Obama’s endgame here? Once the tunnels are gone, the land degraded and the water undrinkable… well, then what? I cannot express how I feel. There is no solace in this tragedy.
Ahmed Moor is a Gaza-born Palestinian-American freelance journalist living in Beirut.
It’s interesting that none of the culpable parties will actually admit to what they are doing, or even to allow mention of it.
what confuses me is, with respect to the photo, for example: Who are the bad guys and who are the good guys? They ALL look so equally humanoid.
Countries like to have control of their borders. Since Egypt caught Hezbollah agents trying to destabilize their regime they have become very nervous about tunnels under their border.
Egypt caught Hezbollah trying to destabilize their regime? In any case, the only thing Egypt is nervous about is losing their multi billion dollar US welfare cheques.
Oh, Julian, you mean like Palestine? Or Syria? How about Lebanon?
Hence my cynicism at the Israeli and American PR aide to the Haitians.
Israel was quietly and steadily sending military aide to Central American military juntas while the US could not – in the 1980s. This was amidst the genocide of the Mayans, the death squads, all manner of crimes against humanity, etc.
States are not moral actors. And the most powerful States like Israel and the US, should not be given a breather.
It’s pure hasbara BS to compliment the Zionists for sending aid. It’s entirely political. No State, let alone Israel, is going to help people out of kindness. From one administration to the next, the strategy is on-going.
I’m glad this blog exists, because it covers this stuff without (mostly) skipping a beat (in spite of the hasbara goon).
On one of his hands, Obama’s allowing this wall; the US Corps of Engineers is helping design and erection, and US companies are helping making it; on Obama’s other hand, no sooner does Obama’s man Mitchell end his latest talk with the Israeli leader, when the Israeli leader is declaring Israel will be in cherry-picked parts of the West Bank “for eternity.”
link to haaretz.com
Seems to me that Obama’s hands are full with his end game.
I might as well repeat what I said elsewhere –
Dennis Ross will continue to lie just like he did in his book about the “peace negotiations,” and George Mitchell will continue to act like he is trying to “do something.” It is all a big joke in Washington, and they are laughing at anyone who takes their activities seriously, and anyone who does is a fool.
I don’t think that anybody is under any illusion, that Occupation of Palestine is not used as a giant laboratory for novel ways of dealing with civil disobedience and as a test ground for new weapons.
Israel’s companies boast of it openly in their marketing literature.
Jeff Harper was visionary when he called what is done to Palestinians as WAREHOUSING. They are warehousing excess and undesirable population. I don’t believe that the siege and the wall are a bluff. They are a test. What is a lowest cost of getting rid of sand niggers, trailer trash, commies, negroes, hill billies, chronically unemployed and unemployable?
Gated communities are all wrong . Why should decent, law abiding citizen be deprived of freedom to roam open spaces of their own countries?
Many years ago England was exporting its own criminal class to Australia, and Russia to Siberia. Now, when space is at premium, there is urgent need to deal in a novel way about an old problem.
I have to admit Eva, you’re posts are hitting dead center, bulls eye these days. Someone should pick you up as a prime contributor on one of these well known blogs.
Eva,
You may be interested in this document:
THE GAZA STRIP AS LABORATORY: NOTES IN THE WAKE OF DISENGAGEMENT
link to palestine-studies.org
Yeah, Eva, you sure corralled the mindset of Yale And Harvard respecting US foreign policy and the actual War business.
When will the border wall be built? When will the salt water flooding of tunnels occur?
What options does Hamas have relative to opening paths of trade?
What options exist for opening a viable port, under international management?
Witty,
Your insufferble faux sentiment is nasueating.
That options Hamas has for paths of trade is entirely up to Israel. So long as there is a blockade, that was imposed simply because Hamas won the election, there is no trade.
Why do you insist that a viable port should be under international management? aer the Palestinians underserving of self determination Witty? Should Tel Avib aiport and Israel’s water ports be also under international management?
“international management” is code for “controlled by quislings hostile to Hamas”.
What options does Hamas have relative to opening paths of trade?
None.
What options exist for opening a viable port, under international management?
What are you asking us for? Ask Netanyahu. Self-determination or not, an internationally controlled seaport or a controlled, but open border with Egypt would a) be accepted in a heartbeat by Hamas as well as everybody else in Gaza and b) is prevented by one factor, and one factor only: The Israeli government.
Are there conditions, or is it unconditional?
Are there conditions, or is it unconditional?
Conditions? By Hamas? Don’t think so. Why would there be?
Or do you mean by Israel? Thereby proving my point that it’s Israel, and Israel only, who is responsible? And also proving the point – thanks for making that clear, yonira – that the blockade is collective punishment meted out to the population of Gaza, devoid of any security rationale.
And let me see, do we have a handy term for someone who indiscriminately inflicts suffering on a civilian population in order to bully them into complying with political demands? Oh yes… I remember… we do. Talk about showing your true colors, terrorist.
1.) accept a deal to release Shalit
2.) change charter
3.) reconcile with Fatah
4.) have some sort of election
It was having a free, democratic election that got Gaza placed under seige.
Hamas wasn’t good for the Gazans then, they should elect a government that won’t be under siege.
Why not have Israel elect a government that respects democracy.
Yeah, let’s trade one Israeli soldier for thousands of Palestinians civilians jailed by Israel.
The charter was annulled.
Sock puppetFatah needs to reconcile with the real democratically elected government of Hamas.
Hamas was duly elected in the most honest election in Arab history.
Yonira,
Nothing about accept Israel as Israel?
In either case, they don’t seem to be unreasonable conditions, if they are in fact.
Are they stated by Israelis somewhere?
Accept Israel as Israel?
What does that mean Richard? That the Palestinians must be forced to accept their dispossession by White Europeans?
Israel today is a racist apartheid state that represent the dispossession of the Palestinian people.
Why should the Palestinians be forced to accept that as a pre-condition to peace?
In any case Fatah has already accepted “Israel as it is.”
While Hamas removed its call for the destruction of Israel from its new manifesto. Agreed to a peace with Israel based on the 1967 borders, and has made it clear that the status of refugee’s can be dealt with at a later date.
link to sfgate.com
What else do you need from Hamas?
Keep in mind it is Israel that is enforcing the blockade on Gaza, that Palestinian misery in the Gaza strip is primarily the fault of Israel.
Trying to shift the blame to Hamas is just you once again blaming the victim.
Richard–
Shouldn’t we impose the similar conditions on the Israelis? No weapons, at least, not while they use them to kill and oppress.
Oh, I forgot, it’s only those demonic Arabs that do bad things.
Witty, there is a large problem here and Hamas has pointed it out several times: which Israel? At present Israel has no fixied border or constitution. What in hell is “Israel”? Until Israel deigns to define itself this exercise is merely empty rhetoric.
And what does a “Jewish state” mean?
theocracy
[padding to make program happy]
Rich and yonira, you guys really do not get it. A thousand times, civilians must UNCONDITIONALLY be allowed to eat, drink water, trade and travel. Israel has no right to impose a blockade on any people, no matter how reasonable its “conditions” might be. You read this blog. You know that these policies (even apart from the direct killings) are causing people to die.
Frankly it is sick that you would put some bull**** litmus test (accept Israel as Israel!) above the freedom and physical needs of innocent people. What is the bigger affront, pages in a charter or the caging and immiseration of millions? (And of course one never justifies the other anyway.) If you believe in Israel’s right to use such extreme coercive measures to advance its agenda, then please don’t ever pretend to object to terrorism (or any other tactic for that matter, BDS especially) on principle.
witty said in a previous post that the ends justified the means, in the case of the formation of the Jewish State vis a vis the ethnic cleansing of Historic Palestine
he said he was being opportunistic and hypocritical I think
he ALSO said that had he been alive, he couldn’t imagine taking part in the ethnic cleansing actions – yet, I don’t recall him condemning said actions. again, rape and torture and mass murder are all acceptable so long as it’s ‘good for the Jews’
now, all these decades later, Witty is insisting the suffering people of Gaza ‘accept Israel as Israel’ (meaning, give up the right of return, and one-state with equal rights, freedom, etc.) or else the blockade continues
so, he is a sadist and fascist *now* and he would most likely have turned the other way back then as the more impolite fascists, proceeded to rape and pillage Palestine, terrorizing the populace into flight
after all, witty is a very polite Zionist
he won’t create terror, but he will quietly support it
and you call yourself, Liberal? you make a mockery of the term
1.) accept a deal to release Shalit
What about the 2 brothers that the IDF kidnapped the day befor Shalit was captured?
2.) change charter
Done.
3.) reconcile with Fatah
Only when Fatah stops being Israel’s lapdog.
4.) have some sort of election
Already did that. Israel punished the Palestinians for voting the wrong way.
Any other suggestions?
“Hamas wasn’t good for the Gazans then, they should elect a government that won’t be under siege.’”
In other words, vote for a leadership that Israel approves of, democracy be damned. That’s just what the Middle East needs, another puppet government.
Witty, the wall is being built now, beneath the dirt-the rest will follow. Are you blind?
Excellent suggestion, Witty; Israel will be sooo willing to cooperate with the international community in opening a “viable port….” “If Israel wants to hide anything–it will be at sea,” —
seen on Left I on the News, link to lefti.blogspot.com
date Jan 18 2010:
researching some background on Israeli submarines: ( link to nti.org
)
With walls around Gaza, walls above and below ground at Gaza’ s border with Egypt, and Israeli navy patrolling Gaza’s shoreline , perhaps in nuclear submarines, (denying Gaza access to fishing as well as Gaza’s natural gas resource), it’s hard to imagine why the international community has not labelled the US administration and Congress just so many Neville Chamberlains.
Israel has gone rogue.
There are current negotiations to run a pipeline from Turkey off the coasts of Lebanon and Syria to Israel. From there the plan is to deliver it to tankers south of the suez canal. It would save big bucks and give Israel huge powers. Maybe the submarines are part of this plan.
I think the goal of what is happening in Gaza is obvious, genocide. Of course, they will try to draw it as close as possible to their skewed definitions of genocide, but this is what is essentially going on. Actually this is what has been going on for a long time, a slow genocide, regardless of the clueless naysayers who have not followed the definitive blur in their studies (or, their mindless repeating of what others teach with an agenda).
Exactly. People should actually look up the word too and realize it has a definition.
I would like more reporters challenging Zionists and American elite crooks as to what the endgame is – just to hear it in their own words.
This is the first genocide in history where the victimized population increases.
The situation is horrible and Israel needs to lift the blockade, but calling this a genocide is callous, politically motivated, and a complete lie.
The situation is horrible and Israel needs to lift the blockade, but calling this a genocide is callous, politically motivated, and a complete lie.
You’re the kind of person who should be spat on for posting this drivel.
If you were on the receiving end of the Israeli military’s brutality and the STANDING policies which have existed within the Israeli government for DECADES, you wouldn’t be so fucking callous in diminishing from the people’s suffering.
Hey, yonira, the Pals breed like the ultra Orthodox Jews; it’s a slow genocide, yonira; you should look up the internationally recognized delineation of genocide–a sign over the prison is not needed, not even one saying Arbeit Macht Frei.
That is ok Yonira, we can just add this to you’re ever growing long list, the one where you lift the constant refrain of “What did I say or support?” You have no idea what you are talking about, genocide is not defined by the total annihilation of a people, slowly or swiftly. It is only that definitively by the rotting redefinition of what Lemkin in Axis Rule said, in order to excuse things like what is happening to the Palestinian people. Outside of the fact that we are still here, it is the intent of total destruction of a group, not necessarily the total wiping out of a people.
You can always tell an why an ignorant statement is made, because it always has a prejudice to it and bears a certain animus. The initial 5 criteria for genocide is covered when it comes to what is happening to the Palestinian people. The notion of hundreds of thousands dying while not foreign to genocide, does not relate to a need for the extermination of hundreds of thousands or a majority of a population. This is because even the definition of “genocide” is misconstrued. The definition of the word is genos (Greek) meaning “type,” and the Latin word cide, killing which someone would think means killing a group by Lemkin who coined it. When you read Lemkin’s formulation of the word genocide, nothing requires the total killing of a group or all (most) of the members.
“…destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves [even if all of the individuals in the group themselves survive]. The objective of such a plan would be the disintegration of political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of personal security, liberty, health, dignity…”
Does that describe what is happening to the Palestinians? You bet it does. In other words there have been and are many genocides that have and are taking place. This same definition above is incorporated in the second article of the UN 1948 convention, which specifies 5 different categories of action which constitute the crime when applied “with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such.”
However, we cannot complete this short post without mentioning what many have done in regard to genocide definitive, actively in both academia and in the dealing with nations and people. It is the exclusivity, the virtual holocaust hegemony of one group, which denies the moral voice and force of others. Holocaust exclusivity is just as bad (or worse) as Holocaust denial. Because this genocide is bound up with many of the past.
What motivates these people? They want something that compels the permanent maintenance of the privileged status of Israel, a Jewish state established on Arab land, as an act of atonement for the Holocaust. This myth of unique suffering which is supposed to entitle one to all of these prerogatives. That is, to set up a screen to hide the genocide of the Palestinians whose rights and property was usurped by the very creation of the state.
Why do others buy into this scenario? It means they never have to come to grips with a multitude of genocides, having a “unique and exclusive” one which has been created not by honesty with the historical facts of what is the world enterprise of genocide (especially among settler states). One could call it an unholy alliance which smothers the voice of moral authority of those suffering, and the green light to do what you like as long as you do not goose step.
You guys are funny. spouting paragraphs and paragraphs of nonsense doesn’t make your points anymore valid, its like diarrhea of the fingers. I swear its almost like ya’ll are trying to convince yourselves/ with your nonsense more than you are trying to convince someone who doesn’t share your beliefs.
more power to you i guess.
I was counting on at least one of the Zionists here on saying that, yonira.
There is a definition for the word genocide.
Genocide:
Genocidal:
Genocide is not the same as capital-H, Holocaust. For example:
link to en.wikipedia.org
The blockade, coupled with the purposeful de-development of Palestinian society/economy by Israel prior to the blockade (and by definition during the on-going blockade) is more evidence that Israel is targeting a particular “racial, political, or cultural group.”
I certainly think it will further ruin Gazan society. I don’t think Israel and the US want tens of thousands to die in this situation though. The world is watching, so they want slow pain. They do want to get very close to genocidal to break the will of the Palestinians. So they will inflict misery and hopelessness. And the Palestinians will cling on, just getting by.
The killer is that, this doesn’t even have to be a ‘Holocaust’ or ‘genocide’. Israel and the US can utilize their PR to obfuscate/lie/divert attention while carrying out this siege for years (it’s already been long enough). So the length of this cruelty is the point.
Even if it isn’t genocide, it is certainly correct to say that the siege carries characteristics of an attempt at genocide. Genocidal.
I suppose we need to factor in intentions. But if Israel and the US, want to push the Palestinians to the very edge of dehumanization, the brink of death, then I see no reason why we should not use this language.
Certainly, for Palestinian activists, it is important to relate the experience of the blockade as it affects Gaza as a whole. What it means for the future, etc.
The language of genocide may be too much for the uninformed who may associate ‘genocide’ with ‘Holocaust’. That ignorance can’t be helped. And educating them on the definition is a good start.
It’s kind of pathetic that you were the one to respond, yonira. I just knew one of you wouldn’t be able to resist. At least you didn’t mention the Holocaust.
where is the destruction of a people and their culture? its a horrible condition in Gaza, the occupation is horrible, the siege is even worse, but to call it genocide is not accurate.
If you can construe this as genocide then I am saying a one-state solution would be genocide.
No, you will even deny what is written and history Yonira, because you are full of it, and you will keep spouting like an ignoramus. However, I know what I am talking about, I have all of the evidence in front of me, all you have is you’re desire for Israel to succeed at any cost. Your beliefs are spurious, you do not have one empirical leg to stand on, I do not care how you “feel.” Hell, you do not even have the history of Judaism behind your Zionist cult, let alone world history. Yet you continue with your worthless screeds, and proverbially stick your foot in your mouth and kick.
UN Convention on Genocide 1948
Dershowitz as well as the US Congress bullied by AIPAC have attempted to have Ahmadinejad hauled before a genocide tribunal for saying things that he didn’t really say.
Israel, on the other hand, has threatened to attack and to starve the people of Iran, and Israel is, on a daily basis,
yonira, i am not saying this is genocide. my last post was very clear.
however, to reiterate, Israel is certainly targeting a specific group. they are inflicting misery on said group. the society in Gaza is in shambles. i won’t go over the details, just look that stuff up on your own. perhaps, buy sara roy’s book (which provides sources after each chapter, so it’s easy access for you to check everything she says).
i can’t say they want to exterminate the Palestinians of Gaza, simply because it isn’t necessary plus it’s just an idiotic tactic. that doesn’t make what Israel is doing any less evil.
genocidal is about the attempt (action) and the intent, which should be observable of course. i can’t observe an intent to exterminate the Palestinians of Gaza, since it would be too much – even for Israel – to then get away with.
what is happening is something that approaches genocidal levels, stopping just short. the misery inflicted can go on for a long time, and i’m sure the israelis have been studying just how effective this blockade can be versus the political risks involved.
so they may be calculating how much food they should let in over a period of time, in keeping with their ideological and strategic motives.
so, considering all this thought put in – with the full knowledge of the suffering it will cause (in addition to the previous strategy of de-developing the Palestinian economy), it’s accurate to say there is an intent to inflict severe misery. and that whatever ‘aversion’ there exists within the Israeli polity to a genocide of the Gazans is certainly not sentimental but tactical
i frame my thinking here within the context of that ‘sense of urgency’ i hope the in-the-trenches type of Palestinian activists, adopt. it’s not genocide because there is no intent to exterminate. however, it’s not far off.
the Israelis have simply learned that genocide is just a stupid strategy (short-term victory, long-term loss).
the banality of evil is alive and well still. i mean, aside from our political differences, try to think critically a bit on this. ask yourself how Israel knows the amount of food to send in and at what intervals and all that. like basically, the details. how? they thought this stuff out. so in doing so, the realization of the suffering that would be experienced by the Palestinians, must have occurred
and if the the Palestinians of Gaza, AREN’T suffering – then what is the fucking point of the blockade?
this is collective punishment and terrorism on a huge-scale
All genocides are simultaneously unique and analogous, but the Jewish Holocaust is not sui generis – uniquely unique. And all the elements of genocide are in place and functioning, and to deny this by claiming the Holocaust does one no good whatsoever –
WHAT IS GOING ON?
Even Tanya is dated now, about the idea of “bombing a whole city” being too much – so she could not even conceive of what took place during Operation Cast Lead. The escalation moves forward, and when the Palestinians in Gaza are cut off from the only source that has been able to cause them to survive, it will have reached an apex and tipping point into extermination.
Do not kid yourself, we are not going to let this happen, even if we have to stand between this killing machine and the Palestinians in Gaza – so you are going to have to kill a lot of true Jews in the process of your Zionist dream. We will personally see to it that there is a rift in the very fabric of Israel causing civil strife, and call from every corner of the globe those of common cause – Never Again.
The word is used in two different ways–the vast majority of people use it as you understand the term and that’s why it has the emotional clout it does, because people think it means the physical extermination of a people. The legal definition is broader, but if people understood the legal definition and used it that way the word would have less emotional clout.
So Israel is not guilty of genocide under the definition most people use (mass killing of most of the population), which is why I think we should stick to terms like “apartheid”, “ethnic cleansing”, “war crimes”, “collective punishment”, and so forth. If people wish to use the term they are then going to have to explain “well, no Israel isn’t engaged in the physical extermination of all the Palestinians, but what they do does fit the legal definition.” Why not just describe what they do?
Donald, the reason why the word is understood the way that it is, is because it has purposefully been obscured and definitively skewed. There are penalties attached to the process of genocide, and you want me to bypass this definition for the sake of clarity because it has been purposefully obscured? That is like saying a rapist has a sexual addition, therefore he should not be prosecuted for rape. You want to name the process piecemeal, but if you do this it is continued not only here but all over the world without consequence. That is not acceptable, nor can it be sustained – unless like Israel, and the rest of the aggressive dominants in the world want to turn the clock back to the earlier centuries. It is retrogressive, and ensures these process a continued place in the crimes against humanity.
Exactly. Once all the Gazans are dead, the gas fields on the coast will be up for grabs. And we know who will be grabbing.
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Ahmed’s post is, as always, thought provoking and profoundly disturbing.
To paraphrase the famous line from Watergate, what does Obama know about the Wall of Shame and when did he know it? As the leader of the free world, how can he passively permit an American-constructed barrier to assist in the slow-motion genocide of the people of Gaza?
Start with the lie that there is a “free world”.
He cannot allow it without ignorance, either intentional or not. His credentials
indicate that he has sold himself a bill of goods, to peddle his vacuum cleaner. It’s a Hoover. If tomorrow he had to sell Lewts, he’d forget about the selling points of the Hoover. The only real issue is, what will it take to get a grass roots revolt against
his Hoover?
Oscar, as Potsherd has already indicated, “the free world” concept is non-existent in modern history.
We always hear such euphemisms, including ones like the “civilized world” or the “western world”. But when one starts to look at the reality and the track record of the parties involved, such euphemisms are exposed for the lies they are.
France was using prisoners as guineapigs during its occupation of North Africa to test the effects of nuclear fallout. Italy, gassed thousands in African in the 1930s, well before Nazi Germany. And while such inhumane and criminal actions continue to this day and age in one form or another we continue to be bludgeoned with the lie that we are the “civilized world”.
Avi, I have always liked Gandhi’s response to the idea of civilization in the West. Once asked “what do you think of Western Civilization,” his reply was, “that would be a good idea.”
I’m worried for the Gazans. This seems to be an inching forward towards cruelty.
There must a path out of this.
I honestly believe your sincere here Richard.
So tell us, aside from putting pressure on Israel, what can we do to save this beleaguered population?
towards cruelty?
Burning children alive isn’t going far enough for you?
“‘There must a path out of this. “‘
This comming from someone who wholeheartedly supports the blockade of Gaza.
Lose the crocodile tears Witty.
Gee, Witty, I guess maybe the Gazans should be more like the Israelis you keep putting on the pedestal, huh?
Well, let’s see, the USA, Israel, and Egypt are doing all they can do without evoking total hate from the entire World to pressure all Palestinians to give up what’s left of their land. I’m worried about the Palestinians too. Otherwise, I guess, the world has learned nothing from the native Americans or the Nuremberg Trials.
Geopolitically, Hamas and Hezbollah are considered threats by Israel and the US because they are, if you will, the last bastions of nationalism in the region.
Every other state in the region has long sold out to the US and in some respect to Israeli interests. That is, after all, why countries like Jordan, Egypt and a few Gulf states are often labeled “moderate Arab states” by the US. “Moderate” is in effect servile regimes. Any state or non-state actors in the region who seek to advance their own interests or the interests of their own people, are automatically branded “extremists”, “enemies of the free and civilized world”.
And that’s the basis for US/Israeli policies toward Hamas. The reasoning is that, if Hamas go, so go the rest of the pesky groups seeking self-determination. Iran, too, is seen in this light, but to a greater extent than Hamas. Sanctions vs. Siege. The goal is the same.
that is Iran’s great sin: Iran refuses to sell out to the US and, moreso, to Israel (Iran has made several offers of rapprochement with the US but Israel has consistently thrown sand in the gears of a US-Iran relationship, even though it would mutually benefit US and Iran as well as much of the rest of the world.
Iran, Syria, Lebanon – they all refuse to give up the means to defend themselves so they must be destroyed.
yonira January 24, 2010 at 5:24 pm
1.) accept a deal to release Shalit
2.) change charter
3.) reconcile with Fatah
4.) have some sort of election
Let’s deal with these in reverse order.
4) Hamas won the US-supervised election in 2006 with 56% of the vote.
3) The PA will never reconcile with Hamas so long as they continue to arrest, imprison and torture Hamas representatives in the West Bank.
2) Fuck the ‘charter’ – Khaled Meshaal (who matters) has already publicly
announced that Hamas can accept a ‘Palestine’ based on the pre-1967 borders.
1) Umpteen deals have been proposed to ‘rescue’ Shalit. All of them have had ‘final conditions’ added by the Israelis.
Shalit is more valuable (to both sides) as a political hostage than as a human being
Richard, I have to disagree with you on #1. Shalit is more valuable to Israel as a hostage, than he is to Hamas as a hostage. The Israeli government uses him for domestic political and partisan interests while promoting him as the poster boy of Israeli/Jewish victimhood to European and American audiences.
Hamas, however, are using him as a bargaining chip for a future prisoner exchange.
I wonder how Sin Nombre (one of the commenters here) would characterize Israel’s interests and conduct in Shalit’s case given his view on Israel’s alleged humanitarian motives in Haiti.
So, in other words, the Gazans are fucked? BSD sure isn’t going to bring them any relief in the next century. If you guys are all waiting for a one-state solution then, we got problems!
The Gazans should pray for an earthquake I guess, do you think good PR would be enough for their fellow Arab countries to help them?
An earthquake would be about the only thing that could save Gaza.
Of course the earthquake wouldn’t have to be in Gaza for it to be effective.
Yeah, I can just see it now, a 7.0 quake in Israel. The Dome of the Rock crumbles, Israel is blamed for it and a third intifada ensues.
It’s a plan.
Of course, the damn wall goes, too.
God, wouldn’t that be chaos though, no matter whose ‘team’ your on. The Christian Apocalyptos would eat that shit up, so would the religious settler nuts, yikes oh yikes.
If an earthquake takes place and Gaza is leveled, or the Dome of the Rock crumbles, Israel will be blamed for their inability to respond, just like the US and Western Imperialism has made it impossible for the Haitian’s to properly respond to the disaster.
The process of genocide (which has many many times been wrapped up in colonization) has so debilitated the Palestinians, their ability to assist their own people, that Israel and its accomplices are totally responsible. If disease breaks out in Gaza, with the cutting off of medical supplies, it will totally be the fault of Israel and its accomplices for the inability of the Palestinians to respond, etc. I could go on and on.
All the religious nutcases would be freaking out about whose sin was to blame.
Or the quake could rip through Dimona, which is more likely, as closer to the rift.
If a quake rips through Dimona potsherd the first people to die will be black, because this is where Israel banishes its black Jewish population (among other ghettos).
Its bizarre you should say that.
from wiki:
“A further effort at rebuilding the Temple took place in 363 CE when Julian the Apostate ordered the restoration of the Jewish sanctuary in Jerusalem as a gesture of protest against Christianity, but this project failed. The pagan historian Ammianus Marcellinus, a contemporary witness, reported that balls of fire erupted from the foundations, burning the workmen. (The Roman History of Ammianus Marcellinus, Book 23 Chap. 1 Line 3)
The Talmud (Yoma 9b) provides theological reasons for the destruction: Why was the first Temple destroyed? Because the three cardinal sins were rampant in society: idol worship, licentiousness, and murder… And why then was the second Temple – wherein the society was involved in Torah, commandments and acts of kindness – destroyed? Because gratuitous hatred was rampant in society. This teaches that gratuitous hatred is equal in severity to the three cardinal sins: idol worship, licentiousness, and murder.[10]“
Maybe the Palestinians should pray for divine intervention. If there is an earthquake and Jerusalem disappears, what happens to Israel?
What’s bizzare is how true it is.
I suggest the Palestinians sacrifice a hectomb of flawless white bulls to Poseidon.
actually no, yonira; Jews are fucked. Phil and numerous other Jews who are diligently attempting to bring the Israeli right wing to its senses KNOWS that outrage does not make fine distinctions: if Netanyahu continues his brutish and bellicose ways, and if the US continues its jellyfish imitation, eventually, the man in the street will be forced to believe the reality that his eyes can no longer avoid: Israel is committing heinous acts with American approval and money. He’s gonna get pissed.
In the early 1930s several million Americans of all stripes — Jews, Catholics, WASPs, Negroes — all supported the Jewish people in a boycott of German goods. Everyone was on the side of the Jews. Then, zionists arranged with German nationalist party to transfer 50,000 young and healthy Jews to Jewish Palestine, in exchange for the cessation of the blockade.
With that, world opinion turned; even Jews turned against zionists. Mobs are fickle creatures.
Jews should pray for a prophet courageous enough to demand that the Israeli government remember their covenant with Yahweh and repent. Ironic that in order to cement the Jewish vote, Obama severed his relationship with his pastor, JEREMIAH Wright.
I am a Jew and I don’t think I am fucked. What the hell does anyone of the nonsense you just typed mean anyways. you guys are on a roll today.
If by Jews you mean Israelis, this is the most secure they have been for at a least a decade, they are prospering as a nation, and as a people. I am not sure what you are talking about.
Prospering as a nation?
Is that a joke?
Apartheid, brutally occupying other people, Jim Crow laws deemed acceptable?
I mean 50% of recent graduates aren’t even ready for college:
link to haaretz.com
Is that prospering?
Israel has endangered the lives of Jews everywhere by killing, torturing, and brutally occupying the indigenous people of Palestine.
Israels actions stand in stark contrast to most Jewish people including yourself Yonira.
How can you possibly say that Israel is prospering.
that’s the point I was trying to make — thanks.
Greenspan didn’t think Ayn Rand’s ideas were flawed. De Nile ain’t just a river.
“I am a Jew and I don’t think I am fucked.” No Yonira, you are a Zionist Jew that wheres a thin fig leaf (most odious), and a Zionist Jew in reality is an oxymoron to everything historic Judaism stands for – no matter how much you want to normalize it.
Rather “wears,” not wheres…a thin fig leaf…
Israel’s economy is net negative if the largess of the contributing nations is deducted.
“‘So, in other words, the Gazans are fucked?”‘
Yes, and they have been for 60 years. BDS isn’t going to hurt them anymore than they already hurting.
The last paragraph should have read:
Given Sin Nombre’s view (one of the commenters here) on Israel’s alleged humanitarian motives in Haiti, I wonder how he would characterize Israel’s interests and conduct regarding Shalit.
Ahmed MoorSorry, demonstrations in Beirut will do absolutely nothing while Lebanon has its own horrendous sanctions and restrictions against Palestinians:
Living War: Palestinian Refugees in Lebanon
link to electronicintifada.net
In 2008, Washington gave US$23 million to Egyptian government to stop the Palestinian smuggling tunnels. These tunnels are dug deep and reinforced by wooden batons. Their entrances, under large tents, can be seen dotted along tha Gazzan side of Egytian border.
The planned subterranean metal wall will be 11 kilometres long and will go 20 to 30 meters into the ground. The wall is expected to be completed in the next 18 months.
Hamas being walled-in
link to rehmat1.wordpress.com
Ahmed Moor
The end game in Gaza is submission or death as they are not allowed to leave.
With the total blockade and sealing of borders imposed by Israel, the US, and now Egypt, they are doomed unless they jettison their elected government.
When you are in that position RP, the only thing short of fighting on your feet rather than kneeling in front of an oppressor is to go after the weakest link in the chain of oppression – that is Egypt. Every Egyptian embassy all over the world should be put under siege, and every form of political and economic pressure should be brought to bear. Other than that -
NEVER
Than Israel can call it self-defense as much as they like, but they will have revealed their real “intent,” annihilation to total physical genocide. Which they are actually doing with this end game.
Egypt wants Hamas to sign the reconciliation agreement between itself and Fatah. If the tunnels are allowed to stay open there is no pressure on Hamas. If the tunnels are closed there is pressure on Hamas. I am not so sure about the motives of US and Israel because they might be better off to have no reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas.
Hamas needs to reconcile with Egypt also. Mubarak is pretty pissed off after one of his soldiers was killed by the sniper from Gaza.
link to albawaba.com
Not a word you have about the people who “disappear” thanks to Mubarak’s secret police goon squad, huh? Or I guess it’s expedient for you to overlook that for the time being, huh yonira.
So Hamas is supposed to join Mahmoud Abbas and his cronies and sign the “surrender document.” Lets face it, Israel has NEVER offered the Palestinians anything but a legalization of the current occupation.
And lets not forget that Egypt is complicit in the siege on Gaza. Essentially an act of war.
Furthermore, there would never have been a split in the first place if Israel had respected the democratic decision of the Palestinian people.
Also, I love how its “justifiable” to use coercive and violent force against the Palestinians to change their attitudes toward Israel, but if we even suggest a boycott of Israeli goods (non-violent pressure) to get Israelis to change their attitudes towards Palestinians we are told that it wont work because it will hurt the sensibilities of the Israeli people.
I love the hypocrisy.
Hamas should look out for the well being of its constituents and do whatever it takes to improve their quality of life.
You’re constant refrain of Hams’ fault is not going to work Yonira, because we all know whose fault it is in reality. Your number is evident to everyone, and your feigned care for what is good for the Palestinians sticks wholesale.
86% of Hamas’ revenue goes directly to social programs
“‘Hamas should look out for the well being of its constituents and do whatever it takes to improve their quality of life. “‘
Would looking out for the ell being of its constituents and doing whatever it took to improve their quality of life have made any difference in WWII Germany?
Avi I agree with you that Shalit is more valuable to the Israelis than to Hamas. However, the Gazans have him, and the Israelis don’t.
I wonder why the Gazans didn’t capture a few more Israeli soldiers during Cast Lead?
Well, I don’t wonder too much, because the IDF were so protective of their own brave, courageous, moral soldiers that they didn’t allow them into areas that weren’t already totally flattened by artillery, air attack, armoured tanks and bulldozers plus white phosphorous bombs, flechette and DIME munitions.
Having hyped their soldiers up with the help of Army rabbis, they restricted them to areas where they could massacre unarmed civilians, face-to-face, without penalty. The much-heralded drives into the town centres never happened.
They learned their lesson from Lebanon, 2006.
The cowardly IDF are just about fit to be prison camp guards, but no more.
On the other hand, the IAF can inflict horrendous and indiscriminate damage, with plenty of ‘collateral damage’ from safely afar.
and Israel’s navy is reportedly acquiring submarines capable of firing missiles with nuclear warheads.
yonira January 24, 2010 at 10:02 pm
Hamas needs to reconcile with Egypt also. Mubarak is pretty pissed off after one of his soldiers was killed by the sniper from Gaza.
Yonira, tell us more of this. When and where did it happen?
Mubarak is pissed off because he wants to keep US aid. (He’s under threat of losing it if he misbehaves, unlike the Israelis, who can do no wrong in US eyes). He’s an old man now, and can do no better tha groom his own son as successor.
He’s got a vast governing bureaucracy, most of the educated classes, all paid for by the US, and if he loses them, they’ll join up with the Moslem Brotherhood, of which Hamas is an offshoot.
link to articles.latimes.com
you didn’t hear about this? it was during the ‘peaceful’ viva palestina fiasco.
Yonira Several hundred protesters gathered in the city of Rafah began throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails at Egyptian security forces across the border, who responded with gunfire, witnesses said. In the midst of the chaos, a Palestinian sniper shot and killed the Egyptian guard, officials said.
I think we can take it that the officials quoted were Egyptian, can’t we? If an undisciplined mob of Egyptian border guards were firing on unarmed protestors, then we can take it as just as likely that the Guard was killed by ‘friendly fire’ just like a large proportion of the few Israeli soldiers killed in Cast Lead.
Of course Richard. No one has ever done anything wrong in Gaza. I forgot. Its ALWAYS either Egypt’s, Israel’s, or the United State’s fault. No matter what. If the facts contradict this, make sure to make up a lie like ‘friendly fire’
you people are so unbelievable.
link to youtube.com
I’ll go over this again for you Cliff:
You People: Progressive Israel hating robots who will go out of their way to make shit up to demonize Israel(read Richard’s post above, or anything written by Rehmat). “You people” time and again have proven your hatred for Israel is much more powerful than your care for the Palestinians.
Another good article about Haiti:
link to jpost.com
The sad fact is that a leopard never changes it’s spots. When Israel has been massacaring, starving and punishing civilians in it’s own back garden, and playing to the cameras in Haiti, it’s only natural to want to look beneath the facade.
Israel has made it’s bed. It is an internationa pariah, who’s only legitimacy comes by way of diplmatic cover from the US.
Yes, I hate Israel. I have no choice. Their is nothing to love.
You’re a whiny douche, yonira.
Oh yea? What have I made up, yonira?
You come on this blog and cry endlessly about the things we say, yet you rarely ever engage in the debate.
You’re intellectually (and apparently emotionally) incapable of dealing with the arguments posed here. Have you gotten used to living in your bubble, yonira?
Sorry, but not everyone has to LIKE Israel. Israel is a State. A political entity.
I don’t even mind the label, ‘Israel-hater’, because it’s so obviously childish that no reasonable person would give it credence.
You need to engage in debate instead of commenting on the commenting.
Your accusations are nothing more than histrionics.
Very well put Richard,
Yonira’s behavior is stereotypical of Israeli proapgnadists who find they are unabel to frame the debate or counter the arguments made. Truth and facts are not on their side, so they have one fo three options:
1. Agree.
2. Resoet to convoluted incoherent ramblings a la Witty.
3. Simply throw excrement in every direction in the vain attempt that they will be able to derail the debate.
I love it, and the truth is on your side huh? Like Israel caused the Haiti quake? is that truthful Shingo? or the Egyptian guard was killed by friendly fire, from an Egyptian sniper in Gaza?
I bet after the Tsunami you guys were blaming Israel for that too weren’t you?
#3. what debate Shingo? All that happens on this site is you guys pat each others backs and help each other believe the conspiracies. Its pretty ridiculous. Anytime someone shows any opposition to your thoughts its not debated, its first dismissed and then the insults fly.
You are all progressive robots. you guys are unable to argue your nonsense anywhere else but on sites which pander to your types of nonsense.
Who said Israel caused the earthquake?
Where did Richard say the sniper fire came from Gaza? I think he was just saying it could have been friendly-fire. How is that far-fetched?
Not even sure what this means. This blog exists. It’s content is provided by the authors, Phil and Adam as well as guest authors.
We – the commentators – do not write the blog articles, except for a few occasions (and the same authors are chosen, because of their unique perspective – i.e. a Palestinian or an Arab-American, Palestinian solidarity activist).
We come here because he value the information and the perspective is in line w/ our politics.
That just puts us on the same level as most human beings.
Actually, hasbaraniks are paid to troll blogs that are anti-Zionist and critical of Israel.
If Israeli news media had not covered that in the press, then you would accuse us of making it up because we arbitrarily hate Israel.
So I’m not sure what the point is in making that comment as if it distinguishes us from other commentators on other blogs. People gravitate to perspectives that speak to them.
Psychopathic God Israel doesn’t need submarines to patrol Gaza’s coastline. They manage to harass Gazan fishermen quite well within the 3 mile limit they allow them, with only small gunboats, armed with machine guns and high pressure water hoses. They also manage to ‘arrest’ peace convoys and supposed arms shipments rather further out.
The Israelis managed a good job of wrecking the USS Liberty in 1967, without major naval forces of their own, but they got a shock when Hizbollah nearly sunk an Israeli warship in 2006.
The submarines are designed to intimidate other prey; major Arab and Persian cities in the Mediterranean, Red Sea, and particularly the Gulf. The Israelis have no defencive interests in the Gulf, but they have plenty of aggressive ones. The subs are already armed with cruise missiles, with the usual ambiguity about nuclear bombs as well.
Gotta disagree about USS Liberty. Four fighter-bombers and a squadron of torpedo boats carried out a protracted attack against a converted merchant ship and managed not to sink it. From my somewhat professional viewpoint, the Israelis displayed an astounding degree of incompetence.
The ones who did a “good job” in that… incident were the US damage control crew.
Palestine and Jordan are notoriously prone to earthquakes, due their proximity to the Rift Valley.
The Dome of the Rock was built in 691AD, and Al Aqsa in 715AD. The Dome of the Holy Sepulchre was built in 333AD. All have survived whatever has been thrown at them over the past 1300+ years, including:
• Galilee earthquake of 363
• Golan earthquake of 749
• The Seventh Earthquake (8th century ~748 (disputed) – this may be the same as the Golan earthquake, as its date is solely reliant on Jewish religious calendars, and it levelled the same towns)
• 1202 Syria earthquake
• Near East earthquake of 1759
• Galilee earthquake of 1837
• 1927 Jericho earthquake
•
Retrieved from “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Earthquakes_in_the_Levant”
I think we may take it for granted that the nuclear stocks at Dimona are sufficiently ‘hardened’.
But Tel Aviv, built on sand, may not fare so well.
Again, I see the current situation moving slowly towards a cliff.
That would be the same situation that you keep insisting is the only one that can possibly succeed, right Witty?
Richard, you are so perceptive.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, with so many comments but in 1944, during the Warsaw Uprising, the Germans created a similar dam between Old Town and the Zoliborz in Warsaw, to block all supplies and flood the sewers.
link to warsawuprising.com
That is quite a stretch Sammy. Well not a stretch for Mondoweiss I guess, carry on…..
Its not a stretch at all. Dunno if you’ve realised it yet, but the actions of the Israelis are bizarrely like the Germans except in slow motion.
well I think Egypt is the one digging the tunnels.
I guess I am still working on the realization in my head, I guess they are both occupiers.
oops, flooding the tunnels
What do you folks feel would be a success for Gazans as a result of the last year’s and current conflicts?
What do you folks believe that Hamas wants to occur?
Israel to stop shooting and bombing Gazans willy nilly would be a nice start. Or were you not aware that the air strikes and incursions are still a monthly if not weekly event in Gaza?
Unlike you, Witty, the rest of us attribute human motivations to Hamas, and to Gazans in general. I think what Hamas wants is for Israelis to stop slaughtering their people, poisoning their land and treating them like shit. Maybe if you saw the Palestinians as human beings instead of vermin, Witty, you wouldn’t be so baffled and clueless all the time.
The Israeli way of genocide has always been twofold, the one way is direct attack, and the other way has been through clandestine agreement with their neighbors (whether it is the king of Jordan initially, or the Egyptians at the border). Both result in the threat of murder and annihilation, by the siege and this building of the new wall to cut off any form of survival, or direct attack like in Operation Cast Lead. When they have been called on one (direct attack as in the Operation Cast Lead), they go to the other which is murder by proxy. They think while the one can be assailed (direct attack), the other can slip by (indirect attack), and each portends death and destruction. It is way past time to break the back of Israel for its atrocious behavior, and to expose and do maximum damage to its accomplices.
…the same engineers who designed the levies and pump system of New Orleans.
Yeah, this won’t be another boondoggle for the United States that we can throw on the pile with the “Star Wars” program, the missile shield and trickle-down economics.